AOQ Review 2-21: "Becoming (Part One)"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
(or "The destiny-free hour")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
Well, it's time to end this phase of the story. I'm glad they gave
themselves two episodes to do it, since there's a lot of ending to be
done.
And we take quite a bit of time away from the present to tell Angel's
origin story. Namely, that he used to have those scary sideburns.
Horrors! [Note: Just to show that we in the Quality household know
what's important - Mrs. Quality's first comment on present-day
Angelus during this episode: "seriously, he's so hot I can barely
take it."]
At first I thought the flashback sequences were going to just show us
what we already knew in a superficial manner. Julie Benz makes a
depressingly brief appearance in a scene that doesn't really tell us
anything new, and seeing Angel get his soul doesn't really tell us
anything either. [Note: Although the scene in the teaser led to me
scanning the opening credits eagerly. Yeah, that was definitely Benz.
Good, Seth Green's in this one (about time). Hey, Bianca Lawson,
that's Kendra, right? Cool! And so on...] I was thinking that
maybe they were trying to retell the story for the more casual viewer,
except that the superior Angelus/Drusilla bit in the church would go
over the heads of all except the faithful audience. Besides being a
piece of ghoulish fun, this part reinforces that Drusilla's visions
have real portent, and establishes that they predate the batshit-crazy
thing. All in all, though, I didn't see the point of these scenes at
first.
But then we eventually make it to the twentieth century, and start
providing the immediate backstory for the show. I'd kinda assumed
that Angel had been doing the wise-hermit routine for years prior to
meeting Buffy - instead we learn that Buffy is the _reason_ he's
not still a long-haired rat-eater in self-imposed exile. Cool. And
the fact that he's been stalking Buffy since she was fifteen makes
things between them even creepier, if that were possible (as does the
"my love" from the teaser). Seeing how he got into the hero
business makes me miss be-souled Angel, although I might miss Evil
Angelus even more if he reverted.
Also in the 1996 flashbacks, it's really interesting seeing
pre-series Buffy. Sarah Gellar gives us yet another reason to heap
praise on her by convincingly making her character look much younger in
these scenes, as she is emotionally, if not physically. Maybe it's
the lollipop that does it. But there's no doubt that she's the
same character, especially with dialogue like "I'm destiny-free,
really." The stuff with her and her Watcher, and the stuff with
Angel and Whistler, and the Buffy/Joyce/Voice Of Hank scene are all
things that work perfectly on their own, but also provide the potential
to build on.
[People who've seen the original _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ (the
Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
differently.]
Meanwhile in the present, there's too much ritual and too little fun
going on for my tastes. Yet _another_ demon arises to lead people into
Hell, and way too much time is spent around or talking about the Tomb
Of Alfalfa. Between Giles' attempts at eerie proclamations and
Angel's attempts at eerie proclamations... enough. I want to know
what Spike is up to, but the show doesn't seem inclined to let us
know yet. Still more food for Part II...
Oh yeah, our core cast is in this one too. Xander insists on
continuing to patrol with Buffy (as first established in... _that_
episode... although Xander as Buffy's self-appointed backup is a nice
long-running thing that has roots as far back as "The Harvest.").
This is despite his questionable value in a head-to-head fight. (I
wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?) So our
Slaypack still seems tightly knit, especially in the subsequent
lunchroom scene where they do seem happy to just be hanging out
together giving us a funny scene with Snyder ("Yeah! [A class] where
they teach lunch!"). A few scenes later, they're screaming at each
other.
The basic conflict concerns whether or not to try to give Angel his
soul back (BTW, who else liked the way they teased us by having Buffy
not notice the computer disk the first time?). In the past, Xander's
anti-Angel sentiments have made him just seem dickish rather than
actually presenting his honest opinions. This time, the episode
convinced me that he believes what he's saying. There's not a
simple answer - Buffy actually says "it's not that simple," as
she's been learning over the course of Season Two. And Xander's
regret over Calendar's death, something which he should have in
common with Giles, is what gets the two of them arguing violently.
Because he's acting rather dickish while giving those honest
opinions. Really an interesting scene.
A tangent on everyone's least favorite couple (okay, just mine): this
episode suggests that "Go Fish" marked the final step of the
ongoing transition in X/C dialogue from "fighting" to
"affectionate banter." I mention this because that's totally
what I would have done with the early part of the season had I been
writing their relationship. Have them be horrified by each others'
lifestyles and personalities, but let them start to genuinely and very
obviously enjoy trading verbal barbs during Slaypack meetings. And
that would lead into "What's My Line." Okay, end tangent.
Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
Arts at all? She's lying.
Buffy's scenes with Angelus are nice and tense and stuff, but the key
moment comes when he's so pleased to let her know about the trap -
"and you fall for it every single time!" A tip for anyone planning
to work in serialized TV: a pretty reliable way to get copious AOQ-love
is to have the last story of the season echo the first in some way;
that never gets old for me. On a more mechanical plotting level,
it's kinda cool to see the heroes thwarted by having overestimated
what the villains were capable of (re: Alfalfa).
On to Kendra, as reluctant as I am since it's, well, sad. Her death
is a really shocking moment (more so than Calendar's back in
"Passion," actually), since it's so sudden. (And despite
references to it happening off screen, I don't think we've actually
seen Drusilla kill anyone before.) Which goes to show how much the
show is playing with my head, because bringing a character like that
back so suddenly is basically an invitation to kill her off. But after
seeing her come out of her shell throughout "What's My Line," and
then being allowed to keep on Slayer-ing at the end, _then_ you slice
her throat? Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind
show. Anyway, the scenes we did get between her and Buffy were a
treat; they have (or had) such great chemistry. I miss Kendra
already...
"This is really stupid but I laughed anyway" moment(s):
- Willow's reaction to hearing about the "chair shortage."
- Mr. Pointy.
I don't know who was holding the gun at the end. I have a guess,
but... anyway, I've come to the point where I'm inclined to trust
the show if it tells me that something's a life-changing moment, so
I'm quite excited to see the conclusion. After all the times I've
said that I don't assign episode ratings on a curve or relative to
anything else, I've come to realize that's not quite true. I may
give the first part of a two-parter an unusually high rating even if it
had its blah moments. That's because it has two jobs to do besides
pure entertainment value: it has to provide adequate setup so that
another episode can be built off it, and it has to leave the viewer
really wanting to see the followup. Well, done and done. Take my
"Excellent." Please.
But how the hell are they going to wrap this up in one hour?
So...
One-sentence summary: It fascinates, and it captivates, and it gives my
soul no peace.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good
8) "The Dark Age" - Good
9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
11) "Ted" - Excellent
12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
13) "Surprise" - Decent
14) "Innocence" - Excellent
15) "Phases" - Decent
16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
17) "Passion" - Good
18) "Killed By Death" - Decent
19) "I Only Have Eyes For You" - Good
20) "Go Fish" - Good
21) "Becoming (Part One)" - Excellent]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
> differently.]
buffy is kristy not sarah
buffy is a high school senior not a freshman
they show more of her being a cheerleader
they have a different actor playing her first watcher
though i think hes still named merrick
movie merrick is more old fashioned like a giles with an american accent
tv merrick looks more like business man or car salesman
movie buffy parents (dont remember if theyre named) dont fight
theyre pretty much absent from the movie (even when on screen)
and from buffys life
> Meanwhile in the present, there's too much ritual and too little fun
> going on for my tastes. Yet _another_ demon arises to lead people into
part i is the exposition and the set up
the characters are introduced and put into play
> back so suddenly is basically an invitation to kill her off. But after
> seeing her come out of her shell throughout "What's My Line," and
> then being allowed to keep on Slayer-ing at the end, _then_ you slice
> her throat? Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind
he cannot kill off buffy without renaming the show
and killing off xander or giles or angel or willow or joyce
would be a major dislocation and not very feasible
so to remind you this a show where people are dying
he can take less central characters like kendra or jenny
and kill them
> show. Anyway, the scenes we did get between her and Buffy were a
> treat; they have (or had) such great chemistry. I miss Kendra
> already...
but on this show dying doesnt mean you never appear again
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
> (or "The destiny-free hour")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
> differently.]
It actually tells the story well... (sorry, sorry. I saw the original
movie soon after its release, and because of that I didn't even bother
to check out the show until sometime in the second or third season.)
>
> Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
> Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
> laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
> the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
> Arts at all? She's lying.
Willow? Lying? Sweet, guileless Willow, lying? **Like a rug***...
(Just to clarify, Willow is absolutely my favorite character in the
series, start to finish. In my top two or three favorite characters ever.)
