AOQ Bonus Review: "Welcome To The Hellmouth" [unaired pilot]
Arbitrar Of Quality
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
[Unaired pilot]: "Welcome To The Hellmouth"
(or "I know how to pretend to kick you... I think...")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
Sorry to flood the NG, but I couldn't resist.
Thanks to (Harmony) Watcher for being the first to point it out. For
those who aren't in the know, this is at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQX0jmjcYQ
So, most of what I've heard suggests that this version of WTTH is a
demo put together for the network, rather than something that was
actually meant to ever be aired. A quick look at what kind of show
BTVS could be. But the WB seems to have considered it part of the
13-episode contract. So in fact I have no idea what the deal is. I
know Joss is ashamed of it, but back when I learned of the existence of
this thing shortly after starting my review project, I'd hoped that
either it or the script would've been a special feature on the S1
DVDs. Glad it ended up making its way to the Internets. Important
historical document and all.
WTTH v1.0 is in some ways the same show as the full-length episode, so
it's hard to talk about on its own. It's like a cliff-notes
version of WTTH in places. Buffy shows up in school and meets the rest
of the main cast - very quickly. Her initial encounter with Giles
seems to take about half as much time. Cordelia tempts Buffy with the
Fashion Club for a few seconds, then no time to stop and chat, on to
the next scene. Naturally, the viewer's attention gravitates towards
unfamiliar stuff, like the very amusing exchange in which Xander gives
Buffy a heads-up on the various groups hanging around the school.
"Surf's always up somewhere in the world." I like giving the two
a chance to dig each others' sense of humor and have this much
one-on-one time (without the utterly worthless character of Jesse
getting in the way), even if it's an odd followup to our hero running
off with the Cordettes. And Xander is so likable. Nick Brendon seems
to have skipped the part where one has to ease into one's role, and
thus Alexander Harris is the one lead who basically springs into
existence fully formed. Ironic given how on-and-off the writers would
be when trying to work with this character over the years.
The most blatant difference between "Hellmouth"s is Fake Willow,
played by Rif Regan. This is one of the pilot's biggest weaknesses,
considering that she's supposed to be one of the stars. On the one
hand, I appreciate the idea of having one of our heroes not be
TV-pretty, especially given that we have the show unconvincingly trying
to pass people like Brendon off as ugly. But Willow isn't very
interesting here, part of which can be blamed on the acting and part on
the script. She seems either wooden or just spacey, to the point of
coming across as slow-witted. Seems a far cry from Hannigan's
self-referential fountain of geeky charm who'd so quickly learn to
keep her head in a crisis. It doesn't help the actor's cause that
she really doesn't have a whole lot of material to work with. Again,
compare to the aired WTTH, in which Buffy and Willow have two extended
scenes together, including the lengthy one at the Bronze that exists
primarily to give them the appropriate time to get to know each other.
Many viewers, myself included, were thus able to fall in love with Wil
right away. Then, putting her in danger could give the end of the
episode a real driving sense of jeopardy. That's sorely missing from
this version.
The principal also has a different actor, but I like this Flutie quite
a bit too, dripping with what seems like sincerity. He may well
actually have a very strict policy about dead kids stuffed in lockers.
Ah, I miss him in any form.
It's weird seeing the original versions of parts that would be
re-filmed. The "you like send for the _Time-Life_ Series?"
sequence comes to mind. Most of the dialogue is the same (plus
Buffy's cool flip from the balcony and her momentarily intrigued
"zombies, huh?"), but the actors don't always seem quite on their
game (although Gellar is still pretty good). Giles's sense of humor
doesn't get to shine through very much here, making him come off as a
more standard Teacher Figure. Even when the lines are identical, I
feel like SMG's playing her character a little ditzier, more like
what I'm led to believe the original movie did. When describing her
desire for a normal life she seems petty and self-absorbed, rather than
in the final WTTH in which the same lines sound bitter and hurting.
One has to be curious how the finished series would've turned out had
the balance been tilted a little more in this direction. The pre-fight
banter with the vampires also provides a taste of the BTVS that never
was. The Slayer is fighting to rid the world of outdated fashion and
evil, possibly in that order. Yet she's the one with the frightening
hair.
Probably the most awkward transitional scene comes at the Bronze, all
about telling and not showing. Xander describing a guy's outfit in
detail seems especially contrived. Of course, having seen the actual
version of the pilot makes me a little more aware of how much better it
could've been handled.
