AOQ Review 3-10: "Amends"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 10: "Amends"
(or "Yeah, and that holiday you have? Chakka Day or whatever? Well,
I've got news for you: Christmas is making a comeback.")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
This one is full of flashbacks and hideous sideburns. No Darla this
time, sadly, but instead we get Jenny Calendar (sort of) back into what
could be a major long-term role. How nuts. Crazy show, yo.
I wasn't thrilled upon realizing that BTVS would, at last, get a
Christmas episode. I don't like Christmas episodes as a rule because
they tend towards buckets of forced sap. (Well, that and the fact
that, being a pinkocommieliberal, I'll stop at nothing in my godless
war against Christmas-themed wrapping paper.) If I were a TV producer,
I'd do a Christmas special and try to make it as depressing as
possible - I'm sick that way. This show, though, tries its
damndest to give us some cheer without being saccharine, and mostly
plays its cards right.
Most of the story is about Angel's past coming back to haunt him.
There are some attempts at intense Angel scenes as the voices in his
head (more on a certain one of those voices in a bit) try to turn him
against Buffy. I say "attempts" because I wouldn't call most of
them either successes or failures, just adequate. A little
hallucinating and groaning goes a long way. Once Buffy becomes the
center of the dreams. the extended dose of sex and violence works
pretty well, and I do like how he seems to have lost control, and then
just being near Buffy helps him sort of regain it. The scenes
involving Giles (including the ones without Angel in them - "you
may have to kill him. Again.") are the best in the A-story. He's
got a lot of deep-seated anger, but he limits it to sarcastic quips.
And yes, they're extremely mean-spirited (but funny) things to say,
but all things considered, he's quite the adult about dealing with
Angel, because he knows decency demands it. If I were in his shoes,
it's possible that I wouldn't have "invited" him in at all, and
just made him stand on the porch while we talked.
Cordelia has one scene saying stuff like "I'm thinking of you.
Okay, I'm done." and then leaves. It's like Season One all over
again. Unfortunately (for me), both the character and the situation
have changed enough since those days that I doubt she'll stay away
from our group for long. I'd be disappointed if she forgave Xander
too easily, though.
There's lots of stuff between Willow and Oz here, and I think I'll
trivialize by summing it all up in one word: awwww...
Well, okay, I can't resist the urge to talk. So let me also mention
that I envy Oz's ability to see straight to the core of a situation
and respond in an unconventionally appropriate way. It played a big
part in why Willow (and We The Audience) got to like him so much in the
first place, and it continues to lead to some really sweet scenes.
Early in the episode Xander makes disparaging comments about Angel,
which made me groan inwardly. Dude, do you somehow not realize that
this is exactly what your friend doesn't need? Well, apparently he
does realize it, because the followup scene in which he gets into the
Chanukah spirit is nice. Is he actually learning something from the
events of "Revelations?" What is the world coming to? His crush on
Buffy from S1/2 has become pretty irrelevant this year, but as we've
been seeing for quite some time, there's a real bond between these
two mostest best of friends that can transcend that.
Finally, the most conventional of our holiday-cheer subplots concerns
Faith (the third episode after "Revelations," as predicted. Damn,
I'm good. Although I'd expected her to appear between then and
now) who doesn't have anyone to drink eggnog with. These scenes are
as straightforward as it gets and rest entirely on the script and the
actors to sell them without overplaying things. And "Amends" is
more or less up to the task there. The one false note is Faith's
exaggerated repetition of her party story; the rest tends to be solid
for both the little touches ("work, damn it!") and the sincere
moments ("I'm glad you came"). The joy of knowing that there are
people who want you around is pretty universal.
Mrs. Quality got really annoyed by Boreanaz's constant loud panting.
[She just walked by and told me to add this: "I've noticed it
lately, and I've had enough."]
Is there a better summary of Buffy's attitude towards life than
"find me something I can pummel?"
After they introduced the dead trees, I spent most of the episode
trying to figure out how it'd be relevant. Didn't figure it out
until Buffy did, though. At first I was afraid it'd just be a cursed
Christmas tree or something.
On a strictly plot level, the idea of something that brought Angel back
to become its vessel is pretty good. The thing about the First thing,
though, is that a long-running TV series can only have so many new
mostest great ultimate evils from beyond the palest pale before things
get tiresome (unless Buffy's there to mock the excesses: "Alright,
I get it, you're evil. Do we have to chat about it all day?").
It's only interesting if you put a face on it. So of course that's
what the show does. And what a face. Now, keep in mind again that I
grew up watching _Star Trek_. And yet I was still unprepared for the
ingeniousness that BTVS shows in bringing back dead characters without
cheapening said deaths. First-as-Calendar could be quite a villain if
it sticks around. It has all of Jenny's wit ("I wanna die in bed
surrounded by fat grandchildren, but guess that's off the menu") and
manipulative ways, mixed with what looks like some of Angelus's knack
for hurting people. This has real promise.
The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
for me. That's a shame, since it's kinda the climax of the
episode, so it leaves a sour taste in one's mouth and colors the
whole show. I'm not saying that it's a little cheesy. I'm
saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
"cheez" you see in snack foods. The buildup is there, and the
general talking points are right (Angel's 'weakness' as set up
earlier, all the failed attempts to let go, etc.), but the dialogue
just gets so clunky and unwieldy... "Angel, you have the power to do
real good!" "You can never understand what I've done!" "I
wish that I wished you dead! I don't!" Oh, come ON. After the
whole episode worked so hard to avoid this kind of excess too...
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "Angel's on top again?"
Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
magic. I wasn't ensorcelled, but I caught a whiff of it. Also,
although he didn't really say much, I think that the Mutant Enemy
alien was a fan...
So...
One-sentence summary: Tends towards the melodramatic at times, but
pretty okay overall.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good
8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent
9) "The Wish" - Decent
10) "Amends" - Good]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> to become its vessel is pretty good. The thing about the First thing,
evil doesnt always worry about truthfulness
it claims it brought angel out of hell
but that doesnt mean it did
> Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
> sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
> magic. I wasn't ensorcelled, but I caught a whiff of it. Also,
its pretty easy to convince audiences theres a devil or satan
or first evil or demon
but try to convince an audience thats theres a first good
sea level snow fall in california is rare but not impossible
it certainly wasnt first evil since that was willing to let angel burn
so it could be coincidence and rare but natural snow
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
I have always liked this episode but it was only this time re-watching
that I realized the title "Amends" is not just about Angel (and Buffy)
coming to terms with his past, but also the reconciliation between Oz
and Willow. And, just now reading your review, it can also refer to the
relationship between Faith and Buffy, almost but not quite broken at the
end of "Revelations."
[As I watched the end this time, I imagined that Angel and Buffy slowly
made their way back to Casa Summers and had a nice Christmas dinner with
Joyce and Faith, and Buffy made good on her promise to tell Faith
"everything" about what was going on.]
The only thing that's ever bothered me is the fact that they keep saying
"the sun is going to come up any second" and it's still pitch black
everywhere. It's really hard for me to be caught up in the immediate
danger to Angel when it looks like the middle of the night instead of
just before sunrise.
Other than that though, I agree with your assessment. Good, and nice to
see Jenny Calendar again, even if she was evil this time.
Mel
Bill Reid
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142561877.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 10: "Amends"
>
DON'T FORGET THE BAD ACCENTS!!!
> If I were a TV producer,
> I'd do a Christmas special and try to make it as depressing as
> possible - I'm sick that way.
Ever see the two-part "Married...With Children" Christmas episode
called "It's A Bundyful Life"? Twisted up the whole Dickens thing with
Sam Kinison as the "guardian angel" after Al electrocutes himself putting
up his crappy lights, and Al realizing that if he had never been born,
his entire family would have been much better off (Kelly was a straight-A
virgin, Peggy was married to rich good-looking man, etc.). Al decides
to go back just to make them miserable the way they made him
miserable...
>
> Mrs. Quality got really annoyed by Boreanaz's constant loud panting.
> [She just walked by and told me to add this: "I've noticed it
> lately, and I've had enough."]
>
Vampires sure do pant and even sweat a lot on this show, despite
being "dead" with no heartbeat or "breath". I have my own theory
about this...
> Is there a better summary of Buffy's attitude towards life than
> "find me something I can pummel?"
>
Well, you can't win a verbal argument with the devil, unless you're
birthday boy Jesus...
> The buildup is there, and the
> general talking points are right (Angel's 'weakness' as set up
> earlier, all the failed attempts to let go, etc.), but the dialogue
> just gets so clunky and unwieldy... "Angel, you have the power to do
> real good!" "You can never understand what I've done!" "I
> wish that I wished you dead! I don't!" Oh, come ON. After the
> whole episode worked so hard to avoid this kind of excess too...
>
Yeah, you're right. Nice acting though, and you might want to
salvage, "It's not the demon in me that needs killing, it's the man."
A little clunky, but gets at a point they make more fully later on,
that a lot of people miss...
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "Angel's on top again?"
>
Did you like the way Joyce side-stepped inviting Giles to dinner?
---
William Ernest Reid
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>On a strictly plot level, the idea of something that brought Angel back
>>to become its vessel is pretty good. The thing about the First thing,
>
>
> evil doesnt always worry about truthfulness
> it claims it brought angel out of hell
> but that doesnt mean it did
Giles' research seemed to suggest the First had the power to do it, but
that's not concrete evidence it actually did.
Personally, I think the First was lying. I can't imagine it would go
through the trouble to bring Angel back only to be satisfied if he just
offed himself as a result ("that's not the plan, but it'll work"). In
hell, he was already effectively dead anyway. If the First's goal was to
take him away from Buffy, leaving him in hell would be a good way to do
that. Bs pbhefr, jr frr zhpu yngre gung juvyr gur svefg znl or rivy vg
ernyyl vfa'g nyy gung oevtug.
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Tends towards the melodramatic at times, but
> pretty okay overall.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
One of the worst episodes of the first three seasons. I was going to
say this was the worst Joss-written episode of the first three seasons,
but then I remembered that he also wrote "Ted." So scratch that. But it
was still awful.
