AOQ Review 3-16: "Dopplegangland"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
(or "Evil-twin stories are also eleven hundred and twenty years
old")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
I thought I was safe calling "The Wish," of all episodes,
"inconsequential." You folks must've had a good laugh, huh?
Joss must be trying to make me look bad. (Throughout this review
I'll be using, more often than usual, the device of pretending that
anything I write has the potential to impact things filmed seven years
ago. It's just a writer-ey thing.) Anyway, this one seems even more
like inconsequential fluff than TW (at this point, anyway), so let's
see if I can generate enough thoughts to fill a few pages.
The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence. See, I thought
this was weird since the vibe I'd gotten from "Consequences" was
that she was done hanging out at SHS (she doesn't actually go to
school, right?), with the Watchers still hunting for her. Instead it
seems like Giles and Wesley are fine with her being around. Doesn't
sit right with me. Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
whose side she's on, if any.
A good portion of the setup (and subtext) is about Wil getting fed up
with being the good one, the reliable one. Everyone's having these
searches for identity lately. This contains a scene I'm going to use
as my microcosm for the episode - the bit with the banana. On the
one hand, it's ridiculous: there does not exist an eighteen-year-old
anywhere in the world who would consider eating fruit prior to
lunchtime to be an act of rebellion, and every time the show has Willow
does something like that for the sake of a joke, she becomes more of an
over-the-top caricature. On the other hand, it's ridiculous; insane
enough to make me smile. There's a lot of that in
"Dopplegangland." Stuff that one smiles at and then feels guilty
about being amused, in a "fiddling while Rome burns" kinda way
(except not so pretentious). The banana joke and others like it make
this episode my first bonafide guilty pleasure - I enjoyed myself
watching it, but I don't think that's a reflection of its actual
quality.
This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid. Some of it
is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
"oh, hi, Willow" moment. When something works, it can be enough to
save a scene that was floundering. Prime example is Willow pretending
to be her vamp/vamping twin at the Bronze. It goes on way too long,
but it's not so unpleasant to watch because a few of the little
details are right: Willow having trouble walking straight at first, her
amusing attempt to play with a girl's hair, and the ending gag
("yeah, humans do that").
There're some other moments that worked for me that way, so I'll
list a few. "I'm storming off. It doesn't really work if you
come with me." "Well, did you try looking inside the sofa IN
HELL?" The series of hugs ("oxygen becoming an issue..."). The
discussion of how many unique chords a band should be expected to
master. Cordelia's "like you could!" re: boyfriend-stealing.
These bits help keep things lively, but they're not really enough
content to make a particularly special episode either.
Early on, I was loving the plot. I wouldn't have imagined that
it'd be possible to do a sequel to TW, but I like the way Anya keeps
scheming afterward, uses just the right incentive to recruit Willow,
the use of clips from TW, the way Willow jumps into things but then
gets cold feet, the way Anya then smoothly shifts gears to try to use
Evil Willow, the way our Willow is able to keep her wits about her and
get the jump on her evil self... there be some good ideas in that
run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
to set up the Willows' confrontation.
Oh yeah, when I said that Evil Willow (or Wish!Willow, to use vague
disclaimer's terminology) was fun enough to watch for long periods of
time? I feel personally responsible for the excesses here. I didn't
mean quite this long; as much as everyone loves the leather and the
two-word sentences, watching her lick everyone in sight was starting to
get old by the end of the show.
You know what else I'm tired of? Flossing references. I don't
know where this became the ubiquitous "witty" way to refer to good
behavior (not just in BTVS, all throughout pop-culture), but I'm sick
of it.
I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
although I know they tried to explain. She's a killer with nothing
left of the original person, right? But sending her right back to the
moment where she gets killed is sort of a fitting end. And now I'd
like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Faith bouncing on the bed and Wilkins' reaction
- "Match? You want us to breed?"
- There's something hilarious about Hannigan's delivery on "I
think I'm kinda gay"
- Evil Willow's "bored now" expression during her scene with Cordelia
- "Turns out there were two president Roosevelts..."
A few more general/irrelevant takes:
1) The early Willow/Oz exchange reminded me that I don't think
they'd had any noteworthy scenes together since '98. That may not
bode well...
2) Okay, show, you interpreted the reference to DS9's "Crossover"
as a desire for Willow-on-Willow scenes, didn't you? I'll have you
know that there was a lot more to that episode than Kira lusting after
herself. You only aped the surface elements. So you're still
"Through the Looking Glass," bitch. (And if you don't quit while
you're ahead, you might end up as "Shattered Mirror," and I
don't think anyone wants that.)
3) During the scene where Wesley saves Cordelia, a thought occurred to
me that inspired, for the first time ever, a rot13 comment *within* an
AOQ review (to avoid spoiling other newbs): Vfa'g bar bs gur znva
punenpgref va gur Ohsslirefr, V guvax ba Natry'f frevrf, anzrq
"Jrfyrl?" GUNG thl?
4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
G" Cohen.)
So...
One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
to get gross if you eat too much.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good
8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent
9) "The Wish" - Decent
10) "Amends" - Good
11) "Gingerbread" - Good
12) "Helpless" - Excellent
13) "The Zeppo" - Decent
14) "Bad Girls" - Good
15) "Consequences" - Excellent
16) "Dopplegangland" - Decent]
Jeff Jacoby
Does seem like a bit of a big reset. "Hey, yeah, you killed
someone, nearly killed our friend, we know you have a real
yen to kill, and we were gonna haul you off to England in chains.
But y'know what? Let's just forget all that and get on with
the show! Jolly good fun, what."
> Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
> killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
> whose side she's on, if any.
[snip]
> This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid. Some of it
> is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
> actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
> that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
> with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
Xander shaking the cross...what a riot!!
> When something works, it can be enough to
> save a scene that was floundering. Prime example is Willow pretending
> to be her vamp/vamping twin at the Bronze. It goes on way too long,
> but it's not so unpleasant to watch because a few of the little
> details are right: Willow having trouble walking straight at first, her
> amusing attempt to play with a girl's hair, and the ending gag
> ("yeah, humans do that").
I was always curious why they completely redressed vamp!Willow
in Willow's clothes, right down to the tights and shoes.
> There're some other moments that worked for me that way, so I'll
> list a few. "I'm storming off. It doesn't really work if you
> come with me." "Well, did you try looking inside the sofa IN
> HELL?" The series of hugs ("oxygen becoming an issue..."). The
> discussion of how many unique chords a band should be expected to
> master. Cordelia's "like you could!" re: boyfriend-stealing.
It's interesting that she even thinks to refer to it as
"boyfriend-stealing".
[bigger snip]
> 4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
> actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
> G" Cohen.)
Denisoff, like Marsters, is American.
Now give me a friggin' beer!
Jeff
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
> (or "Evil-twin stories are also eleven hundred and twenty years
> old")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
Spelling note: It's Doppelgangland. (Or Doppelgängland.)
> The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
> Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
> gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence. See, I thought
> this was weird since the vibe I'd gotten from "Consequences" was
> that she was done hanging out at SHS (she doesn't actually go to
> school, right?), with the Watchers still hunting for her. Instead it
> seems like Giles and Wesley are fine with her being around. Doesn't
> sit right with me.
They address this. Someone (Wesley, (or more likely Giles, through
Wesley)) has convinced the Council to keep Faith in Sunnydale and deal
with her there. They have sent psychologists etc., to evaluate her (and
Buffy, while they're at it.)
BTW: After seeing what Willow did with the pencil, were you thinking
"There's the way to dust a vamp!"
> Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
> killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
> whose side she's on, if any.
You mean Willow, not Buffy, right? And while she didn't seem happy to
hear about it, she didn't bother actually warning anyone about it.
> A good portion of the setup (and subtext) is about Wil getting fed up
> with being the good one, the reliable one. Everyone's having these
> searches for identity lately. This contains a scene I'm going to use
> as my microcosm for the episode - the bit with the banana. On the
> one hand, it's ridiculous: there does not exist an eighteen-year-old
> anywhere in the world who would consider eating fruit prior to
> lunchtime to be an act of rebellion, and every time the show has Willow
> does something like that for the sake of a joke, she becomes more of an
> over-the-top caricature. On the other hand, it's ridiculous; insane
> enough to make me smile. There's a lot of that in
> "Dopplegangland." Stuff that one smiles at and then feels guilty
> about being amused, in a "fiddling while Rome burns" kinda way
> (except not so pretentious). The banana joke and others like it make
> this episode my first bonafide guilty pleasure - I enjoyed myself
> watching it, but I don't think that's a reflection of its actual
> quality.
>
> This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid. Some of it
> is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
> actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
> that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
> with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
Oh come on! That was great!
Almost as good as Xander shaking the cross, and then trying it again to
see if that fixed it.
> When something works, it can be enough to
> save a scene that was floundering. Prime example is Willow pretending
> to be her vamp/vamping twin at the Bronze.
"Gosh! Look at those!" [Xander looks.]
> It goes on way too long,
> but it's not so unpleasant to watch because a few of the little
> details are right: Willow having trouble walking straight at first, her
> amusing attempt to play with a girl's hair, and the ending gag
> ("yeah, humans do that").
>
> "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
Like a lot of stuff in Buffy, it doesn't really work well if you think
about it too much. You just have to go with the flow.
> You know what else I'm tired of? Flossing references. I don't
> know where this became the ubiquitous "witty" way to refer to good
> behavior (not just in BTVS, all throughout pop-culture), but I'm sick
> of it.
But this was originally broadcast back in 1998. Eight years ago, when
it was fresh and new. It's not Joss's fault that everyone else jumped
on board his wagon. (Naq va yrff guna n lrne, sybffvat jvyy or hfrq nf
n fvta bs rivy.)
> I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
> although I know they tried to explain. She's a killer with nothing
> left of the original person, right? But sending her right back to the
> moment where she gets killed is sort of a fitting end. And now I'd
> like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
> I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
> be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
Yeah, sending her back was silly. They should have just staked her.
BTW: It is interesting to compare the scene with Buffy and Evil!Willow
in 'Doppelgängland' with Faith and Finch in 'Bad Girls.'
In 'Bad Girls' Faith grabs Finch, and raises her stake. Buffy cries
"Faith! No!" but Faith stakes him anyway.
In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*. If you compare the timing,
where the "No!" is cried, you see that Faith should have been able to
stop herself, if she'd been paying any attention to what Buffy was
saying at the time.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Faith bouncing on the bed and Wilkins' reaction
> - "Match? You want us to breed?"
> - There's something hilarious about Hannigan's delivery on "I
> think I'm kinda gay"
> - Evil Willow's "bored now" expression during her scene with Cordelia
> - "Turns out there were two president Roosevelts..."
And the apple.
> 3) During the scene where Wesley saves Cordelia, a thought occurred to
> me that inspired, for the first time ever, a rot13 comment *within* an
> AOQ review (to avoid spoiling other newbs): Vfa'g bar bs gur znva
> punenpgref va gur Ohsslirefr, V guvax ba Natry'f frevrf, anzrq
> "Jrfyrl?" GUNG thl?
Yep. That's him.
> 4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
> actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
> G" Cohen.)
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> to get gross if you eat too much.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Your sense of humour is broken.
The main redeeming quality of 'The Wish' is that it made
'Doppelgangland' possible.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > to get gross if you eat too much.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Decent
>
> Your sense of humour is broken.
>
> The main redeeming quality of 'The Wish' is that it made
> 'Doppelgangland' possible.
fun with willow episode
of course it has no consequences with rest of the series
so many great scenes
xander saying willow was better than him and giles quickly agreeing
shaking the cross to get it operating again
noticing those
hands new places
is tehre something on my neck
vampwillow cant believe shes all fluffy
the painful boredom of listening to cordelia rant
id - im 1100 years old gimme a beer - id
devon trying to climb up to the skylight
quick wave to oz
percys new respect letting willow decide to go to the bronze
tranquilizer gun - bitch
this couldnt get more disturbing
gubhtu naln trgf qvfgheovat jvgu gur gjb knaqref
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
:killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
:whose side she's on, if any.
Actually, the suggestion was to kill Willow
("Let's kill your little friend"). It came right after she told
him Willow was hacking into his computers, he said a
vampire attack would make sense, and later on Vamp
Willow was attacked by vampires working (at least for
the moment) for the Mayor.
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Kevin
Don Sample wrote:
> > [AOQ:] When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> > "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
>
> Oh come on! That was great!
But it is the dumbest gag in the episode, and Boreanaz' exasperated
double-take is not exactly his forte; I can see calling it a "thud".
