How do you pronounce "Titian"?
tony cooper
News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
I may never have said that name, but I'd probably rhyme it with
"Grecian". Second choice, like the second half of "competition". But
that second choice is AHD's only choice.
--
Jerry Friedman
Arcadian Rises
According to MW online, it rhymes with fission and mission.
But I believe it should be three syllables, no matter how you choose
to pronounce them.
Roland Hutchinson
I'm with the AHD.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Mark Brader
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
So do I. Accent on the TISH.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
"Have you ever heard [my honesty] questioned?"
"I never even heard it mentioned." -- Every Day's a Holiday
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like you, I may never have said the name, not recently, anyway, but I'd
go for rhymining it with "competition".
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Why? We don't use the Italian spelling, so why try to imitate the
Italian pronuciation? Do you pronounce "Venice" as four syllables?
> no matter how you choose
> to pronounce them.
--
athel
Pierre Jelenc
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
Like a mor-less mortician...
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
Joachim Pense
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>
I am surprised that this spelling is used in English. The Italian
pronouncaition should suggest Tee-tsee-ahn
Joachim
tony cooper
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>Am 23.02.2011 03:49, schrieb tony cooper:
>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>
>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>>
>
>I am surprised that this spelling is used in English.
What spelling? The spelling "Titian" is what I used, but what BBC
uses I don't know. As I said, I heard it on BBC World News.
>The Italian
>pronouncaition should suggest Tee-tsee-ahn
>
>Joachim
>
>
--
Dr Peter Young
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
When Titian was mixing rose madder
His model posed, nude, on a ladder.
Her position, to Titian,
Suggested coition,
So he climbed up the ladder and had her.
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Nasti J
> Tony Cooper:
>
> > How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> > News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> So do I. Accent on the TISH.
do you also say MARSH-ee-an?
the Omrud
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
tish'n
--
David
John Holmes
Bless you!
James Hogg
Gerundheit!
--
James
Lanarcam
Dominic Bojarski
The English name is not based on the Italian name, but on the Latin
version of it.
Dominic
James Silverton
I don't have much occasion to actually speak the word but I think I'd go
along with BBC World News. Perhaps someone could tell me how an Italian
would say Tiziano?
--
James Silverton, Potomac
Note: obvious change in "Reply To"
Roland Hutchinson
/titsi'a:no/, roughly, at least in recent centuries and in Tuscan.
Stan Brown
>
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
In my speech it rhymes with Russian: Rush'n, Tish'n.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
Stan Brown
Do even the Italians? Three syllables I can see, but four???
Urs Beeli
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:14:19 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> > On 2011-02-23 04:29:36 +0100, Arcadian Rises <Arcadi...@aol.com> said:
> > > But I believe it should be three syllables,
> >
> > Why? We don't use the Italian spelling, so why try to imitate the
> > Italian pronuciation? Do you pronounce "Venice" as four syllables?
>
> Do even the Italians? Three syllables I can see, but four???
Ve-ne-zi-a
Cheers
/urs
--
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine."
-- Urs Beeli, Switzerland, AusE
tony cooper
wrote:
That could represent what I heard on BBCWN. I thought the speaker
drew it out a little, but your visual representation could be it.
The reason I noticed this is that I'm currently reading a novel about
an art dealer who has sold a Titian to a museum. The word has stopped
me every time I've come across it in the book because I don't know how
to pronounce it. While I don't read aloud (or move my lips), it's
distracting to read a word that I don't know how to pronounce.
The news report was about Scotland's purchase of Titian's "Diana and
Actaeon".
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:14:19 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> On 2011-02-23 04:29:36 +0100, Arcadian Rises <Arcadi...@aol.com> said:
>>> But I believe it should be three syllables,
>>
>> Why? We don't use the Italian spelling, so why try to imitate the
>> Italian pronuciation? Do you pronounce "Venice" as four syllables?
>
> Do even the Italians? Three syllables I can see, but four???
Ve-ne-zi-a. Arcadian seemed to be suggesting that we should follow
Italian spelling in sounding out a name even if the English spelling is
different, but maybe I misunderstood her.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
> On 23 Feb 2011 tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> > News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
> > I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>
> When Titian was mixing rose madder
> His model posed, nude, on a ladder.
