AOQ Review 1-8: "I Robot... You Jane"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
(or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
Writers: Ashley Gable and Thomas A. Swyden
Director: Stephen Posey
I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about the
difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
just ridiculous - it's stupid.
Continuity and consistency may not be Joss Whedon's strong points,
but I do expect a decent show to maintain some kind of standards. One
or two flaws or hiccups are okay. A heaping helping of quibbles is not
okay. A partial list from "Robot":
1) The series' seeming desire to give every one of its main
characters an episode where they transform into a moron when they meet
someone interesting. (I'm warning you now, show, if you fuck with
Giles next episode, I'm going to start seeing other DVDs.)
2) Giving us both the long overdrawn Italian (?) opening, and then
Giles explaining the whole plot again half an hour later. We got it
the first time, move on.
3) The fact that Sunnydale High is basically a death trap at this point
and no one seems to care.
4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going to
die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
5) People dictating IM conversations out loud, and that dumb robotic
voice that recites Malak's comments. And no, I don't care whether
those things are TV convention, thanks for asking.
6) The glacially slow pace at which our heroes figure out what's
going on while ambling back and forth between the same three locations.
7) Malak's ridiculously selective control of computer systems: he can
sinisterly flip on computers when you walk into the room, but he
doesn't notice people casting the e-spells needed to contain him.
8) That stupid-looking giant robot body, and the fact that Malak stays
trapped in it for no real reason other than that someone decided the
show needed another action sequence.
And that's just off the top of my head. Again, one or two of them
alone wouldn't necessarily sink an episode, but seeing them all so
close together hurts. I'm trying to decide whether IRYJ suffers more
from being flawed or just from being boring. Some of each, though.
If IRYJ has a bright side, it comes mostly in the scenes between Giles
and That Awful Calendar Woman. Calendar is a good counter to Giles'
old-fashioned ways, a reminder that the occult weirdos have changed
with the times and joined the information superhighway the same as
everyone else. The various discussions about the computer age, the
smell of books, fears about the death of face-to-face conversation, and
so on transform a personality quirk into an explanation of Giles'
philosophy of life. I always like these flashes of personality from
our beloved librarian, since he's the one who has to fight the
hardest to avoid becoming either a walking plot device or a
stock-character. As far as this particular episode goes, Calendar's
"I know," is the most successful fade-to-another-scene suspense
moment. Is she going to be one of Malak's minions, or has Giles
found himself an ally? And the scenes involving making a circle
("that's more of a line") to contain a demon, over the internet,
are the only times IRYJ makes the most of the comedic possibilities of
its plot. More ridiculous and less stupid than the rest of the show.
Anything else worth noting? Um... no Cordelia, yet again. A few good
lines from Xander ("I was planning to be very witty tonight;" "I
got to hit someone!"). At least Willow's Spidey-Sense does start
tingling eventually, so it's not the character assassination it could
have been. And the silent fade-out at the end is a nice change of
pace. And that's it, really.
So....
One-sentence summary: Other than Giles/Calendar, nothing to see here.
AOQ rating: Weak
[Season One ratings so far:
1) "Welcome To The Hellmouth" - Good
2) "The Harvest" - Decent
3) "Witch" - Excellent
4) "Teacher's Pet" - Decent
5) "Never Kill A Boy On The First Date" - Decent
6) "The Pack" - Excellent
7) "Angel" - Good
8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak]
MBan...@gmail.com
it again and I've got to say, IMHO it IS the worst. The premise was
terrible, Willow being so easily taken in by an online predator, the
lame voice overs, etc... it's just bad all around.
The one positive thing I have to say about this episode is that at
least it will always be remembered on top 10 lists ranking the "worst
of" Buffy.
Vanya6724
computer technology looks (more and more every year) and the cheap
synthesizer soundtrack. Not a good introduction to Buffy
> 3) The fact that Sunnydale High is basically a death trap at this point
> and no one seems to care.
This is one quibble I take issue with. Don't get too logical. If you
start going down this path you'll start wondering why the hell people
stay in Sunnydale in the first place. In defense of the show the
writers realize this premise is ridiculous and will soon make a number
of funny metajokes around this very topic.
Jan Kalin
Yup, right at place 2, just behind Doublemeat Palace. For anyone
interested (and who by a staggering coincidence hasn't yet seen it)
there's a web site with a ranking of Buffy episodes compiled from many
lists (1700 from what I've gathered) http://www.phi-phenomenon.org/buffy/
Excellent analyis and comments.
--
/"\ Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
\ / http://charm.zag.si/eng/, email: "name dot surname AT zag dot si"
X ASCII ribbon campaign against HTML in mail and postings.
/ \ I'm a .signature virus. Copy me to help me spread.
eli...@gmail.com
Season 1 is the introduction/foreword. We're introduced to the
characters and gicven a tiny bit of plot. Sadly the editor never really
looked at it, and therefore it is riddled with spelling mistakes and
grammatical errors, which makes it hard to read. Once you start on the
book 'proper', most of these problems disappear, and even when they pop
up, the story is usually so absorbing that they're only a minor
irritant. Whether you like the story is of course another matter
altogether - but don't dismiss it before you've watched S2!
William George Ferguson
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season One, Episode 8: "I Robot... You Jane"
>(or "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't view that")
>Writers: Ashley Gable and Thomas A. Swyden
>Director: Stephen Posey
>
>I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about the
>difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
>SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
>absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
>logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
>gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
>But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
>just ridiculous - it's stupid.
>
>Continuity and consistency may not be Joss Whedon's strong points,
>but I do expect a decent show to maintain some kind of standards. One
>or two flaws or hiccups are okay. A heaping helping of quibbles is not
>okay. A partial list from "Robot":
I have a theory, which is mine, hereinafter known as 'my theory'. All
these things aren't what bother you about the episode. It's the
structure and story. The thing is, when the structure and story (and
performance) don't hold you ('you' meaning anyone) your attention wanders
and you notice these things, which are actually there in most episodes.
When the story and structure (and performace) is strong, you might notice
these things, but they won't really bother you if you do.
>4) Supporting characters who may as well be wearing "I'm going to
>die" T-shirts. _Red_ shirts.
This is a good example of the above. There is probably not an episode of
a crime/horror/thriller show where I can't point to someone and dub them
'look at me quick because I'm dead by the second act'. That's certainly
true of Buffy, and equally true of other shows in the genre. The thing
is, when it bothers one is when the show itself isn't keeping you
interested enough not to notice (or at least care, I'll admit that I
always notice).
>7) Malak's ridiculously selective control of computer systems: he can
>sinisterly flip on computers when you walk into the room, but he
>doesn't notice people casting the e-spells needed to contain him.
Hey! You didn't even notice the multiple Buffy birthdates.