It's hard to be too critical of the big fight in the school
auditorium since, again, it was never meant to be seen by a large
audience. It would've been understood that, in an actual show, there
would be stunt people and some semblance of production values and
stuff. So I could talk about how this fight is so thoroughly
unconvincing, would be considered too amateurish for a high school's
public-access TV show, etc. But that's entirely expected given the
format. Instead, take a look at the way the one-liners never really
stop, even from the one-note characters. "Hold that thought," says
the vampire as he's dragged down to his Slayer-induced death. At
moments like this, this pilot has a strong sense of what kind of show
it wants to be. Supporting that notion, things that in some cases
wouldn't show up for years make their debut: The Dingoes name, Danny
Strong's character, Harmony, and Xander's "I'll have that
devastating comeback for you tomorrow." Of note is Willow killing
Julie Benz's unnamed vampire; apparently not even ME could have
imagined what an important part of the Buffyverse Darla would end up
being.
They were really obsessed with the SHS lawn, weren't they?
*Everything* happens on the lawn. Don't kids in California ever have
to go inside?
Vampires running away. Didn't see that much in S1.
Supposedly, Angel was scripted to make a brief appearance, and Boreanaz
had already been cast and everything. Wonder why that didn't happen.
Maybe they were having a hard time keeping it under an hour.
So...
One-sentence summary: Gets by on potential.
AOQ rating: Decent
lili...@gmail.com
Hmmm, I was surprised by what you said about NB cause to me he fell
rather flat after seeing this. Hell, one of my first reactions to
watching the pilot was: "Thank god that NB improved so much when they
actually started shooting"
I wanted to like this Willow better, since I don't think that Alyson
Hannigan can act at all, unfortunately, she felt about as flat as NB
did.
Lore
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:The principal also has a different actor, but I like this Flutie quite
:a bit too, dripping with what seems like sincerity. He may well
:actually have a very strict policy about dead kids stuffed in lockers.
:Ah, I miss him in any form.
The great Stephen Tobolowsky. As seen in The
Philadelphia Experiment, Spaceballs, The Grifters, Thelma
& Louise, Basic Instinct, Sneakers, Single White Female,
Hero (the Dustin Hoffman one, not the Jet Li one),
Groundhog Day, The Insider, Memento, Freaky Friday (the
Lindsay Lohan one, not the Jodie Foster one), and many
many more, plus more TV guest appearances than you can
shake a stick at.
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
jil...@hotmail.com
pilot. It takes place between Season 6 and 7, but with some teasing
for 7, so you can't read it. But I'll tell you without spoilers for
either Season what it was about.
The story is that Joss gets his ideas when, while sleeping, his
subconscious makes contact with another universe, and he talks with
Buffy, Angel and all the other characters of that universe.
In this case, Willow's come to talk with him, which she hasn't done for
over six years because he cast Allison to play her and she was really
offended. Not because Allison is a bad actress, but because she is a
slim, pretty girl who has to have bad clothes and work to look like a
geek instead of actually resembling Willow (who was, of course,
overweight as well as having bad clothes and poor hair-style).
peachy ashie passion
> [Please avoid post-S5 spoilers in this thread]
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> [Unaired pilot]: "Welcome To The Hellmouth"
> (or "I know how to pretend to kick you... I think...")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Sorry to flood the NG, but I couldn't resist.
>
> Thanks to (Harmony) Watcher for being the first to point it out. For
> those who aren't in the know, this is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQX0jmjcYQ
>
> So, most of what I've heard suggests that this version of WTTH is a
> demo put together for the network, rather than something that was
> actually meant to ever be aired. A quick look at what kind of show
> BTVS could be. But the WB seems to have considered it part of the
> 13-episode contract. So in fact I have no idea what the deal is. I
> know Joss is ashamed of it, but back when I learned of the existence of
> this thing shortly after starting my review project, I'd hoped that
> either it or the script would've been a special feature on the S1
> DVDs. Glad it ended up making its way to the Internets. Important
> historical document and all.
>
Hey congrats! I've known it was available for better than a year,
and you've made me want to watch when I've never before been tempted to
watch.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Thanks to (Harmony) Watcher for being the first to point it out. For
> > those who aren't in the know, this is at
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQX0jmjcYQ
>
> Hey congrats! I've known it was available for better than a year,
> and you've made me want to watch when I've never before been tempted to
> watch.
Well, enjoy. It's part of all our histories... or something.
-AOQ
John Briggs
> [Please avoid post-S5 spoilers in this thread]
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> [Unaired pilot]: "Welcome To The Hellmouth"
> (or "I know how to pretend to kick you... I think...")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Sorry to flood the NG, but I couldn't resist.
>
> Thanks to (Harmony) Watcher for being the first to point it out. For
> those who aren't in the know, this is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQX0jmjcYQ
>
> So, most of what I've heard suggests that this version of WTTH is a
> demo put together for the network, rather than something that was
> actually meant to ever be aired. A quick look at what kind of show
> BTVS could be.
