A Second Look: BTVS S2D4
Arbitrar Of Quality
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 13: "Surprise"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: Michael Lange
This one's never really done it for me. It's just, to yet again quote
my brother as a first-time viewer, "kinda boring." (I'm glad I
managed to keep him watching until the next episode... before mid-S2, he
wasn't a big fan of the show.) It is, though. It's full of dialogue
that feels ponderous and unnatural, and melodrama that doesn't click.
I was fully a fan of the Buffy/Angel relationship at this point OFV,
but more than ever, I remember the cognitive dissonance I felt -
they're about to separate, Buffy's crying, and *I don't care*.
"Surprise" is important simply because it sets up "Innocence," of
course, and has some nice things that I did properly appreciate
originally (Calendar's unexpected half-revealed secret hanging over
the episode, the Buffy/Willow-Willow/Oz sequence on the lawn)... and
some that I didn't (the opening dream sequence is engrossing in a
"Restless" kind of way, Drusilla entertains at her most Dru-ish and on
top of her game for the first time). But as an episode in and of
itself, it's fairly lacking.
Rating: Decent
Season Two, Episode 14: "Innocence"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
Is there anyone who wants to dispute that this is a masterpiece? I
mean, I feel like any praise I heap on it is self-explanatory at this
point. It's a little sad never to be able to feel the same way again;
I want to recapture the same excitement I got about the series after
first watching "Innocence," but one can only really lose one's
virginity once. Still going with the highest rating, just based on
how hard it hit originally. I'll have to add the last beat to my list
of personal favorite moments, which also includes the "I love you too"
bedroom sequence, Boreanaz's performance in general, the Willow/Oz
exchange in the van, and the rocket launcher. But as with "Prophecy
Girl," it's all good, damn near top to bottom. I think it's
interesting that Joss is so proud of coming up with the "vengeance is
a living thing" bit, since it let him tell the story he wanted.
That's the way his creative mind works, I guess - come up with the
symbolism and the twists, and then work backwards and try to plot out
a way for the big moments to happen.
Rating: SUPERLATIVE (up from Excellent)
Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
Director: Bruce Seth Green
This one falls flat for me this time around. It's one of those where
I very quickly forget most of the details. The plot has holes (most
famously, what happened to Oz on night 1?) and hinges too much on
coincidences for my taste (he overhears that conversation just as he's
planning to turn himself in...), Giles acts inexplicably weird, the
werewolf looks awful, the action scenes are kinda boring, and Cain is
extremely boring both as character and metaphor. The Oz reveal is
unexpected, at least. On behalf of my gender, I've never been a fan
of the few times that the show skirts the edges of male-bashing;
that's not what BTVS is about (or shouldn't be, anyway). "Phases"
also has an epidemic of interesting starts leading to dull places - a
potentially interesting look at Xander's "gross emotional problems"
leads to a flat "hmmph, boys" scene, Larry gaining unexpected depth is
mainly used to make weak jokes at Xander's expense, and so on. Still
a fan of the Buffy/Xander stuff, and little else.
Rating: Weak (down from Decent)
Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: James A. Contner
Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
both. The rest is as painful as ever. I'm always tempted to delve
into the degrading aspects of the crowd-of-shrieking-girls parts, but
their main crime for me has always been being several levels beyond
annoying, into the realm of needing to coin new words. Fandom is
occasionally depressing - hey, that's what fandoms are for - but
perhaps never more so than in the fact that BTVS fans were and are so
near-universal in cramming this shit down their throats and begging
Joss and co. for more. Well, fuck you too.
Rating: Bad
General comments on S2D4: I harp on this point a lot, but it's
something that stands out when re-watching BTVS2; at this point in the
'verse's life, the writers hadn't started with the iron-clad
distinctions in dialogue between "Angel" and "Angelus" - that's pretty
strictly an ATS thing. I'm one of the apparently few fans who also
uses the names mostly interchangeably (particularly with the 20th/21st
century version of Evil Angel, who has some differences from pre-
Romania Angelus). I like the blurriness because if they're not in a
fundamental way the same person, what's the point of even having the
story?
Oh, and I don't actually harbor any ill will towards fellow fans who
like different stuff than me. Well... not very much ill will, at
least. You got that, right?
Sorry?
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Season Two, Episode 13: "Surprise"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Michael Lange
this was a very special buffy epsiode
not that kind of special
this was the transition from mon 9pm to tues 8pm
with surprise followed 23 hours later by innocence
> Season Two, Episode 14: "Innocence"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
> first watching "Innocence," but one can only really lose one's
> virginity once. Still going with the highest rating, just based on
japanese gynecologists will dispute that
they do hymen reconstructions
> exchange in the van, and the rocket launcher. But as with "Prophecy
> Girl," it's all good, damn near top to bottom. I think it's
> interesting that Joss is so proud of coming up with the "vengeance is
> a living thing" bit, since it let him tell the story he wanted.
this remains the second stupidest excuse ever used
though not as bad as shrubs latest explanation
why we are in iraq until 21 jan 2009
its a stupid explanation but it works
because real life is full of stupid vindictive crap like this
running around pretending to be justice
just listen to speeches of every clown running for da or attorney general
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> This one falls flat for me this time around. It's one of those where
> I very quickly forget most of the details. The plot has holes (most
> famously, what happened to Oz on night 1?) and hinges too much on
still has one of the funniest one sided telephone conversation on tv
> leads to a flat "hmmph, boys" scene, Larry gaining unexpected depth is
> mainly used to make weak jokes at Xander's expense, and so on. Still
> a fan of the Buffy/Xander stuff, and little else.
it makes the end of season three sadder when larry is killed
also
larry is gay
larry is dead
high school is kinda over
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
> going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
get a humor transplant
i like the little eerp from jenny when giles drags her out of the library
away from xander
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
news:1181024535....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 13: "Surprise"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> This one's never really done it for me. It's just, to yet again quote
> my brother as a first-time viewer, "kinda boring." (I'm glad I
> managed to keep him watching until the next episode... before mid-S2, he
> wasn't a big fan of the show.) It is, though. It's full of dialogue
> that feels ponderous and unnatural, and melodrama that doesn't click.
> I was fully a fan of the Buffy/Angel relationship at this point OFV,
> but more than ever, I remember the cognitive dissonance I felt -
> they're about to separate, Buffy's crying, and *I don't care*.
> "Surprise" is important simply because it sets up "Innocence," of
> course, and has some nice things that I did properly appreciate
> originally (Calendar's unexpected half-revealed secret hanging over
> the episode, the Buffy/Willow-Willow/Oz sequence on the lawn)... and
> some that I didn't (the opening dream sequence is engrossing in a
> "Restless" kind of way, Drusilla entertains at her most Dru-ish and on
> top of her game for the first time). But as an episode in and of
> itself, it's fairly lacking.
> Rating: Decent
But you can't have Innocence without Surprise. Buffy loses her virginity and
Angel his soul in Surprise, even it we don't see the consequences till
Innocence. Certainly Surprise is clunky at times (the whole Angel going away
by ship thing and then not is clunky in clogs), and the characters'
motivations suspect. Even stuff you like, like Jenny's secret, I find
implausible in terms of what we have seen of her. But, like the operative in
the BDM, sometimes you have to do bad things so that others can get the
benefit later. Surprise drags the story and the characters to the required
starting point for Innocence.
Ordinarily I dislike episodes that operate unrealistically to get to a
required starting point for another one. But I feel differently about
Surprise, partly because the pay-off is so good, partly because it does have
fun along the way. For instance, Willow/Oz - "If it helps at all, I'm gonna
say yes ... ... ... Oh, I can't", the dreams, the surprise party, Drusilla
firstly with the flowers all wrong, then with the "Do it again, do it
again!"
So for me even though it's a fading star as the weaknesses grate more and
more, I'd still rate it Excellent. It's my 14th favourite episode, 5th best
in season 2 (last year was 10th and 4th).
> Season Two, Episode 14: "Innocence"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Is there anyone who wants to dispute that this is a masterpiece? I
> mean, I feel like any praise I heap on it is self-explanatory at this
> point. It's a little sad never to be able to feel the same way again;
> I want to recapture the same excitement I got about the series after
> first watching "Innocence," but one can only really lose one's
> virginity once. Still going with the highest rating, just based on
> how hard it hit originally. I'll have to add the last beat to my list
> of personal favorite moments, which also includes the "I love you too"
> bedroom sequence, Boreanaz's performance in general, the Willow/Oz
> exchange in the van, and the rocket launcher. But as with "Prophecy
> Girl," it's all good, damn near top to bottom. I think it's
> interesting that Joss is so proud of coming up with the "vengeance is
> a living thing" bit, since it let him tell the story he wanted.
> That's the way his creative mind works, I guess - come up with the
> symbolism and the twists, and then work backwards and try to plot out
> a way for the big moments to happen.
> Rating: SUPERLATIVE (up from Excellent)
Joss's pride on the vengeance thing seems to be based on it being a chance
to utilise his script fixer skills - in this case fixing a storyline whose
problems (for what he wanted to write now) had been created by himself and
others writing the scripts for earlier episodes. Some of the fixes are a bit
clunky - the curse is really not explained in the sort of way that makes
sense, and of all the people who were temporarily transformed in Halloween,
just Xander seems to have remembered stuff from his Halloween persona
(because only Xander needs to for the plot).
However, these are mere quibbles in the face Innocence hitting all the right
notes in displaying the essence of BtVS. It's my 4th favourite BtVS episode,
2nd best in season 2 (unchanged from a year ago). Last year I don't seem to
have expressed my rating in terms of your rating system. Possibly at the
time I was unsure of exactly where to put the boundary between Superlative
and Excellent, and this was the first serious candidate for the higher
rating. However, I eventually set that boundary between the 5th and 6th best
BtVS episodes (The Body and Restless), so now I can agree with our
Superlative rating for this one.
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> This one falls flat for me this time around. It's one of those where
> I very quickly forget most of the details. The plot has holes (most
> famously, what happened to Oz on night 1?) and hinges too much on
> coincidences for my taste (he overhears that conversation just as he's
> planning to turn himself in...), Giles acts inexplicably weird, the
> werewolf looks awful, the action scenes are kinda boring, and Cain is
> extremely boring both as character and metaphor. The Oz reveal is
> unexpected, at least. On behalf of my gender, I've never been a fan
> of the few times that the show skirts the edges of male-bashing;
> that's not what BTVS is about (or shouldn't be, anyway). "Phases"
> also has an epidemic of interesting starts leading to dull places - a
> potentially interesting look at Xander's "gross emotional problems"
> leads to a flat "hmmph, boys" scene, Larry gaining unexpected depth is
> mainly used to make weak jokes at Xander's expense, and so on. Still
> a fan of the Buffy/Xander stuff, and little else.
> Rating: Weak (down from Decent)
I'm not generally a fan of the BtVS werewolf episodes, but this one's not so
bad. Sure, the actual werewolf scenes are pretty bad, and not just because
of the budget special effects, and Cain is a pretty cardboard villain. But
it does a lot of things well. There's the analogy of Oz as a bloodthirsty
killer tonight, but not killable because it's known he'll be all right in
the morning with Angelus, a bloodthirsty killer now, but whom Buffy hopes
will be all right again in the future. And then there are the details: the
great Oz reveal, the one sided phone conversation - "Is Jordy a werewolf",
and the timing of Buffy inserting her head in the frame to announce that she
is one of the few. It's not great, but it does enough for a low Good for me.
It's my 75th favourite BtVS episode, 15th best in season 2 (last year 73rd
and 14th)
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
> going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
> what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
> both. The rest is as painful as ever. I'm always tempted to delve
> into the degrading aspects of the crowd-of-shrieking-girls parts, but
> their main crime for me has always been being several levels beyond
> annoying, into the realm of needing to coin new words. Fandom is
> occasionally depressing - hey, that's what fandoms are for - but
> perhaps never more so than in the fact that BTVS fans were and are so
> near-universal in cramming this shit down their throats and begging
> Joss and co. for more. Well, fuck you too.
> Rating: Bad
It's good to see you've calmed down a bit about this episode, and the fact
that so many fans love it. And your reaction gives us insight into the
plight of the differently enhumoured. It must be very difficult to watch
this episode if you are not busy laughing.
