A Second Look: BTVS S3D6
Arbitrar Of Quality
Aren't we going to kiss?
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 20: "The Prom"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Solomon
After the discussion of why "Go Fish" is so badly placed, I was
surprised that anyone would suggest "The Prom" falling into the same
category. As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the best-placed
episodes of the series. The most obvious reason is that there's a
construct to explain the pre-finale light episode, since there's
nothing like impending doom to make prom seem like a special night to
remember. While we're there, though, it's a great chance to trace the
journey our hero has taken... and just a chance to hang out with the
other characters for awhile. I enjoy seeing how much, after taking
the year (and the previous two, to a degree) to get here, Buffy
explicit-izes and embraces her role as Protector. Turning around and
letting Buffy know that she's appreciated is one of the pinnacles
towards which _Buffy: The High School Years_ has been building, and
that's a natural flow into the denouement over the next few weeks.
Despite all that gushing about the setup, TP itself feels a little bit
slight to me. There's a lot of energy devoted to yet another Buffy/
Angel breakup. I haven't complained very much about the repetition in
their story because I'm generally interested in them - never more so
than in S3, when they have to see whether they can deal with life
after the epic to-the-death saga and Angel's getting more interesting
in his own right with each week. But there's only so many tearful
separations one can take, especially knowing that they'll still be
unable to let go next episode. Are the two characters reached the
limits of what they can do while sharing the same show, or could the
writers have kept things up had they not been thinking spinoff?
Anyway, this is an episode that's both fun and touching, although not
a special personal favorite - a high Good for me.
Rating: Good
Season Three, Episode 21: "Graduation Day (Part One)"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
One of those episodes that just clicks on almost every level. Joss's
writing is about the best it ever gets on a scene-by-scene basis. I
smile every time Willow opens her mouth, and almost every time anyone
else does. But as much as a collection of witty exchanges, GDI is
also a mood piece, perfectly capturing the sense that there's a storm
coming, so to speak. The library scene is a surprise that makes
Wilkins seem about as menacing as possible. Between the threat the
Mayor poses to the world and the one the hunt for Faith might pose to
Buffy's body and soul, it's quite a buildup and climax (pun intended,
in some characters' cases...). The only problem with GDI is that once
Faith falls from the roof, Season Three is more or less over as far as
I'm concerned...
Rating: Excellent
Season Three, Episode 22: "Graduation Day (Part Two)"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
But there's an episode left, and it's one that almost everyone seems
to say "yeah, it's good, but kinda disappointing because I wanted it
to be amazing." Except for the scenes with or around Faith, much of
GDII is a big action setpiece without that extra emotional twist that
some of the season finales come up with. A nice thick slab of pizza
is a good thing, but if one was really in the mood to have a haute
cuisine night... A lot of this episode feels like it should be right -
especially the class coming together to fight off their faculty-
administrator and commencement speaker and blow up the school - could
there be any other ending to this phase of the story? There I have to
take myself to task for, in my original review, not adequately
criticizing the awkward staging of the battle that keeps it from being
the adrenaline rush. Mike Zeares summed it up perfectly last time
around:
"Let's talk about that action for a moment. Because it's what I found
most disappointing in GD2, to the point that the ep was kind of a let-
down for me.
"First of all, the giant CGI snake looks exactly like a giant CGI
snake. It worked pretty well when it was smashing through the school
(the best part of the whole sequence, IMHO), but initally they didn't
quite get it to look as if it was really in the scene. I thought that
at the time, too. I'm not comparing it to today's CGI (which, come to
think of it, still looks fake on the small screen). And then there's
the battle. Which should be the most bad-ass thing ever. At the
climax, where the vamps say "Get the kids!," the music swells, the
vamps stop short in surprised close-up, and the shooting script says
"fuggin' Braveheart ensues." What we actually see, unfortunately, is
a bunch of people milling around. There were just too many people in
the space. The two sides looked like they were passing through each
other, instead of fighting.
[snip]
"Plus there was the tactical error of having them charge down a flight
of steps, which just can't be done gracefully. It's like, "Charge!
Waitaminute (stepstepstepstepstepstepstep) ok, yaaaaaarrgh!""
I think I was feeling the disappointment in that regard but couldn't
quite figure out why? [shrug] I just think _Buffy's_ best season
deserved to end with a masterpiece.
Rating: Good
Additional comments on S3D6: Is it just me, or would it make more
sense to put the season overview featurette at the end of the season
that's just been viewed over? Evidently the creators of the later
sets agree.
I'm quietly keeping track of my numerical averages and such for each
year based on the revised ratings. S3 scores far and away the best of
any Buffyverse season, the only one even close to (although still well
short of) the amazing overall quality of _Firefly_. It's improved
slightly in my estimation this time through; mean score of 3.95
(Decent =3), 73% of episodes ranking Good or above. Compare to 3.68
and 62% for S6, which was my second favorite of BTVS the first time
through, and to 4.26 and 80% for _Firefly_. With my upgrading of
"Band Candy," it's also now the only Buffyverse season that never
falls below Decent for me. Also like FF, Season Three straddles the
line between stand-alone stories and arcs at slight detriment to the
latter but overall benefit to the series. And oh yeah, it features
characters to die or kill for. If all TV were this good, I wouldn't
have the few friends I do.
The future (of the series) is ours!
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1185929575.0...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 20: "The Prom"
> After the discussion of why "Go Fish" is so badly placed, I was
> surprised that anyone would suggest "The Prom" falling into the same
> category. As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the best-placed
> episodes of the series.
Someone thought this was badly placed? My, I pushed that out of my head
quick enough. It's placement is great. I think it's placement has a whole
lot to do with turning a "slight" episode, as you call it, into a pretty
darned good one. There's a little bit of taking stock of their lives going
on here. Certainly the Angel/Buffy break-up is very much about getting
serious about what their future really could be. That's not so happy. But
Buffy embracing her protector status and being appreciated for it is quite a
good thing. We also get a good look at the kind of guy Xander is turning
into. The gesture with Cordelia's dress is obviously sweet - though it's
also, finally, his atonement that both of them needed. This sympathetic
side of him is also reflected in his accepting Anya's plea for a date and
his treatment of a suffering Buffy.
Taking stock matters I think, but it's the welling warmth and near
romanticizing of a time nearing its end that takes over - a sense that I can
relate to having experienced something much like it in the final days of my
high school senior year. One of the sweetest things about the episode is
simply giving everybody a brief moment of easy happiness. Hell, even
Jonathon gets a beautiful date. It's a gift to the characters and to an
audience that doesn't want its heroes to suffer *all* of the time. But
beneath it all, one knows it's still just a respite. The night before the
storm. The day before the lives they've known for years must end and an
unknown is entered into. There's something kind of symbolic about a prom at
that point, where the clinging to each other is formalized into dance.
> The most obvious reason is that there's a
> construct to explain the pre-finale light episode, since there's
> nothing like impending doom to make prom seem like a special night to
> remember. While we're there, though, it's a great chance to trace the
> journey our hero has taken... and just a chance to hang out with the
> other characters for awhile. I enjoy seeing how much, after taking
> the year (and the previous two, to a degree) to get here, Buffy
> explicit-izes and embraces her role as Protector.
Willow: We got in. Maybe we should dance before we get besieged, bedeviled,
or beheaded or something.
Oz: It's not gonna happen.
Willow: You're not even a little nervous?
Oz: You think Buffy is going to let us down?
Oz's character is deliberately constructed to be somewhat enigmatic - hard
to see into his emotional center. But once in a while little things sneak
through. Had you really thought of him having that kind of confidence in
Buffy before? Faith in Buffy. Even Willow doesn't so easily get to that
level of confidence. Of course, in the prior episode, he watched Buffy
stand up for Willow and come through for her. And he personally knows her
heart for standing by him, the werewolf that could have been by all rights
slain. Indeed, he's seen a lot over the last couple of years. He's usually
been more the witness than the participant, and may be best positioned of
the inner core to objectively appreciate what Buffy's done. A fitting
choice, I think, to so simply express his faith in her.
Of course Jonathon provides the greatest testament.
> Turning around and
> letting Buffy know that she's appreciated is one of the pinnacles
> towards which _Buffy: The High School Years_ has been building, and
> that's a natural flow into the denouement over the next few weeks.
Personally I think that being named Class Protector is one of the pinnacles
of the series. It's not just that it's a sweet moment in itself, but that
it's one of very few times in the series when Buffy's life and calling are
truly validated for her. It's a rare moment where it is shown to Buffy, in
a way she truly understands and appreciates, that what she does matters.
Has meaning. In this sense it's on par with the conclusion of The Gift and
Chosen, but is quite singular in its peaceful warmth - its lack of mayhem.
With the unresolved status of Faith and Wilkins, one could never end here.
But leaving plot aside, on an emotional level this is one of the places of
rest that one could imagine winding up on, much as in the two counter
examples I offered.
The episode as a whole is nowhere near on par with the other two. Just this
moment.
> Despite all that gushing about the setup, TP itself feels a little bit
> slight to me. There's a lot of energy devoted to yet another Buffy/
> Angel breakup. I haven't complained very much about the repetition in
> their story because I'm generally interested in them - never more so
> than in S3, when they have to see whether they can deal with life
> after the epic to-the-death saga and Angel's getting more interesting
> in his own right with each week. But there's only so many tearful
> separations one can take, especially knowing that they'll still be
> unable to let go next episode. Are the two characters reached the
> limits of what they can do while sharing the same show, or could the
> writers have kept things up had they not been thinking spinoff?
Unknowable. Not just because that's the path not taken, but because this
path was so deliberately constructed to allow no other conclusion. All the
way back in BATB we were being instructed that Buffy/Angel was a mistake,
that Buffy was being ruled by her emotions, and in denial over the risk.
Mr. Platt: Look, lots of people lose themselves in love. It's, it's no
shame. They write songs about it. The hitch is, you can't stay lost. Sooner
or later, you... you have to get back to yourself.
Buffy: And if you can't?
Mr. Platt: If you can't... Well, love becomes your master, and you're just
its dog.
And so, in various ways it continued to be hammered at all season that Buffy
and Angel are kidding themselves, culminating this episode as they find
themselves having spent the night in each other's arms, teasing at disaster.
Or so it's played, the only conclusion we are permitted to consider.
If the show had really wanted to keep Buffy and Angel together, I'm sure
they could have come up with something to remove the curse. Or some other
solution. However, if there were no AtS, I suspect the most logical
resolution would be to leave Angel in hell.
That's probably my biggest issue with Angel this season. It mainly feels
like making something up to get him to his own show. The long good-bye a
way of killing time. The great notion that there is no future for them not
really so thought provoking - especially after the drama of S2 - and not
worthy of the constant repetition and repeated break-ups.
Fortunately they did every once in a while get some good use of Angel along
the way - especially as focal point for Revelations. And I genuinely love
Buffy feeding herself to Angel in the final episode - though for me that's
finally bringing closure to Becoming, with minimal connection to Angel/Buffy
this season.
> Anyway, this is an episode that's both fun and touching, although not
> a special personal favorite - a high Good for me.
> Rating: Good
It's a moderate Good for me. A hodge-podge of modestly entertaining bits, a
decent break-up, albeit kind of dragged out, a silly amusing monster hunt, a
really sentimental prom, and then, finally, one great moment of validation
for Buffy.
> Season Three, Episode 21: "Graduation Day (Part One)"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> One of those episodes that just clicks on almost every level. Joss's
> writing is about the best it ever gets on a scene-by-scene basis. I
> smile every time Willow opens her mouth, and almost every time anyone
> else does. But as much as a collection of witty exchanges, GDI is
> also a mood piece, perfectly capturing the sense that there's a storm
> coming, so to speak. The library scene is a surprise that makes
> Wilkins seem about as menacing as possible. Between the threat the
> Mayor poses to the world and the one the hunt for Faith might pose to
> Buffy's body and soul, it's quite a buildup and climax (pun intended,
> in some characters' cases...). The only problem with GDI is that once
> Faith falls from the roof, Season Three is more or less over as far as
> I'm concerned...