All the Buffy/Angel stuff was so overwrought and melodramatic I could
hardly stand to watch it. I never really cared one way or the other
about the Buffy/Angel 'ship prior to this, but in this episode was
painful. Angel's tortured and suicidal! Can Buffy save him with a big,
inflated speech and the power of her luuuuuuuuuve? Oh no, it's not
working! But wait! What's this? A convienent deus ex machina comes
along to save the day!
Add in Willow's utterly transparent attempt to manipulate Oz, and you
end up with an utterly terrible episode. So to put it succinctly, I
couldn't disagree with you more.
One Bit Shy
news:1142561877.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Early in the episode Xander makes disparaging comments about Angel,
> which made me groan inwardly. Dude, do you somehow not realize that
> this is exactly what your friend doesn't need? Well, apparently he
> does realize it, because the followup scene in which he gets into the
> Chanukah spirit is nice. Is he actually learning something from the
> events of "Revelations?" What is the world coming to? His crush on
> Buffy from S1/2 has become pretty irrelevant this year, but as we've
> been seeing for quite some time, there's a real bond between these
> two mostest best of friends that can transcend that.
I don't think I'm going to go deep into this episode. Too much work night
posting lately is wearing me out.
But I did want to mention that his early remarks to Buffy didn't exactly
evoke an encouraging response. And mainly to point out that Xander
overheard Buffy's conversation with Giles before he volunteered to help. So
he heard, for example, "I'm trying to put all this behind me. And I'm not
going to be able to as long as we're doing guest spots in each other's
dreams."
So, from the point of view of stopping the return of Angelus, he has
motivation. Still, it's different than, "Faster Pussycat. Die. Die."
Hearing that conversation (and don't forget Giles part too) may even have
helped him understand a little how hard this is for Buffy. So a little mix
of Revelations lessons and new information (and maybe even some Lovers Walk
lessons). A little mix of still gotta deal with Angel, but smartly, and
more compassionate for Buffy. Lots of potential here. Lets hope it lasts.
> Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
> sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
> magic. I wasn't ensorcelled, but I caught a whiff of it. Also,
> although he didn't really say much, I think that the Mutant Enemy
> alien was a fan...
I sometimes describe this episode as BTVS finds God. The ending was
literally a miracle. Makes the episode kind of unique.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Tends towards the melodramatic at times, but
> pretty okay overall.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Good is where I'd put it too. Someday I might explain why.
OBS
kenm47
and mainly for the Christmas "miracle." I haven't rewatched it (or this
season) for a long time (I think Buffy was still running the last time
I did).
Yes, there were the Oz/Willow moments, and even a Xander who seemed to
FINALLY be a friend and not just a jealous envious putz. And it was
nice to se a rapproachment between the Slayers.
But DB's bad acting (or so it seemed to me then) except when being
Angelus, and the crummy accents and the whole idea of a First Evil and
some countering cosmic "good" just turned me off.
Time has gone by and for whatever reason SMG's tears while begging
Angel to hide from the sun, and the whole denouement were more
affecting for me in this viewing. Maybe I'm just getting older, or just
plain old.
BTW, I've often nostalgically missed season specific TV episodes. I
remember when they all, or so it seemed, had them and it was a
challenge to come up with something fresh, even Bonanza. I can't
recall the plot now, but by far the most affecting Christmas show I
ever saw was the one on My So-Called Life - I just recall being
seriously weepy at the time it aired and something about a real angel.
I also miss the variety show specials, but then I also miss The Ed
Sullivan Show, and so much more.
I can now go with "Good" for Amends.
Ken (Brooklyn)
jil...@hotmail.com
Mel wrote:
> Bs pbhefr, jr frr zhpu yngre gung juvyr gur svefg znl or rivy vg
> ernyyl vfa'g nyy gung oevtug.
V yngre pnzr gb gur pbapyhfvba gung Gur Svefg qbrfa'g cnegvphyneyl unir
na vffhr jvgu fbhyrq inzcverf, jvgu Fynlref be jvgu Uryyzbhguf. Gur
Svefg unf na vffhr jvgu gur pbawhapgvba bs gur guerr. Vg pbhyqa'g trg
ng Natry hagvy ur jnf rzbgvbanyyl penpxrq. Nsgre vgf snvyher jvgu
Natry, vg svtherq gur orfg jnl jbhyq or gb trg va rneyl. Naq obl, qvq
vg trg vagb Fcvxr....
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 10: "Amends"
> (or "Yeah, and that holiday you have? Chakka Day or whatever? Well,
> I've got news for you: Christmas is making a comeback.")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> I wasn't thrilled upon realizing that BTVS would, at last, get a
> Christmas episode. I don't like Christmas episodes as a rule because
> they tend towards buckets of forced sap. (Well, that and the fact
> that, being a pinkocommieliberal, I'll stop at nothing in my godless
> war against Christmas-themed wrapping paper.) If I were a TV producer,
> I'd do a Christmas special and try to make it as depressing as
> possible - I'm sick that way. This show, though, tries its
> damndest to give us some cheer without being saccharine, and mostly
> plays its cards right.
I always wanted them to do a Christmas show in which it would turn out
that Santa Claus was some sort of evil child eating demon. (Naq gura va
'Gur Obql' Naln erirnyf gung Fnagn Pynhf *vf* na rivy puvyq rngvat
qrzba.)
> Mrs. Quality got really annoyed by Boreanaz's constant loud panting.
> [She just walked by and told me to add this: "I've noticed it
> lately, and I've had enough."]
He's a vampire. What's he breathing for?
> Is there a better summary of Buffy's attitude towards life than
> "find me something I can pummel?"
Not really.
> On a strictly plot level, the idea of something that brought Angel back
> to become its vessel is pretty good.
I don't recall anything being said about the First wanting Angel to be
its vessel? Where did you get that from?
(Oh yeah, just cause the First takes the credit for bringing Angel back,
doesn't mean it did it. It's evil. It may lie sometimes.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
kenm47
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> I sometimes describe this episode as BTVS finds God. The ending was
> literally a miracle. Makes the episode kind of unique.
>
But was the miracle from anything a Christian (or Jew or Muslim) would
recognize as their God?
Daniel Damouth
news:1142570470.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> BTW, I've often nostalgically missed season specific TV episodes.
> I remember when they all, or so it seemed, had them and it was a
> challenge to come up with something fresh, even Bonanza. I can't
> recall the plot now, but by far the most affecting Christmas show
> I ever saw was the one on My So-Called Life - I just recall being
> seriously weepy at the time it aired and something about a real
> angel.
Loved that episode of MSCL. As you probably know, Buffy was described
early on as some sort of combination of My So-Called Life and The X-
Files. Both great shows.
There was also some connection between the episode "I Only Have Eyes
For You" and the weird 50's influenced flashbacks episode of MSCL.
-Dan Damouth
eli...@gmail.com
watching I'll be happy to tell.
eli...@gmail.com
>saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
>"cheez" you see in snack foods.
Definitely. But - it doesn't work. It was snow that saved Angel's life,
not overwrought exclamations of love. Still annoying though.
Stephen Tempest
>Personally, I think the First was lying. I can't imagine it would go
>through the trouble to bring Angel back only to be satisfied if he just
>offed himself as a result ("that's not the plan, but it'll work").
Maybe. But if you're an immortal, incredibly powerful entity, exactly
how much trouble is it to bring Angel back from Hell? Maybe The First
didn't have some grand plan - maybe It was just bored, and decided to
see what would happen if It moved a few pieces around on the board.
It could cause some heartbreak and suffering either way.
Ultimate Evils just wanna have fun...
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>(Well, that and the fact
>that, being a pinkocommieliberal, I'll stop at nothing in my godless
>war against Christmas-themed wrapping paper.)
If it helps, bear in mind that Joss Whedon apparently holds similar
views to you himself... So bear that in mind when watching a
Christmas episode written by him.
>The one false note is Faith's
>exaggerated repetition of her party story;
Faith's a bad liar. And her first reaction to any emotionally
challenging situation is to lie about it and push people away.
>The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
>for me. That's a shame, since it's kinda the climax of the
>episode, so it leaves a sour taste in one's mouth and colors the
>whole show. I'm not saying that it's a little cheesy. I'm
>saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
>"cheez" you see in snack foods. The buildup is there, and the
>general talking points are right (Angel's 'weakness' as set up
>earlier, all the failed attempts to let go, etc.), but the dialogue
>just gets so clunky and unwieldy... "Angel, you have the power to do
>real good!" "You can never understand what I've done!" "I
>wish that I wished you dead! I don't!" Oh, come ON. After the
>whole episode worked so hard to avoid this kind of excess too...
I liked it, if only for the quality of desperation SMG's acting
brought to the role. And maybe because I like cheesiness from time to
time. It's certainly brought to a head all the on-again, off-again
aspects of their relationship this season - so what happens next?
Also, I'd say that this line sums up Buffy's (and Joss's) attitude to
life the best:
"Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's every day.
It's what we have to do and we can do it together"
Or, to put it another way:
"Gur uneqrfg guvat va guvf jbeyq vf gb yvir va vg."
Or even:
"Vs abguvat jr qb znggref, gura nyy gung znggref vf jung jr qb."
>Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
>sums up the episode.
Notice how the first flakes of snow began to fall just as Buffy said
"If I can't convince you you have a place in the world, then I don't
know what will."?
Plus, I think this is the second time we've seen direct evidence of a
Higher Power apparently working for Good in the world - the first
being Whistler's role in Becoming. And both examples were for
Angel's benefit. And the name 'Angel' means 'Messenger of a Higher
Power'. Coincidence? Blatant misdirection? Set-up for his own
spin-off series? Stay tuned...
Although, of course, please note the use of the word "apparently". We
have no way of knowing, as yet, whether the power that sent Whistler
to get Angel off his ass and persuade him to help Buffy in 'Becoming
1', and then sent a snowfall to save him from a fiery death in
'Amends', is actually 'Good' in any sense humans would recognise...
A final point - note that Xander sleeps outside to avoid his family
arguments over Christmas. I can't remember how much has been
established so far about his family, but this indicates that they are
even more dysfunctional than the average family gets at this time of
year. And his response is to avoid confrontation and clear out.
Interesting...
Stephen
hopelessly devoted
> Season Three, Episode 10: "Amends"
Sorry, not on my list. I don't hate it. It's just a little bit too
much of...............
