How good is good enough?

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

So for over ten years now, we've been getting the Generations line,and it's gotten even better with Combiner Wars, Titans Return, and now Power of the Primes. For the most part they are re-imaginings of the G1 characters using modern technology.

But there are many many differences.

Headmasters are now Titan Masters, there are no more stat-readouts on their chests.

I hear complaints on some of the figures. To me they are great updates, but all I hear are complaints. TR Blurr worked out really well, but everyone tells me his colors are bad. Where conversely, people liked Scourge but I couldn't stand the feet flaps flapping about loosely in vehicle mode.

What is good enough? People greatly disliked Classics Astrotrain, because it was a bullet train, and the train nose was on the shuttle wings. But TR Astrotrain doesn't look like a shuttle or a train, and people seem to like it.

I've heard nothing but complaints on all versions of Galvatron, but TR Galvatron aside from the mask was awesome, even with a jet mode.

People tell me they want Springer and Sandstorm, but their Generations versions are some of my favorite Generations toys.

TR Krok is just a recolor of Skullcruncher, and G1 Krok had no alt mode, but the new Krok is widely accepted even though it' not true to the G1. Not being true to G1 is probably the most common complaint I hear about things, yet Krok is great because he's not accurate?

CW and TR brought in new characters, or new versions of characters that didn't have a G1 toy, such as A3 and Sentinel Prime. While these toys had lukewarm reception, others, like Alpha Bravo, Rook, and Offroad seemed to be outright rejected by serious fans.

Will the legends scale Pretenders be good enough? They look tiny and cute, but will we settle for that? We got Generations Thunderwing, Skullgrin, Metalhawk, and Bludgeon, but were those acceptable being that they weren't pretenders? Given a choice between tiny pretender or full size with no pretender ability, which is more acceptable? Or is neither acceptable and we need full shells?

[New and Improved Zobovor]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 11:26:37 PM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> Headmasters are now Titan Masters, there are no more stat-readouts on their
> chests.

I missed the chest tumblers at first, but I can understand why they went away. That's a huge chunk of real estate inside a toy, and it would have severely limited the kinds of transformations they would be able to do. Also, the tumblers were a toyetic feature, not a fiction-driven feature, so ultimately I was okay with them going away.

> I hear complaints on some of the figures. To me they are great updates, but
> all I hear are complaints. TR Blurr worked out really well, but everyone
> tells me his colors are bad. Where conversely, people liked Scourge but I
> couldn't stand the feet flaps flapping about loosely in vehicle mode.

Well, the people complaining are always going to be the most vocal. The design of Blurr is great, but he's just so plain-looking. He's blue from head-to-toe. No color contrast. I probably wouldn't have complained about him so much if Takara hadn't come along and shown us how amazing the toy could actually look.

> What is good enough? People greatly disliked Classics Astrotrain, because it
> was a bullet train, and the train nose was on the shuttle wings. But TR
> Astrotrain doesn't look like a shuttle or a train, and people seem to like it.

Well, neither Astrotrain is very true to the original toy. I think the best update would be a biggification of the G1 toy with better proportions and ball joints, honestly.

Of the two toys, I like Titans Return Astrotrain better. He's not a slam-dunk success, but he's acceptable.

> I've heard nothing but complaints on all versions of Galvatron, but TR
> Galvatron aside from the mask was awesome, even with a jet mode.

After finally getting around to fixing the mask, I've become really enamored with the Titans Return Galvatron toy in a way that I wasn't when I first got it. Hasbro needs to reissue it at some point without the Headmaster feature, the way it was originally designed.

> People tell me they want Springer and Sandstorm, but their Generations
> versions are some of my favorite Generations toys.

Springer looks a lot like a third-party attempt at the character. He's more of a Studio Ox style redesign than an attempt at capturing the G1 look. Me, I dislike how tall and lanky his robot mode is. I think a thicker, beefier Springer would be the way to go next time.

> TR Krok is just a recolor of Skullcruncher, and G1 Krok had no alt mode, but
> the new Krok is widely accepted even though it' not true to the G1. Not being
> true to G1 is probably the most common complaint I hear about things, yet
> Krok is great because he's not accurate?

So, you're seeing a discrepancy. If people want toys to be true to G1, which is why they dislike Astrotrain and Springer, then why do they love Krok so much, who is also a departure from G1?

I can't explain why I like Krok so much. Maybe it's because I love Action Masters. Maybe it's because being an alligator just suits the character so well. Maybe it's because the color mapping still evokes the character so strongly. I just don't know.

I think that I tend to be the most accepting of the new toys that keep the parts of the G1 toys that I like, and ditch the parts that I don't like. I would never insist that a new toy of Backstreet have legs that are permanently fused together. I don't want to get an update of Runamuck that can't move his arms. There are the cool elements of G1 and the not-so-cool elements. Granted, these sorts of things are subjective and difficult to define.

So, yeah, Blurr should be blue, but he should be multiple shades of blue. Yes, Springer should turn into both a car and a helicopter, but he should also look like a bodybuilder. Sure, Astrotrain needs to turn into a spaceship and a train, but the less he looks like a NASA Space Shuttle, the less I like him.

