Prediction for the Future of Titans Return

[Zobovor]

I've given Hasbro a lot of flak over the years for what I have perceived to be the poor management of the Transformers brand, and for a time I developed a reputation as something of a curmudgeon as a result. Lately, though, I've done nothing but sing their praises. As far as I'm concerned, they finally "get" Transformers again, and they're catering to my specific fan demographic in a way that I never realistically thought I'd ever see in my lifetime.

With that said: Hasbro has been systematically churning out great (or at least reasonably good!) updates for pretty much all the important Transformers characters, even to the point where they're delving into the delightfully obscure characters from 1987-88. (I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are huge fans of Prowl and Perceptor and Soundwave and Starscream, but there ain't nobody who loves Transformers because of Doublecross or Slugslinger.) There are still some really conspicuous gaps, though.

The Dinobots, for one. We got a Classics edition of Grimlock some ten years ago, and the Fall of Cybertron version that I honestly always forget exists (despite there being two of them in the Zob household), but people have been clamoring for Generations-era updates for the Dinobots. They're willing to spend hundreds of dollars on third-party Masterpiece style versions of the characters; surely Hasbro recognizes their innate fan appeal. Their absence in a toy line that has already skipped past first- and second-stringers and is celebrating third-tier nobodies like Triggerhappy and Getaway is, to put it mildly, a bit odd.

Related to that is the suspicious selectivity inherent to the Combiner Wars toy line. Once we started getting Aerialbots and Stunticons and Combaticons and Protectobots, our collective imaginations naturally turned to other combiner teams. Pretty much all the old super robots could have benefited from a modern-era update: Predaking, Abominus, Monstructor. Even the Dinobots would have been a welcome addition, but they were neglected, as always.

So, what do these guys have in common? Yeah, they're all animals. You could argue that beast modes simply had no place in the Combiner Wars assortment, given the huge number of cars and planes and such. So many of the beast forms are just variations on a theme, though. With some minor retooling, Tantrum could easily have become Headstrong or Slag or Bristleback. Swoop could serve double- or triple-duty as Cutthroat and Divebomb and Wildfly.

The suspicious absence of the animal teams, and JUST the animal teams, suggests to me that Hasbro hasn't forgotten them at all. They're planning something big. They're going to address all these missing characters in a big way, very probably all together in a single upcoming toy line for thematic purposes. It's also possible, though I admit significantly less likely, that they'll also include some of the 1987-88 characters who haven't gotten proper full-sized Titans Return toys (Apeface, Snapdragon, Fangry, Horri-Bull, Squeezeplay, etc.)

If there really is an animal-themed toy line on its way, they may even be saving a Titan-class version of Scorponok to release during this time, again for thematic reason. I'm well aware that Trypticon got the popular vote, but you can't possibly tell me that designs for Scorponok aren't already in the works. The fan voting process may have determined which character went into production first, but I see it as an inevitability that we'll get Scorponok (and Omega Supreme!) in the next few years.

So, what would a good name for this proposed toy line be? Something that would follow in the footsteps of Combiner Wars and Titans Return (whose working name was Titan Wars)? Why, what else could it possibly be?

Let it be called... BEAST WARS!

Naturally, such a toy line would also open the door for more Generations-style updates for the original Beast Wars characters. In a world where Masterpiece versions of Optimus Primal and Cheetor are generating so much fan excitement, it seems the time has finally come to cater to the now-adult collectors who were kids when Beast Wars originally aired. 2016 marks the 20th anniversary of its introduction. I've observed that 1980's nostalgia is falling out of fashion in favor of 1990's nostalgia (which has its perks; I actually found a Darkwing Duck T-shirt at Kohl's the other day). Hasbro's been trying, and failing, for years to reintroduce Beast Wars characters and I think now the time is finally here.


Zob (hey, I've been wrong before... but I've also been very, very right)

[William A. Rendfeld]

You're not the first to theorize that a return to beasts was on the horizon. If true, then I look forward to it.

[Gustavo Wombat]

We have been getting a smattering of beasts -- Alpha Trion, Weirdwolf, and
Skullcruncher so far in Titans Return, for instance, and the Insecticons --
so they aren't completely ignoring them, but Hasbro doesn't seem to be
willing to commit to them. I think they are watching the sales and finding
that they don't sell as well.

