Return of Callisto -- comments and analysis

[Glaurung]

First

Some

spoiler

space

for

those

new

fans

who

are

cursed

with

wgn

and

have

not

seen

this

one

yet.

Right. General comments first

Is it my imagination, or is there nobody in the universe of Xena who owns
more than one suit of clothes? Callisto is in jail, but she is _still_
dressed in the same outfit (even though you'd think the jailers would have
taken it from her because everybody knows how good a warrior's outfit is
for hiding concealed weapons). Perdicus appears to have only the one
outfit, and as for Gabrielle, not only does she get right back into that
BGSB first thing the morning after the wedding, but during the wedding,
you can see that she is wearing her usual traveling boots on her feet
instead of something that would clash less with the wedding dress (heck,
barefeet would have done if she already spent all the dinars she had on
the dress). At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Gabrielle, get
a fashion consultant, *please*.

As for the BGSB, I have come to the conclusion that it is in reality an
alien parasite which has started growing on her body and which not even
Xena has the skill to cure. This explains why Xena was trying to rip it
off in ADITL (and you thought it was just a convenient handle!), and it
also explains why it seems to never go away -- not for a honeymoon, not
for an amazon coronation, not for nothing.

While we are on the subject of costumes. Joxer's, uh, kitchen utensil
/head covering thingie. He took it off for the wedding. Will wonders
never cease!? Carmen (on Xenaverse)is correct on this one. With it, he
strikes me as a living cartoon, an annoying paradidactic bit of
anamatronics straight out of Jim Henson's fevered brain. Without it, he
is still annoyingly Joxer (alas), but suddenly it becomes possible to see
him as a *human being*. As Velaska would say, like the BGSB, it just has
got to go. I see a scene for a future episode -- Joxer pisses off, say,
Atalanta. Instead of beating the crap out of him (why bother?), she rips
that thing on his head off and stomps it flatter than a pancake (alas, the
same fate cannot work with the armor he wears, since from the looks of it,
it started out as a couple of colanders that got stomped by a giant and
has already been flattened). And if TPTB go with this, we can hear Xena
sing "Burial" again as Joxer tearfully cremates his headgear. Sounds good
to me.

Well, it is sort of required to say something about the wedding scene, and
the kiss. Seems to me that Xena couldn't quite make up her mind between a
kiss on the cheek and one on the mouth -- it looked to be sort of half and
half. Was it that she wanted to make it a real "wake up and smell the
coffee" kiss but Gabrielle turned her head for a peck on the cheek? Or
perhaps Xena was torn between the kiss she wanted to share with G and what
she thought was appropriate now that Gabrielle was married. Your call.

Callisto -- the entire teaser is utterly fabulous. However, this woman
needs to eat more (prison food must be really awful). Seeing her
stick-figure arms is bad enough -- it conjures visions out of a Dorothy
Allison or Denise Gardina novel, the house that is falling apart, the coal
mine or clothing factory where the parents work shut down, the little girl
who is always going hungry. But when C got out of that chair, and we had
shots of her bare legs (and bare feet only makes it worse) -- those legs
are straight out of Dachau, Ravensbruk, or some other concentration camp
with a name I am not sure how to spell. It's painful just looking at them.

Callisto and Gabrielle -- once again we see Callisto's desire to eliminate
Gabrielle. Part of it is because she knows it will hurt Xena, yes. But
she also muses that she envies G "in a way -- she gets to leave this life
so pure -- I wonder if I could have been her. Hmm. Burn her." In other
words, Gabrielle is more than just a sacrificial lamb to Callisto -- she
is a reminder of what she herself could have been if not for Xena. So she
would want to kill G in any event. That G is the "friendship" of Xena's
life is just icing on the cake for her.

Ted (or maybe Joxer) -- what is with the dark lines under his eyes? We've
had them in both C and RoC now. True, Ted could be chemically sensitive
or suffer from environmental allergies. I know I will start to look (and
feel) a lot worse than he does in a few weeks when the wind-pollenated
trees start to blossom. But unlike regular folks, actors only have dark
lines if the makeup people let them. So assuming that they are intentional
rather than incidental, what are these lines supposed to communicate about
the character?

One final trivial observation -- those who are seeking to make a Xena
costume for themselves probably have trouble getting the armor right in
the back (someone on ATX mentioned this recently), because with hair,
sword, and the tendency of directors to film actors from the front, you
don't get many good looks at it. There are some nice, easily capturable
shots of Xena's armor from the back, unobscured by hair or the sword
scabbard, in the quicksand scene at the end.

Analysis.

Note: RoC stands for the episode, regardless of caps (sometimes I forget
to let go of the shift key). If I mean Renee, I will say Renee. Also, as
with my comments on Callisto, I am ignoring (mostly) the stories that come
after RoC. I know that Gabrielle has forgiven Callisto by the end of A
Necessary Evil, but I am speaking of this episode as a self-contained
sequel to Callisto, suppressing my foreknowledge of the rest of the
season.

As I said in my post on "Callisto" two weeks ago, while it would have been
better with more development of Maelus and of Callisto's future plans,
(and make room for those by axing the comedy, which seems out of place),
that episode works, and works well. Return of Callisto, by the same
writer, was clearly meant to take up where Callisto left off.

The hook for Callisto was the return of Xena's evil past to haunt her, and
the theme was that "Somebody has to say no to this lust for revenge....
There is only one way to end this cycle of cruelty and it is through love
and forgiveness" (all quotes are from my illegible notes and may be
slightly off). The hook for RoC is the putting of those ideals of
Gabrielle's (which formed the theme of Callisto) to the test. And the
theme of RoC is, uh, oh dear. Callisto was a wonderful and *coherent*
treatment of its theme. ROC can't decide what its theme is.

RoC wants to be about love versus cruelty, forgiveness versus hatred, and
fighting with one's heart versus fighting to kill. These are all related,
and all are developed in the episode. The core goal seems to have been to
ask which is stronger, the good side of these oppositions or the bad side?
Which will prevail if they are pitted against each other? But for each of
these oppositions, while the episode tries to answer that good is stronger
(clearly, from the whole structure, ambiguity was not what the writer had
in mind), it ends up saying the exact opposite a few minutes later.

The episode's problems start with Perdicus. In Act 1, he shows up and
tells Gabrielle that visions of her face kept him from suicide in the
depths of his post traumatic stress disorder (can you spell cliche?). She
says that she isn't who he thinks she is -- "I fight." But she has never
killed, he replies.

This is the first opposition in the episode. Gabrielle thinks that there
are things worth fighting for -- otherwise she wouldn't be helping Xena do
good in the world. But she thinks that there is nothing worth killing
for, not even to save herself. She places the safety of others over her
own welfare (in Hooves and Harlots she throws herself on Ephiny in the
midst of a shower of arrows, for example), but she will not kill. In this,
she is a pacifist.

This distinction between fighting for a just cause and just fighting is
reiterated in the first battle scene, where Callisto traps Xena by
threatening a child. "You fight with your heart" C says. "that gives me
an advantage... I no longer seem to have one." Like Gabrielle, Xena
fights for a cause -- and despite the number of people who she kills in
various episodes, Xena also is against killing -- not only does she feel
guilty over each new death, but we have been repeatedly shown, most
recently by the end of "Callisto," that if killing can be avoided, Xena
will avoid it.

The writer sets up to show the superiority of fighting with one's heart
(fighting with principles intact, fighting without killing) over fighting
to kill (which is what Callisto does). This setup is destroyed, however,
when Gabrielle decides to marry Perdicus at the end of act 1. P kills one
of his opponents, and is unable to go on.

With screams of "my baby! somebody save my baby!" going on in the
background, with helpless innocents being killed all around him by
Callisto's thugs, he throws down his sword and tells G "I'm done fighting.
I'm going home." The prima facie interpretation that the episode asks me
to accept is that this act meshes so perfectly with Gabrielle's philosophy
that she is moved right then and there to change her answer to yes and
decides marry him. But it is in fact an act that should have caused her
to slap him, at the very least -- there are people who need his
protection, there is a cause worth fighting for, and he decides in the
middle of the screams of pain and terror that his personal, selfish
self-centered egodystonic reaction should take precedence over the needs
of others. She should have handed him a club or staff and told him to
fight with something other than a sword if he didn't want to kill people.
But to decide that this cowardly and selfish act of his is so noble that
she needs to marry him (which is the interpretation that the story asks us
to make) is completely out of character and in total contradiction to the
distinction that has been building in the previous scenes between fighting
and killing.

This is the first theme, and it is made incoherent by Gabrielle's
confusion of an ignoble refusal to fight with a noble refusal to kill.
The other two themes emerge when Gabrielle's pacifism is put to the test.
The morning after the wedding, Gabrielle says "I know what love is now --
it's life -- everything is united by love alone." To which Callisto adds
that "you're right. And hate divides. Let's see which one is stronger,
shall we?"

C kills P, and Gabrielle finds herself drawn into the cycle of vengeance
and cruelty, of the inability to forgive or love that she was deploring in
"Callisto." Like Maelus, all she wants on her hands is Callisto's blood.
Mourning and tears are sacrificed to feed her hatred. She merely wants to
cut Callisto open and watch her bleed.

