A Second Look: BTVS S3D4
Arbitrar Of Quality
of that.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner
And now we move into probably my favorite stretch of the season. Re-
watching, this falling out, even temporary, and re-defining of the
relationship between Buffy and Giles feels inevitable, like that's the
only way things could have ever gone. Not only do I totally buy Giles
as a betrayer in this situation, but I sympathize with him perhaps
more than I should. Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it. Throw
in some nice monster-movie setpieces and a great monster to go with
them, and you have a feast. While I'm a bit worried about the damage
done to the mythology by making the Watchers so one-note, it works
beautifully for the purposes of this story.
Rating: Excellent
Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
Writer: Dan Vebber
Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
This is one that I was hoping to be able to upgrade to Good, knowing
the conceit coming in. But as Mrs. Quality commented while watching,
"this is such a BAD episode!" I wouldn't go that far, but Xander
jumping around for the football is one of those moments that makes me
want to jam screws into my eyes and ears, and the rest of the early
going isn't a whole lot less painful. His headspace is not a good
place for a viewer to be. The much vaunted gentle mockery of the
series' conventions also falls flat until the very end, if only
because the cheap unknown spirit doesn't seem as cheap on a low-budget
show, and the Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends." The last third
of the episode (Faith's interlude is the approximate dividing point,
although a few last bits of lame stuff are afterward) remains its
redeeming feature, as it finally hits its stride along with Xander as
he works in silence (and silly music), connecting on the comedy,
character, and meta fronts. It always leads me feeling more
appreciative of the episode as a whole, even if it's not a favorite by
any stretch of the imagination.
Rating: Decent
Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
Writer: Doug Petrie
Director: Michael Lange
This is good stuff. It has an odd vibe that threw me a bit as a first-
time viewer, since it looks and quacks like a self-contained story,
but is gradually revealed to be very much a Part I by the end. Its
primary focus is to get the show where it needs to go with Faith and
Wilkins coming into their own as villains, and Balthazar & co. prove
to be a fun (ACCEPTABLE!) diversion during the ride. (The fiancée was
disappointed that there wasn't much detail given in the special
features about how they made that costume.) Also, although Angel
still needs Buffy to save him as usual at the end, he and Giles both
get a chance to play at being cool action heroes. If anyone tells you
they immediately recognized Wesley's potential to end up going where
the Buffyverse would take him, they're lying.
Rating: Good
Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: Michael Gershman
This is probably my favorite of Season Three, and probably in my top
five or ten for the series. Even on a show like BTVS, it's rare to
see a single hour of television that hits note after note this
brilliantly, with every scene taking one in directions that are
unexpected but make perfect sense in retrospect. The action never
lets up, and the intensity is as high as it ever gets during the
library double-crosses, Xander's evening with Faith, and her turn to
the dark side. If I can love one thing even more intensely than
anything else, it's the first significant (well, with dialogue,
anyway) interaction between Faith and Angel. Separately they're just
my two favorite Buffyverse characters, but together their scenes
virtually never fail to be anything short of amazing. Spending this
quality time with Faith arguably does more to define Angel as a
character (and one worthy of a spin-off) than anything else we've seen
this year, and lets us see with the benefit of hindsight why exactly
he's going to be the one to save her from herself.
Rating: Excellent
Additional comments on S3D4: Mrs. Q. and I watched Michael Gershman's
commentary for "Consequences" with the help of some beer and drinking
it whenever he mentioned something about the filming being "very
difficult." Very mild hilarity ensued.
Speaking of "Consequences," I'm not sure if Oz appears in this
episode. I feel like someone else pointed out that he doesn't. The
fact that this character's presence or absence does not register with
me in any way makes me understand for the first time what Green is
talking about in the S4 featurette when he says that Oz never really
fit in as a main cast member, and how he wishes he could've stayed a
semi-regular. These recap threads bear that out - how many times has
Oz even been mentioned by us discuss-ers this year outside of maybe
"Amends?" (Even in B&TB, the NG threads don't focus on him, and no
one seems to care enough to say much about his place in the Willow/
Xander fluke arc.) He may get mentioned again for a few particularly
good lines in "Earshot" and for panicking in GD1, and that'll be about
it. The other characters are all put front and center in S3, getting
their own important episodes and identity crises, while Oz remains
aggressively passive, a background character through and through,
apparently there only to elicit a wry smile or two from the viewer
each week.
Maybe well-adjusted characters just don't mesh with Whedonverse
shows? The thing is, though, this isn't one of those situations where
I'm actively disinterested in a main character, as with the Rileys and
Lornes of the world. I like Oz. He's hard to not like. I never mind
him being around. Yet I notice that much of my appreciation is tied
to his relationship with Willow. In S2, when things are new and
exciting for her, the show reflects it. And once the writers realized
the effect that being with him would have on Willow's sense of self (I
don't see that idea expressed particularly clearly in S3, whereas it's
all over S4 from the beginning), things click again. Thus, Oz has
far, far more memorable moments in his ten episodes of S2 or his nine
episodes of S4 than he does in twenty-two episodes of S3. I feel sad
upon re-reaching the part of the series where we realize that he's not
going to so much as put in an appearance again. But again, unless
you're one of the rabid fan-girls who were posting heavily on
jumptheshark.net in 1999 (the archives are a great read if you're
interested in taking a hatchet to your brain cells), if there was ever
a character the show could survive losing without missing a beat, it
was Oz.
(I really use parentheses a lot.)
Thoughts?
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
> Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
> Writer: Dan Vebber
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> This is one that I was hoping to be able to upgrade to Good, knowing
> the conceit coming in. But as Mrs. Quality commented while watching,
> "this is such a BAD episode!" I wouldn't go that far, but Xander
> jumping around for the football is one of those moments that makes me
> want to jam screws into my eyes and ears, and the rest of the early
> going isn't a whole lot less painful. His headspace is not a good
> place for a viewer to be. The much vaunted gentle mockery of the
> series' conventions also falls flat until the very end, if only
> because the cheap unknown spirit doesn't seem as cheap on a low-budget
> show, and the Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
> ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends." The last third
> of the episode (Faith's interlude is the approximate dividing point,
> although a few last bits of lame stuff are afterward) remains its
> redeeming feature, as it finally hits its stride along with Xander as
> he works in silence (and silly music), connecting on the comedy,
> character, and meta fronts. It always leads me feeling more
> appreciative of the episode as a whole, even if it's not a favorite by
> any stretch of the imagination.
> Rating: Decent
The problem here is that the central conflict of this episode is
totally manufactured. Xander's friends never tried to keep him out of
fights before this episode, and they never tried to do it again
afterward. So rather than flowing naturally from consistent
characterization, this episode has everyone acting out of character
just to achieve the goal of splitting Xander off from his friends for
the 44 minutes they needed to tell this particular story. It's pretty
jarring.
On its own, though, the episode does have some good moments. My
favorite is that when Xander interrupts the big melodramatic Buffy/
Angel scene, he also interrupts *their music.* Now that's quality
humor.
> Speaking of "Consequences," I'm not sure if Oz appears in this
> episode. I feel like someone else pointed out that he doesn't. The
> fact that this character's presence or absence does not register with
> me in any way makes me understand for the first time what Green is
> talking about in the S4 featurette when he says that Oz never really
> fit in as a main cast member, and how he wishes he could've stayed a
> semi-regular. These recap threads bear that out - how many times has
> Oz even been mentioned by us discuss-ers this year outside of maybe
> "Amends?" (Even in B&TB, the NG threads don't focus on him, and no
> one seems to care enough to say much about his place in the Willow/
> Xander fluke arc.) He may get mentioned again for a few particularly
> good lines in "Earshot" and for panicking in GD1, and that'll be about
> it. The other characters are all put front and center in S3, getting
> their own important episodes and identity crises, while Oz remains
> aggressively passive, a background character through and through,
> apparently there only to elicit a wry smile or two from the viewer
> each week.
The problem with Oz is that he never really developed an identity of
his own outside of being Willow's boyfriend, and he was pretty much
written as the perfect boyfriend for her from the get-go. And that's
really not a lot to hang a character on (though Seth Green was one of
my favorite actors on the show). He wasn't so much a character as an
accessory to a character.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The problem here is that the central conflict of this episode is
> totally manufactured. Xander's friends never tried to keep him out of
> fights before this episode, and they never tried to do it again
> afterward. So rather than flowing naturally from consistent
> characterization, this episode has everyone acting out of character
> just to achieve the goal of splitting Xander off from his friends for
> the 44 minutes they needed to tell this particular story. It's pretty
> jarring.
Well, Buffy has from time to time, but no, I can't recall a group
exclusion effort like this anywhere else. That might be a complaint
worth having. One can kinda see how Xander's mind might see (as OBS
put it) "blah blah blah end of the world blah blah go get donuts"
because that's in some way based in reality, but to get them
intentionally cutting him out of group activities you have to add
still another level of metaphor, and I'm not sure the episode can
support it.
Oddly, Willow will have the same concern about being shut out of
Buffy's world a week later.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
There's something else I forgot to mention before, too. The whole
"Xander's role in research is to bring the donuts" is another thing
that was invented for this episode alone. Back in season 2, in "What's
My Line," it's *Buffy* who's useless at research and gets sent on
snack runs. Xander even makes a joke about it.
There are some big character-related inconsistencies in this episode,
and I don't think they can be waved away with the "unreliable
narrator" explanation.
One Bit Shy
news:1184909363.4...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
IMO, everything in the Zeppo should be taken with a grain of salt. It's all
exaggerated to play as how it would feel to Xander (even if he's not there)
on a day his low attention span and insecurities combine and go into
hyperdrive. The rough outline is probably true, but the detail rather less
so.
I believe that is established in the first scene with the exaggerated
display of Xander incompetence. (A few other things too - but that's the
big one.) Xander certainly has limits in battle, but we've seen him acquit
himself well many times - most especially by rescuing others, including
Buffy multiple times. The episode might have out-subtled itself here, but I
believe that's intended as a big honking clue that something isn't quite
right. Reality shouldn't play that way.
That exaggeration is pretty constant in the episode. My favorite example
(as I've mentioned before) is how it takes two tranquilizer shots to subdue
were-Oz, when it takes only one shot every other time in the series.
There probably was some concern expressed for Xander's safety. (Buffy has
before and will again play that card.) But the extent of what we see in
this episode is probably largely imagined by Xander. Paranoid over reaction
to much milder actual statements.
So, Burt's observation that everyone acts out of character is largely
correct, I believe. But it's not real. It's unreality is a primary clue to
how perspective has been twisted to fit Xander's peculiarly distorted view.
I'm pretty confident that it's intentional and that we are supposed to
expect that a true picture would show everybody acting in character.
Whether one likes that sort of thing is a matter of taste.
OBS
Apteryx
>A reminder: These threads have a problem with mothers. They're aware
>of that.
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
>Writer: David Fury
>Director: James A. Contner
>only way things could have ever gone. Not only do I totally buy Giles
>as a betrayer in this situation
Not me. This is Giles the psycho killer. There is no way any reasonable
person (which I think we Giles has been till now) would do this to someone
they cared about, and no way anyone with a modicum of ethical sense (which I
think Giles has, at least now in his old age) would do it to anyone.
>them, and you have a feast. While I'm a bit worried about the damage
>done to the mythology by making the Watchers so one-note, it works
>beautifully for the purposes of this story.
No organisation with this style of personnel management could have lasted
more than a couple of generations at most. The Watchers Council is not
merely shown to be corrupt - it's shown to be impossible.
>Rating: Excellent
I agree that the logical absurdities do set up an emotionally powerful
story. For that I still rate it Good. It's my 54th favourite BtVS, 14th best
in season 3 (last year was 46th and 13th).
>Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
>Writer: Dan Vebber
>Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>of the episode (Faith's interlude is the approximate dividing point,
>although a few last bits of lame stuff are afterward) remains its
>redeeming feature, as it finally hits its stride along with Xander as
>he works in silence (and silly music), connecting on the comedy,
>character, and meta fronts. It always leads me feeling more
>appreciative of the episode as a whole, even if it's not a favorite by
>any stretch of the imagination.
>Rating: Decent
I did upgrade it to a Good rating in November, and it has held that rating
on this viewing. It's not a huge upgrading, merely from just below the
Good/Decent boundary to just above it. Sadly for Xander, in the most
Xander-centric epsiode, its actually the Xander-free apocaplyptic scenes
that are funniest. It's now my 75th favourite episode, 17th best in season 3
(last year was 82nd and 19th).
>Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
>Writer: Doug Petrie
>Director: Michael Lange
>This is good stuff. It has an odd vibe that threw me a bit as a first-
>time viewer, since it looks and quacks like a self-contained story,
>but is gradually revealed to be very much a Part I by the end.
>
>
>If anyone tells you
>they immediately recognized Wesley's potential to end up going where
>the Buffyverse would take him, they're lying.
>Rating: Good
Finally, 48 epsiodes in, we get introduced to the central character of the
Buffyverse :)
It is good stuff. Balthazar himself is a bit silly, but everything else
crackles. It is Good for me, and has moved up since last year to be my 44th
favourite BtVS episode, 11th best in season 3 (last year was 58th and 14th)
>Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
>Writer: Marti Noxon
>Director: Michael Gershman
>This is probably my favorite of Season Three, and probably in my top
>five or ten for the series. Even on a show like BTVS, it's rare to
>see a single hour of television that hits note after note this
>brilliantly, with every scene taking one in directions that are
>unexpected but make perfect sense in retrospect.Rating: Excellent
Not so much for me. I mean it's fun and all, but Faith going evil is pretty
much established by her closing line in Bad Girls, so this is just spelling
it out. It's my 72nd favourite BtVS episode, 16th best in season 3 (last
year was 69th and 16th)
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> And now we move into probably my favorite stretch of the season. Re-
> watching, this falling out, even temporary, and re-defining of the
> relationship between Buffy and Giles feels inevitable, like that's the
and while not the main emphasis it also starts the two year struggle
as giles struggles with who he is and what he will do when he grows up
> only way things could have ever gone. Not only do I totally buy Giles
> as a betrayer in this situation, but I sympathize with him perhaps
> more than I should. Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
> disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it. Throw
from the opening of the matrix xp trailer
when you can control your world life is - boring
so you need new challenges
a buffy that runs through the streets screaming in fear
adds drama back to the episode
> Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
> This is one that I was hoping to be able to upgrade to Good, knowing
> the conceit coming in. But as Mrs. Quality commented while watching,
> "this is such a BAD episode!" I wouldn't go that far, but Xander
> jumping around for the football is one of those moments that makes me
> want to jam screws into my eyes and ears, and the rest of the early
> going isn't a whole lot less painful. His headspace is not a good
> place for a viewer to be. The much vaunted gentle mockery of the
this is sort of the transition from boy to man
though this man is still trapped in the basement for another couple of years
and then realizes he doesnt have to be a harris
he can be himself
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> get a chance to play at being cool action heroes. If anyone tells you
> they immediately recognized Wesley's potential to end up going where
> the Buffyverse would take him, they're lying.
thinking about wesley parallels xander
idiot youth dominated by his ancestry
aborted romance with cordelia
struggles with who he really is
has a relation with a demon
eventually integrates all of what he is
> Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
> This is probably my favorite of Season Three, and probably in my top
> five or ten for the series. Even on a show like BTVS, it's rare to
> see a single hour of television that hits note after note this
> brilliantly, with every scene taking one in directions that are
> unexpected but make perfect sense in retrospect. The action never
> lets up, and the intensity is as high as it ever gets during the
> library double-crosses, Xander's evening with Faith, and her turn to
> the dark side. If I can love one thing even more intensely than
i think when faith returns to allens body
she is genuinely shaken and remorseful
not feeling powerful at all
but she cant cope and becomes defensive
then suppresses the emotion
and the play becomes reality
> Speaking of "Consequences," I'm not sure if Oz appears in this
> episode. I feel like someone else pointed out that he doesn't. The
> fact that this character's presence or absence does not register with
> me in any way makes me understand for the first time what Green is
> talking about in the S4 featurette when he says that Oz never really
> fit in as a main cast member, and how he wishes he could've stayed a
remember the yearbook picture session from homecoming
how everyone but oz presents a different persona just as the picture snaps
if not for werewolf issues next year
oz is really doesnt have much evolution which makes him a less dramatic character
> Maybe well-adjusted characters just don't mesh with Whedonverse
> shows? The thing is, though, this isn't one of those situations where
well adjusted characters make poor drama
and invunerable superheroes are not exciting
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Wouter Valentijn
<burt...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1184913547.9...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
When I saw the episode for the first time the whole pushing Xander aside
bothered me a great deal. It did indeed not compute with what we knew. But
now it has become one of my favorite episodes. It even inspired half he name
of my first website.
Yes, it is out of character (maybe some hex produced by the Sisterhood?
-) ) but in the end of that strange night he did things that totally
balanced out his over the top awkwardness he went through at the beginning.
He showed he was braver than the undead and he rescued Faith who in turn had
sex with him!
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
http://www.nksf.scifics.com/Nom20072008.html
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
Don Sample
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1184891144....@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: These threads have a problem with mothers. They're aware
> >of that.
>
>
> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
> >Writer: David Fury
> >Director: James A. Contner
>
> >only way things could have ever gone. Not only do I totally buy Giles
> >as a betrayer in this situation
>
> Not me. This is Giles the psycho killer. There is no way any reasonable
> person (which I think we Giles has been till now) would do this to someone
> they cared about, and no way anyone with a modicum of ethical sense (which I
> think Giles has, at least now in his old age) would do it to anyone.
I suggest you do a little reading on some classic psychological
experiments done by Stanley Milgram on Obedience to Authority.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Wouter Valentijn
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> schreef in bericht
news:dsample-8271C2...@news.giganews.com...
But at the end Giles was no longer obedient.... He was able to break away
from the doctrine.
Don Sample
"Wouter Valentijn" <li...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
Which shows that Giles is extraordinary.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-F07F77...@news.giganews.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Apteryx
I'm aware of them, but his results (up to 65% willing to inflict pain) were
obtained with subjects and "victims" who were strangers to each other, and
for me, those 65% fail the "modicum of ethics" test, which is what is
disturbing about the experiments. From what we have seen of Giles
previously, I'd put him in the other 35% - after all, he's a hero in a TV
show. And of course, Buffy is obviously not a stranger.
The 65% results were also achieved with factors not present here, in
particular the experimenter giving the instructions being physically present
in the same room as the subject at the time the harm was done, and the
"victim" not in the same room. Milligram found that changing either of those
factors substantially reduced the %, so the psychology is more complex than
just "here's an order from an authority figure, so I'll obey it". Although,
since I don't believe pre-Helpless Giles to be so weak-willed as to be in
the 65% in the first place, he'd also not be so weak-willed as to be
influenced by those factors.
