doughnut

[Masa]

Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.

"You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
(- omitted -)
"Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is doughnut. The day after
President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day
with talking doughnuts.


(L.Deighton - Berlin Game)

context: about "doughnut"
question: There must be a historical background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?

[Stan Brown]

"Berliner" in German is a donut. I don't know the German for "a
citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
spelled the same but pronounced differently.

Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while the
citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner", they were
nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the face of
Soviet threats on West Berlin.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Duggy]

On Feb 22, 1:02 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:17:07 -0800 (PST), Masa wrote:
>
> > Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>
> > "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
> > (- omitted -)
> > "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is doughnut. The day after
> > President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day
> > with talking doughnuts.
> > (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>
> > context: about "doughnut"
> > question: There must be a historical background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
> > Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?
>
> "Berliner" in German is a donut.  I don't know the German for "a
> citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>
> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while the
> citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner", they were
> nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the face of
> Soviet threats on West Berlin.

I thought it was "Berliner" but if you can make a joke about it, why
not.

===
= DUG.
===

[Steve Hayes]

According to the story, a person who lived in Berlin would say "Ich bin
Berliner", and, locally, "ein Berliner" as a "jelly" doughnut.

Perhaps one might have the same kind of thing if Kennedy (not Kenny) had gone
to Hamburg and said "Ich bin ein Hamburger", and people had understood him to
be saying that he was a meat patty in a bun.



--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Stan Brown wrote:
>
> Masa wrote:
>>
>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
>> (- omitted -)
>> "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
>> doughnut. The day after President Kenney made his famous
>> proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
>> doughnuts.
>> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>

British military historian, cookery writer, and novelist Len Deighton is
a goddamn liar and moron. No German cartoonist has ever ridiculed
Kennedy's famous words!

>
>> context: about "doughnut"
>> question: There must be a historical background about the way of his
>> putting about doughnut or somethig.
>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in
>> his speech there?
>

NO! For reliable and accurate details, read:

http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp

>
> "Berliner" in German is a donut.
>

Only in *some* regions. Everywhere else, it means "a male native or
citizen of Berlin."

>
> I don't know the German for "a citizen of Berlin",
>

"Berliner" (male), "Berlinerin" (female); also
"Berliner Bürger" (male), "Berliner Bürgerin" (fem.)

>
> but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>

Neither.

>
> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while
> the citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner",
>

They did NOT! JFK's pronunciation was very good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pjn5E6yOKo

and the meaning was clear and unambiguous. Only goddamn bloody morons
-- mostly Yanks and Brits -- are keeping that "jelly doughnut" idiocy alive.

>
> they were nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the
> face of Soviet threats on West Berlin.
>

Since Stan the Man has killfiled me, he won't see this post.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Duggy]

On Feb 22, 2:09 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:17:07 -0800 (PST), Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote:
> >Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>
> >"You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
> >(- omitted -)
> >"Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is doughnut. The day after
> >President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day
> >with talking doughnuts.
>
> >(L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>
> >context: about "doughnut"
> >question: There must be a historical background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
> >Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?
>
> According to the story, a person who lived in Berlin would say "Ich bin
> Berliner", and, locally,  "ein Berliner" as a "jelly" doughnut.
>
> Perhaps one might have the same kind of thing if Kennedy (not Kenny) had gone
> to Hamburg and said "Ich bin ein Hamburger", and people had understood him to
> be saying that he was a meat patty in a bun.

Urban myth. The speech was co-written by a Berliner.

===
= DUG.
===

[Dr Nick]

As your formatting shows, you're using Google to post. So why not use
it to search?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kennedy+doughnut

The first hit I get is Wikipedia, which quotes the very passage you are
asking about in a discussion of the origins of the belief!
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[Dr Nick]

Dr Nick <3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> writes:

> Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> writes:
>
>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
>> (- omitted -) "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A
>> Berliner is doughnut. The day after President Kenney made his famous
>> proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
>> doughnuts.
>>
>>
>> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>>
>> context: about "doughnut" question: There must be a historical
>> background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in
>> his speech there?
>
> As your formatting shows, you're using Google to post. So why not use
> it to search?
>
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kennedy+doughnut
>
> The first hit I get is Wikipedia, which quotes the very passage you are
> asking about in a discussion of the origins of the belief!

And, now I read the article, it also quotes Rey rebutting the whole
story!

[James Hogg]

Don't you think he put an unnatural stress on the "ein"?

> and the meaning was clear and unambiguous. Only goddamn bloody morons
> -- mostly Yanks and Brits -- are keeping that "jelly doughnut" idiocy alive.
>> they were nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the
>> face of Soviet threats on West Berlin.
>>
> Since Stan the Man has killfiled me, he won't see this post.

I recently discovered the original version of Neil Diamond's song,
popularized by The Monkees as "I'm a Believer":

Once upon a time two thousand years ago
Here's the proudest boast a man could make:
"Civis sum Romanus" -
Citizen of Rome.
Freedom in our time has a new home.

Now the proudest boast is "I'm a Berliner",
Not the kind of doughnut deep-fried.
Free men say: "Ish bin ein Bearleener,
I couldn't leave it if I tried."

--
James

[Django Cat]

Stan Brown wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:17:07 -0800 (PST), Masa wrote:
> >
> > Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
> >
> > "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
> > (- omitted -)
> > "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
> > doughnut. The day after President Kenney made his famous
> > proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
> > doughnuts. (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
> >
> > context: about "doughnut"
> > question: There must be a historical background about the way of
> > his putting about doughnut or somethig. Did Kenney say something
> > about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?
>
> "Berliner" in German is a donut. I don't know the German for "a
> citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>

It's the same word, pronounced the same way. Kennedy didn't make a
mistake. If he's made his speech in Frankfurt or Hamburg it would have
been mildly amusing for English speakers, as well as German speakers.
Or for AmE speakers, possibly Vienna.

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Steve Hayes wrote:

> > context: about "doughnut"
> > question: There must be a historical background about the way of
> > his putting about doughnut or somethig. Did Kenney say something
> > about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?
>
> According to the story, a person who lived in Berlin would say "Ich
> bin Berliner", and, locally, "ein Berliner" as a "jelly" doughnut.

These days 'ich bin eine currywurst' would more closely allow a true
born native Berliner to identify with the city's archetypal food item.

DC

--

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-22, Steve Hayes wrote:

> According to the story, a person who lived in Berlin would say "Ich bin
> Berliner", and, locally, "ein Berliner" as a "jelly" doughnut.
>
> Perhaps one might have the same kind of thing if Kennedy (not Kenny) had gone
> to Hamburg and said "Ich bin ein Hamburger", and people had understood him to
> be saying that he was a meat patty in a bun.

or if he'd gone to Vienna...