> her throat? Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind
> show.
*Now* you've got it.
>
> One-sentence summary: It fascinates, and it captivates, and it gives my
> soul no peace.
...and it ain't over, yet...
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Bingo.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> [People who've seen the original _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ (the
> Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
> differently.]
The movie had the first meeting (where words are exchanged, they see
each other previously in a mall) take place in the school gym, in which
Merrick approaches Buffy after watching her do some cartwheels and stuff
during cheerleader practice. He tells her she's the Chosen One,
destined to slay the vampires. She asks him if he talks to Elvis too.
He eventually convinces her (sort of) by telling her about her dreams.
They agree to meet later, but she blows it off. He comes back the next
day, this time in a locker room, which Buffy thinks is very uncool.
She's so not the girl he's looking for. He throws a knife at her head.
She catches it, and gets mad at him. He points out that only the Chosen
One could have caught the knife. She still has trouble getting past the
"You threw. A knife. At my head!" part, and punches him in the nose
(without breaking a nail.) She finally agrees to meet him in a grave
yard. Vampires rise, she makes her fist slay. No dusting, the movie
vamps leave bodies behind.
There was none of the stuff with fighting parents. Buffy's mom in the
movie is even more clueless than Joyce.
(At one point she's leaving the house, where Buffy and her boyfriend are
watching TV, and calls out "Goodnight Bobby!"
"She thinks my name is Bobby?" asks the boyfriend.
"It's possible she thinks *my* name is Bobby," says Buffy.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Buffy's scenes with Angelus are nice and tense and stuff, but the key
> moment comes when he's so pleased to let her know about the trap -
> "and you fall for it every single time!" A tip for anyone planning
> to work in serialized TV: a pretty reliable way to get copious AOQ-love
> is to have the last story of the season echo the first in some way;
> that never gets old for me.
Also, Giles revealing that he's got an Orb of Thesulah, that he's using
as a paperweight, is a nice harking back to 'Passion' where the magic
shop guy tells Jenny that he mostly sells them as new age paperweights
these days.
MARY KIRBY DIAZ
new character.
Mike Zeares
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
> > Arts at all? She's lying.
>
> Willow? Lying? Sweet, guileless Willow, lying? **Like a rug***...
Heh. I was going to compliment him on his perceptiveness.
> > her throat? Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind
> > show.
>
> *Now* you've got it.
Yep. He's definitely learned the most important lesson. One of us,
one of us.
[this is AoQ]
> > One-sentence summary: It fascinates, and it captivates, and it gives my
> > soul no peace.
Oh yeah, he's hooked.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Meanwhile in the present, there's too much ritual and too little fun
> going on for my tastes.
I do like the way Spike takes the piss. "Some-one wasn't wor-thy."
Also, "It's a big rock. I can't wait to tell my friends. They don't
have a rock this big."
> wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?)
Don't have proof, but I'd bet on it. Kim's "What's the sitch?"
catch-phrase is from WTTH, and the character in general is very
Buffy-like. I see KP as the animated Buffy that we never got.
> Because he's acting rather dickish while giving those honest
> opinions. Really an interesting scene.
That's Xander in a nutshell. It's also a good example of a BtVS
argument scene. The show doesn't make it easy to pick sides.
> Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
> Willow's dabbling in magic is leading.
To hugs and puppies?
> But how the hell are they going to wrap this up in one hour?
Heh.
-- Mike Zeares
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
>(or "The destiny-free hour")
>Writer: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
>
>Well, it's time to end this phase of the story. I'm glad they gave
>themselves two episodes to do it, since there's a lot of ending to be
>done.
And almost none of it feels like stretching to fill the time. So much
goes on, one would think Joss would have liked to do it in 3 parts.
I'm going to keep my comments limited since I watched both parts, and
while I'm sure AOQ has by now (how can anyone resist not immediately
popping part 2 in?) maybe someone else hasn't.
>
>And we take quite a bit of time away from the present to tell Angel's
>origin story. Namely, that he used to have those scary sideburns.
>Horrors! [Note: Just to show that we in the Quality household know
>what's important - Mrs. Quality's first comment on present-day
>Angelus during this episode: "seriously, he's so hot I can barely
>take it."]
Really. I often wondered.
>
>At first I thought the flashback sequences were going to just show us
>what we already knew in a superficial manner. Julie Benz makes a
>depressingly brief appearance in a scene that doesn't really tell us
>anything new, and seeing Angel get his soul doesn't really tell us
>anything either. [Note: Although the scene in the teaser led to me
>scanning the opening credits eagerly. Yeah, that was definitely Benz.
>Good, Seth Green's in this one (about time). Hey, Bianca Lawson,
>that's Kendra, right? Cool! And so on...]
Well, it did give rise to some discussion as to whether drunk
carousing human "Angel" "asked for it" such that Angel has a greater
reason to feel the guilt for what Angelus did.
Also, it's Darla! Not only can Joss kill 'em unexpectedly, he can
figure ways to bring gone characters back through flashbacks.
>I was thinking that
>maybe they were trying to retell the story for the more casual viewer,
>except that the superior Angelus/Drusilla bit in the church would go
>over the heads of all except the faithful audience. Besides being a
>piece of ghoulish fun, this part reinforces that Drusilla's visions
>have real portent, and establishes that they predate the batshit-crazy
>thing. All in all, though, I didn't see the point of these scenes at
>first.
But is Landau growing on you? Do you see what delicious bits of
business she throws in? Or is directed to throw in? I remain Dru
smitten.
>
>But then we eventually make it to the twentieth century, and start
>providing the immediate backstory for the show. I'd kinda assumed
>that Angel had been doing the wise-hermit routine for years prior to
>meeting Buffy - instead we learn that Buffy is the _reason_ he's
>not still a long-haired rat-eater in self-imposed exile. Cool. And
>the fact that he's been stalking Buffy since she was fifteen makes
>things between them even creepier, if that were possible (as does the
>"my love" from the teaser). Seeing how he got into the hero
>business makes me miss be-souled Angel, although I might miss Evil
>Angelus even more if he reverted.
You'll have a lot of time to ponder these things.
>
>Also in the 1996 flashbacks, it's really interesting seeing
>pre-series Buffy. Sarah Gellar gives us yet another reason to heap
>praise on her
There were so many, many reasons to heap that praise upon her.
>by convincingly making her character look much younger in
>these scenes, as she is emotionally, if not physically. Maybe it's
>the lollipop that does it. But there's no doubt that she's the
>same character, especially with dialogue like "I'm destiny-free,
>really." The stuff with her and her Watcher, and the stuff with
>Angel and Whistler, and the Buffy/Joyce/Voice Of Hank scene are all
>things that work perfectly on their own, but also provide the potential
>to build on.
I've always found Whistler a troubling note. Suddenly, and for the
first time, IIRC, we learn there are "good" demons and someone off
screen calling certain shots for the forces of "good.". Whistler takes
on the aspect of a deus ex machina, and I still feel it's a negative
in any ways.
Also nice to see a tad more how Buffy was almost Cordelia at Hemery
High pre-Watcher.
>
>[People who've seen the original _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ (the
>Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
>differently.]
I see others have. The DVD is available for about $10. Probably worth
it. I haven't seen it myself in a while:
Other tidbits: Chosen Ones have a birthmark on their chests. Buffy's
folks had her surgically removed which is why Buffy is discovered so
"old." She also gets like menstrual cramps when a vampire is near.
I'm not certain, but I think the outfit SMG wears for her first kill
is either the same or very similar to the one KS wore in the movie.
>
>Meanwhile in the present, there's too much ritual and too little fun
>going on for my tastes. Yet _another_ demon arises to lead people into
>Hell, and way too much time is spent around or talking about the Tomb
>Of Alfalfa. Between Giles' attempts at eerie proclamations and
>Angel's attempts at eerie proclamations... enough. I want to know
>what Spike is up to, but the show doesn't seem inclined to let us
>know yet. Still more food for Part II...
As others noted, Spike gets some great lines here and Marsters is
enjoying himself immensely. "It's a big rock."
>
>Oh yeah, our core cast is in this one too. Xander insists on
>continuing to patrol with Buffy (as first established in... _that_
>episode... although Xander as Buffy's self-appointed backup is a nice
>long-running thing that has roots as far back as "The Harvest.").
>This is despite his questionable value in a head-to-head fight. (I
>wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?) So our
>Slaypack still seems tightly knit, especially in the subsequent
>lunchroom scene where they do seem happy to just be hanging out
>together giving us a funny scene with Snyder ("Yeah! [A class] where
>they teach lunch!"). A few scenes later, they're screaming at each
>other
And points for Cordelia telling Xander he has "fish hands."