--
Apteryx
David L. Burkhead
this thread. I will use *** to note the beginning and end of blocks of my
comments.
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184891144....@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: These threads have a problem with mothers. They're aware
of that.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner
And now we move into probably my favorite stretch of the season. Re-
watching, this falling out, even temporary, and re-defining of the
relationship between Buffy and Giles feels inevitable, like that's the
only way things could have ever gone. Not only do I totally buy Giles
as a betrayer in this situation, but I sympathize with him perhaps
more than I should. Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it. Throw
in some nice monster-movie setpieces and a great monster to go with
them, and you have a feast. While I'm a bit worried about the damage
done to the mythology by making the Watchers so one-note, it works
beautifully for the purposes of this story.
Rating: Excellent
***
I wouldn't call the watchers "one note" (unless, perhaps, I'm
misunderstanding what you mean by the term)--after all, there's a world of
difference between Giles, Wesley (not yet introduced by this episode of
course), Merrick, Quentin, and (by implication) the late Kendra's watcher.
The leadership (if Quentin is representative) seems to be made of
cold-blooded bastards, but in the field there does seem to be quite a range.
The main problem I have with the WC (pun intended) is that there really is
no legitimacy to their authority over Buffy (or any other individual
slayer), they just assume it and everyone goes along with the gag. It isn't
until the middle of season 5 before Buffy points out that The Emperor Has No
Clothes.
This episode is one that I alluded to in my earlier condemnation of the
Scoobies reactions in Revelations. Buffy's "betrayal" in not saying to the
others something to the effect of "Angel's back, let's go stake him" is
completely overshadowed by Gile's greater betrayal here.
Now, don't get me wrong, my personal condemnation here of Giles is actually
pretty mild. After all, he was raised to be a Watcher, to follow their
rules, and when in "youthful rebellion" he went outside that the results
were pretty bad. He's got a strong motivation to cling to the "established
order" even with the "bending" of the rules he'd already done in working
with Buffy. Add that to the results of the psychological studies referenced
uptopic, and one can understand why Giles did what he did. Understanding,
however, does not lessen it as a betrayal, though.
Fortunately, Buffy was more than up to the challenge. I really liked her
"out of the box" solution to that particular vampire problem (or should I
say "out of the bottle.")
Other aspects of the episode from a more "critical/review" type approach.
The episode was very well paced--with neither dullness nor confusing
fastness. The acting was good too, of course, IMO, it usually is, but more
so than usual here. Buffy's hurt and anger at Giles' betrayal came off
especially well and Kober's portrayal of Kralik was inspired. Scared me and
I'm fearless. ;)
***
Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
Writer: Dan Vebber
Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
This is one that I was hoping to be able to upgrade to Good, knowing
the conceit coming in. But as Mrs. Quality commented while watching,
"this is such a BAD episode!" I wouldn't go that far, but Xander
jumping around for the football is one of those moments that makes me
want to jam screws into my eyes and ears, and the rest of the early
going isn't a whole lot less painful. His headspace is not a good
place for a viewer to be. The much vaunted gentle mockery of the
series' conventions also falls flat until the very end, if only
because the cheap unknown spirit doesn't seem as cheap on a low-budget
show, and the Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends." The last third
of the episode (Faith's interlude is the approximate dividing point,
although a few last bits of lame stuff are afterward) remains its
redeeming feature, as it finally hits its stride along with Xander as
he works in silence (and silly music), connecting on the comedy,
character, and meta fronts. It always leads me feeling more
appreciative of the episode as a whole, even if it's not a favorite by
any stretch of the imagination.
Rating: Decent
***
I've seen this called "Xander's Identity Episode." Well, I have to disagree
with that assessment. First, you've got everybody acting way out of
character. The Xander jumping around for the football, while not strictly
contradicted as a character trait with what we've seen to date just doesn't
"gel" with the character for me. Xander had been hurt before--a lot worse
than he was when they faced the demons at the start of the episode and that
didn't lead the others to decide to leave Xander out for his own good. To
me, you just can't establish character growth and development with having
everyone acting out of character. Not only that, but at the beginning of
the very next episode, we see Xander being intimidated again by Cordelia so
he's right back to being insecure Xander again. If anything, the biggest
change in Xander's character was back in Amends, where he dropped a good
portion of the self-righteousness he had been carrying around at least since
Angel turned bad in S2. Also, this episode really doesn't foretell in any
meaningfull way where Xander's "identity" will eventually lead him with his
love for Anya (although the baggage he's still carrying from his own family
sabotages that), a job he enjoys and is good at, etc.
One thing I did like about it was that getting a car and declaring oneself
"car guy" is not the same thing as actually _being_ a "car guy" as he learns
when he finds enthusiastic car talk--even in the mouth of a pretty girl--to
be extremely boring. OTOH, I _am_ a car guy and found the girl Xander picked
up to be quite a bit too "one note" for my taste.
Still and all, while, IMO, the episode did not do what it was apparently
supposed to do, it was a fun watch. I probably agree with the "decent"
rating.
***
Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
Writer: Doug Petrie
Director: Michael Lange
This is good stuff. It has an odd vibe that threw me a bit as a first-
time viewer, since it looks and quacks like a self-contained story,
but is gradually revealed to be very much a Part I by the end. Its
primary focus is to get the show where it needs to go with Faith and
Wilkins coming into their own as villains, and Balthazar & co. prove
to be a fun (ACCEPTABLE!) diversion during the ride. (The fiancée was
disappointed that there wasn't much detail given in the special
features about how they made that costume.) Also, although Angel
still needs Buffy to save him as usual at the end, he and Giles both
get a chance to play at being cool action heroes. If anyone tells you
they immediately recognized Wesley's potential to end up going where
the Buffyverse would take him, they're lying.
Rating: Good
***
Mostly agree with the above. A couple of points. I still cringe at the
name of the vampire group (the Eliminati? Please!), and I also find demon
Balthazar rather cringeworthy myself.
Something I did notice this time around. One characteristic of Wilkins was
similar to one I really liked in Spike in season 2 (particularly the
beginning portion)--the cheerful amorality. They express it quite
differently, of course, but they both have that undercore of "having fun
with being evil." I find that a lot creepier than the more "serious" evil
of other Big Bads.
***
Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: Michael Gershman
This is probably my favorite of Season Three, and probably in my top
five or ten for the series. Even on a show like BTVS, it's rare to
see a single hour of television that hits note after note this
brilliantly, with every scene taking one in directions that are
unexpected but make perfect sense in retrospect. The action never
lets up, and the intensity is as high as it ever gets during the
library double-crosses, Xander's evening with Faith, and her turn to
the dark side. If I can love one thing even more intensely than
anything else, it's the first significant (well, with dialogue,
anyway) interaction between Faith and Angel. Separately they're just
my two favorite Buffyverse characters, but together their scenes
virtually never fail to be anything short of amazing. Spending this
quality time with Faith arguably does more to define Angel as a
character (and one worthy of a spin-off) than anything else we've seen
this year, and lets us see with the benefit of hindsight why exactly
he's going to be the one to save her from herself.
Rating: Excellent
***
Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, I absolutely love the characterization of Angel
given here by his interaction with Faith, especially how his own dark past
is used to attempt good in the present rather than only being something for
which he is trying to atone. The irony of evil being a source for good is a
theme we see again and again in this series.
In the confrontation between Faith and Buffy at the wharf, I do think Faith
struck a nerve. Mind you, I don't think Buffy is ever really in any danger
of becoming like Faith, but I do think she _worries_ about becoming like
Faith. But then, worrying about becoming like Faith is one of her stronger
innoculations against actually becoming like her.
One thought I had about this episode is that if I were a cold-hearted
bastard like Quentin Travers, there would be no "imprisoning" of rogue
slayers. After all, if you imprison a slayer you end up without a slayer
for the length of the imprisonment. Kill the slayer, instead, and you get a
new slayer. Now, I don't think Wesley is cynical enough to be a knowing
party to something like that, (no attempts to determine if Faith is really
"rogue" or just scared and confused nor attempt to "rehabilitate" her, just
summary execution to activate the next slayer) but I wouldn't put it past
Quentin to have exactly that idea in mind while not keeping "field watchers"
privy to it.
***
--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@asmicro.com "While we live, let us live."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://www.coldservings.com -- Back from hiatus!
Updates Wednesdays
Michael Ikeda
news:f7rev7$ful$1...@aioe.org:
Except that Giles' indoctrination is a LOT stronger than the
indoctrination given Milgram's subjects. Giles comes from a long
line of Watchers. He's been raised to be a Watcher, raised and
trained his entire life to see the Watcher's Council as THE
legitimate authority in matters supernatural. Raised and trained
to see his duties to the Council to be more important than any
personal concerns.
It isn't about being "weak-willed". It's about having a strong
sense of duty trained into you.
(And as has been pointed out by another poster, Giles' one act of
serious rebellion previous to this did not end well.)
What Giles does in "Helpless" is a major betrayal, arguably the
worst thing that any of the Scoobies does until the last episode of
Season 6. But it's a betrayal that's entirely in character for
Giles. Because being a Watcher isn't just a job for him. To a
large degree it's who he is.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> misunderstanding what you mean by the term)--after all, there's a world of
> difference between Giles, Wesley (not yet introduced by this episode of
> course), Merrick, Quentin, and (by implication) the late Kendra's watcher.
> The leadership (if Quentin is representative) seems to be made of
> cold-blooded bastards, but in the field there does seem to be quite a range.
> The main problem I have with the WC (pun intended) is that there really is
cow is better
then you got moo and cow
> no legitimacy to their authority over Buffy (or any other individual
> slayer), they just assume it and everyone goes along with the gag. It isn't
> until the middle of season 5 before Buffy points out that The Emperor Has No
> Clothes.
they have the authority of any general over a conscript
as quentin points out they are in continual warfare with deadly foes
the watchers dont know if they will attacked directly en masse
or even if they might get blown up real good
they are a military without uniforms
and militaries arent organized the same way civillian do
they have to maintain discipline and order
while anybody standing next to you might suddenly drop dead
also later on we get a rogue slayer with faith and an insane one with dana
and we can see how much damage a slayer can do to human populations
dangerous weapons require rigorous controls
to ensure they point in the right direction
cow is as legitimate as any non-invading military
> This episode is one that I alluded to in my earlier condemnation of the
> Scoobies reactions in Revelations. Buffy's "betrayal" in not saying to the
> others something to the effect of "Angel's back, let's go stake him" is
> completely overshadowed by Gile's greater betrayal here.
giles is at cross loyalities
which always makes for drama
> ***
> Mostly agree with the above. A couple of points. I still cringe at the
> name of the vampire group (the Eliminati? Please!), and I also find demon
> Balthazar rather cringeworthy myself.
illumnati
the illumenated ones (the enlightened)
my problem is that chain mail is specifically designed
to prevent penetration by edged steel weapons
a wooden stake even with slayer strength aint going to do it
> One thought I had about this episode is that if I were a cold-hearted
> bastard like Quentin Travers, there would be no "imprisoning" of rogue
> slayers. After all, if you imprison a slayer you end up without a slayer
> for the length of the imprisonment. Kill the slayer, instead, and you get a
initially faith wasnt considered rogue
that other slayers had killed innocent people
and that while tragic
its suggested that if it were truly accidental and the slayer was sane
there would be no punishment
its later when faith is clearly a murderer
that the council sends the three stooges to kill her
> summary execution to activate the next slayer) but I wouldn't put it past
> Quentin to have exactly that idea in mind while not keeping "field watchers"
> privy to it.
watchers have been around for millenia
the council might keep that secret for years or even decades
but eventually the secrets would leak among the entire organization
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
Repeat the Milgram experiment using subjects in the military and a
superior officer as the authority figure, and that 65% turns into
something like 95%.
David L. Burkhead
>> I wouldn't call the watchers "one note" (unless, perhaps, I'm
>> misunderstanding what you mean by the term)--after all, there's a
>> world of difference between Giles, Wesley (not yet introduced by
>> this episode of course), Merrick, Quentin, and (by implication) the
>> late Kendra's watcher. The leadership (if Quentin is representative)
>> seems to be made of cold-blooded bastards, but in the field there
>> does seem to be quite a range. The main problem I have with the WC
>> (pun intended) is that there really is
>
> cow is better
> then you got moo and cow
>
>> no legitimacy to their authority over Buffy (or any other individual
>> slayer), they just assume it and everyone goes along with the gag.
>> It isn't until the middle of season 5 before Buffy points out that
>> The Emperor Has No Clothes.
>
> they have the authority of any general over a conscript
No they don't. The authority of a general is ceded to him by the
government. Now, one may question whether governments/states have any
legitimate authority, but such is, within limits, generally assumed. The
Watchers Council has no such legitimacy.
> as quentin points out they are in continual warfare with deadly foes
> the watchers dont know if they will attacked directly en masse
> or even if they might get blown up real good
Quentin claims it, but his claim does not hold up. Bascically, WC vs.
V&D (Vamps and Demons) is a Hatfield/McCoy feud, or maybe a vigilance
committee going after the Clanton Gang. They have no authority that is not
simply assumed on their own part. Now, given the circumstances of their
particular vigilante activity, I would certainly be willing to recognize a
"right" to recruit volunteers or to hire mercenaries. They do not have any
legitimate authority to take Mamelukes.
> they are a military without uniforms
They are no more a military than the Bloods and Crips are a military
_with_ uniforms.
> and militaries arent organized the same way civillian do
> they have to maintain discipline and order
> while anybody standing next to you might suddenly drop dead
I know quite a bit about how militaries are organized since I not only
served 6 years in the Air Force, but it's a topic of research I'm
on--military organizations, military training, and military history.
> also later on we get a rogue slayer with faith and an insane one with
> dana and we can see how much damage a slayer can do to human
> populations
> dangerous weapons require rigorous controls
> to ensure they point in the right direction
You mean controlled by the people who were going to kill Buffy and let
Faith go free? ("This Year's Girl" and "Who are you")? I don't even
recognize the WC's _competence_ to provide those controls, let alone their
legitimacy.
> cow is as legitimate as any non-invading military
WC is no more legitimate than the Mafia.
>> This episode is one that I alluded to in my earlier condemnation of
>> the Scoobies reactions in Revelations. Buffy's "betrayal" in not
>> saying to the others something to the effect of "Angel's back, let's
>> go stake him" is completely overshadowed by Gile's greater betrayal
>> here.
>
> giles is at cross loyalities
> which always makes for drama
>> ***
>> Mostly agree with the above. A couple of points. I still cringe at
>> the name of the vampire group (the Eliminati? Please!), and I also
>> find demon Balthazar rather cringeworthy myself.
>
> illumnati
> the illumenated ones (the enlightened)
That was the name they were playing on. The pronounciation of the
initial vowel, however, was clearly "eh" rather than "ih", repeated several
times. A bunch of enlightened ones were the "illuminati"; a bunch of
duelists were the "elliminati."
> my problem is that chain mail is specifically designed
> to prevent penetration by edged steel weapons
>
> a wooden stake even with slayer strength aint going to do it
Chain mail is good against edged weapons. It's week against piercing
weapons. If anything has a sharp enough point to get within a ring, it's
not that difficult to break the rivits holding it closed* and punch on
through. That's one of the reason the battle of Crecy was so one-sided.
Arrows would just go right through chainmail even at distances where they'd
lost a lot of their initial energy.
*Chain mail was made by first wrapping iron/steel wire around a thin spindle
forming a long coil. Rings were then clipped from the spindle. For the
best chain mail, the ends of the rings were flattened and overlapped, then a
hole was punched through the flattened section and a steel rivit used to
secure the flattened ends together. The weakest mail just had the ends
abbutted together. Somewhere in between was mail where the ends were welded
together (welds broke more easily than rivits).
>> One thought I had about this episode is that if I were a cold-hearted
>> bastard like Quentin Travers, there would be no "imprisoning" of
>> rogue slayers. After all, if you imprison a slayer you end up
>> without a slayer for the length of the imprisonment. Kill the
>> slayer, instead, and you get a
>
> initially faith wasnt considered rogue
> that other slayers had killed innocent people
> and that while tragic
> its suggested that if it were truly accidental and the slayer was sane
> there would be no punishment
For Quentin, as shown , this wouldn't matter. After all, why take the
chance when you can get a fresh, new slayer ripe for enslaving and
indoctrinating.
> its later when faith is clearly a murderer
> that the council sends the three stooges to kill her
>> summary execution to activate the next slayer) but I wouldn't put it
>> past Quentin to have exactly that idea in mind while not keeping
>> "field watchers" privy to it.
>
> watchers have been around for millenia
> the council might keep that secret for years or even decades
> but eventually the secrets would leak among the entire organization
Ah, but we may not be talking about the council for millenia. We may
only be talking about the council since Quentin became a major force
(implied, at least later to be the "leader") in it.
--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@sff.net "While we live, let us live."
One Bit Shy
news:1184891144....@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> of that.
Don't we all?
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
> And now we move into probably my favorite stretch of the season.
This is an awfully good group. This and Consequences are probably my 2nd
and 3rd favorites of the season.
> Re-
> watching, this falling out, even temporary, and re-defining of the
> relationship between Buffy and Giles feels inevitable, like that's the
> only way things could have ever gone.
I'm not sure what you're going for with that, but this rewatching really
reminded me how much the episode is about Buffy inevitably having to move
beyond Giles - not just Giles's failure and temporary abandonment of Buffy.
The general growing up theme about moving out on your own is pretty strong
this episode. (I was struck how Joyce is the truly "helpless" one this
episode.) Some big subtext with Giles is his struggle to let Buffy go.
That's quite paradoxical since the notion is buried in an overtly evil plot
by the WC to force Giles to abandon Buffy. Giles is so wrong to do what he
does to Buffy, yet Buffy probably comes out stronger for it - kind of like
the WC intended - and all the love and care Giles shows Buffy at the end may
no longer be all that helpful.
From the WC's point of view, Giles was the failure here. Granted, they're
evil. But in Joss's perverse world, it's the evil ones that keep coming up
with the true insight. One way of briefly describing this plot is to say
that Giles makes Buffy handle the crisis on her own, but then can't bear her
suffering and runs to her side. There are -er- inaccuracies in that
description, but it seems that subconsciously it's how Giles will
internalize this. Especially in the sense of blocking Buffy's development.
So later you get his Restless dream where his "daughter" Buffy is
infantilized. And especially you get the S6 crisis when he leaves Buffy.