X doesn't want to teach Gabrielle to swordfight, thereby destroying all
the ideals Gabrielle has lived by. But for G, her ideals were a lie --
"love is helpless in the face of cruelty." Xena has to realize that "the
little innocent Gabrielle is dead" and gone forever now. Xena reminds G
that if she is taken over by hatred, C will have won, and Gabrielle says
that Callisto has already won. And, skillfully building up his theme, the
writer shows that Callisto herself is incapable of love -- it is merely a
trick of nature to get us to reproduce, and she wants no part of it.

Gabrielle sees Xena praying. When the moment comes, and she stands before
the sleeping Callisto, she gives up her chance at vengeance. There are
things worth fighting and dying for, but none worth killing for. And at
the end of the episode, she is able to find the inner peace necessary to
send loving thoughts toward Perdicus. I think it is safe to say that
Callisto has never been able to send any conscious thoughts of love toward
her mother and sister -- she is too preoccupied with hating Xena.

That's what the episode is trying to do. As I said, the themes are
carefully and skillfully built up. Callisto has done her best to make
Gabrielle just like her (another example of the "if not for Xena"
similarity between them). Gabrielle's throwing down the sword and sending
her thoughts to Perdicus is supposed to show us that she has failed. But
the events I have left out of the above summary of act 4 contradict that
conclusion, suggesting instead that Callisto has succeeded.

First, Gabrielle's line to Callisto -- "I won't take a life. Not even
yours." The hatred that was consuming her is still there -- we hear it in
the "even yours." Gabrielle has foregone the superficiality of killing,
but she has not followed her own advice and ended the cycle of vengeance
and cruelty with love and forgiveness. Perhaps if she had watched
Callisto take a cat nap while everyone was waiting for Xena to come to the
party, and seen her weeping in her dreams for her dead mother and sister,
and we had seen Gabrielle's compassion and understanding at that moment --
but there is no such scene.

The second point requires a detour.

I think even those who like Joxer will agree that he is hardly the font of
wisdom or a role model. He says that he would gladly sacrifice his own
life in order to "avenge" Gabrielle's loss -- and once again we are
brought up against the false ideal of Dane-guild, blood-debt, capital
punishment, the very concepts which "Callisto" was dedicated to
repudiating and showing to be hollow and self-defeating, false, ideals
that really are lies.

Xena is dismissive of Joxer's idea of vengeance -- she acts nice and tells
him he has a good heart (anything else would merely open an argument that
they don't have time for), but her delivery, and the line that follows
about not taking that heart too near Callisto lest she put a sword through
it, clearly shows that she doesn't think much of his statement. Xena
knows better than do as Joxer would and go once again down the road of
vengeance and cruelty.

Xena made a choice at the end of "Callisto":

G: I'm glad you saved Callisto's life.
X: It was the right thing to do.

It was *vitally* important to Xena that she not kill Callisto or allow her
to be killed.

OK, end detour.

Now all those ideals get thrown out the window and Xena (who throughout
the episode has not said that she is going to kill Callisto -- merely
"take care of her," or see to it that she "gets what's coming to her" -- I
can easily see Xena hamstringing Callisto, or something equally crippling,
and then returning her to prison) perpetuates the cycle of vengeance on
Gabrielle's behalf. She kills Callisto because Gabrielle asked her to
(sometimes I think she may love Gabrielle a little *too* much).

After Callisto has run out to the chariots, and Xena pauses and casts a
wide-eyed (worried? hyper-alert?) look behind her to make sure that
Gabrielle is all right, G nods and says, *still with hatred in her voice*,
"Go get her Xena." And Xena nods. And then Xena proceeds to "get" her --
to see to it that she dies.

At the beginning, Callisto tells Joxer to tell Xena that "Xena should have
killed me when she had the chance. For every drop of innocent blood I
shed from here now out is on her hands as well as mine." But that kind of
guilt doesn't begin or end with Callisto. Callisto's blood is on
Gabrielle's hands as much as it is on Xena's.

Callisto wants to kill Xena's soul -- which, arguably, Xena has invested
into Gabrielle and Gabrielle's ideals. But when she is stopped from
killing G, she kills Perdicus and says "that'll do." Why? Xena's soul is
not invested in him, true -- but we are asked to believe that Gabrielle's
is (for all the wrong and stupid reasons, as I have pointed out, but
still...). And if Gabrielle loses her soul, then, as the prayer to
Artemis (the "anyone listening" bit I read as that of a cynic [today, she
would be an atheist or agnostic] who has met some gods and knows how petty
and cruel they can be) shows, Xena will lose hers in turn.

The "forever and ever" line suggests that Gabrielle has not lost her soul
in this experience. But the "go get her" line suggests, with equal force,
that she has indeed lost her soul, and there are no other lines or scenes
in between those two to help us resolve this contradition.

And all these problems are without regard to the obvious problems the
episode has with pacing (it doesn't matter to my argument whether it was
done in 45 minutes or 90). Nor are they affected by the fact that the
teaser, while a great sequence in and of itself, is five wasted minutes as
far as the main story goes (why not just start with Joxer delivering the
news of her escape? why spend so much precious time merely setting up the
situation?).

Nor have I touched on the huge problems G's abrupt and stupid decision to
marry the fellow (and Xena's lying to G and telling her that Xena doesn't
mind if she does marry him doesn't help any) presents for the X/G
relationship, regardless whether we see them as "just good friends" (a
woefully inadequate formulation, but one that some prefer because it
avoids using the four letter l-word that they associate somehow with the
s-x word and thus with the seven letter l-word, which makes them
uncomfortable) or as lovers.

I have not even mentioned the internal contradiction in Perdicus's
character. During the wedding, Perdicus and Joxer were doing the
male-bonding thing (another reason why he was a bad catch, IMO, but never
mind). Is the P who was unable to go on fighting after killing someone,
the P who comes across as quite passive, dare I say, even feminine (which
may, perhaps, in a way, sorta help explain what G sees in him, just a
little tiny bit), is this the same P who is able to identify, to bond, to
get along so well with Joxer "the mighty," -- Joxer who has built his
entire (self deluded) identity around being a manly man, a paragon of
masculine prowess and battle-hardened virility (we're talking about his
self-image here, his personality, not what he actually is)?
I don't _think_ so.

In the end, what seems to have been meant as a careful meditation on the
depth of Gabrielle's commitment to pacifism, showing her ideals being
tested and tempered in the fire of being made an instant widow, becomes an
incomprehensible muddle. Just as Callisto was an artistic success, I rate
this one an artistic failure.

-------------------------

End deep analysis. I have been careful to avoid saying anything bad about
Joxer in all the above. But for all of you who think that this just
wouldn't be a real Glaurung post (must be the dragon's evil twin, you are
all thinking, there was no Joxer-bashing). Well, get used to
disappointment. I am not going to prove to you that I am really me by
writing about what a horrible thing it is to have Joxer in this episode.

Joxer hardly gets a chance to do his version of comedy *or* be offensive
in RoC. In fact, his role could have been equally well filled by, say,
Maelus or some other inexpensive person. We get Joxer without Joxer, if
you will.

Some folks have said that they think Ted is a poor actor. Naturally he is
compared to Lucy or Renee, but I don't think I'll go any farther than
that. In the scene where he speaks of being willing to sacrifice himself
to avenge Gabrielle, however, did anyone else find his lines to be, well,
flat? Unconvincing? Due to direction or acting, or whatever it is that
causes him to have those dark circles under his eyes.

However, sorry, no anti-Joxer treatise on how he detracts from RoC -- as
I've just explained, there isn't anything much to detract from. The fact
that Joxer doesn't do much to worsen this episode says much about how bad
it is to start with.

But for those who feel unfulfilled now, here is an anti-Joxer treatise on
his role in Callisto:

Several people have talked about the moment in Callisto when Joxer does
not do as Callisto asks and kill Gabrielle as the turning point for the
character, where, in an act of bravery, he turns from evil to good. That
is all wrong IMNSHO, and I shall seek to show why and how.

We do not see Joxer in the tag at the end of the episode -- both he and
Maelus just vanish to wherever minor characters vanish when they are no
longer needed. So all we have to go with in gauging Joxer's switching of
allegiance are the reactions shots of him during the ladder fight (and as
someone pointed out in Xenaverse a while back, "wow wow wow" is, well, not
very communicative), and his not killing Gabrielle, the latter being key.
So let's look at that scene, shall we?

Joxer could be switching sides, deciding that he doesn't want to be evil
anymore (and I agree that that is what was intended), or Callisto could be
right and while he would like to do evil, he lacks the spine for it -- he
doesn't kill because he faints at the sight of blood, not because his eyes
are opened and he sees that killing is wrong.

A lot of subtle things at every level bring me to agree with Callisto and
see Joxer as wanting to join up with Callisto but lacking the guts for it.

Writing -- Joxer doesn't have any lines in which he says no, I will not do
as you ask. He could, for instance, have said something like "I thought
you wanted me to prove that I was a warrior, not a cutthroat." I can
easily see him putting on a big facade about how killing a defenseless
person in cold blood goes against his warrior code and is beneath his
dignity and an insult to his vast prowess. It would be pure Joxer, and it
would show that unlike Callisto and her thugs, he has ethics, a moral
core, something we could admire despite his total ineptness and irritating
bravado.

