Revisiting AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
Apteryx
> Date: Jan 18 2006, 2:01 am
> Subject: AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
> To: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>
>
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
> (or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
> Writers: Ashley Gable and Thomas A. Swyden
> Director: Stephen Posey
>
> I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about
> the
> difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
> SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
> absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
> logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
> gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
> But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
> just ridiculous - it's stupid.
Yeah, pretty much. Part of the problem is we don't really see what
marvellously persuasive arguments Moloch, The Corruptor, used to corrupt
Willow. Presumably because the writers couldn't come up with anything
plausible enough, so they figured they were better off leaving it offscreen
and just leave us to suppose that Moloch, being an expert at corruption,
would no doubt have come up with something where they failed. Pretty
implausible of course, because who could be better at corruption than a TV
writer?
> Continuity and consistency may not be Joss Whedon's strong points,
> but I do expect a decent show to maintain some kind of standards. One
> or two flaws or hiccups are okay. A heaping helping of quibbles is
> not
> okay. A partial list from "Robot":
>
> 1) The series' seeming desire to give every one of its main
> characters an episode where they transform into a moron when they meet
> someone interesting. (I'm warning you now, show, if you fuck with
> Giles next episode, I'm going to start seeing other DVDs.)
Would getting tricked into a guillotine count?
> 2) Giving us both the long overdrawn Italian (?) opening, and then
> Giles explaining the whole plot again half an hour later. We got it
> the first time, move on.
Some people may have been doing the dishes the first time. Plus those monks
forming the circle of Payless were pretty effective demon fighters way back
when, considering how powerful Moloch is. If they ever some decent funding,
they could be dangerous.
> 3) The fact that Sunnydale High is basically a death trap at this
> point
> and no one seems to care.
>
> 4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going to
> die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
>
> 5) People dictating IM conversations out loud, and that dumb robotic
> voice that recites Malak's comments. And no, I don't care whether
> those things are TV convention, thanks for asking.
>
> 6) The glacially slow pace at which our heroes figure out what's
> going on while ambling back and forth between the same three
> locations.
>
> 7) Malak's ridiculously selective control of computer systems: he can
> sinisterly flip on computers when you walk into the room, but he
> doesn't notice people casting the e-spells needed to contain him.
>
> 8) That stupid-looking giant robot body, and the fact that Malak stays
> trapped in it for no real reason other than that someone decided the
> show needed another action sequence.
>
> And that's just off the top of my head. Again, one or two of them
> alone wouldn't necessarily sink an episode, but seeing them all so
> close together hurts. I'm trying to decide whether IRYJ suffers more
> from being flawed or just from being boring. Some of each, though.
Definitely from being flawed. There's too much going on for it to be boring,
and as always too much great dialogue - "To read makes our speaking English
good", "You're having an expression" and "I'll be back in the middle ages"
(Jenny's reply is almost redundant). Plus Giles's defence of books at the
end. The concept of a demon in the internet is pretty good, and, hey, new
character!
> If IRYJ has a bright side, it comes mostly in the scenes between Giles
> and That Awful Calendar Woman. Calendar is a good counter to Giles'
> old-fashioned ways, a reminder that the occult weirdos have changed
> with the times and joined the information superhighway the same as
> everyone else. The various discussions about the computer age, the
> smell of books, fears about the death of face-to-face conversation,
> and
> so on transform a personality quirk into an explanation of Giles'
> philosophy of life. I always like these flashes of personality from
> our beloved librarian, since he's the one who has to fight the
> hardest to avoid becoming either a walking plot device or a
> stock-character. As far as this particular episode goes, Calendar's
> "I know," is the most successful fade-to-another-scene suspense
> moment. Is she going to be one of Malak's minions, or has Giles
> found himself an ally? And the scenes involving making a circle
> ("that's more of a line") to contain a demon, over the internet,
> are the only times IRYJ makes the most of the comedic possibilities of
> its plot. More ridiculous and less stupid than the rest of the show.
>
> Anything else worth noting? Um... no Cordelia, yet again. A few good
> lines from Xander ("I was planning to be very witty tonight;" "I
> got to hit someone!"). At least Willow's Spidey-Sense does start
> tingling eventually, so it's not the character assassination it could
> have been. And the silent fade-out at the end is a nice change of
> pace. And that's it, really.
>
> So....
>
> One-sentence summary: Other than Giles/Calendar, nothing to see here.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Well, this is certainly a popular episode to hate, and there is very little
to enthuse over here. But sometimes a little is enough. For me, there is
enough fun going on through the silliness to get this up to Decent, and not
too bad a Decent at that. It's my 88th favourite BtVS episode, 10th best in
season 1
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
> > (or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
I'm still kinda proud of that one.
> > I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about
> > the
> > difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
> > SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
> > absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
> > logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
> > gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
> > But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
> > just ridiculous - it's stupid.
>
> Yeah, pretty much. Part of the problem is we don't really see what
> marvellously persuasive arguments Moloch, The Corruptor, used to corrupt
> Willow. Presumably because the writers couldn't come up with anything
> plausible enough, so they figured they were better off leaving it offscreen
> and just leave us to suppose that Moloch, being an expert at corruption,
> would no doubt have come up with something where they failed. Pretty
> implausible of course, because who could be better at corruption than a TV
> writer?
Agreed.
> > And that's just off the top of my head. Again, one or two of them
> > alone wouldn't necessarily sink an episode, but seeing them all so
> > close together hurts. I'm trying to decide whether IRYJ suffers more
> > from being flawed or just from being boring. Some of each, though.