> "Gosh! Look at those!" [Xander looks.]
And Xander's look, though seen only briefly in a quickly-moving scene,
is priceless. Same with another hilarious moment, as Giles is pressed
to explain the goings-on: "Uh... Something... very strange... is
happening." Xander, after a beat: "Can you believe the watchers'
council let this guy go?"
Hate to break it to you, AOQ (only because I expect it might stun you a
bit) -- but Doppelgangland came in at #1 in various fan polls for
Season 3. Not only the general crowd of Leather Willow wankers, but
here among newsgroup reviewers as well, I believe. Most considered it
an absolute riot, a bravura performance from Hannigan, and the tightest
comedic script of the series. For me, oddly, I see exactly what you
mean about its fluffiness, and yet somehow it's still in my Top-3 of
the season. I don't know how to explain that. (Except to offer my
belief that, in the end, the comedy/standalones actually trump the
drama/arc in the second half of S3.)
Brilliant bits for Snyder, in his beautiful delivery ("Ask me how I
know." "How do y--" "I just... know."), and Buffy & Willow in the
perfect (and wonderfully cute) teaser, one of my very favorite scenes.
And the funny just keeps on coming.
--Kevin
Don Sample
"Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote:
> Hate to break it to you, AOQ (only because I expect it might stun you a
> bit) -- but Doppelgangland came in at #1 in various fan polls for
> Season 3. Not only the general crowd of Leather Willow wankers, but
> here among newsgroup reviewers as well, I believe. Most considered it
> an absolute riot, a bravura performance from Hannigan, and the tightest
> comedic script of the series. For me, oddly, I see exactly what you
> mean about its fluffiness, and yet somehow it's still in my Top-3 of
> the season. I don't know how to explain that. (Except to offer my
> belief that, in the end, the comedy/standalones actually trump the
> drama/arc in the second half of S3.)
And once again, what's funny, and what isn't, is one of the most
personal of evaluations. No matter what anyone else says, if you don't
laugh, you don't laugh. It is very rare for a "but you should have
laughed when..." to change that.
Sometimes it can. Sometimes you get the education you need to
understand a joke after the first time you see the joke, so the joke can
become funny in retrospect, but that is rare. (Something like a
double-take, though, you either find funny, or you don't. There is
nothing that can be done to make it funny to the person who found it
unfunny the first time.)
JJ Karhu
greykitten tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
>> > to get gross if you eat too much.
>> >
>> > AOQ rating: Decent
>>
>> Your sense of humour is broken.
>>
>> The main redeeming quality of 'The Wish' is that it made
>> 'Doppelgangland' possible.
>
>fun with willow episode
>
>of course it has no consequences with rest of the series
Jryy, "xvaqn tnl"?
// JJ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Spelling note: It's Doppelgangland. (Or Doppelgängland.)
Ah. That's a little embarassing.
> You mean Willow, not Buffy, right? And while she didn't seem happy to
> hear about it, she didn't bother actually warning anyone about it.
Yes to the first part, and if she'd warned anyone it would've suggested
that she knew whose side she was on, if any.
> > This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid. Some of it
> > is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
> > actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
> > that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
> > with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> > "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
>
> Oh come on! That was great!
Thud.
> Almost as good as Xander shaking the cross, and then trying it again to
> see if that fixed it.
Now that's funny. As is pretty much that whole scenelet.
> Like a lot of stuff in Buffy, it doesn't really work well if you think
> about it too much.
Such high praise for a show - "it doesn't really work well if you think
about it." It's a mild annoyance given that when the show is "on",
it's capable of some really clever plotting, but sometimes it seems
like Joss et al just don't really care enough to make the little pieces
fit (especially given how good the show is with the little touches re:
the emotional side of things). As always, of course, the glaringness
of plotholes is inversely proportional to how engaged one is in the
episode as a whole.
> BTW: It is interesting to compare the scene with Buffy and Evil!Willow
> in 'Doppelgängland' with Faith and Finch in 'Bad Girls.'
>
> In 'Bad Girls' Faith grabs Finch, and raises her stake. Buffy cries
> "Faith! No!" but Faith stakes him anyway.
>
> In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
> Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*. If you compare the timing,
> where the "No!" is cried, you see that Faith should have been able to
> stop herself, if she'd been paying any attention to what Buffy was
> saying at the time.
That is quite interesting. Whooshed by OFV, but a very nice touch.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
JJ Karhu <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote:
sometimes im callous and strange
Apteryx
news:1143261208.7...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> "inconsequential." You folks must've had a good laugh, huh?
That was pretty good.
> enough to make me smile. There's a lot of that in
> "Dopplegangland." Stuff that one smiles at and then feels guilty
> about being amused, in a "fiddling while Rome burns" kinda way
> (except not so pretentious). The banana joke and others like it make
> this episode my first bonafide guilty pleasure - I enjoyed myself
> watching it, but I don't think that's a reflection of its actual
> quality.
Nah, its not the job of a TV episode to make us enjoy it. TV is meant for a
Higher Purpose.
> run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
> continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting parallel
universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
but now it appears that all that happens is that he returned Buffyverse
Cordelia and the camera crew to their rightful place, and condemned Anyanka
(there seems to be only one) to "failing math". Wishverse Cordelia came off
worse though - she would have been returned to her universe only to find she
was now dead and cremated.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Faith bouncing on the bed and Wilkins' reaction
> - "Match? You want us to breed?"
> - There's something hilarious about Hannigan's delivery on "I
> think I'm kinda gay"
> - Evil Willow's "bored now" expression during her scene with Cordelia
> - "Turns out there were two president Roosevelts..."
>
>
> One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> to get gross if you eat too much.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Whereas in reality, definitely one of the three funniest BtVS episodes .
Far, far too many great gags to quote a fair sample of them, so I'll just
add one that doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far:
Giles: She was truly the finest of all of us.
Xander: Way better than me.
Giles: Much, much better.
For me, the 10th best BtVS episode, and best in Season 3 (I just promoted it
2 places and back into my Top Ten for the first time in about 2 years when I
watched it again today). And even though I think the grade I am translating
as Excellent is probably a little higher than your standard for "Excellent",
that makes it Excellent for me, and the first in Season 3 to achieve that
standard.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1143261208.7...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
> > continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> > actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> > full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
>
> Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting parallel
> universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
> destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
> but now it appears that all that happens is that he returned Buffyverse
> Cordelia and the camera crew to their rightful place, and condemned Anyanka
> (there seems to be only one) to "failing math". Wishverse Cordelia came off
> worse though - she would have been returned to her universe only to find she
> was now dead and cremated.
There is nothing in this that indicates that the Wishverse is an
on-going parallel reality. The spell pulled the alternate Willow out of
the Wishverse past. The Evil!Willow that Anya's spell pulled into this
reality was the Evil!Willow that existed before Giles smashed her
amulet. We have seen nothing to indicate that the Wishverse continued on
after the amulet was destroyed. That universe ended when Giles smashed
the Amulet. He killed himself, and everyone in it.
For Giles personally, that universe continuing on in parallel with the
Buffyverse, would have been a better thing, since smashing the amulet
wouldn't have been an act of suicide. There was no way for him to save
himself from what had happened in his past. He had to live (or not)
with that, no matter what happened.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> > actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> > full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
>
> Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting parallel
> universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
> destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
anya had willow help her make a fold back in time
to when both wishverse and buffyverse existed
vampwillow was returned to wishverse at the same moment she was taken
and the scene ends a few seconds later
before giles smashed the power center
so we see nothing of the wishverse outside the temporal bounds
set in the wish episode
and no evidence that it continued to exist in parallel to buffyverse
they felt they were releasing vampwillow back into an alternate universe
but theyve been wrong before
so again their assumption does not mean the wishverse persisted
eli...@gmail.com
having seen later seasons - as is the case with most of Buffy. The
entire series is packed full of foreshadowing, under-the-radar
'set-ups' etc, which makes even the dullest of episodes worth
re-watching (although possibly not 'Bad Eggs').
Re. this ep. I will only point out one little bit of dialogue:
Buffy: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality
has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy)
That's a good point.
Something to ponder maybe...
Apteryx
news:mair_fheal-5021A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> > run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
>> > continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
>> > actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
>> > full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
>>
>> Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting
>> parallel
>> universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
>> destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
>
> anya had willow help her make a fold back in time
> to when both wishverse and buffyverse existed
>
> vampwillow was returned to wishverse at the same moment she was taken
> and the scene ends a few seconds later
> before giles smashed the power center
>
> so we see nothing of the wishverse outside the temporal bounds
> set in the wish episode
> and no evidence that it continued to exist in parallel to buffyverse
That wasn't just some temporal fold, that was some weird Hell place.
The two universerses aren't even parallel to each other in the same
timeframe. There is no time at which both universes exist together. In The
Wish Cordelia is actually returned to the normal Buffyverse a few seconds
BEFORE the point at which she left it (upon returning, she repeats her wish
that Buffy never came to Sunnydale). And Wishverse Willow is also returned
just before she left (taken just after Oz grabs hers, returned just before).
But we see two universes, and two Willows together. The people who seem to
know most (in particular Anya) treat them as two seperate realities.
We don't need evidence that the Wishverse continues to exist. There is no
evidence that it doesn't. Belief in the persistence of universes is natural,
not believing that they persist beyond the point where we observe them is
perverse. As I write, I have no evidence that this universe will continue to
exist long enough for me to finish this post and to post it. And yet I
persist in believing in persistence. One day perhaps I will be be wrong in
that belief. But it has worked for me so far.
--
Apteryx
KenM47
GLT/JNL nf bar).
Excellent (++)
There's just no part of the episode that isn't fun. Not a line. Not a
scene.
"Decent"? I must be watching a different show.
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
> I thought I was safe calling "The Wish," of all episodes,
> "inconsequential." You folks must've had a good laugh, huh?
Who us???? :->
> The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
> Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
> gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence.
Remarkably tolerant in one respect and very forgiving in another.
Willow being the only exception, I was shocked that Xander wasn't
more........put off.
> See, I thought
> this was weird since the vibe I'd gotten from "Consequences" was
> that she was done hanging out at SHS (she doesn't actually go to
> school, right?), with the Watchers still hunting for her. Instead it
> seems like Giles and Wesley are fine with her being around. Doesn't
> sit right with me. Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
> killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
> whose side she's on, if any.
Others have already pointed out the actual target. But we now know
were Faith's loyalties are.
> I enjoyed myself
> watching it, but I don't think that's a reflection of its actual
> quality.
OK, so you're a late bloomer.
> When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
I was still wondering at this point exactly HOW he got his own show.
> There're some other moments that worked for me that way, so I'll
> list a few. "I'm storming off. It doesn't really work if you
> come with me." "Well, did you try looking inside the sofa IN
> HELL?" The series of hugs ("oxygen becoming an issue..."). The
> discussion of how many unique chords a band should be expected to
> master. Cordelia's "like you could!" re: boyfriend-stealing.
> These bits help keep things lively, but they're not really enough
> content to make a particularly special episode either.
I have to go with fixing the cross as the highlight. It tends to lose
it's glamour sometimes, but on first viewing, Laugh Riot.
> There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
> to set up the Willows' confrontation.
I always thought she went back to get the gun so they wouldn't have to
kill Wish!Willow
My number 9. Just too damn funny.
Stephen Tempest
>Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
>killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
>whose side she's on, if any.
And the Mayor apparently noticed her twinge of conscience and
successfully distracted her by choosing that moment to tell her about
her new PlayStation.
He's cunning and evil, she's still Miss Attention Span...
>On the
>one hand, it's ridiculous: there does not exist an eighteen-year-old
>anywhere in the world who would consider eating fruit prior to
>lunchtime to be an act of rebellion, and every time the show has Willow
>does something like that for the sake of a joke, she becomes more of an
>over-the-top caricature.
You thought she was being serious? I took that as a deliberate
self-caricature for humorous purposes. Remember what I said before
about how self-aware (or self-conscious) Willow is? And it's in line
with her previous comments about herself. ("Occasionally I'm callous
and strange", "I'm bad to the bone", "I'm a rebel")
>: Willow having trouble walking straight at first, her
>amusing attempt to play with a girl's hair, and the ending gag
>("yeah, humans do that").
And the fact that even Evil Vampire Willow retains her love of acting
like a schoolteacher... ("Questions? Comments?")
>There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
>to set up the Willows' confrontation.
Didn't she just forget something and run back to pick it up?