--
XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
use more.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-22, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:

> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> Masa wrote:

>>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in
>>> his speech there?
>>
> NO! For reliable and accurate details, read:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp

I especially like this bit:

...therefore, JFK was no more referring to himself as a pastry than
someone calling himself a "New Yorker" would have been understood
by Americans as styling himself to be a magazine or a town car.


What other cars does this work for? "Continental" is the only one I
can think of off-hand.


--
When you look at a photograph of the earth you don't see any
borders. That realization is where our hope as a planet lies.
[Graham Nash]

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:28:43 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:

This is discussed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner#Jelly_doughnut_misconception

There is a misconception that Kennedy made a risible error by saying
Ich bin ein Berliner (emphasis added): the claim is made that
Kennedy referred to himself not as a "citizen of Berlin", but as a
"jelly donut" (US) or "jam doughnut" (UK), known in parts of Germany
as a "Berliner".[7][8] Kennedy should, supposedly, have said Ich bin
Berliner to mean "I am a person from Berlin", and that adding the
indefinite article ein to his statement implied he was a non-human
Berliner, thus, "I am a jelly doughnut".[9] However, the indefinite
article ein is omitted when speaking of an individual's profession
or residence but is necessary when speaking in a figurative sense as
Kennedy did. Since the president was not literally from Berlin but
only declaring his solidarity with its citizens, "Ich bin Berliner"
would not have been appropriate.[9]

An op-ed from The New York Times demonstrates the misconception:

It's worth recalling, again, President John F. Kennedy's use of
a German phrase while standing before the Berlin Wall. It would
be great, his wordsmiths thought, for him to declare himself a
symbolic citizen of Berlin. Hence, Ich bin ein Berliner. What
they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that
such citizens never refer to themselves as 'Berliners.' They
reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at
breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the
sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the
residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed,
literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."

— William J. Miller, "I Am a Jelly-Filled Doughnut",
The New York Times, April 30, 1988[10]

The section goes on to discuss relevant food terminology.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Katy Jennison]

On 22/02/2012 10:34, Django Cat wrote:

> These days 'ich bin eine currywurst' would more closely allow a true
> born native Berliner to identify with the city's archetypal food item.
>

I Googled that. It looks repulsive. Now next time I visit Germany I'll
be fearing the wurst.

--
Katy Jennison

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:19:58 +0000, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> Kennedy should, supposedly, have said Ich bin
> Berliner to mean "I am a person from Berlin", and that adding the
> indefinite article ein to his statement implied he was a non-human
> Berliner, thus, "I am a jelly doughnut".[9]

That reminds me of Talleyrand's wife, the former Catherine Grand, and
known as the stupidest woman in France (though she was smart enough
to land Talleyrand).

She was from India, or had lived there, and was quoted as saying,
instead of "Je suis de l'Inde" (I am from India) "Je suis d'Inde"
(pronounced as "je suis dinde", I am a goose).

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:02:28 -0500, Stan Brown wrote:
>
> "Berliner" in German is a donut. I don't know the German for "a
> citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>
> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while the
> citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner", they were
> nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the face of
> Soviet threats on West Berlin.

Thanks to those who corrected my misconception about this. I lived
through that era, and it never occurred to me that the oft-repeated
"jelly donut" story might be a fabrication.

[the Omrud]

I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a motorway
service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a few years ago.
It wasn't wholly disgusting.

--
David

[Django Cat]

Adam Funk wrote:

> On 2012-02-22, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>
> > Stan Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> Masa wrote:
>
> >>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin
> in >>> his speech there?
> > >
> > NO! For reliable and accurate details, read:
> >
> > http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp
>
> I especially like this bit:
>
> ...therefore, JFK was no more referring to himself as a pastry than
> someone calling himself a "New Yorker" would have been understood
> by Americans as styling himself to be a magazine or a town car.
>
>
> What other cars does this work for? "Continental" is the only one I
> can think of off-hand.

How about 'I voted for Ford' or 'I voted for Lincoln'?

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Stan Brown wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:19:58 +0000, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> > Kennedy should, supposedly, have said Ich bin
> > Berliner to mean "I am a person from Berlin", and that adding
> > the indefinite article ein to his statement implied he was a
> > non-human Berliner, thus, "I am a jelly doughnut".[9]
>
> That reminds me of Talleyrand's wife, the former Catherine Grand, and
> known as the stupidest woman in France (though she was smart enough
> to land Talleyrand).
>
> She was from India, or had lived there, and was quoted as saying,
> instead of "Je suis de l'Inde" (I am from India) "Je suis d'Inde"
> (pronounced as "je suis dinde", I am a goose).

Then there's

'Bouillabaisse a toute heure'
'Really? How do I get to meet Mlle Bouilla?'

Which was explained to me at length by a Belgian friend.

DC
--

[Django Cat]

Did you check the currywurst museum, Katy?
http://www.currywurstmuseum.de/en/ I tried a currywurst in Berlin once
- that was enough.

DC

--

[Leslie Danks]

Here's a recipe for the sauce:

<quote>
The best Schnell-Imbisse (fast-food stalls) make their own currywurst
sauce, essentially a curry powder–flavored ketchup. Heat 2 tbsp. canola
oil in a saucepan over medium heat. Add 1 finely chopped large yellow
onion; cook until soft, 8–10 minutes. Add 2 tbsp. curry powder and 1 tbsp.
hot paprika; cook for 1 minute more. Using hands, crush 2 cups whole
peeled canned tomatoes (with juice) into pan. Add 1⁄2 cup sugar, 1⁄4 cup
red wine vinegar, and salt to taste; stir well. Increase heat to high;
bring to a boil. Reduce heat to medium-low and simmer, stirring
occasionally, until thickened, about 25 minutes. Purée sauce in a blender
until smooth. Strain sauce through a sieve. Serve hot over sausage. Makes
about 1 1⁄2 cups.
</quote>

<http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Currywurst-Sauce>

Don't spill it on your shoes.

--
Les
(BrE)

[the Omrud]

On 22/02/2012 14:22, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:19:58 +0000, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>> Kennedy should, supposedly, have said Ich bin
>> Berliner to mean "I am a person from Berlin", and that adding the
>> indefinite article ein to his statement implied he was a non-human
>> Berliner, thus, "I am a jelly doughnut".[9]
>
> That reminds me of Talleyrand's wife, the former Catherine Grand, and
> known as the stupidest woman in France (though she was smart enough
> to land Talleyrand).
>
> She was from India, or had lived there, and was quoted as saying,
> instead of "Je suis de l'Inde" (I am from India) "Je suis d'Inde"
> (pronounced as "je suis dinde", I am a goose).

"turkey", innit, and it's not all that wrong: the word "dinde"
originates from "poule d'Inde"; that is: "Indian poultry". The bird
came from Mexico of course, but the name exhibits the same confusion as
"West Indies".