> This one is full of flashbacks and hideous sideburns. No Darla this
> time, sadly, but instead we get Jenny Calendar (sort of) back into what
> could be a major long-term role. How nuts. Crazy show, yo.
Angel seems to have been a very bad boy, but a bad boy in which
country. It's a little hard to tell by his accent which is all I seem
to be able to listen to.
Seeing Jenny. Both wonderful and painful. The roses. The candles.
The music. Ahhhhh!
> I wasn't thrilled upon realizing that BTVS would, at last, get a
> Christmas episode. I don't like Christmas episodes as a rule because
> they tend towards buckets of forced sap. (Well, that and the fact
> that, being a pinkocommieliberal, I'll stop at nothing in my godless
> war against Christmas-themed wrapping paper.) If I were a TV producer,
> I'd do a Christmas special and try to make it as depressing as
> possible - I'm sick that way. This show, though, tries its
> damndest to give us some cheer without being saccharine, and mostly
> plays its cards right.
> Well, okay, I can't resist the urge to talk. So let me also mention
> that I envy Oz's ability to see straight to the core of a situation
> and respond in an unconventionally appropriate way. It played a big
> part in why Willow (and We The Audience) got to like him so much in the
> first place, and it continues to lead to some really sweet scenes.
Oz seems to have a true balance in the heart head dept. It would have
surprised me had he simply broken it off. Willow still has to deal
with her (past and present) relationship with Xander, but at least Oz
is willing to try. Of course had he been impailed....
> Is he actually learning something from the
> events of "Revelations?" What is the world coming to? His crush on
> Buffy from S1/2 has become pretty irrelevant this year, but as we've
> been seeing for quite some time, there's a real bond between these
> two mostest best of friends that can transcend that.
On first viewing and still today, it is a wonderful moment. All bark
and no bite, he's a big teddy-bear. As for the rest.........
> Finally, the most conventional of our holiday-cheer subplots concerns
> Faith (the third episode after "Revelations," as predicted. Damn,
> I'm good. ........................The joy of knowing that there are
> people who want you around is pretty universal.
Oh, that one's too easy so I won't go there.
I actually expected her to show up. After everything that happened, at
least for me, it was the highlight of the ep. The rest have a history
together and she's still new girl in town with no where else to go.
Although I don't believe the repitition to be one of character or
writing flaw, but rather the obvious lie that sends a message. It's
evasive and a little hurtful for B but in the end, it's also a little
revealing and vulnerable. But that's just me.
> Mrs. Quality got really annoyed by Boreanaz's constant loud panting.
> [She just walked by and told me to add this: "I've noticed it
> lately, and I've had enough."]
Again, I knew he was getting his own show, I just wasn't sure how he
was going to pull it off.
> though, is that a long-running TV series can only have so many new
> mostest great ultimate evils from beyond the palest pale before things
> get tiresome
Define tiresome.
> The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
> for me. That's a shame, since it's kinda the climax of the
> episode, so it leaves a sour taste in one's mouth and colors the
> whole show. I'm not saying that it's a little cheesy. I'm
> saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
> "cheez" you see in snack foods. The buildup is there, and the
> general talking points are right (Angel's 'weakness' as set up
> earlier, all the failed attempts to let go, etc.), but the dialogue
> just gets so clunky and unwieldy... "Angel, you have the power to do
> real good!" "You can never understand what I've done!" "I
> wish that I wished you dead! I don't!" Oh, come ON. After the
> whole episode worked so hard to avoid this kind of excess too...
Probably my favorite and least favorite part of the show. Again, maybe
just DB's delivery at times. I thought SMG did great and I really felt
for her. Which is interesting because Angel was about to become pile
of man sand. My initial thoughts, "OK. So Angel dies." Nothing.
Zip. Zilch. Of course for B, everything was right on target.
> Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
> sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
> magic. I wasn't ensorcelled, but I caught a whiff of it.
Having grown up in the snow, my suspended belief system tends to come
crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
say NO WAY IN HELL! Snow in California - Sure. 6 inches in 5-10-15-20
min and let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO WAY IN HELL! It was a
very nice moment on the surface, everyone coming out to see, Xander
pulling the sleeping bag over his head, but NO WAY IN HE HE HE HELLLLL!
Probably the finest moment in the whole ep was Beck's Magic Snow. It's
not my favorite piece but does a incredible job of capturing that
Chanukah spirit of peace.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> If it helps, bear in mind that Joss Whedon apparently holds similar
> views to you himself... So bear that in mind when watching a
> Christmas episode written by him.
If you haven't seen the "Objects In Space" commentary, Joss gives a
borderline-incomprehensible summary of his religious/spiritual
philosophy.
> >The one false note is Faith's
> >exaggerated repetition of her party story;
>
> Faith's a bad liar. And her first reaction to any emotionally
> challenging situation is to lie about it and push people away.
Yeah, I liked the scene, it's just that the she was pretty obviously
lying the first time, in a not-over-the-top way. It only gets a little
excessive when she says the same thing again two seconds later.
> Also, I'd say that this line sums up Buffy's (and Joss's) attitude to
> life the best:
>
> "Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's every day.
> It's what we have to do and we can do it together"
It's also the kind of line that's really hard to deliver in a
conversation scene and have it sound remotely convincing.
> Plus, I think this is the second time we've seen direct evidence of a
> Higher Power apparently working for Good in the world - the first
> being Whistler's role in Becoming.
Not only does the "working for good" deserve an "apparently," but so
does the "Higher Power." The vagueness here is kind of nice:
hopelessly devoted's objections aside, there's no concrete proof that
it's magic snow or anything, although the circumstantial evidence is
very suggestive. If it's a miracle, it's a quiet enough one to fit the
modern world. it supports belief in a Higher Good Power in the
Buffyverse for those who have it, but it doesn't prove it.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Bill Reid wrote:
> > If I were a TV producer,
> > I'd do a Christmas special and try to make it as depressing as
> > possible - I'm sick that way.
>
> Ever see the two-part "Married...With Children" Christmas episode
> called "It's A Bundyful Life"? Twisted up the whole Dickens thing with
> Sam Kinison as the "guardian angel" after Al electrocutes himself putting
> up his crappy lights, and Al realizing that if he had never been born,
> his entire family would have been much better off (Kelly was a straight-A
> virgin, Peggy was married to rich good-looking man, etc.). Al decides
> to go back just to make them miserable the way they made him
> miserable...
Funny stuff.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>
>>Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
>>sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
>>magic. I wasn't ensorcelled, but I caught a whiff of it.
>
>
> Having grown up in the snow, my suspended belief system tends to come
> crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
> say NO WAY IN HELL! Snow in California - Sure. 6 inches in 5-10-15-20
> min and let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO WAY IN HELL!
If by that you mean that you're not going to *get* that much in 20
minutes, don't be too sure. Back in '85, we had a freak snowstorm here
in SE Kentucky that resulted in 8+ inches in about an hour. By the next
morning, we had around 24 inches on the ground, and the drifts were
*over the hood* of my '75 Chevy Malibu. That's definitely *not normal*
for us.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Apteryx
news:1142570470.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The first time I saw this episode I mostly hated it for the treacle,
> and mainly for the Christmas "miracle." I haven't rewatched it (or this
> season) for a long time (I think Buffy was still running the last time
> I did).
>
> Yes, there were the Oz/Willow moments, and even a Xander who seemed to
> FINALLY be a friend and not just a jealous envious putz. And it was
> nice to se a rapproachment between the Slayers.
>
> But DB's bad acting (or so it seemed to me then) except when being
> Angelus, and the crummy accents and the whole idea of a First Evil and
> some countering cosmic "good" just turned me off.
>
> Time has gone by and for whatever reason SMG's tears while begging
> Angel to hide from the sun, and the whole denouement were more
> affecting for me in this viewing. Maybe I'm just getting older, or just
> plain old.
>
> BTW, I've often nostalgically missed season specific TV episodes. I
> remember when they all, or so it seemed, had them and it was a
> challenge to come up with something fresh, even Bonanza. I can't
> recall the plot now, but by far the most affecting Christmas show I
> ever saw was the one on My So-Called Life - I just recall being
> seriously weepy at the time it aired and something about a real angel.
My feelings about that episode of MSCL (So-Called Angels) are even more
mixed than they are about Amends (although my rating for it is very similar
to Amends, just very slightly higher). Everything about the angel (the
departed spirit of a homeless girl) is way schmaltzier than anything in
Amends (except the initial scenes where you think she is a living homeless
girl who sneaked into the school to keep warm). OTOH there is some genuinely
moving stuff with Angela's friend Ricky becoming homeless that gets me weepy
when I watch it (I have MSCL on DVD). It is not the religious sentiment that
keeps me from rating that episode higher than I do (Ricky is portrayed as a
genuine believer, who lights candles for people he wants to help; the other
characters are less so, but drawn to it at Christmas) - its just the damned
angel!
I don't have as strongly atagonistic feelings about the Angel in Amends, but
it doesn't have anything as good as Ricky being homeless and pretending not
to be either. Like you and AOQ, I'd call it good. Its my 43rd favourite BtVS
episode, 11th best in Season 3
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:9OpSf.611$bn3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Ever see the two-part "Married...With Children" Christmas episode
> called "It's A Bundyful Life"? Twisted up the whole Dickens thing with
> Sam Kinison as the "guardian angel" after Al electrocutes himself putting
> up his crappy lights, and Al realizing that if he had never been born,
> his entire family would have been much better off (Kelly was a straight-A
> virgin, Peggy was married to rich good-looking man, etc.). Al decides
> to go back just to make them miserable the way they made him
> miserable...
Maybe they had the knack for Xmas specials. I didn't see that one, but the
only Married With Children episode I remember fondly is the Xmas one where
they have to deal with a dead skydiving santa (never actually shown) after
his parachute fails.
--
Apteryx
hopelessly devoted
St. Louis, MO. Freaky cold front and lots of snow - Yes. Walk down
Main Street going ooooh aaaaaah - No! Running for the nearest
thermostat while repeatedly telling yourself, I'm Moving to California
would be more like it.