>watching her lick everyone in sight was starting to
>get old by the end of the show.
I can't remember. 'Everyone', or just the women?
>I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
>although I know they tried to explain. She's a killer with nothing
>left of the original person, right?
Damn. Who left the lid off this can of worms?
But when people argue over whether a vampire really is completely
distinct from the original human, it's this very episode which is
central to the arguments. Remember:
"It's horrible. That's me as a vampire? I mean, I'm so evil, and
skanky... and I think I'm kind of gay."
"Just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the
person it was."
"Well, actually --"
(Buffy glares at him. Angel hastily changes what he's about to say.)
"-- that's a good point."
>And now I'd
>like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
>I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
>be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
Don't worry, There will be no further references to this episode, and
no plotlines spun off as a consequence of it, and all the character
development we saw will be reversed by the next episode.
;)
(And for the love of God, don't do a Google Image Search on the phrase
"Evil Vampire Willow"...)
>4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
>actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
>G" Cohen.)
And why do Americans give boys' names to girls? (Although, as others
have said, Alexis Denisof is, like Joss himself, an American who was
educated for a time in Britain).
Also, if you have seen any publicity photos for later seasons of
_Angel_, you'll know that the character Wesley on that show looks
totally different to the Wesley in season 3 of Buffy...
Stephen
KenM47
Killing WILLOW who may be about to break into the Mayor's encrypted
files, not Buffy.
>
>A good portion of the setup (and subtext) is about Wil getting fed up
>with being the good one, the reliable one. Everyone's having these
>searches for identity lately. This contains a scene I'm going to use
>as my microcosm for the episode - the bit with the banana. On the
>one hand, it's ridiculous: there does not exist an eighteen-year-old
>anywhere in the world who would consider eating fruit prior to
>lunchtime to be an act of rebellion, and every time the show has Willow
>does something like that for the sake of a joke, she becomes more of an
>over-the-top caricature. On the other hand, it's ridiculous; insane
>enough to make me smile. There's a lot of that in
>"Dopplegangland." Stuff that one smiles at and then feels guilty
>about being amused, in a "fiddling while Rome burns" kinda way
>(except not so pretentious). The banana joke and others like it make
>this episode my first bonafide guilty pleasure - I enjoyed myself
>watching it, but I don't think that's a reflection of its actual
>quality.
The episode is nothing but quality. Written and Directed by Joss
Whedon means something here.
>
>This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid.
You misspelled "None of it is stupid." OK, the banana thing's a push,
but the whole episode is moving Willow on.
> Some of it
>is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
>actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
>that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
>with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
>"oh, hi, Willow" moment.
Worked for me.
>When something works, it can be enough to
>save a scene that was floundering. Prime example is Willow pretending
>to be her vamp/vamping twin at the Bronze. It goes on way too long,
No. it doesn't. You can state conclusions. So can I.
>but it's not so unpleasant to watch because a few of the little
>details are right: Willow having trouble walking straight at first, her
>amusing attempt to play with a girl's hair, and the ending gag
>("yeah, humans do that").
>
>There're some other moments that worked for me that way, so I'll
>list a few. "I'm storming off. It doesn't really work if you
>come with me."
Fun, but that was a reprise of a similar scene with Oz, in BatB I
think.
>"Well, did you try looking inside the sofa IN
>HELL?" The series of hugs ("oxygen becoming an issue..."). The
>discussion of how many unique chords a band should be expected to
>master. Cordelia's "like you could!" re: boyfriend-stealing.
>These bits help keep things lively, but they're not really enough
>content to make a particularly special episode either.
This IS a particularly special episode.
>
>Early on, I was loving the plot. I wouldn't have imagined that
>it'd be possible to do a sequel to TW, but I like the way Anya keeps
>scheming afterward, uses just the right incentive to recruit Willow,
>the use of clips from TW, the way Willow jumps into things but then
>gets cold feet, the way Anya then smoothly shifts gears to try to use
>Evil Willow, the way our Willow is able to keep her wits about her and
>get the jump on her evil self... there be some good ideas in that
>run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
>continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
>actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
>full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
It's an alternate reality that Anya somehow still knows about (BTW her
teaser line about "Mortal. Child. And I'm flunking math." set the tone
very nicely.) An alternate reality that the spell allows Willow to
glimpse. I see no retcon.
>
>There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
>to set up the Willows' confrontation.
Why "idiot"? Necessary and not glaringly false.
>Oh yeah, when I said that Evil Willow (or Wish!Willow, to use vague
>disclaimer's terminology)
Vamp Willow!!
> was fun enough to watch for long periods of
>time? I feel personally responsible for the excesses here. I didn't
>mean quite this long; as much as everyone loves the leather and the
>two-word sentences, watching her lick everyone in sight was starting to
>get old by the end of the show.
AH did an amazing job playing two credibly real characters, even in
nicely done FX scenes of them together.
>
>You know what else I'm tired of? Flossing references. I don't
>know where this became the ubiquitous "witty" way to refer to good
>behavior (not just in BTVS, all throughout pop-culture), but I'm sick
>of it.
I don't even recall it.
>
>I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
>although I know they tried to explain.
They're not forgiving. She's Willow. They just can't dust her where an
easily viable alternative presents itself that still removes her from
this reality.
> She's a killer with nothing
>left of the original person, right? But sending her right back to the
>moment where she gets killed is sort of a fitting end. And now I'd
>like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
>I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
>be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
I won't say. That would be a spoiler either way.
>
>This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
>- Faith bouncing on the bed and Wilkins' reaction
>- "Match? You want us to breed?"
>- There's something hilarious about Hannigan's delivery on "I
>think I'm kinda gay"
>- Evil Willow's "bored now" expression during her scene with Cordelia
>- "Turns out there were two president Roosevelts..."
All to the good. As was every other comic line and expression
throughout the show.
>
>A few more general/irrelevant takes:
>
>1) The early Willow/Oz exchange reminded me that I don't think
>they'd had any noteworthy scenes together since '98. That may not
>bode well...
No comment.
>
>2) Okay, show, you interpreted the reference to DS9's "Crossover"
>as a desire for Willow-on-Willow scenes, didn't you? I'll have you
>know that there was a lot more to that episode than Kira lusting after
>herself. You only aped the surface elements. So you're still
>"Through the Looking Glass," bitch. (And if you don't quit while
>you're ahead, you might end up as "Shattered Mirror," and I
>don't think anyone wants that.)
I never thought of a ST connection, but with Joss it's possible at
some level. Anyone have an interview or commentary to point to on
this?
>
>3) During the scene where Wesley saves Cordelia, a thought occurred to
>me that inspired, for the first time ever, a rot13 comment *within* an
>AOQ review (to avoid spoiling other newbs): Vfa'g bar bs gur znva
>punenpgref va gur Ohsslirefr, V guvax ba Natry'f frevrf, anzrq
>"Jrfyrl?" GUNG thl?
You're asking for a spoiler again. Not me when I can help it.
>
>4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
>actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
>G" Cohen.)
I don't think they're losing sleep over that.
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
>to get gross if you eat too much.
It's a multi-course gourmet meal.
>
>AOQ rating: Decent
Excellent (++)
>
I know I basically did black/white above. Couldn't help it. I think
this is a great episode.
Maybe you just missed it from the getgo with thinking the Mayor wanted
Buffy, not Willow killed. It's a great set-up for the rest of the
episode, the whole mistaken identity thing. I still love the episode
after repeated viewings.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>Your sense of humour is broken.
I was thinking that.
>
>The main redeeming quality of 'The Wish' is that it made
>'Doppelgangland' possible.
I was thinking that too, but I still liked The Wish for other reasons.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting parallel
>universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
>destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
>but now it appears that all that happens is that he returned Buffyverse
>Cordelia and the camera crew to their rightful place, and condemned Anyanka
>(there seems to be only one) to "failing math". Wishverse Cordelia came off
>worse though - she would have been returned to her universe only to find she
>was now dead and cremated.
Not seeing this. Vamp Willow gets pulled from the Wish-verse before
she's dusted, and returned to that moment. Both times that's before
Giles destroys the amulet bringing that reality to an end.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>And the fact that even Evil Vampire Willow retains her love of acting
>like a schoolteacher... ("Questions? Comments?")
LOL. I never thought of it that way. Thanks.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Apteryx
news:sh9a225n633dbtot2...@4ax.com...
The issue is, how many Gileses are there, and how many Willows?
From The Wish alone, I would have said there was one of each only. Only one
universe, but that universe's reality was changed by the wish from a time
shortly before WTTH. Giles (the only Giles there is) changes it back to its
original course by destroying the amulet.
But that theory is disproved by Doppelgangland. We see two Willows together.
So there must be two parallel universes, diverging from that time shortly
before WTTH, each with its own Willow, and apparently a full set of other
characters. Buffyverse Cordelia visited that universe when she made the
wish, and despite dying there, was returned alive to the Buffyverse at just
about the point she left it.
The characters in Dopplegangland certainly believe that the Wishverse is a
seperate and parallel universe from which Anya's amulet can be extracted and
Vamp Willow returned. Now I suppose it is theoretically possible that that
Wish universe was only created by the Wish from the time we first see it,
and that its populations memories of a past we do not witness are magically
implanted. But magically implanted memories are such a cheesy plot device,
and believing that a universe exists only while one observes it is just a
bit solipsistic.
--
Apteryx
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> it'd be possible to do a sequel to TW, but I like the way Anya keeps
> scheming afterward, uses just the right incentive to recruit Willow,
> the use of clips from TW, the way Willow jumps into things but then
> gets cold feet, the way Anya then smoothly shifts gears to try to use
> Evil Willow, the way our Willow is able to keep her wits about her and
> get the jump on her evil self... there be some good ideas in that
> run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
> continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
Actually, for me it wasn't even a retcon. The reality wherein Vampire
Willow came from ceased to exist at the moment Anyanka's amulet was
destroyed. Therefor the only place to pull evil Willow from was the
moment before that cessation, and the only place to send her back to
was equally before that cessation. The only way she could have
continued to exist was to stay in this world, and there was no room for
her here.
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> 3) During the scene where Wesley saves Cordelia, a thought occurred to
> me that inspired, for the first time ever, a rot13 comment *within* an
> AOQ review (to avoid spoiling other newbs): Vfa'g bar bs gur znva
> punenpgref va gur Ohsslirefr, V guvax ba Natry'f frevrf, anzrq
> "Jrfyrl?" GUNG thl?
Yep. That guy.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In 'Bad Girls' Faith grabs Finch, and raises her stake. Buffy cries
> "Faith! No!" but Faith stakes him anyway.
>
> In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
> Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*. If you compare the timing,
> where the "No!" is cried, you see that Faith should have been able to
> stop herself, if she'd been paying any attention to what Buffy was
> saying at the time.
Sure but it's no moral failure on Faith's part not to pay attention to
Buffy while she's battling vampires.
Or put another way, the fact that she wasn't paying attention to Buffy
doesn't elevate Finch's death from manslaughter to murder. (Personally,
given the realities of the Buffy universe, I wouldn't even rule Finch's
death to be manslaughter. More like "death by misadventure", a true
accident. Now the later cover-up by both Buffy and Faith-- that's a
felony.)
KenM47
I think you have a point with the two Willows (why do I keep thinking
The Five Doctors?) existing at the same point in the same reality.
It doesn't trouble me because magic (temporal folds and magic powder
sprinkled on the wrong item) is involved and I can accept it here for
the purpose of the show and, IMO, it is not inconsistent with anything
else we've seen. I still accept the Wish-verse as an alternate
reality. This is realty The Wish Part 2, and another cautionary be
careful what you wish for story, here Anya's wish to recover something
lost in the Wish-verse is the one that backfires (cerggl zhpu n
pbafvfgrag gurzr gung zntvp naq jvfurf ner abg nafjref hagvy jr trg gb
gur HCA lrnef).
YMMV, but I can overlook any little problems for the greatness of this
episode.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Michael Ikeda
news:dpga22dntg9ia1oos...@4ax.com:
(snipped)
> It doesn't trouble me because magic (temporal folds and magic
> powder sprinkled on the wrong item) is involved and I can accept
> it here for the purpose of the show and, IMO, it is not
> inconsistent with anything else we've seen. I still accept the
> Wish-verse as an alternate reality. This is realty The Wish Part
> 2, and another cautionary be careful what you wish for story,
> here Anya's wish to recover something lost in the Wish-verse is
> the one that backfires (cerggl zhpu n pbafvfgrag gurzr gung
> zntvp naq jvfurf ner abg nafjref hagvy jr trg gb gur HCA lrnef).