.
>
>The basic conflict concerns whether or not to try to give Angel his
>soul back (BTW, who else liked the way they teased us by having Buffy
>not notice the computer disk the first time?). In the past, Xander's
>anti-Angel sentiments have made him just seem dickish rather than
>actually presenting his honest opinions. This time, the episode
>convinced me that he believes what he's saying. There's not a
>simple answer - Buffy actually says "it's not that simple," as
>she's been learning over the course of Season Two.
There's always this problem with Xander. You can't tell what he
believes, how much of it is still unrequited love/lust for Buffy, how
much of it is genuine, how much of it is just the kid who's sick of
being the one picked on and lashing out.
>And Xander's
>regret over Calendar's death, something which he should have in
>common with Giles, is what gets the two of them arguing violently.
>Because he's acting rather dickish while giving those honest
>opinions. Really an interesting scene.
We all hate Angelus for killing Jenny, Xander refuses to deal with
Angel NOT being Angelus. Considering all else he's learned, that
stubbornness is coming from somewhere other than logical thinking.
Xander ain't no Vulcan. I'm just saying.
>
>A tangent on everyone's least favorite couple (okay, just mine): this
>episode suggests that "Go Fish" marked the final step of the
>ongoing transition in X/C dialogue from "fighting" to
>"affectionate banter." I mention this because that's totally
>what I would have done with the early part of the season had I been
>writing their relationship. Have them be horrified by each others'
>lifestyles and personalities, but let them start to genuinely and very
>obviously enjoy trading verbal barbs during Slaypack meetings. And
>that would lead into "What's My Line." Okay, end tangent.
>
>Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
>Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
>laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
>the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
>Arts at all? She's lying.
I missed that claim. Someone? She says:
"Willow: Well, I’ve been going through her files and, and
researching the black arts, for fun, or educational fun,
and I may be able to work this."
>
>Buffy's scenes with Angelus are nice and tense and stuff, but the key
>moment comes when he's so pleased to let her know about the trap -
>"and you fall for it every single time!" A tip for anyone planning
>to work in serialized TV: a pretty reliable way to get copious AOQ-love
>is to have the last story of the season echo the first in some way;
>that never gets old for me. On a more mechanical plotting level,
>it's kinda cool to see the heroes thwarted by having overestimated
>what the villains were capable of (re: Alfalfa).
Agreed. BTW, I also liked when she referred to "Al Franken."
And it was neat to have Angelus echo the viewer's thoughts about "it's
a trap - again!"
>
>On to Kendra, as reluctant as I am since it's, well, sad. Her death
>is a really shocking moment (more so than Calendar's back in
>"Passion," actually), since it's so sudden. (And despite
>references to it happening off screen, I don't think we've actually
>seen Drusilla kill anyone before.) Which goes to show how much the
>show is playing with my head, because bringing a character like that
>back so suddenly is basically an invitation to kill her off. But after
>seeing her come out of her shell throughout "What's My Line," and
>then being allowed to keep on Slayer-ing at the end, _then_ you slice
>her throat? Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind
>show.
No it isn't. But it was never easy to convince others.
>Anyway, the scenes we did get between her and Buffy were a
>treat; they have (or had) such great chemistry. I miss Kendra
>already...
(ROT13: Vagrerfgvat gung gur boivbhf dhrfgvba vf abg envfrq urer,
creuncf orpnhfr fcbvyrq, creuncf orpnhfr NBD va rssrpg rpubrf jung
znal gubhtug Xraqen n syhxr naq ab bar gubhtug nobhg nabgure Pubfra
Bar fubjvat hc)
>
>"This is really stupid but I laughed anyway" moment(s):
>- Willow's reaction to hearing about the "chair shortage."
>- Mr. Pointy.
>
>I don't know who was holding the gun at the end. I have a guess,
>but... anyway, I've come to the point where I'm inclined to trust
>the show if it tells me that something's a life-changing moment, so
>I'm quite excited to see the conclusion. After all the times I've
>said that I don't assign episode ratings on a curve or relative to
>anything else, I've come to realize that's not quite true. I may
>give the first part of a two-parter an unusually high rating even if it
>had its blah moments. That's because it has two jobs to do besides
>pure entertainment value: it has to provide adequate setup so that
>another episode can be built off it, and it has to leave the viewer
>really wanting to see the followup. Well, done and done. Take my
>"Excellent." Please.
>
>But how the hell are they going to wrap this up in one hour?
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: It fascinates, and it captivates, and it gives my
>soul no peace.
>
>AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Yes.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> (ROT13: Vagrerfgvat gung gur boivbhf dhrfgvba vf abg envfrq urer,
> creuncf orpnhfr fcbvyrq, creuncf orpnhfr NBD va rssrpg rpubrf jung
> znal gubhtug Xraqen n syhxr naq ab bar gubhtug nobhg nabgure Pubfra
> Bar fubjvat hc)
Be znlor orpnhfr Qhfuxh'f ebyr vf snzbhf rabhtu gung ur nyernql xabjf
nabgure Fynlre jvyy or pbzvat nybat riraghnyyl.
Xvaqn yvxr lbh xabj Natry jvyy or onpx rira vs lbh'er jngpuvat gurfr
guvatf sbe gur svefg gvzr.
BTR1701
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
> > (or "The destiny-free hour")
> > Writer: Joss Whedon
> > Director: Joss Whedon
> >
> > [People who've seen the original _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ (the
> > Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
> > differently.]
>
> It actually tells the story well... (sorry, sorry. I saw the original
> movie soon after its release, and because of that I didn't even bother
> to check out the show until sometime in the second or third season.)
>
> >
> > Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
> > Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
> > laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
> > the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
> > Arts at all? She's lying.
>
> Willow? Lying? Sweet, guileless Willow, lying? **Like a rug***...
Exactly. She lies well because she's so cute doing it.
> (Just to clarify, Willow is absolutely my favorite character in the
> series, start to finish. In my top two or three favorite characters ever.)
Just for the record, mine would be Faith.
Bill Reid
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141014150....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
> (or "The destiny-free hour")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> - Willow's reaction to hearing about the "chair shortage."
Funny cuz it's true. I remember years ago when I was a teenager
at a party. A certain teenaged boy was sitting in a piece of plastic
lawn furniture out on the patio, and on his lap was this ridiculously
buxom blond 15-year-old girl who lived at the house where the
party was at. Her father comes out, sees the scene, and says,
"Those chairs can't take the weight of two people, don't sit in
them like that." So they moved to the lawn, where she kind
of straddle-sat on top of him. Dad comes out again, and says,
"Honey, that's newly-seeded grass! Don't lay on it like that!"
> - Mr. Pointy.
>
You never know what characters will make repeated appearances
in the show...
> I don't know who was holding the gun at the end.
Mr. Handy.
> Take my
> "Excellent." Please.
>
Don't bogart those "Excellents".
> But how the hell are they going to wrap this up in one hour?
>
Actually, more like 42 minutes, not counting commercials, credits,
etc. They COULD wrap it up by just having the guy shoot Buffy,
would only take a few seconds for her writhing death scene, bam,
end of series, she died a hero...WHOOOOPS!!! You said
"No spoilers", sorry about that...
---
William Ernest Reid
Espen Schjønberg
> Just for the record, mine would be Faith.
Well, AOQ haven't seen here yet...
Ohg V nz fb jvgu lbh, zna. Gur npgerff, gur punenpgre... V nz fgvyy
qernzvat bs gurz znxvat n zbivr nobhg ure, ohg gung jvyy arire unccra...
--
Espen
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The movie had the first meeting (where words are exchanged, they see
> each other previously in a mall) take place in the school gym, in which
> Merrick approaches Buffy after watching her do some cartwheels and stuff
> during cheerleader practice. He tells her she's the Chosen One,
> destined to slay the vampires. She asks him if he talks to Elvis too.
> He eventually convinces her (sort of) by telling her about her dreams.
> They agree to meet later, but she blows it off. He comes back the next
> day, this time in a locker room, which Buffy thinks is very uncool.
> She's so not the girl he's looking for. He throws a knife at her head.
> She catches it, and gets mad at him. He points out that only the Chosen
> One could have caught the knife. She still has trouble getting past the
> "You threw. A knife. At my head!" part, and punches him in the nose
> (without breaking a nail.) She finally agrees to meet him in a grave
> yard. Vampires rise, she makes her fist slay. No dusting, the movie
> vamps leave bodies behind.