Rowan Hawthorn
Ah. Gotcha.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> My feelings about that episode of MSCL (So-Called Angels) are even more
> mixed than they are about Amends (although my rating for it is very similar
> to Amends, just very slightly higher). Everything about the angel (the
> departed spirit of a homeless girl) is way schmaltzier than anything in
> Amends (except the initial scenes where you think she is a living homeless
> girl who sneaked into the school to keep warm). OTOH there is some genuinely
> moving stuff with Angela's friend Ricky becoming homeless that gets me weepy
> when I watch it (I have MSCL on DVD). It is not the religious sentiment that
> keeps me from rating that episode higher than I do (Ricky is portrayed as a
> genuine believer, who lights candles for people he wants to help; the other
> characters are less so, but drawn to it at Christmas) - its just the damned
> angel!
Same opinions here, albeit a little lesser (no weepiness and less
hatred of the angel. But yeah, loved the stuff with Ricky, not so wild
about Angela's mom and the angel.
-AOQ
~I've only seen a few episodes of MSCL~
Carlos Moreno
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "Angel's on top again?"
And no "yeah, yeah, I get it, you're evil, do we have to
chit chat about it all night?" ?? :-)
> One-sentence summary: Tends towards the melodramatic at times, but
> pretty okay overall.
I normally tend to feel extreme dislike for the melodramatic
moments -- to the point that I rank that scene of the snow
at the end (well, all the pre-snow scene) the *worst* of the
series. If it weren't for that, I'd probably rank the episode
"Excellent", since I *really* have a soft spot for the
flashbacks (that's one of the foremost reasons why I so
deeply love Becoming, which is the episode that introduces
the flashbacks in the series); in this case [Amends], I
loved the detail that Buffy and Angel's dreams crossed.
Also, I feel 250% exactly as you about christmas and
christmas themes and christmas episodes!!!!
Pretty good stuff, pretty written-and-directed-by-JW-worthy,
except for the melodramatic ending, I find.
Carlos
--
kenm47
(More OT thoughts brought on by the forced nostalgia of "Amends")
Me too. Just a few AFAICR. I just happened to catch that Xmas episode -
just that once, and never saw it again. You guys are refeshing little
bits of my recollection about it. I remember that Ricky and the mom
were big factors, exactly how remains a blur but that homelessness
current does sound familiar.
Mostly I just remember what a pleasant surprise it was in a show that
seemed to otherwise be so grounded in "reality" of the horror of the
teenage years, and how well it was done. At this point I would rather
keep my vague memory of it being affecting than see it again and now,
as I've become even more jaded and cynical, just find it trite.
Sometimes it's best not to try to go home again.
On the other hand, I would still hope that SciFi channel picks up and
reruns ALL the Doctor Who they can get their hands on. :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
lpad...@voicenet.com
the whole Buffy-Angel relationship. Call me a heretic, but this
episode, especially the treacly, literal deus-ex-machina ending, brings
out the worst in the chemistry between the two characters and probably
between DB and SMG. One of the big reasons I'm not a big fan of the
earlier seasons.
Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike either SMG or David Boreanaz (I
also happen to be from the Philadelphia area where David Boreanaz
Senior, aka Dave Roberts, is a local TV icon and elder statesman) or
the character of Angel. But that episode and particularly the ending
left a bad aftertaste in my mouth. I can't think of any other
deus-ex-machina occurrence in BtVS, at least to that extent. It's made
worse in light of the way that Buffy remains so agnostic for the rest
of the series. The whole thing was so heavy-handed and inconsistent.
Jeff Jacoby
> In article <1142561877.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> Mrs. Quality got really annoyed by Boreanaz's constant loud panting.
>> [She just walked by and told me to add this: "I've noticed it
>> lately, and I've had enough."]
>
> He's a vampire. What's he breathing for?
Breathing is a reflex that doesn't go away?
However, that still doesn't explain how a cold-blooded
vampire can make clouds of vapor with its breath.
Jeff
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
> for me. [...] I'm not saying that it's a little cheesy. I'm
> saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
> "cheez" you see in snack foods.
For me, the entirety of the Buffy and Angel "romance" is one big cheese
ball. This is just more of the same.
> Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
> sums up the episode.
Magic snow. Good times, good times.
> AOQ rating: Good
I realy didn't like the episode when first I saw it. Boreanaz just
wasn't up to the requirements, and that dragged it all down. Plus,
well, B/A is boring. There are great scenes here, Giles confronting
Angel at his apartment being the best of them, but overall, meh.
But as time went by, and I could overlook the cheese and get past
Boreanaz's attempt at acting, I've come to appreciate the story a bit
more. Naq, jryy, gur frnepu sbe erqrzcgvba qvq, nsgre nyy, sbez gur
ragver onfvf bs _Natry_. Ng yrnfg gur orggre cneg bs _Natry_.
-- Terry
kenm47
There is that.
ROT13:
Naq V jbhyq fnl sbe zr, gung'f ubj V sryg nobhg vg hagvy abj. Abj V pna
or n gnq zber sbetvivat xabjvat jurer gurl hygvzngryl gevrq gb tb jvgu
obgu frevrf. Gura, vg whfg frrzrq n jnl gb cevzr gur nhqvrapr sbe gur
fcva-bss, jul jbhyq Natry tb bss gb qb "tbbq" ba uvf bja. Va n jnl vg
fhpprrqrq, ng yrnfg, VZB, sbe n juvyr sbe obgu frevrf.
V unq cerivbhfyl orra naablrq ol Juvfgyre orvat "frag," ohg, vg ghearq
bhg, gung jnf nyfb fhccbfrq va gur freivpr bs NgF, ohg qvqa'g o/p gur
npgbe unq fbzr qeht vffhrf (vebavp, ru?).
Besides, it was still nice to see Robia.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Jeff Jacoby
[snip]
> Having grown up in the snow, my suspended belief system tends to come
> crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
> say NO WAY IN HELL! Snow in California - Sure. 6 inches in 5-10-15-20
> min and let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO WAY IN HELL! It was a
For coastal California, absolutely. But if you've never
seen it snow in Donner Pass (near Lake Tahoe), well...it's
pretty damn impressive!
Jeff
Lord Usher
news:TcySf.6803$JZ1.2...@news.xtra.co.nz:
> My feelings about that episode of MSCL (So-Called Angels) are even
> more mixed than they are about Amends (although my rating for it is
> very similar to Amends, just very slightly higher). Everything about
> the angel (the departed spirit of a homeless girl) is way schmaltzier
> than anything in Amends (except the initial scenes where you think she
> is a living homeless girl who sneaked into the school to keep warm).
> OTOH there is some genuinely moving stuff with Angela's friend Ricky
> becoming homeless that gets me weepy when I watch it (I have MSCL on
> DVD). It is not the religious sentiment that keeps me from rating that
> episode higher than I do (Ricky is portrayed as a genuine believer,
> who lights candles for people he wants to help; the other characters
> are less so, but drawn to it at Christmas) - its just the damned
> angel!
Yikes, you guys are way more generous than I was. That damned angel was the
deal-breaker of all deal-breakers for me. So dreadfully earnest and weepy
and full of OPRAH-grade faux-spirituality. I can't even think about the
phrase "How did you die?" without wanting to throw myself out the freaking
window.
Now, a Christmas angel who comes down to tell you what a heinous monster
you were and how you'll never be anything else... that's something new and
compelling. Which is to say, I've always liked "Amends" way more than most
people.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Lord Usher
@news.giganews.com:
>> On a strictly plot level, the idea of something that brought Angel back
>> to become its vessel is pretty good.
>
> I don't recall anything being said about the First wanting Angel to be
> its vessel? Where did you get that from?
"This is what you are. This is why we brought you back."
> (Oh yeah, just cause the First takes the credit for bringing Angel back,
> doesn't mean it did it. It's evil. It may lie sometimes.)
It may also tell the truth, if that suits its purpose. And Giles certainly indicates
that the First's acolytes *could've* brought Angel back from hell.
That's one of the most interesting parts of the episode, the idea that we just don't
know whether Angel was brought back for good or ill. Seems a shame to just dismiss
the question out of hand.
Don Sample
Jeff Jacoby <jja...@not.real.com> wrote:
He doesn't change temperature instantly. If he moves from someplace
warm to someplace cold, his body will be warmer than its surroundings.
And "cold blooded" doesn't mean the body is at ambient temperature. It
means that the body doesn't try to maintain a constant temperature. Any
sort of activity on the part of a vampire will cause its body to warm
up. (Maybe that's why they pant after exertion: they don't sweat
efficiently any more, so they pant to shed excess body heat, just like a
dog.)
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The First on its own doesn't seem to be all that powerful. It's power
lies in what it is able to convince others to do on its behalf.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
> although he didn't really say much, I think that the Mutant Enemy
> alien was a fan...
Ah, good, you saw the Santa hat. I was disappointed that we didn't get
Buffy in a Santa hat, but we can't have everything.
> One-sentence summary: Tends towards the melodramatic at times, but
> pretty okay overall.
I did a mid-season review at this point in S3 where I gave this
episode 4 stars. What can I say, I was swept away by the magic snow.
Call me a sap.
Now, however, I can barely stand to watch it. Actually, I can't. I
pretty much just watch the magic snow scene, and that's only for Chris
Beck's music. I've gotten the same way about "The Wish," and about the
next epside, "Gingerbread." Next time through I might skip this disc
altogether (the special features on it are forgettable too). It's odd
-- I think S3 at this point is kind of spinning its wheels a bit. And
yet there's been a lot of really good stuff. I'd say I've watched
these eps too many times, but I've watched S1 and S2 more and almost
never FF through them. There's something in the first half of S3 that
bothers me that I've never been able to put my finger on. It doesn't
seem to work as well in a straight-through marathon as some of the
other seaons do. For me, anyway.
I was very curious to see your reaction to the magic snow. Some people
hate it so much they can barely find the words. I've seen "Amends" on
a lot of worst episode lists. And on a lot of best.
Mrs. Quality is not the only one annoyed by the heavy panting.
Boreanaz never could do that kind of thing very well. He tended to
look like he was constipated.
-- Mike Zeares
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I can't remember how much has been established so far about his
> family
>
> Stephen
Two parents, still together (maybe shouldn't be.) A cousin Rigby from
the side of the family that has money. An Uncle Rory, who's a
taxidermist by day, and a whoring drunk by night.
Don Sample
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> hopelessly devoted wrote:
> > St. Louis, MO. Freaky cold front and lots of snow - Yes. Walk down
> > Main Street going ooooh aaaaaah - No! Running for the nearest
> > thermostat while repeatedly telling yourself, I'm Moving to California
> > would be more like it.
