AOQ Review 2-7: "Lie To Me"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
(or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
That's it for me. I'm through.
When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
suppose we have to start somewhere.
Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
(wait for it... )
(wait for it...)
Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two. Thus the
opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
tuned, dear viewers!
Back in school, it's time to re-address the two complaints that
appear in pretty much every AOQ review, so let's get them over with
quickly:
1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
anything other than an idiot? Extra credit if you work in a comparison
to the Cordelia-is-annoying-but-not-necessarily-stupid Shylock scene
from OOM/S.
2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
(It's not as bad in this episode as it's been in the past, but
it's there.) If you were Buffy in this situation, would you tolerate
this guy who hasn't made it a secret that he's not over you trying
to sabotage every potential relationship you might get into? Also -
granted, some time has passed since "Prophecy Girl," but if you
were Xander, would you be able to go back to your pre-painful-rejection
ways so easily?
We soon meet Billy Fordham, Buffy's old friend, and a character
highly likely to be up to no good. They have a few mannerisms like
addressing each other by last name that help us at least accept the
old-friends premise. Otherwise, we don't really get a sense of how
the two of them click. Of course, he's a good-looking virile guy and
she's having issues with Angel; that's proven to be enough to get
our Slayer's attention all year.
I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
we wouldn't care about them anyway?
Since the beginning of the series, the character of Angel has been
alternately intriguing and confusing. I valued his role in the plots,
but I didn't particularly like him and I didn't really know why. I
think I may remember "Lie To Me" as the episode where I finally
"got" Angel. He's still underplayed, but there's a lot of
emotion and nuance underneath the mostly-dead-panning. Watch the way
he's a little more gentle when visiting Willow in her room, and his
real concern for Buffy in that scene. Or the very slightly pouty way
he asks Xander to stop calling him "Dead Boy."
There are two really outstanding sequences in this show. The first of
them is the talk between Buffy and Angel. Both of them come in ready
to deal with sharing the truth; whatever else might happen, it's
better in the long run. The timing is perfect as Angel tells his
story, Buffy absorbs it, acknowledges that this is what she'd asked
for, and with trust thus established, Angel is able to give her the
warning about Ford. Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
following that.)
Another general comment before we go on to cool sequence #2: notice how
well Buffy deals with having both Angel and Ford acting all suspicious
and/or lying to her. No living in denial. No "you're just
jealous" to the people who try to warn her. Not even the luxury of
lashing out too hard at her friends for investigating Ford behind her
back, since they were trying to look out for her, and it did indeed
help.
The other excellent scene is the confrontation at the end. It's been
set up so that Buffy has rather recklessly gotten herself into a bad
situation (I feel like a certain perceptive character may have
mentioned that impatience was a flaw of hers...). She's genuinely
alone and against insurmountable odds; she doesn't usually get into
real danger of this caliber. So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
runs with it. Good stuff.
Points for restraint - Ford's ultimate fate is somewhat obvious, so
rather than playing it for suspense, the show has Buffy basically tell
the viewer what's going to happen. The final scene with Giles is
good but not great. The generalities make sense - these two
characters should be having this conversation, and Buffy should still
(as in "Prophecy Girl" and others) be allegorically like every
older kid who still kinda expects life to be fair. The actual
dialogue, though, simply isn't as poignant as it thinks it is. The
very, very end is quite nice, at least, starting with Buffy saying the
title phrase.
A few other points:
1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
[These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
2) Clunky Expository Dialogue Of The Week Award goes to the kid at the
beginning, explaining to no one in particular that his mom is always
late.
3) Spike, Dru, and the bird was strangely sad, in a way that I think
Joss and friends have been trying for since the debut of these
characters.
4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities? (On a
related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
theme for someone?
6) This is probably the most quotable episode of Season Two so far. A
few picks just off the top of my head:
"You have too many thoughts."
"I've known you for two minutes, and already I can't stand you.
I don't really feature you living forever. Can I eat him now,
luv?"
"She's... given me the number of her... beeper thingy...."
"Ours is a forbidden love."
I took awhile to come up with a rating for this one. You know when
something hits all of the points it should, and it works pretty well,
but just doesn't have quite the effect it could? Yeah. Just to show
how arbitrary ratings are, though, one more moment the caliber of the
two I gushed about above might've been enough for the
"Excellent." I'm not going to obsess over this anymore;
there's more to a review than just a rating anyway.
So...
One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
> (or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> That's it for me. I'm through.
>
> When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> suppose we have to start somewhere.
>
> Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
>
> (wait for it... )
> (wait for it...)
>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
Alright, I was just about ready to hunt you down and beat you to death
with a shovel.
>
> I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two. Thus the
> opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
> to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
> to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
> their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
> exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
> tuned, dear viewers!
That Dru was Angel's sister was a hypothesis that I held for a long
time. Even this episode doesn't completely rule the possibility out.
It's possible that Angel left that bit out when he told Buffy about her.
> I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
> cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
> better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
> whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
> laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
> secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
> the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
> sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
> hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
> Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
> chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> we wouldn't care about them anyway?
There really wasn't any time to develop any of the cultists. As a minor
aside, this is the episode that generated the whole "Tracy Lords" thing
that was going on in atvbs for a while. (Someone asked if the blonde
was played by Tracy Lords. She wasn't, but after that people started
"spotting" Tracy in every episode for the next few years, playing
everything from vampires, to bits of furniture.)
> Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
> directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
> also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
> following that.)
I'm afraid that I was going "Uh oh, we've got first time (well second
time) director tricks going on here." Prophecy Girl also had some weird
camera moves, for the sake of a doing weird camera move in it.
> So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
> a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
> attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
> less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
> runs with it. Good stuff.
Coulda done without the Xenaesque jump up to the balcony. That looked
*so* fake.
> 1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
> killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
> afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
> is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
> [These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
> them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
The weakness is never entirely explained, but it's assumed that it had
something to do with that mob in Prague that Giles thought had killed
her.
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities? (On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Vampiric souls are something that are *still* being debated by the fans.
> 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> theme for someone?
Hmmm.... Naq gura Wbff tbrf naq xvyyf Wblpr jvgu pbzcyvpngvbaf sbyybjvat
fhetrel gb erzbir n oenva ghzbhe.
> 6) This is probably the most quotable episode of Season Two so far. A
> few picks just off the top of my head:
> "You have too many thoughts."
> "I've known you for two minutes, and already I can't stand you.
> I don't really feature you living forever. Can I eat him now,
> luv?"
> "She's... given me the number of her... beeper thingy...."
> "Ours is a forbidden love."
And then we have some of my favourite quotes from the episode:
- When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
*me*! This is great!" line.
- Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
Bronze.
- Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
- Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
- Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
and the others to the Sunset Club.
- Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
hopelessly devoted
I remember being exactly where you are right now.
Rating every episode.
Trying to figure out each character.
Trying to understand the who's through the why's.
Seeing where you are now and knowing how ALL the pieces fit.......
Stick with it.
You are in for the RIDE OF YOUR LIFE!
ENJOY!!!
