More on life and murder of transgender victim Eddie "Gwen" Araujo Jr.
Patty
Why did it take a murder for the people of Newark to wake up to the
harassment of one of their own?
Julian Guthrie
San Francisco Chronicle
Sunday, December 22, 2002
The grim rumors were passed from person to person, during "Monday
Night Football," over the phone, in front yards. As many as a dozen
people were buzzing with news of the beating and killing of a
cross-dressing male on the night of Oct. 3.
But no one went to the police. No one called the victim's mother.
From Newark, where century-old railroad tracks divide the
13-square-mile working-class town of 43,500 into new subdivisions and
old tract homes, the family of the slain teen, Eddie Araujo Jr., is
struggling to honor his young life and understand his horrific death.
They are plagued by something else, too: How to live in a community
where hate was met with indifference - even after it became too brutal
to ignore.
Four men have been charged with killing 17-year-old Eddie, who
identified and dressed as a female. The murder reportedly occurred
after it was discovered at a party that the bubbly 100-pound girl in
the denim skirt, peasant blouse and flip-flops, was a he.
On Oct. 16, Eddie's body was recovered from a shallow grave in the El
Dorado National Forest near Placerville. The body was wrapped in a
sheet, hands and feet bound. The official cause of death is asphyxia
due to strangulation, associated with blunt trauma to the head.
The crime scene is a faded yellow house with blue trim that sits on a
corner lot. Grimy beige curtains are pulled tightly shut. A spindly
dead tree stands in the middle of the small, square front yard. The
garage, which juts out past the front of the house, is where Eddie was
said to have been bound, beaten, hit in the face with a shovel,
slashed with a knife and strangled. Police recovered empty Corona
bottles from a shelf next to the shovel.
On Oct. 25, the day of Eddie's funeral, the driver of the hearse
inadvertently led the procession past the yellow wood-frame house on
Saint Matthew Drive.
"There were a bunch of people standing in the yard drinking beer, as
if they were having a party," said David Guerrero, Eddie's uncle. "We
were going slow. It was torture."
David said that before the media descended on Newark, "People were
making statements about how Eddie contributed to his own death, that
he shouldn't have tricked people. We've dealt with a lot of negative
treatment for a long time because of the way Eddie was."
Eddie's mother, Sylvia Guerrero, who is 38 and has four children -
three now, she reminds herself - is taking time off from her job as a
legal assistant. She has given interviews reluctantly and somewhat
impatiently. She is doing it for Eddie, she says. "I was proud to be
his mother. He won't die in vain."
She never expected to be a leader, except in her own family. Ten of
her 13 siblings - six girls and seven boys - are younger and were
often left in her care. Since the gripping details of the case
emerged, she has been approached by major networks, talk shows,
newspapers, magazines and gay rights groups to speak out against hate.
A reporter from Spanish television told Sylvia that she owed it to the
Latino community to do an interview. It's a Latino issue, the reporter
insisted, to which Sylvia angrily replied, "No, it's a human issue,"
and politely but firmly hung up.
It's an issue, she says angrily, that had been simmering for years.
In middle school, as a slight and effeminate boy with a bright smile
and fine features, Eddie was called names - faggot being the epithet
of choice. He was bullied and beat up on his way home from school. In
ninth grade, when he had begun to dress as a girl, experiment with
makeup and hair color and call himself Gwen, he got an early lesson in
adult rejection. Job applications were tossed in the trash when
potential employers looked at the pretty face of Gwen and read the
birth name Edward.
And in church, there were whispers and stares. Last Easter, Eddie and
his family, dressed in their Sunday best, left halfway through the
service, vowing never to return.
So in November, a month after losing her son, Sylvia said she plans to
leave Newark. The Guerrero family has retained high-profile Los
Angeles attorney Gloria Allred. They have left open the possibility of
filing a civil lawsuit. For now, Allred says, she is there to protect
the victim's family's rights.
"I'm so angry that he was taken from me," Sylvia said. "Everywhere I
drive, around every corner, I see him and I'm reminded of how he
suffered. I still feel disrespected, even in his death."
She has nightmares about his ending. Like the murders of many gay,
lesbian or transgendered youth, she fears that Eddie saw rage in his
final moments.
Psychologists and specialists in the field of gender identity say such
attacks often stem from a fear of what's inside of oneself. In many
cases, victims of hate crimes are pummeled, as if there were something
to be exorcised.
In one telling account of what had happened, Newark resident Brian
Seabrands, who was not at the party but had heard the rumors, told
police that things went wrong after guys at a party "found out it
(Eddie) wasn't a chick, beat the hell out of it, killed it and
supposedly buried it in South Lake Tahoe."
The overwhelming majority of hate crimes involve men.
"There is a fear of the feminine hidden in the masculine self, and
somehow that translates into violence," said Anne Fausto-Sterling, a
Brown University professor who works with transgendered people and has
written several books on human sexuality, including "Sexing the Body:
Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality." She believes that
such bias has less to do with class or race than education and
familiarization with gender issues.
"The more these other modes of existence become part of the familiar,
the less threatening they seem."
COMMUNITY'S SHAME
Newark Mayor Dave Smith said he has been stunned and saddened by the
crime. It's been 2 1/2 years since there was a murder in Newark. He
can't remember there ever being a hate crime. He has been the city's
mayor for 25 years - the longest-serving mayor in the state.
Smith, whose day job is as vice president for a plumbing products
company, said he was touched and provoked by a recent performance of
"The Laramie Project," a play about gay college student Matthew
Shepard, who was beaten and left to die in Laramie, Wyo. The play,
which opened last month to standing ovations at Newark Memorial High
School, had been in the works long before Eddie's slaying.
"Just like the people of Laramie grappled with what happened there, we
are doing the same," said Smith, who feels protective of the city he
has grown to love. "I look at Newark and can't imagine this happened
here. This is not representative of the city of Newark. It's a caring
community."
He was never aware of Eddie's problems: the taunts; the awkward
challenges of finding a job; the discomfort in church. He hadn't
known, either, that community members shared details of Eddie's death
but didn't alert the police.
"I would say to those people, 'Shame on you,' " he said.
"We all wonder how something like this occurred. But it comes down to
a mix of individuals and the variables of whatever else was going on
that night."
In retracing the labyrinthine spread of rumors, the police report
reads like a high school diary. Eddie's aunt heard the rumor from her
brother, "who heard it from a third party, who heard it from the host
of a party, who heard it from the acquaintance at a party -- who heard
it from a girlfriend of a person who had been at the party" where the
crime allegedly occurred.
The rumors finally reached the family on Oct. 9. Before calling Newark
police - who had been investigating Eddie's disappearance as a runaway
or missing juvenile - family members tracked down names, addresses and
car license plate numbers of individuals who reportedly knew what had
happened. Within a week, police had interviewed witnesses. Within
days, suspects were taken into custody and charged with murder and a
hate-crime enhancement.
The suspects are Michael W. Magidson, 22; Jose A. Merel, 23; Jaron
Chase Nabors, 19; and Jason Cazares, 22.
Nabors, who led police to the shallow grave site, has pleaded not
guilty. Attorney Robert Beles says his client Nabors "adamantly denies
the allegations of a hate crime." The other suspects have not entered
pleas. All are being held without bail.
The break in the case came from information provided by the family.
They had heard that Nabors relayed parts of the story to a friend,
Adam Hewson, while watching football on the evening of Oct. 7. Hewson
later told his roommates, one of whom told a friend, who is related by
marriage to a cousin of David Guerrero's. Police persuaded Hewson to
wear a wire and record a conversation with Nabors.
Hewson began the conversation by telling Nabors that he had been
questioned by police. According to the police report, Nabors responded
by saying, "You ain't gotta worry about s-, dude; no way do you gotta
worry about s-. I gotta worry about s-, homie."
David Guerrero, a 32-year-old real estate agent who helped his sister
raise Eddie, never expected an ending like this. Eddie had a group of
close friends -
all girls - who knew his gender. He had places in Newark where he was
welcome.
He had the support of most of the Guerrero clan, including his
grandparents.
But on the night of Oct. 3, his friends had declined to go to the
party with him. He had only recently met the Merels, at whose house
the party was held.
David's home is situated in a new, upscale section of town. A handful
of blocks away, across the tracks, sits the Merel home. Imelda
Guerrero, who lives with her brother and keeps her upstairs window
open at night, wonders whether she could have heard Eddie's anguish.
David finds himself driving by the Merel house at odd hours, slowing
down or stopping. Sometimes he just stares in disbelief or anger;
other times he cries.
On a recent Friday afternoon, Paul Merel, the older brother of suspect
Jose Merel, answered the door but declined to be interviewed. "The
story has been stretched in the media," he said, standing in the
doorway with a red ski cap pulled low, just above his eyes. "I don't
want to talk about it." Originally taken into custody, Paul, who is 25
and on probation, was later released. He has told police that he and
his girlfriend left the party when the altercation began. It was his
girlfriend, Nicole Brown, 22, who had discovered Eddie's gender in the
bathroom and had announced "It's a man" to the others at the party,
according to police records. Brown was questioned and released. Police
say other arrests are possible.
A GUTSY LIFE
Eddie's mom seethes when she hears Brown's name. She believes that
those who walked away from the party and did nothing to help her son
are equally culpable. At the same time, she replays her own role that
night, wondering if she could have done anything differently. Her
family and friends remind her that she did her best to be protective
while allowing her teenage son his freedom.
She is being lauded for loving her son like a mother should:
unconditionally. It wasn't easy; it never is. Every family faces
challenges, but her obstacles were a little more unconventional, she
says now. She remembers the day, hour and setting when Eddie began to
cry as he told her how he truly felt about himself.
"Mom, you know how I feel?" he said on the weekend of July 4, 1999.
The two were in her bedroom, in their pajamas. "I feel like a girl
trapped in this body with a penis I don't identify with."
Sylvia started to cry. She already knew, but "this was laying it out
for me. "
She told him, "It's time for you to be who you are." She would help
him and try to protect him. She warned that it wasn't going to be
easy, "that the world is not accepting, that people are mean,
especially at school." She began to buy his makeup, clothing, purses,
bras. After he'd dropped out of high school because he felt harassed,
she told him she expected him to get a job, but that she would help
pay his way through beauty school. He wanted to become a famous
Hollywood makeup artist.
"I was behind him all the way," Sylvia said. "I wanted him to go for
it. It takes a lot of guts to come out as a freshman in high school."
Sitting in her brother's living room, which has served as ground zero
since the slaying, Sylvia talked of how she was beginning to see Eddie
as Gwen. He had tried out other names, including Wendy and Lida, but
chose Gwen because of his love for rock star Gwen Stefani, front woman
for the band No Doubt and a fashion icon. His favorite songs, which he
played over and over again, driving his mother crazy in a timeless
teenage tradition, were "I'm Just a Girl," "Magic's in the Makeup" and
"Underneath it All."
Sylvia believes she would have eventually seen Eddie as her second
daughter and called her Gwen. They talked about the day when he would
have a sex change.
They even talked about the best breast size, considering he was a size
0. But she still called him Eddie, except when he was around his
friends.
"I told him that I loved him to pieces, but that he was still my
Eddie," Sylvia said. "I knew he had this guy part, but I saw him
becoming a beautiful girl. I was happy. I would have had two beautiful
daughters."
The family uses the pronoun he when speaking of Eddie. When people
would call for Gwen - and men were calling "a million times a day" -
Sylvia would roll her eyes, cover the phone and yell, "Eddie!" She
didn't see her son changing so much as becoming who he truly was. The
transformation had just begun.
She knew that he was using alcohol and had experimented with drugs,
something she saw as an unfortunate rite of passage for many teenagers
and all too common with youth who question their gender. Although
Jaron Nabors told police that Eddie might have had a sexual
relationship with Jose Merel and Michael Magidson, Sylvia believes her
son was not sexually active. He had told her he planned to wait until
he had his sex change.
The night of the fateful party, Sylvia had come home from work to find
Eddie had cleaned the house and made dinner. Eddie told Sylvia that he
was going to a party to "kick it" - hang out, drink and smoke blunts,
which are marijuana cigars. She saw that he was wearing a denim skirt
and had borrowed her black blouse and ankle bracelet, a gift from her
boyfriend. As he was on the way out the door, she told him not to lose
the bracelet.
SEARCHING FOR ACCEPTANCE
Eddie's sister Pearl, who lives in Tracy, is trying to focus on the
happy times. She sinks into depression when she thinks of how Eddie
was treated.
"He would tell me, 'Girl, you're goin' to see me on the red carpet one
day, ' " said Pearl, who is 20 and was "like glue" with her brother.
"When I gained weight, he said, "Oh, my gosh, girl -
1-800-JENNYCRAIG.' He joked and was bubbly, but I knew it was hard for
him. I know he believed in God. At the same time, he questioned God
and why he made him like that. No one would hire him, men would stare
because he was beautiful, and other people would give him looks and
call him names."
