AOQ Review 3-8: "Lovers Walk"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 8: "Lovers Walk"
(or "About fucking time!")
Writer: Dan Vebber
Director: David Semel
After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
apostrophe-free version of the title.
LW begins with some fluff (and setup for future stories) about SAT
results; Buffy did well. But the real money moment of the teaser is
when Cordelia asks "what kind of moron would ever wanna come back
here?" hinting at where we're going... immediately followed by the
Darkmobile wiping out yet another sign. This could be a lot of fun.
My one complaint is that Spike flopping out of the car looks too much
like someone inside is throwing him out.
So Spike is now reduced to drunkenly staggering through the town
whining about Drusilla. Is the character diminished here? That was my
initial thought, but as the episode played out, I came to remember that
almost as long as we've known Spike he's been a petty individual
prone to losing control of situations. Drusilla has always been his
greatest weakness, to the point of being the absolute center of his
world. After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show ever
tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell of a loser
has been underneath the bravado for quite some time (at least since
S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike. To me, it reads like Joss et al
had one idea for the character originally and then changed direction
midway through S2 once they got a better idea who he was (and Don's
post about the original plans for Spike would support that). Does
anyone have any contradictory evidence?
Given all the X/W stuff we've been seeing lately, it makes sense that
we get a few moments showing what they'd be giving up; Cordelia has
pictures of herself with Xander in her locker, and Oz has a PEZ
dispenser for Willow. Funny, sweet moments, especially the latter,
since it's a very Oz kind of present that only Willow could
appreciate quite so much. This leads into the attempted witchcraft
that inadvertently brings Spike into the story. Xander immediately
figures out what's going on, and refuses to play along. Nice. He at
least realizes that they need to work out their problems themselves
rather than relying on spells, even if he doesn't actually go through
with it. The reference to him having bad luck with these spells is a
bit of character consistency and also reinforces the fact that LW could
not be more different from "Banal, Bothersome, and Bloody Awful" in
how it treats either comedy or love.
Spike's attack on Xander seems more brutal/damaging than what we
usually get on this show. The bits featuring him intimidating Willow
into helping with his spell masterfully hit several moods at once.
Spike really is a comedic figure here so these scenes are a lot of fun
to watch ("what are you staring at?" and of course the classic
chaos demon story), but despite that (or maybe because of it), he's
potentially very dangerous, and we feel that too.
Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition. It's the
hardest I've laughed at BTVS in recent memory. Angel tries to
protect Joyce from the unknown-to-her menace, but doesn't have an
invite, until Buffy shows up to save the day. Classic delivery on
"why don't you come on in?" For once, Joyce behaves very
rationally here given what she knows, and her constant questions about
what's going on and who's a witch make sense, along with giving the
scene more comedic timing.
So Xander and Willow decide to give in to what they know is wrong under
the legal argument of "exemption for impending death situation."
Heh. I'd buy that precedent. This is another one of those episodes,
like "Homecoming," where their scenes manage to seem impossibly
cute regardless of what they're doing to their friends. And this
setup actually managed to let the show get away with using the tired
device of "both significant others catch them making out" without
drawing even an eye-bat from me. Impressive.
Meanwhile Spike is taking a second to cut to the heart of the
Buffy/Angel non-relationship. And then some of Trick's employees
show up. There's a lot going on in this episode, huh? The only
thing that would've made it more fun is if the tricky one himself had
put in an appearance to have a little flippant-off. Ah, well. The
ensuing action sequence is nice, especially the holy water grenades,
and just the chance to see Angel and Buffy fighting together like old
times. And then that takes us directly into probably the best
anti-climax of the series thus far, with "oh, sod the spell. Your
friends are at the factory." Heh.
And then there's the funeral gag where the show teases us with the
death of a main character. I love it when ME shows do that. This had
Mrs. Quality celebrating (hey, it's Cordelia), and me rapidly running
through scenarios under which she could come back as a vampire or
something. Oh, well.
Given how much of a joy the bulk of LW is, the ending sequences are
quite depressing. This isn't a stylistic clash at all; in fact, the
end comes off almost as a penance for all the fun we've been having
with potentially serious matters (and with those sin-laden X/W scenes).
Actually, I kept having fun, since Xander and Cordelia break up at the
end. Rock on. Yeah, I know they could get back together next week,
but if you don't mind, I would like to savor this. And the scene works
even without my particular sentiments, given that we can see it from
either character's perspective. Personally, if I were Cordelia, I
wouldn't forgive Xander either. In its infinite cruelty, the show
holds off on giving a final answer on the exact status of Willow and
the two guys in her life, which is what I really cared about. Well, we
have the DVDs, we don't have to wait a week. So there.
That's not sad enough yet, so we also have a moment with Buffy saying
goodbye to Angel yet again. After all they've been through, will
self-restraint be what finally ends things? Nothing else could. We
shall see. I'd just like to mention "I don't accept that" as
an example of how much pain can be loaded into one line. How can an
actor incorporate such deep sadness and desperation into his delivery
without actually seeming to emote? It's a secret to everyone.
So, LW ends with all our heroes alone and miserable. Yet the episode
throws in one last smile for those who need a hug - Spike singing
along to the radio at the top of his lungs as he rides off into the
sunset. Murdering demon or not, it was good to see you again, mate.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Spike using the factory as his base, and then dismissing the idea
when others suggest it.
- I mentioned it, but it deserves to be quoted. "I caught her on a
park bench, making out with a chaos demon! Have you ever seen a chaos
demon? They're all slime and antlers, they're disgusting. She only
did it to hurt me. So I said 'I'm not putting up with this anymore,'
and she said 'fine!' and I said 'yeah, I've got an unlife, you know!'
and then she said... she
said we could still be friends! God, I'm so unhappy!"
A few short takes, mostly about the end:
You might think that Buffy and Angel would think Spike was too
dangerous to leave alive, or that Spike would get back to
Slayer-bagging if he wanted to impress Drusilla. I guess fighting
vampires together makes people less likely to attack each other.
Very few shows could wring so much humor from a character saying
something like "I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture
her until she likes me again."
Why is Oz not the one playing the song at the end? Contrived, maybe,
but it'd have worked.
Spike's car is still clearly not moving during the interior shots.
I can think of a few episodes that, based on plot content, "should"
be better than "Lovers Walk" (F/H/T and Rev this year, plus a bunch
from S2). But it's all about the execution. LW picks a tone (and
not the obvious one for a breakup episode) and does great things with
it. That's why it's one of the highlights of the series so far.
That, plus Xander and Cordelia break up. About fucking time.
So...
One-sentence summary: Plenty of fun to be had at others' expense.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good
8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent]
jil...@hotmail.com
Trick send his goons out? Sometimes I wonder about these things.
The Mayor says, "So, we have a Spike problem, do we?"
Allan: "He's been spotted back in town." The Mayor's shot is on
target this time, but comes up short. He lets out a frustrated sigh and
goes to retrieve his ball. Allan continues, "And there was an incident
at a magic shop in broad daylight. Police had a hell of a time
covering it up."
(A pointed note, since AOQ has had trouble recognizing these things in
the past "POLICE HAD A HELL OF A TIME COVERING IT UP.")
Mayor Wilkins laughs. "Well, yes, y'know, he was up to all sorts of
shenanigans last year. We had a world of fun trying to guess what he'd
do next."
Allan: "I remember." (leans against the Mayor's desk)
The Mayor whistles at Allan, who immediately stands back up. "But I
guess we're past that now. This year is too important to let a loose
cannon rock the boat."
My notes again: We know that it was almost certainly the Mayor who
ruined Balthazar's plans. It was probably also the Mayor who sunk the
church when The Master tried to open the Hellmouth before. I'm just
guessing. But it's probably a safe assumption. *grin* Buffy's on the
Hellmouth, but as Giles suggest with Faith there perhaps she doesn't
need to be. *coughcough*
And don't go asking for Spike spoilers!
Heheh
Joyce: That's not it. It's just you belong at a, a good old-fashioned
college with, with keg parties and boys, not here with Hellmouths and
vampires.
Buffy: Not really seeing the distinction.
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 8: "Lovers Walk"
> (or "About fucking time!")
> Writer: Dan Vebber
> Director: David Semel
>
> After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> apostrophe-free version of the title.
>
> LW begins with some fluff (and setup for future stories) about SAT
> results; Buffy did well. But the real money moment of the teaser is
> when Cordelia asks "what kind of moron would ever wanna come back
> here?" hinting at where we're going... immediately followed by the
> Darkmobile wiping out yet another sign.
I think it was the same sign. They put it up again after the last time
he ran over it.
>
> Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
> We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
> he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
> story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition.
And Spike likes marshmallows in his hot chocolate.
>
> You might think that Buffy and Angel would think Spike was too
> dangerous to leave alive, or that Spike would get back to
> Slayer-bagging if he wanted to impress Drusilla. I guess fighting
> vampires together makes people less likely to attack each other.
This is about the fourth free pass they've given Spike.
> Why is Oz not the one playing the song at the end? Contrived, maybe,
> but it'd have worked.
Oz is definitely not in the mood to be doing the sort of head banging
rendition of "My Way" that was needed at that point. (And he only plays
guitar, he doesn't sing.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
kenm47
in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
"Buffy: Let's face it: none of us are ever gonna have a
happy, normal relationship.
Xander: We're doomed!
Willow: Yeah!"
--- IRYJ ---
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Zl abgrf ntnva: Jr xabj gung vg jnf nyzbfg pregnvayl gur Znlbe jub
> ehvarq Onygunmne'f cynaf. Vg jnf cebonoyl nyfb gur Znlbe jub fhax gur
> puhepu jura Gur Znfgre gevrq gb bcra gur Uryyzbhgu orsber. V'z whfg
> thrffvat. Ohg vg'f cebonoyl n fnsr nffhzcgvba.
Pnershy. Obgu Onygunmne, naq pbapergr rivqrapr bs gur Znlbe'f ntr ner
shgher riragf.
Rowan Hawthorn
Actually, he does sing backup on occasion. I believe it's in "Inca
Mummy Girl" that you can clearly see him step up to the mic and sing a
couple of lines along with Devon.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
drifter
> In article <1142297292.0...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Zl abgrf ntnva: Jr xabj gung vg jnf nyzbfg pregnvayl gur Znlbe jub
>> ehvarq Onygunmne'f cynaf. Vg jnf cebonoyl nyfb gur Znlbe jub fhax
>> gur puhepu jura Gur Znfgre gevrq gb bcra gur Uryyzbhgu orsber. V'z
>> whfg thrffvat. Ohg vg'f cebonoyl n fnsr nffhzcgvba.
>
> Pnershy. Obgu Onygunmne, naq pbapergr rivqrapr bs gur Znlbe'f ntr ner
> shgher riragf.
Y'know, I *usually* skip all the ROT13 stuff. I've seen all the episodes,
but
I prefer to follow the discussion in the spirit of AOQ as a first timer.
But
I just had to find out what "Pnershy" was.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Opus the Penguin
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Spike using the factory as his base, and then dismissing the
> idea when others suggest it.
> - I mentioned it, but it deserves to be quoted. "I caught her on
> a park bench, making out with a chaos demon! Have you ever seen a
> chaos demon? They're all slime and antlers, they're disgusting.
> She only did it to hurt me. So I said 'I'm not putting up with
> this anymore,' and she said 'fine!' and I said 'yeah, I've got an
> unlife, you know!' and then she said... she
> said we could still be friends! God, I'm so unhappy!"
"You got any of those little marshmallows?" and Joyce saying "Let me
look" was what made the scene complete for me.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
Furrfu. <fzvyrl snpr>
--
Bchf gur Crathva
Gur orfg qnea crathva va nyy bs Hfrarg
Clairel
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Did your DVD not contain the part where the Mayor was the one who had
> Trick send his goons out? Sometimes I wonder about these things.
>
> The Mayor says, "So, we have a Spike problem, do we?"