>8) That stupid-looking giant robot body, and the fact that Malak stays
>trapped in it for no real reason other than that someone decided the
>show needed another action sequence.
>
>And that's just off the top of my head. Again, one or two of them
>alone wouldn't necessarily sink an episode, but seeing them all so
>close together hurts. I'm trying to decide whether IRYJ suffers more
>from being flawed or just from being boring. Some of each, though.
The flaws are always there, the boring brings them out.
>If IRYJ has a bright side, it comes mostly in the scenes between Giles
>and That Awful Calendar Woman. Calendar is a good counter to Giles'
>old-fashioned ways, a reminder that the occult weirdos have changed
>with the times and joined the information superhighway the same as
>everyone else. The various discussions about the computer age, the
>smell of books, fears about the death of face-to-face conversation, and
>so on transform a personality quirk into an explanation of Giles'
>philosophy of life. I always like these flashes of personality from
>our beloved librarian, since he's the one who has to fight the
>hardest to avoid becoming either a walking plot device or a
>stock-character. As far as this particular episode goes, Calendar's
>"I know," is the most successful fade-to-another-scene suspense
>moment. Is she going to be one of Malak's minions, or has Giles
>found himself an ally? And the scenes involving making a circle
>("that's more of a line") to contain a demon, over the internet,
>are the only times IRYJ makes the most of the comedic possibilities of
>its plot. More ridiculous and less stupid than the rest of the show.
>
>Anything else worth noting? Um... no Cordelia, yet again. A few good
>lines from Xander ("I was planning to be very witty tonight;" "I
>got to hit someone!"). At least Willow's Spidey-Sense does start
>tingling eventually, so it's not the character assassination it could
>have been. And the silent fade-out at the end is a nice change of
>pace. And that's it, really.
As I've said before, even the bad eps have good lines in them. The end
scene with Buffy and Xander consoling Willow by pointing out their own
terrible taste in dates (a vampire, a preying mantis), ending with the
comedic line that they suddenly realize isn't all that funny, is one of
the keeper moments on the series.
>One-sentence summary: Other than Giles/Calendar, nothing to see here.
>
>AOQ rating: Weak
>[Season One ratings so far:
>1) "Welcome To The Hellmouth" - Good
>2) "The Harvest" - Decent
>3) "Witch" - Excellent
>4) "Teacher's Pet" - Decent
>5) "Never Kill A Boy On The First Date" - Decent
>6) "The Pack" - Excellent
>7) "Angel" - Good
>8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak]
Hmm, I went back and looked at my original ratings, from about 7 years
ago (I didn't find GEOS tv ratings until season 2, so they were
retroactive ratings). Our main point of disagreement seems to be The
Pack, which I rated much lower than you did. If it's any comfort, I
rated 3 of the next 4 episodes better than 9 out of 10, with one of those
a 10. For comparison, I rated 4 of the first 8 episodes less than 8 out
of 10, with a low of 5.5 (NKABOTFD).
One more thing, even the strongest Buffy fans will admit there are some
bumps along the road, we just disagree on which episodes are the bumps.
5.5 is not my lowest rated Buffy ep, though it is in a 3-way tie for 4th.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
kenm47
about this episode when it aired, and I don't know how much my
rewatching of it recently has been affected from my knowledge of what
comes in the rest of the season if not the rest of the series.
You have to remember I am the one (only one?) who insists there are no
bad episodes in the first three sesons, only some that are not as good
as others. What follows are AFAIK my thoughts not corroborated by
anyone connected with the show.
First: This is another homage episode, IMO, this time to The Lawnmower
Man, maybe even The Forbin Project. As such I think they did an OK job
translating it to the Buffy-verse and making it a demon and a clever
way to get him into the machine. After that, he is a demon after all,
and clearly capable of using magic to get feeble humans under his
control. We saw in the intro he could get folk to stand still, not
defend themselves, and let him kill them. That's pretty powerful mojo!
In addition it was a comment on computers, and a cautionary tale on
issues concerning online hookups that were pretty much just getting
publicity in '97. One has to remember then was then, now is now; yet
this is still a problem even today with adults luring kids into bad
situations. TV expressing healthy paranoia does not bother me that
much.
Second: It's a Willow-centric episode. What could be bad? Well, we love
Willow, and we don't like seeing her let her guard down and fall for
the demon. We figure she's too smart and too strong willed. Well,
ultimately she snaps out of it when Moloch fumbles with an IM attack on
Buffy, and proves us right. We just don't like seeing our girl (and she
was always more our girl than unattainable Buffy) acting so "girlish"
for want of a better word. We're jealous and that jealousy colors our
view of the ep.
Third: I loved Jenny Calendar (That Dreadful Calendar Woman) as lonely
stuffy Giles' incipient love interest. She's smart. She's pretty. She
flirts the stuffing out of him. She's an adult and an ally. She got
great lines too.
"Giles: I'm, I'm just gonna stay and clean up a little. I'll, uh, I'll
be back in the middle ages. (starts up the stairs)
Ms. Calendar: Did you ever leave?"
And her "I know" was very satisfying at the time, taking Giles off the
hook as some sole adult kook running around with the kids for who knows
why.
She also was the cause of:
"Ms. Calendar: Hmm. (to Buffy and Xander) You're here again? Kids
really
dig the library, don't cha?
Buffy: We're literary!
Xander: To read makes our speaking English good."
Fourth: Of course kids die in Sunnydale High. Of course those deaths
are covered up or "explained" in some fashion. I thought the deaths
here particularly disturbing. as was the one kid carving Moloch's name
on his arm.
Fifth: Buffy defeats a clearly superior physical foe once again with
her mind, assessing the battleground and tricking Moloch into
destroying himself.
Sixth: The end scene:
"Buffy: Let's face it: none of us are ever gonna have a happy, normal
relationship.
Xander: We're doomed!
Willow: Yeah!
<They all laugh. Their laughter quickly becomes nervous and stops. Only
the fountain can be heard as they each consider their plight.>"
I think I'm done for now. This episode is just not all that bad. It's
just not as good as others.
Ken (Brooklyn)
EGK
>OK, I'll take the other side. I do say I don't recallexactly how I felt
>about this episode when it aired, and I don't know how much my
>rewatching of it recently has been affected from my knowledge of what
>comes in the rest of the season if not the rest of the series.
>
>You have to remember I am the one (only one?) who insists there are no
>bad episodes in the first three sesons, only some that are not as good
>as others. What follows are AFAIK my thoughts not corroborated by
>anyone connected with the show.
I think season 1 sometimes gets a bad rap in context to the series as a
whole. There had to be something good about it to attract the fandom in the
first place. For me it was probably the ongoing character development and
humorous dialog.