>
> There was none of the stuff with fighting parents. Buffy's mom in the
> movie is even more clueless than Joyce.
>
> (At one point she's leaving the house, where Buffy and her boyfriend are
> watching TV, and calls out "Goodnight Bobby!"
>
> "She thinks my name is Bobby?" asks the boyfriend.
>
> "It's possible she thinks *my* name is Bobby," says Buffy.)
Thanks.
-AOQ
Carlos Moreno
>>(Just to clarify, Willow is absolutely my favorite character in the
>>series, start to finish. In my top two or three favorite characters ever.)
>
> Just for the record, mine would be XXXXX.
FCBVYREF, FCBVYREF!!!
Snvgu fubjf hc ng fbzr cbvag naq bar unf ab vqrn vs vg vf tbvat
gb or n ybat-ynfgvat punenpgre be abg -- qvfpybfvat guvf xvaq bs
tvirf njnl zber guna vg fubhyq!!
Va n enaqbz guernq, bar vf abg fhccbfrq gb or pnershy sbe
fcbvyref (gur frevrf raqrq nyernql), ohg va guvf cnegvphyne
pnfr, jr xabj gung gur guernq'f bevtvangbe vf n crefba gung vf
jngpuvat gur fubj sbe gur svefg gvzr, fb: ab fcbvyref!!
Carlos
--
KenM47
IAWTP We are trying to let the unspoiled or just semi-spoiled stay
that way. Even oblique references should be avoided. Just some
courtesy.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Scythe Matters
> Sarah Gellar gives us yet another reason to heap
> praise on her by convincingly making her character look much younger in
> these scenes, as she is emotionally, if not physically.
It's a continuing mystery of the universe that Gellar is regularly
capable of real excellence in this series, and yet does so little of
consequence in any of her other work. Part of it is the writing, of
course, and part of it is that a rather dismaying portion of her
non-Buffy work is fluff of one form or another, but I've concluded that
Buffy was a role that Gellar was somehow uniquely suited to play, and
that it is entirely possible that her best work is now behind her. I
hope that's not true, for her sake, but the evidence is mounting.
> Meanwhile in the present, there's too much ritual and too little fun
> going on for my tastes. Yet _another_ demon arises to lead people into
> Hell
No leading. He just stands there, and the people go to Hell whether they
want to or not.
> This is despite his questionable value in a head-to-head fight. (I
> wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?)
It would be very hard to argue that KP *doesn't* owe a rather large debt
to BTVS.
> So our
> Slaypack still seems tightly knit, especially in the subsequent
> lunchroom scene where they do seem happy to just be hanging out
> together giving us a funny scene with Snyder ("Yeah! [A class] where
> they teach lunch!"). A few scenes later, they're screaming at each
> other.
The counterpoint is key. We don't care as much about Whistler's dire
warnings because they don't mangle a relationship we care about.
> In the past, Xander's
> anti-Angel sentiments have made him just seem dickish rather than
> actually presenting his honest opinions. This time, the episode
> convinced me that he believes what he's saying. There's not a
> simple answer - Buffy actually says "it's not that simple," as
> she's been learning over the course of Season Two. And Xander's
> regret over Calendar's death, something which he should have in
> common with Giles, is what gets the two of them arguing violently.
> Because he's acting rather dickish while giving those honest
> opinions. Really an interesting scene.
You see this very clearly, in my opinion. Xander is both right and
wrong, both a "true friend" who tells someone what she needs to (rather
than wants to) hear, and a jackass whose motivations may or may not be
above reproach.
In other words, as we've discussed through many of your reviews, he's a
flawed character...which makes him so much more interesting.
> Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
> Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
> laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
> the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
> Arts at all? She's lying.
And here we have continutity from "IRYJ" and "Ted," etc. Willow is an
overwhelmingly sympathetic character and almost universally beloved in
fandom, but they're going to some rather specific pains here and
elsewhere to point out that underneath all that sweetness and
vunerability is something harder...and a little darker. But it's being
developed very slowly, so it sneaks up on a lot of people.
> On to Kendra, as reluctant as I am since it's, well, sad. Her death
> is a really shocking moment (more so than Calendar's back in
> "Passion," actually), since it's so sudden.
It also flies a bit in the face of the easier TV convention, which they
deliberately embraced in "What's My Line" -- the sudden appearance of
the deus ex machina (in this case, Slayer #2) to save the day -- and now
subvert. It would be very enticing for the writers, and very easy, to
have recourse to another Slayer were things to start going very badly
for Buffy. In fact, too easy. But the prophecy does only mention a
Chosen *One*, and this is a balance that has to be restored. (Of course,
it also has to happen because, as you know from part II, Buffy needs to
be made to be alone in every possible way.)
> Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind show.
This is also not the last time you'll notice this.
> I've come to the point where I'm inclined to trust
> the show if it tells me that something's a life-changing moment
Ah, if it were only true (re: your next review).
> One-sentence summary: It fascinates, and it captivates, and it gives my
> soul no peace.
No bonus points for dragging out obscure Rush lyrics.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Unquestionably.
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Vs ur qbrf nfx gur dhrfgvba, V'z nyy frg gb dhbgr Wbff'f nafjre gb vg:
"Jr'er tbvat gb yrg vg yvr. Jr yvxr gur bar...va gur raq, gurer
fubhyq or bayl bar."
KenM47
>In article <btr1702-DABED0...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <oce502h2ps5dt2s8q...@4ax.com>,
>> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> > (ROT13: Vagrerfgvat gung gur boivbhf dhrfgvba vf abg envfrq urer,
>> > creuncf orpnhfr fcbvyrq, creuncf orpnhfr NBD va rssrpg rpubrf jung
>> > znal gubhtug Xraqen n syhxr naq ab bar gubhtug nobhg nabgure Pubfra
>> > Bar fubjvat hc)
>>
>>
>> Be znlor orpnhfr Qhfuxh'f ebyr vf snzbhf rabhtu gung ur nyernql xabjf
>> nabgure Fynlre jvyy or pbzvat nybat riraghnyyl.
>>
>> Xvaqn yvxr lbh xabj Natry jvyy or onpx rira vs lbh'er jngpuvat gurfr
>> guvatf sbe gur svefg gvzr.
>
>Vs ur qbrf nfx gur dhrfgvba, V'z nyy frg gb dhbgr Wbff'f nafjre gb vg:
>
> "Jr'er tbvat gb yrg vg yvr. Jr yvxr gur bar...va gur raq, gurer
>fubhyq or bayl bar."
Yes. Absolutely! :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
> (or "The destiny-free hour")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Well, it's time to end this phase of the story. I'm glad they gave
> themselves two episodes to do it, since there's a lot of ending to be
> done.
>
> And we take quite a bit of time away from the present to tell Angel's
> origin story. Namely, that he used to have those scary sideburns.
> Horrors! [Note: Just to show that we in the Quality household know
> what's important - Mrs. Quality's first comment on present-day
> Angelus during this episode: "seriously, he's so hot I can barely
> take it."]
At this point, I was STILL waiting to see if he could act. This ep did
nothing to reassure me.
> At first I thought the flashback sequences were going to just show us
> what we already knew in a superficial manner. Julie Benz makes a
> depressingly brief appearance in a scene that doesn't really tell us
> anything new,
Nothing new? For the first time, we fully (on first viewing)
understsand the Darla / Angel connection (unless I'm totally mistaken).
If I'm mistaken, please let me know.
and seeing Angel get his soul doesn't really tell us
> anything either. [Note: Although the scene in the teaser led to me
> scanning the opening credits eagerly. Yeah, that was definitely Benz.
> Good, Seth Green's in this one (about time). Hey, Bianca Lawson,
> that's Kendra, right? Cool! And so on...] I was thinking that
> maybe they were trying to retell the story for the more casual viewer,
> except that the superior Angelus/Drusilla bit in the church would go
> over the heads of all except the faithful audience. Besides being a
> piece of ghoulish fun, this part reinforces that Drusilla's visions
> have real portent, and establishes that they predate the batshit-crazy
> thing. All in all, though, I didn't see the point of these scenes at
> first.
I always felt the scenes to be important in quite a practical way. For
a show that is based sole on myth, lore and fantasy, it was not to see
it create it's own history and it's own base. Something that a lot of
serious, button-down shows don't do even today.
Also nice Angel/Dru action showing that at least he's consistant when
it comes to mind games.