Goose is "oie" (a word I always find almost impossible to spell).

--
David

[Katy Jennison]

Good grief. Wurds fail me.

They've even imported a greengrocer's apostrophe.

--
Katy Jennison

[Django Cat]

I was reading this this morning:

http://tinyurl.com/6joc5kp

DC

--

[Jack Campin]

> That reminds me of Talleyrand's wife, the former Catherine Grand, and
> known as the stupidest woman in France (though she was smart enough
> to land Talleyrand).
> She was from India, or had lived there, and was quoted as saying,
> instead of "Je suis de l'Inde" (I am from India) "Je suis d'Inde"
> (pronounced as "je suis dinde", I am a goose).

"Dinde" means "turkey". Does it have the same connotations in French
that "turkey" does in American English?

In Turkish, "turkey" is "hindi" because of the same misapprehension.
And "hindi" can mean "fool" as "turkey" does in USEng (though the
usage isn't as common). So Turks can get to laugh at the Indians
for coming from Hindistan (their word for Bharat) in much the same
way as (some) Americans find "Turkey" funny as the name for a country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Christian Weisgerber]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> > context: about "doughnut"
> > question: There must be a historical background about the way of his
> putting about doughnut or somethig.
> > Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in
> his speech there?
>
> "Berliner" in German is a donut. I don't know the German for "a
> citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
> spelled the same but pronounced differently.

Nonsense.

"Berliner" is an inhabitant of Berlin. As a secondary meaning, it
can also (regionally, not in Berlin) refer to a jelly donut. This
isn't unusual in German. Here are some names of nationalities/
ethnicities that can also refer to something else:

Amerikaner: another kind of pastry
Kanadier: a type of canoe
Engländer: a type of wrench
Franzose: another type of wrench
Araber: a kind of horse
Norweger: an Icelandic sweater

Inhabitants of cities:

Pariser: a condom
Römer: a type of wine glass

Also a large number of foods: Wiener, Kassler, Lyoner, Limburger,
Tilsiter, lots of other cheeses, etc.

In practice, there aren't any ambiguities. The respective meanings
are obvious from context. By and large, people don't even bother
to build jokes around them.

> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while the
> citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner", they were
> nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the face of
> Soviet threats on West Berlin.

Nobody made fun of him, nobody misunderstood him, the whole notion
is entirely absurd.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
> ...therefore, JFK was no more referring to himself as a pastry than
> someone calling himself a "New Yorker" would have been understood
> by Americans as styling himself to be a magazine or a town car.
>
>What other cars does this work for? "Continental" is the only one I
>can think of off-hand.

Cherokee?...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
>On 2012-02-22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> According to the story, a person who lived in Berlin would say "Ich bin
>> Berliner", and, locally, "ein Berliner" as a "jelly" doughnut.
>>
>> Perhaps one might have the same kind of thing if Kennedy (not Kenny) had gone
>> to Hamburg and said "Ich bin ein Hamburger", and people had understood him to
>> be saying that he was a meat patty in a bun.
>
>or if he'd gone to Vienna...

There is no truth to the rumor that Viennese pop star Falco once visited
Copenhagen and sang "Rock Me, I'm a Danish"....r

[R H Draney]

Leslie Danks filted:

>
>Here's a recipe for the sauce:
>
><quote>
>The best Schnell-Imbisse (fast-food stalls) make their own currywurst
>sauce, essentially a curry powder–flavored ketchup. Heat 2 tbsp. canola
>oil in a saucepan over medium heat. Add 1 finely chopped large yellow
>onion; cook until soft, 8–10 minutes. Add 2 tbsp. curry powder and 1 tbsp.
>hot paprika; cook for 1 minute more. Using hands, crush 2 cups whole
>peeled canned tomatoes (with juice) into pan. Add 1⁄2 cup sugar, 1⁄4 cup
>red wine vinegar, and salt to taste; stir well. Increase heat to high;
>bring to a boil. Reduce heat to medium-low and simmer, stirring
>occasionally, until thickened, about 25 minutes. Purée sauce in a blender
>until smooth. Strain sauce through a sieve. Serve hot over sausage. Makes
>about 1 1⁄2 cups.
></quote>
>
><http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Currywurst-Sauce>
>
>Don't spill it on your shoes.

There's the sauce taken care of; the wurst is yet to come....r

[Pierre Jelenc]

Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> "Dinde" means "turkey". Does it have the same connotations in French
> that "turkey" does in American English?

Kind of. "Dinde" is a stupid woman, while "dindon" is a stupid and
conceited man. Neither has the "showbiz flop" meaning of "turkey"; that
would be "un four".

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 09:24:42 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:02:28 -0500, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> "Berliner" in German is a donut. I don't know the German for "a
>> citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
>> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>>
>> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while the
>> citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner", they were
>> nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the face of
>> Soviet threats on West Berlin.
>
>Thanks to those who corrected my misconception about this. I lived
>through that era, and it never occurred to me that the oft-repeated
>"jelly donut" story might be a fabrication.

It seems from the explanation in Wikipedia that "ich bin ein Berliner"
can be interpreted in two different ways:

literally: "I am a jelly donut"
or
figuratively: "I am a person of Berlin" - an expression of solidarity
similar to those following 9/11 "We are all Americans", "Siamo tutti
americani", "Nous Somme Tous Americains", etc.

[Kalmia]

On Feb 21, 9:17 pm, Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote:
> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>
> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
> (- omitted -)
> "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is doughnut. The day after
> President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day
> with talking doughnuts.
>
> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>

> context: about "doughnut"
> question: There must be a historical background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?

No.

I know a fellow from Hamburg who came to the US and had never heard of
the edible hamburger.

A German friend translated that JFK quote as "I am a pancake."

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:08:20 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:

>Leslie Danks wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:43:14 +0000, the Omrud wrote:
>>
>> > On 22/02/2012 14:14, Katy Jennison wrote:
>> >> On 22/02/2012 10:34, Django Cat wrote:
>> > >
>> >>> These days 'ich bin eine currywurst' would more closely allow a
>> true >>> born native Berliner to identify with the city's archetypal
>> food item.
>> > >
>> >> I Googled that. It looks repulsive. Now next time I visit Germany
>> I'll >> be fearing the wurst.
>> >
>> > I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a
>> > motorway service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a
>> > few years ago. It wasn't wholly disgusting.
>>
>> Here's a recipe for the sauce:
>>
>> <quote>
>> The best Schnell-Imbisse (fast-food stalls) make their own currywurst
>> sauce, essentially a curry powder–flavored ketchup. Heat 2 tbsp.
>> canola oil in a saucepan over medium heat. Add 1 finely chopped large
>> yellow onion; cook until soft, 8–10 minutes. Add 2 tbsp. curry
>> powder and 1 tbsp. hot paprika; cook for 1 minute more. Using hands,
>> crush 2 cups whole peeled canned tomatoes (with juice) into pan. Add

>> 1?2 cup sugar, 1?4 cup red wine vinegar, and salt to taste; stir

>> well. Increase heat to high; bring to a boil. Reduce heat to
>> medium-low and simmer, stirring occasionally, until thickened, about
>> 25 minutes. Purée sauce in a blender until smooth. Strain sauce

>> through a sieve. Serve hot over sausage. Makes about 1 1?2 cups.

