AOQ Review 3-9: "The Wish"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 9: "The Wish"
(or "Thanks, Leonardo! Now I'll never know how 'I Love
Shredder' ended.")
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Greenwalt
Supposedly (well, according to one thing I once read), TV execs say
that you can tell a show is out of ideas once it does _It's A
Wonderful Life_. Let's hope that's not the case, shall we?
After a strange opening sequence with some daytime monster which I was
assuming was a dream (December in California... what the hell's the
deal with California?), we get to deal with what's happening to our
friends. Willow and Xander are both trying to patch things up; the
latter's case seems pretty hopeless ("your logic does not resemble
Earth logic"). I noticed that there are some references to both
Faith and Amy, so as to convey the illusion that characters continue to
exist in the background when the cameras aren't on them.
And this update thing keeps playing on. For too long, really. A few
of the earlier bits are worth seeing - Cordelia's music-enhanced
(where do I know that riff from?) power-walk into the school is good,
as is her quietly absorbing the truth once Harmony & Co. makes it clear
that she can't have The Way Things Were back. Meanwhile, Willow and
Oz have a nice little scene in which the latter doesn't have the same
violent rage to X/W that Cordelia does. Instead, he needs time to
figure things out. Even his final "that's not my problem"
isn't pure lashing out; it comes more from that Oz-style mix of
perceptiveness and bluntness.
>From there TW really takes awhile to get going, as we suffer through a
bunch of interminable scenes like the forced laughter bit at the
Bronze. Yes, we get that the heroes in general and Xander and Cordelia
in particular are loudly talking about moving on without actually doing
so. Next slide, please. The ultimate goal of these parts is to get
Cordelia to come to the strange conclusion that Buffy is her real
problem (without Buff, she'd have had her face sliced up by her
invisible friend, right?) and she thus ends up accidentally making a
wish that'll change the world...
Now, I've complained about Cordelia's fluctuating intelligence
before. When the writers decide to make her so, my beloved Cordy
abruptly tends to become, shall we say, a little slow on the uptake.
The early scenes in Mastersville are a good example. Gee, given that
the VAMPIRE slayer doesn't exist (or isn't around, anyway), people
are referring to your outfit as an invitation to get BITTEN and
referring to many people being DEAD and the danger of going out at
NIGHT, what do you think might be going on here? Putting the pieces
together would seem to preclude going to the Bronze alone. Similar
stupidity reigns when she takes about forty-five minutes to grasp the
obvious fact that her former Slaypack allies are vampires.
So what's the new world like? It's pretty much straight
evil-comic-book stuff. The Master is in charge (talk about finding
ways to bring back old characters...) and not only likes killing
people, but is acting a little older and is looking into modern
technology. Xander and Willow are his top disciples, and there's the
usual interest that comes simply from seeing the characters act out of
character; Evil Willow's pure lust for unlife is quite entertaining
to watch even for extended periods of time. But one-note stuff,
mostly. Some alternate-reality shows try to fully flesh out the other
versions of the principals, but this one just briefly introduces them.
To use my (believe it or not!) first gratuitous ST: DS9 reference of
the year, I think parallel-universe episodes should try to emulate
"Crossover" as far as character depth goes. This one is content to
be "Through The Looking Glass."
Every story of this type also needs a clearly outmatched set of good
guys in perpetual danger of being slaughtered, and those are Giles'
White Hats, as Rupert is again able to step up to the plate when
absolutely necessary. Oz and Larry exist. Oh yeah, the line of the
episode is "*Yes*, I'm
aware that there's a great deal of demonic activity in Cleveland."
We shake things up a little midway in. Formula would be to center this
episode around Cordelia gradually realizing what needs to be done to
bring back the world that was, saving the day in the end, and learning
a valuable lesson. Instead, she lasts just long enough to pass on her
story, and then she gets abruptly killed. Didn't expect that, I'll
admit. (No comment will be made at this time regarding whether I
derived any joy from seeing it happen.) The episode then gets
simultaneously better and worse with the belated introduction of a
Vampire Slayer. On the one hand, this version of Buffy is interesting
to watch for the contrasts with the Giles-trained version. More like a
traditional solitary Slayer, maybe? Or less-controlled, more
Faith-like? I can see it either way, oddly. But she still has that
flippant Buffyness, making her bitterness even bitterer. On the
downside, within her first few lines it becomes abundantly clear
exactly how this episode will end: Giles finds a way to hit the reset
button just as Buffy is killed by the Master. Before then, there's
real doubt, and Giles seems scarily vulnerable, but after Buffy
arrived, I was literally unable to conceive of any other possible
ending. Thus the last act was understandably less exciting.
Most of Angel's scenes are by-the-numbers, but I like the confused
references to destiny and such that hearken back to the flashbacks from
"Becoming."
The final few minutes in Mastersville are almost enough to promote the
show to "Good" status. It's so artistic, like, uh, art or
something. It could even stand alone as an interesting little project
without being attached to an underachieving episode. The increasingly
frequent cutting and increasing use of slo-mo work well as we see our
friends dying, mostly at each others' hands. And that's intercut
with the scene that can change things: Giles, dreaming of a better
world, doing what has to be done to make it happen. The music matches
so perfectly that I actually took note of it.
And so our changed-reality story ends and is undone, with literally no
effect whatsoever on the ongoing series as a whole. It was a mildly
entertaining diversion while it lasted.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- The Master taking a shot of espresso.
So...
One-sentence summary: Interesting enough, but inconsequential.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good
8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent
9) "The Wish" - Decent]
gree...@gmail.com
> Willow and Xander are both trying to patch things up; the
> latter's case seems pretty hopeless ("your logic does not resemble
> Earth logic").
They're both in well over their heads, but Willow's at least not
heading into Denialville.
> (No comment will be made at this time regarding whether I
> derived any joy from seeing it happen.)
Why? One of the coolest killing scenes, like, ever. For any series.
> AOQ rating: Decent
I like this one a lot, but then, I'm a fan of your basic 'what if'
story. Lots of comments were made about what a waste of time this was
'cause nothing really happens (even though it does) and Cordelia
learned nothing ('cause apparently, idly wishing for something with no
expectation of the wish being fulfilled is a critical thing to learn
not to do) and on and on. I said back in the day that not everything
needs to be steak, and "The Wish" is a darned fine bacon cheeseburger.
-- Terry
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> And so our changed-reality story ends and is undone, with literally no
> effect whatsoever on the ongoing series as a whole. It was a mildly
> entertaining diversion while it lasted.
>
> One-sentence summary: Interesting enough, but inconsequential.
Yup. In my Knee-Jerk Review from back then I said it was the weakest
ep of S3 so far. Some bits of it have grown on me over time, but I
still ff through a lot of it to get to those good bits.
Remember when I said I thought "Band Candy" was just an excuse to get
Giles and Joyce together? I really think "The Wish" was just an excuse
to dress Alyson up in leather and have her act "evil." And to kill all
the main characters in the end with no actual repurcussions. Pure
fanfic-y indulgence by the writers, IMNSHO. A little early in the
series for that kind of thing, also IMNSHO. Supposedly the ep is a
lesson for the viewers, to show us what Buffy would have been like
without the Scooby Gang. But I think we could have guessed at that
outcome anyway.
For what it's worth, I always thought the joke that Cordy didn't learn
anything was funny. A little.
-- Mike Zeares
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 9: "The Wish"
> (or "Thanks, Leonardo! Now I'll never know how 'I Love
> Shredder' ended.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Greenwalt
So, you just said you could like the show to lose its path some more
times (whatever you said. I have teflon for brains), and this was the
next instant (this is the piece I rot-ed in the last message about DMP.)
After some very good scenes the end, you end up on decent. I pretty much
say I want to do an AOL here (thats lame, heee.)
I posted several messages about this episode after I first saw it, the
first message is <3FE06C24...@excite.com> .
I like to rewatch this ep nowadays- I can live with the mess "around"
it. But it is the second shift down: here, the characters can die, and
it doesn't count.
And that is degrading for the show.
BTW, we seem to be very close on the ratings of 3x03 to 3x09. As i was
AOL-ing anyway. ;-)
You think it was Eliza Dushku, standing in for being killed in the
Bronze scene? And the mayor in the cage?
--
Espen
rrh...@acme.com
I definitely belong to the school of thought that alternate reality
episodes are rarely a Good Idea. This was, as I dimly and distantly
recall, about when DS9 stopped being good. On the other hand, a
one-shot episode can be good clean fun. Often what makes it is one
particular character is alternate-reality mode: Spock with a goatee is
an obvious example.
This is all my way of leading up to admitting that this wasn't a great
episode, but it had Alyson in leather. Am I so shallow that this would
make it one of my favorites? That's a big 10-4 good buddy!
Richard R. Hershberger
shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Supposedly (well, according to one thing I once read), TV execs say
> that you can tell a show is out of ideas once it does _It's A
> Wonderful Life_. Let's hope that's not the case, shall we?
>
I'm no more or less worried when BtVS chooses to do its version of an
alternate reality episode than I am when it does its werewolf or its
frankenstein story. BtVS' stock-in-trade is old cliches with a twist.
> After a strange opening sequence with some daytime monster which I was
> assuming was a dream
I've re-watched this ep many times. Last night was the first time I
wondered about the opening sequence. The obvious thing to do would be
to lead up to the wish-granting as the final shot of the teaser. I
guess they felt they needed more setup than that.
>(December in California... what the hell's the
> deal with California?), we get to deal with what's happening to our
> friends. Willow and Xander are both trying to patch things up; the
> latter's case seems pretty hopeless ("your logic does not resemble
> Earth logic"). I noticed that there are some references to both
> Faith and Amy, so as to convey the illusion that characters continue to
> exist in the background when the cameras aren't on them.
>
> And this update thing keeps playing on. For too long, really. A few
> of the earlier bits are worth seeing - Cordelia's music-enhanced
> (where do I know that riff from?)
If it's not a song then it's original.
>power-walk into the school is good,
> as is her quietly absorbing the truth once Harmony & Co. makes it clear
> that she can't have The Way Things Were back. Meanwhile, Willow and
> Oz have a nice little scene in which the latter doesn't have the same
> violent rage to X/W that Cordelia does.
Violent rage? She struts around in an impressive, 'serious' looking
outfit. She does the kissing fake-out thing. She laughs too much. I see
no evidence of a violent edge to her pissed-off-ness.
> Instead, he needs time to
> figure things out. Even his final "that's not my problem"
> isn't pure lashing out; it comes more from that Oz-style mix of
> perceptiveness and bluntness.
>
Yeah. I liked that. At the same time I think there's careful
calculation here. The danger with Oz is that he's so agreeable that he
becomes a bit of a wimp, a bit wet. So they give him a bit of backbone
and have him be blunt when needed. However because Oz has to be
uber-cool he has to be uber-fair - hence the fine line that particular
dialogue walks. It shows us Oz is hurt, that he has enough self-respect
to protect himself, without overly blaming Willow.
Compare that with how they might have written Xander in that role.
They'd almost certainly have had him lash out with something mean and
unfair, and then later calm down and there'd be mutual apology.
> From there TW really takes awhile to get going, as we suffer through a
> bunch of interminable scenes like the forced laughter bit at the
> Bronze. Yes, we get that the heroes in general and Xander and Cordelia
> in particular are loudly talking about moving on without actually doing
> so. Next slide, please. The ultimate goal of these parts is to get
> Cordelia to come to the strange conclusion that Buffy is her real
> problem (without Buff, she'd have had her face sliced up by her
> invisible friend, right?)
If you start worrying whether the consequences of Buffy not being in
Sunnydale as depicted in the Wish are plausible you'll likely find it
falls to pieces for you. My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
apocalypse to be S1)
Also, a point of subsequent great note and discussion, Giles' says "It
happens that Sunnydale is on a Hellmouth you know". *A* not *the*. A
careless phrase or a subtle change in the cosmology of the Buffyverse?
> We shake things up a little midway in. Formula would be to center this
> episode around Cordelia gradually realizing what needs to be done to
> bring back the world that was, saving the day in the end, and learning
> a valuable lesson. Instead, she lasts just long enough to pass on her
> story, and then she gets abruptly killed. Didn't expect that, I'll
> admit. (No comment will be made at this time regarding whether I
> derived any joy from seeing it happen.)
