Stop hating Dreamwave
Michael Garibay
for new information such as when new toys are coming out and other
interesting transformer stuff. I got back into transformers with the
purchase of a transmetal rattrap and have since been hooked. I have
also read comics since i was 10, 11 years ago.
What brought me out of the shadows is the sheer amount of mean and
cruel criticism that pours out of att at times. It is so bad,
especially with the new comic, why would anybody care to respect our
opinions?
The dreamwave comic book does not suck, as far as comics go it's
pretty damn good. I've been a fan of dreamwave since they hit it big
with Darkminds and have always been happy with their product.
Something you might not know or realize is the are an ART based
company their books have always been fast reads.
They are not sellouts. Dreamwave has always put out that much product
(calenders, posters, lithos, remember their art based.) with its
properties. They are very proud of the characters they work on and
promote them. They haven't overadvertised the book (not one add in
wizard yet) even though wizard, cnn, and others have advertised them.
The add count in their books is probably less then most comics and
IT'S IN THE BACK, you can read the story uninterupted except for the
pinup
I wont go into defending the writing here maybe in another post. There
really isn't a need to other then to say maybe the reason almost all
transformer stories since maybe the old furman stuff is dumped on is
that we are all getting much older then the target audience and with
each year the stories tech specs and so on will get weaker. It doesn't
matter that this summer we will be buying our 10th Optimus and we
think it's repetivie to keep doing a semi and a trailer because in
many homes some small kid is getting their first Prime and just fell
in love with it
Thanks for hearing out the new guy
feel free to respond but please easy on flames and insults
Havok of the Defenders
Pyre
>
> The dreamwave comic book does not suck, as far as comics go it's
> pretty damn good.
That's only your opinion. If someone else doesn't like it then they're
free to do so and express that.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"I really wished I could have saved you,
then who would have saved me from myself.
Right now, well, I could use a stiff drink
to kill the pain that's deep inside my bones"
- Dashboard Prophets
Andrew Richards
being a bunch of whinging, impossible to please, self opinionated, spoiled
brats. I totally agree with you Michael- it's about time that alot of
transfans out there learned what it means to have gratitude. I mean let's
face it, ladt I heard the percentage of fans out there that make up Hasbro's
target market make up less than 20%- yet if you talk to some transfans out
there, they act like they make or break hasbro. Now if all the whingers out
there think they can do a better job, then go on and do one yourself-
otherwise be grateful, cause it's rather hypocritical to attack something
when you're incapable of doing any better.
Oh, and Michael, nice to know I'm not alone here :).
Pyre <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3CDB7475...@crosswinds.net...
BWsilverbolt
>>Snip<<<
> pretty damn good. I've been a fan of dreamwave since they hit it big
> with Darkminds and have always been happy with their product.
> Something you might not know or realize is the are an ART based
> company their books have always been fast reads.
>
> feel free to respond but please easy on flames and insults
>
> Havok of the Defenders
I have to agree with you, I really enjoyed the DW comic that came out.
I find it has a slightly darker image to the Transformers. I don't
understand why some of the guys sit there and attack it over and over
in about 10 diffrent posts. Of course I am open to anyone offering
thier opinon, but it gets on my nerves when they harp on it with only
saying "It Sucks" . If you don't like it you don't have to buy it.
Honsetly I think some people just like to hear themselves bitch and
moan and cry like a spolied child.
Frigidus
friends (who say I should grow up just about every-other time I talk to
them) dig the Dreamwave art. Agreed, they are short, but I'm not playing
"count-the-dots" anymore.
-Frigidus
"Play that record backwards, it's a message for the suckers"
Ground Zero
however have problems with the WRITING. Always have. Dreamwave's work has
always been convoluted, and most of their books have been blatant rip-offs
of ideas from different Anime titles.
Neon Cyber - Akira
Darkminds - Ghost in the Shell
Warlands - Lodoss War...
But writing complaints aside, I am honestly sick and tired of hearing "be
grateful you have Transformers at all". It's like getting bad food at a
restaurant and being told "be grateful you have food at all". And yes,
that's a valid comparison.
Hello, wake up and welcome to corporate America! We have a right to express
our concerns and complaints, especially if their valid. Yes, I do like the
Dreamwave comics so far, but it *is* cliché, in my opinion. And I have a
right to express my opinion. If you like the comic, start a thread about
what you LIKED about the comic. It's as simple as that. Stop bitching at
everyone else because they have a few complaints.
-GZ
"Frigidus" <f...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:h_NC8.121218$q8.12...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Ground Zero
> I have to agree with you, I really enjoyed the DW comic that came out.
> I find it has a slightly darker image to the Transformers. I don't
> understand why some of the guys sit there and attack it over and over
> in about 10 diffrent posts. Of course I am open to anyone offering
> thier opinon, but it gets on my nerves when they harp on it with only
> saying "It Sucks" . If you don't like it you don't have to buy it.
> Honsetly I think some people just like to hear themselves bitch and
> moan and cry like a spolied child.
Got to agree with you 100%.
If you think it sucks, VALIDATE YOUR FRIGGIN' OPINION. No one wants to read
a dozen "it sucks" thread every month that say that and only that.
-GZ
baTTatron
alot of you don't realize something, the 80's are back in a big way
with GI Joe and now the Transformers. I realize that alot of you guys
are big trans fans. You have to see something though, you have a comic
book dedicated to something that you feel it necessary to post a
message about and rip apart an issue about. Alot of us cant do that
with our child hood heros. Would you feel better knowing that a
transformer comic was never made, or that you can read soemthing now
that has transformers in it!?!? Really now you should feel happy that
you have something to complain about, rather than nothing to complain
about at all. You dont see the He-man fans angry or the ThunderCat
fans such as myself pissed of. Look at the characters and notice the
pain staking detail that he [ Pat Lee] put into making these guys look
how you (the trans fans) wanted them too look. For Christ sakes theres
a freaking Wind sock that most of you "die hards" bought not to
mention a freaking transforming penguin for crying out loud. (yes i do
know something about this stuff) Just be glad that you have something
rather than being freaking anal that you have nothing all together. If
you feel that you can write something better than by god get off your
fat energon wasting asses and write the god dam thing and submit it,
rather than bitching on a board like 10 year old girls.
Rik Bakke
> If you feel that you can write something better than by god get
> off your fat energon wasting asses and write the god dam thing
> and submit it, rather than bitching on a board like 10 year old girls.
I resent that. I'm perfectly capable of bitching like a 28-year-old man.