Sylvia divorced their father, Eddie Araujo Sr., when Eddie Jr. was 10
months old. There were other father figures in Eddie Jr.'s life. He
had a full childhood and loved to camp, swim, play Little League,
attend Bible study and enter slot car races. He had 44 cousins in the
Newark area.
"There were places in Newark that accepted him, but he used to tell my
mom, "We gotta move out of here,' " Pearl said. "He liked going to San
Francisco because he felt normal there."
The slaying has drawn national attention because of its similarity to
other high-profile murders of gay or transgendered youth. The National
Coalition of Anti-Violence programs - a network of 26 organizations
that monitor and respond to crimes against gays, lesbians, bisexuals
and transgenders - reports that between 1999 and 2000, the number of
incidents increased by 8 percent, from 1,992 to 2,151.
Some experts say the increase in such crimes may stem from heightened
awareness and better reporting.
Fausto-Sterling, the Brown University professor, is seeing a slow but
steady change in the awareness and acceptance of transgendered people,
an umbrella term used to describe those whose sexuality is not readily
characterized as definitely male or female.
"If you start with liberal college campuses, our university recently
added the word 'transgender' to our nondiscrimination policy. The word
'transgender' is starting to roll off the tongues of people you'd
never expect. Hopefully it will trickle down into more conservative
areas of society. Obviously, it's a process."
At times, the process comes at an unspeakable price.
In October 1998, in a case that struck a chord across America and
spurred calls for the passage of hate-crime legislation, Matthew
Shepard was lured from a local bar, robbed, beaten and left tied to a
post on a wind-whipped prairie. Discovered 18 hours later, he died in
a Colorado hospital, having never regained consciousness.
In December 1993, in another case that drew outrage and became a
catalyst for awareness, Brandon Teena, born Teena Brandon and raised
as a girl, was raped, beaten and later killed when two men in Falls
City, Neb., learned that he was a she. The story of the murder was
turned into the Academy Award- winning movie "Boys Don't Cry." In
words that could have been uttered by Eddie,
Brandon explains in the film, "Brandon is not quite a he. Brandon is
more like a she."
PAINFUL LESSONS
Judy Shepard, Matthew's mother, believes hate is learned. It is
something she has spent days and nights thinking about - and trying
not to think about.
"Hate is all around us, in our family living rooms, churches, schools,
playgrounds, popular media - it is everywhere," Shepard said. "It is
in different formats, presented in different ways - couched in 'God's
word' or some other way to explain our lack of understanding - our
lack of wanting to."
When she learned of what had happened to Eddie, she wondered whether
the community had been accepting or rejecting. Since her son's death,
she has become an advocate for teaching acceptance.
"There is one word that covers all aspects of acceptance and
compassion, and that is respect," she said. "Why is it so hard to
simply respect everyone's right to be who they are? If parents,
educators and society at large could convey the simple concept of
respect and live by example, I think many of the problems of violence
we deal with today could become moot."
Too often, Shepard said, it takes a tragedy before society does what's
right. The communities that are supposed to help to raise children to
become good citizens are "not living up to their responsibilities,"
Shepard said.
"Silence and doing nothing is complicit in the torment Gwen suffered."
There is no end to the tears that well in Sylvia's eyes as she thinks
of her son's pain. He would have turned 18 on Feb. 4.
But slowly and thankfully, she is finding reasons to smile again.
There has been a constant stream of letters and cards of condolence
and support, from strangers and celebrities, from Gov. Gray Davis to
church leaders across the state. The letters from the pastors have
been of special significance.
Inexplicably, she has begun to feel forgiveness and a renewal of her
faith. She said that she plans to return to church - albeit not the
one that ostracized her Eddie.
"Churches, schools and entire communities need to open their doors to
kids like mine," she said, looking at photos of Eddie as a baby,
toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There are
a lot of people like my Eddie out there." .
Contributions may be made to the Eddie "Gwen" Araujo Jr. Fund at Bank
of America, 36900 Newark Blvd., Newark, CA 94560. The account number
is 1059805854.
PHyatt1962
> toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There are
> a lot of people like my Eddie out there."
Your Eddie was a drug using, sexually misleading little piece of shit.
Sorry he died, but he was acting in a reckless, dangerous manner, and
that was bound to catch up with him.>>
Maybe Mommy should have closed her door more and kept Eddie home at night,
instead of prowling the streets looking for drugs, or panty hose.
Think about it.
Michael Lonergan
"Patty" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com...
>
> In one telling account of what had happened, Newark resident Brian
> Seabrands, who was not at the party but had heard the rumors, told
> police that things went wrong after guys at a party "found out it
> (Eddie) wasn't a chick, beat the hell out of it, killed it and
> supposedly buried it in South Lake Tahoe."
And people wonder why hate crime legislation is needed. The quoted
statement above makes the case for hate crime legislation in the brief
quoted material above. Damned shame. Anyone know if it's a criminal
offense in Newark to have knowledge of a crime and not report it?
Michael
Michael Lonergan
"Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
news:v0ce1am...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Play with fire = get burned.
>
> It's like a black guy going to a KKK meeting and think he's going to
> fool someone.
>
> No, it doesn't justify murder, but it sure as heck shows a huge lack of
> judgment in the victim.
>
>
> Metal Recruit
And you're the poster boy/girl for why hate crime legislation is being
lobbied for so heavily. Basically what you're saying is, if a woman walks
into a pool hall with a short dress, she's using poor judgment after she's
gang raped on the pool table.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> In article <f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> eartha...@yahoo.com (Patty) quoted a news story:
>
> > "Churches, schools and entire communities need to open their doors to
> > toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There are
> > a lot of people like my Eddie out there."
>
>
> Sorry he died, but he was acting in a reckless, dangerous manner, and
> that was bound to catch up with him.
>
> himself off as a girl and have sexual relations with a guy, she should
> have been teaching the little joker to behave.
>
>
> Metal Recruit
Define behave.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
"PHyatt1962" <phyat...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20021222171803...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Why Peter, I should have known you'd drop in on a topic regarding sexual
identity. It's not mother's fault the animals killed her child.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> In article <72lc0vsh0k3b48ds5...@4ax.com>,
> Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
>
> > Metal Recruit <cluet...@nononospam.com> decided to stand up and
> > say:
> >
> > >In article <f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> > > eartha...@yahoo.com (Patty) quoted a news story:
> > >
> > >> toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There
are
> > >> a lot of people like my Eddie out there."
> > >
> > >
> > >Sorry he died, but he was acting in a reckless, dangerous manner, and
> > >that was bound to catch up with him.
> > >
> > >himself off as a girl and have sexual relations with a guy, she should
> > >have been teaching the little joker to behave.
> > >
> > >
> > >Metal Recruit
> >
> > the fact that this person MAY have tricked someone into having sex
> > than the fact that he/she was brutally murdered.
> >
> > Needless to say, I find that attitude absolutely sickening.
>
> Your gathering skills are in need of sharpening.
I think not. I think Coyote is right on target in his/her assesment.
>
> The fact that he was murdered is pretty obviously wrong. Everyone
> agrees. There's no room for discussion.
I have no idea what you are saying here.
> So, that leaves us with a discussion about sympathy for the victim. My
> contention is when a victim acts in a reckless manner, *and* in a manner
> that shows his disregard for others, then my level of sympathy for the
> victim is significantly reduced (as does my sympathy for his family who
> don't see anything wrong with his behavior).
This is the lamest work around I've seen in a long time. Jesus fucking
Christ, in some areas of the country it might be considered reckless
behavior to sit on the front porch after dark. You are conveniently trying
to sidestep the real issue that's bothering you. Reckless behavior, indeed.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
Michael Lonergan
>
> Don't go to parties with the intention of doing drugs.
>
> Don't fool people about your gender and then engage in sexual relations
> with them.
>
> How's that for a start?
>
> Metal Recruit
Not good enough. Try again.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
>
> So what? It was not proven in a court of law that OJ killed anyone.
What does that have to do with a teenaged transgendered victim murdered by 4
people?
> Justice may be blind, but I use all my senses: "Although
> Jaron Nabors told police that Eddie might have had a sexual
> relationship with Jose Merel and Michael Magidson, Sylvia believes her
> son was not sexually active."
And your point is?
>
> Sure, mom...sure. She's also a mom that didn't have a problem with her
> high school freshman son doing drugs. She knew he was going out to a
> party to use drugs, and instead of stopping him, she told him not to
> lose the bracelet he was wearing.
What the teen was going to a party for is beside the point. Are you saying
that *all* high school freshman going to parties to use drugs deserve to be
murdered?
>
> Can you say "unfit mom"?
You know this how?
>
> snip<
>
> Can you read?
Can you comprehend?
>
> If so, re-read what I wrote in the last post.
>
> Murder is wrong. Eddie should be alive today, though he shouldn't be
> living with him mom.
So where should he be living and why?
>
> Having said that, the amount of sympathy I have for the victim is
> dependent upon the victim's behavior. Eddie acted recklessly, so my
> sympathy for him is diminished.
Going above the speed limit is reckless behavior. Driving and using a cell
phone is considered reckless behavior in some states. I suppose it's okay
to murder those people involved in reckless behavior as well?
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
>
> No, but if she bends over the pool table, drops her panties and flips up
> her dress, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy if she claims she
> said "no."
So raping her is okay by you then?
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
>
> We could have a discussion about whether this kid deserved to be
> murdered...but it would only take about two minutes because we all agree
> that he should not have been.
Hmmm... I'm not so sure you feel that way.
>
> We have a discussion about whether or not he acted recklessly, putting
> himself in harm's way needlessly. That's a much more complicated
> discussion that will span many, many posts.
We all put ourselves in harm's way on a daily basis. It's really not that
complicated at all. Your reckless behavior defense of the perpetrators
holds absolutley no substance. Period.
>
> Does that mean we don't care that he was murdered because we don't go on
> and on about it? No. It means that there's not a lot of discussion when
> there is universal agreement, unless you want to go AOL on us and post
> dozens of "me too" messages.
What this really means is, you are in way over your head and are trying to
back down from your statements. Using AOL as your excuse to extricate
yourself is rather unique, but cowardly.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
"Coyote" <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote in message
news:dl0d0v05vmmn3a81s...@4ax.com...
> Interesting. What is that "real issue" you think is bothering him,
> Michael?
I think the real issue is MR's belief the victim duped one or possibly more
of the perpetrators into sex. From what I have read, there was no mention
of sexual encounters between the victim and the perpetrator. It's a non
issue as far as murder is concerned anyway.
Michael
>
> --
> Coyote
tiny dancer
> In article <f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> eartha...@yahoo.com (Patty) quoted a news story:
>
> > toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There are
> > a lot of people like my Eddie out there."
>
>
> Sorry he died, but he was acting in a reckless, dangerous manner, and
> that was bound to catch up with him.
>
> Instead of expecting us to teach tolerance for a guy who would pass
> himself off as a girl and have sexual relations with a guy, she should
> have been teaching the little joker to behave.
>
>
> Metal Recruit
Wait a minute here, I read this whole story but I missed the 'acting in a
reckless and dangerous manner'?? Where exactly was that part? From what I
read the kid went to a party, as many kids do......that's all. For this he
gets beaten to death, strangled and dumped in a shallow grave?
td
Michael Lonergan
>
> If you know it's dangerous to sit on your front porch after dark, then,
> yes, it's reckless to do so.
I see. And you are the judge of what is or is not reckless behavior?
>
> How much simpler does it get?
Indeed <huge eyeroll>
>
> > You are conveniently trying
> > to sidestep the real issue that's bothering you. Reckless behavior,
indeed.
>
> What "real issue" do you think is bothering me?
I just addressed this in another post to Coyote.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
>
> Sorry, but I think that is good enough.
The key words you just used are "I think".
>
> What is your criteria for "good enough"?
My criteria for good enough would be a statement from you backing up your
beliefs this child was responsible for his own murder with his mother as an
accomplice. Nothing you have said so far lends credence to your original
statements. Nothing.
>
> What is "behaving" about what he was doing?
Again, I have no idea what you mean by this?! "Behaving about what he was
doing"? If you could be less vague perhaps I could answer you.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
tiny dancer
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> decided to stand up
> and say:
>
> >
> off as a female and had sex with a number of men at the party, and
> that the men became enraged and murdered him when they discovered his
> true gender. (I wonder just what kind of sex they're talking about,
> if the men were unaware he was a male when they supposedly did the
> deeds).
>
> I (and I guess Michael) have heard otherwise; I've opined that that
> assertion may be false -- akin to the ugly "gay panic" defense that is
> offered so often in homosexual hate crime cases.