Was there a tingle moment? ;)
> The episode then gets
> simultaneously better and worse with the belated introduction of a
> Vampire Slayer. On the one hand, this version of Buffy is interesting
> to watch for the contrasts with the Giles-trained version. More like a
> traditional solitary Slayer, maybe? Or less-controlled, more
> Faith-like? I can see it either way, oddly. But she still has that
> flippant Buffyness, making her bitterness even bitterer.
I'd go for less-controlled on the basis that her Cleveland watcher
doesn't know where she is.
>On the
> downside, within her first few lines it becomes abundantly clear
> exactly how this episode will end: Giles finds a way to hit the reset
> button just as Buffy is killed by the Master. Before then, there's
> real doubt, and Giles seems scarily vulnerable, but after Buffy
> arrived, I was literally unable to conceive of any other possible
> ending. Thus the last act was understandably less exciting.
>
> Most of Angel's scenes are by-the-numbers, but I like the confused
> references to destiny and such that hearken back to the flashbacks from
> "Becoming."
>
You thought the 'puppy' stuff was by the numbers?
> The final few minutes in Mastersville are almost enough to promote the
> show to "Good" status. It's so artistic, like, uh, art or
> something. It could even stand alone as an interesting little project
> without being attached to an underachieving episode. The increasingly
> frequent cutting and increasing use of slo-mo work well as we see our
> friends dying, mostly at each others' hands. And that's intercut
> with the scene that can change things: Giles, dreaming of a better
> world, doing what has to be done to make it happen. The music matches
> so perfectly that I actually took note of it.
>
Yeah it's ok. It's less effective once you've seen it once or twice.
Lost seems to do it at the end of every other episode.
> And so our changed-reality story ends and is undone, with literally no
> effect whatsoever on the ongoing series as a whole. It was a mildly
> entertaining diversion while it lasted.
>
I'd say it was better than that.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - The Master taking a shot of espresso.
>
How about when Giles confidently tells Anyanka that her only power is
in the wishing and she proves him wrong? That raises a smile from me.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Interesting enough, but inconsequential.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'll raise that to good but not much higher.
jil...@hotmail.com
oh dear. Um, okay, since we know that it was seeing Buffy when she
first was called that triggered Angel into wanting to do something
other than wallow in rat-infested alleys, many people assume he spent
all his time following her around (the comics don't count, folks).
This show made it clear that "everyone" knew the Slayer would be in
Sunnydale, and Angel went there ahead to gather intel so he could be
useful when he finally met her. After all, if you can't be useful, how
can you impress the girl?
vague disclaimer
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It also serves the purpose of suggesting that Solo!Buffy is pretty
different from Faith (all business vs all fun).
Other things to like:
Willow in leather;
Buffy walking through Angels dust, indifferent;
Willow in leather;
Vamp!Xander liking to watch;
Willow in leather;
Cordy's' follow-on wishes;
Willow in leather;
"Okay. The entire world sucks because some dead ditz made a wish? I
just, I just want it clear. "
Willow in leather.
Missed trick: Nancy not wearing a red shirt.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Vanya6724
> One-sentence summary: Interesting enough, but inconsequential.
Since we're not doing spoilers I can't elaborate, but this episode is
certainly not inconsequential, as you'll soon see.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> different from Faith (all business vs all fun).
wish buffy shares a lot with faith
brutal
indifferent to her own survival (jung fcvxr fnlf nobhg fynlref va sbby sbe ybir)
scarred
we are told many times that buffy is unusual and maybe unique among slayers
in having somewhat of a socieal network behind her
that keeps her grounded in the world
> Willow in leather;
vs lbh jvfu erny uneq znlor lbh pna frr ure va gurz ntnva
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
burt...@hotmail.com
> If you start worrying whether the consequences of Buffy not being in
> Sunnydale as depicted in the Wish are plausible you'll likely find it
> falls to pieces for you. My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
> rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
> bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
> automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
> apocalypse to be S1)
Yeah, as apocalypses go, that was a pretty wimpy one. Not even a good
rain of toads. Also note that the humans didn't seem to have even
considered what they might do to fight back, like burn down the Bronze
during the daytime.
Other issues are the blatantly obvious reset ending, and count me as
someone who thinks Vamp Willow wasn't all that, but the biggest problem
with the episode is that, as AOQ noted, it's an idiot plot - they had
to turn Cordelia into a complete idiot to make it work.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Sunnydale as depicted in the Wish are plausible you'll likely find it
> falls to pieces for you. My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
> rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
> bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
> automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
> apocalypse to be S1)
the end of the world in prophecy girl is opening the hellmouth
if buffy hadnt dusted luke during the harvest
the master would be free but perhaps not opening the hellmouth in the process
kenm47
A Cordy-centric (kinda) episode. Not a big surprise our rookie finds
more wrong with it than right, or at "Decent" perhaps evenly balanced.
That cup of "espresso" was blood I believe. I guess that was noticed?
The teaser: IMO SMG looked great (pretty, healthy, in shape) in the
teaser; I don't think she had looked better up to this point in time. A
nice contrast with Wish-verse dingy scarred Buffy. I also liked the
discussion that demons do not "poof" and Willow's little gesture on
"poof."
If no Buffy, The Master rises with The Harvest (we never get to the
Annointed One or the Hellmouth opening for all the other demons),
suggesting that the reign of vampires begins - who says the end of the
world is a one night thing?
First, the two things that keep this episode IMO at a solid "Good" and
not excellent:
1. Why aren't students allowed cars in the Wish-verse?
2. We needed something to get the amulet back on Anya's neck. I've
never been able to follow the put it on Cordy for the wish, Cordy dies
wearing it, yet there it is again on Anya's neck for Giles to snatch
and smash.
More thoughts (blather, if you prefer):
I liked the continuity of referencing Amy, Faith and bringing back the
Master. Was that ED (a non-called Faith) being drained outside the
Wish-verse Bronze? Someone said the Mayor is in the cage? I'll have to
look again for that.
I enjoyed the view of what might have been. I thought it a clever "what
if" as others have noted, that also liked it. I also thought the
Wish-verse was adequately presented in the time allowed as very
depressing and creepy, and somehow scarier than the world with our
Buffy in it. This Buffy was also an interesting take, a Buffy without
family or friends, a dour Faith.
Vamp Willow: OK, leather, but IMO the makeup and AH's actng carried it
far more than the outfit.
Vamp Xander: Suddenly NB can actually act. I found him much more
believeable as this bastard than phony laughing nebbish Xander at the
Bronze.
The fight at the end was terrific. Angel's last gasp "Buffy" and the
dusting of VW and VX, very dramatic, BUT for me I still get a little
catch in the throat when this Master so easily beats Buffy and snaps
her neck. But for Giles saving the day (somehow), all of them are gone.
Yes a reset, but self-contained within the one fantasy and but for the
denouement (Marti just couldn't completely carry it off?) all well done
IMO and acceptable as such.
ROT13:
Naq jr xabj gung bar punenpgre qbrf xabj fbzrguvat unccrarq - Naln.
And let me say I have favorite lines, jokes, moments from the first 5
years. My favorite "up" moment is the closing shot of our almost dead
forever Three Amigos chatting together and laughing on the same bench
they were sitting on just before Cordy's wish. There was an optimism
there, a hope for a better tomorrow, a truly "nice" moment after the
cruelty of having witnessing their deaths (or for two plus one, second
death dustings) just seconds earlier.
ROT 13:
Vg jnf gung ubcrshyarff V sbhaq nyzbfg gbgnyyl ynpxvat sbe nyy bs
frnfbaf fvk naq frira, naq svir nsgre Gur Obql hc gb gur pybfvat va Gur
Tvsg - ohg fgvyy fbzrjung qbja gurer, lrg va n jnl npprcgnoyr VS gung
unq orra gur raq.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> Other things to like:
>
> Willow in leather;
> Willow in leather;
> Willow in leather;
> Willow in leather.
And may I say that I admire your priorities. Because, y'know, they fall
so closely in line with my own... :-)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
vague disclaimer
<mair_fheal-60BED...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It also serves the purpose of suggesting that Solo!Buffy is pretty
> > different from Faith (all business vs all fun).
>
> wish buffy shares a lot with faith
> brutal
> indifferent to her own survival (jung fcvxr fnlf nobhg fynlref va sbby sbe
> ybir)
> scarred
I don't dispute that, but they are really quite different. Faith has a
certain...glee.... about her that there was no sign of in Wish!Buffy.
> we are told many times that buffy is unusual and maybe unique among slayers
> in having somewhat of a socieal network behind her
> that keeps her grounded in the world
>
> > Willow in leather;
>
> vs lbh jvfu erny uneq znlor lbh pna frr ure va gurz ntnva
Do you think? I will then!
Rowan Hawthorn
> My two cents:
>
>
> Vamp Willow: OK, leather, but IMO the makeup and AH's actng carried it
> far more than the outfit.
Well, of course. But the costume didn't hurt matters any...
peachy ashie passion
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>
>>Most of Angel's scenes are by-the-numbers, but I like the confused
>>references to destiny and such that hearken back to the flashbacks from
>>"Becoming."
>>
>
>
> You thought the 'puppy' stuff was by the numbers?
>
Nice point. What the heck are you watching that this is by the numbers?
Point me, oh guru.
peachy ashie passion
I was making bets on how long it would be before someone could resist
that.
Vanya6724
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Other issues are the blatantly obvious reset ending, and count me as
> someone who thinks Vamp Willow wasn't all that, but the biggest problem
> with the episode is that, as AOQ noted, it's an idiot plot - they had
> to turn Cordelia into a complete idiot to make it work.
I gotta disagree with you and AOQ strongly on that last point. Cordy's
actions are completely in line with the Cordy we've known through the
first 3 seasons. It's not stupidity, it's just Cordy's obliviousness to
the real world around her. The Cordy on Buffy wants to live the
California dream and always refuses to take the threat from the
Hellmouth seriously until there is no other choice. Vampires and magic
are not a big part of her life at this point. What would actually be
ridiculous would be a high school girl who could instantly grasp all
the implications of her wish. If you want to criticize the show for
violating "realism", Cordy's reactions actually make a lot more sense
than the many times characters suddenly having amazing insights based
on slim amounts of data. As in the Wish for example , and this has
always bugged me, how would Giles come to the seemingly absurd
conclusion that the only world he knows is fake based on a few stray
remarks by a not very coherent Cordelia? Giles prescience stretches
credulity far more than Cordy's obtuseness.
hopelessly devoted
What could possibly be better making you believe the unbelievable?
Taking everything that they made you believe and turning it on it's
ear. It's cliche and predictable. There's nothing new or inventive
about this particular ep. It's a JW take on the oldest story in the
world (just about).
As many things that are wrong with this ep. the old style western
high-noon showdown ending, I can't help but absolutely love it. It's
the Sunnydale version of It's a Wonderful Life without a doubt. Buffy
didn't make the wish, but that doesn't stop the tragedy that ensues.
Because one path was chosen, many lives were changed. Buffy has had a
huge impact on the lives of all those around her and equally vice
verse. A chain of events was put in motion when she came to town. The
bond that the Scoobs share is undeniable regardless of how many times
they are at each others throats. There is a true bond that even if
they don't understand, yet we do. You don't always agree with your
friends, but it's still better than being mortal enemies for no reason
other than chance.
Though the first half is the usual repercussions from the previous ep,
the twist is very plausible in the land of vampires, werewolves, Inca
Mummy Girls and Praying Mantis' Teachers. The setup was nice and I did
actually know what was going to happen, but until it did..........
Love or Hate Cordy, the thought of the incinerator as a matter-of-fact
was disheartening.
Willow and Xander Vampires - OK.
The Master alive, large and in charge - OK.
Buffy acting more Faith than Faith - I can handle that.
It's the last 3 mins that get me every time.
Angel protecting Buffy - Of Course.
Xander killing Buffy's One True Love - Expected.
Buffy not caring ONE BIT? - Wow!
Willow a Vampire, nice twist.
Willow and Buffy Fist Fighting - Unthinkable.
Oz killing Willow - Painful.