--
Rik Bakke - Ain't been bitchin' 'bout nothin', really, but anyway.
silve...@c2i.net
The Cybertron Chronicle
http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/
Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #74 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98-002++ CN+++ OM+
Ground Zero
without actually saying WHY they think it sucks, or people that think
anything with "Transformers" stamped on it is nothing short of gold, and we
should be grateful -- even if it's stamped on a steaming pile of dog feces.
For the record, as an artist, I LOVE criticism. Negative or positive.
Criticism only makes me a better artist. I love to hear how I can improve
my work, and I'm aware that nothing is perfect. If not for criticism, I
would not be as driven to improve my work.
I'm having a piss-poor day, so let me tear apart your argument for a while..
> I realize that alot of you guys
> are big trans fans. You have to see something though, you have a comic
> book dedicated to something that you feel it necessary to post a
> message about and rip apart an issue about.
See my above feces coment, and welcome to the free world. Welcome to
America. Just because it has Transformers written/drawn all over it,
doesn't mean we have to like it. And just because we like it (and quite
frankly, I like it a lot for the most part) doesn't mean we can't nitpick
After all, nothing will ever improve if you don't look to see what's wrong.
Who knows, maybe the Dreamwave crew is reading this and taking some of our
criticism to heart. If your parents/teachers never said "you could do
better than that" when you got a C+, you might not realize that yes, you
could do better.
> Alot of us cant do that
> with our child hood heros. Would you feel better knowing that a
> transformer comic was never made, or that you can read soemthing now
> that has transformers in it!?!?
Again, see my steaming pile of dog feces comment. I don't feel the need to
scream like a 10 year old girl every time something is printed with
Transformers on the logo.
I love the old Ninja Turtle comics, doesn't mean I have to like the cartoon.
> Really now you should feel happy that
> you have something to complain about, rather than nothing to complain
> about at all.
Blah blah blah, see above.
> You dont see the He-man fans angry or the ThunderCat
> fans such as myself pissed of.
You have nothing to be pissed off about. He-man only has some (kick-ass)
new toys that havn't even hit the shelves yet, and nothing has been done
with ThunderCats since the '80s.
There's really nothing there to whine about.
> Look at the characters and notice the pain staking detail that he [ Pat
Lee] put into making these guys look
> how you (the trans fans) wanted them too look.
Yes, and personally I love them dearly. But that's just my oppinion.
> For Christ sakes theres
> a freaking Wind sock that most of you "die hards" bought not to
> mention a freaking transforming penguin for crying out loud.
Umm... your just as guilty as the so called "die hards" your complaining
about. See the dog feces comment. Everything Transformers is not gold.
Deal with it fanboy.
> (yes i do
> know something about this stuff) Just be glad that you have something
> rather than being freaking anal that you have nothing all together. If
> you feel that you can write something better than by god get off your
> fat energon wasting asses and write the god dam thing and submit it,
> rather than bitching on a board like 10 year old girls.
Must resist urge to flame...
A few points if I may:
- Most of us don't write for a living and have lives outside of
Transformers.
- I have seen better fanfics than this.
- In regards to the "bitching 10 year old girls -- it's our right. And oh,
by the way, what are you doing right now? Bitching like a 10 year old
fanboy.
- If I'm not mistaken, Dreamwave won the rights to the comic based mostly
on the fan opinion of their art. Not saying everyone likes it, most of us
though, think that Pat Lee can draw some pretty kick ass artwork. It's just
a shame they can't write too well. I'm not saying the story is necessarily
BAD, but it could use a bit of work.
Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but my point is, there's nothing wrong with
criticism. You can't expect everyone to like everything. Not every
Transfan loved Beast Machines. Not ever Transfan loved RiD. You can't
expect them to. You can't expect consumers to just "take it and like it"
because it's got the Transformers brand.
-GZ
Steve-o Stonebraker
> I'm so glad I wasn't the only one rooting for Dreamwave. Seriously, even my
> friends (who say I should grow up just about every-other time I talk to
> them) dig the Dreamwave art. Agreed, they are short, but I'm not playing
> "count-the-dots" anymore.
I must not be reading the same threads you guys are, because I've seen
very little blind Dreamwave-bashing... (And I don't mean that
sarcastically; I don't read most of the threads about the comic because I
find them highly repetitive.) In general, I'd say that just because
somebody is complaining, that doesn't mean they aren't (or weren't)
rooting for Dreamwave. And it doesn't neccesarily mean they aren't happy
that the comic was made. They just want a product that they enjoy.
I'm sure there *are* people who are being vindictively harsh in their
assesment of the new comic. That always happens with any new product.
There are also people who are being uncritically enthusiastic, like many
of the posts on the comicon.com boards which are basically "wow! this is
great news! Dreamwave is incapable of error!" And personally I find that
almost as annoying.
I'm no fan of negativity, so I agree with the thread progenitor that SUX
posts are counterproductive. I feel like the tone of a lot of these
posts, though, is that constructive, level-headed criticisms are just as
bad, or indicate thanklesness, or something, and I don't agree with that.
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Avias
> If you think it sucks, VALIDATE YOUR FRIGGIN' OPINION. No one wants to read
> a dozen "it sucks" thread every month that say that and only that.
Woo. It's Beast Machines season one all over again. And BW season one.
And RiD. And the Armada preview pics. Ad nauseum. It's like there's a
script everyone follows when something new comes out.
For the record, the majority of the negative opinions on the Dreamwave
comics that *I've* read have been *more* than validated. Nice big posts
where the authors do as much as they can to point out the book's
perceived failings on both technical and emotional levels. Their views
on the artwork, writing, plot, and all the variant covers are *quite*
well outlined at this point. On the other hand, the vast majority of the
positive opinions put forth run along the lines of 'Pat Lee ROXXORS!'
'It's Transformers and it's better than nothing,' and the always popular
'I love this, how can you possibly not like it, it's the best thing
ever!' Really, you'd think people would try harder.
As for me? Honestly, my interest in TFs is at a pretty low ebb right
now. I'm a junkie for that 'new toy' feeling, and there hasn't been
anything truly *new* in TFs for months, and won't be until Armada comes
out. The G1 mini, being pretty much the antithesis of all things new and
exciting, holds no interest for me. Zero. Zip. Nada. It's a minor curio,
destined to be forgotten completely when the regular Armada series hits
the shelf. And looking at it through a disinterested, mostly objective
eye... it's really not that good.
It's not that good as a comic. I've seen some *GOOD* comics, and this
ain't it. Take away the huge, dripping gobs of nostalgia and all the
flashy art tricks, and what are you left with? Well, a horribly green
writer that hasn't figured out how to work the medium yet, and decent
but kinda lazy artist that's been told he's a lot better than he
actually is, really. Sarracini's a new writer doing his first book, and
it shows. There's some potential for good writing in there, but he just
doesn't have the experience or technical expertise to pull it off. Sure,
we can't expect him to be the next Alan Moore right out of the box, but
he could use a few more lessons in Writing for Comics. Or a better
editor, possibly. As for Pat Lee... Lee does *great* robot pin-up art.