Apteryx
news:1139465006.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> AOQ rating: Good
No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously (and this is
from someone in the small minority who believes Season 1 was the best season
of BtVS). To me, the 15th best episode of BtVS, and 6th best of Season 2
(and the best of Season 2 so far by quite a wide margin).
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1139465006.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Good
>
> No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
> Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously.
I think it might be a case of rising expectations.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
> (or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> That's it for me. I'm through.
>
> When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> suppose we have to start somewhere.
>
> Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
>
> (wait for it... )
> (wait for it...)
>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
That was EVIL!!!! LOL
>
> I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two. Thus the
> opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
> to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
> to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
> their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
> exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
> tuned, dear viewers!
>
It's been a long time since I've seen this episode (I really need to
borrow S2 from my sister to follow along better) but I do like how it
does show there is a history between Angel and Dru. What history that is
will be hit upon later.
> Back in school, it's time to re-address the two complaints that
> appear in pretty much every AOQ review, so let's get them over with
> quickly:
>
> 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> anything other than an idiot? Extra credit if you work in a comparison
> to the Cordelia-is-annoying-but-not-necessarily-stupid Shylock scene
> from OOM/S.
It is way too late in the evening for an attempt to make that comparison
but I'm sure somebody out there is going to give it a try. I didn't
particular care much for Cordelia in the earlier episodes myself. She
did grow on me though.
>
> 2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
> Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
> (It's not as bad in this episode as it's been in the past, but
> it's there.) If you were Buffy in this situation, would you tolerate
> this guy who hasn't made it a secret that he's not over you trying
> to sabotage every potential relationship you might get into? Also -
> granted, some time has passed since "Prophecy Girl," but if you
> were Xander, would you be able to go back to your pre-painful-rejection
> ways so easily?
Xander is getting better at dealing with the other guys in Buffy's life
by this point but he definitely has residual issues of the rejection in
'Prophecy Girl'. If I remember correctly, Buffy (from what I remember)
seems to handle his sarcasm pretty well and for the most part, lets it
slide. However, his repeated "You're not wrong." was pretty funny.
>
<snip>
>
> I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
> cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
> better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
> whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
> laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
> secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
> the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
> sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
> hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
> Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
> chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> we wouldn't care about them anyway?
I never thought Billy was very interesting either. As far as his
character development goes, I think it's just enough to push along the
story but not enough that you form any sort of attachment to the
character. He and Buffy have history. check. He has ulterior motive.
check. Buffy gives him a chance. check. He turns on Buffy. check.
So, he fits the requirements of the antagonist enough to keep him
interesting but we, as the viewer really don't need to feel any real
sympathy for him. It's Buffy we need to feel sympathy for.
>
> Since the beginning of the series, the character of Angel has been
> alternately intriguing and confusing. I valued his role in the plots,
> but I didn't particularly like him and I didn't really know why. I
> think I may remember "Lie To Me" as the episode where I finally
> "got" Angel. He's still underplayed, but there's a lot of
> emotion and nuance underneath the mostly-dead-panning. Watch the way
> he's a little more gentle when visiting Willow in her room, and his
> real concern for Buffy in that scene. Or the very slightly pouty way
> he asks Xander to stop calling him "Dead Boy."
Angel is an intriguing character. I've gotta say, he definitely has layers.
>
> There are two really outstanding sequences in this show. The first of
> them is the talk between Buffy and Angel. Both of them come in ready
> to deal with sharing the truth; whatever else might happen, it's
> better in the long run. The timing is perfect as Angel tells his
> story, Buffy absorbs it, acknowledges that this is what she'd asked
> for, and with trust thus established, Angel is able to give her the
> warning about Ford. Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
> directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
> also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
> following that.)
I'll have to watch for that when I see it again.
>
<snip>
>
> The other excellent scene is the confrontation at the end. It's been
> set up so that Buffy has rather recklessly gotten herself into a bad
> situation (I feel like a certain perceptive character may have
> mentioned that impatience was a flaw of hers...). She's genuinely
> alone and against insurmountable odds; she doesn't usually get into
> real danger of this caliber. So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
> a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
> attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
> less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
> runs with it. Good stuff.
I always thought it was interesting how quickly she assessed the
situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene. She
used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
>
> Points for restraint - Ford's ultimate fate is somewhat obvious, so
> rather than playing it for suspense, the show has Buffy basically tell
> the viewer what's going to happen. The final scene with Giles is
> good but not great. The generalities make sense - these two
> characters should be having this conversation, and Buffy should still
> (as in "Prophecy Girl" and others) be allegorically like every
> older kid who still kinda expects life to be fair. The actual
> dialogue, though, simply isn't as poignant as it thinks it is. The
> very, very end is quite nice, at least, starting with Buffy saying the
> title phrase.
I always loved that scene.
>
> A few other points:
>
> 1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
> killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
> afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
> is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
> [These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
> them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
Rhetorical. check.
>
> 2) Clunky Expository Dialogue Of The Week Award goes to the kid at the
> beginning, explaining to no one in particular that his mom is always
> late.
>
> 3) Spike, Dru, and the bird was strangely sad, in a way that I think
> Joss and friends have been trying for since the debut of these
> characters.
I agree. This scene between them does give a better insight into the
relationship between those two characters. Also, that if you don't feed
birds, they die. :)
>
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
Can of worms: Open
This has been a debate that is probably still going on in Buffy
messageboards as I type this. I firmly believe that vampires do retain a
piece of themselves after they are turned but as you watch future
episodes, this does get elaborated on (at least enough to cause more
excessive arguments on those messageboards).
(On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
I'm going to hold my comments to this until later on in the season.
>
<snip>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Fair enough. Now to the really good stuff. :)
Don Sample
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I always thought it was interesting how quickly she assessed the
> situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene. She
> used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
But there was a definite "We've signed these guys for more episodes, we
can't kill them yet" vibe to the confrontation. Why didn't Buffy dust
Dru on her way out the door? Why didn't she come back with a Molotov
cocktail to toss down into the basement before the vamps could get out?
Matthias Wolf
Actually, as far as these episodes are concerned, the AoQ rating is
spot-on. Sure, Lie To Me has some moments of greatness that exceed
both Witch and The Pack, but if you look at the entire episode and not
just these moments, the two earlier episodes are superior.
--
Matthias Wolf
David Empey
> 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> theme for someone?
>
>
Which was the other one?
--
Dave Empey
"This can be easily fixed by taking 17 levels of Ranger."
--Nockermensch
Mike Zeares
>
> And then we have some of my favourite quotes from the episode:
>
> - When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
> great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
> friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
> *me*! This is great!" line.
> - Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
> Bronze.
> - Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
> dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
> - Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
> Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
> - Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
> and the others to the Sunset Club.
> - Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
> Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
>
> For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
> of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
> got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)
They were actually cut after the first showing. My tape was of the
first repeat, and all of those lines were missing. I know it was recut
to replace the Sisters of Mercy song that was in the original airing,
but I've never been able to come up with any reason for cutting the
lines. I can only clearly remember a couple of them. It bugs me
whenever I watch it.
Is the DVD version's runtime (minus commercials) as long as the
original airing?
