AOQ Firefly Review 3: "Bushwhacked"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
(or "Hey, kids, shake a leg/Maybe you're crazy in the head")
Writer: Tim Minear
Director: Tim Minear
"Bushwhacked" is a ghost story without any ghosts. It's an exercise
in shifting gears and making everything turn out contrary to
expectations. The stage is set for that right away, with Wash's total
lack of concern regarding whatever space debris the ship hit - "oh,
gawd! What could it beee? We're dooomed!" Of course it ends up
being something nasty. That's standard TV procedure, but just the
first of many iterations in "Bushwhacked."
The mechanism by which we find out what that something nasty is feels
questionable. We The Audience know we're supposed to be unnerved
based on River and the camera work, not mention the tendrils that grab
the ship. But the characters don't seem to have any idea that an
empty ship could have been hit by Reavers. They speculate about
everything else under the suns. Then once there are bodies, they
instantaneously realize the Reaver connection, as if this thing
happens often enough that it should be on one's mind when one sees an
abandoned ship. The cut to the stacked dead actors (well, extras)
stacked to the rafters is suitably disturbing, at least, and the
conflict between respecting the dead and running like hell to stay
alive is interesting in theory... of course, that gets reversed once
we know Mal's real reason for being so keen to stay put, because
that's how this episode works.
The sequences on the alien ship also set the stage for the episode in
another way in that they're kinda dull. Slowly panning though the
dark, and doing so a lot. I'll talk a bit more about the ways in
which the show plays with our minds. But one thing that applies
throughout, though I'll try not to repeat it over and over, is the
consequence that it never really builds up enough steam with any one
mood to draw me in. I think the whole hour is disappointingly low key
given the subject material, and it's lacking in real impact.
Exceptions come from the Tams. Simon being afraid of needing a space
suit to breathe is not the right thing to let slip around Jayne; maybe
he should know better. But once we're seeing it entirely from his
perspective, with the sound of his nervous breathing filling his (and
our) ears, the wandering through the ghost ship actually does become
unsettling. And then the show has something to properly subvert, and
it does so with Jayne's joke. Which is funny but not as hysterical as
the latter thinks it is. The reason that works for me is that I'm
reminded of one of Fillion's comments in the "Serenity" commentary.
One thing he likes about the Jayne character is that in his own mind,
he's the wittiest, most clever son of a bitch in the 'verse. Anyway,
the net effect is that this incident increases our doctor's fear of
suiting up. Of course, Simon will end up trusting his life to a space-
suit later in the episode after all. He handles it pretty well - I
guess it's not worth it (or interesting) for the show to make too big
a deal out of it. Not every fear has to be a crippling phobia.
River emerges as kinda a focus and catalyst of the story despite the
fact that it's not really about her (except, as always, for her effect
on Simon). Besides being the reason for some of the action in the
second half, she's also the one who first reacts badly to the dead
ship - too bad no one has a way of knowing how good her intuition has
been thus far - and there are several jarring cuts back to her. And I
like it just for itself, even if it doesn't end up doing much beyond
saying "suspense!" that never materializes in the expected way. River
is again a difficulty for the viewer that the show is handling by
keeping her scenes brief, because one wants to care about and even
like her, but she's too insane and incomprehensible to get close to.
She does have some good days, including how much she enjoys her trip
outside the ship ([Drusilla] Do i' again! Do i' again!) as everyone
else panics. She's shaping up to be a sort of Cassandra in that her
moods and reads on a situation are always opposite everyone else's.
Someone's soon knockin' at the door... and again the story takes the
route no one was expecting, and it's the Alliance in one of their cool
city-ships. Last week I complained about the non-characters who
populated the Evil Government scenes, so I have to give props this
time. The captain is a bit of a jerk with an unpleasantly smug
manner, but he's recognizable as a human being, and "Bushwhacked" is
stronger for it. He has an innate way of looking down on those
outside the Alliance's bosom, but that's important primarily because
it leads him to see Mal's group as a suspicious bunch, and to suspect
them of being mass murderers, a notion he'll abandon once he gets
enough information to discard it. At first this arrival leads to an
unexpected lull in the action once Simon and River have gone off
hiding (we don't know where yet), and most of the time is spent
interviewing the crew. It's a comedy sequence, after all the implied
gore we've just encountered. A reasonably good one too, as we use
the old chestnut of cutting between contradicting or unrelated
characters' stories at opportune times (my favorite is going off Inara
right before "and do you love him?"). That serves as another way to
get to know the crew slightly better in a non-imminent doom setting,
like the ball game in the teaser, and Wash gets a chance to be a
goofball again - oh, also laughed at people knocking over and throwing
around his dinosaurs while combing the ship. Guess what? More mood-
swinging follows. The fact that this is leading to Mal getting
dragged away for a likely unfair trial sneaks up on us, and that in
turn gets pushed aside in favor of dealing with the ghost ship's
threat.
Side-note: It's established here that Inara's been renting her
shuttle for something like a year. In the previous episode, I think
it was eight months, so either time is passing, or Joss sucks at
math. The way she interacts with Mal makes it seem like they should
have a longer association than that, though. Or maybe it's just me.
Side-note: Processed foodstuffs as a valuable commodity is a nice bit
of consistency.
Side-note: The fake misunderstanding about children [Mal's response
when asked about the siblings] is a pretty clever way of playing dumb.
There was no way to help the guy who saw madness after all, and that's
basically all we get of the Reaver menace, continuing the trend of
seeing them only through their effects on the living. The show ends
with the unnamed (as far as I can tell) victim attacking at an
opportune moment, and Mal quickly killing him. It's an anticlimax.
Anticlimaxes aren't inherently bad, and Joss's shows sometimes make
good use of them, but in this case it adds to the sense that the
episode keeps setting stuff up and then fizzling. The rhythm of the
scene leading into it is suggesting that there's still tension that
has to finish mounting, with the hunt through the ship, the proximity
of the fugitives, and our hero's captors not fully on his page.
Instead the buildup is cut off before it can fully emerge from tepid-
ness, snap a neck, a few lines of expository dialogue, and the show's
over. Not such an earned anticlimax. Overall, the enemy being just
one crazy guy is a microcosm for an episode that tries to get by on
"eerie" while constantly trying to fool us into thinking it's doing
"scary." The final visual of proverbially setting fire to the killing
ground looks stately in an appropriate way, at least.
Once again a mention for the background music, which is uniformly
excellent throughout the show. Obviously I'm going to have to
memorize Edmonson's sooner rather than later if this keeps up.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "Not now, dear"
- Mal knocking out the guy while talking about mercy
So...
One-sentence summary: Acceptable, with the nagging feeling that it
could've been better.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Ratings so far:
1) "Serenity" - Excellent
2) "The Train Job" - Good
3) "Bushwhacked" - Decent]
Atlas Bugged
news:1175740511.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
> (or "Hey, kids, shake a leg/Maybe you're crazy in the head")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
>
week, you missed a lot.
>
> The mechanism by which we find out what that something nasty is feels
> questionable. We The Audience know we're supposed to be unnerved
> based on River and the camera work, not mention the tendrils that grab
> the ship. But the characters don't seem to have any idea that an
> empty ship could have been hit by Reavers. They speculate about
> everything else under the suns. Then once there are bodies, they
> instantaneously realize the Reaver connection, as if this thing
> happens often enough that it should be on one's mind when one sees an
> abandoned ship.
Mal is the one who realizes the actual threat, he is the seasoned leader.
It becomes apparent to him only after considerable investigation and the
sight of the body-pile.
?The cut to the stacked dead actors (well, extras)
> stacked to the rafters is suitably disturbing, at least, and the
> conflict between respecting the dead and running like hell to stay
> alive is interesting in theory... of course, that gets reversed once
> we know Mal's real reason for being so keen to stay put, because
> that's how this episode works.
>
> The sequences on the alien ship also set the stage for the episode in
> another way in that they're kinda dull. Slowly panning though the
> dark, and doing so a lot. I'll talk a bit more about the ways in
> which the show plays with our minds. But one thing that applies
> throughout, though I'll try not to repeat it over and over, is the
> consequence that it never really builds up enough steam with any one
> mood to draw me in. I think the whole hour is disappointingly low key
> given the subject material, and it's lacking in real impact.
I'm more focused upon the wide variety of successful techniques, moods,
sub-stories, and range of this episode, all of which you do mention. You
can't have it both ways. If you wanted a sustained, careful build-up on any
aspect, such as the horror-theme, you won't veru well have much room for the
excellent Simon-River sub-theme, not the fabulous character exposition and
high-humour of the interrogations.
