AOQ Review 3-7: "Revelations"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
(or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: James A. Contner
"Revelations" begins with everyone trying to bury any issues they
have beneath the usual companionable banter. Xander's typical
playing things up after he spills the drink is smile-worthy, as is
Buffy's "going out with someone" joke to avoid the topic of
Angel. The visual of the two Slayers (seriously, have we totally
abandoned the "Chosen *One*" thing?) doing some synchronized
killing is also nice. But the episode is about how certain things
can't stay submerged forever. Before episode's end, Willow and
Xander will be guilt-ridden to the point where it's affected their
judgment, everyone will know about Angel's resurrection and Buffy's
coverup, and B and F will have surrendered to their burning longing for
each other (to beat the crap out of each other, that is, in one of the
series' best fight scenes yet).
Our favorite Season Two couple find themselves drawn together again,
and I like how Buffy realizes there's no point denying that it's
happening. Angel pretty much seems like himself again this week. It
might be worth opening the floor to opinions on whether Buffy is more
afraid of re-starting things because of personal emotional issues or
because of the fear of making him revert. This also raises the
question of whether knowing that perfect happiness will release his
inner demon could itself be a way to keep Angel from ever getting too
content again.
The others find out about Angel after Xander and Willow can't keep
their hands and mouths off each other. Have I mentioned that I'm not
fond of the device of portraying attraction as this irreversable
physical force? Somehow I think I may have. Well, I don't like it,
in case that was in some way unclear. Anyway, the regret and its
effect on them is played well, and summed up by Xander in the classic
line "why don't I alleviate my guilt by going out and getting myself
really, really killed?" This leads him to discover Angel and Buffy
kissing. This is just one example, actually, of how this whole episode
is basically a string of contrivances - people attacking the wrong
people because they only hear/see certain specific things out of
context, etc. (Any particular reason Giles didn't mention who'd
attacked him? Yes, I know they were dragging his carcass away, but if
you have enough breath for one urgent message, three more words
shouldn't be too hard.) I'd complain more, but the things set up
by the contrivances are, you know, interesting things.
So the revelation brings us to one of those BTVS arguments that can be
so great to watch. I don't usually cut-and-paste blobs of script
into these reviews, but I'd like to do it here. A few highlights
(insert '[snip]' where appropriate):
Willow: Buffy, I feel that when it comes to Angel, you can't see
straight. And that's why we're, we're all gonna help you face this.
Buffy: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
Xander: I don't need an "excuse." I think lots of dead people
actually constitutes a "reason."
Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with
jealousy.
Cordelia: Hello? Miss Not-Over-Yourself-Yet?
Giles: That's enough! Everybody. Now, Buffy knows our concerns, and
her actions, however ill-advised, can be understood.
Indeed. Everyone in this scene, whether or not one agrees with him or
her, is making sense on some level, and expressing an understandable
point of view. How I love this show sometimes. And it even feels like
a natural fit later when Faith and Xander decide to KILL Angel.
That's a pretty big deal. In this particular episode (as I've
said) it's contrivance-laden and we don't get into too many
ramifications. But the fact that the show is able to so easily and
quickly pit the good guys against each other without any
out-of-character behavior definitely bodes well for the future of the
series.
Snuck in the midst of this is a new character, Gwendolyn Post,
Faith's "new Watcher." The show does everything that would be
expected to set her up as a recurring character. Some of these scenes
are blah, like constantly being contemptuous of Giles and criticizing
his lack of discipline. (How can think that Buffy isn't doing a good
job as a Slayer is beyond me.) But despite being a bit of a bitch, she
is realistic as a Watcher (particularly in the scenes with Faith), no
obvious clues that we shouldn't take her at face value. So even
though the early Post scenes are still annoying and in a few cases
actually a bit unpleasant to watch, they're useful in that they lead
the viewer down the wrong path. And then the Watchers seem to be
warming up to each other in trite rom-com fashion - I really didn't
expect her to attack Giles just then (Mrs. Quality actually jumped).
How about *Xander* being the rational one when he and Faith find Giles
knocked out?
I really wasn't feeling Willow this week. Something in Hannigan's
delivery when she does "stammer-ey" gets annoying in large doses.
Also, not a fan of the cemetary scene with Buffy (the "opened my SAT
booklet" bit), given how obvious it was that she'd be interrupted
and then back out of her revelation. (Tangent: The "I statement"
thing doesn't work if you allow "I think that..." or "I feel
that..." Saying something like "I feel like you're being a
jerk" defeats the entire purpose of the exercise.)
Despite the heavy-sounding stuff, I think that at its heart
"Revelations" is also very much about magical objects of death, and
who'll attack whom from behind. Things move along crisply. The
nominal plot of the episode concerns our heroes' attempts to protect
and/or destroy the Glove Of +10 Lightning. Lagos is so easily
dispatched that I was wondering if Post was the real demon, but no. I
already mentioned that I liked the Buffy/Faith fight sequence, but
I'll do it again. Once Post finally gets her hands on the glove
("Faith, a word of advice: you're an idiot"), things turn
cheesier, but it's fun, energetic cheese, and the visual effects are
up to the task of keeping things looking good and explosive. And then
there's Buffy's straightforward solution to the problem - cool.
(Needs more blood, but hey, network TV and all.)
So, Cordelia and Oz have pretty much been pushed out of relevance for
the last two episodes. Is this a trend, or just a fluctuation?
I quite like the reconciliation between Buffy and Xander at the end.
"Are we cool?" To the point. And Xander actually admits to making
something of a mistake, and at least pays lip service (it's hard to
tell how deeply he believes it) to how far their trust should take
them. So our issues haven't necessarily gone away, but maybe they
can be suppressed for a little longer...
Things don't go as well with Faith, which is where we end the show.
Buffy tries to get through to her with a message other than misery and
distrust, but it doesn't seem to work out. The timing on "Uh,
Buffy?" "Yeah?" [long pause] "Nothing," is perfect. So
she seems not to be a happy member of the group at the end. On most
shows she'd be hanging out with her friends again next episode.
Here, I give her three weeks.
So...
One-sentence summary: A fun action show and a fun bit of depth.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good]
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
>(or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
>Writer: Douglas Petrie
>Director: James A. Contner
>
<SNIP FOR LENGTH, and I don't have a lot to say>
Cheese? Cheese? Hmmmmmmm!
Xander answers the question can he be any more annoying than he was in
DMP? Answer: oh yeah!
Giles is questioned? Well he does have a Slayer that's saved the world
twice, and it seems no one reads his reports. But then, he doesn't get
on the phone right away to ask about GP. The Council put him in charge
of both Slayers; shouldn't he expect to be personally notified or call
up and ask why he hasn't been?
Plus Giles gets to ask GP the stupidest question up to this point in
time in the series: "She’s your first Slayer, I take it?" Well, duh
Giles, Slayers suddenly growing on trees, everyone with a Brit accent
gets one?
And I know about Jenny and all, but Giles had seemed capable of
keeping Angel separate from Angelus (unlike Xander). A little nagging
by a "peer" is enough to rattle him and turn him kind of against
Buffy? They tried to sell it, but I did NOT buy that.
The "idiot" line was very important. GP has already gotten Faith upset
about being excluded from the Buffy meeting, and now another person
Faith trusts betrays AND belittles her, after Buffy has also broken a
bond - they are after all the only two Slayers in the world,
reasonable for Faith to expect to be more of Buffy's confidant than
she was allowed to be.
Possibly most important moment that you (the generic "you") don't
realize is important was Angel winning back trust by saving Willow's
butt.
Why doesn't Buffy invite Faith back to Casa Summers, at least for a
sleepover? And get those dirty Xander-like thoughts out of your head,
I mean for bonding and at least cheering the Faithster up?
Perhaps more later.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
>>(or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
>>Writer: Douglas Petrie
>>Director: James A. Contner
>>
<SNIP >
>
>Perhaps more later.
>
>Ken (Brooklyn)
Oh, and BTW, I can still agree to "good."
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mel
KenM47 wrote:
Do you think she would have come? I don't.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Do you think she would have come? I don't.
She'd have laughed in B's face, and it would've broken what seemed like
a chance to get through to her.
-AOQ
KenM47
I don't know. Faith was kind of wavering, looking for some human
compassion, just before Buffy left. Maybe a further peace offering
right there might have been accepted. Maybe it would just have been
important that it was made, even if declined.
It always seemed to me wrong, snobby or otherwise disrespectful, that
Buffy did not have the empathy to open up more with Faith and try to
bring Faith into her family, even after referring to her as "my
bestest new little sister" in FH&T. It was a Buffy character failing
that did not seem right to me, not the girl who was willing to give up
popularity to hang with geek loser Willow and plain old loser Xander.
Buffy should have been big enough to share more.
It was one of the things that strained my willing suspension of
disbelief - strained it, but did not break it.
KenM47
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> abandoned the "Chosen *One*" thing?) doing some synchronized
all indications are this is the first time a slayer has been revived after dying
thats screws up the magics and you can expect it to take a while to settle out
> context, etc. (Any particular reason Giles didn't mention who'd
> attacked him? Yes, I know they were dragging his carcass away, but if
did he know? he got whacked from behind
> point of view. How I love this show sometimes. And it even feels like
> a natural fit later when Faith and Xander decide to KILL Angel.
xander gets a bit full of himself
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
KenM47
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Angel. The visual of the two Slayers (seriously, have we totally
>> abandoned the "Chosen *One*" thing?) doing some synchronized
>
>all indications are this is the first time a slayer has been revived after dying
>thats screws up the magics and you can expect it to take a while to settle out
>
>> context, etc. (Any particular reason Giles didn't mention who'd
>> attacked him? Yes, I know they were dragging his carcass away, but if
>
>did he know? he got whacked from behind
He turns and sees her before the second blow. Not clear if at that
point he was capable of knowing what he was seeing.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
> >
> >
> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
> >(or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
> >Writer: Douglas Petrie
> >Director: James A. Contner
> >
> <SNIP FOR LENGTH, and I don't have a lot to say>
>
> Cheese? Cheese? Hmmmmmmm!
>
> Xander answers the question can he be any more annoying than he was in
> DMP? Answer: oh yeah!
>
> Giles is questioned? Well he does have a Slayer that's saved the world
> twice, and it seems no one reads his reports. But then, he doesn't get
> on the phone right away to ask about GP. The Council put him in charge
> of both Slayers; shouldn't he expect to be personally notified or call
> up and ask why he hasn't been?
As we've seen in the past, CoW communications procedures suck. I doubt
if they've updated them since the 19th century, when actually trying to
send tactical info to a watcher in the field would have been pretty
pointless. By the time it got to him, he'd probably be dead.
> Plus Giles gets to ask GP the stupidest question up to this point in
> time in the series: "She’s your first Slayer, I take it?" Well, duh
> Giles, Slayers suddenly growing on trees, everyone with a Brit accent
> gets one?
Giles was mostly being sarcastic there, pointing out that Faith *was*
Post's first Slayer, and he was the one with the experience. Of course
it's possible that the Council could have sent someone who had previous
Slayer experience. Maybe whoever it was who was Watcher for the Slayer
before Buffy.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
kenm47
If ASH was going for sarcasm, then it was his worst line reading to
date, IMO of course.
Kendra's Watcher would have made some sense. Giles should have been on
the phone asking what's up.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Apteryx
news:1142184655.1...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
> (or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> attacked him? Yes, I know they were dragging his carcass away, but if
> you have enough breath for one urgent message, three more words
> shouldn't be too hard.) I'd complain more, but the things set up
> by the contrivances are, you know, interesting things.
Irritating. It might be said that Giles is concussed, and in the limited
time he has to speak, he is unable to prioritise correctly the most
important info to give. But irritating.
>
> Willow: Buffy, I feel that when it comes to Angel, you can't see
> straight. And that's why we're, we're all gonna help you face this.
> Buffy: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
> Xander: I don't need an "excuse." I think lots of dead people
> actually constitutes a "reason."
> Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with
> jealousy.
> Cordelia: Hello? Miss Not-Over-Yourself-Yet?
> Giles: That's enough! Everybody. Now, Buffy knows our concerns, and
> her actions, however ill-advised, can be understood.
>
> Indeed. Everyone in this scene, whether or not one agrees with him or
> her, is making sense on some level, and expressing an understandable
> point of view.
Not so much. It is understandable that the gang is worried that Buffy didn't
tell them Angel was back (even more so if they knew how long she had been
hiding that, which of course they don't - as far as they know, Angel might
have come back that night). But back in Becoming II, the gang (maybe Xander
aside) was hoping Willow's spell would restore Angel's soul. What did they
think would happen then? Angel would save the world by stopping the
restoration of Acathla, see off or kill Spike and Drusilla, and then what?
That Buffy would kill him for everything he did while his soul was mislaid?
I feel that they have forgotten what must back then have been hopes of
reconciliation between Angel and the good guys (again, Xander aside)
.
> How I love this show sometimes. And it even feels like
> a natural fit later when Faith and Xander decide to KILL Angel.
Not at all. I think any sensible person would have at least got Giles on
side with such a drastic course of action. I feel Xander is being a far
bigger jerk than he ever was before, and Faith (who after all never met
Angel) comes off as psycho.
> Snuck in the midst of this is a new character, Gwendolyn Post,
> Faith's "new Watcher." The show does everything that would be
> expected to set her up as a recurring character. Some of these scenes
> are blah, like constantly being contemptuous of Giles and criticizing
> his lack of discipline. (How can think that Buffy isn't doing a good
> job as a Slayer is beyond me.) But despite being a bit of a bitch, she
> is realistic as a Watcher (particularly in the scenes with Faith), no
> obvious clues that we shouldn't take her at face value. So even
> though the early Post scenes are still annoying and in a few cases
> actually a bit unpleasant to watch, they're useful in that they lead
> the viewer down the wrong path. And then the Watchers seem to be
> warming up to each other in trite rom-com fashion - I really didn't
> expect her to attack Giles just then (Mrs. Quality actually jumped).
I am usually an easy mark for plot twists (even after 15 or 20 times of
watching Psycho, I still get involved in Marion Crane's dash with the cash,
and whether or not she is going to take it back), but I somehow spotted
right from the start that Post was Up to No Good of some kind or other.
Being English in an American production is usually a good sign, even though
in this one we have come to accept that Giles is OK. Her put downs of Giles
certainly showed she was pretty nasty, even if she might still have been
good-aligned, but I also felt they were calculated to put Giles off thinking
clearly.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Yeah, I think this one is Good, despite some issues with it. Overall, I feel
its the 64th best BtVS episode, 15th best in Season 3
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:7vn812da9253dfv0h...@4ax.com...