It comes down to the fact I really liked the characters. That's something
that I can't say in seasons 6 and 7 and I think you're probably in the same
boat. That's why the worst episodes in the earlier years seem better to us
than most of the last two seasons.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
kenm47
avoided. I'm tryin to avoid bringing up later season thoughts in these
responses. I don't want to cause AOQ any preconceptions. Let him form
his own opinions.
Ken (Brooklyn)
EGK
Oops. I didn't think I put in spoilers. Just an opinion of why I can even
like I Robot...
In that case you shouldn't have brought up the fact you don't think any
episodes in the earlier years are bad. :)
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> 6) "The Pack" - Excellent
> 8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak
I've always had a bit of a perverse taste in my Buffy episodes. I tend
to like ones that few other people do, while not liking many of the
popular ones. This is a case in point. 'The Pack' has always been one
of my least favourite season 1 episodes, and 'I Robot--You Jane' has
always been one of my favourites.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
kenm47
any
episodes in the earlier years are bad. :) "
You're probably right. I can't control myself. :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
arnold kim
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-2EE010...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <1137505796.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 6) "The Pack" - Excellent
>
>> 8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak
>
> I've always had a bit of a perverse taste in my Buffy episodes. I tend
> to like ones that few other people do, while not liking many of the
> popular ones. This is a case in point. 'The Pack' has always been one
> of my least favourite season 1 episodes, and 'I Robot--You Jane' has
> always been one of my favourites.
I've noticed about "The Pack" that it's probably one of the most divisive
episodes of the series when it comes to viewer opinion. Most people either
love it or think it's one of the worst episodes of the high school years.
For a good while I thought it was the latter (Xander acting like a bully,
possession or not, is not something I find entertaining) but I've since
warmed up on it a bit.
Arnold Kim
Mike Zeares
Don Sample wrote:
>
> I've always had a bit of a perverse taste in my Buffy episodes. [...] 'The Pack' has always been one
> of my least favourite season 1 episodes, and 'I Robot--You Jane' has
> always been one of my favourites.
For me, it falls under "it's so bad it's good." It's endlessly
snarkable. One of my favorite targets is how Buffy gets across town on
foot faster than a guy in a car.
The ep does have the usual S1 good dialogue moments. Plus Buffy's best
hair day ever.
Looking back, the highschool metaphors really weren't very subtle in
S1, were they?
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
lists. Its weakness was recognized even back in S1, when there wasn't
a lot to compare it to yet.
It does have one thing I like -- Buffy wears an Ugly Coat. One of the
ugliest, in fact. I usually place it #2 (#1 is the tiger-striped
hoodie jacket she wore in NKABOTFD. She got bonus points for wearing
the hood up). I've always wanted to do a web site on those.
-- Mike Zeares, Keeper of Buffy's Ugly Coat Collection
Daniel Damouth
others that it does have some classic lines ("To read makes our
speaking English good") and scenes (the final shot). Also, Willow was
so darned cute, and, of course, Jenny Calendar brightens up any episode
for me.
I just can't get past the awfulness of the plot and how it was
executed.
"I'm jacked in... I'm jacked in... I'm jacked in..."
Ugh.
-Dan Damouth
Carlos Moreno
> 8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak]
Hmmm... Here begin our disagreements -- kind of (we had been
quite in sync so far).
Ok, I agree that this is maybe better than the rating I gave
this episode after the first time -- probably even after the
second time I watched it.
But right now my feeling is that this is one of those episodes
in which there are the bad things that stay there in our memory
and are the first to pop up when we think of the episode; I
remember when I had seen it only once, the *very only thing*
that I could remember from the episode was the absolutely
stupid and lame fight against the robot.
You're also right that Willow being manipulated that way that
long really crosses the line...
Ok...
But...
I actually did find an amazing idea the notion of a demon
that was trapped in a book and that would be liberated if the
book is read, at which point it would possess the person who
read it -- when the book was read *by a computer scanner*,
then the computer (network) became possessed ... Not sure
if the idea is original (as a sci-fi fan, I can tell you
I haven't seen anything similar in any movie or TV show
ever), but I did find it amazing enough to compensate for
all the bad things...
But mostly...
Oh my God!!! Giles' speech about the smell of the books was
one of the most spectacular things I have ever seen on TV !!!
Amazingly good speech, and amazingly beautiful way to make
the viewer understand who Giles is and how he thinks and
feels about things. Truly a masterpiece, I think! (though
"I can't believe you of all people are trying to Scully me"
also does a very good job at explaining who Giles is and how
he thinks!)
The funny thing is, that speech happens *after* the stupid
robot fight (I think it is indeed the very ending of the
episode, right?), and for some reason, what pops up when
thinking about the episode, is the stupid fight!!
Oh well... As the brilliant Robert Heinlein once said:
"I have never learned anything from someone that always
agreed with me" -- it was about time that yout comments
started to show some disagreements with my personal
preferences!! :-)
Keep looking forward to future reviews!
And NO, please, DO NOT stop watching BtVS... Trust me,
you'll regret it!
Carlos
--
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I have a theory, which is mine, hereinafter known as 'my theory'. All
> these things aren't what bother you about the episode. It's the
> structure and story. The thing is, when the structure and story (and
> performance) don't hold you ('you' meaning anyone) your attention wanders
> and you notice these things, which are actually there in most episodes.
> When the story and structure (and performace) is strong, you might notice
> these things, but they won't really bother you if you do.
That seems like a fair assessment overall in the sense that the more
entertaining something is, the more forgiving I am of the flaws. But I
would add that it goes the other way too -- when you notice a whole
bunch of problems happening so close together, it pulls you out of the
show and hampers its enjoyment/entertainment value.
> There is probably not an episode of
> a crime/horror/thriller show where I can't point to someone and dub them
> 'look at me quick because I'm dead by the second act'. That's certainly
> true of Buffy, and equally true of other shows in the genre. The thing
> is, when it bothers one is when the show itself isn't keeping you
> interested enough not to notice (or at least care, I'll admit that I
> always notice).
Now, I haven't found this to be the case with BTVS. Other characters
whose main role is to die (i.e. Jesse, Dr. Gregory) haven't always been
clearly doomed even thought it was a possibility, and characters who
seem likely to die (i.e. Owen) can end up surviving. So there's
usually some level of uncertainty going in. Not so with the kids in
this episode; there was no doubt whatsoever for me that they were gone.
-AOQ
alphakitten
When ranking, don't forget this gem!
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season5/vidcaps/noplacelikehome/noplace02.jpg
~Angel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> What follows are AFAIK my thoughts not corroborated by
> anyone connected with the show.