>
Frnfbaf Fvk naq Frira qb ABG unir n qvssrerag ivrjcbvag sebz gur
cerivbhf frnfbaf nobhg gur hfrshyarff bs zntvp. Va nyy frira frnfbaf,
zntvp vf cerfragrq nf fbzrguvat juvpu pna or obgu hfrshy naq qnatrebhf.
Hfvat vg nccebcevngryl gb qrny jvgu gur fhcreangheny vf trarenyyl
cbegenlrq nf zber yvxryl gb or hfrshy. Hfvat vg gb gel gb qrny jvgu
zhaqnar ceboyrzf vf trarenyyl cbegenlrq nf zber yvxryl gb or qnatrebhf.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
KenM47
>KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>news:dpga22dntg9ia1oos...@4ax.com:
>
>(snipped)
>
>> It doesn't trouble me because magic (temporal folds and magic
>> powder sprinkled on the wrong item) is involved and I can accept
>> it here for the purpose of the show and, IMO, it is not
>> inconsistent with anything else we've seen. I still accept the
>> Wish-verse as an alternate reality. This is realty The Wish Part
>> 2, and another cautionary be careful what you wish for story,
>> here Anya's wish to recover something lost in the Wish-verse is
>> the one that backfires (cerggl zhpu n pbafvfgrag gurzr gung
>> zntvp naq jvfurf ner abg nafjref hagvy jr trg gb gur HCA lrnef).
>>
>
>Frnfbaf Fvk naq Frira qb ABG unir n qvssrerag ivrjcbvag sebz gur
>cerivbhf frnfbaf nobhg gur hfrshyarff bs zntvp. Va nyy frira frnfbaf,
>zntvp vf cerfragrq nf fbzrguvat juvpu pna or obgu hfrshy naq qnatrebhf.
>Hfvat vg nccebcevngryl gb qrny jvgu gur fhcreangheny vf trarenyyl
>cbegenlrq nf zber yvxryl gb or hfrshy. Hfvat vg gb gel gb qrny jvgu
>zhaqnar ceboyrzf vf trarenyyl cbegenlrq nf zber yvxryl gb or qnatrebhf.
I don't want to get into this in any detail right now, but two things
1. Zntvp oevatf Ohssl onpx gb yvsr.
2. Vs lbh oryvrir va gur Fbhydhrfg, gura Fcvxr orpbzrf gur bayl
punenpgre, VVEP, jub trgf jung ur jvfurq sbe.
Ken (Brooklyn)
vmac...@yahoo.com
taste is subjective after all. Frankly, between your love of comedy
[smiley emoticon] and Mrs. Q's love of Willow [extra-smiley emoticon]
I'm pleased to see you rated it as high as you did.
I myself am willing to accept any logic lapses as essential to an Evil
Twin story. Releasing VampWillow back into the wild may be
questionable, but I can justify it as an equivalent to travelling back
in time and avoiding stepping on a bug.
For such a light fluffy show about the undead, VWillow's 'who do you
work for' line of questioning really makes me cringe.
There're so many great bits in this one - I'll throw in:
- "Geez, who died? ...oh god. Who died?" Not a casual line to toss
around in these parts.
- Willow's reaction (with noise) to Giles' hug.
- Group reaction to Willow's sarcastic 'admission' to bondage fun with
Oz.
- Group reaction to Angel's "Willow's dead." Shrug, 'oh, right. that.'
- The only way ever I'd laugh at Willow being socked: by herself, after
the line "No more snuggles?"
VMacek
Espen Schjønberg
> Don Sample wrote:
>
>>> When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
>>>"oh, hi, Willow" moment.
>>
>>Oh come on! That was great!
>
>
> Thud.
I am prbably one of the very few other fans to agree with the "thud".
But i do. Perhaps a better actor than Boreanaz would have made it fly.
But he surely does not.
>>Almost as good as Xander shaking the cross, and then trying it again to
>>see if that fixed it.
>
>
> Now that's funny. As is pretty much that whole scenelet.
Now that's not funny, thats divine genious.
>>In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
>>Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*.
Hence, the wrong decision is not the Slayrs, at least. Cause it is a
wrong decision.
You may fan-wank it: it is a right decision if you want to undo every
spell the Wishverse-spells has done, if they _had_ staked the evil
vampire, this may have been impossible.
And btw, that was not "decent".
The episode is excellent.
You're humor does not resemble our earth humor. ;-)
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
> (or "Evil-twin stories are also eleven hundred and twenty years
> old")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
My personal favourite episode - which is not the same as saying I think
it is the best. My Favourite List and my Best List are related, but
quite separate.
> I thought I was safe calling "The Wish," of all episodes,
> "inconsequential." You folks must've had a good laugh, huh?
> Joss must be trying to make me look bad. (Throughout this review
> I'll be using, more often than usual, the device of pretending that
> anything I write has the potential to impact things filmed seven years
> ago. It's just a writer-ey thing.) Anyway, this one seems even more
> like inconsequential fluff than TW (at this point, anyway), so let's
> see if I can generate enough thoughts to fill a few pages.
>
> The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
> Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
> gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence. See, I thought
> this was weird since the vibe I'd gotten from "Consequences" was
> that she was done hanging out at SHS (she doesn't actually go to
> school, right?), with the Watchers still hunting for her. Instead it
> seems like Giles and Wesley are fine with her being around. Doesn't
> sit right with me. Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
> killing Buffy
Willow. And the Mayor was quick to realise that even that was still a
tad to close to home. The Mayor is playing Faith very skillfully.
> might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
> whose side she's on, if any.
>
> A good portion of the setup (and subtext) is about Wil getting fed up
> with being the good one, the reliable one. Everyone's having these
> searches for identity lately. This contains a scene I'm going to use
> as my microcosm for the episode - the bit with the banana. On the
> one hand, it's ridiculous: there does not exist an eighteen-year-old
> anywhere in the world who would consider eating fruit prior to
> lunchtime to be an act of rebellion,
I know people even older to whom doing anything outside the appointed
hour is at least vaguely naughty. And this is Willow rebelling against
her self image anyway.
> and every time the show has Willow
> does something like that for the sake of a joke, she becomes more of an
> over-the-top caricature. On the other hand, it's ridiculous; insane
> enough to make me smile. There's a lot of that in
> "Dopplegangland." Stuff that one smiles at and then feels guilty
> about being amused, in a "fiddling while Rome burns" kinda way
> (except not so pretentious). The banana joke and others like it make
> this episode my first bonafide guilty pleasure - I enjoyed myself
> watching it, but I don't think that's a reflection of its actual
> quality.
>
> This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid. Some of it
> is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
> actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
> that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
> with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
It was the double-take that made that bit. You did't happen to do a
bunch of drugs, did ya?
<snip>
And add:
WILLOW: (rolls her eyes, grins sardonically) Oh, right. Me and Oz play
'Mistress of Pain' every night.
XANDER: Did anyone else just go to a scary visual place?
> There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
> to set up the Willows' confrontation.
Nothing idiot - Willow thought vamp!Willow could be captured.
> Oh yeah, when I said that Evil Willow (or Wish!Willow,
Vamp!Willow
> to use vague
> disclaimer's terminology) was fun enough to watch for long periods of
> time? I feel personally responsible for the excesses here. I didn't
> mean quite this long; as much as everyone loves the leather
Now you're getting it (we all have our priorities, right?)
> and the
> two-word sentences, watching her lick everyone in sight was starting to
> get old by the end of the show.
You're just *so* wrong.
> I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
> although I know they tried to explain.
Think of it as a meta-commentary about identity and individualism.
>She's a killer with nothing
> left of the original person, right?
No. That was clearly stated not to be the case. But it is still more a
commentary.
> But sending her right back to the
> moment where she gets killed is sort of a fitting end.
A new shot, not just re-use. Vamp!Willow was scripted as saying "Oh,
Fine!", but only got to the F.
> And now I'd
> like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
> I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
> be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Faith bouncing on the bed and Wilkins' reaction
> - "Match? You want us to breed?"
And Percy's simian face scratching in the same scene. Marvellous
attention to detail from the director (who he?) there.
> - There's something hilarious about Hannigan's delivery on "I
> think I'm kinda gay"
> - Evil Willow's "bored now" expression during her scene with Cordelia
> - "Turns out there were two president Roosevelts..."
>
> A few more general/irrelevant takes:
>
> 1) The early Willow/Oz exchange reminded me that I don't think
> they'd had any noteworthy scenes together since '98. That may not
> bode well...
It may not. Or it may set up something kinda cool
> 2) Okay, show, you interpreted the reference to DS9's "Crossover"
> as a desire for Willow-on-Willow scenes, didn't you? I'll have you
> know that there was a lot more to that episode than Kira lusting after
> herself. You only aped the surface elements. So you're still
> "Through the Looking Glass," bitch. (And if you don't quit while
> you're ahead, you might end up as "Shattered Mirror," and I
> don't think anyone wants that.)
I'm afraid you will have to translate that into English for some of us.
> 3) During the scene where Wesley saves Cordelia, a thought occurred to
> me that inspired, for the first time ever, a rot13 comment *within* an
> AOQ review (to avoid spoiling other newbs): Vfa'g bar bs gur znva
> punenpgref va gur Ohsslirefr, V guvax ba Natry'f frevrf, anzrq
> "Jrfyrl?" GUNG thl?
>
> 4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
> actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
> G" Cohen.)
I think you'll find Alexis is an East Euorpean name (like Denisof).
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> to get gross if you eat too much.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
See above.
>
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
vague disclaimer
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Quite. Anya didn't lie about how the spell worked, just what its
objective was.
Shuggie
> of plotholes is inversely proportional to how engaged one is in the
> episode as a whole.
>
As I'm always saying, no-one ever said, "I loved that episode - it had
no plot holes".
--
Shuggie
vague disclaimer
>
> Almost as good as Xander shaking the cross, and then trying it again to
> see if that fixed it.
Thanks a bunch Don. It's just taken me 5 minutes to recover from the fit
of giggles remembering that. And I only rewatched it yesterday.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
> (or "Evil-twin stories are also eleven hundred and twenty years
> old")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> "inconsequential." You folks must've had a good laugh, huh?
> Joss must be trying to make me look bad. (Throughout this review
> I'll be using, more often than usual, the device of pretending that
> anything I write has the potential to impact things filmed seven years
> ago. It's just a writer-ey thing.) Anyway, this one seems even more
> like inconsequential fluff than TW (at this point, anyway), so let's
> see if I can generate enough thoughts to fill a few pages.
Sorry I haven't been commenting but some major personal life stuff
happened and it's taken me awhile to get back into the commenting mood.
I'm still linking to your reviews on my LJ and getting a lot of response.
I had a feeling when you gave TW a decent this one wouldn't rate much
higher for you. Vamp! Willow was interesting the first time around but
the second time, when we get to see real Willow pretend to be Vamp!
Willow - that my friend, is priceless.
>
> The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
> Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
> gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence. See, I thought
> this was weird since the vibe I'd gotten from "Consequences" was
> that she was done hanging out at SHS (she doesn't actually go to
> school, right?), with the Watchers still hunting for her. Instead it
> seems like Giles and Wesley are fine with her being around. Doesn't
> sit right with me. Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
> killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
> whose side she's on, if any.
A brief moment of doubt yes, but Faith is too far gone here I think.
>
<snip>
>
> This show is full of odd humor. Not all of it is stupid. Some of it
> is cadence. Jokes get delivered at strange times with weird rhythms...
> actually, the scenes themselves tend to be full of that awkwardness
> that can be either funny or cringe-worthy, and the humor goes along
> with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> "oh, hi, Willow" moment. When something works, it can be enough to
> save a scene that was floundering. Prime example is Willow pretending
> to be her vamp/vamping twin at the Bronze. It goes on way too long,
> but it's not so unpleasant to watch because a few of the little
> details are right: Willow having trouble walking straight at first, her
> amusing attempt to play with a girl's hair, and the ending gag
> ("yeah, humans do that").
The funniest sight gag of the entire episode was her little wave to Oz
in the Bronze when she was trying to be bad. Ha. Also, I loved the
signal to let the others know to come storming in. Funny stuff. I give
this episode a 'good' instead of 'decent' but it still doesn't reach
'excellent' status in my book.