His part of OMWF mirrors this episode in the fashion I described. Again he
forces Buffy to go alone into the den of evil. Then can't stand what he's
done and tries to rush to her aid. Here we have the WC to scold Giles about
his true duty. In OMWF he mercilessly scolds himself. And then effectively
fires himself just as the WC does here.
What completes this parallel for me is that in each case Giles essentially
gets it wrong on both ends. The abandonment in both cases is cruel
(especially if you extend the S6 one to include his departure to England),
and probably misreading what's truly best for Buffy. Yes she comes through
both times - probably stronger for having done it - but with penalties. Too
much scar tissue kind of strength, and a forgetting that so much of Buffy's
true strength is built out of the support of her friends. Then when he
tries to rush in to help at the end, it's mostly too late. Serving more to
highlight the prior abandonment than to truly help. (Yeah, Giles does get
the second vampire in Helpless, but it feels like an afterthought placed
next to Buffy's exhaustion from the real battle that Giles missed.)
In both Helpless and OMWF Giles is in a lot of pain over wanting to be there
for Buffy. Probably in both cases it's the father's love that is spoken of
so strongly in Helpless. In OMWF, though, it's probably more clear that he
doesn't know how to do that. His idea of how to help her is more training,
more Slayer building. The tools he brings to the effort are those of a
Watcher - not a parent.
Or perhaps the better explanation is that he can't be both a watcher and a
father. That the trying makes him fall short at each. In other words, evil
as they are, the WC nailed it.
Personally, I think it's more a personality flaw in Giles. But whatever the
explanation, Giles does fall short. Now that I know where the series will
go, there's all that much more added pain in the penultimate scene of
Helpless as I realize that Buffy and Giles aren't going to be able to hold
onto that closeness.
Anyway, I'm pretty pleased with how this watching has helped me reconcile S6
Giles. I hadn't fully recognized before how much the letting go aspect was
mirrored here. And especially how Giles could screw it up. I don't think
I'll ever get over some of the clunky aspects of the S6 story, but at least
it feels a little truer to character. S7 remains harder for me to handle.
More thought still required. But presumably this episode at least start
Giles on a path of reworking his watcher identity - ultimately bringing him
around to a place much more aligned with WC philosophy than he could
probably imagine here in Helpless.
> Not only do I totally buy Giles
> as a betrayer in this situation, but I sympathize with him perhaps
> more than I should.
I think Giles goes through periodic efforts to distance himself - even kind
of dehumanize himself - trying to be the one able to make the hard decision.
(Perhaps Wesley's problem was that, in spite of putting on his hard face, he
kept too much of his humanity exposed. So he kept wounding himself
grievously.) But then breaks down and runs to a kind of emotional
outpouring (in a very British fashion) that's kind of awesome. It only
happens once in a while. This episode - especially at the very end - is one
of the best examples. Sympathy cannot help override disappointment when I
watch Giles suppress the personal devastation of his career taken from him
so that he can care for Buffy's wounds.
I think that's what's especially lacking in S7.
> Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
> disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it.
Perhaps. I'm not quite convinced of that. But it is an outstanding
depiction.
As people have mentioned before, one of the interesting manifestations of
her weakness is seeing how desperately Buffy wants to hold onto her
slayerness. For so much of the series, being The Slayer is presented as a
problem. Makes it impossible to lead a normal life. Threatens to turn her
into a killer. Almost certainly will kill her eventually. (Already has
actually.) And so on. This episode really stands out for briefly showing
Buffy thinking that it's a good thing. (Quite a change from Anne.) Though
the way it turns out, Buffy probably doesn't feel so good about slayerhood
at the end.
What I noticed more this time around, though, was the connection to feelings
of abandonment. She's already upset about her real father blowing her off,
and disappointed at Giles's lack of response to her reaching out to him.
Now her very nature and identity seems to have run off. The abandonment
element then hits with a vengeance when the loss of her powers can be
attributed to the direct actions of Giles. Then I realize that being Slayer
has become her primary connection to people, to love. Giles, Xander, Willow
and even Angel are in her life because she's the Slayer. I suppose that
it's not the big theme of this episode, but it still provides a lot of
foundation for the linkage between being The Slayer and love. That'll get
more explicit in S5.
> Throw
> in some nice monster-movie setpieces and a great monster to go with
> them, and you have a feast. While I'm a bit worried about the damage
> done to the mythology by making the Watchers so one-note, it works
> beautifully for the purposes of this story.
I wrote a lot about that last time around and will let it stand. Briefly,
I'm quite happy with the WC concept at this point. A powerful and
interesting entity could have been built out of this. My disappointment
starts with the arrival of Wesley.
> Rating: Excellent
I've always loved this episode, but even more this go around. It's
relatively narrow focus prevents it from achieving the sense of great import
that Revelations and Consequences do. But it's second to none for gripping
you with emotion. And, hey, fantastic scary monster story too. Kralik
would be a good candidate for the series best one episode monster. This is
a very strong Excellent.
> Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
> Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
> ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends."
But they are more self mocking. I keep seeing the argument that it's no
different than what we've seen before - yet everybody notices it here
anyway. *Something's* got to be different for it to stand out enough to be
noticed.
I think I laugh at the stilted language of the main cast more every time I
watch the episode. I suppose they could have made it more obvious by
getting people to throw their hands up to their foreheads and swooning. But
I think carrying it to that level of ridiculousness would get in the way of
everything being played as Xander would see it. It's not only a joke.
Though they get mighty close to that level with the Buffy/Angel/Xander
scene.
> Rating: Decent
I enjoy the construct and keep appreciating the details. I think this may
be the first episode that they really play with the audience's perceptions
of reality. The series will do that again. But the episode stubbornly
resists being a truly great one. It'll have to settle for a Good rating
from me.
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> This is good stuff. It has an odd vibe that threw me a bit as a first-
> time viewer, since it looks and quacks like a self-contained story,
> but is gradually revealed to be very much a Part I by the end.
Yeah, but it's still pretty self contained anyway. I think this is the
easiest Part I in the series for me to watch without having to immediately
rush to Part II.
For me, this episode is the peak of Faith as mirror to Buffy - the possible
alternate identity for Buffy to adopt. As such it's more about Buffy than
Faith. I really enjoy (in a scary way) Buffy sliding into Faith's mode of
thinking. Buffy's like a kid discovering alcohol. She gets drunk on
slaying and can't wait to rush back and do it again. Then the inevitable
wreck and unbearable consequences that bring her up short - too late. When
Faith says she doesn't care, that's kind of an intro to her terrible story
that will take off next episode. But it's also a conclusion to Buffy's
flirtation with Faith's wild side. There's a message there that the Faith
option demands that you not care. Which Buffy could never do. And so the
mirror that is Faith is smashed. Buffy can't be Faith. That's a real
conclusion, even as the narrative moves to a Part II.
Next episode goes somewhere different. Focusing on Faith rather than Buffy
to begin with. Which also serves to better establish Faith as her own
character with her own story - not as much the vehicle for illuminating
Buffy. (Not that the Buffy connection is removed of course, just not so
limited to that.) And some role reversal as Buffy more clearly becomes the
mirror to Faith - the alternative Faith yearns for inside but is incapable
of being, or perhaps too scared to be. Instead she runs exactly the
opposite direction.
Connected, but pretty distinct as well.
> Its
> primary focus is to get the show where it needs to go with Faith and
> Wilkins coming into their own as villains,
The Mayor really takes off this episode. I don't think it's necessarily
clear that he's the real deal big bad of the season until here. Not much
doubt after he commences the 100 days with a dose of invincibility. Now
he's genuinely formidable.
> and Balthazar & co. prove
> to be a fun (ACCEPTABLE!) diversion during the ride.
A single episode monster that I didn't originally like but have come to
enjoy more over time.
> (The fiancée was
> disappointed that there wasn't much detail given in the special
> features about how they made that costume.) Also, although Angel
> still needs Buffy to save him as usual at the end, he and Giles
Wesley really brings out the wit in Giles. They should do stand-up
together.
> both
> get a chance to play at being cool action heroes. If anyone tells you
> they immediately recognized Wesley's potential to end up going where
> the Buffyverse would take him, they're lying.
This is the first time that I've watched this episode since going through
AtS. I'm a little surprised how well his character plays with that
knowledge. I'm OK with the start. A little thrilled by it actually. I'm
curious to see how my reaction to that continues. (Doesn't improve the WC
concept in the slightest though.)
> Rating: Good
It's awfully close to Excellent. It's also a little different from most
episodes in how action packed it is (well staged fights too) and its use of
throbbing music and overall bursting with energy. But I think I'll keep it
at the high end of Good for now.
> Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
Noxon's best episode maybe?
> This is probably my favorite of Season Three, and probably in my top
> five or ten for the series. Even on a show like BTVS, it's rare to
> see a single hour of television that hits note after note this
> brilliantly, with every scene taking one in directions that are
> unexpected but make perfect sense in retrospect. The action never
> lets up, and the intensity is as high as it ever gets during the
> library double-crosses, Xander's evening with Faith, and her turn to
> the dark side. If I can love one thing even more intensely than
> anything else, it's the first significant (well, with dialogue,
> anyway) interaction between Faith and Angel. Separately they're just
> my two favorite Buffyverse characters, but together their scenes
> virtually never fail to be anything short of amazing. Spending this
> quality time with Faith arguably does more to define Angel as a
> character (and one worthy of a spin-off) than anything else we've seen
> this year, and lets us see with the benefit of hindsight why exactly
> he's going to be the one to save her from herself.
They're not my favorite two characters, but otherwise, ditto. For all that
AtS achieved in its own right, in the end I still think the best thing it
did was follow through so brilliantly with Faith. In so doing, it has added
a richness to re-watching Faith this season. (And I expect in S4.)
Faith/Angel this episode crackles more than ever.
Angel's character is being played differently now too, as you observe. But
I think that really started in Gingerbread. It just gets more room to show
off here.
> Rating: Excellent
No new insight to offer here. I think I talked myself out about Faith last
go around. But it's a great episode. Easy Excellent.
> Speaking of "Consequences," I'm not sure if Oz appears in this
> episode.
I can't argue with your observations about Oz. Mostly I agree with them.
One thing though. While Oz doesn't have much of a character arc - little
character growth - we do learn a fair amount about the way he thinks and
makes his way through life. IMO, the Slayer support gig would have to
eventually wear on him. I don't see that as something that would naturally
interest him. He's only there because of Willow - and eventually I don't
think that would be enough. Even without the werewolf identity quest he
embarks on in S4, I tend to think that he'd get restless for the road
anyway. He's just the kind of guy that needs to go to Tibet or some such
exotic locale just for the experience of it.
So I tend to think that even though the true circumstances were externally
induced, the timing of his departure proved to be just about right. I think
Oz/Willow was always a relationship with a clock on it.
As for the effect on the series, the post S3 character changes are a very
big reason why I don't buy into the notion of early BtVS being better. I
can understand the dispute over the relative value of Angel vs. Spike. But
exchanging Cordelia for Anya and Oz for Tara are, IMO, huge upgrades to the
series.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:13a52l7...@news.supernews.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1184891144....@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> A reminder: These threads have a problem with mothers.
>> They're aware of that.
>
> Don't we all?
>
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
>
>> And now we move into probably my favorite stretch of the
>> season.
>
> This is an awfully good group. This and Consequences are
> probably my 2nd and 3rd favorites of the season.
>
>
>> Re-
>> watching, this falling out, even temporary, and re-defining of
>> the relationship between Buffy and Giles feels inevitable, like
>> that's the only way things could have ever gone.
>
> I'm not sure what you're going for with that, but this
> rewatching really reminded me how much the episode is about
> Buffy inevitably having to move beyond Giles - not just Giles's
> failure and temporary abandonment of Buffy.
Among other things, I see this episode as an important point in the
shift in the command structure of the group--from a division of
labor where Buffy is in tactical command out in the field but Giles
is tends to be in charge of general strategy and planning, to Buffy
being the sole leader.
While the new command structure is not necessarily better, the
shift was probably inevitable given the people involved.
(Inevitable even without the events of "Helpless", although
"Helpless" and its aftermath did probably accelerate the changes.)
>
>> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
>
>> This is good stuff. It has an odd vibe that threw me a bit as
>> a first- time viewer, since it looks and quacks like a
>> self-contained story, but is gradually revealed to be very much
>> a Part I by the end.
>
One of my favorite bits is near the beginning, when Buffy is
introduced to Wesley. She's conspicuously deferential to Giles,
sending the message that, as far as she's concerned, he's still her
REAL Watcher.
(Of course, despite what Buffy might say at this point, Giles is
never really her Watcher again in the same way that he was before
"Helpless".)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote innews:f7rev7$ful$1...@aioe.org:
>
>
>
> > "Don Sample" <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> >news:dsample-8271C2...@news.giganews.com...
> >> In article <f7q6if$k9...@aioe.org>, "Apteryx"
Took the general sentiments right out of my mouth. Indoctrination is
an extremely powerful force. I'd assume that the Watchers have
specific training that involves drilling into members' heads the idea
that however painful it may be to put their Slayer through whatever,
it's what has to be done for the sake of the future of the human
race. Add to that Giles learning as a child that he has a sacred
duty, and it being something that he comes back to after his misspent
youth.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > also later on we get a rogue slayer with faith and an insane one with
> > dana and we can see how much damage a slayer can do to human
> > populations
> > dangerous weapons require rigorous controls
> > to ensure they point in the right direction
>
> You mean controlled by the people who were going to kill Buffy and let
> Faith go free? ("This Year's Girl" and "Who are you")? I don't even
> recognize the WC's _competence_ to provide those controls, let alone their
> legitimacy.
That's one of my bigger problems with the Watchers throughout the
series - they're presented as not only authoritarian, but also pretty
stupid. The Watchers we see (including Wesley, while a Council
member) consistently demonstrate complete incompetence in what they
profess to be doing, and Buffy consistently comes up with better ways
to fight evil than they're managed with their thousands-year-old
organization and resources. As far as adversaries or authorities go,
the WC is a straw-man.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In the confrontation between Faith and Buffy at the wharf, I do think Faith
> struck a nerve. Mind you, I don't think Buffy is ever really in any danger
> of becoming like Faith, but I do think she _worries_ about becoming like
> Faith. But then, worrying about becoming like Faith is one of her stronger
> innoculations against actually becoming like her.
Exactly how much danger there is of that can be subject to debate.
I'd say she tried it in "This Year's Girl" and it didn't take, because
it's simply not who she is at this point. But the notion of Faith as
an aspect of what Buffy could be is a major theme which the show hits
on repeatedly; Faith becoming a fascinating character in her own right
was probably more of a happy discovery rather than her main reason for
being created. That'll continue with Faith's focus on making Buffy
more like her, running all the way into "Graduation Day."
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> One thing though. While Oz doesn't have much of a character arc - little
> character growth - we do learn a fair amount about the way he thinks and
> makes his way through life. IMO, the Slayer support gig would have to
> eventually wear on him. I don't see that as something that would naturally
> interest him. He's only there because of Willow - and eventually I don't
> think that would be enough. Even without the werewolf identity quest he
> embarks on in S4, I tend to think that he'd get restless for the road
> anyway. He's just the kind of guy that needs to go to Tibet or some such
> exotic locale just for the experience of it.
>
> So I tend to think that even though the true circumstances were externally
> induced, the timing of his departure proved to be just about right. I think
> Oz/Willow was always a relationship with a clock on it.
Interesting thoughts. I'm not sure if I can see him as restless in
the sense that he has no particular ambitions, but that could keep him
from settling into too much a permanent routine either.
> As for the effect on the series, the post S3 character changes are a very
> big reason why I don't buy into the notion of early BtVS being better. I
> can understand the dispute over the relative value of Angel vs. Spike. But
> exchanging Cordelia for Anya and Oz for Tara are, IMO, huge upgrades to the
> series.
Well, S3 is still my favorite, in large part because of the quality of
the writing and the raw emotional power of its key stories and vivid
characters. I almost feel like if the Buffy and Faith arc was intact,
most of the other cast members could all be replaced by clones of
Kennedy and I'd still be pretty happy with it. Some feel the same way
about the A-plot of S2. There's more than that, though, since it's
not just discrete ingredients that go into making a TV show. At some
point I'll have to come up with a post about why I like Season Seven
so much despite hating such a high proportion of its component parts.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
I think it's a happy discovery indeed. Not just because Faith is
fascinating in her own right, but because there are limits to what they can
pull off in the business of Faith being a mirror to Buffy - the thing she
might be. They do follow through on that repeatedly - like with the I am
the law theme. But it becomes clear - especially here in S3 - that Buffy
has brakes on her, through both her personal connects and through her innate
heart - that prevent her from truly going down Faith's path.
The great thing about Faith taking off as her own story is that it lets the
mirror be reversed so that Buffy can be the alternative for Faith to be
drawn to. Ultimately I think that proves the more interesting side of the
mirror mirror story. But better than both is that they can be explored in
tandem. It sustains this weird sense of connected sisterhood between them
in spite of their many and manifest differences.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> On Jul 21, 5:37 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> One thing though. While Oz doesn't have much of a character arc - little
>> character growth - we do learn a fair amount about the way he thinks and
>> makes his way through life. IMO, the Slayer support gig would have to
>> eventually wear on him. I don't see that as something that would
>> naturally
>> interest him. He's only there because of Willow - and eventually I don't
>> think that would be enough. Even without the werewolf identity quest he
>> embarks on in S4, I tend to think that he'd get restless for the road
>> anyway. He's just the kind of guy that needs to go to Tibet or some such
>> exotic locale just for the experience of it.
>>
>> So I tend to think that even though the true circumstances were
>> externally
>> induced, the timing of his departure proved to be just about right. I
>> think
>> Oz/Willow was always a relationship with a clock on it.
>
> Interesting thoughts. I'm not sure if I can see him as restless in
> the sense that he has no particular ambitions, but that could keep him
> from settling into too much a permanent routine either.
Yeah, I know what you mean. He is rather the slacker. But his drifting
strikes me as different than apathy. He still chooses what he wants and can
be quite determined about settng aside what he doesn't. I think you get
hints of that in some of his famous relationship monents with Willow - like
telling her to leave him alone to work out his Xander issue and that feeling
good about herself is her problem. Maybe going on the road wouldn't be the
particular thing - I chose that because of what the show has him do in S4 -
but I struggle seeing being a Scooby as much of an enticement to him. Some
day he'd run into something else he liked better or just get sick of being a
Scooby. And that would be trouble between him and Willow no matter what.
>> As for the effect on the series, the post S3 character changes are a very
>> big reason why I don't buy into the notion of early BtVS being better. I
>> can understand the dispute over the relative value of Angel vs. Spike.