-- Mike Zeares
Daniel Damouth
news:dsample-815210...@news.giganews.com:
> And then we have some of my favourite quotes from the episode:
>
> - When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
> great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
> friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
> *me*! This is great!" line.
> - Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
> Bronze.
> - Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
> dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
> - Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
> Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
> - Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
> and the others to the Sunset Club.
> - Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
> Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
>
> For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first
> couple of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs.
> (I've still got my tape of the unadulterated version of the
> episode.)
Holy crap! I do dimly remember those lines. I hope I didn't throw out
that videotape.
I wonder if Joss was responsible for all that eliding.
-Dan Damouth
Daniel Damouth
> In article <7oCdnar3QPa...@comcast.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I always thought it was interesting how quickly she assessed the
>> situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene.
>> She used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
>
> But there was a definite "We've signed these guys for more
> episodes, we can't kill them yet" vibe to the confrontation. Why
> didn't Buffy dust Dru on her way out the door? Why didn't she
> come back with a Molotov cocktail to toss down into the basement
> before the vamps could get out?
I think Buffy has an aversion to killing helpless creatures, even if
they are evil. (Unless there's a good reason to, as in WSWB).
-Dan Damouth
shuggie
David Empey wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1139465006.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> > feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> > theme for someone?
> >
> >
>
> Which was the other one?
>
Morgan in Puppet Show.
shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
<snip>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
Try the veal.
<snip>
> With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> we wouldn't care about them anyway?
They don't get much character development because you only have 45
minutes.
<snip>
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
As Buffy says to Ford that the vampire 'remembers your life'. Whether
the personality comes from that, from the demon or a combination of
both is not clear.
>(On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?)
People have argued it both ways. Personally I think it's his original
soul. But since I think that 'Angel', whatever that is, is the sum of
body, soul, demon etc then I don't necessarily think that his soul *is*
him merely a (very important) part of him.
>As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Something you may have missed, I did for several viewings of this ep,
was that the vamp killed at the end is Ford (you can see his name on
the gravestone if you're quick). So Spike kept to his side of the
bargain even though Ford didn't really deliver the goods. Now it could
be argued that Spike did that knowing that Buffy would stake him as
soon as he rose, but I find it interesting. I think the reason I missed
it was that the vibe from the final scene with the alive Ford was that
Spike was going to take out his frustration over being locked in the
cellar on Ford by killing him horribly.
Apteryx
news:kntlu1ltp4m398rnu...@4ax.com...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
>>Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously (and this is
>>from someone in the small minority who believes Season 1 was the best
>>season
>>of BtVS). To me, the 15th best episode of BtVS, and 6th best of Season 2
>>(and the best of Season 2 so far by quite a wide margin).
>
> Actually, as far as these episodes are concerned, the AoQ rating is
> spot-on. Sure, Lie To Me has some moments of greatness that exceed
> both Witch and The Pack, but if you look at the entire episode and not
> just these moments, the two earlier episodes are superior.
Not so. Now I assume that if YOU look at the entire episodes, you believe
Witch and The Pack are superior (though I can't imagine why), but I can
assure you that if I do, I don't find that at all.
Witch and The Pack are fine as they are, both above average, but they don't
approach the level of Lie to Me. That is on a par (more or less) with the
best episodes of Season 1 (which as far as I am concerned are Angel and
Prophecy Girl). It has the beginnings of ambiguity, with Buffy forced to
feel sympathy for Ford despite wanting to hold on to the black and white
morality of childhood. It shows Angel still afflicted by the guilt of what
he did over a hundred years before (and rightly so, as people are still
dying as a result of it). To the rest of the world, Drusilla is a monster,
yet he knows that as between he and her, he is the monster. And it shows the
soulless monster Spike, prepared to forgo his best chance yet to kill the
slayer, because of his love for Drusilla - and even honourable, keeping his
bargain with Ford despite the disappointing result.
On top of that (or prehaps part of that), we see Spike and Drusilla hitting
their straps for the first time, after what I'd call an mixed start in
School Hard.
--
Apteryx
kenm47
- When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
*me*! This is great!" line.
- Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
Bronze.
- Willow's "Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty
dark. Sometimes you need a story," line in the Sunset club.
- Ford saying "You are Spike, right? William the Bloody?" to
Spike when he first meets him in the factory.
- Ford's "Oh Christ!" when he hears about the visit from Angel
and the others to the Sunset Club.
- Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)"
Thanks for pointing those out. I was going to bring up to AOQ that he's
seen a slightly altered version and hoping someone would provide the
missing lines. Were there other snips?
I thought the story was inability to buy the rights to whatever music
is playing in the background for these moments? Weird.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
The Puppet Show
Ken (Brooklyn)
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
>
> For some strange reason all those lines got cut after the first couple
> of showings of the episode in the US, and from the DVDs. (I've still
> got my tape of the unadulterated version of the episode.)
WHAT?! No, seriously. Seriously and moreso. I mean... no, it's
impossible, say it isn't so!
Darnit, this means I have to go and watch my DVDs just to make sure.
The pain, the pain!
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities? (On a
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Hmm. I have to think hard. The problem is that part of my answer
involves a minor spoiler pulled from the Angel series. I suppose that
won't be too bad.
The demon that takes over the vacated body is effectively a
particularly nasty dumb animal. In possessing the dead human, it gains
the intelligence of that human and all of his or her memories. The
demon is by nature (haha) evil, inclined to mayhem and violence, a
blood-drinker and eater of flesh. The human intelligence gives it
scope. The human soul is innocent. Departed from the body, it departs
also from all the good and evil that person did in life. The soul
itself is without memory.
My guess is being sired as a vampire severs soul and personality. The
demon-soul needs the personality in order to function.
Scythe Matters
> I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> I'd expected not to see them again for another week or two.
I'd be careful about assuming that "the vampires" are "the plot" (by
which I guess you mean what you think you've identified as a
multi-episode arc). Sometimes they are. Sometimes they're not. Certainly
you should know by now that the vampires are never _really_ the arc,
though they may serve the arc's needs from time to time.
> 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> anything other than an idiot?
They've portrayed her as unbelievably self-centered, to be sure...though
as you must see that's changing; slowly, but inexorably. She has moron
moments, yes, but then so does everyone else on this show (including, in
relative terms, Giles and Willow). The MA scene portrays her as
Cordelia: Center of the Universe* rather than a moron (recall: "This is
all about me! Me, me, me!"), which is an older conception of the
character, but one attached to a lot more complexity by this point in
the show.
* And the point you should remember from "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" we
know Cordelia's self-aware about her personality. "[Marcie]'s evil,
okay? Way eviler than me." and "Hey! You think I'm never lonely because
I'm so cute and popular? I can be surrounded by people and be completely
alone. It's not like any of them really know me. I don't even know if
they like me half the time. People just want to be in a popular zone.
Sometimes when I talk, everyone's so busy agreeing with me, they don't
hear a word I say." The personality that spouts the Marie Antoinette
nonsense is Cordelia maintaining her façade, her image, her reputation.
> 2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
> Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
Yeah. You'd think that, eventually, that would cause some problems.