> But then we eventually make it to the twentieth century, and start
> providing the immediate backstory for the show. I'd kinda assumed
> that Angel had been doing the wise-hermit routine for years prior to
> meeting Buffy - instead we learn that Buffy is the _reason_ he's
> not still a long-haired rat-eater in self-imposed exile. Cool. And
> the fact that he's been stalking Buffy since she was fifteen makes
> things between them even creepier, if that were possible (as does the
> "my love" from the teaser). Seeing how he got into the hero
> business makes me miss be-souled Angel, although I might miss Evil
> Angelus even more if he reverted.
> Also in the 1996 flashbacks, it's really interesting seeing
> pre-series Buffy. Sarah Gellar gives us yet another reason to heap
> praise on her by convincingly making her character look much younger in
> these scenes, as she is emotionally, if not physically. Maybe it's
> the lollipop that does it. But there's no doubt that she's the
> same character, especially with dialogue like "I'm destiny-free,
> really." The stuff with her and her Watcher, and the stuff with
> Angel and Whistler, and the Buffy/Joyce/Voice Of Hank scene are all
> things that work perfectly on their own, but also provide the potential
> to build on.
Also a very nice twist inserting some pre-divorce real life issues into
the fantasy slayer's life. Keeps the show grounded in the "real
world".
> [People who've seen the original _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ (the
> Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
> differently.]
I've blocked it out of my mind retaining only the understanding that it
is the movie that drove me to the series. I watched to see how long it
would take before the little "stupid vampire series" flopped.
> Meanwhile in the present, there's too much ritual and too little fun
> going on for my tastes. Yet _another_ demon arises to lead people into
> Hell, and way too much time is spent around or talking about the Tomb
> Of Alfalfa. Between Giles' attempts at eerie proclamations and
> Angel's attempts at eerie proclamations... enough. I want to know
> what Spike is up to, but the show doesn't seem inclined to let us
> know yet. Still more food for Part II...
Will have more on Dru later. It was nice to see exactly where all of
this was heading. Angel goes bad. But to what end...... You had to
know that the simple killin' of innocent people wasn't enough. This is
a fantasy show after all.
> Oh yeah, our core cast is in this one too. Xander insists on
> continuing to patrol with Buffy (as first established in... _that_
> episode... although Xander as Buffy's self-appointed backup is a nice
> long-running thing that has roots as far back as "The Harvest.").
> This is despite his questionable value in a head-to-head fight. (I
> wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?) So our
> Slaypack still seems tightly knit, especially in the subsequent
> lunchroom scene where they do seem happy to just be hanging out
> together giving us a funny scene with Snyder ("Yeah! [A class] where
> they teach lunch!"). A few scenes later, they're screaming at each
> other.
Can't say much for Kim Possible, but Xander, at least in this scene
reminds me of that dear close friend with absolutely no communication
skills at all. You know what he's saying and why, but you just wish he
had a more diplomatic way of saying it. He has a point, he just comes
off sounding like such a JERK!!
> The basic conflict concerns whether or not to try to give Angel his
> soul back (BTW, who else liked the way they teased us by having Buffy
> not notice the computer disk the first time?). In the past, Xander's
> anti-Angel sentiments have made him just seem dickish rather than
> actually presenting his honest opinions.
No comment, yet.
This time, the episode
> convinced me that he believes what he's saying. There's not a
> simple answer - Buffy actually says "it's not that simple," as
> she's been learning over the course of Season Two. And Xander's
> regret over Calendar's death, something which he should have in
> common with Giles, is what gets the two of them arguing violently.
> Because he's acting rather dickish while giving those honest
> opinions. Really an interesting scene.
>
> A tangent on everyone's least favorite couple (okay, just mine): this
> episode suggests that "Go Fish" marked the final step of the
> ongoing transition in X/C dialogue from "fighting" to
> "affectionate banter." I mention this because that's totally
> what I would have done with the early part of the season had I been
> writing their relationship. Have them be horrified by each others'
> lifestyles and personalities, but let them start to genuinely and very
> obviously enjoy trading verbal barbs during Slaypack meetings. And
> that would lead into "What's My Line." Okay, end tangent.
>
> Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
> Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
> laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
> the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
> Arts at all? She's lying.
Pretty obvious and straight forward. I don't even think the writers
are trying to convince anyone that she doesn't enjoy the idea. Also,
they've done a great job of setting Giles as the voice of warning from
TDA. Nice "opposition" to see will as possibly where Giles was at that
age.
> Buffy's scenes with Angelus are nice and tense and stuff, but the key
> moment comes when he's so pleased to let her know about the trap -
> "and you fall for it every single time!" A tip for anyone planning
> to work in serialized TV: a pretty reliable way to get copious AOQ-love
> is to have the last story of the season echo the first in some way;
> that never gets old for me. On a more mechanical plotting level,
> it's kinda cool to see the heroes thwarted by having overestimated
> what the villains were capable of (re: Alfalfa).
>
> On to Kendra, as reluctant as I am since it's, well, sad. Her death
> is a really shocking moment (more so than Calendar's back in
> "Passion," actually), since it's so sudden. (And despite
> references to it happening off screen, I don't think we've actually
> seen Drusilla kill anyone before.) Which goes to show how much the
> show is playing with my head, because bringing a character like that
> back so suddenly is basically an invitation to kill her off. But after
> seeing her come out of her shell throughout "What's My Line," and
> then being allowed to keep on Slayer-ing at the end, _then_ you slice
> her throat? Joss Whedon is not a nice man, and this is not a kind
> show. Anyway, the scenes we did get between her and Buffy were a
> treat; they have (or had) such great chemistry. I miss Kendra
> already...
At this point, JW became the tv version of Stephen King; the man who
waits until you are completely engrossed in what's happening and then
kills the character you love (not like) before you realize that you
love them at all. Nick Andros, Richard Ginelli.
> "This is really stupid but I laughed anyway" moment(s):
> - Willow's reaction to hearing about the "chair shortage."
> - Mr. Pointy.
>
> I don't know who was holding the gun at the end. I have a guess,
> but... anyway, I've come to the point where I'm inclined to trust
> the show if it tells me that something's a life-changing moment, so
> I'm quite excited to see the conclusion.
And Mr. AOQ uses the word excited. I think we got him.
After all the times I've
> said that I don't assign episode ratings on a curve or relative to
> anything else, I've come to realize that's not quite true. I may
> give the first part of a two-parter an unusually high rating even if it
> had its blah moments. That's because it has two jobs to do besides
> pure entertainment value: it has to provide adequate setup so that
> another episode can be built off it, and it has to leave the viewer
> really wanting to see the followup. Well, done and done. Take my
> "Excellent." Please.
It's a very nice feeling when the roller coaster get's going. Please
keep all limbs inside the vehicle at all times. Feel free to say
WEEEEEEE!
hopelessly devoted
Just one more thing.
Favorite line....
"Someone wasn't worthy."
L
O
L
William George Ferguson
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
>(or "The destiny-free hour")
>Writer: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
I'll try not to echo everyone else too much.
>Also in the 1996 flashbacks, it's really interesting seeing
>pre-series Buffy. Sarah Gellar gives us yet another reason to heap
>praise on her by convincingly making her character look much younger in
>these scenes, as she is emotionally, if not physically. Maybe it's
>the lollipop that does it. But there's no doubt that she's the
>same character, especially with dialogue like "I'm destiny-free,
>really." The stuff with her and her Watcher, and the stuff with
>Angel and Whistler, and the Buffy/Joyce/Voice Of Hank scene are all
>things that work perfectly on their own, but also provide the potential
>to build on.
The interesting thing is that this ep is the most 'part 1' of almost any
'Buffy part 1 of 2' eps and still holds the interest on its own.
>[People who've seen the original _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ (the
>Little Damned Movie?): please fill the rest of us in on what Bec1 does
>differently.]
Well, not so much B1 as the entire series. In the movie, staked vamps
just lay there, in the movie vamps flew (in the tv series, "Vampires can
fly?" "Vampires have cars."), in the movie there was only one Watcher,
and the Watcher and Slayer were the same people re-incarnated over and
over.
Basically, the story in the movie, with suitable alterations, is the
backstory of Welcome to the Hellmouth, the series isn't really a
re-telling.
Don's answered specifically on the Hemery High flashback.
>
>Oh yeah, our core cast is in this one too. Xander insists on
>continuing to patrol with Buffy (as first established in... _that_
>episode... although Xander as Buffy's self-appointed backup is a nice
>long-running thing that has roots as far back as "The Harvest.").
>This is despite his questionable value in a head-to-head fight. (I
>wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?)
I think one of the creators has even mentioned that.
At least they didn't give Xander an 'anvil' name (Stoppable?).