> Second: It's a Willow-centric episode. What could be bad? Well, we love
> Willow, and we don't like seeing her let her guard down and fall for
> the demon. We figure she's too smart and too strong willed. Well,
> ultimately she snaps out of it when Moloch fumbles with an IM attack on
> Buffy, and proves us right. We just don't like seeing our girl (and she
> was always more our girl than unattainable Buffy) acting so "girlish"
> for want of a better word. We're jealous and that jealousy colors our
> view of the ep.
Interesting theory, although I don't really know what being "girlish"
has to do with anything (Willow's been girlish before in a way that
made sense; i.e. helping Buffy pick out an outfit). I think the
problem is simpler than any special feelings about Willow in
particular, though; when we want to like or respect a character, we
don't enjoy seeing them look like a dumbass. The show is asking us to
identify or sympathize with a character who proves easy prey for
cyber-perverts everywhere, and will allow her academic and social life
to collapse because of a crush. This behavior is not only stupid, it's
also not consistent with the Willow as she's been portrayed thus far.
You may recall that I wasn't very forgiving of those godawful
Xander-centered scenes in "Teacher's Pet" either. Willow comes off
marginally better than he did, but she's still portrayed as gullible
and naive to the point of unsympatheticness, and she's one of the
characters who the show clearly wants us to sympathize with.
My theory for why a lot of people don't like IRYJ is that it's just not
very good.
> Fifth: Buffy defeats a clearly superior physical foe once again with
> her mind, assessing the battleground and tricking Moloch into
> destroying himself.
Been there, done that.
I appreciate the attempts to keep these threads spoiler-free. I don't
really worry too much about people's general opinions, but I guess I do
like to at least come up with a rating before I know what anyone else
thinks. It seems minor enough considering that the NG is full of
topics with spoilers right in the header... (Well, I was aware of that
risk when I started this gig.)
-AOQ
alphakitten
Jan Kalin wrote:
> In article <1137511412.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> MBan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>IRYJ is arguably the worst Buffy episode ever made. I recently watched
>>it again and I've got to say, IMHO it IS the worst. The premise was
>>terrible, Willow being so easily taken in by an online predator, the
>>lame voice overs, etc... it's just bad all around.
>>
>>The one positive thing I have to say about this episode is that at
>>least it will always be remembered on top 10 lists ranking the "worst
>>of" Buffy.
>
>
> Yup, right at place 2, just behind Doublemeat Palace. For anyone
> interested (and who by a staggering coincidence hasn't yet seen it)
> there's a web site with a ranking of Buffy episodes compiled from many
> lists (1700 from what I've gathered) http://www.phi-phenomenon.org/buffy/
> Excellent analyis and comments.
>
There's also this - http://www.rankitall.com/show.php?table=Buffy
IR - YJ is currently #136. (Spoilerific, keep away AoQ!)
~Angel
MBan...@gmail.com
>very good.
Exactly.
Silt
there (or down there I guess) with Beer Bad and Doublemeat
Palace...but not quite there with my least favorite of all time...Inca
Mummy Girl.
Though I'd still rather re-watch those "bad" episodes of Buffy than
some of the crap they consider good on today's TV.
Silt
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> My theory for why a lot of people don't like IRYJ is that it's just not
> very good.
Works for me.
> I appreciate the attempts to keep these threads spoiler-free. [...]
> It seems minor enough considering that the NG is full of
> topics with spoilers right in the header...
I hear ya. That was exactly why I quit this NG back in S6 when I
decided to go spoiler-free.
I've seen some other people do what you're doing in the last year or
so. The hardest thing for me is to keep from saying anything about the
next ep, especially if it is generally considered much better (or
worse) than the one you just watched. I will say this -- the next
episode, "The Puppet Show," is the first one I watched all the way
through. I kept forgetting the show was on before that. I think I'll
start watching these with you, so I can have my favorite quotes and
stuff ready to go after you post your review. Plus it's been over a
year since my last marathon anyway.
-- Mike Zeares
George W Harris
:IRYJ also lists on my list of least favorite episodes....it's right up
:there (or down there I guess) with Beer Bad and Doublemeat
:Palace...but not quite there with my least favorite of all time...Inca
:Mummy Girl.
Ah, but IMG has the introduction of two great
characters - one regular, one recurring.
Plus, that's one smokin' mummy.
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Matthias Wolf
>It does have one thing I like -- Buffy wears an Ugly Coat. One of the
>ugliest, in fact. I usually place it #2 (#1 is the tiger-striped
>hoodie jacket she wore in NKABOTFD. She got bonus points for wearing
>the hood up). I've always wanted to do a web site on those.
Giles: I suppose you could, um, tail Dave, see if he's up to
something.
Buffy: Follow Dave? What, in dark glasses and a trench coat? Please.
Cut to Buffy wearing a coat and, yes, sunglasses. These kind of cuts,
which either emphasize or counter a previous dialogue, are very
typical for early Buffy.
--
Matthias Wolf
Matthias Wolf
>I
>remember when I had seen it only once, the *very only thing*
>that I could remember from the episode was the absolutely
>stupid and lame fight against the robot.
Oh, but the fight is not lame. Once again Buffy outsmarts her
opponent, rather than taking him down by her physical strength. And
don't forget Willow's part in the fight (Malcolm! Remember me? Your
girlfriend? while hitting him with a fire extinguisher).
If you want to talk about lame fights, what about Buffy's fight
against The Tree in the teaser of the previous episode. Buffy
paralyzed, waiting to be bitten, only to be rescued by Angel after the
credits. Now *that* is something that is both lame and makes no sense.
>You're also right that Willow being manipulated that way that
>long really crosses the line...
I don't think so. Willow has no experience in dealing with guys, if
someone shows interest in her, she is excited and almost stops being
reasonable. But only almost. As soon as Moloch slips while trying to
turn her against Buffy, she notices it.
Besides, the "elderly Dutch woman" is only one part of the story...
>I actually did find an amazing idea the notion of a demon
>that was trapped in a book and that would be liberated if the
>book is read, at which point it would possess the person who
>read it -- when the book was read *by a computer scanner*,
>then the computer (network) became possessed ...
...and that's the other part. That's what Giles and Jenny are arguing
about. How does a new technology affect our society. Is it good, is it
bad? Are we just doomed to repeat our old mistakes in a more efficient
and therefore more dangerous way?
>But mostly...
>
>Oh my God!!! Giles' speech about the smell of the books was
>one of the most spectacular things I have ever seen on TV !!!
>Amazingly good speech, and amazingly beautiful way to make
>the viewer understand who Giles is and how he thinks and
>feels about things. Truly a masterpiece, I think!
I agree. And please also note how this scene ends (corkscrew). Once
again the show immediately counters a serious moment with a funny one,
thereby not only *not* diminishing the impact of Giles' words, but
instead intensifying it.
--
Matthias Wolf
KenM47
kenm47
Ugh."