>
<snip>
>
> Early on, I was loving the plot. I wouldn't have imagined that
> it'd be possible to do a sequel to TW, but I like the way Anya keeps
> scheming afterward, uses just the right incentive to recruit Willow,
> the use of clips from TW, the way Willow jumps into things but then
> gets cold feet, the way Anya then smoothly shifts gears to try to use
> Evil Willow, the way our Willow is able to keep her wits about her and
> get the jump on her evil self... there be some good ideas in that
> run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
> continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
Well, considering it was Anya that caused the first AU to come into play
it only makes sense that by screwing up the spell to bring back the
necklace (that was destroyed within that world) that she could
inadvertently pull Vamp! Willow out of that same world instead. I don't
see it as a retcon at all, to me it's perfect continuity.
>
<snip>
>
> I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
> although I know they tried to explain. She's a killer with nothing
> left of the original person, right? But sending her right back to the
> moment where she gets killed is sort of a fitting end. And now I'd
> like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
> I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
> be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
She's not from their world, by simply killing her they could alter the
entire course of that world's history. Even if it will never affect them
directly, that is some pretty heavy stuff. Vamp! Willow wants to go home
and they want her out of there, so they do the right thing.
>
<snip>
>One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> to get gross if you eat too much.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
Since I'm so far behind, I'll give you a one very brief comment for each.
> [Season Three so far:
> 1) "Anne" - Decent
The Ghandi joke made this episode for me.
> 2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
I'll give this a decent, but only because I live in the Zombie capital
of the world. Also, could this thread BE any longer. Whoa!
> 3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
Faith is my second favorite Slayer.
> 4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
Snarling Angel, domestic violence, and schmoop. Decent it is.
> 5) "Homecoming" - Good
A spatula is never a good weapon.
> 6) "Band Candy" - Weak
Hee! Giles and Joyce were hysterical in this. Also, we learn that Buffy
sucks at driving. I give it a good.
> 7) "Revelations" - Good
Mind. Blank. Will have to rewatch.
> 8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent
We are in complete agreement here. A heartbroken Spike, is a funny
Spike. Also, best sight gag of the series is Spike taunting Angel behind
Joyce's back. Makes me laugh, every time.
> 9) "The Wish" - Decent
Bad ass, cold hearted AU Buffy. Puppy Angel and Vamp! Willow... what's
not to love? Good stuff.
> 10) "Amends" - Good
Schmoop de doop. I enjoyed this episode but seriously, if B and A spewed
out any more mushy words of love, I think I would have tossed my cookies.
> 11) "Gingerbread" - Good
I've only seen this episode twice. Once on first broadcast, and once on
DVD. The only thing good about it was Amy the rat.
> 12) "Helpless" - Excellent
A vampire with a migraine issue, how convenient. Other than that, I
really enjoyed it. However, it would have been more interesting to see
Buffy best a normal vamp without a need for medication and the all too
obvious plot device.
> 13) "The Zeppo" - Decent
I have to give this one a 'good'. I love a show that can poke fun at
itself.
> 14) "Bad Girls" - Good
And Faith's downward spiral begins.
> 15) "Consequences" - Excellent
Good stuff here. Faith wants to be the accepted one so much, and when
she isn't... bad things happen.
> 16) "Dopplegangland" - Decent]
P.S. AOQ, I give you this prezzie for all your reviews so far....
http://s29.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1T3PZ4R9VC6KB31P8NC22IU1M3 (warning:
4 PJ spoilers)
>
John Briggs
>
> One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> to get gross if you eat too much.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I think you're overlooking it being a showreel for Alyson Hannigan. She
effectively plays four parts:
1. Willow
2. Evil Vampire Willow
3. Evil Vampire Willow pretending to be Willow - as successfully as a low
boredom threshold will allow...
4. Willow pretending to be Evil Vampire Willow - remarkably
unconvincingly...
--
John Briggs
drifter
> I was always curious why they completely redressed vamp!Willow
> in Willow's clothes, right down to the tights and shoes.
Because if they hadn't, we'd have had to see a naked Vamp Willow,
and who wants that?
Oh. . . wait a minute. . .
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
KenM47
>Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>
>> I was always curious why they completely redressed vamp!Willow
>> in Willow's clothes, right down to the tights and shoes.
>
>Because if they hadn't, we'd have had to see a naked Vamp Willow,
>and who wants that?
>
>Oh. . . wait a minute. . .
I can fanwank that (what?).
I mean, the ones who probably were in charge of stripping and
redressing her would have been Buffy and Willow. Buffy might have a
sense of decency, but our Willow would be obsessive enough to feel a
need to fully dress VampWillow in her clothes, IMO.
Ken (Brooklyn)
drifter
> The issue is, how many Gileses are there, and how many Willows?
>
> From The Wish alone, I would have said there was one of each only.
> Only one universe, but that universe's reality was changed by the
> wish from a time shortly before WTTH. Giles (the only Giles there is)
> changes it back to its original course by destroying the amulet.
>
> But that theory is disproved by Doppelgangland. We see two Willows
> together. So there must be two parallel universes, diverging from
> that time shortly before WTTH, each with its own Willow, and
> apparently a full set of other characters. Buffyverse Cordelia
> visited that universe when she made the wish, and despite dying
> there, was returned alive to the Buffyverse at just about the point
> she left it.
Which brings up the question of "Where is the Wishverse Cordelia?"
The Cordelia we see in the Wishverse was FROM the original Buffy-
verse. She didn't know what was going on, and didn't remember any
of the history of the Wishverse, which should have started from about
WTTH. Yet she had to have "lived" through that history, since everyone
knew who she was. The history she remembered was from the original
Buffyverse. So, where is the Wishverse Cordy?
> The characters in Dopplegangland certainly believe that the Wishverse
> is a seperate
Meaningless almost-rant: "separate." Only put it in here because of Don's
spelling note on Dopplegangland/Doppelgangland. So, yes, blame Don.
Carlos Moreno
> 3) During the scene where Wesley saves Cordelia, a thought occurred to
> me that inspired, for the first time ever, a rot13 comment *within* an
> AOQ review (to avoid spoiling other newbs): Vfa'g bar bs gur znva
> punenpgref va gur Ohsslirefr, V guvax ba Natry'f frevrf, anzrq
> "Jrfyrl?" GUNG thl?
Well... It's not what you think ;-)
Carlos
--
vague disclaimer
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Frireny punengpref tbg jung gurl jvfurq sbe. Gurl whfg arire nccerpvngrq
gur fnlvat "Or pnershy jung lbh jvfu sbe, orpnhfr lbh avtug whfg trg vg"
(naq gung nccyvrf gb Fcvxr nf jryy, nf Svefg!Znlbe cbvagrqyl rkcynvarq).
Carlos Moreno
> AOQ rating: Decent
Say, you didn't happen to do a bunch of drugs, did you?
Carlos
--
vmac...@yahoo.com
>I think you're overlooking it being a showreel for Alyson Hannigan. She
>effectively plays four parts:
>1. Willow
>2. Evil Vampire Willow
>3. Evil Vampire Willow pretending to be Willow - as successfully as a low
>boredom threshold will allow...
>4. Willow pretending to be Evil Vampire Willow - remarkably
>unconvincingly...
I would've given Aly four Emmys for this show. Love the delivery in EVW
pretending to be W - "Let me out...'cause I'm so helpless." and
"Books...I like books. ...'cause I'm *shy*." A real loathing of her
former self comes through.
VMacek
Stephen Tempest
>AH did an amazing job playing two credibly real characters,
*Four* credibly real characters:
Willow
Vamp Willow
Vamp Willow pretending to be Willow
Willow pretending to be Vamp Willow
Stephen
Espen Schjønberg
>
> Which brings up the question of "Where is the Wishverse Cordelia?"
> The Cordelia we see in the Wishverse was FROM the original Buffy-
> verse. She didn't know what was going on, and didn't remember any
> of the history of the Wishverse, which should have started from about
> WTTH. Yet she had to have "lived" through that history, since everyone
> knew who she was. The history she remembered was from the original
> Buffyverse. So, where is the Wishverse Cordy?
This is one of the major mistakes in the Wish. The writer is not really
caring about the story. Now, we are talking about an old show yes, but
it would be nice to ask them not to let this writer get to much power
over the series...
The Wishverse Cordy is gone, and the buffyverse Cordy is killed, and
magically resurrected. That could make sense, but it is not right, is
it? If our world had continued with Wishverse Cordy, I would have been
less angry about the writing here.
--
Espen
Stephen Tempest
>Well, considering it was Anya that caused the first AU to come into play
>it only makes sense that by screwing up the spell to bring back the
>necklace (that was destroyed within that world) that she could
>inadvertently pull Vamp! Willow out of that same world instead.
*Anya* didn't screw up the spell at all. Willow was supposed to pour
the magic glitter dust onto the picture of the necklace, but spilled
it on herself instead. So what the spell brought out of the other
universe wasn't the necklace...
Stephen
Mel
Or maybe there was always only one Cordy because the Wishverse didn't
exist until Anya created it. Since Cordy is the one making the wish,
there would be no reason to create another Cordy along with everyone
else. In this case, Wishverse Cordy and Buffyverse Cordy are the same
person.
Mel
KenM47
KenM47
If you insist. :-)
Two or four, amazing either way.
Have I said how much I love this episode (even if I can't spell it
correctly)?
Ken (Brooklyn)
vmac...@yahoo.com
->On the
>one hand, it's ridiculous: there does not exist an eighteen-year-old
>anywhere in the world who would consider eating fruit prior to
>lunchtime to be an act of rebellion, and every time the show has Willow
>does something like that for the sake of a joke, she becomes more of an
>over-the-top caricature.
You thought she was being serious? I took that as a deliberate
self-caricature for humorous purposes. Remember what I said before
about how self-aware (or self-conscious) Willow is? And it's in line
with her previous comments about herself. ("Occasionally I'm callous
and strange", "I'm bad to the bone", "I'm a rebel") -
I can't believe people don't see how important the banana is to Willow!
Here she's been browbeaten not only by the expected parties - the
evil-gnome principal and the silver-spoon jock - but Giles
matter-of-factly orders her to do computer work, her boyfriend assumes
her not to be up for a road trip, and now her two best buds write her
off as Old Reliable. She has to take a stand somewhere, and on this
banana she wll stand, dammit!
VMacek
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-119699...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In 'Bad Girls' Faith grabs Finch, and raises her stake. Buffy cries
> > "Faith! No!" but Faith stakes him anyway.
> >
> > In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
> > Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*. If you compare the timing,
> > where the "No!" is cried, you see that Faith should have been able to
> > stop herself, if she'd been paying any attention to what Buffy was
> > saying at the time.
>
> Sure but it's no moral failure on Faith's part not to pay attention to
> Buffy while she's battling vampires.
But not paying attention to what's going on around you in a fight is a
failure.
> Or put another way, the fact that she wasn't paying attention to Buffy
> doesn't elevate Finch's death from manslaughter to murder. (Personally,
> given the realities of the Buffy universe, I wouldn't even rule Finch's
> death to be manslaughter. More like "death by misadventure", a true
> accident. Now the later cover-up by both Buffy and Faith-- that's a
> felony.)
Faith acting without due caution is what elevates Finch's death from
being a tragic accident to manslaughter.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
KenM47
>In article <btr1702-748F03...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <dsample-119699...@news.giganews.com>,
>> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In 'Bad Girls' Faith grabs Finch, and raises her stake. Buffy cries
>> > "Faith! No!" but Faith stakes him anyway.
>> >
>> > In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
>> > Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*. If you compare the timing,
>> > where the "No!" is cried, you see that Faith should have been able to
>> > stop herself, if she'd been paying any attention to what Buffy was
>> > saying at the time.
>>
>> Sure but it's no moral failure on Faith's part not to pay attention to
>> Buffy while she's battling vampires.
>
>But not paying attention to what's going on around you in a fight is a
>failure.
>
>> Or put another way, the fact that she wasn't paying attention to Buffy
>> doesn't elevate Finch's death from manslaughter to murder. (Personally,
>> given the realities of the Buffy universe, I wouldn't even rule Finch's
>> death to be manslaughter. More like "death by misadventure", a true
>> accident. Now the later cover-up by both Buffy and Faith-- that's a
>> felony.)
>
>Faith acting without due caution is what elevates Finch's death from
>being a tragic accident to manslaughter.
There's only one Buffy. I'm still of the view that something more than
special, something the CoW never counted on, happened when Buffy was
bit by The Master, some infection from him, something that made her
stronger.
We get to see that two other Slayers just don't measure up to Buffy
(one's dead, and the other has killed a human in other than self
defense), because of that, because of whatever makes Buffy Buffy,
because of family and friends, whatever.