Look at his covers. He puts a great deal of detail and expression into
each individual character. Then he pastes them all over someone else's
background and lets the colorist take care of all the flashy lights and
faction symbols. They seldom *interact*- with the background or with
each other- and it makes the whole thing look more than slightly
half-assed. Which is sad, because it *is* pretty good art. He just
spends so much time doing the little details that the composition as a
whole suffers.
There is potential here, however. Once they get things up to speed, say,
issue 5 or so, it could be really good. Sarracini can write a pretty
good fight scene, as shown in the Armada preview, and Lee is a great
robot artist. All they have to do is get away from the morally
ambiguous, dully suprised humans that've taken up most of the first two
issues and get back to giant robots beating the living daylights out of
each other. :)
Avias
I knows what I likes.
Cyb
>Ground Zero wrote:
>
>> If you think it sucks, VALIDATE YOUR FRIGGIN' OPINION. No one wants to read
>> a dozen "it sucks" thread every month that say that and only that.
>
>Woo. It's Beast Machines season one all over again. And BW season one.
>And RiD. And the Armada preview pics. Ad nauseum. It's like there's a
>script everyone follows when something new comes out.
Ah, so you know all about the fandom then, do you?
- Cyb. Only show never to come under fire when it first came out was
GENERATION ONE. And that's because we were all too young to realize
its faults.
http://www.angelfire.com/apes/axalon
Cyb
Garibay) wrote:
>What brought me out of the shadows is the sheer amount of mean and
>cruel criticism that pours out of att at times. It is so bad,
>especially with the new comic, why would anybody care to respect our
>opinions?
Well, this being a Transformers newsgroup, I'd say it's a prime spot
to post you opinions on, well, Transformers and all Transformers
related jargon. Seems logical, right?
As for our opinions, well, heh, that's the fandom for you. I haven't
been a part of this overly long, but I've read a good amount of old
posts and such on google, and transfans can be downright evil
sometimes, weather it be a new show coming out (the switch to beast
modes) or a new writer taking over old characters (BM) or anything
really. However, hidden within all of those attacks and sometimes
just blatant stupidity are a lot of well thought out, backed up, just
all around awesome things to read.
Just because someone does not think highly of everything that has the
word 'Transformers' stamped on it does not mean they are mean or
whatever you're implying. A lot of is is constructive, and as long as
there isn't too much "so and so SuXorZ!" or (the oppisite)
"Transformers are great, everything Transformers ia perfect!" then
it's okay by my opinion. I for one enjoyed reading all the stuff
about DW #1, and I look forward to finally being able to read the
stuff about #2 when I get the damn thing in the mail.
>The dreamwave comic book does not suck, as far as comics go it's
>pretty damn good. I've been a fan of dreamwave since they hit it big
>with Darkminds and have always been happy with their product.
>Something you might not know or realize is the are an ART based
>company their books have always been fast reads.
Well, I can't say I'm a comic fan, actually aside from the ones that
came with my Spider-Man toys, the DW comic was the first one I bought
in a couple years at least. For the most part I think the art is
stellar. Okay, let me rephrase that, the penciling is stellar. The
way it's pasted haphazardly sometimes onto a background is not.
>The add count in their books is probably less then most comics and
>IT'S IN THE BACK, you can read the story uninterupted except for the
>pinup
I did enjoy the lack of ads, but there were a couple within the pages
if I remember right. Not as many as your average comic, but there
were a couple. Could be wrong of course, as I'm too lazy to check
(they're upstairs), but that's okay.
>I wont go into defending the writing here maybe in another post. There
>really isn't a need to other then to say maybe the reason almost all
>transformer stories since maybe the old furman stuff is dumped on is
>that we are all getting much older then the target audience and with
>each year the stories tech specs and so on will get weaker. It doesn't
>matter that this summer we will be buying our 10th Optimus and we
>think it's repetivie to keep doing a semi and a trailer because in
>many homes some small kid is getting their first Prime and just fell
>in love with it
Well that's great, but you overlook the core reason for your post,
which is saying the DW comic sucks (which it doesn't, in my opinion).
The DW comic is specificaly aimed at older fans and nostalgia freaks
who happen upon it and remember TFs back in the 80s.
The majority of us know TFs are aimed at kids, and we know that
Optimus Prime and Megatron are what sell the line usually. However,
the DW comic is not aimed at the same audience that say, Armada is, so
we really have right to complain about the writing. Granted it wasn't
the most horrible thing I've ever read, but it wasn't what I would
call amazing writing. Not yet anyway, I can hope it will get better.
As for tech specs and stories, well, they really have gotten weaker.
Compare some of the old G1 tech specs where you actually get a feeling
for the character the toy represents with some from RID or BW which,
essentially suck. Unless you have a skewed view of what good writing
is, please don't tell me that tech specs (for the most part) have not
been getting worse, because they really have.
Writing? Need I point out RID. Silly, yes, but not the best writing.
Also I'd like to address the whole 'be glad we're even getting TFs'
argument. It's crap. If I pay a certain amount of my hard earned
cash for a toy or a comic or a video or whatever, I expect something
from it. I mean, do you go into a video store and buy half a movie
for full price? Oh well, what do you want, it's still the movie you
wanted, be glad you even got it. Same deal here. I buy a toy, a
comic, a whatever, I expect the get what I paid for, and if I feel
that I don't, well, then I should warn other people before they make
the same mistake that I did, right? And that's that.
Aaron F. Bourque
>Subject: Stop hating Dreamwave
I don't hate Dreamwave. I jsut think they're not doing a great
job.
This attitude got me about Beast Machines, too, only in reverse.
People actually *did* hate Skir for BM.
::sigh::
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR HATE!
DOUBLEDEALER IN 2004!
DEFCON NOW AND FOREVER!
--
http://delinquents.keenspace.com/d/20010703.html
Damn the tree and all its kind!
Nothing's impossible in the hot soul.
Hell damn crap fun!
Gustavo Wombat
> pretty damn good. I've been a fan of dreamwave since they hit it big
> with Darkminds and have always been happy with their product.
> Something you might not know or realize is the are an ART based
> company their books have always been fast reads.
As far as comics go, it's mediocre. It positively screams "adequate".
The plotting is terrible, the writing is bad, and the art is indistict
-- every human character looks just like Spike, to the point where it
can be hard to follow.
Let's take a look at some of the comics that are out there right now:
"Batman" Brubaker/McDaniel
"Detective" Rucka/???