>
> Allan: "He's been spotted back in town." The Mayor's shot is on
> target this time, but comes up short. He lets out a frustrated sigh and
> goes to retrieve his ball. Allan continues, "And there was an incident
> at a magic shop in broad daylight. Police had a hell of a time
> covering it up."
>
> (A pointed note, since AOQ has had trouble recognizing these things in
> the past "POLICE HAD A HELL OF A TIME COVERING IT UP.")
>
> Mayor Wilkins laughs. "Well, yes, y'know, he was up to all sorts of
> shenanigans last year. We had a world of fun trying to guess what he'd
> do next."
>
> Allan: "I remember." (leans against the Mayor's desk)
>
> The Mayor whistles at Allan, who immediately stands back up. "But I
> guess we're past that now. This year is too important to let a loose
> cannon rock the boat."
>
> My notes again: We know that it was almost certainly the Mayor who
> ruined Balthazar's plans. It was probably also the Mayor who sunk the
> church when The Master tried to open the Hellmouth before.
--Thanks for bringing up the Mayor scene, which was very significant
(and amusing: I loved the stuff about the mixed metaphors, boats,
cannons, etc.). I noticed that AOQ had completely failed to mention
this scene.
But other than that one omission, I felt as if AOQ and I were
completely on the same page as regards this episode. It's the first
time in a long time I've felt that way. After the weirdness of giving
DMP an "Excellent," I never really expected AOQ to appreciate the same
things about an episode that I appreciated. Yet everything he
mentioned about LW was something that I, too, enjoyed.
If anything, AOQ probably likes LW better than I do. It's an episode
that I absolutely adored in the fall of 1998 when it first aired, but
for various reasons I won't go into it's an episode I've come to like
less and less over time.
Not that it doesn't still have its good points. And AOQ did a great
job of hghlighting them (except for the Mayor part).
Clairel
Apteryx
news:1142299274....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> Quick note: I like the episode a lot, BUT I always thought "the kiss"
> in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
> for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
Me too. On the basis of what we know, Cordy's reaction is justified, but on
the basis of what she knows (two close friends kissing when locked in an
abandoned factory and expecting to die) it seems OTT.
This was one of 2 negatives that for a long time had me rating this episode
much lower than I now do. The other was how long it had Xander and Willow in
peril, with Spike and then alone in the factory. You can leave a minor
character in peril that long, and keep up the suspense as to whether they
will surive. And you can put a major character in immediate peril, and the
audience can be swept up and believe in that peril while the adrenalin is
still running. But even after Jenny, if you leave 2 major characters in
peril as long as they do here, you give the audience time to calculate the
odds on whether they really will kill off one of them this early in a
season. And to me, the odds seemed pretty long, and their "peril" started to
get tiresome.
But I got over it, and started to appreciate what the episode did do, rather
than get too bitter over what it failed to do. Every scene with Spike (and
that is a lot) is great. Especially with Joyce, and his "growth" from "She
didn't even care enough to cut off my head, or set me on fire! I mean, is
that too much to ask?" to "I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up,
torture her... until she likes me again."
I still wouldn't agree with AOQ's Excellent rating, but that is just that
the rating that I chose to correspond to his Excellent (or better) is pretty
high, and only 17 episodes currently meet it. For me, this is the 28th best
BtVS episode, 7th best in Season 3 (though all but one of the better
episodes in this season - Band Candy at 22nd - are still to come).
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:1142299274....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> > Quick note: I like the episode a lot, BUT I always thought "the kiss"
> > in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
> > for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
>
> Me too. On the basis of what we know, Cordy's reaction is justified, but on
> the basis of what she knows (two close friends kissing when locked in an
> abandoned factory and expecting to die) it seems OTT.
She's been noticing that Willow and Xander have been acting weird
together for weeks. Now she understands why. She realized that what
she was seeing wasn't just caused by the stress of of the moment, but
that it had been going on for some time.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <MWrRf.6088$JZ1.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:1142299274....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> > > Quick note: I like the episode a lot, BUT I always thought "the kiss"
> > > in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
> > > for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
> >
> > Me too. On the basis of what we know, Cordy's reaction is justified, but on
> > the basis of what she knows (two close friends kissing when locked in an
> > abandoned factory and expecting to die) it seems OTT.
>
> She's been noticing that Willow and Xander have been acting weird
> together for weeks. Now she understands why. She realized that what
> she was seeing wasn't just caused by the stress of of the moment, but
> that it had been going on for some time.
Agreed with that.
But also, there's another reason Cordelia can be expected to be angrier
than the average bear. As painful as I find it to do so, think about
it from her POV. As far as she's concerned, she's dating below her
station. She "knows" that she could do "better" than Xander, and be
"better" than hanging out with Buffy's crowd. Add confusion over the
fact that she's seriously fallen for him, to the point of compromising
her "principles." But in any case, Xander "should" be really really
fucking grateful to have somehow ended up with a girl like her.
Instead he runs into the arms of the one person as freaky as he is?
Hell hath no fury like a cheerleader scorned.
-AOQ
George W Harris
wrote:
:This was one of 2 negatives that for a long time had me rating this episode
:much lower than I now do. The other was how long it had Xander and Willow in
:peril, with Spike and then alone in the factory. You can leave a minor
:character in peril that long, and keep up the suspense as to whether they
:will surive. And you can put a major character in immediate peril, and the
:audience can be swept up and believe in that peril while the adrenalin is
:still running. But even after Jenny, if you leave 2 major characters in
:peril as long as they do here, you give the audience time to calculate the
:odds on whether they really will kill off one of them this early in a
:season. And to me, the odds seemed pretty long, and their "peril" started to
:get tiresome.
The peril wasn't for us, it was for them. It
was to force them to kiss.
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Three, Episode 8: "Lovers Walk"
>(or "About fucking time!")
>Writer: Dan Vebber
>Director: David Semel
>
>After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
>apostrophe-free version of the title.
Like 'Out of Mind, Out of Sight' it is very much intentional. As you
figure, this is the 'every romance comes crashing down' episode.
>LW begins with some fluff (and setup for future stories) about SAT
>results; Buffy did well. But the real money moment of the teaser is
>when Cordelia asks "what kind of moron would ever wanna come back
>here?" hinting at where we're going... immediately followed by the
>Darkmobile wiping out yet another sign. This could be a lot of fun.
>My one complaint is that Spike flopping out of the car looks too much
>like someone inside is throwing him out.
Note that Everyone is impressed with Buffy's combined score, and shocked
at Cordy's, but Willow (without a lot of arguement) is calling herself
Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel for her score, which is probably 100 points
higher than Buffy's. Basically, the SAT consists of 2 scores, the Verbal
and the Math. Perfect for each is 800. Willow is grousing about her
Verbal, but not her Math (where anything off would trigger an even
stronger reaction). Presuming she aced the Math, her score would be 1540
to Buffy's 1430.
>So Spike is now reduced to drunkenly staggering through the town
>whining about Drusilla. Is the character diminished here? That was my
>initial thought, but as the episode played out, I came to remember that
>almost as long as we've known Spike he's been a petty individual
>prone to losing control of situations. Drusilla has always been his
>greatest weakness, to the point of being the absolute center of his
>world. After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show ever
>tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell of a loser
>has been underneath the bravado for quite some time (at least since
>S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike. To me, it reads like Joss et al
>had one idea for the character originally and then changed direction
>midway through S2 once they got a better idea who he was (and Don's
>post about the original plans for Spike would support that). Does
>anyone have any contradictory evidence?
The 'Love's Bitch' speech (which you mention) lays it out about Spike.
Also keep in mind his comments to Buffy in the 'happy meals with feet'
speech in Becoming, about how vampires like to talk big.
>Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
>We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
>he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
>story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition. It's the
>hardest I've laughed at BTVS in recent memory. Angel tries to
>protect Joyce from the unknown-to-her menace, but doesn't have an
>invite, until Buffy shows up to save the day. Classic delivery on
>"why don't you come on in?" For once, Joyce behaves very
>rationally here given what she knows, and her constant questions about
>what's going on and who's a witch make sense, along with giving the
>scene more comedic timing.
One thing a lot of people have commented on is the chemistry between James
Marsters and Kristine Sutherland, not romantic chemistry but acting
chemistry. All the Spike/Joyce scenes just sparkle, going all the way
back to School Hard.
>So Xander and Willow decide to give in to what they know is wrong under
>the legal argument of "exemption for impending death situation."
>Heh. I'd buy that precedent. This is another one of those episodes,
>like "Homecoming," where their scenes manage to seem impossibly
>cute regardless of what they're doing to their friends. And this
>setup actually managed to let the show get away with using the tired
>device of "both significant others catch them making out" without
>drawing even an eye-bat from me. Impressive.
>
>Meanwhile Spike is taking a second to cut to the heart of the
>Buffy/Angel non-relationship.
Spike's 'Love's Bitch' lecture is generally considered one of the
highlight moments of the entire series.
>And then some of Trick's employees
>show up. There's a lot going on in this episode, huh? The only
>thing that would've made it more fun is if the tricky one himself had
>put in an appearance to have a little flippant-off. Ah, well. The
>ensuing action sequence is nice, especially the holy water grenades,
Hereinafter known as the 'Holy Water Handgrenades of Sunnydale'.
>and just the chance to see Angel and Buffy fighting together like old
>times. And then that takes us directly into probably the best
>anti-climax of the series thus far, with "oh, sod the spell. Your
>friends are at the factory." Heh.
>
>And then there's the funeral gag where the show teases us with the
>death of a main character. I love it when ME shows do that. This had
>Mrs. Quality celebrating (hey, it's Cordelia), and me rapidly running
>through scenarios under which she could come back as a vampire or
>something. Oh, well.
As an aside, there was a lot of newsgroup discussion of whether Cordy
could realistically survive that impalement, until it was pointed out that
in real life Charisma Carpenter had survived exactly that. She was
playing at a construction site when she was 5, and slipped and fell on a
jutting piece of iron rebar, impaling herself. If you look at a bikini
shot of Carpenter (there are a lot, she worked as a bikini model before
she got the Malibu Shores gig, which led to the Buffy gig), you can see
the scar, on the right side, just below the breastbone.
>So, LW ends with all our heroes alone and miserable. Yet the episode
>throws in one last smile for those who need a hug - Spike singing
>along to the radio at the top of his lungs as he rides off into the
>sunset. Murdering demon or not, it was good to see you again, mate.
>A few short takes, mostly about the end:
>Why is Oz not the one playing the song at the end? Contrived, maybe,
>but it'd have worked.
Remember that Spike and Dru (and their horribly dysfunctional
relationship) was originally described by Whedon as a "sort of vampire Sid
& Nancy"? (we're bound to have mentioned it back when you did those
episodes at the start of season 2) That was Sid Vicious' cover of My Way
that he was singing along to. Very appropriate.
Next up, my second-lowest rated episode of the entire series (but I'm in a
distinct minority there).
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Apteryx
news:dsample-E794A9...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <MWrRf.6088$JZ1.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142299274....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>> > Quick note: I like the episode a lot, BUT I always thought "the kiss"
>> > in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
>> > for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
>>
>> Me too. On the basis of what we know, Cordy's reaction is justified, but
>> on
>> the basis of what she knows (two close friends kissing when locked in an
>> abandoned factory and expecting to die) it seems OTT.
>
> She's been noticing that Willow and Xander have been acting weird
> together for weeks. Now she understands why. She realized that what
> she was seeing wasn't just caused by the stress of of the moment, but
> that it had been going on for some time.
All she's had a chance to see so far is moments of confusion and clumsiness.