I know of no case where anyone has been genuinely persuaded by argument that
something is funny, so I will just note two performances:
Robia LaMorte - everything she does in this episode is spot on. Best "eeep"
ever as Giles drags her away from Xander. Jenny looks set to become a major
character :)
Mercedes McNab - not by any means her best performance for ME, but it is I
think the 3rd episode (after The Harvest and OOSOOM) where Harmony makes a
significant appearance, so marks her as someone who may be around for a
while.
BBB is Excellent for me. It is my 12th favourite BtVS episode, 4th best in
season 2. Last year it was 11th and 5th, so a complicated movement going on
there. It's own rating has actually fallen slightly since last year (from
3.18 to 3.20) but takes 4th place in season because Surprise fell more than
that.
--
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
news:1181024535....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 13: "Surprise"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> This one's never really done it for me. It's just, to yet again quote
> my brother as a first-time viewer, "kinda boring."
This episode keeps fooling me. It opens with a real bang. Drusilla
appearing behind Buffy in the dream sequence makes me jump, and then after
an assortment of strangeness, Dru shows up again to shock with her staking
of Angel, and then purring, "Happy Birthday, Buffy." Her voice and manner
is never so perfect as it is then speaking to Buffy.
Well, take a breath. Ignore the brief kissing scene. And then off to one
of the most delightful and witty exchanges of the series as Buffy, Willow &
Oz get wrapped up in love and lust and -er- innocence. BtVS clever dialogue
at its best. I'm also struck by how much the scene plays up Willow's own
innocence, where every titillating thought is awesome to her. "Wow." "I
said 'date'."
Then a little puttering about and onto the truly unexpected scene of Jenny
and Enyos that starts turning our world upside down. Jenny not being who
she pretends to be is quite consistent with the seasonal theme, but
instantly this somehow seems to matter more than the previous hidden
secrets,
suggesting more danger than even Ripper had. This gets nicely strung out as
Jenny skulks about and generally acts suspiciously until she leaps at the
opportunity to send Angel away.
So midway through this episode I'm thinking that, hey, this is a lot better
than I remember it being.... and then the surprise party, which has a whole
bunch of things that seem like they should be really good, but somehow get
played out slow and dull. And then the god-awful good-bye scene on the boat
when I wanted them both to get the hell gone and good riddance. A huge
chasm of dullness that takes all the air out of the episode. Damn.
Dru tries valiantly to recover the mood as she so enjoys her little party.
And the final kissing scene is actually rather tender and appealing, but...
well, no 40 minute episode really should have 3 kissing scenes in it, At
least we get to close wondering what the hell is going on with
Angel...
> Rating: Decent
When I go back and count it up, the episode has way more good than bad.
Some of it really outstanding. It's just got that horrible gap where, as I
think you said, I don't care. It makes rating this a little awkward. The
direct viewing experience probably doesn't deserve more than the Decent you
give it, but I'd still rate it Good, because there is a lot here that stays
with me and is very good indeed.
> Season Two, Episode 14: "Innocence"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> Is there anyone who wants to dispute that this is a masterpiece?
I find myself a little hot and cold on Boreanaz's performance in this.
And... Well, nothing else comes to mind. And since the part of his
performance I'm especially hot about is the "I love you too" scene, that
hardly matters.
> It's a little sad never to be able to feel the same way again;
> I want to recapture the same excitement I got about the series after
> first watching "Innocence," but one can only really lose one's
> virginity once.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/features/article734775.ece
Maybe not the ideal solution for you, but you get the idea.
> Rating: SUPERLATIVE (up from Excellent)
I think it's all been said before. Still sitting at #5 on my all time best
episode list.
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
I'm skipping this here 'cause I have something rather lengthy to say about
it that I'll get to shortly. I will say that this viewing pushes it just
barely into the Good category for me. It's an episode that's slowly
improved for me over time.
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
> going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
> what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
> both.
There's a fair amount of that part.
There's quite a bit around the edges that I enjoy in this episode. Like
Drusilla
ordering Angel to back off of Xander. I keep saying that Dru's the one
who's really in charge. The re-introduction of Amy is quite the pleasure.
Nice performance. Jenny is quite funny. I like Oz punching Xander even
though he's not sure why
he should. I consider it advance payment for the punch Xander will deserve
from Oz in the
future. Then there's the very sweet moment of Buffy remembering and
appreciating Xander not taking advantage of her when he could have. And
so on.
My favorite is most everything Cordelia this episode. This is her big BtVS
moment when she consciously abandons her popular girl place; when she
realizes she actually cares about someone else and acts upon it; when she
joins a circle where she can't be the queen because that role is already
owned by a friggin' superhero. Xander is quite the idiot and jerk through
much of this episode. His scheme for the spell - to dump Cordelia in the
end - has little good to say for it. Petty vindictiveness. But one
suspects that Xander would never have been able to pull that off in the end.
For when things go wrong in an unexpected way, Xander tries persistently to
do the decent thing - including rescuing Cordelia once more. So in spite of
his bumbling and loutish moments, he succeeds in convincing Cordelia that he
cares. Remembering Cordelia from the end of S1 - lonely even though
surrounded by people - that impression is overwhelming to her, and she
responds to it. I think the various scenes supporting this are nicely
handled. Cordy's reaction to the pendant in the bronze. Secretly wearing
that pendant even after breaking up with Xander. The realization that the
spell was really meant for her. And, of course, the dramatic put down of
Harmony when Cordy couldn't abide being mean to the only person around who
truly cares about her. (The Xander effect isn't as good or interesting as
what will later be done with Anya, but it's still interesting. Besides, he
still has to get through his nasty phase before it will work properly for
Anya. Cordelia is probably better suited for that than Anya.)
I find the whole thing really rather touching. It's a scary move for her -
a gamble and an act of faith in others besides herself. A gamble that one
could argue she loses in the end, as the group she joins won't ever really
accept her, while Xander will let her down. But it mostly speaks well for
Cordelia now.
Except for poor Harmony, though. Harmony only did what Cordelia taught her
to do.
> The rest is as painful as ever. I'm always tempted to delve
> into the degrading aspects of the crowd-of-shrieking-girls parts, but
> their main crime for me has always been being several levels beyond
> annoying, into the realm of needing to coin new words.
I think the Keystone Kops portion of the episode is rather poorly done. The
timing is frequently off and the gags often not all that special. It's not
nearly as funny an episode as commonly made out to be. I was startled to
find out, when your original review came around, how popular this episode
was - frequently in the top ten on people's lists. But the degree of your
negative reaction does seem a bit over the top. It's just some silly
slapstick. One thing I do like is the "horror" of Joyce coming on to
Xander - which, evidently, stays with him, as we see in Restless. And then
there's one very under stated gag that I like a lot when Xander "blocks" the
library door, only to have Buffy open it outwards, completely defeating
Xander's effort. Then, later, Xander repeating the same mistake when he
goes through the effort of nailing boards across the basement door, only to
have it opened outwards again, making the boards totally pointless.
> Fandom is
> occasionally depressing - hey, that's what fandoms are for - but
> perhaps never more so than in the fact that BTVS fans were and are so
> near-universal in cramming this shit down their throats and begging
> Joss and co. for more. Well, fuck you too.
And your little dog too!
> Rating: Bad
Decent
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1181024535....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> This one falls flat for me this time around. It's one of those where
> I very quickly forget most of the details. The plot has holes (most
> famously, what happened to Oz on night 1?) and hinges too much on
> coincidences for my taste (he overhears that conversation just as he's
> planning to turn himself in...), Giles acts inexplicably weird, the
> werewolf looks awful, the action scenes are kinda boring, and Cain is
> extremely boring both as character and metaphor. The Oz reveal is
> unexpected, at least. On behalf of my gender, I've never been a fan
> of the few times that the show skirts the edges of male-bashing;
> that's not what BTVS is about (or shouldn't be, anyway). "Phases"
> also has an epidemic of interesting starts leading to dull places - a
> potentially interesting look at Xander's "gross emotional problems"
> leads to a flat "hmmph, boys" scene, Larry gaining unexpected depth is
> mainly used to make weak jokes at Xander's expense, and so on. Still
> a fan of the Buffy/Xander stuff, and little else.
> Rating: Weak (down from Decent)
Men are beasts.
The wolf suit sucks - but is probably better than the later versions.
OK, now that those are out of the way, I find this to be a surprisingly
engaging episode. Very lively dialogue. This episode keeps getting better
for me and has now crept barely into the Good range. Some structural
problems and way over playing the men are beasts angle will probably keep it
from getting much higher.
But on to the important stuff.
Cain: You know, sis, if that thing out there harms anyone, it's going to be
on your pretty little head. I hope you can live with that.
Buffy: I live with that every day.
That's the harshest moment of the episode. Buffy is thinking of the
potential consequences of having failed to kill Angelus. The first example
of that consequence shows up shortly after this conversation.
The primary purpose of this episode is to parallel Angel with Oz. The
ambiguity of the good and the monster within the same man, and especially
the question of whether to kill or not.
It gets very blatant in Phases - to the point where the one true human death
is first attributed to Oz and then to Angel as a kind of comparison. Should
Oz be killed if he was the one responsible? Should Angel be killed if he's
responsible instead? If the answer to the two questions is different, why?
The consequence is the same for each.
The parallels continue - notably with the romance angle - but this is a good
point to step back and realize that we've been playing with this theme for
quite some time. I was re-reading the comments from the original review and
saw discussion about how parallels go back to Lie To Me.
The parallels actually go back to Some Assembly Required. To a very
significant degree, almost every episode this season has replayed the same
story, which I'll call, The Trouble With Killing. Over and over again you
have some sort of human/monster mix with reason to kill and reason to let
live. The distinction seems so simple early on that it barely attracts
notice. But it's there, and it keeps getting harder.
In essence, we've spent a season watching Buffy rehearse her final
confrontation with Angelus/Angel.
SAR - Daryl (Frankenstein) is a monster doing monstrous things, but is not
essentially evil. He didn't ask to have his life taken away from him, to be
turned into a monster, to be saddled with unbearable loneliness. His
yearnings, however inappropriately applied, are decidedly human. Even his
brother would probably agree at the end that he's better off dead - a
decision made especially easy by Daryl consuming himself in his own fire.
But it still doesn't feel much like the slaying of an evil vampire or other
evil demon. This time one wishes there could have been another way. And so
the season theme begins.
Inca Mummy Girl - Ampata, the poor young girl whose life has been stolen in
the name of some higher duty, just wants to have the life she was cheated
out of. Alas, sucking the life out of the living to do it probably can't be
tolerated. (Very vampire like. It's interesting how Ampata parallels both
vampire and slayer in this episode.) Again, a human turned monster, who
can't be entirely blamed for what happens.
Halloween - I really get a kick out of the variation to the theme in this
episode. Here you have a mob of kids turned into deadly monsters. In a
sense, monsters of their own creation, since they're built out of the kids'
costumes. Or to put it another way, Sunnydale is turned into a playground
full of kiddy Angeluses. Turned by some arbitrary event, but retaining the
potential for humanity. This episode also introduces choice. Daryl and
Ampata had to die. This time the kids must live. Willow is quite frantic
about that as she instructs Soldier Boy Xander not to shoot the little
monsters.
Lie To Me - Ford repeats much of Ampata's story by virtue of having his life
unfairly stolen and having others killed so that he may continue. (I like
Ampata's story better.) I had forgotten this aspect when we spoke of Ford
earlier. But this is another reason why Ford's personal decision is so
front and center in this episode. His is this episode's contribution to the
repeating story. The big difference here is Buffy's growing awareness of
the issue. Slaying really isn't just about killing evil demons.
The Dark Age - When sweet human Jenny is turned into a monster, things
suddenly get very personal. For the first time the decision whether to kill
or not gets really difficult. But probably only because it's personal. Was
Jenny really any worse treated than Ampata? There isn't much time to work
that out, and briefly it looks like a simple kill or be killed situation.
Until Willow's inventive solution. Which is wonderful, but complicating
too. You mean there might be a third choice? Kill the monster, save the
human? Hmmm. Or maybe it's just a message to pause before pulling the
trigger. Maybe another way will present itself.
What's My Line (both parts) - Finally we confront Angel himself with the
question of whether he should be suffered to live. Kendra, the outsider,
struggles to understand why it's even a question. Angel is a vampire.