Acting -- Instead, Ted is forced to work with monosyllables and a lot of
grimacing. Lucy could communicate her character's moral fiber through a
few grunts and facial expressions, but Ted is no Lucy.

Directing -- Callisto tells Joxer to "do her." The entire scene that
follows is shot with only two camera angles -- one on Callisto's face in
closeup, the other a 3-shot of Theodorus, Gabrielle, and Joxer. Now TV is
a low-resolution medium, and it is also a square medium -- that is, its
aspect ratio makes it impossible to show more than one person at a time in
any detail unless they are sitting in one another's laps. To stay at a
distance for all of the shots of Joxer and Gabrielle in this scene, as the
director did, cuts down considerably on the nuances which Ted or Renee are
able to get across to the camera. TV does not do subtle stuff very well.

Editing -- In addition, the editor kept cutting back to Callisto,
interrupting whatever expressions Ted or Renee might be putting on before
you can get a good look at them.

Foley --
Callisto explains what "do her" means. Joxer says OK.
Callisto: "Yes!"
J: This will really piss Xena off. Wouldn't it be better...
C: (shouting) I want her dead! Joxer nods in agreement (he is still
trying to do as she asks), and waggles the knife back and forth.

This is the moment of truth -- in a second, he will turn to Gabrielle,
start to raise the knife, and then say that he can't do it. And the foley
people chose this moment to have the knife make exaggerated and comical
whooshing sounds. The mood is destroyed.

Acting/directing again -- Joxer raises his knife. He is in profile,
facing Gabrielle. Gabrielle, however, is staring fearfully (and bravely)
at Callisto -- *not* at Joxer. Eye contact is vital at this point, and we
don't get it. So is a closeup, which we also do not get. Without a moment
when Joxer looks into Gabreille's face, without a view of him showing some
kind of compassion or fellow feeling, just some simple, easy expression of
humanity, there is no way of knowing if Joxer refuses to kill Gabrielle
(active choosing of good) or is unable to kill her (jellyfish, lack of
spine, not having the warlord thing, being too squeamish to be the thing
he wants to be -- all passive, allowing events to choose for him).

Editing -- If Ted and Renee ever made *any* eye contact in this scene, the
footage ended up on the cutting room floor, probably to make room for the
intercuts of Hudson (which are wonderful in themselves, but not if they
disrupt and obliterate the scene's intended effect).

This is just one example of what I have been saying for some time now --
that the way Joxer is coming across for way too many people (as a
detraction) is not what the producers had in mind. Instead, a lot of
little things have gone wrong, at every level of production, and the
result is that the redeeming qualities which we are supposed to be seeing
in him are not showing up, for many of us, as they should when they
should.

That's all for now -- stay tuned for an analysis of Intimate Stranger in a
few days.

Posted to the subtext group as well as atx even though I didn't talk much
about subtext because this episode is so key to the X/G relationship.

---
PS:
My news server is down again, and I suspect I was not getting the full
traffic earlier this week when it was working. Please email your
followups to me as well as posting, as I am not sure when things will be
working properly again.

Posted via dejanews with my brand new thinkpad (at last, at last).

-- Glaurung (Academic Dragon) -- bb0...@binghamton.edu --
USPS address: finger -l bb0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
==========================================================
"What the woman who labors wants is the right to live, not simply
exist... the worker must have bread, but she must have roses, too."
--Rose Schneiderman, 1882-1972: cap-maker, unionist, sufferagist, lesbian
(?), candidate to the US Senate. "I was not born a redhead for nothing."

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[Paul Henderson]

Glaurung wrote:

>for hiding concealed weapons). Perdicus appears to have only the one
>outfit, and as for Gabrielle, not only does she get right back into
>that BGSB first thing the morning after the wedding, but during the
>wedding,

Sorry, folks, been gone for a while.

What's BGSB stand for?

Paul

[Glaurung]

In article <5h22sj$e...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
paul...@ix.netcom.com(Paul Henderson) wrote:

>
> Glaurung wrote:
>
> >for hiding concealed weapons). Perdicus appears to have only the one
> >outfit, and as for Gabrielle, not only does she get right back into
> >that BGSB first thing the morning after the wedding, but during the
> >wedding,
>

> Sorry, folks, been gone for a while.
>
> What's BGSB stand for?
>
> Paul
>

Bilibous Green Sports Bra -- that halter top thingie she's been wearing
this season.

Sorry, in the future I shall try to spell it out the first time I use it
an a post. Part of the problem is I don't know how to spell bilibous. ;}

-- Glaurung (Academic Dragon) -- bb0...@binghamton.edu --
USPS address: finger -l bb0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
==========================================================
"What the woman who labors wants is the right to live, not simply
exist... the worker must have bread, but she must have roses, too."

--Rose Schneiderman, 1882-1972: cap-maker, unionist, sufferagist, lesbian,

[Rick Ridgway]

Hi Glaurung,

Most of your analysis, as usual, was on target. =

In article <8590475...@dejanews.com>,
Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu> wrote:

> Right. General comments first
> =

> Is it my imagination, or is there nobody in the universe of Xena who ow=
ns
> more than one suit of clothes? <<snip for space>>

Maybe it's like Richie Rich. They all own seven sets of the same outfit
and wear 'em as a fashion statement? I dunno. =

> While we are on the subject of costumes. Joxer's, uh, kitchen utensil

> /head covering thingie. <<snip for space>>

> Instead of beating the crap out of him (why bother?), she rips

> that thing on his head off and stomps it flatter than a pancake (alas, =
the
> same fate cannot work with the armor he wears, since from the looks of =
it,
> it started out as a couple of colanders that got stomped by a giant and=

> has already been flattened). And if TPTB go with this, we can hear Xena=

> sing "Burial" again as Joxer tearfully cremates his headgear. Sounds g=
ood
> to me.

ROTFL - Great idea!

<<Snip of subtext content, but I'll actually talk about that in
this post later >> =

> Callisto -- the entire teaser is utterly fabulous. However, this woman=

> needs to eat more (prison food must be really awful). Seeing her

> stick-figure arms is bad enough -- it conjures visions out of a Dorothy=

> Allison or Denise Gardina novel, the house that is falling apart, the c=
oal
> mine or clothing factory where the parents work shut down, the little g=
irl
> who is always going hungry. But when C got out of that chair, and we h=
ad
> shots of her bare legs (and bare feet only makes it worse) -- those leg=
s
> are straight out of Dachau, Ravensbruk, or some other concentration cam=
p
> with a name I am not sure how to spell. It's painful just looking at th=
em.

Trying to draw me out, were you? <laugh> Here, this link should give you
a better idea about Hudson, http://amoeba.cts.du.edu/axcess.htm. I think
you'll find it informative. It says Hudson just looks like that and has
all her life. She used to get trashed for her looks in high school, (by
guys, much to my surprise), and she says she drew on the anger from
those
experiences to play Callisto.
=

Though, could you tell me why men can no longer find women beautiful?
It seems if I don't admire an actress for her strong contributions to =

humanity, I'm not supposed to admire her at all. As someone on another =

thread pointed out, there's a strong streak of American Puritanism in
that.

<<respectful heavy snip of performer notes and helpful armor-related
info>>
> =

> Analysis.
<<another snip of non-controversial material>>

> RoC wants to be about love versus cruelty, forgiveness versus hatred, a=
nd
> fighting with one's heart versus fighting to kill. These are all relate=
d,
> and all are developed in the episode. The core goal seems to have been=
to
> ask which is stronger, the good side of these oppositions or the bad si=
de?
> Which will prevail if they are pitted against each other? But for each=
of
> these oppositions, while the episode tries to answer that good is stron=
ger
> (clearly, from the whole structure, ambiguity was not what the writer h=

ad
> in mind), it ends up saying the exact opposite a few minutes later.

> =

> The episode's problems start with Perdicus. In Act 1, he shows up and
> tells Gabrielle that visions of her face kept him from suicide in the

> depths of his post traumatic stress disorder (can you spell cliche?). S=
he
> says that she isn't who he thinks she is -- "I fight." But she has nev=
er
> killed, he replies.

Just because something is clich=E9 doesn't mean it can't happen.
Besides, his change is the catalyst for Gabrielle to change her
mind and marry him. Without it, we'd have a whole different show.
=

<<snip of material re Gabby and Perdicus leading up to the point:

> [I]t is in fact an act that should have caused her

> to slap him, at the very least -- there are people who need his
> protection, there is a cause worth fighting for, and he decides in the
> middle of the screams of pain and terror that his personal, selfish

> self-centered egodystonic reaction should take precedence over the need=

s
> of others. She should have handed him a club or staff and told him to

> fight with something other than a sword if he didn't want to kill peopl=
e.
> But to decide that this cowardly and selfish act of his is so noble tha=
t
> she needs to marry him (which is the interpretation that the story asks=
us
> to make) is completely out of character and in total contradiction to t=
he
> distinction that has been building in the previous scenes between fight=
ing
> and killing.

egodystonic? I couldn't even find that in Funk & Wagnalls. (wink)

Besides, the notion that a soldier should merely injure an opponent
is very much rooted in the 20th century. It takes three people out, the
injured plus two to carry the injured. Before that, not killing your
opponents was cowardice in the face of the enemy. Anne Rice has very
effectively written in the Vampire Chronicles how clean we are compared =

to the casual attitude most of humanity has taken towards killing.