You really mustn't call it WTTH - just call it the "Unaired Pilot". It is
actually a cut-down version of the "Draft Pilot Script" - which is out ther
somewhere and which you really ought to track down.
> But the WB seems to have considered it part of the
> 13-episode contract.
That's the way they do things: 13 episodes = 12 episodes, plus they pay for
the pilot. Except that in this case, the pilot was shot on a shoe-string -
history doesn't relate who pocketed the difference.
> So in fact I have no idea what the deal is. I
> know Joss is ashamed of it, but back when I learned of the existence
> of this thing shortly after starting my review project, I'd hoped that
> either it or the script would've been a special feature on the S1
> DVDs. Glad it ended up making its way to the Internets. Important
> historical document and all.
I don't think Joss is really ashamed of it - although he has bad memories of
the shoot, the crew were unco-operative. It would be a bit of a contractual
nightmare, getting it cleared for publication on DVDs.
> (without the utterly worthless character of Jesse getting in the way)
That's because Jesse is only required for "The Harvest", and is added to
WTTH because of that.
> At
> moments like this, this pilot has a strong sense of what kind of show
> it wants to be. Supporting that notion, things that in some cases
> wouldn't show up for years make their debut: The Dingoes name, Danny
> Strong's character, Harmony, and Xander's "I'll have that
> devastating comeback for you tomorrow."
No - you're reading things that aren't there. Danny Strong is there
(*because* of his height), but his character isn't - that was only developed
during S2. Harmony is there in S1.
> They were really obsessed with the SHS lawn, weren't they?
> *Everything* happens on the lawn. Don't kids in California ever have
> to go inside?
Lighting issues for the shoot.
> Vampires running away. Didn't see that much in S1.
>
> Supposedly, Angel was scripted to make a brief appearance, and
> Boreanaz had already been cast and everything.
No, no no. Angel is in the Draft Pilot Script - but David Boreanaz famously
wasn't cast until the day before shooting started for the actual series.
> Wonder why that didn't happen. Maybe they were having a hard time keeping
> it under an hour.
An hour? It lasts 26 minutes!
--
John Briggs
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>
> That's because Jesse is only required for "The Harvest", and is added to
> WTTH because of that.
whedon wanted jesse in the opening credits as if a series regular
if you kill a series regular in the first episode
it really makes you wonder about the continued existence of all other characters
same thing with jenny
whedon liked her character but to show just how dangerous angelus was
jenny had to die
and die brutally and senselessly
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> [Please avoid post-S5 spoilers in this thread]
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> [Unaired pilot]: "Welcome To The Hellmouth"
> (or "I know how to pretend to kick you... I think...")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Sorry to flood the NG, but I couldn't resist.
>
> Thanks to (Harmony) Watcher for being the first to point it out. For
> those who aren't in the know, this is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQX0jmjcYQ
>
> So, most of what I've heard suggests that this version of WTTH is a
> demo put together for the network, rather than something that was
> actually meant to ever be aired. A quick look at what kind of show
> BTVS could be. But the WB seems to have considered it part of the
> 13-episode contract.
I don't think that's the case. I've never heard that there was a 13-ep
contract, or that the Unaired Pilot was ever intended to be seen as
anything beyond a presentation for the networks. Pre-internet, its
existance might not have become generally known.
> unfamiliar stuff, like the very amusing exchange in which Xander gives
> Buffy a heads-up on the various groups hanging around the school.
> "Surf's always up somewhere in the world."
Traditional new-girl-in-school scene. I liked Joss's take on it, and
kind of wish it had made the aired version.
I> off with the Cordettes. And Xander is so likable. Nick Brendon
seems
> to have skipped the part where one has to ease into one's role, and
> thus Alexander Harris is the one lead who basically springs into
> existence fully formed.
Cordy and Harmony seemed pretty much Cordy and Harmony, but their
characters weren't too complicated in S1.
> was. The Slayer is fighting to rid the world of outdated fashion and
> evil, possibly in that order. Yet she's the one with the frightening
> hair.
Heh.
> Supposedly, Angel was scripted to make a brief appearance, and Boreanaz
> had already been cast and everything. Wonder why that didn't happen.
> Maybe they were having a hard time keeping it under an hour.
Since it's only 20-odd minutes as-is, I doubt that was it. Anyway, the
script (which is floating around somewhere) has Angel on a motorcycle.
That might have been amusing to see. It also has a scene with Joyce
that ended up in WTTH.
-- Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I don't think that's the case. I've never heard that there was a 13-ep
> contract
I feel like it's almost always a 13-episode contract (or 13 and an
option for 9 more, for fall-premiere shows).
> > Maybe they were having a hard time keeping it under an hour.
>
> Since it's only 20-odd minutes as-is, I doubt that was it.