>
> Definitely from being flawed. There's too much going on for it to be boring,
My milage varies. There's not much going on that I can get into
beyond an idiot plot and characters leisurely jogging back and forth
between the same tow locations for endless periods of time. I was
intially angrier about the portrayal of Willow here than I am now,
since it obviously seems less important 125+ episodes later. I still
don't like it, don't think it feels right, and don't think it helps
the story, but episodes I really like ("Pangs" and "Orpheus," to name
a couple) have screwed up Willow too, so that alone doesn't sink it.
In the original AOQ thread, William contibuted this:
"I have a theory, which is mine, hereinafter known as 'my theory'.
All
these things aren't what bother you about the episode. It's the
structure and story. The thing is, when the structure and story (and
performance) don't hold you ('you' meaning anyone) your attention
wanders
and you notice these things, which are actually there in most
episodes.
When the story and structure (and performace) is strong, you might
notice
these things, but they won't really bother you if you do."
While that's not universally true, it applies some here. IRYJ's flaws
are tangible, and I'd still suport that list, but they're most
prominent because it's a dreadfully dull episode, easily the most
boring of Season One. It's "Spiral" boring, IMHO.
> and as always too much great dialogue - "To read makes our speaking English
> good",
Never liked that line, and I think I'm alone in that.
Still like the Giles/Calendar scenes a lot, still have little or no
interest in anything else. Weak.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > marvellously persuasive arguments Moloch, The Corruptor, used to corrupt
> > Willow. Presumably because the writers couldn't come up with anything
> > plausible enough, so they figured they were better off leaving it offscreen
> > and just leave us to suppose that Moloch, being an expert at corruption,
> > would no doubt have come up with something where they failed. Pretty
> > implausible of course, because who could be better at corruption than a TV
> > writer?
>
> Agreed.
willow wasnt corrupted
the others were enthralled and looked lovingly at malcolm
as he twisted off their heads
willow was repulsed at first sight
and never stood as a passive victim
it seemed malcolm had some kind geninune affection for her
perhaps he wanted to thankher personally for his freedom
before he killed her
so for someone as lonely as willow
it would take little more than a few kinds words
from the first non-vampire boy who showed any romantic interest in her
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
Don Sample
The problem with this theory is that Moloch doesn't corrupt Willow. She
never becomes one of his drones, doing his bidding, constructing his
robot, or carving his initials into her arm. The most he gets her to do
is blow off a couple of morning classes, because she stayed up all night
chatting with him. When he *does* try to actually manipulate her into
doing something, it backfires on him.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arnold Kim
"Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ett6vc$nbl$1...@aioe.org...
>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>> Date: Jan 18 2006, 2:01 am
>> Subject: AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>> To: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>>
>>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>> (or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
(or, "To Catch a Demon". Does that make Buffy Chris Hansen?)
I have to say that, even though this is my least favorite S1 episode, it's
my favorite Buffy episode title of all. I love how it manages to work in
two literary references in only four words.
Sitll enjoy the episode, though, in a cheesy, B-movie, "so bad it's good"
kind of way.
>> Writers: Ashley Gable and Thomas A. Swyden
>> Director: Stephen Posey
>>
>> I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about
>> the
>> difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
>> SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
>> absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
>> logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
>> gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
>> But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
>> just ridiculous - it's stupid.
>
> Yeah, pretty much. Part of the problem is we don't really see what
> marvellously persuasive arguments Moloch, The Corruptor, used to corrupt
> Willow. Presumably because the writers couldn't come up with anything
> plausible enough, so they figured they were better off leaving it
> offscreen
> and just leave us to suppose that Moloch, being an expert at corruption,
> would no doubt have come up with something where they failed. Pretty
> implausible of course, because who could be better at corruption than a TV
> writer?
What I never got was why he didn't zombify Willow. Yeah, he made her think
she had a connection with him, but she still maintained free will.
For such a horrible, manipulative demon, he didn't do anything horrible to
Willow. Yeah, he lied to her about who he really was, but that's about it-
he didn't have her do anything she otherwise wouldn't have (except cut a few
classes). Made me wonder if he actually had feelings for her, and I don't
think the writers were intending to do that.
Plus I like Miss Calendar's reaction to Giles' idea of sending a computer
virus after Moloch...
> Well, this is certainly a popular episode to hate, and there is very
> little to enthuse over here. But sometimes a little is enough. For me,
> there is enough fun going on through the silliness to get this up to
> Decent, and not too bad a Decent at that. It's my 88th favourite BtVS
> episode, 10th best in season 1
It's my least favorite S1 episode, but I'd still rather watch this, which is
stupid but still kind of fun and imaginative, than ultra-depressing bores
like "Wrecked".
Arnold Kim
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>> Date: Jan 18 2006, 2:01 am
>> Subject: AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>> To: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>> (or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
>> Writers: Ashley Gable and Thomas A. Swyden
>> Director: Stephen Posey
You can divide Buffy fans between those who hate Teacher's Pet more, and
those who hate I Robot ... You Jane more. I'm in the former camp.
IRYJ's plot is just as silly as TP's, but no worse, and it has more
redeeming moments than TP.