And this entire storyline could be taken to mean if you take pity on
your
enemies, they'll only come back to kill your best friend's husband, kill
others and blame you for it, and let them control your life in ways you
never intended (up to and including possession.)

This is one of the things that the writers of Xena have the freedom to =

do that most shows don't. Namely, to make the characters fallible. Not
everything these characters do turns out pretty. Things on Xena have =

depth, and multiple layers of meaning. Can't say that about Friends or
most cop and doctor shows, can you?

> Gabrielle sees Xena praying. When the moment comes, and she stands bef=

ore
> the sleeping Callisto, she gives up her chance at vengeance. There are

> things worth fighting and dying for, but none worth killing for. And a=
t
> the end of the episode, she is able to find the inner peace necessary t=

o
> send loving thoughts toward Perdicus. I think it is safe to say that

> Callisto has never been able to send any conscious thoughts of love tow=

ard
> her mother and sister -- she is too preoccupied with hating Xena.

This is a key sequence in the series to me, Xena praying for the
innocence
for Gabrielle. Your thoughts here are well presented.

<<snip of material leading up to:

> Now all those ideals get thrown out the window and Xena (who throughout=

> the episode has not said that she is going to kill Callisto -- merely

> "take care of her," or see to it that she "gets what's coming to her" -=
- I
> can easily see Xena hamstringing Callisto, or something equally crippli=
ng,
> and then returning her to prison) perpetuates the cycle of vengeance on=

> Gabrielle's behalf. She kills Callisto because Gabrielle asked her to
> (sometimes I think she may love Gabrielle a little *too* much).

> =

> After Callisto has run out to the chariots, and Xena pauses and casts a=

> wide-eyed (worried? hyper-alert?) look behind her to make sure that

> Gabrielle is all right, G nods and says, *still with hatred in her voic=
e*,
> "Go get her Xena." And Xena nods. And then Xena proceeds to "get" her =

--
> to see to it that she dies.

> =

> At the beginning, Callisto tells Joxer to tell Xena that "Xena should h=

ave
> killed me when she had the chance. For every drop of innocent blood I

> shed from here now out is on her hands as well as mine." But that kind=

of
> guilt doesn't begin or end with Callisto. Callisto's blood is on
> Gabrielle's hands as much as it is on Xena's.

> =

> Callisto wants to kill Xena's soul -- which, arguably, Xena has investe=

d
> into Gabrielle and Gabrielle's ideals. But when she is stopped from

> killing G, she kills Perdicus and says "that'll do." Why? Xena's soul=
is
> not invested in him, true -- but we are asked to believe that Gabrielle=

's
> is (for all the wrong and stupid reasons, as I have pointed out, but
> still...). And if Gabrielle loses her soul, then, as the prayer to

> Artemis (the "anyone listening" bit I read as that of a cynic [today, s=
he
> would be an atheist or agnostic] who has met some gods and knows how pe=

tty
> and cruel they can be) shows, Xena will lose hers in turn.

"atheist or agnostic"? I think you're projecting unsupported assumptions
on to Xena here.

I'll argue the point of Xena and religion. She is a former follower of =

the god Ares, and a friend to the children of Abraham. See the Abraham-
style episode and the story about Goliath for my offerings of proof.
The basic difference in Christianity and Judaism is whether or not we
believe the Messiah has come. Xena played a Messiah in an episode.

The source material is Christopher Marlowe's "The Tragical History of
Doctor Faustus", an Elizabethan poem which was required reading from the
Norton anthology. In the poem, the Devil came to a scientist and
promised
him the secrets of the universe. He could have the run of the universe,
wine, women, and song for twenty years, and then the Devil would take
his soul.

Twenty years pass, the Devil comes back. At the same time, God appears.
God says He will forgive Faustus if he will renounce evil and he can go
to Heaven. The tragedy comes in when Faustus says no, he's evil, and =

can't accept forgiveness. Faustus then goes to Hell where he doesn't
really belong. Does this seem familiar? Say, as the story of Marcus?

Of course, if you're the hero of an action/adventure show, you can't =

just let tragedy stand. So, Xena assumes the Messianic role and risks =

her soul to save Marcus. And that she did so later identified her to =

Hades in IS, so I come to the conclusion it was intentionally written
this way. And risking your eternal soul is much more a statement of
love than just "a kiss", IMO.

> The "forever and ever" line suggests that Gabrielle has not lost her so=
ul
> in this experience. But the "go get her" line suggests, with equal for=
ce,
> that she has indeed lost her soul, and there are no other lines or scen=
es
> in between those two to help us resolve this contradiction.
> =

> And all these problems are without regard to the obvious problems the

> episode has with pacing (it doesn't matter to my argument whether it wa=

s
> done in 45 minutes or 90). Nor are they affected by the fact that the

> teaser, while a great sequence in and of itself, is five wasted minutes=
as
> far as the main story goes (why not just start with Joxer delivering th=
e
> news of her escape? why spend so much precious time merely setting up t=
he
> situation?).

Because television writing is more about quantity than quality. That the
folks at Renaissance do both regularly is exceptional. Shakespeare had
years
to shake down his plays and eliminate the dead spots. Current plays have
test runs to make things flow smoothly. TV shows are lucky to get a cast
read-through before shooting. The producers might have done this
differently
if they had the time to think about it, but I doubt they had the time.

> Nor have I touched on the huge problems G's abrupt and stupid decision =
to
> marry the fellow (and Xena's lying to G and telling her that Xena doesn=

't
> mind if she does marry him doesn't help any) presents for the X/G
> relationship, regardless whether we see them as "just good friends" (a
> woefully inadequate formulation, but one that some prefer because it

> avoids using the four letter l-word that they associate somehow with th=

e
> s-x word and thus with the seven letter l-word, which makes them
> uncomfortable) or as lovers.

Okay, I promised my views on sub-text, and here they are. I refused
bring
them up before because I agree with your "coffee-shop" analogy of how a
newsgroup should run. Before entering my 2 dinars, I wanted to introduce
myself.

My view agrees very much with yours. I agree that X and G love one =

another. I agree that "just good friends" is woefully inadequate, and
the lesbian part does make me uncomfortable. I see them as sisters in
the way siblings are in their better moments, and they have more better
moments than most. The jealousies, teasing, etc. are siblings in their
lesser moments.

Before I get into this, let back up a second. In talking about =

Xena this week to those not steeped in atx lore, I got two responses. =

The first was from the friend of mine who introduced me to the show. =

I told him about subtext, and he said, "You know, sometimes they'll
give a look or something, and I'll think, 'That wasn't what I thought
it was, was it?'"

The other response was from a guy at work who is a serious Christian =

and a responsible parent who screens what he allows his 12-yr-old =

daughter to watch. If they go to the video store and she brings him an
R-rated video he hasn't seen, he tells her to put it back. I mentioned =

I watch Herc and Xena, his response was "Good shows." I left him unaware
of subtext. So, I believe it is possible to enjoy and appreciate the
show without knowing of or believing in subtext.

And again, I acknowledge Liz Friedman and the existence of her contri-
butions. But I don't have to agree with them, no more than I have to =

agree with George Lucas that showing Chewie fixing the Falcon in TESB =

somehow made the entire Wookie race too technologically advanced to use
in "Return of the Jedi". (The necessity or desirability of Ewoks and =

the kiddie-film atmosphere many of us felt they invoked is a matter of
heated debate on RASSM, my other favorite newsgroup.)

As I have posted elsewhere, anything that can be considered as art
has more than one valid definition. Otherwise, lit classes would use
multiple choice forms. So, here's my attempt at showing you where this
episode in particular can be used to argue against the subtext
interpretation.

Let me start with the line where Gabby says "I've never felt more
comfortable around anyone. Except you, of course." I found Renee's
delivery dismissive, like she was saying "You're a nice person, but
you're no Perdicus."

Then there's the scene where Gab and Perdicus are in the bedroom
together. Their eye contact with each other was quite steamy, and
real in the way Playboy's version of bedroom scenes aren't. The humor
was a nice touch, and the eye contact was everything in seeing how
Gabby really was attracted to Perdicus. And yes, they had sex.

Next, there's Xena's prayer. Xena is quite concerned for Gabrielle's
innocence and the light in her eyes. All those pacifist beliefs, and
I think more. Gabrielle's innocence goes beyond "blood innocence", as
in, she hasn't killed. Gab's innocence is about how love conquers all
and is a wonderful thing (FHTBT). And to tell me Xena would then turn
around and introduce her to sexual practices considered dubious and =

jaded to most (and we all know the thread I'm talking about), well, =

let's just say I can't agree with it.

And then there's the aftermath. Gabrielle was stunned by Perdicus'
death.
She lost her bard's abilities because of it and only got the abilities =

back when she knew Perdicus' killer felt some guilt over it. If that's =

not true heterosexual love, then somebody give me a definition, will ya?