>
> Exceptions come from the Tams. [delete your comments on this for space.]
>
>River
> is again a difficulty for the viewer that the show is handling by
> keeping her scenes brief, because one wants to care about and even
> like her, but she's too insane and incomprehensible to get close to.
A recurring comment of mine. River is mostly a liability for the TV
episodes, which Whedon completely reversed in the film, where she's
spectacular. Had there been no film, she would have gone down as a series
negative, overall. It's true here and in most of the eps.
> Someone's soon knockin' at the door... and again the story takes the
> route no one was expecting, and it's the Alliance in one of their cool
> city-ships. Last week I complained about the non-characters who
> populated the Evil Government scenes, so I have to give props this
> time. The captain is a bit of a jerk with an unpleasantly smug
> manner, but he's recognizable as a human being, and "Bushwhacked" is
> stronger for it. He has an innate way of looking down on those
> outside the Alliance's bosom, but that's important primarily because
> it leads him to see Mal's group as a suspicious bunch, and to suspect
> them of being mass murderers, a notion he'll abandon once he gets
> enough information to discard it.
What you're missing is that he's Minear's archtype for present-day
government. The organization man, but with life-and-death power.
He's elected by the people, for the people, and all of that (the Alliance,
we know, is a democracy,) but in terms of one-on-one, a democracy does not
change the fact of a vastly-powerful and barely competent, probably corrupt
guy coming in and taking away your life upon his whim.
People still think they will tell the traffic cop "Hey, I pay taxes, you
work for me!" But Minear is telling you to grow up. That cop doesn't work
for you, he works for him.
An insurance agent or tire salesman similarly works for him/her self, but in
the government sphere, this person *owns* you, your family, your home,
whatever. In the end, of course, we see his true face. Mal saves his life.
He repays Mal by letting him "go on his way," (i.e., allows Mal to live,)
but also steals from Mal, thinking he's been merciful.
At first this arrival leads to an
> unexpected lull in the action once Simon and River have gone off
> hiding (we don't know where yet), and most of the time is spent
> interviewing the crew. It's a comedy sequence, after all the implied
> gore we've just encountered.
And a brilliant character exposition. This is a good idea when you have 9+1
characters in your television show.
[a few deletions for space.]
>
> There was no way to help the guy who saw madness after all, and that's
> basically all we get of the Reaver menace, continuing the trend of
> seeing them only through their effects on the living. The show ends
> with the unnamed (as far as I can tell) victim attacking at an
> opportune moment, and Mal quickly killing him.
The real flaw in this episode is both the depiction of "Stockholm Syndrome"
and Mal's seemingly automatic knowledge that it's the thing at work. All
that was a bit of a stretch. Maybe in that guy's position I'd want to
imitate a Reaver, but that's not clear to me at all. I think I'd be
passively psychotic, huddled in a fetal position, wishing they'd just kill
me.
>It's an anticlimax.
I don't see that at all.
>Overall, the enemy being just
> one crazy guy is a microcosm for an episode that tries to get by on
> "eerie" while constantly trying to fool us into thinking it's doing
> "scary." The final visual of proverbially setting fire to the killing
> ground looks stately in an appropriate way, at least.
The show isn't about the one crazy guy. You are missing it. This episode
is about who Mal is, who the Alliance is, and their inherent differences.
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> [Ratings so far:
> 1) "Serenity" - Excellent
> 2) "The Train Job" - Good
> 3) "Bushwhacked" - Decent]
Using your scale, you missed the boat. This episode rates "good." You are
incorrectly identifying the "Reaver" aspect as the "A" story. It isn't.
Still, many thoughtful observations, keep up the good work. I'd also
suggest you dole these out more slowly since we who follow them have only so
much free time.
Atlas Bugged, Wednesday, April 04, 2007
--
SERENITY/FIREFLY FAQ, PLUS!
http://snipurl.com/k8ui "One page, all you need to know, referenced."
STARGATE ATLANTIS FAQ
http://snipurl.com/SGAFAQ "Still just a draft, perhaps daft, help to make it
better."
GOODBYE, SG-1
http://snipurl.com/1d8kw "Homage to the legend w/ last ep comments, no
spoilers."
TROLL/RATS:
http://snipurl.com/19k1q "Referenced guide to stinkers that hide."
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
> (or "Hey, kids, shake a leg/Maybe you're crazy in the head")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
if i remember aright they do one of the plot things that irritates me
where a character declares an emergency
but rather than accept that and react
the other characters sound around and debate
(dawn when ben yelled at her to leave but she argued till glory emerged etc)
in this case river is aware they have to leave the ship again
but simon instead decides he needs to debate the issue
until its too late and they have to try to hide
it just a fake tension ploy like the horror movie
where the audience is shouting to the screen dont go in that room
ive seen enough times to get irritated not frightened
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
One Bit Shy
news:9g_Qh.75552$Ts6....@fe12.news.easynews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1175740511.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
I'm going to be out of town for - um, I'm not sure. A few days anyway. So
I'm tossing this in rushed and tired before I go.
I like this episode a lot. It's not my favorite, but when I first watched
the DVDs, this is when I decided that I liked the series.
It's not perfect. The Reaver concept falls short in one aspect. (Not your
complaint. I have no problem with Mal taking a while to realize it was
Reavers and then working out consequent implications. We may have seen them
twice now, but the show has been telling us that they exist more as rumor
than reality for most people. They're really not a common experience.) My
problem is that the reaction of the one left behind to become one himself
isn't believable - not as Mal describes it anyway. I don't like that, but
it's easy enough to set aside. The broader idea of the wild threat is OK.
I like how it works on their minds even when they're not tangibly there.
I sense there is subtext to this episode I'm not getting, but I'm too tired
to try to work that out now. I know I do love the first half of the episode
for it's amosphere. First the community sense we see in the game that
doesn't seem to have rules. They struggle to keep their heads above water
for much of thier life, but live hearty anyway. It's a really positive view
for people barely getting by. Then there's the ghost story which is heavily
atmospheric.
Beautifully done atmospherics. The filiming of this episode is just
brilliant all around. Editing, lighting, dressing the set, character
movement, camera movement, music, prop design - everything. It's very rare
to see such a visual feast on TV. I like the tentacled booby trap. I like
how Jayne displays his greed as he shoves everything that shines into his
bag. I like the play of the flashlights up to the bodies as everybody looks
up. I even like the look of the hose Kaylee cuts into that disables the
trap. I feel like I could list every element in the first half as perfectly
placed.
And it is creepy.
Some decent humor too. The part of Jayne's joke on Simon I really like is
how his helmet is slightly twisted out of place when he tries to put it on.
He looks so goofy in it. But of course it proves good that he learned how
in the end.
The second half is completely different in a way, yet it carries every bit
as much tension, if not more. If the injuns don't get 'em, the cavalry
will. As scary as the unknown was with the Reavers, at least there was
something they could do about it. When the law shows up, the crew of
Serenity seem so helpless. Perversely, the Reavers leaving behind one
living victim is what saves them. Life on the frontier is hard. A message
that even the alliance commander gets in the end. I rather like the brief
scene of the dead ship being destroyed at the end. We know that commander
is a changed man now. A harder one. Something else that makes you
appreciate what Mal is. Maybe Serenity Valley isn't the only thing that
influences him.
One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her look
of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her eagerness
to go out again. Back in the opening episode, River immediately intrigues
and offers some waifish appeal. But it's a pretty sterile mystery. With
these two peeks into the joyful side of her mad character, I now really want
to know her, want to unravel the mystery, and find myself rooting for her to
make it. She made just enough of a connection for her to matter. And now
that she matters, wow, that's one strange and fascinating chick.
That'll have to do for now. See you whenever.
Oh, I'd rate it Good.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:9g_Qh.75552$Ts6....@fe12.news.easynews.com...
> news:1175740511.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Ooops. I meant that to be a response to AOQ.
OBS
Atlas Bugged
news:1318vsv...@news.supernews.com...
>My problem is that the reaction of the one left behind to become one
>himself isn't believable - not as Mal describes it anyway.
Yes. This mirrors my complaint precisely. There is a real-world item, very
similar, called "Stockholm Syndrome" and I'm guessing Whedon (or Minear)
wanted to hang part of the episode on this rather unusual phenomenon. But
it's no everyday thing, and it's a stretch that Mal's seen it, knows the
whole puzzle up front because of it, and that this particular situation
would invariably produce it.