Buffy killing Xander - OK, at times yes, but all in all, Xander's bark
is always worse than his bite.
The Master's "Bring on the first"?......OK, I can handle that.
Him Killing Buffy, snapping her neck and then just nonchalantly walking
away....You knew it was coming. You knew it! But still, it was cruel.
And the final scene with everything as it should be. Even Cordy and
her hurt and anger is still better than what could have been.
I wish Buffy summers had never come to Sunnydale.
No, Wait.
I wish Buffy Summers had never been born.
It's the oldest story in the book. Or at least the oldest plot line on
TV. Though some may hate it, It is my #1 in season 3 (Don't ask me
why). It truly is a wonderful, wonderful life. Which is weird
because I actually HATE that movie.
Shuggie
>> Sunnydale as depicted in the Wish are plausible you'll likely find it
>> falls to pieces for you. My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
>> rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
>> bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
>> automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
>> apocalypse to be S1)
>
> the end of the world in prophecy girl is opening the hellmouth
>
> if buffy hadnt dusted luke during the harvest
> the master would be free but perhaps not opening the hellmouth in the process
>
OK, how I understand the S1 flobotnum (which is not fully or explicitly
explained so I'm open to argument) is:
- The Master tried to open the Hellmouth
- he not only failed but got himself trapped like "a cork in a bottle"
- hence the Master and opening the Hellmouth are now linked
(note also that the Master's death closes the newly opened Hellmouth
in PG)
- going by the cork/bottle metaphor - it's not possible for the Master
to get out *without* opening the Hellmouth in the same way you can't
get the cork out of the bottle without leaving the bottle 'open'.
- If you look at the scenes and the effects used then it appears that
the Master can free himself if he has enough power. He tries to get
it through the Vessel in The Harvest and through feeding off Buffy in
PG. Though the source is different the basic mechanism is the same -
Master gets power, he uses that power to "push through" the mystical
barrier.
So from all I've seen, if the Master is out and about the Hellmouth
should be open.
I could fanwank that Giles managed to conjure something to close it
after the Master had risen but that'd be fanwank.
--
Shuggie
burt...@hotmail.com
Vanya6724 wrote:
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Other issues are the blatantly obvious reset ending, and count me as
> > someone who thinks Vamp Willow wasn't all that, but the biggest problem
> > with the episode is that, as AOQ noted, it's an idiot plot - they had
> > to turn Cordelia into a complete idiot to make it work.
>
> I gotta disagree with you and AOQ strongly on that last point. Cordy's
> actions are completely in line with the Cordy we've known through the
> first 3 seasons. It's not stupidity, it's just Cordy's obliviousness to
> the real world around her.
Cordelia can have a certain degree of obliviousness, true, but not to
the ridiculous extreme it was portrayed in this episode. The clues
about what was going on were so blatantly obvious that the only way she
could have missed them would be if she were functionally brain dead.
And it's not even just that she was walking around after dark - I mean,
she doesn't even think to ask any questions about what's going on. Not
even after she hears that Willow and Xander are dead. That's ludicrous.
Don Sample
"shuggie" <shu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
> rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
> bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
> automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
> apocalypse to be S1)
What makes you think that it was a local situation? If it was local,
why the hell was anyone still living in Sunnydale? It is plain from the
beginning that every Sunnydale native knew the score about vampires. Why
would anyone stick around?
And then there's the actions of Buffy and her Watcher. Giles was in
Sunnydale. He knew how to get in touch with Buffy's Watcher. If it was
a local problem, why hadn't he made that phone call years ago?
Larry says it: "The entire world sucks because some dead ditz made a
wish?" It wasn't just a Sunnydale problem: the whole world was like
that. People didn't leave Sunnydale, because there was nowhere better
for them to go.
What no one realized was that the problem *started* in Sunnydale.
Without Buffy, the Harvest went off on schedule, and the Master brought
hell on earth. The entire world was taken over by the demons and the
vampires. When people looked as Sunnydale, they just assumed that what
happened there was part of the same general decline. They didn't realize
that it was the source of the problem.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I definitely belong to the school of thought that alternate reality
> episodes are rarely a Good Idea. This was, as I dimly and distantly
> recall, about when DS9 stopped being good.
You think I'd let this slide? I'd say your recollection is indeed
distant. Now if you'd just said "when the mirror-universe episodes of
DS9 stopped being good," I'd have agreed completely. But other than
the annual (and increasingly lame) trip into the other universe and a
vrief period during S3, DS9 was very restrained as far as time travel
and alternate reality gimmicks go. Well, for a Trek show, anyway.
Compare to _Voyager_, which was running concurrently.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> You think it was Eliza Dushku, standing in for being killed in the
> Bronze scene? And the mayor in the cage?
Didn't notice, but a nice touch if it was.
-AOQ
Don Sample
shu...@gmail.com (Shuggie) wrote:
Or the Hellmouth was opened, and the whole world has gone to hell.
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> ROT13:
> Naq jr xabj gung bar punenpgre qbrf xabj fbzrguvat unccrarq - Naln.
Ohg fur pyrneyl qbrfa'g ng gur raq bs gur rcvfbqr. Sebz ure crefcrpgvir
vg frrzf yvxr fur gevrq gb tenag Pbeql'f jvfu, naq abguvat unccrarq.
Fur unf ab pyhr jul vg qvqa'g unccra, be jul ure cbjre prager vf
fhqqrayl zvffvat.
Arbitrar Of Quality
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Vanya6724 wrote:
> > I gotta disagree with you and AOQ strongly on that last point. Cordy's
> > actions are completely in line with the Cordy we've known through the
> > first 3 seasons. It's not stupidity, it's just Cordy's obliviousness to
> > the real world around her.
>
> Cordelia can have a certain degree of obliviousness, true, but not to
> the ridiculous extreme it was portrayed in this episode. The clues
> about what was going on were so blatantly obvious that the only way she
> could have missed them would be if she were functionally brain dead.
Agreed completely.
> > As in the Wish for example , and this has always bugged me, how would Giles come to the > > seemingly absurd conclusion that the only world he knows is fake based on a few stray
> > remarks by a not very coherent Cordelia? Giles prescience stretches credulity far more than > > Cordy's obtuseness.
Yeah, but the point of that sequence was about belief, not logic.
Giles desperately wanted to believe.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Violent rage? She struts around in an impressive, 'serious' looking
> outfit. She does the kissing fake-out thing. She laughs too much. I see
> no evidence of a violent edge to her pissed-off-ness.
"Violent" as in being very angry. But no, Cordelia isn't much for
physical violence of any kind, is she? She seemed pretty vindictive
when burning the X/C memorabilia, but that's about it.
> At the same time I think there's careful
> calculation here. The danger with Oz is that he's so agreeable that he
> becomes a bit of a wimp, a bit wet. So they give him a bit of backbone
> and have him be blunt when needed. However because Oz has to be
> uber-cool he has to be uber-fair - hence the fine line that particular
> dialogue walks. It shows us Oz is hurt, that he has enough self-respect
> to protect himself, without overly blaming Willow.
>
> Compare that with how they might have written Xander in that role.
> They'd almost certainly have had him lash out with something mean and
> unfair, and then later calm down and there'd be mutual apology.
Nothing to add, but agreed.
> > The episode then gets
> > simultaneously better and worse with the belated introduction of a
> > Vampire Slayer. On the one hand, this version of Buffy is interesting
> > to watch for the contrasts with the Giles-trained version. More like a
> > traditional solitary Slayer, maybe? Or less-controlled, more
> > Faith-like? I can see it either way, oddly. But she still has that
> > flippant Buffyness, making her bitterness even bitterer.
>
> I'd go for less-controlled on the basis that her Cleveland watcher
> doesn't know where she is.
Yeah, her charging right in and killing things seems like Fiath, but
her disdain for people/small-talk and lack of any joy in her work is
more like what I'd imagine from a traditional isolated Slayer.
> > Most of Angel's scenes are by-the-numbers, but I like the confused
> > references to destiny and such that hearken back to the flashbacks from
> > "Becoming."
> >
> You thought the 'puppy' stuff was by the numbers?
Yeah. They rather superficially torture him and Evil Willow does her
usual shtick. I can't say it aroused a reaction of any kind.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Though some may hate it, It is my #1 in season 3 (Don't ask me
> why). It truly is a wonderful, wonderful life. Which is weird
> because I actually HATE that movie.
Since some (like you and JW) love it and a vocal few apparently despise
it (thougbh they haven't been so vocal here), I was kinda hoping for
another monstrosity like the DMP thread...
-AOQ
Shuggie
Which is not the world as presented in The Wish.
Clairel
kenm47 wrote:
> My two cents:
>
> A Cordy-centric (kinda) episode. Not a big surprise our rookie finds
> more wrong with it than right, or at "Decent" perhaps evenly balanced.
>
> That cup of "espresso" was blood I believe. I guess that was noticed?
>
> The teaser: IMO SMG looked great (pretty, healthy, in shape) in the
> teaser; I don't think she had looked better up to this point in time. A
> nice contrast with Wish-verse dingy scarred Buffy. I also liked the
> discussion that demons do not "poof" and Willow's little gesture on
> "poof."
>
> If no Buffy, The Master rises with The Harvest (we never get to the
> Annointed One or the Hellmouth opening for all the other demons),
> suggesting that the reign of vampires begins - who says the end of the
> world is a one night thing?
>
> First, the two things that keep this episode IMO at a solid "Good" and
> not excellent:
> 1. Why aren't students allowed cars in the Wish-verse?
--I always thought it was because their parents were worried about the
kids' safety, and thus wanted them shepherded on to school buses which
would get them back home before dark. Letting high school kids have
cars would encourage them to cruise around at all hours, which some of
them might be reckless enough to do.
I don't agree with the post on this thread that said tthat in the
Wishverse the whole world is controlled by vampires, nut just
Sunnydale. I think it's just Sunnydale and maybe a few other places
like Cleveland. I believe the humans who remain in Sunnydale have had
their minds subtly controlled by magic spells, encouraging them to
remain in such a dangerous place and put up with the situation. I
believe that even in the regular Buffyverse, there has been a certain
amount of the same kind of spell-casting and mind control, and that's
what explains forgettyitis, etc. But in the Wishverse there's a lot
more of it.
The person doing the spell-casting and subtle mind control is probably
obvious to most people reading this, but for AOQ's sake I won't be
explicit because I'm not sure if all the requisite information has yet
been presented at this point in season 3. But anyway, I believe that
in the Wishverse the person in question is either an ally of The Master
and helping him, or else has been killed by the Master but the Master
was able to learn about the spell-casting and continue doing it,
perhaps ramping it up.
That's just my way of making some sense of the Wishverse, which
otherwise is a pretty implausible verse.
Clairel
Shuggie
> shuggie wrote:
>
>> > Most of Angel's scenes are by-the-numbers, but I like the confused
>> > references to destiny and such that hearken back to the flashbacks from
>> > "Becoming."
>> >
>> You thought the 'puppy' stuff was by the numbers?
>
> Yeah. They rather superficially torture him and Evil Willow does her
> usual shtick. I can't say it aroused a reaction of any kind.
>
This is the first time you've seen Evil Willow - how can you say it's
her *usual* schtick.
Mike Zeares
> This is the first time you've seen Evil Willow - how can you say it's
> her *usual* schtick.
Vg'f gur svefg gvzr ur'f frra ure -- be vf vg? Uru uru. Zrguvaxf ur'f
orra tvivat uvzfrys njnl, ohg gurer'f ab qrsvavgvir cebbs lrg.
-- Mike Zeares
Michael Ikeda
news:dsample-CB3B10...@news.giganews.com:
Gur snpg gung fur unf ybfg ure cbjref jbhyq orpbzr boivbhf engure
dhvpxyl.> In article
> <1142446678.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> ROT13:
>> Naq jr xabj gung bar punenpgre qbrf xabj fbzrguvat unccrarq -
>> Naln.
>
> Ohg fur pyrneyl qbrfa'g ng gur raq bs gur rcvfbqr. Sebz ure
> crefcrpgvir vg frrzf yvxr fur gevrq gb tenag Pbeql'f jvfu, naq
> abguvat unccrarq. Fur unf ab pyhr jul vg qvqa'g unccra, be jul
> ure cbjre prager vf fhqqrayl zvffvat.