One thing IRYJ and TP have in common is that both only gradually reveal
how lame and silly they'll get. Being Willow-centered immediately gives
the episode a head start, of course. The basic idea of a demon stuck in
the Internet has potential (certainly more than a giant bug lady). And
I'm actually rather fond of the teaser. The fifteenth-century flashback
is surprisingly elaborate by season 1 standards. Flashing forward to
1997, we get a nice not-too-heavy-handed reminder of the unhappy B-W-X
love triangle, and Giles and Ms. Calendar's bickering is quite
entertaining. (Though the Fritz character quickly establishes his tone at
a level of "way OTT" and stays there for the rest of the episode.) And
Malcolm's "Where am I?" appearing on the screen was a pretty effective
moment. Unfortunately, the main plot goes downhill from there, and most
the episode's good points come from character interactions that could have
worked equally well in any other episode.
>> But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
>> just ridiculous - it's stupid.
[snip]
>> 1) The series' seeming desire to give every one of its main
>> characters an episode where they transform into a moron when they meet
>> someone interesting.
I don't think Willow's part is too bad. As Don and mariposas have already
said, Willow doesn't fall under Malcolm's demonic sway the way Dave and
Fritz and Carlo did. Instead, she's simply obsessed because she's
desperate for someone to love, and Malcolm finds her in this vulnerable
state. As the episode progresses, her obsession doesn't keep her from
realizing that something is off about Malcolm, and she tries to pull back.
Malcolm never convinces her to turn against her friends. She never
becomes pod-Willow. IRYJ never diminishes Willow's character for me, it
just makes me feel for her. (And having read to the end, I see AOQ agrees
that IRYJ never descends to actual character assassination of Willow. So,
umm, we agree.)
>> 2) Giving us both the long overdrawn Italian (?) opening, and then
>> Giles explaining the whole plot again half an hour later. We got it
>> the first time, move on.
Yes, that part is clumsy. Compare to Angel-the-episode: when Giles
realizes that it was Darla who attacked Joyce, we just see him tell Willow
and Xander "we have a problem," and then skip over him explaining the
whole thing. A similar device would have improved things here.
>> 7) Malak's ridiculously selective control of computer systems: he can
>> sinisterly flip on computers when you walk into the room, but he
>> doesn't notice people casting the e-spells needed to contain him.
This part could have been explained away -- M. doesn't see everything on
the Internet, just what he's specifically looking for -- if the episode
hadn't foolishly gone on to imply that he *does* see every last secret and
bank transfer there is, so the plot unnecessarily shoots itself in the
foot.
>> 8) That stupid-looking giant robot body, and the fact that Malak stays
>> trapped in it for no real reason other than that someone decided the
>> show needed another action sequence.
They obviously weren't confident in their ability to keep us on the edge
of our seats over a contest with an entirely online, non-corporeal demon.
In this, they may have been correct.
>> If IRYJ has a bright side, it comes mostly in the scenes between Giles
>> and That Awful Calendar Woman. Calendar is a good counter to Giles'
>> old-fashioned ways, a reminder that the occult weirdos have changed
>> with the times and joined the information superhighway the same as
>> everyone else. The various discussions about the computer age, the
>> smell of books, fears about the death of face-to-face conversation,
>> and
>> so on transform a personality quirk into an explanation of Giles'
>> philosophy of life.
Agreed there. Their scenes together were probably the best of the episode
(aside from the very last scene). Looking back after having seen season
2, Giles and Jenny sniping at each other looks like a more adult version
of Buffy's initial reaction to Angel. However, at this point I must point
out that in well over a decade working in a library and even longer
patronizing libraries, I have never met a technophobic librarian. And
that includes some who would have started out in the profession around the
time Giles first learned how to read. (Maybe things are different among
museum curators who move halfway around the world to be with a teenage
girl?) And contra Jenny, old-fashioned paper-based libraries are not
carefully-guarded repositories that only a handful of white guys can
enter. Harrumph. But having said that, yeah, I enjoy Jenny and all of
her scenes with Giles. And Giles's last speech wrings surprising depth
out of what first seemed like the very simplistic joke of ha ha, old
British guy doesn't like computers.
Doesn't the mention of "techno-pagans" just take you back to the '90s?
Some other bits I liked: Willow getting briefly worried when Buffy plants
the idea that Malcolm might have a hairy back. The "elderly Dutch woman"
conversation. The first brief glimpse of what Willow's parents must be
like ("Dad, did you forget your keys again?"). "That's not where I dangle
it." And above all, the great final scene, one of my favorites of the
whole season.
Some other bits I disliked: All the computer gibberish, of course. (I
wonder how much was due to the writers' own ignorance, and how much to
their assuming the audience is ignorant?) Dave driving a car and Buffy
trailing him on foot -- I mean, come on. Fritz chanting "I'm jacked in,
I'm jacked in" -- one of my least favorite scenes EVAR. And pretty much
everything else with Fritz in it. The cliches of our heroes getting
locked into a room (well, corridor) into which the bad guys release poison
gas, and tricking the monster into punching an electrical switch box.
>> AOQ rating: Weak
There are enough redeeming moments for me to give it a Decent.
Admittedly it's kind of a guilty-pleasure Decent, but those count too.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Michael Ikeda
news:UvxMh.14$SD...@newsfe12.lga:
>
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:ett6vc$nbl$1...@aioe.org...
>>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>> Date: Jan 18 2006, 2:01 am
>>> Subject: AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>>> To: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>>>
>>>
>>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>> review threads.