> I sense there is subtext to this episode I'm not getting, but I'm too
> tired to try to work that out now. I know I do love the first half of the
> episode for it's amosphere. First the community sense we see in the game
> that doesn't seem to have rules. They struggle to keep their heads above
> water for much of thier life, but live hearty anyway. It's a really
> positive view for people barely getting by. Then there's the ghost story
> which is heavily atmospheric.
>
> Beautifully done atmospherics. The filiming of this episode is just
> brilliant all around. Editing, lighting, dressing the set, character
> movement, camera movement, music, prop design - everything. It's very
> rare to see such a visual feast on TV. I like the tentacled booby trap.
Me too. A lot. Way cool. And just a trivial element. FIREFLY is
invariably dense with ideas, themes, great dialogue, on and on.
[...]
> One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
> understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
> number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
> impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
> watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her
> look of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her
> eagerness to go out again.
I completely agree - her fascination with EVA filled me with wonder and joy.
She speaks to my deepest wishes - yours too, I reckon.
All I meant to say is that she remains - like the tentacles - either a
mini-plot for the show, and most other times, an annoying and babbling
distraction.
But when she's put to good use - never in any major respect until the
movie - it's like anything else Whedon touches in FIREFLY, it turns to gold.
That opening sequence in the final episode is almost committed to my memory.
I could recite the lines.
>Back in the opening episode, River immediately intrigues and offers some
>waifish appeal. But it's a pretty sterile mystery. With these two peeks
>into the joyful side of her mad character, I now really want to know her,
>want to unravel the mystery, and find myself rooting for her to make it.
>She made just enough of a connection for her to matter. And now that she
>matters, wow, that's one strange and fascinating chick.
But clinically nuts and incoherent a great deal of the time. A departure
from the Whedon/Minear propensity for almost every line to be a knockout.
Atlas Bugged, Thursday, April 05, 2007
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> complaint. I have no problem with Mal taking a while to realize it was
> Reavers and then working out consequent implications. We may have seen them
> twice now, but the show has been telling us that they exist more as rumor
> than reality for most people. They're really not a common experience.) My
> problem is that the reaction of the one left behind to become one himself
> isn't believable - not as Mal describes it anyway. I don't like that, but
> it's easy enough to set aside. The broader idea of the wild threat is OK.
> I like how it works on their minds even when they're not tangibly there.
perhaps the original idea was that reaverness was a kind of contagious disease
those were exposed to reavers and survived were likely to be infected
that could tie into biological vampires (like blade or underworld)
and be a scientific version of what are demons in other mutant enemy shows
and they could also have been intended a secret alliance relation to reavers
even before the movie
Don Sample
"Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:1318vsv...@news.supernews.com...
> >My problem is that the reaction of the one left behind to become one
> >himself isn't believable - not as Mal describes it anyway.
>
> Yes. This mirrors my complaint precisely. There is a real-world item, very
> similar, called "Stockholm Syndrome" and I'm guessing Whedon (or Minear)
> wanted to hang part of the episode on this rather unusual phenomenon. But
> it's no everyday thing, and it's a stretch that Mal's seen it, knows the
> whole puzzle up front because of it, and that this particular situation
> would invariably produce it.
And it's quite a stretch to believe that Mal is so well versed with the
ways of the Reavers, while the Alliance command believes them to be
mythical. This requires that those holding the reigns of power in the
Alliance are even more out of touch with reality than the Bush
administration.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Atlas Bugged
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
Yeah, you're brand new around here, with no real e-mail, untraceable. Had a
feeling about you.
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-EBCB9...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It's not perfect. The Reaver concept falls short in one aspect.
> > (Not your complaint. I have no problem with Mal taking a while to
> > realize it was Reavers and then working out consequent
> > implications. We may have seen them twice now, but the show has
> > been telling us that they exist more as rumor than reality for most
> > people. They're really not a common experience.) My problem is
> > that the reaction of the one left behind to become one himself
> > isn't believable - not as Mal describes it anyway. I don't like
> > that, but it's easy enough to set aside. The broader idea of the
> > wild threat is OK. I like how it works on their minds even when
> > they're not tangibly there.
>
> perhaps the original idea was that reaverness was a kind of
> contagious disease those were exposed to reavers and survived were
> likely to be infected
But then the crews of Serenity and the Alliance cruiser would also be at
risk.
Julian Treadwell
> "Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9g_Qh.75552$Ts6....@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1175740511.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> FIREFLY
>>> Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
>
I share a little of Arbitrar's view that the pacing and tension of the
episode falls a bit short of Joss' and Tim's usual excellent standards.
>
> It's not perfect. The Reaver concept falls short in one aspect. (Not your
> complaint. I have no problem with Mal taking a while to realize it was
> Reavers and then working out consequent implications. We may have seen them
> twice now, but the show has been telling us that they exist more as rumor
> than reality for most people. They're really not a common experience.)
From the BDM I think we can assume that their existence is denied by
the Alliance as part of the Miranda cover-up. So rumours are all that
most people would have heard.
> Beautifully done atmospherics.
A good set but I agree with the OP that the moods of the various
sub-plots don't quite work for me. There's high tension, then suddenly
a mroe relacxed scene, then back to the high-tension bit that doesn't
seem tense any more.
> Some decent humor too. The part of Jayne's joke on Simon I really like is
> how his helmet is slightly twisted out of place when he tries to put it on.
> He looks so goofy in it. But of course it proves good that he learned how
> in the end.
Absolutely - the humour is quite up to scratch.
> The second half is completely different in a way, yet it carries every bit
> as much tension, if not more. If the injuns don't get 'em, the cavalry
> will. As scary as the unknown was with the Reavers, at least there was
> something they could do about it. When the law shows up, the crew of
> Serenity seem so helpless. Perversely, the Reavers leaving behind one
> living victim is what saves them. Life on the frontier is hard. A message
> that even the alliance commander gets in the end. I rather like the brief
> scene of the dead ship being destroyed at the end. We know that commander
> is a changed man now. A harder one. Something else that makes you
> appreciate what Mal is. Maybe Serenity Valley isn't the only thing that
> influences him.
Agreed, good character development and background info.
> One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
> understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
> number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
> impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
> watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her look
> of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her eagerness
> to go out again. Back in the opening episode, River immediately intrigues
> and offers some waifish appeal. But it's a pretty sterile mystery. With
> these two peeks into the joyful side of her mad character, I now really want
> to know her, want to unravel the mystery, and find myself rooting for her to
> make it. She made just enough of a connection for her to matter. And now
> that she matters, wow, that's one strange and fascinating chick.
And again agreed, it's the first time River's magic starts to shine for
me too.
I'd give it a "good", falls away from "excellent" only in the plot
pacing and erratic tension. Probably rates about #10 in my list or ff eps.
Julian Treadwell
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:1318vsv...@news.supernews.com...
>> My problem is that the reaction of the one left behind to become one
>> himself isn't believable - not as Mal describes it anyway.
>
> Yes. This mirrors my complaint precisely. There is a real-world item, very
> similar, called "Stockholm Syndrome" and I'm guessing Whedon (or Minear)
> wanted to hang part of the episode on this rather unusual phenomenon. But
> it's no everyday thing, and it's a stretch that Mal's seen it, knows the
> whole puzzle up front because of it, and that this particular situation
> would invariably produce it.
Not sure why you say 'invariably'. I don't think Mal concluded this was
happening until he heard that the guy had split his own tongue.
Don Sample
Julian Treadwell <julian.t...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
Mal ordered that he be doped and locked up, and when Book chided him for
his uncharitable attitude said: "Charity'd be putting a bullet in his
brainpan." I think Mal had a pretty good idea of what he was going to
do when he woke up.
Julian Treadwell
worth living from now on because of the extreme trauma the reavers had
put him through.
Don Sample
Julian Treadwell <julian.t...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
But that doesn't explain why Mal ordered him locked up, bolted the
infirmary door from the outside and orders that no one is to go into it.
KAYLEE
So? How's our patient?
SIMON
Aside from borderline malnutrition, he's in
remarkably good health.
BOOK
(some relief)
So he'll live, then?
SIMON
Yes.
MAL
Which, to my mind, is unfortunate.
The others react, surprised.
BOOK
Not a very charitable attitude, Captain.
MAL
Charity'd be putting a bullet in his brainpan.
INARA
Mal!
MAL
Only save him the suffering.
Mal shuts the infirmary door, bolts it from the outside.
MAL
Nobody goes in there. Nothing more we can do for
him now. Not after what he's seen.
ruthless
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
> understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
> number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
> impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
> watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her look
> of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her eagerness
> to go out again.