Faith is just not the equal Slayer of Buffy. Close, but no cigar.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
> > The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
> > Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
> > gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence.
>
> Remarkably tolerant in one respect and very forgiving in another.
> Willow being the only exception, I was shocked that Xander wasn't
> more........put off.
We never see Faith and Xander in the same scene in this episode, nor
does anyone talk about her while he's around. Maybe he's avoiding her,
and they're avoiding the subject of her in front of him.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
It's been a LONG time since I watched this episode. I forgot the
specific details but the point about the AU world is still valid.
KenM47
>In article <1143282806....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> > Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
>
>> > The characters at least pay lip service to our big stories. Mayor
>> > Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
>> > gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence.
>>
>> Remarkably tolerant in one respect and very forgiving in another.
>> Willow being the only exception, I was shocked that Xander wasn't
>> more........put off.
>
>We never see Faith and Xander in the same scene in this episode, nor
>does anyone talk about her while he's around. Maybe he's avoiding her,
>and they're avoiding the subject of her in front of him.
One mention, as they're all going off to the Bronze to battle
VampWillow and her minions:
"Buffy <to Giles>: Should we call Faith?
Giles: No, I don’t want her in combat yet. Not
around civilians.
Xander <heartily>: Hear, hear."
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> >There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
> >to set up the Willows' confrontation.
>
> Didn't she just forget something and run back to pick it up?
She went back to get the tranquillizer gun
>
>
> >And now I'd
> >like to suggest that this should be the end of the Mastersville story.
> >I do think it's served its purpose, and that any further visits would
> >be tiresome. I've been wrong before, of course.
>
> Don't worry, There will be no further references to this episode, and
> no plotlines spun off as a consequence of it, and all the character
> development we saw will be reversed by the next episode.
> ;)
>
> (And for the love of God, don't do a Google Image Search on the phrase
> "Evil Vampire Willow"...)
Or do do that image search. (You'll find spoilers for future seasons
though.)
Arbitrar Of Quality
"What's My Line" seems to argue that what makes Buffy Buffy is the kind
of attachments and connections she has, which are the kind of things
the Watchers are so wary of. It's open to debate, but that's more
interesting to me than the super-Slayer idea. And it doesn't even have
to be a quality-comparison thing. For whatever reason, Buffy has
repeatedly shown a willingness to not kill under certain circumstances;
her hand can be stayed where others Slayers' wouldn't be.
All of this has led Buffy to make what some might view as mistakes
(mostly concerning Angel), but I'd still say her qualities are good
ones to have overall, especially if you're struggling to stay human in
a superhuman world.
-AOQ
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 16: "Dopplegangland"
> old")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
I was afraid you'd rip on Doppelgangland! As I was catching up on your
earlier reviews, I noticed you generally don't like funny-but-silly
episodes. Of course, everybody has their own preferences, but this is one
I generally don't share. For example, you hated BBB, which I thought was
hilarious and contained some important character development. You didn't
much care for NKABOTFD and Puppet Show, which I think are two of the better
season 1 episodes. You didn't like Band Candy, which I ... don't consider
one of the better season 3 episodes, but still enjoyed very much. And now
Doppelgangland, which I'd certainly put in my top 5 favorite episodes,
maybe in the top 3. It's funny enough to make me forget any number of plot
holes, plus anything with this much Willow MUST be good. I'm glad you
seemed to like Doppelgangland better than some of those others above,
despite the silliness. That's a tribute to just how funny of an episode it
is, and how great AH is.
Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the Firefly eps Our Mrs. Reynolds
and Jaynestown? They're probably Firefly's closest approach to
funny-but-silly.
> Wilkins' pet Slayer shows up early to hang out with and spy on the
> gang, who seem remarkably tolerant of her presence. See, I thought
> this was weird since the vibe I'd gotten from "Consequences" was
> that she was done hanging out at SHS (she doesn't actually go to
> school, right?), with the Watchers still hunting for her. Instead it
> seems like Giles and Wesley are fine with her being around.
I agree there -- IMO this is the weakest element in the whole episode. They
could have partially fixed this just by adding a quick line where Wesley or
Giles tells everyone to be friendly to Faith, to try to draw her away from
her recent destructive behavior. At least they had Buffy and Willow's talk
in the teaser and Xander's "hear hear."
> sit right with me. Meanwhile, her reaction to the suggestion of
> killing Buffy might imply that perhaps she's still not quite sure
> whose side she's on, if any.
Others have already pointed out that the target was Willow. I thought it
was Buffy too until the second or third time I watched this episode. I
read this scene as meaning that she has *consciously* chosen the Mayor's
side, but still isn't really evil on a gut level. Not so much uncertain
as conflicted, if that's a distinction worth making.
> searches for identity lately. This contains a scene I'm going to use
> as my microcosm for the episode - the bit with the banana. On the
I think Willow's banana bit wasn't her attempt at rebellion, it was her
mocking herself for never getting more rebellious than that. (But had she
forgotten she was dating a musician?)
> with that. When something doesn't work, it thuds, like Angel's
> "oh, hi, Willow" moment.
I'm in the non-thud category here. Admittedly DB's delivery here isn't
quite as good as the others in the scene.
> continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
Oh, it's defnitely a retcon. Some disagree, but I think The Wish was
defnitely written as having a single universe that switches between wish
and non-wish versions. Didn't much bother me though. (Gubhtu vg cebonoyl
jbhyq unir fgnegrq gb obgure zr vs vg pbagvahrq gb or na vffhr va ahzrebhf
rcvfbqrf.)
> I really don't see why our heroes were so forgiving of Evil Willow,
> although I know they tried to explain. She's a killer with nothing
> left of the original person, right? But sending her right back to the
> moment where she gets killed is sort of a fitting end.
It was really only Willow who was so tolerant of VampWillow; the others
just followed her lead. I would agree that this is a bit of a moral lapse
on Willow's part. (Abg hayvxr gur bar pbzvat hc va Cnatf, jurer fur
erznvaf sbphfrq ba uvfgbevpny jebatf rira nf obqvrf cvyr hc va gur
cerfrag.)
> 4) How am I supposed to keep track of who plays whom when British male
> actors have these feminine names like Alexis? (Also see: Sascha "Ali
> G" Cohen.)
Sasha isn't an exclusively feminine name. It's taken from the Russian,
where Sasha is short for both the male Aleksandr and the female Aleksandra.
It's kind of the Chris of Russia.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
KenM47
Good points. For whatever reason I've always had that PG post-CPR "No,
I feel strong. I feel different" nagging away. You're probably right
that that's not the secret ingredient, more the family and friends
that Spike noted in SH.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I won't quibble on your completely WRONG 'Decent' rating for this one;
> taste is subjective after all. Frankly, between your love of comedy
> [smiley emoticon] and Mrs. Q's love of Willow [extra-smiley emoticon]
> I'm pleased to see you rated it as high as you did.
Actually, in case I've given the wrong impression, she doesn't dislike
Willow, although she thought she was a little too pathetic early on (I
think the haircut did a lot for her opinion of the character too).
I liked DGL better than she did, though. She was "only watching it
because it's _Buffy_," whereas I thought it was clearly much better
than the ones we think of as bad-comedy episodes (like 3B or BC).
-AOQ
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-748F03...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <dsample-119699...@news.giganews.com>,
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In 'Bad Girls' Faith grabs Finch, and raises her stake. Buffy cries
> > > "Faith! No!" but Faith stakes him anyway.
> > >
> > > In 'Doppelgängland' Buffy grabs Evil!Willow, and raises her stake.
> > > Willow cries "Buffy! No!" and Buffy *stops*. If you compare the timing,
> > > where the "No!" is cried, you see that Faith should have been able to
> > > stop herself, if she'd been paying any attention to what Buffy was
> > > saying at the time.
> >
> > Sure but it's no moral failure on Faith's part not to pay attention to
> > Buffy while she's battling vampires.
>
> But not paying attention to what's going on around you in a fight is a
> failure.
>
> > Or put another way, the fact that she wasn't paying attention to Buffy
> > doesn't elevate Finch's death from manslaughter to murder. (Personally,
> > given the realities of the Buffy universe, I wouldn't even rule Finch's
> > death to be manslaughter. More like "death by misadventure", a true
> > accident. Now the later cover-up by both Buffy and Faith-- that's a
> > felony.)
>
> Faith acting without due caution is what elevates Finch's death from
> being a tragic accident to manslaughter.
I don't think she was acting without due caution. Again, given the
realities of the Buffy universe, anything that jumps out of the darkness
at you in an alley in the middle of the night-- you hesitate, you die.
Add in the fact that Really Bad Things *actually were* jumping out at
them in a sequential and almost synchronized Ballet of Evil at that very
moment and what Faith did was perfectly defensible.
Of course they both became felons after the fact, as I said.
Espen Schjønberg
>
> I liked DGL better than she did, though. She was "only watching it
> because it's _Buffy_,"
Does this mean "we" are close to losing Mrs Quality?
--
Espen
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Snvgu'f pncnovyvgvrf nf n Fynlre unir orra fubja gb or ng yrnfg Ohssl'f
rdhny. Uryy, vs nalguvat fur frrzf gb or fgebatre, snfgre naq zber ntvyr
guna Ohssl. Fur uheyrq Natry nebhaq gung ncnegzrag yvxr n ent qbyy jvgu
bar nez va "Svir ol Svir". V'ir arire frra Ohssl qb gung gb n inzcver.
Fur hfhnyyl whfg xvpxf naq chapurf gurz hagvy fur pna svaq na bcravat gb
fgnxr gurz. Snvgu qvq 20-30 sbbg fgnaqvat yrncf juuvyr svtugvat Natryhf
va "Eryrnfr". Gur pybfrfg jr'ir frra Ohssl pbzr gb gung jnf jura fur
fpnyrq gur fpubby'f ebbs gb fgbc Wbanguna va gur pybpx gbjre. Naq Snvgu
fcevagrq nobhg n uhaqerq lneqf va zrer frpbaqf va "Fnyintr". Ntnva,
arire frra Ohssl qb nalguvat fvzvyne. Va snpg, jurarire jr'ir frra Ohssl
ehaavat va na rzretrapl fur'f abg ehaavat nal snfgre guna n abezny tvey
ehaf.
> We get to see that two other Slayers just don't measure up to Buffy
> (one's dead, and the other has killed a human in other than self
> defense),
> Faith is just not the equal Slayer of Buffy. Close, but no cigar.
If you're arguing that Faith's errors in judgment somehow make her a
lesser Slayer, I'll remind you that over the course of seven years,
Buffy sure made some whoppers herself.
vague disclaimer
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
Quite. Sometimes people (or artificial intelligence units somewhere in
the bowels of the University of Oslo, as the case may be) forget what
the show is actually *about*.
KenM47
Well, up to this point in time at least (trying to avoid any spoiler
as to yea or nay in the future), Buffy has not killed a human in other
than self defense. She also appears, at least until now (ditto), to
have a stronger moral compass than Faith, a greater recognition of a
higher purpose, and an unwillingness to assume an Uber-human position
in society.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
I don't think Buffy's stronger moral compass somehow comes from being
bitten by the Master. That would be somewhat... odd.
KenM47
Perhaps it would make a little more sense if you had not snipped part
of my earlier post:
"We get to see that two other Slayers just don't measure up to Buffy
(one's dead, and the other has killed a human in other than self
defense), because of that, because of whatever makes Buffy Buffy,
because of family and friends, whatever."
I already acknowledged to AOQ:
Arbitrar Of Quality
> You did't happen to do a bunch of drugs, did ya?
I feel like doing drugs would make me enjoy the comedy episodes MORE.
If I ever rewatch the series, we can try 3B that way.
> And add:
>
> WILLOW: (rolls her eyes, grins sardonically) Oh, right. Me and Oz play
> 'Mistress of Pain' every night.
>
> XANDER: Did anyone else just go to a scary visual place?
Yeah, that came close to getting a mention.
> > 2) Okay, show, you interpreted the reference to DS9's "Crossover"
> > as a desire for Willow-on-Willow scenes, didn't you? I'll have you
> > know that there was a lot more to that episode than Kira lusting after
> > herself. You only aped the surface elements. So you're still
> > "Through the Looking Glass," bitch. (And if you don't quit while
> > you're ahead, you might end up as "Shattered Mirror," and I
> > don't think anyone wants that.)
>
> I'm afraid you will have to translate that into English for some of us.
For those who don't get the reference, there's really no point in a
long explanation.