TF:Prime got its Predacons, and some beasts are popping up in PrimeRID.

The Dinobots are conspicuously absent from the Generations line, but we got
a full set in the Age of Extinction line -- and we usually get different
characters in the different lines (at least for secondary characters), so
they are probably just busy.

I don't think we're going to get a sudden return to beasts. I think we will
get what we have almost always gotten -- a small smattering of beasts.

Combined Wars was a bit special in having none -- the toys were released in
waves of combiner limbs, and I don't think Hasbro was willing to have a
wave or two of only beasts.

[MWG]

I think we are going to be seeing Titan/Headmasters and CW style combiners for quite a while, even beyond the official "end" of Titans Return. They invested a lot of money into perfecting these two gimmicks, they will be around for a while, maybe even turning up in the movie or cartoon toylines? I do think the "missing" headmaster characters (like Nightbeat and the other 1988 characters, maybe the Horrorcons) could be being held in reserve until they have a window to release Scorponok with them. As for the future of the Titanmaster gimmick itself, I'd like to see most larger figures interact with them like the current legends class does: they interact with the little guys (like being able to ride in Wheelie or Kickback's cockpits, or have little pegs they can stand on) but the gimmick wouldn't dominate the toys like it does now. The TR legends class figures are all capable of being good toys on their own and the headmaster gimmick is just a bonus for them.

As for what the next phase of Generations will focus on, who knows? I'd love to see Targetmasters and Powermasters come back properly. I get the feeling Pretenders would have to be too big and complex and also too expensive to be plausible at retail.

As for Beast Wars characters, we could see some but I doubt they would dominate the line. The Dinobots and beast combiners are overdue. Dinobots are still a VERY popular subgroup, why we haven't seen more Classics updates of them is beyond me...

[Zobovor]

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 4:56:29 PM UTC-6, MWG wrote:

> I'd like to see most larger figures interact with them like the current
> legends class does: they interact with the little guys (like being able to
> ride in Wheelie or Kickback's cockpits, or have little pegs they can stand
> on) but the gimmick wouldn't dominate the toys like it does now.

Agreed. It would be easy to include the mini-pegs for the mini-figures to stand on for a proposed future toy line, similar to the way a lot of toys were being designed to accommodate c-clip weapons for a while there. (I didn't really appreciate this gimmick very much since I bought so few toys with c-clip weapons.)

> As for what the next phase of Generations will focus on, who knows? I'd love
> to see Targetmasters and Powermasters come back properly.

The great thing about Targetmasters is that it requires almost no extra engineering the way Headmasters do. As long as you have a place to mount the weapon in vehicle mode, you're golden. I would love to see them play mix-and-match with the 1987 characters and earlier-generation characters, so we'd get a proper Targetmaster version of Crosshairs, Misfire, etc. but also maybe Targetmaster versions of Optimus Prime, Hound, Prowl, etc. just for fun.

> I get the feeling Pretenders would have to be too big and complex and also
> too expensive to be plausible at retail.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't want to just get outer shells that can't move, like we did in 1988-89. I think the best way to do it is to make the back of the outer shell hollow, like the Monster Pretenders, or conversely have just the outer shell's torso open up. That frees up the arms and legs and allows the kind of articulation I'd want to see. Then, the only real stipulation for the inner robots would be that they would need to be able to fold up into a compact square shape to fit into the back of the shell.

The inner robots would be pretty small, so in some ways this would be like the Cyberverse toy line all over again.

> Dinobots are still a VERY popular subgroup, why we haven't seen more Classics
> updates of them is beyond me...

I get that they probably didn't want to do Classics-style versions of them too close to Age of Extinction, since they wouldn't want to have movie versions and non-movie versions of the Dinobots on the shelves at the exact same time. There's no reason not to do it now, though. That's why I think Hasbro is planning something special for them.