>
Nygubhtu vg'f pyrne sebz Qbccyrtnatynaq gung fur svtherf bhg jul
fur'f ybfg ure cbjref.
Gur snpg gung fur unf ybfg ure cbjref jbhyq orpbzr boivbhf engure
dhvpxyl.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Don Sample
shu...@gmail.com (Shuggie) wrote:
Yes it was. See my other post on this subject.
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
WGF hasn't pitched in yet. He has strong views on this one. Don't know
if he wrote a song about it though.
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> > Naq jr xabj gung bar punenpgre qbrf xabj fbzrguvat unccrarq - Naln.
>
> Ohg fur pyrneyl qbrfa'g ng gur raq bs gur rcvfbqr. Sebz ure crefcrpgvir
> vg frrzf yvxr fur gevrq gb tenag Pbeql'f jvfu, naq abguvat unccrarq.
> Fur unf ab pyhr jul vg qvqa'g unccra, be jul ure cbjre prager vf
> fhqqrayl zvffvat.
Fb fur jvyy dhvpxyl fpheel bss naq fhzzba ure obff gb svaq bhg.
Mike Zeares
Well, give it time. I recall some arguing about whether Cordy's death
was funny or made the episode worthless (with a few "missing the
points" being thrown around), and some discussion about the mechanics
of the Wishverse (which makes no real sense the more you look at it).
And lots of talk about Willow in leather. However, this was never
really one of the big polarizing episodes. I think DMP hit a lot of
people's "Xander is a jerk/no he's not" buttons. Because of THE LIE,
you see. Which is the most important thing that ever happened in the
Buffyverse. That was my sarcastic voice.
-- Mike Zeares
hopelessly devoted
Ah, but the temptation is so great.
To spoil or not to spoil?
That is the question that gets people pummeled.
:->
Bruce
I'd have to agree with AOQ here. DS9 started off pretty good, and just
got stronger each season. I do think that S7 sort of plateaued though.
Hi there Mr Quality. As often as I've disagreed with your opinions,
you have totally addicted me to atbvs this year, (& to rewatching the
series again). Thank you.
Bruce.
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> And so our changed-reality story ends and is undone, with literally no
> effect whatsoever on the ongoing series as a whole. It was a mildly
> entertaining diversion while it lasted.
>
You've overlooked a potentially fairly large plot-thread left dangling
at the end of the episode... *whistles*
--Sam
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>hopelessly devoted wrote:
Don and I are being polite :)
Also, neither of us are the type to try to convince someone that they do
like something they clearly don't, or vice-versa. I hate, I hate, I hate
Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset Button. Other people don't
have that reaction and have tried to convince me I'm wrong, which is as
much a waste of time as me trying to convince you that you're wrong about
Becoming Pt2. (which I didn't do).
Even in bad Buffy there is good. I liked the Larry bit, two appearances
this season and two great lines. I also liked Anyanka's frustrated last
scene ("granted... granted... granted"), but the slo-mo loving montage of
the main characters being killed turned me off the way all such scenes turn
me off (that is, creating an alternate world or whatever, so you can
lovingly kill off all the characters that you won't Really kill off).
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> like Cleveland. I believe the humans who remain in Sunnydale have had
> their minds subtly controlled by magic spells, encouraging them to
> remain in such a dangerous place and put up with the situation. I
there are people still living in samara and baghdad
people can endure more than is expected
adnd required
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
BTR1701
> > Every story of this type also needs a clearly outmatched set of good
> > guys in perpetual danger of being slaughtered, and those are Giles'
> > White Hats, as Rupert is again able to step up to the plate when
> > absolutely necessary. Oz and Larry exist.
Did you catch the quick Faith cameo being killed outside the Bronze by
some random vampire as Xander and Willow walk by?
Admittedly, her presence in the alternate Sunnydale as just a regular
girl is somewhat inexplicable. Probably why they didn't draw much
attention to it. More of a visual gag than anything else.
Here's a screen grab of the scene:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a263/BTR1701/FaithBite.jpg
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1142441286.5...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
> "shuggie" <shu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
> > rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
> > bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
> > automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
> > apocalypse to be S1)
>
> What makes you think that it was a local situation? If it was local,
> why the hell was anyone still living in Sunnydale? It is plain from the
> beginning that every Sunnydale native knew the score about vampires. Why
> would anyone stick around?
>
> And then there's the actions of Buffy and her Watcher. Giles was in
> Sunnydale. He knew how to get in touch with Buffy's Watcher. If it was
> a local problem, why hadn't he made that phone call years ago?
>
> Larry says it: "The entire world sucks because some dead ditz made a
> wish?" It wasn't just a Sunnydale problem: the whole world was like
> that. People didn't leave Sunnydale, because there was nowhere better
> for them to go.
The real question is *how* the whole world could become like that. I
mean, let's face it, the Buffyverse vampires aren't all that hard to
kill. Once their existence became generally known, the military would
make short work of them long before they could do much more than take
over Santa Barbara County, let alone the whole world.
This is an enemy that's pretty much helpless during daylight, after all.
BTR1701
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 15.03.2006 16:05, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Three, Episode 9: "The Wish"
> > (or "Thanks, Leonardo! Now I'll never know how 'I Love
> > Shredder' ended.")
> > Writer: Marti Noxon
> > Director: David Greenwalt
>
> So, you just said you could like the show to lose its path some more
> times (whatever you said. I have teflon for brains), and this was the
> next instant (this is the piece I rot-ed in the last message about DMP.)
>
> After some very good scenes the end, you end up on decent. I pretty much
> say I want to do an AOL here (thats lame, heee.)
>
> I posted several messages about this episode after I first saw it, the
> first message is <3FE06C24...@excite.com> .
>
> I like to rewatch this ep nowadays- I can live with the mess "around"
> it. But it is the second shift down: here, the characters can die, and
> it doesn't count.
>
> And that is degrading for the show.
>
> BTW, we seem to be very close on the ratings of 3x03 to 3x09. As i was
> AOL-ing anyway. ;-)
>
> You think it was Eliza Dushku, standing in for being killed in the
> Bronze scene? And the mayor in the cage?
Yeah, that was her. Groener wasn't in any of the cages but it looks like
it could have been him lying on the pool table being tortured.
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Well, except for the fact that there's no logical reason in the world
for Faith to be in Sunnydale if Buffy never came there. The only reason
she came to Sunnydale from Boston was because she was a Slayer and the
only reason she was a Slayer was because of the chain of events set in
motion when the Master killed Buffy.
Having said all that, it was still a nice touch.
jil...@hotmail.com
BTR1701 wrote:
> The real question is *how* the whole world could become like that. I
> mean, let's face it, the Buffyverse vampires aren't all that hard to
> kill. Once their existence became generally known, the military would
> make short work of them long before they could do much more than take
> over Santa Barbara County, let alone the whole world.
>
> This is an enemy that's pretty much helpless during daylight, after all.
You know what I don't like? I don't like that people continually
assume that just because Buffyverse vampires can be killed and don't
come out in broad daylight, the military would have no problem with
them. And some examples I can come up with would be spoilers, so I
shan't.
However, look at real life! You assume that everyone will respond
logically and efficiently, but if the Hellmouth was opened, it's not
only vampires the world has to face, but armies of creatures who are
NOT restricted to the night!
The army will take care of them? Have you missed all the scenes with
the Mayor of Sunnydale? Who's in charge of the army? Are they
responsible people or are they smirking and waiting for when their
dupes will make them ruler of the world?
jil...@hotmail.com
Does this plot-thread involve a skinny blonde girl?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset Button. Other people don't
unlike other series which shall remain---charmed
btvs has to pay for the other giant reset buttons
so letting them get away with it once is tolerable
> Even in bad Buffy there is good. I liked the Larry bit, two appearances
> this season and two great lines. I also liked Anyanka's frustrated last
> scene ("granted... granted... granted"), but the slo-mo loving montage of
> the main characters being killed turned me off the way all such scenes turn
> me off (that is, creating an alternate world or whatever, so you can
> lovingly kill off all the characters that you won't Really kill off).
the point of the episode being
the importance of remaining connected to people and the world
Don Sample
Whereas I just hate the idiot pod-Cordy of the first half. It picks up
after she gets killed off.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> make short work of them long before they could do much more than take
> over Santa Barbara County, let alone the whole world.
republican administration
vampires
republican administration
vampires
hmmmm
so whats this lesser of two evils bit
BTR1701
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > The real question is *how* the whole world could become like that. I
> > mean, let's face it, the Buffyverse vampires aren't all that hard to
> > kill. Once their existence became generally known, the military would
> > make short work of them long before they could do much more than take
> > over Santa Barbara County, let alone the whole world.
> >
> > This is an enemy that's pretty much helpless during daylight, after all.
>
>
> You know what I don't like? I don't like that people continually
> assume that just because Buffyverse vampires can be killed and don't
> come out in broad daylight, the military would have no problem with
> them.
Well, I'm sorry if you don't like it but it's common sense.
> And some examples I can come up with would be spoilers, so I
> shan't.
Vs lbh'er gnyxvat nobhg gur Vavgvngvir, gura lbhe rknzcyr jbhyqa'g or
pbzcnenoyr. Svefg, gurl jrer jevggra nf negvsvpvnyyl naq evqvphybhfyl
vapbzcrgrag va beqre gb znxr Ohssl ybbx fhcrevbe va pbzcnevfba. Frpbaq,
gurl jrera'g gelvat gb jvcr gurz bhg. Gurl jrer pbyyrpgvat gurz, ubhfvat
gurz naq rkcrevzragvat ba gurz. Jura gur zvyvgnel jrag onpx gb whfg
jvcvat gurz bhg (gur grnz Evyrl jrag bss naq wbvarq jvgu uvf arj jvsr,
sbe rknzcyr, gurl jrer uvtuyl rssrpgvir).
> However, look at real life! You assume that everyone will respond
> logically and efficiently, but if the Hellmouth was opened, it's not
> only vampires the world has to face, but armies of creatures who are
> NOT restricted to the night!
None of which we saw preying on the denizens of Sunnydale in this
episode. Only vampires.
> The army will take care of them?
Yeah, pretty quickly. I could put down a Buffy-type vampire quite easily
just on my own. Three shots center of mass with my pistol, then when
it's lying on the ground screaming in pain, follow through with a quick
staking.
Then there's the ever popular holy water option. Imagine what the
National Guard could do with a few fire trucks, fire hoses connected to
hydrants and a priest to bless the water as it comes out?
And if it got really bad in any one town, just go in during the day,
evacuate all the humans (you can tell who they are by the way they don't
explode in flame when they go outside) and then firebomb the entire
city. Voila. Vampires no more.
> Have you missed all the scenes with
> the Mayor of Sunnydale? Who's in charge of the army?
Not the mayor, that's for sure.
> Are they responsible people or are they smirking
> and waiting for when their dupes will make them ruler
> of the world?
Given what we've seen, I'd say neither. However they do appear to be
people acting out of a healthy sense of enlightened self-interest.
Allowing creatures that prey on humans to lay waste to your entire
planet seems somewhat at odds to that.
Wes <>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>Since some (like you and JW) love it and a vocal few apparently despise
>it (thougbh they haven't been so vocal here), I was kinda hoping for
>another monstrosity like the DMP thread...
>
>-AOQ
Heh, how about this:
Anticipating the brouhaha surrounding DMP, Mutant Enemy decided to
show us (the viewers) what might have happened not only if Buffy
hadn't arrived in WttH, but what if she had not returned in Anne.
The gang was holding their own against the typical vamps but
undoubtedly something or someone would come along they couldn't handle
and then who knows how bad things could get.
Buffy might hear the news and return but the gang no longer really
existed. Being on the front line they would certainly take casualties.
Angel was no help and the Buffy/Giles relationship was not at a high
point. So, by herself, Buffy went after the Big Bad and the world pays
the price.
Wes,
who enjoys the ep but wishes Jenny Calendar had been undercover in
VampWillow clothes to keep an eye on Angel.