> Her position, to Titian,
> Suggested coition,
> So he climbed up the ladder and had her.
That pretty much settles it.
--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
You can prove anything with limericks.
--
James
Default User
news:ik1vjr$4b7$9...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:53:44 -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> On Feb 22, 7:49 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>>
>>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>>
>> I may never have said that name, but I'd probably rhyme it with
>> "Grecian". Second choice, like the second half of "competition". But
>> that second choice is AHD's only choice.
>
> I'm with the AHD.
That's the way I've heard it. I don't know if I've said the word. I don't
usually discuss the artist, or Nancy Drew's hair.
Brian
--
Day 748 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Current music playing: None.
John Dean
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
TISH-n TISH-n (all fall down)
--
John Dean
Oxford
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I've been waiting for that.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
James Hogg
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:36:08 -0000, "John Dean"
> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>
>> tony cooper wrote:
>>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>>
>>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>> TISH-n TISH-n (all fall down)
>
> I've been waiting for that.
I've been hoping people would avoid it like the plague.
--
James
Christian Weisgerber
> >> Why? We don't use the Italian spelling, so why try to imitate the
> >> Italian pronuciation? Do you pronounce "Venice" as four syllables?
> >
> > Do even the Italians? Three syllables I can see, but four???
>
> Ve-ne-zi-a.
I think it's Ve-ne-zia, with the i being unsyllabic or a glide.
The Italian Wikipedia gives /ve'nEtts:ja/.
(The /ts/ is a single affricate. Actually, I think that should be
either /tts/ or /ts:/, depending on analysis, not a separate stop
*and* gemination.)
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
James Hogg
I remember when I was trying to learn to learn Spanish decades ago and
was puzzled by -ia endings. I had read that, unless otherwise indicated
by an accent, the stress was always on the penultimate syllable of words
ending in vowels. I couldn't figure out why Valencia was not pronounced
"Valenc - I - a", or why it was not spelled "Valéncia" to indicate that
it was an exception to the rule. Today I see from Wikipedia that the
ending is pronounced [ja]. In Catalan, however, it is pronounced with
[ia] and consequently requires an accent: València.
--
James
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Feb 22, 9:49 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>
>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>
> According to MW online, it rhymes with fission and mission.
For those who rhyme "fission" and "mission". I pronounce the former
with /Z/, which they list as an "also" pronunciation.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Never attempt to teach a pig to
SF Bay Area (1982-) |sing; it wastes your time and
Chicago (1964-1982) |annoys the pig.
| Robert Heinlein
evan.kir...@gmail.com
Joe Fineman
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC
> World News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
Her position, to Titian
Suggested coition
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: The political animal is a vertebrate: it needs rigidity on :||
||: the inside and flexibility on the outside. :||
Mike Lyle
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Arcadian Rises <Arcadi...@aol.com> writes:
>
>> On Feb 22, 9:49 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>>
>>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>>
>> According to MW online, it rhymes with fission and mission.
>
>For those who rhyme "fission" and "mission". I pronounce the former
>with /Z/, which they list as an "also" pronunciation.
Ah, I've been meaning to ask for years. How did the /Z/ version (word
chosen consciously) of "fission" arise?
--
Mike.
Jerry Friedman
> Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> >>>> Why? We don't use the Italian spelling, so why try to imitate
> >>>> the Italian pronuciation? Do you pronounce "Venice" as four
> >>>> syllables?
> >>> Do even the Italians? Three syllables I can see, but four???
> >> Ve-ne-zi-a.
>
> > I think it's Ve-ne-zia, with the i being unsyllabic or a glide.
I was kind of wondering that. So is "Tiziano" three syllabes or four?
> > The Italian Wikipedia gives /ve'nEtts:ja/. (The /ts/ is a single
> > affricate. Actually, I think that should be either /tts/ or /ts:/,
> > depending on analysis, not a separate stop *and* gemination.)
>
> I remember when I was trying to learn to learn Spanish decades ago and
> was puzzled by -ia endings. I had read that, unless otherwise indicated
> by an accent, the stress was always on the penultimate syllable of words
> ending in vowels. I couldn't figure out why Valencia was not pronounced
> "Valenc - I - a", or why it was not spelled "Val ncia" to indicate that
> it was an exception to the rule. Today I see from Wikipedia that the
> ending is pronounced [ja]. In Catalan, however, it is pronounced with
> [ia] and consequently requires an accent: Val ncia.