> Rating: Excellent
You like the beginning better than I. Most of the scenes play quite well by
themselves - though not so much Willow/Oz sex for me. As a group they seem
pretty fragmented. Not much unifying force beyond the general, still
distant sense that the ascension is coming. It's only when we find that a
slayer's blood can save Angel that the emotions start to rage. Purpose and
urgency slam into place and it becomes an extraordinary episode. If I could
take the second half of this episode and merge it with the first half of the
next, then I think I'd have one of the series great episodes.
But it wasn't done that way. Still, I think this is the better of the two
and earns an Excellent.
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Graduation Day (Part Two)"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> But there's an episode left, and it's one that almost everyone seems
> to say "yeah, it's good, but kinda disappointing because I wanted it
> to be amazing." Except for the scenes with or around Faith, much of
> GDII is a big action setpiece without that extra emotional twist that
> some of the season finales come up with.
Feeding herself to Angel is lacking the extra emotional twist? That's an
extremely powerful scene for me. And the thing Buffy desperately needed to
do in order to be at peace with Angel walking away. Add in the hospital
scenes where Wilkins rage finally unleashes itself and Buffy has her strange
Faith laced vision, and I think you've got a mighty fine first half to this
episode.
After that I'm more with you. Destroying the high school is big on the
symbollism, but otherwise is much the action setpiece you call it. And a
pretty poorly staged setpiece at that. I think we all would have been
rather more thrilled if the action had more - well - action in it. And if
the worm was better. It was an ending that definitely relied on us to
accept the idea over the image.
Still... they did blow up the school. And Snyder got eaten. And Harmony
got bit. And flaming arrows got shot. And they survived high school. It
wasn't awful.
Most of all, it succeeded in bringing to a fair close a remarkable season -
without ruining anything in the process. I think sometimes too much
investment is placed in the quality of the conclusion when it's the whole
ride we want to remember.
It retains its Good rating for me.
> If all TV were this good, I wouldn't
> have the few friends I do.
It's a good season and mostly turns out happy - even if Buffy/Angel do break
up, Faith ends up in a coma, and Giles doesn't have a job.
A couple random notes that are on my mind, but not intended as bigger than
anything else...
One thing that tends to get touched only indirectly in discussion is that
the Scoobies get shown this season as a rather selfish, distrusting and
dysfunctional lot. In some ways they're as close as ever at the end, but
vulnerabilities have been exposed.
Secondly, while watching Buffy's indecision towards Angel this season, I was
particularly struck by the parallel with Buffy's indecision towards Spike in
S6. Yeah, there are differences. But combined with the similarities -
that's part of what makes it interesting.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1185929575.0...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Aren't we going to kiss?
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 20: "The Prom"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> a special personal favorite - a high Good for me.
> Rating: Good
Good for me too. And it is something of a personal favourite - at least my
23rd favourite BtVS episode, 4th best in season 3 (unchanged from last
year).
> Season Three, Episode 21: "Graduation Day (Part One)"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> One of those episodes that just clicks on almost every level. Joss's
> writing is about the best it ever gets on a scene-by-scene basis. I
> smile every time Willow opens her mouth, and almost every time anyone
> else does. But as much as a collection of witty exchanges, GDI is
> also a mood piece, perfectly capturing the sense that there's a storm
> coming, so to speak. The library scene is a surprise that makes
> Wilkins seem about as menacing as possible. Between the threat the
> Mayor poses to the world and the one the hunt for Faith might pose to
> Buffy's body and soul, it's quite a buildup and climax (pun intended,
> in some characters' cases...). The only problem with GDI is that once
> Faith falls from the roof, Season Three is more or less over as far as
> I'm concerned...
> Rating: Excellent
Only Good for me. My 35th favourite BtVS episode, 8th best in season 3 (last
year was 36th and 7th)
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Graduation Day (Part Two)"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> cuisine night... A lot of this episode feels like it should be right -
> especially the class coming together to fight off their faculty-
> administrator and commencement speaker and blow up the school - could
> there be any other ending to this phase of the story? There I have to
> take myself to task for, in my original review, not adequately
> criticizing the awkward staging of the battle that keeps it from being
> the adrenaline rush. Mike Zeares summed it up perfectly last time
> around:
>
>
> "Let's talk about that action for a moment. Because it's what I found
> most disappointing in GD2, to the point that the ep was kind of a let-
> down for me.
> "First of all, the giant CGI snake looks exactly like a giant CGI
> snake. It worked pretty well when it was smashing through the school
> (the best part of the whole sequence, IMHO), but initally they didn't
> quite get it to look as if it was really in the scene. I thought that
> at the time, too. I'm not comparing it to today's CGI (which, come to
> think of it, still looks fake on the small screen). And then there's
> the battle. Which should be the most bad-ass thing ever. At the
> climax, where the vamps say "Get the kids!," the music swells, the
> vamps stop short in surprised close-up, and the shooting script says
> "fuggin' Braveheart ensues." What we actually see, unfortunately, is
> a bunch of people milling around. There were just too many people in
> the space. The two sides looked like they were passing through each
> other, instead of fighting.
Does TV ever get large scale action sequences right? They don't have a movie
budget (to allow them to just reshoot it if it doesn't work out on the first
take - or the 10th) and the directors and crew specialising in TV don't
often get the chance to practice controlling the necessary crowd of extras.
> [snip]
> "Plus there was the tactical error of having them charge down a flight
> of steps, which just can't be done gracefully. It's like, "Charge!
> Waitaminute (stepstepstepstepstepstepstep) ok, yaaaaaarrgh!""
If they did have the budget to do a second take of that shot, they might
have considered doing a homage to (ie, stealing from) the Steps of Odessa
scene in Battleship Potemkin, and had the kids make a steady, remorseless
advance down the Steps of Sunnydale - but then again, that might have
engendered too much sympathy for the poor defenceless vampires at the bottom
of the steps :)
> I think I was feeling the disappointment in that regard but couldn't
> quite figure out why? [shrug] I just think _Buffy's_ best season
> deserved to end with a masterpiece.
> Rating: Good
Season 3 is one of my favourites, but it's not a season of masterpieces -
just consistently good episodes. So it is sort of appropriate that it's
finale is simply Very Good (which it is for me). It's my 26th favourite BtVS
episode, 6th best in season 3 (last
year was 24th and 5th).
--
Apteryx
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Fine. You know what? These threads hope you die.
> Aren't we going to kiss?
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 20: "The Prom"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
Something I had forgotten about until recent re-watching: at the beginning
of the teaser, sleeping and then feeling the cat on her head, Buffy is
super-cute. We're talking near-Willow levels of cuteness here! The
ensuing conversation is nice, and I really enjoyed the admittedly
heavy-handed symbolism of the last line: "I guess it's later than we
thought." But it was the cuteness that really struck me.
Has anyone tried interpreting The Prom as the old story of a guy breaking
it off when the girl starts assuming more commitment than he's comfortable
with? Buffy starts asking for a drawer in Angel's place, plans to put up
mirrors, assumes he'll go the prom with her, and then bam! Heartbreaking
sewer talk.
> other characters for awhile. I enjoy seeing how much, after taking
> the year (and the previous two, to a degree) to get here, Buffy
> explicit-izes and embraces her role as Protector.
She's gotten to the point where the Protector side of her life can even
compensate for severe disappointments in her "normal" life. Kicking ass
is comfort food, but it's more than just being able to pummel something.
Just as her friends and emotions help her in Slaying, Slaying helps her
emotionally through, for example, the satisfaction of giving her friends
one perfect senior prom. The two sides of her life still don't always
work together perfectly, but at least she's gotten way past seeing her
calling as something ruining her life.
> There's a lot of energy devoted to yet another Buffy/
> Angel breakup. I haven't complained very much about the repetition in
> their story because I'm generally interested in them - never more so
If you wanted to be an optimist, you could see the repetition as an
important tool in defining the Buffy-Angel love as intense but doomed.
Circumstances push them apart, sometimes simple common sense pushes them
apart, but their longing for each other is too intense for them to *stay*
apart, so they get back together to start the cycle again ... until Angel
finally summons the strength to make a more definitive break in The Prom.
(Of course even that doesn't completely end it, but it does interrupt the
cycle.) Like AOQ, I'm interested in how Buffy and Angel develop, so I
choose to be an optimist on this question. I'm not sure the line "Is this
really happening?" works for me, but on the whole it's all well done. The
tense, awkward post-breakup conversation at the butcher shop is good.
Nothing more awkward than breaking up with someone you still work with....
As far as the rest of the cast goes, I like the little reconciliation, or
at least peace treaty, between Xander and Cordelia. When Xander discovers
her secret, Cordy is so wrapped up in her problems, and her self-image as
being at war with her ex, that she doesn't even notice that making fun of
her is the farthest thing from Xander's mind. She doesn't seem to notice
that he tried to save her from the hell hound, either. Light starts to
dawn for Cordy even before the dress thing, when Xander surprises her by
keeping her secret in front of the others -- maybe he's not such a bad
guy after all. The dress is important because it finally gives Xander a
chance to make amends to Cordy, as OBS already said. Nothing too
profound, but it's a nice episode for both of them.
Not so nice an ep for Wesley, but at least the Wes jokes mostly worked for
me. "Perhaps we could stay on topic for once ... what were you doing with
Xander?" (Whereas, skipping ahead a little, I thought the Wesley
wimpering thing near the end of GD2 was way overdone. But at least he
was trying to fight and didn't panic this time.)
So we all agree that the Class Protector award is great, right? It's nice
that ME occasionally gives us a moment that can put you on the edge of
*happy* tears. I especially like Jonathan's speech starting with that
ambiguous "We're not friends," leaving you wondering what exactly is going
to happen. The whole gang looks tremendously proud of her, even Cordy and
Wes (and, somewhat incongruously, Anya). If only Joyce could have been
there too. I wonder if Angel saw or at least heard it from outside?
> Anyway, this is an episode that's both fun and touching, although not
> a special personal favorite - a high Good for me.
> Rating: Good
I'd give it a Good too.
> Season Three, Episode 21: "Graduation Day (Part One)"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
.
> One of those episodes that just clicks on almost every level. Joss's
> writing is about the best it ever gets on a scene-by-scene basis.
The first scene that really blows me away is Faith killing Professor
Lester. She's reached the point where she's actually kind of tickled by
her own lack of concern at killing an innocent man, not even caring why
the Mayor needs him to die. As usual, every scene with Faith in it
shines, but this is one of my favorites.
(I think this was actually the very first episode I saw Faith in, during
FX's Thanksgiving Day 2001 BTVS marathon. Turkey, booze and Faith -- all
holidays should be like that!)
I have to note that Faith's arrow pokes through Angel in exactly the same
spot on the chest where we've seen a lot of vampires get staked with fatal
results....
> Between the threat the
> Mayor poses to the world and the one the hunt for Faith might pose to
> Buffy's body and soul,
I like the little bit between Xander and Buffy right before she goes for
Faith. "I just don't want to lose you." "I won't get hurt." "That's not
what I mean." Buffy just glares at him, understanding his point but not
caring. She's entirely willing to be lost, if that's what it takes to
save Angel. Or if that's what it takes to vent her hatred of Faith. The
little "lost" sticker on the mirror doesn't feel as heavy-handed as it
probably should.
The big Buffy-Faith fight has always been one of my favorites. Though
it's really more for the non-fighty parts of the fight, like Buffy's line
"Your blood," the ominous little musical cue under it, and Faith's
reaction, or Faith's final speech and Buffy's reaction to "killing" her.
Great stuff.
Speaking of musical cues, I love it when an episode ends on some dark
musical note as "Executive Producer: Joss Whedon" appears on the screen.