> Another general comment before we go on to cool sequence #2: notice how
> well Buffy deals with having both Angel and Ford acting all suspicious
> and/or lying to her. No living in denial. No "you're just
> jealous" to the people who try to warn her. Not even the luxury of
> lashing out too hard at her friends for investigating Ford behind her
> back, since they were trying to look out for her, and it did indeed
> help.
OK, but consider this in light of your objection to Buffy re: Xander's
overt jealousy. What Buffy is showing here is something that they've
been building towards since the first episode: a clarity and sense of
purpose about what's important to her calling, her "mission" if you
will. Despite the jealousy, Xander has always been there for her when it
mattered...thus the jealousy isn't important and she can dismiss it.
What Ford's doing is wrong, despite him being an old friend and an old
crush...thus what's important is that she do her job and she can dismiss
her feelings. Consider what it must take for her to kill a close friend
(and potential boyfriend); not once, but twice. And then wrap it all up:
killing Ford, Angel's ever-more-horrible past, feelings of mistrust
towards Angel vis-ŕ-vis Drusilla, Xander's apparent inability to move
on, Willow/Xander/Angel conspiring "against" her, and you get to the
final scene. Given her role as world-saving Slayer, it's easy to forget
that she's still a high school junior. But she's being forced to grow up.
What gets interesting is the conflict between her character and the
point the episode is making: being an adult is about the shades of grey,
but Buffy is operating with more and more surety and confidence. This
episode hammers that point _and_ that conflict home, and it won't be the
last to do so.
> it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want.
I think you're overlooking the elephant in the room. This is the purpose
that Angel serves: investigating the ambiguity of good and evil,
redemption, etc. There's endless moral ambiguity there, and as you note
we're just starting to really scratch this surface. (It doesn't hurt
that, as I think you correctly identify, this is the episode where
Boreanaz starts to actually act a little bit.)
> Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
Yeah. Boy, wouldn't that be something?.
> 5) This is the second episode in less than a full season to prominently
> feature a teen with untreatable brain cancer. A particular favorite
> theme for someone?
It's the Hellmouth. ;-)
kenm47
Well <ambiguous and thus impossible to be a Spoiler and referencing
debateable way in the future issue>, maybe not always.
And since I've found a rot-13 encoder:
V fgvyy guvax Wblpr'f Frnfba 5 ceboyrz jnf pnhfrq ol cebkvzvgl gb naq
frafvgvivgl gb gur cbjreyvar fbzr pnyyrq Gur Xrl, bguref pnyyrq Qnja.
Ohssl, orvat Gur Fynlre naq lbhat jnf abg fvzvyneyl nssrpgrq.
Ken (Brooklyn)
rrh...@acme.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> That's it for me. I'm through.
>
> When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> suppose we have to start somewhere.
>
> Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
>
> (wait for it... )
> (wait for it...)
>
> Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
OK, you had me going. I was mentally composing my reply, where I point
out that in response to your review of "Halloween" I said that the
series was about to hit its stride, but that Episode 7 wasn't one I
particularly care for. It turns out you like Ep. 7 more than I did. I
don't have any real objection to the episode. It just doesn't really
click for me. I would probably have given it a "decent".
Richard R. Hershberger
rrh...@acme.com
We can also take her not killing Dru on the way out as strategy. I'm
going from distant memory, but as I recall the incident there was a
deal that if she could go she wouldn't kill Dru. A reputation for
keeping deals makes it more likely for such deals to work in the
future. Think of the stereotype villain boss who hires an assassin and
after the job is done kills him. You gotta figure that eventually word
would get around and the hiring process would get more difficult.
Buffy, though, is someone you can work with, even if you're evil.
Richard R. Hershberger
Scythe Matters
> V fgvyy guvax Wblpr'f Frnfba 5 ceboyrz jnf pnhfrq ol cebkvzvgl gb naq
> frafvgvivgl gb gur cbjreyvar fbzr pnyyrq Gur Xrl, bguref pnyyrq Qnja.
> Ohssl, orvat Gur Fynlre naq lbhat jnf abg fvzvyneyl nssrpgrq.
Yes, but:
Fvapr Qnja jnf ng Urzrel naq va Fhaalqnyr qhevat frnfba 2, jr pna oynzr
ure sbe gurfr nf jryy. ;-)
arnold kim
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote in message
news:1139496298.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There's also the fact that if she dusted Dru, she would lose her advantage
over Spike. Keep his achilles' heel around, you have something to
potentially keep him in check.
Arnold Kim
arnold kim
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7oCdnar3QPa...@comcast.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
>> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
>
>
> Can of worms: Open
>
> This has been a debate that is probably still going on in Buffy
> messageboards as I type this. I firmly believe that vampires do retain a
> piece of themselves after they are turned but as you watch future
> episodes, this does get elaborated on (at least enough to cause more
> excessive arguments on those messageboards).
I think that a vampire basically retains a "copy" of the original
personality. In other words, a vampire's personality is basically the
original personality, except turned evil and given lots of power. A
non-spoiler example would be Jesse in "The Harvest"- the power and lack of
conscience that came with being a vampire basically allowed a "geek" to
unleash his inner badass. Others might not be changed at all, except now
they like killing people.
Arnold Kim
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Do not confuse coincidence with fate.
Oh, sorry. Wrong show.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
John Briggs
Yes, they had to take off "Neverland" by The Sisters of Mercy. They
obviously took the opportunity to do a comprehensive re-edit.
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The version that Space in Canada reran for years afterward still had all
those lines in it. (I missed it the last time it came around in their
rotation, so I don't know if that's still the case.)
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Since the music played in the background throughout the whole scene in
the Sunset club, it makes no sense for them to just cut Willow's one
line because of it, and it would have no effect on the other scenes.
The only thing that makes any sense at all is that the episode came in a
minute or so long, and they had to trim it a bit.
Don Sample
"shuggie" <shu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> > Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> > left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
>
> As Buffy says to Ford that the vampire 'remembers your life'. Whether
> the personality comes from that, from the demon or a combination of
> both is not clear.
To quote from another character about becoming a vampire: "What we once
were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our
hearts even if they no longer beat. Simple death won't change that."
But the demon will take what it finds in the human, and twist it around
into something evil.
>
> >(On a
> > related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> > original soul, or was a new being born at that point?)
>
> People have argued it both ways. Personally I think it's his original
> soul.
Later developments will clear this up.
> Something you may have missed, I did for several viewings of this ep,
> was that the vamp killed at the end is Ford (you can see his name on
> the gravestone if you're quick). So Spike kept to his side of the
> bargain even though Ford didn't really deliver the goods. Now it could
> be argued that Spike did that knowing that Buffy would stake him as
> soon as he rose, but I find it interesting. I think the reason I missed
> it was that the vibe from the final scene with the alive Ford was that
> Spike was going to take out his frustration over being locked in the
> cellar on Ford by killing him horribly.
Ford did deliver the goods. He delivered Buffy into a locked room with
Spike and a bunch of his minions without any of her friends for backup.
It wasn't Ford's fault that Spike let her get away.