>
> --
> Coyote
Yea, I got the basics of the story, like you I wondered exactly 'what' the
supposed sex was? I mean even oral sex usually entails quite a bit of
feeling up. If any sex had happened, which I didn't read from this
particular article, how could all these guys not know she was a he? I'm
quite leery of the sex part, don't believe it for a moment. What I read was
some big mouth girl came upon him in the bathroom and opened her big
trap.......and when the trouble started she and her beloved supposedly
split.
I'm with you, this sounds like a typical hate crime. Personally I thought
his mother sounded very caring and concerned for her sons well being. I
thought she handled his gender identity problem far better than 95% of
parents would. It sounds to me all this poor kid did was have the
misfortune to be a girl in a boys body.
td
>
> To reply by e-mail, it's dexx...@mchsi.com.
tiny dancer
> In article <9e2d0v0knqv16lq20...@4ax.com>,
> Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
>
> > "Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> decided to stand up and
> > say:
> >
> > >
> > particular drum, but I definitely get the feeling that MR -- from
> > what he's said (in so many words) -- believes "Gwen" kind of got what
> > he "deserved."
>
> Stop "feelilng" and starting "thinking."
>
> The boy didn't deserve what he got. However, had he behaving in a more
> intelligent and responsible manner (and his mother was no help), this
> would not have happened to him.
>
> Do you feel that, as individuals, we have no responsibility for our own
> safety?
>
>
> Metal Recruit
If he was killed because he was behaving in an irresponsible manner, why was
he the only one injured at this party? Sounds like there were plenty of
other people there, couldn't have been that dangerous a place, why did this
kid get killed and no one else?
td
Michael Lonergan
> In article <H0wN9.2383$b97.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote:
>
> > My criteria for good enough would be a statement from you backing up
your
> > beliefs this child was responsible for his own murder with his mother as
an
> > accomplice.
>
> in other parts of this thread, I will not waste my time responding to
> your intentional mischaracterizations of my words.
>
>
> Metal Recruit
Then perhaps you can enlighten me with the true meaning of your words?
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> In article <1CvN9.2354$b97.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote:
>
> > "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:v0d0enh...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > We could have a discussion about whether this kid deserved to be
> > > murdered...but it would only take about two minutes because we all
agree
> > > that he should not have been.
> >
> > Hmmm... I'm not so sure you feel that way.
>
> continuing the conversations, and I will bid you a fond fuck you.
>
> Metal Recruit
I'll take it you have bailed on the topic.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
>
> Stop "feelilng" and starting "thinking."
>
> The boy didn't deserve what he got. However, had he behaving in a more
> intelligent and responsible manner (and his mother was no help), this
> would not have happened to him.
He went to a party. What is uncommon, unintelligent and irresponsible about
those actions? Are you saying every teen that behaves the same way will be
murdered or responsible for harm done to them at the hands of others?
>
> Do you feel that, as individuals, we have no responsibility for our own
> safety?
Of course we are responsible for taking care of ourselves.
Michael
>
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
"tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0wwN9.59286$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>
>
>
> If he was killed because he was behaving in an irresponsible manner, why
was
> he the only one injured at this party? Sounds like there were plenty of
> other people there, couldn't have been that dangerous a place, why did
this
> kid get killed and no one else?
>
> td
Why were the townspeople whispering around that "it" had been killed with
none of them coming forward?
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> In article <5o3d0vsh24548uvkj...@4ax.com>,
> Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ever heard of oral sex?
Yes, but then I've always been to shy to engage in such filthy practices
(fingers crossed)
>
> > I (and I guess Michael) have heard otherwise; I've opined that that
> > assertion may be false -- akin to the ugly "gay panic" defense that is
> > offered so often in homosexual hate crime cases.
>
> Could be.
>
> I think it is irresponsible for gay guys to hit up straight guys.
I really hate to burst your bubble on this one, but in this day and age,
it's next to impossible to determine sexual orientation in some people.
That being said, I assume you mean also that it is irresponsible for str8
guys to hit up gay guys? Yes, it has happened to me, on many occasions.
Next, why is it irresponsible to do so on either side? A simple 'no thank
you' is usually enough to get the message across that you are not
interested.
I really don't think it necessary to bludgeon, strangle and bury a person of
a different sexual orientation if they have made a pass at you.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
>
> He went to a drug party with the goal of becoming intoxicated.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{GASP}}}}}}}}}} Well, then by all means he deserved to be
murdered. Jesus MR, you have just murdered and buried 1/2 the teenage
population of he United States. Get real, will you.
>With
> something to hide like he had, it was not wise to be intoxicated in the
> company of other intoxicated people who may not like the secret you're
> hiding.
I *really* wish you would reread this a couple of times. Seriously.
>
> His mother, knowing he was going to a drug party to get high, was
> exhibiting gross negligence.
Good God. If he'd told her he was going to the ballet would that have made
her less responsible in your eyes? I doubt it.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
>
> Because he had a secret that brought out the very worst in some of the
> other guests.
>
> If I had a secret like that, I would *never* get high around people who
> didn't know the secret. I would know that if the secret were revealed at
> the wrong time, it could be a very dangerous situation...and it was.
So what you would do should apply to all others? Methinks you are revealing
a bit more about your particular agenda regarding this case. So, what
secrets would be acceptable?
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
tiny dancer
"Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote in message
news:yIwN9.2451$b97.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Exactly, sorry I neglected that, I was mainly addressing the issue that
somehow by going to this party he was behaving in an irresponsible and
dangerous manner, enough so that he was killed for it, and both he and his
mother should have anticipated this result.
td
>
>
Big 6
being consumed, where everyone there is a heteral-sexual teenager or
young adult I would give my opinion that this would be dangerous. There
was a case on Am Most Wanted about a Hispanic guy who shot and killed a
person who was a guy dressed as a girl whom he had been getting
affectionate with until his buddy told him it was a guy. In my
non-professional opinion "Gwens" dress and behavior is a type of sexual
"acting out." There are various forms of sexually "acting out" that can
have serious consequences. If "Gwen" had partied with homosexuals there
would have been no consequence. In my town of only 30,000 there is one
bar where homo-sexuals congregate, surely there must have been an
establishment like this in his home town.
Pat
tiny dancer
"Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote in message
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d4ohe...@corp.supernews.com...
> > In article <5o3d0vsh24548uvkj...@4ax.com>,
> > Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Ever heard of oral sex?
>
> Yes, but then I've always been to shy to engage in such filthy practices
> (fingers crossed)
>
> >
> > > I (and I guess Michael) have heard otherwise; I've opined that that
> > > assertion may be false -- akin to the ugly "gay panic" defense that is
> > > offered so often in homosexual hate crime cases.
> >
> > Could be.
> >
> > I think it is irresponsible for gay guys to hit up straight guys.
>
> I really hate to burst your bubble on this one, but in this day and age,
> it's next to impossible to determine sexual orientation in some people.
> That being said, I assume you mean also that it is irresponsible for str8
> guys to hit up gay guys? Yes, it has happened to me, on many occasions.
> Next, why is it irresponsible to do so on either side? A simple 'no thank
> you' is usually enough to get the message across that you are not
> interested.
Women are hit upon by creeps they don't like or want all the time, believe
me there are perfectly acceptable ways of discouraging someones attention
that fall far short of murder. Why is it guys feel so threatened by
something they do all the time to women? So someone hits on you and your
not interested.......big deal.
td
tiny dancer
> In article <eAyN9.59300$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Women are hit upon by creeps they don't like or want all the time,
believe
> > me there are perfectly acceptable ways of discouraging someones
attention
> > that fall far short of murder. Why is it guys feel so threatened by
> > something they do all the time to women? So someone hits on you and
your
> > not interested.......big deal.
>
> socialized to deal with other guys hitting on them.
>
> I would suspect that an insecure, relatively uneducated, unworldly
> teenage male would consider that to be a full front assault on his
> manhood (rather than it simply being flattering, which is all it is).
>
>
> Metal Recruit
First thing, I don't necessarily agree that women are socialized to deal
with some drunk creep pawing them all over, making crude comments about
their breasts or ass or coming right out and suggesting 'what' they'd like
to do to you. I'm not saying all men are this way, but as a woman you have
to learn to deal with plenty. Are you trying to say a simple 'no thanks,
I'm not gay' is that hard to come up with?? Believe me, it's not in the
least flattering for some strange guy to approach you and ask for a blow
job, and not in those words either.
td
Unknown
Metal Recruit wrote in message ...>> "Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> decided to stand up and
>> say:
>>
>> >
>> particular drum, but I definitely get the feeling that MR -- from
>> what he's said (in so many words) -- believes "Gwen" kind of got what
>> he "deserved."
>
>
>The boy didn't deserve what he got. However, had he behaving in a more
>intelligent and responsible manner (and his mother was no help), this
>would not have happened to him.
>
>safety?
>
>
Do you think Brandon Teena got what sie deserved??
Matthew Shepard??
True reality
Unknown
tiny dancer wrote in message
<0wwN9.59286$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
gay, transgendered should be killed on the spot. Bet he is a KKK?
TR
Unknown
Metal Recruit wrote in message ...
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Exactly, sorry I neglected that, I was mainly addressing the issue
that
>> somehow by going to this party he was behaving in an irresponsible
and
>> dangerous manner, enough so that he was killed for it, and both he
and his
>> mother should have anticipated this result.
>
of
>this would have happened.
>
>Unfortunately, he was engaging in a deception that he, and especially
>his mom, should have known was extremely risky.
>
>I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in any
>sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female is
>extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
>
>For that mom to send Junior out there in a dress and endorse his
>deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
>simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he is,
>and forbid him to go into situations where he'd be intoxicated around
>anyone he couldn't 100% trust.
>
>She stunk as a mother, and now she's got a dead kid on her hands.
>
>Metal Recruit
He was 17 years old. enough said, there is much confusion about
sexuality , let alone transgendered
youths. No one deserves to die for that
You idiot
TR
Unknown
Metal Recruit wrote in message ...
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Women are hit upon by creeps they don't like or want all the time,
believe
>> me there are perfectly acceptable ways of discouraging someones
attention
>> that fall far short of murder. Why is it guys feel so threatened by
>> something they do all the time to women? So someone hits on you and
your
>> not interested.......big deal.
>
>socialized to deal with other guys hitting on them.
Bullshit meter going off. Men are hit on equally by males and
aggressive females, believe me, I see it all. Men are the predatory
sex, believe me, they are never insulted, rather flattered by it.
Aggressive females are too, by either sex hitting on them
>
>I would suspect that an insecure, relatively uneducated, unworldly
>teenage male would consider that to be a full front assault on his
>manhood (rather than it simply being flattering, which is all it is).
>
>
The male who was murdered was a seventeen year old teenager too. A very
confused transgender who must have been a mess about his sexuality,
doesn't deserve to be murdered for a *possible* blow-job, imo, since
guys have been doing it to each other for thousands of years.
You are a phoney troll
TR
>Metal Recruit
tiny dancer
> In article <3NwN9.59291$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Exactly, sorry I neglected that, I was mainly addressing the issue that
> > somehow by going to this party he was behaving in an irresponsible and
> > dangerous manner, enough so that he was killed for it, and both he and
his
> > mother should have anticipated this result.
>
> this would have happened.
I certainly don't claim to be an expert on transsexuals, but the way I
understand it Eddie wasn't 'a stand up guy' to begin with. Eddie was a girl
stuck in a guys body. That was the whole problem. Yeah, that's alot maybe
for young people this age to comprehend, but to kill him for it is totally
unacceptable. I mean, Eddie was just a kid too, trying to live a life of
confusion himself. I understand what you're trying to say here, yeah some
of the guys at the party were pissed. So what?? So you go and kill him
because these guys are pissed?
>
> Unfortunately, he was engaging in a deception that he, and especially
> his mom, should have known was extremely risky.
>
> I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in any
> sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female is
> extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
Hell, I'm confused by the whole mess, I can't imagine being Eddie or his
mother.........how the hell I'd handle it? I know I'd feel compasion for my
son, try to understand how it must feel to be a female trapped in a males
body. How would you handle it if you were a guy trapped in a girls body???
So you're a guy, trapped in a female body, you're attracted to other
females.......how the hell would you handle it?? Eddie was obviously
serious about it, he wanted a sex change operation. Eddie wasn't
gay.......he was a transsexual, big difference there, ya know??
>
> For that mom to send Junior out there in a dress and endorse his
> deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
> simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he is,
If someone else here is more knowledgeable about transsexuals please correct
me, but Eddie wasn't trying to hide who he was, he was trying to be 'who he
felt he was inside'......... What kind of mother trys to screw her poor kid
up even more by insisting he deny what he really 'feels' about himself and
portray himself as the 'man that he isn't'? This mother and son were in a
no win situation until Eddie could have a sex change operation. Besides
that, the way I understand it, one of the criteria for sex change surgery is
living as the other sex for a period of time to be sure that's what's going
on, isn't it? No matter what WTF raised these animals that killed Eddie.