But that goes back to Neuromancer by William Gibson
http://www.epinions.com/book-review-4777-78BD87E-381E0691-bd4
Just playing on a seminal tome. Just another pop culture reference.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
has to do with anything (Willow's been girlish before in a way that
made sense; i.e. helping Buffy pick out an outfit)."
Ah but here we have Willow acting in the stereotypical young girl
romantic manner (which is not all that far from Willow seizing the day
in WttH and being lured out of the Bronze by the vampire).
"The show is asking us to
identify or sympathize with a character who proves easy prey for
cyber-perverts everywhere, and will allow her academic and social life
to collapse because of a crush."
Demon magic, man. If anything, our Willow proves to be made of sterner
stuff than the two make geeks (even if one does finally snap when
Moloch tries to get Buffy killed in the shower). Willow recognizes that
there's something wrong all on her own when Moloch overplays his hand.
She's not the typical cyber victim after all; she's Willow.
AND we all knew Moloch wasn't good enough for her :-)
"Willow comes off
marginally better than he did, but she's still portrayed as gullible
and naive to the point of unsympatheticness, and she's one of the
characters who the show clearly wants us to sympathize with."
I think you're overlooking that Willow has been presented as an
outsider who in part wants to lose that, and who wants a boyfriend (if
not Xander, then she's oen to other ideas). She's still a "normal"
non-Slayer high school sophomore. That element of her personality is
what puts her in danger here, and as much as we scream at the TV "Don't
go there" Willow has to make some mistakes on her own as she grows. She
has faults. She's not perfect. We love her anyway.
"My theory for why a lot of people don't like IRYJ is that it's just
not
very good."
But it's not very bad, or even bad IMO. I'll accept not "very good" but
"good" is OK for me with a TV series this consistent.
"> Fifth: Buffy defeats a clearly superior physical foe once again with
> her mind, assessing the battleground and tricking Moloch into
> destroying himself.
Been there, done that."
Hey! it's TV. Then a new show trying to get more viewers every week. A
certain repetition is to be expected. Certain "themes" will be
emphasized. Buffy's ability to think her way out of a dangerous
situation is one.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Interesting theory, although I don't really know what being "girlish"
> has to do with anything (Willow's been girlish before in a way that
> made sense; i.e. helping Buffy pick out an outfit)."
>
> Ah but here we have Willow acting in the stereotypical young girl
> romantic manner (which is not all that far from Willow seizing the day
> in WttH and being lured out of the Bronze by the vampire).
Ah. Well, that goes to show that the mere thought of Willow acting
"girlish" isn't the problem - I thought it worked great in WttH.
> Demon magic, man.
See, that ties back into my original criticism. The writers know that
even if Willow could be intrigued by a cyber-stalker, she wouldn't go
so totally nuts. But rather than writing the plots to match the
characters... well, they won't be stopped in their desire to have at
least one episode in which each hero is transformed into a gibbering
idiot, so the supernatural is used as a crutch to "justify" a weak
plot.
And I've given Wil all the credit she deserves (and no more) for
eventually getting vaguely suspicious, days after she should have.
> But it's not very bad, or even bad IMO. I'll accept not "very good" but
> "good" is OK for me with a TV series this consistent.
Yes, it's not completely bad - it's clearly "Weak," which is one rating
above "Bad." ;-)
-AOQ
kenm47
rating
above "Bad." ;-)
-AOQ"
May you never see one you think of as "bad" then. I'm still having fun
even if we see things differently. Like I said, nice to have a reason
to rewatch yet again. Ah, nostalgia (is 9 years ago still considered
nostalgic?) I guess I've gotten mellower with the passage of time.
Onwards and Upwards to "The Puppet Show"! :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
rrh...@acme.com
You've mentioned before your 'no bad episodes S1-3' thesis. I haven't
responded to it partly because it is so subjective. You like an
episode which I don't (or the other way around): there's no right or
wrong here. I also haven't responded because I haven't made the effort
to go back and cite specific episodes I didn't like in the early years.
But since someone else brought it up, what the heck: this episode is
one that I might well skip as I am going through S1.
Richard R. Hershberger
Stephen Tempest
>This behavior is not only stupid, it's
>also not consistent with the Willow as she's been portrayed thus far.
...which is as a very intelligent but insecure and slightly naive
outsider, who's unhappy at the fact that she's never had a proper
boyfriend.
Personally I think it's entirely in character that Willow would go a
little crazy if it seemed like she was finally going to get what she's
always dreamed of - a proper relationship with someone cool and
exciting.
I'll agree with you on one point though - if she ever falls for the
same type of trick again, *that* would be out of character. She's
easily intelligent enough to learn from her mistakes...
Stephen
kenm47
Your call. I think you'll miss out on at least some golden moments,
some dialog, the intro of Jenny, but do what you want.
I'm not looking for affirmations, just enjoying the discussions. We all
have our own opinions.
Besides, there's only 12 eps for S1 anyway.
Ken (Brooklyn)
rrh...@acme.com
The introduction of Jenny is the main thing that would tempt me. I
have to admit Doublemeat Palace doesn't have that...
Daniel Damouth
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Point taken, but while I enjoyed Neuromancer, it was a mixture of pop
culture and fantasy then and that kind of thing is a cliche of bad sf
now. Gibson was computer illiterate and didn't even write the book on
a computer.
-Dan Damouth
KenM47
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > Ah but here we have Willow acting in the stereotypical young girl
> > romantic manner (which is not all that far from Willow seizing the day
> > in WttH and being lured out of the Bronze by the vampire).
News flash: teenage girls do stupid things. Even smart ones like
Willow.
> See, that ties back into my original criticism. The writers know that
> even if Willow could be intrigued by a cyber-stalker, she wouldn't go
> so totally nuts. But rather than writing the plots to match the
> characters... well, they won't be stopped in their desire to have at
> least one episode in which each hero is transformed into a gibbering
> idiot, so the supernatural is used as a crutch to "justify" a weak
> plot.
Now, this is the kind of criticism that I don't have time for. "The
writers deliberately try to sabotage the characters." Puh-lease. If a
character does something dumb, it doesn't mean it's "out of character"
(another pet peeve of mine). Sometimes it just means they did
something dumb. Attributing nefarious motives to the writers severely
diminishes the value of your criticism. IMHO.
> Yes, it's not completely bad - it's clearly "Weak," which is one rating
> above "Bad." ;-)
And yet, having said what I said above, at the end of the day I agree
with your rating. It's a weak ep. 'Nuff said.
-- Mike Zeares
Daniel Damouth
news:rmhts19hh7dje8cvq...@4ax.com:
> Perhaps cliche now, but less so in 1997?
In my opinion, it became a cliche rather quickly. Gibson's book
created an entire subgenre of science fiction.