Don Sample
"arnold kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
To go all Freud on you, I think that the soul in the Buffyverse is the
source of the super-ego. That thing inside you that provides an
idealized version of what you think you should be. Take away the human
soul with its values of right and wrong, and replace it with one that
has those things reversed, and you've got a vampire. The ego and the id
remain pretty much unchanged.
kenm47
OK. I'll give it a try. The Buffy-verse human soul is the thing that
lets people feel empathy for others, even where that empathy does not
achieve a selfish goal of the person feeling it. It's altruism. It's
that thing that makes some of us IRL choke up watching, or even still
on re-watching, an actress in a silly little TV fantasy show deliver a
line like: "Giles, I'm sixteen years old. I don't wanna die." (And
there are tougher lines to come)
And yes, some humans can lack that empathy as well, but they are in
theory and in general (with exceptions, naturally) redeemable and can
learn to feel again. But Buffy-verse vampires are incapable of it -
except Angel.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mike Zeares
Don Sample wrote:
>
> The version that Space in Canada reran for years afterward still had all
> those lines in it. (I missed it the last time it came around in their
> rotation, so I don't know if that's still the case.)
Ah. I forgot about that. Didn't the show continue to air on Monday in
Canada after it moved to Tuesday on WB? I remember a lot of mock hate
of Canada back in the day, because they sometimes got a better Buffy
deal then we did.
-- Mike Zeares
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Some Canadian stations were showing it on the Monday, right up to the
end. You could see season 3 episodes the Saturday before they were
shown on Tuesday in the US. (Which led to us getting to see Graduation
Day II *long* before the US did.)
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:The other excellent scene is the confrontation at the end. It's been
:set up so that Buffy has rather recklessly gotten herself into a bad
:situation (I feel like a certain perceptive character may have
:mentioned that impatience was a flaw of hers...). She's genuinely
:alone and against insurmountable odds; she doesn't usually get into
:real danger of this caliber. So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
:a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
:attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
:less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
:runs with it. Good stuff.
Just want to make sure you understand that the
vampire which Buffy so casually stakes at the end of that
scene is Ford. That wasn't obvious to me the first time I
saw this episode.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Clairel
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
> > (or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
> > Writer: Joss Whedon
> > Director: Joss Whedon
> >
> > That's it for me. I'm through.
> >
> > When I started this series, I didn't imagine that it was even capable
> > of coming up with an episode so appallingly bad. It's hard to even
> > know where to begin dissecting through all the putridness, but I
> > suppose we have to start somewhere.
> >
> > Well, first let me mention that with the talk about quitting and the
> > hyperbole about badness I've actually been...
> >
> > (wait for it... )
> > (wait for it...)
> >
> > Lying to you. Thank you, I'll be here all month.
>
> >
> > I'm used to the pattern of alternating "plot" episodes with one
> > or two standalones, so since the vampires were in "Halloween,"
> > opening scene was full of nice surprises, from Drusilla's appearance,
> > to Angel being the one to appear in the nick of time rather than Buffy,
> > to the camera cutting back and forth between the vamps' scene and
> > their unseen watcher. It's unclear at this point in the show what
> > exactly the relationship is between Angel and Dru... siblings? Stay
> > tuned, dear viewers!
> >
> It's been a long time since I've seen this episode (I really need to
> borrow S2 from my sister to follow along better) but I do like how it
> does show there is a history between Angel and Dru. What history that is
> will be hit upon later.
>
> > Back in school, it's time to re-address the two complaints that
> > appear in pretty much every AOQ review, so let's get them over with
> > quickly:
> >
> > 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> > stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> > way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> > interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> > average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> > anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> > to the Cordelia-is-annoying-but-not-necessarily-stupid Shylock scene
> > from OOM/S.
>
> It is way too late in the evening for an attempt to make that comparison
> but I'm sure somebody out there is going to give it a try. I didn't
> particular care much for Cordelia in the earlier episodes myself. She
> did grow on me though.
> >
> > 2) Seriously, I really want Xander to stop talking shit about every guy
> > Buffy is interested in, or at least stop being so obvious about it.
> > it's there.) If you were Buffy in this situation, would you tolerate
> > this guy who hasn't made it a secret that he's not over you trying
> > to sabotage every potential relationship you might get into? Also -
> > granted, some time has passed since "Prophecy Girl," but if you
> > were Xander, would you be able to go back to your pre-painful-rejection
> > ways so easily?
>
> Xander is getting better at dealing with the other guys in Buffy's life
> by this point but he definitely has residual issues of the rejection in
> 'Prophecy Girl'. If I remember correctly, Buffy (from what I remember)
> seems to handle his sarcasm pretty well and for the most part, lets it
> slide. However, his repeated "You're not wrong." was pretty funny.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > I think both Ford's character and the idea of his wannabe-vampire
> > cult are examples of things that work decently but could've been
> > better. I like the idea of Ford living out his fantasy novel, but for
> > whatever reason, the execution just didn't grab me. His habit of
> > laughing for no reason is pretty off-putting. Eventually all his
> > secrets come out, and despite how she might agonize about it later, in
> > the heat of the moment Buffy has the obvious answer; she does feel
> > sorry for him, but still disapproves of how he's dealing with the bad
> > hand he drew [once again, shades of "Out Of Mind, Out Of Sight"].
> > Buffy was giving Ford chances at redemption until the very end, but he
> > chose his path. With the other cultists, it's kinda a
> > which-came-first question: do we not care about them because they're
> > not very interesting, or do they get no character development because
> > we wouldn't care about them anyway?
>
> character development goes, I think it's just enough to push along the
> story but not enough that you form any sort of attachment to the
> character. He and Buffy have history. check. He has ulterior motive.
> check. Buffy gives him a chance. check. He turns on Buffy. check.
>
> So, he fits the requirements of the antagonist enough to keep him
> interesting but we, as the viewer really don't need to feel any real
> sympathy for him. It's Buffy we need to feel sympathy for.
>
> >
> > Since the beginning of the series, the character of Angel has been
> > alternately intriguing and confusing. I valued his role in the plots,
> > but I didn't particularly like him and I didn't really know why. I
> > think I may remember "Lie To Me" as the episode where I finally
> > "got" Angel. He's still underplayed, but there's a lot of
> > emotion and nuance underneath the mostly-dead-panning. Watch the way
> > he's a little more gentle when visiting Willow in her room, and his
> > real concern for Buffy in that scene. Or the very slightly pouty way
> > he asks Xander to stop calling him "Dead Boy."
>
> Angel is an intriguing character. I've gotta say, he definitely has layers.
> >
> > There are two really outstanding sequences in this show. The first of
> > them is the talk between Buffy and Angel. Both of them come in ready
> > to deal with sharing the truth; whatever else might happen, it's
> > better in the long run. The timing is perfect as Angel tells his
> > story, Buffy absorbs it, acknowledges that this is what she'd asked
> > for, and with trust thus established, Angel is able to give her the
> > warning about Ford. Also, I'm generally not much one for flashy
> > directing, but the pull-back past the curtains really works well. (I
> > also kinda liked the spinning hand-held look of the scene immediately
> > following that.)