(Personal note: When I write, it comes from dreams or from that period =

just before or after sleep when my body is still and my mind's still =

active. Gabrielle admits in IS her writing abilities work along those =

lines.)

Now, I said lesbianism makes me uncomfortable. I'll explain it here.
It's not that I mind seeing two women together. No one really does. If
you go and look at the dirty pictures archives on the 'Net (sorry, kids,
you'll have to find 'em on your own) or in commercial pornography, that
type of imagery is commonplace. But as .deeva and other self-admitted
lesbians on the group point out, love is not just sex.

Lesbianism, as I understand it, is about two women finding all their
emotional needs in each other. That by definition excludes males, and
yes, as a male, I do bristle at the notion I'm not needed. Especially
if you're gonna apply this notion to a couple where one has risked her
immortal soul for a man, and the other, while married to Perdicus for
but a day, seems just as unwilling to let go of him as Herc was of
letting go of Deianara. And yes, I think this goes further than the
standard lesbian rebuttal of, "Well, I had few boyfriends before. . ." =

I'm not going to claim I speak for anyone but myself. And if the
world could keep itself as individuals talking instead of groups,
the world would be a much better place. The subtext analysis is
just as valid as mine. We're just looking at different places in the
text.

> I have not even mentioned the internal contradiction in Perdicus's
> character. During the wedding, Perdicus and Joxer were doing the

> male-bonding thing (another reason why he was a bad catch, IMO, but nev=
er
> mind). Is the P who was unable to go on fighting after killing someone=
,
> the P who comes across as quite passive, dare I say, even feminine (whi=

ch
> may, perhaps, in a way, sorta help explain what G sees in him, just a

> little tiny bit), is this the same P who is able to identify, to bond, =

to
> get along so well with Joxer "the mighty," -- Joxer who has built his
> entire (self deluded) identity around being a manly man, a paragon of

> masculine prowess and battle-hardened virility (we're talking about his=

> self-image here, his personality, not what he actually is)?
> I don't _think_ so.

Just goes to show Joxer doesn't threaten men the way he does women.
Besides, I still think you're taking Joxer a wee bit too seriously.

> In the end, what seems to have been meant as a careful meditation on th=

e
> depth of Gabrielle's commitment to pacifism, showing her ideals being

> tested and tempered in the fire of being made an instant widow, becomes=
an
> incomprehensible muddle. Just as Callisto was an artistic success, I r=

ate
> this one an artistic failure.

I dunno about "careful meditation". I think this show was just an excuse
to bring back Callisto (hence the title as opposed to "Gabrielle's
Wedding"
or some such) and driven by commercial concerns such as ratings. And I
think
the reason for bringing Hudson back this time was good, unlike the later
episodes. I really wish they hadn't killed her, and just made it a
Doctor/Master, Fugitive/One-armed man, Kira/Gut Dukat type of situation.
As it is, the Goddess Callisto IS just plain silly.

> End deep analysis. I have been careful to avoid saying anything bad ab=

out
> Joxer in all the above. But for all of you who think that this just

> wouldn't be a real Glaurung post (must be the dragon's evil twin, you a=

re
> all thinking, there was no Joxer-bashing). Well, get used to
> disappointment. I am not going to prove to you that I am really me by

> writing about what a horrible thing it is to have Joxer in this episode=
=2E
> =

> Joxer hardly gets a chance to do his version of comedy *or* be offensiv=
e
> in RoC. In fact, his role could have been equally well filled by, say,=

> Maelus or some other inexpensive person. We get Joxer without Joxer, i=
f
> you will.
> =

> Some folks have said that they think Ted is a poor actor. Naturally he=

is
> compared to Lucy or Renee, but I don't think I'll go any farther than

> that. In the scene where he speaks of being willing to sacrifice himse=
lf
> to avenge Gabrielle, however, did anyone else find his lines to be, wel=
l,
> flat? Unconvincing? Due to direction or acting, or whatever it is tha=

t
> causes him to have those dark circles under his eyes.

Yodanius also once said "Nepotism is a powerful Force in Hollywood. A
powerful Force, it is." And yes, I did find that scene kind of flat.
=

> However, sorry, no anti-Joxer treatise on how he detracts from RoC -- a=
s
> I've just explained, there isn't anything much to detract from. The fa=
ct
> that Joxer doesn't do much to worsen this episode says much about how b=

ad
> it is to start with.

> =

> But for those who feel unfulfilled now, here is an anti-Joxer treatise =
on
> his role in Callisto: <<snip of an anti-Joxer treatise>>

> This is just one example of what I have been saying for some time now -=

-
> that the way Joxer is coming across for way too many people (as a
> detraction) is not what the producers had in mind. Instead, a lot of
> little things have gone wrong, at every level of production, and the

> result is that the redeeming qualities which we are supposed to be seei=

ng
> in him are not showing up, for many of us, as they should when they
> should.

You said this? When? (jumps to avoid flames, several times) =

Sorry, I just HAD to say it. (tongue firmly in cheek)

> ---
> PS:
> My news server is down again, and I suspect I was not getting the full
> traffic earlier this week when it was working. Please email your

> followups to me as well as posting, as I am not sure when things will b=
e
> working properly again.
> =

> Posted via dejanews with my brand new thinkpad (at last, at last).

Congratulations on your new thinkpad. =

Rick Ridgway
(rid...@world-access.com)

[ah...@imap1.asu.edu]

**I cut out most of the oringinal postings to save bandwidth & get to the
**point, please read the original posts :)

> The source material is Christopher Marlowe's "The Tragical History of
> Doctor Faustus", an Elizabethan poem which was required reading from the
> Norton anthology. In the poem, the Devil came to a scientist and
> promised
> him the secrets of the universe. He could have the run of the universe,
> wine, women, and song for twenty years, and then the Devil would take
> his soul.
>
> Twenty years pass, the Devil comes back. At the same time, God appears.
> God says He will forgive Faustus if he will renounce evil and he can go
> to Heaven. The tragedy comes in when Faustus says no, he's evil, and

> can't accept forgiveness. Faustus then goes to Hell where he doesn't
> really belong. Does this seem familiar? Say, as the story of Marcus?

First of all, I don't mean any disrespect to you, I just wanted to make
some things clear about one of my favorite author's work.

"The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus" was a tragedy drama by
Christopher Marlowe, not a poem, although written in a poetic style(blank
verse, to be exact). Dr. Faustus was a well learned scholar & a medical
doctor, but he still craved more knowledge. So he turned to witchery &
conjures up Mephastophilis, one of Lucifer's devils. Dr. Faustus offers
his soul to Lucifer in exchange for 24 years of ultimate power &
knowledge; to have Mephastophilis serve him & give him anything(power
knowledge, ect) he wanted.
He, as you said, believes that he is too evil to be forgiven even by God,
however, it wasn't God who came to him at the end of his 24 years, it was
several of his colleagues who tells him to repent so that God may have
mercy on his soul. In the last hour of his life, he contemplates this in
a long monologue, but he never repents; he is certain that he's deeds are
so evil that even God cannot forgive him.

[Kevin Wald]

>> The source material is Christopher Marlowe's "The Tragical History of
>> Doctor Faustus",

On an irrelevant, but Xena-related note: Marlowe's _Dr. Faustus_ is
also the source of the "the face that launched a thousand ships" line
in reference to Helen, which Gabrielle quoted at the beginning of
"Beware of Greeks . . .". Clearly, Gabrielle must be very well read,
to be able to quote from the work of an Elizabethan playwright. :-)

In fact, if Gabrielle had continued quoting, she would have said
"the face that launched a thousand ships / And burnt the topless
tow'rs of Ilium", which would have been very confusing to Xena, since
at that point in the episode the tow'rs of Ilium were still intact . . .

Kevin Wald | "I am the very model of a heroine barbarian . . ."
wa...@math.uchicago.edu | -- G&S, _Xena; or, The Warrior Princess_

[Glaurung]

In article <333C1B...@world-access.NOSPAM.com>,

Rick Ridgway <rid...@world-access.NOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Glaurung,
>
> Most of your analysis, as usual, was on target.

Thanks.

> In article <8590475...@dejanews.com>,
> Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu> wrote:

<making huge snips through this to keep it as short as possible> <note
that the = at the end of lines are due to Rick's editor being naughty>

> > Callisto -- the entire teaser is utterly fabulous. However, this woman=
> > needs to eat more (prison food must be really awful). Seeing her
>

> Trying to draw me out, were you? <laugh> Here, this link should give you
> a better idea about Hudson, http://amoeba.cts.du.edu/axcess.htm. I think
> you'll find it informative. It says Hudson just looks like that and has
> all her life. She used to get trashed for her looks in high school, (by
> guys, much to my surprise), and she says she drew on the anger from
> those experiences to play Callisto.

I shall look the place up. Thanks for the information.

>
> Though, could you tell me why men can no longer find women beautiful?
> It seems if I don't admire an actress for her strong contributions to =
> humanity, I'm not supposed to admire her at all. As someone on another =
> thread pointed out, there's a strong streak of American Puritanism in
> that.

::blink blink:: Who ever said that?
OTOH, if the person is talented and wonderful, it is sort if impolite
to regard them for their physical attributes alone and ignore everything
else about them.

