AOQ Firefly Review 4: "Shindig"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
(or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
Writer: Jane Espensen
Director: Vern Gillum
Kinda lackluster opening this week, starting with still another bar-
fight. The thematic reason for this is blunt and equally uninspiring
- to put Inara side-by-side with this world she's moving in and show
how much she doesn't fit in. The rest of the episode is about Mal not
being a part of her world. This is not the richest or most exciting
of subtexts, although as discussed below, there at least ends up being
a little more to it than that. The holographic pool table is one of
the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
the 'verse. That's in contrast to the floating chandelier later, a
useless device that seems perfectly believable.
This glimpse into the life of a Companion leads us to Atherton Wing,
who plays the role of the charming and self-deprecating man of high
culture. Re-watching, there are hints from moment one in Atterton's
performance that he's playing a part, and that there's an ugly person
with a sense of entitlement trying to peer out, but it's not obvious
until the situation arises. The dislike between him and Mal is like a
living thing, and Harrow (a pretty good supporting character) is in on
that game too. The dialogue, by which I mean the combination of the
words themselves and the timing, crackles here and elsewhere in the
episode. "Shindig" is a standout in that regard even among Whedon-
produced shows. It should be mentioned that these sequences take
place at the ball, where people with more of a conscious reaction to
visual things than me will be entirely justified in gushing over the
look of both the set and filmed product. Like many others, I always
get in the mood for fresh fruit after seeing that table. Oh, and love
the doorknob/key thing. I think the format of the swordfight should
have been based more on fencing, but I'm a little biased in that
regard...
Factoid: According to the commentary track, Mal knowing the dance
while talking to Inara, which seems out of character, was a necessity
given the length of the conversation, and "I think I know this one"
was a last-minute overdub to cover for how familiar the actor had
gotten with the dance steps.
The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
him. Doesn't seem to work. Weirder still is the fact that he's so
into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
"and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
reason she's not a normal Companion?
That in turn brings us to the twist in the meaning of the story, which
is the way Inara doesn't necessarily fit into "her" world. She
actually belongs on the frontier more than among her peers. We don't
know all that much about the Companion profession, but drifting around
the outer planets might be atypical behavior; a bit of a rebel?
Matching that, although it's maybe addressed too briefly given that it
didn't register until I heard the commentary, is that Mal doesn't fit
in nicely with fellow criminals like Badger. Hence the need for a
third option: this particular ship with all its contradictions (a
criminal enterprise whose prominent members include a man of sorta-
honor and a skilled professional). As in all Joss Whedon shows,
_Firefly_ turns out to be about a very select "created family" of
people who don't belong anywhere else.
Where does Kaylee fit into that theme? She gets a fair chunk of
screen-time in what could almost be considered a B-arc. It's also
about identity and belonging, as we see when Mal cluelessly offends
her when questioning what she'd do in a layer-cake dress, and
elsewhere during the episode. She's snubbed by the girls her age, but
eventually ends up a hit among the local men through her knowledge of
non-useless things. And takes a few souvenirs of different kinds
home. I'm struggling to see how that really informs or is influenced
by the main plot, though - what's the message? I'm inclined to just
treat these sequences as a chance to get to know Kaylee better and see
her in different situations, without a deeper meaning. Staite's
"wounded" facial expression is among the best in the business. One
thing that bothered me upon re-watching her encounter with the
Cordettes at the party is that first the one chick hits her with the
"standards" line that seems like it should instantly crush her
feelings of giddiness, and then the other useless girl acts friendly
and makes Kaylee feel bad while, in her own mind, trying to be
helpful. I feel like the order should be reversed. Here's the
reference to Mal as "Captain Tightpants," of course, a nickname that
sticks.
Stuff aboard Serenity gives the others their contractually obligated
appearances. Nothing pre-Badger jumps out as hugely noteworthy, but I
like the happy scenes between Zoe and Wash; gives one a sense of mixed
comfort and passion that we haven't seen from them so much in the
first three episodes. And of course, pretty people, let's get them
naked as often as possible. Before the BDM came out, my opinion was
that there was no way their marriage would've survived the series,
just because shows like this always go for the pain. It would've
given me reason to get really depressed when the breakup or death
happened. The fun stops when Badger gets it into his mind to keep
them from mounting a rescue attempt - the pan over to Kaylee and her
"hi," apparently a last-minute addition, is a good scene break.
Sometimes memory makes something funnier than it is. I had this
recollection of Wash having no reaction at all to Jayne suggesting
that Zoe get nekkid, kinda refusing to rise to the obvious bait, and
then getting extemely panicked when Jayne suggested that he himself do
the same thing. I like that a little better than the actual scene,
which is similar. Anyway, they miss out on a chance at a diversion
when River enters, and I can't really blame them, because it's a scene
that pops out of the screen. Suddenly seeing the crazy chick having
poise (not to mention talking in complete sentences) and affecting
Badger's own accent and mannerisms at him is mesmerizing. How quickly
she reads him at a glance also reinforces the notion suggested in the
last couple episodes that she's got still undefined mojo of some sort
at work - not sure how quickly I picked up on that on first viewing.
The fact that our supporting cast never even gets started on their
rescue attempt grates slightly; not a crippling problem for the
episode, but a minor annoyance. At least they were actively
planning. But they did know roughly how much time they had to work
with to save their captain, and they let him down. It feels a little
like going for the cheap joke at the expense of the characters'
integrity. An isolated fact that clearly has absolutely no connection
whatsoever to the previous sentence : "Shindig" was written by _Buffy_
veteran Jane Espenson, whose contributions for that show have featured
supporting cast members failing to notice friends replaced by robots,
and getting distracted by jell-o whilst trying to stop murders.
Oh, yeah, there's the sword-fight itself. It's tainted some by the
strange plotting mentioned above; the story doesn't quite hold
together for me. Parts seem a bit clunky on a micro scale too, and
I'll use an exchange during the climax as an example of what I'm
talking about. Harrow says, in response to Mal drawing first blood
and starting to enjoy himself, "he thinks he's doing well, doesn't
he?" Okay, that's a good moment and it makes its point right there.
Inara's followup "he's being toyed with" is entirely unnecessary. I
used to rank "Shindig" as among my favorites of the early episodes,
and it's fallen some in my estimation because of stuff like that. But
amidst all the concerns about the end, it's still exciting, and it
makes one wince every time Ath takes another little swipe. The
episode succeeds at getting the audience firmly on the heroes' side so
that seeing them triumph (by going outside the rules, naturally) and
kick dirt into Atherton's face is a pleasure to watch. The other
element that works so well is that Fillion and Baccarin make the
audience completely believe in how deeply they care about each other -
this episode is one of the best snapshots of their relationship of the
series - so having them sail off cow-gazing together elicits a smile.
One more word on Inara offering her services to Atherton in (apparent)
desperation to save Capt. Tightpants: the shooting script suggests
that she's doing this strictly to provide a distraction so Mal can
win. That's not what I got from the way it's played, though,
particularly her startled reaction afterward when he takes advantage
of it.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "And if you've selected my proposal to hear, then the honor that you
do me flatters my... my honor"
- Jayne's reactions during the window-shopping sequence ("is she mad
or somethin'?")
- Jayne eating everything in the Badger scene
- Jayne stealing the cards
- Kaylee mimicking Mal
So...
One-sentence summary: Pleasant overall.
AOQ rating: Good
[Ratings so far:
1) "Serenity" - Excellent
2) "The Train Job" - Good
3) "Bushwhacked" - Decent
4) "Shindig" - Good]
Atlas Bugged
news:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
> Writer: Jane Espensen
> Director: Vern Gillum
>
> The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
> the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
> ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
> would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
> believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
> considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
> him. Doesn't seem to work.
Big problem for me, that one. Like the assumption last week that Mal has
this certainty about Stockholm Syndrome, here again we have a social
phenomenon raised into a central plot point that doesn't make a great deal
of sense. We understand that societal mores can get pretty weird. I had no
problem with the depiction of "witch burning" that was soon to come. But
this was among the upper-classes in a post-industrial and space-faring
society. Dueling? No. Very hard for me to buy, except as a storytelling
device, a blatant one, and I'll get to that below in my comments re
Espenson.
>Weirder still is the fact that he's so
> into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
> else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
> conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
> decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
> it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
> down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
> okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
> chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
And don't forget the 180-degree reversal from this we see in HEART OF GOLD.
A character doesn't always make the same choices, but the Mal here isn't the
same guy as the Mal there.
Series cancellation wouldn't have been an issue because *this* Mal would not
have lived long enough to make more than 14 episodes.
> I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
> "and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
> rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
> that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
> acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
> reason she's not a normal Companion?
As a whole, I rate this episode the series' worst, but you are right that if
you extract the good bits, you get plenty enough to watch. But Whedon
rarely fails in presenting a good A-story. So I blame Espenson, and more
about that below.
>
>As in all Joss Whedon shows,
> _Firefly_ turns out to be about a very select "created family" of
> people who don't belong anywhere else.
But they do sum up. That's part of what made the show impossibly good.
>
> Where does Kaylee fit into that theme? She gets a fair chunk of
> screen-time in what could almost be considered a B-arc. It's also
> about identity and belonging, as we see when Mal cluelessly offends
> her when questioning what she'd do in a layer-cake dress, and
> elsewhere during the episode. She's snubbed by the girls her age, but
> eventually ends up a hit among the local men through her knowledge of
> non-useless things. And takes a few souvenirs of different kinds
> home. I'm struggling to see how that really informs or is influenced
> by the main plot, though - what's the message?
Correct. It's plenty good material by itself. But not integrated into the
main story.
>I'm inclined to just
> treat these sequences as a chance to get to know Kaylee better and see
> her in different situations, without a deeper meaning. Staite's
> "wounded" facial expression is among the best in the business. One
> thing that bothered me upon re-watching her encounter with the
> Cordettes at the party is that first the one chick hits her with the
> "standards" line that seems like it should instantly crush her
> feelings of giddiness, and then the other useless girl acts friendly
> and makes Kaylee feel bad while, in her own mind, trying to be
> helpful. I feel like the order should be reversed. Here's the
> reference to Mal as "Captain Tightpants," of course, a nickname that
> sticks.
>
> Stuff aboard Serenity gives the others their contractually obligated
> appearances.
The mere fact you are having those thoughts means it's a sub-par FIREFLY
episode.
Can you actually state - briefly - a unified overall theme for this episode?
One that's not contradicted somewhere along the way?
[...]
> The fact that our supporting cast never even gets started on their
> rescue attempt grates slightly; not a crippling problem for the
> episode, but a minor annoyance. At least they were actively
> planning. But they did know roughly how much time they had to work
> with to save their captain, and they let him down. It feels a little
> like going for the cheap joke at the expense of the characters'
> integrity. An isolated fact that clearly has absolutely no connection
> whatsoever to the previous sentence : "Shindig" was written by _Buffy_
> veteran Jane Espenson, whose contributions for that show have featured
> supporting cast members failing to notice friends replaced by robots,
> and getting distracted by jell-o whilst trying to stop murders.
I don't think it's unrelated at all. Espenson is ill suited to sci-fi,
though she may be fine for fantasy. She penned a relatively poor BSG just
recently, and she's the editor of the faux-philosophy FIREFLY book, which
demonstrated an amazingly poor understanding of the show in many chapters.
[I analyze that volume's faults on my review page
<http://snipurl.com/krwl>]
I really don't know her or her other works much, but three strikes is enough
for me to say she's "out," by which I mean she's either not so good as a
writer or just not so good in this genre. I think she misunderstood how
Whedon wanted the 'Verse to appear very, very realistic. The story would
have worked fine in a setting where duels were believable.
The three most important aspects of FIREFLY are writing, writing, and
writing, and this stands as arguably the worst of the 14 episodes in terms
of writing.
>
> Oh, yeah, there's the sword-fight itself. It's tainted some by the
> strange plotting mentioned above; the story doesn't quite hold
> together for me. Parts seem a bit clunky on a micro scale too, and
> I'll use an exchange during the climax as an example of what I'm
> talking about. Harrow says, in response to Mal drawing first blood
> and starting to enjoy himself, "he thinks he's doing well, doesn't
> he?" Okay, that's a good moment and it makes its point right there.
> Inara's followup "he's being toyed with" is entirely unnecessary. I
> used to rank "Shindig" as among my favorites of the early episodes,
> and it's fallen some in my estimation because of stuff like that.