Everybody else assumes she just doesn't understand, though subsequent events
suggest that Kendra's judgment may have been the better reasoned. WML is
sneaky in that the question is presented as if the answer is obvious - of
course Angel should live - while actually delving into gray territory.
Kendra also demonstrates how a simple change in perspective can lead to a
completely opposite answer, without any moral degradation. There isn't a
single clearly right answer.
Ted - Once more into the breach with Ted. Again a similar story, but this
time confronting us with the possibility of choosing wrong, and then really
confusing us with wondering how in the hell once is supposed to know. Now
the kill or not to kill decision is looking really, really difficult. This
also further personalizes things by having the consequences of choosing
(either choice) affecting personal relationships and even Buffy's whole
life. (For a little while, Giles was trying to act alone without a slayer.)
Surprise/Innocence - I don't think I need to go into the Angelus example,
since that's the famed centerpiece of the whole theme. I'll just mention
that Buffy cannot bring herself to kill Angel at the end of Innocence, but
still holds open the possibility of being persuaded too. The decision for
Angelus roughly embodies all of the concepts leading up to it. Including
how hard a decision it is.
Phases - Where we are now, and the clearest most direct parallel to Angelus.
That's 11 out of 15 episodes featuring monster/human ambiguities and a less
than desirable kill/no kill decision. (Reptile Boy might make it 12 of 15,
but the connection is much weaker. It definitely hits on the idea that
people aren't all they seem to be, manifested as the good exterior hiding
the evil within. But there's no death decision involved.) Phases seems to
complete the setup. After this we either get breaks from that story, or
play out the Angelus version of it. (I Only Have Eyes For You plays a
little bit independently with the theme too, but I take it as mostly Angelus
directed in the end.)
I'm not sure if any other stretch of BtVS is so stubbornly repetitive about
such a narrow issue. The odd thing is that I don't think it's all that
clear as a theme until this episode. And even then, you have to consciously
review back to see how pervasive it has been.
And so we explore Buffy the killer. But the question not broached this year
is when the kill or not to kill decision should be applied to The Slayer
herself. I guess Faith will be the stand in for that next season.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free.
.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 13: "Surprise"
Or "Bring Me the Arm of Judge Alfredo Garcia."
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Michael Lange
.
> This one's never really done it for me. It's just, to yet again quote
> my brother as a first-time viewer, "kinda boring." (I'm glad I
> managed to keep him watching until the next episode... before mid-S2, he
> wasn't a big fan of the show.) It is, though. It's full of dialogue
> that feels ponderous and unnatural, and melodrama that doesn't click.
Parts of Surprise is slow-moving. I think the scenes where Buffy explains
her dream could have been shortened, for example, and *maybe* the goodbye
conversation at the docks. And it is mostly just setup for Innocence. But
despite that, Surprise never bores me. On rewatching I might get a little
impatient for Innocence to start, but I'm never bored. Even the most
melodramatic Buffy-Angel scenes click for me; your clickiness may vary, of
course.
Buffy's dream starts things off on a properly ominous note. Like all good
prophecies, it correctly warns that trouble is coming but misleads as to
the nature of that trouble -- Buffy is going to lose Angel, but not
through anything remotely like Dru staking him. The next scene, when
Buffy visits Angel, provides a little counterpoint to the brutal scene in
Innocence that also starts with Buffy visiting a shirtless Angel. This is
perhaps another scene that runs a little slower and longer than necessary,
but it shows us just how serious, indeed obsessive, Buffy and Angel are
getting. Melodramatic, no doubt, but to me it feels right for a teenager
in love for the first time, who fears that it might also be her *only*
time. (Or should I say two teenagers -- Angel's century and a half of
experience with Darla, followed by a century of depression, is probably
worse than having no previous experience at all. Emotionally he's only
about 17 himself.) And the scene is also, dare I say it, pretty darn hot.
They do one of the better variations on the "I should go, no let's kiss
some more" cliche that I've seen. (But there's also a little blunder
when Buffy frets that they never saw Dru's body. Umm, vampires dust,
remember, Buf?)
We also get updates on our other two teen couples. Willow's scene with Oz
is wonderfully sweet, equal to the van conversation in Innocence if that's
not comparing apples and oranges. One detail I liked is the expression
Willow gets when she feels like awkward silence is about to break out,
just before Oz smoothly steps into the gap. (Funny how Oz is so good at
putting Willow at her ease, but you never for a second suspect that he's
some sort of overly smooth Parker-style manipulator.) I think Surprise is
actually the moment when AH reaches her peak at playing Willow. She was
already great, of course, but the slight increase in maturity and
self-confidence she adds around now pushes her to an even greater height
of excellence, one she'll remain at for, oh, another five and a half years
or so.
Xander and Cordelia's scene isn't as special, but still good. I keep
trying to grab Idiot Jed as a screen name whenever I get a new email
account, but it always seems to be taken already. Their bickering reminds
us that Xander is, in fact, involved with someone he kinda hates. So is
Cordelia, of course. This makes the revelation especially painful for
Willow in the next episode.
Random bits I liked: The whole rug-pulling plot twist about Jenny and the
gypsies, of course. Giles's determination that Buffy *will* have a
birthday party, no matter what. (And Jenny's extremely ominous offer of a
ride to the Bronze was apparently part of the plan for the surprise party.
Cute.) All of Spike and Dru's scenes, especially the one with Dalton and
the one where Buffy and Angel are captured. (Though I have trouble buying
the convenient hole to the sewers opened up by the falling TVs.) Buffy's
brief moment of sheer pleasure when she takes in the surprise party and
asks "You guys did all this for me?" Xander's annoyed resignation on
"Willow will fill you in."
During Buffy and Angel's goodbye conversation on the dock, she's anguished
about how long they'll be apart. Who knows if they'll even.... "Even
what?" "Well, if you haven't noticed, someone pretty much always wants us
dead." Buffy's not just worried about Angel's trip with the arm; she's
also keenly aware that in the normal course of Slayerdom, she might well
be dead before Angel returns. As far as she knows, the one chance
she'll ever have at love is about to sail away. There's some solid
foundation to the melodrama. Later, at the end of the fight scene, Angel
drops the box to save Buffy when she's knocked into the water. It's
surely no coincidence that Buffy is at risk of drowning, just like she did
in Prophecy Girl.
The bedroom scene between wet, defeated, miserable Buffy and Angel? That
one's kinda hot too. There's some debate about whether the episode should
have ended when it did, or if it would have been better to reveal Angelus
before the end. I think it's fine the way it is; and putting Angelus at
the end of Surprise would have deprived Innocence of its strong beginning.
Surprise might actually have been the second episode I ever saw. When I
belatedly became a fan and started catching up on old episodes, I realized
I had already seen Dru's party scene, from her dance to the assembly of
the Judge. I wasn't sure about the rest of the episode, though.
Possibly what happened is that I stumbled across a rerun once, halted at
the familiar sound of "Transylvanian Concubine," watched until the
commercial break, then continued on to whatever channel I had been on my
way to. Oh, missed opportunities.
> Rating: Decent
I'd give it a Good, and at least toy with the idea of Excellent.
> Season Two, Episode 14: "Innocence"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
.
> Is there anyone who wants to dispute that this is a masterpiece? I
> mean, I feel like any praise I heap on it is self-explanatory at this
> point.
Definitely agreed.
> how hard it hit originally. I'll have to add the last beat to my list
> of personal favorite moments, which also includes the "I love you too"
> bedroom sequence,
Standout scene in an episode where almost every scene is excellent. That
offhand "Love ya too. I'll call you" was especially (and painfully)
brilliant. Could he possibly have said anything more perfectly designed
to hurt Buffy? Well, maybe the bloody message he left on Enyos's hotel
room wall....
I also loved the scenes between Angel, Dru and Spike. And the final fight
scene is one of my all-time favorites, for the emotions involved rather
than the action (it's actually quite short and simple). Innocence is
obviously the moment when Boreanaz really starts to shine as an actor.
The interesting part is that after playing the gleefully sadistic Angelus
for a while, DB continues to shine when he goes back to playing quietly
brooding Angel. Compare him in a S1 and a S3 episode and the difference
is palpable.
Random lines and images I love: The linoleum line; Angel stepping into the
sunlight in Buffy's dream; "I'm leaning towards blind panic myself": Buffy
just looking at Giles until he understands what happened; the Judge
getting just a tiny bit worried before Buffy fires the missile.
According to AOQ's original review, the scene where Buffy cries in her
bedroom didn't entirely work for him, but it sure does for me. In the
commentary Joss says he wishes that he had used more closeups on SMG in
this scene, but I'm not sure that that could have matched the full shot we
got, with Buffy isolated in the middle of the frame, miserable and alone.
To me she sounds like a girl crying, not a woman; this is the moment when
her childhood really ends. (Or should I say finally finishes ending.)
That's a moment that always brings a tear to my eye ... but not as much as
the conversation with Giles at the end. (Though it's a little distracting
to hear Giles talk about "the months ahead," as if he knew that the
Angelus problem would be resolved in mid-May. A vaguer "days ahead" would
have been better.) In the very last scene, Kristine Sutherland does a
great job with Joyce's lines and facial expressions as she senses Buffy's
misery, has no idea what caused it, but tries to offer comfort anyway.
And whoever picked that old film clip is simply a genius.
> Rating: SUPERLATIVE (up from Excellent)
I want to temper my easy-grading tendencies by being stingy with the
SUPERLATIVES, but if any episode deserves one, it's Innocence.
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
.
> This one falls flat for me this time around. It's one of those where
> I very quickly forget most of the details.
Phases neither ignores nor tries to match the episode before it, which was
a wise decision. It's not one of the most significant episodes, but it
does have some really good moments -- mostly concerned with the fallout
from Innocence rather than with the supposed A-storyline. The funeral
parlor scene is the best of these, of course, but I really like Buffy and
Willow's conversation near the beginning. (Also good for Willow's first
"meow.")
> The plot has holes (most
> famously, what happened to Oz on night 1?) and hinges too much on
> coincidences for my taste (he overhears that conversation just as he's
> planning to turn himself in...), Giles acts inexplicably weird,
Especially when laughing at Xander's dumb "moon pie" joke. But I can buy
his enthusiasm about finding a real werewolf, though it does seem a little
insensitive to be *openly* enthusiastic so soon after Innocence. You'd
think Giles would know that a full moon occurs every 29 days, not 31.
I do love that scene in the funeral parlor. (Even despite the callbacks
to TP and IRYJ, of all episodes, as examples of Buffy saving her friends'
lives.) Among other things it shows us an early example of Xander as
Insightful Man, a role he doesn't really grow into until season 5. Buffy
is in such obvious need of comfort that for once Xander doesn't let his
own feelings get in the way of providing it. "Don't let him get to you.
He's not the same guy you knew," Xander says, validating Buffy's earlier
love for the man who has since become such a monster. The confusing but
intense look they share after that is open to a lot of interpretations.
Xander is of course attracted, but what about Buffy? (Rhetorical question
in lieu of offering a view of my own.) This scene also helps lead us to
Xander's Big Lie, whether you think the Lie was mainly an impulsive act to
help Buffy (as I do) or mainly a cynical attempt to get Angel killed, born
of personal hatred and jealousy (as many people see it).
> Rating: Weak (down from Decent)
I'd still give it a Decent, and actually a pretty high one. Even if it
wasn't for the Angel-related stuff, Phases would still be saved by
Willow's part, and Oz's part when he's not in werewolf form.
> Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: James A. Contner
.
> Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
> going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
> what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
> both. The rest is as painful as ever.
Well, I think it has enough going for it to save it from a Bad or Weak
rating too. Most of BBB is pretty damn funny. I'll agree that the final
stages of mob hysteria that the spell-stricken reach are a little
over-the-top, but I still find them pretty funny when I'm in the right
mood. Judging from AOQ's first review, these OTT parts are almost
entirely responsible for his hostile reaction. Even if I agreed with him
about those parts, they wouldn't be enough to overshadow the rest of it.
And even the OTT parts contain some pretty good moments, like Angelus
grabbing Xander ("Works in theory" is such an Angelus-like taunt) only to
have Drusilla rescue him. And I really like some of the more subtle
moments earlier: the Buffy-Xander conversation in the teaser; Xander's
sudden hope when Buffy comes on to him and crushing disappointment when he
realizes what's really happening; the slo-mo anti-strut down the school
hallway; Xander's and Cordy's reactions when Joyce comes on to him; Oz's
awkward explanation after he punches Xander; the two final scenes; and all
of Jenny's part -- Apteryx is entirely right about her performance.