Absolutely.
--
Quis custodiet ipsos custo?
" I tried reality once, I found it too confining" Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<Selfgratifyingoldtimer...@news.west.earthlink.net>,
ruthless <Selfgratify...@reggie.com> wrote:
> In article <1318vsv...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >
> > One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
> > understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
> > number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
> > impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
> > watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her
> > look
> > of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her
> > eagerness
> > to go out again.
>
> Absolutely.
one of the points of the play -our town-
is just how much beauty and passion there is in mundane everyday life
but we get so caught up with living that we dont enjoy living until its over
river is the first character to notice that as difficult as life is for serenity
it is still a extraordinary place to be
Boothy20
<mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <1175740511.100513.149...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
I think the only reason River wants to leave the ship again is because
she enjoyed it so much. It's like "Let's go again! Let's go again!"
after you get off a particularly good rollercoaster.
William George Ferguson
The feeling that OBS is a long time poster to atbvs and has been responding
to AOQ's reviews for the last year?
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
One Bit Shy
Heh. Well, evidently you've had some experiences, so I won't give you a
hard time about that. Over time I've had a few experiences too. The lack
of an e-mail address is just to reduce the nuisance level. If you ever
really feel the need to e-mail me, that can easily be accommodated.
As for being new... I've been deeply engaged in AOQ's BtVS and AtS reviews
for the past year. Look it up in Google.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
> (or "Hey, kids, shake a leg/Maybe you're crazy in the head")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
.
> The mechanism by which we find out what that something nasty is feels
> questionable. We The Audience know we're supposed to be unnerved
> based on River and the camera work, not mention the tendrils that grab
> the ship. But the characters don't seem to have any idea that an
> empty ship could have been hit by Reavers. They speculate about
> everything else under the suns. Then once there are bodies, they
> instantaneously realize the Reaver connection, as if this thing
> happens often enough that it should be on one's mind when one sees an
> abandoned ship.
Yeah, to me this is the weakest part of the story. If Mal and most of his
crew know that Reavers are real, then they should have considered the
possibility of a Reaver attack as soon as they found the derelict ship.
It would have been better to have someone mention Reavers as a
possibility, only to mistakenly dismiss it for some reason or another
(it's not Reaver territory, there are no visible bodies, whatever), only
to realize their mistake when the bodies are found.
So about those Reavers: Like a lot of people, I find the idea that someone
could become a Reaver wannabe just by watching Reavers butcher his family.
It's not impossible, I suppose, but it seems a *lot* less likely than,
say, becoming suicidal or catatonic. (This is the second-weakest part of
the story, IMO.) I also have trouble with the idea that Reavers are
simply men who've gone mad on the edge of space. On first viewing I
speculated that however Reavers first go mad, they probably maintain and
enhance their particular madness with drugs and lots of cultish rituals.
(The whole rape/murder/cannibalism/skinning thing could have been as much
a ritual to sustain the madness as a result of that madness.) The BDM
movie presents a different view of the Reavers, which works well within
the movie but doesn't really fit with Bushwhacked. How do the Reavers
gain new recruits like the survivor from the colony ship, who wasn't part
of the Miranda experiment? IMO the Reavers are a neat concept that
doesn't entirely make sense. However, it's easy for me to live with; if
there's too much inconsistency, it can be fanwanked away simply by saying
that there's a lot about the Reavers that we still don't konw.
Apparently Reavers are widely acknowledged by people on the border worlds,
something between a rumor and a myth to people in the Core, and secretly
known to be true by certain covert government and corporate bodies.
Substitute "Watchers, the Slayer and her friends, and an underground of
occultists" for "people on the border worlds," and it's not unlike the
position the supernatural occupies on BtVS and AtS.
> The sequences on the alien ship also set the stage for the episode in
> another way in that they're kinda dull. Slowly panning though the
> dark, and doing so a lot. I'll talk a bit more about the ways in
> which the show plays with our minds. But one thing that applies
> throughout, though I'll try not to repeat it over and over, is the
> consequence that it never really builds up enough steam with any one
> mood to draw me in.
The sequences on the, ahem, derelict ship worked pretty well for me --
nice and atmospheric, and not quite long enough to get tedious. Maybe I
just have a thing for scenes lit by flashlights, I dunno. However, I
would agree about the anticlimactic final section with the new Reaver back
on Serenity. It was too abrupt to build up much emotional impact. They
enter Serenity, the guy jumps out, Mal kills him, and boom it's over.
There wasn't enough time to build up the suspense that hunting a crazed
killer really should have. A longer hunt/battle through the ship would
have worked better, though something else would have had to be cut to make
room for it.
> River emerges as kinda a focus and catalyst of the story despite the
> fact that it's not really about her (except, as always, for her effect
> on Simon). Besides being the reason for some of the action in the
> second half, she's also the one who first reacts badly to the dead
> ship - too bad no one has a way of knowing how good her intuition has
> been thus far - and there are several jarring cuts back to her.
On first viewing I don't think I entirely grasped the important thing
about River: she's not *just* crazy. She's actually picking other
people's thoughts and emotions. And she's crazy too. She may also have a
certain degree of precognition and other powers, but here I think it's
mostly mind-reading. Realizing this, in retrospect her behavior mostly
makes sense. River is so entranced by the pseudo-basketball game because
she's picking up the players' excitement. Her early comment about all the
screaming on the ship was prompted by the memories of the one survivor,
and later she's afraid to enter the galley because she "heard" him
returning to the ship and hiding there. Her insanity is important because
it keeps anyone else from realizing what's going on with her. (Leading to
another BtVS comparison: Spike early in season 7.) Of course River
doesn't pick up on everything -- Simon's terror at being outside the ship
in a spacesuit doesn't touch her, for instance. This erratic quality also
helps keep the other characters from guessing what's up, and makes things
easier on the writers since they don't have to write every River scene
assuming she hears everyone else's thoughts. Anyway, once I realized all
this, River instantly became a stronger character.
> city-ships. Last week I complained about the non-characters who
> populated the Evil Government scenes, so I have to give props this
> time. The captain is a bit of a jerk with an unpleasantly smug
> manner, but he's recognizable as a human being, and "Bushwhacked" is
> stronger for it.
Agreed there. I especially liked his line about the Reaver-in-training:
"I haven't seen torture like that since ... well, since the war." The war
has left its mark on everyone who was in it, not just Mal and Zoe.
> interviewing the crew. It's a comedy sequence, after all the implied
> gore we've just encountered. A reasonably good one too, as we use
> the old chestnut of cutting between contradicting or unrelated
> characters' stories at opportune times (my favorite is going off Inara
> right before "and do you love him?").
Going from Zoe's "We're very private people" to Wash raving about his
wife's body is good too. I also like the commander's slightly desperate
look as Kaylee rants on and on about ships' engines.
> AOQ rating: Decent
OFV I thought Bushwhacked was an improvement on The Train Job. I also
appreciated it as another missions statement. Sure, "we will do horror as
well as Westerns" isn't much of a statement, but since I loved the variety
on Joss's first two shows I appreciated the promise of variety to come on
Firefly. On repeat viewings TTJ grew on me more than Bushwhacked did, so
now I'd give them both the same lowish Good.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Don Sample
<Selfgratifyingoldtimer...@news.west.earthlink.net>,
ruthless <Selfgratify...@reggie.com> wrote:
> In article <1318vsv...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >
> > One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
> > understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
> > number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
> > impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
> > watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her
> > look
> > of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her
> > eagerness
> > to go out again.
>
> Absolutely.
You do know that those 100 blank lines in your sig are really annoying,
don't you?
Michael Ikeda
news:dsample-AECA27...@news.giganews.com:
There can be a very big difference between what an Alliance captain
knows and what the inner circle of the Alliance knows.
(We learn in the movie that the inner circle knows a lot more about
the Reavers than it admits.)
It does appear to be true, however, that the Alliance has very
little knowledge of what is really happening in the fringes.
From Mercedes Lackey's essay "Serenity and Bobby McGee" in "Finding
Serenity" (edited by Jane Espenson).
"For all the trappings of totalitarianism, the resources of the
Alliance are clearly, from the very first episode, shown as being
stretched thin enough that there are holes appearing in the
fabric."
"The Alliance dares not permit rebellion, but the cost of
maintaining its hold over the worlds and people it conquered is so
high that it risks losing it every moment. It can't provide basic
services, it can't police the frontier, it can't even get accurate
intelligence about what is going on in the fringes. It has to
allow crime bosses and petty warlords to govern pretty much as they
please; the Alliance has to ignore them because it hasn't got the
ability to stop them."