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-F43FB...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > Sunnydale. I think it's just Sunnydale and maybe a few other places
> > like Cleveland. I believe the humans who remain in Sunnydale have had
> > their minds subtly controlled by magic spells, encouraging them to
> > remain in such a dangerous place and put up with the situation. I
>
> there are people still living in samara and baghdad
>
> people can endure more than is expected
> adnd required
The people of Baghdad don't really have an option to go anywhere.
They're surrounded by places that are just as bad, and if they try to go
farther, to where things aren't so bad, they find there are armed border
guards who'll shoot them if they try.
Has the US government put up a wall around the Wishverse Sunnydale? If
they know things are so bad that they don't let people leave, why
haven't they sent in the army, or the national guard?
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Here's another grab, from a bit later when we're closer, and I've
rotated it upright. It doesn't look like ED to me.
<http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Stuff/BronzeGirl.jpg>
Apteryx
news:1142435114.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
This seems to be a fairly polarising episode, at least in the sense of being
in in many Top 10 lists, while being not so much to many others. That is
understandable given that it has
many glaring weaknesses, and many highlights. It just depends on which
catches your attention more.
The weaknesses are mainly plot holes. The logic of this episode is not like
our Earth logic:
1) Cordelia concludes that Buffy is the cause of all her problems just after
being
knocked into a pile of nasty smelling stuff by a vampire Buffy is fighting.
Instead of being killed by said vampire.
2) If Anyanka has been around granting wishes - any wishes - to wronged
women, how come there are still men in the world?
3) Anyanka's wish granting powers are OTT - they potentially cancel out
anything that might be achieved for good and evil by any other means. If
Giles' books tell about Anyanka and how to summon her, shouldn't the Council
of Watchers have long ago arranged for a suitably motivated Wronged Women to
summon her and make a wish that included the permanent sealing of the
Hellmouth and the elimination of all vampires and demons. Of course it would
have made for a pretty dull series from then on...
4) As great as Cordelia's power walk scene is, all suspension of disbelief
that Charisma Carpenter is high school aged is revoked.
5) Cordelia behaves like James Kirk at his worst when all the locals are
warning him to stay of the streets etc but he doesn't know why, so just
ignores the advice. If you are in a strange new world, how smart do you have
to be to realise the locals know the dangers better than you do, and heed
their warnings?
6) Anyanka is curiously vulnerable. To grant the wish, she has to give her
power-center to the wisher. But if it is destroyed, the wish is negated and
Anyanka rendered mortal. Nsgre guvf rcvfbqr, gur Havba bs Punbf Qrzbaf,
Iratrnapr Qrzbaf, Genssvp Cynaaref, Gebyyf, naq Eryngrq Genqrf rivqragyl
crgvgvbarq gur Cbjref Gung Or gb punatr gur jnl iratrnapr fcryyf jbex gb
yrnir Iratrnapr Qrzbaf yrff ihyarenoyr. Jura Unyserpx tenagf Qnja'f jvfu va
Byqre & Sne Njnl, gur cbjre-pragre vf fgvyy eryrinag, ohg Unyserpx qbrfa'g
tvir vg gb Qnja gb znxr gur fcryy jbex. Naq va Frysyrff, gur cbjre-pragre
unf orra ryvzvangrq nygbtrgure nf n jnl bs pnapryyvat gur fcryy. Gung bs
pbhefr jbexf bhg onqyl sbe Unyserpx, fb gur HbPQIQGCG&EG zl or ybbxvat ng
gur vffhr ntnva.
7)The Master seems to have missed the point of Mass Production. It is to
make production more effecient. Production lines in slaughterhouses may make
killing of farmed animals more efficient, but where humans still have to be
captured "in the wild", it is hard to see how his production line is any
more efficient than biting and feeding immediately on capture. They would
need to breed and farm humans to get the kind of efficiencies that the
Master is looking for. Except that human growth rates are too slow. It may
be that early man preferred the taste of mamoth to cattle, sheep, and pigs,
but once farming is undertaken, growth rates and stock management issues are
more important than preferred taste. If vampires went down this Mass
Production route in Wish World, I predict in 2 generations or less, they
would be farming pigs instead of humans.
And then there is the good stuff:
1) Repentant Willow
2) Leather Willow (and the "Bored Now" line)
3) Opportunities for cast to have some fun in new roles
4) Vagebqhgvba bs Naln naq frghc sbe Qbccyrtnatynaq
5) Buffy's "You'd be surprised how many things that [a stake through the
heart] will kill"
6) The fight at the end , complete with heaps of ironic deaths.
7) Cordelia's power walk scene is pretty good (I've got layers too)
The list of weaknesses may seem more substantial, but c'mon, Willow in
leather!
Unlike Lover's Walk, where I find myself also conflicted between great and
weak aspects, The Wish seems to fall in my ratings each time I watch it (I
tried not watching it for a while, but that just meant that when I next
watched it, I downgraded it more than usual) Currently its my 44th favourite
BtVS episode, 12th best in Season 3.
--
Apteryx
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-91791F...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > > > Every story of this type also needs a clearly outmatched set of good
> > > > guys in perpetual danger of being slaughtered, and those are Giles'
> > > > White Hats, as Rupert is again able to step up to the plate when
> > > > absolutely necessary. Oz and Larry exist.
> >
> > Did you catch the quick Faith cameo being killed outside the Bronze by
> > some random vampire as Xander and Willow walk by?
> >
> > Admittedly, her presence in the alternate Sunnydale as just a regular
> > girl is somewhat inexplicable. Probably why they didn't draw much
> > attention to it. More of a visual gag than anything else.
> >
> > Here's a screen grab of the scene:
> >
> > http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a263/BTR1701/FaithBite.jpg
>
> Here's another grab, from a bit later when we're closer, and I've
> rotated it upright. It doesn't look like ED to me.
It's her.
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Since some (like you and JW) love it and a vocal few apparently despise
> it (thougbh they haven't been so vocal here), I was kinda hoping for
> another monstrosity like the DMP thread...
Oh, that could still happen, judging from discussions of The Wish back
in olden times. The reset button polarized a lot of fans.
Another thing: I remember David Hines discovering (around I Only Have
Eyes For You) that, in his view, Noxon tends overwhelmingly to write
fanfic. He thought it was sometimes *good* fanfic, but only sometimes.
The Wish fits into that theory as well, as does BBB, though from time
to time you could also make such a case for other writers. I agree
with Hines for the most part on that issue. (Naq, yvxr Uvarf, V cenvfr
gur irel qvssrerag Pbafrdhraprf, juvpu urycf erqrrz Abkba'f synjf naq
fgnaqf nzbat gur orfg bs gur frevrf. Gur Cebz, xvat bs nyy fubqql
snasvp, jvyy or hc sbe qvfphffvba orsber ybat.)
Perhaps that slo-mo death sequence (a la Peckinpah, I believe Noxon
says on her DVD commentary?) is another love-it-or-hate-it thing.
Buffy's indifference to Angel, and her neck-snap & slow drop to the
floor as the screen goes white, with Chris Beck's music... Man, I love
it.
--Kevin
George W Harris
wrote:
:who enjoys the ep but wishes Jenny Calendar had been undercover in
:VampWillow clothes to keep an eye on Angel.
I wish Luke and Darla had been there.
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
One Bit Shy
news:1142435114.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> The ultimate goal of these parts is to get
> Cordelia to come to the strange conclusion that Buffy is her real
> problem (without Buff, she'd have had her face sliced up by her
> invisible friend, right?) and she thus ends up accidentally making a
> wish that'll change the world...
Hmmm. I get what you're saying - and it's true that there's an internal
plot need to center the wish on Buffy. But to me, it's not all that strange
a conclusion. Cordy did get drawn into the group originally because she
went to Buffy for help back in S1. Buffy has saved Cordelia a few times
now. But Cordy is also correct that trouble comes to Buffy, and that
hanging around with her is a dangerous pasttime. Cordy's outlook on the
world is also very aware of social standing - and Buffy is the center of
that social clique. Her poor social standing by being with Xander isn't due
to Xander alone. If he was still on the swim team, for example, it probably
wouldn't be that bad. But he's one of the weirdos that hangs out in the
library - with Buffy.
There are a number of strange leaps of logic in this episode. This one
doesn't bother me though. I think it's natural to Cordy's established
outlook.
> Now, I've complained about Cordelia's fluctuating intelligence
> before. When the writers decide to make her so, my beloved Cordy
> abruptly tends to become, shall we say, a little slow on the uptake.
> The early scenes in Mastersville are a good example. Gee, given that
> the VAMPIRE slayer doesn't exist (or isn't around, anyway), people
> are referring to your outfit as an invitation to get BITTEN and
> referring to many people being DEAD and the danger of going out at
> NIGHT, what do you think might be going on here? Putting the pieces
> together would seem to preclude going to the Bronze alone. Similar
> stupidity reigns when she takes about forty-five minutes to grasp the
> obvious fact that her former Slaypack allies are vampires.
Sloppy consideration to stuff like that is, I agree, a weakness in the show.
It's not horrible. You can rationalize it some with Cordy's natural
oblivious self centered way. Or write it off as a not very important
casualty to moving the story along. But, gee, it would be nice if it were
done better.
> Xander and Willow are his top disciples, and there's the
> usual interest that comes simply from seeing the characters act out of
> character; Evil Willow's pure lust for unlife is quite entertaining
> to watch even for extended periods of time. But one-note stuff,
> mostly.
I agree - both elements. She looked great. Got to say, "Bored now."
Played up to people's secret fantasies of how bad Willow gets behind closed
doors. (She did say rough was OK in BB&B, but I suppose you repressed that.
heh-heh)
I was very curious about Xander though. He's menacing enough. But after is
behavior in Revelations just two episodes ago, it isn't near the change that
Willow provides.
> Some alternate-reality shows try to fully flesh out the other
> versions of the principals, but this one just briefly introduces them.
> To use my (believe it or not!) first gratuitous ST: DS9 reference of
> the year, I think parallel-universe episodes should try to emulate
> "Crossover" as far as character depth goes. This one is content to
> be "Through The Looking Glass."
I was a sucker for DS9 alternate universe any which way. What can I say?
> The episode then gets
> simultaneously better and worse with the belated introduction of a
> Vampire Slayer. On the one hand, this version of Buffy is interesting
> to watch for the contrasts with the Giles-trained version. More like a
> traditional solitary Slayer, maybe? Or less-controlled, more
> Faith-like? I can see it either way, oddly. But she still has that
> flippant Buffyness, making her bitterness even bitterer.
The episode got a whole lot better then for me, precisely because she was
still recognizably as Buffy. Yeah, there are Faith elements and traditional
slayer elements. But that's only half the story. The other part is that
it's what happens when she doesn't have the friends and nurture she got at
Sunnydale. (Isn't that weird to think of that as nurture? But that's the
implication. Carried a step further, it may also imply that in sum, Angel
was very good for her. Even with all the trauma surrounding him. Maybe he
made things matter to her.)
This episode couldn't be considered a comedy, but it's over the top fanciful
reality still made it a kind of a lark - certainly not serious - on par with
3 of the previous 4 episodes. Until the Buffy element came in. That was
just plain sad to see. Willow seemed to be a caricature. Buffy was Buffy
with her hope removed. She lived for the kill. Didn't really care if she
died. But her Buffy essence still peeked through, making the episode more
emotional. Making it matter more.
> On the
> downside, within her first few lines it becomes abundantly clear
> exactly how this episode will end: Giles finds a way to hit the reset
> button just as Buffy is killed by the Master. Before then, there's
> real doubt, and Giles seems scarily vulnerable, but after Buffy
> arrived, I was literally unable to conceive of any other possible
> ending. Thus the last act was understandably less exciting.
Curious. I never see it like that. The end of the alternate universe
mostly works well for me - though it hurts. I don't like the part with the
machine sending the blood to a beer tap. It strikes me as gratuitously
cruel, and not a terribly impressive idea. But the Angel scene and the
fight scene work very well for me. I was genuinely appalled at what Buffy
had been reduced to, upset that Oz killed Willow, and hurt to see the Master
triumph over Buffy.
Aside from generally knowing that somehow reality would return, I didn't
particularly expect anything.
> And so our changed-reality story ends and is undone, with literally no
> effect whatsoever on the ongoing series as a whole.