-Dan Damouth
Arbitrar Of Quality
> News flash: teenage girls do stupid things. Even smart ones like
> Willow.
I feel a little tired of explaining that I'm not inherently opposed to
the idea of Willow being reckless with love. "Hellmouth" handled this
quite well. "Robot" didn't.
> > See, that ties back into my original criticism. The writers know that
> > even if Willow could be intrigued by a cyber-stalker, she wouldn't go
> > so totally nuts. But rather than writing the plots to match the
> > characters... well, they won't be stopped in their desire to have at
> > least one episode in which each hero is transformed into a gibbering
> > idiot, so the supernatural is used as a crutch to "justify" a weak
> > plot.
>
> Now, this is the kind of criticism that I don't have time for. "The
> writers deliberately try to sabotage the characters." Puh-lease. If a
> character does something dumb, it doesn't mean it's "out of character"
> (another pet peeve of mine). Sometimes it just means they did
> something dumb. Attributing nefarious motives to the writers severely
> diminishes the value of your criticism. IMHO.
I get a little flowery with word choice sometimes, so let's clarify;
this is not an accusation of anyone trying to hurt the show or be
"nefarious." But I think my point stands, which is that the fact that
Malcolm being a magical charisma/seduccer type highlights that Willow
wouldn't have acted the way she does without the supernatural aspect.
[I think I'm sensing the difference between magic as an integral part
of BTVS's universe versus magic as a plot device; the former makes for
better TV.] Now I don't know how the episode was put together, so I
can't accurately attribute motives, but the on-screen product very much
comes across as a desire to have Willow fall in love with a demon first
and foremost, and then twisting everything else in whatever way is
necessary to make that happen.
Any talk about motives is hyperbole. But members of the writing staff
do seem to think that it's entertaining to have a character, under the
influence a plot device, do extremely dumb things in the name of a
crush on something evil. I think that's a fair conclusion given that
1/4 of the episodes thus far have been, well, "Robot " or "Teacher's
Pet." I am not as entertained by this as they seem to be.
I don't understand why you don't like the phrase "out of character."
I'm sure it's overused, but surely you admit that characters in stories
sometimes behave in a manner inconsistent with past portrayals?
-AOQ
Carlos Moreno
>>6) "The Pack" - Excellent
>
>>8) "I Robot... You Jane" - Weak
>
> I've always had a bit of a perverse taste in my Buffy episodes. I tend
> to like ones that few other people do, while not liking many of the
> popular ones. This is a case in point. 'The Pack' has always been one
> of my least favourite season 1 episodes
Oh c'mon Don... Why do you (*) torture me!! :-)
"I can't believe that you of all people are trying to Scully me" and
that's one of your least favorite ones?!! I can no longer respect
you, man!! ;-)
(*) Insert word in reference to S5's "Crush" episode ;-) (you know
what I'm talking about!! :-))
Carlos
--
Don Sample
Carlos Moreno <moreno_at_mo...@mailinator.com> wrote:
All season 1 episodes have lines that are just as memorable.
Come on!
IR--YJ has:
Jenny: Oh, I know, our ways are strange to you, but soon you will
join us in the 20th century. With three whole years to spare!
Buffy: I can just tell somethingąs wrong. My spider sense is
tingling.
Giles: Your spider sense?
Buffy: Pop culture reference. Sorry.
Giles: Well, itąs been so nice talking to you.
Jenny: We were fighting.
Giles: Must do it again sometime. Bye, now.
Moloch: Right now a man in Beijing is transferring money to a Swiss
bank account for a contract on his motherąs life. *Good*
for him!
Willow: *Malcolm!* Remember me? Your *girlfriend?* **SMASH** Well,
I think itąs time we *break up!* **SMASH** Or maybe we can
still be *friends!*
Jenny: That's not where I dangle it.
Xander: We're doomed!
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
.
>
> Any talk about motives is hyperbole. But members of the writing staff
> do seem to think that it's entertaining to have a character, under the
> influence a plot device, do extremely dumb things in the name of a
> crush on something evil. I think that's a fair conclusion given that
> 1/4 of the episodes thus far have been, well, "Robot " or "Teacher's
> Pet." I am not as entertained by this as they seem to be.
I guess I'm hypersensitive to this because of years of reading all
sorts of accusations of malicious intent on the part of the writers.
People on this NG and elsewhere have accused the writers of outright
hatred of characters and/or actors, and have used these accusations to
justify their criticism of storylines that they don't personally like.
It gets tiresome. And, apparently, I'm still burned-out over old NG
wars, and should probably stick to silly comments about Buffy's hideous
wardrobe.
I do get what you're saying about Willow in this episode. I think it
was a case of the underlying "young people's problems" metaphor
overriding all else, rather than the writers thinking it would be
entertaining to have her act dumb. The show sometimes applied its
metaphors with anvils in S1. Joss was new at this, and it took some
time to get the tone right.
> I don't understand why you don't like the phrase "out of character."
> I'm sure it's overused, but surely you admit that characters in stories
> sometimes behave in a manner inconsistent with past portrayals?
"Overused" is putting in mildly.See above re: overexposure to annoying
arguments. It's often used to attack any action that a viewer doesn't
like. It leads to discussing the writer's competence instead of the
character's actions. Besides, real people act "out of character" all
the time. People are complicated and to inexplicable things for
incomprehensible motives.
Well, that's all my personal issues. I think I'm being very unfair to
you. You're hitting some of my old NG buttons that have lain dormant
for several years, and I'm falling back into old patterns as if I never
left the place. But that's not your fault. I should step back before
I have to reprise my old "Buffy Confessional" thread from S3 to confess
my sins agains fellow posters.
-- Mike Zeares
shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> I had a discussion with Mrs. Quality whilst watching this one about the
> difference between "ridiculous" and "stupid." As a fan of
> SF/Fantasy, I deal in ridiculous. Saying that a given premise is
> absurd is not a quality judgment, and it's nice to be able to suspend
> logic once in awhile. BTVS is fundamentally silly show even when it
> gets serious, and just about every premise could be called ridiculous.
> But 44 minutes of Willow obsessing over a demon she met online isn't
> just ridiculous - it's stupid.
>
I have to admit that IRYJ is a 'guilty pleasure' ep for me. I love it
even though I probably shouldn't. It's hokey and full of
inconsistencies but it's Willow-centric and I love Willow.
<snip list of inconsistencies>
I'll just comment on the portrayal of computers in this episode. I'm
nearly 39 (eek!) and I've worked in computing my whole adult life and
studied it before that - so over two decades. In all that time TV and
movie depictions of computers, what they can do and how they are used
have almost always been laughably inaccurate. It's only in the last few
years that this has improved to merely minor niggles. So, when in 1997,
IRYJ shows computers in the way they do on Buffy, it's about par for
the course. If I'd never seen a TV show or movie involving computers
I'd be wincing my way through it. Fortunately I had made my peace with
it and accepted it. Should I mention that one of my favourite movies of
the 80's is Weird Science?