>
> I'll have to watch for that when I see it again.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > The other excellent scene is the confrontation at the end. It's been
> > set up so that Buffy has rather recklessly gotten herself into a bad
> > situation (I feel like a certain perceptive character may have
> > mentioned that impatience was a flaw of hers...). She's genuinely
> > alone and against insurmountable odds; she doesn't usually get into
> > real danger of this caliber. So the vampires pour in, the Slayer makes
> > a quick decision and goes for Drusilla, hoping that Spike's
> > attachment to her can be a trump card. It's a guess, since she knows
> > less than the viewer does, but she decides it's her best chance and
> > runs with it. Good stuff.
>
> situation and knew that Dru was Spike's weak link in that scene. She
> used it to her advantage and it definitely worked.
> >
> > rather than playing it for suspense, the show has Buffy basically tell
> > the viewer what's going to happen. The final scene with Giles is
> > good but not great. The generalities make sense - these two
> > characters should be having this conversation, and Buffy should still
> > (as in "Prophecy Girl" and others) be allegorically like every
> > older kid who still kinda expects life to be fair. The actual
> > dialogue, though, simply isn't as poignant as it thinks it is. The
> > very, very end is quite nice, at least, starting with Buffy saying the
> > title phrase.
>
> I always loved that scene.
> >
> > A few other points:
> >
> > 1) Okay, so Angelus was the one who drove Drusilla to insanity and
> > killed everyone close to her. So Spike got involved with her
> > afterward? I'd assumed he'd known her before she went nuts. And
> > is her "weakness" the same thing, or is it a separate issue?
> > [These questions are rhetorical, unless future episodes don't clear
> > them up, in which case they're addressed to youse guys.]
>
> Rhetorical. check.
> >
> > 2) Clunky Expository Dialogue Of The Week Award goes to the kid at the
> > beginning, explaining to no one in particular that his mom is always
> > late.
> >
> > 3) Spike, Dru, and the bird was strangely sad, in a way that I think
> > Joss and friends have been trying for since the debut of these
> > characters.
>
> I agree. This scene between them does give a better insight into the
> relationship between those two characters. Also, that if you don't feed
> birds, they die. :)
> >
> > 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> > Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> > left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
>
>
> Can of worms: Open
>
> This has been a debate that is probably still going on in Buffy
> messageboards as I type this. I firmly believe that vampires do retain a
> piece of themselves after they are turned but as you watch future
> episodes, this does get elaborated on (at least enough to cause more
> excessive arguments on those messageboards).
>
> > related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> > evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> > straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> > gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> > who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> > show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
>
>
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > So...
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Solid all around.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Good
>
> Fair enough. Now to the really good stuff. :)
--Well, no, not fair enough. "Lie To Me" *WAS* the start of the really
really good stuff, in my opinion. (Don't worry, I've been reminded
about the no spoilers so I'm not going to talk about subsequent
episodes at all.) I just remember that way back in fall of 1997 when I
was watching first-run episodes of BtVS, this was the one that really
made me sit up and take notice, and want to keep on being a faithful
viewer of the serious.
It was the episode that turned a corner for BtVS, making it more than
just a moderately amusing series and showing how much more the show
could be. It was the greatest episode up to this point in the series.
Rating any previous episodes more highly than "Lie To Me" is just
crazy. It was flat-out brilliant from beginning to end.
By the way, if anyone is inclined to think these are just the words of
a Spike fan who doesn't care about anything else, bear in mind that
Spike's role in this episode was pretty minor and really could have
been played by any vampire gang leader that Ford managed to track down.
(Yeah, the dead bird thing was interesting and Spike's snarky comments
to Ford were amusing, but all that stuff was hardly central to the
story.) If I were talking about turning points for *Spike* I probably
would have pointed to School Hard as the turning point episode, since
it introduced him and starred him. But I'm talking about turning
points for BtVS as a whole -- turning points in quality and in the
seriousness of the themes and philosophical concerns it dealt with.
When I think back to what first struck me as a viewer in fall of 1997,
I think of Ford's selfish desperation, his willingness to sacrifice
other people and sacrifice his own humanity merely in order to cling to
a semblance of life that should really just be called existence, not
truly life at all. I think back to the Sunset Club, Diego with his
pathetic polyester cape, and the ditzy blonde girl Chanterelle
nattering on about the Lonely Ones. I think of Angel's monologue, in
the Sunset Club, to Willow and Xander about how pathetically deluded
people like Diego and Chanterelle are, and how they know nothing about
what vampires are really like. And I think about the guy walking past
Angel at that moment, wearing exact duplicates of Angel's
burgundy-colored shirt and dark trousers.
The mixture of seriousness and humor in this episode was absolutely
perfect. Joss totally knocked it out of the park with this episode.
I never was a great admirer of Prophecy Girl, and I only say I like The
Pack because it had some good moments and I have to have *some* season
1 episode that I pick as my favorite, but in fact "Lie To Me" towers
over Prophecy Girl and the Pack and all the other episodes that come
before it, and overshadows them all so completely that I can't even put
them in the same category.
"Lie To Me" is BtVS's first really great episode, the first one that
really fulfills the potential of this series. To call it anything less
than "Excellent" is...bizarre.
Clairel
Clairel
Clairel wrote:
> > > AOQ rating: Good
> >
> > Fair enough. Now to the really good stuff. :)
>
> --Well, no, not fair enough. "Lie To Me" *WAS* the start of the really
> really good stuff, in my opinion. (Don't worry, I've been reminded
> about the no spoilers so I'm not going to talk about subsequent
> episodes at all.) I just remember that way back in fall of 1997 when I
> was watching first-run episodes of BtVS, this was the one that really
> made me sit up and take notice, and want to keep on being a faithful
> viewer of the serious.
--Correction: Of course I meant to write "viewer of the series" there.
But it's kind of a Freudian slip, because I had been thinking of how
much more SERIOUS this episode was than any of the preceding ones.
(Yeah, I know -- Prophecy Girl, "I'm sixteen and I don't want to die,"
etc., etc., but that just didn't do it for me for some reason, whereas
Lie To Me did.)
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
What's weirder is that I think I remember these three:
> - When Ford first shows up in the lounge, Buffy's "This is
> great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all your
> friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about
> *me*! This is great!" line.
> - Buffy's "You drink--non blood drinks," line to Angel in the
> Bronze.
> - Spike telling Dru "It's going to be alright, baby," while
> Buffy is holding a stake to her heart.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Something you may have missed, I did for several viewings of this ep,
> was that the vamp killed at the end is Ford (you can see his name on
> the gravestone if you're quick). So Spike kept to his side of the
> bargain even though Ford didn't really deliver the goods. Now it could
> be argued that Spike did that knowing that Buffy would stake him as
> soon as he rose, but I find it interesting. I think the reason I missed
> it was that the vibe from the final scene with the alive Ford was that
> Spike was going to take out his frustration over being locked in the
> cellar on Ford by killing him horribly.
I hadn't noticed it when I wrote the review, and then it occurred to me
later. I missed it for the same reason: it really seems like Spike is
just going to ignore the deal. So instead of points for restraint, I
guess the show gets points for a nice bit of misdirection (though it
would've been even betetr had they made it clearer it was him).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> > stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> > way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> > interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> > average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> > anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> > anything other than an idiot?