>> But
>> exchanging Cordelia for Anya and Oz for Tara are, IMO, huge upgrades to
>> the
>> series.
>
> Well, S3 is still my favorite, in large part because of the quality of
> the writing and the raw emotional power of its key stories and vivid
> characters. I almost feel like if the Buffy and Faith arc was intact,
> most of the other cast members could all be replaced by clones of
> Kennedy and I'd still be pretty happy with it. Some feel the same way
> about the A-plot of S2. There's more than that, though, since it's
> not just discrete ingredients that go into making a TV show. At some
> point I'll have to come up with a post about why I like Season Seven
> so much despite hating such a high proportion of its component parts.
The character list is only a contributing factor, albeit a valuable one.
I'm mostly speaking to the dismissive attitude towards later seasons. I'm
not going to quarrel with individual favorite choices. I really do believe
a decent case can be made for each of the seven seasons being the best one.
S7 is the most ambitious season of all to my mind. Not just in quantity,
but in quality of meaning. What it aspires to is fantastic - and most of it
does get communicated, if only in outline. The struggles in execution,
which aren't minor, still don't stop the message. I'm amazed at how much
was effectively wrapped up for the whole series by the end - while still
retaining the sense that there are still great lives to live for our heroes.
The TV series feels complete - which often doesn't happen. But the
imagining goes on forever.
The elements that produce that are many - perhaps too many for its own good.
I think the most important is simply tying the series together. That's
obviously represented in how the final episode addresses the conflict
introduced in the first episode of the series. But it's not limited to
that. A whole bunch of favorite series themes are worked one last time in
S7 - from trust to redemption to the journey through life and many more.
The dream of S7 is just awesome. You can really feel that dream if you let
yourself.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
> On Jul 20, 8:48 pm, "David L. Burkhead" <dburkh...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
>> > also later on we get a rogue slayer with faith and an insane
>> > one with dana and we can see how much damage a slayer can do
>> > to human populations
>> > dangerous weapons require rigorous controls
>> > to ensure they point in the right direction
>>
>> You mean controlled by the people who were going to kill
>> Buffy and let
>> Faith go free? ("This Year's Girl" and "Who are you")? I don't
>> even recognize the WC's _competence_ to provide those controls,
>> let alone their legitimacy.
>
> That's one of my bigger problems with the Watchers throughout
> the series - they're presented as not only authoritarian, but
> also pretty stupid. The Watchers we see (including Wesley,
> while a Council member) consistently demonstrate complete
> incompetence in what they profess to be doing
Not exactly "complete incompetence". Even at the start, Wesley is
generally capable at the "go get books, look stuff up" part of being
a Watcher. And even in S3 his opinions are usually worth
considering, even though S3 Wesley has a positive gift for expressing
his views in ways that make the Scoobies unreceptive.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1185143167.7...@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > David L. Burkhead wrote:
>
> >> In the confrontation between Faith and Buffy at the wharf, I do think
> >> Faith
> >> struck a nerve. Mind you, I don't think Buffy is ever really in any
> >> danger
> >> of becoming like Faith, but I do think she _worries_ about becoming like
> >> Faith. But then, worrying about becoming like Faith is one of her
> >> stronger
> >> innoculations against actually becoming like her.
>
> > Exactly how much danger there is of that can be subject to debate.
> > I'd say she tried it in "This Year's Girl" and it didn't take, because
> > it's simply not who she is at this point.
I meant "Bad Girls," of course.
And agreed with the comment below,
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote innews:1185142825.7...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 20, 8:48 pm, "David L. Burkhead" <dburkh...@sff.net>
> > wrote:
> >> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> >> > also later on we get a rogue slayer with faith and an insane
> >> > one with dana and we can see how much damage a slayer can do
> >> > to human populations
> >> > dangerous weapons require rigorous controls
> >> > to ensure they point in the right direction
>
> >> You mean controlled by the people who were going to kill
> >> Buffy and let
> >> Faith go free? ("This Year's Girl" and "Who are you")? I don't
> >> even recognize the WC's _competence_ to provide those controls,
> >> let alone their legitimacy.
>
> > That's one of my bigger problems with the Watchers throughout
> > the series - they're presented as not only authoritarian, but
> > also pretty stupid. The Watchers we see (including Wesley,
> > while a Council member) consistently demonstrate complete
> > incompetence in what they profess to be doing
>
> Not exactly "complete incompetence". Even at the start, Wesley is
> generally capable at the "go get books, look stuff up" part of being
> a Watcher. And even in S3 his opinions are usually worth
> considering, even though S3 Wesley has a positive gift for expressing
> his views in ways that make the Scoobies unreceptive.
Nothing is going to convince me that Wesley is portrayed as capable at
his job. Looking up stuff is only one part of being a Watcher, and
outside of "Choices," the show highlights Wesley strutting around
talking about fighting vampires in controlled circumstances, getting
beaten up, ready to sell out after getting beaten up, losing sparring
matches to a guy who's not even paying attention, and so on. And he's
the guy the WC chose to handle their two Slayers, taking over where
Giles was such a failure.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1184891144....@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
I'm inclined to parallel the extended S6 story rather than only OMWF,
because the reasons he gives in OMWF lead him to leave for England the
next week. Really short on time right now, but for me the difference
is that in "Helpless," Giles realizes what he's done wrong, and takes
steps to correct it, and it's shown that he'll have to live with what
he's done for a long time, and is ready to face it. That's a
satisfying character story with a beginning, middle, and
continuation. Pat, maybe, but sometimes I want pat from my heroes.
That's missing in S6; I don't think either the show or the character
do enough to hold him accountable for abandoning Buffy, and it hurts
the story a lot for me.
> As people have mentioned before, one of the interesting manifestations of
> her weakness is seeing how desperately Buffy wants to hold onto her
> slayerness. For so much of the series, being The Slayer is presented as a
> problem. Makes it impossible to lead a normal life. Threatens to turn her
> into a killer. Almost certainly will kill her eventually. (Already has
> actually.) And so on. This episode really stands out for briefly showing
> Buffy thinking that it's a good thing. (Quite a change from Anne.) Though
> the way it turns out, Buffy probably doesn't feel so good about slayerhood
> at the end.
Well, it's deceptively simple in some ways. Buffy wants a normal
life, but she really doesn't want to give up her swank super-powers.
Specifically, once you know what's out there, it'd be nice to know you
can defend yourself against it. From WTTH: "I didn't say I'd never
slay another vampire. It's not like I have all these fluffy-bunny
feelings for them, I'm just not gonna get way extracurricular with
it. You know, if I see one, sure I'll--" Quite a recovery from the
summer in L.A., though.
> What I noticed more this time around, though, was the connection to feelings
> of abandonment. She's already upset about her real father blowing her off,
> and disappointed at Giles's lack of response to her reaching out to him.
> Now her very nature and identity seems to have run off. The abandonment
> element then hits with a vengeance when the loss of her powers can be
> attributed to the direct actions of Giles. Then I realize that being Slayer
> has become her primary connection to people, to love. Giles, Xander, Willow
> and even Angel are in her life because she's the Slayer. I suppose that
> it's not the big theme of this episode, but it still provides a lot of
> foundation for the linkage between being The Slayer and love. That'll get
> more explicit in S5.
INVISIBLE THEME
(Sorry, someone's spent way too much time on http://icanhascheezeburger.com)
> > Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
> > Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
> > ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends."
>
> But they are more self mocking. I keep seeing the argument that it's no
> different than what we've seen before - yet everybody notices it here
> anyway. *Something's* got to be different for it to stand out enough to be
> noticed.
The only reason I noticed it (of course, I don't listen to background
music, so a bit of a special case) is that the end of the episode made
sense out of where they were going with it. Too ridiculous and one
loses the sense of it feeling real to Xander, but the problem with
being slightly restrained is that the series tends towards cheese
anyway, so I honestly do not get anything out of the self-mocking.
Well, most of it, anyway. I'm kinda fond of the Willow/Xander
exchange ("It's really bad... I love you, Xander!" "...D'huh?") And,
as mentioned, it finally works at the end, with the tiny glimpse big
noisy clusterfuck in the library and the follow-up refusal to explain
anything to us. But the rest, not impressed. And I will forever fail
to see how the Ozwolf being harder to subdue than in a normal episode
is particularly interesting, or even a particularly nice touch.
> For me, this episode is the peak of Faith as mirror to Buffy - the possible
> alternate identity for Buffy to adopt. As such it's more about Buffy than
> Faith. I really enjoy (in a scary way) Buffy sliding into Faith's mode of
> thinking. Buffy's like a kid discovering alcohol. She gets drunk on
> slaying and can't wait to rush back and do it again. Then the inevitable
> wreck and unbearable consequences that bring her up short - too late. When
> Faith says she doesn't care, that's kind of an intro to her terrible story
> that will take off next episode. But it's also a conclusion to Buffy's
> flirtation with Faith's wild side. There's a message there that the Faith
> option demands that you not care. Which Buffy could never do. And so the
> mirror that is Faith is smashed. Buffy can't be Faith. That's a real
> conclusion, even as the narrative moves to a Part II.
True, although there are other aspects of Buffy's potential to live up
to Faith's potential (i.e. as a killer) that'll be part of the
denouement of the season.
> The Mayor really takes off this episode. I don't think it's necessarily
> clear that he's the real deal big bad of the season until here. Not much
> doubt after he commences the 100 days with a dose of invincibility. Now
> he's genuinely formidable.
I'd still been thinking of Trick as the main foe; until now, it wasn't
clear to me who was the dominant one in their partnership. It makes
sense to learn that the writers hadn't been sure at first either. For
those who haven't seen the commentary, Doug Petrie tells the story of
the moment he started to "get" Wilkins (when he'd written a sarcastic
line for him about his meeting with the boy scouts or whatever, and
Joss told him 'no, no, no - he really does love doing events like
this, he does think that they're the backbone of America...'). This
episode is definitely when I figured out what a great character he is
too.
> > Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
> > Writer: Marti Noxon
>
> Noxon's best episode maybe?
Well, it's my favorite. So, yes.
-AOQ
David L. Burkhead
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the WC's main purpose is _not_
to fight demons and vampires, but to "ride herd" on the Slayer and keep her
from getting too "uppity." (How recently that came to be the "true" purose
is something I haven't decided yet.
I strongly suspect that the WC is a significant part of the reason that
Slayers have such a short life expectency.
David L. Burkhead
I was confused by the "This Year's Girl" reference until you mentioned below
that you meant "Bad Girls." Yeah, in "Bad Girls" Buffy flirted with the Dark
Side. That's not an uncommon phase for people to go through. However,
Buffy had a core of, well, morality--an idea that just because you want
something it's not right. And their different reactions to the killing of
the mayor's assistent really underscores the difference between them. I
want to call it a divergent point, but it's not really. They are already on
different paths from a lot farther back. It's just the mayor's assistent's
death marks a point where the divergence accelerates.
In many ways, Buffy and Faith mirror each other. Where Buffy worries about
becoming like Faith (causing Faith's accusations along those lines to
sting), Faith worries that others are _not_ like her (leading to her
constant "all men are beasts" and "you're just like me" diatribes--the
Slayer doth protest too much).
--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@sff.net "While we live, let us live."
One Bit Shy
news:Z6KdnTExdq1cuDnb...@giganews.com...
In S7 it's asserted that it's about the power. Along the way it is at least
implied, if not outright demonstrated, that the whole Slayer construct is
designed to control that power. A short life-span is a natural result of
that construct. And riding herd, as you put it, is part of the method.
On the other hand, it also seems clear that fighting vampires really was the
motive for creating the Slayer. It's an arguable point whether the demon
battle or the control of power has become the greater objective over time.
Buffy's epiphany not only breaks the control, but expands the power by
orders of magnitude. From her point of view, that control proves not only
to be morally wrong, but a practical error as well by virtue of limiting the
power too much. It is for an untold future to say what perils such power
uncontrolled might have. The WC attitude could be defended as them
harnessing a demon power that they dare not let run free.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> On Jul 21, 5:37 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1184891144....@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> I'm inclined to parallel the extended S6 story rather than only OMWF,
> because the reasons he gives in OMWF lead him to leave for England the
> next week.
It's not a precise match I know. I focused on OMWF because it has the part
where Giles leaves Buffy on her own, then regrets his choice and comes
running after. That behavior occurs other times too, though I'm not going
to try to identify when. I can say that it is mocked a little in The
Freshman. In any case, I think it starts in Helpless, setting up the
framework for the parallel.
The other part of the parallel is not being able to reconcile watcher duty
with fatherly love. I had forgotten how that was explicitly stated in
Helpless. I had previously thought that it must be implied in S6.
The underlying issue of Giles fearing that he's holding Buffy back isn't so
much a parallel as an ongoing and evolving attitude within Giles. Giles
doesn't even think that way in Helpless, though I believe that's what starts
his doubts. That bastard Travers planted the seed by emphasizing Buffy's
growth while Giles seeks to protect her.
In any case, the full picture surely does include Tabula Rasa. But I think
the crisis for Giles is still in OMWF.
> Really short on time right now, but for me the difference
> is that in "Helpless," Giles realizes what he's done wrong, and takes
> steps to correct it,
He runs after Buffy in OMWF too.
> and it's shown that he'll have to live with what
> he's done for a long time, and is ready to face it.
Yes, but Helpless is the start of Giles's path - a path that will
unavoidably include periods of great separation from Buffy and awkward
places where he can't be what Buffy needs. His thinking evolves a lot by
the time S6 rolls around and he convinces himself that he's done something
different wrong, and that living with that for a long time means him living
without Buffy. I believe the S6 departure is intended to be very painful
for him - perceived by Giles as a great sacrifice. I don't think the
depiction quite lives up to that - part of its awkwardness. But I still
think it's the intent.
> That's a
> satisfying character story with a beginning, middle, and
> continuation. Pat, maybe, but sometimes I want pat from my heroes.
I like the Helpless conclusion a lot better myself. It's one of the
greatest Giles episodes ever. I'm definitely not trying to put the S6
events on a comparable level. I'm just trying to give better sense to them.
Make me hate them a little less.
In any case, considering what comes up in S7, perhaps they didn't want Giles
to come off so well, and to leave the implications hanging.
> That's missing in S6; I don't think either the show or the character
> do enough to hold him accountable for abandoning Buffy, and it hurts
> the story a lot for me.
This is pretty speculative on my part, but the accountability could be his
inability to reconnect successfully with Buffy in S7. His departure may
have proved to be a more thorough divorce than either fully realized until
the big dust up in LMPTM. As you may recall, that episode was constructed
to parallel Revelations with Giles taking on Xander's role. Part of the
concept is for the events of that episode to be the culmination of attitudes
built up over an extended period. Perhaps the fracturing of trust between
them extends back to his S6 departure.
Whether there's an Amends equivalent can be debated. Things were too rushed
at the end of S7 to do justice to that and many other details. But there is
one huge difference between LMPTM and Revelations. Buffy and Xander were
humbled enough by the experience to at least agree on a cease fire. Quite
the opposite for Giles and Buffy in S7. Buffy closing the door on Giles
then had to be brutal for him.
So Giles did get payback eventually.
> Buffy wants a normal
> life, but she really doesn't want to give up her swank super-powers.
I like that description. People should use "swank" more often.
I sense her feelings go a little deeper than that, but it's still a valid
point. Being Slayer is her prom queen substitute after all.
>> I suppose that
>> it's not the big theme of this episode, but it still provides a lot of
>> foundation for the linkage between being The Slayer and love. That'll
>> get
>> more explicit in S5.
>
> INVISIBLE THEME
>
> (Sorry, someone's spent way too much time on
> http://icanhascheezeburger.com)
That redirects to some generic restaurant search site for me. Rats.
But, yeah. Invisible themes. My favorites. Heh.
> But the rest, not impressed. And I will forever fail
> to see how the Ozwolf being harder to subdue than in a normal episode
> is particularly interesting, or even a particularly nice touch.
Attention to detail. The logic is applied to the little things as well as
the big. I just get a kick out of seeing stuff like that.
You don't have to love the episode. And I'm not one of those calling it
great. I recognize that one has to endure stiff unnatural dialogue and a
variety of absudities to get through it.
>> For me, this episode is the peak of Faith as mirror to Buffy - the
>> possible
>> alternate identity for Buffy to adopt. As such it's more about Buffy
>> than
>> Faith. I really enjoy (in a scary way) Buffy sliding into Faith's mode
>> of
>> thinking. Buffy's like a kid discovering alcohol. She gets drunk on
>> slaying and can't wait to rush back and do it again. Then the inevitable
>> wreck and unbearable consequences that bring her up short - too late.
>> When
>> Faith says she doesn't care, that's kind of an intro to her terrible
>> story
>> that will take off next episode. But it's also a conclusion to Buffy's
>> flirtation with Faith's wild side. There's a message there that the
>> Faith
>> option demands that you not care. Which Buffy could never do. And so
>> the
>> mirror that is Faith is smashed. Buffy can't be Faith. That's a real
>> conclusion, even as the narrative moves to a Part II.
>
> True, although there are other aspects of Buffy's potential to live up
> to Faith's potential (i.e. as a killer) that'll be part of the
> denouement of the season.
Oh, sure. The seaon's narrative continues along. But I don't think that's
central to Consequences. That's Buffy's need for contrition vs. Faith's
flight from it. A battle for Faith's soul that Buffy loses. Faith lectures
Buffy something fierce, but I think it's really for her own benefit.
Working up the rationale.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1185159120....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I suppose that
> >> it's not the big theme of this episode, but it still provides a lot of
> >> foundation for the linkage between being The Slayer and love. That'll
> >> get
> >> more explicit in S5.
>
> > INVISIBLE THEME
>
> > (Sorry, someone's spent way too much time on
> >http://icanhascheezeburger.com)
>
> That redirects to some generic restaurant search site for me. Rats.
>
> But, yeah. Invisible themes. My favorites. Heh.
Cuz I typed the URL wrong. Should be http://icanhascheezburger.com/
(Nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion, just referencing where
the "INVISIBLE [whatever]" joke comes from.)
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
Oooh! I'm going to get on the right side of so many cat lovers when I pass
that URL on... Thanks!
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: These threads have a problem with mothers. They're aware
> of that.
> Season Three, Episode 12: "Helpless"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
> And now we move into probably my favorite stretch of the season. Re-
> watching, this falling out, even temporary, and re-defining of the
> relationship between Buffy and Giles feels inevitable, like that's the
> more than I should.