Speaking of which, I also like the early scene in the hallway, when Jenny
tries to approach Giles. Buffy freezes her out, Giles follows Buffy's
lead, and Xander and Willow just look at Jenny, silently making it clear
that they aren't going to take her side either. This brief scene is not
only played very well but helps to set the stage for a lot of what happens
in Passion.
Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She stands up for
herself, which is good; but it's *all* about herself, not about defending
Xander or opposing sheepdom on principle.
> Rating: Bad
Pssh. I no longer laugh as hard as I did when I first saw BBB, but I'd
still call it Decent at least. And it's certainly way better than SAR, RB
or BE. In my opinion, *all* the weakest episodes in S2, every single one,
fall in the first half of the season.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
William George Ferguson
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1181024535....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free.
>
>> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
>> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
>> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>Men are beasts.
>
>The wolf suit sucks - but is probably better than the later versions.
>
>OK, now that those are out of the way, I find this to be a surprisingly
>engaging episode. Very lively dialogue. This episode keeps getting better
>for me and has now crept barely into the Good range. Some structural
>problems and way over playing the men are beasts angle will probably keep it
>from getting much higher.
>
>But on to the important stuff.
>
>Cain: You know, sis, if that thing out there harms anyone, it's going to be
>on your pretty little head. I hope you can live with that.
>Buffy: I live with that every day.
>
>That's the harshest moment of the episode. Buffy is thinking of the
>potential consequences of having failed to kill Angelus. The first example
>of that consequence shows up shortly after this conversation.
>
>The primary purpose of this episode is to parallel Angel with Oz. The
>ambiguity of the good and the monster within the same man, and especially
>the question of whether to kill or not.
>
>It gets very blatant in Phases - to the point where the one true human death
>is first attributed to Oz and then to Angel as a kind of comparison. Should
>Oz be killed if he was the one responsible? Should Angel be killed if he's
>responsible instead? If the answer to the two questions is different, why?
>The consequence is the same for each.
To some extent it comes down to choices, not just Buffy's but the
human/monster's.
>The parallels actually go back to Some Assembly Required. To a very
>significant degree, almost every episode this season has replayed the same
>story, which I'll call, The Trouble With Killing. Over and over again you
>have some sort of human/monster mix with reason to kill and reason to let
>live. The distinction seems so simple early on that it barely attracts
>notice. But it's there, and it keeps getting harder.
>
>In essence, we've spent a season watching Buffy rehearse her final
>confrontation with Angelus/Angel.
>
>SAR - Daryl (Frankenstein) is a monster doing monstrous things, but is not
>essentially evil. He didn't ask to have his life taken away from him, to be
>turned into a monster, to be saddled with unbearable loneliness. His
>yearnings, however inappropriately applied, are decidedly human. Even his
>brother would probably agree at the end that he's better off dead - a
>decision made especially easy by Daryl consuming himself in his own fire.
>But it still doesn't feel much like the slaying of an evil vampire or other
>evil demon. This time one wishes there could have been another way. And so
>the season theme begins.
Darryl doesn't have much he can do in the way of choices, even his (2nd)
death wasn't really his choice.
>Inca Mummy Girl - Ampata, the poor young girl whose life has been stolen in
>the name of some higher duty, just wants to have the life she was cheated
>out of. Alas, sucking the life out of the living to do it probably can't be
>tolerated. (Very vampire like. It's interesting how Ampata parallels both
>vampire and slayer in this episode.) Again, a human turned monster, who
>can't be entirely blamed for what happens.
Again, Ampata doesn't have much choice room. She can't choose not to suck
the life out of people, and she didn't choose to become a life-sucking
monster. Her only real choice is whether to end her own existence, either
through her own efforts or by committing 'suicide by cop'. You can make an
argument that at the end, when it was down to killing Xander or being
destroyed herself, she took the 'suicide by cop' option.
>
>Lie To Me - Ford repeats much of Ampata's story by virtue of having his life
>unfairly stolen and having others killed so that he may continue. (I like
>Ampata's story better.) I had forgotten this aspect when we spoke of Ford
>earlier. But this is another reason why Ford's personal decision is so
>front and center in this episode. His is this episode's contribution to the
>repeating story. The big difference here is Buffy's growing awareness of
>the issue. Slaying really isn't just about killing evil demons.
A big difference with Ford is that while he didn't choose to have the brain
tumor, he did choose deliberately to sacrifice friends to get past it.
Unlike Darryl and Ampata, this wasn't an intrinsic part of his
imposed-from-the-outside problem, it was a conscious choice he made. As
Buffy told him (making this part of the theme explicit) "You have a choice.
You don't have a good choice, but you have a choice." Ford chose to be a
monster.
>Phases - Where we are now, and the clearest most direct parallel to Angelus.
And again, Oz has choices. He tries to restrain himslef during the full
moon, he tries to turn himself over to scoobies. He doesn't want to die,
but he doesn't want to be monstrous.
>That's 11 out of 15 episodes featuring monster/human ambiguities and a less
>than desirable kill/no kill decision. (Reptile Boy might make it 12 of 15,
>but the connection is much weaker. It definitely hits on the idea that
>people aren't all they seem to be, manifested as the good exterior hiding
>the evil within. But there's no death decision involved.) Phases seems to
>complete the setup. After this we either get breaks from that story, or
>play out the Angelus version of it. (I Only Have Eyes For You plays a
>little bit independently with the theme too, but I take it as mostly Angelus
>directed in the end.)
IOHEFY is not mostly Angelus directed, it is entirely Buffy directed. There
is a very good reason why the ghost chooses Buffy to play the killer and
Angel to play the victim. The entire point of IOHEFY is that before Buffy
can do anything effectively, she first has to forgive herself.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Michael Ikeda
news:l4vg63hgo3ndi2d4v...@4ax.com:
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:06:35 -0400, "One Bit Shy"
> <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1181024535....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free.
>>
>>> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
>>> Writers: Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
>>> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
>>SAR - Daryl (Frankenstein) is a monster doing monstrous things,
>>but is not essentially evil. He didn't ask to have his life
>>taken away from him, to be turned into a monster, to be saddled
>>with unbearable loneliness. His yearnings, however
>>inappropriately applied, are decidedly human. Even his brother
>>would probably agree at the end that he's better off dead - a
>>decision made especially easy by Daryl consuming himself in his
>>own fire. But it still doesn't feel much like the slaying of an
>>evil vampire or other evil demon. This time one wishes there
>>could have been another way. And so the season theme begins.
>
> Darryl doesn't have much he can do in the way of choices, even
> his (2nd) death wasn't really his choice.
>
I wouldn't say he had particularly good choices.
But it's still his choice to stay hidden away and his choice to have
Cordelia killed to supply the last parts for his "bride".
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
One Bit Shy
news:136gv2m...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free.
>
> .
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Two, Episode 13: "Surprise"
> The bedroom scene between wet, defeated, miserable Buffy and Angel? That
> one's kinda hot too. There's some debate about whether the episode should
> have ended when it did, or if it would have been better to reveal Angelus
> before the end. I think it's fine the way it is; and putting Angelus at
> the end of Surprise would have deprived Innocence of its strong beginning.
More importantly to me is that going further would have walked over the
ending of Surprise. Buffy just had her first sex and I think it's important
to be pondering the implications of that and limit the Angel moment to
wondering what the sex has prompted in him. Rushing right on to Angelus too
quickly leaves that behind.
>> Season Two, Episode 14: "Innocence"
> Standout scene in an episode where almost every scene is excellent. That
> offhand "Love ya too. I'll call you" was especially (and painfully)
> brilliant.
I get a little overwhelmed sometimes by how much is great in this episode.
It's so packed. It oddly leads me to dwell on (relatively) smaller scenes
like when they're unpacking the rocket launcher. Short and a bit of a
bridge, yet tossed into that rush to prepare for The Judge is Giles deciding
to sever his relationship with Jenny and stand by Buffy instead, followed by
one look from Buffy telling Giles and us that she knows what a big thing he
just did. But there's no time to deal further with such matters when the
end of the world is nigh.
Giles and Jenny break up. Willow catches Xander with Cordelia. Willow and
Oz magically connect. And the seeds of division between Spike and Angelus
are already sown. How the hell does this episode handle all of this -
brilliantly - while still telling the overwhelming Buffy/Angel story and,
oh, by the way, save the world too? There are a few other times that BtVS
packs episodes to great effect - Prophecy Girl and Seeing Red come quickly
to mind - but none so much or so well as Innoncence.
Anyway, my personal favorite scene is Buffy's determined stride through the
school to confront Jenny. "What do you know?" And then the final
confirmation that in the most unimaginably perverse fashion, Buffy is
responsible for creating Angelus. Something about the particular mix of
feelings that run through the scene gives me a chill every time I see it.
(Several chills actually.)
>> Season Two, Episode 15: "Phases"
>> The plot has holes (most
>> famously, what happened to Oz on night 1?) and hinges too much on
>> coincidences for my taste (he overhears that conversation just as he's
>> planning to turn himself in...), Giles acts inexplicably weird,
>
> Especially when laughing at Xander's dumb "moon pie" joke.
I like that. Giles never laughs at Xander's jokes. It figures that the one
he likes isn't funny.
> I do love that scene in the funeral parlor. (Even despite the callbacks
> to TP and IRYJ, of all episodes, as examples of Buffy saving her friends'
> lives.) Among other things it shows us an early example of Xander as
> Insightful Man, a role he doesn't really grow into until season 5.
There's still too much of his idiot self and tendency to lash out for this
to be reliable yet, but it is something building.
> Buffy
> is in such obvious need of comfort that for once Xander doesn't let his
> own feelings get in the way of providing it. "Don't let him get to you.
> He's not the same guy you knew," Xander says, validating Buffy's earlier
> love for the man who has since become such a monster. The confusing but
> intense look they share after that is open to a lot of interpretations.
> Xander is of course attracted, but what about Buffy? (Rhetorical question
> in lieu of offering a view of my own.) This scene also helps lead us to
> Xander's Big Lie, whether you think the Lie was mainly an impulsive act to
> help Buffy (as I do) or mainly a cynical attempt to get Angel killed, born
> of personal hatred and jealousy (as many people see it).
I think of it as the product of a confused mixture of motives. Personal
hatred and jealousy are part of it - as is a deeper antipathy towards
vampires going back to Jesse. (I think the series slightly botched the
impact of Jesse on Xander by dropping his memory so easily. But I think it
ought to be considered one of the root causes of his dislike for both Angel
and Spike. From Harvest, "I don't like vampires." In context, Xander was
speaking an absolute truth seared into his heart. In much the same sense
that it seared Justine in AtS. Fortunately Xander had a much different
support system and personality, but the direction in thought is of a kind
and, I think, should be considered part of Xander's make up.) He's also mad
at Buffy, especially about Willow being hurt. Remember what he said to
Buffy in When She Was Bad? "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you."
Speaking to your point, which started with Xander's wisdom. There have been
a couple other times that Xander has shown unusual understanding. Not so
intimate as here in the funeral home, but quite relevant to the Big Lie.
All the way back in NKABOTFD, Xander recognized how Buffy's mistaken belief
that her date was dead motivated her to fight harder, so he stopped Willow
from telling Buffy the truth. In When She Was Bad, it was Xander who could
see that Buffy wasn't done when the vampires were killed - that she still
had to let it out on the Master's bones. Both of those scenes (and to some
extent this one in Phases) I believe speak to Xander's role as observer and
witness. He sees - as will eventually be addressed more directly in S7.
When the Big Lie comes, Xander will again see and understand Buffy's state
of mind. Then, just as in NKABOTFD, he conceals the truth so that Buffy
will be better motivated to fight. Though I think the other motivations
help him come to that conclusion.
>> Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
> Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She stands up for
> herself, which is good; but it's *all* about herself, not about defending
> Xander or opposing sheepdom on principle.
Oh, I disagree with that. The language is largely about herself - I don't
think she knows how to express herself otherwise - something that will
continue deep into AtS. But I think it's pretty clear that her outburst is
prompted by her not being able to abide Harmony's putdown of Xander. And
her act is to cut herself off from the status of her former world and commit
herself instead to "lame" Xander and his circle of friends that once were
her very definition of loser. She'll never get that status back.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:l4vg63hgo3ndi2d4v...@4ax.com...