If you want to talk about piss-poor parents, talk about the kind of parents
that raise kids without a conscious?? Kids who can murder someone in cold
blood, refer to him as 'it', and bury him without any remorse. That's where
your piss-poor parenting comes in. I've raised teenagers, and I can
guarantee you I didn't raise anything that could kill somebody.
td
Michael Lonergan
"Big 6" <patty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E06A35F...@hotmail.com...
> If "Gwen" asked me my opinion about going to a party where alcohol is
> being consumed, where everyone there is a heteral-sexual teenager or
> young adult I would give my opinion that this would be dangerous. There
> was a case on Am Most Wanted about a Hispanic guy who shot and killed a
> person who was a guy dressed as a girl whom he had been getting
> affectionate with until his buddy told him it was a guy. In my
> non-professional opinion "Gwens" dress and behavior is a type of sexual
> "acting out." There are various forms of sexually "acting out" that can
> have serious consequences. If "Gwen" had partied with homosexuals there
> would have been no consequence. In my town of only 30,000 there is one
> bar where homo-sexuals congregate, surely there must have been an
> establishment like this in his home town.
> Pat
Actually Pat, the point of this conversation, at least for me, is acceptance
and tolerance. I don't give 2 shits about the population of a town or how
many gay bars said town has in it. I don't care what someone goes to a
party dressed like nor do I care what someone's sexuality is. Are people
really that ignorant, uninformed and uneducated they still think it's okay
to shoot someone for this type of behavior? Well, eventually people will
learn it's not okay after a few begin serving life sentences or worse for
murder.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
>
> If Eddie had been an honest, up-front, stand-up guy, I doubt that any of
> this would have happened.
Uh-huh.
>
> Unfortunately, he was engaging in a deception that he, and especially
> his mom, should have known was extremely risky.
Deception?
>
> I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in any
> sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female is
> extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
I still have to read where any sexual activity took place. Even if it did,
it has nothing to do with executing the victim.
>
> For that mom to send Junior out there in a dress and endorse his
> deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
> simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he is,
> and forbid him to go into situations where he'd be intoxicated around
> anyone he couldn't 100% trust.
Hmmm... so now his mother forced him out of the house dressed as he was.
Your statements get more curious as you continue. When is the last time you
tried to tell a teenager how to dress?
>
> She stunk as a mother, and now she's got a dead kid on her hands.
So now it's the mother's fault. You really have you head in the sand.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
> In article <txyN9.59299$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:v0d8a3h...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > In article <3NwN9.59291$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> > > "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Exactly, sorry I neglected that, I was mainly addressing the
> > > > issue that somehow by going to this party he was behaving in an
> > > > irresponsible and dangerous manner, enough so that he was killed
> > > > for it, and both he and his mother should have anticipated this
> > > > result.
> > >
> > > If Eddie had been an honest, up-front, stand-up guy, I doubt that
> > > any of this would have happened.
> >
> >
> > I certainly don't claim to be an expert on transsexuals, but the way
> > I understand it Eddie wasn't 'a stand up guy' to begin with. Eddie
> > was a girl stuck in a guys body. That was the whole problem. Yeah,
> > that's alot maybe for young people this age to comprehend, but to
> > kill him for it is totally unacceptable.
>
>
> > I mean, Eddie was just a kid too, trying to live a life of confusion
> > himself. I understand what you're trying to say here, yeah some of
> > the guys at the party were pissed. So what?? So you go and kill him
> > because these guys are pissed?
>
> wrong. To not protect yourself from that possibility is unwise.
What is wrong about it?
>
> > > Unfortunately, he was engaging in a deception that he, and
> > > especially his mom, should have known was extremely risky.
> > >
> > > I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in
> > > any sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female
> > > is extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
> >
> > Hell, I'm confused by the whole mess, I can't imagine being Eddie or
> > his mother.........how the hell I'd handle it? I know I'd feel
> > compasion for my son, try to understand how it must feel to be a
> > female trapped in a males body. How would you handle it if you were
> > a guy trapped in a girls body??? So you're a guy, trapped in a female
> > body, you're attracted to other females.......how the hell would you
> > handle it?? Eddie was obviously serious about it, he wanted a sex
> > change operation. Eddie wasn't gay.......he was a transsexual, big
> > difference there, ya know??
>
> Considering he hadn't begun any sort of pre-op hormone therapy, there
> wasn't any *practical* difference between him and a homosexual.
You know he had not begun any pre-op therapy, how? Would it have made any
practical difference to his murderers had he been just an ordinary run of
the mill homosexual? I think not.
>
> To anyone who didn't know him, he was simply a guy who liked guys.
>
> > > For that mom to send Junior out there in a dress and endorse his
> > > deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
> > > simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he
> > > is,
> >
> >
> > If someone else here is more knowledgeable about transsexuals please
> > correct me, but Eddie wasn't trying to hide who he was, he was trying
> > to be 'who he felt he was inside'.........
>
> He was hiding the fact that he had a male body.
Do you show every physical detail of your body when you go out in public?
>
> > What kind of mother trys to screw her poor kid up even more by
> > insisting he deny what he really 'feels' about himself and portray
> > himself as the 'man that he isn't'?
>
> It's okay for him to dress up like a girl, but he shouldn't represent
> himself as a girl to others...until he actually *is* a girl.
ROFLMAO... do you *honestly* believe the outcome would have been different
if Eddie had been snipped and the perps found out about *that*? Jesus.
>
> > This mother and son were in a no win situation until Eddie could
> > have a sex change operation.
>
> They weren't in a no-win situation. His mom could have made sure he
> kept himself in low-risk environments. His mom could have made sure he
> didn't go to drug-fueled parties with people who might not dig the
> guy-dressed-as-girl scene.
You are totally hung up on this boy's mother. Why?
>
> > Besides that, the way I understand it, one of the criteria for sex
> > change surgery is living as the other sex for a period of time to be
> > sure that's what's going on, isn't it? No matter what WTF raised
> > these animals that killed Eddie. If you want to talk about piss-poor
> > parents, talk about the kind of parents that raise kids without a
> > conscious??
>
> Those parents also suck, but it was Eddie's mom who acted like she was
> doing a good job.
She wasn't a good mother because you say so?
>
> > Kids who can murder someone in cold blood, refer to him as 'it', and
> > bury him without any remorse. That's where your piss-poor parenting
> > comes in.
> > I've raised teenagers, and I can guarantee you I didn't raise
> > anything that could kill somebody.
>
> And you probably didn't raise a boy that presented himself to society
> as a girl...or vice versa.
>
> One good thing about this thread is that it has exposed what nutcases
> True Reality and Michael Loner are. Those two can't discuss what I
> post...they have to make up weird stuff that has nothing to do with
> what I've been saying.
To sum it up, here's what I've heard you say, without ANY substantiation:
The boy was deceptive in some type of sexual exploits and the mother
contributed to his death by allowing him to go to the party dressed as a
girl.
Nutcase indeed. Perhaps a bit of education on your end. You have resorted
to name calling, the first sign of a Usenet Loser. Keep up the good work.
Michael
>
> Metal Recruit
>
tiny dancer
> In article <81zN9.59302$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:v0de2id...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > In article <eAyN9.59300$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> > > "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Women are hit upon by creeps they don't like or want all the time,
> > believe
> > > > me there are perfectly acceptable ways of discouraging someones
> > attention
> > > > that fall far short of murder. Why is it guys feel so threatened by
> > > > something they do all the time to women? So someone hits on you and
> > your
> > > > not interested.......big deal.
> > >
> > > Women are socialized to deal with guys hitting on them. Men are not
> > > socialized to deal with other guys hitting on them.
> > >
> > > I would suspect that an insecure, relatively uneducated, unworldly
> > > teenage male would consider that to be a full front assault on his
> > > manhood (rather than it simply being flattering, which is all it is).
> > >
> > >
> > > Metal Recruit
> >
> >
> > First thing, I don't necessarily agree that women are socialized to deal
> > with some drunk creep pawing them all over, making crude comments about
> > their breasts or ass or coming right out and suggesting 'what' they'd
like
> > to do to you.
>
No, I'm merely commenting on your response that women are socialized to deal
with being hit on and men aren't.
>
> > I'm not saying all men are this way, but as a woman you have
> > to learn to deal with plenty. Are you trying to say a simple 'no
thanks,
> > I'm not gay' is that hard to come up with??
>
> Not to me, but it clearly is for many males.
>
> > Believe me, it's not in the
> > least flattering for some strange guy to approach you and ask for a blow
> > job, and not in those words either.
>
> Again, is this what you think Eddie did?
>
> If not, what is the point of your examples?
>
> Metal Recruit
No, as I stated earlier, I don't believe there was any sex involved. As was
stated in the news story, a girl came upon Eddie in the bathroom and opened
her big mouth about him. The point of my examples was that this sort of
behavior happens to women all the time and they don't resort to killing
somebody over it.
td
tiny dancer
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> decided to stand up
> and say:
>
> >
> big deal to straight guys when they're hit on by another guy...I
> believe in these cases they're insecure in their own
> masculinity/sexuality, and thus go ballistic when they feel said
> masculinity/sexuality is being called into question.
>
> --
> Coyote
Yeah, I know that, I was merely trying to point out all the times jerks,
especially when they are in a pack, think it's really
funny/cute/entertaining to say and do stuff to women in public, but then are
horrified because another man 'came on' to them. And you are right, the
more secure men simply say no, not interested, the way women are forced to
do all the time. It's always the insecure ones who, as you put it, go
ballistic. Their masculinity is so fragile.........the big tough guys
attitude. What a bunch of jerks.
Michael Lonergan
>
> Women are socialized to deal with guys hitting on them. Men are not
> socialized to deal with other guys hitting on them.
Where I live and where I work, this is not uncommon and most of the str8 men
are very comfortable with their own sexuality and are not threatened by the
attentions of other men.
>
> I would suspect that an insecure, relatively uneducated, unworldly
> teenage male would consider that to be a full front assault on his
> manhood (rather than it simply being flattering, which is all it is).
And because this insecure, uneducated and unintelligent teen has every right
to bludgeon and murder whoever may be threatening his precarious, pathetic
ego. Right?
Michael
>
>
> Metal Recruit
>
Michael Lonergan
>> TD:
> > Believe me, it's not in the
> > least flattering for some strange guy to approach you and ask for a blow
> > job, and not in those words either.
>
> Again, is this what you think Eddie did?
>
> If not, what is the point of your examples?
>
> Metal Recruit
I know what TD meant and I'll tell you it's now what you are asking her.
Just for the record, here are 3 additional articles I found on the subject.
Nothing much new in these but there is clearly no mention of anything
sexual, at all, happening at the party.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/2002-12-23-teen-death_x.htm
http://365gay.com/NewsContent/122002phelpsHawaii.htm
http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/ocr/article.do?id=17394§ion=NEWS&year=
2002&month=12&day=22
Michael
Bo Raxo
> In article <3NwN9.59291$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Exactly, sorry I neglected that, I was mainly addressing the issue that
> > somehow by going to this party he was behaving in an irresponsible and
> > dangerous manner, enough so that he was killed for it, and both he and
his
> > mother should have anticipated this result.
>
> this would have happened.
>
> his mom, should have known was extremely risky.
>
> I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in any
> sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female is
> extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
>
> deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
> simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he is,
> anyone he couldn't 100% trust.
>
>
I haven't tried to raise four kids while holding down a job, so I won't
criticize her parenting skills.
Have you?
And in the midst of all your "drug use" blather, let's remember the kid was
smoking pot. That's hardly on par with taking harder drugs. If I had a
teen in the house, I'd rather him or her was smoking blunts than getting
drunk, much less harder drugs.
I think I can end this whole argument, though. Mental, you have indicated
you have "less sympathy" for Eddie. Okay, that means you have some sympathy
for the victim, right?
Now just go ahead and say you have no sympathy for the cowardly little shits
that beat him to death, and we can put this thread to bed.
Wait, don't tell me you do have sympathy for them? For perhaps getting a
blowjob and being too stupid to spot the Adam's apple on that head bobbing
up and down on their dick? C'mon now, don't tell me you have any sympathy
for these murderers.
Bo Raxo
> In article <5o3d0vsh24548uvkj...@4ax.com>,
> Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
>
> > "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> decided to stand up
> > and say:
> >
> > >
> > >> In article <f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> > >> eartha...@yahoo.com (Patty) quoted a news story:
> > >>
> > >> > "Churches, schools and entire communities need to open their doors
to
> > >> > kids like mine," his mom said, looking at photos of Eddie as a
baby,
> > >> > toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There
are
> > >> > a lot of people like my Eddie out there."
> > >>
> > >> Your Eddie was a drug using, sexually misleading little piece of
shit.