>>>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>>> (or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
>
>
> For such a horrible, manipulative demon, he didn't do anything
> horrible to Willow. Yeah, he lied to her about who he really
> was, but that's about it- he didn't have her do anything she
> otherwise wouldn't have (except cut a few classes). Made me
> wonder if he actually had feelings for her, and I don't think
> the writers were intending to do that.
Probably not "feelings" in the way we'd mean the term, but I think
the writers were definitely meaning to suggest that the demon did
view Willow more favorably than most humans.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
One Bit Shy
news:1305g9a...@corp.supernews.com...
> Apteryx <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>> Date: Jan 18 2006, 2:01 am
>>> Subject: AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>>> To: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
>
> .
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>>> (or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
>>> Writers: Ashley Gable and Thomas A. Swyden
>>> Director: Stephen Posey
>
> You can divide Buffy fans between those who hate Teacher's Pet more, and
> those who hate I Robot ... You Jane more. I'm in the former camp.
> IRYJ's plot is just as silly as TP's, but no worse, and it has more
> redeeming moments than TP.
That's two camps of Buffy fans I've never considered before. It's not
exactly on the scale of those who like Angel vs. those who like Spike. But
I find it really appealing in an inside understanding of the series sense.
I mean some of us with real understanding just *know* that IRYJ is far
superior to TP. ;-o)
OBS
One Bit Shy
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>> I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about
>> the
>> difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
>> SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
>> absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
>> logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
>> gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
>> But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
>> just ridiculous - it's stupid.
Not to be too obsessive or anything, but there's less than 15 minutes of air
time that Moloch maintains whatever sway over Willow that he has. Willow
actively resists him for half the episode.
> Yeah, pretty much. Part of the problem is we don't really see what
> marvellously persuasive arguments Moloch, The Corruptor, used to corrupt
> Willow. Presumably because the writers couldn't come up with anything
> plausible enough, so they figured they were better off leaving it
> offscreen
> and just leave us to suppose that Moloch, being an expert at corruption,
> would no doubt have come up with something where they failed. Pretty
> implausible of course, because who could be better at corruption than a TV
> writer?
I think that's an odd expectation. I don't believe the idea of Moloch
depends on the quality of his words at all. As a demon, his magical power
is the ability to mesmerize people. Emphasize magical. It's not slick
words. It's a kind of spell. (In this case it appears to be a kind of
illusion where the effect collapses when you see through any part of it.)
As such, even the banal becomes infused with emotional weight. "All I want
is your love," is hardly great poetry. The technique instead seems to rely
on regular reinforcement of mutual devotion.
That's just the magical demon part. Far more important is the remark from
Giles, "Preys on impressionable minds." Moloch appears to focus on the
young, taking advantage of their raw desires not yet steeled by experience.
(As with the classic Internet predator that he's a metaphor for.) Again,
the key to this is not the cleverness of language. It's simply directing
everything at the yearnings of the victims - pointing them towards where
they already want to go. The victims do most of the work, filling in the
gaps needed to make Moloch be what they want him to be.
The driving force isn't Moloch's seduction, it's Willow's loneliness and
desire for a loving, understanding boyfriend.
I think resistance to this by viewers is largely an identification with
Willow that makes them want to believe Willow is better than that - that she
wouldn't succumb to such things. (And by extension that the viewer
wouldn't.)
But I rather like the premise myself. I think Willow was in fact primed to
be swept away by anyone giving her that kind of attention. (Remember Thomas
in the Bronze back in WTTH? How different is that really?) And I think
it's a pretty decent handling of a contemporary concern about impressionable
youth being exposed to predators online. Something that's been observed not
to depend on the kid being dumb - other than lacking experience. It's not
like there hasn't been a long tradition of girls - even smart ones - falling
for slimy weasels offering little more than, "You're special, and you make
me better."
(That last I believe is the real point of Moloch going on near the end about
Willow making him. It's not because Willow is really all that special to
him. It's just that the notion of the girl making the man can be the
ultimate seduction.)
Even so, Willow ultimately proves that she *is* able to resist. That she
*is* better than the usual victim. Interestingly it is her tie to Buffy -
her faith in Buffy - that proves more powerful than Moloch's mesmerizing
way. When Moloch speaks of Buffy as nothing but trouble, the truth shatters
the illusion. Willow knows better.
At this point something else intrudes into this story. (Layers) This is
the second time somebody has given Willow that message. Hyena-Xander told
her much the same thing. She resisted then too - expressing a faith in
Buffy that supports what happens here. Nice character continuity. But also
story continuity. Part of the point of this middle stretch of 3 episodes
starting with The Pack is to show all of them - not just Buffy - being
further pushed outside normal life, denied normal life, and beginning to
realize the real peril of it. The ending beautifully expresses this as they
bond more than ever, then ponder the significance of it with disquiet. Back
in WTTH/TH the three came together congenially and shared a thrill. Now
they come together again to share a wound.
Whatever problems there may be within this episode (which I think are
exaggerated), it remains part of a general thematic progression through the
season showing Buffy moving ever further from normal life while
simultaneously strengthening her connection to her friends. Her friends are
being drawn into her world as much as they hold her to theirs. (Angel is
the friend - not just potential lover - that offers the flip side. Angel
draws her to his darker world as she pulls him towards normalcy. But that's
just introduced S1. It'll be a bigger deal in the future.)