> CW and TR brought in new characters, or new versions of characters that
> didn't have a G1 toy, such as A3 and Sentinel Prime. While these toys had
> lukewarm reception, others, like Alpha Bravo, Rook, and Offroad seemed to be
> outright rejected by serious fans.

The thing about Alpha Bravo and Offroad, in particular, is that HASBRO WAS ALREADY PLANNING ON GIVING US SLINGSHOT AND WILDRIDER. Based on the date codes of the toys in question, the true and correct Aerialbot and Stunticon teams were already in the works. The numbers don't lie. The only reason these extra toys existed was to trick us into thinking that we weren't getting the full teams, and that there would be no way to form Superion or Menasor without these new miscreant upstart interlopers. For me, that's the biggest sticking point. It was a deception on Hasbro's part.

> Will the legends scale Pretenders be good enough? They look tiny and cute,
> but will we settle for that? We got Generations Thunderwing, Skullgrin,
> Metalhawk, and Bludgeon, but were those acceptable being that they weren't
> pretenders? Given a choice between tiny pretender or full size with no
> pretender ability, which is more acceptable? Or is neither acceptable and we
> need full shells?

These are all great questions. These are the questions we all need to be asking.

I wonder if a full line of Pretenders would really be able to support the toy line. They're all fairly homogenous. The gimmick is pretty much the same every time, and due to the way the 1988 robot modes were designed, the robot-to-vehicle transformation was really limited, and the vehicle designs were so abstract. Pretty much all of them were just robots with their legs folded up. The only thing really clearly distinguishing them was the design of their Pretender shells.

There's also the fact that the 1989 Pretenders were a total redo of the 1988 Pretender concept, with smaller toys and a totally different approach to the transformations. It would be hard to reconcile both styles of Pretenders into a single, unified design philosophy, and that's to say nothing of the Pretender Beasts, Pretender Vehicles, Mega Pretenders, Ultra Pretenders, or Pretender Monsters.

I would have preferred fully functional Pretender shells. But, I also recognize that it's a weird gimmick and a departure from what we usually expect from Transformers. There are a lot of Pretender characters in existence, so maybe the smaller size is Hasbro's attempt to make them collectible and get to as many of them as possible. If large-scale Pretenders weren't a big hit, then they would have to abandon the concept and we'd only get a handful of them.

For the record, I thought Generations Thunderwing was great, but I disliked Skullgrin and Bludgeon. Sticking the face of the outer shell on a toy of the inner robot just isn't the answer.

I originally disliked the idea of so many characters in Titans Return being Headmasters, but I eventually warmed up to it and now it's, like, my favorite Transformers toy line ever. The idea of tiny Pretenders rubs me the wrong way, but I'm willing to give it a shot.


Zob (honestly, I'm pretty shocked that we're getting any Pretender do-overs at all)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 1:27:00 AM UTC-6, New and Improved Zobovor wrote:
> On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 11:26:37 PM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
>
> > Headmasters are now Titan Masters, there are no more stat-readouts on their
> > chests.
>
> I missed the chest tumblers at first, but I can understand why they went away. That's a huge chunk of real estate inside a toy, and it would have severely limited the kinds of transformations they would be able to do. Also, the tumblers were a toyetic feature, not a fiction-driven feature, so ultimately I was okay with them going away.
>
> > I hear complaints on some of the figures. To me they are great updates, but
> > all I hear are complaints. TR Blurr worked out really well, but everyone
> > tells me his colors are bad. Where conversely, people liked Scourge but I
> > couldn't stand the feet flaps flapping about loosely in vehicle mode.
>
> Well, the people complaining are always going to be the most vocal. The design of Blurr is great, but he's just so plain-looking. He's blue from head-to-toe. No color contrast. I probably wouldn't have complained about him so much if Takara hadn't come along and shown us how amazing the toy could actually look.
>
> > What is good enough? People greatly disliked Classics Astrotrain, because it
> > was a bullet train, and the train nose was on the shuttle wings. But TR
> > Astrotrain doesn't look like a shuttle or a train, and people seem to like it.
>
> Well, neither Astrotrain is very true to the original toy. I think the best update would be a biggification of the G1 toy with better proportions and ball joints, honestly.
>
> Of the two toys, I like Titans Return Astrotrain better. He's not a slam-dunk success, but he's acceptable.
>
> > I've heard nothing but complaints on all versions of Galvatron, but TR
> > Galvatron aside from the mask was awesome, even with a jet mode.
>
> After finally getting around to fixing the mask, I've become really enamored with the Titans Return Galvatron toy in a way that I wasn't when I first got it. Hasbro needs to reissue it at some point without the Headmaster feature, the way it was originally designed.
>

What fix do you like?

> > People tell me they want Springer and Sandstorm, but their Generations
> > versions are some of my favorite Generations toys.
>
> Springer looks a lot like a third-party attempt at the character. He's more of a Studio Ox style redesign than an attempt at capturing the G1 look. Me, I dislike how tall and lanky his robot mode is. I think a thicker, beefier Springer would be the way to go next time.
>

I never saw Springer as a bodybuilder type. Yes he was S3's version of the all-star jock, but I never saw him as buff.