> > >>
> > >> Sorry he died, but he was acting in a reckless, dangerous manner, and
> > >> that was bound to catch up with him.
> > >>
> > >> Instead of expecting us to teach tolerance for a guy who would pass
> > >> himself off as a girl and have sexual relations with a guy, she
should
> > >> have been teaching the little joker to behave.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Metal Recruit
> > >
> > >
> > >Wait a minute here, I read this whole story but I missed the 'acting in
a
> > >reckless and dangerous manner'?? Where exactly was that part? From
what I
> > >read the kid went to a party, as many kids do......that's all. For
this he
> > >gets beaten to death, strangled and dumped in a shallow grave?
> > >
> > >td
> > >
> > Recruit believes -- correctly or not -- that the kid passed himself
> > off as a female and had sex with a number of men at the party, and
> > that the men became enraged and murdered him when they discovered his
> > true gender.
>
> It didn't necessarily happen at the party, though one has to wonder what
> might have been going on in that bathroom.
>
> Certainly, there are people who believe Eddie engaged in sex with two
> boys. Had the people at the party known those two boys, it certainly
> could have enraged them to find out "Gwen" was Eddie.
>
> OTOH, maybe they just hate No Doubt...a perfectly defensible stand.
>
> > (I wonder just what kind of sex they're talking about,
> > if the men were unaware he was a male when they supposedly did the
> > deeds).
>
> Ever heard of oral sex?
>
> > assertion may be false -- akin to the ugly "gay panic" defense that is
> > offered so often in homosexual hate crime cases.
>
> Could be.
>
> I think it is irresponsible for gay guys to hit up straight guys.
>
How about when straight guys hit on gay women?
Or when gay women hit on straight women?
Oh wait, these examples don't trigger homophobia, so they're okay, right?
Michael Lonergan
"Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> mewled to Bo Raxo
news:v0fp78i...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> You like to pretend you're smart, but then you ask dumb questions like
> this.
>
> It seems you have had *no* life experiences in this realm that have
> resulted in you learning something.
>
>
> Metal Recruit
I'm going to get some ice cream and watch.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
>
> How about if you not post again until you find a post where I say these
> things? Oh, and take Michael with you. A break from his idiocy would be
> nice.
>
> Metal Recruit
Actually, I think Coyote might want to stick around for a bit and watch the
fun. You appear to be intent on taking the title of 'new chew toy.'
Michael
Bo Raxo
> In article <au8nnr$3gm$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Bo Raxo" <cheneys...@nospam.deathsdoor.com> wrote:
>
> > > I think it is irresponsible for gay guys to hit up straight guys.
> > >
> > > Metal Recruit
> >
> > How about when straight guys hit on gay women?
> >
> > Or when gay women hit on straight women?
> >
> > Oh wait, these examples don't trigger homophobia, so they're okay,
right?
>
> this.
>
> It seems you have had *no* life experiences in this realm that have
> resulted in you learning something.
>
>
> Metal Recruit
So the answer would be: homophobia.
Here's a clue: if you're a guy, and you live in the San Francisco Bay Area,
and you're even remotely attractive, sooner or later some guy will hit on
you. Maybe it hasn't happened to you, but like I said, remotely attractive.
When it does, it makes a fella feel uncomfortable, especially when the gay
guy doesn't get the hint and leave you alone. It also makes a guy, or at
least it did me, re-think some of the times I had hit on women and kept
pestering them after getting an initial cold shoulder, thinking that
persistance sometimes pays off (rarely, but it's been known to happen).
After having a fellow I worked with relentlessly try to flirt, I gained an
understanding of how women feel about sexual harassment in the workplace
that no amount of theoretical sympathizing could have given me.
But my life experience says that people are vary widely in both their
sexuality and their ability to take a hint. IF a guy hits on you, as a man,
you don't need to get angry or feel threatened. If you do, it says a lot
about your insecurity about yourself. Homophobia is just a weak-assed
excuse for discriminating based on an emotional reaction. It's like saying
"I'm not prejudiced against blacks, but I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing
a swimming pool or marrying my daughter off to one." You're all for
homosexuals having equal rights, as long as they don't exercise them in your
presence, right?
Hey, we can all be walking stereotypes. Obviously straight, obviously gay,
I suppose that works for some people.
But I'd like to think our society can outgrow that kind of 50s mentality.
That you and I, as men, can be defined by a lot more than where we like to
stick our dicks. And that can lead to ambiguity and confusion.
My life expereince says that the community isn't the gay community or the
straight community or the bisexual albino vegetarian community, it's the
famed melting pot where we all go to the same parties, we all drink in the
same bars, we all have friends and loved ones who are all over the map on
the spectrum of sexuality. I've worked in a place where on Friday, casual
day, there was a man who liked to come to work dressed as a woman. Nobody
batted an eye (or is that eyelash?). And beleive it or not, this was 20
years ago. I love the Bay Area.
Yeah, I've learned that some men are so insecure that they see nothing wrong
with them hitting on a gay woman since they couldn't read her mind and know
she was gay, but feel it's okay to be offended if some gay guy hits on them.
My life experience tells me that prejudice and narrow-mindedness in America
has retreated to become some polite, genteel form where it's okay to express
it in certain forms, basically to advocate that gay people can do whatever
they want as long as straight people don't have to see it or hear about it
or heaven forbid have it in the same party or bar or home right in front of
them.
And my life experience tells me that the only way to combat this "seperate
but equal" gay apartheid bullshit is for a heterosexual with a conscience to
stand up, and say that the homosexual has just the same right to express
himself as anyone else, and that if he makes a pass at you, deal with it.
That it is no excuse to exclude someone, much less beat them up, and that
homophobia is in the same category as racism.
Sometimes I haven't been as true to these values as I should be. Sometimes
I have remained silent when I should have stood up for someone, sometimes I
have let jerks think by my silence that I support their views. For that, I
do feel shame.
But every now and then I get to make up for it. Recently when the West
Coast ports were shut down by a strike I met a fellow eating dinner next to
me in the bar section of a restaurant. He was clad in cowboy boots, cowboy
hat, jeans, western shirt. His Texas drawl gave away his origins. And he
rattled on about how he wanted to go out drinking in some crowded jumpin'
bar, but wanted to make sure he didn't run in to "goddamn faggots".
I sent him to the End Up, where there are plenty of other people dressed
like him. And often quite a fair number of women, which means it would take
him some time to figure out it is (primarily) a gay bar. And boy, did I
feel good.
Okay kids, story time's over, all of you scoot off to bed!
As for you Mental, have you ever tried drinking in a gay bar? It might give
you some taste (so to speak) of how gays feel out of place in so many times
and places in hetero society. Certainly helped me to gain perspective. Take
a girl with you (as I did), you'll feel less threatened.
Take care,
Bo Raxo
Bo Raxo
> In article <au8soq$i2s$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Bo Raxo" <cheneys...@nospam.deathsdoor.com> wrote:
>
> > It also makes a guy, or at least it did me, re-think some of the
> > times I had hit on women and kept pestering them after getting an
> > initial cold shoulder, thinking that persistance sometimes pays off
> > (rarely, but it's been known to happen).
>
>
> I've never felt the need to pester a woman after getting the intial
> cold shoulder.
>
> Thanks for the insight into your psyche. My perception of you is coming
> into sharper focus.
>
> Metal Recruit
Yes, I have balls. Some gals play hard to get. Sometimes when girls react
strongly to you, it turns out its a thin line between love and hate. And
I've ended up in bed with women who initially found me obnoxious and
bad-mouthed me. It happens.
Perhaps if you had a bit more persistance, you'd have a more interesting
life. Some girls only like men with the confidence to knock on the door
more than once. You see, human mating rituals are not entirely rational.
But that you somehow expect them to be tells me a lot about your psyche.
You expect everyone to do the rational thing, and the world keeps
disappointing you. Explains quite a bit, actually.
Bo Raxo
> In article <au91bl$6kk$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Bo Raxo" <cheneys...@nospam.deathsdoor.com> wrote:
>
> > "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:v0g1pq8...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > In article <au8soq$i2s$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > > "Bo Raxo" <cheneys...@nospam.deathsdoor.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It also makes a guy, or at least it did me, re-think some of the
> > > > times I had hit on women and kept pestering them after getting an
> > > > initial cold shoulder, thinking that persistance sometimes pays off
> > > > (rarely, but it's been known to happen).
> > >
> > > Here's where we have different life experiences.
> > >
> > > I've never felt the need to pester a woman after getting the intial
> > > cold shoulder.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the insight into your psyche. My perception of you is
coming
> > > into sharper focus.
> > >
> > > Metal Recruit
> >
> > Yes, I have balls.
>
>
> > Some gals play hard to get.
>
> who were straightforward about what they wanted.
>
> > Sometimes when girls react
> > strongly to you, it turns out its a thin line between love and hate.
>
>
> FYI, no means no.
>
> > And I've ended up in bed with women who initially found me obnoxious
> > and bad-mouthed me. It happens.
>
>
> > Perhaps if you had a bit more persistance, you'd have a more interesting
> > life.
>
>
> > Some girls only like men with the confidence to knock on the door
> > more than once. You see, human mating rituals are not entirely
rational.
>
>
> > But that you somehow expect them to be tells me a lot about your psyche.
>
>
> > You expect everyone to do the rational thing, and the world keeps
> > disappointing you.
>
>
> > Explains quite a bit, actually.
>
> and <your name here>.
>
> Metal Recruit
You never deal with irrational women? Man, you haven't lived! "No" means
you need to read between the lines. Sometimes it means no. Sometimes it
means "not in front of my friends". Sometimes you just have to - in a
polite way - keep sniffin' around. Heck, it took me two years to get one
special girl in to my bed, and it was worth the effort, definately.
And I only had to say I have balls to contrast with someone who gets one
rejection and slinks off like a coward, i.e., you. Balls = persistance.
Admittedly, it took me some years to learn when and where that's
appropriate. But sometimes women look and act uninterested because they are
being coy, and are attracted to men with the confidence to pursue them.
Heck, that's one of the oldest and most oft-told stories in Western
literature.
If the only women you've dated are the ones who immediately responded in a
positive way, and only ones who are completely rational, it makes me think
you haven't dated much. Or had the pleasure of pursuing and wooing and
finally winning the hand of a woman who attracts a lot of men, and
automatically rejects every first attempt.
Trust me, you're missing out. Also, I recommend going to parties where
people are doing drugs, at least smoking pot, and don't go to "laugh at
their antics". Loosen up a little, Mental, and you might find there are
some fun women out there who don't act and react with perfect consistency or
rational thought to every advance.
Opposites attract; you might *like* a crazy gal. I know I have. I've even
dated a few Republicans; after a heated argument about politics the grudge
fuck can be exhilirating.
Bo Raxo
Big 6
male
homo-sexual and his "acting out" is to hang around men's public toilets
looking for anonymous sex he has a risk of young men beating him. Ect.,
There are safe environments where these people can "act out" but it
seems that there is an extra thrill if there is some danger involved.
I consider homo-sexual men having unprotected sex as a risk taking
acting
out which increases the thrill of the activity. You can teach tolerance
all you want, but when you add alcohol to the events things change.
Pat
Big 6
how much we try to become "civilized." When I heard that the US
Military
was changing the policy to "do not ask, do not tell" I knew that some
young men who were preceived to be "homo-sexual" would be killed by
their training comrades. I have been in that environment, I know the
probable reaction when there was alcohol involved. I do not condone the
behavior. I could also predict the behavior of a dog to certain
stimuli.
I am saying this is nature, not nurture. I also realize that society
has evolved much since I attended high school in the early 1960's. Back
then it was not said but i can characterize the behavior of society as
"a nail that sticks up will be hammered down." We all wish for certain
civility from our fellow man but I do not think we have evolved enuf.
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d0enh...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > We could have a discussion about whether this kid deserved to be
> > murdered...but it would only take about two minutes because we all agree
> > that he should not have been.
>
> Hmmm... I'm not so sure you feel that way.
>
> >
> > We have a discussion about whether or not he acted recklessly, putting
> > himself in harm's way needlessly. That's a much more complicated
> > discussion that will span many, many posts.
>
> We all put ourselves in harm's way on a daily basis. It's really not that
> complicated at all. Your reckless behavior defense of the perpetrators
> holds absolutley no substance. Period.
>
> >
> > Does that mean we don't care that he was murdered because we don't go on
> > and on about it? No. It means that there's not a lot of discussion when
> > there is universal agreement, unless you want to go AOL on us and post
> > dozens of "me too" messages.