>
> Giles is questioned? Well he does have a Slayer that's saved the world
> twice, and it seems no one reads his reports. But then, he doesn't get
> on the phone right away to ask about GP. The Council put him in charge
> of both Slayers; shouldn't he expect to be personally notified or call
> up and ask why he hasn't been?
It seemed to me that Post's put-down's of him were carefully designed to
humiliate and anger him to put him off thinking clearly, perhaps even to
make him too embarrassed to phone to check. For someone with his background,
Giles is fairly easily embarrassed.
>
> And I know about Jenny and all, but Giles had seemed capable of
> keeping Angel separate from Angelus (unlike Xander). A little nagging
> by a "peer" is enough to rattle him and turn him kind of against
> Buffy? They tried to sell it, but I did NOT buy that.
>
Giles seemed to me the only one whose reaction was reasonable. He reserves
his harshest comments for their private conversation rather than tackling
Buffy with it in public, but clearly he had issues with Angel and clearly
she should have told him he was back. That's all he said.
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> I feel that they have forgotten what must back then have been hopes of
> reconciliation between Angel and the good guys (again, Xander aside)
angel had been to hell and back
or something that looked like angel came back
even buffy intended to keep him chained him up until he was verbal
George W Harris
:> Why doesn't Buffy invite Faith back to Casa Summers, at least for a
:> sleepover? And get those dirty Xander-like thoughts out of your head,
:> I mean for bonding and at least cheering the Faithster up?
:
:
:Do you think she would have come? I don't.
Must...resist....lesbian....humor...
:
:
:Mel
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
> (or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
Although it's hard to admit, I have to agree with you on that one.
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
Big Yeah!!!! I'm not 100% sure, but I believe this was his writing
debut for the show.
> "Revelations" begins with everyone trying to bury any issues they
> have beneath the usual companionable banter. Xander's typical
> playing things up after he spills the drink is smile-worthy, as is
> Buffy's "going out with someone" joke to avoid the topic of
> Angel.
The W/X relationship and cover up at this point, had me wondering
exactly where they were going to take it. At this point, it certainly
hadn't been anything like what I thought it was going to be.
The visual of the two Slayers (seriously, have we totally
> abandoned the "Chosen *One*" thing?) doing some synchronized
> killing is also nice.
I love the camera angle. If you look closely, there is really only one
POV that is taken here. It becomes apparent later in the very short
match, but Giles seems to have an eye on both slayers.
and B and F will have surrendered to their burning longing for
> each other (to beat the crap out of each other, that is, in one of the
> series' best fight scenes yet).
Again, not much into the cat fight scenario, but the fight was
incredible.
> Our favorite Season Two couple find themselves drawn together again,
> and I like how Buffy realizes there's no point denying that it's
> happening. Angel pretty much seems like himself again this week. It
> might be worth opening the floor to opinions on whether Buffy is more
> afraid of re-starting things because of personal emotional issues or
> because of the fear of making him revert. This also raises the
> question of whether knowing that perfect happiness will release his
> inner demon could itself be a way to keep Angel from ever getting too
> content again.
>
> The others find out about Angel after Xander and Willow can't keep
> their hands and mouths off each other. Have I mentioned that I'm not
> fond of the device of portraying attraction as this irreversable
> physical force? Somehow I think I may have. Well, I don't like it,
> in case that was in some way unclear. Anyway, the regret and its
> effect on them is played well, and summed up by Xander in the classic
> line "why don't I alleviate my guilt by going out and getting myself
> really, really killed?"
On first viewing, there seemed to be a lot of irreversible physical
force going on. I actually didn't put too much thought into it. Just
a nice, and inevitable, plot twist. But with B/A as well as X/W
submitting to the force, it's really interesting that when the secret
is out, W and X take on that force is very different.
This leads him to discover Angel and Buffy
> kissing. This is just one example, actually, of how this whole episode
> is basically a string of contrivances - people attacking the wrong
> people because they only hear/see certain specific things out of
> context, etc.
Given X "passion" for A, knowing he would be the one to discover the
secret was predestined.
(Any particular reason Giles didn't mention who'd
> attacked him? Yes, I know they were dragging his carcass away, but if
> you have enough breath for one urgent message, three more words
> shouldn't be too hard.) I'd complain more, but the things set up
> by the contrivances are, you know, interesting things.
There are powers at work that do not wish for you to see certain
things. Yet.
> So the revelation brings us to one of those BTVS arguments that can be
> so great to watch. I don't usually cut-and-paste blobs of script
> into these reviews, but I'd like to do it here. A few highlights
> (insert '[snip]' where appropriate):
>
> Willow: Buffy, I feel that when it comes to Angel, you can't see
> straight. And that's why we're, we're all gonna help you face this.
> Buffy: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
> Xander: I don't need an "excuse." I think lots of dead people
> actually constitutes a "reason."
> Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with
> jealousy.
> Cordelia: Hello? Miss Not-Over-Yourself-Yet?
> Giles: That's enough! Everybody. Now, Buffy knows our concerns, and
> her actions, however ill-advised, can be understood.
>
> Indeed. Everyone in this scene, whether or not one agrees with him or
> her, is making sense on some level, and expressing an understandable
> point of view. How I love this show sometimes. And it even feels like
> a natural fit later when Faith and Xander decide to KILL Angel.
> That's a pretty big deal. In this particular episode (as I've
> said) it's contrivance-laden and we don't get into too many
> ramifications. But the fact that the show is able to so easily and
> quickly pit the good guys against each other without any
> out-of-character behavior definitely bodes well for the future of the
> series.
At the risk of being misunderstood, Xander Getting his Peacock on
again. As beautiful and disturbing at that scene was, again I have to
praise ASH "You have no
respect for me, or the job I perform." Hell, even I felt guilty.
> Snuck in the midst of this is a new character, Gwendolyn Post,
> Faith's "new Watcher." The show does everything that would be
> expected to set her up as a recurring character. Some of these scenes
> are blah, like constantly being contemptuous of Giles and criticizing
> his lack of discipline. (How can think that Buffy isn't doing a good
> job as a Slayer is beyond me.) But despite being a bit of a bitch, she
> is realistic as a Watcher (particularly in the scenes with Faith), no
> obvious clues that we shouldn't take her at face value. So even
> though the early Post scenes are still annoying and in a few cases
> actually a bit unpleasant to watch, they're useful in that they lead
> the viewer down the wrong path. And then the Watchers seem to be
> warming up to each other in trite rom-com fashion - I really didn't
> expect her to attack Giles just then (Mrs. Quality actually jumped).
I would add a comment her but your first impression seem to sum up mine
to the letter.
> How about *Xander* being the rational one when he and Faith find Giles
> knocked out?
>
> I really wasn't feeling Willow this week. Something in Hannigan's
> delivery when she does "stammer-ey" gets annoying in large doses.
> Also, not a fan of the cemetary scene with Buffy (the "opened my SAT
> booklet" bit), given how obvious it was that she'd be interrupted
> and then back out of her revelation. (Tangent: The "I statement"
> thing doesn't work if you allow "I think that..." or "I feel
> that..." Saying something like "I feel like you're being a
> jerk" defeats the entire purpose of the exercise.)
>
> Despite the heavy-sounding stuff, I think that at its heart
> "Revelations" is also very much about magical objects of death, and
> who'll attack whom from behind. Things move along crisply. The
> nominal plot of the episode concerns our heroes' attempts to protect
> and/or destroy the Glove Of +10 Lightning. Lagos is so easily
> dispatched that I was wondering if Post was the real demon, but no. I
> already mentioned that I liked the Buffy/Faith fight sequence, but
> I'll do it again. Once Post finally gets her hands on the glove
> ("Faith, a word of advice: you're an idiot"), things turn
> cheesier, but it's fun, energetic cheese, and the visual effects are
> up to the task of keeping things looking good and explosive. And then
> there's Buffy's straightforward solution to the problem - cool.
> (Needs more blood, but hey, network TV and all.)
At this point, my prediction about the second slayer were dead on.
Kendra 2 comes to town, Slayer/Vampire in love makes no sense, Slayer
and Slayer fight. New slayer gets in taxi and goes home. OK, so maybe
not dead on. The fight was one of the very first times in my life that
I actually sat there cheering the punches. Almost seamless integration
of Actor-Stunt Double. Damn that was good!
> I quite like the reconciliation between Buffy and Xander at the end.
> "Are we cool?" To the point. And Xander actually admits to making
> something of a mistake, and at least pays lip service (it's hard to
> tell how deeply he believes it) to how far their trust should take
> them. So our issues haven't necessarily gone away, but maybe they
> can be suppressed for a little longer...
>
> Things don't go as well with Faith, which is where we end the show.
> Buffy tries to get through to her with a message other than misery and
> distrust, but it doesn't seem to work out. The timing on "Uh,
> Buffy?" "Yeah?" [long pause] "Nothing," is perfect. So
> she seems not to be a happy member of the group at the end. On most
> shows she'd be hanging out with her friends again next episode.
> Here, I give her three weeks.
The final shot of Kendra 2 sitting on her bed was moving. For the
first time since FH&T, I actually saw her.
Also, it was the first time that I recognized being a Watcher as a Job.
Up until Post's arrival, my mind equated being a Watcher a duty and
nothing more. The real world questioning Giles performing his "duties"
took on a whole new meaning. Some one's watching Giles? Somehow it
never occurred to me until this point. And the Watcher's response to
being watched.......
Great ASH moment when Xander interrupts he and Post. "We have a big
problem. It's Buffy." The guy can switch on a dime.
Apteryx
news:mair_fheal-CF088...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> That Buffy would kill him for everything he did while his soul was
>> mislaid?
>> I feel that they have forgotten what must back then have been hopes of
>> reconciliation between Angel and the good guys (again, Xander aside)
>
> angel had been to hell and back
> or something that looked like angel came back
>
> even buffy intended to keep him chained him up until he was verbal
But they don't know that. As with the length of time Buffy had been hiding
Angel, the gang's reaction would be more reasonable if a DVD of episodes 3-6
had fallen through a wormhole into Sunnydale and they'd been watching it.
--
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
> Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
> (or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
There may be a future for you in the exciting world of email spam -er-
marketing. (Hey, that would grab my attention a lot faster than what
normally shows up in the inbox.)
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> "Revelations" begins with everyone trying to bury any issues they
> have beneath the usual companionable banter. Xander's typical
> playing things up after he spills the drink is smile-worthy, as is
> Buffy's "going out with someone" joke to avoid the topic of
> Angel. The visual of the two Slayers (seriously, have we totally
> abandoned the "Chosen *One*" thing?) doing some synchronized
> killing is also nice.
They seem to be positively bonding then don't they?
> But the episode is about how certain things
> can't stay submerged forever.
I would suggest that that's what happened, but trust is what it was about.
> Before episode's end, Willow and
> Xander will be guilt-ridden to the point where it's affected their
> judgment, everyone will know about Angel's resurrection and Buffy's
> coverup, and B and F will have surrendered to their burning longing for
> each other (to beat the crap out of each other, that is, in one of the
> series' best fight scenes yet).
Buffy makes a leaping punch move that thrills me every time. That's one of
my favorite fight scenes in the series.
> Our favorite Season Two couple find themselves drawn together again,
> and I like how Buffy realizes there's no point denying that it's
> happening. Angel pretty much seems like himself again this week.
As in barely talking? Yeah, he's getting his old broody self running again.
> It
> might be worth opening the floor to opinions on whether Buffy is more
> afraid of re-starting things because of personal emotional issues or
> because of the fear of making him revert.
I think they are so intertwined that it's sufficient to know that she fears
her own emotional breakdown as well as Angel's reversion; that she fears
what others will think of her as well as what might happen to them; without
working overtime figuring out which is more important. Those and other
elements are one big roiling turmoil to Buffy.
> This also raises the
> question of whether knowing that perfect happiness will release his
> inner demon could itself be a way to keep Angel from ever getting too
> content again.
Absolutely. Which raises another question. Having a soul doesn't
automatically make one good. It's understandable that remembering his past
victims screams torment him. But why wouldn't he look at the escape clause
as just that - an escape from the torment - and seek happiness as a quest?
Is that evidence in itself that he's genuinely good? Or maybe it's his
special feeling for Buffy that restrains him from that path. (Remembering
from B1 that seeing Buffy is what convinced him to try the path of helping.)
Another side question is why does perfect happiness have to be linked to
sex? At this point with B/A that association would be unavoidable mentally
whether it's true or not. But it does make one wonder if the peril is
greater than that. Could you imagine them somehow coming to terms with a
platonic love and then one day, sitting on a couch in front of fire, sipping
hot cider and chatting about friends and good times, when Angel slips into a
state of contented peace, and the next thing you know he's tearing Buffy's
throat open.
Is good possible in this relationship?
> The others find out about Angel after Xander and Willow can't keep
> their hands and mouths off each other.
I've enjoyed all of their moments together since the Fluke.
> Have I mentioned that I'm not
> fond of the device of portraying attraction as this irreversable
> physical force? Somehow I think I may have. Well, I don't like it,
> in case that was in some way unclear.
Well, then set your mind at ease. Remember, they've had a lifetime of
genuine friendship. They already hang together because they want to. The
physical part is what's new. Add some teenage hormones to the mix and
indulging in it is irresistable for the moment. It seems pretty ordinary
behavior to me for two 17/18 year olds that just kissed for the first time
and liked it.
> Anyway, the regret and its
> effect on them is played well, and summed up by Xander in the classic
> line "why don't I alleviate my guilt by going out and getting myself
> really, really killed?" This leads him to discover Angel and Buffy
> kissing. This is just one example, actually, of how this whole episode
> is basically a string of contrivances - people attacking the wrong
> people because they only hear/see certain specific things out of
> context, etc. (Any particular reason Giles didn't mention who'd
> attacked him? Yes, I know they were dragging his carcass away, but if
> you have enough breath for one urgent message, three more words
> shouldn't be too hard.) I'd complain more, but the things set up
> by the contrivances are, you know, interesting things.
That's positively baffling to me. In a sense everything is contrived
because it's a scripted TV show. But the question is whether the
"contrivances" arise naturally from the established situation. I think they
not only do that, but that's the entire point.
The misunderstandings aren't merely flukey chances coming together, they are
primarily the product of violated trust. The biggest one being Buffy's
secret. Hell, even Gwendolyn Post makes a critical error based on that
misunderstanding. You've already noted Xander and Willow's decline in
judgment resulting from their little secret. And Post's deceptions send
everybody the wrong direction, most especially Faith. Run through the same
set of circumstances and imagine how differently they would have played out
had Buffy been honest from the start. There's a bit of a morality play
going on here about how important trust is and how its violation will
inevitably catch up with you.