I'm not sure there is such a thing in BTVS. I'll have to think about that.
> One-sentence summary: Interesting enough, but inconsequential.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I have kind of mixed feelings about it, so I won't argue with the rating. I
spoke of some of the things I liked about it, but I think the biggest thing
in its favor is simply that it has proven memorable.
My biggest issue with it isn't even really about the episode in itself.
This is the 4th episode in the last 5 that's been built around a kind of
carnival sideshow mentality. Each in their way has been clever and
entertaining. But is that what the season is about? The next gimmick?
It's a little weird, because much about the season is outstanding. Good
production values. Good acting. Some genuinely clever ideas. The previous
two shows I'd rate as Excellent. But what's the heart of the season? The
Slayer gang forever bickering about whether they can trust each other?
Waiting for the Angel thing to peter out? At this point in the season, I'm
drifting.
OBS
One Bit Shy
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142438522....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> I really think "The Wish" was just an excuse
> to dress Alyson up in leather and have her act "evil."
At the time, probably also an excuse for Willow and Xander to keep on
kissing.
OBS
BTR1701
"Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Since some (like you and JW) love it and a vocal few apparently despise
> > it (thougbh they haven't been so vocal here), I was kinda hoping for
> > another monstrosity like the DMP thread...
>
>
> Oh, that could still happen, judging from discussions of The Wish back
> in olden times. The reset button polarized a lot of fans.
>
> Another thing: I remember David Hines discovering (around I Only Have
> Eyes For You) that, in his view, Noxon tends overwhelmingly to write
> fanfic.
Not sure I understand this. If "quality of writing" is the criteria for
what is and is not fanfic such that one of the actual writers of the
show can be said to be a fanfic author, then the converse would have to
be true: that a fan of the show could be an actual author (or whatever
the proper term is) if he/she is a sufficiently talented writer.
It's always been my understanding that even if a person is as talented
as Hemingway, he's still writing fanfic if he's not on the show's
writing staff or hired by Fox to write commercial novel tie-ins.
One Bit Shy
>
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Vanya6724 wrote:
>
>> > I gotta disagree with you and AOQ strongly on that last point. Cordy's
>> > actions are completely in line with the Cordy we've known through the
>> > first 3 seasons. It's not stupidity, it's just Cordy's obliviousness to
>> > the real world around her.
>>
>> Cordelia can have a certain degree of obliviousness, true, but not to
>> the ridiculous extreme it was portrayed in this episode. The clues
>> about what was going on were so blatantly obvious that the only way she
>> could have missed them would be if she were functionally brain dead.
>
> Agreed completely.
>
>> > As in the Wish for example , and this has always bugged me, how would
>> > Giles come to the > > seemingly absurd conclusion that the only world
>> > he knows is fake based on a few stray
>> > remarks by a not very coherent Cordelia? Giles prescience stretches
>> > credulity far more than > > Cordy's obtuseness.
>
> Yeah, but the point of that sequence was about belief, not logic.
> Giles desperately wanted to believe.
>
> -AOQ
And they're more than stray remarks. She clearly knows about Buffy, which
Giles wouldn't expect anybody in Sunnydale to know but him, and she knows
he's a watcher, which he probably hasn't told anybody in Sunnydale either.
And then to find a Demon stone around her neck would give him pause. More
than enough to ponder seriously what she said. When research digs up Anyaka
and wishes, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to deduce a bad wish
had been made.
OBS
One Bit Shy
Oh, incidentally. For whatever reason, whenever I hear the Master give his
speech about mass production, he reminds me of the Wizard in the Wizard of
Oz.
OBS
KenM47
>mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> If you start worrying whether the consequences of Buffy not being in
>>> Sunnydale as depicted in the Wish are plausible you'll likely find it
>>> falls to pieces for you. My biggie is the Master. In S1 the Master
>>> rising is equated with the end of the world. In the Wish it creates a
>>> bad local situation for Sunnydale. (though perhaps that's what the
>>> automated death thing is about - but that's not what I took the
>>> apocalypse to be S1)
>>
>> the end of the world in prophecy girl is opening the hellmouth
>>
>> if buffy hadnt dusted luke during the harvest
>> the master would be free but perhaps not opening the hellmouth in the process
>>
>
>OK, how I understand the S1 flobotnum (which is not fully or explicitly
>explained so I'm open to argument) is:
>
> - The Master tried to open the Hellmouth
>
> - he not only failed but got himself trapped like "a cork in a bottle"
>
> - hence the Master and opening the Hellmouth are now linked
> (note also that the Master's death closes the newly opened Hellmouth
> in PG)
>
> - going by the cork/bottle metaphor - it's not possible for the Master
> to get out *without* opening the Hellmouth in the same way you can't
> get the cork out of the bottle without leaving the bottle 'open'.
>
> - If you look at the scenes and the effects used then it appears that
> the Master can free himself if he has enough power. He tries to get
> it through the Vessel in The Harvest and through feeding off Buffy in
> PG. Though the source is different the basic mechanism is the same -
> Master gets power, he uses that power to "push through" the mystical
> barrier.
>
>So from all I've seen, if the Master is out and about the Hellmouth
>should be open.
>
>I could fanwank that Giles managed to conjure something to close it
>after the Master had risen but that'd be fanwank.
I don't recall it that way, and too lazy right now to check further.
At first, The Master was only concerned with getting himself out of
the snare he created. Maybe later he would get back to opening the
Hellmouth.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
news:1142454257.8...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> And the final scene with everything as it should be. Even Cordy and
> her hurt and anger is still better than what could have been.
>
> I wish Buffy summers had never come to Sunnydale.
> No, Wait.
> I wish Buffy Summers had never been born.
There's a nice little irony there. In the end, Anya goading Cordy into
making a wish actually made Cordy feel better.
OBS
KenM47
>
>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> hopelessly devoted wrote:
>>
>> > Though some may hate it, It is my #1 in season 3 (Don't ask me
>> > why). It truly is a wonderful, wonderful life. Which is weird
>> > because I actually HATE that movie.
>>
>> Since some (like you and JW) love it and a vocal few apparently despise
>> it (thougbh they haven't been so vocal here), I was kinda hoping for
>> another monstrosity like the DMP thread...
>
>Well, give it time. I recall some arguing about whether Cordy's death
>was funny or made the episode worthless (with a few "missing the
>points" being thrown around), and some discussion about the mechanics
>of the Wishverse (which makes no real sense the more you look at it).
>And lots of talk about Willow in leather. However, this was never
>really one of the big polarizing episodes. I think DMP hit a lot of
>people's "Xander is a jerk/no he's not" buttons. Because of THE LIE,
>you see. Which is the most important thing that ever happened in the
>Buffyverse. That was my sarcastic voice.
>
>-- Mike Zeares
Cordy's "death" was erotic in the best vampire tradition.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
It certainly looked like her. Was this ever confirmed?
Ken (Brooklyn)
cry...@panix.com
> Don and I are being polite :)
>
> Also, neither of us are the type to try to convince someone that
> they do like something they clearly don't, or vice-versa. I
> hate, I hate, I hate Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset
> Button.
I understand that completely, but in episodes where it's obvious
from the very beginning that the Giant Reset Button will be called
into play, it's not a cop-out at all. Instead, it's a "What If?"
story.
If it's not made plain from the beginning, it's a cop-out rather
than a "What If?", because you're expecting permanent changes and
you don't get them. When it IS made plain, the episode has no
permanent effect on the story, but there's no disappointment about
it.
So why do it at all? Because a good "What If?" story, such as
this one, can illustrates at least one basic principle of the
show in a very powerful way. It makes the normal episodes of
the series that much more effective through that statement.
(Here, the obvious principle being "Buffy is an exceptional
slayer because she has friends, and is not isolated.")
In other words, it affects the viewer, not the characters.
> Other people don't have that reaction and have tried to convince
> me I'm wrong, which is as much a waste of time as me trying to
> convince you that you're wrong about Becoming Pt2. (which I
> didn't do).
I'm not necessarily trying to convince you, but I have no problem
stating my own opinion, either.
I love this episode because it puts all other episodes into a new
light. This makes it very important in the series, for me, and it
is in fact one of my all-time favorites. Dropping this episode
would lessen the impact of the entire show.
-Crystal
Kevin
BTR1701 wrote:
> If "quality of writing" is the criteria for
> what is and is not fanfic such that one of the actual writers of the
> show can be said to be a fanfic author, then the converse would have to
> be true: that a fan of the show could be an actual author (or whatever
> the proper term is) if he/she is a sufficiently talented writer.
Writing quality isn't the criterion for the "Fanfic" label as used in
Hines' reviews of Noxon or the ensuing discussions. I think someone
else can give a better definition than I can... Zeares?
--Kevin
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1142435114.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Interesting enough, but inconsequential.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Decent
>
> This seems to be a fairly polarising episode, at least in the sense of being
> in in many Top 10 lists, while being not so much to many others. That is
> understandable given that it has
> many glaring weaknesses, and many highlights. It just depends on which
> catches your attention more.
>
> The weaknesses are mainly plot holes. The logic of this episode is not like
> our Earth logic:
>
> 1) Cordelia concludes that Buffy is the cause of all her problems just after
> being
> knocked into a pile of nasty smelling stuff by a vampire Buffy is fighting.
> Instead of being killed by said vampire.
Buffy kicked the vamp into her.
> 2) If Anyanka has been around granting wishes - any wishes - to wronged
> women, how come there are still men in the world?
Because if she let all the men get wished away, she would be out of a
job. She doesn't have to grant every wish she hears, and she gets to
choose how she grants wishes. "I wish every man on the planet had their
balls explode" would be a wish that she'd ignore, or grant by making all
the golf balls in the world blow up, or something like that.
>
> 3) Anyanka's wish granting powers are OTT - they potentially cancel out
> anything that might be achieved for good and evil by any other means. If
> Giles' books tell about Anyanka and how to summon her, shouldn't the Council
> of Watchers have long ago arranged for a suitably motivated Wronged Women to
> summon her and make a wish that included the permanent sealing of the
> Hellmouth and the elimination of all vampires and demons. Of course it would
> have made for a pretty dull series from then on...
See 2.
> 4) As great as Cordelia's power walk scene is, all suspension of disbelief
> that Charisma Carpenter is high school aged is revoked.
>
> 5) Cordelia behaves like James Kirk at his worst when all the locals are
> warning him to stay of the streets etc but he doesn't know why, so just
> ignores the advice. If you are in a strange new world, how smart do you have
> to be to realise the locals know the dangers better than you do, and heed
> their warnings?
No argument from me.
>
> 6) Anyanka is curiously vulnerable. To grant the wish, she has to give her
> power-center to the wisher. But if it is destroyed, the wish is negated and
> Anyanka rendered mortal.
Nothing about what she did says she *had* to give Cordy her power
centre. Maybe that was just her way to put Cordy at ease, and get her
to make a wish.
> Nsgre guvf rcvfbqr, gur Havba bs Punbf Qrzbaf,
> Iratrnapr Qrzbaf, Genssvp Cynaaref, Gebyyf, naq Eryngrq Genqrf rivqragyl
> crgvgvbarq gur Cbjref Gung Or gb punatr gur jnl iratrnapr fcryyf jbex gb
> yrnir Iratrnapr Qrzbaf yrff ihyarenoyr. Jura Unyserpx tenagf Qnja'f jvfu va
> Byqre & Sne Njnl, gur cbjre-pragre vf fgvyy eryrinag, ohg Unyserpx qbrfa'g
> tvir vg gb Qnja gb znxr gur fcryy jbex. Naq va Frysyrff, gur cbjre-pragre
> unf orra ryvzvangrq nygbtrgure nf n jnl bs pnapryyvat gur fcryy. Gung bs
> pbhefr jbexf bhg onqyl sbe Unyserpx, fb gur HbPQIQGCG&EG zl or ybbxvat ng
> gur vffhr ntnva.
Be gurer jnf ab erdhverzrag va gur svefg cynpr.
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Espen Schjønberg wrote:
>
> > You think it was Eliza Dushku, standing in for being killed in the
> > Bronze scene? And the mayor in the cage?
>
> Didn't notice, but a nice touch if it was.