In Spanish, combinations of two vowels containing "i" or "u" count as
a single vowel in stress calculations.
Portuguese must work like Catalan, as when we see António Marques
cross-posting from sci.lang.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
Wild speculation: Was it influenced by "fusion"?
Evan Kirshenbaum
That's my guess.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |weighted down with concrete blocks
Chicago (1964-1982) |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
evan.kir...@gmail.com |foul play...
Robert Bannister
> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>
>
"Tishun" for me.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
"Tits yano"?
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On Feb 22, 9:49 pm, tony cooper<tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>
>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>>
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
>
>
> to pronounce them.
So it is a matter of faith. What about us non-believers?
--
Rob Bannister
Stan Brown
>
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:32:27 -0500 Stan Brown wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:14:19 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2011-02-23 04:29:36 +0100, Arcadian Rises <Arcadi...@aol.com> said:
> > > > But I believe it should be three syllables,
> > >
> > > Why? We don't use the Italian spelling, so why try to imitate the
> > > Italian pronuciation? Do you pronounce "Venice" as four syllables?
> >
> > Do even the Italians? Three syllables I can see, but four???
>
> Ve-ne-zi-a
>
> Cheers
> /urs
Grazie!
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:26:27 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > wrote:
>
> >>On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:47:06 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
>
> >>>Arcadian Rises <Arcadianri...@aol.com> writes:
>
> >>>> On Feb 22, 9:49 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC
> >>>>> World News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>
> >>>>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>
> >>>> According to MW online, it rhymes with fission and mission.
>
> >>>For those who rhyme "fission" and "mission". I pronounce the
> >>>former with /Z/, which they list as an "also" pronunciation.
>
> >>Ah, I've been meaning to ask for years. How did the /Z/ version
> >>(word chosen consciously) of "fission" arise?
>
> > Wild speculation: Was it influenced by "fusion"?
>
> That's my guess.
Next: "equation".
--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney
>
>"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:26:27 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Ah, I've been meaning to ask for years. How did the /Z/ version
>>>(word chosen consciously) of "fission" arise?
>>
>> Wild speculation: Was it influenced by "fusion"?
>
>That's my guess.
Alternative explanation: physicists got tired of having to explain to the people
providing the funding that they weren't just heading up to a cabin in the woods,
rowing out into the lake, dropping a line in the water, and drinking beer for
five hours every time they described their work....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Tasha Miller
"the Omrud" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ik2ktq$ebl$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 23/02/2011 02:49, tony cooper wrote:
>> How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>> News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>
>> I don't do that IPA stuff, so sound it out, please.
>
This.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think we're talking about different things. You are asking how an
Italian perceives the Italian pronunciation, and in that case you are
right, but that is not what I was discussing, which is how an
English-speaker perceives the Italian pronunciation, because it arose
out of a discussion of how an English speaker should pronounce
"Titian". I think James puts it very well (in the context of Spanish
and Catalan, but I agree with him that Italian is probably like Spanish
in this respect rather than like Catalan or English). Even after more
than 25 years of hearing Spanish spoken by a native speaker every day I
still "hear" -ia endings as two syllables. I know perfectly well that
no accent is needed on the preceding vowel, but I think of that as a
spelling rule rather than as a reflection of how the sound is perceived
by a native Spanish speaker.
Most Spanish speakers perceive the French ou and u, or German u and ü,
as the same vowel, and make virtually no attempt to distinguish between
them when speaking. (In French novels you can tell without being told
that a character is supposed to be Spanish or Italian because they say
"tou" rather than "tu".[1]) English speakers are not much better --
they can usually perceive a slight difference in sound, but their
efforts to distinguish them when speaking are either feeble or very
forced. After many years of living in France I don't have any
difficulty in hearing the difference, and in easy cases I can make them
sound different, but if they both occur in close proximity as in the
name of Mulhouse, or if both are preceded by r, as in La rue du Dr Roux
(address of the Pasteur Institute) I am lost. However, if speaking
English in an English environment it makes no sense to specify the
address of the Pasteur Institute with a perfect French pronunciation
because it won't be understood. Likewise if you pronounce Titian in an
English environment as an Italian would say it you won't be understood.