"Daredevil" Bendis
"Powers" Bendis/Oeming
"New X-Men" Grant/Quietly
Can you honestly say that in terms of characterization, plotting,
dialog, and clarity of art that Dreamwave's Transformers even comes
close?
Sure, there are worse comics than Dreamwave's Transformers out there,
but that doesn't mean it's good.
> They are not sellouts.
I'm not sure anyone ever said that they've sold out.
I'm not even sure anyone ever said that they ever had some core values
that would have been required before they could sell out.
Seriously though, other than a few malcontent completists, I don't
think anyone has complained about the multiple covers and all the
lithographs and everything. You get to choose what cover you want on
your comic. Woo-hoo. Or if you have some kind of sick compulsion, you
can buy all of them. Or start washing your hands every 20 minutes.
Gustavo (who likes compulsive hand-washers, because they're clean)
Desperado00
I'm guessing you haven't seen DPrime's work, then, have you? :)
Seriously, though, I've liked most of the artwork I've seen from the new
comics. Granted, some of Pat Lee's uber-heroic poses wouldn't be possible
unless in a gravity-free environment, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good
artist. I mean, we've all got *some* flaws to us. Yes, even I do. I'm sure I
do. Well, okay, I can't really think of anything right now, but I'm sure there
must be *something*. Anyways, back to the point. I can't personally comment
on the writing of the new comics, as I'm not a big comic book fan and haven't
gotten one yet, but it can't be *too* bad with the way the books seem to be
flying out of the comic shops.
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
cappeca
> transformer comic was never made,
> Look at the characters and notice the
> pain staking detail that he [ Pat Lee] put into making these guys look
> how you (the trans fans) wanted them too look.
Actually, those are not *his* designs, just so you know...
> If
> you feel that you can write something better than by god get off your
> fat energon wasting asses and write the god dam thing and submit it,
> rather than bitching on a board like 10 year old girls.
There *are* fanfics much better tha DWs comic, so this has happened
already.
For myself, I don't think the comic is bad. I'd just say that DW's
propositions were too high for the final result. They should have kept
it more quiet, and let fandom itself admire the final work.
Cesar
e
quite incredible, and most fans are prolly pleased that there is a
comic. The story or at least the plot elements like the thundercats
element is quite cheesy to me and some other members of this
newsgroup. There is nothing wrong with criticizing the work after all
this is a discussion group. If everyone agreed then there would be no
discussion. Yes I agree some fans are extremely harsh , myself
included. I have said in the past "the story sucks". Anyway in my
opinion currently the story is not very good, but I will try to
refrain from using harsh words like "suck" next time as it offends
lots of you. And I hope some of you guys will tone down that self
righteous attitude of yours, the "You suck/are stupid/eats babies
cause you think dreamwave sucks" attitude. Also attack the points
someone makes not the person's character. And if you guys still can't
take criticism I suggest you guys move to one of those numerous facist
countries out there where people think the same or are suppressed to.
Michael...@yahoo.com (Michael Garibay) wrote in message news:<108b91f5.02050...@posting.google.com>...
Jackpot
>
> For the record, the majority of the negative opinions on the Dreamwave
> comics that *I've* read have been *more* than validated. Nice big posts
> where the authors do as much as they can to point out the book's
> perceived failings on both technical and emotional levels. Their views
> on the artwork, writing, plot, and all the variant covers are *quite*
> well outlined at this point. On the other hand, the vast majority of the
> positive opinions put forth run along the lines of 'Pat Lee ROXXORS!'
> 'It's Transformers and it's better than nothing,' and the always popular
> 'I love this, how can you possibly not like it, it's the best thing
> ever!' Really, you'd think people would try harder.
I agree completely, Avi. It's rather interesting how reversed this is
from the normal trend. With every other new element of Transformerdom,
I would've agreed more with the post that started this thread. Usually
there IS a huge influx of "SUXXORS" voices that batters away at the
heart of the NG. However, this time around.... I'm not seeing it. The
force of nostalgia seems to be outweighing the usual force of resistance
within the ranks of Transfan idiocy. And some of our most intelligent
voices are also our most critical.
It's not a clean break, certainly. I've seen a fair share of
intelligent praise and mindless bashing. But still, the general trend
is definitely askew here.
As for me, I openly criticize, but I also praise. I calls it like I
sees it. I view criticism as a tool for improvement. And, yes,
underneath the critiques, I *am* still grateful that Neo-G1 is reviving
the love of TF in old and new fans everywhere. It's off to a rough
start, but DW seems genuinely passionate to me. I look forward to where
their work will go, and if by some miniscule chance they happen upon my
critiques, I would hope that they consider them and understand my
reasoning, resulting an even better product in the future.
Or I could shut my mouth because I don't worship with enough fervor,
which is apparently what several fans want from this NG.
- Jackpot (It's JUST A COMIC, people.)
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
Túrin
> - Cyb. Only show never to come under fire when it first came out was
> GENERATION ONE. And that's because we were all too young to realize
> its faults.
No, it's because most of us didn't have access to USENET. I certainly
noticed things like "Where doesn't Prime's trailer go?" and "Why does
Starscream have 97 parts to be lost, why couldn't they have designed it
so everything had a place to go?"
And don't get me started on what I would have said about the movie when
it came out, once I recovered enough to be able to speak again.
On the other hand, I would have posted a lot of great things about it
too. GI JOE, on the other hand, I would have ripped into a lot more.
It really annoyed me that they *always* had to show a little parachute
so we'd know nobody got killed when their *plane exploded*.
It is true, I didn't notice as *many* faults as a kid. But I was
already quite a nitpicker, even then.
They call me Túrin. You should too.
Thylacine 2000
> Yeah and in the process continiue to increase the fandom's reputation for
> being a bunch of whinging, impossible to please, self opinionated, spoiled
> brats. I totally agree with you Michael- it's about time that alot of
> transfans out there learned what it means to have gratitude.
Dreamwave Comics had a farm, E-I-E-I-O!
And on that farm there was a sheep, E-I-E-I-O!
With a "sit down!" here,
And a "shut up!" there,
"Sit down! Shut up! Using judgment's fucked up!"
Dreamwave Comics had a farm, E-I-E-I-O!
Paul Segal
Wow.
The rest of this thread is no longer necessary.
-Paul Segal
Email: aster...@yahoo.com ICQ: 24024819 AIM: asterphage
http://www.crosswinds.net/~asterphage
Fully transformerable.
Pyre
> Yeah and in the process continiue to increase the fandom's reputation for
> being a bunch of whinging, impossible to please, self opinionated, spoiled
> brats.
You're not exactly making yourself out to be anything BETTER than that.