Writing, writing, and writing. Costumes, sets, performances, it's all fine.
We've elimnated all the other suspects, Watson.
>But
> amidst all the concerns about the end, it's still exciting, and it
> makes one wince every time Ath takes another little swipe.
Direction. Check. I'm telling you, everyone but Jane is innocent.
> One-sentence summary: Pleasant overall.
That's damning with faint praise in FIREFLY-world.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I agree, but that's because I never found a FIREFLY episode or story that
was bad. It's one of about three stories I give a "C" instead of B or A
And, trust me - Kaylee fixed up all purdy is a major plus for me. This
episode gets a lot of points for that, then loses 'em.
Again, my blow-by-blow short reviews are here: <http://snipurl.com/krwl>
Atlas Bugged, Sunday, April 08, 2007
--
SERENITY/FIREFLY FAQ, PLUS!
http://snipurl.com/k8ui "One page, all you need to know, referenced."
STARGATE ATLANTIS FAQ
http://snipurl.com/SGAFAQ "Still just a draft, perhaps daft, help to make it
better."
GOODBYE, SG-1
http://snipurl.com/1d8kw "Homage to the legend w/ last ep comments, no
spoilers."
TROLL/RATS:
http://snipurl.com/19k1q "Referenced guide to stinkers that hide."
Donny Macro
Donny Macro
"Donny Macro" <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote in message
news:ZVbSh.7242$Cl.6384@trndny08...
> Why is "Shindig" number 4? what order are you going in?
>
my bad ... I was confused
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
> hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
> machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
again it wouldve been nice for whedon to hire someone to get the technology right
this is one of those -aint we clever- production things
which might or might not fit in the larger context
like do they use horses because they cant afford hovercraft
but they can afford at least one interstellar journey
and holographic bar window or pool balls
> Factoid: According to the commentary track, Mal knowing the dance
> while talking to Inara, which seems out of character, was a necessity
> given the length of the conversation, and "I think I know this one"
> was a last-minute overdub to cover for how familiar the actor had
> gotten with the dance steps.
sergeants usually arent drawn from the upper crust
but mal mightve been from that end of society before the war
then again if he were wouldnt he knew about dueling protocol?
he clearly wasnt a criminal before the war
small rancher perhaps?
> That in turn brings us to the twist in the meaning of the story, which
> is the way Inara doesn't necessarily fit into "her" world. She
> actually belongs on the frontier more than among her peers. We don't
> know all that much about the Companion profession, but drifting around
> the outer planets might be atypical behavior; a bit of a rebel?
one of the things about inara is its a trend in recent sf
for the author to bring in space age courtesans
in a -aint we daring to tweak societys nose- ploy
without really dealing with the psychological implications of that
its presented that this is perfectly natural behavior
and its only evol christian repression that forces humans
into unnatural pair mating
mating strategies for a species are evolved (even genetic) behavior
and theres evidence that most h sapiens are mostly monogamous
and this is the healthiest life for us (in terms of longetivity etc)
a literary function of science fiction is to explore
how technology can change the human condition
the twentieth century saw widespread devaluation of wombs
which has make economically viable for women to do many things
other than produce babies - such as dangerous jobs as soldier and fireman
inara could be a device to explore how much of our mating behavior is learned
and how much inherited and what we can change and what are the cost and benefits
they do a little of that in hearts of gold
but mostly theyre playing cliched romantic-jealousy fiction
overlayed with the apparent tweaking of modern society
just another place where firefly touched on what could be an interesting subject
but got lazy
> Oh, yeah, there's the sword-fight itself. It's tainted some by the
> strange plotting mentioned above; the story doesn't quite hold
> together for me. Parts seem a bit clunky on a micro scale too, and
> I'll use an exchange during the climax as an example of what I'm
> talking about. Harrow says, in response to Mal drawing first blood
it could also be intended as parallel to the war
that mal was doing his own thing on an outer planet
ran up against the alliance unexpectedly and got in a fight he couldnt win
but for -the principle of thing- decided to fight anyway
that could then point to a resolution to serenity valley
you dont lose when someone tells you you lost
you lose when you tell yourself you lost
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> this was among the upper-classes in a post-industrial and space-faring
> society. Dueling? No. Very hard for me to buy, except as a storytelling
the usual reason for banning duels
is that its wasteful to kill young men in duels
when you could put them in an army
and kill them at greater profit to society overall
its not about whether its seen as archaic or immoral
Don Sample
"Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
Duelling has been a part of most societies, throughout human history,
especially those that have established an essentially parasitic
aristocratic class, such as the Alliance. It is almost always a vice of
the aristocrats.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"Donny Macro" <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
> Why is "Shindig" number 4? what order are you going in?
I assume that the order he is following is:
1 Serenity
2 The Train Job
3 Bushwhacked
4 Shindig
5 Safe
6 Our Mrs. Reynolds
7 Jaynestown
8 Out of Gas
9 Ariel
10 War Stories
11 Trash
12 The Message
13 Heart of Gold
14 Objects in Space
Which is the proper order for the series.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> especially those that have established an essentially parasitic
> aristocratic class, such as the Alliance. It is almost always a vice of
> the aristocrats.
do you want to step outside the bar
and deal with this outside?
aristocrats might be the most ritualistic about it
but these kinds of excessive displays take place all over society
Donny Macro
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-CB5106...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <ZVbSh.7242$Cl.6384@trndny08>,
> "Donny Macro" <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
>
>> Why is "Shindig" number 4? what order are you going in?
>
> I assume that the order he is following is:
>
> 1 Serenity
> 2 The Train Job
> 3 Bushwhacked
> 4 Shindig
> 5 Safe
> 6 Our Mrs. Reynolds
> 7 Jaynestown
> 8 Out of Gas
> 9 Ariel
> 10 War Stories
> 11 Trash
> 12 The Message
> 13 Heart of Gold
> 14 Objects in Space
>
> Which is the proper order for the series.
Yeah, my bad, doesn't matter that I have watched my DVD set about 800 times
I still expect "Our Mrs. Reynolds" to be third like it was when it was
broadcast...
braindead moment... sorry
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> As a whole, I rate this episode the series' worst,
No thats the next one, Safe.
[snip]
> I don't think it's unrelated at all. Espenson is ill suited to sci-fi,
> though she may be fine for fantasy. She penned a relatively poor BSG just
> recently, and she's the editor of the faux-philosophy FIREFLY book, which
> demonstrated an amazingly poor understanding of the show in many chapters.
You can't necessarily blame Espensen for the duelling, the plots get broken
down by the writers as a whole and then she goes away to write the dialogue
and the more specific plot points. The duelling aspect would have been
brought up in a brainstorming session with all the writers.
[snip]
--
"Journeys! Intrigues! Sword fights! Young persons having adventures!
Beloved older characters having adventures too! Quests! Battles! Romance!
Snappy dialogue! Extravagant food! And the missing heir to the imperial
throne!" - Steven Brust - Lord of Castle Black
Atlas Bugged
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-6D2E6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> problem with the depiction of "witch burning" that was soon to come. But
>> this was among the upper-classes in a post-industrial and space-faring
>> society. Dueling? No. Very hard for me to buy, except as a
>> storytelling
>
> the usual reason for banning duels
> is that its wasteful to kill young men in duels
> when you could put them in an army
> and kill them at greater profit to society overall
>
> its not about whether its seen as archaic or immoral
Not my point at all. Duels are gone nowadays because we are not idiots -
not because they've been "banned."
Sure, there's lots of stupid stuff in modern society, and dueling would
probably look like rocket-science in the Muslim world.
The problem with it in the FIREFLY world is that it's a space-faring
society, and among the wealthy, that means the information-cat is out of the
bag. Post-industrial arsitocrats aren't that stupid, at least it's beyond
what I can believe.
In "Shindig," the dueling thing literally screams "story device!"
Atlas Bugged
> Duelling has been a part of most societies, throughout human history,
> especially those that have established an essentially parasitic
> aristocratic class, such as the Alliance. It is almost always a vice of
> the aristocrats.
That's true. But among space-farers, post-industrialists, and capitalists,
we have only one real-world example to look to, so history doesn't give us a
firm answer. Espenson proposed one. I evaluated it, and found it stupid.
"Honor killing" is typical, even today, but almost exclusively among the
poor, the backward, the non-technologicals, and so on. Wealthy Americans
don't play deadly, stupid, meaningless games, as a rule.
And Mal was specifically designed as a character who understood that
ritualistic mob stupidity was not exactly a good way to live.
Compare the motivations and actions in "Mrs. Reynolds," or in "Ariel," or in
"Out Of Gas," and you see abberant behaviour (i.e., criminality) that is
consistent with any future where resources are scarce.
Don Sample
"Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-6D2E6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> problem with the depiction of "witch burning" that was soon to come. But
> >> this was among the upper-classes in a post-industrial and space-faring
> >> society. Dueling? No. Very hard for me to buy, except as a
> >> storytelling
> >
> > the usual reason for banning duels
> > is that its wasteful to kill young men in duels
> > when you could put them in an army
> > and kill them at greater profit to society overall
> >
> > its not about whether its seen as archaic or immoral
>
> Not my point at all. Duels are gone nowadays because we are not idiots -
> not because they've been "banned."
>
> Sure, there's lots of stupid stuff in modern society, and dueling would
> probably look like rocket-science in the Muslim world.
>
> The problem with it in the FIREFLY world is that it's a space-faring
> society, and among the wealthy, that means the information-cat is out of the
> bag. Post-industrial arsitocrats aren't that stupid, at least it's beyond
> what I can believe.
Duelling has never been about how well educated, or how much information
the duellists have had. Duelling has always been prevalent among the
best educated members of a society. It happens when members of a
society start to place more emphasis on some arbitrary code of honour
than on actual substance.
Atlas Bugged
news:13orlgqsgnfmo.ubmy2nfq2yc9$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:50:43 GMT, Atlas Bugged wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> As a whole, I rate this episode the series' worst,
>
> No thats the next one, Safe.
"Safe" may not be top rank. But when Mal tells the villagers about Jaynes's
gun and how "he's their god," that was enough to raise it up. Plus Whedon's
brilliance in sucking us in, getting us to believe maybe folks who kidnap
aren't so bad after all, they just need a doctor, right? Then, boom, you
find out that evil is evil.
>
> [snip]
>
>> I don't think it's unrelated at all. Espenson is ill suited to sci-fi,
>> though she may be fine for fantasy. She penned a relatively poor BSG
>> just
>> recently, and she's the editor of the faux-philosophy FIREFLY book, which
>> demonstrated an amazingly poor understanding of the show in many
>> chapters.
>
> You can't necessarily blame Espensen for the duelling, the plots get
> broken
> down by the writers as a whole and then she goes away to write the
> dialogue
> and the more specific plot points. The duelling aspect would have been
> brought up in a brainstorming session with all the writers.
Yeah, that's certainly true about the brainstorming, but we don't really
know, do we?
But by this logic, we can't blame any writer for anything. So all we have
to go on is what's credited.
Short of an external source that tells us Espenson was *not* the source of
that aspect, I have to assume she gets both credit or blame, whatever it is.
And, of course, the other two strikes have me suspicious of her.
If I see anywhere that Whedon or Minear want to "fall on the sword" for
this, I'll certainly re-visit my views. They certainly get some of the
blame, since they let it slip by. But the difference is, they get
cost/benefit as a whole series. Espenson, we only know from this ep.
Mel
Like Klingons. Or Centauri.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-680238...@news.giganews.com...
> > Duelling has been a part of most societies, throughout human history,
> > especially those that have established an essentially parasitic
> > aristocratic class, such as the Alliance. It is almost always a vice of
> > the aristocrats.
>
> That's true. But among space-farers, post-industrialists, and capitalists,
> we have only one real-world example to look to, so history doesn't give us a
> firm answer. Espenson proposed one. I evaluated it, and found it stupid.