> >
>
> Ah. Gotcha.
You will not that Buffy and Angel were alone on Main Street.
kenm47
Mike Zeares wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
<SNIP>
> There's something in the first half of S3 that
> bothers me that I've never been able to put my finger on. It doesn't
> seem to work as well in a straight-through marathon as some of the
> other seaons do. For me, anyway.
>
Creuncf vg jnf bss orpnhfr bs gur arrq gb perngr gung sbbgvat sbe gur
fcva-bss. Gung'f zl gurbel.
V gubhtug V ernq whfg nf Fcvxr jnf fhccbfrq gb ohl vg va Frnfba 2, fb
jnf Natry nf bevtvanyyl pbaprvirq. Gur Fcva-bss, fhccbfrqyl jnf abg
svanyvmrq va rkcrpgngvba hagvy WJ jnf fb vzcerffrq jvgu QO'f "npgvat"
va VBURSL. Gung zhfg unir erdhverq fbzr erjevgrf bs Frnfba 3.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 10: "Amends"
Comments: this episode is again a shift downwards: it's a real DEM
episode, Buffy is saved by the Powers That Be.
Not that I hate this one. I must admit, I love this one. (Didn't you get
the memo? I swear, it was a memo. You are supposed to either hate this,
or to love this. )
Anyhow, it is linked with The Wish: Buffy talking about the world not
been any better for all her fighting. But we so know it is.
> Most of the story is about Angel's past coming back to haunt him.
> There are some attempts at intense Angel scenes as the voices in his
> head (more on a certain one of those voices in a bit) try to turn him
> against Buffy.
Didn't you like the interleaved dream-sequence?
> The scenes
> involving Giles (including the ones without Angel in them - "you
> may have to kill him. Again.") are the best in the A-story. He's
> got a lot of deep-seated anger, but he limits it to sarcastic quips.
> And yes, they're extremely mean-spirited (but funny) things to say,
> but all things considered, he's quite the adult about dealing with
> Angel, because he knows decency demands it. If I were in his shoes,
> it's possible that I wouldn't have "invited" him in at all, and
> just made him stand on the porch while we talked.
I think he is kind of slow. It wasn't Angel who killed his girlfriend,
but the demon using Angels face. He knows this intellectually. So he
should either be able to cope (more cope with stuff you cannot cope), or
not. If he can cope, he should try to hide this for Angel, if he cannot
cope, well, then he cannot.
> The one false note is Faith's
> exaggerated repetition of her party story;
I think this is good. Not in a good way, but in a "no way they could
make this more painful"-good way.
(Dang. Please no comments on this;-))
> ("I'm glad you came"). The joy of knowing that there are
> people who want you around is pretty universal.
Buff and Faith do need to make amends. I hope Buff was true to Faith
this night, telling her how much she regretted how she not told the only
other Slayer in the world about the only (known) ensouled vampire in the
world. Faith has every right to feel like she should have been the first
to be told.
> Mrs. Quality got really annoyed by Boreanaz's constant loud panting.
> [She just walked by and told me to add this: "I've noticed it
> lately, and I've had enough."]
This get even more annoying when you realize as a vampire, he shouldnæt
have trouble breething at all, cause he doesn't even need to breath.
(Sorry. really, sorry;-))
>
> Is there a better summary of Buffy's attitude towards life than
> "find me something I can pummel?"
>
> After they introduced the dead trees, I spent most of the episode
> trying to figure out how it'd be relevant. Didn't figure it out
> until Buffy did, though. At first I was afraid it'd just be a cursed
> Christmas tree or something.
>
> On a strictly plot level, the idea of something that brought Angel back
> to become its vessel is pretty good. The thing about the First thing,
> though, is that a long-running TV series can only have so many new
> mostest great ultimate evils from beyond the palest pale before things
> get tiresome (unless Buffy's there to mock the excesses: "Alright,
> I get it, you're evil. Do we have to chat about it all day?").
So good. And it makes the enemy gloat over what will happen, hence it
gives the hero a chance to save the day.
> It's only interesting if you put a face on it. So of course that's
> what the show does. And what a face. Now, keep in mind again that I
> grew up watching _Star Trek_. And yet I was still unprepared for the
> ingeniousness that BTVS shows in bringing back dead characters without
> cheapening said deaths. First-as-Calendar could be quite a villain if
> it sticks around. It has all of Jenny's wit ("I wanna die in bed
> surrounded by fat grandchildren, but guess that's off the menu") and
> manipulative ways, mixed with what looks like some of Angelus's knack
> for hurting people. This has real promise.
>
> The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
> for me. That's a shame, since it's kinda the climax of the
> episode, so it leaves a sour taste in one's mouth and colors the
> whole show. I'm not saying that it's a little cheesy. I'm
> saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
> "cheez" you see in snack foods.
Well, it gets to me. There are times for small words, and there are
times for bigger words.
And this is the time for the biggest words. Cause it is all about
looking at what you can do, and not at looking at what you have done,
and you never can fix, anyway. Never give up, never surrender!
Oh, that's Galaxy Quest. But anyway: I so do like the moral here.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "Angel's on top again?"
I kind of think that is sore.
> AOQ rating: Good
You are weird.
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <cj7l12la7eoc97ei9...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <steph...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I can't remember how much has been established so far about his
> > family
> >
> > Stephen
>
> Two parents, still together (maybe shouldn't be.) A cousin Rigby from
> the side of the family that has money. An Uncle Rory, who's a
> taxidermist by day, and a whoring drunk by night.
And the lack of familiarity with a stove's instruction manual.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Stephen Tempest
>St. Louis, MO. Freaky cold front and lots of snow - Yes. Walk down
>Main Street going ooooh aaaaaah - No! Running for the nearest
>thermostat while repeatedly telling yourself, I'm Moving to California
>would be more like it.
Where I live (London) if it starts snowing heavily enough to settle,
everybody rushes to the windows to watch it.
Actually going outside in it voluntarily is a little rarer, but not
unknown. :)
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <FbWdneSCYsX...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>hopelessly devoted wrote:
>
>
>>>St. Louis, MO. Freaky cold front and lots of snow - Yes. Walk down
>>>Main Street going ooooh aaaaaah - No! Running for the nearest
>>>thermostat while repeatedly telling yourself, I'm Moving to California
>>>would be more like it.
>>>
>>
>>Ah. Gotcha.
>
>
> You will not that Buffy and Angel were alone on Main Street.
>
Yup. I'll also note that I used to quite frequently get out and walk
around during pretty heavy snowfalls, and would often go out for a short
time in below-freezing temperatures wearing a T-shirt and no jacket.
rrh...@acme.com
The whole point of Married With Children was that the Bundys were the
anti-Bradys. They weren't willing to take this all the way. They all
would pull together in times of extreme necessity and,as I recall,
there was no consumated sexual infidelities for Al or Peggy. The
producers weren't willing to cross that line. (This is an interesting
commentary on American society. The Bundys' daily abuse of one another
was exaggerated for comic purposes. But sexual infidelity, which
occurs every day in the real world, was a line that couldn't be
crossed.)
The Christmas episode, on the other hand, was fair game. They could
freely take all the cliches of television holidays and turn them back
on themselves. Good stuff.
Richard R. Hershberger
William George Ferguson
>
>Apteryx wrote:
>> "Bill Reid" <horme...@happyhealthy.net> wrote in message
>> news:9OpSf.611$bn3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> >
>> >
>> > Ever see the two-part "Married...With Children" Christmas episode
>> > called "It's A Bundyful Life"? Twisted up the whole Dickens thing with
>> > Sam Kinison as the "guardian angel" after Al electrocutes himself putting
>> > up his crappy lights, and Al realizing that if he had never been born,
>> > his entire family would have been much better off (Kelly was a straight-A
>> > virgin, Peggy was married to rich good-looking man, etc.). Al decides
>> > to go back just to make them miserable the way they made him
>> > miserable...
>>
>> Maybe they had the knack for Xmas specials. I didn't see that one, but the
>> only Married With Children episode I remember fondly is the Xmas one where
>> they have to deal with a dead skydiving santa (never actually shown) after
>> his parachute fails.
>
>The whole point of Married With Children was that the Bundys were the
>anti-Bradys.
This is wandering off-topic, but just a minor correction: The Bundys
weren't the anti-Bradys, they were explicitly the anti-Andersons. Just to
drive that home, on Father Knows Best Jim Anderson (Robert Young) called
his son (Jim Jr. played by Billy Gray) "Bud", and his younger daughter
Kathy (Lauren Chapin) "Kitten" (we don't have a "Princess" [Elinor
Donahue] equivalent).
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Kevin
hopelessly devoted wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
> > magic. I wasn't ensorcelled, but I caught a whiff of it.
>
> crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
> say NO WAY IN HELL!
*My* suspended belief system sent me into convulsions of laughter when
I first saw Amends, because the cornstarch (or whatever they used) on
the street looks nothing like fallen snow! I guess it couldn't be
faked accurately, but snow settles evenly in a flat blanket, and that
street scene looks more like the aftermath of an explosion at a
whipped-cream factory. And the soaring shot begins just as the
swelling music reaches its climactic release... Oh, man. Sadly, this
sours Joss' magic a bit.
On the crazy-weather topic, we had a freak thunderstorm in Santa Cruz,
CA last week, which dumped an inch of hail at sea-level. Maybe Angel &
Buffy getting showered with ice pellets wouldn't have been any better,
though...
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> CA last week, which dumped an inch of hail at sea-level. Maybe Angel &
> Buffy getting showered with ice pellets wouldn't have been any better,
> though...
snow levels have been down to a mere five hundred feet
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
hopelessly devoted
Probably not. But the more important question - Would it have worked
with the same music?
hopelessly devoted
There must have been a strange Power at work in Santa Ana. Although I
did hear about it the next day.
Scott Lurndal
>> On the crazy-weather topic, we had a freak thunderstorm in Santa Cruz,
>> CA last week, which dumped an inch of hail at sea-level. Maybe Angel &
>> Buffy getting showered with ice pellets wouldn't have been any better,
>> though...