Get over yourself, and please don't come back until you learn some basic
english writing skills, not to mention some actual debate tactics other
than "u thnk it so bad y dnt u du b3t3r LOL"
--
Pyre[Rock] - What the hell is a "whinger" anyway?
Sky Shadow
> Anyways, back to the point. I can't personally comment
> on the writing of the new comics, as I'm not a big comic book fan and
haven't
> gotten one yet, but it can't be *too* bad with the way the books seem to
be
> flying out of the comic shops.
Hey, yeah! And the new *Nsync single can't be too bad with the way it seems
to be flying out of the music shops...
The difference between the two is that the people buying the *Nsync song
actually *know* what they're getting (even though it sounds like crap to
me). The people buying the Transformers comics (particularly the case with
issue #1) know almost nothing except that it contains the Transformers
brand-name and it has pretty pictures. Everyone who bought issue #1 would
have bought it regardless of what it was. The real measure of whether it's
popular is how many people stay on until #6 or how many people pick up
*Armada* or Furman's comic or how many are around fifteen years from now,
*still* talking about it. It doesn't take the Gallup Organisation to work
out that regardless of how many covers they stick on the comics, sales will
drop off.
And even still, just because something's popular doesn't make it good.
Sky Shadow.
--
"With the addition of guns and an enemy to fight, Hasbro had sealed the fate
of the G1 line, which, after some further pitiful attempts to revive the
line, would draw to a close in 1990 in the U.S."
Steven Acevedo
<vf...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
>I heard the percentage of fans out there that make up Hasbro's
>target market make up less than 20%- yet if you talk to some transfans out
>there, they act like they make or break hasbro. Now if all the whingers out
>there think they can do a better job, then go on and do one yourself-
>otherwise be grateful, cause it's rather hypocritical to attack something
>when you're incapable of doing any better. Oh, and Michael, nice to know I'm not alone here :).
Not in the least. Years ago I once visited Marvel Comics on 6th Avenue
and saw lots of artists doing the work of one. I admire their
dedication to the job and it's a thankless one. :)
Steven Acevedo
<ggrond...@BLOCKhotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello, wake up and welcome to corporate America! We have a right to express
>our concerns and complaints, especially if their valid. Yes, I do like the
>Dreamwave comics so far, but it *is* cliché, in my opinion. And I have a
>right to express my opinion. If you like the comic, start a thread about
>what you LIKED about the comic. It's as simple as that. Stop bitching at
>everyone else because they have a few complaints.
(Shakes head in utter digust)
Only when you do what they do will you see that's easier to please
yourself than everyone else.
Andrew Richards
described in a previous posts are sidestepping it, because they have no
intention of being caught out by it.
The sad part is that I was expecting alt.toys.transformers to be mainly
hypocritical, bratty, impossible to please transfans, who think they run the
fandom, and overrate the fandoms importance in hasbro's grand scheme of
things (the truth is that based on the last statistics I'm aware of, if
every fan pulled out, they'd still have 70%-80% of their market)- the kind
that give Transfans in general a bad name. However I was willing to give
this place a chance- too bad it seems, that I got exactly what I
expected......
Pyre <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3CDC2F55...@crosswinds.net...
Jandaru
You do know what a whingeing is, right?
Pyre
> Well, my point still remains- too bad all the'SUX posters' as they'd been
> described in a previous posts are sidestepping it, because they have no
> intention of being caught out by it.
>
I don't know what the hell you've been reading, but I've yet to see any
posts that outright say "Dreamwave Suxors d00d!" I HAVE seen some that
are along the lines of "Dreamwave R0x0rs d00d!" Then there's your posts
that just say "u thnk it so bad y dnt u du b3t3r LOL!"
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"I really wished I could have saved you,
then who would have saved me from myself.
Right now, well, I could use a stiff drink
to kill the pain that's deep inside my bones"
- Dashboard Prophets
Andrew Richards
e <ecs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:871e1e52.02051...@posting.google.com...
> I don't think the majority of a.t.t.ers hates dreamwave. The art is
> quite incredible, and most fans are prolly pleased that there is a
> comic. The story or at least the plot elements like the thundercats
> element is quite cheesy to me and some other members of this
> newsgroup. There is nothing wrong with criticizing the work after all
> this is a discussion group. If everyone agreed then there would be no
> discussion. Yes I agree some fans are extremely harsh , myself
> included. I have said in the past "the story sucks". Anyway in my
> opinion currently the story is not very good, but I will try to
> refrain from using harsh words like "suck" next time as it offends
> lots of you. And I hope some of you guys will tone down that self
> righteous attitude of yours, the "You suck/are stupid/eats babies
> cause you think dreamwave sucks" attitude. Also attack the points
> someone makes not the person's character. And if you guys still can't
> take criticism I suggest you guys move to one of those numerous facist
> countries out there where people think the same or are suppressed to.
It's not logical criticisms of the comic I have a problem with- it's when
things get harsh and nasty and you're left with the feeling of "Oh great
here it comes- yet more whinging from a 'typical transfan'"- cause let's
face it- we don't exactly have the best reputation around when it comes to
that.
And I have to agree taking a second look at the comic- I think Pat Lee needs
to look at the expressions he's putting in the faces of the humans he draws.
Let me ask something though- has anyone here actually email dreamwave about
their gripes- or have they been too busy bitching and whining where it
probably wont make much of a difference?.
Andrew Richards
Thylacine 2000 <thytw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44ac6dd8.0205...@posting.google.com...
Better a 'sheep' as you put it than a whiney, whinging, 'typical transfan'.
Jackpot
> Well, my point still remains- too bad all the'SUX posters' as they'd been
> described in a previous posts are sidestepping it, because they have no
> intention of being caught out by it.
What, your point that if we're incapable of producing a professional
comic, then we have no right to judge one?
Have you EVER honestly looked at entertainment - or, really, any
professional product - that way? By that logic, you should never say a
critical thing about a sitcom, a movie, a song, a book, a ballet, a
comic strip, an opera, or the game on the back of your cereal box if you
haven't done one yourself. "I paid you to fix my car, but the engine
exploded five minutes away from the garage." "Yeah? I'd like to see
YOU do better! You have no right to criticize! And I'm putting another
$500 on your bill."
Besides, I haven't seen you respond to any of the intelligent critiques
with salient counterpoints. You just see what you think is negative
commentary and decide to slap the "crybabies" on the wrist. Who are you
trying to convince?
> The sad part is that I was expecting alt.toys.transformers to be mainly
> hypocritical, bratty, impossible to please transfans, who think they run the
> fandom, and overrate the fandoms importance in hasbro's grand scheme of
> things (the truth is that based on the last statistics I'm aware of, if
> every fan pulled out, they'd still have 70%-80% of their market)- the kind
> that give Transfans in general a bad name. However I was willing to give
> this place a chance- too bad it seems, that I got exactly what I
> expected......