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Apteryx
news:1175740511.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 3: "Bushwhacked"
> (or "Hey, kids, shake a leg/Maybe you're crazy in the head")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
>
> "Bushwhacked" is a ghost story without any ghosts. It's an exercise
> in shifting gears and making everything turn out contrary to
> expectations. The stage is set for that right away, with Wash's total
> lack of concern regarding whatever space debris the ship hit - "oh,
> gawd! What could it beee? We're dooomed!" Of course it ends up
> being something nasty. That's standard TV procedure, but just the
> first of many iterations in "Bushwhacked."
A little irritating there. How slow are they going that hitting something
the size of a human body doesn't penetrate the hull - let alone slow enough
so that its still recognizably a human body afterwards? Are they just going
down the road for smokes, or were they seriously expecting to get somewhere
in their lifetimes?
>
> The sequences on the alien ship also set the stage for the episode in
> another way in that they're kinda dull. Slowly panning though the
> dark, and doing so a lot.
Well, it is a ghost story.
> I'll talk a bit more about the ways in
> which the show plays with our minds. But one thing that applies
> throughout, though I'll try not to repeat it over and over, is the
> consequence that it never really builds up enough steam with any one
> mood to draw me in. I think the whole hour is disappointingly low key
> given the subject material, and it's lacking in real impact.
I guess that pretty much applies to me too.
> She does have some good days, including how much she enjoys her trip
> outside the ship ([Drusilla] Do i' again! Do i' again!) as everyone
> else panics.
I had the impression she was counting the stars while she was outside ie,
doing it the easy way.
> She's shaping up to be a sort of Cassandra in that her
> moods and reads on a situation are always opposite everyone else's.
That and the fact she is always right about danger threatening but no one
takes any notice
>
> Side-note: Processed foodstuffs as a valuable commodity is a nice bit
> of consistency.
Yabbut, consistently dumb.
> There was no way to help the guy who saw madness after all, and that's
> basically all we get of the Reaver menace, continuing the trend of
> seeing them only through their effects on the living. The show ends
> with the unnamed (as far as I can tell) victim attacking at an
> opportune moment, and Mal quickly killing him.
And a metaphorical reference back to the other series. Reaver's victims also
seem to become Reavers if they aren't just lunch, or killed for fun. But
without the whole big sucking thing.
> It's an anticlimax.
> Anticlimaxes aren't inherently bad, and Joss's shows sometimes make
> good use of them, but in this case it adds to the sense that the
> episode keeps setting stuff up and then fizzling. The rhythm of the
> scene leading into it is suggesting that there's still tension that
> has to finish mounting, with the hunt through the ship, the proximity
> of the fugitives, and our hero's captors not fully on his page.
> Instead the buildup is cut off before it can fully emerge from tepid-
> ness, snap a neck, a few lines of expository dialogue, and the show's
> over. Not such an earned anticlimax.
I have to agree, from experience rather than analysis. I have watched this
episode 3 times, and each time got distracted by some minor interruption as
they were looking for the survivor, and returned to watch just in time for
the ending. This time I rewinded to see what had happened, because the two
previous times I hadn't bothered. For a ghost story, it's not riveting
viewing.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Acceptable, with the nagging feeling that it
> could've been better.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I agree with Decent. A lot of Good stuff happens, especially with River and
Simon, but the story isn't that interesting. It's my 11th favourite FF
episode. Overall it's a pretty good decent. My rating for it (4.59) is 0.01
better than BtVS's Living Conditions (86th best BtVS episode), and 0.01
worse than AtS's Judgement (47th best AtS episode, though as I recall I like
that one better than you).
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
There is quite a bit in the movie that is hard to reconcile with things
that went on in the series. First of all we have to assume that Simon
was lying when he told Serenity's crew about how he got his sister out
of the Academy. And the guy becoming a Reaver by exposure to them
doesn't jibe with the way we are told that the Reavers came to be in the
movie.
Atlas Bugged
news:dsample-A60CF0...@news.giganews.com...
> There is quite a bit in the movie that is hard to reconcile with things
> that went on in the series.
I'm going to register dissent with your term, "quite a bit." There's some,
fer sure.
>First of all we have to assume that Simon
> was lying when he told Serenity's crew about how he got his sister out
> of the Academy.
Yeah, that's a well-known bug in the continuity.
>And the guy becoming a Reaver by exposure to them
> doesn't jibe with the way we are told that the Reavers came to be in the
> movie.
Why do you say the guy became a Reaver? Looked like a variation on PTS or
SS to me, at least as far as the story seemed to suggest.
Did they somewhere say that the guy had *become* a Reaver? I remember the
story suggesting this guy had become a human who acted as Reaver, due to
unthinkable trauma, not a guy who actually turned into one.
I also think some posters tried to retcon this by suggesting the Pax was
somehow present in Reaver-ship recirculating air systems, something like
that. But I don't believe the guy was portrayed as a Reaver per se.
Anybody?
Atlas Bugged
> Heh. Well, evidently you've had some experiences, so I won't give you a
> hard time about that.
Yes, "some experiences," that's an affirmative.
It's problematic because you can never be sure who - or what - you're
dealing with.
Unfortunately, you then must set up a series of indicators, all of them
approximations, to decide who's genuine, and worse, you must then make a
decision based upon inferences drawn from other inferences. The good news
is that such decisions, when they go wrong on Usenet, result in little more
than bruised egos..
>Over time I've had a few experiences too. The lack
> of an e-mail address is just to reduce the nuisance level. If you ever
> really feel the need to e-mail me, that can easily be accommodated.
Good. I like munging instead of an untraceable and invalid addy myself, but
I understand the exposure it gives me. I won't ask for an e-mail right now,
but the offer is appreciated and it's also a good "indicator."
>
> As for being new... I've been deeply engaged in AOQ's BtVS and AtS
> reviews for the past year. Look it up in Google.
I did. I know your ID is not new. But it's not a dispositive "indicator,"
I've seen some of the dreck hijack addys that were in long-time use by
actual posters.
At any rate, notwithstanding the uncertainty, I lean toward assuming the
good. So, pleased to meet you.
Atlas Bugged, Thursday, April 05, 2007
Julian Treadwell
> In article <ev254d$34a$1...@aioe.org>,
> Julian Treadwell <julian.t...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample wrote:
<snip>
You could be right, but it's not spelled out. Seems to me Mal just
thought he'd probably be crazy and maybe dangerous.
Julian Treadwell
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-A60CF0...@news.giganews.com...
>> was lying when he told Serenity's crew about how he got his sister out
>> of the Academy.
>
> Yeah, that's a well-known bug in the continuity.
I'm lost. Not angry and not even armed, but lost nonetheless. :)
How does "money, and luck" and "they smuggled her out in cryo" conflict
with the version shown in the BDM? OK, she wasn't in cryo when Simon
busted her out of the institute, but she was in cryo when she boarded
Serenity - so "in cryo" refers to stage 2 of the escape (getting her
off-planet), not stage 1.
What have I missed?
Don Sample
Julian Treadwell <julian.t...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
SIMON
Money. And luck -- for two years I
couldn't get near her, but I was
contacted by some men, some
underground movement. They said she
was in danger, that the government
was playing with her brain. If I
funded them they could sneak her out
in cryo. Get her to Boros and from
there, I could take her... wherever.
MAL
How did you know it wasn't a scam?
SIMON
I didn't. Until you opened that box.
If he'd had anything to do with breaking her out, other than providing
money, he'd have known it wasn't a scam. I don't see him handing her
over to some potential scam artists *after* he's gone to all the trouble
of breaking her out of the Academy. Plus River was somewhat surprised
to see Simon after she got thawed out, which she wouldn't have been if
she knew Simon was responsible for the breakout in the first place.
Don Sample
"Atlas Bugged" <atlasbug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-A60CF0...@news.giganews.com...
> > There is quite a bit in the movie that is hard to reconcile with things
> > that went on in the series.
>
> I'm going to register dissent with your term, "quite a bit." There's some,
> fer sure.
>
> >First of all we have to assume that Simon
> > was lying when he told Serenity's crew about how he got his sister out
> > of the Academy.
>
> Yeah, that's a well-known bug in the continuity.
>
> >And the guy becoming a Reaver by exposure to them
> > doesn't jibe with the way we are told that the Reavers came to be in the
> > movie.
>
> Why do you say the guy became a Reaver? Looked like a variation on PTS or
> SS to me, at least as far as the story seemed to suggest.