>> Continuity and consistency may not be Joss Whedon's strong points,
>> but I do expect a decent show to maintain some kind of standards. One
>> or two flaws or hiccups are okay. A heaping helping of quibbles is
>> not
>> okay. A partial list from "Robot":
>>
>> 1) The series' seeming desire to give every one of its main
>> characters an episode where they transform into a moron when they meet
>> someone interesting.
You can characterize it that way if you're determined to see it that way
alone. You might also see it as character vulnerabilities being exploited
by the unscrupulous - the hell side of growing up. Or as the trio bonding
over shared experience. Or that infatuation has a way of making you act
loopy and contrary to your best interests. A key part of this series is
that they don't routinely act smart. Instead they stumble through life -
often badly. Their strength is dealing with it. They cope. They forgive.
They adapt. They get strong.
> (I'm warning you now, show, if you fuck with
>> Giles next episode, I'm going to start seeing other DVDs.)
>
> Would getting tricked into a guillotine count?
Heh.
>> 2) Giving us both the long overdrawn Italian (?) opening,
2 minutes 14 seconds. (Hey, I can't let go of obsession easily.) Not
short, but I don't think all that extended either. I love the opening
scene. Beautifully lit unlike much of the season. (I seem to remember that
they were buying lights as the season progressed. Maybe picking them up on
E-Bay.) And much better at the ritualistic imagery than shown thus far with
The Master. I especially like the whole idea and depiction of Moloch being
transferred to the written words in the book.
Extending the idea to having him released by computer scan, translated into
data set free on the Internet is one of the best magical ideas of the
season. (The notion of setting data free is also one of the few
computer/Internet ideas in the episode that fit well with contemporary
thought. Too bad it had to be expressed by that idiot, Fritz.)
>> and then
>> Giles explaining the whole plot again half an hour later. We got it
>> the first time, move on.
<shrug> Didn't bother me. I rather enjoy the process of them figuring it
out. Besides, it's the mechanism for forcing Giles to deal with the modern
world and talk to Ms. Calendar.
>> 3) The fact that Sunnydale High is basically a death trap at this
>> point
>> and no one seems to care.
mmmm. Well, I'm not going to lay that one on this episode any more than any
other.
>> 4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going to
>> die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
Now this is a problem. Worse than that actually. I think I'd pick Fritz as
the all time worst Buffyverse character, whose only saving grace is not
coming back from the dead.
>> 5) People dictating IM conversations out loud, and that dumb robotic
>> voice that recites Malak's comments. And no, I don't care whether
>> those things are TV convention, thanks for asking.
It worked in War Games when it was still novel. (1983) But mostly hasn't
since. I don't think there are a lot of good alternatives, but that doesn't
make it work better. It's one of the downsides of intelligent computer
stories.
>> 6) The glacially slow pace at which our heroes figure out what's
>> going on while ambling back and forth between the same three
>> locations.
The pacing is slow and makes the story drag at times. On the other hand it
does allow for Buffy's ridiculous disguise.
>> 7) Malak's ridiculously selective control of computer systems: he can
>> sinisterly flip on computers when you walk into the room, but he
>> doesn't notice people casting the e-spells needed to contain him.
I wish they hadn't had Moloch say that everything flowed through him. It
implies more awareness and active control than he actually demonstrates.
But one can still presume that his part is passive (the Internet seems to
work the same as always) other than consciously deliberate action, and that
his powers to assimilate all the information passing through him is limited.
It seems a pretty small issue to me.
>> 8) That stupid-looking giant robot body,
Not one of the better monsters in the series, though hardly unique as less
than stellar. Better than the preying mantis I think.
>> and the fact that Malak stays
>> trapped in it for no real reason other than that someone decided the
>> show needed another action sequence.
?? The spell traps him there. He can't be released until and unless
someone "reads" him. Which presumably means somebody downloading the data
from the robot. He's put in the robot because it's the repository prepared
for that kind of data - just as the book had been prepared for his demon
form. Actually I think it's kind of neat that he now thinks of himself as
trapped in tangible form as opposed to liberated as free running data.
The action isn't very good though. Especially the hackneyed death by
electrocution. One glorious exception is Willow going after him with the
fire extinguisher. Beware of pissed off Willow. Imagine what she might do
if she had more power.
>> And that's just off the top of my head. Again, one or two of them
>> alone wouldn't necessarily sink an episode, but seeing them all so
>> close together hurts. I'm trying to decide whether IRYJ suffers more
>> from being flawed or just from being boring. Some of each, though.
There sure are flaws in the episode - reflecting, I think, the season's
general struggle to work out what it takes to make a series like this.
Fritz is far and away the worst element - dragging the show down to the
pitiful every time he's on-screen. Most everything computer geeky is weak
too, though that is also the pathway to the exchange of philosophies between
Giles and Calendar. So I think the balance is pretty favorable. Pacing is
often off. The robot kind of stinks. Enough to prevent the episode from
being genuinely good. Not near enough to make me dislike it though.
> Definitely from being flawed. There's too much going on for it to be
> boring, and as always too much great dialogue - "To read makes our
> speaking English good", "You're having an expression" and "I'll be back in
> the middle ages" (Jenny's reply is almost redundant). Plus Giles's defence
> of books at the end. The concept of a demon in the internet is pretty
> good, and, hey, new character!
New character indeed. Jenny and Giles are simply wonderful. There's also
the closing scene of the episode where the three friends consider the demons
they've all fallen for - one of the best closing scenes of the series. And
tons of great lines - a very quotable episode.
Willow: He doesn't talk like somebody who would have a hairy back.