I agree with the latter (both the sympathy and there possibly being more
of it than there should be). But I struggle to buy Giles's role in
Helpless. As in fact I struggle to swallow the whole idea of the
Cruciamentum. It's too self-defeating to be believable if the Council is
sincerely trying to fight evil, but it doesn't make sense as an Council
plot to murder Slayers, either. And anyway, the evil-Council theory
doesn't really fit with what we see of them later in S5 and S7, where they
are shown to be wrongheaded but basically on the same side as the Slayer.
Which, in my opinion, makes for a more satisfying story. Other people
want to see shades of grey in vampires, I want to see them in Watchers!
... Getting back to Giles's part in the test, I could theoretically buy
him reluctantly doing it, but we should have seen signs of worry and
stress and guilt as Buffy's birthday approached. Even if a lifetime of
Watcher's training and indoctrination really could make Giles go along
with the test, it would have been very very hard for him. Keeping all his
emotional trauma all confined within this one episode does nothing to make
the Cruciamentum feel less like a contrived plot device. Showing him
fretting about something back in Lovers Walk or even just Gingerbread
would have helped make the contrivance go down a little easier.
So the centerpiece of this week's plot never really worked for me. But
that's okay, because the drama built around that centerpiece kicks ass.
I love the same things everyone else does: the Buffy-Angel scenes
(especially the one featuring Spordelia and the heart thing), the
emotional scene when Giles confesses to Buffy, villain of the week Kralik,
the final reconciliation and sacking scene, and so on. It's all very well
acted.
Did anyone else think that Angel hit the wrong note with his birthday gift
for Buffy, an old edition of _Sonnets from the Portuguese_? Buffy is
certainly not stupid, but she's never seemed to be much of a reader
either. A book of poetry seems a little intimidating to Buffy at a moment
when her self-confidence has just taken a major blow ... but I sometimes
wonder if her reaction would have been much different even if she wasn't
going through that particular crisis at the same time.
> Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
> disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it.
Especially when she's running for her life, screaming for help -- she's
not just weakened, she's in exactly the same situation that so many
ordinary girls and women face. I don't think we ever see that so
explicitly in the other variations on vulnerable-Buffy.
Random thought: I think this is the only definite clue we get about
Faith's exact age. She must be younger than Buffy, since the Council
hasn't tried the Cruciamentum on her yet.
I wonder if Buffy and the others told Joyce exactly what Giles had done,
or if they let her think that it was some random Council goon who stole
Bufffy's powers. It's hard to imagine Joyce forgiving the man who
*POISONED HER CHILD*, after all, yet I don't recall any tension between
her and Giles because of it later. This points to another problem -- the
final Buffy-Giles scene is the only explicit sign of reconciliation that
we see between them. Unless I'm forgetting something in a later episode?
> Rating: Excellent
I'll only go as far as Good, mainly because of my problems with the very
idea of the Cruciamentum.
> Season Three, Episode 13: "The Zeppo"
> Writer: Dan Vebber
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
.
> This is one that I was hoping to be able to upgrade to Good, knowing
> the conceit coming in. But as Mrs. Quality commented while watching,
> "this is such a BAD episode!" I wouldn't go that far, but Xander
> jumping around for the football is one of those moments that makes me
> want to jam screws into my eyes and ears, and the rest of the early
> going isn't a whole lot less painful.
I usually skip over the whole football part. It's both un-Xander (he'd
love to be popular, but rarely if ever tries to suck up to the jocks) and
un-funny (unlike most of the episode's last two acts).
I had pretty much the same OFV reaction that Wouter mentioned, finding the
whole pushing-Xander-aside plotline to be badly overdone and, as Burt
rightly points out, jarringly inconsistent with pretty much the whole
series so far. Much as I enjoyed some of the humor (how can you not love
the mailbox?) and drama (Faith), the episode as a whole kind of pissed me
off. I guess I feel a little protective towards Xander. He's not my
favorite character, but he probably has the highest individual product of
(amount of my affection for character) * (amount of disrespect character
gets from fans) * (amount writers are willing to twist character to make a
joke). And he lacks the ardent cult of defenders that certain other
characters have. So my first reaction was to be annoyed that poor Xander
was being written out of character for the sake of a few laughs.
The theory that The Zeppo is shown from Xander's distorted point of view
went a long way to reconciling me to that part of the episode. However,
I'd like to take that theory in a slightly different direction. A lot of
Xander's part in The Zeppo is not literally how Xander perceives the
world, even on a very down day. Instead, it's a symbolic representation
of how Xander *feels* about the world. For example, being given donut
duty and nothing else doesn't mean he really thinks that's all he does,
forgetting all the research and fighting he's done in the past; but it
symbolizes his doubts about how useful he is to the team. Same thing with
his repeatedly offering to help, only to be brushed off. This could even
apply to the annoying football scene at the beginning: trying to join the
jocks' game of catch isn't the kind of thing Xander would normally do, but
it symbolizes his secret, doomed wish to be more popular. These plot
elements are flatly inconsistent with what we've seen of Xander and his
friends in the past 46 episodes, but they're shown here as an insight into
Xander's emotional state. So, that's my theory. It makes The Zeppo a lot
easier to swallow for me.
> place for a viewer to be. The much vaunted gentle mockery of the
> series' conventions also falls flat until the very end, if only
> because the cheap unknown spirit doesn't seem as cheap on a low-budget
> show, and the Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
> ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends."
IMO the best part the gentle mockery is not the exaggeration of the usual
melodrama. There *is* a great deal of exaggeration, but what really makes
it work is that the whole A story is kept in the background, so that we
only see isolated snippets of BtVS's classic ... argh, what's the word?
Tropes? Motifs? Gimmicks? Whatever, we only isolated snippets of them,
without most of the context that usually surrounds them, making us realize
how often we see the same standard elements: the discovery of a looming
apocalypse, the research session, the teary Buffy-Angel scene, the
climactic battle and so on. And I don't know if this was deliberate on
ME's part or not, but this little parody shows us something else: the
standard tropes (or whatever) are really just the framework that episodes
are built on. The heart and soul of BtVS is not in them, but in the long
term development of the characters, the stuff that usually surrounds those
tropes.
> of the episode (Faith's interlude is the approximate dividing point,
> although a few last bits of lame stuff are afterward)
That has got to be one of the hottest humorous sex scenes I've ever seen.
"Just relax and take your pants off." "Those two concepts are
antithetical." (What a great unexpected term for Xander to use -- I'm
reminded of Jayne's "pretentious" in Shindig.) One great little detail is
that Faith actually seems to enjoy the afterglow, for a minute, before
kicking Xander out. This not only makes the out-kicking funnier, it also
shows us beyond doubt that Faith really is enjoying herself. She isn't
driven to joyless random sex by some psychological trauma. She chooses to
live the way she does because she likes it, traumatic background
notwithstanding. This fits in very well with what we see in the first
three quarters of Bad Girls.
Other random notes:
-AOQ questions why Ozwolf is harder to subdue than usual. The reason
given within the story is that the energy of the opening Hellmouth has him
more hyped up than he's ever been before. (Outside the story, the
writer's intent was surely to add to the exaggerated apocalyptic
atmosphere, as well as to provide a reason why Ozwolf is in the basement.)
-The zombies are a rather awkward mixture of high school jock and criminal
thug -- two flavors that certainly *could* go together, but really need a
little explanation. Perhaps this too is symbolic of Xander's attitude
about jocks?
-Willow's "I love you" reminds me more of Xander's in Becoming 2 than the
near-death situation in Lovers Walk, as it's ambiguous if the love in
question is just friendly love or if there might be a hint of something
else.
-The time bomb always reminds me of the one in _Galaxy Quest_, which stops
at 0:02 because that's what all bombs do, so far as its makers could tell.
-Shortly after TZ, Xander will be right back in the thick of researching
and fighting, with no hint that he was ever pushed aside.
> Rating: Decent
I'd give it a lowish Good.
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> Writer: Doug Petrie
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> This is good stuff.
Hell yeah. Really, if you don't mind its Part-Oneness, and you can
overlook Balthazar's rubber suit looking like a rubber suit, is there
anything about Bad Girls not to like?
> get a chance to play at being cool action heroes. If anyone tells you
> they immediately recognized Wesley's potential to end up going where
> the Buffyverse would take him, they're lying.
I wouldn't lie to you like that. Wesley's introduction is one of the few
times when being spoiled about future developments could improve your
first viewing. But now that you know how Wesley develops on AtS, can't
you really feel for the poor guy here? Raised by a hypercritical,
impossible-to-please father, having pushed himself throughout his
education to become the best Watcher he could, he finally gets the chance
to prove himself ... only to be greeted by blank hostility from both
Slayers. Of course he's a dork and will make many mistakes, but even
before that's evident, everyone is already biased against him. It's
actually kind of sad to see the hope drain out of him as first Buffy and
then Faith reject his greetings. Sorry, Wes, grownup life is going to be
just as unhappy as life with your father was.... I love this whole scene,
especially Buffy's mock-childish voice on "Whenever Giles sends me on a
mission he always says 'please.' And afterwards I get a cookie!" Giles's
expression as she says it, torn between wanting her to be polite and
sincere amusement, is great too.
Another great facial expression: Buffy reacting to Faith's "Tell me
staking a vamp doesn't get you a little bit juiced. Come on, say it."
So much to love about this episode, like the great transition from the
attack on the vampire nest to the dirty dancing at the Bronze. And
couldn't you just put the dancing on loop and watch it all day?
(Warning: Strobe lights will be in use. Not recommended for epileptics.)
The dance song is "Chinese Burn" by Curve; look up the lyrics. I also
love the insidiously ominous music during the store robbery scene, which
as soon as I started typing that got stuck in my head. However, one minor
flaw is that cop shooting into the ceiling to get their attention seems a
little too unprofessional even for the Sunnydale PD.
We see Faith return to Allan's body, in a nice little wordless scene, but
we don't see her decide to hide the body or go into denial. This works in
most ways, making her "I don't care" at the end a shock, but it would've
been nice to see her denial as it was still developing.
Speaking of Allan, there seems to be a little setup (and later hints in
Consequences) that Allan might have been planning to betray the Mayor to
Buffy, but the issue is left unresolved. Unless there was later something
definite that I'm forgetting?
> Rating: Good
I say Excellent. (But the next episode is even better.)
> Season Three, Episode 15: "Consequences"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> This is probably my favorite of Season Three, and probably in my top
> five or ten for the series.
Mine too, except for me it would probably only be top ten, not top five.
(There's a lot of very intense competition for those slots.)
> see a single hour of television that hits note after note this
> brilliantly, with every scene taking one in directions that are
> unexpected but make perfect sense in retrospect. The action never
> lets up, and the intensity is as high as it ever gets during the
> library double-crosses, Xander's evening with Faith, and her turn to
> the dark side.
Agreed on all these points. Even more than in Bad Girls, there's just not
much here that one could possibly not love. Even Wesley, while stupid, is
not *too* stupid or completely evil. He doesn't even try to stake Angel,
for instance, and after Faith escapes he admits his failure to Buffy and
Giles rather than calling the Council for help. Another good scene is the
conference on what to do about Faith. I like how the atmosphere shifts
from the four united in discussing Faith to Buffy, Willow and Giles
wondering what Xander's talking about to Buffy, Xander and Giles wondering
how Willow will react. Oh, and poor Willow's secret crying session. IMO
the part that pains Willow the most is not that Xander has lost his
virginity to someone else, it's exactly who that someone else was. First
he dates someone Willow considers a skanky ho, then he has sex with
another skanky ho, and both times kept it secret from her -- that hurt
both her ego and her hopes that her friend would find someone better than
that. I'm sure sheer possessiveness was also a factor, but if Xander had
gotten it on with someone Willow liked and respected, it probably wouldn't
have hurt Willow nearly as much.
On a lighter note, there's also the amusing scene where Wesley first meets
Cordy. His tongue-tied reaction when asked "What's your deal?" makes me
wonder if he had thought to create a cover story explaining his presence
there. (The _Sunnydale High Yearbook_ includes a picture of Wesley with
the caption "Who *is* this guy?" [Note: I only bought the yearbook used
for five bucks, lest anyone think I'm a big geek or something.])
> If I can love one thing even more intensely than
> anything else, it's the first significant (well, with dialogue,
> anyway) interaction between Faith and Angel. Separately they're just
> my two favorite Buffyverse characters, but together their scenes
> virtually never fail to be anything short of amazing. Spending this
> quality time with Faith arguably does more to define Angel as a
> character (and one worthy of a spin-off) than anything else we've seen
> this year, and lets us see with the benefit of hindsight why exactly
> he's going to be the one to save her from herself.
I didn't appreciate this part as much on first viewing, before I had
watched AtS. (Of course *nobody* had seen AtS when Consequences first
aired, so that probably says more about my slow wits than anything else.)
Now it's full of meaning. It's also one of the clearest instances of
ME using S3 to help set up the spinoff show.
> Rating: Excellent
Agreed.
> Additional comments on S3D4: Mrs. Q. and I watched Michael Gershman's
> commentary for "Consequences" with the help of some beer and drinking
> it whenever he mentioned something about the filming being "very
> difficult." Very mild hilarity ensued.
Great drinking games thread, anyone?
> Speaking of "Consequences," I'm not sure if Oz appears in this
> episode. I feel like someone else pointed out that he doesn't. The
> fact that this character's presence or absence does not register with
> me in any way makes me understand for the first time what Green is
> talking about in the S4 featurette when he says that Oz never really
> fit in as a main cast member, and how he wishes he could've stayed a
> semi-regular.
Mmm. I can't remember what he says in that featurette, but he also goes
into it in an interview with the actors' trade paper _Backstage_, in a
2006 issue that I rescued from work. He mentions that the overall S3
didn't have much room for Oz stories (not sure I agree with that part --
they could have done something with Oz's post-graduation plans, or lack
thereof). But since he had become a regular, the writers always had to
fit him in somewhere, even if just to utter a few lines in a group scene.
And Green was working on another show at the same time, so he found
himself working almost around the clock just to have a couple of brief
appearances in every BtVS episode. (Except Consequences.) It just wasn't
worth it to him, even though he thought the show itself was great.
> Maybe well-adjusted characters just don't mesh with Whedonverse
> shows?
Maybe not. But I have to wonder if anyone could stay well-adjusted after
going through everything Buffy and friends go through.
--Chris,
late as usual
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Michael Ikeda
Did not say "capable". I was just objecting to "completely
incompetent".
(And the problem, to the extent that it's Wesley's fault, is more
inexperience than anything else.)
I'd also say that the WC put Wesley in basically an impossible
position. With the possible exception of Sam Zabuto, any Watcher
sent to replace Giles would have extreme difficulty being anything
more than a barely tolerated assistant to Giles.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
hmmmmmmmm
maybe that was the intention
One Bit Shy
news:13aa4nk...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> It's too self-defeating to be believable if the Council is
> sincerely trying to fight evil, but it doesn't make sense as an Council
> plot to murder Slayers, either.
I'm a lot more OK with the test than you. I'm curious how you see it as
self-defeating. My approach doesn't really get there.
I doubt they're trying to murder Slayers, but I don't think they'd be much
concerned about the risk of death either. The Slayer construct assures a
perpetual supply. They might accept the inevitable periodic Slayer death in
this test as simply weeding out the weaker Slayers and then quickly moving
on to the next. I tend to accept the more or less stated intent to "test"
The Slayer. Both in the sense of finding out what she's made of and
advancing her abilities through ordeal.
The coincident test of the watcher would be important too. I imagine its
aim is to assure that the man in the field is adequately ruthless in pursuit
of WC aims. Ruthless would be the overall watchword for the exercise, and
the dominant characteristic of the WC as presented here. I believe that
would be consistent with the S7 emphasis on power and control where The
Slayer is symbolically and literally chained to watcher authority. The
watcher's first job may be to hold the reins tightly. That would support
the underlying issue of the S5 encounter - that the WC has no power without
The Slayer.
The test itself is more than a thousand years old. (I forget offhand how
much more.) As I imagine it at its inception, the normal circumstances for
a Slayer would be terribly harsh. A mean and cruel world around her. And
an isolated beyond Spartan personal life style dominated by one harsh task
master. I suspect the ruthlessness of the exercise would feel a whole lot
more par for the course than it does for Buffy. And I suspect that survival
would feel a whole lot more like triumph than it does for Buffy.
For the WC to be so hidebound by ancient tradition would seem problematic on
the face of it. But in a series that routinely uses cross bows and swords
as weapons, I'm not sure that the WC deserves to be singled out for that
criticism.
More to the point, the WC represents society's patriarchal tradition - one
that is intended to be seen as a pointless relic of an ancient past. Buffy
is the focal point of change. It is through her that the cruel abuse of the
Cruciamentum is laid bare. Just as it's through her that the tyranny of the
WC is broken - representing empowerment breaking the tyranny of patriarchy.
(BtVS usually is reasonably restrained with its feminist message -
emphasizing the monster story and character impact over the preaching. But
it's still there. And the WC as patriarchy is one of the strongest
allegorical relationships.)
Where I think the WC concept seriously falters is in the arrival of Wesley -
even though he personally is a good character. The savvy ruthlessness of
Travers that we see this episode is what is conspicuously absent in Wesley.
At a critical point in their relationship with their Slayer charges - not
one, but two Slayers - both with watcher issues that could make them hostile
to the WC - they send a wet behind the ears goof. The palpable sense of
power that Travers exudes this episode is instantly lost and never
recovered.
> Did anyone else think that Angel hit the wrong note with his birthday gift
> for Buffy, an old edition of _Sonnets from the Portuguese_? Buffy is
> certainly not stupid, but she's never seemed to be much of a reader
> either. A book of poetry seems a little intimidating to Buffy at a moment
> when her self-confidence has just taken a major blow ... but I sometimes
> wonder if her reaction would have been much different even if she wasn't
> going through that particular crisis at the same time.
I thought it was... odd. Didn't quite work for me, though it didn't impede
much either. I generally write it off as Angel not knowing how to do gifts.
He may have tried to draw on what he remembered of gift giving in his human
days over two centuries before. Perhaps that's what the guys he knew gave
their lady friends back then. (I'm guessing he never had a serious enough
girlfriend to do so himself.)
>> Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
>> disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it.
>
> Especially when she's running for her life,
Compare her running style here with how she ran back in The Harvest. Hey,
it's the same! Heh. Well, let's just say she's a much better Slayer now.
> This points to another problem -- the
> final Buffy-Giles scene is the only explicit sign of reconciliation that
> we see between them. Unless I'm forgetting something in a later episode?
Buffy: (to Giles) I don't know how you managed. (he looks up at her) It was
the bravest thing I've ever seen.