>
> Did they somewhere say that the guy had *become* a Reaver? I remember the
> story suggesting this guy had become a human who acted as Reaver, due to
> unthinkable trauma, not a guy who actually turned into one.
If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's usually a duck.
Our Reaver victim turned into a homicidal maniac, just like the Reavers.
Michael Ikeda
Even assuming that the guy really did become something that can
reasonably be called a Reaver...
Just because the original Reavers came to be in a certain way,
doesn't mean that there can't be other ways to turn people into
something that can be called Reavers.
Donny Macro
While I believe Joss needed to show a hell of a lot of backstory in a
very short period of time and probably did change in his mind how the
rescue of River went... (Joss did a fabulous job of telling the backstory,
I don't think quite so much has been shown in such a short period of time
before, nearly as well. The first few minutes of the movie are pure
genius.)
I can fanwank two possibilities to cover this apparent difference.
During the time period after Simon rescued River from the research lab and
when he boarded Serenity a lot could of happened, including apparenlty the
need to put River in cryo, lots more action hero adventure could have
happened
we didn't see. River's lucidity and memory are fairly suspect, I don't know
what
to make of her reactions there. Simon and River went from getting her
on some kind of ship out of the academy, to having her in a cryo box
probably a couple of planets away reduced in circumstances somewhat,
choosing a disreputable looking frieghter to continue to run.
Simon had just bargained for his life with Kaylee's life, he doesn't know
these
people, they might still dump him off the ship... (at the end of the pilot
Simon is
still not sure if Mal won't kill him in his sleep) if the people you are
telling the
story of your life too are possibly about to toss you off a spaceship, it is
not a
good time to go telling them about your 'thrilling heroics' in case they do
decide
to space you, and it becomes time for more action hero type adventure,
better if they don't think you are even capable of it.
Simon wasn't just the spoiled rich kid he made himself out to be, and I
think
Mal may have suspected some of it.
C.O.Jones
Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Of course, (and this is sort of important) those last two lines (Mal
and Simon chatting about "scam' WAS NOT IN THE SCENE. Those lines were
CUT from the scene as shown, thereby rendering them invalid.
>
>
> If he'd had anything to do with breaking her out, other than providing
> money, he'd have known it wasn't a scam. I don't see him handing her
> over to some potential scam artists *after* he's gone to all the trouble
> of breaking her out of the Academy.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't Simons private ship helping in the breaking...
> Plus River was somewhat surprised
> to see Simon after she got thawed out, which she wouldn't have been if
> she knew Simon was responsible for the breakout in the first place.
Or a natural reaction to coming out of the cyro drugs? You know, the
whole confusion thing that MANY people have when regaining
consciousness?
In my opinion, there is not a problem between what was actually shown
of the rescue, and what Simon said in the series. I was always of
opinion that Simon had more to do with the escape than what he said in
the series. Some people are self-depreciating like that.
--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
C.O.Jones
Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > > There is quite a bit in the movie that is hard to reconcile with things
> > > that went on in the series.
> >
> >
> > > doesn't jibe with the way we are told that the Reavers came to be in the
> > > movie.
There have been many discussions on the whole "becoming a reaver"
issue. I suppose the answer is in whether there is only a finite amount
of Reavers that were created in the beginning, and no more, with no new
ones coming along ever. If there are new Reavers still coming along,
then possibly NEW Reavers are NOT made in the same exact way that the
O.R. were made. (Perhaps in a sharing of tainted blood, like vampires?)
Donny Macro
"C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote in message
news:060420070732328110%ap...@solidbrass.com...
Which is only logical when the people you are talking to might try to kill
you.
ruthless
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article
> <Selfgratifyingoldtimer...@news.west.earthlink.net>,
> ruthless <Selfgratify...@reggie.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1318vsv...@news.supernews.com>,
> > "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One special thing this episode did for me is make me like River. I don't
> > > understand your reaction - nor Atlas Bugged for that matter. River has a
> > > number of neat moments this episode, but two that made a particular
> > > impression upon me. The first was her fascination - her thrill - at
> > > watching the crew play their game in the beginning. The second was her
> > > look
> > > of wonder and delight looking out into open space, followed by her
> > > eagerness
> > > to go out again.
> >
> > Absolutely.
>
> You do know that those 100 blank lines in your sig are really annoying,
> don't you?
Yes. And I keep trying to get rid of them and they won't go away.
I think I am gonna have to create a whole new thingy.
Sorry/
C.O.Jones
<donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
> >> Plus River was somewhat surprised
> >> to see Simon after she got thawed out, which she wouldn't have been if
> >> she knew Simon was responsible for the breakout in the first place.
> >
> > Or a natural reaction to coming out of the cyro drugs? You know, the
> > whole confusion thing that MANY people have when regaining
> > consciousness?
> >
> > In my opinion, there is not a problem between what was actually shown
> > of the rescue, and what Simon said in the series. I was always of
> > opinion that Simon had more to do with the escape than what he said in
> > the series. Some people are self-depreciating like that.
>
> Which is only logical when the people you are talking to might try to kill
> you.
I am always mildly surprised when fans take something that was SAID by
a character and treat it as gospel. I don't even do that with my best
friend. It is not what people SAY as much as what they COMMUNICATE, of
which speech is only a part. Just my opinion, of course.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
since whedon isnt my god
i dont have problem with believing he makes mistakes
Donny Macro
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
news:mair_fheal-02700...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <060420071053407371%ap...@solidbrass.com>,
> "C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <EXsRh.4$Lm.2@trndny05>, Donny Macro
>> <donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >> Plus River was somewhat surprised
>> > >> to see Simon after she got thawed out, which she wouldn't have been
>> > >> if
>> > >> she knew Simon was responsible for the breakout in the first place.
>> > >
>> > > Or a natural reaction to coming out of the cyro drugs? You know, the
>> > > whole confusion thing that MANY people have when regaining
>> > > consciousness?
>> > >
>> > > In my opinion, there is not a problem between what was actually shown
>> > > of the rescue, and what Simon said in the series. I was always of
>> > > opinion that Simon had more to do with the escape than what he said
>> > > in
>> > > the series. Some people are self-depreciating like that.
>> >
>> > Which is only logical when the people you are talking to might try to
>> > kill
>> > you.
>>
>> I am always mildly surprised when fans take something that was SAID by
>> a character and treat it as gospel. I don't even do that with my best
>> friend. It is not what people SAY as much as what they COMMUNICATE, of
>> which speech is only a part. Just my opinion, of course.
>
> since whedon isnt my god
He isn't my god either, I just happen to think he is an amazing writer of
dialogue. I am a big fan of scifi, but I like Firefly as much for the
dialogue and character interactions as for the scifi aspects.
> i dont have problem with believing he makes mistakes
I am not sure I would count writing a scene as part of a series, then
reimagining what it meant (if that is what happened) as a mistake, he almost
wrote himself into a corner there, but the needs of the movie format
(coupled with the series backstory) demanded a quick exposition to bring
people who hadn't seen Firefly up to speed, based on the observations of
the many people I brought to see Serenity (most had but some hadn't seen
Firefly) he did a spectular job of writing.
David Buchner
> A little irritating there. How slow are they going that hitting something
> the size of a human body doesn't penetrate the hull - let alone slow enough
> so that its still recognizably a human body afterwards? Are they just going
> down the road for smokes, or were they seriously expecting to get somewhere
> in their lifetimes?
(Laughing out loud) that was so funnily written I had to reply and say
so. But "seriously," I've assumed their tendency to "stumble" upon other
ships must have something to do with traveling in fairly common orbits
to get from one place to another.
So the other ship was traveling in the same basic direction, at about
the same speed. And the guy who "took a walk" kicked off in the reverse
direction of his ship's velocity vector.
...never-minding that that really makes no sense because (a) they're
always saying they're trying to avoid patrols and (b) space is really,
really Big. But, hey... :-)
David Buchner
[responding to The Arbiter's review]
[the Alliance cruiser's commander in "Bushwhacked"]
> What you're missing is that he's Minear's archtype for present-day
> government. The organization man, but with life-and-death power.
>
> He's elected by the people, for the people, and all of that (the Alliance,
> we know, is a democracy,) but in terms of one-on-one, a democracy does not
> change the fact of a vastly-powerful and barely competent, probably corrupt
> guy coming in and taking away your life upon his whim.
One thing I think I saw in the Alliance commanders we saw on screen was
that they were totally not-corrupt. Incompetent? Sure. But very
straight-up, true-believer wholesome loyal public servants. Which is why
the semi-lesson the guy in this episode gets is so rewarding.