>
> "Honor killing" is typical, even today, but almost exclusively among the
> poor, the backward, the non-technologicals, and so on. Wealthy Americans
> don't play deadly, stupid, meaningless games, as a rule.
theres not alot of difference between that
and strapping a guy to gurney and filling him up with potassium chloride
-becuase he deserves it-
as for dueling
a barroom brawl may be less ritualistic but the idea is the same
its real easy to assume that -we- are so clever and sophisticated
than -those people-
but its really a combination of myopia and prejudice
we are those people
> And Mal was specifically designed as a character who understood that
> ritualistic mob stupidity was not exactly a good way to live.
perhaps after serenity valley but certainly not before it
unless you really dont think the military is ritualistic mob stupidity
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> news:13orlgqsgnfmo.ubmy2nfq2yc9$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> > On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:50:43 GMT, Atlas Bugged wrote:
>
> >> As a whole, I rate this episode the series' worst,
>
> > No thats the next one, Safe.
>
> "Safe" may not be top rank. But when Mal tells the villagers about Jaynes's
> gun and how "he's their god," that was enough to raise it up. Plus Whedon's
> brilliance in sucking us in, getting us to believe maybe folks who kidnap
> aren't so bad after all, they just need a doctor, right? Then, boom, you
> find out that evil is evil.
> >> I don't think it's unrelated at all. Espenson is ill suited to sci-fi,
> >> though she may be fine for fantasy. She penned a relatively poor BSG
> >> just
> >> recently, and she's the editor of the faux-philosophy FIREFLY book, which
> >> demonstrated an amazingly poor understanding of the show in many
> >> chapters.
>
> > You can't necessarily blame Espensen for the duelling, the plots get
> > broken
> > down by the writers as a whole and then she goes away to write the
> > dialogue
> > and the more specific plot points. The duelling aspect would have been
> > brought up in a brainstorming session with all the writers.
>
> Yeah, that's certainly true about the brainstorming, but we don't really
> know, do we?
>
> But by this logic, we can't blame any writer for anything. So all we have
> to go on is what's credited.
>
> Short of an external source that tells us Espenson was *not* the source of
> that aspect, I have to assume she gets both credit or blame, whatever it is.
> And, of course, the other two strikes have me suspicious of her.
I'm a little torn there. It's a known fact that Mutant Enemy's story
arcs were conceived by Joss and the other higher-ups, and that most
stories were "broken" (outline and act breaks) as a group before being
handed over to an individual writer. On the other hand, there are
definite trends and characteristics of certain regulars' writing that
come through once one watches enough. An imperfect solution I dabble
in is to praise or criticize "episodes credited to [writer]" rather
than the writer per se.
> If I see anywhere that Whedon or Minear want to "fall on the sword" for
> this, I'll certainly re-visit my views. They certainly get some of the
> blame, since they let it slip by. But the difference is, they get
> cost/benefit as a whole series. Espenson, we only know from this ep.
I don't know how familiar you are with Joss and Tim's work on those
vampire shows, but my sarcastic comment reflects a long-standing...
let's just say difference of opinions with Jane Espenson's writing
style. She was one of the most prolific writers on _Buffy_ from Seaon
Three onward (and did a little bit of work on _Angel_ too, but not
much), and for a long time she was my least favorite of the regular
staffers. [Interestingly, I eventually passed that dubious
distinction on to Drew Z. Greenberg, who also wrote "Safe."] Anyway,
Jane was credited with a few of episodes I really like, but also had,
in my mind, the habit of fumbling both plot logic and character logic
with alarming frequency. She's beloved by many BTVS fans for her ear
for dialogue. My impression is that conventional wisdom would put her
second only to Joss himself in that department. That keeps most of
her scripts verbally lively - a trait very much in evidence in
"Shindig."
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
> Writer: Jane Espensen
> Director: Vern Gillum
>
>
> who plays the role of the charming and self-deprecating man of high
> culture. Re-watching, there are hints from moment one in Atterton's
> performance that he's playing a part, and that there's an ugly person
> with a sense of entitlement trying to peer out, but it's not obvious
> until the situation arises. The dislike between him and Mal is like a
> living thing, and Harrow (a pretty good supporting character) is in on
> that game too. The dialogue, by which I mean the combination of the
> words themselves and the timing, crackles here and elsewhere in the
> episode. "Shindig" is a standout in that regard even among Whedon-
> produced shows.
Definetely. Even when the story isn't going so well, the dialogue keeps this
episode afloat. Best line is maybe whatever we imagine Kaylee saying when
Mal responds to being told she's not talking to him with "Got no need to
speak. Come on. Got a job for you." :)
> The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
> the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
> ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
> would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
> believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
> considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
> him. Doesn't seem to work.
Yeh. I guess Mal may know Persephone, but he is an interloper at that social
level. Those that live at that level have no reason to suppose that they
have been infiltrated by one of Mal's level, and perhaps no interest in
accomodating him if they did. The notion of him being held in the town
overnight so he won't escape is even odder though. The whole idea of dueling
is that it is a matter of honour. Holding a duelist so that he won't run
away ought to be offensive to that notion of honour. Either they would not
conceive of the possibilty, or if they did, they might be expected to think
someone who would run from a duel has no honour, and so there is no point in
dueling with him.
> Weirder still is the fact that he's so
> into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
> else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
> conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
> decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
> it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
> down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
> okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
> chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
That is even weirder. It is clearly more than generic chivalry on Mal's
part, he is himself insulted by the insult to her. Even so, facing probable
death because of it hardly seems his style.
> Where does Kaylee fit into that theme? She gets a fair chunk of
> screen-time in what could almost be considered a B-arc. It's also
> about identity and belonging, as we see when Mal cluelessly offends
Call no man completely clueless when he's standing right next to Jayne.
> her when questioning what she'd do in a layer-cake dress, and
> elsewhere during the episode. She's snubbed by the girls her age, but
> eventually ends up a hit among the local men through her knowledge of
> non-useless things. And takes a few souvenirs of different kinds
> home. I'm struggling to see how that really informs or is influenced
> by the main plot, though - what's the message? I'm inclined to just
> treat these sequences as a chance to get to know Kaylee better and see
> her in different situations, without a deeper meaning. Staite's
> "wounded" facial expression is among the best in the business. One
> thing that bothered me upon re-watching her encounter with the
> Cordettes at the party is that first the one chick hits her with the
> "standards" line that seems like it should instantly crush her
> feelings of giddiness, and then the other useless girl acts friendly
> and makes Kaylee feel bad while, in her own mind, trying to be
> helpful.
I don't think any of those girls are trying to be helpful. The girl who
warns Kaylee to "see to her girl" (the Cordy of the Cordettes) is certainly
perfectly well aware that the dress is store-bought.
> Sometimes memory makes something funnier than it is. I had this
> recollection of Wash having no reaction at all to Jayne suggesting
> that Zoe get nekkid, kinda refusing to rise to the obvious bait, and
> then getting extemely panicked when Jayne suggested that he himself do
> the same thing. I like that a little better than the actual scene,
> which is similar. Anyway, they miss out on a chance at a diversion
> when River enters, and I can't really blame them, because it's a scene
> that pops out of the screen.
Yep, some diversions are just too diverting.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pleasant overall.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Good for me also. Pretty likeable, without being anything special. It's my
8th favourite FF episode. My rating (4.30) is the same as the 66th best BtVS
(School Hard) and the 27th best AtS (RM W/A VU).
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> > Weirder still is the fact that he's so
> > into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
> > else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
> > conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
> > decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
> > it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
> > down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
> > okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
> > chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
>
> That is even weirder. It is clearly more than generic chivalry on Mal's
> part, he is himself insulted by the insult to her. Even so, facing probable
> death because of it hardly seems his style.
That's a worthwhile distinction - apparently only he's allowed to
insult Inara (or, by him, it's her profession that he's insulting),
but he'll die rather than let anyone else do it. Inara actually asks
how getting himself killed helps her, but the episode brushes away the
question. Can't see it as his style either.
One
> > thing that bothered me upon re-watching her encounter with the
> > Cordettes at the party is that first the one chick hits her with the
> > "standards" line that seems like it should instantly crush her
> > feelings of giddiness, and then the other useless girl acts friendly
> > and makes Kaylee feel bad while, in her own mind, trying to be
> > helpful.
>
> I don't think any of those girls are trying to be helpful. The girl who
> warns Kaylee to "see to her girl" (the Cordy of the Cordettes) is certainly
> perfectly well aware that the dress is store-bought.
Try explaining that to the writer of the episode, who suggests
otherwise in the commentary.
-AOQ
Daily Bob
> Not convincing;
> > chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
>
> That is even weirder. It is clearly more than generic chivalry on Mal's
> part, he is himself insulted by the insult to her. Even so, facing probable
> death because of it hardly seems his style.
I'm pretty sure chivalry had nothing to do with it. It was pretty much
the "grownup" version of Mal pulling Inaras pigtails. He aint agonna
let anyone ELSE pull them pigtails. It is a matter of intimite
emotional immaturity.
--
just Bob
___________
Speech is conveniently located midway between thought and action, where it
often substitutes for both.
-- John Andrew Holmes
Atlas Bugged
> In article <rCeSh.247821$Wg6....@fe07.news.easynews.com>,
> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Honor killing" is typical, even today, but almost exclusively among the
>> poor, the backward, the non-technologicals, and so on. Wealthy Americans
>> don't play deadly, stupid, meaningless games, as a rule.
>
> theres not alot of difference between that
> and strapping a guy to gurney and filling him up with potassium chloride
> -becuase he deserves it-
Uh-oh. My days of taking you seriously are coming to a middle....
> as for dueling
> a barroom brawl may be less ritualistic but the idea is the same
>
> its real easy to assume that -we- are so clever and sophisticated
> than -those people-
> but its really a combination of myopia and prejudice
> we are those people
Please! You may speak for yourself, but lose the "we!"
I'm getting the feeling you don't like me judging.
Are you judging my judging, by the way? Because I can be veeeeeeery
judgmental, you know......
>
>> And Mal was specifically designed as a character who understood that
>> ritualistic mob stupidity was not exactly a good way to live.
>
> perhaps after serenity valley but certainly not before it
> unless you really dont think the military is ritualistic mob stupidity
Of course I don't. Some militaries are rational responses to mob stupidity,
others *are* mob stupidity.
To tell which are which, I use judgment.
Atlas Bugged, Monday, April 09, 2007
Apteryx
Actually she only says that she likes how the girl comes across like she's
trying to help, because that's the worst kind of mean. Which she does, and
it is. There is no suggestion that the girl (Brannon) isn't perfectly well
aware that reason why Kylee's dress looks like she bought it in a store is
that she did.
--
Apteryx
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>FIREFLY
>Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
>(or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
>Writer: Jane Espensen
>Director: Vern Gillum
>
>Kinda lackluster opening this week, starting with still another bar-
>fight. The thematic reason for this is blunt and equally uninspiring
>- to put Inara side-by-side with this world she's moving in and show
>how much she doesn't fit in. The rest of the episode is about Mal not
>being a part of her world. This is not the richest or most exciting
>of subtexts, although as discussed below, there at least ends up being
>a little more to it than that. The holographic pool table is one of
>the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
>hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
>machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
>the 'verse. That's in contrast to the floating chandelier later, a
>useless device that seems perfectly believable.
The floating chandelier is ostentatious and meant to be, even in context of
the story. That's why it's perfectly believable.
>The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
>the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
>ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
>would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
>believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
>considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
>him. Doesn't seem to work. Weirder still is the fact that he's so
>into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
>else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
>conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
>decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
>it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
>down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
>okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
>chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
>I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
>"and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
>rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
>that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
>acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
>reason she's not a normal Companion?
Something that nobody has mentioned yet, the folks we see at the ball are
not 'high society', they are Persephone's richer folks trying to be 'high
society'. In the Firefly verse, Persephone corresponds (more or less) to
St. Louis (or possibly San Francisco). It's an outer planet that wants to
think of itself as an inner planet, but it isn't really (the only inner
planet we actually see in the series is Ariel).
So, the social behaviors we see are not necessarily the social behaviors
that the 'real' inner planet aristocracy would have, just what the Wings of
this verse imagine they are. Inara understands the behaviors and codes of
conduct because she's a Companion, not because they are hers (even by this
point in the series, we know that when she isn't actively playing a role,
she's some sort of neo-Buddhist priest).
I'd also add that having Simon along likely wouldn't have helped, because
the upper crust of Persephone would seem as declasse to the Tams and their
peers as Mal does to the upper crust of Persephone. Also, I tend not to
think that the Tams are true inner planet upper crust, based on the
flashbacks we later get about Simon and River, rather they are Nouveau
Riche trying to out-upper crust the upper crust, I'd argue that a clearly
caucasian family having the last name 'Tam' can be seen as a sign of this
(I'm one of the ones that argue that the reason we don't see any Chinese
upper crust is that they tend to be part of the true Core Planet upper
crust, and simply aren't in the orbit in which our heroes move).