It's like what you'd expect on the soundtrack when a time bomb is
discovered or the villain reveals himself.
> Rating: Excellent
We've now reached the episodes where I responded to AOQ's ratings. (I'd
been posting to his threads since Bad Girls, but without mentioning the
rating itself.) The first time around I gave GD1 and GD2 both Excellents,
with part 1 being a little Excellenter. I'll stick with that. Not
*quite* top ten material, perhaps, but GD1 is pretty high-quality all the
way through.
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Graduation Day (Part Two)"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
.
> But there's an episode left, and it's one that almost everyone seems
> to say "yeah, it's good, but kinda disappointing because I wanted it
> to be amazing." Except for the scenes with or around Faith, much of
> GDII is a big action setpiece without that extra emotional twist that
> some of the season finales come up with.
The action setpiece really only takes up the final act; the first part of
GD2 gives plenty of emotion. GD parts 1 and 2 can be thought of as three
episodes: the first, from the beginning of part 1 to the arrow through
Angel's chest; the second, from then until Buffy's declaration of war; and
the third, from then until the end of part 2. (It's possible I'm not the
first person to think of this.) The second "episode" in this trilogy is
just packed with emotional scenes.
As you say, the scenes with or around Faith, that is, the hospital scenes
and the dreamwalk, are very good. (The first hospital scene is also a
pretty impressive oner.) Slightly farther from Faith, I also like Angel's
discomfort and shame when he has to tell the others how Buffy cured him.
But the most impressive scene of all is the cure itself, the Drink Me
scene. Would it be going too far to call it a distillation of the whole
Buffy-Angel romance, with the sex and the vampirism inextricably mixed
together, intense and unhealthy and doomed but necessary for both of them?
Yeah, that would probably be going too far, but still.... It's also a
great instance of Buffy's it's-never-over, never-give-up ethos. She'll
cure Angel even if she has to beat him 'til the vamp comes out.
I'll agree that the last half of GD2 (or the last third of the GD trilogy)
doesn't measure up to what came before, mainly because the fight scenes
can't manage what they set out to do. (The CGI snake isn't a problem for
me; it's more or less adequate.) But although these scenes don't look as
exciting as the should, I still find a lot to like in there. It's
profoundly satisfying to see the kids suddenly stand up for themselves,
first when they pull off their robes to reveal their fighting gear, and
then when the vampires yell "Get the kids!" only to find the kids charging
*them*. After all the students of SHS have suffered, they finally get the
chance to fight back. It's a precurser of Chosen: Buffy wins by
empowering other people. Plus of course blowing up the school.
In GD1 Buffy told her mom that "graduation is a pointless ceremony where
you sit around and listen to a bunch of boring speeches until someone
hands you a piece of paper that says you graduated, which you already
know...." Although not "pointless," GD2 is kind of like that. It's not
the episode when Buffy comes of age, it's simply an acknowledgement that
it has already happened. Maybe that, more than the weaknesses of the
final battle, is what makes Graduation Day feel less important than
Becoming. It's mainly a summation rather than a pivotal moment in itself.
The wordless parting between Buffy and Angel was just right. What could
either of them have said? Angel disappearing into the smoke is also a
nice little parallel to their first meeting, when he faded back into the
shadows.
> Rating: Good
Again, it's not top ten material, but for me it makes it into Excellent
territory. The low-adrenaline battle scene keep it from being quite as
good as part 1, though.
> Additional comments on S3D6: Is it just me, or would it make more
> sense to put the season overview featurette at the end of the season
> that's just been viewed over? Evidently the creators of the later
> sets agree.
I agree too. The perfect time to watch the season overview is when you've
just finished rewatching the whole season and aren't quite ready to turn
the DVD player off and return to the real world yet.
Also on S3D6, I think it's a little odd that Spike is on the disc label,
considering he was only in one S3 episode (admittedly a great one), and it
came like four discs ago. I think Giles should have gotten a disc, or
else the Mayor. But at least Spike has his shirt on.
About S3 in general, I still think it's my favorite season. As I
mentioned in the S3D5 thread, it lacks any single unambiguously classic
episode like Innocence or OMWF; but it does have the best run of
consistently Good to Excellent episodes, and the fewest low points. This
leads to my old half-joking theory that the odd-numbered seasons (except
maybe S1) are the most consistent, while the even-numbered seasons tend to
have wild combinations of classic episodes and serious disappointments.
S3 has no Hush, not quite, but it has no Beer Bad either; and its average
quality comes a lot closer to Hush-territory than BB-territory. I'm not
one of those people who thinks it's all downhill from here, but no later
season of BTVS will be this consistently good.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Michael Ikeda
news:13b4odr...@corp.supernews.com:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: Fine. You know what? These threads hope you die.
>> Aren't we going to kiss?
> .
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 20: "The Prom"
>> Writer: Marti Noxon
>> Director: David Solomon
>
>
> In GD1 Buffy told her mom that "graduation is a pointless
> ceremony where you sit around and listen to a bunch of boring
> speeches until someone hands you a piece of paper that says you
> graduated, which you already know...."
The scene that this is from is another nice little Buffy-Joyce
moment. I like the way Joyce shows her trust in Buffy, at least in
some matters.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> If you wanted to be an optimist, you could see the repetition as an
> important tool in defining the Buffy-Angel love as intense but doomed.
> Circumstances push them apart, sometimes simple common sense pushes them
> apart, but their longing for each other is too intense for them to *stay*
> apart, so they get back together to start the cycle again ... until Angel
> finally summons the strength to make a more definitive break in The Prom.
It could reflect the viewer (or me, anyway), hoping they'll somehow
work out a way to cope with the hundreds of things we know are wrong
with this relationship. I am a little bit burned out by the end of
the season, though, and I think you'll find that most people found a
point ("Lovers Walk" for some, etc.) after which the B/A relationship
got harder to be invested in. Once a breakup leads to a
reconciliation two episodes later, the next one has to become harder
to take as seriously.
> The
> tense, awkward post-breakup conversation at the butcher shop is good.
> Nothing more awkward than breaking up with someone you still work with....
My favorite moment in that vein is the mass of contradictions before
Angel gets shot in GDI.
But they're not main characters. Main characters are also less
flammable.
> I like the little bit between Xander and Buffy right before she goes for
> Faith. "I just don't want to lose you." "I won't get hurt." "That's not
> what I mean." Buffy just glares at him, understanding his point but not
> caring. She's entirely willing to be lost, if that's what it takes to
> save Angel. Or if that's what it takes to vent her hatred of Faith. The
> little "lost" sticker on the mirror doesn't feel as heavy-handed as it
> probably should.
It's a quick and efficient moment for the show too. We understand
what's at stake, and Buffy to a degree does too. Spending more time
than the episode does dwelling on it outside the context of the scenes
it's motivating would be of no benefit to anyone. Some other TV shows
(and some episodes of this one) could take a cue from GDI in that
regard - although I like it overall, "Villains" comes to mind.
> The big Buffy-Faith fight has always been one of my favorites. Though
> it's really more for the non-fighty parts of the fight, like Buffy's line
> "Your blood," the ominous little musical cue under it, and Faith's
> reaction, or Faith's final speech and Buffy's reaction to "killing" her.
> Great stuff.
Have we delved into analyzing exactly what Faith meant with her very
last line before falling? It sounds great, but I'm not quite sure
what she's going for.
> In GD1 Buffy told her mom that "graduation is a pointless ceremony where
> you sit around and listen to a bunch of boring speeches until someone
> hands you a piece of paper that says you graduated, which you already
> know...." Although not "pointless," GD2 is kind of like that. It's not
> the episode when Buffy comes of age, it's simply an acknowledgement that
> it has already happened. Maybe that, more than the weaknesses of the
> final battle, is what makes Graduation Day feel less important than
> Becoming. It's mainly a summation rather than a pivotal moment in itself.
Hmm, that's well said. It goes down to the individual details too -
Buffy formally ditches the WC here, but it's just an official
announcement of what she and we already knew, and so on throughout the
episode. When I talk about a "twist," I feel like most of the season-
enders and other major arc enders did something to surprise me.
Obviously, I don't try to predict exactly how things are going to play
out, but in the immediate aftermath, my reaction may be more like
"wow" (Buffy realizing that she'll have to kill Angel in a few
seconds) or more like "yeah, figures that the show would do that... I
guess that's kinda cool" (Buffy using Faith to get the snake to chase
her). The Buffyverse finales usually give me at least one big "wow"
moment, be it the intensity of the emotions of "Prophecy Girl" or a
more literal kind of surprise. "Graduation Day II" entertains, but it
doesn't surprise me. (The Drink Me Scene doesn't do a tremendous deal
for me, for whatever reason, although I recognize that it's good.)
The only other finale that contains no real surprises is "Prltz
Glrb" (and "Primeval," if that counts), and while GDII is a
considerably better episode than those are, it's in the same category
for me.
> Also on S3D6, I think it's a little odd that Spike is on the disc label,
> considering he was only in one S3 episode (admittedly a great one), and it
> came like four discs ago. I think Giles should have gotten a disc, or
> else the Mayor. But at least Spike has his shirt on.
That made me assume that he's somehow re-emerge to be part of the
final two-parter.
> About S3 in general, I still think it's my favorite season. As I
> mentioned in the S3D5 thread, it lacks any single unambiguously classic
> episode like Innocence or OMWF; but it does have the best run of
> consistently Good to Excellent episodes, and the fewest low points. This
> leads to my old half-joking theory that the odd-numbered seasons (except
> maybe S1) are the most consistent, while the even-numbered seasons tend to
> have wild combinations of classic episodes and serious disappointments.
Not my experience at all, unless you allow "consistent" to mean
"consistently not as interesting as it could be" for S1 and 5. My
second favorite season is Season Six, and it feels like S3 to me - a
steady string of good stuff with a few forays into "really good," and
only one suck-bomb amongst the twenty-one. Maybe I should propose a
theory involving three-year cycles. Nah.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1185929575.0...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Taking stock matters I think, but it's the welling warmth and near
> romanticizing of a time nearing its end that takes over - a sense that I can
> relate to having experienced something much like it in the final days of my
> high school senior year. One of the sweetest things about the episode is
> simply giving everybody a brief moment of easy happiness. Hell, even
> Jonathon gets a beautiful date. It's a gift to the characters and to an
> audience that doesn't want its heroes to suffer *all* of the time.
Now I'm reminded of the comment that Marti only writes "fanfic," good
and bad. At the time I dismissed the argument as meaningless, given
that having an episode of the show be fanfic is a contradiction in
terms. Which is still true. But I think what the people who hold
that view may have been trying to argue is that some episodes, like
"The Prom," feel like gifts to the audience. On a show like BTVS,
giving the die-hards who love their characters and what them to be
happy what they want is rare enough that it's associated more with
fanfic than with the actual show. The rarity of a perfect moment like
this makes it stand out as something special, almost because it's
touching and crowd-pleasing after a fun and "slight" hour.
> But beneath it all, one knows it's still just a respite.
And that's part of the difference between good writing and pandering.
> Willow: We got in. Maybe we should dance before we get besieged, bedeviled,
> or beheaded or something.
> Oz: It's not gonna happen.
> Willow: You're not even a little nervous?
> Oz: You think Buffy is going to let us down?
>
> Oz's character is deliberately constructed to be somewhat enigmatic - hard
> to see into his emotional center. But once in a while little things sneak
> through. Had you really thought of him having that kind of confidence in
> Buffy before? Faith in Buffy. Even Willow doesn't so easily get to that
> level of confidence. Of course, in the prior episode, he watched Buffy
> stand up for Willow and come through for her. And he personally knows her
> heart for standing by him, the werewolf that could have been by all rights
> slain. Indeed, he's seen a lot over the last couple of years. He's usually
> been more the witness than the participant, and may be best positioned of
> the inner core to objectively appreciate what Buffy's done. A fitting
> choice, I think, to so simply express his faith in her.