Hey, I'm supposed to be the one with no sense of humor here.
> Anyway, the
> script (which is floating around somewhere) has Angel on a motorcycle.
> That might have been amusing to see.
Yeah, that's pretty funny. I feel like the Angel we ended up with
wasn't quite the character they had in mind in early S1. The early
stuff seemed like they were going for more bad-boy than sentimental
badass killer.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
John Briggs wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > But the WB seems to have considered it part of the
> > 13-episode contract.
>
> That's the way they do things: 13 episodes = 12 episodes, plus they pay for
> the pilot. Except that in this case, the pilot was shot on a shoe-string -
> history doesn't relate who pocketed the difference.
Okay, that makes sense.
> > Supposedly, Angel was scripted to make a brief appearance, and
> > Boreanaz had already been cast and everything.
>
> No, no no. Angel is in the Draft Pilot Script - but David Boreanaz famously
> wasn't cast until the day before shooting started for the actual series.
Is there more of a story than that as to why it took so long?
> > Wonder why that didn't happen. Maybe they were having a hard time keeping
> > it under an hour.
>
> An hour? It lasts 26 minutes!
Which would be the joke.
-AOQ
Terry
news:1153883824.6...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>> No, no no. Angel is in the Draft Pilot Script - but David Boreanaz
>> famously wasn't cast until the day before shooting started for the
>> actual series.
>
> Is there more of a story than that as to why it took so long?
No, just that the casting director (Marcia Shulman) had a lot of trouble
casting Angel. Apparently, an agent saw David walking his dog and signed
him, leading him to the casting director. He had done some minor TV work
(played Kelly's boyfriend in one episode of Married With Children).
The rest, as they say, is history.
(Info from the Watchers Guide, Vol.1)
-Terry
Apteryx
news:1153807869.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> [Please avoid post-S5 spoilers in this thread]
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> [Unaired pilot]: "Welcome To The Hellmouth"
> (or "I know how to pretend to kick you... I think...")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Sorry to flood the NG, but I couldn't resist.
That sleep thing not working out for you?
>
> The most blatant difference between "Hellmouth"s is Fake Willow,
> played by Rif Regan. This is one of the pilot's biggest weaknesses,
> considering that she's supposed to be one of the stars. On the one
> hand, I appreciate the idea of having one of our heroes not be
> TV-pretty, especially given that we have the show unconvincingly trying
> to pass people like Brendon off as ugly. But Willow isn't very
> interesting here, part of which can be blamed on the acting and part on
> the script. She seems either wooden or just spacey, to the point of
> coming across as slow-witted.
We're so familiar with the "real" Willow now that it's hard to know whether
they could have made it work with Regan. It would have been a completely
different Willow, and to that extent a different show. But even given the
unfairness of comparing the road not travelled with the familiar road
successfully followed, I think the suits got it right this time.
> it wants to be. Supporting that notion, things that in some cases
> wouldn't show up for years make their debut: The Dingoes name, Danny
> Strong's character, Harmony, and Xander's "I'll have that
> devastating comeback for you tomorrow."
Harmony was in the 2nd part of the series opener. The rest I suspect is not
so much fortelling, as the fact that since they didn't use it in WTTH, the
writers knew it was there to be used whenever they needed it later.
> Of note is Willow killing
> Julie Benz's unnamed vampire; apparently not even ME could have
> imagined what an important part of the Buffyverse Darla would end up
> being.
Although she only made halfway through season 1 before being dusted in any
event. Just goes to show that a little thing like death needn't interfere
with a characters career.
> They were really obsessed with the SHS lawn, weren't they?
> *Everything* happens on the lawn. Don't kids in California ever have
> to go inside?
Yeah, but then they'd have to pay for lighting.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Gets by on potential.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Plenty of potential. It might make it as high as Decent. But certainly
mainly of historical interest. All the same, best unaired BtVS pilot, and
best unaired BtVS episode - that I know of...
--
Apteryx
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Mike Zeares wrote:
>
> > I don't think that's the case. I've never heard that there was a 13-ep
> > contract
>
> I feel like it's almost always a 13-episode contract (or 13 and an
> option for 9 more, for fall-premiere shows).
I almost forstalled this reply by saying "and I don't care what the
industry standard practice is, I'm talking specifically about BTVS."
But I thought that might sound snarky. Anyway, I'm pretty certain that
the UP was not part of the season package, since the show had not
actually been picked up by a network when Joss made it. He made it to
sell the show. I believe I read that he actually showed it to FOX
first. Thank Ghu they turned it down.
-- Mike Zeares
John Briggs
>>> (without the utterly worthless character of Jesse getting in the
>>> way)
>>
>> That's because Jesse is only required for "The Harvest", and is
>> added to WTTH because of that.