I know Sandstorm being a VTOL was a variant, but I liked it quite well too.

The funny part is I can easily see both of the Generations toys retooled to be Headmasters with not too much work.

> > TR Krok is just a recolor of Skullcruncher, and G1 Krok had no alt mode, but
> > the new Krok is widely accepted even though it' not true to the G1. Not being
> > true to G1 is probably the most common complaint I hear about things, yet
> > Krok is great because he's not accurate?
>
> So, you're seeing a discrepancy. If people want toys to be true to G1, which is why they dislike Astrotrain and Springer, then why do they love Krok so much, who is also a departure from G1?
>
> I can't explain why I like Krok so much. Maybe it's because I love Action Masters. Maybe it's because being an alligator just suits the character so well. Maybe it's because the color mapping still evokes the character so strongly. I just don't know.
>

See this confuses me. People don't like a G1 departure, but then love a G1 departure. I'm not saying Krok is terrible, but I don't understand when certain things that aren't close to G1 are acceptable but other things that are even closer to G1 accurate are not.

> I think that I tend to be the most accepting of the new toys that keep the parts of the G1 toys that I like, and ditch the parts that I don't like. I would never insist that a new toy of Backstreet have legs that are permanently fused together. I don't want to get an update of Runamuck that can't move his arms. There are the cool elements of G1 and the not-so-cool elements. Granted, these sorts of things are subjective and difficult to define.
>
> So, yeah, Blurr should be blue, but he should be multiple shades of blue. Yes, Springer should turn into both a car and a helicopter, but he should also look like a bodybuilder. Sure, Astrotrain needs to turn into a spaceship and a train, but the less he looks like a NASA Space Shuttle, the less I like him.
>

See, you just reversed what you said earlier. You said you liked the TR, found it more acceptable, and then here said the version that comes closest to a NASA shuttle is the best. Classics Astrotrain had a NASA inspired nose, wings, tail, and rear thrusters, where TR Astrotrain looks absolutely nothing like a NASA anything. That's what I don't get. Everyone asks for realistic vehicle modes, like the G1 had, and then criticize when we get close, but are more accepting of something much less accurate.

> > CW and TR brought in new characters, or new versions of characters that
> > didn't have a G1 toy, such as A3 and Sentinel Prime. While these toys had
> > lukewarm reception, others, like Alpha Bravo, Rook, and Offroad seemed to be
> > outright rejected by serious fans.
>
> The thing about Alpha Bravo and Offroad, in particular, is that HASBRO WAS ALREADY PLANNING ON GIVING US SLINGSHOT AND WILDRIDER. Based on the date codes of the toys in question, the true and correct Aerialbot and Stunticon teams were already in the works. The numbers don't lie. The only reason these extra toys existed was to trick us into thinking that we weren't getting the full teams, and that there would be no way to form Superion or Menasor without these new miscreant upstart interlopers. For me, that's the biggest sticking point. It was a deception on Hasbro's part.
>

I will admit that I was disappointed that Slingshot, Groove, and Wildrider being mail-order only kind of sucked, but Slingshot and Fireflight used the same mold which sucked even more. We never got the right jet version of Fireflight.

> > Will the legends scale Pretenders be good enough? They look tiny and cute,
> > but will we settle for that? We got Generations Thunderwing, Skullgrin,
> > Metalhawk, and Bludgeon, but were those acceptable being that they weren't
> > pretenders? Given a choice between tiny pretender or full size with no
> > pretender ability, which is more acceptable? Or is neither acceptable and we
> > need full shells?
>
> These are all great questions. These are the questions we all need to be asking.
>
> I wonder if a full line of Pretenders would really be able to support the toy line. They're all fairly homogenous. The gimmick is pretty much the same every time, and due to the way the 1988 robot modes were designed, the robot-to-vehicle transformation was really limited, and the vehicle designs were so abstract. Pretty much all of them were just robots with their legs folded up. The only thing really clearly distinguishing them was the design of their Pretender shells.
>

I hear a lot that the pretenders didn't look like vehicles, but they're Cybertronian vehicles. The G1 Fastlane looked like a robot with his arms folded in front, there were a number of G1 toys besides pretenders that looked like a folded robot. But their vehicles weren't their disguise, their shells were the disguise, so the vehicles didn't have to convince outsiders that they weren't Cybertronians.