Of course, when you do this comparison, the obvious Willow analog is
Rufus (Wade is Giles, Bonnie is Cordy, etc.)
>So our
>Slaypack still seems tightly knit, especially in the subsequent
>lunchroom scene where they do seem happy to just be hanging out
>together giving us a funny scene with Snyder ("Yeah! [A class] where
>they teach lunch!").
You left out the classic summation of Snyder's character (as only Cordy
could give it) "... because you're a tiny, impotent Nazi with a bug up
his butt the size of an emu?
>The basic conflict concerns whether or not to try to give Angel his
>soul back (BTW, who else liked the way they teased us by having Buffy
>not notice the computer disk the first time?). In the past, Xander's
>anti-Angel sentiments have made him just seem dickish rather than
>actually presenting his honest opinions. This time, the episode
>convinced me that he believes what he's saying. There's not a
>simple answer - Buffy actually says "it's not that simple," as
>she's been learning over the course of Season Two. And Xander's
>regret over Calendar's death, something which he should have in
>common with Giles, is what gets the two of them arguing violently.
>Because he's acting rather dickish while giving those honest
>opinions. Really an interesting scene.
I never really 'bought' Xander's regret over Calendar's death. He seized
on an attack that would hurt or undermine Buffy stance the most (although
in the scene it wasn't Buffy pushing for the re-cursing, it was Willow)
Also, I liked at the time that Buffy carries the argument for re-doing
the curse on practical tactical grounds. She's not having them do the
curse to get souly-Angel back, it's a backup plan to take out Angelus in
case she fails in dusting him. Whether the curse works or not, she's
expecting to have to dust him or die trying.
>Thanks to psudeo-spoilers, I do have a (very) vague idea of where
>Willow's dabbling in magic is leading. The building blocks are being
>laid very nicely here. She's doing only what she has to do here, but
>the claim that she doesn't enjoy the idea of dabbling in The Black
>Arts at all? She's lying.
Likely even to herself.
>
>"This is really stupid but I laughed anyway" moment(s):
>- Willow's reaction to hearing about the "chair shortage."
>- Mr. Pointy.
I loved the little bit that told us something that I had pretty much
guessed by then. Dru really is bugfuck crazy, but she also deliberately
uses that to play with people. The scene when Angel finds out about
Acathla:
Dru: Oh, yeah. Something terrible. Psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst...
Angel: Where?
Dru: At the museum. A tomb... with a surprise inside.
Angel: You can see all that in your head?
Spike: No, you ninny. She read it in the morning paper.
(Dru gives a mischievous little giggle)
>I don't know who was holding the gun at the end. I have a guess,
>but... anyway, I've come to the point where I'm inclined to trust
>the show if it tells me that something's a life-changing moment, so
>I'm quite excited to see the conclusion. After all the times I've
>said that I don't assign episode ratings on a curve or relative to
>anything else, I've come to realize that's not quite true. I may
>give the first part of a two-parter an unusually high rating even if it
>had its blah moments. That's because it has two jobs to do besides
>pure entertainment value: it has to provide adequate setup so that
>another episode can be built off it, and it has to leave the viewer
>really wanting to see the followup. Well, done and done. Take my
>"Excellent." Please.
>
>But how the hell are they going to wrap this up in one hour?
Ahem, excellently of course.
Oh yeah, you know how different people have said 'I was waiting for you
to get to this one' for various episodes (WML, Innocence, and Passion
being key ones). You have now reached the point that pretty much
everyone has been waiting for since your WttH review.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
kenm47
you
to get to this one' for various episodes (WML, Innocence, and Passion
being key ones). You have now reached the point that pretty much
everyone has been waiting for since your WttH review. "
But nary a blubber, nor a sob, nor even, it seems, a moist eye for this
or Part 2.
If they're there, they are not being shared.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> At this point, JW became the tv version of Stephen King; the man who
> waits until you are completely engrossed in what's happening and then
> kills the character you love (not like) before you realize that you
> love them at all. Nick Andros, Richard Ginelli.
The worst Stephen King moment for me was when he killed Mattie Devore in
"Bag of Bones". I was convinced at that point that even though there may
be carnage afoot, it would take one of the other characters (my bet was
on John Storrow, the lawyer). And the way King telegraphed her death
somehow made it worse. Everything was going along fine at their little
picnic and then:
"Thanks for finally making up your mind," Mattie
said in a low voice. The next time she spoke to me,
I don't think she knew who she was talking to or
where she was. The next time she spoke to me, she
was dying.
That hit me like a punch to the gut. Not many authors can do that to me
but Mr. King consistently can.
And King's most recent book "Cell" has a similar moment in it as well.
Mike Zeares
kenm47 wrote:
> But nary a blubber, nor a sob, nor even, it seems, a moist eye for this
> or Part 2.
>
> If they're there, they are not being shared.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
And that's important because....
hopelessly devoted
I have to agree with kenm47. While the AOQ has defined his job to
"look objectively at each ep and give a review", it is the emotion of
the show that rocks your reality. Or at least rocked mine. Without
the emotional attachment, it's just 1 hour of sitting on your ass
looking for jokes, second guessing plots and making the grocery list.
How about a blubber, a sob, a moist eye and I'll raise you 1 throat
lump and an undefined period of quiet disbelief after the initial run.
JW, CB and Full of Grace, how can you not?
hopelessly devoted
show? Just curious.
KenM47
Oh, the humanity!
Because I'm always curious if I've just aged into some old wuss, or
other "guys" also get caught up in the emotions of the moment.
In the cosmic scheme of things? It ain't. In the cosmic scheme of
things, what is? In my scheme of things, my curiosity, my emotional
investment in this silly show, for me it is of interest. How can one
be a fan of this show without that emotional resonance?
Are we men or Borg?
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mike Zeares
KenM47 wrote:
> "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >kenm47 wrote:
> >
> >> But nary a blubber, nor a sob, nor even, it seems, a moist eye for this
> >> or Part 2.
> >>
> >> If they're there, they are not being shared.
> >>
> >> Ken (Brooklyn)
> >
> >And that's important because....
>
> Oh, the humanity!
>
> Because I'm always curious if I've just aged into some old wuss, or
> other "guys" also get caught up in the emotions of the moment.
Oh please. Get over yourself (I say that with a smile). Own your own
emotions. You still blubber? Awesome. I don't anymore, but I did for
a long time (I was 31 when the ep aired, btw, not quite an old wuss
yet. I hope). I blubber at women's figure skating ("Turandot" will do
that to me).
I keep "attacking" people on this issue because it's one of the things
I really dislike about online fandom. People react differently, and
should be allowed to. I HATE "political correctness" of any kind. If
AoQ didn't blubber, or doesn't want to share that he did, what's that
to anyone else? Not everyone wears their emotions on their sleeves,
which doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel free to.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
hopelessly devoted wrote:
> Speaking of Beck, does anyone have a complete list of Becks work on the
> show? Just curious.
Well, let's see if I can create one for you off the top of my head.
S2
WSWB
"additional score" on SAR (probably the piano bits)
IMG
Halloween
TDA
Ted
Surprise/Innocence
BB&B
Passion
IOHEFY
Becoming 1&2
S3 and S4, all.
S5 ep 22
S6 ep 7
Is that what you wanted?
-- Mike Zeares
hopelessly devoted
Kind of, sort of, no.
A Father's Love Helpless
Aftermath GD2
Alt Willow Dopplegangland
Ampata's Kiss Inca Mummy Girl
Angel Waits Passion
Band Candy Sugar High
Betrayal Helpless
Bizarro Sunnydale The Wish
Blood Machine The Wish
Looking for a more "technical" list, so to speak. Completely geeky, I
know. Just want to know how many out of how many I actually have.
KenM47
Agreed. At the same time I can express my amazement that a FIRST time
viewer does not seem to have an emotional reaction (or Mrs. AOQ for
that matter?) Just expressing curiosity.
For that matter, the music gets me. Sarah McLachlan's voice just does
it for me (it's like the distillation of every warm mother's loving
lullaby voice even in a sad song like FoG). The song by itself and
some of her others ("I Will Remember You" for example - which I don't
think they actually used in the same titled Angel episode) can get to
me as well. Other songs and singers can do it (Nancy LaMott in
particular) just hit that spot with me.
I find it amazing how JW just combined EVERYTHING in that farewell to
Sunnydale moment. Killed me then. Kills me still ( I don't rewatch the
shows all that often anymore). It's a major moment why I think of this
series as having no rival in my lifetime as greatest TV drama show
ever (up to a point - you know)
BTW, how clear was it to the fan base that Buffy would be back for S3
then? And if we knew then, when did we know?