And this is Xander and Willow we are talking about, so nothing out of the
ordinary. While it is to be possible that over a period of hours or days she
might come to put those things together with what she sees in the factory,
it is asking a bit much of the Cordy that we have come to know (and some of
us to love) for her to put the jigsaw together on the spot. And still
unreasonable not to even offer Xander the chance of explaining.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:1142315345....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
I agree that the fact that she is dating down will make her angrier when she
knows she has been cheated on. But I am talking about how quickly she
realises she has been cheated on, and if anything it should slow her
realisation. The one advantage of dating down is that you don't expect your
partner to have any options they might choose over you.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> As an aside, there was a lot of newsgroup discussion of whether Cordy
> could realistically survive that impalement, until it was pointed out that
> in real life Charisma Carpenter had survived exactly that. She was
> playing at a construction site when she was 5, and slipped and fell on a
> jutting piece of iron rebar, impaling herself. If you look at a bikini
> shot of Carpenter (there are a lot, she worked as a bikini model before
> she got the Malibu Shores gig, which led to the Buffy gig), you can see
> the scar, on the right side, just below the breastbone.
No she didn't survive exactly that. Carpenter fell on a piece of rebar
that penetrated an inch or two into her from the front. Cordy's piece
of rebar went in her back and came out her front, a much more serious
wound.
(But still survivable, depending on exactly where it went through.)
Don Sample
>
> Remember that Spike and Dru (and their horribly dysfunctional
> relationship) was originally described by Whedon as a "sort of vampire Sid
> & Nancy"? (we're bound to have mentioned it back when you did those
> episodes at the start of season 2) That was Sid Vicious' cover of My Way
> that he was singing along to. Very appropriate.
Actually it was Gary Oldman's version, from the "Sid and Nancy" movie,
in which he played Sid.
Don Sample
> Next up, my second-lowest rated episode of the entire series (but I'm in a
> distinct minority there).
But you've got company. We're an exclusive club, requiring refined
taste to join.
(It's my least favourite episode though.)
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 8: "Lovers Walk"
Cordelia asks "what kind of moron would ever wanna come back
> here?" hinting at where we're going... immediately followed by the
> Darkmobile wiping out yet another sign. This could be a lot of fun.
The Darkmobile - I'll have to remember that pharse. LOL :->
Ah, you never how much you miss them until they're gone.
> My one complaint is that Spike flopping out of the car looks too much
> like someone inside is throwing him out.
How very true.
> So Spike is now reduced to drunkenly staggering through the town
> whining about Drusilla. Is the character diminished here? That was my
> initial thought, but as the episode played out, I came to remember that
> almost as long as we've known Spike he's been a petty individual
> prone to losing control of situations. Drusilla has always been his
> greatest weakness, to the point of being the absolute center of his
> world. After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show ever
> tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell of a loser
> has been underneath the bravado for quite some time (at least since
> S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike. To me, it reads like Joss et al
> had one idea for the character originally and then changed direction
> midway through S2 once they got a better idea who he was (and Don's
> post about the original plans for Spike would support that). Does
> anyone have any contradictory evidence?
>
> Given all the X/W stuff we've been seeing lately, it makes sense that
> we get a few moments showing what they'd be giving up; Cordelia has
> pictures of herself with Xander in her locker, and Oz has a PEZ
> dispenser for Willow. Funny, sweet moments, especially the latter,
> since it's a very Oz kind of present that only Willow could
> appreciate quite so much.
Something interesting, although perhaps pointless: X has pictures of
C, C has pictures of X, however no Oz in W's and Oz's contents,
unknown. Hmmmmmm. ???
Also a very interesting comment:
Willow: I don't have anything to give you.
Oz: Yeah, you do.
Sort of makes me believe that Oz may have had a clue while, as some
have already suggested, Cordy did not.
This leads into the attempted witchcraft
> that inadvertently brings Spike into the story. Xander immediately
> figures out what's going on, and refuses to play along. Nice. He at
> least realizes that they need to work out their problems themselves
> rather than relying on spells, even if he doesn't actually go through
> with it. The reference to him having bad luck with these spells is a
> bit of character consistency and also reinforces the fact that LW could
> not be more different from "Banal, Bothersome, and Bloody Awful" in
> how it treats either comedy or love.
Two very telling things:
Xander: What are they going to know? That we're friends.
Xander: Clean this place up before they get here and start asking
questions.
While he's reluctant to try Willow's spell, preferring to control the
hormones on his own, he does seem content to go on with the hiding.
A couple of shocks in this ep:
Buffy's a brain!
While she is struggling with her new found future with both Giles and
Joyce, it is Angel that cuts the deepest. His suggestion that she
leave really strikes a chord of emotions with her.
Only a few eps ago, she was more than willing to run away AGAIN, and
now she's reluctant to leave and hurt by Angel's suggestion..
Buffy is still keeping Joyce in the dark about certain aspects of her
life.
The Mayor offering Allen's soul, plus his knowledge of Spike. He, at
this point, was still getting the Hmmm? Look, but is now becoming
interesting in spite of his obvious nonchalant demeanor.
Not a good idea to pass out on the eastern side of a building,
especially if you're a vampire.
MOST SHOCKING OF ALL!!!:
How did they get the very well endowed and very bare wall sculpture
past the FCC?
> Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
> We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
> he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
> story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition. It's the
> hardest I've laughed at BTVS in recent memory.
IMO, one of the finest commercial breaks in Buffy history. The agony,
the pain. The terrible, terrible waiting.
For once, Joyce behaves very
> rationally here given what she knows, and her constant questions about
> what's going on and who's a witch make sense, along with giving the
> scene more comedic timing.
A scene to be topped for sure....... more later. (EBOVA: Fb, ur unf n
gevttre, n fbhy, naq n puvc?)
The
> ensuing action sequence is nice, especially the holy water grenades,
> and just the chance to see Angel and Buffy fighting together like old
> times.
Fight scenes are certainly getting more intricate and elaborate. Loved
the trashcan and the double twist.
And then that takes us directly into probably the best
> anti-climax of the series thus far, with "oh, sod the spell. Your
> friends are at the factory." Heh.
>
> And then there's the funeral gag where the show teases us with the
> death of a main character. I love it when ME shows do that. This had
> Mrs. Quality celebrating (hey, it's Cordelia), and me rapidly running
> through scenarios under which she could come back as a vampire or
> something. Oh, well.
A great twist no matter which side of the Cordy fence you happen to
sit.
> Given how much of a joy the bulk of LW is, the ending sequences are
> quite depressing. Loneliness of Six. Beautiful Beck. Buffy finally realizing that she needs to take some responsibility in the relationship. But will it last.
At this point, I knew that AtS was coming but I still had my doubts as
to DB's acting ability. He just didn't sell the end scene for me. SMG
does however pull it off nicely
Things are not thrown out of whack because of anything supernatural
(although Spike was certainly a catalyst), but very basic, human
everyday attraction. And the only one that walks away happy is the one
who started the whole thing. Very wonderful change from the beginning
of the ep when it was very much the other way around.
Not on my list, though.
shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> apostrophe-free version of the title.
>
Fair enough. For some reason that's always escaped me this is a big
deal for some people.
> LW begins with some fluff (and setup for future stories) about SAT
> results; Buffy did well. But the real money moment of the teaser is
> when Cordelia asks "what kind of moron would ever wanna come back
> here?" hinting at where we're going... immediately followed by the
> Darkmobile wiping out yet another sign. This could be a lot of fun.
> My one complaint is that Spike flopping out of the car looks too much
> like someone inside is throwing him out.
>
And yet almost certainly isn't. Much easier, therefore quicker and
cheaper to let James do it himself. My guess is that that was just the
best take and they took it.
> So Spike is now reduced to drunkenly staggering through the town
> whining about Drusilla. Is the character diminished here? That was my
> initial thought, but as the episode played out, I came to remember that
> almost as long as we've known Spike he's been a petty individual
> prone to losing control of situations. Drusilla has always been his
> greatest weakness, to the point of being the absolute center of his
> world. After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show ever
> tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell of a loser
> has been underneath the bravado for quite some time (at least since
> S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike. To me, it reads like Joss et al
> had one idea for the character originally and then changed direction
> midway through S2 once they got a better idea who he was (and Don's
> post about the original plans for Spike would support that). Does
> anyone have any contradictory evidence?
>
No. I think that it's clear that initially Spike was supposed to be
this real badass villain (recall Angel's description of him) but that
later they had to have Angelus be more so - which made him look a
little less so by comparison. The "happy meals with legs" speech gives
him a kind of softer side, as does his love for Dru. So by the time we
reach this episode this idea - that Spike is basically a fragile
romantic covering with lots of bravado - fits very well.
It's what I'd call a successful retcon in the sense that it is a change
to how the character was orginally conceived but the changes work
(apart from Angel's description which is a little over the top).
> Given all the X/W stuff we've been seeing lately, it makes sense that
> we get a few moments showing what they'd be giving up; Cordelia has
> pictures of herself with Xander in her locker, and Oz has a PEZ
> dispenser for Willow. Funny, sweet moments, especially the latter,
> since it's a very Oz kind of present that only Willow could
> appreciate quite so much. This leads into the attempted witchcraft
> that inadvertently brings Spike into the story. Xander immediately
> figures out what's going on, and refuses to play along. Nice. He at
> least realizes that they need to work out their problems themselves
> rather than relying on spells, even if he doesn't actually go through
> with it. The reference to him having bad luck with these spells is a
> bit of character consistency and also reinforces the fact that LW could
> not be more different from "Banal, Bothersome, and Bloody Awful" in
> how it treats either comedy or love.
>
Both excellent. Not sure if it's worth getting into but I really don't
see that much difference in the humour. It's pretty broad in both.
> Spike's attack on Xander seems more brutal/damaging than what we
> usually get on this show.
Yes and no. One of the things I always liked about the show was that
they didn't just have characters hit over the head, knocked out and
then be completely fine a few minutes later. Giles has to go to
hospital in Revelations and Xander's wound here seems realistic. I like
that BtVS is prepared to show us the consequences (God I seem to have
been typing that word a lot lately!) of violence.
> The bits featuring him intimidating Willow
> into helping with his spell masterfully hit several moods at once.
> Spike really is a comedic figure here so these scenes are a lot of fun
> to watch ("what are you staring at?" and of course the classic
> chaos demon story), but despite that (or maybe because of it), he's
> potentially very dangerous, and we feel that too.
>
Yes. I have my reservations about JM's acting at times (I think he
relies too much on his charisma) but here he's excellent. Flicking from
menacing to funny and back in a line of dialogue is impressive. Of
course the actual dialogue helps - it's well-written. And if I'm not
mistaken that's one of the first times they've done a transition to
vamp-face in a moving shot like that. Early on they had to have the
actor stay still.
> Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
> We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
> he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
> story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition.
OK now I get why you see this as different - you're laughing at things
I didn't even find funny. The scene as a whole raises a smile and the
exchange about mini-marshmallows yes, but not the mere fact of
repetition of the story.
>It's the
> hardest I've laughed at BTVS in recent memory. Angel tries to
> protect Joyce from the unknown-to-her menace, but doesn't have an
> invite, until Buffy shows up to save the day. Classic delivery on
> "why don't you come on in?"
Really? Unremarkable line IMO. I prefer the "that would be me" in
response to "you and who's army?"
>For once, Joyce behaves very
> rationally here given what she knows, and her constant questions about
> what's going on and who's a witch make sense, along with giving the
> scene more comedic timing.
>
To borrow your phrase it's pretty stock joke writing. Effective though.
Sold as you say by the performances.
> So Xander and Willow decide to give in to what they know is wrong under
> the legal argument of "exemption for impending death situation."
> Heh. I'd buy that precedent. This is another one of those episodes,
> like "Homecoming," where their scenes manage to seem impossibly
> cute regardless of what they're doing to their friends. And this
> setup actually managed to let the show get away with using the tired
> device of "both significant others catch them making out" without
> drawing even an eye-bat from me. Impressive.
>
I'm not sure it's that tired - not for *both* to find out at the same
time. Anyhow it works as you say.
> Meanwhile Spike is taking a second to cut to the heart of the
> Buffy/Angel non-relationship.
He's doing more than that. He's also telling you a hell of lot about
his view of the world and therefore who he is. "I may be Love's bitch
but at least I'm man enough to admit it" could be said to sum up Spike
as per your description above.