>> </quote>
>>
>> <http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Currywurst-Sauce>
>>
>> Don't spill it on your shoes.
>
>I was reading this this morning:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/6joc5kp
>

Wonderful. Not so much Kismot as Kismet.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

I've looked but couldn't find one. There is a potential one in a
handwritten visitors' book entry "Wish Currywurst Museum's staffs all
the best". The error there appears to be the plurals "staffs".

[Christian Weisgerber]

Django Cat <nota...@address.com> wrote:

> 'Bouillabaisse a toute heure'
> 'Really? How do I get to meet Mlle Bouilla?'
>
> Which was explained to me at length by a Belgian friend.

Hmm. You'd think French speakers were sensitive to the pronunciation
difference between "baiser" and "baisser".

[Django Cat]

Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Django Cat <nota...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > 'Bouillabaisse a toute heure'
> > 'Really? How do I get to meet Mlle Bouilla?'
> >
> > Which was explained to me at length by a Belgian friend.
>
> Hmm. You'd think French speakers were sensitive to the pronunciation
> difference between "baiser" and "baisser".

That's the Belgians for you.

DC

--

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-22, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Django Cat <nota...@address.com> wrote:
>
>> 'Bouillabaisse a toute heure'
>> 'Really? How do I get to meet Mlle Bouilla?'
>>
>> Which was explained to me at length by a Belgian friend.
>
> Hmm. You'd think French speakers were sensitive to the pronunciation
> difference between "baiser" and "baisser".

I think so too, but I guess it's close enough for an approximate pun.
(Maybe it's closer in certain accents?)


--
Bob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele]

[Mike Lyle]

On 22 Feb 2012 10:07:04 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
wrote:

>Leslie Danks filted:
>>
>>Here's a recipe for the sauce:
>>
>><quote>
>>The best Schnell-Imbisse (fast-food stalls) make their own currywurst

>>sauce, essentially a curry powder–flavored ketchup. Heat 2 tbsp. canola

>>oil in a saucepan over medium heat. Add 1 finely chopped large yellow

>>onion; cook until soft, 8–10 minutes. Add 2 tbsp. curry powder and 1 tbsp.

>>hot paprika; cook for 1 minute more. Using hands, crush 2 cups whole

>>peeled canned tomatoes (with juice) into pan. Add 1â?„2 cup sugar, 1â?„4 cup

>>red wine vinegar, and salt to taste; stir well. Increase heat to high;
>>bring to a boil. Reduce heat to medium-low and simmer, stirring

>>occasionally, until thickened, about 25 minutes. Purée sauce in a blender

>>until smooth. Strain sauce through a sieve. Serve hot over sausage. Makes

>>about 1 1â?„2 cups.

>></quote>
>>
>><http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/Currywurst-Sauce>
>>
>>Don't spill it on your shoes.
>
>There's the sauce taken care of; the wurst is yet to come....r

Are you trying to curry flavour?

Note: I always seed tomatoes if I'm going to put them through a
blender. No problem when the seeds are intact, but when pulverised, to
my taste they give an unpleasant tang to gazpacho; but perhaps it
doesn't come through in a strong curry sauce.

--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

No doubt playing on "Berliner Pfankuchen". Don't give me the one with
mustard in it. (Linguistic hostage-to-fortune indulgence, please.)

--
Mike.

[Robin Bignall]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:59:27 +0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Tres amusant, oie oie oie (pronounced wa wa wa).
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England

[Leslie Danks]

<sanft>"Pfannkuchen"</sanft>

Here is yet another refutation of the story:

<http://www.iaas.uni-bremen.de/sprachblog/2008/06/25/ich-bin-kein-
pfannkuchen/>

<http://tinyurl.com/64a9eb>

It's mostly in German, but the essence is that whether one says "Ich bin
Berliner" or "Ich bin ein Berliner" depends on context, the line between
the two is not sharp, and Kennedy's choice of "ein Berliner" was correct.

<quote>
Die Ergebnisse sind eindeutig, was „typische“ und „gebürtige“ Einwohner
angeht: erstere bevorzugen die Variante mit Artikel, letztere die ohne.
Das stützt meine Vermutung. Interessant ist aber auch, dass bei den
„zugezogenen“ Einwohnern keine der beiden Varianten klar bevorzugt wird.
Das könnte dafür sprechen, dass Zugezogene sich alternativ als zugehörig
über etablierte Mitgliedschaft oder als zugehörig über gemeinsame
Eigenschaften betrachten.

Auf jeden Fall aber hat Kennedy, wie Jennings andeutet, genau die richtige
Variante gewählt, denn ihm ging es tatsächlich darum, eine typische
Berliner Eigenschaft hervorzuheben, über die sich jeder Mensch auf der
Welt als zur Klasse der Berliner zugehörig definieren könne. Hier ist das
berühmte Zitat im Zusammenhang:

<translate>
The results are clear regarding "typical" and "native born" inhabitants:
the former prefer the version with the article, the latter without. [...]
It is also interesting that people who have moved into the area have no
clear preference for one version over the other. This might indicate that
they regard themselves either as "belonging" due to established
membership, or "belonging" due to shared characteristics.

In any case, Kennedy [...] chose exactly the right version, because he
intended to emphasise a typical characteristic which everyone in the world
could define as belonging to the class of Berliners. [...]
</translate>
</quote>

--
Les
(BrE)

[Mike Lyle]

On 22 Feb 2012 21:57:05 GMT, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:28:48 +0000, Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:36:23 -0800 (PST), Kalmia
>> <tween...@mypacks.net> wrote:

[...]r.

>>>
>>>A German friend translated that JFK quote as "I am a pancake."
>>
>> No doubt playing on "Berliner Pfankuchen". Don't give me the one with
>> mustard in it. (Linguistic hostage-to-fortune indulgence, please.)
>
><sanft>"Pfannkuchen"</sanft>
>

Oh, well, I tried. Thanks.
[...]
--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:45:24 +0000, Robin Bignall
<docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:59:27 +0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>wrote:

[...]

>>
>>Goose is "oie" (a word I always find almost impossible to spell).
>
>Tres amusant, oie oie oie (pronounced wa wa wa).

Alors, c'est toi, Idéfix?