>
> What this really means is, you are in way over your head and are trying to
> back down from your statements. Using AOL as your excuse to extricate
> yourself is rather unique, but cowardly.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Metal Recruit
> >
Big 6
"Gwen" was the only one killed because "Gwen" was the only one who
provoked the reaction from the drunken young men. For example if
I was in a social setting with Blacks and Caucasians, and if I called
a Black man "stupid, dump, Nxxxer" and if they had been much alcohol
consumed by the teenage Black men I would predict that I would be
physically; I would further predict I would be the only Caucasian who
would be physically assaulted. The news accounts said "Gwen" was
flirting with the men, but we do not know the exact behavior. I have
seen the style teenagers dance today with the woman in front of the
man, with the woman's posterior rubbing against the groin of the man.
If this happened, and if the young men were sexually stimulated and then
found out if was a guy they would take heat from their peers for the
rest of their lives.
Pat
assaulted
tiny dancer wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d4851...@corp.supernews.com...
> > In article <9e2d0v0knqv16lq20...@4ax.com>,
> > Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> decided to stand up and
> > > say:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"Coyote" <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:dl0d0v05vmmn3a81s...@4ax.com...
> > > >
> > > >> Interesting. What is that "real issue" you think is bothering
> > > >> him, Michael?
> > > >
> > > >I think the real issue is MR's belief the victim duped one or
> > > >possibly more of the perpetrators into sex. From what I have read,
> > > >there was no mention of sexual encounters between the victim and the
> > > >perpetrator. It's a non issue as far as murder is concerned anyway.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's my understanding and view, too. I hate to keep banging this
> > > particular drum, but I definitely get the feeling that MR -- from
> > > what he's said (in so many words) -- believes "Gwen" kind of got what
> > > he "deserved."
> >
> > Stop "feelilng" and starting "thinking."
> >
> > The boy didn't deserve what he got. However, had he behaving in a more
> > intelligent and responsible manner (and his mother was no help), this
> > would not have happened to him.
> >
> > Do you feel that, as individuals, we have no responsibility for our own
> > safety?
> >
> >
> > Metal Recruit
>
> If he was killed because he was behaving in an irresponsible manner, why was
Michael Lonergan
"Bo Raxo" <cheneys...@nospam.deathsdoor.com> wrote in message
news:au8soq$i2s$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> And my life experience tells me that the only way to combat this "seperate
> but equal" gay apartheid bullshit is for a heterosexual with a conscience
to
> stand up, and say that the homosexual has just the same right to express
> himself as anyone else, and that if he makes a pass at you, deal with it.
> That it is no excuse to exclude someone, much less beat them up, and that
> homophobia is in the same category as racism.
>
> Sometimes I haven't been as true to these values as I should be.
Sometimes
> I have remained silent when I should have stood up for someone, sometimes
I
> have let jerks think by my silence that I support their views. For that,
I
> do feel shame.
Great post. Thanks. As for your shame, no need to feel that way. Sounds
like you're trying to be part of the solution. Progress is the name of the
game. I don't think we'll ever see perfection.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
>
> Why don't you quit being a coward and just admit that you're a
> homophobe, you sad little man?
I believe coward is the key word.
>It's what I've suspected all along,
> but have been loathe to suggest it because it's a term that's overused
> -- and frequently wrongly so. That's what this is all about, isn't
> it, that you have major problems with homosexuals? I see someone in
> another group has stated that you think calling people "fags" is funny
> ("Besides, what does any of that have to do with the fact that Metal
> Recruit thinks calling people fags is humorous?), among other things.
> Incidentally, that person also called you an "asshole," Metal-boy, and
> I think that about sums it up.
>
> Loser.
I think this pretty much sums it up nicely. He's not interested in any type
of debate, has offered nothing to back up his broad statements and has
resorted to name calling. Yes, loser is adequate.
Michael
>
> --
> Coyote
Michael Lonergan
>
> If nothing else, he's just not the brightest bulb on the Christmas
> tree LOL He's getting really, really tiresome.
LOL... I agree, although I don't think he's intentionally malicious. I
think he doesn't know any better which is why he appears to be looking in
any direction but the perpetrators that commited the murder, for someone to
blame.
Reminds me of how women were/are put on the defensive after being raped.
People would ask dumb assed questions like "Why was she wearing that" or
"What was she doing there" etc.
Michael Lonergan
>
> I guess that's because my gay friends think calling each other "fag" is
> funny. They think "homo" is funny too, as well as "queer."
I suppose it's a matter of taste.
>
> It seems you've either a) never met a homosexual or b) have only met
> extremely repressed closeted gays.
I think you're wrong.
>
> Back in my roommate days, I had two homosexual roommates (not at the
> same time).
OMG! Nan, meet MR. MR meet Nan. You both have something in common. You
both know 2 homosexuals.
>
> One was an extremely flamboyant cross-dresser.
By flamboyant, I assume you mean your friend engaged in risky behavior by
appearing in drag in public areas. What was his mother like? Has anyone
bludgeoned, murdered and buried him?
>The other was a bisexual
> woman that was not the least bit flamboyant (not a lipstick lesbian or
> a dyke), but not the least bit ashamed of her lesbian instincts.
>
> They'd laugh at your assertions and assumptions...right in your dumb
> fucking face.
I don't think so. I think, if what you say is true, your friends would feel
much like I, and coyote do about your statements regarding Eddie's murder.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> Metal Recruit <cluet...@nononospam.com> decided to stand up and
> say:
>
> >In article <3E081B7D...@hotmail.com>,
> > Big 6 <patty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Gwen" was the only one killed because "Gwen" was the only one who
> >> provoked the reaction from the drunken young men. For example if
> >> I was in a social setting with Blacks and Caucasians, and if I called
> >> a Black man "stupid, dump, Nxxxer" and if they had been much alcohol
> >> consumed by the teenage Black men I would predict that I would be
> >> physically; I would further predict I would be the only Caucasian who
> >> would be physically assaulted.
> >
> >nigger" is pretty inflamatory, though I'm sure the liberals here would
> >say that you should be able to express your opinions wherever you want
> >in 100% safety.
> >
> >Scenario:
> >
> >Ro Baxo, a blue-eyed, blond-haired white guy goes into a bar in the part
> >of town where all the patrons are black. Ro goes with three of his white
> >friends. They sit down, have a drink, and don't bother anyone.
> >
> >Ro asks a woman to dance. She says no. Following Bo Raxo's advice, Ro
> >decides to be persistent. He wants to prove he has balls and is not a
> >coward, of course.
> >
> >Other patrons object to Ro's persistance, and tell him to stop.
> >
> >The lady in question offers no opinion, so Ro returns to his persistent
> >behavior.
> >
> >Other patrons take Ro outside and beat the living shit out of Ro.
> >
> >Wrong? Yes.
> >
> >Do I have any sympathy for Ro? No, not really.
> >
>
> But would you have any sympathy for Bo if he was beaten *to death*?
He might have reduced sympathy, or whatever that hogwash he posted earlier
in the thread. I don't know if MR's intent was to somehow tie the fantasy
above somehow into the very real murder of Eddie. If that was his intent,
he's failed miserably.
Michael
tiny dancer
> Metal Recruit <cluet...@nononospam.com> decided to stand up and
> say:
>
> >In article <6ork0voi00dbpt2sv...@4ax.com>,
> > Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Metal Recruit <cluet...@nononospam.com> decided to stand up and
> >> say:
> >>
> >> >In article <ommk0vkf6rcbh5ed7...@4ax.com>,
> >> > Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hey, several times you've referred to the mysterious posters who you
> >> >> say disagree with me, and when I've asked who they are you've
ignored
> >> >> the question. I would really like to know, since to my knowledge no
> >> >> one but you has actually expressed any disagreement whatsoever with
> >> >> what I've said...which, incidentally, cannot be said for you.
> >> >> Enquiring minds want to know!
> >> >
> >> >I don't keep track of who posts what. Go ahead and look in the Google
> >> >archives if you care.
> >> >
> >> >Besides, I only claimed they understood where I was coming from, and
not
> >> >that they disagreed with you.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yet again you are so full of shit. Remember this? I cut-and-pasted
> >> it from one of your posts:
> >>
> >> "Coyote, the posters who have figured out where I'm coming from most
> >> assuredly do not agree with you."
> >>
> >> Now what do you have to say to that, smart guy?
> >
> >They may have agreed with your opinion on the issue at hand, but they
> >disagreed with your claim that you understood where I'm coming from.
> >
> First you say without qualification that they never disagreed with me,
> and now you say they did. Which is it?
>
> AND AGAIN, JUST WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Can you not back up your
> assertion?
>
> >Context, Coyote...context.
I think you pegged it right the first time......."these people" only exist
in his head, none of the rest of us can see/hear them.
td
> >
> >>
> >> >Are you drinking lots of spiked egg nog today?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Are you smoking crack again today?
> >>
> >> Anyway, are you going to answer or not? Just who are these posters
> >> who you say disagree with me? Are they real, living people, or the
> >> little folks who live in your head and whisper things to you?
> >
> >You've run out of things to say, haven't you?
> >
> >Have you considered just not posting when that happens?
> >
> >Metal Recruit
Bo Raxo
> Metal Recruit <cluet...@nononospam.com> decided to stand up and
> say:
>> >> Metal Recruit <cluet...@nononospam.com> decided to stand up and
> >> say:
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> Are you smoking crack again today?
> >>
> >> Anyway, are you going to answer or not? Just who are these posters
> >> who you say disagree with me? Are they real, living people, or the
> >> little folks who live in your head and whisper things to you?
> >
> >You've run out of things to say, haven't you?
> >
> >Have you considered just not posting when that happens?
> >
> >Metal Recruit
>
>
> --
> Coyote
>
> To reply by e-mail, it's dexx...@mchsi.com.
C, you really have to allow for Mental's extremely short attention span. If
it can't be expressed - or comprehended - in one post, and two sentences at
the most, its lost on him.
He's big on the quips, though unfortunately he's like that kid in elementary
school who got a laugh once and then had to comment on everything the
teacher said. The one in fifty that are funny don't make it worth listening
to (or in this case, reading) the other forty nine.
And I'm being generous with that ratio.
But what the hell, it's Christmas.
Big 6
behavior has consequences.
Pat
Metal Recruit wrote:
>
> In article <3E081B7D...@hotmail.com>,
> Big 6 <patty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Gwen" was the only one killed because "Gwen" was the only one who
> > provoked the reaction from the drunken young men. For example if
> > I was in a social setting with Blacks and Caucasians, and if I called
> > a Black man "stupid, dump, Nxxxer" and if they had been much alcohol
> > consumed by the teenage Black men I would predict that I would be
> > physically; I would further predict I would be the only Caucasian who
> > would be physically assaulted.
>
> I'm not really comfortable with that analogy, because "stupid, dumb,
> nigger" is pretty inflamatory, though I'm sure the liberals here would
> say that you should be able to express your opinions wherever you want
> in 100% safety.
>
> Scenario:
>
> Ro Baxo, a blue-eyed, blond-haired white guy goes into a bar in the part
> of town where all the patrons are black. Ro goes with three of his white
> friends. They sit down, have a drink, and don't bother anyone.
>
> Ro asks a woman to dance. She says no. Following Bo Raxo's advice, Ro
> decides to be persistent. He wants to prove he has balls and is not a
> coward, of course.
>
> Other patrons object to Ro's persistance, and tell him to stop.
>
> The lady in question offers no opinion, so Ro returns to his persistent
> behavior.
>
> Other patrons take Ro outside and beat the living shit out of Ro.
>
> Wrong? Yes.
>
> Do I have any sympathy for Ro? No, not really.
>
> He behaved like an idiot, and paid for it in a way that any reasonable
> person would expect.
>
> Metal Recruit
tiny dancer
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> decided to stand up
> certainly hope not.
>
> --
> Coyote
Try not to worry, more likely it's too much egg-nog.......you know you're
not supposed to drink with all those meds.........perhaps once the holidays
are over and he dries out again 'the voices' will settle down and go to
sleep. <g>
td
Big 6
mean physical contact or just verbal banter. If the flirting was
directed at one of the of the young men who enjoyed the attention when
the deception was discovered his peer group would ridicule him into
physical violence. If "Gwen" danced with the young men in the style
that is popular today "Gwen" would have used her backside to stimulate
the young men's groin by rubbing, I think this would create a physical
assault. I think it was the peer group that young men have at that age,
and the alcohol contributed to the violence.
I would like a more detailed description of the events of the night.
This incident could instructive, and might save future tragedies of
this type.
Pat
tiny dancer wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
Big 6
in that they did not receive much positive attention from women,
especially when they were in their "peer group" where they were a
couple of notches down on the food chain. The attention of a female
to this type of young man would be very flattering, and very devast-
ating if he had been tricked.
Pat
tiny dancer wrote:
>
> "Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote in message
> news:vZwN9.2485$b97.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:v0d4ohe...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > In article <5o3d0vsh24548uvkj...@4ax.com>,
> > > Coyote <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Ever heard of oral sex?