> There's also the fact that the 1989 Pretenders were a total redo of the 1988 Pretender concept, with smaller toys and a totally different approach to the transformations. It would be hard to reconcile both styles of Pretenders into a single, unified design philosophy, and that's to say nothing of the Pretender Beasts, Pretender Vehicles, Mega Pretenders, Ultra Pretenders, or Pretender Monsters.
>
> I would have preferred fully functional Pretender shells. But, I also recognize that it's a weird gimmick and a departure from what we usually expect from Transformers. There are a lot of Pretender characters in existence, so maybe the smaller size is Hasbro's attempt to make them collectible and get to as many of them as possible. If large-scale Pretenders weren't a big hit, then they would have to abandon the concept and we'd only get a handful of them.
>
> For the record, I thought Generations Thunderwing was great, but I disliked Skullgrin and Bludgeon. Sticking the face of the outer shell on a toy of the inner robot just isn't the answer.
>
> I originally disliked the idea of so many characters in Titans Return being Headmasters, but I eventually warmed up to it and now it's, like, my favorite Transformers toy line ever. The idea of tiny Pretenders rubs me the wrong way, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
>

So far I'm going to get Submarauder and Skullgrin, but I hope we get Iguanus and Finback. The problem is we have too many pretenders for the Primes, and there were an even more limited number of dark Primes.

[New and Improved Zobovor]

On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 7:52:02 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> What fix do you like?

I eliminated the huge, unsightly gap between his helmet and his face.

> > > People tell me they want Springer and Sandstorm, but their Generations
> > > versions are some of my favorite Generations toys.

> See this confuses me. People don't like a G1 departure, but then love a G1
> departure. I'm not saying Krok is terrible, but I don't understand when
> certain things that aren't close to G1 are acceptable but other things that
> are even closer to G1 accurate are not.

Any toy of an Action Masters character that can actually transform is going to be a departure. And, really, we can't say with certainty what the hypothetical pre-1990 Krok could change into. For Action Masters, they got rid of the fire truck ladder on Inferno's back and Starscream's wings and Grimlock's dinosaur head and upper body halves. Maybe the pre-Action Master version of Krok had a big alligator head on his back and alligator tail halves on his legs. Who knows?

Would you prefer to see a series of Titans Return Action Masters who are Headmasters but can't transform into anything?

> See, you just reversed what you said earlier. You said you liked the TR,
> found it more acceptable, and then here said the version that comes closest
> to a NASA shuttle is the best.

I suspect that if you go looking for contradictions, you're going to find them. Humans are inherently contradictory creatures.

For me, the toys fall on a spectrum. On the very far side, there are toys that are so unappealing and such horrible representations of the characters that I would never dream of owning them. A lot of toys fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum... they're good in ways, not-so-good in other ways, and I want to own them despite their flaws. On the opposite end of the spectrum are toys that are basically perfect and cannot be improved upon in any way. You don't see too many of these. They're rare, but they do exist.

Regarding Astrotrain, specifically: The G1 toy has its flaws (tiny head, tiny arms, tiny upper legs, little to no articulation) but its shuttle mode and train mode are great, and it looks the most like the Sunbow cartoon character. The Classics toy has a better-proportioned robot mode, but the colors are all wrong, the bullet train mode is a huge departure from the original steam locomotive, and the shuttle mode has those obnoxious front halves of the train mode on the wings (which, for me, is a huge flaw in the toy's design). Titans Return Astrotrain is big and impressive, has a better color scheme, and while the vehicle forms aren't exactly what I would want to see, at least the spaceship mode doesn't have train pieces on the wings.

Very few toys are ever going to be "G1 with ball joints," which was how Hasbro was describing the new Autobot Clones. There is always going to be a departure from the original look, to some degree. Maybe Classics Astrotrain would have been my favorite if it were the right colors. I don't know. Without conducting a detailed analysis and measuring out the pros and cons, I can just tell you my gut feeling about whether I like a toy or not.

> But their vehicles weren't their disguise, their shells were the disguise, so
> the vehicles didn't have to convince outsiders that they weren't
> Cybertronians.

Okay, so that's an in-fiction justification, and it makes sense. I was really speaking towards the marketability of folded-up robots in today's marketplace. Most of the Titans Return toys turned into something that was clearly identifiable as a vehicle or recognizable creature... even if it was a fantasy vehicle like Topspin or Hardhead. If new Pretenders were faithful to the designs of the old toys, then every one of them would have stilts for legs, and every one of them would transform by tucking their feet behind their heads. If Hasbro effected a wholesale redesign of the characters, then we would all cry foul because Landmine no longer looked like Landmine, Skullgrin no longer looked like Skullgrin, etc.

> So far I'm going to get Submarauder and Skullgrin, but I hope we get Iguanus
> and Finback. The problem is we have too many pretenders for the Primes, and
> there were an even more limited number of dark Primes.

If they're only releasing Pretenders based on the number of Prime characters in existence, then they're going to run into a problem really soon. I'm sure they could just invent some in-universe justification in order to release more toys. Shattered Glass Primes, perhaps, or maybe each Prime can eventually upgrade to a different, more powerful Decoy suit. Shrug.


Zob (PRETEEEEEEENDERS hide the TRANSFOOOOOORMERS inside)

[Travoltron]

I think Hasbro is going to want synergy with Tomy, so I'd imagine the
seven Pretenders featured in MasterForce will get priority. The eighth
Pretender on that show, Grand, is being released by Tomy in Japan with
Grand Maximus.