Hmm. I'm attuned enough to the later seasons that I tend to think of
that as Xander's role, or at least the one that he'd eventually grow
into. The observer who sees everything, the normal guy at some level
of peace with himself (although of course Xander will never be Oz-like
in his tranquility), and the one who believes in Buffy. Basically,
we'll see him in that general role pretty soon, in "The Freshman." At
the S2/S3 point in the show's life, maybe someone who doesn't have all
those gross emotional problems or a somewhat twisted obsession with
our hero was needed as a witness. The thing is, I'm having a hard
time pinning that down as a particular trait of Oz's beyond this
episode. As you say, he's deliberately kept too enigmatic to be a
proto-Xander.
> Of course Jonathon provides the greatest testament.
Even if people can't spell his name.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> work out a way to cope with the hundreds of things we know are wrong
> with this relationship. I am a little bit burned out by the end of
> the season, though, and I think you'll find that most people found a
its where the reality of tv network schedules intrude
unless they brought in angel as midseason series
they were doomed to have hang around until the end of season iii
even though the break up had to occur at the beginning of season iii
hence the year long break up-make up-break up melodrama
> > I like the little bit between Xander and Buffy right before she goes for
> > Faith. "I just don't want to lose you." "I won't get hurt." "That's not
> > what I mean." Buffy just glares at him, understanding his point but not
> > caring. She's entirely willing to be lost, if that's what it takes to
> > save Angel. Or if that's what it takes to vent her hatred of Faith. The
> > little "lost" sticker on the mirror doesn't feel as heavy-handed as it
> > probably should.
>
> It's a quick and efficient moment for the show too. We understand
> what's at stake, and Buffy to a degree does too. Spending more time
> than the episode does dwelling on it outside the context of the scenes
also end of season vi when willow announces willow doesnt live here anymore
> Have we delved into analyzing exactly what Faith meant with her very
> last line before falling? It sounds great, but I'm not quite sure
> what she's going for.
eh? faith knows buffy wants to feed faith to angel
faith times her fall to disappear in the night so she cant
also faith had been trying to drag buffy into the darkside since bad girls
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
One Bit Shy
news:1186242994....@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Have we delved into analyzing exactly what Faith meant with her very
> last line before falling? It sounds great, but I'm not quite sure
> what she's going for.
I've always assumed Faith was referring to her walk on the dark side with
the Mayor and that Buffy would have gotten a charge out of doing it herself.
I believe it goes to the season long notion of Faith and Buffy being
reflections of each other where they look into their hidden selves when they
look at each other. Along the way, both have claimed to know what the other
truly wants or feels or is foolishly missing out on.
OBS
One Bit Shy
Oh, I agree. I promoted Xander as witness in S7, but I don't think he can
fit that role in the early seasons when he's so busy mooning after or
squabbling with Buffy. And there's the whole thing about being Buffy's
protector too. Xander's too engaged in events with too many pig-headed
opionions to just see and appreciate.
Though there have been hints at the possibility. NKABOTFD and WSWB both
have moments of Xander watching Buffy and simply understanding what others
aren't. Actually, now that I think of it, I recall thinking back in S1 that
early Xander was arguably more observant about people than Willow. Willow's
passed him by since then. Maybe Xander just got side tracked for a while.
(I tend to think of Xander as ADHD and periodically going off his meds. The
scene left out of The Zeppo is him dosing up on Ritalin after a long
absence.)
> The thing is, I'm having a hard
> time pinning that down as a particular trait of Oz's beyond this
> episode. As you say, he's deliberately kept too enigmatic to be a
> proto-Xander.
It could be there, but he doesn't express himself. No, I don't think that's
a series function for Oz, though in retrospect maybe it should have been to
give something more to his role. It does stand out this episode as the
Scooby validation of Buffy's role.
>> Of course Jonathon provides the greatest testament.
>
> Even if people can't spell his name.
Just checking to see if you were paying attention.
OK, lame comeback I know. Some days I just miss... and that one actually
kind of annoys me.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> fit that role in the early seasons when he's so busy mooning after or
> squabbling with Buffy. And there's the whole thing about being Buffy's
> protector too. Xander's too engaged in events with too many pig-headed
> opionions to just see and appreciate.
theres a simpsons episode where lisa realizes she has the simpson gene
and anticipates her brain will self destruct
so we get the flowers from algernon
till she discovers its a y chromosome thing
and she can be lisa and not just a simpson
xander has to learn he can be himself and not just another harris
and that doesnt happen until sometime after his failure to wed
by season vii xander has reached a peace with himself
he knows he can be other than his parents
and hes not a superhero but doesnt need to be one either
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-6923B...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> Oh, I agree. I promoted Xander as witness in S7, but I don't think he
>> can
>> fit that role in the early seasons when he's so busy mooning after or
>> squabbling with Buffy. And there's the whole thing about being Buffy's
>> protector too. Xander's too engaged in events with too many pig-headed
>> opionions to just see and appreciate.
>
> theres a simpsons episode where lisa realizes she has the simpson gene
> and anticipates her brain will self destruct
> so we get the flowers from algernon
> till she discovers its a y chromosome thing
> and she can be lisa and not just a simpson
>
> xander has to learn he can be himself and not just another harris
> and that doesnt happen until sometime after his failure to wed
>
> by season vii xander has reached a peace with himself
> he knows he can be other than his parents
> and hes not a superhero but doesnt need to be one either
I believe S7 parallels S3 a lot in how it's centered on character self
identity. But where S3 is about choosing identity, S7 is about living with
it. So, for example, Willow aspired to be a "bad ass Wiccan" in S3. In S7
she has to come to terms with actually being one.
For Xander, I think your description is pretty good for what he has become
in S7. My problem is that I struggle to see the becoming. At least in S7.
Is it that much different than post butt-monkey S5? My issue is especially
in regards to post-Hells Bells. His personal crisis that episode certainly
brought sharp focus to his insecurities about growing up as another Harris.
(Though Anya's part shouldn't be discounted.) That's fine. I like that a
lot. Then what? How exactly does he come to be at peace with that and
realize he need not be like his parents?
I'm not seeing it. That's one of my S7 issues where the idea is right, but
the telling of it is rushed past. It's as if Hells Bells (or perhaps his
subsequent conversation with Anya) is the end point, with its revelations to
Xander somehow automatically putting him in the right place - even though
the event itself paralyzed him, leaving him in the clutches of his parent's
trap.
Or maybe I'm just asking too much. Your description remains apt however it
happened.
OBS
bookworm
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> For Xander, I think your description is pretty good for what he has become
> in S7. My problem is that I struggle to see the becoming. At least in S7.
> Is it that much different than post butt-monkey S5? My issue is especially
> in regards to post-Hells Bells. His personal crisis that episode certainly
> brought sharp focus to his insecurities about growing up as another Harris.
> (Though Anya's part shouldn't be discounted.) That's fine. I like that a
> lot. Then what? How exactly does he come to be at peace with that and
> realize he need not be like his parents?
Grave? Stopping Willow?
My bigger problem with Hell's Bells is, that there is no build-up to it.
It just clashes on the viewer as it does on Anya. It's not an organic
character development (except "I'll never tell"), but a random
"we-have-to-mess-up-these-two".
bookworm
Michael Ikeda
news:46B58F4...@no-log.org:
Among other things, Xander concealing the engagement for months (with
increasingly implausible excuses for doing so) could be considered a
warning sign.
One Bit Shy
news:46B58F4...@no-log.org...
> One Bit Shy schrieb:
>> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
>
>> For Xander, I think your description is pretty good for what he has
>> become
>> in S7. My problem is that I struggle to see the becoming. At least in
>> S7.
>> Is it that much different than post butt-monkey S5? My issue is
>> especially
>> in regards to post-Hells Bells. His personal crisis that episode
>> certainly
>> brought sharp focus to his insecurities about growing up as another
>> Harris.
>> (Though Anya's part shouldn't be discounted.) That's fine. I like that
>> a
>> lot. Then what? How exactly does he come to be at peace with that and
>> realize he need not be like his parents?
>
> Grave? Stopping Willow?
How does that relate to Xander's fear of growing up like his parents?
> My bigger problem with Hell's Bells is, that there is no build-up to it.
> It just clashes on the viewer as it does on Anya. It's not an organic
> character development (except "I'll never tell"), but a random
> "we-have-to-mess-up-these-two".
I believe that Xander's insecurities are amply supported over an extended
period, plus nearer term doubts about the wedding. By themselves they
wouldn't have stopped the wedding - Xander seemed to have steeled himself to
go through with it. It took the shock of supposedly experiencing his future
self to trigger walking out. The shock isn't enough by itself either.
(Well, maybe for that day. Being worked over by magic like that can really
take it out of you. But it wouldn't last.) That shock depends on Xander's
established insecurities and somewhat cold feet - two factors working
together.
What repeatedly gets missed in the Xander-centric view of what happened is
that Anya is at least as much responsible for it as Xander. Hells Bells
isn't just about Xander's cold feet. It's also about Anya's failure to face
up to her demon legacy and having that past finally catch up to her. As
much as Anya had been humanized by Xander's influence, she still idealized
her demon past and seemed rather short of a human moral foundation. The man
who worked his mojo on Xander did so deliberately to drive Xander away in
order to punish Anya for what she had done as a vengeance demon. A
calculated attack by an enemy of Anya - not by Xander. Xander was a victim
in Hells Bells too.
The idea for both Xander and Anya, I believe, is that neither were ready for
that marriage. Both needed to confront their true inner selves and overcome
their "demons" before they could truly and fully commit their lives to
another. (With no guarantee at this point that either could succeed.) This
confrontation with their inner selves must be done in order to complete
their personal great journeys as well. Marriage served as avoidance by
both. They were not to get off that easy. Indeed, the suggestion is that
marriage at that point would have made things worse.
I'm less certain how well Anya's part may have been set up over the long
term. The brief S3 portion of her role is fine - she's still insisting that
she'll get her powers back then. I don't know about S4 and S5 though, and
am interested in looking at her attitude then with this in mind. S6, when
the writers know what's coming, quite strongly emphasizes how Anya has not
let go of her demon past. So much so that it's actually kind of amusing how
people didn't see that as portent for trouble. Halfrak exists that season
to serve as a mirror to Anya - showing the truth of Anya's unrepentant demon
side. It culminates at the wedding when there is a literal human/demon
divide where each sit on their side of the aisle and ultimately do battle
with each other.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:13bcbmm...@news.supernews.com:
> "bookworm" <book...@no-log.org> wrote in message
> news:46B58F4...@no-log.org...
>> One Bit Shy schrieb:
>>> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
>>
>>> For Xander, I think your description is pretty good for what
>>> he has become
>>> in S7. My problem is that I struggle to see the becoming. At
>>> least in S7.
>>> Is it that much different than post butt-monkey S5? My issue
>>> is especially
>>> in regards to post-Hells Bells. His personal crisis that
>>> episode certainly
>>> brought sharp focus to his insecurities about growing up as
>>> another Harris.
>>> (Though Anya's part shouldn't be discounted.) That's fine. I
>>> like that a
>>> lot. Then what? How exactly does he come to be at peace with
>>> that and realize he need not be like his parents?
I don't think he finishes that process in S7. He does come to the
conclusion that breaking off the wedding was about much more than a
momentary panic, that he simply wasn't ready to get married. And
he seems to become more content in general about who he is as a
person. But I don't think that he's finished working his way
through the insecurities.
At any rate, it isn't an urgent question in S7 because Xander
doesn't quite get into a romantic relationship serious enough for
his insecurities to really matter.
(Perhaps if Anya had survived the final battle...)
>>
>> Grave? Stopping Willow?
>
> How does that relate to Xander's fear of growing up like his
> parents?