--
Mike.

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:43:14 +0000, the Omrud wrote:

> I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a motorway
> service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a few years ago.
> It wasn't wholly disgusting.

LOL -- let's put that on a billboard.

"Buy Thingummy's wurst! It's not wholly disgusting!"

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

You're right: my /Petit Larousse illustré/ (a mere 1800 pages
constitutes "petit") defines it as a female turkey.

The biographer was writing in BrE, I believe, so "stupid person":
would be translated by sense as "goose" even though a literal
translation would of course be "turkey". In AmE, "turkey" would
probably feel more natural than goose.

> Goose is "oie" (a word I always find almost impossible to spell).

It's "Oye" in Ravel's composition; I don't know whether one form is
archaic or both are current.

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:15:09 +0000, Jack Campin wrote:
> "Dinde" means "turkey". Does it have the same connotations in French
> that "turkey" does in American English?

I think it must have, or must have had in early 19h-century Paris;
otherwise there'd be no point to the story.

[Pierre Jelenc]

Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
> It seems from the explanation in Wikipedia that "ich bin ein Berliner"
> can be interpreted in two different ways:
>
> literally: "I am a jelly donut"
> or
> figuratively: "I am a person of Berlin"

They are both figurative, since he was neither. In fact, since pastries do
not ever speak, while he actually was in Berlin at the time, the first is
considerably more figurative than the second!

[Peter Moylan]

Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:

> "Berliner" (male), "Berlinerin" (female); also
> "Berliner Bürger" (male), "Berliner Bürgerin" (fem.)

And here was I thinking that a Berliner Bürger was a sausage onna bun.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

I've known Belgians, and they make the distinction quite clearly. (I
once had some embarrassment in Belgium by mixing up "dessert" and "desert".)

As always, though, we don't quibble when there's a joke at stake.

I'm reminded of the one that depends on mishearing "Quelle pétulance !"
(Rey will figure that out immediately, and the rest of you won't care.)

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/02/12 11:02 AM, Stan Brown wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:17:07 -0800 (PST), Masa wrote:
>>
>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
>> (- omitted -)
>> "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is doughnut. The day after
>> President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day
>> with talking doughnuts.
>> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>>
>> context: about "doughnut"
>> question: There must be a historical background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?
>

> "Berliner" in German is a donut.

Not, however, in Berlin where they call them "Pfannekuchen". To say "I'm
a Berliner" in German, you leave out the "ein".

--
Robert Bannister

[Skitt]

Stan Brown wrote:
> the Omrud wrote:

>> Stan Brown wrote:

>>> That reminds me of Talleyrand's wife, the former Catherine Grand, and
>>> known as the stupidest woman in France (though she was smart enough
>>> to land Talleyrand).
>>>
>>> She was from India, or had lived there, and was quoted as saying,
>>> instead of "Je suis de l'Inde" (I am from India) "Je suis d'Inde"
>>> (pronounced as "je suis dinde", I am a goose).
>>
>> "turkey", innit, and it's not all that wrong: the word "dinde"
>> originates from "poule d'Inde"; that is: "Indian poultry". The bird
>> came from Mexico of course, but the name exhibits the same confusion as
>> "West Indies".
>
> You're right: my /Petit Larousse illustré/ (a mere 1800 pages
> constitutes "petit") defines it as a female turkey.
>
> The biographer was writing in BrE, I believe, so "stupid person":
> would be translated by sense as "goose" even though a literal
> translation would of course be "turkey". In AmE, "turkey" would
> probably feel more natural than goose.

Not if we're talking about a silly goose.

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/02/12 12:38 PM, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:

> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> Masa wrote:
>>>
>>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>>
>>> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
>>> (- omitted -)
>>> "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
>>> doughnut. The day after President Kenney made his famous
>>> proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
>>> doughnuts.
>>> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>>

> British military historian, cookery writer, and novelist Len Deighton is
> a goddamn liar and moron. No German cartoonist has ever ridiculed
> Kennedy's famous words!

>>
>>> context: about "doughnut"
>>> question: There must be a historical background about the way of his
>>> putting about doughnut or somethig.
>>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in
>>> his speech there?
>>

> NO! For reliable and accurate details, read:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp

>>
>> "Berliner" in German is a donut.
>>

> Only in *some* regions. Everywhere else, it means "a male native or
> citizen of Berlin."

>>
>> I don't know the German for "a citizen of Berlin",
>>

> "Berliner" (male), "Berlinerin" (female); also
> "Berliner Bürger" (male), "Berliner Bürgerin" (fem.)
>>

>> but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
>> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>>

> Neither.

>>
>> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while
>> the citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner",
>>

> They did NOT! JFK's pronunciation was very good:

I was visiting Berlin again not long after that speech and everybody
thought Kennedy was the best. Not one Berliner made a joke about it.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pjn5E6yOKo
>
> Don't you think he put an unnatural stress on the "ein"?
>
>> and the meaning was clear and unambiguous. Only goddamn bloody morons
>> -- mostly Yanks and Brits -- are keeping that "jelly doughnut" idiocy alive.

>>> they were nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the
>>> face of Soviet threats on West Berlin.
>>>

>> Since Stan the Man has killfiled me, he won't see this post.
>
> I recently discovered the original version of Neil Diamond's song,
> popularized by The Monkees as "I'm a Believer":
>
> Once upon a time two thousand years ago
> Here's the proudest boast a man could make:
> "Civis sum Romanus" -
> Citizen of Rome.
> Freedom in our time has a new home.
>
> Now the proudest boast is "I'm a Berliner",
> Not the kind of doughnut deep-fried.
> Free men say: "Ish bin ein Bearleener,
> I couldn't leave it if I tried."
>

Pity the writer didn't choose "ick" rather than "ish", as that would be
closer to Berlin dialect, although educated Berliners don't pronounce
"ich" in either of those ways.

--
Robert Bannister

[Duggy]

Not necessarily.

===
= DUG.
===

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/02/12 10:24 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:02:28 -0500, Stan Brown wrote:
>>

>> "Berliner" in German is a donut. I don't know the German for "a
>> citizen of Berlin", but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's

>> spelled the same but pronounced differently.
>>

>> Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while the

>> citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner", they were

>> nonetheless grateful for his pledge of solidarity in the face of
>> Soviet threats on West Berlin.
>

> Thanks to those who corrected my misconception about this. I lived
> through that era, and it never occurred to me that the oft-repeated
> "jelly donut" story might be a fabrication.
>

I had never met anyone who used "Berliner" for a doughnut until I went
to South Australia.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/02/12 12:09 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:17:07 -0800 (PST), Masa<aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote:
>
>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
>> (- omitted -)
>> "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is doughnut. The day after
>> President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day
>> with talking doughnuts.
>>
>>
>> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>>
>> context: about "doughnut"
>> question: There must be a historical background about the way of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in his speech there?
>

> According to the story, a person who lived in Berlin would say "Ich bin
> Berliner", and, locally, "ein Berliner" as a "jelly" doughnut.