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> (the only inner planet we actually see in the series is Ariel).
What about Bellerophon, in "Trash"?
William George Ferguson
>In article <n2qk13hut0rmkj7o1...@4ax.com>,
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> (the only inner planet we actually see in the series is Ariel).
>
>What about Bellerophon, in "Trash"?
I tend to think it must have been developed later, and as a 'playground for
the rich' type world, because of the lack of terraforming on the surface.
Everyone lives in floating artificial habitats in the air. I tend to think
the core planets are the most completely terraformed.
Arnold Kim
beverage?
(I'm so sorry, I just saw "Dead Man's Party" from S3 again this
afternoon...)
Arnold Kim
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Did this episode feature any dip and perhaps a large amount of malt
> beverage?
it featured a dip named atherton wing
not sure about a large amount of malt beverage
Rowan Hawthorn
> Did this episode feature any dip and perhaps a large amount of malt
> beverage?
The latter, I'm reasonably sure of; couldn't swear to the former.
>
> (I'm so sorry
Yeah, suuuure you are... :-)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
One Bit Shy
news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
> Can you actually state - briefly - a unified overall theme for this
> episode? One that's not contradicted somewhere along the way?
The initial blunt statement is that it's about slavery - slavery being
introduced as one of the conditions of their universe in the teaser and then
brought up indirectly by Atherton when he speaks of money having exchanged
hands for Inara, making her his for that night. The friendly gentleman
(southern landowner style) speaks of it taking 30 slaves to make the
obnoxious girl's dress.
Ultimately, that theme is expressed more clearly by Mal when he's practicing
for the duel.
Mal: You think following the rules will buy you a nice life,even if the
rules make you a slave.
The sentence is directed to Inara, but can be applied more broadly -
probably representing a critical part of Mal's philosophy.
With that in mind, the theme of the episode can be more broadly seen as
being about oppressive class distinctions. That shows up in various ways
throughout the episode. The whole construct of the party pretty clearly
points that direction - especially with Kaylee's awkward insertion into it.
It's an undercurrent a number of other places as well, such as Inara's
out-of-place observing of the rough life in the bar in the teaser and Badger
enlisting Mal because social position doesn't allow him to deal with Harrow
directly.
One of the more interesting representations of it is River's surprising
dressing down of Badger. Her words are essentially throwing back into
Badger's face his own insecurities about his social status in this world.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
> Writer: Jane Espensen
> Director: Vern Gillum
Haven't missed much I see. I'm here for a couple of days and then I'll be
gone again...
> Kinda lackluster opening this week, starting with still another bar-
> fight. The thematic reason for this is blunt and equally uninspiring
> - to put Inara side-by-side with this world she's moving in and show
> how much she doesn't fit in. The rest of the episode is about Mal not
> being a part of her world. This is not the richest or most exciting
> of subtexts, although as discussed below, there at least ends up being
> a little more to it than that.
Personally I think the whole episode is about class distinctions, with
everybody trapped in their little slice of it, ruled by petty concerns. Mal
and Inara are the leading representations of the clash of classes, but by no
means alone. Kaylee, Badger and all the silly wanna-be fops at the party
play major parts too. River provides one of the major expressions of it
when she reflects Badger's inner feelings back at him.
Of course this is also used to demonstrate the odd connection between Inara
and Mal - and the tension between them. I'd like to say that it advances
their connection, but I stumble finding it beyond a nice moment of cow
watching. I think they move ahead from here in largely the same place. But
maybe we the audience understand it slightly better.
Aside from enjoying Inara's pleasure at slumming it in the intro (she is
indeed quite lovely this episode), I really noticed Jayne's greed when he
slides over the slave trading revelation to get to the money involved. We
get another taste of his greed when he steels from the other's winnings
during their gambling. One might think this could prove to be a problem
eventually.
In spite of the thematic setup (Inara out of place - slavery reference),
you're right that it's a lackluster opening on the whole. The plot of the
whole episode seems to bumble along to me, rarely achieving what it ought
to.
> The holographic pool table is one of
> the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
> hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
> machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
> the 'verse.
I think the implication has to be that it's *not* an expensive machine.
Part of the weird mix of high-tech and crude that makes up their world. We
don't know why that kind of tech is cheap, but in this imagined future it's
expected that items we wouldn't expect to be readily available actually
are - and the reverse. The pool table is, I think, on par with the false
window at the beginning of The Train Job.
And would be attractive to the bar owners for the same reason. Less
breakage. If fights are common, then it's probably for the better not to
have real pool balls to add to the mayhem.
> That's in contrast to the floating chandelier later, a
> useless device that seems perfectly believable.
It's purpose being purely to show off.
> This glimpse into the life of a Companion leads us to Atherton Wing,
Don't like the performance. I understand the idea fine, but for whatever
reason, he comes across as one of the most stale over used type of character
we ever get inflicted with on the series. Firefly usually does better.
> The dislike between him and Mal is like a
> living thing,
Are you channeling Enyos from BtVS? "Vengeance is a living thing. It passes
through generations. It commands. It kills."
-er- sorry. I just didn't get the crackle you seemed to have. I did,
however, like Mal's dance with Inara.
> It should be mentioned that these sequences take
> place at the ball, where people with more of a conscious reaction to
> visual things than me will be entirely justified in gushing over the
> look of both the set and filmed product. Like many others, I always
> get in the mood for fresh fruit after seeing that table. Oh, and love
> the doorknob/key thing. I think the format of the swordfight should
> have been based more on fencing, but I'm a little biased in that
> regard...
Hmmm. I liked the visuals last episode way more. Different tastes I
suppose. I did like the dresses - especially Kaylee's of course.
On the down side was the ridiculous attempt at fog during the duel.
> The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
> the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
> ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
> would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
> believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
> considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
> him. Doesn't seem to work.
I don't like the mechanics of it, and Mal probably should have been more
aware of the practice, if not the particulars. However, I don't mind it
being part of the culture at work. It's been interesting reading the
commentary by others about this. When I first saw this I wondered at how
the culture could get away with such easy dueling in a trade center
environment when people of wildly varying backgrounds and understanding
would constantly be streaming through and interacting.
But, then, that's not a bad description of emerging London in the late 17th
century where the upper class walked around wearing swords and were
remarkably ready to bring violence onto their own or anybody else they
didn't cotton to. One interesting bit to me was the revelation that
Atherton has taken blade to a dozen men before, but Mal is the first to
actually give reason. In that earlier era of swordplay, some men were
supposedly known for seeking excuse to slay with their swords, though they
would undoubtedly deny it.
In any case, the culture being depicted here is one on the edge of society
and frontier, where the so called upper class is less crude than those below
it only due to their dress, affected manner and ready cash. They are not
truly "cultured" in any meaningful way. They are even quite ignorant of
much of true high society, as Atherton shows by not comprehending Inara's
true status and power over him at the end.
A very different manifestation of this can be seen in the elder gentleman's
put down of the mean girl.
Murphy: Why Banning Miller. What a vision you are in your fine dress. It
must have taken a dozen slaves a dozen days to get you into that getup.
'Course your daddy tells me it takes the space of a schoolboy's wink to get
you out of it again.
A cutting remark for sure, but also quite crude. A hell of a thing to say
in open company. Said with the wrong person there and it could generate its
own challenge to a duel.
In any case, the general depiction of a pervasive brutality from top to
bottom of this society is one thing that works pretty well for me this
episode.
> Weirder still is the fact that he's so
> into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
> else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
> conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
> decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
> it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
> down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
> okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
> chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
I don't buy it either. Hitting Atherton and getting trapped by the duel is
OK. But insisting on staying for the fight? Where's the hard calculating
Mal now? Doesn't make sense.
> I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
> "and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
> rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
> that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
> acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
> reason she's not a normal Companion?
Mal probably thinks something like that. It's never clear to me exactly
what it is Inara is thinking. That may tease around the edges of it, but I
think that there's much about Inara's life that she's proud of too. And I
think we're supposed to believe it's for good reason.
I don't know what the movie shows, but in the series Inara remains a bit
elusive to me.
> That in turn brings us to the twist in the meaning of the story, which
> is the way Inara doesn't necessarily fit into "her" world. She
> actually belongs on the frontier more than among her peers. We don't
> know all that much about the Companion profession, but drifting around
> the outer planets might be atypical behavior; a bit of a rebel?
> Matching that, although it's maybe addressed too briefly given that it
> didn't register until I heard the commentary, is that Mal doesn't fit
> in nicely with fellow criminals like Badger. Hence the need for a
> third option: this particular ship with all its contradictions (a
> criminal enterprise whose prominent members include a man of sorta-
> honor and a skilled professional). As in all Joss Whedon shows,
> _Firefly_ turns out to be about a very select "created family" of
> people who don't belong anywhere else.
That much I follow. I still don't quite get Inara.
> Where does Kaylee fit into that theme? She gets a fair chunk of
> screen-time in what could almost be considered a B-arc. It's also
> about identity and belonging, as we see when Mal cluelessly offends
> her when questioning what she'd do in a layer-cake dress, and
> elsewhere during the episode. She's snubbed by the girls her age, but
> eventually ends up a hit among the local men through her knowledge of
> non-useless things. And takes a few souvenirs of different kinds
> home. I'm struggling to see how that really informs or is influenced
> by the main plot, though - what's the message?
Kaylee's pure. She's the one person absent affectation. She dresses up for
the joy of dressing up. She's the only one who goes to the ball for the
sake of the ball. She demonstrates the falseness of the class distinction.
> Anyway, they miss out on a chance at a diversion
> when River enters, and I can't really blame them, because it's a scene
> that pops out of the screen. Suddenly seeing the crazy chick having
> poise (not to mention talking in complete sentences) and affecting
> Badger's own accent and mannerisms at him is mesmerizing. How quickly
> she reads him at a glance also reinforces the notion suggested in the
> last couple episodes that she's got still undefined mojo of some sort
> at work - not sure how quickly I picked up on that on first viewing.
That's a pretty stunning display, isn't it? Of course it still mostly
intrigues since it's hard as hell to work out where that came from. One
hopes that Simon at least recognizes it as a clue to something about her.
> The fact that our supporting cast never even gets started on their
> rescue attempt grates slightly; not a crippling problem for the
> episode, but a minor annoyance. At least they were actively
> planning. But they did know roughly how much time they had to work
> with to save their captain, and they let him down. It feels a little
> like going for the cheap joke at the expense of the characters'
> integrity.
I don't think it messes with character integrity so much as it's just clunky
plotting. The idea didn't work as well as they thought it would.
> An isolated fact that clearly has absolutely no connection
> whatsoever to the previous sentence : "Shindig" was written by _Buffy_
> veteran Jane Espenson, whose contributions for that show have featured
> supporting cast members failing to notice friends replaced by robots,
> and getting distracted by jell-o whilst trying to stop murders.
I like Jane OK, but you're right that she wouldn't let something as silly as
story continuity get in the way of a punchline.
> Oh, yeah, there's the sword-fight itself. It's tainted some by the
> strange plotting mentioned above; the story doesn't quite hold
> together for me. Parts seem a bit clunky on a micro scale too, and
> I'll use an exchange during the climax as an example of what I'm
> talking about. Harrow says, in response to Mal drawing first blood
> and starting to enjoy himself, "he thinks he's doing well, doesn't
> he?" Okay, that's a good moment and it makes its point right there.
> Inara's followup "he's being toyed with" is entirely unnecessary. I
> used to rank "Shindig" as among my favorites of the early episodes,
> and it's fallen some in my estimation because of stuff like that. But
> amidst all the concerns about the end, it's still exciting, and it
> makes one wince every time Ath takes another little swipe.
I'm more negative than you about the sword fight. I didn't wince at any of
the swipes or find it exciting at all. Everything seemed off to me. The
only part I liked was Mal's line about being a great man -er- a good
man -er- just all right.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pleasant overall.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Just decent for me. I thought the story bumbled along and never got me
enthused. The thematic parts were OK. And some individual elements were
wonderful. (River's lines. Captain tightpants. Kaylee's dress. A few
other jokes and visuals here and there.) But this is a relatively dead part
of the series for me when I was wondering why people were making such a big
deal about it.