>And then some of Trick's employees
> show up. There's a lot going on in this episode, huh? The only
> thing that would've made it more fun is if the tricky one himself had
> put in an appearance to have a little flippant-off. Ah, well. The
> ensuing action sequence is nice, especially the holy water grenades,
> and just the chance to see Angel and Buffy fighting together like old
> times. And then that takes us directly into probably the best
> anti-climax of the series thus far, with "oh, sod the spell. Your
> friends are at the factory." Heh.
>
It is of course a cheat to end the episode quickly but they get away
with it.
> And then there's the funeral gag where the show teases us with the
> death of a main character. I love it when ME shows do that. This had
> Mrs. Quality celebrating (hey, it's Cordelia), and me rapidly running
> through scenarios under which she could come back as a vampire or
> something. Oh, well.
>
You're a sick man.
> Given how much of a joy the bulk of LW is, the ending sequences are
> quite depressing. This isn't a stylistic clash at all; in fact, the
> end comes off almost as a penance for all the fun we've been having
> with potentially serious matters (and with those sin-laden X/W scenes).
> Actually, I kept having fun, since Xander and Cordelia break up at the
> end. Rock on. Yeah, I know they could get back together next week,
> but if you don't mind, I would like to savor this.
Sick, sick, sick.
>And the scene works
> even without my particular sentiments, given that we can see it from
> either character's perspective. Personally, if I were Cordelia, I
> wouldn't forgive Xander either. In its infinite cruelty, the show
> holds off on giving a final answer on the exact status of Willow and
> the two guys in her life, which is what I really cared about. Well, we
> have the DVDs, we don't have to wait a week. So there.
>
> That's not sad enough yet, so we also have a moment with Buffy saying
> goodbye to Angel yet again. After all they've been through, will
> self-restraint be what finally ends things? Nothing else could. We
> shall see. I'd just like to mention "I don't accept that" as
> an example of how much pain can be loaded into one line. How can an
> actor incorporate such deep sadness and desperation into his delivery
> without actually seeming to emote? It's a secret to everyone.
>
Hmm, you see great acting where I see lack of expression.
> So, LW ends with all our heroes alone and miserable. Yet the episode
> throws in one last smile for those who need a hug - Spike singing
> along to the radio at the top of his lungs as he rides off into the
> sunset. Murdering demon or not, it was good to see you again, mate.
>
Indeed it's exactly the right note to end on.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Even though I disagree with some of your reasons I agree with your
rating.
Mike Zeares
>
> After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> apostrophe-free version of the title.
Which is apparently the correct version (so the DVD menu screen is
wrong). "Walk" is a verb.
> Spike's attack on Xander seems more brutal/damaging than what we
> usually get on this show. The bits featuring him intimidating Willow
> into helping with his spell masterfully hit several moods at once.
> Spike really is a comedic figure here so these scenes are a lot of fun
> to watch ("what are you staring at?" and of course the classic
> chaos demon story), but despite that (or maybe because of it), he's
> potentially very dangerous, and we feel that too.
Willow's fear is very palpable, and Spike's thread to shove the broken
bottle into her brain is very believable.
> One-sentence summary: Plenty of fun to be had at others' expense.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
The episode had to be heavily rewritten at the last minute when Juliet
wasn't available to play Dru, so the plot is a bit thin in places
(Spike's scene on the bench seems like pure padding). But it also has
some absolutely classic scenes. I love the shot of Spike blasting out
of town, leaving romantic chaos in his wake. And it has one of my
all-time favorite fight scenes. Kung-fu! Pipe-fu! Table-fu! Mop
handle-fu! Ladder-fu! Holy water-fu! Gratuitous head-bashing!
Drive-In Acadamy Award nominations for Spike ("Baby like his supper?")
and Buffy ("I violently dislike you!"). 4 stars. Mike Bob says don't
miss it.
-- Mike Zeares
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1142297292.0...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Zl abgrf ntnva: Jr xabj gung vg jnf nyzbfg pregnvayl gur Znlbe jub
> > ehvarq Onygunmne'f cynaf. Vg jnf cebonoyl nyfb gur Znlbe jub fhax gur
> > puhepu jura Gur Znfgre gevrq gb bcra gur Uryyzbhgu orsber. V'z whfg
> > thrffvat. Ohg vg'f cebonoyl n fnsr nffhzcgvba.
>
> Pnershy. Obgu Onygunmne, naq pbapergr rivqrapr bs gur Znlbe'f ntr ner
> shgher riragf.
Darnit! I completely forgot that.
KenM47
>In article <MWrRf.6088$JZ1.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142299274....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>> > Quick note: I like the episode a lot, BUT I always thought "the kiss"
>> > in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
>> > for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
>>
>> Me too. On the basis of what we know, Cordy's reaction is justified, but on
>> the basis of what she knows (two close friends kissing when locked in an
>> abandoned factory and expecting to die) it seems OTT.
>
>She's been noticing that Willow and Xander have been acting weird
>together for weeks. Now she understands why. She realized that what
>she was seeing wasn't just caused by the stress of of the moment, but
>that it had been going on for some time.
It's bad soap opera for the characters to refuse to talk to each other
about it. Yes, I get that they are still just high school students and
all, but it rang false for me.
Ken (Brooklyn)
eli...@gmail.com
Oh yes. And no. He's the Slayer of Slayers _and_ love's bitch! Which is
why he's so fascinating.
>I'd just like to mention "I don't accept that" as an example of how much pain can be loaded into one line. How can an actor incorporate such deep sadness and desperation into his delivery without actually seeming to emote? It's a secret to everyone.
Loved the way you put that.
kenm47
I agree with her "right" to wraith. I duisagree that somehow you debase
her emotions, almost like she's too good looking to have genuine
feelings. I think ME decided somewhere along the way that they wanted
to show that a very attractive female could move beyond bimbo and be a
fully formed thinking person. Considering where thery started her, I
think they moved her along most of the way credibly.
kenm47
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <24lc12tnpfrau5476...@4ax.com>,
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Remember that Spike and Dru (and their horribly dysfunctional
> > relationship) was originally described by Whedon as a "sort of vampire Sid
> > & Nancy"? (we're bound to have mentioned it back when you did those
> > episodes at the start of season 2) That was Sid Vicious' cover of My Way
> > that he was singing along to. Very appropriate.
>
> Actually it was Gary Oldman's version, from the "Sid and Nancy" movie,
> in which he played Sid.
>
> --
>
OT: Oldham is a great actor. I highly recommend the uncut "Leon, The
Professional" for him and almost everything else in it.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
P.S.:
Vg nyfb frrzf gur K/P oernxhc znl nyfb unir orra qevira ol gur Natry
fcvabss, naq, vs fb, fbzrjung pyhzfvyl qbar gb trg vg bire jvgu.
Ken (Brooklyn)
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> apostrophe-free version of the title.
That's the way it is on the title page of the script.
> Spike's attack on Xander seems more brutal/damaging than what we
> usually get on this show.
Had to look worse than it actually was though. If Spike had really hit
Xander as hard as it looked, the funeral near the end would have been
his.
> And then there's the funeral gag where the show teases us with the
> death of a main character. I love it when ME shows do that. This had
> Mrs. Quality celebrating (hey, it's Cordelia), and me rapidly running
> through scenarios under which she could come back as a vampire or
> something. Oh, well.
Glad you were entertained. Interestingly, Whedon picked the morning of
the day this episode first aired to jump on the Bronze and confirm that
Cordelia would be heading off to LA with _Angel_. Kind of took some of
the air out of the scene.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Yep.
Terry
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> But also, there's another reason Cordelia can be expected to be angrier
> than the average bear. As painful as I find it to do so, think about
> it from her POV. As far as she's concerned, she's dating below her
> station. She "knows" that she could do "better" than Xander, and be
> "better" than hanging out with Buffy's crowd. Add confusion over the
> fact that she's seriously fallen for him, to the point of compromising
> her "principles." But in any case, Xander "should" be really really
> fucking grateful to have somehow ended up with a girl like her.
> Instead he runs into the arms of the one person as freaky as he is?
> Hell hath no fury like a cheerleader scorned.
Um. Let me see.... Angrier than the AVERAGE bear? *cough* *cough*
*cough* Are you KIDDING?! Okay, perhaps I can understand you feeling
that way.
But me, I can see it from her point of view, and what I see is not what
you see.
She gave her heart to Xander. The only time she chose to consider him
beneath her, she really gave up when she chose to go with him instead
of bend to her crowd's will. The reason she is so deeply hurt is that
she never, EVER, while being with him, would have even thought of
another man. She was still enjoying the newness, and believing in the
sincerity he projects. He was the only person for her, that was her
decision. Then she realises that he doesn't feel that way about her.
What hurts a woman most is not the guy fooling around. It's the
shattering of her belief that he loves her. Been there, done that.
It's easy for me to identify with her in this area.
vague disclaimer
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
Nicely spoiled.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
kenm47
I think the point was we all were then, so being spoiled on it now only
equalizes things?
Ken (Brooklyn)
Daniel Damouth
news:1142355741.4...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:
> "Nicely spoiled."
>
> I think the point was we all were then, so being spoiled on it now
> only equalizes things?
I wasn't spoiled then. I avoided spoilers like the plague. Thanks for
retroactively spoiling me!
-Dan Damouth
kenm47
Hey! Don't thank me. I didn't even repeat it in my post!
I see nothing. Nothing! I know nothing. Nothing!
Ken (Brooklyn)
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "Nicely spoiled."
>
> I think the point was we all were then,
So what?
kenm47
A historical footnote how Joss screwed around with the fanbase at
times?
So what, what?
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
And P.S.: Does any newbie not see youknowwho on the packaging of the
Angel DVDs?
I think some spoilers are just because things exist.
Kind of like knowing that Buffy was around for 144 episodes.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
she could die halfway through the series
and then they could discover she has a secret half sister
who is part summers and part white vampire who becomes the new slayer
works like a charmed
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Shuggie
So because we* were all spoiled AOQ has toi be too?
(* actually I wasn't because I didn't know about the Bronze back then)
--
Shuggie
kenm47
1. I did not put that spoiler in my post on this.
2. I doubt that he was from that.
3. The world is not a perfect place (jvgu fuevzc be abg).
Ken (Brooklyn)
Shuggie
>
> Shuggie wrote:
>> kenm47 <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > vague disclaimer wrote:
>> >> In article <1142355741.4...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > "Nicely spoiled."
>> >> >
>> >> > I think the point was we all were then,
>> >>
>> >> So what?
>> >> --
>> >> A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
>> >
>> > A historical footnote how Joss screwed around with the fanbase at
>> > times?
>> >
>> > So what, what?
>> >
>>
>> So because we* were all spoiled AOQ has toi be too?
>>
>> (* actually I wasn't because I didn't know about the Bronze back then)
>>
>
>
> 2. I doubt that he was from that.
>
> 3. The world is not a perfect place (jvgu fuevzc be abg).
>
Sure but you asked "what?" and that was what - ok?
kenm47
Oh! OK, then.
Ken (Brooklyn)
gree...@gmail.com
vague disclaimer wrote:
> Nicely spoiled.
You're kidding, right?
-- Terry
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > Why is Oz not the one playing the song at the end? Contrived, maybe,
> > but it'd have worked.
>
> Oz is definitely not in the mood to be doing the sort of head banging
> rendition of "My Way" that was needed at that point. (And he only plays
> guitar, he doesn't sing.)
No, not the very end. The melancholy acoustic-guitar song that plays
over the montage of people being sad.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > But also, there's another reason Cordelia can be expected to be angrier
> > than the average bear. As painful as I find it to do so, think about
> > it from her POV. As far as she's concerned, she's dating below her
> > station. She "knows" that she could do "better" than Xander, and be
> > "better" than hanging out with Buffy's crowd. Add confusion over the
> > fact that she's seriously fallen for him, to the point of compromising
> > her "principles." But in any case, Xander "should" be really really
> > fucking grateful to have somehow ended up with a girl like her.