>
> They've portrayed her as unbelievably self-centered, to be sure...though
> as you must see that's changing; slowly, but inexorably. She has moron
> moments, yes, but then so does everyone else on this show (including, in
> relative terms, Giles and Willow). The MA scene portrays her as
> Cordelia: Center of the Universe* rather than a moron (recall: "This is
> all about me! Me, me, me!"), which is an older conception of the
> character, but one attached to a lot more complexity by this point in
> the show.
I wouldn't have objected had it just been her sympathizing with MA.
But then there's the oppressed/depressed gag, and above all, "she was
going to give them cake!" No one could possibly think that MA was
going to give anyone cake unless they were, well, very dense.
("Let them eat cake" actually comes from a character in a Rosseau [sp?]
satire, not MA, but let's just assume the teacher didn't know that.)
> What Buffy is showing here is something that they've
> been building towards since the first episode: a clarity and sense of
> purpose about what's important to her calling, her "mission" if you
> will. Despite the jealousy, Xander has always been there for her when it
> mattered...thus the jealousy isn't important and she can dismiss it.
> What Ford's doing is wrong, despite him being an old friend and an old
> crush...thus what's important is that she do her job and she can dismiss
> her feelings. Consider what it must take for her to kill a close friend
> (and potential boyfriend); not once, but twice. And then wrap it all up:
> killing Ford, Angel's ever-more-horrible past, feelings of mistrust
> towards Angel vis-à-vis Drusilla, Xander's apparent inability to move
> on, Willow/Xander/Angel conspiring "against" her, and you get to the
> final scene. Given her role as world-saving Slayer, it's easy to forget
> that she's still a high school junior. But she's being forced to grow up.
>
> What gets interesting is the conflict between her character and the
> point the episode is making: being an adult is about the shades of grey,
> but Buffy is operating with more and more surety and confidence. This
> episode hammers that point _and_ that conflict home, and it won't be the
> last to do so.
I really like that interpretation.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <K_BGf.137831$vH5.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> > No. Sorry. Nice tease at the start, but the opinion of someone who prefers
> > Witch and The Pack to Lie to Me is not to be taken seriously.
Because we understand that everyone's opinion is worthwhile, except
those who clash with Apteryx's.
I'm trying to get people not to get too hung up over the damn ratings,
but I guess it's hard not to.
> I think it might be a case of rising expectations.
I don't think so, since I'm really trying to avoid that. "Witch,"
maybe. But that episode had an excellent comedic touch throughout with
something deeply twisted underneath that made it, as I said at the
time, a joy to watch. And BTVS through 2-7 has yet to come up with
another episode as deliciously fucked up (and loaded with character
development for the supporting cast too) as "The Pack."
KenM47
thoughts:
1. "Written and Directed By Joss Whedon" is generally a sign that
something special is about to be shown.
2. In case AOQ d/n/k, Juliet Landau is the daughter of Martin Landau
and Barbara Bain. I always found Dru way hotter than Cordy, but I may
be in the minority there.
3. A good part of the episode AH's make-up is way too orange. Nice
slippers though.
4. Remember, when this show aired weird cults were in the news. There
was the Heaven's Gate group that committed mass suicide expecting to
get in that "mother ship" Buffy later mentions. Also vampires were
already cultish - Anne Rice (mentioned by Spike in SH) was very big.
Vamps were spreading out with new TV shows as well like the short
lived (no pun intended) "Kindred: The Embraced" on Fox the prior year.
5. There are bits of Buffy-verse canon spread throughout the episode
that will be important later.
6. The Cordy MA "joke" is a diversion. Yes, Cordy is silly background
noise, but it's all for the set-up of Willow right then passing the
"Vampire?" note to Buffy JUST as the class bell rings. Timing!
7. Misc. lines: Great timing and take on "Oh! That's what that song is
about."
"Whatting a what?"
"There aren't two of those in the world."
"You have too many thoughts."
8. James Marsters and Ms Landau both really "act." Marsters reveals
Spike's jealousy of Angel. Landau did loony to a T.
9. Cute sight gag when Angel says these people don't even know how
vampires dress just as one of the kids comes down the steps wearing
almost exactly what Angel is wearing.
Done. Very Cathartic. :-) "Liar."
Ken (Brooklyn)
Eric Hunter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 7: "Lie To Me"
> (or "I don't do nothin' but tell the truth!")
>
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> left, given that some of the vamps have such... personalities?
We were told (or more accurately, Xander and Willow
were told by Giles) in WttH/tH that there is nothing
left of the original person after they turn into a vamp.
This is immediately disproved by Jesse, who can act
enough like his human self to fool Buffy and Xander,
and who still has the hots for Cordy after being turned.
People who like vamps as unremittingly evil PC villains
tend to ignore this, and assume the Giles was telling
the truth. In fact, Giles was, either:
A) mistaken, or
B) lying to make it easier for Xander and Willow to
stake Jesse if they had to, or
C) telling the kids an overly simplified version of
the truth because he didn't feel they were mature
enough to deal with the shades of grey.
Since one of the stories of BtVS is the story of Buffy
growing up, I prefer choice C.
Soul is never defined in BtVS, but it seems to be a
metaphysical component of the conscience, a sort
of spiritual Jiminy Cricket, and vampires lack it.
The evidence suggests that this, and a hunger for
human blood, are all that actually separate vampires
from humans. Obviously the Watchers want the
Slayer to see the vampires as unremittingly evil,
since that makes killing them the only right thing
to do, but I suspect they may be skewing the
Intelligence to support their cause.
Eric.
--
Don Sample
"Eric Hunter" <hunt...@comcast.invalid> wrote:
> Soul is never defined in BtVS, but it seems to be a
> metaphysical component of the conscience, a sort
> of spiritual Jiminy Cricket, and vampires lack it.
More like it's been replaced by a Jiminy Cricket who's always telling
them to kill, and torture and be evil.
Daniel Damouth
news:vl3ou1p4ibea9b7n7...@4ax.com:
> OK. I've now had my chance to rewatch the episode. So my random
> thoughts:
> 2. In case AOQ d/n/k, Juliet Landau is the daughter of Martin
> Landau and Barbara Bain. I always found Dru way hotter than Cordy,
> but I may be in the minority there.
I thought she was at her most beautiful in the moonlight scene at the
beginning, in some sort of white negligee. Either the camera focused
on her mouth a lot while she was speaking, or it was just my mind.
-Dan Damouth
Eric Hunter
> In article <yN2dneVjBdd...@comcast.com>,
> "Eric Hunter" <hunt...@comcast.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Soul is never defined in BtVS, but it seems to be a
>> metaphysical component of the conscience, a sort
>> of spiritual Jiminy Cricket, and vampires lack it.
>
> More like it's been replaced by a Jiminy Cricket who's
> always telling them to kill, and torture and be evil.
Well, this begs the entire nature vs. nurture question,
doesn't it? Fully ensouled humans can be saintly
pacifists, or evil, sadistic torturers and killers.
Without delving into spoiler territory, we know that
every human killed by a vampire does not rise as a
vampire, only those whom the vampire chooses to
sire do. Cordy, being such a self-centered 'bit-ca',
would be an excellent vampire. Buffy, being more
noble, would not. Perhaps vampires tend to be evil
torturers and killers because they were immoral
people before they were turned.