Then go away. We don't need a self-righteous, condescending,
overbearing, self-appointed nanny trying to send us to our rooms without
supper just because we say perfectly reasonable things that you happen
to flip out about.
- Jackpot ("Whinging," indeed.)
Paul Segal
>
>A whinger is someone who whinges.
>You do know what a whingeing is, right?
I happen to be familiar with the term, but you should consider that not
everyone (including, presumably, whoever you're responding to) is from the same
country as you are. To the best of my knowledge, the term "whinging" is
confined to Britain and Australia.
Andrew Richards
Paul Segal <jask...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020510153032...@mb-fu.aol.com...
> Thylacine 2000) wrote:
> >
> >"Andrew Richards" wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah and in the process continiue to increase the fandom's reputation
for
> >> being a bunch of whinging, impossible to please, self opinionated,
spoiled
> >> brats. I totally agree with you Michael- it's about time that alot of
> >> transfans out there learned what it means to have gratitude.
> >
> >Dreamwave Comics had a farm, E-I-E-I-O!
> >And on that farm there was a sheep, E-I-E-I-O!
> >
> >With a "sit down!" here,
> >And a "shut up!" there,
> >"Sit down! Shut up! Using judgment's fucked up!"
> >
> >Dreamwave Comics had a farm, E-I-E-I-O!
> >
>
> Wow.
> The rest of this thread is no longer necessary.
transfans' from making them.
Paul Segal
Ugh, so now is this an argument over whether it's better to be a blind,
mindless hater or a blind, mindless advocate?
Can't you people just accept that others have their other opinions, and stop
telling us that we have no right to criticize or advocate Dreamwave?
Paul Segal
>>
>> Wow.
>> The rest of this thread is no longer necessary.
>
>Whigning, whiny 'bitch-posts' aren't either- doesn't stop 'typical
>transfans' from making them.
>
Guess what? You are bitching. The fact that you're bitching about other people
bitching doesn't make it any better.
Thy's song was FUNNY. Everyone's stupid posts insulting others for their
opinions - or, in some cases, for DARING to post their opinion on ATT - are NOT
FUNNY.
Funny posts good, opinions good.
Insults, bitching bad.
Andrew Richards
>
> > Yeah and in the process continiue to increase the fandom's reputation
for
> > being a bunch of whinging, impossible to please, self opinionated,
spoiled
> > brats.
>
>
> You're not exactly making yourself out to be anything BETTER than that.
> Get over yourself, and please don't come back until you learn some basic
> english writing skills, not to mention some actual debate tactics other
> than "u thnk it so bad y dnt u du b3t3r LOL"
put the whinging, hypocritical, 'typical transfans' (woops- just realised
that's a tortology) in their place.
>
> --
> Pyre[Rock] - What the hell is a "whinger" anyway?
A whinger is someone who just complains all the time- kinda reminds me of
the fandom quite a bit.
Andrew Richards
Jackpot <i_do_not_read_an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3CDC1614...@hotmail.com...
bitching that seems to occur whenever something new TF related comes out,
that it's gotten to the point where the moment you stumble upon criticism,
it's like "gee, here we go again", even if it may well be justified and
logically supported.
I just wish people would either rationally and objectively give Dreamwave
their feedback if they're not happy about the comic, or try to outdo them by
doing one themselves (and ppl, don't give me the 'there are better fanfics
around' copout because A) did you write them? and B) are they comics?) I
mean seriously ppl- the fandom has a bad enough image already- do we really
wanna make it worse?
Jackpot
> Jackpot wrote:
>>
>>As for me, I openly criticize, but I also praise. I calls it like I
>>sees it. I view criticism as a tool for improvement. And, yes,
>>underneath the critiques, I *am* still grateful that Neo-G1 is reviving
>>the love of TF in old and new fans everywhere. It's off to a rough
>>start, but DW seems genuinely passionate to me. I look forward to where
>>their work will go, and if by some miniscule chance they happen upon my
>>critiques, I would hope that they consider them and understand my
>>reasoning, resulting an even better product in the future.
>>
>>Or I could shut my mouth because I don't worship with enough fervor,
>>which is apparently what several fans want from this NG.
>>
> The problem Jackpot is that some of us are just so sick of the inceasant
> bitching that seems to occur whenever something new TF related comes out,
> that it's gotten to the point where the moment you stumble upon criticism,
> it's like "gee, here we go again", even if it may well be justified and
> logically supported.
Then that, honestly, is your problem, not the critic's. If you're
incapable of seeing our intelligence because of your own frustration,
then there's nothing we can do about that.
> I just wish people would either rationally and objectively give Dreamwave
> their feedback if they're not happy about the comic,
How do you know they're not e-mailing Pat as well? At any rate, I do
know that several ATTers also post the DW boards, which is the next best
thing to direct e-mail. And simply speaking one's mind about a piece of
entertainment amongst a group of other viewers isn't devoid of value.
It's bouncing your ideas around. It's throwing a bit of praise or
displeasure to the other fans to see if they agree or disagree, if
you're wrong and you missed something, or if you're right, and your
point can be bolstered. Or it's advice to other fans who haven't bought
the book yet and are making up their minds before they do. "Hey, I
loved this about the comic, but that also sucked, so depending on what
you're into...."
> I
> mean seriously ppl- the fandom has a bad enough image already- do we really
> wanna make it worse?
In whose eyes does this image exist? Who are we trying to impress?
So far, *you've* been one of the most unreasonably whiney people to
speak up. Almost every critique of the comic I've seen has been
rational and well-supported. By flailing about at the general target of
people-who-diss-DW, you've implicated all of us who've said *anything*
critical, which is why you're getting such a backlash now.
- Jackpot
Pyre
>
> Better a 'sheep' as you put it than a whiney, whinging, 'typical transfan'.
>
Thy is anything but, dude. If anyone is a "whiney, whinging (there's that
word you made up again) 'typical transfan'", it's you. All I've seen you
DO is whine, whine, whine and then spout nonsense like "y dnt u du b3t3r
d00d. trnsfns suxx0rs! LOL!"
Zobovor the Minotaur Hunter
>whinging (there's that word you made up again)
Jango Grip X
> Pyre wrote:
>
> >whinging (there's that word you made up again)
>
> http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=whinging
I'm impressed. Thanks to Andrew Richards and Zobovor, I now know a new word
to describe Transfans.
--
Jango Grip X - http://orioneos.home.sprynet.com/
Can't sleep. Clones will eat me. Can't sleep. Clones will eat me.