The particular incidents are the chance of the moment that made everything
unravel. (It was starting to unravel last episode when Giles, Joyce and
Willow caught buffy lying.) If it hadn't been then, it would have been
something else later, because it's natural in life to make decisions with
limited direct knowledge based on how much trust you have.
We've been building to this moment pretty much all season. One might say
now that the real purpose of DMP was to set this up.
So, if it's contrived, it's contrived in the sense of BTVS constructing a
theme, the details of which have been put in place over the course of 7
episodes.
> So the revelation brings us to one of those BTVS arguments that can be
> so great to watch. I don't usually cut-and-paste blobs of script
> into these reviews, but I'd like to do it here. A few highlights
> (insert '[snip]' where appropriate):
>
> Willow: Buffy, I feel that when it comes to Angel, you can't see
> straight. And that's why we're, we're all gonna help you face this.
> Buffy: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
> Xander: I don't need an "excuse." I think lots of dead people
> actually constitutes a "reason."
> Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with
> jealousy.
> Cordelia: Hello? Miss Not-Over-Yourself-Yet?
> Giles: That's enough! Everybody. Now, Buffy knows our concerns, and
> her actions, however ill-advised, can be understood.
You didn't mention the follow-up with Giles privately, where Giles finally
reaches more or less the same place the others were at in DMP. For him,
Buffy physically running away hadn't been a sin. The aspects of Buffy's
burden that he understood better than anyone else allowed him to forgive
that - just as he had back in Innocence. She had his respect. But here it
is the perceived lack of respect returned that sends him over the edge. For
some of the same reasons we hashed to death in DMP, his view isn't entirely
correct and somewhat self centered, but again, that's largely due to the
gulf placed between them by Buffy's deception.
One thing that's curious about this, though, is that in spite of the
humiliating bashing Buffy took in the library, she comes out of it
surprisingly upbeat. Just as she's been generally upbeat since her romp
with Cordelia. What's up with that do you suppose?
> Indeed. Everyone in this scene, whether or not one agrees with him or
> her, is making sense on some level, and expressing an understandable
> point of view. How I love this show sometimes. And it even feels like
> a natural fit later when Faith and Xander decide to KILL Angel.
> That's a pretty big deal.
A real low point emotionally for Xander. His anger is out of control. And
not just at Buffy. What Faith suggests is what he wanted Giles and Willow
and company to go for back at the libarary.
But the flip side is a big deal too. Post had just insinuated to Faith that
Giles wasn't playing straight with her. (Right after Faith attempted to
defend Giles as ok.) Faith came there looking for bear because she thought
their little clique was freezing her out of the glove quest. Instead, she
got hit with bombshells that undercut all she thought she understood.
Faith is still new around here and doesn't really understand all the
undercurrents, and they probably seem silly to her anyway. She certainly
doesn't get any good reason for keeping Angel secret, nor that that secret
was mainly aimed at the others, not her. She just knows that she's a slayer
working with and kind of bonding with the other slayer - sharing not just
time and space, but a calling. She's been trying, in her brassy way, to
open up to her, and now she finds in return that Buffy's been holding out on
her big time. Another betrayed trust. And by Xander's limited description,
Giles is going along (and obviously doing stuff behind her back just like
Post said) and actually giving that beast an object of great power.
Shattered trust. And Post must be right.
> In this particular episode (as I've
> said) it's contrivance-laden and we don't get into too many
> ramifications. But the fact that the show is able to so easily and
> quickly pit the good guys against each other without any
> out-of-character behavior definitely bodes well for the future of the
> series.
>
> Snuck in the midst of this is a new character, Gwendolyn Post,
> Faith's "new Watcher." The show does everything that would be
> expected to set her up as a recurring character. Some of these scenes
> are blah, like constantly being contemptuous of Giles and criticizing
> his lack of discipline. (How can think that Buffy isn't doing a good
> job as a Slayer is beyond me.)
It's obviously horseshit, but entirely appropriate for what she's pretending
to be. She's an old school trained watcher, and on the face of it, that
introduction was intended for the benefit of Faith. She's the task master,
and Faith can expect no coddling from her. And she's in charge. This will
be expanded upon in the motel, but here it's part of the announcement of who
she is.
Second level is that it's part of her deception, and aimed at Giles. Giles
will immediately recognize the style, which indirectly establishes Post's
bonafides. It also throws Giles off stride and can continue to be pushed to
keep him on the defensive and unaware of her true intent.
> But despite being a bit of a bitch, she
> is realistic as a Watcher (particularly in the scenes with Faith), no
> obvious clues that we shouldn't take her at face value. So even
> though the early Post scenes are still annoying and in a few cases
> actually a bit unpleasant to watch, they're useful in that they lead
> the viewer down the wrong path.
And Giles. Again, that's why she acts like that.
> And then the Watchers seem to be
> warming up to each other in trite rom-com fashion - I really didn't
> expect her to attack Giles just then (Mrs. Quality actually jumped).
She's good. (It is a shocking moment, isn't it. Nothing like a good
reversal.) At this point I was actually getting kind of impressed with the
Council. Of course they screwed up with her, but she evidences a formidable
set of capabilities and knowledge. They train well.
> How about *Xander* being the rational one when he and Faith find Giles
> knocked out?
I suppose, but this is one of the worst moments you've seen for Xander.
This is when his own house of cards starts tumbling down. When he sees
Giles and realizes that it's not Angel and that something he doesn't know is
at work, it's terror that's setting in on him. Now he realizes he may have
been wrong and begins to wonder what horrible thing he may have set in
motion.
The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
> I really wasn't feeling Willow this week. Something in Hannigan's
> delivery when she does "stammer-ey" gets annoying in large doses.
It's her way. Actually it's everybody's way - a characteristic of the
show's style. She just does it in a particularly Willowy way.
> Also, not a fan of the cemetary scene with Buffy (the "opened my SAT
> booklet" bit), given how obvious it was that she'd be interrupted
> and then back out of her revelation.
Yeah, I suppose it was telegraphed, but I really enjoyed the ride.
> (Tangent: The "I statement"
> thing doesn't work if you allow "I think that..." or "I feel
> that..." Saying something like "I feel like you're being a
> jerk" defeats the entire purpose of the exercise.)
Um, I don't think so. It still transform the thought into an expression of
opinion or explanation of feeling. You're a jerk is a statement of fact -
like the world is round. I feel like you're being a jerk says that's how
your behavior comes across to me. It gives room for perceptual differences.
You're a jerk is also a straight insult aimed at the jerk. I feel like
you're being a jerk reverses the aim, implying that I'm affected by your
behavior. Even though it's not terribly good at explaining why, it does
suggest a reason for being unhappy rather than just an attack. As strange
as it is, Cordy's remark actually works better than bluntly saying Angel
kills people. "I feel worried about me," is of course made for Cordy, but
it ultimately expresses a sentiment worthy of Buffy's understanding.
> Despite the heavy-sounding stuff, I think that at its heart
> "Revelations" is also very much about magical objects of death, and
> who'll attack whom from behind. Things move along crisply. The
> nominal plot of the episode concerns our heroes' attempts to protect
> and/or destroy the Glove Of +10 Lightning.
LOL! First time I've heard that comparison. Pretty good.
> Lagos is so easily
> dispatched that I was wondering if Post was the real demon, but no. I
> already mentioned that I liked the Buffy/Faith fight sequence, but
> I'll do it again. Once Post finally gets her hands on the glove
> ("Faith, a word of advice: you're an idiot"), things turn
> cheesier, but it's fun, energetic cheese, and the visual effects are
> up to the task of keeping things looking good and explosive. And then
> there's Buffy's straightforward solution to the problem - cool.
> (Needs more blood, but hey, network TV and all.)
There are several shots framed really nicely in that sequence. It's a well
produced episode.
There's also one more important element. Angel saving Willow helps his
standing a lot.
> So, Cordelia and Oz have pretty much been pushed out of relevance for
> the last two episodes. Is this a trend, or just a fluctuation?
Oz brought up kissing Angel in the intervention. The moment always strikes
me because he's being about as harsh as he gets. Well, almost.
They're in a few scenes, but supporting roles. The intervention and W/X
were more the point.
> I quite like the reconciliation between Buffy and Xander at the end.
> "Are we cool?" To the point. And Xander actually admits to making
> something of a mistake, and at least pays lip service (it's hard to
> tell how deeply he believes it) to how far their trust should take
> them. So our issues haven't necessarily gone away, but maybe they
> can be suppressed for a little longer...
OZ: Sounds like a missed a lot of fun.
Xander: Then we're telling it wrong.
Notable is that wasn't delivered in humor. He's a bit testy about it.
Willow: What do you think Buffy and Angel are going to do?
Xander: Boy, do I don't know.
Not, I don't care. Not, I don't want to know. Not, nothing good I'm sure.
Not really anything loaded with anti-Angel sentiment..
An emphatic I don't know.
Xander eventually almost apologizes to Buffy, and then delivers the most
important line, "But I trust you."
Trust. Whether he's really there remains in doubt, of course. But there's
one more curious subtext to this. For quite a while we've hammered at
Buffy's betrayal of trust by keeping Angel secret - how many problems would
have been solved by being up front about him to begin with. But we, the
audience, know that would be terribly hard for Buffy and that her fears
about that weren't entirely wihout justification.
And here, at the end of this particular sequence, we see Xander starting to
admit that he should have trusted Buffy anyway. That he should have trusted
that Buffy knew what she was doing and that her deception was for good
reason. We don't see it clearly here, but Giles may be coming to the same
place. Willow is already there by a different path because she's consumed
with her own deception.
So even with this morality play, we're left with ambiguity. Or maybe it's
that trust must rely on faith. Perhaps earning trust isn't the greater
issue. Having the faith to trust is. (A message that also might point back
to DMP.)
> Things don't go as well with Faith, which is where we end the show.
> Buffy tries to get through to her with a message other than misery and
> distrust, but it doesn't seem to work out.
When Buffy says, "You can trust me," it's heartfelt. But she doesn't know
that Gwendolyn Post had just the day before told Faith in the same room to
trust her - and Faith had. And then not only betrayed that trust, but also
humiliated her with it. Faith is all trusted out.
> The timing on "Uh,
> Buffy?" "Yeah?" [long pause] "Nothing," is perfect.
I agree.
> So
> she seems not to be a happy member of the group at the end. On most
> shows she'd be hanging out with her friends again next episode.
> Here, I give her three weeks.
We shall see.
A couple of additional Faith notes.
When Gwendolyn Post shows up and Faith greats her with stake raised (A
little jumpy isn't she? What's up with that?), Post tells her that vampires
rarely knock. But then Faith knows that a vampire *did* knock at that very
door.
Buffy: The place looks nice.
Faith: Yeah, it's real spartan.
(You really get Faith's Boston accent there.) That line really fascinates
me. In spite of what Post did to Faith, she still latched onto Post's story
of the Spartans. She really doesn't understand it all (linking "nice" to
"spartan"), but she got the idea that a real warrior lives that way. In the
end, what kind of influence do you suppose Post had on Faith?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A fun action show and a fun bit of depth.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
For me this is clearly the best made show of the season so far. The first
one I would rate excellent.
I do have a couple of issues around this point in the season though. Not
the fault of this show itself, though it doesn't really alleviate it. One
is that to me, the Angel arc is just dragging along. Two is that all this
stuff about the gang trusting Buffy and related ideas feels kind of
belabored to me. I love how it's handled in this show, and the added
connection to Faith, but everytime I watch this season I find myself
drifting somewhere around now. That may be my own peculiarity, I don't
know. But that's how it feels to me.
OBS
burt...@hotmail.com
Apteryx wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1142184655.1...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> > straight. And that's why we're, we're all gonna help you face this.
> > Buffy: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
> > Xander: I don't need an "excuse." I think lots of dead people
> > actually constitutes a "reason."
> > Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with
> > jealousy.
> > Cordelia: Hello? Miss Not-Over-Yourself-Yet?
> > Giles: That's enough! Everybody. Now, Buffy knows our concerns, and
> > her actions, however ill-advised, can be understood.
> >
> > Indeed. Everyone in this scene, whether or not one agrees with him or
> > her, is making sense on some level, and expressing an understandable
> > point of view.
>
> Not so much. It is understandable that the gang is worried that Buffy didn't
> tell them Angel was back (even more so if they knew how long she had been
> hiding that, which of course they don't - as far as they know, Angel might
> have come back that night). But back in Becoming II, the gang (maybe Xander
> aside) was hoping Willow's spell would restore Angel's soul. What did they
> think would happen then? Angel would save the world by stopping the
> restoration of Acathla, see off or kill Spike and Drusilla, and then what?
> That Buffy would kill him for everything he did while his soul was mislaid?
> I feel that they have forgotten what must back then have been hopes of
> reconciliation between Angel and the good guys (again, Xander aside).
Yes, but they probably also expected that Buffy and Angel wouldn't
engage in the same sort of behavior that lost Angel his soul in the
first place.
There's really no point in drawing a distinction between Angel and
Angelus if *Angel* has decided to make out with Buffy. It's akin to
someone who knows he becomes violently psychotic if he doesn't take his
medication deliberately throwing all his pills in the trash. When Angel
makes out with Buffy, he's basically saying that he doesn't care if he
becomes Angelus again.
Reconciliation is fine; what happened in this episode was not.
KenM47
They made out quite a bit before Buffy's 17th Birthday. I believe
Enyos says "a moment of true happiness." I used to think it was
"perfect happiness," but six of one, half dozen of the other. (If
here's a quote for "perfect," I've lost track).
In either event, there's nothing that says mere undead orgasm is
enough. I always figured it was when one's true - Princess Bride true
- love willingly surrenders her virginity in a night of passion on her
17th birthday when Angel also has no knowledge of the "escape
clause."
Since that will never happen again, and Angel will never be fully
released from his cares again, I figure they could probably have slept
together again without the "escape clause" ever kicking in - Angel
will never have "true happiness" again, just a little happiness with a
lot of worries attached.
I do understand the unwillingness to experiment with that.
Ken (Brooklyn)
hopelessly devoted
One Bit Shy wrote:
> The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
> Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
> here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
> unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
> Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
As per the other discussion, I will say your perception on This One is
very different from mine. I did see the anger without the exhaustion
or fear.
Although I am always willing to entertain the idea that I am flat out
wrong, for right now I'll remain firmly on the fence.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> Giles was mostly being sarcastic there, pointing out that Faith *was*
> Post's first Slayer, and he was the one with the experience. Of course
> it's possible that the Council could have sent someone who had previous
> Slayer experience. Maybe whoever it was who was Watcher for the Slayer
> before Buffy.
In which case Giles would still have been one up on that Watcher: "At
least I've never lost a Slayer."