[1] You can tell if they're supposed to be German because they replace
p by b: I find that one quite odd because I never have the impression
listening to Germans that they can't distinguish between b and p, but
that does seem to be how French speakers hear them.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Christian Weisgerber wrote:
[ ... ]
>
> I remember when I was trying to learn to learn Spanish decades ago and
> was puzzled by -ia endings. I had read that, unless otherwise indicated
> by an accent, the stress was always on the penultimate syllable of words
> ending in vowels. I couldn't figure out why Valencia was not pronounced
> "Valenc - I - a", or why it was not spelled "Valéncia" to indicate that
> it was an exception to the rule. Today I see from Wikipedia that the
> ending is pronounced [ja]. In Catalan, however, it is pronounced with
> [ia] and consequently requires an accent: València.
As I said in my reply to Christian, I think you're right about all
this. I had wondered why València had an accent in Catalan, but not
sufficiently to ask a Catalan-speaker why. Some years ago I edited a
book published by the University of Valencia, and in referring to it I
write "Universitat de València, Valencia" and always half-expect a
sub-editor to ask why Valencia is spelt in two different ways (or,
worse, to "correct" it), but, at least until now, they seem to realize
that one is part of a name in Catalan and the other is the English name
of a city.
--
athel
R H Draney
>
>
>Some years ago I edited a
>book published by the University of Valencia, and in referring to it I
>worse, to "correct" it), but, at least until now, they seem to realize
>that one is part of a name in Catalan and the other is the English name
>of a city.
See also "Colour by Technicolor"....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Does anyone say that with /S/? Is it the only case of a word in which
-tion is pronounced with /Z/? I can't immediately think others, but
that doesn't mean there aren't any.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
I's a good parallel, but one that occasioned some comment WIWAL.
Is the Technicolor process still used? If so, do they still use
black-and-white film?
--
athel
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
The company still exsists. It is French.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technicolor#Technicolor_today
The process is no longer used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technicolor#The_introduction_of_Eastman_color_and_decline
In 1975, the US dye transfer plant was closed and Technicolor became
an Eastman-only processor. In 1977, the final dye-transfer printer
left in Rome was used by Dario Argento to make prints for his horror
film Suspiria.[citation needed] In 1980, the Italian Technicolor
plant ceased printing dye transfer.
The British line was shut down in 1978 and sold to Beijing Film and
Video Lab in China. A great many films from China and Hong Kong were
made in the Technicolor dye transfer process, including Zhang
Yimou's Ju Dou and even one American film, Space Avenger (1989,
director: Richard W. Haines). The Beijing line was shut down in 1993
for a number of reasons, including inferior processing.
Mike Lyle
<acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2011-02-24 04:00:39 +0100, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> said:
>> On Feb 23, 5:40 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:26:27 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle...@yahoo.co.uk
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:47:06 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
>>>>> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>>>>>> For those who rhyme "fission" and "mission". I pronounce the
>>>>>> former with /Z/, which they list as an "also" pronunciation.
>>>
>>>>> Ah, I've been meaning to ask for years. How did the /Z/ version
>>>>> (word chosen consciously) of "fission" arise?
>>>
>>>> Wild speculation: Was it influenced by "fusion"?
>>>
>>> That's my guess.
>>
>> Next: "equation".
>
>Does anyone say that with /S/? Is it the only case of a word in which
>-tion is pronounced with /Z/? I can't immediately think others, but
>that doesn't mean there aren't any.
It's always /S/ for me, buit I have a suspicion that I'm amphibious
with "version" and "Persian". For "equation" OED places /S/ first.
--
Mike.
Jerry Friedman
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 18:24:56 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 2011-02-24 04:00:39 +0100, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> said:
> >> On Feb 23, 5:40 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
> >>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:26:27 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle...@yahoo.co.uk
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:47:06 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
> >>>>> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >>>>>> For those who rhyme "fission" and "mission". I pronounce the
> >>>>>> former with /Z/, which they list as an "also" pronunciation.
>
> >>>>> Ah, I've been meaning to ask for years. How did the /Z/ version
> >>>>> (word chosen consciously) of "fission" arise?