Ah, who am I kidding? Since when have I passed up the chance to do a
long off-topic ramble about DS9? There'll be a heavy dose of
opinion here.
Okay, so one of DS9's rare forays into alternate-universe gimmicks was
a second-season episode called "Crossover," which despite being
slightly marred by a few contrivances, is a strong show. (There's
another level of pandering to the Trekkies involved here, since this
particular alternate universe is the same one as a popular '60s-Trek
episode, "Mirror, Mirror.") The mirrorverse of MM and Cr, like
Mastersville in "The Wish," combines two traits in about equal amounts:
everything is sexually-charged, and it's a really frightening place.
"Crossover" is special, though, because rather than just being an
excuse for the actors to play against type, the alternate versions of
our heroes have fully fleshed out personalities and seem as interesting
(or more so) than the normal versions.
However, DS9 then went ahead and made repeated trips to the
mirrorverse. "Through The Looking Glass" abandons most of the darkness
and depth of Cr. Now it's all action and sex and fun, not so much
texture. The thing is, taken in isolation, there's nothing wrong
with TTLG. It's a perfectly good piece of "comic book DS9," as
people used to say on usenet. But I can't help but resent it because
it's such a betrayal of what made Cr so great. [Yet another geek
analogy for anyone who plays video games: TTLG is the _Warrior Within_
of Trek episodes.] The show's third visit (there are four and a half
DS9 mirrorverse episodes, and no, I don't intend to go into what that
means), "Shattered Mirror," makes it clear that "Crossover" is
a distant memory, and the show is now treating alternate-universe shows
as solely an excuse for the actors and writers to cut loose a little
(but there's not much outright comedy, oddly). One-note caricatures,
rampant idiot plotting, and bizarre behavior from "our" people are
the order of the day. (SM isn't totally worthless, but that's only
because it has what was one of the best spaceship fights seen on TV at
the time.)
The most relevant example of this trend for this discussion is the
character of Kira. The evil Mirror!Kira is shown in various states of
leather and undress (including taking a milk bath) in Cr, but she also
has a lot of our normal-Kira's willpower, a deep sadness with her
life, and honestly seems to think that she's being a benevolent
dictator (and if you like subtext, she's a reflection on how
normal-Kira isn't as far removed as she'd like to think from the
type of people she most despises). Mirror!Kira quickly develops an
obvious lust for her other self. [The writer of Cr apparently didn't
intend it to mean that she was necessarily bi; on a fundamental level,
it's narcissism. Seeing another version of herself is her chance to
feel real love.] In subsequent appearances, however, Mirror!Kira is
reduced to laughing maniacally and vamping on everyone she sees (the
character is somewhat similar to Vamp!Willow).
Hopefully that explains what I mean when I said back in the TW review
that I like my what-if stories to be more "Crossover," less "Through
The Looking Glass" (and least "Shattered Mirror"). And why the
Willow-on-Willow scenes from DGL did indeed remind me of Cr, but are
not what I meant at all.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
(warning:
> 4 PJ spoilers)
> >
I'm seeing them on 5/17 and 18. I slaver.
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:dpga22dntg9ia1oos...@4ax.com...
>
> YMMV, but I can overlook any little problems for the greatness of this
> episode.
I can overlook it too (or at least look past it). As I said at the the
start, this is my favourite Season 3 episode, 10th favourite overall. It
wouldn't have been any higher if the inconsistencies had been removed (in
fact I don't see how it would be possible with the inconistencies removed).
But sometimes its fun to notice the goofs and inconsistencies too :)
--
Apteryx
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> to get gross if you eat too much.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Nope, I still can't vehemently disagree with you. I might rate it
"good," just because I do enjoy it a lot. I enjoyed the heck out of it
when it first aired. But even then I thought it had pacing problems,
which have only grown with repeated viewings. Scenes that go on too
long, or dialogue/acting that just doesn't quite work, as you pointed
out. I often FF through the Bronze scenes until the fight starts (it's
one of my favorites). Still, it has some classic moments. And I adore
the title. In the course of the season arc, it's pretty
inconsequential. It's a fun diversion, but isn't the best episode of
S3 (there are those who argue it is). Time has lessoned VampWillow's
appeal to me. I'm not the drooling fanboy I once was.
-- Mike Zeares (no offense meant to those who still are drooling
fanboys. I've just developed AH issues over the years)
Apteryx
"drifter" <ne...@home.net> wrote in message
news:xifVf.443$vx2...@fe03.lga...
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> But that theory is disproved by Doppelgangland. We see two Willows
>> together. So there must be two parallel universes, diverging from
>> that time shortly before WTTH, each with its own Willow, and
>> apparently a full set of other characters. Buffyverse Cordelia
>> visited that universe when she made the wish, and despite dying
>> there, was returned alive to the Buffyverse at just about the point
>> she left it.
>
> Which brings up the question of "Where is the Wishverse Cordelia?"
> The Cordelia we see in the Wishverse was FROM the original Buffy-
> verse. She didn't know what was going on, and didn't remember any
> of the history of the Wishverse, which should have started from about
> WTTH. Yet she had to have "lived" through that history, since everyone
> knew who she was. The history she remembered was from the original
> Buffyverse. So, where is the Wishverse Cordy?
I assumed it was a straight swap. So Wishverse Cordy arrived in the
Buffyverse, and may have led a rich and full life there, forgiving Xander
because she realised from her life experience in the Wishverse that there
are much worse things than isolated cheating, and maybe settling down with
him somewhere to raise several perfectly normal children, while having an
interesting and challenging career.
But all that got wiped out when Buffyverse Cordelia returned to the
Buffyverse shortly before she left, rewriting the Buffyverse timeline.
Or maybe it didn't. Maybe she continues to live happily in the real
Buffyverse, and what we have been watching since original Cordy's return at
the end of The Wish (and continuing through to Not Fade Away) is a new
parallel universe created by the events of The Wish :)
>> The characters in Dopplegangland certainly believe that the Wishverse
>> is a seperate
>
> Meaningless almost-rant: "separate." Only put it in here because of Don's
> spelling note on Dopplegangland/Doppelgangland. So, yes, blame Don.
> --
I have a lifelong problem spelling "separate". It is too late for me to
learn now. I will always be tempted to insert an "e". But in an intriguing
parallel to the parallel universe stories, I did turn on my newsreader's
spellchecker a couple of months ago to deal with just such issues. But it
reverted to "off" when I later ran System Restore to deal with a different
problem :)
--
Apteryx
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I'm going to the Cleveland show. :)
George W Harris
wrote:
:> run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
:> continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
:> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
:> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
:
:Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting parallel
:universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
:destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
:but now it appears that all that happens is that he returned Buffyverse
:Cordelia and the camera crew to their rightful place, and condemned Anyanka
:(there seems to be only one) to "failing math". Wishverse Cordelia came off
:worse though - she would have been returned to her universe only to find she
:was now dead and cremated.
I don't think so. Anya wanted to retrieve her
amulet from a *time* and place where it was lost; it
*was* lost in this parallel dimension that doesn't exist
anymore (it was, in fact, destroyed there). Remember,
they were creating a 'temporal fold'; going back to the
*time* and place that it was lost, that is, before it was
destroyed. There's no reason to think the wishverse
kept existing after the amulet was destroyed.
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
wrote:
:But we see two universes, and two Willows together. The people who seem to
:know most (in particular Anya) treat them as two seperate realities.
No, the Giles of the wishverse treat them as being
exclusive; he knows more about it than the Giles of the
Buffyverse.
:
:We don't need evidence that the Wishverse continues to exist. There is no
:evidence that it doesn't.
We have evidence that the Wishverse doesn't
continue to exist; WishverseGiles destroyed it.
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W Harris
wrote:
:> Not seeing this. Vamp Willow gets pulled from the Wish-verse before
:> she's dusted, and returned to that moment. Both times that's before
:> Giles destroys the amulet bringing that reality to an end.
:
:The issue is, how many Gileses are there, and how many Willows?
:
:From The Wish alone, I would have said there was one of each only. Only one
:universe, but that universe's reality was changed by the wish from a time
:shortly before WTTH. Giles (the only Giles there is) changes it back to its
:original course by destroying the amulet.
:
:But that theory is disproved by Doppelgangland. We see two Willows together.
Right. One was summoned from the past. They
didn't exist at the same time in the past, though; there was
no Willow at the same time as a VampWillow.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
Cheers. I've no idea if your opinions are 'right', on DS9, but you get
your point over admirably.
Apteryx
news:6vdb221iukpm8mbti...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:54:03 +1200, "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> :But we see two universes, and two Willows together. The people who seem
> to
> :know most (in particular Anya) treat them as two seperate realities.
>
> No, the Giles of the wishverse treat them as being
> exclusive; he knows more about it than the Giles of the
> Buffyverse.
Everybody in The Wish treats them as exclusive, and the episode is only
engaging to the audience if they do likewise. That is what creates the
inconsistency with Doppelganland, where everyone treats them as seperate,
and it only makes sense if they are.
:
> :We don't need evidence that the Wishverse continues to exist. There is no
> :evidence that it doesn't.
>
> We have evidence that the Wishverse doesn't
> continue to exist; WishverseGiles destroyed it.
Try taking that one more step. What evidence do we have that Wishverse Giles
destroyed it?
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:12:10 +1200, "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> :> Not seeing this. Vamp Willow gets pulled from the Wish-verse before
> :> she's dusted, and returned to that moment. Both times that's before
> :> Giles destroys the amulet bringing that reality to an end.
> :
> :The issue is, how many Gileses are there, and how many Willows?
> :
> :From The Wish alone, I would have said there was one of each only. Only
> one
> :universe, but that universe's reality was changed by the wish from a time
> :shortly before WTTH. Giles (the only Giles there is) changes it back to
> its
> :original course by destroying the amulet.
> :
> :But that theory is disproved by Doppelgangland. We see two Willows
> together.
>
> Right. One was summoned from the past. They
> didn't exist at the same time in the past, though; there was
> no Willow at the same time as a VampWillow.
If there is just a single Buffyverse universe, then by the time of
Doppelgangland, there is no time in the past when there was a Vamp Willow.
There is for us as the audience - it was when we watched The Wish. But for
participants in the Buffyverse, that time has been rewritten when Cordy
returned just before she left. Its not just Vamp Willow and the amulet that
no longer exist, but could be recalled from the past. The time itself in
which they existed for us as audience no longer existed in the Buffyverse.
They can only be recalled from a parallel universe, not from that now
non-existent time.
--
Apteryx
KenM47
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> it only makes sense that by screwing up the spell to bring back the
> necklace (that was destroyed within that world) that she could
> inadvertently pull Vamp! Willow out of that same world instead. I don't
> see it as a retcon at all, to me it's perfect continuity.
anya didnt screw up the spell willow did
willow was so agitated
that instead of pouring the magic sand on the necklace image
she poured it on her own hand
hence vampwillow was drawn through not the amulet
> She's not from their world, by simply killing her they could alter the
> entire course of that world's history. Even if it will never affect them
> directly, that is some pretty heavy stuff. Vamp! Willow wants to go home
> and they want her out of there, so they do the right thing.
more likely that willow saw her vampire version as herself instead of a demon
so it wouldve felt like her own death had she been staked
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
KenM47
And that's what Anya's spell ends up doing. It recalls Vamp Willow
from the alternate reality and from a past time in that alternate
reality.
Would have been the same if she had succeeded in just getting the
amulet.
Anya is a creature outside the reality of The Wishverse when Giles
summons her there. She has knowledge of both realities.
Similarly Cordelia in making the wish, is the only human with
knowledge of both realities because she really does not belong in the
Wish-verse either.
Now my head hurts. It's still not as bad as working on the time travel
paradoxes of Voyager and Enterprise.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > to set up the Willows' confrontation.
>
> Nothing idiot - Willow thought vamp!Willow could be captured.
hence going for the dart gun behind the counter
before vampwillow caught her
> A new shot, not just re-use. Vamp!Willow was scripted as saying "Oh,
> Fine!", but only got to the F.
vf gung jung tybel jnf fnlvat jura gur jnerubfr qebccrq ba ure urnq?
KenM47
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > There's some idiot plotting involved in Willow running off on her own
>> > to set up the Willows' confrontation.
>>
>> Nothing idiot - Willow thought vamp!Willow could be captured.
>
>hence going for the dart gun behind the counter
>before vampwillow caught her
>
>> A new shot, not just re-use. Vamp!Willow was scripted as saying "Oh,
>> Fine!", but only got to the F.