I don't think the Pretenders featured in Victory would fit this new line
very well. Those would be Black Shadow (Thunderwing), Blue Bacchus
(Crossblades), and Dinoking (Monstructor).

Bludgeon would probably be the only US-exclusive Pretender iconic enough
to return. But you never know.

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 12:27:03 PM UTC-6, New and Improved Zobovor wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 7:52:02 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
>
> > What fix do you like?
>
> I eliminated the huge, unsightly gap between his helmet and his face.
>

Did you get 3rd party head? Did you cut the msk off and glue to the head? did you just shave the mask down thinner?

>
> > > > People tell me they want Springer and Sandstorm, but their Generations
> > > > versions are some of my favorite Generations toys.
>
> > See this confuses me. People don't like a G1 departure, but then love a G1
> > departure. I'm not saying Krok is terrible, but I don't understand when
> > certain things that aren't close to G1 are acceptable but other things that
> > are even closer to G1 accurate are not.
>
> Any toy of an Action Masters character that can actually transform is going to be a departure. And, really, we can't say with certainty what the hypothetical pre-1990 Krok could change into. For Action Masters, they got rid of the fire truck ladder on Inferno's back and Starscream's wings and Grimlock's dinosaur head and upper body halves. Maybe the pre-Action Master version of Krok had a big alligator head on his back and alligator tail halves on his legs. Who knows?
>
> Would you prefer to see a series of Titans Return Action Masters who are Headmasters but can't transform into anything?
>

I'm the complete wrong person to ask. I would hate hate hate it, but I hated Actionmasters the first time around too. Many people liked Actionmasters. Are you (as an Actionmaster fan) saying that it's now unacceptable to release Actionmasters that can't transform, but it was acceptable for G1 to do it? (This is just curiosity, not trying to sound like an asshole)

> > See, you just reversed what you said earlier. You said you liked the TR,
> > found it more acceptable, and then here said the version that comes closest
> > to a NASA shuttle is the best.
>
> I suspect that if you go looking for contradictions, you're going to find them. Humans are inherently contradictory creatures.
>
> For me, the toys fall on a spectrum. On the very far side, there are toys that are so unappealing and such horrible representations of the characters that I would never dream of owning them. A lot of toys fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum... they're good in ways, not-so-good in other ways, and I want to own them despite their flaws. On the opposite end of the spectrum are toys that are basically perfect and cannot be improved upon in any way. You don't see too many of these. They're rare, but they do exist.
>
> Regarding Astrotrain, specifically: The G1 toy has its flaws (tiny head, tiny arms, tiny upper legs, little to no articulation) but its shuttle mode and train mode are great, and it looks the most like the Sunbow cartoon character. The Classics toy has a better-proportioned robot mode, but the colors are all wrong, the bullet train mode is a huge departure from the original steam locomotive, and the shuttle mode has those obnoxious front halves of the train mode on the wings (which, for me, is a huge flaw in the toy's design). Titans Return Astrotrain is big and impressive, has a better color scheme, and while the vehicle forms aren't exactly what I would want to see, at least the spaceship mode doesn't have train pieces on the wings.
>

So, the wings aren't the right shape, or connected to the fuselage in the right place, but at least the train kibble is under the wings instead of aerodynamically on top of the wings trying to pretend to be fuel tanks.

Seriously, they do nothing well with the TR robot arms in either alt mode.

> Very few toys are ever going to be "G1 with ball joints," which was how Hasbro was describing the new Autobot Clones. There is always going to be a departure from the original look, to some degree. Maybe Classics Astrotrain would have been my favorite if it were the right colors. I don't know. Without conducting a detailed analysis and measuring out the pros and cons, I can just tell you my gut feeling about whether I like a toy or not.
>
> > But their vehicles weren't their disguise, their shells were the disguise, so
> > the vehicles didn't have to convince outsiders that they weren't
> > Cybertronians.
>
> Okay, so that's an in-fiction justification, and it makes sense. I was really speaking towards the marketability of folded-up robots in today's marketplace. Most of the Titans Return toys turned into something that was clearly identifiable as a vehicle or recognizable creature... even if it was a fantasy vehicle like Topspin or Hardhead. If new Pretenders were faithful to the designs of the old toys, then every one of them would have stilts for legs, and every one of them would transform by tucking their feet behind their heads. If Hasbro effected a wholesale redesign of the characters, then we would all cry foul because Landmine no longer looked like Landmine, Skullgrin no longer looked like Skullgrin, etc.
>

My only problem with Generations Skullgrin is that he was a much better Straxus, and he was Straxus first. Straxus/Darkmount was great.

But otherwise we seem to agree there is no winning scenario here.

> > So far I'm going to get Submarauder and Skullgrin, but I hope we get Iguanus
> > and Finback. The problem is we have too many pretenders for the Primes, and
> > there were an even more limited number of dark Primes.
>
> If they're only releasing Pretenders based on the number of Prime characters in existence, then they're going to run into a problem really soon. I'm sure they could just invent some in-universe justification in order to release more toys. Shattered Glass Primes, perhaps, or maybe each Prime can eventually upgrade to a different, more powerful Decoy suit. Shrug.
>

Maybe the rest of the suits can be released with Titan Masters inside.