>
> >>>> Wild speculation: Was it influenced by "fusion"?
>
> >>> That's my guess.
>
> >> Next: "equation".
>
> >Does anyone say that with /S/? Is it the only case of a word in which
> >-tion is pronounced with /Z/? I can't immediately think others, but
> >that doesn't mean there aren't any.
I can't think of any either.
> It's always /S/ for me, buit I have a suspicion that I'm amphibious
> with "version" and "Persian". For "equation" OED places /S/ first.
In an entirely different country, I've never heard "version",
"Persian" or "equation" with /S/. I have no idea how "equation" got
a /A/.
--
Jerry Friedman
Robert Bannister
I seem to remember that even back in Balzac's time, Germans were
characterised by devoicing of most consonants. This is because German
(like Russian and many other languages) really does devoice consonants
at the end of syllables, though not in other positions.
Many English speakers appear to think they are saying a French "u" or
German "ü" by saying "you", which I find amusing.
--
Rob Bannister
Roland Hutchinson
That depends on the dialect. I'm quite a bit out of my depth here as far
as nailing down the details, but I do know that one sees, e.g., the name
"Bach" historically spelled "Pach" by some north-Germans.
Does aspiration as well as voicing play a role, I wonder? (Judging from
my own non-native pronunciation of French and German, it might.)
Someone who know more will be along presently.
> Many English speakers appear to think they are saying a French "u" or
> German "ü" by saying "you", which I find amusing.
Equally amusing: Germans who think they are saying "tram" when they say
"trem" and "handy" when they say "hendy". It's hard to hear, let alone
produce, phonemes that you don't have in your native language, as we all
know--even with training, and certainly without.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Mark Brader
> > > How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
> > > News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
Mark Brader:
> > So do I. Accent on the TISH.
"Gill":
> do you also say MARSH-ee-an?
No.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Common sense isn't any more common on Usenet
m...@vex.net | than it is anywhere else." --Henry Spencer
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:45:57 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>
>>>
>> I seem to remember that even back in Balzac's time, Germans were
>> characterised by devoicing of most consonants. This is because German
>> (like Russian and many other languages) really does devoice consonants
>> at the end of syllables, though not in other positions.
>
> That depends on the dialect. I'm quite a bit out of my depth here as far
> as nailing down the details, but I do know that one sees, e.g., the name
> "Bach" historically spelled "Pach" by some north-Germans.
>
> Does aspiration as well as voicing play a role, I wonder? (Judging from
> my own non-native pronunciation of French and German, it might.)
>
> Someone who know more will be along presently.
>
>> Many English speakers appear to think they are saying a French "u" or
>> German "ü" by saying "you", which I find amusing.
>
> Equally amusing: Germans who think they are saying "tram" when they say
> "trem" and "handy" when they say "hendy". It's hard to hear, let alone
> produce, phonemes that you don't have in your native language, as we all
> know--even with training, and certainly without.
I had it the wrong way round (p instead of b for German characters in
French novels), but you were both too polite to point it out.
Russians also seem to do the same as Germans in relation to a. Many
years ago I went on a school trip to Russia, where, amongst other
things, we visited a school, and heard "Bring beck, bring beck, bring
beck my Bonnie to me" being sung very loudly.
Of course, Germans can say "handy" any way they like, because it isn't
an English word (not in the sense that Germans use it) and is unlikely
to be understood by most English speakers however it is pronounced.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 18:24:56 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2011-02-24 04:00:39 +0100, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> said:
[ ... ]
>>>>
>>>
>>> Next: "equation".
>>
>> Does anyone say that with /S/? Is it the only case of a word in which
>> -tion is pronounced with /Z/? I can't immediately think others, but
>> that doesn't mean there aren't any.
>
> It's always /S/ for me, buit I have a suspicion that I'm amphibious
> with "version" and "Persian". For "equation" OED places /S/ first.
Do they now? They can't have listened to may people saying it.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>On Feb 22, 10:21 pm, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> Tony Cooper:
>>
>> > How do you pronounce "Titian" (Tiziano Vecelli)? Someone on BBC World
>> > News pronounced it (something like) "tish-ee-an".
>>
>> So do I. Accent on the TISH.
>
>
>do you also say MARSH-ee-an?