> And that's just off the top of my head. Again, one or two of them
> alone wouldn't necessarily sink an episode, but seeing them all so
> close together hurts. I'm trying to decide whether IRYJ suffers more
> from being flawed or just from being boring. Some of each, though.
>
Flawed I'll give you but I wasn't bored. I found Willow's tentative
steps into the world of relationships and Buffy and Xander's reactions
fascinating. When Willow tells Buffy "Malcolm said you wouldn't
understand." and Buffy tartly replies "Malcom was right." I felt a
delightful frisson of conflict between good friends - probably for the
first time too.
> If IRYJ has a bright side, it comes mostly in the scenes between Giles
> and That Awful Calendar Woman. Calendar is a good counter to Giles'
> old-fashioned ways, a reminder that the occult weirdos have changed
> with the times and joined the information superhighway the same as
> everyone else. The various discussions about the computer age, the
> smell of books, fears about the death of face-to-face conversation, and
> so on transform a personality quirk into an explanation of Giles'
> philosophy of life. I always like these flashes of personality from
> our beloved librarian, since he's the one who has to fight the
> hardest to avoid becoming either a walking plot device or a
> stock-character.
Indeed. I said I love Willow. The fact is, and probably a major factor
in me becoming a fan, is that I love all four of the central characters
Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles. Giles definitely has more going on
that his stuffy exterior and his 'books smell' speech hints at how he
approaches the world, how something we might see as boring and stuffy,
is to him a passion. And his banter with Jenny Calendar is a lot of
fun.
<snip>
> And the silent fade-out at the end is a nice change of
> pace.
Best last moment of an episode ever. Well at least until the next great
last moment but that would be spoiling.
shuggie
Mike Zeares wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> .
> >
> > Any talk about motives is hyperbole. But members of the writing staff
> > do seem to think that it's entertaining to have a character, under the
> > influence a plot device, do extremely dumb things in the name of a
> > crush on something evil. I think that's a fair conclusion given that
> > 1/4 of the episodes thus far have been, well, "Robot " or "Teacher's
> > Pet." I am not as entertained by this as they seem to be.
>
> I guess I'm hypersensitive to this because of years of reading all
> sorts of accusations of malicious intent on the part of the writers.
One of the things I'm finding fascinating about AOQ's reviews is how
innocent little phrases trigger in me a desire to rant as they
re-awaken old NG battles. It's hard to resist the temptation to dump a
whole load of arguments about why such-and-such is wrong, but I think
it's a wee bit unfair since we've had years to build up these positions
and the corresponding arguments and evidence and he's had 9 episodes.
So I'm now trying to check myself when I feel the urge to do that.
shuggie
William George Ferguson wrote:
> On 17 Jan 2006 06:01:00 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
> >Continuity and consistency may not be Joss Whedon's strong points,
> >but I do expect a decent show to maintain some kind of standards. One
> >or two flaws or hiccups are okay. A heaping helping of quibbles is not
> >okay. A partial list from "Robot":
>
> I have a theory, which is mine, hereinafter known as 'my theory'. All
> these things aren't what bother you about the episode. It's the
> structure and story. The thing is, when the structure and story (and
> performance) don't hold you ('you' meaning anyone) your attention wanders
> and you notice these things, which are actually there in most episodes.
> When the story and structure (and performace) is strong, you might notice
> these things, but they won't really bother you if you do.
Ooh that sounds remarkably like *my* theory: People often say " "I
didn't like that ep because of that plot hole", but no-one ever said "I
loved that ep because it had no plot holes"
I will concede it's just possible you came up with your theory
independently.
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> There's also this - http://www.rankitall.com/show.php?table=Buffy
That site has some splendidly bonkers episode summaries (see in
particular Selfless).
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
exquisite witch peachy
> OK, I'll take the other side. I do say I don't recallexactly how I felt
> about this episode when it aired, and I don't know how much my
> rewatching of it recently has been affected from my knowledge of what
> comes in the rest of the season if not the rest of the series.
>
> You have to remember I am the one (only one?) who insists there are no
> bad episodes in the first three sesons, only some that are not as good
> as others.
You are the only one.
I personally insist there are no bad episodes of Buffy.
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
SNIP
Your criticism appears inconsistent. If magic is an integral part of the
Buffyverse, then how can the effects of magic on the characters be an
unacceptable plot device? Further, if it has been established that
Willow has a vulnerability for romance, then how is it "out of
character" for that vulnerability to persist from one episode to
another? People make the same mistakes over and over, only in new ways,
which is exactly what has happened here. She has retreated in the world
of cyber-romance after unfortunate real world events.
Frankly, if these sorts of things bother you, then you will be greatly
bothered by many episodes to come.
HWL
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Well, that's all my personal issues. I think I'm being very unfair to
> you. You're hitting some of my old NG buttons that have lain dormant
> for several years, and I'm falling back into old patterns as if I never
> left the place. But that's not your fault.
I think a wise man once suggested this strategy for times like these:
"repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax.'"
Anyway, sounds like that's not a unique problem. So I do appreciate
the input in general, but we'll do our best not to ignite any new or
old flamewars here.
-AOQ
Mike Zeares
shuggie wrote:
>
> One of the things I'm finding fascinating about AOQ's reviews is how
> innocent little phrases trigger in me a desire to rant as they
> re-awaken old NG battles.
I know! It's insane! AOQ is totally hitting my David Hines buttons.
Which means I'm going to alternate between sucking up to him and
flaming him.
> So I'm now trying to check myself when I feel the urge to do that.
Yup. Check myself before I wreck myself. ;-)
-- Mike Zeares (it's only a show, it's only a show, it's only a show...)
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> shuggie wrote:
>
> >
> > One of the things I'm finding fascinating about AOQ's reviews is how
> > innocent little phrases trigger in me a desire to rant as they
> > re-awaken old NG battles.
>
> I know! It's insane! AOQ is totally hitting my David Hines buttons.
> Which means I'm going to alternate between sucking up to him and
> flaming him.
Wait to see what happens in season 4. Hines lost me when he spent most
of his review effort on trying to make up new nicknames for <name
omitted>.
Mike Zeares
Don Sample wrote:
>
> Wait to see what happens in season 4. Hines lost me when he spent most
> of his review effort on trying to make up new nicknames for <name
> omitted>.
Yep, me too. And Hines was always going on about plot logic and show
structure, which is why AOQ reminds me of him.
-- Mike Zeares
Espen Schjønberg
> Flawed I'll give you but I wasn't bored.
Just poping in to say: IRYJ had _one_ flaw. The robot monster was not
cool, and this was a disappointment the first time I saw it.