> People still think they will tell the traffic cop "Hey, I pay taxes, you
> work for me!" But Minear is telling you to grow up. That cop doesn't work
> for you, he works for him.
Well, he works for The Voters anyway. And they'll eat you alive if they
think it means getting something for free. Oops, I didn't mean the
Reaver pun there. But I'm leaving it in because it somehow fits.
> An insurance agent or tire salesman similarly works for him/her self, but in
> the government sphere, this person *owns* you, your family, your home,
> whatever. In the end, of course, we see his true face. Mal saves his life.
> He repays Mal by letting him "go on his way," (i.e., allows Mal to live,)
> but also steals from Mal, thinking he's been merciful.
I just opened our property tax "statement" this afternoon. I know
exactly, personally, viscerally what you're getting at.
> The real flaw in this episode is both the depiction of "Stockholm Syndrome"
> and Mal's seemingly automatic knowledge that it's the thing at work. All
> that was a bit of a stretch. Maybe in that guy's position I'd want to
> imitate a Reaver, but that's not clear to me at all. I think I'd be
> passively psychotic, huddled in a fetal position, wishing they'd just kill
> me.
Well, we don't actually *know* that Mal's explanation was correct. He
sounded confident and knowledgeable. But people with an opinon *always*
come off sounding confident and knowledgeable. Coulda been wrong. In
fact, the BDM pretty much... [spoiler deleted] (for the record, I liked
Mal's version better).
> Still, many thoughtful observations, keep up the good work. I'd also
> suggest you dole these out more slowly since we who follow them have only so
> much free time.
I've noticed that about you, lately. What? Were you on speed, before?
This is more like the posting volume I'd *expect* from somebody who had,
like, a job. :-)
I got my birthday-present-from-me of the first FIREFLY COMPANION book
yesterday. Enough interesting-looking-stuff in it to make it worthwhile.
You might want to rethink, because it teases that the next volume will
feature *Vera*. One thing I hadn't realized I wanted, but instantly did
flipping through the book, is more behind-the-scenes photos. What did
the stages look like with the sets installed on them. From the outside I
mean. Maybe nobody with a camera was thinking along those lines.
Interesting that the *prop* people seem to have had no shortage of
photos to offer up.
Also of interest to you is that so far I found one whole picture of
Minear in the whole gorram book. ;-) (and it's a *little* picture,
too -- are you trying to say something, Joss?)
David Buchner
> > You do know that those 100 blank lines in your sig are really annoying,
> > don't you?
>
> Yes. And I keep trying to get rid of them and they won't go away.
>
> I think I am gonna have to create a whole new thingy.
For the record, I wasn't all that annoyed, m'self.
But I thought it was funny you said you'd have to create a whole new
thingy. "Thingy," like what? A computer? From scratch?
Ruth
buc...@wcta.net (David Buchner) wrote:
No. A whole new personality thingie in my newsreader. For some reason the damn other one wouldn't delete.
--
no annoying signature
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> > another way in that they're kinda dull. Slowly panning though the
> > which the show plays with our minds. But one thing that applies
> > throughout, though I'll try not to repeat it over and over, is the
> > consequence that it never really builds up enough steam with any one
> > mood to draw me in. I think the whole hour is disappointingly low key
>
> I'm more focused upon the wide variety of successful techniques, moods,
> sub-stories, and range of this episode, all of which you do mention. You
> can't have it both ways. If you wanted a sustained, careful build-up on any
> aspect, such as the horror-theme, you won't veru well have much room for the
> excellent Simon-River sub-theme, not the fabulous character exposition and
> high-humour of the interrogations.
I watch Joss Whedon shows, so I know that it's most certainly possible
to have it both ways.
> >River
> > is again a difficulty for the viewer that the show is handling by
> > keeping her scenes brief, because one wants to care about and even
> > like her, but she's too insane and incomprehensible to get close to.
>
> A recurring comment of mine. River is mostly a liability for the TV
> episodes, which Whedon completely reversed in the film, where she's
> spectacular. Had there been no film, she would have gone down as a series
> negative, overall. It's true here and in most of the eps.
I plan to eventually start disagreeing with you on that one, though,
starting with "Shindig." Be warned.
> > Someone's soon knockin' at the door... and again the story takes the
> > route no one was expecting, and it's the Alliance in one of their cool
> > city-ships. Last week I complained about the non-characters who
> > populated the Evil Government scenes, so I have to give props this
> > time. The captain is a bit of a jerk with an unpleasantly smug
> > manner, but he's recognizable as a human being, and "Bushwhacked" is
> > stronger for it. He has an innate way of looking down on those
> > outside the Alliance's bosom, but that's important primarily because
> > it leads him to see Mal's group as a suspicious bunch, and to suspect
> > them of being mass murderers, a notion he'll abandon once he gets
> > enough information to discard it.
>
> What you're missing is that he's Minear's archtype for present-day
> government. The organization man, but with life-and-death power.
[snip]
> The show isn't about the one crazy guy. You are missing it. This episode
> is about who Mal is, who the Alliance is, and their inherent differences.
If so, he's a much richer and more interesting depiction of the self-
serving regime than we got in "The Train Job." I mostly like his part
of the episode, during the ten minutes or so that he's on screen.
Can't see it as the A-story, though, since the horror atmospherics
dominate "Bushwhacked" both in terms of time elapsed and tone.
(Ultimately the episode is "about" *all* of the various things it
dabbles in with such mixed success.)
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article <1hw5nmc.eskp1lyzgs6oN%buch...@wcta.net>,
> buch...@wcta.net (David Buchner) wrote:
>
> > ruthless <Selfgratifyingoldti...@reggie.com> wrote:
>
> > > > You do know that those 100 blank lines in your sig are really annoying,
> > > > don't you?
>
> > > Yes. And I keep trying to get rid of them and they won't go away.
>
> > > I think I am gonna have to create a whole new thingy.
>
> > For the record, I wasn't all that annoyed, m'self.
>
> > But I thought it was funny you said you'd have to create a whole new
> > thingy. "Thingy," like what? A computer? From scratch?
>
> No. A whole new personality thingie in my newsreader. For some reason the damn other one wouldn't delete.
>
> --
> no annoying signature
So it could be said that the whole group is no longer Ruth-less.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1175740511.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> episode 3 times, and each time got distracted by some minor interruption as
> they were looking for the survivor, and returned to watch just in time for
> the ending. This time I rewinded to see what had happened, because the two
> previous times I hadn't bothered. For a ghost story, it's not riveting
> viewing.
I came close to nodding off this last viewing. It's less than the sum
of its parts, which by themselves should be pretty good.
> I agree with Decent. A lot of Good stuff happens, especially with River and
> Simon, but the story isn't that interesting. It's my 11th favourite FF
> episode. Overall it's a pretty good decent. My rating for it (4.59) is 0.01
> better than BtVS's Living Conditions (86th best BtVS episode), and 0.01
> worse than AtS's Judgement (47th best AtS episode, though as I recall I like
> that one better than you).
... to say the least.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Don Sample" <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote in message
>
> >First of all we have to assume that Simon
>
> > was lying when he told Serenity's crew about how he got his sister out
> > of the Academy.
>
> Yeah, that's a well-known bug in the continuity.
Unless he was lying (though I don't know why he would).
> >And the guy becoming a Reaver by exposure to them
> > doesn't jibe with the way we are told that the Reavers came to be in the
> > movie.
Men who've seen The Black is the myth, then we eventually learn the
rest of the story.
> Why do you say the guy became a Reaver? Looked like a variation on PTS or
> SS to me, at least as far as the story seemed to suggest.
>
> Did they somewhere say that the guy had *become* a Reaver? I remember the
> story suggesting this guy had become a human who acted as Reaver, due to
> unthinkable trauma, not a guy who actually turned into one.
>
> I also think some posters tried to retcon this by suggesting the Pax was
> somehow present in Reaver-ship recirculating air systems, something like
> that. But I don't believe the guy was portrayed as a Reaver per se.
>
> Anybody?