I've been wondering how if say "Venusian". I think I probably say it
like "ven-ooze-ee-an".
Christian Weisgerber
> Many English speakers appear to think they are saying a French "u" or
> German "ü" by saying "you", which I find amusing.
This reminds me of a question I've been wondering about for some
time: Where does the "long u" [ju] pronunciation of <u> come from
in Latin/French words like <music>? What's the origin of the [j]
glide there? My guess would be that these words were borrowed from
or through French and [y] was approximated with [ju].
The [ju] pronunciation of <ew> is a development from Middle English
diphthongs [ew], [iw], [Ew], but that is clearly not applicable to
Latin/French vocabulary with <u>.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
> > characterised by devoicing of most consonants. This is because German
> > (like Russian and many other languages) really does devoice consonants
> > at the end of syllables, though not in other positions.
>
> That depends on the dialect. I'm quite a bit out of my depth here as far
> as nailing down the details, but I do know that one sees, e.g., the name
> "Bach" historically spelled "Pach" by some north-Germans.
>
> Does aspiration as well as voicing play a role, I wonder? (Judging from
> my own non-native pronunciation of French and German, it might.)
In English, stops like /p/ and /b/ are mostly distinguished by
aspiration rather than voicing in initial position. I think over
on sci.lang Nathan Sanders stated--and had the spectrum data to
back it up--that the word-initial phonetic realization of English
/b/ is in fact the same as French /p/, a voiceless unaspirated stop.
Standard German is like English in this respect. I think the only
difference in aspiration is that final stops are also aspirated in
German, but not in English.
In practice, the exact German pronunciation of stops is a huge mess
due to regional varieties that realize the "voiced"-"voiceless"
distinction in different ways or not at all, depending on position.
Mark Brader
> I've been wondering how if say "Venusian". I think I probably say it
> like "ven-ooze-ee-an".
Well, I say "v'-NOOSH-yan", where OO is long as in boot. But I don't
know if I've ever heard anyone else say it.
--
Mark Brader "How many pessimists end up by desiring
Toronto the things they fear, in order to prove
m...@vex.net that they are right." -- Robert Mallet
Mike Lyle
<acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2011-02-24 22:33:27 +0100, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 18:24:56 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2011-02-24 04:00:39 +0100, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> said:
>[ ... ]
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Next: "equation".
>>>
>>> Does anyone say that with /S/? Is it the only case of a word in which
>>> -tion is pronounced with /Z/? I can't immediately think others, but
>>> that doesn't mean there aren't any.
>>
>> It's always /S/ for me, buit I have a suspicion that I'm amphibious
>> with "version" and "Persian". For "equation" OED places /S/ first.
>
>Do they now? They can't have listened to may people saying it.
I don't think my pronunciation is unusual, but it isn't a word I hear
spoken very often. If you're right that /Z/ is more common, OED may
simply have fossilized an older standard: it does that from time to
time...aha! I find that COD9, from 1995, gives /only/ your /Z/
version, while COD5, 1964, has only /S/, in which it follows OED1.
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
>Peter Duncanson:
>> I've been wondering how if say "Venusian". I think I probably say it
>> like "ven-ooze-ee-an".
>
>Well, I say "v'-NOOSH-yan", where OO is long as in boot. But I don't
>know if I've ever heard anyone else say it.
I think I say "v'nyoosian". It's a word some people say quite often.
--
Mike.
R H Draney
Unfortunately, the correct term (I've just been going through a book of demonyms
called "Labels for Locals") for someone from Venus is "Venerian"....r
Stan Brown
What about the pronunciation of "Ghanaian" (which I always think
should be simply "Ghanan", though I know it's not)?
Stan Brown
That's what I thought too, but Google has almost ten times as many
hits for "Venusian" as for "Venerian". AHD4 lists "Venusian" but not
"Venerian".
Mark Brader
>>>> I've been wondering how if say "Venusian".
R.H. Draney:
> Unfortunately, the correct term (I've just been going through a book
> of demonyms called "Labels for Locals") for someone from Venus is
> "Venerian".
Yeah, that's what you claimed in September too. (And that's how you
spelled it then, too.) And I posted this (quoted from memory) from
Arthur C. Clarke:
The adjective for Venus presents grave linguistic problems.