Or we can get bigger suits with Seacons inside, that we can remold for monstercons. That would be crazy, but workable crazy.

>
> Zob (PRETEEEEEEENDERS hide the TRANSFOOOOOORMERS inside)

PotP as revealed so far seems very light for a toyline. I hope they reveal more. This is one time I wouldn't mind a Starscream remolded into a Jetfire. I might buy combiner torso Jetfire.

[New and Improved Zobovor]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 7:28:26 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> Did you get 3rd party head? Did you cut the mask off and glue to the head?

I'll have to dig him back out of the box and take some pictures.

> Are you (as an Actionmaster fan) saying that it's now unacceptable to release
> Actionmasters that can't transform, but it was acceptable for G1 to do it?
> (This is just curiosity, not trying to sound like an asshole)

I get what they were trying to do. It was an attempt to move Transformers into the action figure market, to allow them to interact with vehicles and playsets. It may have been an attempt to compete directly with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which was hugely popular and had been going strong for a couple of years. Also, with no media support, the toy line really needed a shot in the arm. Ressurecting a lot of familiar faces was a great way to counter the endless horde of nameless, faceless Micromasters with no personalities. Every single Action Masters toy came with *something* that transformed; it just wasn't the main robot character who did. And, really, a lot of the toys, especially the new 1990 characters, looked really cool.

Now? Well, the toy line isn't in imminent danger of dying, so I don't think any kind of desperate, last-gasp measures are called for. They need to change it up and reinvent the brand every couple of years to keep it fresh, sure, but I don't think the market would tolerate non-transformable Transformers now. It would create too much brand confusion. We had the Heroes of Cybertron figurines, but those were a fringe product and not represented as the main toy line. Also, there's no real reason to do it now. Action Masters were the most highly articulated versions of the characters up to that point, but now that kind of articulation is not only the norm, but is easily surpassed (even Action Masters didn't have elbow joints or swiveling waists).

Also, if you look at it from an in-universe perspective, Nucleon was kind of a mistake. It was a new power source, and the loss of transformation powers was an unexpected side effect. You can't expect every toy version of Krok from now until eternity to be unable to transform. That was just one stage in his career. It's memorable to us because it was the first time we met him, but we can't expect him to be stuck in robot mode forever any more than we would expect the same, or want it, of Grimlock and Jazz and Starscream.

> So, the wings aren't the right shape, or connected to the fuselage in the
> right place, but at least the train kibble is under the wings instead of
> aerodynamically on top of the wings trying to pretend to be fuel tanks.

Maybe if the fuel tanks didn't have windows on them? And look exactly like the front end of a bullet train? Shrug.

> Or we can get bigger suits with Seacons inside, that we can remold for
> monstercons. That would be crazy, but workable crazy.

Pretender Seacons instead of Targetmaster Seacons? Sure, why not?

> PotP as revealed so far seems very light for a toyline. I hope they reveal
> more. This is one time I wouldn't mind a Starscream remolded into a Jetfire.
> I might buy combiner torso Jetfire.

I'm still convinced that Starscream is a predeco. The "real" version of that toy is coming later. Honestly, every time I see his jet mode, I see Thunderwing. The jet styling just isn't Starscreamish enough to convince me that the toy was designed with him in mind. It's like taking Combiner Wars Motormaster and selling it as Optimus Prime first.



Zob (this also might explain why no effort was made to get his jet cockpit to turn into his chest)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 1:28:38 PM UTC-6, New and Improved Zobovor wrote:
> On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 7:28:26 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
>
> > Did you get 3rd party head? Did you cut the mask off and glue to the head?
>
> I'll have to dig him back out of the box and take some pictures.
>
> > Are you (as an Actionmaster fan) saying that it's now unacceptable to release
> > Actionmasters that can't transform, but it was acceptable for G1 to do it?
> > (This is just curiosity, not trying to sound like an asshole)
>
> I get what they were trying to do. It was an attempt to move Transformers into the action figure market, to allow them to interact with vehicles and playsets. It may have been an attempt to compete directly with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which was hugely popular and had been going strong for a couple of years. Also, with no media support, the toy line really needed a shot in the arm. Ressurecting a lot of familiar faces was a great way to counter the endless horde of nameless, faceless Micromasters with no personalities. Every single Action Masters toy came with *something* that transformed; it just wasn't the main robot character who did. And, really, a lot of the toys, especially the new 1990 characters, looked really cool.
>

Should have given us Transformers that GI Joes or Ninja Turtles could sit in. Human Alliance was pretty cool.

> Now? Well, the toy line isn't in imminent danger of dying, so I don't think any kind of desperate, last-gasp measures are called for. They need to change it up and reinvent the brand every couple of years to keep it fresh, sure, but I don't think the market would tolerate non-transformable Transformers now. It would create too much brand confusion. We had the Heroes of Cybertron figurines, but those were a fringe product and not represented as the main toy line. Also, there's no real reason to do it now. Action Masters were the most highly articulated versions of the characters up to that point, but now that kind of articulation is not only the norm, but is easily surpassed (even Action Masters didn't have elbow joints or swiveling waists).
>

Other toylines of action figures are going backwards. I'm so glad most transformers still have mostly jointed figures.