OK, Ok. That's Zeppo talk. But I think events took over. First they had
to save the world. Then a new watcher comes to town. On the one hand
they're busy being thrust into working together to common ends. There's a
natural reconciliation built into the deeds. And of course there's Buffy's
relief in Consequences when Giles so certainly believed in her rather than
Faith. I'm sure that went a long way to reconciling.
On the other hand they probably can't fully reconcile. The thing that's
always united the two has been sundered. Giles isn't Buffy's watcher
anymore. That fact just hovers in the background through the remainder of
the season. And a big relationship change occurs as Buffy gradually becomes
very much the one in charge.
> The theory that The Zeppo is shown from Xander's distorted point of view
> went a long way to reconciling me to that part of the episode. However,
> I'd like to take that theory in a slightly different direction. A lot of
> Xander's part in The Zeppo is not literally how Xander perceives the
> world, even on a very down day. Instead, it's a symbolic representation
> of how Xander *feels* about the world.
That sounds good to me. Though I'd be inclined to include both
perspectives. I doubt the concept was so rigidly constructed that the
writers wouldn't naturally touch on both.
>> place for a viewer to be. The much vaunted gentle mockery of the
>> series' conventions also falls flat until the very end, if only
>> because the cheap unknown spirit doesn't seem as cheap on a low-budget
>> show, and the Buffy/Angel exchanges are no more melodramatic than the
>> ones we were expected to take seriously in "Amends."
>
> IMO the best part the gentle mockery is not the exaggeration of the usual
> melodrama. There *is* a great deal of exaggeration, but what really makes
> it work is that the whole A story is kept in the background, so that we
> only see isolated snippets of BtVS's classic ... argh, what's the word?
> Tropes? Motifs? Gimmicks? Whatever, we only isolated snippets of them,
> without most of the context that usually surrounds them, making us realize
> how often we see the same standard elements: the discovery of a looming
> apocalypse, the research session, the teary Buffy-Angel scene, the
> climactic battle and so on. And I don't know if this was deliberate on
> ME's part or not, but this little parody shows us something else: the
> standard tropes (or whatever) are really just the framework that episodes
> are built on. The heart and soul of BtVS is not in them, but in the long
> term development of the characters, the stuff that usually surrounds those
> tropes.
I like that. Every examination seems to make me appreciate the construction
more. But it's still a mechanistic appreciation. The downside of that
presentation is that by showing that's not where the heart and soul is,
you've got to take out the heart and soul. They saved the world, but we
don't care.
I think that prevents it from ever being a truly great episode.
>> of the episode (Faith's interlude is the approximate dividing point,
>> although a few last bits of lame stuff are afterward)
>
> That has got to be one of the hottest humorous sex scenes I've ever seen.
> "Just relax and take your pants off." "Those two concepts are
> antithetical." (What a great unexpected term for Xander to use -- I'm
> reminded of Jayne's "pretentious" in Shindig.) One great little detail is
> that Faith actually seems to enjoy the afterglow, for a minute, before
> kicking Xander out. This not only makes the out-kicking funnier, it also
> shows us beyond doubt that Faith really is enjoying herself. She isn't
> driven to joyless random sex by some psychological trauma. She chooses to
> live the way she does because she likes it, traumatic background
> notwithstanding. This fits in very well with what we see in the first
> three quarters of Bad Girls.
I'm personally of the opinion that Faith pumping Buffy about Xander the next
episode has to be because she's actually thinking about him after. Not
quite the use 'em and lose 'em attitude she affects. In other words,
Xander's sense of connection isn't entirely wrong. Not enough connection to
even come close to overriding Faith's mental state in Consequences. But
still real.
> -Shortly after TZ, Xander will be right back in the thick of researching
> and fighting, with no hint that he was ever pushed aside.
But Xander's insight and potential probably had been at least somewhat under
recognized by both his friends and himself. For example, in the prior
episode, Helpless, you have the kryptonite sequence between him and Oz.
It's amusing, but what's lost is that his different way of looking at
Buffy's problem was close to dead on - just couched in comic book terms.
Nobody got around to thinking about his idea.
And look at the way he's dismissed when he proposes going to Faith. It
turns out not to have been a good idea (though it does lead to Angel's
intervention), but it's still a bigger personal opening than anyone else has
offered. It deserved fairer hearing than it got.
> Hell yeah. Really, if you don't mind its Part-Oneness, and you can
> overlook Balthazar's rubber suit looking like a rubber suit,
Yeah, I wish it didn't look so rubbery. But otherwise I think it's a really
cool look and concept. One of the better MOTW IMO.
> Speaking of Allan, there seems to be a little setup (and later hints in
> Consequences) that Allan might have been planning to betray the Mayor to
> Buffy, but the issue is left unresolved. Unless there was later something
> definite that I'm forgetting?
I think it's ambiguous because there's also some hinting that he might have
been helping Balthazar. Balthazar and the slayers are close together at
that point, so he might have been looking for either. Or maybe he was
prepared to help anyone combat the Mayor. I don't think we'll ever know for
sure.
> Oh, and poor Willow's secret crying session. IMO
> the part that pains Willow the most is not that Xander has lost his
> virginity to someone else, it's exactly who that someone else was. First
> he dates someone Willow considers a skanky ho, then he has sex with
> another skanky ho, and both times kept it secret from her -- that hurt
> both her ego and her hopes that her friend would find someone better than
> that. I'm sure sheer possessiveness was also a factor, but if Xander had
> gotten it on with someone Willow liked and respected, it probably wouldn't
> have hurt Willow nearly as much.
I don't think that's enough to make her weep. I think she has to feel
somehow wounded herself too. And notice the song lyrics in the background:
-- Disappointment stops by from time to time to see how I'm doing
-- And he came by last night right after you left my life in ruin
-- When I don't get what I want the spoiled child inside breaks down
OBS
David L. Burkhead
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:13aa4nk...@corp.supernews.com...
>> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> It's too self-defeating to be believable if the Council is
>> sincerely trying to fight evil, but it doesn't make sense as an
>> Council plot to murder Slayers, either.
>
> I'm a lot more OK with the test than you. I'm curious how you see it
> as self-defeating. My approach doesn't really get there.
The problem with the test--leaving aside its abject cruelty--is that it
accomplishes nothing. Quentin's monologue about a Slayer needs to be
cunning, etc. sounds all noble and such, but what does a test to destruction
of those characteristics really accomplish? If the Slayer has them in
sufficient quantity, she survives the test ("sufficient quantity", of
course, being defined as "enough to survive the test), but then she has them
whether she's put through the test or not. If she doesn't, she dies. But
then, if she really is inadequate, she'll die soon enough in the field--and
may take down quite a few vamps along the way before that happens. Then
again, maybe she'll develop those qualities with more experience and
seasoning.
The test just makes no sense. Now, it's not at all inconsistent with
the kinds of "tests" done at the tests inception. One need only to look at
some of the tests for "witches" of a much more recent vintage to see that.
However, continuing the test in the modern day with only appeal to tradition
and some vague assurances that "she'll be stronger for it" merely
underscores how hidebound and out of touch the WC is.
> I doubt they're trying to murder Slayers, but I don't think they'd be
> much concerned about the risk of death either. The Slayer construct
> assures a perpetual supply. They might accept the inevitable
> periodic Slayer death in this test as simply weeding out the weaker
> Slayers and then quickly moving on to the next. I tend to accept the
> more or less stated intent to "test" The Slayer. Both in the sense
> of finding out what she's made of and advancing her abilities through
> ordeal.
I would word that slightly differently. Instead of "test" I'd say
"cull." And no one test is really going to assess "what she's made of." As
for "advancing her abilities through ordeal" that's the "throw them in and
hope they float" approach to training. While it might produce a few good
swimmers, it also produces a lot of people who are deathly afraid of the
water. And if you didn't allow rescue (which this test doesn't) you also
end up with a lot of people who drown--maybe someone who would have been an
Olympic medalist if you had taken a more supportive approach.
> The coincident test of the watcher would be important too. I imagine
> its aim is to assure that the man in the field is adequately ruthless
> in pursuit of WC aims. Ruthless would be the overall watchword for
> the exercise, and the dominant characteristic of the WC as presented
> here. I believe that would be consistent with the S7 emphasis on
> power and control where The Slayer is symbolically and literally
> chained to watcher authority. The watcher's first job may be to hold
> the reins tightly. That would support the underlying issue of the S5
> encounter - that the WC has no power without The Slayer.
I think S7 shows us quite well what the pre-Buffy intended relationship
between Slayer and WC was: the First Slayer wasn't a volunteer. Wasn't
even a member of the community. She was a prisoner, chained and forced
against her will to take on the roll.
> The test itself is more than a thousand years old. (I forget offhand
> how much more.) As I imagine it at its inception, the normal
> circumstances for a Slayer would be terribly harsh. A mean and cruel
> world around her. And an isolated beyond Spartan personal life style
> dominated by one harsh task master. I suspect the ruthlessness of
> the exercise would feel a whole lot more par for the course than it
> does for Buffy. And I suspect that survival would feel a whole lot
> more like triumph than it does for Buffy.
Well, in a society where one tests whether someone is a witch by tying
them up and throwing them into a lake--if they float, they're a witch and
are therefore executed. If they sink, and therefore drown, they're
innocent--it probably would seem like par for the course. The world has
moved on. The WC hasn't.
> For the WC to be so hidebound by ancient tradition would seem
> problematic on the face of it. But in a series that routinely uses
> cross bows and swords as weapons, I'm not sure that the WC deserves
> to be singled out for that criticism.
Some years back I was involved in paper and pencil RPG's. A local
gamemaster was starting a modern vampire game where the setting was local
and the characters were based on the players.
As soon as I knew the score, I started thinking. I had a small
revolver--I never used it and only had it since a friend gave it too me when
he entered the military, but I had it--and quickly described using reloading
equipment and light powder loads and bullets handcrafted out of wood. A
six-shot ranged staker. The super-soaker filled with holy water was
obvious. And so on.
You have to ignore a lot of what the modern world has learned both in
terms of technology and approaches to problem solving for vampire stories to
work in the modern day.
> More to the point, the WC represents society's patriarchal tradition
> - one that is intended to be seen as a pointless relic of an ancient
> past. Buffy is the focal point of change. It is through her that
> the cruel abuse of the Cruciamentum is laid bare. Just as it's
> through her that the tyranny of the WC is broken - representing
> empowerment breaking the tyranny of patriarchy. (BtVS usually is
> reasonably restrained with its feminist message - emphasizing the
> monster story and character impact over the preaching. But it's
> still there. And the WC as patriarchy is one of the strongest
> allegorical relationships.)
A lot to agree with here, but I'll have to think on it more.
> Where I think the WC concept seriously falters is in the arrival of
> Wesley - even though he personally is a good character. The savvy
> ruthlessness of Travers that we see this episode is what is
> conspicuously absent in Wesley. At a critical point in their
> relationship with their Slayer charges - not one, but two Slayers -
> both with watcher issues that could make them hostile to the WC -
> they send a wet behind the ears goof. The palpable sense of power
> that Travers exudes this episode is instantly lost and never
> recovered.
The other Watchers we've seen or heard about is what makes me think that
the current "hardline" approach epitomized by Quentin may be new and may, in
fact, be Quentin putting his stamp on those in his immediate circle. That
said, I think Quentin's assignment of Wesley was an error. Quentin's intent
may have been to send a stuffy, stickler for the established order who is
sufficiently full of himself to stay behind the scenes and dictate to the
Slayers how things should be. What he got was the "wet behind the ears
goof" who screws up (and knows he screwed up) badly almost right out of the
gate, who gets pulled into "field action" and folds so fast that he can't
even really deceive himself that he wasn't completely out of his depth, and
thus cannot be the aloof order-giver that Quentin may have wanted.
This, of course, is all pure speculation, but fun speculation. ;)
>> Did anyone else think that Angel hit the wrong note with his
>> birthday gift for Buffy, an old edition of _Sonnets from the
>> Portuguese_? Buffy is certainly not stupid, but she's never seemed
>> to be much of a reader either. A book of poetry seems a little
>> intimidating to Buffy at a moment when her self-confidence has just
>> taken a major blow ... but I sometimes wonder if her reaction would
>> have been much different even if she wasn't going through that
>> particular crisis at the same time.
>
> I thought it was... odd. Didn't quite work for me, though it didn't
> impede much either. I generally write it off as Angel not knowing
> how to do gifts. He may have tried to draw on what he remembered of
> gift giving in his human days over two centuries before. Perhaps
> that's what the guys he knew gave their lady friends back then. (I'm
> guessing he never had a serious enough girlfriend to do so himself.)
Well, look at the last gift we saw Angel/Angelus give--a still-warm
heart that he found in a cute little shop...girl.
>>> Seeing Buffy so vulnerable is perhaps more
>>> disturbing here than any of the series' other variations on it.
>>
>> Especially when she's running for her life,
>
> Compare her running style here with how she ran back in The Harvest.
> Hey, it's the same! Heh. Well, let's just say she's a much better
> Slayer now.
SMG just can't run.
>> This points to another problem -- the
>> final Buffy-Giles scene is the only explicit sign of reconciliation
>> that we see between them. Unless I'm forgetting something in a
>> later episode?
>
> Buffy: (to Giles) I don't know how you managed. (he looks up at her)
> It was the bravest thing I've ever seen.
>
> OK, Ok. That's Zeppo talk. But I think events took over. First
> they had to save the world. Then a new watcher comes to town. On
> the one hand they're busy being thrust into working together to
> common ends. There's a natural reconciliation built into the deeds.
> And of course there's Buffy's relief in Consequences when Giles so
> certainly believed in her rather than Faith. I'm sure that went a
> long way to reconciling.
>
> On the other hand they probably can't fully reconcile. The thing
> that's always united the two has been sundered. Giles isn't Buffy's
> watcher anymore. That fact just hovers in the background through the
> remainder of the season. And a big relationship change occurs as
> Buffy gradually becomes very much the one in charge.
A lot of things apparently happen off-screen or between episodes that I
really wish were shown. (Case in point, Buffy talking to Angel about why she
had to kill him even though he'd been "cured").
>> The theory that The Zeppo is shown from Xander's distorted point of
>> view went a long way to reconciling me to that part of the episode.
>> However, I'd like to take that theory in a slightly different
>> direction. A lot of Xander's part in The Zeppo is not literally how
>> Xander perceives the world, even on a very down day. Instead, it's
>> a symbolic representation of how Xander *feels* about the world.
>
> That sounds good to me. Though I'd be inclined to include both
> perspectives. I doubt the concept was so rigidly constructed that the
> writers wouldn't naturally touch on both.
I just chalk it up to toxic waste from the Hellmouth leaking into the
water supply.
In fact, I think the "connection" might make things worse. Someone from
a more neutral perspective, with whom there is less emotional tie, would
probably have been a better person to approach Faith.
>> -Shortly after TZ, Xander will be right back in the thick of
>> researching and fighting, with no hint that he was ever pushed aside.
>
> But Xander's insight and potential probably had been at least
> somewhat under recognized by both his friends and himself. For
> example, in the prior episode, Helpless, you have the kryptonite
> sequence between him and Oz. It's amusing, but what's lost is that
> his different way of looking at Buffy's problem was close to dead on
> - just couched in comic book terms. Nobody got around to thinking
> about his idea.
>
> And look at the way he's dismissed when he proposes going to Faith.
> It turns out not to have been a good idea (though it does lead to
> Angel's intervention), but it's still a bigger personal opening than
> anyone else has offered. It deserved fairer hearing than it got.
It might have if it hadn't been for the sudden "dime drop" of _why_
Xander thought he had a "connection." That bit of surprise could well have
overshadowed any rational consideration of his suggestion.
>> Hell yeah. Really, if you don't mind its Part-Oneness, and you can
>> overlook Balthazar's rubber suit looking like a rubber suit,
>
> Yeah, I wish it didn't look so rubbery. But otherwise I think it's a
> really cool look and concept. One of the better MOTW IMO.
As the Japanese say "juu nin, to iro" (ten people, ten colors). I
didn't care for Balthazar or his henchvamps.
>> Speaking of Allan, there seems to be a little setup (and later hints
>> in Consequences) that Allan might have been planning to betray the
>> Mayor to Buffy, but the issue is left unresolved. Unless there was
>> later something definite that I'm forgetting?
>
> I think it's ambiguous because there's also some hinting that he
> might have been helping Balthazar. Balthazar and the slayers are
> close together at that point, so he might have been looking for
> either. Or maybe he was prepared to help anyone combat the Mayor. I
> don't think we'll ever know for sure.
>
>
>
>> Oh, and poor Willow's secret crying session. IMO
>> the part that pains Willow the most is not that Xander has lost his
>> virginity to someone else, it's exactly who that someone else was.
>> First he dates someone Willow considers a skanky ho, then he has sex
>> with another skanky ho, and both times kept it secret from her --
>> that hurt both her ego and her hopes that her friend would find
>> someone better than that. I'm sure sheer possessiveness was also a
>> factor, but if Xander had gotten it on with someone Willow liked and
>> respected, it probably wouldn't have hurt Willow nearly as much.
>
> I don't think that's enough to make her weep. I think she has to feel
> somehow wounded herself too. And notice the song lyrics in the
> background:
I don't think its any one thing. I think it's a bunch of things
together. And one of the things that I don't recall being mentioned is that
this marks a form of breakup not between Willow and a former unrequited
love, but between Willow and her childhood friend. It will no longer be
Xander and Willow, bestest friends forever, quite the same way again. It's
a kind of loss of innocence.
> -- Disappointment stops by from time to time to see how I'm doing
> -- And he came by last night right after you left my life in ruin
> -- When I don't get what I want the spoiled child inside breaks down
--
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>> news:13aa4nk...@corp.supernews.com...
>>> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>> wrote:
> I would word that slightly differently. Instead of "test" I'd say
> "cull." And no one test is really going to assess "what she's made of."
> As
> for "advancing her abilities through ordeal" that's the "throw them in and
> hope they float" approach to training.
Of course we'll never know the true intent, but I tend to think of the
culling as an acceptable, even useful, side effect rather than the primary
purpose. Incidentally, for the purposes of the story, I think it should be
taken as implicit that the Council has reason to believe the test has
value - based on the thousands of years of experience. If it always turns
out bad, then even the WC would do something different. So something
perceived of as good must be a normal outcome.
As for what she's made of, they're looking at a fairly narrow range. To
survive this long it's probably already accepted that her normal Slayer
powered and watcher trained skills are adequate. Strength, courage,
technique and so on. (Besides, in S5 we learn that they have other tests
available for that kind of thing should they deem it necessary.) Here
they're looking more outside the box - searching for creativity, how she
deals with completely unfamiliar circumstances, and determining if she will
crumble in the face of the seemingly hopeless. I suspect most of all they
want to find out if she uses her Slayer ability as a tool or a crutch.