I have no quarrel with those observations. Each instance is individual to
itself, highlighting different aspects of the general. But there is
commonality - all pointing towards the final confrontation with
Angel/Angelus. The confusion of good and bad within. The growing
uncertainty of whether life or death is the best result. The growing impact
on Buffy as she measures ever more complicated balances between right and
wrong, desire and duty, so that she ultimately must face killing what she
loves most.
Over and over again there is some kind of human/monster mix and the sense
that neither life nor death is absolutely the right result.
>>That's 11 out of 15 episodes featuring monster/human ambiguities and a
>>less
>>than desirable kill/no kill decision. (Reptile Boy might make it 12 of
>>15,
>>but the connection is much weaker. It definitely hits on the idea that
>>people aren't all they seem to be, manifested as the good exterior hiding
>>the evil within. But there's no death decision involved.) Phases seems
>>to
>>complete the setup. After this we either get breaks from that story, or
>>play out the Angelus version of it. (I Only Have Eyes For You plays a
>>little bit independently with the theme too, but I take it as mostly
>>Angelus
>>directed in the end.)
>
> IOHEFY is not mostly Angelus directed, it is entirely Buffy directed.
> There
> is a very good reason why the ghost chooses Buffy to play the killer and
> Angel to play the victim. The entire point of IOHEFY is that before Buffy
> can do anything effectively, she first has to forgive herself.
I'm sorry, I only meant that it mostly pointed towards the Angelus story
line (which includes Buffy), as opposed to being a self contained episode,
not Angelus personally. I should have been more clear. I understand the
self forgiveness aspect.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Standout scene in an episode where almost every scene is excellent. That
> offhand "Love ya too. I'll call you" was especially (and painfully)
> brilliant. Could he possibly have said anything more perfectly designed
> to hurt Buffy? Well, maybe the bloody message he left on Enyos's hotel
> room wall....
mothers milk is red today
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
> news:l4vg63hgo3ndi2d4v...@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:06:35 -0400, "One Bit Shy"
> > <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >>SAR - Daryl (Frankenstein) is a monster doing monstrous things,
> >>but is not essentially evil. He didn't ask to have his life
> >>taken away from him, to be turned into a monster, to be saddled
> >>with unbearable loneliness. His yearnings, however
> >>inappropriately applied, are decidedly human. Even his brother
> >>would probably agree at the end that he's better off dead - a
> >>decision made especially easy by Daryl consuming himself in his
> >>own fire. But it still doesn't feel much like the slaying of an
> >>evil vampire or other evil demon. This time one wishes there
> >>could have been another way. And so the season theme begins.
> >
> > Darryl doesn't have much he can do in the way of choices, even
> > his (2nd) death wasn't really his choice.
> >
>
> I wouldn't say he had particularly good choices.
>
> But it's still his choice to stay hidden away and his choice to have
> Cordelia killed to supply the last parts for his "bride".
And in the end, he chose to die with his bride.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
it seems the usual watchr-slayer dynamic is mostly parent-child
with the slayer responsible to the watcher
but the watcher not responsible to the slayer
in lie to me helps expand that with buffy knowing that giles is lying
and with this its showing giles feels responsible tp buffy
giles-jenny really has nothing to do with buffy
as buffy later realizes (one episode too late)
but giles acting to please buffy shows they are interacting
more as two adults working together than father with a rebellious daughter
> Anyway, my personal favorite scene is Buffy's determined stride through the
> school to confront Jenny. "What do you know?" And then the final
its also shocking that a high school student would walk into a classroom
and grab a teacher by the throat
> and, I think, should be considered part of Xander's make up.) He's also mad
> at Buffy, especially about Willow being hurt. Remember what he said to
> Buffy in When She Was Bad? "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you."
i dont feel xander has any right to make that kind of demand on buffy
she was not sent to sunnydale as his personal protector and dream filler
its nice buffy can keep saving her friends
but her job is destroy the threat not protect bystanders
so its buffys job to keep the master dead
but not to keep willow alive
up until xander ends up in the basement
he keeps reverting to this jealous idiot
oz isnt allowed to put the tag back into willow shirt
buffy isnt allowed to run off in despair
etc
> Speaking to your point, which started with Xander's wisdom. There have been
> a couple other times that Xander has shown unusual understanding. Not so
> intimate as here in the funeral home, but quite relevant to the Big Lie.
> All the way back in NKABOTFD, Xander recognized how Buffy's mistaken belief
the difference is the other times he has been fairly passive
offering support and comfort without trying to direct buffy
with the big lie he is egging buffy on to destroy angelus
also in the next year when he uses jennys death as a cover
for his jealousy as he tries get buffy to destroy angel
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-7007F...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
Oh, Xander has a lot of idiot stuff to work out for sure. And you know,
mostly he does eventually, though he'll always have his share of
insecurities.
ObS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> mostly he does eventually, though he'll always have his share of
> insecurities.
perhaps its a year in the dungeon (or basement)
that knocks him down enough to eradicate the pompous idiocy
(normal idiocy remains but at least he realizes
that his limitations are his own problem)
and so when he released he is ready to be an adult
i think xander is the one who does the most growing up in the series
burt...@hotmail.com
> Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
> going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
> what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
> both. The rest is as painful as ever. I'm always tempted to delve
> into the degrading aspects of the crowd-of-shrieking-girls parts, but
> their main crime for me has always been being several levels beyond
> annoying, into the realm of needing to coin new words. Fandom is
> occasionally depressing - hey, that's what fandoms are for - but
> perhaps never more so than in the fact that BTVS fans were and are so
> near-universal in cramming this shit down their throats and begging
> Joss and co. for more. Well, fuck you too.
> Rating: Bad
Hey, you liked "Wrecked." You don't get to talk down to other people
about their taste in episodes.
One Bit Shy
>> Oh, Xander has a lot of idiot stuff to work out for sure. And you know,
>> mostly he does eventually, though he'll always have his share of
>> insecurities.
>
> perhaps its a year in the dungeon (or basement)
> that knocks him down enough to eradicate the pompous idiocy
> (normal idiocy remains but at least he realizes
> that his limitations are his own problem)
> and so when he released he is ready to be an adult
>
> i think xander is the one who does the most growing up in the series
He's the only "normal" in the group. Maturity may be the only path to
growth available to him.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> The bedroom scene between wet, defeated, miserable Buffy and Angel? That
>> one's kinda hot too. There's some debate about whether the episode should
>> have ended when it did, or if it would have been better to reveal Angelus
>> before the end. I think it's fine the way it is; and putting Angelus at
>> the end of Surprise would have deprived Innocence of its strong beginning.
>
> More importantly to me is that going further would have walked over the
> ending of Surprise. Buffy just had her first sex and I think it's important
> to be pondering the implications of that and limit the Angel moment to
> wondering what the sex has prompted in him. Rushing right on to Angelus too
> quickly leaves that behind.
Didn't think of that part, but you're entirely right.
> I get a little overwhelmed sometimes by how much is great in this episode.
> It's so packed.
You remind me of one particular time I watched Innocence two or three
years ago. I had been obsessed with something else (forget what) and
hadn't watched any BTVS or Angel for a few weeks, hadn't been reading
atbvs, hadn't even thought much about Buffy for a few days. Then, one
lazy Sunday afternoon, I was struck by a sudden urge to see the scene
where Angelus first rejoins Spike and Dru. Just that one scene. So I
popped the DVD in, hit play, and for the next 44 minutes stared at the TV
absolutely mesmerized, unable to look away. There was never a single
moment when I considered skipping ahead or fast-forwarding or even pausing
to get a drink. Innocence is not just one of highest-quality episodes,
it's probably THE best one for sweeping you along and not letting you go
until the credits roll.
>> Especially when laughing at Xander's dumb "moon pie" joke.
>
> I like that. Giles never laughs at Xander's jokes. It figures that the one
> he likes isn't funny.
Now I'm reminded of End of Days, when we learn that it was Giles, of all
people, who said "No more fun and games, eh?" to one-eyed Xander.
>> in lieu of offering a view of my own.) This scene also helps lead us to
>> Xander's Big Lie, whether you think the Lie was mainly an impulsive act to
>> help Buffy (as I do) or mainly a cynical attempt to get Angel killed, born
>> of personal hatred and jealousy (as many people see it).
>
> I think of it as the product of a confused mixture of motives. Personal
> hatred and jealousy are part of it - as is a deeper antipathy towards
> vampires going back to Jesse.
I definitely agree about the confused mixture of motives. At most, one
could argue that this or that motive was more important than the others.
We'll probably talk about this again when Arb gets to disc 6. One minor
quibble: *everyone* in the gang has an antipathy towards vampires.
Xander is different because he's more reluctant than anyone else to make
exceptions for Angel and Spike, and this is a product of his personality,
the trauma of Jesse, and jealousy of Angel all coming together. Though
putting it that way is a little too roundabout for easy discussion, so
maybe we should stick with the pithier "antipathy towards vampires" after
all. Anyway, I share your disappointment that Jesse was forgotten by the
scriptwriters, and I like the Xander-Justine comparison.
(ISTR leafing through one Buffy comic, set in S5 or 6, whose plot hinged
on Xander having an irrational, hysterical hatred for Spike while no other
Scoobies had any problem with him. I didn't buy that one, in either sense
of "buy.")
> and, I think, should be considered part of Xander's make up.) He's also mad
> at Buffy, especially about Willow being hurt. Remember what he said to
> Buffy in When She Was Bad? "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you."
Agreed. Xander is sometimes an audience stand-in character, in that he
cares about Willow so strongly.... Also, Willow being hurt was part of
the larger fact that the first time she tried the curse, it was an utter
disaster. So another factor in XBL was that Xander was not confident that
the spell would work this time either. This made him even less willing to
risk anyone's life on trying it again.
>> Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She stands up for
>> herself, which is good; but it's *all* about herself, not about defending
>> Xander or opposing sheepdom on principle.
>
> Oh, I disagree with that. The language is largely about herself - I don't
> think she knows how to express herself otherwise - something that will
> continue deep into AtS. But I think it's pretty clear that her outburst is
> prompted by her not being able to abide Harmony's putdown of Xander. And
> her act is to cut herself off from the status of her former world and commit
> herself instead to "lame" Xander and his circle of friends that once were
> her very definition of loser. She'll never get that status back.
Eh, maybe. You might be on to something when you say that Cordy only
knows how to express herself in selfish terms, even if her actions aren't
(entirely) selfish. Maybe we can say she has mixed motives, some
self-centered and some not, much as Xander will in Bec2.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> and, I think, should be considered part of Xander's make up.) He's also mad
>> at Buffy, especially about Willow being hurt. Remember what he said to
>> Buffy in When She Was Bad? "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you."
>
> i dont feel xander has any right to make that kind of demand on buffy
> she was not sent to sunnydale as his personal protector and dream filler
> its nice buffy can keep saving her friends
> but her job is destroy the threat not protect bystanders
I don't think "rights" really mean anything in an emotional situation like
that. If Xander thinks Buffy is responsible for Willow being in peril, he
will inevitably be furious at Buffy, and he'll naturally feel it's her
responsibility to fix the situation, whether or not he has the "right"
to feel that way. In general, I think the concept of rights is best kept
to discussions of peoples' actions, not their feelings.
> with the big lie he is egging buffy on to destroy angelus
>
> also in the next year when he uses jennys death as a cover
> for his jealousy as he tries get buffy to destroy angel
You mean in Revelations? We can talk about it more when that thread
arrives; but briefly, I don't think Xander was solely motivated by
jealousy in either Revelations or Becoming 2. There was a mixture of
motives, some decent and some less so. As for the "cover" part, I think
he really did care about Jenny's death, regardless of whether he was also
jealous or not.
Michael Ikeda
news:136h5v1...@news.supernews.com:
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:136gv2m...@corp.supernews.com...
>> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality
>> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>> A reminder: These threads are not spoiler-free.
>>
>> .
>>
>
>>> Season Two, Episode 16: "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered"
>
>> Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She
>> stands up for herself, which is good; but it's *all* about
>> herself, not about defending Xander or opposing sheepdom on
>> principle.