OBS
Arnold Kim
"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:K5-dnZWtYPs...@giganews.com...
> Arnold Kim wrote:
>> Did this episode feature any dip and perhaps a large amount of malt
>> beverage?
>
> The latter, I'm reasonably sure of; couldn't swear to the former.
>
>>
>> (I'm so sorry
>
> Yeah, suuuure you are... :-)
Eh, you're right- I'm not.;)
Arnold Kim
wonders if future episodes would have included "Gathering" and "Hootennany"
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
>> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
>> Writer: Jane Espensen
>> Director: Vern Gillum
>
> indeed quite lovely this episode), I really noticed Jayne's greed when he
> slides over the slave trading revelation to get to the money involved. We
> get another taste of his greed when he steels from the other's winnings
> during their gambling. One might think this could prove to be a problem
> eventually.
Y'think?
>
>> The holographic pool table is one of
>> the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
>> hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
>> machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
>> the 'verse.
>
> I think the implication has to be that it's *not* an expensive machine.
> Part of the weird mix of high-tech and crude that makes up their world. We
> don't know why that kind of tech is cheap, but in this imagined future it's
> expected that items we wouldn't expect to be readily available actually
> are - and the reverse. The pool table is, I think, on par with the false
> window at the beginning of The Train Job.
>
> And would be attractive to the bar owners for the same reason. Less
> breakage. If fights are common, then it's probably for the better not to
> have real pool balls to add to the mayhem.
Good point. I saw a guy lose a handful of teeth to a cue ball one night
in a club where I was playing (on the other hand, I've seen *more*
people damaged by cues, so I'm not sure how much would actually be
gained by removing the balls from the mix.)
C.O.Jones
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >> FIREFLY
> >> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
> >> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
> >> Writer: Jane Espensen
> >> Director: Vern Gillum
> >
> >
> > I think the implication has to be that it's *not* an expensive machine.
> > Part of the weird mix of high-tech and crude that makes up their world. We
> > don't know why that kind of tech is cheap, but in this imagined future it's
> > expected that items we wouldn't expect to be readily available actually
> > are - and the reverse. The pool table is, I think, on par with the false
> > window at the beginning of The Train Job.
> >
> > And would be attractive to the bar owners for the same reason. Less
> > breakage. If fights are common, then it's probably for the better not to
> > have real pool balls to add to the mayhem.
>
> Good point. I saw a guy lose a handful of teeth to a cue ball one night
> in a club where I was playing (on the other hand, I've seen *more*
> people damaged by cues, so I'm not sure how much would actually be
> gained by removing the balls from the mix.)
If the balls were holograms, then the sticks could be lightweight
plastic, like Whiffle bats.
--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
Rowan Hawthorn
Now *that* would be funny as hell, watching a couple of soused rednecks
flailing away at each other with something like that.
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>> FIREFLY
>>> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
>>> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
>>> Writer: Jane Espensen
>>> Director: Vern Gillum
>>
>> Aside from enjoying Inara's pleasure at slumming it in the intro (she is
>> indeed quite lovely this episode), I really noticed Jayne's greed when he
>> slides over the slave trading revelation to get to the money involved.
>> We get another taste of his greed when he steels from the other's
>> winnings during their gambling. One might think this could prove to be a
>> problem eventually.
>
> Y'think?
Well, yeah. All those passes on chores he stole... When Book finds out he
still has to do the dishes I could imagine him bringing down some righteous
fury. That kind of fury hell hath.
>>> The holographic pool table is one of
>>> the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
>>> hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
>>> machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
>>> the 'verse.
>>
>> I think the implication has to be that it's *not* an expensive machine.
>> Part of the weird mix of high-tech and crude that makes up their world.
>> We don't know why that kind of tech is cheap, but in this imagined future
>> it's expected that items we wouldn't expect to be readily available
>> actually are - and the reverse. The pool table is, I think, on par with
>> the false window at the beginning of The Train Job.
>>
>> And would be attractive to the bar owners for the same reason. Less
>> breakage. If fights are common, then it's probably for the better not to
>> have real pool balls to add to the mayhem.
>
> Good point. I saw a guy lose a handful of teeth to a cue ball one night
> in a club where I was playing (on the other hand, I've seen *more* people
> damaged by cues, so I'm not sure how much would actually be gained by
> removing the balls from the mix.)
True, but most of the cue damage is done to the fighters. Start throwing
balls around and you might get the bartender or the whiskey bottles.
Nothing sadder than watching a pool of hooch seep into the floor boards.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
H'm. Good point. Of course, some of those clubs stock stuff that could
only be *improved* by mopping it up from the floor boards...
C.O.Jones
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Funny enough to enjoy while sipping on a pink drink!
Donny Macro
"Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:q7ESh.99$OF1...@newsfe12.lga...
Gathering I can see... Perhaps Innara or Simon's world... never saw any Brie
on the show though.
and Jayne's homeworld is probably entirely 'chock full of hoot, just a
little bit of nanny.'
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Donny Macro" <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
jaynes world is probably like jaynestown
a good place to come from and never go back to
- hanging our shirts in the dirty breeze
Michael Ikeda
news:131lre7...@news.supernews.com:
> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
>
>> Can you actually state - briefly - a unified overall theme for
>> this episode? One that's not contradicted somewhere along the
>> way?
>
> The initial blunt statement is that it's about slavery - slavery
> being introduced as one of the conditions of their universe in
> the teaser and then brought up indirectly by Atherton when he
> speaks of money having exchanged hands for Inara, making her his
> for that night. The friendly gentleman (southern landowner
> style) speaks of it taking 30 slaves to make the obnoxious
> girl's dress.
>
The episode page at Firefly wiki includes this description:
"Shindig: the Gone With the Wind of Firefly episodes; Persephone has
that sort of look and feel about it."
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
One Bit Shy
news:MvmdnbltRqp8loHb...@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:131lre7...@news.supernews.com:
>
>> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
>>
>>> Can you actually state - briefly - a unified overall theme for
>>> this episode? One that's not contradicted somewhere along the
>>> way?
>>
>> The initial blunt statement is that it's about slavery - slavery
>> being introduced as one of the conditions of their universe in
>> the teaser and then brought up indirectly by Atherton when he
>> speaks of money having exchanged hands for Inara, making her his
>> for that night. The friendly gentleman (southern landowner
>> style) speaks of it taking 30 slaves to make the obnoxious
>> girl's dress.
>>
>
> The episode page at Firefly wiki includes this description:
>
> "Shindig: the Gone With the Wind of Firefly episodes; Persephone has
> that sort of look and feel about it."
It's certainly old south. I'm not so sure about Gone With the Wind
specifically. But, yeah, that feel also emphasizes the slavery subtext.
OBS
Xenobuzz
it seems that your reveiws reflect more than a little bitterness over
there being only one season of the show. That circumstance seems to
me to have led to over-analyzation of what we've all watched many
times and thoroughly enjoyed. Sure, some episodes are better than
others, but we're talking about "Firefly!" Even the bad episodes are
STILL better than the slop strobing before us now.
The show was great, but the show is gone. Let's appreciate it for
what it was, and not resort to poring over the bones with an electron
microscope like those nerds in that Simpsons episode nit-picking about
the "magical rib with two distinct musical tones."
Dave S.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> gone again...
So, how do you feel about the War Of Northern Aggression? (This joke
is not a serious solicitation for a response. From anyone.)
> Of course this is also used to demonstrate the odd connection between Inara
> and Mal - and the tension between them. I'd like to say that it advances
> their connection, but I stumble finding it beyond a nice moment of cow
> watching. I think they move ahead from here in largely the same place. But
> maybe we the audience understand it slightly better.
Early episodes of a sure to be long-running series are often that way.
> > The holographic pool table is one of
> > the few times in FF in which a technology just seems stupid (what the
> > hell's the point of contact-free pool, especially with an expensive
> > machine that always breaks?) and one can't imagine it fitting in to
> > the 'verse.
>
> I think the implication has to be that it's *not* an expensive machine.
> Part of the weird mix of high-tech and crude that makes up their world. We
> don't know why that kind of tech is cheap, but in this imagined future it's
> expected that items we wouldn't expect to be readily available actually
> are - and the reverse. The pool table is, I think, on par with the false
> window at the beginning of The Train Job.
Why that kinid of tech is cheap is so the writers can do wacky
illogical stuff like holographic pool balls.
> And would be attractive to the bar owners for the same reason. Less
> breakage. If fights are common, then it's probably for the better not to
> have real pool balls to add to the mayhem.
None of the posts below this have done much to convince me that bar
owners would be worried about the balls in a room full of pool cues
and glass bottles.
> In any case, the culture being depicted here is one on the edge of society
> and frontier, where the so called upper class is less crude than those below
> it only due to their dress, affected manner and ready cash. They are not
> truly "cultured" in any meaningful way. They are even quite ignorant of
> much of true high society, as Atherton shows by not comprehending Inara's
> true status and power over him at the end.
Okay, someone's finally helped me make sense of how the kind of guy
who'd be hiring a Companion has no idea about even the fundamentals of
the business.
> In any case, the general depiction of a pervasive brutality from top to
> bottom of this society is one thing that works pretty well for me this
> episode.
And if you buy into WGF's idea, it's possible that the Persephonians
themselves are made well aware that they're not from a core planet on
the occasions when they have to deal with their betters. Class issues
beget class issues or something.
> > I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
> > "and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
> > rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
> > that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
> > acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
> > reason she's not a normal Companion?
>
> Mal probably thinks something like that. It's never clear to me exactly
> what it is Inara is thinking. That may tease around the edges of it, but I
> think that there's much about Inara's life that she's proud of too. And I
> think we're supposed to believe it's for good reason.
>
> I don't know what the movie shows, but in the series Inara remains a bit
> elusive to me.
I can see that. I think she's supposed to be elusive, given that it's
still early in what's sure to be a long-running epic series. It's
intentional on her part; she's always keeping us a little bit of a
distance, almost never letting us ever quite see her without a persona
in place. About all I can say for sure is that she's not as icy-calm
all the time as she'd like us to think. (No, the BDM doesn't do much
to change that.)
> > That in turn brings us to the twist in the meaning of the story, which
> > is the way Inara doesn't necessarily fit into "her" world. She
> > actually belongs on the frontier more than among her peers. We don't
> > know all that much about the Companion profession, but drifting around
> > the outer planets might be atypical behavior; a bit of a rebel?
> > Matching that, although it's maybe addressed too briefly given that it
> > didn't register until I heard the commentary, is that Mal doesn't fit
> > in nicely with fellow criminals like Badger. Hence the need for a
> > third option: this particular ship with all its contradictions (a
> > criminal enterprise whose prominent members include a man of sorta-
> > honor and a skilled professional). As in all Joss Whedon shows,
> > _Firefly_ turns out to be about a very select "created family" of
> > people who don't belong anywhere else.
>
> That much I follow. I still don't quite get Inara.
> But this is a relatively dead part
> of the series for me when I was wondering why people were making such a big
> deal about it.
Heh, me too, only "Shindig" was always one of the relative highlights
of my dead part (episodes 3-6).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Since I know I don't come off as gushing in text, I think it's time
for one of those periodic reminders that when I rank an episode Good
or Excellent (as has occurred in 75% of these FF reviews so far), it
means that *I enjoyed it*.
-AOQ
Atlas Bugged
news:131lre7...@news.supernews.com...
> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
>
>> Can you actually state - briefly - a unified overall theme for this
>> episode? One that's not contradicted somewhere along the way?
>
> The initial blunt statement is that it's about slavery - slavery being
> introduced as one of the conditions of their universe in the teaser and
> then brought up indirectly by Atherton when he speaks of money having
> exchanged hands for Inara, making her his for that night.
That's not slavery.
Having this wrong is non-trivial, because by failing to make that
distinction, you do a disservice - a treason, in fact - to those actually
enslaved.
Inara is "his" for the night, but subject to a laundry list of conditions,
mostly of Inara's (or general Companion Law's) choosing. They amount to
"not his" for the night. *Not* slavery, and even as analogy, offensive.
>The friendly gentleman
> (southern landowner style) speaks of it taking 30 slaves to make the
> obnoxious girl's dress.