"Ich bin Berliner" is correct, but "Berliner" for doughnut is not used
in Berlin.


--
Robert Bannister

[Skitt]

Robert Bannister wrote:

> James Hogg wrote:

>> I recently discovered the original version of Neil Diamond's song,
>> popularized by The Monkees as "I'm a Believer":
>>
>> Once upon a time two thousand years ago
>> Here's the proudest boast a man could make:
>> "Civis sum Romanus" -
>> Citizen of Rome.
>> Freedom in our time has a new home.
>>
>> Now the proudest boast is "I'm a Berliner",
>> Not the kind of doughnut deep-fried.
>> Free men say: "Ish bin ein Bearleener,
>> I couldn't leave it if I tried."
>>
>
> Pity the writer didn't choose "ick" rather than "ish", as that would be
> closer to Berlin dialect, although educated Berliners don't pronounce
> "ich" in either of those ways.
>

I went to school in Thueringen with Dieter, a guy from Berlin, and he
definitely always said "ick". That was in late 1944.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Django Cat wrote:
[...]

> I tried a currywurst in Berlin once - that was enough.
>

Three Brits (Katy, David, Django Cat) badmouthing non-English *food*.

Funny.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

James Hogg wrote:
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>
>> JFK's pronunciation was very good:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pjn5E6yOKo
>
> Don't you think he put an unnatural stress on the "ein"?
>

Not really. Had he said, "Ich bin *EIN* Berliner," the strongly
stressed "EIN" would have been wrong: "I am *ONE* (i.e., not two) Berliner."

[Duggy]

Point is: No one in the crowd acted like he made a mistake.

===
= DUG.
===

[James Hogg]

No, they loved him for that speech.

--
James

[the Omrud]

On 23/02/2012 04:43, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> Django Cat wrote:
> [...]
>> I tried a currywurst in Berlin once - that was enough.
>>
> Three Brits (Katy, David, Django Cat) badmouthing non-English *food*.
>
> Funny.

Why did only three Brits badmouth the currywurst? Because the others
haven't eaten one yet,

--
David

[Django Cat]

Stan Brown wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:43:14 +0000, the Omrud wrote:
>
> > I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a
> > motorway service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a
> > few years ago. It wasn't wholly disgusting.
>
> LOL -- let's put that on a billboard.
>
> "Buy Thingummy's wurst! It's not wholly disgusting!"

My suggestion for my home city's motto:

'Southampton: at least it's not Portsmouth'.

DC

--

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:40:56 +0000 (UTC), rc...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc)
wrote:

>Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>>
>> It seems from the explanation in Wikipedia that "ich bin ein Berliner"
>> can be interpreted in two different ways:
>>
>> literally: "I am a jelly donut"
>> or
>> figuratively: "I am a person of Berlin"
>
>They are both figurative, since he was neither. In fact, since pastries do
>not ever speak, while he actually was in Berlin at the time, the first is
>considerably more figurative than the second!
>

What I had in mind, but didn't say, was that "I am a jelly donut" taken
literally is meaningless. I would not interpret "I am a jelly donut"
figuratively unless the context made very clear that the speaker was
using it as a metaphor.

So with both the literal and figurative meanings of the jelly donut
version ruled out the natural interpretation is "I am a person of
Berlin".

ObSpelling: I prefer the original spelling, "doughnut".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-23, Peter Moylan wrote:

> As always, though, we don't quibble when there's a joke at stake.
>
> I'm reminded of the one that depends on mishearing "Quelle pétulance !"
> (Rey will figure that out immediately, and the rest of you won't care.)

Ha! I'll try to remember that one.


--
Back off, man. I'm a scientist. [Dr Peter Venkman]

[David Dyer-Bennet]

When Missouri was looking for a new state motto some years (or decades)
back, I wanted to suggest "Missouri loves company".
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[Django Cat]

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
> > Stan Brown wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:43:14 +0000, the Omrud wrote:
> >>
> >> > I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a
> >> > motorway service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a
> >> > few years ago. It wasn't wholly disgusting.
> >>
> >> LOL -- let's put that on a billboard.
> >>
> >> "Buy Thingummy's wurst! It's not wholly disgusting!"
> >
> > My suggestion for my home city's motto:
> >
> > 'Southampton: at least it's not Portsmouth'.
>
> When Missouri was looking for a new state motto some years (or
> decades) back, I wanted to suggest "Missouri loves company".

Excellent!

DC

--

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 2/22/2012 8:32 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> Pity the writer didn't choose "ick" rather than "ish", as that would be
> closer to Berlin dialect, although educated Berliners don't pronounce
> "ich" in either of those ways.

Pity the reader didn't recognize the phonetic notation and context from
Kennedy's speech.

ŹR

[Duggy]

On Feb 24, 1:25 am, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:

> "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> writes:
> > Stan Brown wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:43:14 +0000, the Omrud wrote:
>
> >> > I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a
> >> > motorway service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a
> >> > few years ago.  It wasn't wholly disgusting.
>
> >> LOL -- let's put that on a billboard.
>
> >> "Buy Thingummy's wurst!  It's not wholly disgusting!"
>
> > My suggestion for my home city's motto:
>
> > 'Southampton: at least it's not Portsmouth'.
>
> When Missouri was looking for a new state motto some years (or decades)
> back, I wanted to suggest "Missouri loves company".

Places are always looking for something to put on tourism ads...

===
= DUG.
===

[Joe Fineman]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

> When Missouri was looking for a new state motto some years (or
> decades) back, I wanted to suggest "Missouri loves company".

"Kansas City, Kansas shows that even Kansas needn't be
Missourible." -- Ogden Nash
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: The greater the trust, the greater the temptation to abuse :||
||: it. :||

[Django Cat]

Robert Bannister wrote:

> On 22/02/12 12:38 PM, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> > Stan Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > Masa wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
> > > >
> > > > "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old
> > > > town." (- omitted -)
> > > > "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
> > > > doughnut. The day after President Kenney made his famous
> > > > proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
> > > > doughnuts.
> > > > (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
> > >
> > British military historian, cookery writer, and novelist Len
> > Deighton is a goddamn liar and moron. No German cartoonist has ever
> > ridiculed Kennedy's famous words!
> > >
> > > > context: about "doughnut"
> > > > question: There must be a historical background about the way
> > > > of his putting about doughnut or somethig.
> > > > Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with
> > > > Berlin in his speech there?
> > >
> > NO! For reliable and accurate details, read:
> >
> > http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp
> > >
> > > "Berliner" in German is a donut.
> > >

> > Only in some regions. Everywhere else, it means "a male native or

> > citizen of Berlin."
> > >
> > > I don't know the German for "a citizen of Berlin",
> > >
> > "Berliner" (male), "Berlinerin" (female); also
> > "Berliner Bürger" (male), "Berliner Bürgerin" (fem.)
> > >
> > > but either it's different from "Berliner" or it's
> > > spelled the same but pronounced differently.
> > >
> > Neither.
> > >
> > > Kennedy was speaking during one of the Berlin crises, and while
> > > the citizens may have made fun of his "ich bin ein Berliner",
> > >
> > They did NOT! JFK's pronunciation was very good:
>
> I was visiting Berlin again not long after that speech and everybody
> thought Kennedy was the best. Not one Berliner made a joke about it.