"Venusian" is unacceptable to purists; "Venerean" raises false
expectations; "Cytherean" is correct but no one understands
what it means. Take your choice.
"Venusian", dammit. This is English.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
"Insecurity is the norm. If any ... voting machine, operating system,
[or] database ... is ever built completely vulnerability-free, it'll
be the first time in the history of mankind." --Bruce Schneier
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:37:14 +0000, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:23:27 -0800 (PST), Nasti J <njgi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >do you also say MARSH-ee-an?
>>
>> I've been wondering how if say "Venusian". I think I probably say it
>> like "ven-ooze-ee-an".
>
>
>What about the pronunciation of "Ghanaian" (which I always think
>should be simply "Ghanan", though I know it's not)?
My parents lived in Ghana for some years so the word is familiar in my
family. We pronounced the "naian" ending as "nay-un" were the "u" is
indistinct and "nay" rhymes with say, weigh, lay, &c.
The OED gives this (** mark letters as bold):
g - ah - n - ay - ? - n
IPA Sounds like
g g as in *g*o
?? ah as in b*ar*n, p*al*m
?n n as in *n*ine (main stress)
e? ay as in b*ay*
? ? as in *a*noth*e*r (schwa)
n n as in *n*ine
ISTR that Ghanaians tend to pronounce the first "a" with the shorter
vowel sound of "sat" (BrE pronunciation).
R H Draney
>
>What about the pronunciation of "Ghanaian" (which I always think
>should be simply "Ghanan", though I know it's not)?
Audience member: "What do you call the inhabitants of Ghana?"
Steve Allen: "Ghaniffs."
James Silverton
> Stan Brown filted:
>>
>> What about the pronunciation of "Ghanaian" (which I always think
>> should be simply "Ghanan", though I know it's not)?
>
> Audience member: "What do you call the inhabitants of Ghana?"
> Steve Allen: "Ghaniffs."
>
they used it to make hundreds of dollars' worth of phone calls to Ghana.
Still, I did not have any real problems convincing the company of what
had happened.
--
James Silverton, Potomac
"Not": obvious change in "Reply To"
Christian Weisgerber
> The adjective for Venus presents grave linguistic problems.
> "Venusian" is unacceptable to purists; "Venerean" raises false
> expectations; "Cytherean" is correct but no one understands
> what it means. Take your choice.
>
> "Venusian", dammit. This is English.
Robert A. Heinlein used "Venerian" in _Space Cadet_ and _Between
Planets_.
R H Draney
>
>Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
>> The adjective for Venus presents grave linguistic problems.
>> "Venusian" is unacceptable to purists; "Venerean" raises false
>> expectations; "Cytherean" is correct but no one understands
>> what it means. Take your choice.
>>
>> "Venusian", dammit. This is English.
>
>Robert A. Heinlein used "Venerian" in _Space Cadet_ and _Between
>Planets_.
I assume Mark would also refer to "Jupiterians" (and closer to home,
"Iraqians")....r
Stan Brown
> My parents lived in Ghana for some years so the word is familiar in my
> family. We pronounced the "naian" ending as "nay-un" were the "u" is
> indistinct and "nay" rhymes with say, weigh, lay, &c.
Interesting. I wouldn't have expected "-nah-ee-@n" (@ = schwa), but
I would have expected "-nye-@n".
I'm always forgetting to check AHD4 first. It lists "-n@-y@n" and
your pronunciation, separated by a comma, which I think denotes equal
preference. It also lists an alternative Ghanian, pronounced GAH-
nee-@en, that I've never heard or seen in print.
Stan Brown
>
> Stan Brown filted:
> >
> >What about the pronunciation of "Ghanaian" (which I always think
> >should be simply "Ghanan", though I know it's not)?
>
> Audience member: "What do you call the inhabitants of Ghana?"
> Steve Allen: "Ghaniffs."
>
> ....r
Tee-hee.
For members of the group who may not know, "goniff" is Yiddish for a
thief or dishonest person, and in New York City and Hollywood is used
by English speakers as a general term of disapproval, not necessarily
implying actual dishonesty. "That goniff promised the script for
last Monday and I still haven't seen page one."
compared to, say, "schlep" or "schlemiel", it's not widely known in
American English.