Ken (Brooklyn)
Michael Ikeda
news:dp0702949k9da43q0...@4ax.com:
(snipped)
>
> BTW, how clear was it to the fan base that Buffy would be back
> for S3 then? And if we knew then, when did we know?
>
It had almost certainly been officially renewed by the time "Becoming
2" aired. And it would have been clear at least by February (and
probably earlier) that it was essentially certain to be renewed.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Boys don't cry. Man up!
Mike Zeares
hopelessly devoted wrote:
> \
> Kind of, sort of, no.
>
> A Father's Love Helpless
> Aftermath GD2
> Alt Willow Dopplegangland
> Ampata's Kiss Inca Mummy Girl
> Angel Waits Passion
> Band Candy Sugar High
> Betrayal Helpless
> Bizarro Sunnydale The Wish
> Blood Machine The Wish
>
> Looking for a more "technical" list, so to speak. Completely geeky, I
> know. Just want to know how many out of how many I actually have.
Can't help you there. I don't know how many clips are available
online. Quite a few -- I have a CD that I got at a fan gathering that
has over 30. And it doesn't even include any of S4, and not as much of
S3 as I'd like. It includes some of those you list, but not all.
My favorite is still "Magic Snow." When the oboe starts the main
melody, my heart gets a hitch in it.
-- Mike Zeares
Clairel
--Same here. It is a matter of amazement to me and, as I just stated
on another thread, I think the differences and the contrasts are worth
commenting on (in a polite, non-hostile way). What else is this NG
about if it's not about contrasting views?
Just expressing curiosity.
>
> For that matter, the music gets me. Sarah McLachlan's voice just does
> it for me (it's like the distillation of every warm mother's loving
> lullaby voice even in a sad song like FoG). The song by itself and
> some of her others ("I Will Remember You" for example - which I don't
> think they actually used in the same titled Angel episode) can get to
> me as well. Other songs and singers can do it (Nancy LaMott in
> particular) just hit that spot with me.
>
> I find it amazing how JW just combined EVERYTHING in that farewell to
> Sunnydale moment. Killed me then. Kills me still ( I don't rewatch the
> shows all that often anymore).
--Ken, what's amazing to me lately is how often you and I have the
exact same reaction to the exact same scenes and moments in these
season 2 episodes. Everything you said about the end scene with the
Sarah McLachlan music goes ditto for me.
That being so, I should think you could also eventually begin seeing
what it is that moves me so deeply about some of the serious and
poignant scenes involving Fcvxr in the later seasons. The only other
scene besides the end of Becoming that gets to me in the same way is
the scene at the end of Gur Tvsg in which Fcvxr is pelvat.
Clairel
hopelessly devoted
You got a CD? I won't say exactly how I came by mine, but Ohhhhhhh,
Ahhhhhh. I have 54 and just wanted to see where it set. Same as you,
S3, 4 and 5 seem to be ..................
Thanks though.
Mike Zeares
> You got a CD? I won't say exactly how I came by mine, but Ohhhhhhh,
> Ahhhhhh. I have 54 and just wanted to see where it set. Same as you,
> S3, 4 and 5 seem to be ..................
54????
*seethes with jealousy*
My CD doesn't even include some of my favorite clips, like the erotic
dream sequence in "Innocence" (followed by the "I am SO going to kick
someone's ass" music).
It does include ASH singing from Rocky Horror, though.
-- Mike Zeares
KenM47
Clairel,
That's a moment I like too. Not quite as deeply as you, but that's not
where my problems are. Enough said about that. And yes it is
interesting that earlier seasons could affect us similarly considering
some of the jousting we've done in the past on later ones.
It just struck me replying to your post after using my trusty decoder,
how often ROT13 kinda looks Yiddish. I mean "pelvat"? That should be a
Yiddish word. :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
Is that Moment of Happiness - Innocence --?
"I am SO going to kick someone's ass" music" The only one I can think
of is "What's that do?"
http://www.bluntinstrument.org.uk/beck/buffy/slayer.htm
Both should be there, but let me know.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mike Zeares wrote:
> KenM47 wrote:
> > "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >kenm47 wrote:
> > >
> > >> But nary a blubber, nor a sob, nor even, it seems, a moist eye for this
> > >> or Part 2.
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > Oh, the humanity!
> >
> > Because I'm always curious if I've just aged into some old wuss, or
> > other "guys" also get caught up in the emotions of the moment.
>
> Oh please. Get over yourself (I say that with a smile). Own your own
> emotions. You still blubber? Awesome. I don't anymore, but I did for
> a long time (I was 31 when the ep aired, btw, not quite an old wuss
> yet. I hope). I blubber at women's figure skating ("Turandot" will do
> that to me).
What's the origin of that phrase?
> I keep "attacking" people on this issue because it's one of the things
> I really dislike about online fandom. People react differently, and
> should be allowed to. I HATE "political correctness" of any kind. If
> AoQ didn't blubber, or doesn't want to share that he did, what's that
> to anyone else? Not everyone wears their emotions on their sleeves,
> which doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel free to.
The sentiment is appreciated.
To answer the original question, I just don't cry easily at fictitious
things, even when I'm moved or think they're "effective." Or at all...
I don't think I've all-out cried in something like six years. That's
just how I am, though. But if anything gets through my heart of stone
(or Mrs. Quality's), you folks will be the first to know.
One last gratutitous Trek reference for the season: you know which DS9
episode makes me a little misty-eyed, if not actually tearful? "Hard
Time" (the one where O'Brien spends twenty years in prison, sort of).
Just that episode, very little else in the whole Trek franchise... but
the last act gets me every single time.
-AOQ
Clairel
--Well, now this is getting just uncanny. Because, believe it or not,
a few minutes ago I was thinking the same exact thing about "pelvat."
ROT13 is kind of fun.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > I've come to the point where I'm inclined to trust
> > the show if it tells me that something's a life-changing moment
>
> Ah, if it were only true (re: your next review).
Well, I suppose I didn't specify _whose_ life. I'm sure Buffy and
Angel would say it was pretty memorable.
> > One-sentence summary: It fascinates, and it captivates, and it gives my
> > soul no peace.
>
> No bonus points for dragging out obscure Rush lyrics.
No, no. You're the one who earns the bonus points, for getting the
obscure reference.
-AOQ
~no one noticed the last few times I used song lyrics~
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Mike Zeares wrote:
> > KenM47 wrote:
> > > "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >kenm47 wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> But nary a blubber, nor a sob, nor even, it seems, a moist eye for this
> > > >> or Part 2.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >And that's important because....
> > >
> > > Oh, the humanity!
> > >
> > > Because I'm always curious if I've just aged into some old wuss, or
> > > other "guys" also get caught up in the emotions of the moment.
> >
> > Oh please. Get over yourself (I say that with a smile). Own your own
> > emotions. You still blubber? Awesome. I don't anymore, but I did for
> > a long time (I was 31 when the ep aired, btw, not quite an old wuss
> > yet. I hope). I blubber at women's figure skating ("Turandot" will do
> > that to me).
>
> What's the origin of that phrase?
--Do you mean the phrase "Oh the humanity!"?
It comes from the radio commentary by the on-the-scene radio reporter
when the Hindenburg crashed and burned in New Jersey in the 1930s. The
radio guy was so overwhelmed to see the people dying on the Hindenburg
that he exclaimed "Oh the humanity!".
Clairel
KenM47
Oh come on! Even TNG's "The Inner Light" doesn't get to you?
In another discussion group I hang at we voted TIL the best ST episode
of all the series. Something had to be no.1, and that's what our
majority went with.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
I'm just amazed I've never heard of it before. I mean, I've been on
Usenet regularly for many years now (and engaged in *many* debates about
spoilers) and until these AOQ reviews, I'd never even heard of ROT-13.
Imagine my surprise when, after seeing all these gibberish posts
suddenly show up, I found that my own newsreader has a ROT-13
scramble/unscramble function.
I guess it's just one of those blind spots that occasionally turn up in
life to surprise us.
George W Harris
:> It just struck me replying to your post after using my trusty decoder,
:> how often ROT13 kinda looks Yiddish. I mean "crying"? That should be a
:> Yiddish word. :-)
:
:--Well, now this is getting just uncanny. Because, believe it or not,
:a few minutes ago I was thinking the same exact thing about "pelvat."
:
:ROT13 is kind of fun.
I have a friend in Boston (near Arkham) whose
name in rot13 is Ivetvy F Terrar. A *great* name. I'm not
sure what the 'F' is for.