>
Not directly, but it probably makes him feel a bit more content
about who he is, and is a reminder that he's more than what his
parents made him.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >>> that and realize he need not be like his parents?
>
> I don't think he finishes that process in S7. He does come to the
> conclusion that breaking off the wedding was about much more than a
> momentary panic, that he simply wasn't ready to get married. And
a big chunk occurs on kingsman bluff
whn xander realizes that hes not utterly worthless
and its all his fault
xander harris will never be the brightest kid in the bunch
or a hero or mr wonderfulness
but he does eventually realize that he is himself
not just a harris
he might become a drunk but doesnt have to become a drunk
he might choose a loveless marriage but he doesnt have to
its not that he is better than his parents
but he realizes he can choose to be other than his parents
> > How does that relate to Xander's fear of growing up like his
> > parents?
> >
>
> Not directly, but it probably makes him feel a bit more content
> about who he is, and is a reminder that he's more than what his
> parents made him.
up to that point he has been accepting complete blame
with anyanka happy to completely blame him as well
and running away with jonath-n and andrew he considers himself a total failure
but then he realizes he might be able to do something about willow
and makes the attempt
and anyanka is confronted that if she had had her way with him
willow wouldve destroyed the world
xnader saved the word with his mouth
with words from his mouth
Stephen Tempest
>At any rate, it isn't an urgent question in S7 because Xander
>doesn't quite get into a romantic relationship serious enough for
>his insecurities to really matter.
>
>(Perhaps if Anya had survived the final battle...)
It'll be interesting to see how his relationship with Renee
progresses, and if it'll be an issue there. So far he *does* seem to
be playing it rather coolly when she's practically throwing herself at
him - so maybe he is gunshy. Or maybe it's a chain of command thing,
just to complicate matters for him even further.
Stephen
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
[re: the exact spot where the arrow hits Angel]
> But they're not main characters. Main characters are also less
> flammable.
The classic example being Darla and Drusilla, in Redefinition, who survive
enough burning gasoline to kill a score of nameless vamps. But Angel's
durability isn't the part that amuses me. Instead it's the reminder of
ME's shaky grasp of anatomy. A lot of stakings are staged according to
the myth that the heart is located in the left half of the chest. As you
know, the heart is really located in the center, though tilted to the left
(just like my politics, yuk yuk yuk). They did a good job showing Faith's
arrow missing Angel's heart, but when they want to show a heart actually
getting hit, they aren't as careful.
> Have we delved into analyzing exactly what Faith meant with her very
> last line before falling? It sounds great, but I'm not quite sure
> what she's going for.
I'd tend towards OBS's interpretation, that Faith meant her walk on the
dark side with the Mayor. Or it might have been a little broader -- she
might have been thinking of all the good times she had, before and after
joining the Mayor (on unannounced walkabouts, perhaps) that Buffy missed
out because she was being good.
>> About S3 in general, I still think it's my favorite season. As I
>> mentioned in the S3D5 thread, it lacks any single unambiguously classic
>> episode like Innocence or OMWF; but it does have the best run of
>> consistently Good to Excellent episodes, and the fewest low points. This
>> leads to my old half-joking theory that the odd-numbered seasons (except
>> maybe S1) are the most consistent, while the even-numbered seasons tend to
>> have wild combinations of classic episodes and serious disappointments.
>
> Not my experience at all, unless you allow "consistent" to mean
> "consistently not as interesting as it could be" for S1 and 5.
Sure, that works. It's the consistency that my theory is concerned with,
not the actual level of quality. I see S7 pretty much the same way....
Anyway, it's only a half-serious theory, so I'm not concerned with
defending it. I think it first came about because my least favorite
episodes of S2 and S6 are clustered together (first half of S2, middle
third of S6), and the clustering made the variation in quality seem more
severe than in seasons where my least-faves are more spread out.
> My
> second favorite season is Season Six, and it feels like S3 to me - a
> steady string of good stuff with a few forays into "really good," and
> only one suck-bomb amongst the twenty-one. Maybe I should propose a
> theory involving three-year cycles. Nah.
My newest theory involves a seven year cycle. I'm just waiting to see how
good season 11 is before I publish.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> My bigger problem with Hell's Bells is, that there is no build-up to it.
> It just clashes on the viewer as it does on Anya. It's not an organic
> character development (except "I'll never tell"), but a random
> "we-have-to-mess-up-these-two".
I'd say rather that there was a good amount of build-up, but its execution
was mostly unsuccessful. Xander's doubts were generally portrayed as the
standard pre-wedding jitters that every TV groom gets; and since Xander is
so often used as comic relief, the audience naturally tends to see his
prenuptial tension as nothing more than an easy laugh on the way to wedded
bliss. If only they had broken through the comic relief barrier and made
at least one of those pre-wedding jitters scenes a little less standard
and more personally important to Xander, the whole thing would have felt a
lot righter.
(Though for all I know, this could have been deliberate -- ME presented us
with plenty of hints but in such a way that the viewer wouldn't take them
seriously except in hindsight. But if it was deliberate, then I'm not
sure they made the right decision.)
One Bit Shy
news:13bd1ea...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer bookworm <book...@no-log.org> wrote:
>>
>> My bigger problem with Hell's Bells is, that there is no build-up to it.
>> It just clashes on the viewer as it does on Anya. It's not an organic
>> character development (except "I'll never tell"), but a random
>> "we-have-to-mess-up-these-two".
>
> I'd say rather that there was a good amount of build-up, but its execution
> was mostly unsuccessful. Xander's doubts were generally portrayed as the
> standard pre-wedding jitters that every TV groom gets; and since Xander is
> so often used as comic relief, the audience naturally tends to see his
> prenuptial tension as nothing more than an easy laugh on the way to wedded
> bliss. If only they had broken through the comic relief barrier and made
> at least one of those pre-wedding jitters scenes a little less standard
> and more personally important to Xander, the whole thing would have felt a
> lot righter.
>
> (Though for all I know, this could have been deliberate -- ME presented us
> with plenty of hints but in such a way that the viewer wouldn't take them
> seriously except in hindsight. But if it was deliberate, then I'm not
> sure they made the right decision.)
This is one of my harping subjects, so feel free to ignore me. Hell,
everybody else does. <g>
But I don't think that it was intended that foreshadowing related to Xander
be sufficient to cause him to walk out. On Xander's side, the show pretty
much relied on Xander's established insecurities plus a little normal
pre-wedding jitters to be adequate foundation for his decision *if* there is
additional impetus. That added prod came in the form of the shock
experience of living a horrible future. (The shock value shouldn't be
underestimated IMO. It was a really, really bad experience that Xander felt
was true to his nature, and seemed real, not just hypothetical. I struggle
to imagine anyone shrugging that off.)
The complication is that the shock experience didn't come purely out of him.
It was a calculated attack by an enemy of Anya, and represented Anya's demon
past catching up with her. Xander walking out is how Anya's penalty is
delivered, but the penalty is for her vengeance demon legacy and failure to
repent for it.
Anya's part in leading up to it is, I believe, foreshadowed fairly heavily,
in a sense likely not to be recognized except in retrospect. We were
beguiled into thinking it's just Anya being Anya. But Anya being Anya was
always partly built on an unrepentent evil background, and as the wedding
approached she increasingly seemed to actually celebrate that history, and
we are increasingly shown (especially through Halfrak) what that side of her
really is. Some pretty nasty people got invited to that wedding by Anya. I
think those were the greater signs of an unresolved issue spelling trouble.
I've always been puzzled by the generally Xander-centric reaction to that
episode when it was constructed to (and led up to) highlight major issues
with both Xander and Anya both. The demon/human division among the wedding
guests that plays such a large part in the background to the episode is
aimed at the problem of Anya's heritage. Xander's magical trip to the
future didn't limit itself to Xander's failures. It also highlighted
problems with Anya, such as her fear of aging and struggle to accept
Xander's dedication to Buffy's fight. Her infidelity I don't think was
aimed so much at the potential of infidelity, but rather that she would turn
to a demon to do it - signifying her continued draw towards the demon world.
And, of course, when Anya does experience the big setback she readily turns
to her demon background - just as she did a thousand years earlier. Her
core problem hasn't been fixed.
But evidently the duality of Xander's and Anya's responsibility doesn't come
across to others the way it does to me. Hells Bells appears to be one of
the more disliked episodes of the BtVS run, while it is one of my most
cherished.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:D5ednbg9AIub0Svb...@rcn.net...
I think I'm mostly OK with that. (It certainly isn't one of my greater
issues with the series.) In some ways it's just an academic interest. It's
just that S7 is constructed in part to show the characters coming to terms
with who they are - as a global theme. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I see
it as a parallel to S3. In S3 people choose their identities. In S7 they
learn to live with that choice. I guess I'm looking for process where the
series is settling for a snapshot. S7 deceived me sometimes. With Willow,
they chose to focus on letting go of Tara being her big hangup - but in a
context that made it look like they were dealing with Willow's connection to
Warren. As it turns out, Warren isn't really an issue with Willow - or at
least one not addressed. Back to Xander, they do a pretty decent job of
having him reconcile with Anya. They just don't spend time on the question
of him growing up like his parents.
> At any rate, it isn't an urgent question in S7 because Xander
> doesn't quite get into a romantic relationship serious enough for
> his insecurities to really matter.
>
> (Perhaps if Anya had survived the final battle...)
Heh, well that opens another can of worms. I'm not entirely happy with the
hint they may have been heading back together. But that's too far afield
for this discussion. And it didn't happen anyway.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > last line before falling? It sounds great, but I'm not quite sure
> > what she's going for.
>
> I'd tend towards OBS's interpretation, that Faith meant her walk on the
> dark side with the Mayor. Or it might have been a little broader -- she
> might have been thinking of all the good times she had, before and after
> joining the Mayor (on unannounced walkabouts, perhaps) that Buffy missed
> out because she was being good.
take a walk on the wild side
hey buffy take a walk on the wild side
and the slayer girls go doo dodoo dodoodoodoo
(and all thats says about faiths sexuality)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
is renee eighteen yet?
bookworm
>
> But evidently the duality of Xander's and Anya's responsibility doesn't come
> across to others the way it does to me. Hells Bells appears to be one of
> the more disliked episodes of the BtVS run, while it is one of my most
> cherished.
fuck, I always hate it, when good argumentation makes me like an episode
more. Once, I read a review on why "as you were" is so great, and it
went up a little higher on my scale, just a little... I'm so weak (or
maybe it's the new-perspective-thing)
bookworm
burt...@hotmail.com
> My bigger problem with Hell's Bells is, that there is no build-up to it.
> It just clashes on the viewer as it does on Anya. It's not an organic
> character development (except "I'll never tell"), but a random
> "we-have-to-mess-up-these-two".
That's because it's not about Xander and Anya.
Xander leaving Anya at the altar leads Anya to comfort sex with Spike,
which leads to the revelation of the Buffy/Spike relationship to
Buffy's friends, which leads to Spike trying going to Buffy to try
restart their relationship (because Buffy "doesn't have to hide it
anymore"), which leads to him trying to rape her, which leads him to
go to Africa to get the chip out... whoops, I mean, to get his soul
back.
The reason that "Hell's Bells" isn't an organic character development
for Xander is because the writers didn't give a shit about Xander when
they wrote it. It was all done to further Spike's story - that was the
only purpose.
Mike Zeares
> it off when the girl starts assuming more commitment than he's comfortable
> with? Buffy starts asking for a drawer in Angel's place, plans to put up
> mirrors, assumes he'll go the prom with her, and then bam! Heartbreaking
> sewer talk.
I vaguely remember commenting on that at the time. When Buffy started
talking about drawers and mirrors, Angel got the look. The "Uh-oh,
RUN AWAY!" look that commitment-shy guys get when their girls start
making nesting sounds. The relationship was doomed, Doomed, DOOMED as
soon as the words "drawer for my stuff" left Buffy's cute little mouth
(yeah, I thought she was super-cute in that scene too).