>
> Oh, I disagree with that. The language is largely about herself
> - I don't think she knows how to express herself otherwise -
> something that will continue deep into AtS. But I think it's
> pretty clear that her outburst is prompted by her not being able
> to abide Harmony's putdown of Xander. And her act is to cut
> herself off from the status of her former world and commit
> herself instead to "lame" Xander and his circle of friends that
> once were her very definition of loser. She'll never get that
> status back.
Just a minor note.
Right after Cordelia's speech as they're walking away together,
Xander tells her "If it helps, whenever we're around them you and I
can fight a lot."
Which brought to mind the scene in the "Serenity" movie where Mal
explains that he knows Inara's call was a trap because they didn't
argue.
One Bit Shy
news:136j705...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> I definitely agree about the confused mixture of motives. At most, one
> could argue that this or that motive was more important than the others.
> We'll probably talk about this again when Arb gets to disc 6.
LOL! You want me to pull out my defense of Hells Bells again? This group
already thinks I'm a lunatic on that. Though I suppose you're thinking more
of Xander's attitude towards Spuffy.
> One minor
> quibble: *everyone* in the gang has an antipathy towards vampires.
> Xander is different because he's more reluctant than anyone else to make
> exceptions for Angel and Spike, and this is a product of his personality,
> the trauma of Jesse, and jealousy of Angel all coming together. Though
> putting it that way is a little too roundabout for easy discussion, so
> maybe we should stick with the pithier "antipathy towards vampires" after
> all.
*His* antipathy towards vampires. (As in everybody has their own special
version.)
> Agreed. Xander is sometimes an audience stand-in character, in that he
> cares about Willow so strongly.... Also, Willow being hurt was part of
> the larger fact that the first time she tried the curse, it was an utter
> disaster. So another factor in XBL was that Xander was not confident that
> the spell would work this time either. This made him even less willing to
> risk anyone's life on trying it again.
True. So there's both rational and irrational elements. Good and bad
motives. So much condensed into one spur of the moment decision of unknown
effect.
From a writing perspective, though, I don't think they were thinking so much
of highlighting the storm within Xander. I think the primary purpose was
the functional one of removing Buffy's last hope while still allowing the
spell to be performed.
>>> Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She stands up
>>> for
>>> herself, which is good; but it's *all* about herself, not about
>>> defending
>>> Xander or opposing sheepdom on principle.
>>
>> Oh, I disagree with that. The language is largely about herself - I
>> don't
>> think she knows how to express herself otherwise - something that will
>> continue deep into AtS. But I think it's pretty clear that her outburst
>> is
>> prompted by her not being able to abide Harmony's putdown of Xander. And
>> her act is to cut herself off from the status of her former world and
>> commit
>> herself instead to "lame" Xander and his circle of friends that once were
>> her very definition of loser. She'll never get that status back.
>
> Eh, maybe. You might be on to something when you say that Cordy only
> knows how to express herself in selfish terms, even if her actions aren't
> (entirely) selfish. Maybe we can say she has mixed motives, some
> self-centered and some not, much as Xander will in Bec2.
Constructing the workings of early Cordy's mind is one of my pet topics that
I train to do all the best tricks. Perhaps they're imagined, like the
wonders of a flea circus. But they delight me none the less.
The key to it is that Cordy's determined life-long pursuit of Queen C has
left her unable to process much of anything around her except through the
filter of how it affects her. This gets especially warped whenever the
emotion involved is outward reaching rather than directed to herself. The
contradiction in that is - well - comical.
One of the curiosities of Cordy is that she can say monumentally dumb
things, yet one senses she isn't really stupid. (Certainly not Harmony
stupid. That contrast may be part of why Harmony exists.) Instead you have
"Cordy logic". I think it can be explained by that filter. Such as her
classroom commentary about the Merchant of Venice and Marie Antoinette.
Each very odd and self centered for sure, but also exhibiting someone doing
her homework, seriously thinking about it, and developing some pretty
inventive analysis.
It's self centered run amok. The source is certainly extreme selfishness,
but even her empathy grows through experience, and her yearnings reach
outwards. I believe that part of her story is that she wants to belong, not
just be the apex. Reaching out to Buffy's circle - which she was beginning
to do even without Xander's influence - I think is telling because that's a
group she can never be the apex of. Even Cordy must know that. But she's
stuck with this weird handicap of not being able to express any of that, or
even properly think it out, except through her self centered filter.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> and, I think, should be considered part of Xander's make up.) He's also
> >> mad
> >> at Buffy, especially about Willow being hurt. Remember what he said to
> >> Buffy in When She Was Bad? "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you."
> >
> > i dont feel xander has any right to make that kind of demand on buffy
> > she was not sent to sunnydale as his personal protector and dream filler
> > its nice buffy can keep saving her friends
> > but her job is destroy the threat not protect bystanders
>
> I don't think "rights" really mean anything in an emotional situation like
> that. If Xander thinks Buffy is responsible for Willow being in peril, he
> will inevitably be furious at Buffy, and he'll naturally feel it's her
> responsibility to fix the situation, whether or not he has the "right"
> to feel that way. In general, I think the concept of rights is best kept
> to discussions of peoples' actions, not their feelings.
its the same thing dead mans party and revelations
and elsewhere up to season four
where he presumes buffy is there to protect him personally
and gets angry whe she doesnt
anya helped him grow up in many ways
its a pity anya didnt grow up until the end
One Bit Shy
news:prednZXb26HBTPTb...@rcn.net...
OK. Now I know I have to watch that damn movie. And - hey - I just finally
got hold of a copy. Hear that AOQ? I might actually understand your review
of it before too long.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Hey, you liked "Wrecked." You don't get to talk down to other people
> about their taste in episodes.
Just watch me.
-AOQ
~I think I'm actually most alone on "She;" I'm literally the only
person on the NG who likes it, as far as I remember, while there were
five or six of us "Wrecked" fans at last count~
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Some of the fixes are a bit
> clunky - the curse is really not explained in the sort of way that makes
> sense
You vant sense?! Dere is only veeengeance...
and of all the people who were temporarily transformed in Halloween,
> just Xander seems to have remembered stuff from his Halloween persona
> (because only Xander needs to for the plot).
He was the only one with skills of note from that persona, right?
Willow was still Willow and wasn't trained for anything. I don't even
remember whether it's in this thread or not (not much with the
sleeping this week), but someone made the argument that each character
got whatever skills the persona-maker thought they should have -
Xander's idea of a soldier was competent with the weapons, where
Buffy's idea of a noblewoman didn't know anything beyond looking
pretty and being useless.
> I'm not generally a fan of the BtVS werewolf episodes, but this one's not so
> bad.
If you like BatB somewhat less, then given how you feel about the S4
werewolf episodes, that'd make us polar opposites on the Ozwolf
front. (I forget what you said about "Unleashed," although a quick
search after I post this should rectify that.)
> It's good to see you've calmed down a bit about this episode, and the fact
> that so many fans love it. And your reaction gives us insight into the
> plight of the differently enhumoured. It must be very difficult to watch
> this episode if you are not busy laughing.
I have this weird condition where I only laugh at funny things.
> I know of no case where anyone has been genuinely persuaded by argument that
> something is funny, so I will just note two performances:
> Robia LaMorte - everything she does in this episode is spot on. Best "eeep"
> ever as Giles drags her away from Xander. Jenny looks set to become a major
> character :)
She's a pure human woman who's practically a member of the main cast
at this point. We all know what that means for her future.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > I know of no case where anyone has been genuinely persuaded by argument that
> > something is funny, so I will just note two performances:
> > Robia LaMorte - everything she does in this episode is spot on. Best "eeep"
> > ever as Giles drags her away from Xander. Jenny looks set to become a major
> > character :)
>
> She's a pure human woman who's practically a member of the main cast
> at this point. We all know what that means for her future.
you bastard
One Bit Shy
news:1181353494....@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Wrecked was good. She, alas, was not. But I don't hate it. It's redeeming
quality is the background message - Feeling horny? Take a cold shower! I
still get the giggles at all the ways it touches on cooling down. Otherwise
it's a pretty stupid episode.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> > Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
> > going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
> > what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
> > both.
>
> There's a fair amount of that part.
No BTVS episode is completely worthless. Mrs. Q. and I appear to be
alone in the extent of our hatred, but I can think of very few things
I wouldn't rather watch than the A-story portions of 3B. It's almost
to the point of a physical reaction. The only sequence of that length
I can think of that makes me want to claw my eyes and ears out to that
extent is act four of "Sense And Sensitivity," also apparently popular
with the masses (and you). And maybe parts of TGIQ. It's thanks to
the stuff around the edges (and the fact that act one is just fine)
that 3B manages a Bad rating.
>. The re-introduction of Amy is quite the pleasure.
> Nice performance.
It always seemed weird to me to see her suddenly using magic and
nobody reacting. Again, she was posessed by her mother for Cthulhu
knows how long, then wanted to revel in not being like Catherine. Now
she's going nuts with the magic. Wouldn't there be issues with that,
and even if not, wouldn't you be worried about her (or that she was
somehow posessed again)? Maybe it'd make sense if we knew Amy in
these big empty spaces during which the others were apparently sitting
in class with her every day. She really had the potential to be a
great character (she doesn't do much for me here... or in "Witch," for
that matter... but Allen steals the show in some of her later
appearances), but she appears in such a haphazard way that her story
never develops any kind of momentum. Having someone flit in and out
of one's life like that (flitting in a dead-sexy way. Just so we're
clear) may be realistic (although usually it doesn't involve living in
a cage in one's room for three years), but it's not so dramatically
satisfying.
More on Cordelia later, maybe, possibly in a different part of the
thread, but for now I'll just say that much like her big moments in
OOM/S, this episode strikes me as a shallow "big" step for a shallow
character who didn't get any more interesting afterward. And she's
indeed the best thing about the episode, other than the vampires'
valentine-gifts bit and maybe some of the Buffy/Xander scenes.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The parallels actually go back to Some Assembly Required. To a very
> significant degree, almost every episode this season has replayed the same
> story, which I'll call, The Trouble With Killing. Over and over again you
> have some sort of human/monster mix with reason to kill and reason to let
> live. The distinction seems so simple early on that it barely attracts
> notice. But it's there, and it keeps getting harder.
>
> In essence, we've spent a season watching Buffy rehearse her final
> confrontation with Angelus/Angel.
>
> I'm not sure if any other stretch of BtVS is so stubbornly repetitive about
> such a narrow issue. The odd thing is that I don't think it's all that
> clear as a theme until this episode. And even then, you have to consciously
> review back to see how pervasive it has been.
And although I see very little to dispute, it wasn't very clear at all
to me, given that no one's talked about the level of pervasiveness
until now, on the second run through this portion of the series. For
better or for worse, it's a background element. S1 also rarely
focused on its over-arching theme without something more urgent-
seeming in the foreground, but this is even more so. Even in
"Phases," the parallel with Angel has to compete with the main should-
this-monster-be-killed dilemma, a murder mystery of sorts, plenty of
relationship angst, and the heavy-handed metaphors about the less-fair
sex. It's one worth having in a general sense, especially since one-
sided evil is one of the obstacles that the show needed to overcome in
order to have staying power beyond S1. BTVS tends to deal in villains
that aren't necessarily sympathetic, but have enough humanity in them
that, for one reason or another, they're hard to kill (I mean, pretty
much all of the heroes go dark at one point or another).
Interesting post (possibly more so than "Phases" itself).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1181353494....@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > ~I think I'm actually most alone on "She;" I'm literally the only
> > person on the NG who likes it, as far as I remember, while there were
> > five or six of us "Wrecked" fans at last count~
>
> Wrecked was good. She, alas, was not. But I don't hate it. It's redeeming
> quality is the background message - Feeling horny? Take a cold shower! I
> still get the giggles at all the ways it touches on cooling down. Otherwise
> it's a pretty stupid episode.
Not worth a long discussion at the moment, but I say it's stylish and
consistently entertaining, and bats at a worthwhile theme (dealing
with the hero of one fight being the enemy in another) when not bogged
down in metaphor.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Buffy's dream starts things off on a properly ominous note. Like all good
> prophecies, it correctly warns that trouble is coming but misleads as to
> the nature of that trouble -- Buffy is going to lose Angel, but not
> through anything remotely like Dru staking him.