Please refer to the college troll's posts for an example of one
who cares not for hudson except as an aesthetic object, and is
obnoxious in saying so.

> > Analysis.

> > The episode's problems start with Perdicus. In Act 1, he shows up and
> > tells Gabrielle that visions of her face kept him from suicide in the

> > depths of his post traumatic stress disorder (can you spell cliche?). She
> > says that she isn't who he thinks she is -- "I fight." But she has never

> > killed, he replies.
>
> Just because something is clich=E9 doesn't mean it can't happen.
> Besides, his change is the catalyst for Gabrielle to change her
> mind and marry him. Without it, we'd have a whole different show.

1. Fiction is supposed to be hyper-real. Life is full of cliches, but
stories are supposed to avoid them in order to create a heightened
experience. 2. P arrives, proposes, G says she won't (to Xena), P kills,
P goes home, and G changes her mind -- all in about seven minutes. I
rest my case. The entire thing was poorly handled, poorly paced, poorly
motivated, poorly done, period. Without regard for anyone's views on
subtext, it was really really rushed and sloppy, I think.

> > [I]t is in fact an act that should have caused her
> > to slap him, at the very least -- there are people who need his
> > protection, there is a cause worth fighting for, and he decides in the
> > middle of the screams of pain and terror that his personal, selfish

> > self-centered egodystonic reaction should take precedence over the needs
> > of others.
<snip>
> > But to decide that this cowardly and selfish act of his is so noble that
> > she needs to marry him (which is the interpretation that the story asks us
> > to make) is completely out of character and in total contradiction to the
> > distinction that has been building in the previous scenes between fighting

> > and killing.
>
> egodystonic? I couldn't even find that in Funk & Wagnalls. (wink)

Distressing. Out of accord with the ego. Theraputic term.

> Besides, the notion that a soldier should merely injure an opponent
> is very much rooted in the 20th century. It takes three people out, the
> injured plus two to carry the injured. Before that, not killing your
> opponents was cowardice in the face of the enemy. Anne Rice has very
> effectively written in the Vampire Chronicles how clean we are compared =
> to the casual attitude most of humanity has taken towards killing.

History? and Xena? in the same sentence? You're kidding, right?

>
> And this entire storyline could be taken to mean if you take pity on your
> enemies, they'll only come back to kill your best friend's husband, kill
> others and blame you for it, and let them control your life in ways you
> never intended (up to and including possession.)

MMM, but that is not in accord with the whole "ending the cycle of hatred"
thing, which declares otherwise.

<snip comments about how wonderful Xena is in comparison to other TV>

> > And if Gabrielle loses her soul, then, as the prayer to

> > Artemis (the "anyone listening" bit I read as that of a cynic [today, she
> > would be an atheist or agnostic] who has met some gods and knows how petty

> > and cruel they can be) shows, Xena will lose hers in turn.
>
> "atheist or agnostic"? I think you're projecting unsupported assumptions
> on to Xena here.

Don't want to get into a religious debate.
Xena is cynical toward the gods that she knows exists.
I was arguing against folks on the Xenaverse list (where this thing was
originally posted) who said that she was not praying to Artemis in
particular, that's all.

> I'll argue the point of Xena and religion. She is a former follower of =
> the god Ares, and a friend to the children of Abraham. See the Abraham-
> style episode and the story about Goliath for my offerings of proof.
> The basic difference in Christianity and Judaism is whether or not we
> believe the Messiah has come. Xena played a Messiah in an episode.

You mean in the ep Destiny? (nope, you mean mortal beloved, I see from
below)

<snip summary of Dr Faustus story which you compare to Marcus stories>

> Does this seem familiar? Say, as the story of Marcus?
> Of course, if you're the hero of an action/adventure show, you can't =
> just let tragedy stand. So, Xena assumes the Messianic role and risks =
> her soul to save Marcus.

? She kills him, and that is another evil deed for her to carry -- Is that
what you mean? Don't see that as all that much risk. She has killed lots
of people. In Marcus's case, it was justified, and is hardly going to
weigh against her as much as, say, Cirrah.

> And that she did so later identified her to =
> Hades in IS, so I come to the conclusion it was intentionally written
> this way. And risking your eternal soul is much more a statement of
> love than just "a kiss", IMO.

Well, Marcus *was* the love of Xena's life at one time, true,
but he's sort of dead now. Sort of puts a damper on things.

> > And all these problems are without regard to the obvious problems the

> > episode has with pacing (it doesn't matter to my argument whether it was

> > done in 45 minutes or 90). Nor are they affected by the fact that the

> > teaser, while a great sequence in and of itself, is five wasted minutes as
> > far as the main story goes (why not just start with Joxer delivering the
> > news of her escape? why spend so much precious time merely setting up the

> > situation?).
>
> Because television writing is more about quantity than quality.

MMM. Disagree. TV is very much about telling the story in the time
allowed, not a second more or less. TV writers *must* be able to slice
away every single wasted scene, word, and idea in thier scripts. For the
ep to spend so much time on C's escape and so little time on the
courtship between G and P indicates that someone forgot that cardinal
rule, probably because the jail escape scene was too good to lose. Lots
of writing is too good to lose, but you have to lose it or end up ruining
the story.

> TV shows are lucky to get a cast
> read-through before shooting. The producers might have done this
> differently
> if they had the time to think about it, but I doubt they had the time.

Well, in this case, it was written by one of the staff writers. And it
was a key episode in terms of series continuity. And it was originally
scripted as a two parter and then cut down to one (money reasons, I
guess). They had lots of time to work on this one. They spent a lot of
time on it. And they flubbed big time, IMO.

> Okay, I promised my views on sub-text, and here they are.

> My view agrees very much with yours. I agree that X and G love one =

> another. I agree that "just good friends" is woefully inadequate, and
> the lesbian part does make me uncomfortable.

In _that_, we differ quite a bit.

> I see them as sisters in
> the way siblings are in their better moments, and they have more better
> moments than most. The jealousies, teasing, etc. are siblings in their
> lesser moments.

Xena does have a big sister or motherly attitude
(the ear scrubbing scene in ADITL) One can view that as butch, however.

With G, it's harder. G's feelings for
X are more complicated -- they started out as hero worship, sort of
groupie/fangirl, and that is still there, with lots of other aspects
layered on. I am waiting for more episodes before making any statments
about how G sees their relationship (in terms of main text),
other than to say that it is really really profound and deep
love (like, obviously).

> And again, I acknowledge Liz Friedman and the existence of her contri-
> butions. But I don't have to agree with them,

Mmm, well, they aren't there to be agreed with or disagreed with.
They are there to be interpreted. G and X are in a hot tub together.
That can't be disagreed with. How you choose to see the meaning of that
is up to you, however.

> no more than I have to =
> agree with George Lucas that showing Chewie fixing the Falcon in TESB =
> somehow made the entire Wookie race too technologically advanced to use
> in "Return of the Jedi".

Ah. But this sort of thing is not was TPTB are doing with the subtext.
It isn't that Liz F and company are saying, G and X are lovers, and we are
hinting at that in these scenes. It's that they are leaving the entire
issue of what G and X are to each other up to each of us to decide for
ourselves. Nothing to agree or disagree with, just a multitude of ways
to enjoy the show.

> Let me start with the line where Gabby says "I've never felt more
> comfortable around anyone. Except you, of course." I found Renee's
> delivery dismissive, like she was saying "You're a nice person, but
> you're no Perdicus."

I have seen people put so many different spins on the manner of delivery
of this or that line of dialogue in this show that it is simply amazing.
Lucy especially is so damn good at using tone of voice that you can read
what she says any way you wish, and nobody can argue with you, really. I
am starting to keep away from manner of delivery discussions because they
are just too damn subjective, IMO, which doesn't invalidate them as far
as anyone's personal views are, naturally.

> Then there's the scene where Gab and Perdicus are in the bedroom
> together. Their eye contact with each other was quite steamy, and
> real in the way Playboy's version of bedroom scenes aren't. The humor
> was a nice touch, and the eye contact was everything in seeing how
> Gabby really was attracted to Perdicus. And yes, they had sex.

Most folks who are pro-subtext think that X and G are bisexual, so
this is not really anti-subtext. Besides (to take the position that
they are 100% lesbian for a moment), Gabrielle could have just been
confused. Sometimes it takes a while, decades even, to figure out
what it is you like and don't like. ;}

> Next, there's Xena's prayer. Xena is quite concerned for Gabrielle's
> innocence and the light in her eyes. All those pacifist beliefs, and
> I think more. Gabrielle's innocence goes beyond "blood innocence", as
> in, she hasn't killed. Gab's innocence is about how love conquers all
> and is a wonderful thing (FHTBT). And to tell me Xena would then turn
> around and introduce her to sexual practices considered dubious and =
> jaded to most (and we all know the thread I'm talking about), well, =
> let's just say I can't agree with it.

??? Explain more slowly, please.
If X desires G sexually, then the views others have as to
the expression of that desire being "jaded" or "dubious"
would not enter into her consideration. I have yet to meet
a lesbian or bisexual woman (and I have met more than a couple)
who thought that what she did in bed with her girlfriend was
in the least bit wrong.