Zob (fingers crossed)

[Ramen Junkie]

On 10/20/2016 7:57 PM, Zobovor wrote:

> So, what would a good name for this proposed toy line be? Something that would follow in the footsteps of Combiner Wars and Titans Return (whose working name was Titan Wars)? Why, what else could it possibly be?
>
> Let it be called... BEAST WARS!
>
> Naturally, such a toy line would also open the door for more Generations-style updates for the original Beast Wars characters. In a world where Masterpiece versions of Optimus Primal and Cheetor are generating so much fan excitement, it seems the time has finally come to cater to the now-adult collectors who were kids when Beast Wars originally aired. 2016 marks the 20th anniversary of its introduction. I've observed that 1980's nostalgia is falling out of fashion in favor of 1990's nostalgia (which has its perks; I actually found a Darkwing Duck T-shirt at Kohl's the other day). Hasbro's been trying, and failing, for years to reintroduce Beast Wars characters and I think now the time is finally here.
>
>
> Zob (hey, I've been wrong before... but I've also been very, very right)
>

Here is my only hope, if there's any actual Beast Wars updates.

Can we please see some Transmetals? I really like the Transmetals more
than the "original" organic versions.

--
Ramen Junkie

Supreme Dictator for Life, alt.games.final-fantasy

[Gustavo Wombat]

Ramen Junkie <ra...@lamezoid.com> wrote:
> On 10/20/2016 7:57 PM, Zobovor wrote:
>
>> So, what would a good name for this proposed toy line be? Something
>> that would follow in the footsteps of Combiner Wars and Titans Return
>> (whose working name was Titan Wars)? Why, what else could it possibly be?
>>
>> Let it be called... BEAST WARS!

> is my only hope, if there's any actual Beast Wars updates.
>
> Can we please see some Transmetals? I really like the Transmetals more
> than the "original" organic versions.
>

I think they might run into the problem that the revisited toys are in no
way better than the originals.

I wish they would just reissue them, replacing the vacuum metalized parts
with metallic paint. And fix the problems in Megatron by avoiding metal
flake plastic.

--
I wish I was a mole in the ground.

[Zobovor]

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 1:58:06 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> I think they might run into the problem that the revisited toys are in no
> way better than the originals.

The problems tend to come when they attempt a wholesale redesign of the old toys in an attempt to be more accurate to the CGI models. Stuff like what they did to Cheetor and Dinobot were ambitious, but both toys ended up being epic failures (for different reasons than each other).

On the other hand, Rhinox and Rattrap ended up being really, really good. I think they could do amazing things with Blackarachnia, Terrorsaur, Megatron, etc. if they really tried.

> I wish they would just reissue them, replacing the vacuum metalized parts
> with metallic paint. And fix the problems in Megatron by avoiding metal
> flake plastic.

I still think there was something wrong with the method they used to vac-metal those toys. I have C-3PO and R2-D2 toys that are 20 years older than the Transmetals (and assorted shiny TMNT toys that are 10 years older than the Transmetals) that have never started flaking. With that said, perhaps metallic paint would be better.

I don't want to see just straight reissues of the Transmetals toys, though. Maybe they could take the same basic engineering and do an overhaul to the sculpts and color schemes, so they could give us CGI-accurate faces and such. Like, Transmetal Cheetor has this ugly grimace. I hate that. Maybe modify Transmetal Rattrap so his backpack can swing around upside-down like it does in the show. Give Megatron a mold tweak with a stronger waist connection (or maybe a snap-together joint so it will just pop off before it ever actually breaks).

Even this would feel wrong somehow in a Generations toy line, though. It would feel like cheating. The equivalent of reissuing the G1 toys but adding some new elbow and knee joints.


Zob (which I would probably buy, mind you, but that's neither here nor there)

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:11:29 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 1:58:06 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
> > I think they might run into the problem that the revisited toys are in no
> > way better than the originals.
>
> The problems tend to come when they attempt a wholesale redesign of the old toys in an attempt to be more accurate to the CGI models. Stuff like what they did to Cheetor and Dinobot were ambitious, but both toys ended up being epic failures (for different reasons than each other).
>
> On the other hand, Rhinox and Rattrap ended up being really, really good. I think they could do amazing things with Blackarachnia, Terrorsaur, Megatron, etc. if they really tried.