I'm sure nobody believes it's a definitive test. It's so crude that both
good and bad luck must regularly intrude. But it is an opportunity to
observe a defined condition. A lot of useful information could come from
it. While they notified Buffy of the results in a pass/fail context, I
would expect a more nuanced review to occur in the background. Wesley
should be briefed on the results of that review, hopefully aimed at defining
how best to use Buffy - and to further train her.
Another possibility is that they're using the extremity of the test to help
determine if they have a truly unusual Slayer. A superstar among Slayers.
(Which Buffy actually is by the standards of this universe.) That cold have
a profound impact on how they intend to use her. Lesser Slayers might be
left in standard defensive mode. But a great one could be targeted against
something bigger. Go on the offense as it were.
As for trial by ordeal, putting someone into a situation beyond their
previously understood limits is a well recognized way of extending those
limits. She may very well have had the capability all along, but this
demonstrates it to her, and in so doing gets her to actually utilize that
capability. Without the test she could continue on acting below her
capacity. Furthermore, the throw them in and hope they float analogy
doesn't really hold. Buffy isn't actually helpless. She's just denied one
set of tools. She still has others. She knows a lot about vampires and how
to defeat them. We see her equip herself effectively with that in mind.
And she's seen her friends - people without Slayer powers - fight vampires
effectively at her side. She even knows that they have succeeded without
her help at all. Going into that house without her Slayer powers is not a
hopeless venture, merely more difficult than she has grown accustomed to.
> Well, in a society where one tests whether someone is a witch by tying
> them up and throwing them into a lake--if they float, they're a witch and
> are therefore executed. If they sink, and therefore drown, they're
> innocent--it probably would seem like par for the course. The world has
> moved on. The WC hasn't.
That the WC is stuck in its ways is, I believe, one of the conclusions we
are supposed to draw. Indeed, it's one of the few good reasons for their
ineffectiveness and foolishness in future episodes.
> You have to ignore a lot of what the modern world has learned both in
> terms of technology and approaches to problem solving for vampire stories
> to
> work in the modern day.
Yeah, the BtVS construct could never bear full scrutiny. "Suspension of
disbelief" was created for stuff like that. Just try to ignore the man
behind the curtain.
> The other Watchers we've seen or heard about is what makes me think
> that
> the current "hardline" approach epitomized by Quentin may be new and may,
> in
> fact, be Quentin putting his stamp on those in his immediate circle. That
> said, I think Quentin's assignment of Wesley was an error. Quentin's
> intent
> may have been to send a stuffy, stickler for the established order who is
> sufficiently full of himself to stay behind the scenes and dictate to the
> Slayers how things should be. What he got was the "wet behind the ears
> goof" who screws up (and knows he screwed up) badly almost right out of
> the
> gate, who gets pulled into "field action" and folds so fast that he can't
> even really deceive himself that he wasn't completely out of his depth,
> and
> thus cannot be the aloof order-giver that Quentin may have wanted.
>
> This, of course, is all pure speculation, but fun speculation. ;)
It's an interesting idea - well worthy of fanfic.
There is, however, the example of Gwendolyn Post - the other watcher we've
actually seen. Granted, she's disgraced. But she was still the real deal
once and evidences the kind of cool competence and steely determination so
absent in Wesley. So, it shouldn't be impossible.
On the other hand, I suppose she could be built into your concept as one of
Quentin's protégés. A kind of cautionary tale of his reign. (Incidentally,
why oh why didn't Travers get fired himself after all the fiascos under his
leadership? The ultimate statement of WC incompetence is that he's still in
charge come S7.)
> Well, look at the last gift we saw Angel/Angelus give--a still-warm
> heart that he found in a cute little shop...girl.
Hey, Angel will get Buffy a demon's heart in just a couple of episodes!
And, you know, it was a lot more appreciated than the poems. Proof that
Angel should stick to what he knows. Heh.
>> Compare her running style here with how she ran back in The Harvest.
>> Hey, it's the same! Heh. Well, let's just say she's a much better
>> Slayer now.
>
> SMG just can't run.
Perhaps. She never seems to be moving as fast as she really ought to. But
she did adjust her style to at least look more athletic.
> I just chalk it up to toxic waste from the Hellmouth leaking into the
> water supply.
I've found that you pretty much can never go wrong by blaming something on
the Hellmouth. I call it the Sunnydale effect. Anytime something doesn't
make sense, just call it another metaphor built out of the Sunnydale effect.
> I don't think its any one thing. I think it's a bunch of things
> together. And one of the things that I don't recall being mentioned is
> that
> this marks a form of breakup not between Willow and a former unrequited
> love, but between Willow and her childhood friend. It will no longer be
> Xander and Willow, bestest friends forever, quite the same way again.
> It's
> a kind of loss of innocence.
I agree that multiple influences are at work. And that's a good one.
Willow sure is driven by a lot of deep seated desires and anxieties isn't
she.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> "cull." And no one test is really going to assess "what she's made of." As
> for "advancing her abilities through ordeal" that's the "throw them in and
> hope they float" approach to training. While it might produce a few good
> swimmers, it also produces a lot of people who are deathly afraid of the
> water. And if you didn't allow rescue (which this test doesn't) you also
> end up with a lot of people who drown--maybe someone who would have been an
> Olympic medalist if you had taken a more supportive approach.
typically a girl had been slayer for three to five years by her eighteenth
if she hasnt learned by then perhaps the best odds are to start with a new slayer
and not waste resources on the current one
remember that not only is there endless supply of slayers
but you are stuck with the current slayer until she dies
if the current slayer is incompetent or crippled or inadequarte
you can see if the next slayer is any better
people are quite capable of cruel brutal decisions
when they are convinced the decisions are necessary
also
- i did what any good watcher would do
got my slater killed in the line of duty
giles is being sarcastic but this is what watchers actually do
its what he did twice to buffy
travers says the test is of the slayer and the watcher
they need watchers who are willing to make brutal decisions
without restraints about cruelty
we also see that when giles murders ben
ben wasnt bad enough to deserve an execution
yet doing so giles probably saved the lives of hundreds or millions of people
who knows
a sufficiently vindictive glory might decide to kill everyone
(which makes you a god)
the balance is one dirty little murder of a slightly tainted man
against an entire planet of humanity
> I think S7 shows us quite well what the pre-Buffy intended relationship
> between Slayer and WC was: the First Slayer wasn't a volunteer. Wasn't
> even a member of the community. She was a prisoner, chained and forced
> against her will to take on the roll.
- They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,
where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,
neglected and selected.
give people sufficient motivation and they can do quite nasty things
people joined ssa knowing full well what was going to happen
to those healthy fit and able young men
and they did it convinced it was vital for the wider community
i really have no problem understanding this
> As soon as I knew the score, I started thinking. I had a small
> revolver--I never used it and only had it since a friend gave it too me when
> he entered the military, but I had it--and quickly described using reloading
> equipment and light powder loads and bullets handcrafted out of wood. A
> six-shot ranged staker. The super-soaker filled with holy water was
> obvious. And so on.
originally real life people would open the coffin of a suspected vampire
and then drive a stake through the heart to nail them to the coffin
so they could no longer walk about
whedon deliberately avoided technological advances
because it made killing vampires and demons more difficult
if you want a slayer with firearms
you get blade
> > Where I think the WC concept seriously falters is in the arrival of
> > Wesley - even though he personally is a good character. The savvy
> > ruthlessness of Travers that we see this episode is what is
> > conspicuously absent in Wesley. At a critical point in their
> > relationship with their Slayer charges - not one, but two Slayers -
rewatch welcome to the hellmouth
giles is a real prat until he gets experienced
its strongly suggested later that watcher only watches one slayer
and after she dies the emotional strain great enough
the watcher is fairly useless thereafter
if so it means every slayer gets a watcher with little or no practical experience
some like giles grow up quickly
others like wesley still take quite a few years more and their neck cut
> Slayers how things should be. What he got was the "wet behind the ears
> goof" who screws up (and knows he screwed up) badly almost right out of the
> gate, who gets pulled into "field action" and folds so fast that he can't
> even really deceive himself that he wasn't completely out of his depth, and
> thus cannot be the aloof order-giver that Quentin may have wanted.
into every generation is born a hundred watchers
when one watcher dies
england ships another to replace her
at some point practice meets theory
(and wesley does have theory down pat)
and you get to see if the watcher has got what it takes
if not they get killed
a memorial service in old blighty
and they ship another
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
we also see it in assimilated dad of wesley
family issues aside wesley accepted everything he said
as reflecting the long held traditions of the watchers
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-48CA3...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > I would word that slightly differently. Instead of "test" I'd say
> > "cull." And no one test is really going to assess "what she's made of." As
> > for "advancing her abilities through ordeal" that's the "throw them in and
> > hope they float" approach to training. While it might produce a few good
> > swimmers, it also produces a lot of people who are deathly afraid of the
> > water. And if you didn't allow rescue (which this test doesn't) you also
> > end up with a lot of people who drown--maybe someone who would have been an
> > Olympic medalist if you had taken a more supportive approach.
>
> typically a girl had been slayer for three to five years by her eighteenth
> if she hasnt learned by then perhaps the best odds are to start with a new
> slayer
> and not waste resources on the current one
Unless the Slayer is actively *avoiding* fights, she's got a few years
experience surviving in the fight against the demons. That will tell
the Council a lot more about her abilities than any silly test. If she
is avoiding fights, then they should know, and they can assassinate her.
>
> remember that not only is there endless supply of slayers
> but you are stuck with the current slayer until she dies
> if the current slayer is incompetent or crippled or inadequarte
> you can see if the next slayer is any better
The incompetent ones eliminate themselves. Crippled Slayers become easy
prey for the monsters, or can be eliminated directly. No need for a test.
> people are quite capable of cruel brutal decisions
> when they are convinced the decisions are necessary
>
> also
> - i did what any good watcher would do
> got my slater killed in the line of duty
> giles is being sarcastic but this is what watchers actually do
> its what he did twice to buffy
>
> travers says the test is of the slayer and the watcher
> they need watchers who are willing to make brutal decisions
> without restraints about cruelty
It was a decision to betray his Slayer, for the sake of a pointless
test, not a strategic necessity in the battle against the forces of
darkness.
>
> we also see that when giles murders ben
> ben wasnt bad enough to deserve an execution
> yet doing so giles probably saved the lives of hundreds or millions of people
>
> who knows
> a sufficiently vindictive glory might decide to kill everyone
> (which makes you a god)
Again, clearly not a pointless act. It was necessary to save lives.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > but you are stuck with the current slayer until she dies
> > if the current slayer is incompetent or crippled or inadequarte
> > you can see if the next slayer is any better
>
> The incompetent ones eliminate themselves. Crippled Slayers become easy
> prey for the monsters, or can be eliminated directly. No need for a test.
- capture her
torture the hell out of her
but dont kill her
we dont need a new slayer
they cant all be like my faith
whether wilkins was right that killing buffy would call another
at least some villians had been thinking about this
also we only see normal human healing accelerated
not some mystical healing beyond human capabilities
so that if you sever the slayers spine at the right place in the neck
i think you got a quadrapeligic slayer until she dies
or is killed
and an intelligent demon is going to help her survive a long time
or just trap her in an armored car for a few decades
> It was a decision to betray his Slayer, for the sake of a pointless
> test, not a strategic necessity in the battle against the forces of
> darkness.
youre starting from the assumption that it is pointless
it does have a purpose
whether that purpose is a good purpose is a separate issue
> > we also see that when giles murders ben
> > ben wasnt bad enough to deserve an execution
> > yet doing so giles probably saved the lives of hundreds or millions of
> > people
> >
> > who knows
> > a sufficiently vindictive glory might decide to kill everyone
> > (which makes you a god)
>
> Again, clearly not a pointless act. It was necessary to save lives.
do you think the giles who sent for the time life occult series
and got the free calendar
would have the stuff to murder ben?
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-EBD34...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > > remember that not only is there endless supply of slayers
> > > but you are stuck with the current slayer until she dies
> > > if the current slayer is incompetent or crippled or inadequarte
> > > you can see if the next slayer is any better
> >
> > The incompetent ones eliminate themselves. Crippled Slayers become easy
> > prey for the monsters, or can be eliminated directly. No need for a test.
>
> - capture her
> torture the hell out of her
> but dont kill her
> we dont need a new slayer
> they cant all be like my faith
>
> whether wilkins was right that killing buffy would call another
> at least some villians had been thinking about this
Which is completely irrelevant to the Cruciamentum.
>
> also we only see normal human healing accelerated
> not some mystical healing beyond human capabilities
> so that if you sever the slayers spine at the right place in the neck
> i think you got a quadrapeligic slayer until she dies
> or is killed
> and an intelligent demon is going to help her survive a long time
>
> or just trap her in an armored car for a few decades
And what does that have to do with the Cruciamentum?
>
> > It was a decision to betray his Slayer, for the sake of a pointless
> > test, not a strategic necessity in the battle against the forces of
> > darkness.
>
> youre starting from the assumption that it is pointless
> it does have a purpose
>
> whether that purpose is a good purpose is a separate issue
You are quibbling between the meanings of pointless and stupid. Fine,
I'll concede. It's a stupid test, not a pointless one.
>
> > > we also see that when giles murders ben
> > > ben wasnt bad enough to deserve an execution
> > > yet doing so giles probably saved the lives of hundreds or millions of
> > > people
> > >
> > > who knows
> > > a sufficiently vindictive glory might decide to kill everyone
> > > (which makes you a god)
> >
> > Again, clearly not a pointless act. It was necessary to save lives.
>
> do you think the giles who sent for the time life occult series
> and got the free calendar
> would have the stuff to murder ben?
"Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage amongst his books.
For to you Kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but
to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned by the flicking
of a finger."
Michael Ikeda
news:13aah3n...@news.supernews.com:
>
> Where I think the WC concept seriously falters is in the arrival
> of Wesley - even though he personally is a good character. The
> savvy ruthlessness of Travers that we see this episode is what
> is conspicuously absent in Wesley. At a critical point in their
> relationship with their Slayer charges - not one, but two
> Slayers - both with watcher issues that could make them hostile
> to the WC - they send a wet behind the ears goof. The palpable
> sense of power that Travers exudes this episode is instantly
> lost and never recovered.
There's also the possibility (suggested by mariposas in another post)
that Wesley was deliberately set up to fail. Presumably by rivals of
his family within the WC.
One Bit Shy
news:Cd6dnenrfeYxHzvb...@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13aah3n...@news.supernews.com:
>
>>
>> Where I think the WC concept seriously falters is in the arrival
>> of Wesley - even though he personally is a good character. The
>> savvy ruthlessness of Travers that we see this episode is what
>> is conspicuously absent in Wesley. At a critical point in their
>> relationship with their Slayer charges - not one, but two
>> Slayers - both with watcher issues that could make them hostile
>> to the WC - they send a wet behind the ears goof. The palpable
>> sense of power that Travers exudes this episode is instantly
>> lost and never recovered.
>
> There's also the possibility (suggested by mariposas in another post)
> that Wesley was deliberately set up to fail. Presumably by rivals of
> his family within the WC.
That'd be fun fanfic too I think, but from the point of view of creating
BtVS I fail to see what would be advanced by such a background. The WC
serves symbolic and practical story functions in relationship to Buffy's
development. They are a major force trying to hold Buffy to the traditional
Slayer mold that Buffy seeks to break free of. The politics back in London
aren't terribly relevant to the advancement of that story. What we see in
Sunnydale is the arrival of a silly git - for whatever reason. The watchers
have survived for thousands of years. It will later be suggested that their
ancestors created The Slayer. It will be claimed that they wield enormous
behind the scenes power beyond merely directing The Slayer. The concept is
of a formidable and ruthless organization not easily tossed aside. And then
the WC shows up in Sunnydale in the form of Wesley, thereby undermining the
premise of any potency whatsoever. There will be some effort to recover
ground in Choices, but hardly enough, and that little is thrown away again
in Wesley's final BtVS scenes.
There will be plenty of non-Wesley examples too. For whatever reason, the
writers chose to play the WC as comically inept. I think it was a wasted
opportunity and one of the least successful constructs in the series. It
never reconciles well with the import of watchers themselves in the series
mythos.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> It's too self-defeating to be believable if the Council is
>> sincerely trying to fight evil, but it doesn't make sense as an Council
>> plot to murder Slayers, either.
>
> I'm a lot more OK with the test than you. I'm curious how you see it as
> self-defeating. My approach doesn't really get there.
I say "self-defeating" because I don't think culling the weaker Slayers
would actually make the WC and its Slayer any more powerful. The way I
figure, a Slayer who turns 18 and goes through the Cruciamentum has
probably already been successfully slaying in the field for quite some
time. (Maybe occasionally they got one who wasn't chosen until she was 17
years and 11 months old, but being called at 15 or 16 seems to be the
norm.) If she dies during the test, she'll be replaced by a brand-new
Slayer, possibly trained, but totally inexperienced at actually being a
Slayer. In some cases, this might be an improvement; but more often I'd
expect that the newbie would be less skillful than any Slayer who had
already survived a year or two in action, even if she did fail the
Cruciamentum. And while eventually, with experience, she might end up
better than the old Slayer, it's also possible she *won't*, in which case
they went back to square one for no reason. Or she might simply get
killed before she gained that experience.
The Cruciamentum could be self-defeating in another way: a Slayer who
survived it and then learned the truth about the test would probably be
disinclined to trust the Council or her Watcher ever again. She might
even seek revenge....
Anyway, self-defeating or not, the test also seems pointless. The
Watchers should have realized that any single combat can be determined
by luck rather than the skill of the two fighters. The only test that
could truly be relied on is a Slayer's record in enough real, unscripted
battles that the element of chance in any one fight is submerged in the
overall trend.
> The coincident test of the watcher would be important too. I imagine its
> aim is to assure that the man in the field is adequately ruthless in pursuit
> of WC aims. Ruthless would be the overall watchword for the exercise, and
> the dominant characteristic of the WC as presented here.
This part I can accept. The Watcher has to be willing to send his Slayer
out to face death. The test could weed out those who seemed ruthless
enough on a normal basis but would weaken when the odds seemed to be
against his Slayer. (But come to think of it, the WC should really have
had a way to test this before the Watcher was assigned in the first
place.)
> The test itself is more than a thousand years old. (I forget offhand how
> much more.)