>
> whedon wanted jesse in the opening credits as if a series regular
> if you kill a series regular in the first episode it really makes you
> wonder about the continued existence of all other characters
Second episode.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> John Briggs wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>> But the WB seems to have considered it part of the
>>> 13-episode contract.
>>
>> That's the way they do things: 13 episodes = 12 episodes, plus they
>> pay for the pilot. Except that in this case, the pilot was shot on
>> a shoe-string - history doesn't relate who pocketed the difference.
>
> Okay, that makes sense.
>
>>> Supposedly, Angel was scripted to make a brief appearance, and
>>> Boreanaz had already been cast and everything.
>>
>> No, no no. Angel is in the Draft Pilot Script - but David Boreanaz
>> famously wasn't cast until the day before shooting started for the
>> actual series.
>
> Is there more of a story than that as to why it took so long?
They took a long time casting Willow (AH wasn't anyone's first choice -
except AH, of course.) They kept giving SMG screen-tests alternately for
Buffy and Cordelia - which is probably why her hair is light-brown in the
Unaired Pilot.
>>> Wonder why that didn't happen. Maybe they were having a hard time
>>> keeping it under an hour.
>>
>> An hour? It lasts 26 minutes!
>
> Which would be the joke.
The Draft Pilot Script is for an hour-long episode.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
The dates tie up - he was cast on 9 September 1996, there was a revised
shooting script dated 10 September 1996: probably the first day of shooting,
probably adding his name to the script.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> Mike Zeares wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think that's the case. I've never heard that there was a
>>> 13-ep contract
>>
>> I feel like it's almost always a 13-episode contract (or 13 and an
>> option for 9 more, for fall-premiere shows).
>
> I almost forstalled this reply by saying "and I don't care what the
> industry standard practice is, I'm talking specifically about BTVS."
> But I thought that might sound snarky. Anyway, I'm pretty certain that
> the UP was not part of the season package, since the show had not
> actually been picked up by a network when Joss made it. He made it to
> sell the show.
All pilots are made to sell shows.* The network usually ends up paying for
the pilot, one way or another.
*"The way they pick TV shows is they make one show. That show's called a
pilot. Then they show that one show to the people who pick shows and on the
strength of that one show, they decide if they wanna make more shows. Some
get chosen and become television programmes. Some don't, become nothin'."
(Pulp Fiction)
--
John Briggs
Clairel
--That's a very interesting distinction.
As of the end of season 5, where would you situate Spike along that
spectrom, AOQ?
Can you picture Spike on a motorcycle? I can!
Maybe some of the ideas Joss originally had for Angel, and scrapped,
later ended up in Spike's characterization.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
I was kicking around a similar idea, that parts of the conceived Angel
character ended up with Spike. As far as bad-boy versus badass killer,
Spike's outward personality is all towards the former (yeah, he also
has that core of thinking that no one really understands him, but it's
emo melodrama compared to souled Angel), but it's not all image and
bluster: he's a killer, and has the history and instincts to prove it.
I can picture either Spike or Angel on a motorcyle (driving, I mean,
not clinging to Wesley's back) shuld the situation arise, but Spike
would be the one who enjoyed it and kept the bike afterward.
-AOQ
cry...@panix.com
> Clairel wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, that's pretty funny. I feel like the Angel we ended up with
> > > wasn't quite the character they had in mind in early S1. The early
> > > stuff seemed like they were going for more bad-boy than sentimental
> > > badass killer.
> >
> > spectrom, AOQ?
> >
> > Can you picture Spike on a motorcycle? I can!
> >
> > Maybe some of the ideas Joss originally had for Angel, and scrapped,
> > later ended up in Spike's characterization.
>
> I was kicking around a similar idea, that parts of the conceived Angel
> character ended up with Spike. As far as bad-boy versus badass killer,
> Spike's outward personality is all towards the former (yeah, he also
> has that core of thinking that no one really understands him, but it's
> emo melodrama compared to souled Angel), but it's not all image and
> bluster: he's a killer, and has the history and instincts to prove it.
Have you seen the movie, AOQ? I'm rot-13'ing this comment in case
you don't want a spoiler for the movie: V guvax ovgf bs Cvxr raqrq
hc va obgu bs gurz, crefbanyyl.
--
-Crystal
(Harmony) Watcher
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153809628....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"I can't believe it! Are you serious? Ah, wait, what am I saying? You
can't."
http://www.heyrick.co.uk/willow/ep3_17/index.html
http://www.heyrick.co.uk/willow/ep3_15/index.html
Would you like an AHAS button? :p
http://www.network23.com/hub/ahas/
--
==Harmony Watcher==
drifter
First episode. Welcome To The Hellmouth/The Harvest was
originally aired as one 2-hour show. It was subsequently broken
into two episodes.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
John Briggs
No. It was written and shot (by two different directors) as two separate
episodes. The network subsequently decided that they wanted a single
double-length premiere. It was always intended to be two episodes, and that
is how it has been shown subsequently - and on the DVDs, of course. The
point at issue is that Joss intended to kill Jesse in the *second* episode.