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
> (or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
Heh. Somewhere around this time we got the famous "Is Faith Bi?"
thread that went on and on for years. Also, there might be some fanfic
along those lines. Not that I collect -- er, I mean, read that kind of
stuff or anything. Mmmm, Faith... oh sorry, I digressed.
> coverup, and B and F will have surrendered to their burning longing for
> each other (to beat the crap out of each other, that is, in one of the
> series' best fight scenes yet).
Eliza's stunt double was Karen Sheppard, who is about as talented and
experienced as Sophia Crawford. It was great fun watching the two of
them knock the crap out of each other. The sheer speed of the fight
was exhilarating to me the first time. Plus the whole lesbian subtext.
Oops, I digressed again.
> But the fact that the show is able to so easily and
> quickly pit the good guys against each other without any
> out-of-character behavior definitely bodes well for the future of the
> series.
Interesting perspective.
> expect her to attack Giles just then (Mrs. Quality actually jumped).
Is that a first? For a show that's nominally in the horror genre, BtVS
isn't really very "jumpy."
> How about *Xander* being the rational one when he and Faith find Giles
> knocked out?
Yeah, that's one of those signs that you're in big, big trouble. It's
like Gaius Baltar being the voice of reason.
> I really wasn't feeling Willow this week. Something in Hannigan's
> delivery when she does "stammer-ey" gets annoying in large doses.
You're not alone in thinking that. There's a self-consciousness to her
acting sometimes.
> I'll do it again. Once Post finally gets her hands on the glove
> ("Faith, a word of advice: you're an idiot"), things turn
> cheesier, but it's fun, energetic cheese, and the visual effects are
> up to the task of keeping things looking good and explosive.
I thought it was wicked cool, although I do wonder about that skylight
that suddenly appeared in the vampire's mansion.
> I quite like the reconciliation between Buffy and Xander at the end.
> "Are we cool?" To the point. And Xander actually admits to making
> something of a mistake, and at least pays lip service (it's hard to
> tell how deeply he believes it) to how far their trust should take
> them. So our issues haven't necessarily gone away, but maybe they
> can be suppressed for a little longer...
Yes. I'm sure that will work out well.
> Things don't go as well with Faith, which is where we end the show.
> Buffy tries to get through to her with a message other than misery and
> distrust, but it doesn't seem to work out. The timing on "Uh,
> Buffy?" "Yeah?" [long pause] "Nothing," is perfect. So
> she seems not to be a happy member of the group at the end. On most
> shows she'd be hanging out with her friends again next episode.
> Here, I give her three weeks.
... before she declares her love for Buffy. Oh darn, there I go again
with the digressing. I'm just a low-down, dirty... digressor.
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> > The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
> > Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
> > here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
> > horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
> > consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
> > unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
> > Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
>
> As per the other discussion, I will say your perception on This One is
> very different from mine. I did see the anger without the exhaustion
> or fear.
xander was being the same jackass that told buffy to go get im
xander can be an immature jerk
which considering he is still in high school is understandable
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
the suggestions scatered through the series
is that a watcher who loses a slayer
becomes semi-retired due to the emotional pain
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >Yes, but they probably also expected that Buffy and Angel wouldn't
> >engage in the same sort of behavior that lost Angel his soul in the
> >first place.
> >
> >There's really no point in drawing a distinction between Angel and
> >Angelus if *Angel* has decided to make out with Buffy. It's akin to
> >someone who knows he becomes violently psychotic if he doesn't take his
> >medication deliberately throwing all his pills in the trash. When Angel
> >makes out with Buffy, he's basically saying that he doesn't care if he
> >becomes Angelus again.
> >
> >Reconciliation is fine; what happened in this episode was not.
>
> They made out quite a bit before Buffy's 17th Birthday.
It's not the making out that's the problem, it's what the making out
might lead to.
> I believe
> Enyos says "a moment of true happiness." I used to think it was
> "perfect happiness," but six of one, half dozen of the other. (If
> here's a quote for "perfect," I've lost track).
>
> In either event, there's nothing that says mere undead orgasm is
> enough. I always figured it was when one's true - Princess Bride true
> - love willingly surrenders her virginity in a night of passion on her
> 17th birthday when Angel also has no knowledge of the "escape
> clause."
>
> Since that will never happen again, and Angel will never be fully
> released from his cares again, I figure they could probably have slept
> together again without the "escape clause" ever kicking in - Angel
> will never have "true happiness" again, just a little happiness with a
> lot of worries attached.
That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that
being finally released from hell after centuries of torture and being
back in the arms of the girl he loves and kissing her would be a moment
of true happiness sufficient for Angel to lose his soul. It turned out
not to be, but he and Buffy didn't know that beforehand.
> I do understand the unwillingness to experiment with that.
Exactly. Everyone knows that having sex with Buffy made Angel lose his
soul once. How many people did Angelus kill? You don't risk that many
lives when you aren't completely sure about something.
burt...@hotmail.com
> In article <1142205466.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
>
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >
> > > The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
> > > Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
> > > here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
> > > horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
> > > consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
> > > unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
> > > Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
> >
> > As per the other discussion, I will say your perception on This One is
> > very different from mine. I did see the anger without the exhaustion
> > or fear.
>
> xander was being the same jackass that told buffy to go get im
Xander did the right thing in Becoming 2. Here, he was just being a
jerk.
jil...@hotmail.com
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <dsample-D94731...@news.giganews.com>,
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> the suggestions scatered through the series
> is that a watcher who loses a slayer
> becomes semi-retired due to the emotional pain
Aside from that, the more blatantly obvious thing to me when Faith
showed up knowing who Buffy was, returned me to Kendra's arrival. I
had to conclude that the Council, after another Slayer was called,
probably decided Giles had lost his mind. "Rupert Giles has sent in
another report about Buffy Summers. The poor man." "Sir, we could
send a Council Psychologist." "Hmm. No, I don't think so. He is
clearly monitoring the situation in Sunnydale. Though he is delusional
about his Slayer, he is quite useful as he is."
"Sir? It seems that Buffy Summers is alive and well...." "We have two
Slayers? Useful. Keep Miss Summers where she is. There are a
plethora of vampires scattered across the world for Miss Kendra to
battle."
Apteryx
V fhttrfg guvf qvfphffvba zbir gb gur Fcbyvre guernq. Rira ncneg sebz orvat
noyr gb hfr npghny fcbvyref sebz NgF gurer, erirnyvat jung crbcyr jub unir
frra gur jubyr OgIF frevrf qba'g xabj sbe n snpg erirnyf jung qvqa'g unccra
va gur frevrf
--
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
news:1142205466.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I'll stick to my perception quite firmly.
Go back and look at the scene when found Giles on the floor. He doesn't
believe Angel did it. And then things start running out of control. He
tries to stop Faith, but can't, and is left with Faith's barb to get a pair.
For him not to be scared of being wrong then, and especially when confronted
by Buffy defies belief.
I also suggest comparing that confrontation with Buffy to the intervention
scene. The tone and physical posture are very different. And his strange
choice of words. Still angry - yet defensive at the same time. He hitches
just a tad when he says that Faith came to the bad conclusion.
And again, he saw Giles. Not Angel's style. (Alive for one thing.) No
bite marks. How can he possibly not fear that he was wrong.
By the end, of course, he's retreated a thousand miles. Blandly saying,
"Well, as long as she and Angel don't get pelvic, we'll be ok I guess."
I realize that many see this episode as just Xander being a jerk again.
Forgetting for a moment whether or not he has justification, that's partly
right. In a sense it's jerk at its peak. But this time it's also a huge
come down. His view of Buffy/Angel had hardened to a core belief and he
just got the rug pulled out from under it. Now he's got to wonder if that
was all a house of cards. And he's got to wonder if the failure in trust
was his all along and not hers.
I hold a certain degree of amusement over this. I didn't want to hint at
this back in DMP because of its spoiler elements, but all the complaints
then about how unfair the writing was to just beat up on Buffy - and to some
extent still now - yet here Xander carries it too far and is the direct
catalyst to serious mayhem. Don't you think he knows that? Doesn't that
also show awareness in the writing of where this was taking Xander's
character? That it was more than Buffy bashing? That it was more than
Buffy bashing back in DMP?
At this point in the series I believe they are trying hard to pay serious
attention to all of their characters.
OBS
KenM47
<SNIP>
>
>V fhttrfg guvf qvfphffvba zbir gb gur Fcbyvre guernq. Rira ncneg sebz orvat
>noyr gb hfr npghny fcbvyref sebz NgF gurer, erirnyvat jung crbcyr jub unir
>frra gur jubyr OgIF frevrf qba'g xabj sbe n snpg erirnyf jung qvqa'g unccra
>va gur frevrf
Crefbanyyl, V unir abguvat shegure gb fnl nobhg vg abj.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
>> (or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
>
<SNIP>
>
>The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
>Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
>here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
>horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
>consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
>unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
>Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
>
What an interesting interpretation. Who says Xander can't have layers?
Seriously, interesting.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
>KenM47 wrote:
>> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
<SNIP>
>
>Exactly. Everyone knows that having sex with Buffy made Angel lose his
>soul once. How many people did Angelus kill? You don't risk that many
>lives when you aren't completely sure about something.
Good point.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
Well, hell, if Cordy can have layers... ;-)
OBS
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > I'll do it again. Once Post finally gets her hands on the glove
> > ("Faith, a word of advice: you're an idiot"), things turn
> > cheesier, but it's fun, energetic cheese, and the visual effects are
> > up to the task of keeping things looking good and explosive.
>
> I thought it was wicked cool, although I do wonder about that skylight
> that suddenly appeared in the vampire's mansion.
Well, Spike did complain about all the windows in the place: "It's
paradise. Big windows, lovely gardens. It'll be perfect when we want the
sunlight to *kill* us." Never really saw many of those big windows
though, he must have been talking about the skylight.
Kevin
Wow -- One Bit Shy has echoed my thoughts almost exactly (and far
expanded them) in eloquently defending this episode. Marvelous
comments on Faith, Mrs. Post, the W/X affair, the intervention, and
especially Xander's complicated position. Bravo.
One Bit Shy wrote:
> For me this is clearly the best made show of the season so far. The first
> one I would rate excellent.
Ditto. (I really thought AOQ would say the same...) How about that
intervention scene, compared to the escalated arguments in DMP? They
come from different motivations, of course, but Revelations seems to me
much more solid.
Otherwise, I add only that I thought Serena Scott Thomas was superb,
especially interacting with Tony Head; the brief Faith/Xander scene at
the Bronze by the pool table was one of my favorite bits from both
players; the acting all around was really quite fine, with a meaty
script that gave the cast many chances to shine. And Willow's
highly-charged, impromptu kiss of Xander in the stacks gets me in the
heart (which powers the goosebumps) every time. Her look just
beforehand, Giles' interruption, his *apparent* obliviousness (the
adult who raises a brow and pretends not to know, and doesn't want to
know), her bumbling afterward... I love it.
Oh, and this:
> Buffy: The place looks nice.
> Faith: Yeah, it's real spartan.
> (You really get Faith's Boston accent there.) That line really fascinates
> me. In spite of what Post did to Faith, she still latched onto Post's story
> of the Spartans. She really doesn't understand it all (linking "nice" to
> "spartan"), but she got the idea that a real warrior lives that way. In the
> end, what kind of influence do you suppose Post had on Faith?
I had that reaction too. Lots of little details... Real depth for
Faith... Strong dark ending. Great stuff.
--Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > It
> > might be worth opening the floor to opinions on whether Buffy is more
> > afraid of re-starting things because of personal emotional issues or
> > because of the fear of making him revert.
>
> I think they are so intertwined that it's sufficient to know that she fears
> her own emotional breakdown as well as Angel's reversion; that she fears
> what others will think of her as well as what might happen to them; without
> working overtime figuring out which is more important. Those and other
> elements are one big roiling turmoil to Buffy.
Well said.
> Another side question is why does perfect happiness have to be linked to
> sex? At this point with B/A that association would be unavoidable mentally
> whether it's true or not. But it does make one wonder if the peril is
> greater than that. Could you imagine them somehow coming to terms with a
> platonic love and then one day, sitting on a couch in front of fire, sipping
> hot cider and chatting about friends and good times, when Angel slips into a
> state of contented peace, and the next thing you know he's tearing Buffy's
> throat open.
>
> Is good possible in this relationship?
It's hard to say. Which is part of the point, and part of why they're
a little scared of picking up where they left off, and why Giles et al
take the news of their secret tryst so badly. It kinda depends on
Angel - how close to the surface can he keep the constant reminder that
he can never lose contrlol again, never be totally free of worries
again? Without Buffy he's less of a time-bomb, I suppose.
> But the question is whether the
> "contrivances" arise naturally from the established situation. I think they
> not only do that, but that's the entire point.
> The misunderstandings aren't merely flukey chances coming together, they are
> primarily the product of violated trust.
I'll have to pay attention to that idea when i re-watch.
> > How about *Xander* being the rational one when he and Faith find Giles
> > knocked out?
>
> I suppose, but this is one of the worst moments you've seen for Xander.
> This is when his own house of cards starts tumbling down. When he sees
> Giles and realizes that it's not Angel and that something he doesn't know is
> at work, it's terror that's setting in on him. Now he realizes he may have
> been wrong and begins to wonder what horrible thing he may have set in
> motion.
>
> The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
> Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
> here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
> unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
> Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
I want to think that you're right on this one. The argument certainly
sounds good, anyway, and, as you've mentioned a few times, helps make
this episode a logical followup to Bec and DMP. It's easy to miss that
since Xander doesn't get a huge amount of screen time and things are
happening so fast. And some of it will depend on whether this episode
marks a change for Xander in how he deals with all things B/A.
> > (Tangent: The "I statement"
> > thing doesn't work if you allow "I think that..." or "I feel
> > that..." Saying something like "I feel like you're being a
> > jerk" defeats the entire purpose of the exercise.)
>
> Um, I don't think so. It still transform the thought into an expression of
> opinion or explanation of feeling. You're a jerk is a statement of fact -
> like the world is round. I feel like you're being a jerk says that's how
> your behavior comes across to me. It gives room for perceptual differences.
> You're a jerk is also a straight insult aimed at the jerk. I feel like
> you're being a jerk reverses the aim, implying that I'm affected by your
> behavior. Even though it's not terribly good at explaining why, it does
> suggest a reason for being unhappy rather than just an attack. As strange
> as it is, Cordy's remark actually works better than bluntly saying Angel
> kills people. "I feel worried about me," is of course made for Cordy, but
> it ultimately expresses a sentiment worthy of Buffy's understanding.
Talk to anyone who deals in such things, they'll tell you that "I think
that..." is not a proper "I statement." "I feel like you're being a
jerk" may be softeened with a veneer of "I," but it's ultimately a "you
statement." Compare that to a real "I statement" like Cordelia's.