> Also, if you look at it from an in-universe perspective, Nucleon was kind of a mistake. It was a new power source, and the loss of transformation powers was an unexpected side effect. You can't expect every toy version of Krok from now until eternity to be unable to transform. That was just one stage in his career. It's memorable to us because it was the first time we met him, but we can't expect him to be stuck in robot mode forever any more than we would expect the same, or want it, of Grimlock and Jazz and Starscream.
>

It's expanding on a character, but people get mad when other characters are expanded upon.

I don't hate Krok, I'm just trying to compare things. I haven't gotten Krok yet because I'm hoping to find a good clearance or sale.

> > So, the wings aren't the right shape, or connected to the fuselage in the
> > right place, but at least the train kibble is under the wings instead of
> > aerodynamically on top of the wings trying to pretend to be fuel tanks.
>
> Maybe if the fuel tanks didn't have windows on them? And look exactly like the front end of a bullet train? Shrug.
>

See, I'm bothered more by the wings being attached to the upper fuselage instead of under, and I hate the arms just being there...as arms. Oddly enough it's fine on Sentinel Prime, but Sentinel Prime isn't supposed to be a NASA shuttle.

> > Or we can get bigger suits with Seacons inside, that we can remold for
> > monstercons. That would be crazy, but workable crazy.
>
> Pretender Seacons instead of Targetmaster Seacons? Sure, why not?
>
> > PotP as revealed so far seems very light for a toyline. I hope they reveal
> > more. This is one time I wouldn't mind a Starscream remolded into a Jetfire.
> > I might buy combiner torso Jetfire.
>
> I'm still convinced that Starscream is a predeco. The "real" version of that toy is coming later. Honestly, every time I see his jet mode, I see Thunderwing. The jet styling just isn't Starscreamish enough to convince me that the toy was designed with him in mind. It's like taking Combiner Wars Motormaster and selling it as Optimus Prime first.
>

Starscream could be a predeco again, like he was in CW. We could get all 3 seekers and a Jetfire. I'd like a Thunderwing though, even though Thunderwing has vastly different wings.


Guess Darkwind and Dreadwing would be good Thunderwing limbs, but who would take the other spots?

>
>
> Zob (this also might explain why no effort was made to get his jet cockpit to turn into his chest)

He looks silly in the promo pics with giant feet hanging off of his arms/wings. If the voyager/torso comes with the feet, now the Deluxes/limbs all come with hands. There will be a lot of extra hands floating around. Too bad we can't have hands for feet, like a monkey.

[New and Improved Zobovor]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 10:55:32 PM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> Should have given us Transformers that GI Joes or Ninja Turtles could sit in.
> Human Alliance was pretty cool.

There was actually at least one crossover Transformers/G.I. Joe toy in development at one point. If there had been some crossover fiction to support the idea, I probably would have bought into it. I had a couple of M.A.S.K. vehicles back in the day.

> Other toylines of action figures are going backwards. I'm so glad most
> transformers still have mostly jointed figures.

Isn't it weird that Transformers used to be statues, and now they're among the best-articulated action figures on the market today?

> It's expanding on a character, but people get mad when other characters are
> expanded upon.

Well, Krok's former ability to transform was always implied. The whole Action Masters story was "these guys could transform, but now they can't." Obviously, that was demonstrably true with Optimus Prime, Megatron, etc. but it was also pretty obvious when you looked at toys like Kick-Off or Axer. It's not like the characters introduced in 1990 were all from the ancient days of Cybertron before transforming was ever invented.

I don't mind characters getting expanded upon, but I dislike it when it violates what we know about the characters. The Fall of Cybertron versions of the Combaticons, for example, bothered me because they were presented as the cybertronic versions of the characters. That makes no sense when the characters were created on Earth.

> Guess Darkwind and Dreadwing would be good Thunderwing limbs, but who would
> take the other spots?

Runamuck and Runabout. Using, probably, the Combiner Wars Wheeljack mold.

> If the voyager/torso comes with the feet, now the Deluxes/limbs all come with
> hands. There will be a lot of extra hands floating around.

I saw a photo review of Dreadwind tonight and it struck me how much his combiner hand component looks like a Powermaster engine. I thought that was really cool.


Zob (been to Target twice now, and still no Power of the Primes)

[David Connell]

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 1:27:52 AM UTC-5, New and Improved Zobovor wrote:

> I don't mind characters getting expanded upon, but I dislike it when it violates what we know about the characters. The Fall of Cybertron versions of the Combaticons, for example, bothered me because they were presented as the cybertronic versions of the characters. That makes no sense when the characters were created on Earth.

Those weren't the G1 Combaticons - they were from the Prime/Aligned universe. WFC/FOC were officially the backstory for TF: Prime, and there was way too much that didn't match up with G1 for the games to be G1 prequels. Which suits me fine, since I HATE every attempt at redoing G1 fiction. Toys are fine but leave the fiction alone.