-- MZ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Mike Zeares <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
the relationship was doomed a year and half earlier
when they discovered sex can desoul angel
buffys comments showed she was in denial
Angelica
It's built up from the beginning of the season. Xander insists the
engagement be kept secret for months, for no good reason whatsoever.
Xander looks constipated every time someone mentions the wedding, etc.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
wrote:
its built up from restless
two years earlier
Michael Ikeda
news:8uncb3hqir6sis6hk...@4ax.com:
I tend to suspect that Xander doesn't yet realize that Renee has a
crush on him.
Note that Renee herself seems to still be in denial about this.
Mike Zeares
anges <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> the relationship was doomed a year and half earlier
> when they discovered sex can desoul angel
>
> buffys comments showed she was in denial
Good point.
-- Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality
"appropriate" threads, but this time let's follow the discussion and
see where it leads us.
On Aug 5, 11:53 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:13bd1ea...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
> > In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer bookworm <bookw...@no-log.org> wrote:
>
> >> My bigger problem with Hell's Bells is, that there is no build-up to it.
> >> It just clashes on the viewer as it does on Anya. It's not an organic
> >> character development (except "I'll never tell"), but a random
> >> "we-have-to-mess-up-these-two".
>
> > I'd say rather that there was a good amount of build-up, but its execution
> > was mostly unsuccessful. Xander's doubts were generally portrayed as the
> > standard pre-wedding jitters that every TV groom gets; and since Xander is
> > so often used as comic relief, the audience naturally tends to see his
> > prenuptial tension as nothing more than an easy laugh on the way to wedded
> > bliss. If only they had broken through the comic relief barrier and made
> > at least one of those pre-wedding jitters scenes a little less standard
> > and more personally important to Xander, the whole thing would have felt a
> > lot righter.
I'm with Chris and bw on this point. In retrospect, the series made a
very concerted attempt to set up HB. Yet it failed miserably to make
it seem like anything more than a contrivance to ensure that everyone
stays depressed that I can only describe the build-up with my favorite
nonsensical adjective: ass-hatted.
> But I don't think that it was intended that foreshadowing related to Xander
> be sufficient to cause him to walk out. On Xander's side, the show pretty
> much relied on Xander's established insecurities plus a little normal
> pre-wedding jitters to be adequate foundation for his decision *if* there is
> additional impetus. That added prod came in the form of the shock
> experience of living a horrible future.
That's why it feels like such a cheat. The show has focused almost
exclusively on Xander's jitters, with a light touch of family-related
insecurities and such in the background. Therefore, the viewer has no
reason to believe that anything would be sufficient to cause him to
walk out, leading the show to use an outside power to "force" him to
behave in a basically uncharacteristic way.
> The complication is that the shock experience didn't come purely out of him.
> It was a calculated attack by an enemy of Anya, and represented Anya's demon
> past catching up with her. Xander walking out is how Anya's penalty is
> delivered, but the penalty is for her vengeance demon legacy and failure to
> repent for it.
>
> Anya's part in leading up to it is, I believe, foreshadowed fairly heavily,
> in a sense likely not to be recognized except in retrospect. We were
> beguiled into thinking it's just Anya being Anya. But Anya being Anya was
> always partly built on an unrepentent evil background, and as the wedding
> approached she increasingly seemed to actually celebrate that history, and
> we are increasingly shown (especially through Halfrak) what that side of her
> really is. Some pretty nasty people got invited to that wedding by Anya. I
> think those were the greater signs of an unresolved issue spelling trouble.
Elsewhere you muse on whether Anya's part is set up well or not. I
think there's a distinction between Anya's lack of remorse for her
past actions as a demon, which is one problem, and the way she
actively endorses and seeks continued relationships with demons, which
is enough of an extension of the idea to almost qualify as a separate
issue. The former is a fundamental part of her character, so one
could say there's been years of setup (and it's something that does
ultimately get paid off in a way that's set up by but not in any way
informed by "Hell's Bells," if that makes any sense). The latter is
never alluded to, as far as I can tell (it was something I was
watching in particular last time I watched S6), prior to "Wrecked,"
when it suddenly emerges as part of the ass-hatted attempt to set up
"Hell's Bells."
(Just thinking as I type here, maybe I would've liked it better sans
the demon family stuff. Anya's history would then become, as in S5,
something that she'd simply brushed off as irrelevant, easily ignored,
while pursuing her human life. So she'd have completely left behind
her vengeance and assumed that was the end of it, until
FakeFutureXander shows up. It's the kind of angle that "Triangle"
could have mined if that had been that episode's agenda, and it could
be done more tragically here. Or maybe I'd still dislike it. ¿Quien
sabe?)
> I've always been puzzled by the generally Xander-centric reaction to that
> episode when it was constructed to (and led up to) highlight major issues
> with both Xander and Anya both.
The problem for me with that approach is twofold; first of all, it
bothers me a little that the "major issues" aren't anywhere near
equivalent. More important is the fact that the decision-making parts
of the episode all center around Xander, following what he experiences
during the course of the hour. At the climax of "Hell's Bells," he is
the one who walks away, knowing all the facts, and the reasons he
gives center around his issues rather than hers. It's not so
surprising that everyone's drawn to a Xander-oriented viewpoint.
I like (well, better than the alternative, anyway) the idea that the
real center of the wedding fiasco is Anya being haunted by a lifetime
of carefree vengeance. The problem is that neither the way HB is
presented nor the series as a whole seem to be supporting that
interpretation, at least not to me. In the conversations about the
event in subsequent episodes, no one even seems to consider doing
anything other than basically holding Xander responsible. Yes, I'm
aware that what the characters say is not absolute truth, and that
they don't always understand everything; I now kinda expect to see
people try to turn this argument against me when we discuss my
appreciation of Willow's mid-S6 story. But the show is remarkably
consistent in presenting this viewpoint. You can ask any character in
the show who knows about it, and their description will invaribaly (as
far as I can remember) be the same: Xander walked out, Xander's the
one who wasn't ready, Xander's the one who hurt Anya, Xander's the one
who fucked things up. And even when Anya is eventually made to face
up to the evil that's still part of her at the end of HB, episodes
like "Beneath You" and "Selfless" don't seem anxious to incorporate
the FakeFutureXander attack as part of the Anya story.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
> I was figuring we'd go over these topics once we got to, you know, the
> "appropriate" threads, but this time let's follow the discussion and
> see where it leads us.
I've already forgotten how we got to this topic here. I've expanded on a
lot here, but I'm not sure I should take it any further. I haven't watched
S6 since your earlier run through and am not inclined to review it again
until you get to it again. Even I have an overdose point.
Stay depressed? That's all? From my point of view, Anya and Xander both
were confronted with core parts of their selves that desperately needed to
be dealt with. Legitimate and important aspects IMO. For each in their own
way they represent obstacles in their personal journeys that need to be
overcome. The marriage is used as the mechanism to force them out into the
open because they really shouldn't get married when Xander is still
subconsciously resigned to the inevitability of acting like his parents, and
Anya is still just one rejection away from being a vengeance demon again. I
personally find the event dramatic and entertaining, and the exploration of
their personal issues tremendously character advancing.
Xander gets the greater detail within the episode, but Anya ultimately gets
the greater impact. This is when Anya's personal journey suddenly takes off
like a rocket after close to 3 years of a kind of easy drifting that belied
the enormity of changing from 1000 years of grand evil vengeance to loving
girl friend, almost wife. The run from Hells Bells to Selfless is one of my
favorite character journeys of the series.
That run also brings a great deal more depth to the parallel with Spike's
redemption arc. There had always been a parallel - forcefully denied their
demon powers, obsessively drawn to a human love, using that human as their
model for acting properly in a human world, attempting that more to please
their human love than because they wanted to be human themselves. Spike's
story, though, was filled with high drama, strenous effort, and repeated
failure. Anya's slid along so comparatively easily that it was easy to miss
the parallel entirely.
Now their characters reach a great crisis in their journeys at roughly the
same time, throwing their accomplishments to date and their lives into
peril. I love the contrast of their journeys at this point as Spike seeks a
human soul to feel real humanity, while Anya, paradoxically, must be a demon
again to feel her humanity. I think it's wonderful that Spike and Anya
connect persoanlly in this stretch as well - sharing their struggle with
words, booze and sex - and then later have Anya be the first to recognize
the soul in Spike.
This is BtVS at its best for me. And Hells Bells is what opens the door.
Anya doesn't have her great journey of redemption without it.
>> But I don't think that it was intended that foreshadowing related to
>> Xander
>> be sufficient to cause him to walk out. On Xander's side, the show
>> pretty
>> much relied on Xander's established insecurities plus a little normal
>> pre-wedding jitters to be adequate foundation for his decision *if* there
>> is
>> additional impetus. That added prod came in the form of the shock
>> experience of living a horrible future.
>
> That's why it feels like such a cheat. The show has focused almost
> exclusively on Xander's jitters, with a light touch of family-related
> insecurities and such in the background. Therefore, the viewer has no
> reason to believe that anything would be sufficient to cause him to
> walk out, leading the show to use an outside power to "force" him to
> behave in a basically uncharacteristic way.
To me you seem to be demanding overt proximate clues for something built
into Xander's nature. This isn't a detective story with a string of clues
pointing to the murder weapon. It's a character moment where the reminder
of what Xander is about is sufficient to explain his action. I watch his
future dream and think, yeah, that's so what Xander would fear. More
importantly, that dream brings to life for Xander what had previously been
unformed fears that he had furiously worked to repress. At that moment it
felt to him like a blinding truth about himself that he could no longer
avoid. And it seems very true to character for me. I don't need special
proximate clues to make that real.
Even so, the repeated evidence of pre-wedding jitters were sufficient to
alert the viewer to pay attention, that there could be trouble ahead, even
if we don't know what it is.
I don't know what your issue with an outside power is. This is BtVS. This
is Sunnydale. Demons and such are routinely used to represent and/or draw
out inner issues. This one offers double value by being the mechanism to
illustrate both Anya's and Xander's problems. And it seems adequately
explained to me by literally being Anya's past catching up with her.
Xander is marrying an ex-demon on a TV show about monsters. That a monster
would appear to disrupt the wedding is just about as obvious - almost
banal - turn of events as you could get. It's no more pulled out of a hat
than every other one episode monster the series has used.
The demon is acting maliciously to punish Anya. In that sense he forces the
nightmare upon Xander. (Anya does share responsibility for what happens
here.) But "force" is still somewhat a misnomer in that the content of the
nightmare is drawn straight from Xander's own fears.
Ultimately Xander is shown to realize that - as much as he reasonably could
so close to the discomfiting experience. But his problem is that, forced or
not, he concludes that the fear is true anyway. It wasn't a lie as Anya
tries to insist. From Xander's point of view it wasn't such a terrible
thing that happened. Oh, yeah, the mess of the wedding and Anya's hurt
feelings are terrible. But even so, it averted a worse disaster.
You and a ton of others don't seem to think that's true to Xander. I do.
That may be the heart of our difference of opinion. If so, adjusting the
foreshadowing wouldn't fix it.
I'll mostly have to defer response to that since one of my objectives in
watching through the series this time is to examine that aspect of Anya's
character development. It's a nuance I never examined in S4 and S5, and I
couldn't say now when exactly what happened in S6 prior to Hells Bells.
I can expand a little on what I was thinking with my musing that you
mention. I know that Anya rather idealized her demon past in S6. What I
don't recall is how she feels about her past in the earlier seasons. (Other
than the brief S3 period when she's so fond of relating her vengeance
triumphs. I don't consider that terribly meaningful, however, since she's
so new to her human self that her demon life remains nearly the only thing
she knows.) I'm not sure that she even thinks about it in S4 and S5. Which
wouldn't be terribly surprising since I suspect M.E. didn't work all this
out about Anya, or where they would take her until S6. If so, then they
have a different foundational starting point for her than with Xander - one
that lacks the same depth. There isn't a Restless segment for Anya. But
I'm not sure about that and want to see.