Quentin refers to it being "done this way for a dozen centuries." This
leaves open the possibility that they've had tests in other forms for even
longer.
> More to the point, the WC represents society's patriarchal tradition - one
> that is intended to be seen as a pointless relic of an ancient past. Buffy
> is the focal point of change. It is through her that the cruel abuse of the
> Cruciamentum is laid bare. Just as it's through her that the tyranny of the
> WC is broken - representing empowerment breaking the tyranny of patriarchy.
> (BtVS usually is reasonably restrained with its feminist message -
> emphasizing the monster story and character impact over the preaching. But
> it's still there. And the WC as patriarchy is one of the strongest
> allegorical relationships.)
The Council in general may well stand for patriarchy, being a group of men
(mostly) with a long tradition of wielding authority over the female
Slayers whether they like it or not. But in Helpless I think the allegory
about patriarchy is a side benefit at most. The Cruciamentum and the WC
itself are mostly just in this episode as plot devices to set up the twin
crises of the Slayer losing her powers and Giles betraying Buffy.
> Where I think the WC concept seriously falters is in the arrival of Wesley -
> even though he personally is a good character. The savvy ruthlessness of
> Travers that we see this episode is what is conspicuously absent in Wesley.
> At a critical point in their relationship with their Slayer charges - not
> one, but two Slayers - both with watcher issues that could make them hostile
> to the WC - they send a wet behind the ears goof. The palpable sense of
> power that Travers exudes this episode is instantly lost and never
> recovered.
We have to assume that Wesley looked better in the familiar environment of
Council meetings than he did in the unfamiliar environment of Sunnydale.
And if the Council had decided that Giles was a failure as a Watcher, then
it makes a certain amount of sense that they replaced him with an
anti-Giles: a man with no history of rebellion, firmly under the Council's
thumb, and too young to see the teenage Slayers as daughter-figures.
>> Did anyone else think that Angel hit the wrong note with his birthday gift
>> for Buffy, an old edition of _Sonnets from the Portuguese_? Buffy is
>> certainly not stupid, but she's never seemed to be much of a reader
>> either. A book of poetry seems a little intimidating to Buffy at a moment
>> when her self-confidence has just taken a major blow ... but I sometimes
>> wonder if her reaction would have been much different even if she wasn't
>> going through that particular crisis at the same time.
>
> I thought it was... odd. Didn't quite work for me, though it didn't impede
> much either. I generally write it off as Angel not knowing how to do gifts.
> He may have tried to draw on what he remembered of gift giving in his human
> days over two centuries before. Perhaps that's what the guys he knew gave
> their lady friends back then. (I'm guessing he never had a serious enough
> girlfriend to do so himself.)
Or another possibility I just thought of: maybe he was trying to distance
himself and his gift from the usual run-of-the-mill guys and the gifts
they got their girlfriends. The poetry was Angel's awkward attempt to
give something a little more meaningful, serious and sincere than jewelry
or a CD or a gift certificate to Victoria's Secret. Unfortunately for
both of them, the poetry was *too* serious, making Buffy feel like a
burden was being put on her, since she'd have to read and appreciate it.
(Not that this was the only gift that would put a burden on the
recipient!)
>> The theory that The Zeppo is shown from Xander's distorted point of view
>> went a long way to reconciling me to that part of the episode. However,
>> I'd like to take that theory in a slightly different direction. A lot of
>> Xander's part in The Zeppo is not literally how Xander perceives the
>> world, even on a very down day. Instead, it's a symbolic representation
>> of how Xander *feels* about the world.
>
> That sounds good to me. Though I'd be inclined to include both
> perspectives. I doubt the concept was so rigidly constructed that the
> writers wouldn't naturally touch on both.
I would doubt that too, now that you mention it. Let's say they both
factor into The Zeppo's structure and style.
>> That has got to be one of the hottest humorous sex scenes I've ever seen.
>> "Just relax and take your pants off." "Those two concepts are
>> antithetical." (What a great unexpected term for Xander to use -- I'm
>> reminded of Jayne's "pretentious" in Shindig.) One great little detail is
>> that Faith actually seems to enjoy the afterglow, for a minute, before
>> kicking Xander out. This not only makes the out-kicking funnier, it also
>> shows us beyond doubt that Faith really is enjoying herself. She isn't
>> driven to joyless random sex by some psychological trauma. She chooses to
>> live the way she does because she likes it, traumatic background
>> notwithstanding. This fits in very well with what we see in the first
>> three quarters of Bad Girls.
>
> I'm personally of the opinion that Faith pumping Buffy about Xander the next
> episode has to be because she's actually thinking about him after. Not
> quite the use 'em and lose 'em attitude she affects. In other words,
> Xander's sense of connection isn't entirely wrong. Not enough connection to
> even come close to overriding Faith's mental state in Consequences. But
> still real.
Reminding me of something I forget to mention in my earlier post. For
quite possibly the first time ever, Faith slept with a decent guy. Not a
perfect guy, to be sure, but one whose heart is in the right place more
often than not. The beginning of Bad Girls seems to indicate that Faith
is curious about this new experience. I really don't think Faith and
Xander could ever have made a couple, at least not for long. But maybe,
if circumstances hadn't intervened and Faith had continued hanging out
with Xander as a friend, she might have come to reconsider her blanket
cynical view of men?
>> Hell yeah. Really, if you don't mind its Part-Oneness, and you can
>> overlook Balthazar's rubber suit looking like a rubber suit,
>
> Yeah, I wish it didn't look so rubbery. But otherwise I think it's a really
> cool look and concept. One of the better MOTW IMO.
I'd agree about the concept. Very different from the usual demons, who
mostly seem to be either simply anthropomorphic with horns or bumpy
foreheads, or else snakes. And I do enjoy his heavy sarcasm and shrieking
rages. If only they could have gotten all that rubber flab to jiggle a
little more when Balthazar waves his arms around, I could have enjoyed his
look whole-heartedly too.
>> Oh, and poor Willow's secret crying session. IMO
>> the part that pains Willow the most is not that Xander has lost his
>> virginity to someone else, it's exactly who that someone else was. First
>> he dates someone Willow considers a skanky ho, then he has sex with
>> another skanky ho, and both times kept it secret from her -- that hurt
>> both her ego and her hopes that her friend would find someone better than
>> that. I'm sure sheer possessiveness was also a factor, but if Xander had
>> gotten it on with someone Willow liked and respected, it probably wouldn't
>> have hurt Willow nearly as much.
>
> I don't think that's enough to make her weep. I think she has to feel
> somehow wounded herself too. And notice the song lyrics in the background:
>
> -- Disappointment stops by from time to time to see how I'm doing
> -- And he came by last night right after you left my life in ruin
> -- When I don't get what I want the spoiled child inside breaks down
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that it being Faith was the *only* reason
Willow felt hurt. Instead it was the aggravating factor that made an
already painful situation so much harder for Willow. Now Xander has
picked two women Willow dislikes, Cordy and Faith, over her. And Xander
has not only moved on from their pre-sex years together and thus closed
that chapter in Willow's life, he's moved on from it with someone Willow
finds increasingly unlikeable and disturbing, not to mention skanky.
Willow probably still would have cried if Xander had suddenly revealed
that he lost his virginity to some hot exchange student or random girl on
the yearbook staff, but losing his virginity to *Faith* was like adding
insult to injury in Willow's mind. And of course keeping it a secret from
Willow was just the crowning touch (as is so often the case in the
Buffyverse).
--Chris
One Bit Shy
news:13adcti...@corp.supernews.com...
What you describe is essentially what happened to her in Who Are You? with
Riley. Much more intensely because it included Riley's love for Buffy. So
I guess this sneak preview would only tease at such doubts in Faith.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote innews:1185157319....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> > On Jul 22, 7:03 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
> >> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
> >> > That's one of my bigger problems with the Watchers throughout
> >> > the series - they're presented as not only authoritarian, but
> >> > also pretty stupid. The Watchers we see (including Wesley,
> >> > while a Council member) consistently demonstrate complete
> >> > incompetence in what they profess to be doing
>
> >> Not exactly "complete incompetence". Even at the start, Wesley
> >> is generally capable at the "go get books, look stuff up" part
> >> of being a Watcher. And even in S3 his opinions are usually
> >> worth considering, even though S3 Wesley has a positive gift
> >> for expressing his views in ways that make the Scoobies
> >> unreceptive.
>
> > Nothing is going to convince me that Wesley is portrayed as
> > capable at his job.
>
> Did not say "capable". I was just objecting to "completely
> incompetent".
>
> (And the problem, to the extent that it's Wesley's fault, is more
> inexperience than anything else.)
Wesley's a capable rese4arch guy, but inept to serve in the position
of Watcher, let alone to two Slayers at once. And the Council looks
completely incompetent for sending a comic relief character to do a
main cast member's job, as the viewer realizes that there will be no
ambiguity to be had - the Watcher's Council as an entity, will be
wrong about everything.
> I'd also say that the WC put Wesley in basically an impossible
> position. With the possible exception of Sam Zabuto, any Watcher
> sent to replace Giles would have extreme difficulty being anything
> more than a barely tolerated assistant to Giles.
It's very entertaining seeing Buffy, rejector of her Watcher's
authority over her, pointedly deferring to him when Wesley's around.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article
> <mair_fheal-48CA38.23250323072...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > remember that not only is there endless supply of slayers
> > but you are stuck with the current slayer until she dies
> > if the current slayer is incompetent or crippled or inadequarte
> > you can see if the next slayer is any better
>
> The incompetent ones eliminate themselves. Crippled Slayers become easy
> prey for the monsters, or can be eliminated directly. No need for a test.
I think the idea is that you want the less special ones out of the way
when they're *not* in the middle of fighting monsters with the fate of
the world at stake.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> The theory that The Zeppo is shown from Xander's distorted point of view
> went a long way to reconciling me to that part of the episode. However,
> I'd like to take that theory in a slightly different direction. A lot of
> Xander's part in The Zeppo is not literally how Xander perceives the
> world, even on a very down day. Instead, it's a symbolic representation
> of how Xander *feels* about the world. For example, being given donut
> duty and nothing else doesn't mean he really thinks that's all he does,
> forgetting all the research and fighting he's done in the past; but it
> symbolizes his doubts about how useful he is to the team. Same thing with
> his repeatedly offering to help, only to be brushed off. This could even
> apply to the annoying football scene at the beginning: trying to join the
> jocks' game of catch isn't the kind of thing Xander would normally do, but
> it symbolizes his secret, doomed wish to be more popular. These plot
> elements are flatly inconsistent with what we've seen of Xander and his
> friends in the past 46 episodes, but they're shown here as an insight into
> Xander's emotional state. So, that's my theory. It makes The Zeppo a lot
> easier to swallow for me.
For me, we've passed the point where it's interesting or enjoyable to
engage in this degree of mental gymnastics just to make the episode
not-terrible (in the first half) or not-dissonant-with-everything-
else.
> IMO the best part the gentle mockery is not the exaggeration of the usual
> melodrama. There *is* a great deal of exaggeration, but what really makes
> it work is that the whole A story is kept in the background, so that we
> only see isolated snippets of BtVS's classic ... argh, what's the word?
> Tropes? Motifs? Gimmicks? Whatever, we only isolated snippets of them,
> without most of the context that usually surrounds them, making us realize
> how often we see the same standard elements: the discovery of a looming
> apocalypse, the research session, the teary Buffy-Angel scene, the
> climactic battle and so on. And I don't know if this was deliberate on
> ME's part or not, but this little parody shows us something else: the
> standard tropes (or whatever) are really just the framework that episodes
> are built on. The heart and soul of BtVS is not in them, but in the long
> term development of the characters, the stuff that usually surrounds those
> tropes.
Well, the more fragmented the tropes get, the funnier that part of the
episode gets, so no dissent here.
> -AOQ questions why Ozwolf is harder to subdue than usual.
That wasn't the question, for the record. I wouldn't have even
noticed it if OBS hadn't pointed it out as one of his favorite
examples of the way the episode's exaggeration includes small details
like that; I don't see the big deal.
> Wesley's introduction is one of the few
> times when being spoiled about future developments could improve your
> first viewing. But now that you know how Wesley develops on AtS, can't
> you really feel for the poor guy here? Raised by a hypercritical,
> impossible-to-please father, having pushed himself throughout his
> education to become the best Watcher he could, he finally gets the chance
> to prove himself ... only to be greeted by blank hostility from both
> Slayers. Of course he's a dork and will make many mistakes, but even
> before that's evident, everyone is already biased against him. It's
> actually kind of sad to see the hope drain out of him as first Buffy and
> then Faith reject his greetings. Sorry, Wes, grownup life is going to be
> just as unhappy as life with your father was....
I can't feel for the poor guy here, because he's such a pompous jerk.
Can't you really feel for the people who have to put up with him? I'm
a bit handicapped here by the sometimes inability to incorporate later
information and pretend it's part of a master storytelling plan.
There's no way in hell the writers had a clue about this troubled
backstory when they created Wesley, and it shows. This is one of
those cases where trying to reconcile the Wesleys feels dissonant to
me rather than organic. For the purposes of BTVS, Wesley is nothing
more or less than an intermittently amusing joke character. It's left
to the writers of _Angel_, as usual, to turn him into someone worthy
of TV time.b
> We see Faith return to Allan's body, in a nice little wordless scene, but
> we don't see her decide to hide the body or go into denial. This works in
> most ways, making her "I don't care" at the end a shock, but it would've
> been nice to see her denial as it was still developing.
Well, you know how much them Buffyverse writers love their Big
Reveals.
> > If I can love one thing even more intensely than
> > anything else, it's the first significant (well, with dialogue,
> > anyway) interaction between Faith and Angel. Separately they're just
> > my two favorite Buffyverse characters, but together their scenes
> > virtually never fail to be anything short of amazing. Spending this
> > quality time with Faith arguably does more to define Angel as a
> > character (and one worthy of a spin-off) than anything else we've seen
> > this year, and lets us see with the benefit of hindsight why exactly
> > he's going to be the one to save her from herself.
>
> I didn't appreciate this part as much on first viewing, before I had
> watched AtS. (Of course *nobody* had seen AtS when Consequences first
> aired, so that probably says more about my slow wits than anything else.)
> Now it's full of meaning. It's also one of the clearest instances of
> ME using S3 to help set up the spinoff show.
But in a way in which it's also very relevant to "Consequences" rather
than un-attached setup.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > The coincident test of the watcher would be important too. I imagine its
> > aim is to assure that the man in the field is adequately ruthless in pursuit
> > of WC aims. Ruthless would be the overall watchword for the exercise, and
> > the dominant characteristic of the WC as presented here.
>
> This part I can accept. The Watcher has to be willing to send his Slayer
> out to face death. The test could weed out those who seemed ruthless
> enough on a normal basis but would weaken when the odds seemed to be
> against his Slayer. (But come to think of it, the WC should really have
> had a way to test this before the Watcher was assigned in the first
> place.)
Well, consider that even their most horrible too-sentimental failure
of a Watcher was willing to go through with the test, at least
initially.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Yeah, bring in the part of WAY that doesn't work for me at all...
I very much like what both of you have to say about this topic, both
about how much she enjoys the part of her lifestyle that includes so
much sex (I believe her when she says that "that was great") and about
how Xander isn't totally wrong about connecting with her. I'd add
that in "Consequences," I've always seen a strong element of
retreating into the want-take-forget mentality to avoid having to deal
with any of the uncomfortable truths that Xander's trying to sell
her. Sure, she enjoys the power over life and death thing once it
gets that far, but there's a lot of avoidance in the build-up,
changing the subject so as to banish the notion of connecting with
Xander, which would also involve confronting what she's done. Hell,
let's quote it:
XANDER: Faith, you may not think so, but I sort of know you. And
I've seen you post-battle. And I know firsthand that you're, um...
like a wild thing. And half the time, you don't know what you're
doing.
FAITH: (snidely) And you're living proof of that, aren't you?
XANDER: See, you're trying to hurt me. But right now, you need
someone on your side. What happened wasn't your fault. And I'm
willing to testify to that in court if you need me.
FAITH: You'd dig that, wouldn't you? To get up in front of all your
geek pals and go on record about how I made you my boy toy for a night
XANDER: No. N-n-n-n-no, that's not it.
FAITH: *I* know what this is all about. You just came by here cuz
you want another taste, don't you?
-AOQ
Don Sample
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Then the time for such a test is when they're first called, not after
they've had a few years of chances to screw up, and get the world
destroyed.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article <1185340580.631266.105...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 24, 1:42 am, Don Sample <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote:
> > > The incompetent ones eliminate themselves. Crippled Slayers become easy
> > > prey for the monsters, or can be eliminated directly. No need for a test.
>
> > I think the idea is that you want the less special ones out of the way
> > when they're *not* in the middle of fighting monsters with the fate of
> > the world at stake.
>
> Then the time for such a test is when they're first called, not after
> they've had a few years of chances to screw up, and get the world
> destroyed.
For me, knowing how the WC operates, the question is why we don't see
more of these kinds of tests throughout a Slayer's training. This one
specifically tests one's ability to adapt to losing powers she's come
to rely on - using Kendra as a "typical" Slayer, they probably have
some initial training while still non-superhuman Potentials that's the
first level of culling.
As for why eighteen in particular, well, who knows? Maybe the
Watchers have found that generally the older and otherworld-wearier a
Slayer gets, the more likely a vamp is to have One Good Day?
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> A lot of things apparently happen off-screen or between episodes that I
> really wish were shown. (Case in point, Buffy talking to Angel about why she
> had to kill him even though he'd been "cured").
He already understood everything. In fact, he signaled her. With his
eyes. ;-)
-AOQ
David L. Burkhead
news:1185386119.3...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
That's his story and he's sticking to it.
OTOH, we've seen in the past that when he got his soul back the first
time it took a while for him to remember the things he did while not having
it.
However, that's really not my main point. It's not an "Angel needed to
hear" issue, but a "Buffy needed to say to Angel" issue--much like how Giles
got her to say that Angel was cured when she killed him.
--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@asmicro.com "While we live, let us live."
One Bit Shy
news:1185342805.7...@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
She runs to the party and the sex and all of her dark places rather than
honestly look at herself. It all eventually leads to 5X5. Damn I
appreciate that episode for bringing it together. If AtS never did anything
good again, it would still be worth it for that episode alone.
So Xander may really have made it worse by inadvertently triggering the
worst of Faith's defense mechanisms.
OBS
Wouter Valentijn
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> schreef in bericht
news:13af84k...@news.supernews.com...
By being too nice.
She didn't trust nice.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
http://www.nksf.scifics.com/Nom20072008.html
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail