Cary Grant

[Peter T. Daniels]

I'm reading a new book, *Now You're Talking*, by a British professor of
acoustic engineering, Trevor Cox. The subtitle is "Human Conversation from
the Neanderthals to Artificial Intelligence." It begins with the evolution of
hearing, is very sketchy about the evolution of language or speech, and then
moves on to the development of the voice in individuals. The references are
a disconcerting mix of specialist journal articles and popular web sites.

On p. 108f. (in the context of using accents to differentiate character in
movies), he writes, "Nothing says establishment so clearly as a cut-glass
English accent. A good example of this is Alfred Hitchcock's *North by
Northwest* where Cary Grant plays the hero, an advertising executive
accidentally caught up in an international spy ring. While Grant speaks
with an American accent, James Mason plays the villain Vandamm using R.P."

The last sentence is footnoted, "Ironically, Cary Grant was actually born
and brought up in Bristol, England. If Mason had used a strong regional
accent from Britain then American audiences may have struggled to understand
it. ..." (Incidentally, that's a "baseball 'may'"; it should be "might have
struggled.")

Do Brits really think Cary Grant had an American accent???

The standard example of good-guy Americans / bad-guy Brits is *Spartacus*.
Was that a practice among British filmmakers like Hitchcock? I recently saw
*Dial M for Murder* again, and he goes to considerable lengths explaining
why Grace Kelly and Robert Cummings are American. Ray Milland sounded no
less British than Cary Grant, and both of them were frequently cast as
Americans, but in this movie, Milland is the (to be sure) evil Brit.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <75d3b4b5-e093-407d...@googlegroups.com>,

It's a matter of relativity and class. Grant sounded much more American
than Mason. The same can be said in Talk of the Town, where Grant sounds
closer to common American in contrast with Roland Colman, whose
character is also American, but Upper Class New England American.
Patrick McGoohan is another example. In many British productions
(Dangerman/Secret Agent, foremost), he is cast as an American (or
Irish-American) against the veddy British villains who are playing
Russians or other villains. And he was consistently cast as an American
in American TV and movies (Escape from Alcatraz or Columbo). McGoohan is
the villain, because he sounds upper class in contrast with Eastwood or
Falk.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 15-Oct-18 17:19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>
> Do Brits really think Cary Grant had an American accent???
>

It sure as hell isn't a Bristol accent.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 16:19:05 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I'm reading a new book

Excellent. But may I suggest that accents aren't easily conveyed in such a
medium.

Archie Leach left a long time back;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Grant



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Of course. Anyone not totally deaf to accents could detect that. Grant
cultivated a patrician American accent -- not the sort of accent you'd
expect from yobbos in Jersey City, but American all the same; Mason
cultivated a British bad-guy accent.

> The same can be said in Talk of the Town, where Grant sounds
> closer to common American in contrast with Roland Colman, whose
> character is also American, but Upper Class New England American.
> Patrick McGoohan is another example. In many British productions
> (Dangerman/Secret Agent, foremost), he is cast as an American (or
> Irish-American) against the veddy British villains who are playing
> Russians or other villains. And he was consistently cast as an American
> in American TV and movies (Escape from Alcatraz or Columbo). McGoohan is
> the villain, because he sounds upper class in contrast with Eastwood or
> Falk.

--
athel

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Nort at all, me babber.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 2:47:34 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 16:19:05 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > I'm reading a new book
>
> Excellent. But may I suggest that accents aren't easily conveyed in such a
> medium.

What makes this peculiar person think that accents are being "conveyed"
in the book?

The book -- actually, the author of the book -- cites a presumably well-
known voice to illustrate his point. Like quite a few of his other pop
culture references, it's incomprehensible to the American reader. For
instance, in discussing the assumption of homosexuality on the basis of
certain speech traits, he names a number of comics(?) who use what they
think are gay stereotypes in their characterizations, none of them
familiar to the ordinary American, probably even to one addicted to
BBC America.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There are no "yobbos" in Jersey City, nor are there all that many native
speakers of English.

The author did not say that Cary Grant sounds "more American" than James
Mason. He said he "has an American accent."

Which "patrician Americans" does Athel think talk(ed) like Cary Grant?

[Janet]

In article <75d3b4b5-e093-407d...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

>
> I'm reading a new book, *Now You're Talking*, by a British professor of
> acoustic engineering, Trevor Cox. The subtitle is "Human Conversation from
> the Neanderthals to Artificial Intelligence." It begins with the evolution of
> hearing, is very sketchy about the evolution of language or speech, and then
> moves on to the development of the voice in individuals. The references are
> a disconcerting mix of specialist journal articles and popular web sites.
>
> On p. 108f. (in the context of using accents to differentiate character in
> movies), he writes, "Nothing says establishment so clearly as a cut-glass
> English accent. A good example of this is Alfred Hitchcock's *North by
> Northwest* where Cary Grant plays the hero, an advertising executive
> accidentally caught up in an international spy ring. While Grant speaks
> with an American accent, James Mason plays the villain Vandamm using R.P."
>
> The last sentence is footnoted, "Ironically, Cary Grant was actually born
> and brought up in Bristol, England. If Mason had used a strong regional
> accent from Britain then American audiences may have struggled to understand
> it. ..." (Incidentally, that's a "baseball 'may'"; it should be "might have
> struggled.")
>
> Do Brits really think Cary Grant had an American accent???

Yes.

Janet.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Agreed.
I've just listened to him when receiving an honorary Oscar in 1970.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Zijgn-c9w


I can see why to British ears he has an American accent but to, at least
some, American ears he has a British accent.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[RHDraney]

On 10/15/2018 2:19 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 20:36:44 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <75d3b4b5-e093-407d...@googlegroups.com>,
>> gram...@verizon.net says...
>>>

>>> Do Brits really think Cary Grant had an American accent???
>>
>> Yes.
>

> Agreed.
> I've just listened to him when receiving an honorary Oscar in 1970.
>

> I can see why to British ears he has an American accent but to, at least
> some, American ears he has a British accent.

Grant is my go-to exemplar for what is called a "mid-Atlantic"
accent...him, and Alistair Cooke...not Derek Smalls, although Harry
Shearer has said he conceived of his character as one of those Brits who
has lived so long in America he's become neither fish nor fowl....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

Cox also has too many paragraphs about Cooke -- mostly in his discussion
of the effect of aging on the voice, even though Cooke successfully
disguised it until almost the end, because of nearly 60 years of regular
recordings. Bizarrely, he claims that Cooke sounded more American in
1947 than in 2005.

[arthu...@gmail.com]

I am not sure "mid-Atlantic" means the same thing in Britain and in the US.

What about Katharine Hephurn's accent? Doesn't it sound a bit British to
Americans? I always had the impression that Cary Grant's and Katharine
Hephurn's accents were somewhat alike.


To me, Cary Grant does have a "mid-Atlantic" accent.

Is it possible that the accents of certain parts of the US (New England for
instance) have changed over time?

Gratefully,
Navi

[micky]

In alt.usage.english, on Mon, 15 Oct 2018 12:07:30 -0700 (PDT), "Peter

He doesn't talk like a Brit either, so what are they to think?

>
>> > The same can be said in Talk of the Town, where Grant sounds
>> > closer to common American in contrast with Roland Colman, whose

Ronald Colman.

>> > character is also American, but Upper Class New England American.
>> > Patrick McGoohan is another example. In many British productions
>> > (Dangerman/Secret Agent, foremost), he is cast as an American (or
>> > Irish-American) against the veddy British villains who are playing
>> > Russians or other villains. And he was consistently cast as an American
>> > in American TV and movies (Escape from Alcatraz or Columbo). McGoohan is
>> > the villain, because he sounds upper class in contrast with Eastwood or
>> > Falk.

--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.

[Lewis]

In message <11fe22f8-2a5f-4d08...@googlegroups.com> arthu...@gmail.com <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 3:24:50 PM UTC-7, RHDraney wrote:
>> On 10/15/2018 2:19 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> > On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 20:36:44 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <75d3b4b5-e093-407d...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> gram...@verizon.net says...
>> >>>
>> >>> Do Brits really think Cary Grant had an American accent???
>> >>
>> >> Yes.
>> >
>> > Agreed.
>> > I've just listened to him when receiving an honorary Oscar in 1970.
>> >
>> > I can see why to British ears he has an American accent but to, at least
>> > some, American ears he has a British accent.
>>
>> Grant is my go-to exemplar for what is called a "mid-Atlantic"
>> accent...him, and Alistair Cooke...not Derek Smalls, although Harry
>> Shearer has said he conceived of his character as one of those Brits who
>> has lived so long in America he's become neither fish nor fowl....r


> I am not sure "mid-Atlantic" means the same thing in Britain and in the US.

> What about Katharine Hephurn's accent? Doesn't it sound a bit British to
> Americans? I always had the impression that Cary Grant's and Katharine
> Hephurn's accents were somewhat alike.

Katherine Hepburn sounds exactly like my Aunt did only my aunt had a
southern lilt to her speech, so I don't think she sounds British. They
both wen to Bryn Mawr, and my aunt never lost the New England sound in
her speech.

> To me, Cary Grant does have a "mid-Atlantic" accent.

I think of Hepburn's as more New England than Mid-Atlantic?

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPk-O-kPiG0>

> Is it possible that the accents of certain parts of the US (New England for
> instance) have changed over time?

Of course, regional accents change all the time.

--
Psychic convention cancelled due to unforeseen problems.

[Lewis]

In message <slrnpsbjmn....@jaka.local> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPk-O-kPiG0>

Odd, the line I typed about Shelby Foote appears to have disappeared.
Anyway, Mr Foote has a specific Southern accent that is not heard much
anymore.

--
"We take off our Republican hats and put on our American hats" -- Many
Republicans in Sep 2008

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 2:21:01 AM UTC-4, arthu...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 3:24:50 PM UTC-7, RHDraney wrote:
> > On 10/15/2018 2:19 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 20:36:44 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In article <75d3b4b5-e093-407d...@googlegroups.com>,
> > >> gram...@verizon.net says...
> > >>>
> > >>> Do Brits really think Cary Grant had an American accent???
> > >>
> > >> Yes.
> > >
> > > Agreed.
> > > I've just listened to him when receiving an honorary Oscar in 1970.
> > >
> > > I can see why to British ears he has an American accent but to, at least
> > > some, American ears he has a British accent.
> >
> > Grant is my go-to exemplar for what is called a "mid-Atlantic"
> > accent...him, and Alistair Cooke...not Derek Smalls, although Harry
> > Shearer has said he conceived of his character as one of those Brits who
> > has lived so long in America he's become neither fish nor fowl....r
>
> I am not sure "mid-Atlantic" means the same thing in Britain and in the US.
>
> What about Katharine Hephurn's accent? Doesn't it sound a bit British to
> Americans?

No, it sounds like exactly what it is: Upper-Crust southern New England,
i.e. Connecticut (more broadly, Upper Class Hudson Valley, also heard in
FDR and such personalities as George Plimpton and, before she apparently
had elocution lessons, Caroline Kennedy).

> I always had the impression that Cary Grant's and Katharine
> Hephurn's accents were somewhat alike.

But they're not.

> To me, Cary Grant does have a "mid-Atlantic" accent.
>
> Is it possible that the accents of certain parts of the US (New England
> for instance) have changed over time?

It's impossible that they haven't.

Happily, we have movies from the late 1920s on, and there wasn't a craze
for imitating accents much before Streep got famous for doing it. Clark
Gable refused to learn a "Southern accent" for *Gone with the Wind*, even
though the Brit Vivien Leigh did so for her only two greatly celebrated
roles. (Note that Brando and Malden didn't, either, in *Streetcar*.)

[arthu...@gmail.com]

Thank you all so much,

It would be interesting to write a book about accent imitation in the movies.
It seems to me that Peter Sellers did some interesting work in accent imitation.
I had no idea that Vivien Leigh was British!

Does Brando speak with a British accent in Julius Caesar?


Gratefully,
Navi

[Peter T. Daniels]

I don't think Sellers was imitating (except presumably in Dr Strangelove)
so much as inventing a new accent for a new persona.

> Does Brando speak with a British accent in Julius Caesar?

Heck no! But he did ask Gielgud for help with enunciation.

[Paul Wolff]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> posted:

No, Peter Sellers was brilliant at transforming himself into someone
else's stereotype, by his speech. It wasn't imitation - it was immersion
carried to a tiny excess, on the edge of parody or caricature. He had a
huge range of personas to draw on.

The only invention of his I can think of right now is the character of
Bluebottle, in The Goon Show, a cult BBC comedy radio entertainment of
the 1950s, but even Bluebottle was, so I heard, modelled on a Boy Scout
whose peculiar way of speaking Sellers had observed and stockpiled for
future use.

Ah, the Goon show - a range of characters seemingly at least as broad as
the Muppets, all voiced by three or four actors: Spike Milligan who
wrote it, Peter Sellers, Harry Secombe, and Michael Bentine in some
early shows.
--
Paul

[Peter T. Daniels]

Inspector Clouseau? The Mouse That Roared? Being There?

> Ah, the Goon show - a range of characters seemingly at least as broad as
> the Muppets, all voiced by three or four actors: Spike Milligan who
> wrote it, Peter Sellers, Harry Secombe, and Michael Bentine in some
> early shows.

Some of us are both too young and too transatlantic to ever have heard
the Goon Show. Or Beyond the Fringe. The closest we have come is Monty
Python.

[arthu...@gmail.com]

I think he had an American accent in Lolita, and an Indian accent in The Party.
I wonder if the latter movie would be considered politically correct these days.
His Clouseau wasn't necessarily politically correct either.

Do American actors adopt a British accent when they are staging a Shakespeare
play in the US?

That would probably make sense if they were staging a play such as Richard III
but would it make sense if they were staging a play like Romeo and Juliette?

Gratefully,
Navi

[RHDraney]

On 10/16/2018 10:35 PM, arthu...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I think [Peter Sellers] had an American accent in Lolita, and an Indian accent in The Party.

> I wonder if the latter movie would be considered politically correct these days.
> His Clouseau wasn't necessarily politically correct either.

I think his accent in "Being There" was meant to be American, but it's
hard to say...as I watched the film for the first time, I kept thinking
to myself "I know I've heard this character before, but where?"...

Then a scene shows him watching "Mister Rogers Neighborhood" and the
penny dropped....r

[LFS]

Closest to what?

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[charles]

In article <4f20ffac-d972-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

Beyond the Fringe did appear in NY but off Broadway, I think. There, Alan
Bennett heard a waiter refer to it as "Behind the Fridge". The other
comment was that luckily they weren't classed as a "musical" so they only
had to have 6 pit musicians!

BUt what has Beyond the Fringe to do with Peter Sellars? Nothing

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Largely apocryphal and wildly inaccurate, I'm afraid. Beyond the Fringe
did appear on Broadway and at other US venues but not with the
original cast. Behind the Fridge was an invention of Peter Cook and
Dudley Moore, used as the title of a 1967 tour of Australia and later
for a number of TV projects.

[Peter T. Daniels]

That's a pretty broad question!

John Lithgow didn't in the Shakespeare in the Park's Lear a few summers ago. The company of New York Classical Theater, which performs in parks
around the city, doesn't. All of them use careful diction.

> That would probably make sense if they were staging a play such as Richard III
> but would it make sense if they were staging a play like Romeo and Juliette?

Juliet.

NYCT has done both of them in recent seasons. They didn't.

This summer, NYSF did Twelfth Night in a musical adaptation that involved
community choruses from around the city. The lines that were direct from
Shakespeare were instantly distinguishable from those by the modern
creators, but not because the actors put on some fancy accent.

[Peter T. Daniels]

To The Goon Show and Beyond the Fringe. You really do need to read for
context. And there really is a British comedy sensibility that is/was
quite alien to US audiences, at least until Cook & Moore came to Broadway.

Need I remind you that your obsession with drag has never crossed the
Atlantic?

Last night on Colbert, Lin-Manuel Miranda described the London premiere
of *Hamilton*. One thing that struck him was that the British audience
reacted to mildly racy lines that no one in any US audience had ever
had any reaction at all to -- Burr (I think he said it was) sings that
he kept her bed warm while her husband was away, and the British audience
found that shocking, or something (I didn't know how to interpret the
reaction he described). (He was sitting with Harry and Megan. She had
seen the show, he hadn't. He was a bit concerned about the campy portrayal
of his "six-greats-grandfather," but reported that when the show was first
running at the Public Theater, Helen Mirren had assured him that British
audiences love to see the royals "take the piss" and he shouldn't worry.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Once again, too young.

> Bennett heard a waiter refer to it as "Behind the Fridge". The other
> comment was that luckily they weren't classed as a "musical" so they only
> had to have 6 pit musicians!
>
> BUt what has Beyond the Fringe to do with Peter Sellars? Nothing

See reply to Laura. BtF and the Goon Show are very alike. And they begat
Monty Python.

Denying that would be like denying the affinity of the Keystone Kops,
the Three Stooges, Abbott and Costello, and Martin and Lewis.

And that's the style that begat the more cerebral acts like Buster Keaton,
Harold Lloyd, William Powell & Myrna Loy, and Tracy & Hepburn.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Excuse me? Dame Edna Everage didn't do Broadway in 2000 & 2004 and a
string of USA tours picking up a Tony on the way? Ru Paul's Drag Race is
a figment of my imagination? The Largest Drag Show on Earth didn't take
place in Seattle in 2014?

[Peter T. Daniels]

I cannot explain Dame Edna. I would turn off the television whenever
he appeared.

Ru Paul's enterprises concern actual drag queens, whose activity is not
intended to be laughed at. I don't know what took place in Seattle, but
it's highly unlikely that it was British-style cross-dressing for the
purpose of being laughed at. Need I remind you of "pantomimes" and the
failure of that one holdover from the original production of *Matilda*,
who must have insisted on being nominated in the Best Actor in a Musical
category at the Tonys? (The show won just about every other one it was
nominated for.)

[charles]

In article <876493c3-bf52-497a...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

They are nothing like each other. The only "begat" is that Peter Cooke,
Jonathan Miller & some of the Pythons were members of the Cambridge
University Footlights (as was I).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Maybe you're too close for an overview.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

So it's drag but not drag, gotcha! [sigh]

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Or maybe you're just wrong. Beyond the Fringe and the Goon Show
are chalk and cheese. And although Eric Idle admits in his recent book
to having learnt Beyond the Fringe by heart he also says that it is
ridiculous to see Python as the child of any particular forerunners
because it is such a unique confluence of six utterly different comic
minds.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Ri-i-i-i-ight.

He was on Colbert this week -- they showed a "movie" that he directed,
before they were called "videos," for a pop song -- the style, though
not the imagery, was very much Monty Python.

[not directly relevant; he was selling his new book]

And John Cleese played Minnie Driver's cold and distant father on the
first two episodes of *Speechless*. Not a particularly comic part.

[Tony Cooper]

Back in 1964 I made my first trip to San Francisco. It was a business
trip, but I took my wife along. We went to some locally famous bar -
Finocchio's - where female impersonators were the featured act. If I
remember right, the bar was rather famous for this, but it was not the
only place in town for this type of entertainment.

I have to admit that this is an area where I'm not sure of the proper
nomenclature, but it seems to me that female impersonators are the
same as drag queens. I don't remember the term "drag queens" being
used to describe the act, though.

Checking Google, it says that Finocchio's was "a huge favorite with
tourists from the 1930s to the early 1990s".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finocchio%27s_Club

It also provides a reference to the Starlight Room: "Harry Denton's
Starlight Room started a drag show in 2006 called "Sunday's a Drag," a
female impersonation show modeled after Finocchio's. These shows are
hosted by Donna Sachet."

Drifting *back* to PTD's comment...It's never a good bet to try read
PTD's mind when he makes a statement, but I read his comment to mean
the appearance of males appearing as females in comedy sketches on TV.
"Obsession" is a rather odd term to use, but he's right that this has
never been a frequent feature of US comedy sketches seen on TV. It
wasn't unheard of, but it certainly wasn't a frequent feature.

Milton Berle had some routines where he appeared as a female, but it
was Flip Wilson's "Geraldine" in the early 1970s that was the first
recurring mainstream character. I wouldn't say that "Geraldine" was a
drag queen, but Wilson's act was close to the Python character's
characters.

It was a frequent feature in Monty Python sketches.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Jerry Friedman]

...

> Drifting *back* to PTD's comment...It's never a good bet to try read
> PTD's mind when he makes a statement, but I read his comment to mean
> the appearance of males appearing as females in comedy sketches on TV.
> "Obsession" is a rather odd term to use, but he's right that this has
> never been a frequent feature of US comedy sketches seen on TV. It
> wasn't unheard of, but it certainly wasn't a frequent feature.
>
> Milton Berle had some routines where he appeared as a female, but it
> was Flip Wilson's "Geraldine" in the early 1970s that was the first
> recurring mainstream character. I wouldn't say that "Geraldine" was a
> drag queen, but Wilson's act was close to the Python character's
> characters.

From those days, Wikipedia mentions Jonathan Winters (who I remember)
and Harvey Korman (who I don't, as far as drag is concerned).

> It was a frequent feature in Monty Python sketches.

Maybe not that frequent, as you say, in American sketch comedy.

--
Jerry Friedman

[RHDraney]

When JoAnne Worley left the cast of "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In", quite a
few bits featuring her loud, brassy character were left in the
pipeline...fellow cast member Alan Sues was dressed in drag to perform
as Worley so the gags could be aired....

(There was a story that came out when Alice Ghostley passed away that
earlier in her career she had been described as "Paul Lynde in drag")....r

[Tony Cooper]

I forgot about Harvey Korman's sketches on the Carol Burnett show and
his "Mother Marcus" character. Tim Conway did some sketches in drag
on that show, too.

Jonathan Winters did some sketches as a old lady, but I forget the
character's name.

>
>> It was a frequent feature in Monty Python sketches.
>
>Maybe not that frequent, as you say, in American sketch comedy.

Maybe we do have an "obsession".

[Peter T. Daniels]

I suspect you've never met or seen (that you realized) an actual
transvestite / cross-dresser. Men who have practiced their art and craft
are far more skilled than e.g. Dustin Hoffman in *Tootsie* or Robin
Williams in *Mrs. Doubtfire* -- even though in the fiction of those
movies, no one could "tell" that they were "passing." Transvestites
are usually heterosexual, and often are married to supportive women.

Ru Paul -style drag queens are usually homosexual, and are using their
art and their craft as expressions of what used to be called "gay
liberation." That *Ru Paul's Drag Race* won the Emmy this year for
Best Reality Show Competition -- without, that I know of, a peep of
protest from the haters -- is a measure of their success (though I
would have preferred *American Ninja Warriors* to win. Which has had,
incidentally, both openly gay and openly lesbian contestants.)

The female impersonators whom Tony gawked at in San Francisco more than
fifty years ago are yet another class of performer: their art is to adopt
the look and persona of certain beloved singers and lip-synch to their
favorite recordings. Judy Garland and Barbra Streisand were among the
favorites; Liza Minelli became a tragic figure and perhaps for that
reason soon fell from favor. (It's not clear whether she was acting when
she was a character on *Arrested Development*.)

In the (early) 70s, an offshoot of punk known as "genderfuck" was briefly
popular -- I saw a show by the Cycle Sluts at the Playboy Club (which was
on the ground floor of the Palmolive Building on Michigan Avenue; not the
Playboy Mansion, which was around the block. When Hefner moved his opera-
tion to L.A., the historic building became the HQ of a charitable founda-
tion.) Genderfuck was heavily bearded and otherwise hairy men in such
feminine attire as tutus. The Cycle Sluts combined it with biker accoutre-
ments such as chains and leather.

None of the above bears any relation to the burlesques that so delight
English audiences.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <fj2fsd131eu11fukr...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@invalid.com> wrote:

>
> Jonathan Winters did some sketches as a old lady, but I forget the
> character's name.
> >

Maude Frickert.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There was, of course, no suggestion that it wasn't Jonathan Winters in a wig.

[Ken Blake]

Unlike Peter Sellers, Harry Secomb played only one role--Neddy
Seagoon.

I was a big Goon Show fan, and I thought I had heard most of them. But
I've never hear of Michael Bentine.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:16:38 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

And what <G> does Peter Sellars have to do with Peter Sellers? Nothing

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:36:09 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>The female impersonators whom Tony gawked at in San Francisco more than
>fifty years ago are yet another class of performer:

>I saw a show by the Cycle Sluts at the Playboy Club

I am curious about why I "gawked" and you "saw".

We both paid admission to and attended a performance put on by people
paid to do an act to amuse and entertain the audience.

[Jerry Friedman]

This brings us to the Church Lady, Coffee Talk with Linda
Richman, etc.

And let's not forget "Honey Bun" in /South Pacific/, which
suggests that cross-dressing was a routine part of amateur
entertainment. After all, it takes clothes but no talent.
(Talent does improve it.)

> Jonathan Winters did some sketches as a old lady, but I forget the
> character's name.
> >
> >> It was a frequent feature in Monty Python sketches.
> >
> >Maybe not that frequent, as you say, in American sketch comedy.
>
> Maybe we do have an "obsession".

I'd call it a hardy perennial. What we don't have is a
genre like British pantomime where cross-dressing is part
of the convention (but not the whole point as it is in
a drag show).

--
Jerry Friedman

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <e1f52533-6094-4737...@googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

That's called acting.

Winters created a host of characters. There was no question that they
were all Winters. Jack Paar used to have conversations with him in
character.

[Janet]

In article <ed363442-14db-4064...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

> > So it's drag but not drag, gotcha! [sigh]
>
> I suspect you've never met or seen (that you realized) an actual
> transvestite / cross-dresser. Men who have practiced their art and craft
> are far more skilled than e.g. Dustin Hoffman in *Tootsie* or Robin
> Williams in *Mrs. Doubtfire* -- even though in the fiction of those
> movies, no one could "tell" that they were "passing." Transvestites
> are usually heterosexual, and often are married to supportive women.

Like Grayson Perry

>
> Ru Paul -style drag queens are usually homosexual, and are using their
> art and their craft as expressions of what used to be called "gay
> liberation."

Like Eddie Izzard, and Paul O'Grady

>
> The female impersonators whom Tony gawked at in San Francisco more than
> fifty years ago are yet another class of performer: their art is to adopt
> the look and persona of certain beloved singers and lip-synch to their
> favorite recordings. Judy Garland and Barbra Streisand were among the
> favorites; Liza Minelli became a tragic figure and perhaps for that
> reason soon fell from favor. (It's not clear whether she was acting when
> she was a character on *Arrested Development*.)

Like Danny la Rue

>
> In the (early) 70s, an offshoot of punk known as "genderfuck" was briefly
> popular -- I saw a show by the Cycle Sluts at the Playboy Club (which was
> on the ground floor of the Palmolive Building on Michigan Avenue; not the
> Playboy Mansion, which was around the block. When Hefner moved his opera-
> tion to L.A., the historic building became the HQ of a charitable founda-
> tion.) Genderfuck was heavily bearded and otherwise hairy men in such
> feminine attire as tutus.

Like Kenny Everett

>
> None of the above bears any relation to the burlesques that so delight
> English audiences.

The above are all famous Brits, national figures in UK TV. stage and
media.

Janet.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <14902f4c-322c-4dfd...@googlegroups.com>,

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> And let's not forget "Honey Bun" in /South Pacific/, which
> suggests that cross-dressing was a routine part of amateur
> entertainment. After all, it takes clothes but no talent.
> (Talent does improve it.)

Sgt. Shapiro in Stalag 17 pretending to be Betty Grable, with mop wig,
for Animal.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:54:30 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:36:09 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >The female impersonators whom Tony gawked at in San Francisco more than
> >fifty years ago are yet another class of performer:
>
> >I saw a show by the Cycle Sluts at the Playboy Club
>
> I am curious about why I "gawked" and you "saw".

Because you were a Midwestern hick who had no idea about sexual variance
or what "the Big City" of San Francisco was like in those days.

> We both paid admission to and attended a performance put on by people
> paid to do an act to amuse and entertain the audience.

Once again, you didn't bother to read (or try to comprehend?) what you
typed after.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 5:21:27 PM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> In article <ed363442-14db-4064...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net says...

> > > So it's drag but not drag, gotcha! [sigh]
> > I suspect you've never met or seen (that you realized) an actual
> > transvestite / cross-dresser. Men who have practiced their art and craft
> > are far more skilled than e.g. Dustin Hoffman in *Tootsie* or Robin
> > Williams in *Mrs. Doubtfire* -- even though in the fiction of those
> > movies, no one could "tell" that they were "passing." Transvestites
> > are usually heterosexual, and often are married to supportive women.
>
> Like Grayson Perry
>
> > Ru Paul -style drag queens are usually homosexual, and are using their
> > art and their craft as expressions of what used to be called "gay
> > liberation."
>
> Like Eddie Izzard, and Paul O'Grady

Eddie Izzard fits in the "genderfuck" category.

I have not heard of any of the others you name, but the very fact that

"The above are all famous Brits, national figures in UK TV. stage and media"

shows the tremendous difference between US and UK entertainment. Except
for Ru Paul and one or two transsexuals who have made that persona public,
we simply don't have that kind of entertainer. Whereas it's entirely _de
rigueur_ to have gay characters, including gay couples, on series in all
genres. Even the re-reboot of *Roseanne*, known as *The Conners*, has a
grandchild who last season was a Quinn-style androgyne but this season
seems to be being presented as just plain gay (he's about 10; in the
first episode he asked Dan [John Goodman] for advice in choosing his
seatmate for a field trip on a school bus).

[Peter T. Daniels]

One has the impression that that sort of thing was entirely ordinary
during WWII. The movies don't dare go so far as to depict "situational
homosexuality" among servicemen, but to pretend that it didn't exist
would be ridiculous.

[Tony Cooper]

And Klinger in M.A.S.H. sort of. Klinger's cross-dressing was done
for purpose, though, and a ploy to get him discharged as insane.

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> posted:

Ah well, he was a Peruvian Englishman, and you don't hear much of them,
unlike his compatriot Paddington Bear. He later became a mad professor
on children's television.

There must have been something about the second world war that made many
talented Englishmen crazy.
--
Paul

[Jerry Friedman]

But the only reason it was funny, to the extent that it was, was
cross-dressing.

--
Jerry Friedman

[bill van]

We're drifting in the direction of the Catch-22 thread.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

Especially since Klinger's ploy didn't work. Attempting to get out of
the war zone was seen as proof of his sanity.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <pq8pau$ivm$1...@dont-email.me>,

Klinger readily admitted that that was his motivation. He tried eating a
Jeep at one point in another attempt to get sent home.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Klinger was no Radar.

They never addressed the fact that Harry Morgan had guested as a crazy
general once several seasons before he became Colonel Potter. No one,
for instance, did a double-take when he was introduced.

[charles]

In article <yPzhJmsf...@wolff.co.uk>,

now called PTSD

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[RHDraney]

Korman also played a matronly character in the Star Wars Holiday
Special...if you've seen that, it's unlikely you would have forgotten it....

> Jonathan Winters did some sketches as a old lady, but I forget the
> character's name.

Maude Frickert, as Horace has pointed out...there was an actress around
that time named Maudie Prickett who was probably a major inspiration for
the character...Johnny Carson also made occasional appearances as a
little old lady named "Aunt Blabby" whose main characterization was
simply that she was old and feisty....

Bob Arbogast did a character from the same mold, voice only, as the
mother of cartoon hero Roger Ramjet....r

[LFS]

On 17/10/2018 16:27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 3:11:55 AM UTC-4, LFS wrote:
>> On 17/10/2018 04:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>>> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 7:08:26 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> posted:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 3:40:47 PM UTC-4, arthu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> It seems to me that Peter Sellers did some interesting work in accent
>>>>>> imitation.
>>>>>> I had no idea that Vivien Leigh was British!
>>>>> I don't think Sellers was imitating (except presumably in Dr Strangelove)
>>>>> so much as inventing a new accent for a new persona.
>>>>
>>>> No, Peter Sellers was brilliant at transforming himself into someone
>>>> else's stereotype, by his speech. It wasn't imitation - it was immersion
>>>> carried to a tiny excess, on the edge of parody or caricature. He had a
>>>> huge range of personas to draw on.
>>>>
>>>> The only invention of his I can think of right now is the character of
>>>> Bluebottle, in The Goon Show, a cult BBC comedy radio entertainment of
>>>> the 1950s, but even Bluebottle was, so I heard, modelled on a Boy Scout
>>>> whose peculiar way of speaking Sellers had observed and stockpiled for
>>>> future use.
>>>

>>> Inspector Clouseau? The Mouse That Roared? Being There?
>>>

>>>> Ah, the Goon show - a range of characters seemingly at least as broad as
>>>> the Muppets, all voiced by three or four actors: Spike Milligan who
>>>> wrote it, Peter Sellers, Harry Secombe, and Michael Bentine in some
>>>> early shows.
>>>

>>> Some of us are both too young and too transatlantic to ever have heard
>>> the Goon Show. Or Beyond the Fringe. The closest we have come is Monty
>>> Python.
>>>
>>
>> Closest to what?
>
> To The Goon Show and Beyond the Fringe.

Which is nonsensical because they have nothing in common other than the
fact that they are British comedy classics.

You really do need to read for
> context. And there really is a British comedy sensibility that is/was
> quite alien to US audiences, at least until Cook & Moore came to Broadway.

Still is. Did Derek and Clive cross the pond?

>
> Need I remind you that your obsession with drag has never crossed the
> Atlantic?
>

> Last night on Colbert, Lin-Manuel Miranda described the London premiere
> of *Hamilton*. One thing that struck him was that the British audience
> reacted to mildly racy lines that no one in any US audience had ever
> had any reaction at all to -- Burr (I think he said it was) sings that
> he kept her bed warm while her husband was away, and the British audience
> found that shocking, or something (I didn't know how to interpret the
> reaction he described). (He was sitting with Harry and Megan. She had
> seen the show, he hadn't. He was a bit concerned about the campy portrayal
> of his "six-greats-grandfather," but reported that when the show was first
> running at the Public Theater, Helen Mirren had assured him that British
> audiences love to see the royals "take the piss" and he shouldn't worry.
>

I watched that interview and was totally bemused. The night I saw
Hamilton in London there was no reaction like that he described.

But I did see Spamalot in both New York and in London and was very
puzzled by the US audience reaction. They laughed in quite different places.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[LFS]

On 17/10/2018 17:32, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 17:21:49 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 12:14:06 PM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>>> In article <876493c3-bf52-497a...@googlegroups.com>, Peter
>>> T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:19:03 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <4f20ffac-d972-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>,

>>>>> Beyond the Fringe did appear in NY but off Broadway, I think. There,
>>>>> Alan

>>>> Once again, too young.

>>>>> Bennett heard a waiter refer to it as "Behind the Fridge". The other
>>>>> comment was that luckily they weren't classed as a "musical" so they
>>>>> only had to have 6 pit musicians!
>>>>> BUt what has Beyond the Fringe to do with Peter Sellars? Nothing

>>>> See reply to Laura. BtF and the Goon Show are very alike. And they begat
>>>> Monty Python.
>>>
>>> They are nothing like each other. The only "begat" is that Peter Cooke,
>>> Jonathan Miller & some of the Pythons were members of the Cambridge
>>> University Footlights (as was I).
>>
>> Maybe you're too close for an overview.
>
> Or maybe you're just wrong. Beyond the Fringe and the Goon Show
> are chalk and cheese. And although Eric Idle admits in his recent book
> to having learnt Beyond the Fringe by heart he also says that it is
> ridiculous to see Python as the child of any particular forerunners
> because it is such a unique confluence of six utterly different comic
> minds.
>

Of course he's wrong. As he's already said, he was too young for the
Goons or BtF. I do admire the brazen way in which he suggests that those
of us who grew up with all of them are too close to understand the
non-existent link. I must tuck that away for future use.

But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important point
is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to understand comedy
if you appreciate the social, political and economic climate in which it
is invented. You had to be a child of 1950s Britain to get the Goons and
I would argue that you needed to have watched TW3 and read early issues
of Private Eye to really grasp the anarchy of Python.

And although I watched US TV shows like I Love Lucy I never understood
what was funny about them and they never made me laugh, until Rhoda.

Swinging back to the topic of accents, last night I saw Mike Leigh's
Peterloo, a splendid movie about an appallingly little known piece of
British history. The screening was followed by a Q & A session with
Leigh (and the wonderful Maxine Peake) in which he explained in response
to a question that the actors spoke with appropriately Northern accents
because he had cast them deliberately: as he pointed out, there are many
fine actors from the north of England so none of them needed to adopt
accents. Slightly mischievously, he compared adopting an accent to white
actors blacking up but the chair of the session moved the discussion
quickly on.

[LFS]

<smile>

I'm sure that PhD theses must have been written on the influence of WW2
experiences on the British entertainment industry. Galton and Simpson
met in a TB sanatorium, places where, judging by my mother's experience,
many creative people seem to have been incarcerated.

[charles]

In article <g2qeht...@mid.individual.net>, LFS

When I saw it in London, I hardly stopped laughing.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 04:55:40 +0100, LFS <lauraDRA...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>You really do need to read for
>> context. And there really is a British comedy sensibility that is/was
>> quite alien to US audiences, at least until Cook & Moore came to Broadway.
>
>Still is. Did Derek and Clive cross the pond?

Here I was, chuffed that I picked up on the Sanders reference, and you
go and stump me with "Derek and Clive".

I don't do well with stumped, though, and did my Google thing. The
Derek and Clive characters were on records, and the sort of records
that adults played at parties when the kids were in bed. Before Derek
and Clive there was "Paul Boomer & Lord Windesmear" and Great
Crepitation Contest.

>
>>
>> Need I remind you that your obsession with drag has never crossed the
>> Atlantic?
>>
>> Last night on Colbert, Lin-Manuel Miranda described the London premiere
>> of *Hamilton*. One thing that struck him was that the British audience
>> reacted to mildly racy lines that no one in any US audience had ever
>> had any reaction at all to -- Burr (I think he said it was) sings that
>> he kept her bed warm while her husband was away, and the British audience
>> found that shocking, or something (I didn't know how to interpret the
>> reaction he described). (He was sitting with Harry and Megan. She had
>> seen the show, he hadn't. He was a bit concerned about the campy portrayal
>> of his "six-greats-grandfather," but reported that when the show was first
>> running at the Public Theater, Helen Mirren had assured him that British
>> audiences love to see the royals "take the piss" and he shouldn't worry.
>>
>
>I watched that interview and was totally bemused. The night I saw
>Hamilton in London there was no reaction like that he described.

I think as the creator of the show he was more attuned to audience
reaction than ordinary members of the audience would be. He was the
one who wrote the lines, and had in mind what kind of reaction the
line would produce. A line that he thought would create a stir, that
didn't create stir would be something he'd notice, and a line that
created a stir that he hadn't intended would also be something he'd
notice. That "stir" could be so minor that ordinary members of the
audience wouldn't notice.

Each line or group of lines, to him, would have been crafted for
effect. Any variance in reception would be something he'd notice.

I watched the interview also, but don't think he implied that the
audience was shocked. More piqued, perhaps, than he had anticipated.
I recorded the show, but I deleted the show after watching so I can't
go back and find his exact comment.

[charles]

In article <g2qgan...@mid.individual.net>, LFS

I had the great privilege of working with Bill Pertwee on a show at the
Imperial War Museum - Stars in Battledress (about 30 years ago). Most of
us have probably heard of ENSA, but they were civilians and never went near
any fighting. SiB were in the armed forces and even performed in Normandy
of Dday+!.

[Peter Moylan]

On 18/10/18 15:19, LFS wrote:
>
> But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important
> point is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to
> understand comedy if you appreciate the social, political and
> economic climate in which it is invented. You had to be a child of
> 1950s Britain to get the Goons and I would argue that you needed to
> have watched TW3 and read early issues of Private Eye to really grasp
> the anarchy of Python.

Monty Python did very well in Australia. More or less at the same time
the Aunty Jack show, in a similarly surreal style, was also a big
success. I don't think that one was exported but I suspect it would have
done well in Britain.

I liked the Goons sometimes, but much of the time I found the accents
too difficult to follow.

Other British comedies that did well in Australia were Peter Cook and
Dudley Moore, Benny Hill, The Two Ronnies, and (most especially) Dave Allen.

Two early TV comedy shows that still stick in my mind were The Mavis
Bramston Show (Australian) and Laugh-In (American). The style of Mavis
Bramston was, I think, compatible with British tastes, but the content
was too focused on current affairs to be portable to other countries.
Now and then I enjoyed Laugh-In, but I always got the feeling that it
was designed for people with short attention spans.

[RHDraney]

On 10/18/2018 12:50 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> Two early TV comedy shows that still stick in my mind were The Mavis
> Bramston Show (Australian) and Laugh-In (American). The style of Mavis
> Bramston was, I think, compatible with British tastes, but the content
> was too focused on current affairs to be portable to other countries.
> Now and then I enjoyed Laugh-In, but I always got the feeling that it
> was designed for people with short attention spans.

That was deliberate...George "CFG" Schlatter used to wander the set
muttering "keep it moving, keep it moving"...like the later "Airplane!"
series of movies, the idea was to allow no time for the last laugh to
die down before moving on to the next....

Schlatter and his wife were close friends of Ernie Kovacs and his wife,
and there was even one Laugh-In episode where a blackout gag was
followed by Dan and Dick identifying Kovacs as the inspiration of the
style...he was an early genius of American televised comedy, always
working to use the medium for things that couldn't be done on film with
the technology of his era....r

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> posted:

>On 18/10/18 15:19, LFS wrote:
>>
>> But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important
>> point is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to
>> understand comedy if you appreciate the social, political and
>> economic climate in which it is invented. You had to be a child of
>> 1950s Britain to get the Goons and I would argue that you needed to
>> have watched TW3 and read early issues of Private Eye to really grasp
>> the anarchy of Python.
>
>Monty Python did very well in Australia. More or less at the same time
>the Aunty Jack show, in a similarly surreal style, was also a big
>success. I don't think that one was exported but I suspect it would have
>done well in Britain.
>
>I liked the Goons sometimes, but much of the time I found the accents
>too difficult to follow.
>
>Other British comedies that did well in Australia were Peter Cook and
>Dudley Moore, Benny Hill, The Two Ronnies, and (most especially) Dave Allen.

Though Dave Allen was Irish. And I'm trying to find a delicate way to
say I'd heard Tony Hancock went down well in Australia.

The surprise of surprises is to find that the Chinese thought Norman
Wisdom was the bee's knees in comedy.

>
>Two early TV comedy shows that still stick in my mind were The Mavis
>Bramston Show (Australian) and Laugh-In (American). The style of Mavis
>Bramston was, I think, compatible with British tastes, but the content
>was too focused on current affairs to be portable to other countries.
>Now and then I enjoyed Laugh-In, but I always got the feeling that it
>was designed for people with short attention spans.
>

A bit too quick-fire for me - maybe it's what one's used to. For some
reason I enjoyed it most for the visuals - Judy Carne and Goldie Hawn.
--
Paul

[charles]

In article <OHxure1Y...@wolff.co.uk>,

Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> posted:
> >On 18/10/18 15:19, LFS wrote:
> >>
> >> But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important
> >> point is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to
> >> understand comedy if you appreciate the social, political and
> >> economic climate in which it is invented. You had to be a child of
> >> 1950s Britain to get the Goons and I would argue that you needed to
> >> have watched TW3 and read early issues of Private Eye to really grasp
> >> the anarchy of Python.
> >
> >Monty Python did very well in Australia. More or less at the same time
> >the Aunty Jack show, in a similarly surreal style, was also a big
> >success. I don't think that one was exported but I suspect it would have
> >done well in Britain.
> >
> >I liked the Goons sometimes, but much of the time I found the accents
> >too difficult to follow.
> >
> >Other British comedies that did well in Australia were Peter Cook and
> >Dudley Moore, Benny Hill, The Two Ronnies, and (most especially) Dave
> >Allen.

> Though Dave Allen was Irish. And I'm trying to find a delicate way to
> say I'd heard Tony Hancock went down well in Australia.

he was not as good on tv as he was on the radio.

> The surprise of surprises is to find that the Chinese thought Norman
> Wisdom was the bee's knees in comedy.
> >
> >Two early TV comedy shows that still stick in my mind were The Mavis
> >Bramston Show (Australian) and Laugh-In (American). The style of Mavis
> >Bramston was, I think, compatible with British tastes, but the content
> >was too focused on current affairs to be portable to other countries.
> >Now and then I enjoyed Laugh-In, but I always got the feeling that it
> >was designed for people with short attention spans.
> >
> A bit too quick-fire for me - maybe it's what one's used to. For some
> reason I enjoyed it most for the visuals - Judy Carne and Goldie Hawn.

sock it to me?

[phil]

On 18/10/2018 10:31, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> The surprise of surprises is to find that the Chinese thought Norman
> Wisdom was the bee's knees in comedy.

And he was a cult figure in Albania, I understand.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:31:04 GMT, Paul Wolff
<boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

[].

>
> The surprise of surprises is to find that the Chinese thought Norman
> Wisdom was the bee's knees in comedy.

There's a statue to him in Albania, I think
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Wisdom#Popularity_in_Albania
(doesn't say, doesn't mention China either)

[he had a near monopoly on entertainment there]


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Peter Moylan]

On 18/10/18 20:43, charles wrote:
> In article <OHxure1Y...@wolff.co.uk>, Paul Wolff
> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

[Laugh-In]

>> A bit too quick-fire for me - maybe it's what one's used to. For
>> some reason I enjoyed it most for the visuals - Judy Carne and
>> Goldie Hawn.
>
> sock it to me?

Ah, so that's the origin. My mail server replies to the DATA command
with the words "socket to me", but I'd forgotten why I made it do that.

[Peter Moylan]

On 18/10/18 20:31, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
> posted:

>> Other British comedies that did well in Australia were Peter Cook
>> and Dudley Moore, Benny Hill, The Two Ronnies, and (most
>> especially) Dave Allen.
>
> Though Dave Allen was Irish.

After talking to various Irish people about comedy, I've formed the
clear impression that Irish and Australian people have similar senses of
humour.

I still remember a conversation I had with an Irish man I once met in
Italy. (We turned out to have the same surname, and that was sufficient
excuse to go out for a few drinks together.)

"So do Australians have big cultural heroes, like the Americans talk
about their presidents?"
"Well, I suppose our best-known historical heroes are a bushranger and a
racehorse."
"Ah, that's very Irish."

> And I'm trying to find a delicate way to say I'd heard Tony Hancock
> went down well in Australia.

My mental ear returns a rapidly-spoken "Hancock's Half Hour", but I'm
sorry to say that that's all I can remember about his radio show. I must
have listened to it at the time, at least some of the time.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not that I know of. Derek Cook and Clive Moore?