If that's true, however, then they need extra work in S6 to establish her
continued idealized view of her demon past. Independent of that, they'd
also want to establish how oblivious to that she is - setting up how blind
sided she is by the consequences brought home in Hells Bells. Aiming for
the wedding to be when everything comes to a head proves very useful for
this purpose. You mention how this part of the setup occurs over a
relatively short period. Let's see... that's six episodes starting with
Wrecked. That actually makes sense because that would naturally correspond
to when Anya would be reaching out to her old demon friends in the planning
for her wedding. This re-establishing of contacts (so that there's somebody
sitting on her side of the aisle) would act as a prompt for her to reminisce
fondly on her demon days.
Regarding your remark, "...it's something that does ultimately get paid off
in a way that's set up by but not in any way informed by 'Hell's Bells'..."
I sort of agree with that. Anya certainly does not comprehend the
significance of her lack of remorse and barely grasps that her past has
something to do with triggering the events on her wedding day - not enough
to accept any blame for it. There's no character growth for her here, and
the particular piece of her past causing the trouble is so arbitrary and
forgettable as to resonate not at all with her past or future self. That's
quite the contrast with Xander, who actually learns something about himself,
changes his immediate behavior as a result, and now understands better what
he needs to overcome in the future. Anya actually regresses to her ancient
response to rejection with no better understanding than she had 1000 years
earlier.
But Anya's story isn't the same as Xander's. Nor is it in the same place.
Xander's story is actually virtually over as far as BtVS is concerned. His
issue with following his parent's footsteps is his last great obstacle in
the series - aside from the side task of making peace with Anya. We don't
clearly see him overcome that - as I discussed a little in another post -
but, really, the main thing is seeing him understand it. The follow-up
would likely be dull in comparison and is probably OK to leave as assumed.
Anya's story, though, really takes off here. That makes Hells Bells
function in setting up that story rather momentous. But it also informs the
audience in the sense of bringing to their attention that this aspect of
Anya matters. That Anya's past has real consequences. One of the
persistent BtVS themes is that choices have consequences. The chickens
really do come home to roost. For a very long time Anya - and the
audience - has been deceived into thinking that this rule didn't apply to
Anya. Now we learn otherwise. That's also one of the themes of S6 - most
dramatically shown with Willow, who also has gone years seeming to avoid
real consequences.
> (Just thinking as I type here, maybe I would've liked it better sans
> the demon family stuff. Anya's history would then become, as in S5,
> something that she'd simply brushed off as irrelevant, easily ignored,
> while pursuing her human life. So she'd have completely left behind
> her vengeance and assumed that was the end of it, until
> FakeFutureXander shows up. It's the kind of angle that "Triangle"
> could have mined if that had been that episode's agenda, and it could
> be done more tragically here. Or maybe I'd still dislike it. ¿Quien
> sabe?)
Well, I like the demon family part, so there's no uncertainty on my part. I
think the demon/human divide at the wedding is great fun and a nice metaphor
for what's going on. And I really like Halfrak. Her function as the
reflection of Anya's vengeance demon self works well for me. And she
continues nicely in the closely related role of showing Anya what she's come
to hate about herself on the path to Selfless. Culminating in the beautiful
choice in Selfless to kill Halfrak rather than Anya - symbolically
destroying that aspect of Anya.
>> I've always been puzzled by the generally Xander-centric reaction to that
>> episode when it was constructed to (and led up to) highlight major issues
>> with both Xander and Anya both.
>
> The problem for me with that approach is twofold; first of all, it
> bothers me a little that the "major issues" aren't anywhere near
> equivalent.
I think they're balanced - just not symmetric. Their issues come to a head
at the same time, but are wildly different as to nature, effect, and
placement in each of their journeys. That's OK with me. It is a break-up
after all, signifying less compatibility between them than previously
thought. That they don't understand each other at this critical juncture is
part of the point. How stable really was their relationship? Can Xander be
Anya's teacher forever? Will sex solve everything forever? They need more
foundation than that. Which perhaps might be there to be found. I'm not
convinced they were on a path to finding it.
> More important is the fact that the decision-making parts
> of the episode all center around Xander, following what he experiences
> during the course of the hour. At the climax of "Hell's Bells," he is
> the one who walks away, knowing all the facts, and the reasons he
> gives center around his issues rather than hers. It's not so
> surprising that everyone's drawn to a Xander-oriented viewpoint.
Well, he wanted to and she didn't and Xander tries to gallantly take all the
blame onto himself. That's the story - and a lot of what makes it so
painful. That doesn't deny us the eyes to see the rest of the story.
Though I suppose the one that walks away always gets the blame.
> I like (well, better than the alternative, anyway) the idea that the
> real center of the wedding fiasco is Anya being haunted by a lifetime
> of carefree vengeance.
Just a reminder that I think responsibility is shared. Neither Anya's issue
nor Xander's issue is the real center. I emphasize Anya's part only because
I sense that it usually gets short shrift.
> The problem is that neither the way HB is
> presented nor the series as a whole seem to be supporting that
> interpretation, at least not to me. In the conversations about the
> event in subsequent episodes, no one even seems to consider doing
> anything other than basically holding Xander responsible. Yes, I'm
> aware that what the characters say is not absolute truth, and that
> they don't always understand everything;
The one who walks away always gets the blame. That's real world - and
natural for people to respond to what they can see. Xander probably doesn't
help his case any by proceeding to moon over Anya afterwards. But the
audience is offered a more complete view - given the chance to understand
more deeply. We can see Anya's conversations with Halfrak and understand
that her crisis goes considerably further than rejection by Xander. We
witness Xander's nightmare future like none of his friends do. There are
other nuances I believe, but I'm going to hold off on that.
One more big one, though, is the Entropy talk between Anya and Xander.
Xander misreads some things and doesn't frame his thoughts well - though he
really isn't given much of a chance with any framing. Anya is quite single
minded about establishing the rejection with certainty so that she can get
on with the vengeance. Momentarily she's taken aback by Xander's expression
of love, but as soon as it's clear that doesn't include an "I do", she has
no interest in understanding. Indeed, with the reveal that she's already
become a demon again, it's pretty clear that she wasn't there to understand
Xander.
That's not exactly emotional maturity on display. Rather we get a graphic
demonstration that all of her personal issues and impulsive responses to
them that made her a demon to begin with are still there in full force. "I
wish you were never born!" was uttered by an Anya that expected the wish to
be carried out by her demon powers. (Interesting that she chose the same
kind of wish that led to her losing her demon powers several years earlier.)
I think that ties back very well to what we were alerted to in Hells Bells -
that Anya had not let go of her demon side.
The irony in this is that the humanity that Xander instilled in Anya is what
ultimately saves her from dying a demon by Buffy's sword, and it's Xander's
choice in Hells Bells that puts her on her redemption path.
> I now kinda expect to see
> people try to turn this argument against me when we discuss my
> appreciation of Willow's mid-S6 story.
Not from me. I think we mostly agree on that, except maybe for some nuances
on follow-up.
> But the show is remarkably
> consistent in presenting this viewpoint. You can ask any character in
> the show who knows about it, and their description will invaribaly (as
> far as I can remember) be the same: Xander walked out, Xander's the
> one who wasn't ready, Xander's the one who hurt Anya, Xander's the one
> who fucked things up. And even when Anya is eventually made to face
> up to the evil that's still part of her at the end of HB, episodes
> like "Beneath You" and "Selfless" don't seem anxious to incorporate
> the FakeFutureXander attack as part of the Anya story.
But the outcome allows her to forgive Xander and reconcile. I have some
serious issues with the way Anya's post-Selfless story is handled, but it
does do that much. A reconciliation based more on changes within Anya than
within Xander IMO.
OBS
One Bit Shy
Well, read AOQ's response and feel happy about your original opinion again.
Heh.
This is a subject I've banged my head against before. I keep it up because
I so enjoy the phase of Anya's story kicked off by Hells Bells, and seem to
be the only guy in the world who thinks Xander made a wise choice. But I
fully recognize how badly so many feel about Xander's decision. There's no
getting past how strongly it feels like trashing his character to so many
people.
As You Were, incidentally, is another episode I tend to like better than
most. My general take on it is that it's constructed to show an exaggerated
viewpoint from Buffy's eyes. Sort of like how the Zeppo presents an
exaggerated view through Xander's eyes. I enjoy the cleverness of it.
There's another fun take that makes it all a carefully constructed plot by
Riley to get Buffy away from Spike. It's the kind of episode where you need
to come up with explanations like that because it's just way too sappy to
accept at face value.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "bookworm" <book...@no-log.org> wrote in message
> news:46b6c462$0$2258$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at...
> >
> >>
> >> But evidently the duality of Xander's and Anya's responsibility doesn't
> >> come
> >> across to others the way it does to me. Hells Bells appears to be one of
> >> the more disliked episodes of the BtVS run, while it is one of my most
> >> cherished.
> >
> > fuck, I always hate it, when good argumentation makes me like an episode
> > more. Once, I read a review on why "as you were" is so great, and it
> > went up a little higher on my scale, just a little... I'm so weak (or
> > maybe it's the new-perspective-thing)
>
> Well, read AOQ's response and feel happy about your original opinion again.
> Heh.
>
> This is a subject I've banged my head against before. I keep it up because
> I so enjoy the phase of Anya's story kicked off by Hells Bells, and seem to
> be the only guy in the world who thinks Xander made a wise choice. But I
but he did it badly
i think it was poor form to leave it to anya to announce it to everyone
> As You Were, incidentally, is another episode I tend to like better than
> most. My general take on it is that it's constructed to show an exaggerated
> viewpoint from Buffy's eyes. Sort of like how the Zeppo presents an
it goes back to the things that riley was telling buffy
in the replacement and elsewhere
riley was trying to tell buffy he didnt have some idealized image of her
that he was blind to her failings
he didnt love her for his idealization of her
he loved her for herself in totality
buffy on the other hand was only willing to deal with her ideal of riley
and when he didnt measure up to that
she got angry and resentful and her pride demanded it be all his fault
didnt let her see it wasnt about whose fault it was
but they were both imperfect and if they had a future it was through imperfection
in as you were the situation is reversed
and riley is actually near buffys ideal of him (except for being married)
and buffy is confronted with her own self image
which is considerably below her ideal for herself
riley does see she is dressed like traffic cone
he does see the cow on her head
and he does smell the smell
but since he always seen the whole buffy
and rather than being disappointed in where she is at
he accepts her
and helps her start to accept herself
arf meow arf - nsa fodder - not just jenine
Mark Myers
> "bookworm" <book...@no-log.org> wrote in message
> news:46b6c462$0$2258$91ce...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at...
> >
> >>
> >> But evidently the duality of Xander's and Anya's responsibility doesn't
> >> come
> >> across to others the way it does to me. Hells Bells appears to be one of
> >> the more disliked episodes of the BtVS run, while it is one of my most
> >> cherished.
> >
> > fuck, I always hate it, when good argumentation makes me like an episode
> > more. Once, I read a review on why "as you were" is so great, and it
> > went up a little higher on my scale, just a little... I'm so weak (or
> > maybe it's the new-perspective-thing)
>
> Well, read AOQ's response and feel happy about your original opinion again.
> Heh.
>
> This is a subject I've banged my head against before. I keep it up because
> I so enjoy the phase of Anya's story kicked off by Hells Bells, and seem to
> be the only guy in the world who thinks Xander made a wise choice. But I
> fully recognize how badly so many feel about Xander's decision. There's no
> getting past how strongly it feels like trashing his character to so many
> people.