I think I was always a little thrown by the fact that the dream wasn't
as prophetic as one might think, given how closely reality seems to be
echoing it. I guess Dru kinda takes Angel away from Buffy, but it's,
as you say, not remotely like it. I think I also tried to fit the
fact that her Sight helps prevent Angel from being restored in
"Passion" into this.
> Standout scene in an episode where almost every scene is excellent. That
> offhand "Love ya too. I'll call you" was especially (and painfully)
> brilliant. Could he possibly have said anything more perfectly designed
> to hurt Buffy?
Not really related, but I think this is a good example of how the
series operates. We talked a lot about direction of the metaphors
last time through the series, and I don't want ot get into that again,
since many of the analogies actually run both ways. But this is a
BTVS touch, in which a character within the story knowingly makes the
audience think of the non-supernatural analogue to turning into a
soulless vampire. _Buffy_'s love of meta-drama and self-referential
flavor is more than just a collection of pop culture references. It's
not just about having someone compare Angel to an Anne Rice character,
or Yoda, or whatever. It's also about Angel recognizing in his
situation the similarities to a girl's nightmare scenario of sleeping
with a guy and him turning out to be a different person than she
thought, and intentionally playing his hand that way so as to inflict
maximum damage.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 7, 4:44 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
> > Buffy's dream starts things off on a properly ominous note. Like all good
> > prophecies, it correctly warns that trouble is coming but misleads as to
> > the nature of that trouble -- Buffy is going to lose Angel, but not
> > through anything remotely like Dru staking him.
>
> I think I was always a little thrown by the fact that the dream wasn't
> as prophetic as one might think, given how closely reality seems to be
it wasnt a prophetic dream
it was a message from dru to goad buffy into a mistake
Spike: Well, well. Look what we have here. Crashers.
Buffy: I'm sure our invitations just got lost in the mail.
Drusilla: It's delicious. (licks her fingers) (to Angel) I only dreamed
you'd come. Rrrr.
Angel: (struggles) Leave her alone.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> I definitely agree about the confused mixture of motives. At most, one
>> could argue that this or that motive was more important than the others.
>> We'll probably talk about this again when Arb gets to disc 6.
>
> LOL! You want me to pull out my defense of Hells Bells again? This group
> already thinks I'm a lunatic on that. Though I suppose you're thinking more
> of Xander's attitude towards Spuffy.
Heh. No, I was actually thinking of disc 6 of season 2, which is when we
get to XBL. But now that you mention it, this concept of mixed motives
will probably also get a good workout when discussing season 6. (And not
just in regard to Xander.)
One Bit Shy
news:136lrdb...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>> I definitely agree about the confused mixture of motives. At most, one
>>> could argue that this or that motive was more important than the others.
>>> We'll probably talk about this again when Arb gets to disc 6.
>>
>> LOL! You want me to pull out my defense of Hells Bells again? This
>> group
>> already thinks I'm a lunatic on that. Though I suppose you're thinking
>> more
>> of Xander's attitude towards Spuffy.
>
> Heh. No, I was actually thinking of disc 6 of season 2, which is when we
> get to XBL. But now that you mention it, this concept of mixed motives
> will probably also get a good workout when discussing season 6. (And not
> just in regard to Xander.)
Ooops!... Never mind.
One Bit Shy
news:1181371744.3...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 4:44 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>> Buffy's dream starts things off on a properly ominous note. Like all
>> good
>> prophecies, it correctly warns that trouble is coming but misleads as to
>> the nature of that trouble -- Buffy is going to lose Angel, but not
>> through anything remotely like Dru staking him.
>
> I think I was always a little thrown by the fact that the dream wasn't
> as prophetic as one might think, given how closely reality seems to be
> echoing it. I guess Dru kinda takes Angel away from Buffy, but it's,
> as you say, not remotely like it. I think I also tried to fit the
> fact that her Sight helps prevent Angel from being restored in
> "Passion" into this.
There's some hint that Dru may have been actively involved in that dream -
yet another indication of how much Drusilla might be the real mover of
events. It's a bit ambiguous though, and I've often mused about how their
cross-over of psychic powers might have worked.
Be that as it may, much of the dream did come to pass. Buffy and Dru do
confront each other at a party on Buffy's birthday with Angel's fate at
stake. It's only Angel's fate itself that gets confused.
>> Standout scene in an episode where almost every scene is excellent. That
>> offhand "Love ya too. I'll call you" was especially (and painfully)
>> brilliant. Could he possibly have said anything more perfectly designed
>> to hurt Buffy?
>
> Not really related, but I think this is a good example of how the
> series operates. We talked a lot about direction of the metaphors
> last time through the series, and I don't want ot get into that again,
> since many of the analogies actually run both ways. But this is a
> BTVS touch, in which a character within the story knowingly makes the
> audience think of the non-supernatural analogue to turning into a
> soulless vampire. _Buffy_'s love of meta-drama and self-referential
> flavor is more than just a collection of pop culture references. It's
> not just about having someone compare Angel to an Anne Rice character,
> or Yoda, or whatever. It's also about Angel recognizing in his
> situation the similarities to a girl's nightmare scenario of sleeping
> with a guy and him turning out to be a different person than she
> thought, and intentionally playing his hand that way so as to inflict
> maximum damage.
I pretty much wish I'd never said anything about reversing direction. It
got way side tracked from what I thought I was going after. I'll have to
figure out different terminology next time.
That's a real good observation about what Angel is consciously doing. I
hadn't thought of it quite that way before. What I especially like about it
is that it explains one little thing that I had often wondered about. If
you strip away the context of that scene and just look at the words, they're
mostly a collection of clichés. Ridiculously so, really. Yet the scene
clearly works beautifully in spite of that. I've often wondered why, and I
think you may have hit upon it. Angel is consciously playing to that
classic fear - actually adopting the caricature of it to further accent the
sense that this can't be real - but it's actually happening.
Now I'm thinking of The Shroud of Rahmon, which had Angel play acting a
Vegas hood - pure caricature. A very different context for sure, but Angel
is using the same technique to play act his role. (Much the same occurs
other times too.) What's interesting to me is that it's Angel - not
Angelus - doing that. Another way that we see that Angel and Angelus really
are a shared identity more than the separate ones that Angel likes to
imagine. I'm struck by that now because this scene with Buffy is
traditionally seen as pure Angelus. Indeed, much of the point is how
different he is from Angel. Maybe not as different as they think.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1181369659.4...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 2:56 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>
>> > Probably the closest I got to an ABOMINATION rating, but 3B has enough
>> > going on to save it from that fate. I'm actually fine with most of
>> > what happens before (and after) the spell, involves the vampires, or
>> > both.
>>
>> There's a fair amount of that part.
>
> No BTVS episode is completely worthless. Mrs. Q. and I appear to be
> alone in the extent of our hatred, but I can think of very few things
> I wouldn't rather watch than the A-story portions of 3B. It's almost
> to the point of a physical reaction. The only sequence of that length
> I can think of that makes me want to claw my eyes and ears out to that
> extent is act four of "Sense And Sensitivity," also apparently popular
> with the masses (and you). And maybe parts of TGIQ. It's thanks to
> the stuff around the edges (and the fact that act one is just fine)
> that 3B manages a Bad rating.
I thought a lot of people reacted badly to Sense And Sensitivity - more than
BB&B anyway. I know a lot consider TGIQ to be an abomination. <shrug> As
oft noted, comedy has a way of drawing out extreme variances in response. I
don't personally comprehend the near physical reaction to this, but I can't
help but note how, in other contexts, nothing quite outrages people so much
as the perceived inappropriate joke.
>>. The re-introduction of Amy is quite the pleasure.
>> Nice performance.
>
> It always seemed weird to me to see her suddenly using magic and
> nobody reacting. Again, she was posessed by her mother for Cthulhu
> knows how long, then wanted to revel in not being like Catherine. Now
> she's going nuts with the magic. Wouldn't there be issues with that,
> and even if not, wouldn't you be worried about her (or that she was
> somehow posessed again)? Maybe it'd make sense if we knew Amy in
> these big empty spaces during which the others were apparently sitting
> in class with her every day. She really had the potential to be a
> great character (she doesn't do much for me here... or in "Witch," for
> that matter... but Allen steals the show in some of her later
> appearances), but she appears in such a haphazard way that her story
> never develops any kind of momentum. Having someone flit in and out
> of one's life like that (flitting in a dead-sexy way. Just so we're
> clear) may be realistic (although usually it doesn't involve living in
> a cage in one's room for three years), but it's not so dramatically
> satisfying.
Mostly I agree with that. Amy could have been a fascinating major side
story, and this moment in particular seems well primed for all sorts of
questions and complications. But the series already has a bunch of
characters and other stories to tell, so that's all the room there was for
her. I still enjoy seeing here here though.
> More on Cordelia later, maybe, possibly in a different part of the
> thread, but for now I'll just say that much like her big moments in
> OOM/S, this episode strikes me as a shallow "big" step for a shallow
> character who didn't get any more interesting afterward. And she's
> indeed the best thing about the episode, other than the vampires'
> valentine-gifts bit and maybe some of the Buffy/Xander scenes.
Oh, you're under no pressure to appreciate early Cordy. I haven't been
talking about her because of your attitude. In the first half of S2,
Cordy's story is probably the clearest ongoing story there is. Other things
may be bigger - like Ripper for example. But Ripper is presented, Giles
character is adjusted to it, and then we move on. It's quite brief. There
really isn't a whole lot that was ongoing. Willow/Oz is kind of a joke for
the sheer brevity of its character developing moments for quite a few
episodes. There are some very big things going on with Buffy, but early on
it tends towards more obscure thematic elements that really require the
appearance of Angelus to pull together. From my point of view, Cordelia is
the biggest thing to watch episode to episode for much of this season - and
BB&B is pretty much the culmination of that. So, I focus on it because what
else am I going to focus on?
Fortunately I like her and the story well enough, but I also know that it's
not really worthy of being a big deal. And after this... well, I'm not sure
M.E. really had much interesting to say about her until late S3, which then
was probably mainly to set up AtS.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> firstly with the flowers all wrong,
They're all... wrongggggggg...
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1181371744.3...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
That always threw me when getting to know Angel, how comfortably he
can throw himself into a character, particularly a caricature, despite
being so shy and uncommunicative when just being himself. While evil,
we'll get another great example of him doing a bit in "Passion" next
disc. Probably the time I think I got most swept away by the meta,
though (well, plus the fact that it wasn't such a great episode
otherwise), was in "Blood Money" where we have Beige Angel doing an
impression of Season One Angel.
As far as Angel and Angelus go, well, however much each one's way of
thinking may repulse the alter-ego, they're really damn good at
impersonating each other.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:136j705...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >>> Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She stands up
> >>> for
> >>> herself, which is good; but it's *all* about herself, not about
> >>> defending
> >>> Xander or opposing sheepdom on principle.
My biggest concern at the time was whether the writers were making it
clear that they knew that this isn't a big deal or a big bit of
insight. What she's actually saying isn't about making a choice or
learning anything, it's "I'm cooler than you." It's true that (and
this deflates the alleged importance of the moment for me, BTW ) 3B
isn't so much about Cordelia; she's the trigger, but the episode's A-
story is singularly focused on Xander and his wacky hijinx. It's also
true that at this point in the series, given Cordelia's character,
it's the best we can expect from her. Whether we're meant to take it
at face value or delve into the workings of her mind, well, that
depends on one's interest in doing so. For instance...
(I'll also briefly note that most of her interactions with Xander this
far have involved "cutely" arguing and ocassional yelling, whereas the
episode-ending bit of banter is an early example of the more obvious
fondness we'll see in the later episodes of S2, "Becoming" in
particular.)
> >> Oh, I disagree with that. The language is largely about herself - I
> >> don't
> >> think she knows how to express herself otherwise - something that will
> >> continue deep into AtS. But I think it's pretty clear that her outburst
> >> is
> >> prompted by her not being able to abide Harmony's putdown of Xander. And
> >> her act is to cut herself off from the status of her former world and
> >> commit
> >> herself instead to "lame" Xander and his circle of friends that once were
> >> her very definition of loser. She'll never get that status back.
>
> > Eh, maybe. You might be on to something when you say that Cordy only
> > knows how to express herself in selfish terms, even if her actions aren't
> > (entirely) selfish. Maybe we can say she has mixed motives, some
> > self-centered and some not, much as Xander will in Bec2.