>
>snow levels have been down to a mere five hundred feet
>
Last weekend, we had snow on the ground in downtown San Jose. Just
for a bit, at 0200 hours, but still; not since the 70's have we had
snow at basically sea level here.
scott
vmac...@yahoo.com
Or the SantaBot in Futurama - nobody comes up to his standard of nice,
so Christmas is a time of retribution and terror for everyone.
VMacek
Bill Reid
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:gj7m121jbhv5iks52...@4ax.com...
> On 17 Mar 2006 09:34:59 -0800, rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> >Apteryx wrote:
> >> "Bill Reid" <horme...@happyhealthy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:9OpSf.611$bn3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >> >
> >> > Ever see the two-part "Married...With Children" Christmas episode
> >> > called "It's A Bundyful Life"? Twisted up the whole Dickens thing
with
> >> > Sam Kinison as the "guardian angel" after Al electrocutes himself
putting
> >> > up his crappy lights, and Al realizing that if he had never been
born,
> >> > his entire family would have been much better off (Kelly was a
straight-A
> >> > virgin, Peggy was married to rich good-looking man, etc.). Al
decides
> >> > to go back just to make them miserable the way they made him
> >> > miserable...
> >>
> >> Maybe they had the knack for Xmas specials. I didn't see that one, but
the
> >> only Married With Children episode I remember fondly is the Xmas one
where
> >> they have to deal with a dead skydiving santa (never actually shown)
after
> >> his parachute fails.
> >
stretcher covered in a sheet?
Too bad you missed "It's A Bundyful Life"...the "Skydiving Santa" episode
was pretty funny, but "Bundyful" was about billion times better...
> >The whole point of Married With Children was that the Bundys were the
> >anti-Bradys.
>
> This is wandering off-topic, but just a minor correction: The Bundys
> weren't the anti-Bradys, they were explicitly the anti-Andersons.
Yeah, because Al Bundy wasn't secretly gay like Mr. Brady...
> Just to
> drive that home, on Father Knows Best Jim Anderson (Robert Young) called
> his son (Jim Jr. played by Billy Gray) "Bud", and his younger daughter
> Kathy (Lauren Chapin) "Kitten"
Al called Kelly "Pumpkin", so BZZZZZZZT!!!
(we don't have a "Princess" [Elinor
> Donahue] equivalent).
>
We did have a "Chuck Cunningham" equivalent when they brought
in "Seven" to freshen up the aging cast with a moppet, then just forgot
about him after a few episodes cuz the kid was so creepy...
---
William Ernest Reid
Bill Reid
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-E8BDFC...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <121kfci...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> > I sometimes describe this episode as BTVS finds God. The ending was
> > literally a miracle. Makes the episode kind of unique.
> >
> But was the miracle from anything a Christian (or Jew or Muslim) would
> recognize as their God?
>
Of course not, that would make rabid irrational atheists like you
COMPLETELY FREAK OUT, so out of respect for YOUR "religious"
beliefs they made their "Christmas" episode non-sectarian...
If it will make you feel better, it was a "pagan god" that caused the
miraculous snow...and for the Jews, it was "Hannukah Harry"...
---
William Ernest Reid
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-E8BDFC...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <121kfci...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>
>> I sometimes describe this episode as BTVS finds God. The ending was
>> literally a miracle. Makes the episode kind of unique.
>>
>
> But was the miracle from anything a Christian (or Jew or Muslim) would
> recognize as their God?
I didn't mention a religion did I? ;-)
It's an interesting question. On the one hand it's a kind of deus ex
machina. But very literal - harking back to Greek theater and a final scene
intervention by the gods. (I gather that Joss's classical education made
him well versed in such things and that he has retained an interest. After
all, we've already seen Oedipus performed in BTVS.) Classically, such
scenes aren't merely devices to unravel an impossible situation (thought
they might serve that function too), but also speak to a greater universal
truth of the fundamental banality of man's existence, and how people's true
fate is determined by powers greater than them.
I think it's pretty clear that the snow isn't just a device to solve the
problem. It's the conclusion the show was aiming for all along. Since it
corresponds so well to that ancient theatrical tradition, the form would not
imply a judeo-christian god.
However, other elements really do point that direction. Doing it on
Christmas for one thing. The use of a great miracle from an unseen God (as
opposed to the more tangible walking talking gods of Greece and Rome) I
think suggests the same. I also note Angel's question about being a
"righteous man". But especially, the use of the First as nemesis points
that way. Not your ordinary demon. The very source of evil. Very satanic
sounding. The benevolent intervention by god in opposition to the first
evil has a judeo-christian feel to me. I imagine that's deliberate, but
still vague enough to be taken other ways.
There's also the question of metaphor - something that's been known to be
used once or twice in this series. I'm not sure I really have a handle on
it here, but I observe that the great Buffy/Angel drama isn't the only thing
going on in this episode. Amends are being made on a number of fronts.
Willow/Oz. Angel/Giles. Faith/Buffy. Xander/Buffy. Maybe even a general
touch of Willow/Xander/Buffy/Giles just in having them back working the
books into the wee hours - all for the sake of Angel. Is there a kind of
miracle at work in all of that?
Or perhaps the greatest miracle can be found in Angel's very existence. The
ensouled vampire. Who here survives the greatest attack upon his human
soul. (Previously, it was merely the soul's removal. Now the attack seeks
to corrupt the soul.) And leaves armed with new philosophies and purpose
arising out of the long exchange with Buffy. (This, incidentally, might
explain why the First would be satisfied with his death. He preferred
corruption, but destroying the miracle would be sufficient.) The First,
after all, only showed him what he already knew. And Angel said it wasn't
the demon that needed killing. It was the man. Was the miracle that man
realizing how to make amends, to become the righteous man he wanted to be?
One more thing. The First claims to have brought Angel back - a point of
some dispute in discussion. Well, the problem with his claim is that it
doesn't fit easily with what we all saw - Buffy laying the ring down where
he departed. The ring that by all appearances served as the catalyst to his
return. So how might that fit with Buffy's remark on the hill, "If I can't
convince you that you belong in this world, then I don't know what can."
Right then, the snow began to fall.
The last three paragraphs suggest no religion at all, or even a hidden hand.
The miracle(s) came from within.
So, in usual BTVS fashion it's ambiguous. I don't believe the allusions to
god are any accident - including the more judeo-christian ones. That's a
possible explanation. But there are others as well.
OBS
BTR1701
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Having grown up in the snow, my suspended belief system tends to come
> crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
> say NO WAY IN HELL! Snow in California - Sure. 6 inches in 5-10-15-20
> min and let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO WAY IN HELL! It was a
> very nice moment on the surface, everyone coming out to see, Xander
> pulling the sleeping bag over his head, but NO WAY IN HE HE HE HELLLLL!
It is a show about magic and the supernatural, after all. I'm always
amazed how people will accept the premise of vampires, teenage girls
with superpowers, witches and all the rest but a couple of inches of
snow in California... well, that's just too bizarre to accept.
Daniel Damouth
group in these threads. So many speculations and expectations are
expressed by AOQ that practically beg for a spoiler, and yet very
rarely does anyone here succumb to the temptation. Onward...
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:1142561877.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[...]
> The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
> for me. That's a shame, since it's kinda the climax of the
> episode, so it leaves a sour taste in one's mouth and colors the
> whole show. I'm not saying that it's a little cheesy. I'm
> saying that parts of it positively flow with that neon-orange
> "cheez" you see in snack foods. The buildup is there, and the
> general talking points are right (Angel's 'weakness' as set up
> earlier, all the failed attempts to let go, etc.), but the
> dialogue just gets so clunky and unwieldy... "Angel, you have the
> power to do real good!" "You can never understand what I've done!"
You didn't like Buffy's response to that? "I know everything that you
did, because you did it to me."
Other things I love about the episode:
Willy giving Xander a Christmas present by pretending to be intimidated
by his act in the bar.
"Find me something I can pummul." (which you mentioned).
Buffy: "A child shall be born of man and goat, and have two heads, and
the first shall speak only in riddles. No wonder you like reading this
stuff. It's like reading the sun."
Buffy: "I don't have time to explain this. You just have to trust me.
That thing that was haunting you... ANGEL: It wasn't haunting me. It
was showing me. BUFFY: Showing you? ANGEL: What I am. BUFFY: Were.
ANGEL: And ever shall be."
-Dan Damouth
Don Sample
Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Buffy: "A child shall be born of man and goat, and have two heads, and
> the first shall speak only in riddles. No wonder you like reading this
> stuff. It's like reading the sun."
And what Giles found immediately after that: "More posturing, I'm
afraid. 'For they are the Harbingers of death. Nothing shall grow above
or below them. No seed shall flower, neither in man nor...' They're
rebels and they'll never ever be any good."
(Ant that of course holds the vital clue.)
hopelessly devoted
Maybe I didn't work this correctly.
Snow in California - Sure. It can actually snow anywhere it wants.
6 inches in 5-10-15-20 min AND let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO
WAY IN HELL!
It's an Extreme Cold Front. You can put the accent over Extreme or
over Cold.
It can and will sometimes snow on the HELLmouth (or anyplace on the
planet for that matter). The bare hands and slow walk down lover's
lane is a bit much to accept. Superpowers, Vampire aside. It's still
colder than a witches tit in a brass bra.
But don't worry, I have the same issue when I see snow fall on a
broadcast face and the snow
simply
stays
put.
MELT DAMMIT!!!!!!
I have a video with preview for the Alfred Hitchcock collection with
two men in the thickest brown makeup you've every seen in your life
simply to look (pc) Middle Eastern. Somehow I get the exact same
feeling.
> *My* suspended belief system sent me into convulsions of laughter when
> I first saw Amends, because the cornstarch (or whatever they used) on
> the street looks nothing like fallen snow! I guess it couldn't be
> faked accurately, but snow settles evenly in a flat blanket, and that
> street scene looks more like the aftermath of an explosion at a
> whipped-cream factory.
I've actually trained myself not to look for the exact same reason.
There's the Fantasy World and then there's Hollywood interpretation of
snow (and the people who happen to be in it). And like the funny men
in the brown makeup -- NO WAY IN HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HELL!!!!!!
hopelessly devoted
I managed to go home for Christmas a couple years back and kept praying
for snow. Christmas Eve, out doing last minute shopping, we got what I
asked for, 8 inches in about an hour plus. Everyone was really upset
with me when I returned to California a couple of days later. I can't
image why.