> > Need I remind you that your obsession with drag has never crossed the
> > Atlantic?
> > Last night on Colbert, Lin-Manuel Miranda described the London premiere
> > of *Hamilton*. One thing that struck him was that the British audience
> > reacted to mildly racy lines that no one in any US audience had ever
> > had any reaction at all to -- Burr (I think he said it was) sings that
> > he kept her bed warm while her husband was away, and the British audience
> > found that shocking, or something (I didn't know how to interpret the
> > reaction he described). (He was sitting with Harry and Megan. She had
> > seen the show, he hadn't. He was a bit concerned about the campy portrayal
> > of his "six-greats-grandfather," but reported that when the show was first
> > running at the Public Theater, Helen Mirren had assured him that British
> > audiences love to see the royals "take the piss" and he shouldn't worry.
>
> I watched that interview and was totally bemused. The night I saw
> Hamilton in London there was no reaction like that he described.
>
> But I did see Spamalot in both New York and in London and was very
> puzzled by the US audience reaction. They laughed in quite different places.

I recall laughing pretty much throughout.

You can probably answer, then, whether David Hyde-Pierce's acrobatic
antics involving the piano were unique to him, or could be duplicated
by any other performer?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 12:19:16 AM UTC-4, LFS wrote:

> But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important point
> is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to understand comedy
> if you appreciate the social, political and economic climate in which it
> is invented. You had to be a child of 1950s Britain to get the Goons and
> I would argue that you needed to have watched TW3 and read early issues
> of Private Eye to really grasp the anarchy of Python.
>
> And although I watched US TV shows like I Love Lucy I never understood
> what was funny about them and they never made me laugh, until Rhoda.

Well that's the whole point, innit.

I don't remember whether Rhoda was explicitly Jewish, but she certainly
embodied all the characteristics of Jewish humor, which might help
explain her international appeal. Plus Nancy Walker!

[Peter T. Daniels]

He also said that he will be in the Puerto Rico production that begins
a national tour and so was noticing which lines and lyrics he remembered
perfectly and which he didn't -- he's only going to have about ten days
to rehearse.

> Each line or group of lines, to him, would have been crafted for
> effect. Any variance in reception would be something he'd notice.
>
> I watched the interview also, but don't think he implied that the
> audience was shocked. More piqued, perhaps, than he had anticipated.
> I recorded the show, but I deleted the show after watching so I can't
> go back and find his exact comment.

"piqued"? What does that mean?

[charles]

In article <pq9q6s$llr$1...@dont-email.me>,

in HHH, wasn't his mate Bill an Aussie?

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 17:52:41 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 12:32:54 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 17:21:49 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 12:14:06 PM UTC-4, charles wrote:
> > > > In article <876493c3-bf52-497a...@googlegroups.com>, Peter
> > > > T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:19:03 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
> > > > > > In article <4f20ffac-d972-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>,

> > > > > > Beyond the Fringe did appear in NY but off Broadway, I think. There,
> > > > > > Alan
> > > > > Once again, too young.
> > > > > > Bennett heard a waiter refer to it as "Behind the Fridge". The other
> > > > > > comment was that luckily they weren't classed as a "musical" so they
> > > > > > only had to have 6 pit musicians!
> > > > > > BUt what has Beyond the Fringe to do with Peter Sellars? Nothing
> > > > > See reply to Laura. BtF and the Goon Show are very alike. And they begat
> > > > > Monty Python.
> > > > They are nothing like each other. The only "begat" is that Peter Cooke,
> > > > Jonathan Miller & some of the Pythons were members of the Cambridge
> > > > University Footlights (as was I).
> > > Maybe you're too close for an overview.
> >
> > Or maybe you're just wrong. Beyond the Fringe and the Goon Show
> > are chalk and cheese. And although Eric Idle admits in his recent book
> > to having learnt Beyond the Fringe by heart he also says that it is
> > ridiculous to see Python as the child of any particular forerunners
> > because it is such a unique confluence of six utterly different comic
> > minds.
>

> Ri-i-i-i-ight.
>
> He was on Colbert this week -- they showed a "movie" that he directed,
> before they were called "videos," for a pop song -- the style, though
> not the imagery, was very much Monty Python.
>
> [not directly relevant; he was selling his new book]
>
> And John Cleese played Minnie Driver's cold and distant father on the
> first two episodes of *Speechless*. Not a particularly comic part.

How on Earth did you get 'cold and distant' out of that. Anything
but!

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 21:48:28 UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 00:04:23 +0100, Paul Wolff

> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> posted:
> >>On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 3:40:47 PM UTC-4, arthu...@gmail.com wrote:

> >>> It seems to me that Peter Sellers did some interesting work in accent
> >>>imitation.
> >>> I had no idea that Vivien Leigh was British!
> >>
> >>I don't think Sellers was imitating (except presumably in Dr Strangelove)
> >>so much as inventing a new accent for a new persona.
> >
> >No, Peter Sellers was brilliant at transforming himself into someone
> >else's stereotype, by his speech. It wasn't imitation - it was immersion
> >carried to a tiny excess, on the edge of parody or caricature. He had a
> >huge range of personas to draw on.
> >
> >The only invention of his I can think of right now is the character of
> >Bluebottle, in The Goon Show, a cult BBC comedy radio entertainment of
> >the 1950s, but even Bluebottle was, so I heard, modelled on a Boy Scout
> >whose peculiar way of speaking Sellers had observed and stockpiled for
> >future use.
> >

> >Ah, the Goon show - a range of characters seemingly at least as broad as
> >the Muppets, all voiced by three or four actors: Spike Milligan who
> >wrote it, Peter Sellers, Harry Secombe, and Michael Bentine in some
> >early shows.
>
>
>

> Unlike Peter Sellers, Harry Secomb played only one role--Neddy
> Seagoon.
>
> I was a big Goon Show fan, and I thought I had heard most of them. But
> I've never hear of Michael Bentine.

Bentine was a founder member but left after completing Series 2
it is assumed because of a falling out with Milligan. As there are
virtually no recordings left from these series it's not at all unlikely
that you have heard "most of them" without encountering a
Bentine appearance.

[Peter Moylan]

Still no fucking eye deer.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Yes, although Bill Kerr who played him was, like Sid James, originally
from South Africa.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Irritated (as though poked with a sharp stick) from Fr. pierce, prick,
sting. There's a lot of it about!

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

On Thursday, 18 October 2018 12:59:36 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 12:19:16 AM UTC-4, LFS wrote:
>
> > But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important point
> > is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to understand comedy
> > if you appreciate the social, political and economic climate in which it
> > is invented. You had to be a child of 1950s Britain to get the Goons and
> > I would argue that you needed to have watched TW3 and read early issues
> > of Private Eye to really grasp the anarchy of Python.
> >
> > And although I watched US TV shows like I Love Lucy I never understood
> > what was funny about them and they never made me laugh, until Rhoda.
>
> Well that's the whole point, innit.
>
> I don't remember whether Rhoda was explicitly Jewish,

You don't remember if Rhoda Morgenstern, from New York, whose
Jewishness was often the central theme of episodes in The Mary
Tyler Moore Show, which also featured the Morganstern parents
renewing their wedding vows in the presence of a rabbi was
'explicitly' Jewish? Oy vey!

[Jerry Friedman]

On 10/17/18 7:57 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 18/10/18 11:09, bill van wrote:
>> On 2018-10-17 22:26:26 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 17:22:03 -0400, Horace LaBadie
>>> <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> <14902f4c-322c-4dfd...@googlegroups.com>, Jerry
>>>> Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And let's not forget "Honey Bun" in /South Pacific/, which
>>>>> suggests that cross-dressing was a routine part of amateur
>>>>> entertainment.  After all, it takes clothes but no talent.
>>>>> (Talent does improve it.)
>>>>
>>>> Sgt. Shapiro in Stalag 17 pretending to be Betty Grable, with mop
>>>> wig, for Animal.
>>>
>>> And Klinger in M.A.S.H. sort of.  Klinger's cross-dressing was
>>> done for purpose, though, and a ploy to get him discharged as
>>> insane.
>>
>> We're drifting in the direction of the Catch-22 thread.
>
> Especially since Klinger's ploy didn't work. Attempting to get out of
> the war zone was seen as proof of his sanity.