>
> Ultimately, that theme is expressed more clearly by Mal when he's
> practicing for the duel.
>
> Mal: You think following the rules will buy you a nice life,even if the
> rules make you a slave.
>
> The sentence is directed to Inara, but can be applied more broadly -
> probably representing a critical part of Mal's philosophy.
That's a good observation, but literal slavery is not what Mal is talking
about.
>
> With that in mind, the theme of the episode can be more broadly seen as
> being about oppressive class distinctions. That shows up in various ways
> throughout the episode. The whole construct of the party pretty clearly
> points that direction - especially with Kaylee's awkward insertion into
> it. It's an undercurrent a number of other places as well, such as Inara's
> out-of-place observing of the rough life in the bar in the teaser and
> Badger enlisting Mal because social position doesn't allow him to deal
> with Harrow directly.
>
> One of the more interesting representations of it is River's surprising
> dressing down of Badger. Her words are essentially throwing back into
> Badger's face his own insecurities about his social status in this world.
I am tempted to agree with that analysis as far as it goes. I still
disagree, however, that any specific comment is being made on "class
distinctions."
The episode is both contrived and unfocused, for my money. The show is
character-driven, which is the good part I like. But no actual theme.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:18 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Haven't missed much I see. I'm here for a couple of days and then I'll be
> > gone again...
>
> So, how do you feel about the War Of Northern Aggression? (This joke
> is not a serious solicitation for a response. From anyone.)
if youre an alien
why do yo sound like youre from the north
Atlas Bugged
news:1176256089.6...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>I hope you review an episode soon that you really like. So far, IMHO,
> it seems that your reveiws reflect more than a little bitterness over
> there being only one season of the show. That circumstance seems to
> me to have led to over-analyzation of what we've all watched many
> times and thoroughly enjoyed. Sure, some episodes are better than
> others, but we're talking about "Firefly!" Even the bad episodes are
> STILL better than the slop strobing before us now.
Couldn't agree more, but I don't see him being overly negative or picky. He
has mostly legit complaints, and loved the Pilot.
>
> The show was great, but the show is gone. Let's appreciate it for
> what it was, and not resort to poring over the bones with an electron
> microscope like those nerds in that Simpsons episode nit-picking about
> the "magical rib with two distinct musical tones."
FIREFLY could be discussed to eternity even though it had a short life.
After all, it set the standard for video sci-fi. That's for starters.
Then, it was filled chock-full of substantive themes. Then there's the
aspect where Whedon manages brilliant timing, dialogue, characterizations.
Entire college courses could be devoted to any of them.
Atlas Bugged, Tuesday, April 10, 2007
One Bit Shy
> On Apr 9, 10:18 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1176058520.5...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Haven't missed much I see. I'm here for a couple of days and then I'll
>> be
>> gone again...
>
> So, how do you feel about the War Of Northern Aggression? (This joke
> is not a serious solicitation for a response. From anyone.)
It's 100% about the slavery. Specifically James and Sarah Johnson (not
their African names), two slaves who surreptitiously slipped some sour milk
into John C. Calhoun's tea, giving him a case of indigestion that he never
got over, and a consequent foul disposition that spread throughout
Washington and eventually the nation. Even his death in 1850 couldn't stop
the inevitable march to war that the sour milk triggered.
It was an American tragedy. Though James and Sarah got a chuckle out of it
and reportedly had wild sex that night.
Arguably a worse tragedy than the misplaced decimal point that casued the
1929 stock market crash, but that's another story.
>> In any case, the general depiction of a pervasive brutality from top to
>> bottom of this society is one thing that works pretty well for me this
>> episode.
>
> And if you buy into WGF's idea, it's possible that the Persephonians
> themselves are made well aware that they're not from a core planet on
> the occasions when they have to deal with their betters. Class issues
> beget class issues or something.
I'm not quite there with his Tam family speculation, but the broader notion
of social strata I'm pretty much in tune with. However, I suspect
Persephone has fairly unique qualities that at least don't look much like
how it works at the core. I think it's a cultural backwater of sorts.
>> > I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
>> > "and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
>> > rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
>> > that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
>> > acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
>> > reason she's not a normal Companion?
>>
>> Mal probably thinks something like that. It's never clear to me exactly
>> what it is Inara is thinking. That may tease around the edges of it, but
>> I
>> think that there's much about Inara's life that she's proud of too. And
>> I
>> think we're supposed to believe it's for good reason.
>>
>> I don't know what the movie shows, but in the series Inara remains a bit
>> elusive to me.
>
> I can see that. I think she's supposed to be elusive, given that it's
> still early in what's sure to be a long-running epic series. It's
> intentional on her part; she's always keeping us a little bit of a
> distance, almost never letting us ever quite see her without a persona
> in place. About all I can say for sure is that she's not as icy-calm
> all the time as she'd like us to think. (No, the BDM doesn't do much
> to change that.)
She has vulnerabilities. Though again, it's hard to quite grasp them. They
tantalize. So close to the surface. Inara is interesting and I want to
understand her. I just can't quite get there. I expect you're right about
it just being a young series prematurely ended. (I wouldn't have wanted
that elusiveness to continue forever.) But it's all I got.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> their African names), two slaves who surreptitiously slipped some sour milk
okay okay enough
i agree i have been much too harsh about this issue
its important to see the lighter side of slavery and its consequences
i found this page which could bring a few chuckles to all present
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/lynching.htm
arent those a picture a hoot
Xenobuzz
> for one of those periodic reminders that when I rank an episode Good
> or Excellent (as has occurred in 75% of these FF reviews so far), it
> means that *I enjoyed it*.
>
> -AOQ
Right on! Very glad to hear it!
Looking forward to some gushing on the "Excellent" ones! :-)
Dave S.
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-63DD2...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
You are an enigma, mariposas. You have the sensibility to reference the
airtight garage but miss how my humor is directed. I'm not making light of
slavery. That story is far too absurd to even have meaning in that context.
Do you imagine that you can deduce from it my true feelings on the subject?
I am, however, making light of the argument as it appeared here and has so
often in so many places. Besides, I believe my theory is at least as
persuasive as anybody else's.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> airtight garage but miss how my humor is directed. I'm not making light of
> slavery. That story is far too absurd to even have meaning in that context.
> Do you imagine that you can deduce from it my true feelings on the subject?
> I am, however, making light of the argument as it appeared here and has so
> often in so many places. Besides, I believe my theory is at least as
> persuasive as anybody else's.
imus isnt being castigated for exercising freedom of speech
or because a few ill chosen words
he is being castigated because of the very real threat
that lies behind words like his
early in the thread off was an asshole claiming that
german and japanese aggression of the thirties and forties
wasnt all that bad compared to what other were doing
relatively speaking
that includes nanking hanoi the bataan march the drowning cells of manilla
buchenwald or the people of lidice or oradur
i have the peculiar notion that some activities are inexcusable
not subject to humor or deflation by comparison to other crimes
probably a sideeffect of being a backwards irrational christian
instead of an enlightened citizen of the modern world
Donny Macro
> if youre an alien
> why do yo sound like youre from the north
Lots of planets have a north.
Sam
except that Mal's bit of dialogue after he wins the duel is probably
some of my favorite banter of all time. "Mercy is the mark of a great
man." *stab" "Guess I'm just good one." *poke* "Eh, I'm alright."
I crack up every single time.
--Sam
One Bit Shy
And I have the peculiar notion that I made a mild totally non-substantive
joke, directed at nobody in particular, intended to laugh with the mild
humor I responded to that simply observed how Civil War conversations so
easily get out of hand. An observation you seem intent on proving through
demonstration. (Not to mention impelling me to commit the cardinal sin of
explaining a joke.)
I don't know why you feel the need to project all the ills of the world upon
my moment of levity, but I would suggest to you that your chastisement is
ill directed. I'm not any of the people in the thread you refer to. I
haven't supported any of their positions. (I haven't offered any position
whatsoever on the subject.) I merely laughed at how - once again as it
inevitably does whenever it comes up - the smallest Civil War comment will
generate an argument. No matter how innocuous or even absurd the entry
point is - as this very conversation shows.
I think that's worthy of levity. If you don't - too bad. The preacher in
my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not subject
to humor".
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not subject
> to humor".
consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
you need a new preacher
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
> Writer: Jane Espensen
> Director: Vern Gillum
Skimming through this thread, it looks a lot of you have the same mildly
disappointed attitude towards Shindig that I do, but in the past I've seen
more than one person list it as their very favorite episode of Firefly.
Shindig has a lot of very enjoyable dialogue and acting, but not that much
more than any other episode of Firefly, while the plot is weaker than
most. I know this will sound harsh, but if you focus on the plot, Shindig
almost feels like an episode of a normal TV show....
> Kinda lackluster opening this week, starting with still another bar-
> fight.
Agreed that the teaser doesn't really have much substance to it. I do,
however, think the fighting part was quite good, as fights go.
> The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
> the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
> ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
> would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
> believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
> considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
> him. Doesn't seem to work.
Doesn't work for me either. You could fanwank the duelling as being a
practice limited to Persephone's upper classes, but even then it's still
hard to believe Mal hasn't even heard of it. Not only has he spent time
on Persephone, duelling is just the kind of thing that captures people's
imagination and gets strewn liberally through folk tales and popular
media. (As we see with Espenson here, come to think of it.) If
aristocrats on Persephone are regularly killing each other with swords,
I'd expect everyone in the 'verse to have heard about it.
The details aren't convincing, either. I have a hard time believing that
all duels are to the death, or that a man who fought willingly but lost
and was spared by his opponent would be considered a coward. Not only is
the latter part illogical (someone else's decision to spare you makes you
a coward?), but the whole system sounds *so* harsh that I would expect it
to collapse of its own weight in short order. Compare to the classic 18th
and 19th century duelling tradition: lots of people were killed, but duels
were not always to the death, and being spared by the winner wasn't
necessarily shameful, as long as you had fought willingly. Even if you
assume the Persephone aristocrats are nouveau-riche provincials
desperately trying to out-aristocrat the Core aristocracy (which does make
a great deal of sense), I just can't swallow them keeping such a harsh
duelling system going for long.
While I'm at it, all the sash-wearing titled lords and ladies don't sit
right with me either. It's not the class stratification that bothers me.
(I mean, it does bother me in real life, but it makes sense in the show.)
The problem is the way the upper class is depicted as a pseudo-European
titled aristocracy. Even if they're just personal titles, not hereditary,
it feels weird and doesn't fit well with the Western theme. And were
there any other Sir Thises and Lady Thats mentioned anywhere else in
Firefly or the BDM? I can't think of any. You can always fanwank this as
another weird Persephone-only custom; but as with the duelling, that
definitely feels like a fanwank rather than a "real" explanation to me.
> Weirder still is the fact that he's so
> into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
> else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
> conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
> decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
> it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
> down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
> okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
> chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
Agreed there too. The best way of viewing it I can come up with is that
Mal thinks (perhaps just subconsciously) that he is fighting Ath for
Inara's hand. That would explain why he refuses to escape. However, it
would NOT explain the finally scene, where Mal shares a companionable jug
of hooch with Inara instead of either making a play for her or visibly
backing off from doing so. Mal's motivations for the duel really needed
more work. (But on its own the final scene is quite nice.)
> which is similar. Anyway, they miss out on a chance at a diversion
> when River enters, and I can't really blame them, because it's a scene
> that pops out of the screen. Suddenly seeing the crazy chick having
> poise (not to mention talking in complete sentences) and affecting
> Badger's own accent and mannerisms at him is mesmerizing. How quickly
That is a great scene. And thinking about it now makes me want to watch
the Angel episode Waiting in the Wings again, to see how good Summer's
oft-maligned Russian accent was. (Or was it a French accent?)
Some other random bits I did like:
-all the Badger scenes, but especially Jayne and Mal snickering over his
"I got my hands on a couple."
-also, Jayne knowing the word "pretentious," and Mal's reaction
-gambling for shipboard chores
-Atherton calling Serenity a "piece of _gos se_," followed quickly by
Inara's reaction when she sees Mal enter: "Oh, _gos se_."
-Pretty much everything Kaylee says and does; one tiny bit I really
liked was her keeping the pink ribbon in her hair after she changes back
into her work clothes.
However, I never really cared for flouncy dresses and hoop skirts. I'm
with Zoe: I'd prefer something slinky.