> > Instead he runs into the arms of the one person as freaky as he is?
> > Hell hath no fury like a cheerleader scorned.
>
> Um. Let me see.... Angrier than the AVERAGE bear? *cough* *cough*
> *cough* Are you KIDDING?! Okay, perhaps I can understand you feeling
> that way.
>
> But me, I can see it from her point of view, and what I see is not what
> you see.
Why not both?
> She gave her heart to Xander. The only time she chose to consider him
> beneath her, she really gave up when she chose to go with him instead
> of bend to her crowd's will.
I firmly believe that Cordelia is still a steroetypical cheerleader at
heart. We know how important social standing continues to be to her,
and she still makes cracks about all the sacrifices she's had to make
to be with Xander, like he should expect gratitude. And furthermore,
I'd speculate that the fact that he's choosing *Willow* over her rather
than a prom queen would be a particular source of anger. Consider it
the reverse of Willow's reaction in "Innocence" to learning that Xander
would apparently rather be with Cordelia than her - the characters just
have different totem-poles of worthiness.
> The reason she is so deeply hurt is that
> she never, EVER, while being with him, would have even thought of
> another man. She was still enjoying the newness, and believing in the
> sincerity he projects. He was the only person for her, that was her
> decision. Then she realises that he doesn't feel that way about her.
>
> What hurts a woman most is not the guy fooling around. It's the
> shattering of her belief that he loves her. Been there, done that.
> It's easy for me to identify with her in this area.
All true. I think it'd be understandable for just about anyone in this
situation to consider what Xander did to her to be beyond forgiveness.
Cordelia has been wronged in a way that'd hurt anyone, plus she also
has particular biases that make it worse. So she should be expected to
be, well, angrier than the avrerage bear.
So to go back to the original question, I don't see any problem with
the anger, nor do i think that she (or Oz, for that matter)
overreacted,
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> >I'd just like to mention "I don't accept that" as an example of how much pain can be loaded into one line. How can an actor incorporate such deep sadness and desperation into his delivery without actually seeming to emote? It's a secret to everyone.
>
> Loved the way you put that.
Even with the needless Zelda joke?
-AOQ
cry...@panix.com
> eli...@gmail.com wrote:
Especially with the needless Zelda joke. :-D
-Crystal
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > My one complaint is that Spike flopping out of the car looks too much
> > like someone inside is throwing him out.
> >
> And yet almost certainly isn't. Much easier, therefore quicker and
> cheaper to let James do it himself. My guess is that that was just the
> best take and they took it.
Yeah, but it confused me; at first I thought someone else was driving
him back to Sunnydale and dropping him off, so to speak.
> It's what I'd call a successful retcon in the sense that it is a change
> to how the character was orginally conceived but the changes work
> (apart from Angel's description which is a little over the top).
Agreed.
> I like
> that BtVS is prepared to show us the consequences (God I seem to have
> been typing that word a lot lately!) of violence.
Well, there's an episode later this year with that title, so it'll
liekly only get worse.
> > Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
> > We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
> > he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
> > story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition.
>
> OK now I get why you see this as different - you're laughing at things
> I didn't even find funny. The scene as a whole raises a smile and the
> exchange about mini-marshmallows yes, but not the mere fact of
> repetition of the story.
Well, I just really got a kick out of William The Bloody, killer of
Slayers, etc. drunkenly whining about his girlfriend with the chaos
demon, and then it gets even funnier when you see that he'll go through
the whole routine for anyone remotely inclined to listen. Plus, coming
right after a suspenseful moment...
> And then that takes us directly into probably the best
> > anti-climax of the series thus far, with "oh, sod the spell. Your
> > friends are at the factory." Heh.
> >
> It is of course a cheat to end the episode quickly but they get away
> with it.
I wouldn't even go that far. If used sparingly and done well, a good
anti-climax is a thing of comedic beauty.
> You're a sick man.
...
> Hmm, you see great acting where I see lack of expression.
Boreanaz's acting seems to be an acquired taste (that some people don't
acquire at all). I didn't "get" it at first, but I think early S2 I
started digging what he was doing with the understated stuff, like the
scene here. He hasn't been as good with the stuff that requires
"louder" emotions, though. Based on what I've seen, there are two
characters he's ideally suited to play: Angel and Angelus. I wouldn't
cast him as a main lead on my show, but both _Angel_ and _Bones_ seem
to be well-liked, so what do I know?
-AOQ
Shuggie
> cast him as a main lead on my show, but both _Angel_ and _Bones_ seem
> to be well-liked, so what do I know?
>
It's funny you should say that because, based on stuff you've not seen
yet, I think he's got the talent to play a really good side-kick.
William George Ferguson
>Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Boreanaz's acting ... I wouldn't
>> cast him as a main lead on my show, but both _Angel_ and _Bones_ seem
>> to be well-liked, so what do I know?
>>
>
>It's funny you should say that because, based on stuff you've not seen
>yet, I think he's got the talent to play a really good side-kick.
Actually, I would say that he's at his best playing the nominal lead, but
being the straight-man and reaction guy. His own strength in humor is
low-keyed, deadpan, wry, and self-deprecating. Thus far, we've got to see
it in the Buffy/Angel scenes, which generally consist of him reacting off
Buffy (but still getting great line while doing so, "I didn't say 'your
friend.'"). We also saw it in Lie to Me, both in Willow's bedroom and in
the club scene ("They don't know what they're like, how they dress." At
which point one of them walks by dressed exactly like him).
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Arbitrar Of Quality
Arbitrar Of Quality
Grrr. Please try to avoid spoilers like that in the future. Let me
make it clear if it wasn't already: I want to know as little as
possible about future developments. I don't make a distinction for
what was spoiled for people following the backstage stuff, or what was
revealed in the next-episode trailers put together by the studio, or
whatever. I have a unique opportunity to watch the show without
worrying about that stuff (to the point where I put away my
recently-purchased copy of ATS S1 without even looking at the cover, so
as to avoid seeing whether any BTVS characters would cross over). This
approach helped me appreciate that bit in LW, for instance. I don't
care whether or not the netowrk's _Firefly_ ads gave away what was in
the box in "Serenity," it works better as the surprise that it was
intended to be.
PLEASE AVOID SPOILERS.
Thanks.
-AOQ
Michael Ikeda
news:1142371186.7...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:
I suspect that the fact that it was Willow is an additional source
of anger but for an entirely different reason. At this point
Willow is the closest thing Cordelia has to a real best friend.
Xander cheating on her with Willow is thus a double betrayal.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
vague disclaimer
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
Have you even tried to pay attention to what's been going on in these
threads? To AoQ's courteous request not to be spoiled? At the top of
every review he has written?
Guess not.
vague disclaimer
<mair_fheal-BAFCD...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> works like a charmed
Now that was just below the belt!
Arbitrar Of Quality
Eric Hunter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 8: "Lovers Walk"
> So Spike is now reduced to drunkenly staggering through
> the town whining about Drusilla. Is the character diminished
> here? That was my initial thought, but as the episode played
> out, I came to remember that almost as long as we've known
> Spike he's been a petty individual prone to losing control
> of situations. Drusilla has always been his greatest
> weakness, to the point of being the absolute center of his
> world. After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show
> ever tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell
> of a loser has been underneath the bravado for quite some time
> (at least since S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike. To me, it reads
> like Joss et al had one idea for the character originally and
> then changed direction midway through S2 once they got a
> better idea who he was (and Don's post about the original
> plans for Spike would support that). Does anyone have any
> contradictory evidence?
From "School Hard":
---------------------------Block Quote----------------------
Collin: Who are you?
Spike: Spike. You're that Anointed guy. I read about you.
(growls at vampire#2) You've got Slayer problems. That's
a bad piece of luck. Do you know what I find works real
good with Slayers? Killing them.
Collin: Can you?
Spike: A lot faster than Nancy-boy there. Yeah, I did a
couple Slayers in my time. I don't like to brag. (can't keep
a straight face) Who am I kidding? I *love* to brag! There
was this one Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion, and...
He senses someone behind him and turns his head to look
as he morphs into his human guise.
---------------------------End-Block Quote----------------
This is the defining moment for Spike. The Big Bad act
is just an act, and it always has been.
---------------------------Block Quote----------------------
Spike: Drusilla. (goes to her) You shouldn't be walking
around. You're weak.
Drusilla: Look at all the people. Are these nice people?
Spike: We're getting along.
Drusilla: (stares at Collin) This one has power. I could
feel it from the outside.
Spike: Yeah. He's the big noise in these parts. Anointed,
and all that.
Drusilla: (to Collin) Do you like daisies? Hmm? I plant
them, but they always die. Everything I put in the ground
withers and dies. (looks up and off into space) Spike? I'm
cold.
Spike: (puts his jacket around her) I've got you.
Drusilla: I'm a princess.
Spike: That's what you are.
She pricks Spike on the cheek with her fingernail, and
a bead of blood flows out. She reaches up and licks it
off. They move close to kiss but don't, and instead look
over at Collin.
Spike: Me and Dru, we're movin' in. (they separate)
Now. Any of you want to test who's got the biggest
wrinklies 'round here... step on up. (to Collin) I'll do
your Slayer for you. But you keep your flunkies from
tryin' anything behind my back. Deal?
Collin nods. Drusilla bows her head down and puts her
hands to her temples.
Drusilla: I can't see her. The Slayer. I can't see. (looks
back up) It's dark where she is. Kill her. Kill her, Spike.
Kill her for me?
Spike: It's done, baby.
Drusilla: Kill her for princess?
Spike: I'll chop her into messes.
Drusilla: You are my sweet... my little Spike.
---------------------------End-Block Quote----------------
It should be obvious from this where the power lies in
the Spike-Dru relationship. He was an arch-villain
because that is what Dru wanted him to be. If Angelus
hadn't shown up in "Innocence", he would have continued
to be quite an effective one, as he had in the century plus
since he was sired.
Eric.
--
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article
> <mair_fheal-BAFCD...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > works like a charmed
>
> Now that was just below the belt!
i of course have no idea what youre talking about
i was listening to the white album again
dear prudence
wont you come out to play
dear prudence
its a sunny day
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> PLEASE AVOID SPOILERS.
Some people just don't care. Perhaps you should only read replies from
those of us who have proven we'll play by your rules. Just a
suggestion. I don't want you to quit the group in disgust. That
would end my fun early.
-- Mike Zeares (it's all about me)
Terry
> But also, there's another reason Cordelia can be expected to be
> angrier than the average bear.
I'm coming a little late to this discussion, but let's also not forget
something really important here.
Cordy nearly died trying to save Willow and Xander. And what were they
doing? Macking. She got impaled.
I'm thinking that didn't help her mindset much.
Terry
Arbitrar Of Quality
> -- Mike Zeares (it's all about me)
You you you?
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1142323081.4...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> MOST SHOCKING OF ALL!!!:
> How did they get the very well endowed and very bare wall sculpture
> past the FCC?
Since I still haven't noticed that, perhaps you could point me the right
direction? (Then I can tell the FCC myself.)
OBS
cry...@panix.com
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > PLEASE AVOID SPOILERS.
>
> Some people just don't care. Perhaps you should only read
> replies from those of us who have proven we'll play by your
> rules. Just a suggestion. I don't want you to quit the group
> in disgust. That would end my fun early.
Killfiling, especially for repeat offenders, seems like the only
sensible thing to do. I'm not naming names, but I think it's
pretty obvious that one or two people in the discussion aren't
trying very hard to avoid spoilers. I'd killfile them if I were
AOQ.
Of course, some people ARE trying hard and have goofed once or
twice, which is much more understandable, but unfortunate. I
think the only sure way for AOQ to stay unspoiled is to give up
his reviews, and I don't want to see that happen! :-(
For my part, I love these reviews, even though AOQ seems to be
my complete opposite taste-wise! AOQ, I hope you'll stay even
though some spoilers slip through now and then.
-Crystal
hopelessly devoted
When Spike is in the Magic Shop. I have to actually check the tape as
to the conversation, but if you look to the right......every so
slightly. I think there's a closer shot as he peeks around the corner.