Surely because, whether or not it's true about the bun or doughnut or
pancake or whatever, for a Berliner to pretend there was any potential
ambiguity here would have been puerile: Kennedy is in Berlin - he is
expressing solidarity with the citizens as the blockade ends and the
wall goes up. He uses a phrase that almost certainly means 'I am one of
you', but, if you want to make jokes suitable for 8 year olds, could
mean 'I am a jammy doughnut'. Which one did he mean? 'Verschwende Sie
nicht meine Zeit - don't waste my time'. I'm inclined to think any
potential humour only actually comes from this if you aren't a German
speaker and have to have it explained.

I mean how could this work in English... hmm...

‘My Mum gave me a pink and yellow striped jersey'
'You've got a cow with pink and yellow stripes, dude? Awesome!' [Breaks
out in spontaneous acne]
'Yeah, right'.

Better examples anticipated with pleasure.

DC


--

[Robert Bannister]

OK, but I wouldn't.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 23/02/12 12:43 PM, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> Django Cat wrote:
> [...]
>> I tried a currywurst in Berlin once - that was enough.
>>
> Three Brits (Katy, David, Django Cat) badmouthing non-English *food*.
>
> Funny.
>

All the same, I've heard Germans being disparaging about the Berliner
Curry-Würste, and a lot of North Germans saying nasty things about the
southern Weisswürste. I like both these days, but back when I was 20, I
like Curry-Wurst a lot more than I do now and I despised the tasty
Weisswurst.

--
Robert Bannister

[John Varela]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:25:36 UTC, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
wrote:

> "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> writes:
>
> > Stan Brown wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:43:14 +0000, the Omrud wrote:
> >>
> >> > I'd heard so much about the wurst that I sampled a portion at a
> >> > motorway service station returning to Frankfurt from Nekarsulm a
> >> > few years ago. It wasn't wholly disgusting.
> >>
> >> LOL -- let's put that on a billboard.
> >>
> >> "Buy Thingummy's wurst! It's not wholly disgusting!"
> >
> > My suggestion for my home city's motto:
> >
> > 'Southampton: at least it's not Portsmouth'.
>
> When Missouri was looking for a new state motto some years (or decades)
> back, I wanted to suggest "Missouri loves company".

I had a college friend from Erie, Pennsylvania. He called it "Dreary
Erie, the mistake by the lake."

--
John Varela

[Skitt]

Robert Bannister wrote:

> Stan Brown wrote:
>> Masa wrote:

>>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>>
>>> "You're berlinerisch, Bernard. You grew up in this funny old town."
>>> (- omitted -)
>>> "Ich bin ein Berliner," I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
>>> doughnut. The day after
>>> President Kenney made his famous proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had
>>> a field day
>>> with talking doughnuts.
>>> (L.Deighton - Berlin Game)
>>>
>>> context: about "doughnut"
>>> question: There must be a historical background about the way of his
>>> putting about doughnut or somethig.
>>> Did Kenney say something about doughnut in connection with Berlin in
>>> his speech there?
>>
>> "Berliner" in German is a donut.
>
> Not, however, in Berlin where they call them "Pfannekuchen". To say "I'm
> a Berliner" in German, you leave out the "ein".
>

Do they really call them Pfannekuchen? Or is it Pfannkuchen?

[tony cooper]

On 24 Feb 2012 02:23:08 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

Many towns have nicknames that are not flattering given them by
residents. My hometown of Indianapolis was often referred to as
"Indian-no-place" or "Naptown".

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Christian Weisgerber]

Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> All the same, I've heard Germans being disparaging about the Berliner
> Curry-Würste, and a lot of North Germans saying nasty things about the
> southern Weisswürste. I like both these days, but back when I was 20, I
> like Curry-Wurst a lot more than I do now and I despised the tasty
> Weisswurst.

The cultural border between Northern and Southern Germany is
humorously known as the "Weißwurstäquator".

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[David Dyer-Bennet]

I've heard the town I live in called "Minnie-no-place" on occasion.
(There was some previous attempt to get it called "the Minny-Apple",
which doesn't seem to have taken off.)

[Robert Bannister]

I'm not entirely sure because when you hear "Pfannkuchen", you can't
always be sure they're not skipping over the e, so my memory says with
an e, but I wouldn't bet money on it. The amount of time I spent in
Berlin, it took me ages to stop calling rolls "Schrippen", which was not
understood everywhere else in Germany.

--
Robert Bannister

[Skitt]

OK, I never lived in Berlin, but the word as I knew it was der
Pfannkuchen. Dialects may vary.

[Robert Bannister]

OK - du hast Recht. Leo says: der Donut, der Berliner (regional), der
Berliner Pfannkuchen (regional), der Krapfen (Süddt), der Pfannkuchen
(Berlin, regional).

"Donut" really surprised me, especially coming at the top of the list. I
also wondered for moment why they used English "regional" before I
realised that not only is it a German word, but it's not easy to express
any other way (örtlich begrenzt).

--
Robert Bannister

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-25, Robert Bannister wrote:

> OK - du hast Recht. Leo says: der Donut, der Berliner (regional), der
> Berliner Pfannkuchen (regional), der Krapfen (Süddt), der Pfannkuchen
> (Berlin, regional).
>
> "Donut" really surprised me, especially coming at the top of the list. I
> also wondered for moment why they used English "regional" before I
> realised that not only is it a German word, but it's not easy to express
> any other way (örtlich begrenzt).

ISTR Deutsche Bahn & related organizations use terms like
"Regionalverkehr" and "Regionalexpress".


--
The internet is quite simply a glorious place. Where else can you find
bootlegged music and films, questionable women, deep seated xenophobia
and amusing cats all together in the same place? [Tom Belshaw]

[Christian Weisgerber]

Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> OK - du hast Recht. Leo says: der Donut, der Berliner (regional), der
> Berliner Pfannkuchen (regional), der Krapfen (Süddt), der Pfannkuchen
> (Berlin, regional).

Fasnachtsküchle (southwestern, regional)

> "Donut" really surprised me, especially coming at the top of the list.