It's vague. But I'm inclined to say that he was imitating them rather
than actually becoming a Reaver just for thematic reasons. One thing
I mentioned in my review is that I think "Serenity" and "Bushwhacked"
are very consciously keeping the Reavers off-screen; the widely used
_Jaws_ approach. We see our "ghosts" entirely through rumors and
their effect on the living. I'm sure that would have changed
eventually, but at this point in the show's life (and at all points,
thanks to that cancellation thing), they're pure mythology.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
nick danger said it first
he walks alone by night
doggedly (ruff ruff)
ruthlessly (i wonder where ruth is)
he climbs the thirteen steps to his office
its
Rowan Hawthorn
ouch...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
David Buchner
> "... There is a real-world item, very
> similar, called "Stockholm Syndrome" and I'm guessing Whedon (or Minear)
> wanted to hang part of the episode on this rather unusual phenomenon. But
> it's no everyday thing, and it's a stretch that Mal's seen it, knows the
> whole puzzle up front because of it, and that this particular situation
> would invariably produce it.
I already posted this elsewhere, a while ago. But I've been thinking:
Mal voices his *opinion.* Maybe he's wrong. I mean, if you want to
square what he says, with what goes on in the movie, uh... he kinda has
to be, don't he?
Ruth
<mair_fheal-69DC2...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >
> > So it could be said that the whole group is no longer Ruth-less.
>
> nick danger said it first
>
> he walks alone by night
> doggedly (ruff ruff)
> ruthlessly (i wonder where ruth is)
> he climbs the thirteen steps to his office
> its
Ok, I love you.
Hugs,
Susan Underhill
--
Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?
Julian Treadwell
emerging from cryo, but I agree that the whole scenario doesn't gel too
well with the opening scenes of the BDM. It kinda just fits, but not
snugly. Maybe this was a plot almost-re-fiddle to make the movie more
self-contained. I never noticed it though, Joss is a skillful surgeon.
One Bit Shy
news:CuWdnVNBmK-nJ4jb...@comcast.com...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:131ad2u...@news.supernews.com...
>> Heh. Well, evidently you've had some experiences, so I won't give you a
>> hard time about that.
>
> Yes, "some experiences," that's an affirmative.
>
> It's problematic because you can never be sure who - or what - you're
> dealing with.
>
> Unfortunately, you then must set up a series of indicators, all of them
> approximations, to decide who's genuine, and worse, you must then make a
> decision based upon inferences drawn from other inferences. The good
> news is that such decisions, when they go wrong on Usenet, result in
> little more than bruised egos..
>
> >Over time I've had a few experiences too. The lack
>> of an e-mail address is just to reduce the nuisance level. If you ever
>> really feel the need to e-mail me, that can easily be accommodated.
>
> Good. I like munging instead of an untraceable and invalid addy myself,
> but I understand the exposure it gives me. I won't ask for an e-mail
> right now, but the offer is appreciated and it's also a good "indicator."
>>
>> As for being new... I've been deeply engaged in AOQ's BtVS and AtS
>> reviews for the past year. Look it up in Google.
>
> I did. I know your ID is not new. But it's not a dispositive
> "indicator," I've seen some of the dreck hijack addys that were in
> long-time use by actual posters.
Well, sure. Nothing's for certain. Sometimes you just gotta take that leap
in faith. Or in this case, more of a bunny hop. I think the risk is low.
> At any rate, notwithstanding the uncertainty, I lean toward assuming the
> good. So, pleased to meet you.
Thank you. I've enjoyed your analysis of the series myself.
OBS
George W Harris
:In article
Susan Underhill?
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
wrote:
:In article <dsample-950F5B...@news.giganews.com>, Don
:Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
:>
:> > > There is quite a bit in the movie that is hard to reconcile with things
:> > > that went on in the series.
:> >
:> >
:> > >And the guy becoming a Reaver by exposure to them
:> > > doesn't jibe with the way we are told that the Reavers came to be in the
:> > > movie.
:
:There have been many discussions on the whole "becoming a reaver"
:issue. I suppose the answer is in whether there is only a finite amount
:of Reavers that were created in the beginning, and no more, with no new
:ones coming along ever. If there are new Reavers still coming along,
:then possibly NEW Reavers are NOT made in the same exact way that the
:O.R. were made. (Perhaps in a sharing of tainted blood, like vampires?)
Mal's words:
They made him watch. He probably tried to
turn away -- they wouldn't let him. You call
him a "survivor?" He's not. A man comes up
against that kind of will, only way to deal with
it, I suspect... is to become it. He's following
the only course that's left to him. First he'll
try to make himself look like one... cut on himself,
desecrate his own flesh... then he'll start acting
like one.
So he's making himself look like one, and then he's
acting like one. That may make him as near a Raevaer as
possible, but doesn't say anything to how Reavers originated.
Maybe there's a Reaver class structure, with the original
Reavers looking down on the Nouveau Reave.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
Daily Bob
Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
And there is the possibility that Professor Reynolds Doctorate is in
Myth and Legends, as opposed to genetics or communicable diseases.
>
> Maybe there's a Reaver class structure, with the original
> Reavers looking down on the Nouveau Reave.
"You call yourself a REAVER?! You, sir are merely a Reaver wannabe!"
--
just Bob
___________
Speech is conveniently located midway between thought and action, where it
often substitutes for both.
-- John Andrew Holmes
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >
> > They made him watch. He probably tried to
> > turn away -- they wouldn't let him. You call
> > him a "survivor?" He's not. A man comes up
> > against that kind of will, only way to deal with
> > it, I suspect... is to become it. He's following
> > the only course that's left to him. First he'll
> > try to make himself look like one... cut on himself,
> > desecrate his own flesh... then he'll start acting
> > like one.
i was rewatching and mal doesnt really react
until after that survivor starts ranting in the surgery
he mentions something like cattle to the slaughter
and thats when mal reacts
it could be that it was something about the speech patterns mal recognized
a few pathologies reveal themselves quickly in how and what a person says
Ruth
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:02:13 GMT, Ruth <Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
>
> :In article
> :<mair_fheal-69DC2...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> : mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> : <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :
> :> >
> :> > So it could be said that the whole group is no longer Ruth-less.
> :>
> :> nick danger said it first
> :>
> :> he walks alone by night
> :> doggedly (ruff ruff)
> :> ruthlessly (i wonder where ruth is)
> :> he climbs the thirteen steps to his office
> :> its
> :
> :
> :Ok, I love you.
> :
> :Hugs,
> :Susan Underhill
>
> Susan Underhill?
Melanie Heybor?
Ruth
> Reavers looking down on the Nouveau Reave.
Guffaw!!!!!!!
Ruth, spewing as per usual( water this time).
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Ruth <Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
> In article <0teo1359f82g1ea5g...@4ax.com>,
> George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:02:13 GMT, Ruth <Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
> >
> > :In article
> > :<mair_fheal-69DC2...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > : mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > : <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > :
> > :> >
> > :> > So it could be said that the whole group is no longer Ruth-less.
> > :>
> > :> nick danger said it first
> > :>
> > :> he walks alone by night
> > :> doggedly (ruff ruff)
> > :> ruthlessly (i wonder where ruth is)
> > :> he climbs the thirteen steps to his office
> > :> its
> > :
> > :
> > :Ok, I love you.
> > :
> > :Hugs,
> > :Susan Underhill
> >
> > Susan Underhill?
>
> Melanie Heybor?
do you mean bambi?
Ruth
<mair_fheal-B2FC4...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> In article <Reggiethepuppy-76A...@news.west.earthlink.net>,
> Ruth <Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <0teo1359f82g1ea5g...@4ax.com>,
> > George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:02:13 GMT, Ruth <Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > :In article
> > > :<mair_fheal-69DC2...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > > : mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > > : <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > :
> > > :> >
> > > :> > So it could be said that the whole group is no longer Ruth-less.
> > > :>
> > > :> nick danger said it first
> > > :>
> > > :> he walks alone by night
> > > :> doggedly (ruff ruff)
> > > :> ruthlessly (i wonder where ruth is)
> > > :> he climbs the thirteen steps to his office
> > > :> its
> > > :
> > > :
> > > :Ok, I love you.
> > > :
> > > :Hugs,
> > > :Susan Underhill
> > >
> > > Susan Underhill?
> >
> > Melanie Heybor?
>
> do you mean bambi?
um....no..
Everyone knew her as Nancy
C.O.Jones
<Reggiethepuppy-B31...@news.west.earthlink.net>, Ruth
<Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
He's no fun, he fell right over.
C.O.Jones
<Reggiethepuppy-826...@news.west.earthlink.net>, Ruth
<Reggiet...@yogi.org> wrote:
> In article <l5fo13995u9ce636e...@4ax.com>,
> George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Maybe there's a Reaver class structure, with the original
> > Reavers looking down on the Nouveau Reave.
>
>
> Guffaw!!!!!!!
>
>
>
> Ruth, spewing as per usual( water this time).
At least you keep your monitor screen clean!