Now I'm not a prude, but DAMN!
Jeff Jacoby
[snip]
> MOST SHOCKING OF ALL!!!:
> How did they get the very well endowed and very bare wall sculpture
> past the FCC?
Gur fnzr jnl gurl tbg Naln'f unaq trfgher ol?
Jeff
One Bit Shy
news:1142293026.0...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> LW begins with some fluff (and setup for future stories) about SAT
> results; Buffy did well.
Xander did really, really bad. So bad, one wonders why he even took it.
Kind of the hidden sad moment in the show.
> After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show ever
> tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell of a loser
> has been underneath the bravado for quite some time (at least since
> S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike. To me, it reads like Joss et al
> had one idea for the character originally and then changed direction
> midway through S2 once they got a better idea who he was (and Don's
> post about the original plans for Spike would support that). Does
> anyone have any contradictory evidence?
There's a cliche about characters writing themselves, used a lot in TV
series - and like most cliches has a foundation of truth. Spike's character
demanded follow-up beyond original conception - he wasn't supposed to make
it past midpoint of S2. As I see it, the character revealed itself as it
was played, pushing the writers in certain directions as much as the writers
pushed Spike. So I guess that pretty much agrees with you. It's
interesting to me also because an awful lot of things in BTVS are done for
future payoff - sometimes payoffs years ahead, yet at the same time much is
done kind of on the fly. Making both aspects hang together is a bit of a
trick.
> The bits featuring him intimidating Willow
> into helping with his spell masterfully hit several moods at once.
> Spike really is a comedic figure here so these scenes are a lot of fun
> to watch ("what are you staring at?" and of course the classic
> chaos demon story), but despite that (or maybe because of it), he's
> potentially very dangerous, and we feel that too.
The Spike/Willow scene is my favorite of the show, and a hall-of-fame moment
for the series. Spike has all the great lines and radical on the dime mood
swings, but Willow is pretty cool too. Her facial expressions are
wonderful. Stark terror to bewilderment and bemusement. I love when she
tentatively pats Spike. "There, there."
> Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
> We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
> he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
> story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition. It's the
> hardest I've laughed at BTVS in recent memory. Angel tries to
> protect Joyce from the unknown-to-her menace, but doesn't have an
> invite, until Buffy shows up to save the day. Classic delivery on
> "why don't you come on in?" For once, Joyce behaves very
> rationally here given what she knows, and her constant questions about
> what's going on and who's a witch make sense, along with giving the
> scene more comedic timing.
Another very good scene, though it includes an example of how this episode
frays a little on the edges with repeated viewing. I don't care much for
Spike clowing behind Joyce when Angel is at the door. Inconsequential first
viewing. Annoying upon repeat.
Poor Joyce. It's not enough that Buffy's a slayer with a vampire boyfriend.
Now she finds out Buffy's best friend is a witch. Sweet little Willow a
witch! Poor Joyce. When will it end? (You're right about the comic
timing. Good stuff.)
> So Xander and Willow decide to give in to what they know is wrong under
> the legal argument of "exemption for impending death situation."
> Heh. I'd buy that precedent. This is another one of those episodes,
> like "Homecoming," where their scenes manage to seem impossibly
> cute regardless of what they're doing to their friends. And this
> setup actually managed to let the show get away with using the tired
> device of "both significant others catch them making out" without
> drawing even an eye-bat from me. Impressive.
I liked how Oz "sniffed" her out - which disturbed him.
Cordelia's injury is always shocking to me. Just saying, "I fell," somehow
makes me feel the body shock she's in. (Tied in with memory, 'cause I've
had a couple pretty big falls myself that sent my body into shock.
Fortunately not with impaling.) And then gasping out, "Xander, I can't see
you," as she passes out. (Which people dissing Cordy might want to
remember.)
> Meanwhile Spike is taking a second to cut to the heart of the
> Buffy/Angel non-relationship.
The you're not friends speach is, of course, the big philosophy moment of
the episode, capped with, "I may be love's bitch. But at least I'm man
enought to admit it."
Flashback to Beauty and the Beasts - Mr. Platt (the counseor): "Love
become's your master, and you're just its dog."
So, Buffy's heard that sentiment before. (She was impressed both times.)
Another example of BTVS's obsession with presaging - often near literally.
> That's not sad enough yet, so we also have a moment with Buffy saying
> goodbye to Angel yet again.
I really liked, "But I can't fool myself... or Spike for some reason."
In the end, the most surprising thing may be Spike as the catalyst for
relationship moments with six characters.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Plenty of fun to be had at others' expense.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I'm not going to dwell on this episode. I've done enough of that
recently...
Lovers Walk generally makes a strong immediate impression. It's an easy
show to like. For good reasons. I think it tends to flag a little upon
repeat viewings. The little issues that don't matter first time get a bit
annoying. But even so, the really great scenes and the big Cordy moment
keep it successful. Spike is simply brilliant. An Excellent for me too.
Two in a row for me.
Cheers,
OBS
One Bit Shy
OIC (thanks)
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>test
I give it 740 on the Verbal, but not so good on the Math.
kenm47
Wow! Now that displays a level of self-control I for one did not think
possible in this DVD age.
Congrats!
Ken (Brooklyn)
gree...@gmail.com
then I apologize.
I am now, however, wondering why you spent any time trying to imagine
how Cordelia could come back as a vampire or whatever.
-- Terry
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On 14 Mar 2006 15:31:21 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >test
>
> I give it 740 on the Verbal, but not so good on the Math.
Well, what can I say? It was just too much to deal with. It was like
nothing made
sense anymore. The things that I thought I understood were gone. I
just felt so alone.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> If you really, really, really didn't know about the cast of _Angel_,
> then I apologize.
Okay.
> I am now, however, wondering why you spent any time trying to imagine
> how Cordelia could come back as a vampire or whatever.
Um... because she was apparently dead? I was tring to reconcile her
"death" with the fact that I didn't expect them to write one of the
leads out of the show entirely mid-season (and given all the talk about
Cordelia's "arc," I'm guessing it's far from over). Hence, a few
moments of confused speculation during the brief period in which the
show had faked me out.
-AOQ
Jeff Jacoby
This I'm a little curious about. You've complained before
about stock characterization, cheap (or "broad" humor) and
overused cliches. You didn't find this fake-out to be a
cheap dirty trick, or at least a typical overused soap-opera
cliche?
Jeff
Don Sample
Jeff Jacoby <jjaco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, it was a cheap trick, but it was a cheap trick that *worked*.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> This I'm a little curious about. You've complained before
> about stock characterization, cheap (or "broad" humor) and
> overused cliches. You didn't find this fake-out to be a
> cheap dirty trick, or at least a typical overused soap-opera
> cliche?
I didn't see it as a "dirty trick" so much as a "tease." Cordelia's
eyes slip shut, we see some random funeral, and our charcters wander by
discussing her condition, quickly establishing that she'll be okay.
The whole fake-out lasts maybe twenty seconds. So the show isn't
stringing us along with misleading information for any substantial
period of time, it's just playing a funny little rib on us.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
if they survive all of that
maybe theyll give you a surprise
Scythe Matters
> After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> apostrophe-free version of the title.
Again, you just do *not* get it...
(Sorry. Had to do it. ;-) )
I admit that you've now got me stumped. I thought you'd be more anti-X/W
than you were, which led me to predict that you'd hate this episode. So
I'm officially giving up trying to figure out what you do and don't like.
> LW begins with some fluff (and setup for future stories) about SAT
> results;
"Setup for future stories," perhaps. Or yet another way to revisit the
question of Buffy's destiny, which has been fertile ground for
revisitation. But you gotta love "I'm Cletus, the slack-jawed yokel."
> So Spike is now reduced to drunkenly staggering through the town
> whining about Drusilla. Is the character diminished here? That was my
> initial thought, but as the episode played out, I came to remember that
> almost as long as we've known Spike he's been a petty individual
> prone to losing control of situations. Drusilla has always been his
> greatest weakness, to the point of being the absolute center of his
> world. After seeing "Lovers Walk" I'm baffled that the show ever
> tried to set Spike up as an arch-villain. This broken shell of a loser
> has been underneath the bravado for quite some time (at least since
> S/I); this *is* the "real" Spike.
Yes, yes, and yes again. See? You *can* be insightful! ;-)
Hey, I haven't read the responses yet, but did anyone encourage you to
check the Sunnydale population (on the sign) vs. "School Hard"?
> Given all the X/W stuff we've been seeing lately, it makes sense that
> we get a few moments showing what they'd be giving up; Cordelia has
> pictures of herself with Xander in her locker, and Oz has a PEZ
> dispenser for Willow. Funny, sweet moments, especially the latter,
> since it's a very Oz kind of present that only Willow could
> appreciate quite so much.
I absolutely adore all the Xander/Willow/Cordelia/Oz interactions that
set up the actual plot. Hannigan, in particular, is terrific in this
episode...and after a mixed performance in the previous episode, that's
a good sign. Simultaneous with Buffy acting as (nicely) girly as we've
ever seen her* and Giles doing some fine work as well. The acting in
this episode is of very high quality throughout...especially Hannigan,
Carpenter, and Boreanaz.
[* Something I forgot to mention from the end of "Revelations": note how
primly Buffy is dressed in the final scene with Faith? Costumes
furthering the needs of the characterization, which we don't always see
on this show; nicely done.]
> This leads into the attempted witchcraft
> that inadvertently brings Spike into the story. Xander immediately
> figures out what's going on, and refuses to play along. Nice. He at
> least realizes that they need to work out their problems themselves
> rather than relying on spells, even if he doesn't actually go through
> with it. The reference to him having bad luck with these spells is a
> bit of character consistency and also reinforces the fact that LW could
> not be more different from "Banal, Bothersome, and Bloody Awful" in
> how it treats either comedy or love.
And yet again, we have Willow who -- in response to emotional pain --
tries to make it go away with a dramatic gesture (in this case, yet
another spell) rather than deal with it. Anyone with eyes must recognize
the pattern by now.
> Spike's attack on Xander seems more brutal/damaging than what we
> usually get on this show. The bits featuring him intimidating Willow
> into helping with his spell masterfully hit several moods at once.
> Spike really is a comedic figure here so these scenes are a lot of fun
> to watch ("what are you staring at?" and of course the classic
> chaos demon story), but despite that (or maybe because of it), he's
> potentially very dangerous, and we feel that too.
Yes, and thanks to the aforementioned performance by Hannigan, who
really sells the fear.
> Another oddly funny highlight is the Spike/Joyce/Angel/Buffy sequence.
> We fade to commercial with Spike given the opportunity to do anything
> he wants to Joyce... and come back to hear him telling his chaos demon
> story. Again. Now *that's* humor through repetition. It's the
> hardest I've laughed at BTVS in recent memory. Angel tries to
> protect Joyce from the unknown-to-her menace, but doesn't have an
> invite, until Buffy shows up to save the day. Classic delivery on
> "why don't you come on in?" For once, Joyce behaves very
> rationally here given what she knows, and her constant questions about
> what's going on and who's a witch make sense, along with giving the
> scene more comedic timing.
Agreed. This episode has always made be wonder a bit, since it's written
by someone who only did two episodes of BTVS (you haven't seen the other
one yet, or at least probably not), and yet this one just hits it out of
the park on so many levels. Vebber's doing, Joss' meddling, or both?
I've always suspected that, because it hits so many right and important
character notes, the Hand of Joss is involved in some way. But this may
be unfair to Vebber.
> So Xander and Willow decide to give in to what they know is wrong under
> the legal argument of "exemption for impending death situation."
> Heh. I'd buy that precedent. This is another one of those episodes,
> like "Homecoming," where their scenes manage to seem impossibly
> cute regardless of what they're doing to their friends. And this
> setup actually managed to let the show get away with using the tired
> device of "both significant others catch them making out" without
> drawing even an eye-bat from me. Impressive.