I looked at that snap, and it didn't look like Faith to me.
Clairel
--The same spell-casting that I was talking about in my last post
prevents the outside world from taking any notice.
Clairel
BTR1701
Daniel Damouth
news:s49h12pe9mcc87pc6...@4ax.com:
> I hate, I hate, I hate
> Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset Button.
What I like about the resolution of "The Wish" is how perfectly pure
the reset button is. Everyone is oblivious. Not a single character
learns a lesson.
This is in contrast to most "alternate universe" stories I've seen.
For example, just the other day I caught a repeat of "Yesterday's
Enterprise", which is almost entirely the story of a time loop that
vanishes. Yet they couldn't resist having Guinan "sense" what was
going on. Likewise in the Repeatedly Exploding Enterprise episode, in
which the characters somehow started remembering tidbits from previous
time loops. And, of course, there's the previously mentioned "It's a
Wonderful Life".
Making the reset button so perfect reminds me the perfect Cordelia
death fakeout in "Lovers Walk". Pure, blatant, and unsullied.
-Dan Damouth
KenM47
Thx. Looks right to me. BTW, I don't think Groener is anyone inside
the Bronze.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Clairel
--I don't have a one-word label for it, but I think what you mean is
"writing that caters to fans' hankerings and obsessions instead of
exhibiting a classic concern for structure, narrative logic, etc." In
later years, a lot of people accused Qerj Tbqqneq of this. But maybe
because I *am* unabashedly a fan, I have no problem with writing that
caters to fans' hankerings and obsessions (as long as it doesn't
completely neglect structure and story logic). You could fall it
"fanficcy" or "quasi-fanfic" if you wanted to.
I don't see Marti Noxon as "fanficcy" in that sense at all. She seems
to know less about Buffyverse history than just about any other
long-time writer; and an obsession with history and continuity is a
hallmark of "fanficcy" writing.
I just have to add one thing about The Wish that AOQ didn't comment on
and nobody else has mentioned in this thread, though I think it has
been mentioned in past years. Despite all the problems inherent in The
Wish, I thought some of its subtle touches were great, such as the big
social event at the high school being the Winter Brunch.
The Winter *Brunch*. Think about that for a moment, AOQ. Think about
what that implies -- so subtly, so tacitly.
To me, that's good writing.
Clairel
Don Sample
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
Or we can simply take Larry at his word: The whole world sucks, not just
Sunnydale.
peachy ashie passion
> On 15 Mar 2006 14:54:20 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>hopelessly devoted wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Though some may hate it, It is my #1 in season 3 (Don't ask me
>>>why). It truly is a wonderful, wonderful life. Which is weird
>>>because I actually HATE that movie.
>>
>>Since some (like you and JW) love it and a vocal few apparently despise
>>it (thougbh they haven't been so vocal here), I was kinda hoping for
>>another monstrosity like the DMP thread...
>
>
> Don and I are being polite :)
>
> Also, neither of us are the type to try to convince someone that they do
> like something they clearly don't, or vice-versa. I hate, I hate, I hate
> Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset Button. Other people don't
> have that reaction and have tried to convince me I'm wrong, which is as
> much a waste of time as me trying to convince you that you're wrong about
> Becoming Pt2. (which I didn't do).
>
> Even in bad Buffy there is good. I liked the Larry bit, two appearances
> this season and two great lines. I also liked Anyanka's frustrated last
> scene ("granted... granted... granted"), but the slo-mo loving montage of
> the main characters being killed turned me off the way all such scenes turn
> me off (that is, creating an alternate world or whatever, so you can
> lovingly kill off all the characters that you won't Really kill off).
>
>
And that's just a matter of taste, I think. I love the gimmick of
killing off thost characters. LOVE the big giant reset button, so I can
explore the alternate options without messing with the reality i love.
Don Sample
Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
> news:s49h12pe9mcc87pc6...@4ax.com:
>
> > I hate, I hate, I hate
> > Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset Button.
>
> What I like about the resolution of "The Wish" is how perfectly pure
> the reset button is. Everyone is oblivious. Not a single character
> learns a lesson.
>
> This is in contrast to most "alternate universe" stories I've seen.
> For example, just the other day I caught a repeat of "Yesterday's
> Enterprise", which is almost entirely the story of a time loop that
> vanishes. Yet they couldn't resist having Guinan "sense" what was
> going on.
Actually, the future which Guinan somehow sensed was "wrong" was the
future that you got if no one meddled with the time line. In order to
get the "right" future, they had to send the other Enterprise back into
the past, to meddle.
> Likewise in the Repeatedly Exploding Enterprise episode, in
> which the characters somehow started remembering tidbits from previous
> time loops.
The lesson that they should have taken from that experience was "shut up
and *do* something!" They kept blowing up because instead of anyone
actually doing anything on all their trips around the loop, they wasted
all their time sitting around talking about it.
cry...@panix.com
> Kevin wrote:
>
> > Writing quality isn't the criterion for the "Fanfic" label as used in
> > Hines' reviews of Noxon or the ensuing discussions. I think someone
> > else can give a better definition than I can... Zeares?
>
> --I don't have a one-word label for it, but I think what you mean is
> "writing that caters to fans' hankerings and obsessions instead of
> exhibiting a classic concern for structure, narrative logic, etc."
This is generally referred to as "fan service", not "fanfic".
-Crystal
Daniel Damouth
news:dsample-339D85...@news.giganews.com:
> In article <Xns9787CFF46AB3...@66.75.164.120>,
> Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
>> news:s49h12pe9mcc87pc6...@4ax.com:
>>
>> > I hate, I hate, I hate
>> > Pete... (oops, wrong movie) the Giant Reset Button.
>>
>> What I like about the resolution of "The Wish" is how perfectly
>> pure the reset button is. Everyone is oblivious. Not a single
>> character learns a lesson.
>>
>> This is in contrast to most "alternate universe" stories I've
>> seen. For example, just the other day I caught a repeat of
>> "Yesterday's Enterprise", which is almost entirely the story of a
>> time loop that vanishes. Yet they couldn't resist having Guinan
>> "sense" what was going on.
>
> Actually, the future which Guinan somehow sensed was "wrong" was
> the future that you got if no one meddled with the time line. In
> order to get the "right" future, they had to send the other
> Enterprise back into the past, to meddle.
That's true, although I don't know why you wrote it. Guinan not only
sensed that the alternate timeline was "wrong", but after the
alternate time loop vanished, she still seemed to remember something
of it, because of her question regarding Tasha at the very end. So,
something was changed in the "real" timeline.
>> Likewise in the Repeatedly Exploding Enterprise episode, in
>> which the characters somehow started remembering tidbits from
>> previous time loops.
>
> The lesson that they should have taken from that experience was
> "shut up and *do* something!" They kept blowing up because
> instead of anyone actually doing anything on all their trips
> around the loop, they wasted all their time sitting around talking
> about it.
Heh, Riker always has to ask "how do we know that turning around
isn't what got us into trouble last time?"
-Dan Damouth
Arbitrar Of Quality
> This is the first time you've seen Evil Willow - how can you say it's
> her *usual* schtick.
But she doesn't start playing with Angel until mid-episode, by which
point we've gotten to know her routine pretty thoroughly. This isn't
exactly a highly nuanced character here.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Another thing: I remember David Hines discovering (around I Only Have
> Eyes For You) that, in his view, Noxon tends overwhelmingly to write
> fanfic. He thought it was sometimes *good* fanfic, but only sometimes.
> The Wish fits into that theory as well, as does BBB, though from time
> to time you could also make such a case for other writers. I agree
> with Hines for the most part on that issue.
Which raises a question (although others have gotten into it below)...
if the term "fanfic" is applied to everything written by one of the
most prolific writers of the actual canon episodes that make up the
series, doesn't it become a meaningless term?
-AOQ
~we'll see if a definition can be agreed upon~
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Clairel <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> > --I don't have a one-word label for it, but I think what you mean is
> > "writing that caters to fans' hankerings and obsessions instead of
> > exhibiting a classic concern for structure, narrative logic, etc."
>
> This is generally referred to as "fan service", not "fanfic".
The way I've heard it used, "fanservice" tends to mostly involve
near-nudity.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> My biggest issue with it isn't even really about the episode in itself.
> This is the 4th episode in the last 5 that's been built around a kind of
> carnival sideshow mentality. Each in their way has been clever and
> entertaining. But is that what the season is about? The next gimmick?
> It's a little weird, because much about the season is outstanding. Good
> production values. Good acting. Some genuinely clever ideas. The previous
> two shows I'd rate as Excellent. But what's the heart of the season? The
> Slayer gang forever bickering about whether they can trust each other?
> Waiting for the Angel thing to peter out? At this point in the season, I'm
> drifting.
I don't entirely agree. "Lovers Walk" is full of humor, but I wouldn't
call it a sideshow or a gimmick show; it's a story that's all about the
Buffyverse and built upon the events of the past. I'd actually only
classify BC and TW as overly gimmicky to the expense of other things
(and shockingly, I rate them lower than most of the others);
"Homecoming" had a big plot device, but at its heart it was about Buffy
and Cordelia being themselves. As far as what the season's "about," I
like continuity a lot, but I don't think a massive all-consuming story
arc is really essential. We have a few ongoing narratives here,
although some of them are "quiet" ones - Angel, Faith, the Mayor, and
of course the romantic fluctuations. I'd say you were spoiled by S2,
except that it has its share of one-off stories too, especially early
in the year.
And it's funny to hear you dismiss the "forever bickering about whether
they can trust each other." Because if you want to give the season a
unifying theme as well as a unifying narrative... well, as several
people (yourself being one of the most prominent) have convincingly
demonstrated, S3 so far is all about trust. Trust in all its
manifestations. The deep trust the heroes show for each other, the
many ways it can be strained or broken, and the consequences.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
its a girlpower show
xander in speedos
oz waking up clothes discarded in the woods
angel dropping starkers out of hell and then finding a pair of fcc mandated pants
giles in his tee shirt
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
news:dsample-3EDE1E...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <U53Sf.6481$JZ1.2...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
> "Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>
>> This seems to be a fairly polarising episode, at least in the sense of
>> being
>> in in many Top 10 lists, while being not so much to many others. That is
>> understandable given that it has
>> many glaring weaknesses, and many highlights. It just depends on which
>> catches your attention more.
>>
>> The weaknesses are mainly plot holes. The logic of this episode is not
>> like
>> our Earth logic:
>>
>> 1) Cordelia concludes that Buffy is the cause of all her problems just
>> after
>> being
>> knocked into a pile of nasty smelling stuff by a vampire Buffy is
>> fighting.
>> Instead of being killed by said vampire.
>
> Buffy kicked the vamp into her.
True, but the incident shows Cordelia two possible alternative outcomes:
with Buffy present, she gets knocked into a rubbish pile and is embarrassed
in front of her friends. With Buffy absent, the vampire would simply kill
her. For some reason, she chooses the latter as preferable, and in die
course gets her wish.
>> 2) If Anyanka has been around granting wishes - any wishes - to wronged
>> women, how come there are still men in the world?
>
> Because if she let all the men get wished away, she would be out of a
> job. She doesn't have to grant every wish she hears, and she gets to
> choose how she grants wishes. "I wish every man on the planet had their
> balls explode" would be a wish that she'd ignore, or grant by making all
> the golf balls in the world blow up, or something like that.
The fairy tale tradition is that the wish granter does have to grant the
wish, but is given a free rein to interpret it perversly. Nothing is said or
done to suggest Anyanka is in any different position, so I am going with
tradition on this one. She could make some strange interpretations of many
wishes to make all men disappear, but why would she? There is no suggestion
that this is a salaried job for her, which she has an interest in continuing
indefinitely. She is said to be the patron saint of wronged women, someone
on a mission rather than a salary. If one of her clients wants to get rid of
all men, why would she want to misinterpret it? It would hardly be a more
drastic outcome than the one she actually delivers, where not only all men,
but all women also, will be mere vampire fodder,
>>
>> 6) Anyanka is curiously vulnerable. To grant the wish, she has to give
>> her
>> power-center to the wisher. But if it is destroyed, the wish is negated
>> and
>> Anyanka rendered mortal.