> When Buffy says, "You can trust me," it's heartfelt. But she doesn't know
> that Gwendolyn Post had just the day before told Faith in the same room to
> trust her - and Faith had. And then not only betrayed that trust, but also
> humiliated her with it. Faith is all trusted out.
Yep.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Somewhere around this time we got the famous "Is Faith Bi?"
> thread that went on and on for years. Also, there might be some fanfic
> along those lines. Not that I collect -- er, I mean, read that kind of
> stuff or anything. Mmmm, Faith... oh sorry, I digressed.
But who was whose fuckslutwhore?
> > So our issues haven't necessarily gone away, but maybe they
> > can be suppressed for a little longer...
>
> Yes. I'm sure that will work out well.
Well, it always has before in this show...
-AOQ
Jeff Jacoby
> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote in message
> news:1142205466.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>
>>> The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
>>> Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
>>> here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
>>> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
>>> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong -
>>> that's
>>> unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
>>> Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
>>
>> As per the other discussion, I will say your perception on This One is
>> very different from mine. I did see the anger without the exhaustion
>> or fear.
>>
>> Although I am always willing to entertain the idea that I am flat out
>> wrong, for right now I'll remain firmly on the fence.
>
>
> I'll stick to my perception quite firmly.
>
> Go back and look at the scene when found Giles on the floor. He doesn't
> believe Angel did it. And then things start running out of control. He
> tries to stop Faith, but can't, and is left with Faith's barb to get a pair.
> For him not to be scared of being wrong then, and especially when confronted
> by Buffy defies belief.
Here's another way of interpreting this.
Prior to knowing Giles was hurt he was all gung-ho for killing
Angelus (As far as Xander is concerned--not entirely irrationally
--Angel and Angelus can't be separated. You can't have one w/o
the other). He wasn't afraid of being wrong then, or Buffy's
reaction either.
Why should Giles' injury change that, no matter who caused
the injury?
Instead, Xander's reaction (the confusion, trying to puzzle out
the real perp, trying to stop Faith, etc.) is a rare moment of
maturity, one which allows him to realize not all bad things are
caused by Angel. His fear is *for Giles*. Another source of his
fear would be that killing Angel would not be getting whoever
did hurt Giles.
> I also suggest comparing that confrontation with Buffy to the intervention
> scene. The tone and physical posture are very different. And his strange
> choice of words. Still angry - yet defensive at the same time. He hitches
> just a tad when he says that Faith came to the bad conclusion.
>
> And again, he saw Giles. Not Angel's style. (Alive for one thing.) No
> bite marks. How can he possibly not fear that he was wrong.
Because only moments before he was ready to see Angel dead at
Faith's hand for no basis other than his existence. He wasn't
acting scared or worried then. After finding Giles, the fact
of Angel's existence hasn't changed. While he doesn't believe
Angel was the perpetrator, there is the possiblity he might be.
What you're arguing is this:
First: Xander wants Angel dead (Xander & Faith at Bronze)
==> but Xander's not worried he might be wrong.
(or at least given no indication of worry)
then
Next: Xander wants Angel dead PLUS Giles is injured, possibly
by Angel, but probably not.
==> now Xander's worried he might be wrong.
To me, that change defies belief.
> By the end, of course, he's retreated a thousand miles. Blandly saying,
> "Well, as long as she and Angel don't get pelvic, we'll be ok I guess."
Again, it could also be interpreted as a mature reaction
(masked in childish diffidence). Or simple resignation
knowing Buffy doesn't care what he thinks.
> I realize that many see this episode as just Xander being a jerk again.
> Forgetting for a moment whether or not he has justification, that's partly
> right. In a sense it's jerk at its peak. But this time it's also a huge
> come down. His view of Buffy/Angel had hardened to a core belief and he
> just got the rug pulled out from under it.
Not really. B/A is still a powder-keg, with at least one
known flashpoint. And Buffy keeps playing with fuse! (which
is tacitly acknowledged by the "don't get pelvic" quote above).
> Now he's got to wonder if that
> was all a house of cards. And he's got to wonder if the failure in trust
> was his all along and not hers.
She still lied (or at least hid the truth). That's a failure of
trust on her part. And coming so soon after the events of DMP?
It argues that trust of Buffy is the house of cards.
Just another possible way to look at the events of the ep. (I'm
just sayin')
Jeff
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for me.
> Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for him
> here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong - that's
> unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he sees
> Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
Good points, all I can say is that Xander's actions in this episode never
rang wrong for me the way they did in DMP originally.
[snip]
>> One-sentence summary: A fun action show and a fun bit of depth.
>> AOQ rating: Good
> For me this is clearly the best made show of the season so far. The first
> one I would rate excellent.
I'd rate it excellent as well but its a toss up between this and Anne for
best episode of the season so far IMHO with Band Candy the best of the
rest.
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A few highlights
> (insert '[snip]' where appropriate):
[snip]
> Indeed. Everyone in this scene, whether or not one agrees with him or
> her, is making sense on some level, and expressing an understandable
> point of view.
True enough. My favorite bit takes place a little later though:
Buffy: "Thanks for the bail in there.
I know this is a lot to absorb, but
Angel did find the glove and that
was a good..."
Giles: "Be quiet. I won't remind you
that the fate of the world often lies
with a Slayer. What would be the
point? Nor shall I remind you that
you've jeopardized the lives of all
that you hold dear by harboring a
known murderer. But, sadly, I must
remind you that Angel tortured me.
For hours. For pleasure. You
should've told me he was alive. You
didn't. You have no respect for me,
or the job I perform."
> How I love this show sometimes.
Indeed. It had its moments.
> I really wasn't feeling Willow this week.
IIRC, the explanation back in the day was Willow was off 'cause of all
the fluking. I personally wondered if Hannigan was feeling ill when
they filmed this.
> AOQ rating: Good
Well, this one creeps into excellent land for me; it's one of my series
favorites.
Terry
hopelessly devoted
Still pondering these particular points. I've gone back to watch it a
couple of times. Definately an interesting viewpoint. Right now,
still in the Hmmmmm stages.
:->
William George Ferguson
>> When Buffy says, "You can trust me," it's heartfelt. But she doesn't know
>> that Gwendolyn Post had just the day before told Faith in the same room to
>> trust her - and Faith had. And then not only betrayed that trust, but also
>> humiliated her with it. Faith is all trusted out.
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>Yep.
It's really hard for me to comment without doing unconscious spoilers, so
I'll just pull up comments I made at the time. The first post went out
within a few hours of the end of the original broadcast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Revelations - Random Comments (Spoilers)
Date: 1998/11/18
Message-ID: <365233b9....@enews.newsguy.com>#1/1
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
Xander: "Wait!"
Faith: "For what. For you to grow a pair?"
OK, Giles really needs to start checking references beforehand, not
afterward.
For those who feel Lagos went down too easily, that is right in line
with every other overly-full-of-themselves MotW since the start of the
show. One could mention Alfalfa and Poppa Smurf as examples, but the
trend goes all the way back to the start of season 1. Remember the
build up about this 'Edward Scissorhands' type vamp in Teacher's Pet?
They didn't even bother showing Buffy whipping his butt and putting
him on a leash to help track down Xander's sweetheart.
(flashback quote from Teacher's Pet)
Giles: "Uh, well, basically the, uh, the She-Mantis assumes the form
of a beautiful woman and then lures innocent virgins back to her nest.
Buffy: "Virgins? Well, Xander's not a, uh... I mean, he's
probably..."
Willow: "...gonna die!"
(end flashback)
Let's have a moratorium on Giles getting clocked as a plot device.
You know this was set up as a 'get things out in the open and reach
some closure' episode, and allowed Xander, especially to act something
less like a butt-head than he has been (of course, only after acting
more like one), but when you come right down to it, the episode was
really Faith-development time.
We now know that Faith basically feels that everyone she has ever felt
any closeness to at all has let her down. Either they didn't return
the feeling, or they betrayed her, or they died (and maybe some did
all three). Of course, the reason she feels this way is that it's the
truth. (the easiest way to become paranoid is to have everyone Really
out to get you). In this episode, we see her trying to reach out to
Buffy, and Buffy rebuffing her; Buffy's friends getting together,
which 'obviously doesn't include her'; and her 'new Watcher'
repeatedly telling her 'trust me', only to end up telling her 'you're
an idiot' (for trusting her). Buffy has family, friends, A Watcher
who cares about her. Faith has a little motel room (well, and cute
toes).
The Buffy/Faith fight. Faith was trying to take Buffy down, maybe
kill her. Buffy was trying to contain Faith without hurting her.
It's pretty clear that Buffy is a much more effective fighter than
Faith.
------------------------------------------------------------
And another Faith comment.
------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Faith No More...
Date: 1998/11/19
Message-ID: <36561bba....@enews.newsguy.com>#1/1
References: <19981118201921...@ng156.aol.com>
<forge-ya023180001811982359270001@news> <36530c2...@news.ican.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:14:42 GMT, dsm...@ican.net wrote:
>Faith is not happy right now
Something of an understatement, on the order of 'water isn't
completely dry'.
>(last word from Gwen ... "Faith, you're
>an idiot." ... She's got some deep pain back there somewhere ...
>deeper than just watching her first watcher die and getting sucked in
>by a bogus rogue watcher ... the "use'em and lose'em" approach to
>studs might be fun for a while but it also shows someone who might be
>unable to trust anyone. Lonely?
To quote the massively quotable Harry Chapin,
"She was so damned beautiful, she'd warm a winter frost"
"But she was long past lonely, and well nigh onto lost"
---------------------------------------------------------------
In of the posts following this ep, I first used the phrase, 'poor broken
Faith', and from this point on, that's how I thought of her, Broken Faith
(in both meanings of the word).
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
burt...@hotmail.com
> >threads.
> >
> >
> >Season Three, Episode 7: "Revelations"
> >(or "HOTT!!!1! Slayer-On-Slayer Action")
> >Director: James A. Contner
> >
> <SNIP FOR LENGTH, and I don't have a lot to say>
>
> Cheese? Cheese? Hmmmmmmm!
>
> Xander answers the question can he be any more annoying than he was in
> DMP? Answer: oh yeah!
I just rewatched the confrontation scene a little while ago, and while
a lot of people tend to focus mostly on Xander here, what's interesting
is that Buffy does just as much if not more to sabotage their talk than
he does. She accuses Xander, unfairly, of spying on her and tries to
use that to distract from the main topic - her own bad behavior.
Thinking about it, I can't help but think that Buffy was actually being
very calculating here. If she'd just been emotional and lashing out,
she could have gone after anyone. It wasn't just Xander; Cordelia, Oz,
and Giles were speaking out against her too (in fact, it was Oz who
first brought up her kissing Angel). But she'd get nowhere attacking
Cordelia, attacking Oz would have been a sure-fire way to turning
Willow against her in a hurry, and at this point she's not ready to
start blaming Giles for her own failures (but just wait).
So she goes after Xander, because he's the "soft target" - she knows
that no one will step up to defend him, and she knows he'll have an
emotional, angry reaction that she can use to deflect attention from
herself. And Xander, in full angry jerk mode, doesn't disappoint.
Daniel Damouth
news:41eb12p3v572roc97...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:14:42 GMT, dsm...@ican.net wrote:
>>Faith is not happy right now
>
> Something of an understatement, on the order of 'water isn't
> completely dry'.
As a CS Lewis character said, "Powerful wet stuff, ain't it?"
-Dan Damouth
One Bit Shy
news:IcGdnVzt4M2...@comcast.com...
There are two basic elements to what you describe as prior, plus a
complication.
1 - Abstract - Angel should be killed. At this point that wouldn't change.
He wouldn't even be thinking about it.
2 - Tangible action - He's on the way (with Faith) to finally kill Angel.
The moment has transformed from opinion to deed.
Giles injury changes Xander's view of the second because a scary unknown
element has entered the picture - somebody other than Angel probably has
attacked Giles - most likely associated with the glove, since that's the
prize currently in play. Whether Angel deserves killing isn't the primary
concern now. The scary unknown element is. And going off to kill Angel
(who is protecting the glove after all) misdirects the action and risks
making the situation worse. (Which, in fact, it did.)
Remember, Faith is standing there jumping to the conclusion that Angel did
it. Xander seriously doubts that's true and can see that Faith isn't
getting it. Even if killing Angel remains a good idea, Faith would still be
going off ignorant of an additional danger.
Faith is the complicating factor incidentally. More later.
> Instead, Xander's reaction (the confusion, trying to puzzle out
> the real perp, trying to stop Faith, etc.) is a rare moment of
> maturity, one which allows him to realize not all bad things are
> caused by Angel. His fear is *for Giles*. Another source of his
> fear would be that killing Angel would not be getting whoever
> did hurt Giles.
This was certainly more perceptive than we are normally accustomed to seeing
from him. And fear for Giles certainly was at play.
I don't see how that's an either or proposition.
Fearing the consequence of killing Angel is not just that it doesn't get
whoever attacked Giles, but that it could help that attacker - as it did.
>> I also suggest comparing that confrontation with Buffy to the
>> intervention
>> scene. The tone and physical posture are very different. And his
>> strange
>> choice of words. Still angry - yet defensive at the same time. He
>> hitches
>> just a tad when he says that Faith came to the bad conclusion.
>>
>> And again, he saw Giles. Not Angel's style. (Alive for one thing.) No
>> bite marks. How can he possibly not fear that he was wrong.
>
> Because only moments before he was ready to see Angel dead at
> Faith's hand for no basis other than his existence. He wasn't
> acting scared or worried then. After finding Giles, the fact
> of Angel's existence hasn't changed. While he doesn't believe
> Angel was the perpetrator, there is the possiblity he might be.
The fact of his existance hasn't changed, but other circumstances have.
Angel as perpetrator is one possibility, though Xander seems to think that
unlikely, and there are many other possibilities - mostly a set of unknowns.
Things just got more complicated and he realizes that acting rashly might
not be such a good idea.
> What you're arguing is this:
>
> First: Xander wants Angel dead (Xander & Faith at Bronze)
>
> ==> but Xander's not worried he might be wrong.
> (or at least given no indication of worry)
> then
>
> Next: Xander wants Angel dead PLUS Giles is injured, possibly
> by Angel, but probably not.
>
> ==> now Xander's worried he might be wrong.
>
> To me, that change defies belief.
Answered above. Whether Angel deserves killing is now in the background.
What's at issue is the best course of action right now, and killing Angel
might very much be the wrong one. I can't see him not worrying about that -
especially since he evidenced that worry by trying to stop Faith.