Can't sleep. Clones will eat me. Can't sleep. Clones will eat me.
Can't sleep. Clones will eat me. Can't sleep. Clones will eat me.
Pyre
> A whinger is someone who whinges.
> You do know what a whingeing is, right?
>
No, I don't. I seen people who whine. I've seen people who win. I've
seen people who drink wine. I've seen wings. But I've never ever seen
"whingeing" nor can I comprehend what it could be.
Pyre
>
> Who said anything about debating it- it was purely a case as I saw it for
> put the whinging, hypocritical, 'typical transfans' (woops- just realised
> that's a tortology) in their place.
>
I've yet to see you contribute anything to this group. If you like the
comic so much, why not tell us what you like about it instead of calling
everyone else names.
> A whinger is someone who just complains all the time- kinda reminds me of
> the fandom quite a bit.
>
Someone who complains all the time would be a complainer. I've never seen
any such word as "whinger". Perhaps you're thinking of "whiner"?
Aaron F. Bourque
>Well, my point still remains-
. . . nobody cares what your point is anymore. Y'know why? It's
because you're derailing all of the "typical fans" for doing
something they haven't, and by being louder and whinier than any
of the stuff you hold in such shame!
You claim the DW dislikers are hypocritical for honestly
expressing their opinions, and yet *you* are the one who is
hypocritical. You are the whiner. You are the bitcher. *You* are
the one that gets people sick.
>too bad all the'SUX posters' as they'd been described in a
>previous posts are sidestepping it, because they have no
>intention of being caught out by it.
. . .
Go point us to the whines and bitches. Go. Do it. Do it or
shut up about it, because if you can't prove it, it hasn't happened.
And if it hasn't happened, you made it up, and if you made it up,
you are no better than Deathy, and not worth listening to.
>The sad part is that I was expecting alt.toys.transformers to be
>mainly hypocritical, bratty, impossible to please transfans, who
>think they run the fandom, and overrate the fandoms importance
>in hasbro's grand scheme of things (the truth is that based on
>the last statistics I'm aware of, if every fan pulled out, they'd still
>have 70%-80% of their market)- the kind that give Transfans in
>general a bad name.
You know what the truly fucking sad thing is, you moron? *YOU
THINK YOU'RE SO GREAT*!
The intelligent members of the fandom know that we the adult
fandom are in the minority. The intelligent fans are also the ones
able to look beyond the pretty pictures that DW is putting out
there and can realize that THE DAMN BOOK IS NOT GOOD!
Pretty pictures do not a good comic book make.
>However I was willing to give this place a chance- too bad it
>seems, that I got exactly what I expected......
::grr::
No you did not give it a fucking chance, because if you had, you
would have *read* and *comprehended* what the posters were
saying. Instead, you see only what you want to see. Thus, I
and others are shocked at your stupid, ignorant, idiotic response.
Shut the fuck up. Grow the fuck up. Exercise your damn brain.
Then come back here and wave your damn dick in our faces.
Maybe then you'll be worth listening to.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR WHINGE!
DOUBLEDEALER IN 2004!
DEFCON NOW AND FOREVER!
--
http://delinquents.keenspace.com/d/20010703.html
Damn the tree and all its kind!
Nothing's impossible in the hot soul.
Hell damn crap fun!
Pyre
>
> I just wish people would either rationally and objectively give Dreamwave
> their feedback if they're not happy about the comic
People ARE doing that. I've yet to see you point to any specific post
where someone pointlessly bashed BW without giving in depth reasons as to
why they don't like the new comics. All I've seen you do spout useless
drivel like "y dnt u du b3t3r d00d."
Cyb
>Andrew Richards wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow.
>>> The rest of this thread is no longer necessary.
>>
>>Whigning, whiny 'bitch-posts' aren't either- doesn't stop 'typical
>>transfans' from making them.
>>
>
>Guess what? You are bitching. The fact that you're bitching about other people
>bitching doesn't make it any better.
Hehe, bitching about bitching about bitching. Yes, we are transfans!
- Cyb. And proud!
http://www.angelfire.com/apes/axalon
Cyb
<orio...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>Zobovor the Minotaur Hunter wrote...
>> Pyre wrote:
>>
>> >whinging (there's that word you made up again)
>>
>> http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=whinging
>
>I'm impressed. Thanks to Andrew Richards and Zobovor, I now know a new word
>to describe Transfans.
Yeah really. I say we change the name from Transfans to
Transwhingers.
- Cyb. Then I suppose Transfandom.com needs to change their domain to
Transwhingdom.com
http://www.angelfire.com/apes/axalon
Chris R Leazer
news:7cRC8.19287$cT2.1...@news-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> A few points if I may:
>
> - Most of us don't write for a living and have lives outside of
> Transformers.
> - I have seen better fanfics than this.
I have seen a few posts that say this, and I feel the need to respond.
I have read a number of fanfics (I skip a lot of them too-I'm sure
lots of people have read more than I have), and I have enjoyed
quite a fair number of them. However, I can't seem to think
of a single one of them that would make a good mass-market
comic book along the lines of what DW has given us.
DW wasn't trying to create a comic that would
pick up with G2 #13 or anything else aimed at die-hard Transformers
fans, they were trying to create something that would grab the
attention and the imagination of the average comic book buyer.
Sales numbers for issue #2 prove that they were successful.
Now like I said, I'm not as familiar with fanfics as a lot of you are,
so I would appreciate it if someone could point out a fanfic that
could accomplish what DW did in their first 2 issues.
Or rather, one that could do it even better. I would like
to read it.
> - If I'm not mistaken, Dreamwave won the rights to the comic based mostly
> on the fan opinion of their art. Not saying everyone likes it, most of us
> though, think that Pat Lee can draw some pretty kick ass artwork. It's
just
> a shame they can't write too well. I'm not saying the story is
necessarily
> BAD, but it could use a bit of work.
I am currently a "dReamwAve RoXX d00d" type of guy,
but that may change if the story doesn't pick up by issue 4.
Like a lot of people have mentioned, issues 1 and 2 could
easily have been combined into a single issue, but there's no
use in worrying about that now.
Its too bad Sarracini is so green. I'm sure he'll get better.
He shouldn't be working on something so big so soon.
Obviously, DW had no idea it would be this big. Oh well.
It's not like it's terrible or anything, it could just use a little
polishing.
It is better than a lot of comics I have read in my lifetime
(and believe me, I have read a lot).
Anybody who went into this expecting Dark Knight Returns or
Peter David's Hulk was just setting themselves up for disappointment.
I was expecting cool artwork and average writing, and that's
exactly what I got.