(There is only one double-length episode which was intended to be such.)
--
John Briggs
Rowan Hawthorn
> I wanted to like this Willow better, since I don't think that Alyson
> Hannigan can act at all, unfortunately, she felt about as flat as NB
> did.
You know you really, seriously, need to stop going off your meds
cold-turkey like that. It can cause all sorts of hallucinations and
delusions...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Clairel
Cvxr -- ohfujn! *So* not important.
Clairel
Clairel
--The part about keeping and enjoying the motorcycle is very astute. I
don't understand your phrase "emo melodrama," though.
Clairel
drifter
Ah, so what was *intended* counts more than what *actually* happened.
OK.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Well, by the "actually happened" logic, "Serenity (Part II)" was the
series finale of _Firefly_. How the creator meant it to be seen
matters more to me.
-AOQ
Opus the Penguin
> Nick Brendon seems
> to have skipped the part where one has to ease into one's role,
> and thus Alexander Harris is the one lead who basically springs
> into existence fully formed. Ironic given how on-and-off the
> writers would be when trying to work with this character over the
> years.
Someone told him to play Chandler Bing as a high schooler and the rest
was a piece of cake.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
>:quite a bit too, dripping with what seems like sincerity. He may
>:well actually have a very strict policy about dead kids stuffed in
>:lockers. Ah, I miss him in any form.
>
> Philadelphia Experiment, Spaceballs, The Grifters, Thelma
> & Louise, Basic Instinct, Sneakers, Single White Female,
> Hero (the Dustin Hoffman one, not the Jet Li one),
> Groundhog Day, The Insider, Memento, Freaky Friday (the
> Lindsay Lohan one, not the Jodie Foster one), and many
> many more, plus more TV guest appearances than you can
> shake a stick at.
He was also the original choice to play Al Borland on _Home
Improvement_. He turned it down due to a prior commitment. (Groundhog
Day, maybe?)
One Bit Shy
news:1153809628....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I wanted to like this Willow better, since I don't think that Alyson
> Hannigan can act at all, unfortunately, she felt about as flat as NB
> did.
I'm pretty sure she's not as flat, but I'm not ready to feel them to find
out.
drifter
Then you should watch the Buffy movie, since Joss intended it to be
much better than it actually was.
And you're completely correct that Serenity (Part II) was the series
finale on network TV.
Mauro
> I wanted to like this Willow better, since I don't think that Alyson
> Hannigan can act at all, unfortunately, she felt about as flat as NB
> did.
I think Alyson Hannigan is a fine actress. She just looks so natural in any
part she's in that people think she's just being herself as opposed to being
the character.
I recall that in Angel, people had the same reaction to Nzl Npxre, ng yrnfg
hagvy Serq orpnzr Vyylevn.
Rowan Hawthorn
Can I have your turn? OH! You meant: not ready feel *NB's*, to - okay,
never mind...
John Briggs
As *actually* shot, and as subsequently broadcast - rather than the first
broadcast version, which was an afterthought. We are shortly to come to a
double-length episode which was always intended to be one episode, and was
premiered as such, but has always been subsequently shown as two episodes.
Which version should be on the DVDs?
--
John Briggs
Arbitrar Of Quality
drifter wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > drifter wrote:
> >> John Briggs wrote:
> >>> drifter wrote:
> >>>> First episode. Welcome To The Hellmouth/The Harvest was
> >>>> originally aired as one 2-hour show. It was subsequently broken
> >>>> into two episodes.
> >>>
> >>> No. It was written and shot (by two different directors) as two
> >>> separate episodes. The network subsequently decided that they
> >>> wanted a single double-length premiere. It was always intended to
> >>> be two episodes, and that is how it has been shown subsequently -
> >>> and on the DVDs, of course. The point at issue is that Joss
> >>> intended to kill Jesse in the *second* episode. (There is only one
> >>> double-length episode which was intended to be such.)
> >>
> >> Ah, so what was *intended* counts more than what *actually* happened.
> >> OK.
> >
> > Well, by the "actually happened" logic, "Serenity (Part II)" was the
> > series finale of _Firefly_. How the creator meant it to be seen
> > matters more to me.
> >
> > -AOQ
>
> Then you should watch the Buffy movie, since Joss intended it to be
> much better than it actually was.