The Faith complication adds emphasis to his worry. Now Faith is on her own,
not understanding that another danger may be in play, and he's no longer in
a position to do anything about it. Furthermore, he would feel a
significant degree of responsibility for that. Faith made her own decision,
but it was based on Xander's version of the story (complete with bile), and
encouraged by Xander. There's more to Faith's motives than that, but Xander
wouldn't know that. From Xander's point of view, he essentially transferred
his own just kill the beast attitude to Faith, and now he's stuck with that
even though he's having doubts whether that's a good idea.
>> By the end, of course, he's retreated a thousand miles. Blandly saying,
>> "Well, as long as she and Angel don't get pelvic, we'll be ok I guess."
>
> Again, it could also be interpreted as a mature reaction
> (masked in childish diffidence). Or simple resignation
> knowing Buffy doesn't care what he thinks.
At this point, that's entirely possible. He hasn't been pulled up short
like this before and the message may or may not have penetrated deep enough
to make a lasting impression. By past BTVS history, one would expect some
kind of incremental approach to the issue - assuming it ever really gets
addressed.
I'm not trying to suggest that he is transformed. I'm suggesting that doubt
has been introduced. His retreat at the end hints at that.
Since we're getting into this level of detail, there's one more relavant
scene I believe. When Xander and Willow arrive at Angel's, the slightly
injured Gwendolyn Post sends Xander to go help Faith. But he doesn't do
that. Instead he tries to step between them and tells them to stop. And
then starts to say, "Guys, listen...", whereupon Faith tosses him aside.
What do you suppose he was going to say? We'll never know for sure, but if
you add up what he knows, there may be a hint. When he arrives he sees an
unconcious Angel - he would assume via Faith, because she went there to kill
him. He sees a hurt Gwendolyn Post - from an unknown source at this point,
though she also would be an unexpected presence. And he sees Faith and
Buffy fighting - presumably over Faith's attempt to kill Angel. There's no
glove to be seen - in particular it's not with Angel. (At this point he may
have also worked out that the attack on Giles had to be someone after the
Glove - since that was what Giles was worried about when taken away. Which
also means that the attack wouldn't be by Angel, since he already had the
glove.)
So what might he have to say? Oh, maybe some platitude about working things
out or something. Sure. Or he might want to tell them what he knows.
Faith - somebody else is after the glove. Angel didn't hit Giles. Buffy -
Faith doesn't understand the situation. Maybe not, but he sure acted like
he had something to say more than just stop fighting.
It's not much and may not mean anything, but is is consistant with my
perspective. And you will note that he evidences no concern about the
status of Angel.
>> I realize that many see this episode as just Xander being a jerk again.
>> Forgetting for a moment whether or not he has justification, that's
>> partly
>> right. In a sense it's jerk at its peak. But this time it's also a huge
>> come down. His view of Buffy/Angel had hardened to a core belief and he
>> just got the rug pulled out from under it.
>
> Not really. B/A is still a powder-keg, with at least one
> known flashpoint. And Buffy keeps playing with fuse! (which
> is tacitly acknowledged by the "don't get pelvic" quote above).
Don't go there yet. I'm not offering the key to all that is Xander. It's
just one event. Something to introduce doubt, not to unravel everything.
Any number of things could happen to alter its impact positively or
negatively in the future.
>> Now he's got to wonder if that
>> was all a house of cards. And he's got to wonder if the failure in trust
>> was his all along and not hers.
>
> She still lied (or at least hid the truth). That's a failure of
> trust on her part. And coming so soon after the events of DMP?
> It argues that trust of Buffy is the house of cards.
Not an either or proposition. If you read the rest of my Revelations
analysis, you know that I consider Buffy's betrayal of trust to be a very
big deal - the single biggest factor in the episode as a whole. Without
that, nothing would play out the same.
This is a subsection of the story. One of the points of it, as is so
typical with BTVS writing, is to cloud the obvious theme with ambiguity. To
suggest that exactly the reverse could be true too.
To a significant degree it doesn't matter if Xander gets this at all. Just
the fact that Xander and Faith almost screwed everything up is its own
caution. You can blame it all on Buffy if you want, but maybe Xander
shouldn't be jumping to (and acting upon) all the worst assumptions just
because Buffy didn't tell him the one thing everybody on the planet knows is
the last thing he's ready to hear. Remember, Buffy's secret did achieve one
thing. It got Gwendolyn Post to make one grave error in not realizing Angel
was a vampire.
Trust is in act of faith, not just some totting up of who's hiding what from
whom. It goes to the depths of people's judgments and character. When we
pause for a moment in analyzing how correct or incorrect Buffy's decisions
are under very complex circumstances, *we* know that whatever that answer
may be Buffy is still acting from her heart, trying to do as best as she
can. Xander doesn't know the details we do, but he does know Buffy's heart.
Perhaps he should have retained his faith first and trusted Buffy anyway.
That's not an easy balance to figure out. But there's nothing in this
series to suggest that they're out to make anything easy.
> Just another possible way to look at the events of the ep. (I'm
> just sayin')
No, I'm just sayin' <heh-heh>
Cheers,
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1142218141.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Wow -- One Bit Shy has echoed my thoughts almost exactly (and far
> expanded them) in eloquently defending this episode. Marvelous
> comments on Faith, Mrs. Post, the W/X affair, the intervention, and
> especially Xander's complicated position. Bravo.
Thank you.
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> For me this is clearly the best made show of the season so far. The
>> first
>> one I would rate excellent.
>
> Ditto. (I really thought AOQ would say the same...) How about that
> intervention scene, compared to the escalated arguments in DMP? They
> come from different motivations, of course, but Revelations seems to me
> much more solid.
It's a much better scene I think, but they're still very connected. The
proximate cause is different, but the issue of trust is in both.
> Otherwise, I add only that I thought Serena Scott Thomas was superb,
> especially interacting with Tony Head;
Yes, well worth emphasizing. When Giles says his first encounter with her
was "bracing", I have to laugh, because bracing is good description of what
she brings to the episode. Even if she is an evil bitch witch.
> the brief Faith/Xander scene at
> the Bronze by the pool table was one of my favorite bits from both
> players; the acting all around was really quite fine, with a meaty
> script that gave the cast many chances to shine. And Willow's
> highly-charged, impromptu kiss of Xander in the stacks gets me in the
> heart (which powers the goosebumps) every time. Her look just
> beforehand, Giles' interruption, his *apparent* obliviousness (the
> adult who raises a brow and pretends not to know, and doesn't want to
> know), her bumbling afterward... I love it.
You know, it never occurred to me that Giles might have actually seen them.
We don't see that, but it's not impossible. And I suppose he would look
away. Now there's a thought.
One Bit Shy
news:1142223285.7...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> I want to think that you're right on this one. The argument certainly
> sounds good, anyway, and, as you've mentioned a few times, helps make
> this episode a logical followup to Bec and DMP. It's easy to miss that
> since Xander doesn't get a huge amount of screen time and things are
> happening so fast. And some of it will depend on whether this episode
> marks a change for Xander in how he deals with all things B/A.
You know, sometimes I wish BTVS made it easy to do B/A.... Nah.
You've seen the next episode now, so you know he's a bit pre-occupied.
Maybe later.
OBS
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote in message
> news:1142218141.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Wow -- One Bit Shy has echoed my thoughts almost exactly (and far
>>expanded them) in eloquently defending this episode. Marvelous
>>comments on Faith, Mrs. Post, the W/X affair, the intervention, and
>>especially Xander's complicated position. Bravo.
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
>>One Bit Shy wrote:
>>
>>>For me this is clearly the best made show of the season so far. The
>>>first
>>>one I would rate excellent.
>>
>>Ditto. (I really thought AOQ would say the same...) How about that
>>intervention scene, compared to the escalated arguments in DMP? They
>>come from different motivations, of course, but Revelations seems to me
>>much more solid.
>
>
> It's a much better scene I think, but they're still very connected. The
> proximate cause is different, but the issue of trust is in both.
>
>
>
>>Otherwise, I add only that I thought Serena Scott Thomas was superb,
>>especially interacting with Tony Head;
>
>
> Yes, well worth emphasizing. When Giles says his first encounter with her
> was "bracing", I have to laugh, because bracing is good description of what
> she brings to the episode. Even if she is an evil bitch witch.
LOL. The sad and ironic thing is, she's probably just the kind of
Watcher that would do the most good for Faith. Well, minus the evil part
of course. I'm sure ME planned it that way!
Mel
One Bit Shy
news:ItmdnUtyhcb...@uci.net...
That is sad isn't it. Damn. Now I'm going to have to spend the rest of the
day thinking serious thoughts.
OBS
Kevin
One Bit Shy wrote:
> Kevin wrote:
> > Otherwise, I add only that I thought Serena Scott Thomas was superb,
> > especially interacting with Tony Head;
>
> Yes, well worth emphasizing. When Giles says his first encounter with her
> was "bracing", I have to laugh, because bracing is good description of what
> she brings to the episode. Even if she is an evil bitch witch.
Some people found her manner really upsetting; I thought it enormously
fun to watch. Every single thing she says is a snide jab at Giles, and
he just bristles at her every word. Then, appalled and offended by her
attacks on his competence, he also has to watch this wretched woman
accept his offer of tea, only to replace his teabag with her own. Talk
about getting under an Englishman's skin! The writing for them was
marvelous, and they acted the pants off of those scenes. Boy, can Tony
Head *react*.
I loved her breezy entrance into the mansion, asking about the living
flame and eliciting a classic shifty-eyed minimalist response from
Dead(pan) Boy... One reviewer in '99 said it well:
"And notice how she deals with Angel: she knows exactly 4
things--"Glove of Myneghon", "living flame," "Mr. Giles," and "Lagos".
So
she walks briskly in, takes the offensive, establishes her credibility
by
parceling out her four pieces of information, plays her last card by
questioning his competence to perform the ritual correctly, and then
asks
him where the Glove is before Angel can think to ask _her_ what his own
name is." ( -- Stephen Blatt)
Too bad about Giles' "dying words", though, which you'd think might
contain "Mrs... Post... Evil..." (My one rolling-of-the-eyes moment
in Revelations.) Aah, well.
--Kevin
Jeff Jacoby
> "Jeff Jacoby" <jjaco...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:IcGdnVzt4M2...@comcast.com...
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:58:51 -0500, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1142205466.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The scene with Buffy that follows is one of the more painful ones for
>>>>> me.
>>>>> Some people really hate Xander in this episode, but I want to cry for
>>>>> him
>>>>> here. Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
>>>>> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
>>>>> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong -
>>>>> that's
>>>>> unthinkable - and makes his last defense. But even as he does it he
>>>>> sees
>>>>> Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was wrong.
[snip, this is OBS again...]
I think we're pretty close on the above points. As
mentioned by someone else (I'm forgetting the poster)
Xander is re-prioritizing which, in light of his known
hatred of Angel, is a thoughtful, mature reaction.
>> Instead, Xander's reaction (the confusion, trying to puzzle out
>> the real perp, trying to stop Faith, etc.) is a rare moment of
>> maturity, one which allows him to realize not all bad things are
>> caused by Angel. His fear is *for Giles*. Another source of his
>> fear would be that killing Angel would not be getting whoever
>> did hurt Giles.
>
> This was certainly more perceptive than we are normally accustomed to seeing
> from him. And fear for Giles certainly was at play.
I said a "rare" moment, but one that's consistent with his
character. He's not totally immune to thoughtfulness or
good decision-making--he's just very resistent to it. :)
I agree his concerned about doing the right thing, whatever
that might be, no matter his feelings toward Angel.
Re-quoting here...
>>>>> Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
>>>>> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
>>>>> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong -
>>>>> that's unthinkable - and makes his last defense.
>>>>> But even as he
>>>>> does it he sees Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was
>>>>> wrong.
I've watched the scene again and I simply don't see
"emotionally exhausted". And while I see fear and
concern (for Giles--who is near death acccording to
the paramedics--and for doing the right thing--dealing
with the glove last seen in possesion of Angelus) I
don't see "horrible" upwelling fear about whether
he's right or wrong about Angel being Angelus.
Despite his hitched and angry words (which I believe
result directly from his concern for Giles as much as
anything else) he's already acknowledged he *may* be wrong
about *this* particular incident. There still has to be
in his mind the very distinct possibility Angel *is*
responsible.
> The Faith complication adds emphasis to his worry. Now Faith is on her own,
> not understanding that another danger may be in play, and he's no longer in
> a position to do anything about it. Furthermore, he would feel a
> significant degree of responsibility for that. Faith made her own decision,
> but it was based on Xander's version of the story (complete with bile), and
> encouraged by Xander. There's more to Faith's motives than that, but Xander
> wouldn't know that. From Xander's point of view, he essentially transferred
> his own just kill the beast attitude to Faith, and now he's stuck with that
> even though he's having doubts whether that's a good idea.
>
>
>>> By the end, of course, he's retreated a thousand miles. Blandly saying,
>>> "Well, as long as she and Angel don't get pelvic, we'll be ok I guess."
>>
>> Again, it could also be interpreted as a mature reaction
>> (masked in childish diffidence). Or simple resignation
>> knowing Buffy doesn't care what he thinks.
>
> At this point, that's entirely possible. He hasn't been pulled up short
> like this before
I think it's important that the one "pulling him up short" is
himself.
> and the message may or may not have penetrated deep enough
> to make a lasting impression. By past BTVS history, one would expect some
> kind of incremental approach to the issue - assuming it ever really gets
> addressed.
>
> I'm not trying to suggest that he is transformed. I'm suggesting that doubt
> has been introduced. His retreat at the end hints at that.
Agreed. And such self-doubt can be viewed as a sign of
maturity on his part.
> Since we're getting into this level of detail, there's one more relavant
> scene I believe. When Xander and Willow arrive at Angel's, the slightly
> injured Gwendolyn Post sends Xander to go help Faith. But he doesn't do
> that.
[Quick aside... Mrs. Post broke a shovel handle across
her knee!! From experience (painful), I can tell you she
must be pretty goddamn strong!]
> Instead he tries to step between them and tells them to stop.
> And
> then starts to say, "Guys, listen...", whereupon Faith tosses him aside.
Trying to stop a fight between two slayers (in addition to being
really, really stupid and dangerous) can be viewed as helping
Faith (and Buffy) from getting hurt. So I do see this as an attempt
to help.
> What do you suppose he was going to say? We'll never know for sure, but if
> you add up what he knows, there may be a hint. When he arrives he sees an
> unconcious Angel - he would assume via Faith, because she went there to kill
> him. He sees a hurt Gwendolyn Post - from an unknown source at this point,
> though she also would be an unexpected presence. And he sees Faith and
> Buffy fighting - presumably over Faith's attempt to kill Angel. There's no
> glove to be seen - in particular it's not with Angel. (At this point he may
> have also worked out that the attack on Giles had to be someone after the
> Glove - since that was what Giles was worried about when taken away. Which
> also means that the attack wouldn't be by Angel, since he already had the
> glove.)