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd just call it Decent. Some parts are very good, but the whole doesn't
match them. (Also, I have to give out *some* Decents to add meaning to
all the Goods and Excellents I'll give out.)
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
C.O.Jones
<O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
It is probably because you are the only person still replying to her
(?) posts...
>
> I think that's worthy of levity. If you don't - too bad. The preacher in
> my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not subject
> to humor".
I agree.
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-54D44...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > I think that's worthy of levity. If you don't - too bad. The preacher in
> > my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not
> > subject
> > to humor".
>
> consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
> you need a new preacher
Always look on the bright side of life.
Always look on the light side of life.
If life seems jolly rotten,
There's something you've forgotten,
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle. That's the thing.
And...
Always look on the bright side of life.
Always look on the right side of life.
For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin.
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it. It's your last chance, anyhow.
So,...
Always look on the bright side of death,
Just before you draw your terminal breath.
Life's a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life's a laugh and death's a joke. It's true.
You'll see it's all a show.
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And...
Always look on the bright side of life.
Always look on the right side of life.
Always look on the bright side of life!
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Donny Macro
>> I think that's worthy of levity. If you don't - too bad. The preacher
>> in
>> my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not
>> subject
>> to humor".
>
> consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
> you need a new preacher
Easter?
Is that the holiday where they open Jesus' tomb and he comes out and if he
sees his shadow there is six more weeks of winter? Or did global warming
change that holiday?
speaking of global warming:
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977
you gotta stop driving your SUV on mars.
Donny Macro
<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:131qaaq...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.firefly Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
>> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
>> Writer: Jane Espensen
>> Director: Vern Gillum
>
> Skimming through this thread, it looks a lot of you have the same mildly
> disappointed attitude towards Shindig that I do, but in the past I've seen
> more than one person list it as their very favorite episode of Firefly.
> Shindig has a lot of very enjoyable dialogue and acting, but not that much
> more than any other episode of Firefly, while the plot is weaker than
> most. I know this will sound harsh, but if you focus on the plot, Shindig
> almost feels like an episode of a normal TV show....
I agree Shindig has a couple of great moments but otherwise it is just good
tv. It is dissapointing when Firefly is only as good as a normal show you
would tune in to watch.
Normally Mal is not stupid, desperate at times, moral (in his own way) to
the point or self defeating behavior, but definately not stupid. And him
fighting the duel is stupid.
>
>> which is similar. Anyway, they miss out on a chance at a diversion
>> when River enters, and I can't really blame them, because it's a scene
>> that pops out of the screen. Suddenly seeing the crazy chick having
>> poise (not to mention talking in complete sentences) and affecting
>> Badger's own accent and mannerisms at him is mesmerizing. How quickly
>
> That is a great scene. And thinking about it now makes me want to watch
> the Angel episode Waiting in the Wings again, to see how good Summer's
> oft-maligned Russian accent was. (Or was it a French accent?)
>
> Some other random bits I did like:
>
> -all the Badger scenes, but especially Jayne and Mal snickering over his
> "I got my hands on a couple."
Is it in the DVD commentaries that the writer wanted to have more reaction
to this, but that Joss had the joke told with just the look Mal gives?
Atlas Bugged
news:1176303110.3...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Oh, I think we haven't mentioned it because it is so obviously the jewel in
that episode's crown. Absolutely priceless stuff.
Atlas Bugged, Wednesday, April 11, 2007
One Bit Shy
>> I think that's worthy of levity. If you don't - too bad. The preacher
>> in
>> my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not
>> subject
>> to humor".
>
> consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
> you need a new preacher
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do
you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am
the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, fuck off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we fuck off, O Lord?
----
So, Grubert... How does it feel to be a mere mortal again?
A mere mortal...? I'll believe it when I'm dead, Lewis! And that's what
the Bakalite must think too!
----
I won't mind leaving this ABSURD universe!
I know what you mean -- It is, after all, Major Grubert's universe!
-----
[Properly sung when hanging on a cross]
Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...
If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.
And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...
For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.
So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath
Life's a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the right side of life...
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the bright side of life...
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life...
(I mean - what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life...
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Donny Macro" <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-54D44...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> I think that's worthy of levity. If you don't - too bad. The preacher
> >> in
> >> my church says that nothing - nothing - on God's green earth is "not
> >> subject
> >> to humor".
> >
> > consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
> > you need a new preacher
>
> Easter?
>
> Is that the holiday where they open Jesus' tomb and he comes out and if he
> sees his shadow there is six more weeks of winter? Or did global warming
> change that holiday?
i suspect i already know what some peoples comments
about shepherd book in jaynestown will be
One Bit Shy
news:110420071154035796%ap...@solidbrass.com...
I hold no ill will towards mariposas. She's had her share of insightful
comments. Sometimes I even agree with her. But we all have our lines in
the sand that brook no compromise and are prone to exasperating
conversation. It's not a big deal.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
>> you need a new preacher
>
> Easter?
>
> Is that the holiday where they open Jesus' tomb and he comes out and if he
> sees his shadow there is six more weeks of winter? Or did global warming
> change that holiday?
>
> speaking of global warming:
> http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977
> you gotta stop driving your SUV on mars.
If anyone's interested, an astronomer's reply to earlier but similar
articles:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/10/global-warming-on-mars/
Speaking of Easter and SUVs, an idiot in an SUV spun out in the lane next
to me and nearly killed me while I was driving to visit family last
weekend. Smaller, lighter vehicles are much easier to control and stop.
It's just like Serenity and the Reaver ship in the pilot! (Well, if you
squint they're kind of similar.)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> Some other random bits I did like:
>>
>> -all the Badger scenes, but especially Jayne and Mal snickering over his
>> "I got my hands on a couple."
>
> Is it in the DVD commentaries that the writer wanted to have more reaction
> to this, but that Joss had the joke told with just the look Mal gives?
Yep, that was in the commentary. Originally Jane Espenson had written an
additional line where Mal says "Invites or testicles?" According to JE,
when Joss read that he said something like "No, you're already past the
joke. Just have Mal give him a look." As is usually (though not always)
the case, Joss was right.
Donny Macro
<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:131qhp5...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.firefly Donny Macro <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
>
>>> consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
>>> you need a new preacher
>>
>> Easter?
>>
>> Is that the holiday where they open Jesus' tomb and he comes out and if
>> he
>> sees his shadow there is six more weeks of winter? Or did global warming
>> change that holiday?
>>
>> speaking of global warming:
>> http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977
>> you gotta stop driving your SUV on mars.
>
> If anyone's interested, an astronomer's reply to earlier but similar
> articles:
>
> http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/10/global-warming-on-mars/
Thanks for the link, I read it....
I dunno, Jupiter Saturn Pluto Mars, and Earth all coincidentally and for
different reasons (having nothing to do with the sun) experiencing what
looks, at first glance, to be warming... Is possible I suppose, it is just a
little peculiar.
>
> Speaking of Easter and SUVs, an idiot in an SUV spun out in the lane next
> to me and nearly killed me while I was driving to visit family last
> weekend. Smaller, lighter vehicles are much easier to control and stop.
> It's just like Serenity and the Reaver ship in the pilot! (Well, if you
> squint they're kind of similar.)
Be careful if you are on the roads today.... I will be squinting!
C.O.Jones
<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote:
> In alt.tv.firefly Donny Macro <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
>
> >> consider what last week and last sunday commenorated
> >> you need a new preacher
> >
> > Easter?
> >
> > Is that the holiday where they open Jesus' tomb and he comes out and if he
> > sees his shadow there is six more weeks of winter? Or did global warming
> > change that holiday?
> >
> > speaking of global warming:
> > http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977
> > you gotta stop driving your SUV on mars.
>
> If anyone's interested, an astronomer's reply to earlier but similar
> articles:
>
> http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/10/global-warming-on-mars/
>
> Speaking of Easter and SUVs, an idiot in an SUV spun out in the lane next
> to me and nearly killed me while I was driving to visit family last
> weekend.
A while ago, here in Arizona two losers took their SUV for a joyride in
the desert at night. They drove off an embankment, landed on their top,
and were killed. It's called "Law of the Jungle."
Ruth
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
Me too .. And I also love when he and Inara are sitting up there on that
thing and he says" Did I mention I got stabbed? Right here!"
Something about Fillion's delivery.
--
Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?
Michael Ikeda
news:131qaaq...@corp.supernews.com:
> In alt.tv.firefly Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
>> (or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic
>> sports") Writer: Jane Espensen
>> Director: Vern Gillum
>
>
> While I'm at it, all the sash-wearing titled lords and ladies
> don't sit right with me either. It's not the class
> stratification that bothers me. (I mean, it does bother me in
> real life, but it makes sense in the show.) The problem is the
> way the upper class is depicted as a pseudo-European titled
> aristocracy. Even if they're just personal titles, not
> hereditary, it feels weird and doesn't fit well with the Western
> theme.
Only the frontierish worlds are "Western in Space". The Core worlds
and the Core-wannabees are not. And the "titled aristocracy" is a
natural development from the class stratification.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Mel
>
>
> Just decent for me. I thought the story bumbled along and never got me
> enthused. The thematic parts were OK. And some individual elements were
> wonderful. (River's lines. Captain tightpants. Kaylee's dress. A few
> other jokes and visuals here and there.) But this is a relatively dead part
> of the series for me when I was wondering why people were making such a big
> deal about it.
>
> OBS
>
>
Next week's TV Guide christens Nathan Fillion's character in "Drive" as
Captain Speedypants :-)
Mel
C.O.Jones
<Reggiethepuppy-F14...@news.west.earthlink.net>, Ruth
<Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
More Fillion coming soon! With direction by Tim Minear.
I'm happy.
Artie Decko
Xenobuzz <xeno...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Critics don't "gush." Critics criticize.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1176269577....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Xenobuzz <xeno...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>> Since I know I don't come off as gushing in text, I think it's time
>>> for one of those periodic reminders that when I rank an episode Good
>>> or Excellent (as has occurred in 75% of these FF reviews so far), it
>>> means that *I enjoyed it*.
>>>
>>> -AOQ
>> Right on! Very glad to hear it!
>>
>> Looking forward to some gushing on the "Excellent" ones! :-)
>>
>
> Critics don't "gush." Critics criticize.
>
And reviewers should *critique*; an honest review discusses the good,
the bad, and the indifferent. Which is why most TV reviewers (supposed
media pros included) either come off as self-absorbed critics who get
off on their perceived power to destroy other people's work or drooling
fanboys (or girls) who can't see a weak point to anything.
Which is why I've enjoyed reading AoQ's reviews since he started the
Buffy series. I may not agree with a particular review, but they're
certainly not repetitious "Greatest episode EVAH!" or "This show sucks
camel snot..."
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:FIREFLY
:Season One, Episode 4: "Shindig"
:(or "At least two of the activities depicted here are Olympic sports")
:Writer: Jane Espensen
:Director: Vern Gillum
:
:The stuff that happens afterward is a little more dubious. A punch to
:the face translating into a duel to the death has to be so universally
:ingrained among Inara's crowd that no one questions it, even when it
:would constitute the murder of an ignorant man, yet we also have to
:believe that Mal didn't know about it (despite having spent
:considerable time on Persephone) and no one ever bothered to warn
:him. Doesn't seem to work.
Who would warn him? He's spent considerable time
on Persephone, but never in the social circles where this
would be the case, and he enters them so precipitously that
no one has time to brief him except for Badger, who probably
doesn't care too much.
:Weirder still is the fact that he's so
:into this fight. If he just couldn't escape without making someone
:else die for him, that'd be one thing. But the big nighttime
:conversation between Mal and Inara offers him a way out and has him
:decline it. The dissonance is bad enough that the writers comment on
:it: "I actually thought I was defending your honor. And I never back
:down from a fight." "Yes you do! You do all the time!" "Yeah,
:okay. But I'm not backing down from this one." Not convincing;
:chivalry to the point of stupidity doesn't seem like our hero at all.
:I'm more interested in another line from this scene, which is Mal's
:"and you think following rules will buy you a nice life, even if the
:rules make you a slave." That really got me thinking this time - is
:that an accurate description? Is she whoring out her principles for
:acceptance, and is not quite being able to follow all the rules a
:reason she's not a normal Companion?
We've seen Inara experience humuliation in her
profession before - in Serenity the episode, when her client
insults her. I think Mal scores a hit with his remarks about
the dishonesty of it, and this is emphaiszed when Atherton
expresses his contempt for her.