False analogy. The Little Damned Movie was made by a bunch of people
who didn't always agree, and a product came into being. That's the
product that counts. WTTH and TH were also finished products, which
were then put together post-hoc by people who had nothing to do with
their creation.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Clairel wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > Maybe some of the ideas Joss originally had for Angel, and scrapped,
> > > later ended up in Spike's characterization.
> >
> > I was kicking around a similar idea, that parts of the conceived Angel
> > character ended up with Spike. As far as bad-boy versus badass killer,
> > Spike's outward personality is all towards the former (yeah, he also
> > has that core of thinking that no one really understands him, but it's
> > emo melodrama compared to souled Angel), but it's not all image and
> > bluster: he's a killer, and has the history and instincts to prove it.
> >
> >
> > I can picture either Spike or Angel on a motorcyle (driving, I mean,
> > not clinging to Wesley's back) shuld the situation arise, but Spike
> > would be the one who enjoyed it and kept the bike afterward.
>
> --The part about keeping and enjoying the motorcycle is very astute. I
> don't understand your phrase "emo melodrama," though.
Using "emo" as an adjective is a bad habit of mine; it's a fairly
meaningless term reflecting the fact that the singers from emo bands
are often very whiny. But I'm basically trying to talk about the
constrasts, many of which the show has handed directly to us, between
two characters who have some superficial similarities: undead vampire,
seeking some sort of redemption, all tortured and stuff, tends towards
the melodramatic, likes Buffy, etc. Anyway, Spike is the adrenaline
junkie, but like Angel, he has a sensitive/pained side that makes him
feel alone in the world. I just don't want to go too far in that
direction when thinking about him (or at least when drawing
comparisons) since Angel's pain has to do with the fact that he's
living with constant guilt over all the people he's alsughtered and his
attempts to make up for it sometimes just make things worse. Whereas
Spike's hurting inside because the girls he likes won't talk to him.
-AOQ
Clairel
--What, like unrequited love isn't tragic? Sheesh!
Uh, what are "emo bands"?
Whatever they are, you say their singers are whiny; I'd say that Spike
seldom if ever whines. He feels very deeply; but that's not the same.
Clairel
MBangel10 (Melissa)
It's like 'grunge' music for the Y generation - only very whiny with a
lot less talent in the music pool. Basically, it's just another label
thrown across a genre of "emotional" music w/ punk influences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_(music)
One Bit Shy
news:1154106036.9...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Well... I think Spike has a serious self identity problem too. But you're
right that he's not exactly consumed with guilt over his past
transgressions. At least not until The Gift.
OBS
John Briggs
That's not absolutely true - ME would have done the editing together, but
post-hoc and at the request of people who had nothing to do with their
creation. Who was actually responsible for the extra "prologue" is still a
bit of a mystery.
--
John Briggs
George W Harris
<MBan...@gmail.com> wrote:
:
:It's like 'grunge' music for the Y generation - only very whiny with a
:lot less talent in the music pool.
So it's like The Smiths?
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> On 28 Jul 2006 12:26:12 -0700, "MBangel10 (Melissa)"
> <MBan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :It's like 'grunge' music for the Y generation - only very whiny with a
> :lot less talent in the music pool.
>
> So it's like The Smiths?
More like Fallout Boy and HEY! I liked The Smiths.
George W Harris
<mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
Did you ever see the episode of MST3K where
they had Tupperware to keep pop stars from going stale?
They had a giant tupperware container with Morrisey
(played by Mike Nelson) in it.
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Eric Hunter
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> <lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1153809628....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> I wanted to like this Willow better, since I don't think that Alyson
>>> Hannigan can act at all, unfortunately, she felt about as flat as NB
>>> did.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure she's not as flat, but I'm not ready to feel them to
>> find out.
>>
>
> Can I have your turn? OH! You meant: not ready feel *NB's*, to - okay,
> never mind...
No, they actually meant RR (Rif Regan).
Eric.
--
drifter
Now you're making up new rules as to what "counts" as product. Joss
*created* Buffy, the movie and the series. Those who came in between
tinkered, tweaked, and sometimes damaged the finished product, but
they did not *create* Buffy, IMO.
Shuggie
For I am John Briggs, King of Pedants. May all lesser pedants bow before
me!
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
Shuggie
> We are shortly to come to a
> double-length episode which was always intended to be one episode, and was
> premiered as such, but has always been subsequently shown as two episodes.
If you're referring to the S6 premiere then you're wrong about 'always'.
David Fury said that they were written as two episodes but the network
asked for a 'two-hour event' so they were made into one. They were then
re-editted into two separate episodes for other markets (and as you say
subsequent airings).
> Which version should be on the DVDs?
How are we defining 'should' here? We can argue about original intent
(and how far back in the creative process do we go for that anyway?) v
original broadcast or whatever but ultimately the only 'should' that
matters is that Fox 'should' get to decide what's on their DVDs.