> >
> > Yes, but then I've always been to shy to engage in such filthy practices
> > (fingers crossed)
> >
> > >
> > > > I (and I guess Michael) have heard otherwise; I've opined that that
> > > > assertion may be false -- akin to the ugly "gay panic" defense that is
> > > > offered so often in homosexual hate crime cases.
> > >
> > > Could be.
> > >
> > > I think it is irresponsible for gay guys to hit up straight guys.
> >
> > I really hate to burst your bubble on this one, but in this day and age,
> > it's next to impossible to determine sexual orientation in some people.
> > That being said, I assume you mean also that it is irresponsible for str8
> > guys to hit up gay guys? Yes, it has happened to me, on many occasions.
> > Next, why is it irresponsible to do so on either side? A simple 'no thank
> > you' is usually enough to get the message across that you are not
> > interested.
>
> Women are hit upon by creeps they don't like or want all the time, believe
> me there are perfectly acceptable ways of discouraging someones attention
> that fall far short of murder. Why is it guys feel so threatened by
> something they do all the time to women? So someone hits on you and your
> not interested.......big deal.
>
> td
>
> >
> > I really don't think it necessary to bludgeon, strangle and bury a person
> of
> > a different sexual orientation if they have made a pass at you.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Metal Recruit
> > >
> >
> >
Bo Raxo
And now those little bastards can spend the next 20 years locked up
exclusively in the company of men. Really get in touch with their
homophobia.
Ah, sweet justice. Now that makes for a merry Christmas!
Bo
"Big 6" <patty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E0A9D6D...@hotmail.com...
Michael Lonergan
>
> At least I make sense, as you don't in the one before the above (and
> many, many others).
>
> Metal Recruit
If you make sense, why do you sound as if you've just been the happy
recipient of a full frontal lobotomy?
Michael
Big 6
have been occasions when I was 95% the "woman" I was dancing with
was a guy. My reaction was to not ask "her' to dance again. I was
a little angry that I had been tricked, but it was no big deal. This
dance experience is different that sitting at a bar on a barstool when
I feel a hand moving up my thigh to wards my crotch, and a tongue in
my ear. A man is not supposed to get sexually aroused by another man.
There are too many situations where men come into physical contact with
each other, and sexual arousal would be counter productive. This is
not a HOMOSEXUAL issue. This is not a HOMO-PHOBIA issue. This is about
young men tricked into sexual arousal by a cross-dresser.
tiny dancer wrote:
>
> "Coyote" <lamb...@dinner.com> wrote in message
> news:5o3d0vsh24548uvkj...@4ax.com...
> > "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> decided to stand up
> > and say:
> >
> > >
> > >"Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> > >news:v0ce8ef...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >> In article <f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com>,
> > >> eartha...@yahoo.com (Patty) quoted a news story:
> > >>
> > >> > "Churches, schools and entire communities need to open their doors to
> > >> > kids like mine," his mom said, looking at photos of Eddie as a baby,
> > >> > toddler, child and young adult. "We need to teach tolerance. There
> are
> > >> > a lot of people like my Eddie out there."
> > >>
> > >> Your Eddie was a drug using, sexually misleading little piece of shit.
> > >>
> > >> Sorry he died, but he was acting in a reckless, dangerous manner, and
> > >> that was bound to catch up with him.
> > >>
> > >> Instead of expecting us to teach tolerance for a guy who would pass
> > >> himself off as a girl and have sexual relations with a guy, she should
> > >> have been teaching the little joker to behave.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Metal Recruit
> > >
> > >
> > >Wait a minute here, I read this whole story but I missed the 'acting in a
> > >reckless and dangerous manner'?? Where exactly was that part? From what
> I
> > >read the kid went to a party, as many kids do......that's all. For this
> he
> > >gets beaten to death, strangled and dumped in a shallow grave?
> > >
> > >td
> > >
> > Recruit believes -- correctly or not -- that the kid passed himself
> > off as a female and had sex with a number of men at the party, and
> > that the men became enraged and murdered him when they discovered his
> > true gender. (I wonder just what kind of sex they're talking about,
> > if the men were unaware he was a male when they supposedly did the
> > deeds).
> >
> > I (and I guess Michael) have heard otherwise; I've opined that that
> > assertion may be false -- akin to the ugly "gay panic" defense that is
> > offered so often in homosexual hate crime cases.
> >
> > --
> > Coyote
>
> Yea, I got the basics of the story, like you I wondered exactly 'what' the
> supposed sex was? I mean even oral sex usually entails quite a bit of
> feeling up. If any sex had happened, which I didn't read from this
> particular article, how could all these guys not know she was a he? I'm
> quite leery of the sex part, don't believe it for a moment. What I read was
> some big mouth girl came upon him in the bathroom and opened her big
> trap.......and when the trouble started she and her beloved supposedly
> split.
>
> I'm with you, this sounds like a typical hate crime. Personally I thought
> his mother sounded very caring and concerned for her sons well being. I
> thought she handled his gender identity problem far better than 95% of
> parents would. It sounds to me all this poor kid did was have the
> misfortune to be a girl in a boys body.
Big 6
bar this is frequented by young military men. "Flirt" with the guys.
Then pull off your hair wig and expose yourself as a guy. Let me
know the reaction. Is it homo-phobia or is it revulsion??
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d4ch2...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > He went to a drug party with the goal of becoming intoxicated.
>
> {{{{{{{{{{{{{GASP}}}}}}}}}} Well, then by all means he deserved to be
> murdered. Jesus MR, you have just murdered and buried 1/2 the teenage
> population of he United States. Get real, will you.
>
> >With
> > something to hide like he had, it was not wise to be intoxicated in the
> > company of other intoxicated people who may not like the secret you're
> > hiding.
>
> I *really* wish you would reread this a couple of times. Seriously.
>
> >
> > His mother, knowing he was going to a drug party to get high, was
> > exhibiting gross negligence.
>
> Good God. If he'd told her he was going to the ballet would that have made
> her less responsible in your eyes? I doubt it.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Metal Recruit
> >
tiny dancer
> The men reacted for a reason. I do a lot of ballroom dancing. There
> have been occasions when I was 95% the "woman" I was dancing with
> was a guy. My reaction was to not ask "her' to dance again. I was
> a little angry that I had been tricked, but it was no big deal. This
> dance experience is different that sitting at a bar on a barstool when
> I feel a hand moving up my thigh to wards my crotch, and a tongue in
> my ear. A man is not supposed to get sexually aroused by another man.
> There are too many situations where men come into physical contact with
> each other, and sexual arousal would be counter productive.
Say what????????
td
Big 6
can "act out" without the consequences.
Pat
tiny dancer wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d8a3h...@corp.supernews.com...
> > In article <3NwN9.59291$uJ5.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> > "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Exactly, sorry I neglected that, I was mainly addressing the issue that
> > > somehow by going to this party he was behaving in an irresponsible and
> > > dangerous manner, enough so that he was killed for it, and both he and
> his
> > > mother should have anticipated this result.
> >
> > If Eddie had been an honest, up-front, stand-up guy, I doubt that any of
> > this would have happened.
>
> I certainly don't claim to be an expert on transsexuals, but the way I
> understand it Eddie wasn't 'a stand up guy' to begin with. Eddie was a girl
> stuck in a guys body. That was the whole problem. Yeah, that's alot maybe
> for young people this age to comprehend, but to kill him for it is totally
> unacceptable. I mean, Eddie was just a kid too, trying to live a life of
> confusion himself. I understand what you're trying to say here, yeah some
> of the guys at the party were pissed. So what?? So you go and kill him
> because these guys are pissed?
>
> >
> > Unfortunately, he was engaging in a deception that he, and especially
> > his mom, should have known was extremely risky.
> >
> > I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in any
> > sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female is
> > extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
>
> Hell, I'm confused by the whole mess, I can't imagine being Eddie or his
> mother.........how the hell I'd handle it? I know I'd feel compasion for my
> son, try to understand how it must feel to be a female trapped in a males
> body. How would you handle it if you were a guy trapped in a girls body???
> So you're a guy, trapped in a female body, you're attracted to other
> females.......how the hell would you handle it?? Eddie was obviously
> serious about it, he wanted a sex change operation. Eddie wasn't
> gay.......he was a transsexual, big difference there, ya know??
>
> >
> > For that mom to send Junior out there in a dress and endorse his
> > deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
> > simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he is,
>
> If someone else here is more knowledgeable about transsexuals please correct
> me, but Eddie wasn't trying to hide who he was, he was trying to be 'who he
> felt he was inside'......... What kind of mother trys to screw her poor kid
> up even more by insisting he deny what he really 'feels' about himself and
> portray himself as the 'man that he isn't'? This mother and son were in a
> no win situation until Eddie could have a sex change operation. Besides
> that, the way I understand it, one of the criteria for sex change surgery is
> living as the other sex for a period of time to be sure that's what's going
> on, isn't it? No matter what WTF raised these animals that killed Eddie.
> If you want to talk about piss-poor parents, talk about the kind of parents
> that raise kids without a conscious?? Kids who can murder someone in cold
> blood, refer to him as 'it', and bury him without any remorse. That's where
> your piss-poor parenting comes in. I've raised teenagers, and I can
> guarantee you I didn't raise anything that could kill somebody.
>
> td
> > and forbid him to go into situations where he'd be intoxicated around
> > anyone he couldn't 100% trust.
> >
> > She stunk as a mother, and now she's got a dead kid on her hands.
> >
> > Metal Recruit
Big 6
The deception is the reason for the execution. Among the hispanic
young men where I live in Northern California if one man goes to a
party that is hosted by members of a rival gang he will be killed
when he enters the party. The fact that "Gwen" was not killed at the
beginning of the party but later which leads me to speculate that
"Gwen's" behavior provoked the attack.
Pat
>
> >
> > I would hope that you would agree that for him to have engaged in any
> > sort of sexual activities while portraying himself as a female is
> > extremely dishonest, disreputable and, ultimately, dangerous.
>
> I still have to read where any sexual activity took place. Even if it did,
> it has nothing to do with executing the victim.
>
> >
> > For that mom to send Junior out there in a dress and endorse his
> > deceptive behavior, and giving a wink and a nod to his drug use, is
> > simply outrageous. She should have insisted that he not hide who he is,
> > and forbid him to go into situations where he'd be intoxicated around
> > anyone he couldn't 100% trust.
>
> Hmmm... so now his mother forced him out of the house dressed as he was.
> Your statements get more curious as you continue. When is the last time you
> tried to tell a teenager how to dress?
>
> >
> > She stunk as a mother, and now she's got a dead kid on her hands.
>
> So now it's the mother's fault. You really have you head in the sand.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Metal Recruit
> >
Big 6
unusual in that it sounded from the news accounts that this was the
first time "Gwen" went to a party. I think "Gwen" got into a situation
that due to inexperience, and naivety "Gwen" could not get out of, and
paid the ultimate price.
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d4851...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > Stop "feelilng" and starting "thinking."
> >
> > The boy didn't deserve what he got. However, had he behaving in a more
> > intelligent and responsible manner (and his mother was no help), this
> > would not have happened to him.
>
> He went to a party. What is uncommon, unintelligent and irresponsible about
> those actions? Are you saying every teen that behaves the same way will be
> murdered or responsible for harm done to them at the hands of others?
>
> >
> > Do you feel that, as individuals, we have no responsibility for our own
> > safety?
>
> Of course we are responsible for taking care of ourselves.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> >
> > Metal Recruit
> >
Big 6
reckless behavior. Why else did "Gwen" end up dead???????
Just because in the movies gays laugh up their sleeves at straits
does not mean that is reality.
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d0i4i...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > If you know it's dangerous to sit on your front porch after dark, then,
> > yes, it's reckless to do so.
>
> I see. And you are the judge of what is or is not reckless behavior?
>
> >
> > How much simpler does it get?
>
> Indeed <huge eyeroll>
>
> >
> > > You are conveniently trying
> > > to sidestep the real issue that's bothering you. Reckless behavior,
> indeed.
> >
> > What "real issue" do you think is bothering me?
>
> I just addressed this in another post to Coyote.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Metal Recruit
> >
Big 6
a group of young men. Neither of us were at the party so we do not
know what happened, but to create that much rage in those young men
something must have happened. Something had to provoke this anger.
What is your guess?????
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Metal Recruit" <cluet...@nononospam.com> wrote in message
> news:v0d0t0m...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > Sorry, but I think that is good enough.
>
> The key words you just used are "I think".
>
> >
> > What is your criteria for "good enough"?
>
> My criteria for good enough would be a statement from you backing up your
> beliefs this child was responsible for his own murder with his mother as an
> accomplice. Nothing you have said so far lends credence to your original
> statements. Nothing.
>
> >
> > What is "behaving" about what he was doing?
>
> Again, I have no idea what you mean by this?! "Behaving about what he was
> doing"? If you could be less vague perhaps I could answer you.