:Where does Kaylee fit into that theme? She gets a fair chunk of
:screen-time in what could almost be considered a B-arc. It's also
:about identity and belonging, as we see when Mal cluelessly offends
:her when questioning what she'd do in a layer-cake dress, and
:elsewhere during the episode. She's snubbed by the girls her age, but
:eventually ends up a hit among the local men through her knowledge of
:non-useless things. And takes a few souvenirs of different kinds
:home. I'm struggling to see how that really informs or is influenced
:by the main plot, though - what's the message? I'm inclined to just
:treat these sequences as a chance to get to know Kaylee better and see
:her in different situations, without a deeper meaning. Staite's
:"wounded" facial expression is among the best in the business. One
:thing that bothered me upon re-watching her encounter with the
:Cordettes at the party is that first the one chick hits her with the
:"standards" line that seems like it should instantly crush her
:feelings of giddiness, and then the other useless girl acts friendly
:and makes Kaylee feel bad while, in her own mind, trying to be
:helpful. I feel like the order should be reversed. Here's the
:reference to Mal as "Captain Tightpants," of course, a nickname that
:sticks.
I don't think the girl who made the comment about
Kaylee's dress was trying to be helpful; I think she was
deliberately humiliating Kaylee under the guise of
helpfulness. I think Kaylee, or more specifically her
interaction with the upper crust of Persephone society in
this story, is meant be contrast to show the dishonesty of
that society. Her honesty and guilelessness compared
with the vicious cattiness of the girls who are apparently
seen as high-status is telling.
:
:Sometimes memory makes something funnier than it is. I had this
:recollection of Wash having no reaction at all to Jayne suggesting
:that Zoe get nekkid, kinda refusing to rise to the obvious bait, and
:then getting extemely panicked when Jayne suggested that he himself do
:the same thing. I like that a little better than the actual scene,
:which is similar. Anyway, they miss out on a chance at a diversion
:when River enters, and I can't really blame them, because it's a scene
:that pops out of the screen. Suddenly seeing the crazy chick having
:poise (not to mention talking in complete sentences) and affecting
:Badger's own accent and mannerisms at him is mesmerizing. How quickly
:she reads him at a glance also reinforces the notion suggested in the
:last couple episodes that she's got still undefined mojo of some sort
:at work - not sure how quickly I picked up on that on first viewing.
I especially like the notion of Badger exaggerating
his time spent in lockdown. Mark Sheppard really deserves
props for his performance playing off Summer Glau in that
brief scene. He's clearly disturbed.
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
George W Harris
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> True, but most of the cue damage is done to the fighters. Start throwing
:> balls around and you might get the bartender or the whiskey bottles.
:> Nothing sadder than watching a pool of hooch seep into the floor boards.
:>
:
:H'm. Good point. Of course, some of those clubs stock stuff that could
:only be *improved* by mopping it up from the floor boards...
In which case you don't want it taking the varnish off...
:
:--
:Rowan Hawthorn
:
:"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
:Vampire Slayer"
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
George W Harris
wrote:
:> And if you buy into WGF's idea, it's possible that the Persephonians
:> themselves are made well aware that they're not from a core planet on
:> the occasions when they have to deal with their betters. Class issues
:> beget class issues or something.
:
:I'm not quite there with his Tam family speculation, but the broader notion
:of social strata I'm pretty much in tune with. However, I suspect
:Persephone has fairly unique qualities that at least don't look much like
:how it works at the core. I think it's a cultural backwater of sorts.
I picture it as Virginia in the early 18th century; the
people who think of themselves as aristocrats would be
viewed by English aristocrats as bumpkins.
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
George W Harris
:In article <1176303110.3...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
And Inara's comment on wine being very fresh;
something about Morena's delivery.
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W Harris
wrote:
:Doesn't work for me either. You could fanwank the duelling as being a
:practice limited to Persephone's upper classes, but even then it's still
:hard to believe Mal hasn't even heard of it. Not only has he spent time
:on Persephone, duelling is just the kind of thing that captures people's
:imagination and gets strewn liberally through folk tales and popular
:media. (As we see with Espenson here, come to think of it.) If
:aristocrats on Persephone are regularly killing each other with swords,
:I'd expect everyone in the 'verse to have heard about it.
:
:The details aren't convincing, either. I have a hard time believing that
:all duels are to the death, or that a man who fought willingly but lost
:and was spared by his opponent would be considered a coward. Not only is
:the latter part illogical (someone else's decision to spare you makes you
:a coward?), but the whole system sounds *so* harsh that I would expect it
:to collapse of its own weight in short order. Compare to the classic 18th
:and 19th century duelling tradition: lots of people were killed, but duels
:were not always to the death, and being spared by the winner wasn't
:necessarily shameful, as long as you had fought willingly. Even if you
:assume the Persephone aristocrats are nouveau-riche provincials
:desperately trying to out-aristocrat the Core aristocracy (which does make
:a great deal of sense), I just can't swallow them keeping such a harsh
:duelling system going for long.
How long have they had it, though? It's just been six years
since Unification, an event that no doubt had a profound effect on
Persephone society. Perhaps the aristocracy are simply those wealthy
families who supported Unification and were rewarded by the Alliance, or
opportunistic carpetbaggers from the Core Worlds. It could very well be
that the system is on the verge of collapse under its own weight.
:Some other random bits I did like:
:
:-all the Badger scenes, but especially Jayne and Mal snickering over his
:"I got my hands on a couple."
:
:-also, Jayne knowing the word "pretentious," and Mal's reaction
All of Jayne during that exchange, in fact: grabbing
all the food, and Mal's cup of Ye Olde Blindman's Brew;
"What happened? He see your face?"; "Hurt our
feelings"? "Pretentious?"
:--Chris
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > Xenobuzz <xenob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>> Since I know I don't come off as gushing in text, I think it's time
> >>> for one of those periodic reminders that when I rank an episode Good
> >>> or Excellent (as has occurred in 75% of these FF reviews so far), it
> >>> means that *I enjoyed it*.
>
> >>> -AOQ
> >> Right on! Very glad to hear it!
>
> >> Looking forward to some gushing on the "Excellent" ones! :-)
>
> > Critics don't "gush." Critics criticize.
>
> And reviewers should *critique*; an honest review discusses the good,
> the bad, and the indifferent. Which is why most TV reviewers (supposed
> media pros included) either come off as self-absorbed critics who get
> off on their perceived power to destroy other people's work or drooling
> fanboys (or girls) who can't see a weak point to anything.
>
> Which is why I've enjoyed reading AoQ's reviews since he started the
> Buffy series. I may not agree with a particular review, but they're
> certainly not repetitious "Greatest episode EVAH!" or "This show sucks
> camel snot..."
Greatest post EVAH!
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:30:50 -0000, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> :The details aren't convincing, either. I have a hard time believing that
> :all duels are to the death, or that a man who fought willingly but lost
> :and was spared by his opponent would be considered a coward. Not only is
> :the latter part illogical (someone else's decision to spare you makes you
> :a coward?), but the whole system sounds *so* harsh that I would expect it
> :to collapse of its own weight in short order. Compare to the classic 18th
> :and 19th century duelling tradition: lots of people were killed, but duels
> :were not always to the death, and being spared by the winner wasn't
> :necessarily shameful, as long as you had fought willingly. Even if you
> :assume the Persephone aristocrats are nouveau-riche provincials
> :desperately trying to out-aristocrat the Core aristocracy (which does make
> :a great deal of sense), I just can't swallow them keeping such a harsh
> :duelling system going for long.
>
> How long have they had it, though? It's just been six years
> since Unification, an event that no doubt had a profound effect on
> Persephone society. Perhaps the aristocracy are simply those wealthy
> families who supported Unification and were rewarded by the Alliance, or
> opportunistic carpetbaggers from the Core Worlds. It could very well be
> that the system is on the verge of collapse under its own weight.
That could work, but I think at this point we're far enough removed
from the text of the show itself that we're devoting way more thought
to the topic than there's evidence of the writers having done.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:57:34 -0500, Rowan Hawthorn
> <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :> True, but most of the cue damage is done to the fighters. Start throwing
> :> balls around and you might get the bartender or the whiskey bottles.
> :> Nothing sadder than watching a pool of hooch seep into the floor boards.
> :>
> :
> :H'm. Good point. Of course, some of those clubs stock stuff that could
> :only be *improved* by mopping it up from the floor boards...
>
> In which case you don't want it taking the varnish off...
Varnish...? Oh! You mean the thirty-year-old glaze of spilled beer and
blood... *gack!*
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Well, yeah. This *is* Usenet.
:
:-AOQ
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
Mander
those who can pick and choose when/where to be a 'slave' and for how
long (Inara, and even Mal, after a fashion), and those who are in
permanent servitude with no "choices" (slaves, obviamente, and anyone
who is happy under Alliance control).
nospam...@nospamn.com
isn't there a firefly newsgroup somewhere ?
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:13:58 -0400, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
>news:131lre7...@news.supernews.com...
>> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
>>
>>> Can you actually state - briefly - a unified overall theme for this
>>> episode? One that's not contradicted somewhere along the way?
>>
>> The initial blunt statement is that it's about slavery - slavery being
>> introduced as one of the conditions of their universe in the teaser and
>> then brought up indirectly by Atherton when he speaks of money having
>> exchanged hands for Inara, making her his for that night.
>
>That's not slavery.
>
>Having this wrong is non-trivial, because by failing to make that
>distinction, you do a disservice - a treason, in fact - to those actually
>enslaved.
>
>Inara is "his" for the night, but subject to a laundry list of conditions,
>mostly of Inara's (or general Companion Law's) choosing. They amount to
>"not his" for the night. *Not* slavery, and even as analogy, offensive.
>
> >The friendly gentleman
>> (southern landowner style) speaks of it taking 30 slaves to make the
>> obnoxious girl's dress.
>>
>> Ultimately, that theme is expressed more clearly by Mal when he's
>> practicing for the duel.
>>
>> Mal: You think following the rules will buy you a nice life,even if the
>> rules make you a slave.
>>
>> The sentence is directed to Inara, but can be applied more broadly -
>> probably representing a critical part of Mal's philosophy.
>
>That's a good observation, but literal slavery is not what Mal is talking
>about.
>>
>> With that in mind, the theme of the episode can be more broadly seen as
>> being about oppressive class distinctions. That shows up in various ways
>> throughout the episode. The whole construct of the party pretty clearly
>> points that direction - especially with Kaylee's awkward insertion into
>> it. It's an undercurrent a number of other places as well, such as Inara's
>> out-of-place observing of the rough life in the bar in the teaser and
>> Badger enlisting Mal because social position doesn't allow him to deal
>> with Harrow directly.
>>
>> One of the more interesting representations of it is River's surprising
>> dressing down of Badger. Her words are essentially throwing back into
>> Badger's face his own insecurities about his social status in this world.
>
>I am tempted to agree with that analysis as far as it goes. I still
>disagree, however, that any specific comment is being made on "class
>distinctions."
>
>The episode is both contrived and unfocused, for my money. The show is
>character-driven, which is the good part I like. But no actual theme.
>
>Atlas Bugged, Monday, April 09, 2007
Leviathan
Larry
Behold Beware Believe
<nospam...@nospamn.com> wrote in message
news:p89f2394a3i9hnsba...@4ax.com...
:
: isn't there a firefly newsgroup somewhere ?
:
:
:
: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:13:58 -0400, "Atlas Bugged"
: <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
:
: >"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
: >news:131lre7...@news.supernews.com...
: >> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
: >> news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
: >>
<<garbage snipped>>
Jay Hova
<larry_a...@msn.com> wrote:
> Yes there is. "Atlas Bugged" just can't seem to find it.
We would rather not have him, thank you.
>
> Larry
> Behold Beware Believe
>
> <nospam...@nospamn.com> wrote in message
> news:p89f2394a3i9hnsba...@4ax.com...
> :
> : isn't there a firefly newsgroup somewhere ?
> :
> :
> :
> : On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:13:58 -0400, "Atlas Bugged"
> : <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :
> : >"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> : >news:131lre7...@news.supernews.com...
> : >> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> : >> news:mIbSh.188265$lD4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
> : >>
> <<garbage snipped>>
--
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil
people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes
religion.
-- Steven Weinberg