:
:Clairel
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Arbitrar Of Quality
> >
> > What's the origin of that phrase?
>
> --Do you mean the phrase "Oh the humanity!"?
No, I meant "Turandot."
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Oh come on! Even TNG's "The Inner Light" doesn't get to you?
>
> In another discussion group I hang at we voted TIL the best ST episode
> of all the series. Something had to be no.1, and that's what our
> majority went with.
Heart of stone and all. TIL rocks, though. It's one of those episodes
that's good enough that even if one doesn't personally feel it's #1,
it's hard to really contest that.
-AOQ
Mike Zeares
It's a Puccini opera. Look up "Nessun Dorma." It's Pavoratti's
signature tune -- he did it at the Olympics opening ceremony, I believe
(I didn't watch). It's horribly overused by figure skaters, but it
still works on me. In a way that's downright scary. Some people
probably know it as the 1990 World Cup "theme song."
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
hopelessly devoted wrote:
> Is that Moment of Happiness - Innocence --?
> "I am SO going to kick someone's ass" music" The only one I can think
> of is "What's that do?"
>
> http://www.bluntinstrument.org.uk/beck/buffy/slayer.htm
>
> Both should be there, but let me know.
Yes, Moment of Happiness starts the dream sequence music. But that
track cuts off too soon. When the dream shifts to the graveside, and
Angel says "You have to know what to see," the music becomes more
ominous. The heartbeat that was in the earlier part is now more of a
drum beat. Dum-dum. Dum-dum. Then there's a crescendo as Jenny lifts
up her veil so Buffy can see. Then Buffy wakes up. Next we see her
March of Whoop-Ass and as she goes to confront Ms Calendar, and the
music goes nuts. DUN-DUN! DUN-DUN! It's freaking brilliant. One of
my favorite cues of the series.
That's a nice site, but I won't be downloading that track, because
it'll just make me angry every time when it cuts off too soon. But
thanks. I'll check out the rest of it.
-- Mike Zeares
Scythe Matters
> No, no. You're the one who earns the bonus points, for getting the
> obscure reference.
My geekery knows many forms.
> ~no one noticed the last few times I used song lyrics~
I usually notice, but this one was especially out there. "The Fountain
of Lamneth" doesn't usually intrude into random conversations. Maybe
with your crowd. ;-)
Exquisite Witch Peach
> In article <1141069709.9...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
>
>
>>At this point, JW became the tv version of Stephen King; the man who
>>waits until you are completely engrossed in what's happening and then
>>kills the character you love (not like) before you realize that you
>>love them at all. Nick Andros, Richard Ginelli.
>
>
> The worst Stephen King moment for me was when he killed Mattie Devore in
> "Bag of Bones". I was convinced at that point that even though there may
> be carnage afoot, it would take one of the other characters (my bet was
> on John Storrow, the lawyer). And the way King telegraphed her death
> somehow made it worse. Everything was going along fine at their little
> picnic and then:
>
> "Thanks for finally making up your mind," Mattie
> said in a low voice. The next time she spoke to me,
> I don't think she knew who she was talking to or
> where she was. The next time she spoke to me, she
> was dying.
>
> That hit me like a punch to the gut. Not many authors can do that to me
> but Mr. King consistently can.
>
> And King's most recent book "Cell" has a similar moment in it as well.
Oh great. Now I have to read Cell. *sigh*
ty BTR
kl...@ucsc.edu
Ah, Rot13... Y'know, I always like to have small bills in my wallet --
GRAF, SVIRF, and BARF.
My favorite month is WHAR and my favorite holiday is GUNAXFTVIVAT,
though I do also like the one with the guy who goes "UB UB UB!"
Just remember: BOYBAT = OBLONG.
arnold kim
"MARY KIRBY DIAZ" <kirb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141020667....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> In the movie, Buffy had a "normal" (non-vamp) boyfriend. Angel was a
> new character.
I recall Joss Whedon said at some point that he basically took Pike and
split him into Xander and Angel.
Arnold Kim
David Empey
@fe09.lga:
Now there's a premise for what could be a hilarious story.
--
Dave Empey
"This can be easily fixed by taking 17 levels of Ranger."
--Nockermensch
hopelessly devoted
Mike Zeares wrote:
> Yes, Moment of Happiness starts the dream sequence music. But that
> track cuts off too soon. When the dream shifts to the graveside, and
> Angel says "You have to know what to see," the music becomes more
> ominous. The heartbeat that was in the earlier part is now more of a
> drum beat. Dum-dum. Dum-dum. Then there's a crescendo as Jenny lifts
> up her veil so Buffy can see. Then Buffy wakes up. Next we see her
> March of Whoop-Ass and as she goes to confront Ms Calendar, and the
> music goes nuts. DUN-DUN! DUN-DUN! It's freaking brilliant. One of
> my favorite cues of the series.
For some reason I was think two separate pieces. Yeah, I know what you
mean. I never did find the full. But I try.
David Samuel Barr
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > wonder if whoever created _Kim Possible_ is a BTVS fan?)
>
> Don't have proof, but I'd bet on it. Kim's "What's the sitch?"
> catch-phrase is from WTTH, and the character in general is very
> Buffy-like. I see KP as the animated Buffy that we never got.
A matter already dealt with on several occasions during your absence,
most notably in
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer/msg/81931e56b02f08fd?hl=en&
(What is that? That freaky thing?)
BTR1701
It's pretty decent, although I think he copped out a bit on the ending.
Let me know when you're done with it and we'll talk.
hopelessly devoted
Bag of Bones (I've had for a while) and Cell I still have to read. I
will get to one or the other when I finish McCammon's Nightbird.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> ~no one noticed the last few times I used song lyrics~
That's actually not true, since Melissa caught the second most recent
(pre-Bec2) one.
-AOQ
~yes, I did feel that correction was worthy of a post~
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Hee. Speaking of... www.worldwidesuicide.com
Exquisite Witch Peach
Will do. I'll have to remind you, it'll be months. 9 weeks left of
this semester, then I have free time again. :)
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
> (or "The destiny-free hour")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
I was just reminded of something that I don't think came up back when we
were first discussing this episode:
JOSS SUCKS AT MATH!
- Back in 'Angel,' in 1997, we are told that he's 240 years old.
- In 'Some Assembly Required' he tells us that he's 241, still 1997, so
he's had his birthday sometime since 'Angel' and he was born sometime in
the spring or summer of 1756.
In 'Halloween' we are told that he was 18 in 1775. This doesn't quite
work, but it's only a year out.
Then we come to 'Becoming' and we see the year that Angel became a
vampire: 1753. Oops. This is three years before he was born. Even if
he counts his age from when he became a vampire, it still doesn't work.
(Va Natry gur Frevrf gurl nqqrq guerr lrnef gb uvf fgngrq ntr, naq
pbhagrq sebz jura ur orpnzr n inzcver, naq fnvq gung ur jnf obea va
1727.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1141014150....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Two, Episode 21: "Becoming (Part One)"
> > (or "The destiny-free hour")
> > Writer: Joss Whedon
> > Director: Joss Whedon
>
> I was just reminded of something that I don't think came up back when we
> were first discussing this episode:
>
> JOSS SUCKS AT MATH!
those who cannot do teach
those who cannot compute write tv scripts
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
Doesn't Buffy at one point say he's 240 years _older_ than her??? That
would put him at age 256 when Buffy is 16. Wow, that just looks too weird.
So, Buffy turns turns 17 in 1998 ("Surprise") which would make Angel 257
years old in 1998, making him born in 1741. Ok ,that still doesn't make
sense if he was vamped in 1753. He's definitely older than 12 at that
point!!
You're right -- Joss sucks at math!
Mel
cry...@panix.com
> Doesn't Buffy at one point say he's 240 years _older_ than her??? That
> would put him at age 256 when Buffy is 16. Wow, that just looks too weird.
Actually, she says 224. This is from episode 7, "Angel".
> So, Buffy turns turns 17 in 1998 ("Surprise") which would make Angel 257
> years old in 1998, making him born in 1741. Ok ,that still doesn't make
> sense if he was vamped in 1753. He's definitely older than 12 at that
> point!!
They pretty consistently refer to his age as though it were reset
to zero when he was vamped. I'm not sure why, though.
-Crystal
Don Sample
wrote:
In 'Angel' she says that he's 224 years older than her, which is in line
with her being sixteen, and him 240.
Don Sample
Except the only instance of them doing it that way, in the Buffy series,
is the date shown in 'Becoming.' Every other reference to his age is
consistent with the age first given in 'Angel.'