>
> So what might he have to say? Oh, maybe some platitude about working things
> out or something. Sure. Or he might want to tell them what he knows.
> Faith - somebody else is after the glove. Angel didn't hit Giles. Buffy -
> Faith doesn't understand the situation. Maybe not, but he sure acted like
> he had something to say more than just stop fighting.
>
> It's not much and may not mean anything, but is is consistant with my
> perspective.
Also consistent with mine.
> And you will note that he evidences no concern about the
> status of Angel.
Angel is down-and-out and can be dealt with later. Again the
re-prioritizing of threats (and again, at the risk of boring
everyone to death, consistent with my perspective too).
>>> I realize that many see this episode as just Xander being a jerk again.
>>> Forgetting for a moment whether or not he has justification, that's
>>> partly
>>> right. In a sense it's jerk at its peak. But this time it's also a huge
>>> come down. His view of Buffy/Angel had hardened to a core belief and he
>>> just got the rug pulled out from under it.
>>
>> Not really. B/A is still a powder-keg, with at least one
>> known flashpoint. And Buffy keeps playing with fuse! (which
>> is tacitly acknowledged by the "don't get pelvic" quote above).
>
> Don't go there yet. I'm not offering the key to all that is Xander. It's
> just one event. Something to introduce doubt, not to unravel everything.
> Any number of things could happen to alter its impact positively or
> negatively in the future.
>
>
>>> Now he's got to wonder if that
>>> was all a house of cards. And he's got to wonder if the failure in trust
>>> was his all along and not hers.
>>
>> She still lied (or at least hid the truth). That's a failure of
>> trust on her part. And coming so soon after the events of DMP?
>> It argues that trust of Buffy is the house of cards.
>
> Not an either or proposition. If you read the rest of my Revelations
> analysis, you know that I consider Buffy's betrayal of trust to be a very
> big deal - the single biggest factor in the episode as a whole. Without
> that, nothing would play out the same.
I now see that, unlike what I said in that review thread,
DMP did have significance beyond the trite "good moves"
we're-all-better-now ending. (and channelling my inner
stubbornXander, I still wouldn't rate DMP as Excellent.)
> This is a subsection of the story. One of the points of it, as is so
> typical with BTVS writing, is to cloud the obvious theme with ambiguity. To
> suggest that exactly the reverse could be true too.
>
> To a significant degree it doesn't matter if Xander gets this at all. Just
> the fact that Xander and Faith almost screwed everything up is its own
> caution. You can blame it all on Buffy if you want, but maybe Xander
> shouldn't be jumping to (and acting upon) all the worst assumptions just
> because Buffy didn't tell him the one thing everybody on the planet knows is
> the last thing he's ready to hear. Remember, Buffy's secret did achieve one
> thing. It got Gwendolyn Post to make one grave error in not realizing Angel
> was a vampire.
>
> Trust is in act of faith, not just some totting up of who's hiding what from
> whom. It goes to the depths of people's judgments and character. When we
> pause for a moment in analyzing how correct or incorrect Buffy's decisions
> are under very complex circumstances, *we* know that whatever that answer
> may be Buffy is still acting from her heart, trying to do as best as she
> can. Xander doesn't know the details we do, but he does know Buffy's heart.
> Perhaps he should have retained his faith first and trusted Buffy anyway.
Perhaps. But given all the shocks he and the others have
gone through regarding trusting her (DMP, hiding Angel,
anything else I might have forgotten) I can't fault him for
his initial doubts in Buffy's trustworthiness. His final
acquisence (or as much as he's willing to give) *is* a testament
to his trust (naq nf sne nf V pna erzrzore gur gjb bs gurz ner tbbq
guebhtubhg gur erfg bs gur frnfba).
He re-adjusted his selfish priorities based on more important
needs. He realized he may be wrong about a particluarly strongly
held belief (Angel is the source of all evil). He attempted to
do something to correct it (assisting Willow, trying to stop the
slayer fight, ignoring Angel). Despite his better judgement
he's finally willing to trust her.
None of this is inconsistent with the perspective I proposed.
Jeff
One Bit Shy
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:34:53 -0500, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Jeff Jacoby" <jjaco...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:IcGdnVzt4M2...@comcast.com...
>>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 19:58:51 -0500, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>>> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1142205466.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Emotionally exhausted. An anger that refuses to let go, and a
>>>>>> horrible fear welling up. He pushed the Angel issue to the ultimate
>>>>>> consequence and stands there telling himself that he can't be wrong -
>>>>>> that's unthinkable - and makes his last defense.
>>>>>> But even as he
>>>>>> does it he sees Buffy's reaction and knows inside that he really was
>>>>>> wrong.
>
> I've watched the scene again and I simply don't see
> "emotionally exhausted". And while I see fear and
> concern (for Giles--who is near death acccording to
> the paramedics--and for doing the right thing--dealing
> with the glove last seen in possesion of Angelus) I
> don't see "horrible" upwelling fear about whether
> he's right or wrong about Angel being Angelus.
>
> Despite his hitched and angry words (which I believe
> result directly from his concern for Giles as much as
> anything else) he's already acknowledged he *may* be wrong
> about *this* particular incident. There still has to be
> in his mind the very distinct possibility Angel *is*
> responsible.
Ok, then it comes back to this, since we don't seem to really disagree on
much else.
Two quick pre-notes. First, again, I do not mean this as transformative in
itself. Certainly not that he's changed his big picture opinion of Angel.
Even the lower level aspect of being wrong in chosen action is not
certainty. I spoke of continued anger combined with fear of maybe screwing
up. I think that may plant a seed that eventually leads to re-evaluating
his big picture. But he's sure not there yet.
Second, in my description of that scene, I hope it was clear that I was
extrapolating how I think he felt. That's only partly based on his behavior
and manner and so on. We are limited on that front to what the actor can
depict. I'm quite happy with the acting, but even the best would have
difficulty displaying all the nuances involved. I actually rely more on
circumstance and actual words - the stuff coming from the writing.
Circumstance:
1 - His deep antipathy towards Angel, hardened over a long time, and brought
back to the surface by his return.
2 - His long term anger at Buffy over her persistant love of Angel, and
brought back to the surface by her deception. (I don't want to go into all
of this - there's obviously too much to that. But part of the difficulty in
the feeling is how it severs his link to Buffy, which he has built so much
of his life around. So it's a very painful anger - and some of the anger is
about that pain.)
3 - The deep anger of both has been with him somewhat for half a year at
least. The surface anger for both has now been running hot ever since he
saw the two kissing. A long time to stay in a state of rage. (Accented
further by all of his friends refusing to do anything about it besides
"scold" Buffy.)
4 - His decision to act on it by going with Faith to kill Angel. Turning
that kind of thought to deed is no small deal in itself. At the least his
adrenalin level had to have shot up.
5 - Finding Giles seriously hurt - possibly near death. (The paramedics
certainly suggested that.)
6 - Realizing that Angel probably isn't the one who attacked Giles.
Something unknown and very dangerous has entered the game!
7 - Realizing that killing Angel now is likely a distraction at best, and
quite possibly a disaster. (Angel is who is protecting the glove!)
8 - Seeing Faith not understand that and running off to kill Angel anyway.
Now the situation is out of control - possibly careening towards disaster.
9 - Realizing that, at the least, he helped Faith decide to go after Angel
that night, maybe planted the whole idea.
Before Buffy shows up. Before a word is spoken between them, I think
emotional exhaustion is a given. I think the fear that something horrible
may be in the works that he shares responsibility for is a given.
Words:
Buffy: What happened?
Xander: Your boyfriend's not as cured as your thought.
Even though we know by Xander's own words that he doubts Angel is
responsible, he still starts with the defiant stance. I described it as his
last defense. The anger is far from gone, even though I think he's starting
to run on empty. It's also the excuse he has available - even though,
again, he knows it doesn't stand up.
Buffy: What makes you think Angel had anything to do with this?
I guess Buffy isn't convinced. (She saw Giles' conditon too.) Xander can't
really counter that since he doesn't really think Angel is responsible. Bad
spot for him. Now he's essentially started with a lie and Buffy doesn't
believe him.
Xander: We saw what you saw.
Cute. You do see how that avoids the question, right? It also starts
adjusting the excuse. No longer the flat declaration that Angel did it.
Now it's turned to isn't that what anybody would think? Again, while inside
he *doesn't* think that.
Buffy: So you just assume?
She hits right at the weak spot. Again, he can't counter, since he didn't
assume. He'll have to adjust again - and start to reveal.
Xander: I didn't.... Faith did.
Oh Xander, Xander. Not me. Not my fault. It's virtually an admission that
he lied with his first statement. But the big deal is the Faith part. This
is where his fear has to kick in. That's huge - and horrible news. The
thing he would have to be scared to say, not only because it reveals the
trouble Faith may be causing, but also because it'll send Buffy off after
her. If things were careening out of control when Faith left, where are
they now?
But most of all because...
Buffy: What did you tell her?
Bingo. The stab to his heart. The thing he had to have feared most was
telling Buffy. This isn't like their prior confrontations. Back then he
wounded her with harsh opinions. This time it has been turned to deeds, and
now, with it all going wrong, he has to face Buffy and tell her. I cannot
conceive of any way that he wouldn't be quaking now. Buffy is essentially
challenging him whether he did this. And inside, he almost certainly feels
that he did. Faith wouldn't be out for bear now if it weren't for him. And
Buffy's caught him.
Xander: Only what everyone knows.... She's a big girl.... Came to her own
conclusions.
The last excuse. He doesn't control Faith. He also avoids the question
again. But there is only one way that Buffy could take "Only what everyone
knows," and that would be Xander feeding his hateful lines to Faith. As far
as Buffy would be concerned, Xander is now responsible for Faith's misguided
actions. She doesn't have time to deal with that now - lucky Xander - she
has to deal with Faith. And will have time later to put the rest of the
pieces together - including her own responsibility - before dealing with
Xander. But right now, that's all Xander has to think of.
See, the thing about all of this is that going back to Xander's original
conversation with Faith, when his base anger overrode everything, he still
knew that his deeds were in direct conflict with Buffy's desires. He knew
he was violating her trust. He knew that he was essentially betraying her.
Then, he thought he was justified. Now, not only isn't he sure that he was
justified (because of the changing circumstances - not becuase he thinks
Angel is cool), he actually has to face Buffy with that betrayal.
He should also begin to understand that there's more to this issue than who
is right about Angel. More even than what Buffy has done to him. He has
responsibility too. His deeds have consequences too. He probably had
imagined this as a big I told you so. But it all went wrong. Instead of
striking at Angel, he ended up striking at Buffy.
>> Not an either or proposition. If you read the rest of my Revelations
>> analysis, you know that I consider Buffy's betrayal of trust to be a very
>> big deal - the single biggest factor in the episode as a whole. Without
>> that, nothing would play out the same.
>
> I now see that, unlike what I said in that review thread,
> DMP did have significance beyond the trite "good moves"
> we're-all-better-now ending. (and channelling my inner
> stubbornXander, I still wouldn't rate DMP as Excellent.)
And in the end, though better appreciating what DMP achieved, I still rated
it as Decent. I'll never get past how unpleasant and even dull so much of
it is.
"Fault" is a tricky concept in the best of circumstances, and BTVS tends to
never make it clear. Everybody has reasons. Good ones even. Unintended
consequences rear up - and then they too turn ambiguous.
That's why I emphasized thinking of trust as an act of faith.
----
Feel free to respond in full or not - but I think I personally have more
than played this one out. Thank you for your consideration.
OBS
Scythe Matters
> and B and F will have surrendered to their burning longing for
> each other (to beat the crap out of each other, that is, in one of the
> series' best fight scenes yet).
Yep. Buffy and Faith fighting is a coreographic thing of beauty.
> Our favorite Season Two couple find themselves drawn together again,
> and I like how Buffy realizes there's no point denying that it's
> happening. Angel pretty much seems like himself again this week. It
> might be worth opening the floor to opinions on whether Buffy is more
> afraid of re-starting things because of personal emotional issues or
> because of the fear of making him revert. This also raises the
> question of whether knowing that perfect happiness will release his
> inner demon could itself be a way to keep Angel from ever getting too
> content again.
Now here's where we revisit that conversation we were having back in the
"Beauty and the Beasts" days.
Buffy -- as we've seen in "Band Candy" -- is capable of making a few
good, adult decisions under pressure, but she's most certainly not
capable of making all of them, or making them consistently...especially
as shown by the Angel situation; here's an especially bad one she's
making, on multiple levels. Secondarily, there's the hiding of the
relationship, which can only end badly (and, in fact, does). But
primarily, there's the relationship itself. How can this possibly lead
to anything but disaster...*again*? She makes him happy. He can't *be*
happy.
So what I was hinting at earlier becomes clearer in this episode:
Buffy's clearly not going to be able to control herself here. Which
leaves responsibility for the relationship to the only adult -- and a
rather aged adult -- in it: Angel. So what does he do? He gets all
touchy-feely during T'ai Chi. And:
----
Angel: (pulls on his shirt) What are we doing?
Buffy: (stops) Training. (quietly) And almost kissing.
Angel looks at her and steps toward her as he buttons his shirt. Buffy
turns to face him.
Buffy: Sorry. It's just... (smiles weakly) old habit. (loses the smile)
Bad, bad habit to be broken.
Angel: It's hard.
----
...recalling his similar line all those many months ago, before his
desouling, when Buffy was leaving his apartment in the morning. And:
----
Angel's mansion. He and Buffy are kissing passionately. The camera
circles around them as they continue kissing. Suddenly Buffy breaks it
off and takes a couple of steps backward and looks away from his face.
Buffy: Oh, God...
Angel: (confused) Buffy...
Buffy: What am I doing? (looks up at him) What are *you* doing?
Angel: (still confused) I don't know.
Buffy: Shame on you!
[...]
Buffy: So... no touching. (nods, looks at their hands) Kinda like us.
Angel gets the hint and releases her hand.
----
Angel *should* have a better sense of his responsibility -- to her and
to everyone, if he's once more desouled -- especially since it's Buffy
who puts on the brakes, then makes it worse, then puts on the brakes,
then makes it worse.... For him to essentially encourage the resumption
of their relationship is massively unwise and not particularly fair to
Buffy, who is physically and emotionally immature and cannot be expected
to be the wiser of the pair.
> (How can think that Buffy isn't doing a good
> job as a Slayer is beyond me.)