As to preserving G's "innocence" in the sexual sense, if
that was so important to Xena, why did she allow her to
go to bed with P? Certainly after the wedding, if not before,
that would pose no obstacle to G and X becoming lovers.

> And then there's the aftermath. Gabrielle was stunned by Perdicus' death.
> She lost her bard's abilities because of it and only got the abilities =
> back when she knew Perdicus' killer felt some guilt over it. If that's =
> not true heterosexual love, then somebody give me a definition, will ya?

::blink blink:: That was unexpected.
Well, as I said at great length, I cannot be convinced that G loved the
boy. She thought she did, OK. Made a big, big, big mistake marrying him.

She sent loving thoughts his way after he died, yes.
I send loving thoughts toward Constance Coiner, my teacher and
friend who died on TWA 800, quite often. "love" can mean lots of things.

And remember that they knew each other growing up -- they were best
friends all through whatever the Xena universe has in place of grade and
high school. Having such a person die on you can be very very traumatic
with or without any heterosexual love interest involved.

> I'm not going to claim I speak for anyone but myself. And if the
> world could keep itself as individuals talking instead of groups,
> the world would be a much better place. The subtext analysis is
> just as valid as mine. We're just looking at different places in the
> text.

Glad to hear someone being reasonable about this for a change.

> Just goes to show Joxer doesn't threaten men the way he does women.
> Besides, I still think you're taking Joxer a wee bit too seriously.

Well, I am taking the show a wee bit too seriously. ;}
Seriously, I am an academic by training. Analysis is our meat and drink.
Over analysis is our joy in life. ;}

> > In the end, what seems to have been meant as a careful meditation on the

> > depth of Gabrielle's commitment to pacifism, showing her ideals being

> > tested and tempered in the fire of being made an instant widow, becomesan
> > incomprehensible muddle. Just as Callisto was an artistic success, I rate

> > this one an artistic failure.
>
> I dunno about "careful meditation". I think this show was just an excuse
> to bring back Callisto (hence the title as opposed to "Gabrielle's
> Wedding"
> or some such) and driven by commercial concerns such as ratings.

Well, sure. That doesn't stop it from being about other things as well.
Huck Finn is a long story about drifting down the Missisippi. Doesn't
stop it from being about racism and slavery at the same time.

> > This is just one example of what I have been saying for some time now --

> > that the way Joxer is coming across for way too many people (as a
> > detraction) is not what the producers had in mind. Instead, a lot of
> > little things have gone wrong, at every level of production, and the

> > result is that the redeeming qualities which we are supposed to be seeing

> > in him are not showing up, for many of us, as they should when they
> > should.

> You said this? When? (jumps to avoid flames, several times) =

On the Xenaverse list, yes. Here, perhaps not. I sort of forget where I
say things sometimes.

> Rick Ridgway
> (rid...@world-access.com)

-- Glaurung (Academic Dragon) -- bb0...@binghamton.edu --
USPS address: finger -l bb0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu

===========================================================
Q: How would you change Callisto's character if you could?
A: I think I'd like more clothes. --Hudson Leike at the Xena con.

[Russ Royalty]

On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:20:26 GMT, Bea...@ibm.net (BeanSong) wrote:
><g> grin
><eg> evil grin
><beg> big evil grin (?)
><vbeg> very big evil grin

Hm, never seen <beg> or <vbeg>. I remember them as
<g> grin
<eg> evil grin
<veg> very evil grin

but that's from my BBS days long ago...

[BeanSong]

On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:01:25 -0600, Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu> wrote:

>In article <5h22sj$e...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
> paul...@ix.netcom.com(Paul Henderson) wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> What's BGSB stand for?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
>Bilibous Green Sports Bra -- that halter top thingie she's been wearing
>this season.
>
>Sorry, in the future I shall try to spell it out the first time I use it
>an a post. Part of the problem is I don't know how to spell bilibous. ;}

::whispering::

Psst, excuse me, Your Great and Wonderful Dragon-ness <fawning g>... um, I'm
sure Your Cleverness <smarmy g> would NEVER misspell anything-- ahem-- your
impressive claws must have overpowered that silly, toy-like
designed-by-fools-who-don't-worship-Your-Mightiness keyboard <fulsome g>,
forcing you to type that extra "b." (Per Webster's primary definition:
"bilious" is "of or pertaining to the bile," which happens to be "a yellow, or
greenish, viscid fluid... secreted by the liver.") <servile g>

::in normal tones::

For the newbies among the rest of us lowly humans (far, far below Your
Stratosphericness <unctuous g>), I'm starting a list of Xena-specific (and
general) acronyms:

ATX/S-SPECIFIC ACRONYMS
-----------------------
note: quotation marks surround episode titles
ADITL "A Day in the Life"
ANE "A Necessary Evil"
BGSB bilious green sports bra
GGG Great Goddess Gabrielle
GGGHD Great Goddess Gabrielle Honor Defenders
(a group sworn to defend GGG's honor)
ROC Renee O'Connor
RoC "Return of Callisto"

GENERAL ACRONYMS & EMOTICONS
----------------------------
BTW by the way
IIRC if I recall correctly
IMHO in my humble opinion
IMO in my opinion
J/K just kidding
IRL in real life
LOL laugh out loud
OTOH on the other hand
ROTFL roll on the floor laughing
ROTFLMAO " my ass off
TPTB the powers that be
:) smile
:-) smile
:-} crooked smile
;) wink (same variants as above)
:p~~~~~ "Bronx cheer" a.k.a. "raspberry" (a less-than-polite sound effect)

<g> grin
<eg> evil grin
<beg> big evil grin (?)
<vbeg> very big evil grin

Please feel free to expand this / correct any errors! :)

--Bean
----------
"I'm more myself than ever." Xena

[Glaurung]

In article <33471d11...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>,

Bea...@ibm.net wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:01:25 -0600, Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu> wrote:
> >In article <5h22sj$e...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
> > paul...@ix.netcom.com(Paul Henderson) wrote:
>
> >> What's BGSB stand for?
> >

> >Bilibous Green Sports Bra -- that halter top thingie she's been wearing
> >this season.
> >
> >Sorry, in the future I shall try to spell it out the first time I use it
> >an a post. Part of the problem is I don't know how to spell bilibous. ;}
>
> ::whispering::
>
> Psst, excuse me, Your Great and Wonderful Dragon-ness <fawning g>... um, I'm
> sure Your Cleverness <smarmy g> would NEVER misspell anything-- ahem-- your
> impressive claws must have overpowered that silly, toy-like
> designed-by-fools-who-don't-worship-Your-Mightiness keyboard <fulsome g>,

::chuckle:: Well, this new notebook (desktops take up too much room and
don't take the flight home well) has one of those liftable keyboards
which gives the imression of dinkiness... but in truth, this dragon is
always in too much of a hurry to find words in the dictionary so I just
sort of guess if I am not sure-- and I am not perfect (no, no really, I
am imperfect <G>), so I make mistakes. Which is not to mention words like
thier which my claws seem to think ought to be their (or is it the other
way round?) -- so your kind opinion of me is not entirely warranted.

> forcing you to type that extra "b." (Per Webster's primary definition:
> "bilious" is "of or pertaining to the bile," which happens to be "a yellow, or
> greenish, viscid fluid... secreted by the liver.") <servile g>

Thank you for the precise definition. I will try to remember the correct
spelling. Newsxpress has no spellchecker, and neither does Dejanews,
which I am using lately since my feed has started showing lots of replies
without originals, and half as many posts as there should be ::sigh::

> ::in normal tones::
>
> For the newbies among the rest of us lowly humans (far, far below Your
> Stratosphericness <unctuous g>), I'm starting a list of Xena-specific (and
> general) acronyms:
>
> ATX/S-SPECIFIC ACRONYMS
> -----------------------
> note: quotation marks surround episode titles
> ADITL "A Day in the Life"
> ANE "A Necessary Evil"
> BGSB bilious green sports bra
> GGG Great Goddess Gabrielle
> GGGHD Great Goddess Gabrielle Honor Defenders
> (a group sworn to defend GGG's honor)
> ROC Renee O'Connor
> RoC "Return of Callisto"

These last two can get confusing, especially if the shift key sticks. ;}

> GENERAL ACRONYMS & EMOTICONS
> ----------------------------
> BTW by the way
> IIRC if I recall correctly
> IMHO in my humble opinion
> IMO in my opinion
> J/K just kidding
> IRL in real life
> LOL laugh out loud
> OTOH on the other hand
> ROTFL roll on the floor laughing
> ROTFLMAO " my ass off
> TPTB the powers that be
> :) smile
> :-) smile
> :-} crooked smile
> ;) wink (same variants as above)
> :p~~~~~ "Bronx cheer" a.k.a. "raspberry" (a less-than-polite sound
effect)

Well, *I* was under the impression that it showed you were drolling, as in
"Aphrodite's 'warrior' costume in the 'Love takes a holiday' ep of Herc is
totally awesome. :P~~~~ " (and it is, IMO. When is this goddess going to
realize that it's not the acreage of skin that you show which is sexy,
but the attitute you put on with the clothes?)

and of course

:P indicates sticking one's tongue out.
;} indicates a sort of toothy, slant-eyed grin, as might be found on
a dragon who practices piracy. ;}

> <g> grin
> <eg> evil grin
> <beg> big evil grin (?)
> <vbeg> very big evil grin
>
> Please feel free to expand this / correct any errors! :)
>
> --Bean

Thanks Bean!