----
Giles: Well, I-I don't dangle a corkscrew from my ear.
Ms. Calendar: That's not where I dangle it.
>> So....
>>
>> One-sentence summary: Other than Giles/Calendar, nothing to see here.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Weak
>
> Well, this is certainly a popular episode to hate, and there is very
> little to enthuse over here. But sometimes a little is enough. For me,
> there is enough fun going on through the silliness to get this up to
> Decent, and not too bad a Decent at that. It's my 88th favourite BtVS
> episode, 10th best in season 1
Decent for me too - pretty good Decent... and let's see. Yep. 10th best in
S1 too - though I don't think the two below match. (Teacher's Pet 11, The
Harvest 12)
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:1308o32...@news.supernews.com:
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:ett6vc$nbl$1...@aioe.org...
>>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>
>
>>> 4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going
>>> to die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
>
> Now this is a problem. Worse than that actually. I think I'd
> pick Fritz as the all time worst Buffyverse character, whose
> only saving grace is not coming back from the dead.
There's still the Season 8 comics...
One Bit Shy
news:oZ6dncegSOPa-Jnb...@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:1308o32...@news.supernews.com:
>
>> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:ett6vc$nbl$1...@aioe.org...
>>>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>
>>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>>
>>
>>>> 4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going
>>>> to die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
>>
>> Now this is a problem. Worse than that actually. I think I'd
>> pick Fritz as the all time worst Buffyverse character, whose
>> only saving grace is not coming back from the dead.
>
> There's still the Season 8 comics...
I don't think even Joss is that perverse.... He's not is he?... Damn, he
is. Well, I can pray he doesn't think of it.
OBS
Arnold Kim
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:1308o32...@news.supernews.com...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:ett6vc$nbl$1...@aioe.org...
>>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>
>>> but I do expect a decent show to maintain some kind of standards. One
>>> or two flaws or hiccups are okay. A heaping helping of quibbles is
>>> not
>>> okay. A partial list from "Robot":
>>>
>>> 1) The series' seeming desire to give every one of its main
>>> characters an episode where they transform into a moron when they meet
>>> someone interesting.
>
> You can characterize it that way if you're determined to see it that way
> alone. You might also see it as character vulnerabilities being exploited
> by the unscrupulous - the hell side of growing up. Or as the trio bonding
> over shared experience. Or that infatuation has a way of making you act
> loopy and contrary to your best interests. A key part of this series is
> that they don't routinely act smart. Instead they stumble through life -
> often badly. Their strength is dealing with it. They cope. They
> forgive. They adapt. They get strong.
Plus they're teenagers, who haven't figured out life yet. Acting like morons
is what you go through. Maybe you can't point out one or two episodes as
having shaped a character, but over the course of several seasons, you get
to see how their experiences change them.
Also, I'm not sure that Willow was really being a moron, anyway. As you
said above, she's just inexperienced and lonely, and Moloch knew what
buttons to push. Someone like her may be exactly the type to fall for an
online predator.
Willow's very book smart, but at this point she's not very confident or savy
around the opposite sex.
>>> 5) People dictating IM conversations out loud, and that dumb robotic
>>> voice that recites Malak's comments. And no, I don't care whether
>>> those things are TV convention, thanks for asking.
>
> It worked in War Games when it was still novel. (1983) But mostly hasn't
> since. I don't think there are a lot of good alternatives, but that
> doesn't make it work better. It's one of the downsides of intelligent
> computer stories.
"You've Got Mail" (and others, I'm sure) got over this by having a voice
over narration of each side of the chat, rather than having the characters
read it out loud.
> The action isn't very good though. Especially the hackneyed death by
> electrocution. One glorious exception is Willow going after him with the
> fire extinguisher. Beware of pissed off Willow. Imagine what she might
> do if she had more power.
Like, say, rip a guy's skin off, for instance?
>> Definitely from being flawed. There's too much going on for it to be
>> boring, and as always too much great dialogue - "To read makes our
>> speaking English good", "You're having an expression" and "I'll be back
>> in the middle ages" (Jenny's reply is almost redundant). Plus Giles's
>> defence of books at the end. The concept of a demon in the internet is
>> pretty good, and, hey, new character!
>
> New character indeed. Jenny and Giles are simply wonderful. There's also
> the closing scene of the episode where the three friends consider the
> demons they've all fallen for - one of the best closing scenes of the
> series.
Also another first- the first bit of Buffy continuity, when they refer back
to Praying Mantis Lady in "Teacher's Pet"
Arnold
Exp315
> >> 8) That stupid-looking giant robot body,
>
> Not one of the better monsters in the series, though hardly unique as less
> than stellar. Better than the preying mantis I think.
Thank goodness there were no more robots in the series! :-)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> I think that's an odd expectation. I don't believe the idea of Moloch
> depends on the quality of his words at all. As a demon, his magical power
> is the ability to mesmerize people. Emphasize magical. It's not slick
> words. It's a kind of spell. (In this case it appears to be a kind of
> illusion where the effect collapses when you see through any part of it.)
> As such, even the banal becomes infused with emotional weight. "All I want
> is your love," is hardly great poetry. The technique instead seems to rely
> on regular reinforcement of mutual devotion.
[snip]
>
> But I rather like the premise myself. I think Willow was in fact primed to
> be swept away by anyone giving her that kind of attention. (Remember Thomas
> in the Bronze back in WTTH? How different is that really?)