John Briggs
> John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> We are shortly to come to a
>> double-length episode which was always intended to be one episode,
>> and was premiered as such, but has always been subsequently shown as
>> two episodes.
>
> If you're referring to the S6 premiere then you're wrong about
> 'always'. David Fury said that they were written as two episodes but
> the network asked for a 'two-hour event' so they were made into one.
Yes, OK - they were originally written as two episodes, by two authors, but
re-worked as a single script.
> They were then re-editted into two separate episodes for other
> markets (and as you say subsequent airings).
Yes, the so-called 'International Version'. It is more likely to be the
other way around: the version for subsequent airings used for other markets.
>> Which version should be on the DVDs?
>
> How are we defining 'should' here? We can argue about original intent
> (and how far back in the creative process do we go for that anyway?) v
> original broadcast or whatever but ultimately the only 'should' that
> matters is that Fox 'should' get to decide what's on their DVDs.
Fox don't have a clue - as you well know, they only put the double-length
episode on the DVDs at the prompting of the BBC Cult Team.
--
John Briggs
Ari
Oh come on, Spike's a total whiny drama queen. How many self-pitying
outbursts has he had already on this show? And the first time he was on
Angel, even there by the end of the episode he was screaming and crying
like a little baby because things didn't go his way. Heh, I think Spike
suffers with a bad case of IMS.
Arbitrar Of Quality
drifter wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > drifter wrote:
> >>> Well, by the "actually happened" logic, "Serenity (Part II)" was the
> >>> series finale of _Firefly_. How the creator meant it to be seen
> >>> matters more to me.
> >>>
> >>> -AOQ
> >>
> >> Then you should watch the Buffy movie, since Joss intended it to be
> >> much better than it actually was.
> >
> > False analogy. The Little Damned Movie was made by a bunch of people
> > who didn't always agree, and a product came into being. That's the
> > product that counts. WTTH and TH were also finished products, which
> > were then put together post-hoc by people who had nothing to do with
> > their creation.
>
> Now you're making up new rules as to what "counts" as product. Joss
> *created* Buffy, the movie and the series. Those who came in between
> tinkered, tweaked, and sometimes damaged the finished product, but
> they did not *create* Buffy, IMO.
No new rules here. In case you haven't noticed, it's impossible to
watch an idea, but it is possible to watch a finished movie or TV show.
That's why I'm drawing a distinction between the product - that being,
say, an episode of BTVS - and what was subsequently done with said
completed film by networks et al.
-AOQ
Shuggie
>>> Which version should be on the DVDs?
>>
>> How are we defining 'should' here? We can argue about original intent
>> (and how far back in the creative process do we go for that anyway?) v
>> original broadcast or whatever but ultimately the only 'should' that
>> matters is that Fox 'should' get to decide what's on their DVDs.
>
> Fox don't have a clue - as you well know, they only put the double-length
> episode on the DVDs at the prompting of the BBC Cult Team.
It's not whether they have a clue or not. They have the rights.
drifter
> drifter wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>> drifter wrote:
>>>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>>>> Well, by the "actually happened" logic, "Serenity (Part II)" was
>>>>> the series finale of _Firefly_. How the creator meant it to be
>>>>> seen matters more to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> -AOQ
>>>>
>>>> Then you should watch the Buffy movie, since Joss intended it to be
>>>> much better than it actually was.
>>>
>>> False analogy. The Little Damned Movie was made by a bunch of
>>> people who didn't always agree, and a product came into being.
>>> That's the product that counts. WTTH and TH were also finished
>>> products, which were then put together post-hoc by people who had
>>> nothing to do with their creation.
>>
>> Now you're making up new rules as to what "counts" as product. Joss
>> *created* Buffy, the movie and the series. Those who came in between
>> tinkered, tweaked, and sometimes damaged the finished product, but
>> they did not *create* Buffy, IMO.
>
> No new rules here. In case you haven't noticed, it's impossible to
> watch an idea, but it is possible to watch a finished movie or TV
> show.
Your phrasing there is kind of insulting.
> That's why I'm drawing a distinction between the product - that
> being, say, an episode of BTVS - and what was subsequently done with
> said completed film by networks et al.
That doesn't
You know what, screw it.
Arbitrar Of Quality
drifter wrote:
> > No new rules here. In case you haven't noticed, it's impossible to
> > watch an idea, but it is possible to watch a finished movie or TV
> > show.
>
> Your phrasing there is kind of insulting.
My aoplogies.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> My aoplogies.
>
> -AOQ
Apologies, even.
-AOQ
drifter
Accetped.
Rowan Hawthorn
Oh. Well, never mind *twice*, then...