-- Glaurung (Academic Dragon) -- bb0...@binghamton.edu --
USPS address: finger -l bb0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu

===========================================================
Q: How would you change Callisto's character if you could?
A: I think I'd like more clothes. --Hudson Leike at the Xena con.

(I like her. But somebody *must* feed her before she vanishes)

[Sylvia L Green]

On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 06:41:01 GMT, d...@not.pobox.com (Russ Royalty)
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:20:26 GMT, Bea...@ibm.net (BeanSong) wrote:

>><g> grin
>><eg> evil grin
>><beg> big evil grin (?)
>><vbeg> very big evil grin
>

>Hm, never seen <beg> or <vbeg>. I remember them as
><g> grin
><eg> evil grin
><veg> very evil grin
>
>but that's from my BBS days long ago...

LOL!

Times change... technology improves and acronyms/emoticons get
modified... what next? Video NewsGroups? Uh, oh!<g> There goes the
crowd.<vbweg>

Sylvia, the XO ;-)

[roma...@aol.com]

In article <8597319...@dejanews.com>, Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu> writes:

>> Please feel free to expand this / correct any errors! :)
>>
>> --Bean
>
>Thanks Bean!

(-|-) Startrek-deep space 9

}}};-( Klingon

KMA (i dont see this on ATX )
ROMAR }}} :-) <Ron Martin>
O Theos mou ! Echo ten labrida en te mou kephale.
Why do they sterilize the needles for lethal injection?
Science Fiction Time Line
XENA--------------------------------NOW----------------------STAR TREK

[Rick Ridgway]

ah...@imap1.asu.edu wrote:
>
> **I cut out most of the oringinal postings to save bandwidth & get to the
> **point, please read the original posts :)
>

> > The source material is Christopher Marlowe's "The Tragical History of
> > Doctor Faustus", an Elizabethan poem which was required reading from the
> > Norton anthology. In the poem, the Devil came to a scientist and
> > promised
> > him the secrets of the universe. He could have the run of the universe,
> > wine, women, and song for twenty years, and then the Devil would take
> > his soul.
> >
> > Twenty years pass, the Devil comes back. At the same time, God appears.
> > God says He will forgive Faustus if he will renounce evil and he can go
> > to Heaven. The tragedy comes in when Faustus says no, he's evil, and

> > can't accept forgiveness. Faustus then goes to Hell where he doesn't
> > really belong. Does this seem familiar? Say, as the story of Marcus?
>

> First of all, I don't mean any disrespect to you, I just wanted to make
> some things clear about one of my favorite author's work.
>
> "The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus" was a tragedy drama by
> Christopher Marlowe, not a poem, although written in a poetic style(blank
> verse, to be exact). Dr. Faustus was a well learned scholar & a medical
> doctor, but he still craved more knowledge. So he turned to witchery &
> conjures up Mephastophilis, one of Lucifer's devils. Dr. Faustus offers
> his soul to Lucifer in exchange for 24 years of ultimate power &
> knowledge; to have Mephastophilis serve him & give him anything(power
> knowledge, ect) he wanted.

> He, as you said, believes that he is too evil to be forgiven even by God,

> however, it wasn't God who came to him at the end of his 24 years, it was
> several of his colleagues who tells him to repent so that God may have
> mercy on his soul. In the last hour of his life, he contemplates this in
> a long monologue, but he never repents; he is certain that he's deeds are
> so evil that even God cannot forgive him.

It was eight or nine years ago when I read it. I'm actually happy
my recollection wasn't that bad. I mis-remembered some details,
but it seems I got the story right. Yeah!!

[Aethe...@worldnet.att.net]

That Irritateing blond wrote:

>
> On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:33:08 -0600, Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >First
> >
> >Some
> >
> >spoiler
> >
> >space
> >
> >for
> >
> >those
> >
> >new
> >
> >fans
> >
> >who
> >
> >are
> >
> >cursed
> >
> >with
> >
> >wgn
> >
> >and
> >
> >have
> >
> >not
> >
> >seen
> >
> >this
> >
> >one
> >
> >yet
>

> >Callisto -- the entire teaser is utterly fabulous. However, this woman
> >needs to eat more (prison food must be really awful). Seeing her
> >stick-figure arms is bad enough -- it conjures visions out of a Dorothy
> >Allison or Denise Gardina novel, the house that is falling apart, the coal
> >mine or clothing factory where the parents work shut down, the little girl
> >who is always going hungry. But when C got out of that chair, and we had
> >shots of her bare legs (and bare feet only makes it worse) -- those legs
> >are straight out of Dachau, Ravensbruk, or some other concentration camp
> >with a name I am not sure how to spell. It's painful just looking at them.

Goodness: where did you dig this one up? it surely must have
been buried for months! But I thought her legs were rather nice and the
bare feet quite pretty. Ok, she's a bit thin, but not like a Soltau or
Auschwitz victim: and I think the comparison is a bit sick, IMHO:
Callisto must weigh over 100lb: some concentration camp victims were 70
and 80lb, or even much less, and I'm talking men over 30, who died of
sheer starvation and overwork.
>
> tehehe how much DOES she wegh? and how tall is she? I'm wondering
> 'cause a friend of mine said I was built like calisto (altho I would
> need a little more than a leather wonderbra if I wanted clevage). I
> re-watched "calisto" and almost have to agree. I even do the little
> braid thingies with my hair, tho mine is a tad darker... closer to
> gabbys
> anyways sorry Im obsessing about my underweghtnes..

So eat more! Or work out!

> >Gabrielle sees Xena praying. When the moment comes, and she stands before
> >the sleeping Callisto, she gives up her chance at vengeance. There are
> >things worth fighting and dying for, but none worth killing for. And at
> >the end of the episode, she is able to find the inner peace necessary to
> >send loving thoughts toward Perdicus. I think it is safe to say that
> >Callisto has never been able to send any conscious thoughts of love toward
> >her mother and sister

Maybe not since they died, but I see no reason to believe she
didn't love them a lot before that.

-- she is too preoccupied with hating Xena.
>

> Ohh!.... did she say that? what an awsome quote! I feel a new .sig
> comeing on!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'm going to pretend to be good for a while; see how
things work out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[That Irritateing blond]

On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:33:08 -0600, Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu>
wrote:

>First

>
>Some
>
>spoiler
>
>space
>
>for
>
>those
>
>new
>
>fans
>
>who
>
>are
>
>cursed
>
>with
>
>wgn
>
>and
>
>have
>
>not
>
>seen
>
>this
>
>one
>
>yet

>Callisto -- the entire teaser is utterly fabulous. However, this woman
>needs to eat more (prison food must be really awful). Seeing her
>stick-figure arms is bad enough -- it conjures visions out of a Dorothy
>Allison or Denise Gardina novel, the house that is falling apart, the coal
>mine or clothing factory where the parents work shut down, the little girl
>who is always going hungry. But when C got out of that chair, and we had
>shots of her bare legs (and bare feet only makes it worse) -- those legs
>are straight out of Dachau, Ravensbruk, or some other concentration camp
>with a name I am not sure how to spell. It's painful just looking at them.

tehehe how much DOES she wegh? and how tall is she? I'm wondering
'cause a friend of mine said I was built like calisto (altho I would
need a little more than a leather wonderbra if I wanted clevage). I
re-watched "calisto" and almost have to agree. I even do the little
braid thingies with my hair, tho mine is a tad darker... closer to
gabbys
anyways sorry Im obsessing about my underweghtnes..

>Gabrielle sees Xena praying. When the moment comes, and she stands before
>the sleeping Callisto, she gives up her chance at vengeance. There are
>things worth fighting and dying for, but none worth killing for. And at
>the end of the episode, she is able to find the inner peace necessary to
>send loving thoughts toward Perdicus. I think it is safe to say that
>Callisto has never been able to send any conscious thoughts of love toward
>her mother and sister -- she is too preoccupied with hating Xena.

[Romar666]

In article <33543E...@worldnet.att.net>, Aethe...@worldnet.att.net
writes:

>
>That Irritateing blond wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:33:08 -0600, Glaurung <bb0...@binghamton.edu>
>> wrote:
>>

It is April 18th when I am writing this. It has been almost a month since
this above article was posted.

How long do you enclude spoiler space after the show airs? 2 weeks? a
month?
Is there some ROT to use?

Thank-you again for your support

Romar666(Ron Martin) }}}:-(
Rules of acquisition number 29
When someone says "It's not the money" they're lying

[Morgan Dhu]

roma...@aol.com (Romar666) wrote:

>How long do you enclude spoiler space after the show airs? 2 weeks? a
>month?
>Is there some ROT to use?

I would think, out of courtesy, one should wait a year (even though I
never remember to do so myself), since outside North America, people
are just seeing first season episodes now...

An SF&F discussion list I'm on mandates spoiler headings and space for
everything, always, just in case, for instance, there's someone who
hasn't read the original Foundation Trilogy yet, as an example...

--Morgan Dhu

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you have two loaves of bread, sell one and buy a hyacinth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~