It was good camera work, made better by the reaction shot. We knew Oz
would be stoic, but it was important that Cordelia not dominate the
scene...and she doesn't. Carpenter, again, plays this very well.
> Given how much of a joy the bulk of LW is, the ending sequences are
> quite depressing. This isn't a stylistic clash at all; in fact, the
> end comes off almost as a penance for all the fun we've been having
> with potentially serious matters (and with those sin-laden X/W scenes).
Spike comes to town miserable, helps destroy everyone's happiness, and
leaves joyful. "Evil mastermind" he may not be, at least in the classic
sense, but evil mastermindedness comes in many forms.
> That's not sad enough yet, so we also have a moment with Buffy saying
> goodbye to Angel yet again. After all they've been through, will
> self-restraint be what finally ends things? Nothing else could. We
> shall see. I'd just like to mention "I don't accept that" as
> an example of how much pain can be loaded into one line. How can an
> actor incorporate such deep sadness and desperation into his delivery
> without actually seeming to emote? It's a secret to everyone.
;-)
Looking back on some of what I've been writing about Angel and what he
needs to do, this episode just throws more fuel on the fire. He's being
manipulative throughout; I don't think he's *trying* to be, but he is:
----
Angel: She wants you to get out.
Buffy: Someplace a little less Hellmouthy. (nods) She has a point.
(draws a breath) Y'know, but there are reasons to stay, too.
Angel: What are they?
Buffy: (taken aback) Um... you know, there's my Slayer duties,
obviously. What do you think I should do?
Angel: As a friend, I... (stands up) I think that you should leave.
(goes to the fireplace) This is a good opportunity for you.
He leans against the cold stone, facing away from her. Buffy gets up to
gather her brochures.
Buffy: Yeah. It's not like there's any great thing keeping me here.
She stuffs them into her bag. Angel turns around when he hears the
papers rustling. Buffy zips her bag closed and pulls it onto her
shoulder.
Buffy: Thanks for the advice. It's another perspective to consider.
Angel: Where are you going? You just got here. It's early.
[...]
Buffy: I'm not coming back.
Angel just looks at her.
Buffy: We're not friends. We never were. And I can fool Giles, and I
can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. (shakes her head) Or
Spike, for some reason. What I want from you I can never have. You don't
need me to take care of you anymore. So I'm gonna go.
Angel: I don't accept that.
Buffy: You have to.
Angel: How can...
He takes a step toward her, and she backs away.
Angel: There's gotta be some way we can still see each other.
Buffy: There is: tell me that you don't love me.
Knowing that saying those words would be a lie, Angel instead says
nothing. After a long moment, Buffy turns and goes back into the mansion
and leaves. Angel sits down on the edge of one of the flower beds,
staring sadly out into space.
----
He pushes, he pulls, he pushes, then he pulls again. Once more, Buffy is
the one who attempts to put some emotional distance between them. But as
previous episodes have hinted, it's a very open question whether or not
she is strong enough to actually do this. Or whether she even *wants* to.
A few more quick thoughts:
1) The Xander/Cordelia interaction at her locker is extremely sweet (on
her part; Carpenter giving a *genuinely* warm smile is really quite
something), and we see the real depth of her feelings for him. In the
Buffyverse that usually means that something horrible is going to happen.
2) This episode, even more than most, is loaded with
"Buffy-speak"...that specific set of conversational tricks that Whedon
loves to employ, especially with these characters. It's one of those
"wow, I with *I* had writers working on *my* dialogue" moments, because
it's all exceedingly clever.
3) Pure fun:
----
Xander: Okay, well, let me ask you this: what are they gonna know? That
we're friends. Old, old friends. And maybe we've had one or two
indiscretions, but that's all past. Look. We're just very good friends
who like to hang out, and can I kiss your earlobe?
Willow: No! Well, okay. (jerks away) No! (holds up the dispenser) PEZ!
----
If it helps, I laughed out loud more at this episode than I did at "Band
Candy."
4) More deconstruction of the "forgettyitis" from the Mayor:
----
Mayor Wilkins: I'm just funning. So, we have a Spike problem, do we?
(takes another shot)
Allan: He's been spotted back in town.
The Mayor's shot is on target this time, but comes up short. He lets out
a frustrated sigh and goes to retrieve his ball.
Allan: And there was an incident at a magic shop in broad daylight.
Police had a hell of a time covering it up.
Mayor Wilkins: (drops the ball) (laughs) Well, yes, y'know, he was up
to all sorts of shenanigans last year. We had a world of fun trying to
guess what he'd do next.
Allan: I remember. (leans against the Mayor's desk)
----
Plus, we find out that the Mayor's apparently sold his soul. Again, what
makes this character work is the utterly casual way he says these things.
5) Even more pure fun:
----
Willow: I can't do this anymore, Xander! I mean, this whole 'us' thing
is... bleagh!
----
6) The understated delivery of all time:
----
Spike: She only did it to hurt me. (he takes his hand off of her) So I
said, 'I'm not putting up with this anymore.' And she said, 'Fine!' And
I said, 'Yeah, I've got an unlife, you know!' And then she said... she
said we could still be friends. (leans over and sobs on Willow's
shoulder) God, I'm so unhappy!
Willow: (tentatively pats his knee) There, there.
----
7) I'm as much of a fan of gratuitous cleavage (and overtly gratuitous
bouncing cleavage) as the next guy, but what was *up* with Buffy's
outfit in the heart of the episode?
8) Going back to "Band Candy" for a moment...did Buffy learn anything
about the need to rely on herself from time to time?
----
Buffy: Yeah, either they were taken, or they ran, or maybe...
Cordelia: (points) You're having too many ors! Pick one!
Buffy: I don't know. I need you guys to find Giles, okay?
----
Perhaps not.
Scythe Matters
> I firmly believe that Cordelia is still a steroetypical cheerleader at
> heart.
You do, eh? Well, let no one say you're not stubborn.
I'm adding this one to the billboard, by the way.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Scythe Matters wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> > apostrophe-free version of the title.
>
> Again, you just do *not* get it...
>
> (Sorry. Had to do it. ;-) )
Heehee. Good one.
> I admit that you've now got me stumped. I thought you'd be more anti-X/W
> than you were, which led me to predict that you'd hate this episode. So
> I'm officially giving up trying to figure out what you do and don't like.
Well, we'll all just have to wait and see, I guess. I've found that I
generally tend to like good episodes and dislike bad ones, if that's
any help.
> Hey, I haven't read the responses yet, but did anyone encourage you to
> check the Sunnydale population (on the sign) vs. "School Hard"?
No, you're the first. Is there a good closeup of the sign in LW? I
didn't get a good look at the writing on it at all.
> And yet again, we have Willow who -- in response to emotional pain --
> tries to make it go away with a dramatic gesture (in this case, yet
> another spell) rather than deal with it. Anyone with eyes must recognize
> the pattern by now.
Hadn't thought of that in partiuclar, but good point.
> Looking back on some of what I've been writing about Angel and what he
> needs to do, this episode just throws more fuel on the fire. He's being
> manipulative throughout; I don't think he's *trying* to be, but he is:
Huh. I really like that idea. Yes, Angel behaves quite manipulatively
here, particularly in his first scene, and I can buy it as
unintentional too, since he seems so naive for his age.
Which gets me thinking... I'm not really clear on what Angel was like
pre-Darla, but he seemed young and immature. And since then he's spent
most of his time as either a demon or a mopey guy shunning human
contact. I feel like this serious love thing may be as new or newer to
him than to Buffy. And much like we know that Buffy sees him in a
fetishized, fanficky troo wuv kinda way, well, she's his *reason for
living*. Not a lot of emotional maturity anywhere in this picture.
So it's striking, but makes sense, that Buffy always has to be the more
adult, the one to take stock of what's going on and responsibility for
drawing the boundaries.
> He pushes, he pulls, he pushes, then he pulls again. Once more, Buffy is
> the one who attempts to put some emotional distance between them. But as
> previous episodes have hinted, it's a very open question whether or not
> she is strong enough to actually do this. Or whether she even *wants* to.
An "open" question whether she wants to? Really? I mean, maybe she
wasn't physically pulling her mouth open with her hand to force herself
to get through that speech without cracking, but beyond that, I don't
see much room for doubt.
> A few more quick thoughts:
>
> 1) The Xander/Cordelia interaction at her locker is extremely sweet (on
> her part; Carpenter giving a *genuinely* warm smile is really quite
> something), and we see the real depth of her feelings for him. In the
> Buffyverse that usually means that something horrible is going to happen.
Maybe, but not always immediately. I mean, she'd been pretty obviously
warming to him for a long time, even before "Homecoming" explicit-ized
it.
> If it helps, I laughed out loud more at this episode than I did at "Band
> Candy."
The fact that it's much funnier might have something to with it.
-AOQ
Scythe Matters
> Well, we'll all just have to wait and see, I guess. I've found that I
> generally tend to like good episodes and dislike bad ones, if that's
> any help.
If you say so. ;-)
> No, you're the first. Is there a good closeup of the sign in LW? I
> didn't get a good look at the writing on it at all.
Someone -- probably Don Sample -- must have the numbers, but I don't.
The (very subtle) joke is this: whenever we see a Sunnydale population
expressed on a sign, it has dropped.
>>Looking back on some of what I've been writing about Angel and what he
>>needs to do, this episode just throws more fuel on the fire. He's being
>>manipulative throughout; I don't think he's *trying* to be, but he is:
>
> Huh. I really like that idea. Yes, Angel behaves quite manipulatively
> here, particularly in his first scene, and I can buy it as
> unintentional too, since he seems so naive for his age.
Well you didn't like it when I first expressed it. :-/ It's certainly
made clearer, here...especially the swings from "as a friend" to "I
can't accept that." One has to ask: what, exactly, does he expect to
happen here?
> Which gets me thinking... I'm not really clear on what Angel was like
> pre-Darla, but he seemed young and immature. And since then he's spent
> most of his time as either a demon or a mopey guy shunning human
> contact. I feel like this serious love thing may be as new or newer to
> him than to Buffy. And much like we know that Buffy sees him in a
> fetishized, fanficky troo wuv kinda way, well, she's his *reason for
> living*. Not a lot of emotional maturity anywhere in this picture.
You're not the only one to make that assertion. It both does and doesn't
make sense, but I don't think you've seen enough soulless and ensouled
vampire character development yet to usefully participate in the "do or
don't they emotionally mature" argument, rendering this discussion
either spoilery or unfair (probably both). I'll stop with what I said in
the other subthread: there's evidence for both assertions.
> An "open" question whether she wants to? Really? I mean, maybe she
> wasn't physically pulling her mouth open with her hand to force herself
> to get through that speech without cracking, but beyond that, I don't
> see much room for doubt.
Well, let's look at the (brief) history we have on the subject.
In "Homecoming," she asserts her independence:
----
Buffy: And I'm not going to. They wouldn't understand that you're...
better. A-a-and I'm gonna keep helping you get better. It's just that
everything's different now. I'm a senior. I'm really working harder in
school. (smirks slightly) I'm even thinking about college. A-and I'm
involved with someone.
This causes Angel to turn around and give her a surprised look. Buffy
startles and takes a step back. He reaches out and straightens the lapel
of her leather jacket. Buffy takes it from him, and he lets go. He turns
away again, wincing from his body aches as he does so.
Buffy: His name is Scott. He's a nice, solid guy. He makes me happy...
and that's what I need: someone I can count on.
----
But in "Band Candy," she seems bothered by Angel's suggestion that he
might not need her in the future:
----
Buffy: (gives him a little smile) Yeah, pretty soon, you won't even
need me.
Angel: (nods a little) That'll be better.
Buffy: (unsure how to take that) Yeah.
----
Now in "Revelations," they're all touchy and flirty in the mansion. She
very nearly kisses him before breaking it off at the last moment, though
it's not at all clear that this is what she wants. Her head knows what
has to happen, but her head's not always in control.
----
Angel: (pulls on his shirt) What are we doing?