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

FOC was clearly meant to both be G1 and TF:Prime at the same time. The cards for the toys were done to evoke the G1 boxart style, for instance. And then there were the Generation 2 FOC Combaticons, who were clearly G2, as it says so on the box.

As far as the Combaticons go, they did exist on Cybertron on some point, and got their laser cores removed and put into prison. The Cybertronian modes could easily fit as their pre-imprisonment bodies. The G2 Cybertronian modes could have been them post-G2 toy era going back to their more comfortable bodies.

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 10:26:37 PM UTC-8, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
> So for over ten years now, we've been getting the Generations line,and it's gotten even better with Combiner Wars, Titans Return, and now Power of the Primes. For the most part they are re-imaginings of the G1 characters using modern technology.
>
> But there are many many differences.
>
> Headmasters are now Titan Masters, there are no more stat-readouts on their chests.

There's all sorts of backstory elements in the comics or wherever, but are Titan Masters really any different from Headmasters? The stat readouts just seem like a thing, rather than an important thing.

> I hear complaints on some of the figures. To me they are great updates, but all I hear are complaints. TR Blurr worked out really well, but everyone tells me his colors are bad. Where conversely, people liked Scourge but I couldn't stand the feet flaps flapping about loosely in vehicle mode.

The color scheme for TR Blurr basically makes him an entirely different character it is so off. But I'm also not a huge fan of Scourge.

> What is good enough? People greatly disliked Classics Astrotrain, because it was a bullet train, and the train nose was on the shuttle wings. But TR Astrotrain doesn't look like a shuttle or a train, and people seem to like it.

I really like Classics Astrotrain, but I am mostly alone. I can accept TR Astrotrain as a different body for Astrotrain, but he's not the character as we saw him in the cartoon.

> I've heard nothing but complaints on all versions of Galvatron, but TR Galvatron aside from the mask was awesome, even with a jet mode.

Do people not like Galvatron? So weird.

> People tell me they want Springer and Sandstorm, but their Generations versions are some of my favorite Generations toys.

Ok, these two I don't love... They don't seem entirely solid, with required tolerances a bit tighter than the materials can deliver.

> TR Krok is just a recolor of Skullcruncher, and G1 Krok had no alt mode, but the new Krok is widely accepted even though it' not true to the G1. Not being true to G1 is probably the most common complaint I hear about things, yet Krok is great because he's not accurate?

Krok is great because he is awesome. I think they got the names wrong, as Krok should be the head, and Gator-raid the body... Overall, though, he does something new with the character while remaining true to the original.

> CW and TR brought in new characters, or new versions of characters that didn't have a G1 toy, such as A3 and Sentinel Prime. While these toys had lukewarm reception, others, like Alpha Bravo, Rook, and Offroad seemed to be outright rejected by serious fans.

Rook is great. I love Rook.

And Offroad... he's not terrible. I want to like him, I really do.

> Will the legends scale Pretenders be good enough? They look tiny and cute, but will we settle for that? We got Generations Thunderwing, Skullgrin, Metalhawk, and Bludgeon, but were those acceptable being that they weren't pretenders? Given a choice between tiny pretender or full size with no pretender ability, which is more acceptable? Or is neither acceptable and we need full shells?

No one really remembers the inner robots of the Pretenders, so I think it will be fine...

[David Connell]

WFC maybe, but FOC has too much going on that leads directly into Prime. Bumblebee getting his voicebox damaged. Trypticon getting remade into the Nemesis. Cliffjumper showing up with his Prime head design. And the whole Dark Energon thing ...

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

I got a piece of FoC Ruination and a piece of FoC Bruticus at the thrift store and you are making me wonder if it's worth getting a whole team.

Of course I really liked FoC Jazz and most of the people here hated him, so maybe this is one of those things I'll have to get anyway and see if I like it or not.

[New and Improved Zobovor]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 8:09:04 PM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> Of course I really liked FoC Jazz and most of the people here hated him, so
> maybe this is one of those things I'll have to get anyway and see if I like
> it or not.

I liked the idea of Jazz. The execution was just terrible. He was made of some of the shittiest plastic I've ever seen in an official Transformer toy. I know Hasbro was experimenting with different ways of cutting costs and coming in under budget, but replacing plastic with parmesan cheese is not the way to do it.


Zob (almost bought Sideswipe until I realized they were the exact same toy)

[Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys)]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 12:28:38 PM UTC-7, Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys) wrote:

>> Did you get 3rd party head? Did you cut the mask off and glue to the head?
>
> I'll have to dig him back out of the box and take some pictures.

As promised:

http://www.mediafire.com/?7qcfd3laq585m

Like you guessed, I cut the mask off and glued it directly to the head. I had to shave down some of the plastic to get a really good fit, but I really like the result. The mini-figure doesn't fit in the jet cockpit now, because of the helmet prongs, but I think the jet mode is stupid anyway.


Zob (used to have a web site where I would share this sort of thing)