>
>vf gung jung tybel jnf fnlvat jura gur jnerubfr qebccrq ba ure urnq?
Qvqa'g gung jbeq ortva jvgu F?
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:sh9a225n633dbtot2...@4ax.com...
> > "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> >>
> >>Pretty much. And the fact that Wishverse seems to be a persisting parallel
> >>universe does have me feeling bad for Wishverse Giles. He thought that by
> >>destroying Anyanka's power centre, he was saving himself and his friends,
> >>but now it appears that all that happens is that he returned Buffyverse
> >>Cordelia and the camera crew to their rightful place, and condemned
> >>Anyanka
> >>(there seems to be only one) to "failing math". Wishverse Cordelia came
> >>off
> >>worse though - she would have been returned to her universe only to find
> >>she
> >>was now dead and cremated.
> >
> > Not seeing this. Vamp Willow gets pulled from the Wish-verse before
> > she's dusted, and returned to that moment. Both times that's before
> > Giles destroys the amulet bringing that reality to an end.
>
> The issue is, how many Gileses are there, and how many Willows?
theres also superpositioning which occurs continuously
and state collapse that occurs everytime we observe a superimposed system
George W Harris
:Maybe you just missed it from the getgo with thinking the Mayor wanted
:Buffy, not Willow killed. It's a great set-up for the rest of the
:episode, the whole mistaken identity thing. I still love the episode
:after repeated viewings.
Also set up the great "Who do you work for?" scene.
:
:Ken (Brooklyn)
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W Harris
:- Group reaction to Willow's sarcastic 'admission' to bondage fun with
:Oz.
"Did anybody else just go to a scary visual place?"
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
George W Harris
<mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
:> Early on, I was loving the plot. I wouldn't have imagined that
:> it'd be possible to do a sequel to TW, but I like the way Anya keeps
:> scheming afterward, uses just the right incentive to recruit Willow,
:> the use of clips from TW, the way Willow jumps into things but then
:> gets cold feet, the way Anya then smoothly shifts gears to try to use
:> Evil Willow, the way our Willow is able to keep her wits about her and
:> get the jump on her evil self... there be some good ideas in that
:> run-on sentence. I also got a little confused as the episode
:> continued, though. "The Wish" seemed to imply that one reality
:> actually replaced another when the titular wish was made. Now it's
:> full-fledged parallel universes. Seems like a retcon.
:
:Well, considering it was Anya that caused the first AU to come into play
:it only makes sense that by screwing up the spell to bring back the
:necklace (that was destroyed within that world) that she could
:inadvertently pull Vamp! Willow out of that same world instead. I don't
:see it as a retcon at all, to me it's perfect continuity.
Especially since it was pouring the sand on the
image of the lost item that triggered the spell: the sand
got on Willow, who is an image of Villow.
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I already acknowledged to AOQ:
>
> "For whatever reason I've always had that PG post-CPR "No,
> I feel strong. I feel different" nagging away. You're probably right
> that that's not the secret ingredient, more the family and friends
> that Spike noted in SH."
I think that a lot of people read too much into what Buffy said there.
her "No, I feel strong" was in direct reply to Xander saying "You're
still weak." She was contradicting him about being weak, not saying
that she was suddenly stronger.
And the different: well, she had just been dead. She was probably
feeling an endorphin rush, or something, after being revived.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> > You did't happen to do a bunch of drugs, did ya?
>
> I feel like doing drugs would make me enjoy the comedy episodes MORE.
> If I ever rewatch the series, we can try 3B that way.
>
> > And add:
> >
> > WILLOW: (rolls her eyes, grins sardonically) Oh, right. Me and Oz play
> > 'Mistress of Pain' every night.
> >
> > XANDER: Did anyone else just go to a scary visual place?
>
> Yeah, that came close to getting a mention.
I liked the hesitant way that even Giles raised his hand.
>
> Okay, so one of DS9's rare forays into alternate-universe gimmicks was
> a second-season episode called "Crossover," which despite being
> slightly marred by a few contrivances, is a strong show. (There's
> another level of pandering to the Trekkies involved here, since this
> particular alternate universe is the same one as a popular '60s-Trek
> episode, "Mirror, Mirror.")
I liked the history they gave to their mirror universe. In 'Mirror
Mirror,' on parting from the alternate universe Kirk points out to
Mirror!Spock how illogical their evil empire is, and Mirror!Spock is
seen to agree with that assessment. (Somehow it had never occurred to
him before Kirk pointed it out, though.) In the DS9 Mirror-verse we
learn that Mirror!Spock went on to form a peace and brotherly love type
of movement that swept the empire, and made everyone in the evil human
empire see the light, and turn away from their evil ways. Pure Star
Trek touchy feely "we can all get along if we're all nice to each other"
stuff.
So what happens next? The Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and all the
other alien races that the evil human empire had been evilly suppressing
came in and kicked the humans' asses and enslaved them all.
KenM47
>In article <lt8b22dkchli89dh3...@4ax.com>,
> KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> I already acknowledged to AOQ:
>>
>> "For whatever reason I've always had that PG post-CPR "No,
>> I feel strong. I feel different" nagging away. You're probably right
>> that that's not the secret ingredient, more the family and friends
>> that Spike noted in SH."
>
>I think that a lot of people read too much into what Buffy said there.
>her "No, I feel strong" was in direct reply to Xander saying "You're
>still weak." She was contradicting him about being weak, not saying
>that she was suddenly stronger.
>
>And the different: well, she had just been dead. She was probably
>feeling an endorphin rush, or something, after being revived.
Gura ntnva, znlor gung'f jul fur pnzr onpx jvgu gung fhagna?
Ken (Brooklyn)
vmac...@yahoo.com
> "Did anybody else just go to a scary visual place?"
--
That's a line from this show that immediately got into my lexicon. As
well as "a radical interpretation of the text" when I'm misconstrued.
And "Oh! Fun." when faced with something unmistakably unpleasant. This
show probably holds a record for quotables for me.
VMacek
vague disclaimer
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Gur zbfg ovmneer ebg13 rire orpnhfr S gheaf gb F :) (V guvax xra vf
pbeerpg).
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
sugar?
Carlos Moreno
>>>One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
>>>to get gross if you eat too much.
>>>
>>>AOQ rating: Decent
>>
>>
>>The main redeeming quality of 'The Wish' is that it made
>>'Doppelgangland' possible.
>
>
> fun with willow episode
>
> of course it has no consequences with rest of the series
I don't think there is a single episode that has no consequences
whatsoever with the rest of the series (ok, maybe there are a
few, but you get my point).
There are a couple of references to this in the future, in
addition to gur sbejneq ersrerapr gung vg pbagnvaf: J: V guvax
V'z xvaq bs tnl; O: qba'g jbeel Jvyy, V'z fher n inzc'f crefbanyvgl
unf abguvat gb qb jvgu gur crefba'f crefbanyvgl; N: Npghnyyl ....
Gung'f n tbbq cbvag.
The two references that come to mind are:
Va gur qbhoyr-Knaqre rcvfbqr -- Jvyybj fnlvat "V unaqyrq vg jryy"
Crepl pbzrf onpx va bar frnfba sbhe rcvfbqr; va snpg, ur qbrf
fubj hc va Rnefubg, VVEP, juvpu pbafgvghgrf sbyybj-hc gb gur
riragf va Qbccrytnatynaq
Plus, in terms of continuity: guvf vf gur rcvfbqr gung frnyf
Naln'f sngr nf n uhzna orvat juvpu yrnqf gb ure orvat n znva
punenpgre.
No consequences with the rest of the series?? That's a joke
almost as good as any of the hilarious moments of the episode!!
;-)
BTW, is it my newsreader that is not showing me the whole thread?
How is it possible that no-one has mentioned, in the list of
hilarious moments:
1) Anya: ".... and I'm flunking math!"
2) Vamp-Willow being dusted and mouthing up to the F in her
"Oh FFFFFFF**k"
Carlos
--
Carlos Moreno
> If you're arguing that Faith's errors in judgment somehow make her a
> lesser Slayer, I'll remind you that over the course of seven years,
> Buffy sure made some whoppers herself.
[Please AOQ, stop reading, as there will be spoilers for the rest of
the series -- I just didn't feel like rot13ing the entire message]
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
So, BTR, are you suggesting that Buffy sleeping with someone that
you don't like (maybe sleeping with *two* guys that you don't like)
is as questionable as being a *cold-blooded* and sadistic murderer?
*Angelus* has a higher moral compass than Faith, for that matter:
when he tortured and murdered people for pleasure, he didn't have
a soul! (I'm following the show's mythology -- not that I'm saying
that the soul vs. soulless issue as they put it in the show has any
real meaning) Faith did brutally assault people (with full awarness
of her infinitely superior physical strength -- compared to even
the strongest human being), tortured Wesley to near-death and took
intense pleasure in doing so; she assaulted Cordelia, she nearly-
killed Xander...
Sure, Buffy is as "lesser-Slayer" as Faith...
It really never ceases to amaze me how a Federal Law-Enforcing
Officer can develop such an obsession to the point of irrationally
defending the one character from the whole Buffyverse that would
easily compete in the "worst and most devious criminal in the
history of mankind" (yes, yes, I know -- fictional universe vs.
reality; but still -- the part that amazes me is that when it
comes to discussions that in a sense "extrapolate" their world
into ours, discussions about how we, human beings in the *real*
universe, judge what happens in the Buffyverse under our real
world's criteria, you still come always in defense of anything
that Faith does or thinks)
Carlos
--
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Carlos Moreno <moreno_at_mo...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> >>>One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
> >>>to get gross if you eat too much.
> >>>
> >>>AOQ rating: Decent
> >>
> >>Your sense of humour is broken.
> >>
> >>The main redeeming quality of 'The Wish' is that it made
> >>'Doppelgangland' possible.
> >
> >
> > fun with willow episode
> >
> > of course it has no consequences with rest of the series
>
> I don't think there is a single episode that has no consequences
> whatsoever with the rest of the series (ok, maybe there are a
> few, but you get my point).
>
> There are a couple of references to this in the future, in
> addition to gur sbejneq ersrerapr gung vg pbagnvaf: J: V guvax
> V'z xvaq bs tnl; O: qba'g jbeel Jvyy, V'z fher n inzc'f crefbanyvgl
> unf abguvat gb qb jvgu gur crefba'f crefbanyvgl; N: Npghnyyl ....
> Gung'f n tbbq cbvag.
ner lbh vzcylvat gung v jbhyq yvr gb n svefg gvzr ivrjre?
that would be too whedonesque
KenM47
>mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>>>One-sentence summary: Brain candy; it's fun for a little but starts
>>>>to get gross if you eat too much.
>>>>
<SNIP>
>
>No consequences with the rest of the series?? That's a joke
>almost as good as any of the hilarious moments of the episode!!
>;-)
Actually, I pretty much think it was.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
Carlos Moreno <moreno_at_mo...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
>
> > If you're arguing that Faith's errors in judgment somehow make her a
> > lesser Slayer, I'll remind you that over the course of seven years,
> > Buffy sure made some whoppers herself.
> So, BTR, are you suggesting that Buffy sleeping with someone that
> you don't like (maybe sleeping with *two* guys that you don't like)
> is as questionable as being a *cold-blooded* and sadistic murderer?
Quote me back the passage where I mentioned anything about who Buffy
screwed.
> Sure, Buffy is as "lesser-Slayer" as Faith...
This sentence doesn't make any sense.
> It really never ceases to amaze me how a Federal Law-Enforcing
> Officer can develop such an obsession to the point of irrationally
> defending the one character from the whole Buffyverse that would
> easily compete in the "worst and most devious criminal in the
> history of mankind"
You're kidding right? First, I'm not "irrationally defending" anything
Faith did. I'm just saying that in terms of her ABILITIES as a Slayer,
she's been shown to be at least Buffy's equal, if not her better.
Second, how in the name of god do you arrive at the conclusion that if
Faith were a real person, she'd be included in the pantheon of the worst
criminals in human history? She killed two people and helped a guy turn
into a big snake. Hardly on the level of the genocide perpetrated by
Hitler and Stalin or even lesser monsters like Hussein, Atta and bin
Laden. And Faith's mental pathology, while serious, is nowhere near as
severe as the Mansons, Dahmers and Bundys of the world. On the sliding
scale of human atrocities, Faith wouldn't even register as a blip.
And third, me being a cop has nothing to do with anything since this is
a fictional show. I happen to really like Darth Vader as a character
also. Hardly relevant to what I do for a living.