I don't remember that, but then there's a lot of that show I don't
remember, though I liked it. I hope the writers put in some kind of
reference to /Catch-22/.

I do remember that the end of Klinger's ploy was that Dr. Sidney (no
relation) Friedman said he'd sign the forms for Klinger's discharge, but
Klinger would have a permanent record that he was a homosexual and a
transvestite. Klinger decided he didn't want that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 10/17/18 10:19 PM, LFS wrote:
...

> But beneath all this ridiculous PTDsplaining I think an important point
> is being illustrated. It is perhaps only possible to understand comedy
> if you appreciate the social, political and economic climate in which it
> is invented. You had to be a child of 1950s Britain to get the Goons and
> I would argue that you needed to have watched TW3 and read early issues
> of Private Eye to really grasp the anarchy of Python.
>
> And although I watched US TV shows like I Love Lucy I never understood
> what was funny about them and they never made me laugh,

Me neither. Isn't that why they had laugh tracks?

> until Rhoda.
...
Didn't see much of that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 10/17/18 9:20 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 6:54:19 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:26:28 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

[travesty]

>>> And Klinger in M.A.S.H. sort of. Klinger's cross-dressing was done
>>> for purpose, though, and a ploy to get him discharged as insane.
>>

>> But the only reason it was funny, to the extent that it was, was
>> cross-dressing.
>
> Klinger was no Radar.
...

In the sense that the character was less interesting and played by a
less good actor?

By the way, Gary Burghoff played Radar's mother in a home movie she sent
him. I don't think I realized that at the time, whether it was in the
credits or not.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

On Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:57:40 UTC+1, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 10/17/18 9:20 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 6:54:19 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:26:28 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> [travesty]
>
> >>> And Klinger in M.A.S.H. sort of. Klinger's cross-dressing was done
> >>> for purpose, though, and a ploy to get him discharged as insane.
> >>
> >> But the only reason it was funny, to the extent that it was, was
> >> cross-dressing.
> >
> > Klinger was no Radar.
> ...
>
> In the sense that the character was less interesting and played by a
> less good actor?

Clearly not an opinion shared by many. Klinger was a lead in After MASH,
(30 episodes) while Radar made mere cameo appearances. And Jamie
Farr has been continuously in work on TV and film since MASH while
Gary Burghoff struggled for parts and, but for a film role in 2010 in
which his acting is said by many a critic to be cringeworthy, effectively
disappeared in 1995.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 3:50:14 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Monty Python did very well in Australia. More or less at the same time
> the Aunty Jack show, in a similarly surreal style, was also a big
> success. I don't think that one was exported but I suspect it would have
> done well in Britain.
>
> I liked the Goons sometimes, but much of the time I found the accents
> too difficult to follow.
>
> Other British comedies that did well in Australia were Peter Cook and
> Dudley Moore, Benny Hill, The Two Ronnies, and (most especially) Dave Allen.

The last three had brief runs on PBS (which also showed the perennial
favorites Monty Python, Are You Being Served?, and (later) Keeping Up
Appearances and As Time Goes By. The brief runs suggest they weren't
popular, and on PBS popularity can be measured by the number of viewers
who pledge their donations to Public Television during each show during
Pledge Month.

> Two early TV comedy shows that still stick in my mind were The Mavis
> Bramston Show (Australian) and Laugh-In (American). The style of Mavis
> Bramston was, I think, compatible with British tastes, but the content
> was too focused on current affairs to be portable to other countries.
> Now and then I enjoyed Laugh-In, but I always got the feeling that it
> was designed for people with short attention spans.

Laugh-In is now being shown on the Decades nostalgia network. I sampled
it a couple of times and it's astonishingly frenetic. (Loved it in the
original.) Its style was entirely new to us -- it long predates music
videos, which adopted some of its techniques -- but it wasn't nearly
so political as the contemporaneous Smothers Brothers, who were in
perennial trouble with CBS and got cancelled far too soon. (Tommy
Smothers, the one with the "dumb one" persona, was actually most of the
brains behind the act. Dick was the straight man. Puts a whole new spin
on George & Gracie. To the end of his life, George would never break the
fourth wall as to Gracie's off-screen personality.)

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <a21baacf-6b25-46f4...@googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> They never addressed the fact that Harry Morgan had guested as a crazy
> general once several seasons before he became Colonel Potter. No one,
> for instance, did a double-take when he was introduced.

It's a rare but not unknown casting decision to bring back a guest star
as a series regular. Both Wesley Lau and Richard Anderson were
defendants on Perry Mason before they were cast as homicide lieutenants
(Lt. Andy Anderson and Lt. Drumm, respectively) after Ray Collins became
too ill to continue on the show. In the eighties, Dennis Franz played a
guest starring role as Det. Benedetto on Hill Street Blues before coming
back as Det. Norman Buntz. And in the nineties both Nancy Stafford and
Brynn Thayer were guests on Matlock before returning as Matlock's
associates and co-stars.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Has anything _ever_ topped the Nairobi Trio?

[Peter T. Daniels]

I saw the second episode but not the first. I had to give *The Cool Kids*
a chance.

[Janet]

In article <pqa2lc$6t2$1...@news.albasani.net>, jerry_f...@yahoo.com
says...

Not surprisingly. Even after "blue discharge" ended, homosexuals were
discharged from USA service rated either "dishonourable" or
"undesirable", a blight on civilianlife and employment.

Janet.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 05:25:59 +0100, LFS <lauraDRA...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 17/10/2018 23:40, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> posted:

>>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 00:04:23 +0100, Paul Wolff
>>> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> posted:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 3:40:47 PM UTC-4, arthu...@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:20:17 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels

>> Ah well, he was a Peruvian Englishman, and you don't hear much of them,
>> unlike his compatriot Paddington Bear. He later became a mad professor
>> on children's television.
>>
>> There must have been something about the second world war that made many
>> talented Englishmen crazy.
>
><smile>
>
>I'm sure that PhD theses must have been written on the influence of WW2
>experiences on the British entertainment industry. Galton and Simpson
>met in a TB sanatorium, places where, judging by my mother's experience,
>many creative people seem to have been incarcerated.

I wonder whether incarceration spurs creative people into behaving
creatively? If the incarceratees have nothing to do all day it is the
creative people who will be among those who will find something to do.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2018-10-18 00:40:31 +0200, Paul Wolff

<boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> said:

> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> posted:
>>

>> [ ... ]

>>
>> Unlike Peter Sellers, Harry Secomb played only one role--Neddy
>> Seagoon.
>>
>> I was a big Goon Show fan, and I thought I had heard most of them. But
>> I've never hear of Michael Bentine.
>>
> Ah well, he was a Peruvian Englishman, and you don't hear much of them,
> unlike his compatriot Paddington Bear. He later became a mad professor
> on children's television.
>
> There must have been something about the second world war that made
> many talented Englishmen crazy.

Well, Michael Bentine participated in the liberation of Bergen-Belsen.
That could drive a many sane people over the edge. He was nearly killed
by an incompetent vaccination, earlier. I wonder if the anti-vaxers
know about that.

Also a friend of the Quackmaster-in-Chief.


--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 9:17:13 AM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 October 2018 13:02:16 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 12:50:54 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > > On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 04:55:40 +0100, LFS <lauraDRA...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:

[No, I did.]

Why would an English audience be "irritated" by a line about a lover
keeping his mistress's bed warm while her husband was away?

[Peter T. Daniels]

No, I do not remember specifics about a series I saw -- intermittently;
I did not have a TV during at least some of its run -- between 44 and
40 years ago. I also did not see every episode of The Mary Tyler Moore
Show, most notoriously the Death of Chuckles the Clown episode.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not *I Love Lucy* -- much of the fodder used by the inventor of the
original laugh track machine came from *I Love Lucy* audience reactions.
For years afterward, you could hear the lady who went "Uh-oh!" when Lucy
led onto the stage a baby elephant.