>
> Nothing about what she did says she *had* to give Cordy her power
> centre. Maybe that was just her way to put Cordy at ease, and get her
> to make a wish.
I assumed that it was a necessary part of the ritual, because if it wasn't,
it makes her look incredibly stupid. Clearly it is essential to the ritual
that one of them wear it, or else, given it is essential to her continued
immortality, she would be sure to keep it safe in some secure demonic
storage facility. If it works just as well if she wears it, surely any
sensible demon would want to keep it close to them to keep it safe -
particularly given that in the world she is making for Cordelia, nothing
attached to a human can even be as safe as it would be in our world.
--
Apteryx
Lord Usher
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> If no Buffy, The Master rises with The Harvest (we never get to the
> Annointed One or the Hellmouth opening for all the other demons),
Which makes one wonder why the Master decided not to open the Hellmouth,
doesn't it? I guess he decided that ruling over the Bronze was more
important than fulfilling the unholy purpose for which his sect had spent
centuries preparing.
> 2. We needed something to get the amulet back on Anya's neck. I've
> never been able to follow the put it on Cordy for the wish, Cordy dies
> wearing it, yet there it is again on Anya's neck for Giles to snatch
> and smash.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Giles use Cordy's version of the
necklace in his spell to summon Anyanka? Seems like it was probably
returned to her as part of the spell.
The whole resolution is still pretty sloppy, though -- Giles basically
gives up the amulet to have a pointless conversation with Anyanka, then
grabs it back to save the day. Could've saved a lot of trouble if he'd just
smashed the dang thing to begin with.
Unless you want to theorize that Cordy's version of the necklace was only a
simulacrum, so Giles had to summon Anyanka to get the genuine article, but
that only adds more layers of confusion.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Lord Usher
@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:
> I think DMP hit a lot of people's "Xander is a jerk/no he's not"
> buttons.
I don't know about anyone else, but I hated DMP because it was filled with
shallow shrieking pretending to be meaingful character work, and because
the resolution to a pile of serious long-term issues basically boiled down
to "And then the zombies attacked, and everyone forgot what they were
fighting about."
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> The fairy tale tradition is that the wish granter does have to grant the
> wish, but is given a free rein to interpret it perversly.
Fairy tale traditions often get turned on their ears in Buffyland.
> Nothing is said or
> done to suggest Anyanka is in any different position, so I am going with
> tradition on this one. She could make some strange interpretations of many
> wishes to make all men disappear, but why would she? There is no suggestion
> that this is a salaried job for her, which she has an interest in continuing
> indefinitely.
Sebz 'Qbhoyrzrng Cnynpr':
Jura V jnf n iratrnapr qrzba, V pnhfrq cnva naq znlurz,
pregnvayl, ohg V chg va n shyy qnl'f jbex qbvat vg, naq
V tbg pbzcrafngrq nccebcevngryl.
> She is said to be the patron saint of wronged women, someone
> on a mission rather than a salary. If one of her clients wants to get rid of
> all men, why would she want to misinterpret it? It would hardly be a more
> drastic outcome than the one she actually delivers, where not only all men,
> but all women also, will be mere vampire fodder,
Eliminating all men, also eliminates all women within a generation.
> I assumed that it was a necessary part of the ritual, because if it wasn't,
> it makes her look incredibly stupid. Clearly it is essential to the ritual
> that one of them wear it, or else, given it is essential to her continued
> immortality, she would be sure to keep it safe in some secure demonic
> storage facility. If it works just as well if she wears it, surely any
> sensible demon would want to keep it close to them to keep it safe -
> particularly given that in the world she is making for Cordelia, nothing
> attached to a human can even be as safe as it would be in our world.
Ohg nf jr jvyy frr va 'Byqre naq Sne Njnl' vg vf abg arprffnel sbe gur
jvfure gb jrne gur craqnag. Unyserx qbrfa'g tvir Qnja gur craqnag jura
fur znxrf ure jvfu.
Lord Usher
BC2120.172...@news.giganews.com:
> And then there's the actions of Buffy and her Watcher. Giles was in
> Sunnydale. He knew how to get in touch with Buffy's Watcher. If it
> was a local problem, why hadn't he made that phone call years ago?
Yeah, but if it wasn't a local problem, why would Giles have so much
trouble getting the Council to listen to him? "I know there's a lot of
demonic activity in... Cleveland, but I'm sitting here on the mouth of the
Hellmouth that actually *opened*!"
There's no evidence whatsoever that the Master did anything to bring forth
hell on Earth aside from building some crappy blood factory. And, as far as
I'm concerned, since Sunnydale High is still standing even though it's
right on top of the portal that would've vomited forth thousands of titanic
horrors such as the world had never seen, we've got pretty strong evidence
that the Hellmouth *didn't* open.
I mean, come on... One Hellmouth demon cracked open the ground and wrecked
the library in less than five minutes. Do you really think that him and all
his buddies, over the course of *two years*, wouldn't have crushed the
building to powder -- if not the whole *town*?
hopelessly devoted
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> its a girlpower show
While I can see and understand that argument, as a female, I see the
show as more than simply girl power. The women on the show are not all
encompassing. I've have heard the argument before and although it
makes a kind-of sense, it is still too simplistic given that the men on
the show are so complex.
The mere existence of so many male (assuming) posts is proof that this
show offered more than simple girl power. There is a balance at work.
BTVS empowered. Simple enough. It is about power. A power that we
all have and the talent and skills that we all possess. In our own
way, male or female, we have a power of our own.
Now I'm going to bed.
Don Sample
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in news:dsample-
> BC2120.172...@news.giganews.com:
>
> > And then there's the actions of Buffy and her Watcher. Giles was in
> > Sunnydale. He knew how to get in touch with Buffy's Watcher. If it
> > was a local problem, why hadn't he made that phone call years ago?
>
> Yeah, but if it wasn't a local problem, why would Giles have so much
> trouble getting the Council to listen to him? "I know there's a lot of
> demonic activity in... Cleveland, but I'm sitting here on the mouth of the
> Hellmouth that actually *opened*!"
The Council doesn't listen to him because as far as they know, Sunnydale
isn't any worse off than any other place in the world. (With its
"Winter Brunch" socials and monthly memorials for the dead.) They don't
know that the Hellmouth was opened to release the Master. Without Buffy
being there to hear Angel's warning, Giles didn't know about the Master
being trapped in the Hellmouth. He saw that the situation in Sunnydale
went south at the same time it did everywhere else in the world. He had
no reason to suspect that the cause was actually there in Sunnydale.
What he saw happening in Sunnydale was just 'more of the same shit' that
was going on all over the world.
> There's no evidence whatsoever that the Master did anything to bring forth
> hell on Earth aside from building some crappy blood factory. And, as far as
> I'm concerned, since Sunnydale High is still standing even though it's
> right on top of the portal that would've vomited forth thousands of titanic
> horrors such as the world had never seen, we've got pretty strong evidence
> that the Hellmouth *didn't* open.
>
> I mean, come on... One Hellmouth demon cracked open the ground and wrecked
> the library in less than five minutes. Do you really think that him and all
> his buddies, over the course of *two years*, wouldn't have crushed the
> building to powder -- if not the whole *town*?
You are assuming that what we saw in 'Prophecy Girl' was the only way it
could have happened. Jr xabj gung gur Uryyzbhgu Qrzba jnf tebjvat. Vg
tebjf orgjrra 'Cebcurpl Tvey' naq 'Gur Mrccb.' Znlor vg jnf zhpu
fznyyre ng gur gvzr bs 'Gur Uneirfg' naq dhvrgyl fyhax njnl guebhtu gur
frjref.
Jr nyfb frr nabgure nggrzcg gb bcra gur Uryyzbhgu va 'Qbbzrq.' Gung bar
vaibyirq n ohapu bs rnegudhnxrf, juvpu jr fnj ab fvta bs va 'Gur
Uneirfg' be 'Gur Mrccb' naq gurer jrer ab rnegudhnxrf vaibyirq va gur
npghny bcravat bs gur Uryyzbhgu va 'Cebcurpl Tvey' rvgure, fb vg jbhyq
frrz gung gurer'f zber guna bar jnl vg pna or qbar.
Or maybe it didn't break out at all. The Master might have managed a
much more controlled opening of the Hellmouth, and not let things like
that demon out. He wants to rule the world, he doesn't want to hand it
over to new management that wouldn't think much more of him than it does
of the human population.
Don Sample
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:1142446678.588463.312170
> @i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > If no Buffy, The Master rises with The Harvest (we never get to the
> > Annointed One or the Hellmouth opening for all the other demons),
>
> Which makes one wonder why the Master decided not to open the Hellmouth,
> doesn't it? I guess he decided that ruling over the Bronze was more
> important than fulfilling the unholy purpose for which his sect had spent
> centuries preparing.
Letting the really nasty demons out to play kinda screws things up for
the vampires. Vamps *need* people. Without us they have no food supply
(well, they could eat puppies and stuff, but where's the fun in that?)
Nf sbe uvf frpg fcraqvat praghevrf cercnevat sbe vg, gung jnf n onq
ergpba qbar ol gur "Natry" jevgref jub arire obgurerq gb jngpu gur svefg
frnfbaf bs Ohssl.
>
> > 2. We needed something to get the amulet back on Anya's neck. I've
> > never been able to follow the put it on Cordy for the wish, Cordy dies
> > wearing it, yet there it is again on Anya's neck for Giles to snatch
> > and smash.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Giles use Cordy's version of the
> necklace in his spell to summon Anyanka? Seems like it was probably
> returned to her as part of the spell.
>
> The whole resolution is still pretty sloppy, though -- Giles basically
> gives up the amulet to have a pointless conversation with Anyanka, then
> grabs it back to save the day. Could've saved a lot of trouble if he'd just
> smashed the dang thing to begin with.
>
> Unless you want to theorize that Cordy's version of the necklace was only a
> simulacrum, so Giles had to summon Anyanka to get the genuine article, but
> that only adds more layers of confusion.
He didn't realize that her necklace was her power centre until he saw it
glowing on her neck.:
Giles reads from one of his books: "'In order to defeat Anyanka,
one must destroy her power centre. This should reverse all the
wishes she's granted, rendering her mortal and powerless again.'
You see? Without her power centre, she'd just be an ordinary woman
again, and all this would be, um...well, different." He is quite
pleased with himself. "Well, I'd say that my, my Watcher muscles
haven't completely atrophied after all."
Buffy is not impressed. "Great. What's her power centre?"
Giles looks back at his book. "Um, well, um... It doesn't say."
hopelessly devoted
.... naq gurer jrer ab rnegudhnxrf vaibyirq va gur
npghny bcravat bs gur Uryyzbhgu va 'Cebcurpl Tvey' rvgure,
Fbeel, V qbag zrna gb vagreehcg gur qvfphffvba, ohg unir gb pbagraq
gung bar.
Gurer jnf na rnegudhnxr va CT.
Tvyrf: Ub xbevnf cunanlgvr gbhgnl... gnl ahxgrr. 'Gur Znfgre funyy
evfr...' Lrf, lrf, guvf vf vg! 'Gur Znfgre funyy evfr, naq gur
Fynlre...'Zl Tbq!
Gur rnegudhnxr unccraf vzzrqvngryl nsgre.
Gur dhrfgvba vf, jura qvq gurl fjvgpu sebz gur fvk urnqrq horeqrnzba gb
gur hzoreinzcf? Ab zragvba bs gurz hagvy jr trg gb frnfba frira naq
ab zragvba bs gur horeqrnzba ng nyy gura. Hc hagvy gura, jura gur
uryyzbhgu bcraf, jr trg Yvggyr Fubc bs Ubeebef zvahf gur zhfvp.
V fnvq V jnf tbvat gb orq.
Don Sample
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Another thing: We have Buffy's question on arriving in this town that is
clearly overrun by vampires: "Want to tell me what I'm doing here?"
Shouldn't that have been obvious to her, after saving Giles and a bunch
of other people from some vamps? Unless of course there are people who
are just as desperately in need of saving everywhere else in the world.
When she learns about the Master her reaction is: "I might as well do
some good while I'm in this town." Again, a 'supreme vampire' running
things in Sunnydale is no big deal to her. It's the sort of thin she's
seen over and over again.