It's a great episode!
In my opinion, one of the most consistently underrated ones.
--
Espen
MBB
news:1137505796.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> 1) The series' seeming desire to give every one of its main
> characters an episode where they transform into a moron when they meet
> someone interesting. (I'm warning you now, show, if you fuck with
> Giles next episode, I'm going to start seeing other DVDs.)
Well, Joss does hate dating and happy relationships. So maybe you've hit on
a hidden secret that he's been making them act like morons on purpose all
this time.
> 5) People dictating IM conversations out loud, and that dumb robotic
> voice that recites Malak's comments. And no, I don't care whether
> those things are TV convention, thanks for asking.
>
ROFLMAO!
And all these years, I've been jealouse that they already had speech-
recognition and text-to-speech programs back in the days that I still had a
286 :P
>
> If IRYJ has a bright side, it comes mostly in the scenes between Giles
> and That Awful Calendar Woman. Calendar is a good counter to Giles'
> old-fashioned ways,
Yes, they had some nice scenes, I'm glad you remind me.
I really loved her line about the ear-dangling:
[QUOTE]
> Giles: Well, I-I don’t dangle a corkscrew from my ear.
> Ms. Calendar That’s not where I dangle it.
> She walks past him and smiles. Giles follows her with his
> gaze and looks puzzled.
[/QUOTE]
It took me years to figure out where she *did* dangle it :grin:
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> kenm47 wrote:
>> Second: It's a Willow-centric episode. What could be bad? Well, we love
>> Willow, and we don't like seeing her let her guard down and fall for
>> the demon. We figure she's too smart and too strong willed. Well,
>> ultimately she snaps out of it when Moloch fumbles with an IM attack on
>> Buffy, and proves us right. ...
>
> Interesting theory, although I don't really know what being "girlish"
> has to do with anything (Willow's been girlish before in a way that
> made sense; i.e. helping Buffy pick out an outfit). I think the
> problem is simpler than any special feelings about Willow in
> particular, though; when we want to like or respect a character, we
> don't enjoy seeing them look like a dumbass. The show is asking us to
> identify or sympathize with a character who proves easy prey for
> cyber-perverts everywhere, and will allow her academic and social life
> to collapse because of a crush. This behavior is not only stupid, it's
> also not consistent with the Willow as she's been portrayed thus far.
> You may recall that I wasn't very forgiving of those godawful
> Xander-centered scenes in "Teacher's Pet" either. Willow comes off
> marginally better than he did, but she's still portrayed as gullible
> and naive to the point of unsympatheticness, and she's one of the
> characters who the show clearly wants us to sympathize with.
>
I missed your review on Teachers pet, but both Willow and Xander are *ment*
to be portrayed as naive when it comes to dating - because they *are*
naive.
Unlike all those Friends/OC/whatever, they are *not* popular, they are the
anti-Cordy. They've never dated in their live, they're turned down by
everyone they;ve asked and they're desperate to get a date.
(That's why the characters are so likeble, and why they wre 'new' on tv.)
On top of that, Willow might be smart when it comes to magic, but is
repeatedly shown as naive when it comes to romance (in WTTH, she's been
crushing on Xander for years, but still expected him to notice her without
any action from her side etc).
In fact, it surprising that Xander *does* notice that there is danger by
internetdating. It is not unusual that Buffy is not worried, she could get
her dates the 'normal' way and has no experience with internetdating.
Also, Willow was lured in not only because malcolm was interested in her,
but also because he was smart; her thirst for knowledge is one of her weak
points (hacked in WTTH, research etc. )
And at the end, she broke up with Malcolm, so go Willow! :-)
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> See, that ties back into my original criticism. The writers know that
> even if Willow could be intrigued by a cyber-stalker, she wouldn't go
> so totally nuts. But rather than writing the plots to match the
> characters... well, they won't be stopped in their desire to have at
> least one episode in which each hero is transformed into a gibbering
> idiot, so the supernatural is used as a crutch to "justify" a weak
> plot.
>
> -AOQ
>
Usually I would agree with you.
If any other characrter with at least the littles bit of dating experience
(like, say Buffy or Cordelia, or even Willow and Xander in the future),
would ahve done something so stupid and naive, I would be yelling that they
shouldn;t be so naive.
But it isn't, it is about a naive inexperienced girl.
Also, the whole point of the story is to get a naive girl to make a
'normal' mistake when it comes to internet dating, but smart enough to
survive the experience. And having the whole theme tight in with the weekly
theme of 'magic' computerdangers.
I can't think of a character fitting that discription better then Willow
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news:1137522328.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> OK, I'll take the other side. I do say I don't recallexactly how I felt
> about this episode when it aired, and I don't know how much my
> rewatching of it recently has been affected from my knowledge of what
> comes in the rest of the season if not the rest of the series.
>
> You have to remember I am the one (only one?) who insists there are no
> bad episodes in the first three sesons, only some that are not as good
> as others. What follows are AFAIK my thoughts not corroborated by
> anyone connected with the show.
>
You're not the only one, I love the first 3 seasons best (and first 2 of
ATS). I enjoy the stand-alone format of S1, and agree about almost all
poits yo7u made about this episode. Except i'm not jealouse of willowm,
btut concerned/sympathetic (sp?)
>
> Fifth: Buffy defeats a clearly superior physical foe once again with
> her mind, assessing the battleground and tricking Moloch into
> destroying himself.
O yes, that's why I loved Buffy so much; a hero with brains. :-)
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news:Xns974EB8294CB1...@66.75.164.120:
> I just can't get past the awfulness of the plot and how it was
> executed.
>
That's reasonable. Lucky for me, I had little knowledge of plots, and
watched the show mainly for the humor and interaction back then. (Still do,
most of the time :-) )
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a2zmom
worst of Buffy however, but please don't make me go there.)
And I agree, only the Giles, Ms. Calendar conversations are worth
salvaging.
Of course, the net was a somewhat new phenomonon(?sp) at the time, but
even so everybody comes off at just stupid.
Espen Schjønberg
> By far, the worst episdoe of season 1. The absolute nadir (Not the
> worst of Buffy however, but please don't make me go there.)
Yeah, I am repeating myself, but "I Robot..." are a good episode with a
bad monster. There is nothing wrong with it before the robot monster
appears. Malmcolm was scary. Do you really find ep 4 "Teachers Pet", to
be better? _That_ one sucked.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
Arbitrar Of Quality
Obviously we'll continue to disagree on IRYJ, but I'm popping in to
mention that although I gave TP a higher rating, its main plot was
indeed worse than IRYJ; I might even say much worse. However, TP was
absolutely full of great stuff in the non-Xander/mantis portions. It
worked damn hard for that "Decent."
-AOQ