>
> Constructing the workings of early Cordy's mind is one of my pet topics that
> I train to do all the best tricks. Perhaps they're imagined, like the
> wonders of a flea circus. But they delight me none the less.
>
> The key to it is that Cordy's determined life-long pursuit of Queen C has
> left her unable to process much of anything around her except through the
> filter of how it affects her. This gets especially warped whenever the
> emotion involved is outward reaching rather than directed to herself. The
> contradiction in that is - well - comical.
You can see shades of what the show would later do with Anya, with the
show using her native way of expressing herself as a way to often make
her unable to communicate her feelings effectively to other people.
Again, the show uses that mostly for comedic effect, and occasionally
to make a more serious point as well. I feel like BTVS-Cordy was a
collection of traits that never clicked for me, but formed the basis
for later being more effectively divided into three characters: ATS-
Cordy for the continued story of sublimating self-centeredness into
the world of heroes, Anya for the dissonant voice of the Scoobies, and
Harmony for the unadulterated ditzy moments.
> One of the curiosities of Cordy is that she can say monumentally dumb
> things, yet one senses she isn't really stupid. (Certainly not Harmony
> stupid. That contrast may be part of why Harmony exists.) Instead you have
> "Cordy logic". I think it can be explained by that filter. Such as her
> classroom commentary about the Merchant of Venice and Marie Antoinette.
> Each very odd and self centered for sure, but also exhibiting someone doing
> her homework, seriously thinking about it, and developing some pretty
> inventive analysis.
Into one of my pet issues, which I'll rehash once again. Cordelia's
intelligence is always in a state of flux. Sometimes she's
intelligent and trying to hide it, sometimes she's intelligent but
wired to express herself in stupid ways, and sometimes she's a moron
(see "The Wish"). The contrasting classroom scenes are an example -
her comments on Shylock are as described above: an analysis filtered
through Cordy-logic. (Pretty annoying, but no implication that she
lacks intelligence.) Her comments about Marie Antionette, on the
other hand, are just stupid. Again disregarding the fact that "let
them eat cake" isn't a MA quote (the teacher could have been the one
who got that wrong), it would require a complete lack of understanding
or intellectual capacity in order to come to the conclusion that MA
was a nice person who wanted to give people cake.
> It's self centered run amok. The source is certainly extreme selfishness,
> but even her empathy grows through experience, and her yearnings reach
> outwards. I believe that part of her story is that she wants to belong, not
> just be the apex. Reaching out to Buffy's circle - which she was beginning
> to do even without Xander's influence - I think is telling because that's a
> group she can never be the apex of.
Okay, you've gotten me thinking that one of the few funny lines from
SAR should be considered more seriously too.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
> On Jun 8, 6:04 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> news:136j705...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> > In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> >>> Note that Cordy's final moment is still pretty selfish. She stands
>> >>> up
>> >>> for
>> >>> herself, which is good; but it's *all* about herself, not about
>> >>> defending
>> >>> Xander or opposing sheepdom on principle.
>
> My biggest concern at the time was whether the writers were making it
> clear that they knew that this isn't a big deal or a big bit of
> insight. What she's actually saying isn't about making a choice or
> learning anything, it's "I'm cooler than you."
In simplest terms it's Cordy realizing how stupid it would be to dump Xander
just so she can hang out with the likes of Harmony. I don't think the
insight is about Harmony. (I suspect Cordy harbored thoughts like that
about Harm already.) The insight was comprehending that she had chosen
wrong in her life and that she should grasp the opportunity to choose
otherwise.
I don't think that the point of this scene is contained in the words used.
It's mainly about rejecting Harmony, which represents rejecting her "popular
girl" status. What the words do help suggest is that Cordy isn't just
choosing Xander over Harmony, but also escaping the popular girl trap.
One of the reasons I like the Cordy story - as thinly presented as I realize
it is - is because she does more than represent the kind of life that Buffy
had to forsake to be The Slayer. M.E. constructed the parallel to be just a
tad more complete by having Cordy trapped in her role too, with Buffy
representing what's denied her as a result. It's a two way representation
with each in their way yearning for what the other has, while still liking
some of what they do have and who they are. Buffy and Cordy both try to
escape their perceived traps while hanging onto their identity.
You speak later of Cordy's functions being distributed across multiple
characters in later seasons, which I mostly agree with, but this function of
contrasting models for living doesn't seem to be replaced. (For Buffy that
is. Cordy actually gets to try something roughly akin to Buffy's life -
even wins over Angel.)
> It's true that (and
> this deflates the alleged importance of the moment for me, BTW ) 3B
> isn't so much about Cordelia; she's the trigger, but the episode's A-
> story is singularly focused on Xander and his wacky hijinx. It's also
> true that at this point in the series, given Cordelia's character,
> it's the best we can expect from her. Whether we're meant to take it
> at face value or delve into the workings of her mind, well, that
> depends on one's interest in doing so. For instance...
>
> (I'll also briefly note that most of her interactions with Xander this
> far have involved "cutely" arguing and ocassional yelling, whereas the
> episode-ending bit of banter is an early example of the more obvious
> fondness we'll see in the later episodes of S2, "Becoming" in
> particular.)
There's some pretty obvious fondness in this episode. Like continuing to
wear the necklace after the break-up. This is just the transition point.
Previously she was actively resisting such feelings.
I don't disagree with that - including not quite clicking. I think I'm more
intrigued by the potential of the character than the reality. The actual
presentation suffers form inconsistencies, over reliance on the comic
caricature, and just too little screen time. She never achieves the core
status of Willow and Xander. To a large extent the series only teases us
with the character - refusing to really follow through with her. (At least
until AtS.) For example, Homecoming could be seen as a kind of
reconciliation between Cordy and Buffy, but as far as I can see nothing
comes of it. (Actually it seems to kind of end the Cordy/Buffy story.)
So I enjoy her personality and am intrigued by the idea of the character,
but recognize that it is only shallowly realized on screen. That's
unfortunate. However, it does provide lots of fodder for the imagination.
>> One of the curiosities of Cordy is that she can say monumentally dumb
>> things, yet one senses she isn't really stupid. (Certainly not Harmony
>> stupid. That contrast may be part of why Harmony exists.) Instead you
>> have
>> "Cordy logic". I think it can be explained by that filter. Such as her
>> classroom commentary about the Merchant of Venice and Marie Antoinette.
>> Each very odd and self centered for sure, but also exhibiting someone
>> doing
>> her homework, seriously thinking about it, and developing some pretty
>> inventive analysis.
>
> Into one of my pet issues, which I'll rehash once again. Cordelia's
> intelligence is always in a state of flux. Sometimes she's
> intelligent and trying to hide it, sometimes she's intelligent but
> wired to express herself in stupid ways, and sometimes she's a moron
> (see "The Wish"). The contrasting classroom scenes are an example -
> her comments on Shylock are as described above: an analysis filtered
> through Cordy-logic. (Pretty annoying, but no implication that she
> lacks intelligence.) Her comments about Marie Antionette, on the
> other hand, are just stupid. Again disregarding the fact that "let
> them eat cake" isn't a MA quote (the teacher could have been the one
> who got that wrong), it would require a complete lack of understanding
> or intellectual capacity in order to come to the conclusion that MA
> was a nice person who wanted to give people cake.
Yes, there's too much inconsistency in her role. As oft suggested by
others, I suspect the various writers had highly variable understanding of
her character, and tended to zero in on the comic potential without regard
to character development.
I think there was already a fairly lengthy discussion about what was meant
about letting them eat cake - I believe it was most likely built from old
French law that bakeries offer higher quality items for the price of bread
whenever the bread supply ran out. However, I doubt even the teacher had
heard of that. I sure wouldn't expect Cordy to know it. It's useful though
in recognizing that the quote may indicate lack of understanding more so
than disdain. (From that point of view, Cordy does accurately latch onto
Marie Antoinette's sense of puzzlement over the problem.) It also serves to
point out that without such knowledge, the words of the quote are actually
kind of odd. Why talk of cake? It's been many years since I covered it in
school, but I think I remember there being discussion about what the heck it
meant. I wouldn't be surprised if many people initially took it to mean
Marie Antoinette was personally offering cake as replacement for bread.
When young and first confronted with an idea, strange notions tend to arise.
Still, that part of her comments was not Cordy at her best. What's more
interesting to me is simply identifying with Marie Antoinette. Cordy's self
centered viewpoint, her personal Queen C identity, would naturally and
uniquely get her to stand in a queen's shoes - and be blinded to the more
natural viewpoint. The thing is, that's a pretty accurate description of
the circumstances of the quote. (Assuming Marie actually said it.) What
makes it so provocative from a historical sense is that it demonstrates how
far removed from reality French royalty was. Kind of a nice metaphor for
Cordy's distance from the normal kids at school.
It's Cordy's perspective more so than lack of intelligence that causes her
to misunderstand the significance of the quote. Yet even so, it's a
perspective that most would miss. The usual would be to identify with how
it sounds to the starving masses.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1181543236.7...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > other hand, are just stupid. Again disregarding the fact that "let
> > them eat cake" isn't a MA quote (the teacher could have been the one
> > who got that wrong), it would require a complete lack of understanding
> > or intellectual capacity in order to come to the conclusion that MA
> > was a nice person who wanted to give people cake.
> Yes, there's too much inconsistency in her role. As oft suggested by
> others, I suspect the various writers had highly variable understanding of
> her character, and tended to zero in on the comic potential without regard
> to character development.
She wouldn't be the only comedic-leaning main character that the
writers had that problem with.
That actually mostly works from a perspective standpoint - the idea
that in identifying with the royalty (and as others have pointed out,
royalty losing its hold on things, as Cordelia is starting to in LTM)
she has the same kind of blind spots. I think I can stop complaining
about that scene now. Well done.
As far as the rest goes, it seems straightforward to me - what's so
complicated? The princess in the story who says the line has no
conception of how the Third Estate lives. Her line demonstrates that
she's so far removed from reality that she doesn't comprehend the
notion of people starving. That's the joke/point. It's a simple
satricial anecdote about ignorance (not malice, or compassion, or
anything else).
-AOQ
~for the record, the first written example of "let them eat cake"
comes from Rousseau's _Confessions_, written in 1766 (before Marie
Antionette was queen; she was ten years old at the time). The story
is believed to have been floating around before that~
William George Ferguson
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 11, 2:51 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1181543236.7...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> > Her comments about Marie Antionette, on the
>> > other hand, are just stupid. Again disregarding the fact that "let
>> > them eat cake" isn't a MA quote (the teacher could have been the one
>> > who got that wrong), it would require a complete lack of understanding
>> > or intellectual capacity in order to come to the conclusion that MA
>> > was a nice person who wanted to give people cake.
>
>> Yes, there's too much inconsistency in her role. As oft suggested by
>> others, I suspect the various writers had highly variable understanding of
>> her character, and tended to zero in on the comic potential without regard
>> to character development.
>
>She wouldn't be the only comedic-leaning main character that the
>writers had that problem with.
<cough>Xander</cough>
Of course, there the biggest offender was Whedon. He very consciously
funnied up the role, and disposed of a lot of Xander's development, becuase
he felt fans were taking Xander too seriously, when he wanted him to be
about the funny.
>As far as the rest goes, it seems straightforward to me - what's so
>complicated? The princess in the story who says the line has no
>conception of how the Third Estate lives. Her line demonstrates that
>she's so far removed from reality that she doesn't comprehend the
>notion of people starving. That's the joke/point. It's a simple
>satricial anecdote about ignorance (not malice, or compassion, or
>anything else).
Just a minor correction. She was removed from their (the poor people's)
reality. She seemed to have a good understanding of her own reality (and
one really isn't more 'real' than the other).
>-AOQ
>~for the record, the first written example of "let them eat cake"
>comes from Rousseau's _Confessions_, written in 1766 (before Marie
>Antionette was queen; she was ten years old at the time). The story
>is believed to have been floating around before that~
Kind of like [famous possibly gay male] and the [small furry animal]. I
had heard versions of the story over a decade before I ever heard of
Richard Gere, and it is undoubtedly much older than that. (I think the
first version I heard involved Liberace, but I'd also heard it about Tyrone
Power, I'm sure there was likely a version about Rock Hudson, far as that
goes).
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)