Eric.
--
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Scythe Matters wrote:
>
> > > 1) I doubt I'd like Cordelia anyway, but I wish the writers would
> > > stop changing how smart she is every episode. I still feel the best
> > > way to write this character would be to make her intelligent, but
> > > interested in completely different things than everyone else (or the
> > > average audience member). But sometimes she's just a moron. Does
> > > anyone want to explain how the Marie Antoinette scene portrays her as
> > > anything other than an idiot?
> >
> > They've portrayed her as unbelievably self-centered, to be sure...though
> > as you must see that's changing; slowly, but inexorably. She has moron
> > moments, yes, but then so does everyone else on this show (including, in
> > relative terms, Giles and Willow). The MA scene portrays her as
> > Cordelia: Center of the Universe* rather than a moron (recall: "This is
> > all about me! Me, me, me!"), which is an older conception of the
> > character, but one attached to a lot more complexity by this point in
> > the show.
>
> I wouldn't have objected had it just been her sympathizing with MA.
> But then there's the oppressed/depressed gag, and above all, "she was
> going to give them cake!" No one could possibly think that MA was
> going to give anyone cake unless they were, well, very dense.
>
> ("Let them eat cake" actually comes from a character in a Rosseau [sp?]
> satire, not MA, but let's just assume the teacher didn't know that.)
SNIP
Okay, you have never "gotten" Cordelia, so it's not suprising that you
don't get this bit. Cordelia is not sympathizing with Queen Marie An,
but is identifying with her. She is ranting on her own dethroning by the
rabble, symbolized by Willow and Xander, led by Buffy. Rants run
roughshod over reason, and Cordelia is caught up in complaining about
her own situation to the extent that she simply goes over the edge.
Cordelia's world has been inverted. Her world. She hasn't been able to
cope with the fact that her world was illusory, and that she isn't Queen
C anymore. Buffy has defined reality, now. It's Buffy's world, and Cordy
is only living in it. So she rants.
HWL
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> 4) More food for philosophizing about vampiric souls or lack thereof.
> Are we to believe that nothing of the original owner of the body is
> related question, when Angelus was "given a soul," was it his
> original soul, or was a new being born at that point?) As I've been
> realizing, it's a shame that the vamps are portrayed as so purely
> evil, demons who only look like people. That works if you want a
> straight save-the-world bravado vibe a la "Prophecy Girl," but it
> gets in the way if you want to go for some moral ambiguity, which BTVS
> clearly does want. The best we've gotten are characters like Ford,
> who can be sympathized with, but are in the end unambiguously on the
> wrong side. Imagine how powerful episodes like this could be if the
> show could get beyond pure good guys and bad guys.
>
It's worth noting that this episode is really where they begin to
explicitly play with the idea that vampires are more complex than we've
been led to believe.
It's not that they aren't evil. They are. But what they start to play
with in "Lie To Me" is the idea that they can be purely evil, and
*still psychologically complex*. Because they do have other emotions.
Spike will happily kill as many innocent people as happen to cross his
path... but he also genuinely cares about Drusilla, and will do
anything to save her. He also, as has been noted elsewhere in the
thread, has a peculiar sort of honor -- in the entire episode, Spike is
the only character who is 100% true to his word, even though he doesn't
actually gain anything from keeping it.
As for their personalities, remember exactly what Buffy told Ford?
Sure, you die, and a demon takes over your body. But it's not a demon
like in "The Exorcist," that's just animating your corpse like a puppet
or whatever. It's a demon that *remembers being you.* Think about that
for a second. Sure, it's still not the same being... but from the point
of view of the demon in question, whose memories and personality are
the same ones that belonged to the previous occupant, it must seem a
bit more complicated than that.
--Sam
James Craine
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Scythe Matters wrote:
>>They've portrayed her as unbelievably self-centered, to be sure...though
>>as you must see that's changing; slowly, but inexorably. She has moron
>>moments, yes, but then so does everyone else on this show (including, in
>>relative terms, Giles and Willow). The MA scene portrays her as
>>Cordelia: Center of the Universe* rather than a moron (recall: "This is
>>all about me! Me, me, me!"), which is an older conception of the
>>character, but one attached to a lot more complexity by this point in
>>the show.
>
>
> I wouldn't have objected had it just been her sympathizing with MA.
> But then there's the oppressed/depressed gag, and above all, "she was
> going to give them cake!" No one could possibly think that MA was
> going to give anyone cake unless they were, well, very dense.
>
> ("Let them eat cake" actually comes from a character in a Rosseau [sp?]
> satire, not MA, but let's just assume the teacher didn't know that.)
I read the following explanatin of the "let 'em eat cake"
quote years ago, probably in the WSJ.
The French government fixed the price of bread to 'help' the
poor. This led the bakers to run out of bread a lot. Bread
was the lowest priced thing in the baker's shop. To prevent
them from running out of bread a new law was passed which
said that if there was no bread then they had to sell 'cake'
at the price of bread. (This was not exactly what we know
as cake.) When MA said her quote she was thinking that there
was cake available and that the poor could buy it due to the
law. What she didn't realize what that the economy was in
such a shambles that not even the cake was available. (It
was in a shambles due to other 'helpful' laws.)
James Craine
Horace LaBadie wrote:
>
> Okay, you have never "gotten" Cordelia, so it's not suprising that you
> don't get this bit. Cordelia is not sympathizing with Queen Marie An,
> but is identifying with her. She is ranting on her own dethroning by the
> rabble, symbolized by Willow and Xander, led by Buffy. Rants run
> roughshod over reason, and Cordelia is caught up in complaining about
> her own situation to the extent that she simply goes over the edge.
> Cordelia's world has been inverted. Her world. She hasn't been able to
> cope with the fact that her world was illusory, and that she isn't Queen
> C anymore. Buffy has defined reality, now. It's Buffy's world, and Cordy
> is only living in it. So she rants.
>
> HWL
Ohhhh.... I never got that before either. And I LIKE the
Cordelia character (as opposed to liking Cordelia). Thanks.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I read the following explanatin of the "let 'em eat cake"
> quote years ago, probably in the WSJ.
>
> The French government fixed the price of bread to 'help' the
> poor. This led the bakers to run out of bread a lot. Bread
> was the lowest priced thing in the baker's shop. To prevent
> them from running out of bread a new law was passed which
> said that if there was no bread then they had to sell 'cake'
> at the price of bread. (This was not exactly what we know
> as cake.) When MA said her quote she was thinking that there
> was cake available and that the poor could buy it due to the
> law. What she didn't realize what that the economy was in
> such a shambles that not even the cake was available. (It
> was in a shambles due to other 'helpful' laws.)
That would make sense if were an actual Marie Antionette quote. But
the vapid-princess/peasants-have-no-bread story was, as a little
research shows, a story from before MA's time (and thus before those
bread laws). The most famous print version was written by Jean-Jacques
Rousseau in 1766, four years before MA married Louis XVI.
-AOQ
-AOQ
~source: Cecil Adams (straightdope.com)~