>
> Michael
>
> >
> > Metal Recruit
> >
Learn Eee
http://bobc_3.tripod.com/live.html
http://www.strangepages.net/serial.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/hatecrimes980611.html
http://www.c-s-i.org/index2.html
http://www.cleveland.com/live/
http://www.fbi.gov/kids/6th12th/6th12th.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/1776/
http://alexandrarose.tripod.com/cam6.html
http://www2.amw.com/amw2.html http://www.interpol.com/
http://hate-crime.website-works.com/overview.htm
nanl...@claque.net
>
> The men reacted for a reason. I do a lot of ballroom dancing. There
> have been occasions when I was 95% the "woman" I was dancing with
> was a guy. My reaction was to not ask "her' to dance again. I was
> a little angry that I had been tricked, but it was no big deal. This
> dance experience is different that sitting at a bar on a barstool when
> I feel a hand moving up my thigh to wards my crotch, and a tongue in
> my ear. A man is not supposed to get sexually aroused by another man.
> There are too many situations where men come into physical contact with
> each other, and sexual arousal would be counter productive. This is
> not a HOMOSEXUAL issue. This is not a HOMO-PHOBIA issue. This is about
> young men tricked into sexual arousal by a cross-dresser.
>
Do you do competitive dancing? I can see the *extreme* costuming, hair,
makeup of the women in competitive ballroom dancing as being just the
cup of tea for a drag queen, can't you? Now that you've said this, I'm
going to watch ballroom competitions in a whole new light.
Martha
Michael Lonergan
> have been occasions when I was 95% the "woman" I was dancing with
> was a guy. My reaction was to not ask "her' to dance again. I was
> a little angry that I had been tricked, but it was no big deal. This
> dance experience is different that sitting at a bar on a barstool when
> I feel a hand moving up my thigh to wards my crotch, and a tongue in
> my ear. A man is not supposed to get sexually aroused by another man.
> There are too many situations where men come into physical contact with
> each other, and sexual arousal would be counter productive. This is
> not a HOMOSEXUAL issue. This is not a HOMO-PHOBIA issue. This is about
> young men tricked into sexual arousal by a cross-dresser.
Read the articles. There was nothing, I repeat, nothing in the news
articles that suggested anything sexual happened. Period. From what the
article stated, one of the perpetrator's girlfriends came out of the
bathroom and announced that it's a him or something similar. If the young
men were sexually aroused by the thought of Eddie being a male, that of
course would be their issue. These fuckwits bludgeoned and beat another
human being to death because he was a cross dresser, NOT because anything
sexual happened. Now, you can bury your head up MR's ass all you like but
the facts remain. Eddie was killed by homophobic fools.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> Michael: Try this experiment, get dressed as a female, then go to a
> bar this is frequented by young military men. "Flirt" with the guys.
> Then pull off your hair wig and expose yourself as a guy. Let me
> know the reaction. Is it homo-phobia or is it revulsion??
> Pat
1) In the scenario above, the odds I would get laid would most likely be
far greater then my being bludgeoned to death and buried in a shallow grave.
2) Not all cross dresser are homosexuals
3) Eddie's perps were uneducated scum who's manly egos somehow felt
threatened. The were not in a bar frequented by military men.
4) The scenario makes no difference one way or another. Read your own
last question and answer it yourself. The question itself makes no rational
sense.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> "Gwen's" behavior is the reason there are "gay" bars where these people
> can "act out" without the consequences.
> Pat
Gwen was too young to legally gain entrance to the gay bars. What do you
mean by "act out"? By being themselves?
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> Michael:
> The deception is the reason for the execution.
What was the deception? I assume by this statement, even if there was
deception in gaining sexual favors (which has not been reported or alluded
to in the press I've read), it's okay to bludgeon and murder him.
>Among the hispanic
> young men where I live in Northern California if one man goes to a
> party that is hosted by members of a rival gang he will be killed
> when he enters the party.
So you're equating this with gang behavior? You're blind as a bat.
>The fact that "Gwen" was not killed at the
> beginning of the party but later which leads me to speculate that
> "Gwen's" behavior provoked the attack.
The key word is speculate. What behavior is acceptable to you to warrant
being murdered and buried?
Michael
> Pat
Michael Lonergan
> HELLO!!!!! going to a party???? Dressed!!!! This situation was
> unusual in that it sounded from the news accounts that this was the
> first time "Gwen" went to a party. I think "Gwen" got into a situation
> that due to inexperience, and naivety "Gwen" could not get out of, and
> paid the ultimate price.
> Pat
So what is unusual about going to a party for the first time? HELLO!!!!!
DUH!!!! Gwen did not get himself into a situation according the the news
accounts. 4 ignorant thugs beat him to death and buried him because he was
dressed in drag. Period.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> What are the consequences??? "Gwen" ended up dead due to "Gwen's"
> reckless behavior. Why else did "Gwen" end up dead???????
> Just because in the movies gays laugh up their sleeves at straits
> does not mean that is reality.
> Pat
For starters, your top posting statement addresses nothing in the post below
it. Now, when one of your relatives is beaten and murdered for walking
across a dark parking lot tonight will you say the same thing? Walking a
long distance in the dark is reckless behavior and the relative deserved it
because of said behavior? You and MR are so immersed in the ridiculous, you
don't even know what the reality is.
Michael
tiny dancer
"Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote in message
Actually I was most offended by the 'these people'.........anytime anybody
starts out with 'these people' it raises my hackles.
td
>
>
tiny dancer
"Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote in message
Makes about as much sense as most of the other stuff he's written.
td
>
>
tiny dancer
This
> dance experience is different that sitting at a bar on a barstool when
> I feel a hand moving up my thigh to wards my crotch, and a tongue in
> my ear. A man is not supposed to get sexually aroused by another man.
> There are too many situations where men come into physical contact with
> each other, and sexual arousal would be counter productive.
I swear to god this sounds exactly like some of Archie Bunkers convoluted
logic.
td
Michael Lonergan
"tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_66P9.84615$uJ5.6...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
I doubt anything could bother me more than the news article quoting at least
one of the townspeople, that knew of the murder and did not report it,
referring to Eddie as "it"
Michael
tiny dancer
"Michael Lonergan" <fur...@claqueNOT.net> wrote in message
I know, when I was reading that article it just made my heart hurt. That's
how stuff like that effects me, I get an ache in my heart, the only way I
know how to describe it. For the life of me, I just can't understand how
people can raise kids like this. Of all the things in the world my kids
might have gotten into growing up, being mean to someone or hurting someone
physically or emotionally would have been the absolute hardest thing for me
to take. I remember an acquaintance once, one of her sons killed an
animal.........and I thought to myself "I don't know how I could ever look
at him as my son again". I'd always wonder where that evil came from inside
him, how it got there, and how much of it there was inside him.'.......that
sort of thing.
td
>
>
Big 6
that "Gwen" had oral sex or offered sex, then was discovered to be a
"chick with a dick." Something happened to cause the beating.
Pat
Big 6
Neither you nor I were at the party, but I have had some experience
with "flirtatious" x-dressers.
Pat
Big 6
Darwins therory of evolution???? I also watch football,therefore, I
must be one of those.
Pat
Big 6
homophobia. I believe their reaction was to being tricked into sexual
arousal by a member of the same sex.
Pat
Big 6
therefore, all the children had to attend public schools, which is why
they probably did not know about reporting a crime. There were probably
lower class standards in the community which may explain why "gay
bashing" was acceptable behavior.
Pat
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Patty" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:f0e77308.02122...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > In one telling account of what had happened, Newark resident Brian
> > Seabrands, who was not at the party but had heard the rumors, told
> > police that things went wrong after guys at a party "found out it
> > (Eddie) wasn't a chick, beat the hell out of it, killed it and
> > supposedly buried it in South Lake Tahoe."
>
> And people wonder why hate crime legislation is needed. The quoted
> statement above makes the case for hate crime legislation in the brief
> quoted material above. Damned shame. Anyone know if it's a criminal
> offense in Newark to have knowledge of a crime and not report it?
>
> Michael
Michael Lonergan
> I said the men beat "Gwen" to death for a reason. One possibilty is
> that "Gwen" had oral sex or offered sex, then was discovered to be a
> "chick with a dick." Something happened to cause the beating.
> Pat
Yes, something did happen according to the news report. One of the perp's
girlfriends came out of the bathroom and announced it's a him. You and MR
have this oral fixation going in this case and nothing, absolutely nothing
has been reported to even suggest such a fantasy occurred.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> The article said "Gwen" was "flirting", which is a provocative behavior.
> Neither you nor I were at the party, but I have had some experience
> with "flirtatious" x-dressers.
> Pat
Really?! Do tell of your experiences with x-dressers. Did you find it
necessary to murder them after the flirting?
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> I do not agree that the actions of the young men was motivated by
> homophobia. I believe their reaction was to being tricked into sexual
> arousal by a member of the same sex.
> Pat
Tricked into sexual arousal by a member of the same sex? Golly gee, and
after the girlfriend announced Eddie's sex too. Damned! You really aren't
this ignorant are you? And I don't mean that in a nasy way. Some people
are just plain old ignorant and can't seem to see past the end of their
noses.
Michael
Big 6
hand. There is the phenomenon of "suicide by cop." I think the
sexually undecided have a lot of conflict. We all know that the
high incident of suicide by young gay men. I believe the conflicts
they have endured their entire life create a culmination in their late
teens. Which I believe leads to "self-destructive" behavior, i.e.,
reckless sex leading to AIDS, alcoholism, drug abuse, abuse relation-
ships. What do you think Michael????
Pat
Michael Lonergan wrote:
>
> "Bo Raxo" <cheneys...@nospam.deathsdoor.com> wrote in message
> news:au8soq$i2s$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> >
> > And my life experience tells me that the only way to combat this "seperate
> > but equal" gay apartheid bullshit is for a heterosexual with a conscience
> to
> > stand up, and say that the homosexual has just the same right to express
> > himself as anyone else, and that if he makes a pass at you, deal with it.
> > That it is no excuse to exclude someone, much less beat them up, and that
> > homophobia is in the same category as racism.
> >
> > Sometimes I haven't been as true to these values as I should be.
> Sometimes
> > I have remained silent when I should have stood up for someone, sometimes
> I
> > have let jerks think by my silence that I support their views. For that,
> I
> > do feel shame.
>
> Great post. Thanks. As for your shame, no need to feel that way. Sounds
> like you're trying to be part of the solution. Progress is the name of the
> game. I don't think we'll ever see perfection.
>
> Michael
Michael Lonergan
> I think the town of Newark would be described as a "working class" town,
> therefore, all the children had to attend public schools, which is why
> they probably did not know about reporting a crime.
Un-fucking believable.
> There were probably
> lower class standards in the community which may explain why "gay
> bashing" was acceptable behavior.
> Pat
Uh-huh.
Michael <- thinks it's time to feed this one and MR to some of the kiddies
"over there."
Big 6
I have a place that needs tolerance taught. I live about 100 miles
South of Newark. The hispanic males are constantly killing each other
because there is a continuous feud between the guys from the South
(Surenos) and the guys from the North(Notenos). You could do a lot
of good for the community if you could teach that tolerance thing.
Pat
Big 6
identifying "Gwen" as a guy to her boyfriend. There was a lot of anger
and rage behind the beating to death of "Gwen."
Big 6
of a human being. When I was younger I was much more tolerant of
sexual "acting out." I am less tolerable today of a man hanging out in
the public toilet looking for sex than I was when I was younger.
Pat
Michael Lonergan
> I am still of the opinion that something else happened besides a female
> identifying "Gwen" as a guy to her boyfriend. There was a lot of anger
> and rage behind the beating to death of "Gwen."
>
Oh yes, there was anger and rage and a lot of fear, IMO. It's called
homophobia in the extreme. As I said before, your boys will soon find out
what anger, rage and fear are really all about when they hear that final
thud of the door with iron bars.
Michael
Michael Lonergan
> No violence required. I just viewed the x-dresser as a pathetic excuse
> of a human being. When I was younger I was much more tolerant of
> sexual "acting out." I am less tolerable today of a man hanging out in
> the public toilet looking for sex than I was when I was younger.
> Pat
Now you're rambling but showing your true agenda... finally. What does
hanging out in a public toilet looking for sex have to do with cross
dressing?
Michael
Big 6
the concept???? When a pedophile is inter-acting sexually with children
this is sexual "acting out." When a rapist is on the prowl for a
victim, this is sexual "acting out" I would define sexual "acting
out" as behavior that will cause economic, social, or health problem
if the behavior is continued over a continuing period of time.
X-dressing
and then going to a party with strangers is "acting out" whereas
x-dressing then attending a social event where that behavior is accept
and encouraged would not be "acting out." You do not understand this
concept?????
Pat