I think the issue is that an American donut is vaguely similar but
not really the same as the German pastries. The German Wikipedia
has a separate "Donut" article as well. (It also has separate
articles "Berliner Pfannkuchen" and "Krapfen", but these are marked
as overlapping and candidates for unification.)

> I also wondered for moment why they used English "regional" before
> I realised that not only is it a German word, but it's not easy to
> express any other way (örtlich begrenzt).

The Duden grammar refers to regional usages as "landschaftlich".

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:55:58 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> I think the issue is that an American donut is vaguely similar but
> not really the same as the German pastries.
>

That surprises me not at all. "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark except
for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are mounded
with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Joe Fineman]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:

> That surprises me not at all. "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
> resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
> except for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are
> mounded with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!

We also have English muffins, which AFAIK are not to be found in
England under any name.

--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: They promise to be kind masters, but they mean to be :||
||: masters. :||

[LFS]

On 27/02/2012 15:03, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Stan Brown<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
>> That surprises me not at all. "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
>> resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
>> except for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are
>> mounded with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!
>
> We also have English muffins, which AFAIK are not to be found in
> England under any name.

AIU AmE "English muffins" are the same as BrE "muffins". Until very
recently, the cake-like AmE "muffin" had no Rightpondian equivalent.

This picture is from an aue event -

http://alt-usage-english.org/sym2/mikep-muffin.html

- where I believe that the question may have been definitively settled
through experiment.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

[tony cooper]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:03:14 -0500, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
>> That surprises me not at all. "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
>> resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
>> except for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are
>> mounded with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!
>
>We also have English muffins, which AFAIK are not to be found in
>England under any name.

And French toast.

[tony cooper]

We often have English muffins in the pantry, but they are always
toasted before eating. Because of the open-grain structure, the part
of the muffin that is closest to the heating element is toasted, but
the interior is just warmed. They are not toasted to the extent that
bread is toasted.

[CT]

tony cooper wrote:

> We often have English muffins in the pantry, but they are always
> toasted before eating. Because of the open-grain structure, the part
> of the muffin that is closest to the heating element is toasted, but
> the interior is just warmed. They are not toasted to the extent that
> bread is toasted.

They sounds like crumpets to me.

--
Chris

[Mike L]

See the link in Laura's post to Mike Page's photo. Then, however,
reflect that in some parts of England, crumpets are called "muffins",
and in others, "pikelets". For me, however, a pikelet is a small drop
scone. Mind you, for some, a drop scone is a "Scotch pancake". You may
then either despair of the whole business, or, passing the
pronunciation of "scone", proceed straight to "bun".

--
Mike.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

I've been meaning to make a collection of, and photograph, samples of
all the things called "muffins" in our nearby supermarkets and
convenience stores. One brand of them are consistently labelled
"muffens". If that was originally a misspelling it seems to have been
kept.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Duggy]

On Feb 28, 1:03 am, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> writes:
> > That surprises me not at all.  "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
> > resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
> > except for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are
> > mounded with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!
>
> We also have English muffins, which AFAIK are not to be found in
> England under any name.

I thought they were called muffins in England.

They were in Australia until they became English muffins.

===
= DUG.
===

[Robert Bannister]

You have to cut muffins in half. When we had the grocer's shop in
England, we sold them and I am almost certain they had the phrase
"English muffins" on the packet they came in. I never liked them myself.

--
Robert Bannister

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:

> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:55:58 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> I think the issue is that an American donut is vaguely similar but
>> not really the same as the German pastries.
>>
>
> That surprises me not at all. "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
> resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
> except for its spiral shape;

That one's explicable, at least. In 1920, one L.C. Klitteng,
"consulting baker of the Isle of Laesoe, Denmark", opened the "Danish
Culinary Studio", in New York, to teach people "this art of producing
high grade pastry, either by practical demonstration or through a
correspondence course." He marketed the product as "Danish Pastry"
(always capitalized).

So a Dane called it "Danish Pastry" and opened the "Danish Culinary
Studio" (sometimes refered to in ads as the "Danish Pastry Baking
School") to teach people how to make it, and the name stuck, folks in
the US not knowing any better.

> and "Belgian waffles" in the US are mounded with whipped cream and
> aren't even made with yeast!

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |There's been so much ado already
SF Bay Area (1982-) |that any further ado would be
Chicago (1964-1982) |excessive.
| Lori Karkosky
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Duggy]

On Feb 28, 10:38 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> You have to cut muffins in half. When we had the grocer's shop in
> England, we sold them and I am almost certain they had the phrase
> "English muffins" on the packet they came in. I never liked them myself.

By themselves they're nothing much, but they seem to have made a
comeback as the bread as a fastfood breakfast burger.

===
= DUG.
===

[R H Draney]

Duggy filted:

You're not supposed to cut them; you *tear* them in half before toasting...and
they come in different formulations...my favorite is a buttered sourdough muffin
alongside a dish of scrambled eggs and chorizo....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:03:14 -0500, Joe Fineman wrote:
>
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
> > That surprises me not at all. "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
> > resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
> > except for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are
> > mounded with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!
>
> We also have English muffins, which AFAIK are not to be found in
> England under any name.

I always thought those were crumpets.

This crumpet looks to me like an AmE "English muffin":

http://magiccarpet.tumblr.com/post/87012438

[Duggy]

On Feb 28, 1:19 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:03:14 -0500, Joe Fineman wrote:
>

> > Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
> > > That surprises me not at all.  "Danish pastry" in the US bears no
> > > resemblance to the light and flaky article consumed in Denmark
> > > except for its spiral shape; and "Belgian waffles" in the US are
> > > mounded with whipped cream and aren't even made with yeast!
>
> > We also have English muffins, which AFAIK are not to be found in
> > England under any name.
>
> I always thought those were crumpets.
>
> This crumpet looks to me like an AmE "English muffin":
>
> http://magiccarpet.tumblr.com/post/87012438

Nope.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enAU440AU440&q=English+Muffin&gs_upl=&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1090&bih=719&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=zElMT6WXFo-diAfxtvFF

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Feb 28, 1:17 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Duggy filted:
> >On Feb 28, 10:38=A0am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> You have to cut muffins in half. When we had the grocer's shop in
> >> England, we sold them and I am almost certain they had the phrase
> >> "English muffins" on the packet they came in. I never liked them myself.
> >By themselves they're nothing much, but they seem to have made a
> >comeback as the bread as a fastfood breakfast burger.
> You're not supposed to cut them; you *tear* them in half before toasting...

I never said either way. But it my experience both are practical.

> and they come in different formulations...

> my favorite is a buttered sourdough muffin
> alongside a dish of scrambled eggs and chorizo....r

I feel like Pavlov has rung a bell somewhere.

===
= DUG.
===