I think you may be misunderstanding the mission of the Watchers. We've
now seen one and heard of another who appear to have very, very
different relationships with the Slayer(s) than does Giles with Buffy.
Gwen has non-Watcher issues at play, but Kendra was very controlled and
regimented as well. It's worth asking: which is it? Does Giles represent
the Watchers' role vis-à-vis Slayers, or does Gwen? Or both? Because if
Gwen is actually acting more "correctly" -- and Giles' reactions to her
give plenty of indications and hints that she is -- that certainly means
something significant in terms of the Watcher/Slayer relationship *as it
is traditionally practiced*.
> And then the Watchers seem to be
> warming up to each other in trite rom-com fashion
I enjoy how they soften her and make her a lot more attractive...one
Gwen/Giles scene before she turns irredeemably evil. Nice feint. I
guessed all along that Gwen would die, but I didn't at all think it
would be in this fashion or for this reason.
> How about *Xander* being the rational one when he and Faith find Giles
> knocked out?
As others have said, he's starting to realize the consequences of his
attitude, which is made even more clear later in the episode, as Buffy's
confronting him in the library.
> I really wasn't feeling Willow this week. Something in Hannigan's
> delivery when she does "stammer-ey" gets annoying in large doses.
I usually like the stammering, but I do agree that something was off
with Willow in this episode. But there's another piece to the Willow
puzzle here that's worth noting:
----
Willow: [...] Can I ask you a question? (Buffy nods) When you were with
Angel and nobody knew about it, did that make it feel, you know, sexier
somehow?
Buffy: Not really. It's too much pressure. After a while, it even makes
the fun parts... not so fun.
Willow: (disappointed) Oh.
----
We've already seen that she might have a slightly problematic
relationship with conflicts/issues and dramatic solutions thereto. And
we've seen that she can be a little evasive when it comes to certain
things: magic and Malcom, for example. Here, we have her reaction to
Buffy's "not really"...and it's a disappointed one, but also a
disbelieving one. Because it's clear that, to her, it *is* sexier and
more fun to have a Big Secret.
> Also, not a fan of the cemetary scene with Buffy (the "opened my SAT
> booklet" bit), given how obvious it was that she'd be interrupted
> and then back out of her revelation.
It doesn't work unless you realize that Buffy is incredibly
self-obsessed at the moment. It's all about her, her problems, and her
feelings. This is a moment where she's not being a very good friend to
Willow.
> Despite the heavy-sounding stuff, I think that at its heart
> "Revelations" is also very much about magical objects of death, and
> who'll attack whom from behind.
Mostly, it's about trust, but pretty much everyone has said that.
> So, Cordelia and Oz have pretty much been pushed out of relevance for
> the last two episodes. Is this a trend, or just a fluctuation?
Comfort. They're setting up a comfort zone by not focusing on the
relationships. Not to spoil ahead for anyone who isn't there yet,
but...well, you know.
> I quite like the reconciliation between Buffy and Xander at the end.
> "Are we cool?" To the point. And Xander actually admits to making
> something of a mistake, and at least pays lip service (it's hard to
> tell how deeply he believes it) to how far their trust should take
> them. So our issues haven't necessarily gone away, but maybe they
> can be suppressed for a little longer...
Yes. A well done scene. Not only does Xander admit that he's screwed up,
but Buffy admits that he's had a valid point all along...and neither of
them say it all that explicitly. One thing that's marvelous in that
scene -- and big surprise if you, in particular, weren't paying
attention ;-) -- is Cordelia's reaction once Xander starts on his "I saw
you kissing" riff. She knows very well what motivates Xander in this
case, no matter what he says.
A few other things:
1) Both Buffy and Faith fight Lagos. Faith gets tossed around, while
Buffy slays him fairly easily. What's the difference? When they fight
later in the episode, they seem pretty evenly matched, so it's not
strength or physical skill. But Buffy fights smarter, by taking Lagos'
weapon away and using it against him, rather than the raw fisticuffs
employed by Faith. That's interesting.
2) When Faith finds out that there's a "secret meeting," note her first
instinct:
----
Gwendolyn: (stands) His methods are unfathomable to me. I find him
entirely confounding. But that is not important. Let him have his games
and secret meetings.
Faith: What meetings?
Gwendolyn: Oh, I don't know. Something with Buffy and her friends.
Faith: Oh, right. I guess that doesn't include me.
Gwendolyn: And why does he let her socialize so much? It hardly
seems... No matter. Would you like to do some training?
Faith: Training? (stands up) As in kicking and punching and stabbing?
Gwendolyn: (smiles) Yes, that's the idea.
Faith: I'm your girl.
----
Violence.
3) Following on that, she finds that Buffy's been hiding something
*very* important from her, even to the point of explicitly lying about
it earlier in the episode. What's her first instinct?
----
Faith: Yeah, well, I say we can't afford to find out. (has Xander's
full attention) I say I deal with this problem right now. I say I slay.
----
Violence.
4) So what's the episode about?
----
Faith: Ronnie, deadbeat. Steve, klepto. Kenny... drummer. Eventually, I
just had to face up to my destiny as a loser magnet. Now it's strictly
get some, get gone. You can't trust guys.
Buffy: You can trust some guys. (gets a doubtful look from Faith)
Really, I've read about them.
[...]
Gwendolyn: I'm going to be very hard on you, Faith. I will not brook
insolence or laziness. And I will not allow blunders like last night's
attack. You will probably hate me a great deal of the time.
Faith: (smiles sardonically) You think?
Gwendolyn: (steps over to the bed) But I will make you a better Slayer,
(sits next to Faith) and that will keep you alive. You have to trust
that I am right.
[...]
Gwendolyn: (weak from her fight) She doesn't know. She's blinded by
love.
Buffy: Faith, no.
Gwendolyn: Trust me.
[...]
Gwendolyn: (smiling maliciously) Faith! A word of advice: you're an
idiot.
[...]
Buffy: (hesitatingly) Are we cool?
Xander: Yeah! Just seeing the two of you kissing after everything that
happened, I leaned toward the postal. (pauses) But I trust you.
Cordelia: I don't. Just for the record.
[...]
Buffy: Look, Gwendolyn Post, or whoever she may be, had us all fooled.
Even Giles.
Faith: (without looking up) Yeah, well, you can't trust people. I
should've learned that by now.
Buffy: I realize this is gonna sound funny coming from someone that
just spent a lot of time kicking your face... but you can trust me.
Faith: (looks up, amused) Is that right? (tosses the magazine aside)
Buffy: I know I kept secrets, but I didn't have a choice. I'm on your
side.
Faith: *I'm* on my side, (nods) and that's enough.
----
It's about trust. And thanks to Gwen's evil and Buffy's massively unwise
decision-making regarding Angel, it doesn't seem Faith has any of it
right now.
Jeff Jacoby
[snip]
> So what I was hinting at earlier becomes clearer in this episode:
> Buffy's clearly not going to be able to control herself here. Which
> leaves responsibility for the relationship to the only adult -- and a
> rather aged adult -- in it: Angel.
Perhaps something is worth noting about Angel's age (340+
if you believe he really spent 100 years in hell).
He was vamped at a pretty young age, and was quite an immature
scoundrel even then. How much "growing up" (in human terms)
could he have done while a vampire? Sure, he's been souled
for nearly 100 years (or 200), but he's generally kept himself
apart from humans all that time (pregnva vapvqragf erirnyrq va
NgF abgjvgufgnaqvag)
His body is aged, but I think it's a fair statement that
emotionally he's really not much older than Buffy herself.
So referring to Angel as a "rather aged adult" in human terms
is a mistake.
Jeff
Scythe Matters
> He was vamped at a pretty young age, and was quite an immature
> scoundrel even then. How much "growing up" (in human terms)
> could he have done while a vampire? Sure, he's been souled
> for nearly 100 years (or 200), but he's generally kept himself
> apart from humans all that time (pregnva vapvqragf erirnyrq va
> NgF abgjvgufgnaqvag)
That's a good point, lbhe nsberzragvbarq vapvqragf va NgF pbagvahvat gb
or abajvgufgnaqvat. ;-)
> His body is aged, but I think it's a fair statement that
> emotionally he's really not much older than Buffy herself.
> So referring to Angel as a "rather aged adult" in human terms
> is a mistake.
I don't know if it's a "mistake," but it's probably more arguable than I
made it out to be. I don't think the evidence supports the idea that
vampires are necessarily emotionally arrested (sometimes they are,
sometimes they aren't), ohg fvapr jr'q unir gb qryir sbejneq va gvzr gb
qvfphff gung, vg'f cebonoyl orfg gb yrnir vg sbe abj. There's no reason
Angel couldn't have grown during his time as Angelus. Certainly he
should understand consequences better than Buffy, which is really the
relevant point.
Arbitrar Of Quality
I just posted something a lot like that in another thread. Huh.
-AOQ
~you said it better, though~
~~and in response to the response below, shoudl his time as Angelus
have helped him "understand" better on a rational level? Maybe. But
really prepare him to cope, on a personal level? Maybe not.~~
One Bit Shy
news:oKidndYDtpqvjYTZ...@rcn.net...
> I usually like the stammering, but I do agree that something was off with
> Willow in this episode. But there's another piece to the Willow puzzle
> here that's worth noting:
>
> ----
>
> Willow: [...] Can I ask you a question? (Buffy nods) When you were with
> Angel and nobody knew about it, did that make it feel, you know, sexier
> somehow?
>
> Buffy: Not really. It's too much pressure. After a while, it even makes
> the fun parts... not so fun.
>
> Willow: (disappointed) Oh.
>
> ----
>
> We've already seen that she might have a slightly problematic relationship
> with conflicts/issues and dramatic solutions thereto. And we've seen that
> she can be a little evasive when it comes to certain things: magic and
> Malcom, for example. Here, we have her reaction to Buffy's "not
> really"...and it's a disappointed one, but also a disbelieving one.
> Because it's clear that, to her, it *is* sexier and more fun to have a Big
> Secret.
This is one of the moments were watching the show feels particularly
voyeuristic to me. Oooh. Willow's into the danger. heh-heh.
It is no less a wonderful moment for that - probably more so. On the fan
side, Willow is already an object of desire. Now she seems a little more
available too.
So I tend to think of that scene as a fan moment as much as it is a
character moment.
Anyway, even if she doesn't believe Buffy about it being sexier, as you
suggest, she still moves forward to tell Buffy about Xander. She *appears*
to really intend to tell her before the interruption. I'm inclined to
accept that she was. So these other sides to Willow that you point to are
also shown to have some serious checks to them. Things like guilt and
difficulty lying impede the draw to her dark side.
>> Also, not a fan of the cemetary scene with Buffy (the "opened my SAT
>> booklet" bit), given how obvious it was that she'd be interrupted
>> and then back out of her revelation.
>
> It doesn't work unless you realize that Buffy is incredibly self-obsessed
> at the moment. It's all about her, her problems, and her feelings. This is
> a moment where she's not being a very good friend to Willow.
That type of awareness of something going on in others I think is also
simply more of a characteristic of Willow than it is of Buffy.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > Angel and nobody knew about it, did that make it feel, you know, sexier
> > somehow?
> >
> > Buffy: Not really. It's too much pressure. After a while, it even makes
> > the fun parts... not so fun.
> >
> > Willow: (disappointed) Oh.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > We've already seen that she might have a slightly problematic relationship
> > with conflicts/issues and dramatic solutions thereto. And we've seen that
> > she can be a little evasive when it comes to certain things: magic and
> > Malcom, for example. Here, we have her reaction to Buffy's "not
> > really"...and it's a disappointed one, but also a disbelieving one.
> > Because it's clear that, to her, it *is* sexier and more fun to have a Big
> > Secret.
>
> This is one of the moments were watching the show feels particularly
> voyeuristic to me. Oooh. Willow's into the danger. heh-heh.
actually willow was trying to broach about her and xander to buffy
she was trying to find a sympathetic issue
hers and xander secret relation
buffys and angels secret relation
and use that to open up
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
One Bit Shy
Another complication to that is that Angel's interest in Buffy has always
been obsessive. Watching her is what brought Angel out of his 100 year
shell. That doesn't help Buffy any. And probably just adds to your base
premise of abusive behavior. But it does help explain why it might take
something more than just being old enough to know better.
OBS
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-CBAEC...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
So you think it was meant as a leading question. Find common ground. So
that Buffy would be sympathetic rather than disappointed when she revealed
Xander?
Or am I not getting what you're saying?
Hmmm. Well I do agree that it was always lead in to telling Buffy, and that
Willow hoped Buffy would agree with the sexy description... and probably in
some fashion meant to make it easier for Willow to reveal about Xander,
though how exactly is a little fuzzy to me.
But even so, it still suggests to me that Willow was turned on by its
secrecy. Why can't both be true?
OBS
Scythe Matters
> It is no less a wonderful moment for that - probably more so. On the fan
> side, Willow is already an object of desire. Now she seems a little more
> available too.
Stop macking on poor little Willow. ;-)
> Anyway, even if she doesn't believe Buffy about it being sexier, as you
> suggest, she still moves forward to tell Buffy about Xander. She *appears*
> to really intend to tell her before the interruption. I'm inclined to
> accept that she was.
I agree, but of course it's one of the many times the show will use the
"interrupted confession" technique. Ohssl nobhg gb pbasrff gb Jvyybj er:
Fcvxr, vagreehcgrq ol Nzl, whfg gb fcrnx bs bar.
> So these other sides to Willow that you point to are
> also shown to have some serious checks to them. Things like guilt and
> difficulty lying impede the draw to her dark side.
Well, guilt is good. Guilt is a check and a balance.
> That type of awareness of something going on in others I think is also
> simply more of a characteristic of Willow than it is of Buffy.
Agreed.
Scythe Matters
> Another complication to that is that Angel's interest in Buffy has always
> been obsessive. Watching her is what brought Angel out of his 100 year
> shell.
Yes, well, this is always an element of their story that, the more one
looks at it, the creepier one finds it. So I try not to look too hard at
it. ;-)
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> It is no less a wonderful moment for that - probably more so. On the fan
>> side, Willow is already an object of desire. Now she seems a little more
>> available too.
>
> Stop macking on poor little Willow. ;-)
Who, me? I'm just your friendly local romatic.
>> Anyway, even if she doesn't believe Buffy about it being sexier, as you
>> suggest, she still moves forward to tell Buffy about Xander. She
>> *appears* to really intend to tell her before the interruption. I'm
>> inclined to accept that she was.
>
> I agree, but of course it's one of the many times the show will use the
> "interrupted confession" technique. Ohssl nobhg gb pbasrff gb Jvyybj er:
> Fcvxr, vagreehcgrq ol Nzl, whfg gb fcrnx bs bar.
Yes.