Michael Ikeda
news:121mm5a...@news.supernews.com:
(snipped)
>
> So, in usual BTVS fashion it's ambiguous. I don't believe the
> allusions to god are any accident - including the more
> judeo-christian ones. That's a possible explanation. But there
> are others as well.
One possiblity that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the snowfall
might have been simply the result of an overcorrection to earlier
tampering. Sunnydale was in a heat wave before the snowfall. And if
the First had anything to do with the heat wave, when the First stops
affecting the weather perhaps things snap back colder than they
otherwise would.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Espen Schjønberg
> hopelessly devoted wrote:
>
>>crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
>>say NO WAY IN HELL!
>
>
>
> *My* suspended belief system sent me into convulsions of laughter when
> I first saw Amends, because the cornstarch (or whatever they used) on
> the street looks nothing like fallen snow!
My suspended belief system had no problem with this snow, even if it
looks like it has been trampled down by a horde of people when it is
supposed to be totally new.
I guess it just depends on how much slack you are willing to give them.
And yes, there are snow here in Norway.
--
Espen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:121mm5a...@news.supernews.com:
>
> (snipped)
>
> >
> > So, in usual BTVS fashion it's ambiguous. I don't believe the
> > allusions to god are any accident - including the more
> > judeo-christian ones. That's a possible explanation. But there
> > are others as well.
>
> One possiblity that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the snowfall
> might have been simply the result of an overcorrection to earlier
> tampering. Sunnydale was in a heat wave before the snowfall. And if
> the First had anything to do with the heat wave, when the First stops
> affecting the weather perhaps things snap back colder than they
> otherwise would.
theres nothing abnormal about such temperatures in december in california
Eric Hunter
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-E8BDFC...@news.giganews.com...
>> In article <121kfci...@news.supernews.com>,
>> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>
>>> I sometimes describe this episode as BTVS finds God.
>>> The ending was literally a miracle.
>>
>> Jew or Muslim) would recognize as their God?
>
> I didn't mention a religion did I? ;-)
>
> But very literal
Very much so, and nicely done, too.
> it's pretty clear that the snow isn't just a device to
> solve the problem.
Clearly not, no.
> However, other elements really do point that direction.
> Doing it on Christmas for one thing. The use of a great
> miracle from an unseen God suggests the same. I also
> note Angel's question about being a "righteous man".
> But especially, the use of the First as nemesis points
> that way. Not your ordinary demon. The very source
> of evil. Very satanic sounding. The benevolent
> intervention by god in opposition to the first evil has a
> judeo-christian feel to me. I imagine that's deliberate,
> but still vague enough to be taken other ways.
We know that demons exist in the Buffyverse. We
know that "Hell Dimensions" exist in the Buffyverse.
We now know that the "First Evil" exists. We also
know that crosses and holy water burn vampires, and
that snow miraculously fell in Sunnydale to keep
Angel from bursting into flame. The obvious
implication is that supernatural forces for Good
exist in the Buffyverse as well. Did the First Evil
have any reason to bring Angel back? Not that I
can see, no. Especially given the attempt to turn
Angel to the dark side or to get him to kill himself.
To me, this suggests that Angel's return was the
first "miracle" we see, and the snowfall was the
second. Is the source of these miracles Yahweh/
Jehovah/Allah, or is he just one aspect of the
"Greater Good"? I don't think it matters, really.
Eric.
--
drifter
Sure, it matters. There's just no way to prove it one
way or another. It's equally possible that he was freed
by one aspect of the "Greater Bad." As long as Angel's
around and subject to the Big Damned Curse, there's a
possibility that Angelus will re-surface and spread chaos.
There must be any number of Really, Really Evil Entities
that would like to see that.
Naq, uryy, lbh qba'g rira arrq gb tvir Natry n unccl gb qb
vg. Va bar rcvfbqr bs Natry, fbzr fghcvq tvey yrg Natryhf
bhg ol fvzcyl tvivat Natry n genadhvyvmre.
V jnf arire unccl jvgu gung rcvfbqr, orpnhfr vg frrzf gb zr
gung Natry unf orra uvg jvgu genad qnegf orsber, unfa'g ur?
Gung fubhyq unir gur fnzr rssrpg Ohg fvapr V'z abg gur bar
jub jebgr gur fubj, V pbhyq or jebat.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Rowan Hawthorn
> BTR1701 wrote:
>
>>In article <1142597639.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> "hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Having grown up in the snow, my suspended belief system tends to come
>>>crashing back to earth Hollywood tries to do snow. I'll just simply
>>>say NO WAY IN HELL! Snow in California - Sure. 6 inches in 5-10-15-20
>>>min and let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO WAY IN HELL! It was a
>>>very nice moment on the surface, everyone coming out to see, Xander
>>>pulling the sleeping bag over his head, but NO WAY IN HE HE HE HELLLLL!
>>
>>
>>It is a show about magic and the supernatural, after all. I'm always
>>amazed how people will accept the premise of vampires, teenage girls
>>with superpowers, witches and all the rest but a couple of inches of
>>snow in California... well, that's just too bizarre to accept.
>
>
> Maybe I didn't work this correctly.
> Snow in California - Sure. It can actually snow anywhere it wants.
> 6 inches in 5-10-15-20 min AND let's go for a stroll down Main St. - NO
> WAY IN HELL!
> It's an Extreme Cold Front. You can put the accent over Extreme or
> over Cold.
> It can and will sometimes snow on the HELLmouth (or anyplace on the
> planet for that matter). The bare hands and slow walk down lover's
> lane is a bit much to accept. Superpowers, Vampire aside. It's still
> colder than a witches tit in a brass bra.
>
Actually, that's not necessarily true. It doesn't need to be
particularly cold *on the ground* to snow, even to snow a *lot*, since
the quantity of snow isn't directly related to how cold it is. All that
really means is that there's a lot of moisture in the air coming down
through a cold layer. In fact, during the big snow I mentioned earlier,
temperatures weren't really any lower than normal for that time of year
around here, and some of the coldest weather I've ever seen was dry as a
bone without *any* precipitation.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> particularly cold *on the ground* to snow, even to snow a *lot*, since
> the quantity of snow isn't directly related to how cold it is. All that
> really means is that there's a lot of moisture in the air coming down
> through a cold layer. In fact, during the big snow I mentioned earlier,
> temperatures weren't really any lower than normal for that time of year
> around here, and some of the coldest weather I've ever seen was dry as a
> bone without *any* precipitation.
at sea level in california it is sometimes below freezing
and it is sometimes percipitating
it just hte twain together that is rare
freezing temperatures are usually on cloudless nights
so no greenhouse effect
and when clouds move in they keep the ground below warmer
Scythe Matters
> Once Buffy becomes the
> center of the dreams. the extended dose of sex and violence works
> pretty well, and I do like how he seems to have lost control, and then
> just being near Buffy helps him sort of regain it.
Sort of. Sort of not.
> he scenes
> involving Giles (including the ones without Angel in them - "you
> may have to kill him. Again.") are the best in the A-story.
Agreed.
> Well, okay, I can't resist the urge to talk. So let me also mention
> that I envy Oz's ability to see straight to the core of a situation
> and respond in an unconventionally appropriate way. It played a big
> part in why Willow (and We The Audience) got to like him so much in the
> first place, and it continues to lead to some really sweet scenes.
And yet, Willow wants things to be "right" between her and Oz, and what
does she do? Again? That's right: the big, dramatic gesture, hoping to
fix everything in one go. Gosh, you'd almost think this was part of her
character...
> His crush on
> Buffy from S1/2 has become pretty irrelevant this year, but as we've
> been seeing for quite some time, there's a real bond between these
> two mostest best of friends that can transcend that.
With Angel and Cordelia (temporarily?) out of the picture, the change in
his demeanor made me wonder if they were now going to pull the trigger
on a Buffy/Xander relationship. It's not the first time they've hinted
at it, after all.
> Finally, the most conventional of our holiday-cheer subplots concerns
> Faith (the third episode after "Revelations," as predicted. Damn,
> I'm good. Although I'd expected her to appear between then and
> now) who doesn't have anyone to drink eggnog with. These scenes are
> as straightforward as it gets and rest entirely on the script and the
> actors to sell them without overplaying things.
The amount of effort it must have taken Faith to say this:
----
Faith: Uh, looked like that whole party thing was gonna be kind of a
drag. (drops her eyes for an instant) I didn't really have anything...
You know.
----
...is extraordinary, and Dushku really plays these scenes perfectly.
Also, kudos to Joyce for being (rarely-seen) insightful Mom throughout.
Even Buffy's learning her lessons ("I'll explain later. Everything. I
promise.") A terrific sequence, which -- as you say -- isn't anything
unexpected, plot-wise, but really works because of the dialogue and the
acting.
> On a strictly plot level, the idea of something that brought Angel back
> to become its vessel is pretty good.
Not quite the storyline, but others have covered that. It leads one to
wonder, however: why would the First Evil be especially interested in
having Buffy dead? Or Angel dead as a backup plan? Theoretically, the
First could work its mojo on anyone that it felt would accomplish a
Buffy-killing goal. So why Angel and the extraordinary lengths to bring
him back? It's worth thinking about. I know I did, at the time.
It also gives us the rebound from the previous episode's breakup, which
we'd have to expect by now. But this time, it turns up the pressure on
Buffy:
----
Giles: Look... (puts on his glasses) You realize if he... truly becomes
a danger, you may have to kill him. Again. Can you do that?
Buffy can't bring herself to answer.
----
There's also the really interesting thing that the First says to Angel,
in regards to this increasingly angsty relationship:
----
Angel: I'll never hurt her.
Jenny: You were born to hurt her. (scornfully) Have you learned
nothing? As long as you are alive...
----
This is a point when something about Joss' baddies started to occur to
me: the insignificant ones lie, but the significant ones tell the truth
a rather disconcerting amount of the time. So is the First telling the
truth here? There's no way to know, of course, but there's plenty
evidence on the screen so far this season, and it *does* exactly track
with what Spike said of them just a few episodes ago:
----
Spike: (faces them) You're *not* friends. You'll never be friends.
You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag,
and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be
friends.
----
I've always felt that when the writers repeat a point in this fashion,
they mean for us to pay attention.