I'll grant you Rhinox, but I didn't really like Rattrap. Too fiddly, and too much panel massage. Or maybe I just never learned to transform him right.

I am very curious about the Masterpiece Beasts (Masterbeasts?) though.

> > I wish they would just reissue them, replacing the vacuum metalized parts
> > with metallic paint. And fix the problems in Megatron by avoiding metal
> > flake plastic.
>
> I still think there was something wrong with the method they used to vac-metal those toys. I have C-3PO and R2-D2 toys that are 20 years older than the Transmetals (and assorted shiny TMNT toys that are 10 years older than the Transmetals) that have never started flaking. With that said, perhaps metallic paint would be better.

I think there is something about colors other than silver and gold -- maybe there are two layers bonded to each other that expand and contract differently with temperature? Not sure why gold tone wouldn't be affected though, since I know I had a C-3PO with the gold rubbing off and the silver showing underneath.

> I don't want to see just straight reissues of the Transmetals toys, though. Maybe they could take the same basic engineering and do an overhaul to the sculpts and color schemes, so they could give us CGI-accurate faces and such. Like, Transmetal Cheetor has this ugly grimace. I hate that. Maybe modify Transmetal Rattrap so his backpack can swing around upside-down like it does in the show.

Cheetor's grimace is so BW. How could you want to get rid of that? He is straining to use the litter box, and of course it would affect his robot mode -- the beast mode is all shiny and mechanical, and the robot mode has fur.

Beyond modest head sculpt issues, though, they would probably just want to make an entirely new mold -- one that is smaller and fits in the current budgets. And, then, all bets are off on whether they can match the quality of one of the best toylines in Transformers history.

> Give Megatron a mold tweak with a stronger waist connection (or maybe a snap-together joint so it will just pop off before it ever actually breaks).

Didn't the Japanese version improve that? And Armada Predacon?

> Even this would feel wrong somehow in a Generations toy line, though. It would feel like cheating. The equivalent of reissuing the G1 toys but adding some new elbow and knee joints.

Generations came from Universe, and Universe was just recycled molds, so it would kind of be going back to the source.

But, I expect they would have to be Platinum Editions or something.

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:00:43 AM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> I'll grant you Rhinox, but I didn't really like Rattrap. Too fiddly, and too
> much panel massage. Or maybe I just never learned to transform him right.

It's difficult to stuff his robot arms and legs in there correctly. The execution of the toy is extraordinary, though. He really does look a lot like the CGI character, and that's important.

> I think there is something about colors other than silver and gold -- maybe
> there are two layers bonded to each other that expand and contract
> differently with temperature? Not sure why gold tone wouldn't be affected
> though, since I know I had a C-3PO with the gold rubbing off and the silver
> showing underneath.

Well, the bottom layer is just a thin layer of metal that's been electrochemically bonded to the plastic. If we get a toy with silver shiny parts, that's all they do. They can also apply a colored laquer over top of the metalized parts, and that's how we get vac-metal gold, vac-metal purple, etc.

Temperature variations might be the key, since my Beast Wars toys were on display in a temperature-controlled room for years, and it wasn't until I put them in a box and stuck them in storage that I started having issues with my Transmetals.

I've had some C-3PO toys where the gold has worn off, but that's not the same as the entire coating of lacquer-and-metal-plating just flaking off in chunks. There is probably some Hasbro chemist who knows exactly why it happened to the Transmetals. Too much mold-release oil on the toys? Didn't spend enough time in the electrochemical bath? Too much surface area?

> Didn't the Japanese version improve that? And Armada Predacon?

I don't have any experience with the Japanese toy, and I never disassembled Armada Predacon to check. My Transmetal Megatron is also broken at the shoulder joints, but I think that's just the result of the bad sparkly plastic.

> I expect they would have to be Platinum Editions or something.

I'd be okay with that. Really, it's the 20th anniversary of Beast Wars, the toy line that really brought Transformers back from near-oblivion. Without it, we'd all be sitting here wondering what G2 would have been line if they'd tried to keep it going for a couple more years. You would think that Hasbro or Takara would be planning SOMETHING to commemorate it.


Zob (besides the aforementioned Masterbeasts)