You're not alone. I actaully find Anya a bit annoying in HB (partly for
inviting all those demons), though one can't help but feel for her at
the end. It is most likely that which colours many viewers judgement in
her favour and against Xander. But without this there'd be no Selfless,
which I sometimes have as my third favourite episode of the whole
series.
> As You Were, incidentally, is another episode I tend to like better than
> most. My general take on it is that it's constructed to show an exaggerated
> viewpoint from Buffy's eyes. Sort of like how the Zeppo presents an
> exaggerated view through Xander's eyes. I enjoy the cleverness of it.
AYW is great for many reasons. One is when Buffy leaves Spike's place at
the end, as she turns and leaves IMO you can see the weight lifting from
her shoulders (you can see it in SMG's performance, I mean). It's a
turning point in her journey back from the abyss. It's the start of the
climb back to humanity. It's one of the series great moments.
--
Mark Myers
usenet2 at mcm2002 dot f9 dot co dot uk
I call that a radical interpretation of the text.
One Bit Shy
news:1186461123.2...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> I've always been puzzled by the generally Xander-centric reaction to that
>> episode when it was constructed to (and led up to) highlight major issues
>> with both Xander and Anya both.
>
> The problem for me with that approach is twofold; first of all, it
> bothers me a little that the "major issues" aren't anywhere near
> equivalent.
It occurred to me after my prior post where an important difference in
perception might be between us. You refer to the lack of equivalence above
and go on to speak of how just Xander makes a decision and only Xander gets
blamed.
Is this a problem for you (and perhaps others) because you're focusing on
the problem of the wedding break-up itself, and see that Xander's the only
practical obstacle to it?
I don't want to discount the importance of the meddler from Anya's past in
causing the wedding to fail. If he hadn't shown up, the wedding would have
happened. But once he made his appearance, it's true that the fate of the
wedding rested on Xander's reaction to his own inner demons. He would make
the choice as drawn from his own insecurities and without regard to Anya.
(There may be an additional influence from Xander's subconscious awareness
that Anya hasn't let go of her demoness, but that's not necessary for where
I'm going with this.) So in that sense it is all Xander's doing.
But I think there's an illusion in that. Here is where Xander and Anya take
divergent paths to follow up on very different issues. The inability of
Xander to follow through with the wedding is directly representative of his
fear to grow up like his parents. For him, the wedding pretty much is the
issue.
The wedding is not the issue for Anya. Oh, she thinks it is. And it makes
her miserable. And everybody around assumes it is. And everybody in fandom
wails about the horrible thing Xander did to her. But all that's a
misdirect - much as you sense the addiction is a misdirect for Willow. The
wedding break-up didn't cause Anya's problems. It merely exposed them. She
can piss and moan and demand explanations until the winged monkeys fly home,
but it can't matter because her real problem is facing up to her demon
aspect. (And, as it turns out, her "selfless" problem.)
This is what I meant by the problems being balanced but not symmetric.
After the event sends them on their different paths, the wedding part of the
fall-out really does fall disproportionately upon Xander. He's the
obstacle. She gets the pain. (Xander's own pain is largely a reflection of
Anya's pain.) But this is a problem only if accounting for blame is the
paramount issue - or even an issue at all. I don't believe it is. Xander's
got the wedding problem. Anya only thinks she has. Instead she has a very
different problem moving ahead.
I think it's wonderful how the series finds a way to integrate these issues
into an explosive moment and then fling them their own directions.
But even flung apart there is an enduring connection. I mentioned
previously the irony of how Anya's exposure to Xander's heart is what makes
her survive Selfless. But I think it's deeper than that. Think of the
whole Xander/Anya arc. Xander, by merely being himself, gives Anya
everything she knows about humanity. Then, when that's pretty much tapped
out, Xander merely being himself again, thrusts Anya onto the part of her
path that she needs to traverse alone. Finally, at her ultimate moment of
crisis, she finds her own heart - built through Xander's love - to carry her
through.... I love this stuff. It's positively poetic.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> I so enjoy the phase of Anya's story kicked off by Hells Bells, and seem to
>> be the only guy in the world who thinks Xander made a wise choice. But I
>> fully recognize how badly so many feel about Xander's decision. There's no
>> getting past how strongly it feels like trashing his character to so many
>> people.
>
> You're not alone. I actaully find Anya a bit annoying in HB (partly for
> inviting all those demons), though one can't help but feel for her at
> the end. It is most likely that which colours many viewers judgement in
> her favour and against Xander. But without this there'd be no Selfless,
> which I sometimes have as my third favourite episode of the whole
> series.
I'll throw in a belated "me too" here. I do think Xander made the right
decision (albeit tragically late); and Anya treating demons like D'Hoffryn
as old friends or even family showed that whether or not she was ready to
get married, she wasn't entirely ready to be *human*.
I don't rank Selfless quite as high as you, though. It's very well
constructed and extremely well acted, but I don't like some of the things
they did with Anya's character. That, however, is a discussion for another
thread.
>> As You Were, incidentally, is another episode I tend to like better than
>> most. My general take on it is that it's constructed to show an exaggerated
>> viewpoint from Buffy's eyes. Sort of like how the Zeppo presents an
>> exaggerated view through Xander's eyes. I enjoy the cleverness of it.
>
> AYW is great for many reasons. One is when Buffy leaves Spike's place at
> the end, as she turns and leaves IMO you can see the weight lifting from
> her shoulders (you can see it in SMG's performance, I mean). It's a
> turning point in her journey back from the abyss. It's the start of the
> climb back to humanity. It's one of the series great moments.
I like AYW too. Not one of my favorites, but certainly not bad, and not
even the weakest episode of the season. (I might pick OFA for that
title.) As you say, SMG was great in that breakup scene; and I also like
her last conversation with Riley, which is also one of MB's better
moments on the series. There were some plot weaknesses, and the character
of Sam was overdone (though the Zeppo idea above makes it more palatable),
but unless one is a serious Riley-hater I don't see any reason to hate
AYW.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> This is a subject I've banged my head against before. I keep it up because
>> I so enjoy the phase of Anya's story kicked off by Hells Bells, and seem to
>> be the only guy in the world who thinks Xander made a wise choice. But I
>
> but he did it badly
> i think it was poor form to leave it to anya to announce it to everyone
That wasn't really Xander's decision though. After he told Anya he
couldn't go through with the wedding, *she* walked back into the main
room. He could only accompany her, tell her to stop so that he could make
the announcement, or leave. Maybe in hindsight the second option would
have been better, but it's entirely understandable why he took the third:
after ending the wedding, he was in no position to either accompany Anya
or tell her what to do.
That's a pretty decent description. A lot of people (including me,
really) think Riley became more interesting in S5 when he started going
nuts. Maybe we can also say that he became a better friend/boyfriend to
Buffy in his one S6 episode, long after they broke up. You could also
make an argument that Xander became a better friend/boyfriend to Anya in
S7, long after *they* broke up.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> is Sunnydale. Demons and such are routinely used to represent and/or draw
> out inner issues.
What's weird is that that seemed straightforward enough when I said
it. Stories that center around the people involved rather than being
driven by the monsters are inherently more satisfying. But looking at
where the construct fits into the episode, I'm fine to concede this
point.
> The demon is acting maliciously to punish Anya. In that sense he forces the
> nightmare upon Xander. (Anya does share responsibility for what happens
> here.) But "force" is still somewhat a misnomer in that the content of the
> nightmare is drawn straight from Xander's own fears.
> Ultimately Xander is shown to realize that - as much as he reasonably could
> so close to the discomfiting experience. But his problem is that, forced or
> not, he concludes that the fear is true anyway. It wasn't a lie as Anya
> tries to insist.
Except for the whole not being true part. Everyone in the scene has
said that it wasn't real, and furthermore that it wasn't realistic -
it was specifically manufactured to be a worst-fear scenario, and
everyone fears stuff like that. Either Xander is somehow unable to
comprehend this simple disctinction to the point where he doesn't mind
hurting Anya as badly as it would be possible to do at the moment, in
which case he's a moron, or the experience is so intense that he's
more or less forced to react the way he does, in which case the
episode isn't about his choices at all and HB is primarily/exclusively
about Anya (which, again, is one read, but not the one actually
supported by the way the episode is staged, plotted, and back-
referenced).
> You and a ton of others don't seem to think that's true to Xander. I do.
> That may be the heart of our difference of opinion.
I think it is the heart. I was composing a lengthy response to this
general point and then reached the point here I decided I was really
really sick of thinking about "Hell's Bells." The short version is
that it's not having the fears that seems so blatantly artificial, but
the way he responds to them.
> I can expand a little on what I was thinking with my musing that you
> mention. I know that Anya rather idealized her demon past in S6. What I
> don't recall is how she feels about her past in the earlier seasons. (Other
> than the brief S3 period when she's so fond of relating her vengeance
> triumphs. I don't consider that terribly meaningful, however, since she's
> so new to her human self that her demon life remains nearly the only thing
> she knows.) I'm not sure that she even thinks about it in S4 and S5. Which
> wouldn't be terribly surprising since I suspect M.E. didn't work all this
> out about Anya, or where they would take her until S6. If so, then they
> have a different foundational starting point for her than with Xander - one
> that lacks the same depth. There isn't a Restless segment for Anya. But
> I'm not sure about that and want to see.
As best as I can recall, I'd agree with the idea that she didn't
really think about it, except when angry at Xander. She's human, time
to live a human life full of carnal pleasures and amass material
goods, and the past doesn't matter much anymore. It's hard to say
more than that because beyond ineffectual snark from the gang, there's
very little confrontation that would force her to deal, one way or
another, with her lack of remorse.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:mair_fheal-94825...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> This is a subject I've banged my head against before. I keep it up
>> because
>> I so enjoy the phase of Anya's story kicked off by Hells Bells, and seem
>> to
>> be the only guy in the world who thinks Xander made a wise choice. But I
>
> but he did it badly
> i think it was poor form to leave it to anya to announce it to everyone
I'm not sure Anya gave him much opportunity to do otherwise... though I'm
pretty sure Xander wasn't thinking about it either. So, yeah, poor form. I
don't have an objection to that complaint about Xander. I don't think it
makes the episode bad though.
That's a nice sum of the episode's heart. I think one thing that works with
the highly romantic depiction found in As You Were, is that it sells
romantic ideas like being more than the fry cook you look like. There's a
bit of Cinderella in that where the ash smudged face doesn't define the
person.
But I still think the romantic depiction is deliberately exaggerated to
reflect Buffy's wish for Riley to ride in on a white horse and fix
everything.
OBS
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:MPG.2123de9ca...@news.altopia.net...
Oh, good. Someone else appreciates it. We should start a support group.
Heh.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> reflect Buffy's wish for Riley to ride in on a white horse and fix
> everything.
he does fix everything
he tells buffy shes still buffy
shes not perfect
but she never was
then buffy can look at spike as a correctable mistake
instead of sign that she came back wrong
Arbitrar Of Quality
> AYW is great for many reasons. One is when Buffy leaves Spike's place at
> the end, as she turns and leaves IMO you can see the weight lifting from
> her shoulders (you can see it in SMG's performance, I mean). It's a
> turning point in her journey back from the abyss. It's the start of the
> climb back to humanity. It's one of the series great moments.
Every episode will be a favorite of someone, I suppose. That moment
doesn't do so much for me - I remember first watching it and thinking
of it as... just another Buffy/Spike break-up scene. Less attuned to
the subtleties of the performance in this case, apparently.
-AOQ
Mark Myers
>
> I don't rank Selfless quite as high as you, though. It's very well
> constructed and extremely well acted, but I don't like some of the things
> they did with Anya's character. That, however, is a discussion for another
> thread.
Episode ranking is something I find incredibly difficult anyway, though
it's interesting to read other peoples' preferences, so long as they're
as well argued as they are in these threads.
Ranking for me is a bit like Schrodinger's Cat, in that it's usually
only there when I ask (or am asked) the question.