> The thing about the First thing,
> though, is that a long-running TV series can only have so many new
> mostest great ultimate evils from beyond the palest pale before things
> get tiresome (unless Buffy's there to mock the excesses: "Alright,
> I get it, you're evil. Do we have to chat about it all day?").
That's one way. There's another path around the problems of endless
escalation. One that's pretty classic BTVS. You'll see, at some point in
the future.
> The Angel/Buffy conversation towards daybreak doesn't work so well
> for me. That's a shame, since it's kinda the climax of the
> episode, so it leaves a sour taste in one's mouth and colors the
> whole show.
I didn't find it as cheesy as you did, but it also didn't work for me
the way it was obviously intended to do. One part of the scene hits its
target (for me) thanks to Gellar and Boreanaz turning up the acting a notch:
----
Angel: I said LEAVE!
He jerks his arm free of her grasp. In her anger and desperation Buffy
punches him. He reacts by shoving her away from him roughly, making her
fall face forward, hard to the ground.
Angel: (quietly to himself) Oh, my God...
He goes to her and crouches over her, grabbing her by the shoulders and
turning her around to face him. Buffy fears his intentions and cries
out.
Buffy: No! No!
He grabs her roughly by the arms and holds her firmly.
Angel: Am I a thing worth saving, huh? (shakes her) Am I a righteous
man? (shakes her) The world wants me gone!
Buffy: (tearfully) What about me? I love you so much... And I tried to
make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help.
She shoves him off of her and gets up.
Buffy: (crying) And I hate it! I hate that it's *so* hard... and that
you can hurt me *so* much. (sobs, then harshly) I know everything that
you did, because you did it to me. Oh, God! I wish that I wished you
dead. I don't. (whispers) I can't.
----
But the rest...I'm not feeling it. At least not in the way I'm supposed to.
> Well, the snowfall at the end, blocking out the sunlight, pretty much
> sums up the episode. Basically, Joss is trying to work a little bit of
> magic.'
That never really worked for me either, though the music was terrific.
But despite Beck's excellent work, the moment didn't transcend.
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd probably go with "decent." So many excellent elements, but in the
end it doesn't go where it needs to go, and this episode really *does*
need to get to that place.
As for the usual postlogue, here's the only thing I'm going to add:
1) We were talking just a few episodes ago about what the "core" of the
show might be. If you think about it, this episode actually delivers a
fairly good candidate for a core value:
----
Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every
day. It's what we have to do.
----
In some very real ways, this encapsulates a lot of what the show has put
Buffy through so far. She fights it, she tries to run away from it, she
complains about it, and she obviously resents it. It has been the source
of almost unbelievable pain, sometimes more than anyone should have to
bear. But in the end, she fights, no matter the consequences.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And yet, Willow wants things to be "right" between her and Oz, and what
> does she do? Again? That's right: the big, dramatic gesture, hoping to
> fix everything in one go. Gosh, you'd almost think this was part of her
> character...
What, you mean like with consistent behavior and everything?
I know that Willow acts out-of-character all the time; I read it on the
NG.
> 1) We were talking just a few episodes ago about what the "core" of the
> show might be. If you think about it, this episode actually delivers a
> fairly good candidate for a core value:
> Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every
> day. It's what we have to do.
Hmm. I think it might be a Joss core value in general. After
_Serenity_ some people were impressed by how much he makes the Good
Guys suffer. Of course, many would argue that's how Big Damned Heroes
are made.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
> Scythe Matters wrote:
>
>
>>And yet, Willow wants things to be "right" between her and Oz, and what
>>does she do? Again? That's right: the big, dramatic gesture, hoping to
>>fix everything in one go. Gosh, you'd almost think this was part of her
>>character...
>
>
> What, you mean like with consistent behavior and everything?
>
> I know that Willow acts out-of-character all the time; I read it on the
> NG.
>
Would it be a spoiler if I said that it should be obvious by now that
it's really *not* out-of-character? Oh. Oops...
> Hmm. I think it might be a Joss core value in general. After
> _Serenity_ some people were impressed by how much he makes the Good
> Guys suffer. Of course, many would argue that's how Big Damned Heroes
> are made.
Including at least one real-life Big Damn Hero, who remarked once
something to the effect that a hero is "Some damn fool who was in the
wrong place at the wrong time." Or something like that... (And no, I
can't remember who said it, either, and can't find the attribution...)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > I know that Willow acts out-of-character all the time; I read it on the
> > NG.
> >
>
> Would it be a spoiler if I said that it should be obvious by now that
> it's really *not* out-of-character? Oh. Oops...
That was supposed to be flippant and sarcastic; I don't know if it
registered. Cuz some people complained about her behavior in "Amends"
and others and (DMP especially) and busted out the "out of
character"/"*so* not Willow" argument, which I don't buy at all here.
Hence the joke. I hear if you have to explain a joke, it's not very
good.
-AOQ
~And if you're being sarcastic too, I didn't get it.~
drifter
Perhaps it's in Willow's character to act out-of-character?
There, that should cover everything.
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
>
>>>I know that Willow acts out-of-character all the time; I read it on the
>>>NG.
>>>
>>
>>Would it be a spoiler if I said that it should be obvious by now that
>>it's really *not* out-of-character? Oh. Oops...
>
>
> That was supposed to be flippant and sarcastic; I don't know if it
> registered.
I thought it might be.
> Cuz some people complained about her behavior in "Amends"
> and others and (DMP especially) and busted out the "out of
> character"/"*so* not Willow" argument, which I don't buy at all here.
> Hence the joke. I hear if you have to explain a joke, it's not very
> good.
Nah. I've been reading those arguments regularly for about four years now...
>
> -AOQ
> ~And if you're being sarcastic too, I didn't get it.~
>
Only the same way you were. Willow is in deep denial about her own
character flaws, and apparently denial is contagious... and, as I don my
flame-retardant suit, allow me to state that I love Willow. Far and
away my favorite character of the entire series, one of my favorite
fictional characters ever. But I still see her flaws. That's part of
what *makes* her interesting.
Rowan Hawthorn
Actually, that's about the size of it...
William George Ferguson
>> -AOQ
>> ~And if you're being sarcastic too, I didn't get it.~
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Only the same way you were. Willow is in deep denial about her own
>character flaws, and apparently denial is contagious... and, as I don my
>flame-retardant suit, allow me to state that I love Willow. Far and
>away my favorite character of the entire series, one of my favorite
>fictional characters ever. But I still see her flaws. That's part of
>what *makes* her interesting.
Exactly. I've said from the beginning that I liked Willow because of her
flaws, not in spite of them.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
david serafini
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in news:dsample-1A79A3.00150117032006
> @news.giganews.com:
>
>
>>(Oh yeah, just cause the First takes the credit for bringing Angel back,
>>doesn't mean it did it. It's evil. It may lie sometimes.)
>
> It may also tell the truth, if that suits its purpose. And Giles certainly indicates
> that the First's acolytes *could've* brought Angel back from hell.
>
> That's one of the most interesting parts of the episode, the idea that we just don't
> know whether Angel was brought back for good or ill. Seems a shame to just dismiss
> the question out of hand.
It strikes me as odd that there's widespread acceptance that the First
may be lying about bringing Angel back, but I've never seen anyone
question that he/she/it is really the _first_ evil. In an early episode
Giles talks about the "old ones" who were driven out of the dimension,
assumedly, never to return. But we've seen inter-dimensional portals
before (Acathla's vortex, the hellmouth itself) and will see them again.
It makes me wonder if the First is just some powerful demon, maybe an
Old One, in another
dimension trying to manipulate its way into this dimension.
Npghnyyl, jung V ernyyl guvax vf gung gur Svefg vf n pbagrzcbenel bs
Vyylevn,
naq vf culfvpnyyl fghpx va n pbssva va gur Qrrcre Jryy, ohg unf svtherq bhg
n jnl gb nfgeny cebwrpg uvzfrys vagb gur erny jbeyq. Bs pbhefr, uvf
hygvzngr
cyna jbhqy or gb serr uvf culfvpny frys. Creuncf uvf anzr vf Ghebx, naq ur
perngrq gur Ghebx Una onpx jura ur unq culfvpny sbez, orsber orvat
sbeprq vagb
gur Jryy.
david serafini
> Plus, I think this is the second time we've seen direct evidence of a
> Higher Power apparently working for Good in the world - the first
> being Whistler's role in Becoming. And both examples were for
> Angel's benefit. And the name 'Angel' means 'Messenger of a Higher
> Power'. Coincidence? Blatant misdirection? Set-up for his own
> spin-off series? Stay tuned...
I don't recall, but didn't Whistler actually say at one point that he
was sent by the "Powers That Be"? It seems to me that Occam's razor
suggests the snowfall came from the PTB. The only argument against that
I can think of is that the PTB are notoriously reticent to actually do
stuff, thus their tendency to work through intermediaries. But Buffy,
unintentionally acting in their interest, has failed, and Angel
is about to cease to exist, so desparate times, desperates measures.
Don Sample
david serafini <dbser...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There was no mention of "The Powers That Be" in any of the scenes with
Whistler in 'Becoming.'
KenM47
There was:
"Buffy: You don’t have anything useful to tell me,
do you? What are you, just some immortal demon sent
down to even the score between good and evil?
Whistler: Wow. Good guess."
Ken (Brooklyn)
William George Ferguson
>Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
>>There was no mention of "The Powers That Be" in any of the scenes with
>>Whistler in 'Becoming.'
>
>
>There was:
>
>"Buffy: You don’t have anything useful to tell me,
>do you? What are you, just some immortal demon sent
>down to even the score between good and evil?
>
>Whistler: Wow. Good guess."
That's not a reference to the PTB, that's a reference to the PTSY
(®-F.Burkle).
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:22:31 GMT, KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> >>There was no mention of "The Powers That Be" in any of the scenes with
> >>Whistler in 'Becoming.'
> >
> >
> >There was:
> >
> >"Buffy: You don’t have anything useful to tell me,
> >do you? What are you, just some immortal demon sent
> >down to even the score between good and evil?
> >
> >Whistler: Wow. Good guess."
>
> That's not a reference to the PTB, that's a reference to the PTSY
> (®-F.Burkle).
And he never said it was a correct guess, just a good one.