At the Bronze, it was one night, she was alone, and she was seizing
the moment. It's a very believable way in which someone could play on
some of the same weaknesses that Moloch does. Willow's totally
capable of a momentary lapse of reason like that, but to so
concertedly throw herself into danger like this wouldn't happen
without a supernatural influence like that in TP and IRYJ. I think
that's why these two episodes annoy me so much, because the episodes
badly want the characters compromised, to the point where they have to
use magic to make them susceptible enough. It's not an earned crisis.
> Even so, Willow ultimately proves that she *is* able to resist. That she
> *is* better than the usual victim. Interestingly it is her tie to Buffy -
> her faith in Buffy - that proves more powerful than Moloch's mesmerizing
> way. When Moloch speaks of Buffy as nothing but trouble, the truth shatters
> the illusion. Willow knows better.
I don't get why people seem to treat the show as if Willow quickly
puts things together and realizes that there's a problem. Moloch is
successful at turning her against her friends... she doesn't just get
uncomfortable and change the subject, but she starts lashing out at
them being reasonable. Later she gets unnerved at the reference to
Buffy, but doesn't do anything about it; we next see her coming home
having presumably not told anyone or anything. Best-case scenario
would be that she hoped that he didn't exist outside of the computer,
so to speak, so that she could just stop responding to his messages
for awhile and that would give her a day or two to herself to work
things out. But I'd hardly say she "actively resists" Moloch until
getting kidnapped tips her off that she might want to resist.
> At this point something else intrudes into this story. (Layers) This is
> the second time somebody has given Willow that message. Hyena-Xander told
> her much the same thing. She resisted then too - expressing a faith in
> Buffy that supports what happens here. Nice character continuity. But also
> story continuity. Part of the point of this middle stretch of 3 episodes
> starting with The Pack is to show all of them - not just Buffy - being
> further pushed outside normal life, denied normal life, and beginning to
> realize the real peril of it. The ending beautifully expresses this as they
> bond more than ever, then ponder the significance of it with disquiet. Back
> in WTTH/TH the three came together congenially and shared a thrill. Now
> they come together again to share a wound.
Damn, you're good.
-AOQ
~"Teacher's Pet" is worse, for the record, though they both suck~
One Bit Shy
news:1174751615.3...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 23, 6:18 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> But I rather like the premise myself. I think Willow was in fact primed
>> to
>> be swept away by anyone giving her that kind of attention. (Remember
>> Thomas
>> in the Bronze back in WTTH? How different is that really?)
>
> At the Bronze, it was one night, she was alone, and she was seizing
> the moment. It's a very believable way in which someone could play on
> some of the same weaknesses that Moloch does. Willow's totally
> capable of a momentary lapse of reason like that, but to so
> concertedly throw herself into danger like this wouldn't happen
> without a supernatural influence like that in TP and IRYJ. I think
> that's why these two episodes annoy me so much, because the episodes
> badly want the characters compromised, to the point where they have to
> use magic to make them susceptible enough. It's not an earned crisis.
I get what you're saying - really. It may have taken 12 seasons worth of
reviews, but I'm beginning to follow you. ;-)
It's just that to me, your complaint describes the concept of the show at
this point. Seed the story with a character issue and then exaggerate it
with metaphoric magic. The monster is usually external, but there are
dozens of times in the series that the character is him or herself
transformed into something not truly themselves. Based on them, but taken
to an extreme. (I don't think Willow's behavior is actually all that
extreme here, but that's just a different perception of how well grounded
normal Willow would be in this situation. The broader idea of a magical
influence remains.)
You tend to lean pretty heavily towards wanting the affected character to
have his/her affection speak directly and truly to their normal character
issues. (As you said about Xander in TP.) Excess is just trampling on the
characters. I'd agree that the approach works best when that's done - and
as the series progresses it will get more sophisticated in how it handles
this. In S1 it's still fairly heavy handed. But I still lean towards going
with it excess and all - enthusiasticly. I love the premise of blatant
metaphorical monsters. I don't often get to see such extreme reliance on
metaphor - even allegory. It's very bluntness speaks to a literally ancient
tradition in theater that Joss is clearly well schooled in. We're getting a
heavy dose of Greek theater in modern trappings with much better pacing and
snappier dialogue.
Character development is a very big deal in BtVS - and pretty brilliantly
handled on the whole. In time the characters will come to dominate the
stories (one might argue that Restless moves the series into a psychological
study of its characters) while the broad brush metaphor is moved further and
further into the background. Here in S1, though, it's still front and
center, just as important as the character development. The characters
themselves are still used as vehicles for that broad brush - not just for
their own sake.
I don't expect you to go the same place. That's more to explain where I'm
coming from. We're coming up on (episode 11) my first post in response to
your reviews. (Well, actually I posted to the Angel thread earlier that
day, but that was a sidelight and not directed at anything you said.) And,
well, it went over poorly. Nothing like entering a new group with a thud.
Heh. Anyway, it was speaking to my sense then that you were losing touch
with the series. A couple things in that episode and in The Puppet Show
contributed to it. But it was really this episode and what I speak of above
that most motivated it. (I'd been playing catch up with your reviews. 11
is when I caught up.)
Through all of your reviewing I've thought back on this one as your weakest.
Of course, now that I read it again, it doesn't come across the same way.
(I guess your "weakest" review will have to be relegated to hypothetical
concept.) Oh, I still disagree with a lot of it, but the sense of it comes
through anyway. Which ends up being a pretty normal attitude about the
episode. I noticed your comment this time about the "theory", which reminds
me anew of how many problems the episode really has. It's not like it's a
great one. I only rated it Decent myself.
Enough of that. Just something that had been nagging at me for the past
year.
>> At this point something else intrudes into this story. (Layers) This is
>> the second time somebody has given Willow that message. Hyena-Xander
>> told
>> her much the same thing. She resisted then too - expressing a faith in
>> Buffy that supports what happens here. Nice character continuity. But
>> also
>> story continuity. Part of the point of this middle stretch of 3 episodes
>> starting with The Pack is to show all of them - not just Buffy - being
>> further pushed outside normal life, denied normal life, and beginning to
>> realize the real peril of it. The ending beautifully expresses this as
>> they
>> bond more than ever, then ponder the significance of it with disquiet.
>> Back
>> in WTTH/TH the three came together congenially and shared a thrill. Now
>> they come together again to share a wound.
>
> Damn, you're good.
Now I'm feeling guilty about picking apart your review. How about I go
slaver after a giant mantis or something? But thanks. Looking at seasonal
thematic elements is my short term objective for this quick S1 run through.
Something related to note is life saving. Buffy saves Willow again this
episode, but Willow also saves Buffy. There's a lot of cross saving this
season. Willow saves Giles. Xander saves Cordy. Giles saves Buffy. Angel
saves Buffy. Buffy, Xander & Willow save Giles as a team in the next
episode. If I recall correctly, even Cordy gets a save in during Prophecy
Girl. I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of right now.
It's all part of them being stronger as a group, which comes together as a
big theme in The Puppet Show. Here we get a little pre-saging of that.
Buffy, Xander, Giles & Jenny all make contributions to solving the mystery
and rescuing Willow. Willow pays them back with some well-timed boyfriend
bashing.
> -AOQ
> ~"Teacher's Pet" is worse, for the record, though they both suck~
My bottom rated episode of the season is The Harvest. I just can't get past
the vampires lurching around like zombies.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> It's just that to me, your complaint describes the concept of the show at
> this point. Seed the story with a character issue and then exaggerate it
> with metaphoric magic. The monster is usually external, but there are
> dozens of times in the series that the character is him or herself
> transformed into something not truly themselves. Based on them, but taken
> to an extreme. (I don't think Willow's behavior is actually all that
> extreme here, but that's just a different perception of how well grounded
> normal Willow would be in this situation. The broader idea of a magical
> influence remains.)
>
> You tend to lean pretty heavily towards wanting the affected character to
> have his/her affection speak directly and truly to their normal character
> issues. (As you said about Xander in TP.) Excess is just trampling on the
> characters. I'd agree that the approach works best when that's done - and
> as the series progresses it will get more sophisticated in how it handles
> this. In S1 it's still fairly heavy handed. But I still lean towards going
> with it excess and all - enthusiasticly. I love the premise of blatant
> metaphorical monsters. I don't often get to see such extreme reliance on
> metaphor - even allegory. It's very bluntness speaks to a literally ancient
> tradition in theater that Joss is clearly well schooled in. We're getting a
> heavy dose of Greek theater in modern trappings with much better pacing and
> snappier dialogue.
Yeah, it's a fundamental difference I have with the way BTVS operates
at this point. I'm just not as enamored with metaphors when they
don't tell us a whole lot or have a purpose beyond their own sake. I
don't find it that interesting. BTVS established itself early on as a
show where the characters jump out more than the plots, which are
mostly movie homages and analogies pained with a... really broad
brush, or a paint-roller. Some of the early episodes reach such great
heights when the show moves away from that; "Angel" is full of themes
and analogies to the human experience, but they're in service of the
characters to the point where some viewers will be unconscious of them
at first, yet they register in the sense that they give the show a
feeling of authenticity. I'd posit that S1 sometimes runs into
conflict when it's trying to tell a story about a figurative monster
of adolescence and a personal story specifically about one of our
heroes at the same time, since the two goals can work at cross-
purposes and end up not satisfying on either front. I think if it'd
stayed the style of Season One throughout its run, I'd have burned out
on the show by mid-S2.
> I don't expect you to go the same place. That's more to explain where I'm
> coming from. We're coming up on (episode 11) my first post in response to
> your reviews. (Well, actually I posted to the Angel thread earlier that
> day, but that was a sidelight and not directed at anything you said.) And,
> well, it went over poorly. Nothing like entering a new group with a thud.
> Heh.
If it helps any, I remembered your post enough to pay attention to the
visuals and camera-work last time I watched OOM/S.
-AOQ
George W Harris
wrote:
:"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
:news:1308o32...@news.supernews.com:
:
:> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
:> news:ett6vc$nbl$1...@aioe.org...
:>>> From: "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
:>
:>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
:>>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
:>
:>
:>>> 4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going
:>>> to die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
:>
:> Now this is a problem. Worse than that actually. I think I'd
:> pick Fritz as the all time worst Buffyverse character, whose
:> only saving grace is not coming back from the dead.
:
:There's still the Season 8 comics...
Znlor MbzovrSevgm vf Nzl'f oblsevraq...(I haven't read the
second issue yet).
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:> But I rather like the premise myself. I think Willow was in fact primed to
:> be swept away by anyone giving her that kind of attention. (Remember Thomas
:> in the Bronze back in WTTH? How different is that really?)
:
:At the Bronze, it was one night, she was alone, and she was seizing
:the moment.
But he looked like DeBarge!
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.