Buffy: (stops) Training. (quietly) And almost kissing.
Angel looks at her and steps toward her as he buttons his shirt. Buffy
turns to face him.
Buffy: Sorry. It's just... (smiles weakly) old habit. (loses the smile)
Bad, bad habit to be broken.
Angel: It's hard.
Buffy: It's not hard. (with resolve) Cold turkey. That's the key to
quitting.
They both look at each other for a long moment, knowing it's just not
that easy.
Buffy: (weakly and desperately) You think they make a patch for this?
----
Later in the episode, the whole "better if we end it" approach
apparently forgetten, they're seriously making out. She's even more
conflicted afterwards:
----
Angel's mansion. He and Buffy are kissing passionately. The camera
circles around them as they continue kissing. Suddenly Buffy breaks it
off and takes a couple of steps backward and looks away from his face.
Buffy: Oh, God...
Angel: (confused) Buffy...
Buffy: What am I doing? (looks up at him) What are *you* doing?
Angel: (still confused) I don't know.
Buffy: Shame on you!
Angel doesn't know how to respond to that. He puts his hand to his
forehead. Buffy heads over to her things on the couch.
Buffy: Oh, God, I... I don't even know why I came back here.
----
And once more, she steps away from it:
----
Buffy: So... no touching. (nods, looks at their hands) Kinda like us.
----
To her friends, Buffy insists -- rather weakly despite the volume --
that it's over:
----
Buffy: (raising her voice defensively) I'm not going to... (raises her
hand to him) We're not together like that.
Oz: But you were kissing him.
Willow gives Oz a quick look, then looks at Buffy, worried. Buffy thinks
about the implication of Oz's accusation, and looks at Xander.
Buffy: You were spying on me? (steps toward him) What gives you the
right?
Cordelia: What gives you the right to suck face with your demon lover
again?
Buffy: (defensive again) It was an accident.
Xander: What, you just tripped and fell on his lips?
Buffy: It was wrong, okay? I know that, and I know that it can't happen
again. But you guys have to believe me. I would never put you in any
danger. If I thought for a second that Angel was going to hurt anyone...
----
Later, she's a little less strong with the denial:
----
Willow: Can I ask you a question? (Buffy nods) When you were with Angel
and nobody knew about it, did that make it feel, you know, sexier somehow?
Buffy: Not really. It's too much pressure. After a while, it even makes
the fun parts... not so fun.
----
By the end of the episode, she's not even sure where things are:
----
Buffy: (looks down sadly) He's not my boyfriend. (sits next to Xander)
Really, truly, he's... (sighs) I don't know.
----
Now in "Lovers Walk," she's clearer again:
----
Giles: (hesitates for an instant) Are you planning on seeing Angel?
Buffy: Yes. Actually, I am. (Giles averts his eyes) Look, but there's
not gonna be any rash. (realizes how that sounds and gets a look from
Giles) Anywhere. (defensively) Okay. We're, we're friends. That's all
either of us wants. (looks at Giles seriously) Nothing's gonna happen.
----
But where does she go, later in the episode? Right back to Angel, to
fish for...I don't know, some sort of committment to their future (it's
important to note the acting here, not the text of the dialogue):
----
Buffy: (draws a breath) Y'know, but there are reasons to stay, too.
Angel: What are they?
Buffy: (taken aback) Um... you know, there's my Slayer duties,
obviously. What do you think I should do?
Angel: As a friend, I... (stands up) I think that you should leave.
(goes to the fireplace) This is a good opportunity for you.
He leans against the cold stone, facing away from her. Buffy gets up to
gather her brochures.
Buffy: Yeah. It's not like there's any great thing keeping me here.
----
Spike finally clarifies the issue:
----
Spike: (faces them) The last time I looked in on you two, you were
fighting to the death. Now you're back making googly-eyes at each other
like nothing happened. Makes me want to heave. (turns away)
Buffy: I don't know what you're talking about.
Spike: Oh, yeah. You're just friends.
Angel: That's right.
Spike: (faces them) You're *not* friends. You'll never be friends.
You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag,
and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be
friends. (points at his temple) Love isn't brains, children, it's
blood... (clasps his chest) blood screaming inside you to work its will.
Neither Buffy nor Angel want to hear this.
Spike: *I* may be love's bitch, but at least *I'm* man enough to admit
it.
He turns his attention back to finding Willow's ingredients. Buffy's
eyes almost meet Angel's, but she quickly averts them.
----
Despite this, Buffy can't really help herself:
----
Angel bends over in pain and weakness, and Buffy moves to gently support
him.
Spike: (sarcastically) Oh, yeah. You two. Just friends. No danger
there.
----
So then Buffy breaks up with him. Again. But I submit that, especially
based on her back-and-forth history on this point, there's very little
reason to believe that her actions will match her words anytime soon.
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > Well, we'll all just have to wait and see, I guess. I've found that I
> > generally tend to like good episodes and dislike bad ones, if that's
> > any help.
>
> If you say so. ;-)
>
> > No, you're the first. Is there a good closeup of the sign in LW? I
> > didn't get a good look at the writing on it at all.
>
> Someone -- probably Don Sample -- must have the numbers, but I don't.
> The (very subtle) joke is this: whenever we see a Sunnydale population
> expressed on a sign, it has dropped.
The signs in 'School Hard' and 'Lovers Walk' have the same population
number on them: 38,500. (In fact they reused the clip from 'School
Hard' for running over the sign. They didn't bother filming it with a
new sign.)
Clairel
Scythe Matters wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > After some (but not much) thought, I decided to go with the
> > apostrophe-free version of the title.
>
> Again, you just do *not* get it...
>
> (Sorry. Had to do it. ;-) )
>
> I admit that you've now got me stumped. I thought you'd be more anti-X/W
> than you were, which led me to predict that you'd hate this episode. So
> I'm officially giving up trying to figure out what you do and don't like.
--Why would AOQ be against a Willow-Xander pairing? AOQ has been
impatient for developments along those lines since the beginning of
season 2 (or was it the end of season 1?). Anyway it was ever since
Xander first showed some romantic attraction to Willow.
--You don't have to worry about being unfair to Vebber. I wrote to him
once and asked him about scripting LW and "The Zeppo." He told me that
"The Zeppo" was his own stuff, but LW was so thoroughly reworked by
Joss that he didn't feel it was really his (Vebber's) own creation at
all. He only got the writing credit for LW on a technicality.
This isn't the first time I've mentioned the fact on this newsgroup,
but I guess you didn't happen to read the other mentions, or perhaps
you didn't believe me. Anyway, Vebber's an easy guy to find on the
'Net, so write to him and ask him yourself if you want to confirm what
I'm saying.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> >>Looking back on some of what I've been writing about Angel and what he
> >>needs to do, this episode just throws more fuel on the fire. He's being
> >>manipulative throughout; I don't think he's *trying* to be, but he is:
> >
> > Huh. I really like that idea. Yes, Angel behaves quite manipulatively
> > here, particularly in his first scene, and I can buy it as
> > unintentional too, since he seems so naive for his age.
>
> Well you didn't like it when I first expressed it. :-/
When you first expressed it, Angel was mainly growling and
participating in S&M moments. Now he's saying things like... well,
pick your quote from LW.
I said:
> > An "open" question whether she wants to? Really? I mean, maybe she
> > wasn't physically pulling her mouth open with her hand to force herself
> > to get through that speech without cracking, but beyond that, I don't
> > see much room for doubt.
The point there was that it's pretty clear to me that she very much
doesn't want to separate, and is only barely able to make it happen
given that everything except her fledgling sense of responsibility is
loudly objecting. Your long response seems to basically support that.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
news:NrtRf.6108$JZ1.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-E794A9...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <MWrRf.6088$JZ1.1...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> > "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1142299274....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Quick note: I like the episode a lot, BUT I always thought "the kiss"
> >> > in those circumstances was more than quickly forgiveable. I felt bad
> >> > for Cordy and all, but really? Oz? Ditto.
> >>
> >> Me too. On the basis of what we know, Cordy's reaction is justified,
but
> >> on
> >> the basis of what she knows (two close friends kissing when locked in
an
> >> abandoned factory and expecting to die) it seems OTT.
> >
> > She's been noticing that Willow and Xander have been acting weird
> > together for weeks. Now she understands why. She realized that what
> > she was seeing wasn't just caused by the stress of of the moment, but
> > that it had been going on for some time.
>
> All she's had a chance to see so far is moments of confusion and
clumsiness.
> And this is Xander and Willow we are talking about, so nothing out of the
> ordinary. While it is to be possible that over a period of hours or days
she
> might come to put those things together with what she sees in the factory,
> it is asking a bit much of the Cordy that we have come to know (and some
of
> us to love) for her to put the jigsaw together on the spot. And still
> unreasonable not to even offer Xander the chance of explaining.
>
I see the Cordy of this period still being a narcissistic snob. She had
grown a bit since the days of WttH and after her strange coupling with
Xander and affiliation with the Scoobies, but anyone can see that she had
much to overcome to grow as a person if she was meant to "improve much" at
all.
==(Harmony) Watcher==
Scythe Matters
> The signs in 'School Hard' and 'Lovers Walk' have the same population
> number on them: 38,500. (In fact they reused the clip from 'School
> Hard' for running over the sign. They didn't bother filming it with a
> new sign.)
Thanks. Fb V thrff V'z nagvpvcngvat gur cbchyngvba qrpernfr?
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
Gur fvta jr frr va 'Pbairefngvbaf jvgu Qrnq Crbcyr' fubjf n cbchyngvba
bs guvegl-gjb gubhfnaq avar uhaqerq. Qbja svsgl-fvk uhaqerq, be nobhg n
gubhfnaq cre lrne.
MBB
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> ....
>
> Given all the X/W stuff we've been seeing lately, it makes sense that
> we get a few moments showing what they'd be giving up; Cordelia has
> pictures of herself with Xander in her locker, and Oz has a PEZ
> dispenser for Willow. Funny, sweet moments, especially the latter,
> since it's a very Oz kind of present that only Willow could
> appreciate quite so much.
Hmp.
I get the Cordy-thing, it makes sense after Homecoming, and C/X has
always been a worst-possible-moment--relationship (B,B&B, Fish-speech)
etc.
But I found the Oz-scene cheasy fluff. Yes, like you said it's a
fantastic nice scene that would only work with them - but why in this
episode, and so closely to the C-X one? We know how much Oz likes her,
and has since he came on the show, so why wait till now?
> with it. The reference to him having bad luck with these spells is a
> bit of character consistency and also reinforces the fact that LW could
> not be more different from "Banal, Bothersome, and Bloody Awful" in
> how it treats either comedy or love.
Guess that's a matter of opinion, i prefer B,B&B.
But yes, nice that he has learned.
>
> So Xander and Willow decide to give in to what they know is wrong under
> the legal argument of "exemption for impending death situation."
> Heh. I'd buy that precedent. This is another one of those episodes,
> like "Homecoming," where their scenes manage to seem impossibly
> cute regardless of what they're doing to their friends.
Cute? I suppose.
To me, it showed the main flaw of W/X; With Buffy, he would have tried
the impossible to escape. With Cordelia she would have bugged him till
he saved them. With Willow, he just accepts her word believing she is
smarter them him, and waits for Spike to return.
(Not self thinking: great for friendship, catastrophical for a
relation)
>From Willow's side, I don't get why she takes advantage when he is
barely contious. (I usually love Willow, but in W/X scenes she often
lacks her normal niceness)
>
> That, plus Xander and Cordelia break up. About fucking time.
>
Yes, I remember thinking that too at the time. it sounded so good in
theory.... :-(
(noticed you are ahead of me with reviewing so I suppose you know what
I meen)
MBB
John Briggs
The technicality being that he wrote the script :-)
--
John Briggs
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mel
Soooo....have you started Season 4 yet????? :-)
I'm only asking so I know when to start watching again, myself. Right
now I'm watching Firefly to pass the time you are on hiatus.
Mel
PS Sorry about the spoiler, whatever it was.