Don't you people remember the old Marvel comics?
This artwork is a lot better than the early-to-mid Marvel artwork.
Enough rambling for now.
I am looking forward to Furman's miniseries.
Thank you DW for bringing Furman in!
--
-cleazer
"Sky-Byte, that's me!"
Cyb
<skye_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>And even still, just because something's popular doesn't make it good.
Heh, truer words never spoken.
Cyb
wrote:
>No, it's because most of us didn't have access to USENET. I certainly
>noticed things like "Where doesn't Prime's trailer go?" and "Why does
>Starscream have 97 parts to be lost, why couldn't they have designed it
>so everything had a place to go?"
Heh, yeah I always wondered about Prime's trailer when I was a kid.
Actually, whenever I played with my PM Prime I always hid the trailer
when he was in robot mode (well, after I lost the PM head anyways,
before that I made him into super brick Ginrai!) for show accuracy or
something. Not that I was overly show accurate. Hot Rod was played
by some orange Go-Bot, and Jazz was a blue Sparkabot (forget his
name). Also the micromasters got renamed into show characters for the
toys I lacked, so I even had my own size scale issues! A good time
was had by all. Never had a Megatron though, not until I got the G1
tank. So sad to think I sold him a few years back on eBay before I
got back into TFs. Sometimes, at night, I can still hear him.
"CLICK-COK! MEGATRON ATTACK!" *sniff*
>And don't get me started on what I would have said about the movie when
>it came out, once I recovered enough to be able to speak again.
Heh, the movie never really bugged me as a kid, and it doesn't even
bug me that much now. I think it could have been a hell of a lot
better, but it also could have been worse (need I point out 'The
Ultimate Doom' heh).
>On the other hand, I would have posted a lot of great things about it
>too. GI JOE, on the other hand, I would have ripped into a lot more.
>It really annoyed me that they *always* had to show a little parachute
>so we'd know nobody got killed when their *plane exploded*.
Eh, I never really watched GI Joe. I dunno why, I feel so left out
sometimes when people talk about it and I'm like 'uh, I didn't watch
GI Joe'. I watched Thunder Cats and He-Man and Voltron and TFs of
course, but I don't recall ever watching an episode of GI Joe. I
guess shows about real people weren't my style. Hey cool I had a
style! I wonder where it went...
>It is true, I didn't notice as *many* faults as a kid. But I was
>already quite a nitpicker, even then.
Ahh, the makings of a true Transfan. It was destined to be, you see.
Andrew Richards
Chris R Leazer <CLE...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:HT2D8.3077$0x3.64...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Thanks, cleazer, couldn't have put it better myself. I agree, it needs
work, especially with Pat Lee's drawing of humans, who are a little on the
'robotic' side, no pun intended. As far as everything else goes, I think
Dreamwave are doing a great job- storywise I think the pace is perfect,
giving us just enough info to keep us on the edge of our seats without
confusing us- just like tyhe start of a story should (things look like
they're about to go into 'steamroller mode' soon). Then there's the
subplots which are developing (this journey of Spike's should prove to be an
interesting one) and the Megatron plot hasn't disappointed me in the
slightest- can't wait to see when the others get set off either (in fact is
suspect the sight and sound of a free Megatron will do just that). Artwise,
it's brilliant, with everything flowing nicely, and with incredible detail-
all the TFs just look so alive.
All in all I can't wait til issue 3 :).
Andrew Richards
Cyb <c...@nospam.frad.org> wrote in message
news:3cdcb8f6...@news.rcn.com...
> On 11 May 2002 03:20:48 GMT, jask...@aol.com (Paul Segal) wrote:
>
> >Andrew Richards wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Wow.
> >>> The rest of this thread is no longer necessary.
> >>
> >>Whigning, whiny 'bitch-posts' aren't either- doesn't stop 'typical
> >>transfans' from making them.
> >>
> >
> >Guess what? You are bitching. The fact that you're bitching about other
people
> >bitching doesn't make it any better.
>
> Hehe, bitching about bitching about bitching. Yes, we are transfans!
>
Paul Segal
>
>On 11 May 2002 03:20:48 GMT, jask...@aol.com (Paul Segal) wrote:
>
>>Andrew Richards wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wow.
>>>> The rest of this thread is no longer necessary.
>>>
>>>Whigning, whiny 'bitch-posts' aren't either- doesn't stop 'typical
>>>transfans' from making them.
>>>
>>
>>Guess what? You are bitching. The fact that you're bitching about other
>people
>>bitching doesn't make it any better.
>
>Hehe, bitching about bitching about bitching. Yes, we are transfans!
I tried not to... tried so hard not to join this discussion. I couldn't resist,
though. My apologies.
M Sipher
news:3CDC1614...@hotmail.com...
> Avias wrote:
>
> > For the record, the majority of the negative opinions on the Dreamwave
> > comics that *I've* read have been *more* than validated. Nice big posts
> > where the authors do as much as they can to point out the book's
> > perceived failings on both technical and emotional levels. Their views
> > on the artwork, writing, plot, and all the variant covers are *quite*
> > well outlined at this point. On the other hand, the vast majority of the
> > positive opinions put forth run along the lines of 'Pat Lee ROXXORS!'
> > 'It's Transformers and it's better than nothing,' and the always popular
> > 'I love this, how can you possibly not like it, it's the best thing
> > ever!' Really, you'd think people would try harder.
>
> I agree completely, Avi.
Had to keep this quoted, because yes, I am in total agreement.
> It's rather interesting how reversed this is
> from the normal trend. With every other new element of Transformerdom,
> I would've agreed more with the post that started this thread. Usually
> there IS a huge influx of "SUXXORS" voices that batters away at the
> heart of the NG. However, this time around.... I'm not seeing it. The
> force of nostalgia seems to be outweighing the usual force of resistance
> within the ranks of Transfan idiocy.
Kind of horrifying, isn't it? I mean... we all knew nostalgia was powerful.
But now we have a nice huge illustration to point to as to just HOW powerful
it is.
Scary.
> As for me, I openly criticize, but I also praise. I calls it like I
> sees it.
There's bits to the DW comic I like. Though most of it is art, honestly, and
mostly only on a technical level.
I mean, above all else, I value CHARACTER in my fictions, both in terms of
art and story. Those TFs who DO have normal faces so far have been shown,
for the most part, with very nuetral expressions, or generic
"uuuuuuuuhhhhh!" action-faces. For those who DON'T have normal faces...
well, that's where writing comes in.
I've not seen either Lee or Chris deliver on that score.
Raiz, however... mmmm. MUCH better visual storyteller than Lee. I am VERY
anxious for Armada. The short story in the preview book to me was FAR more
entertaining than Neo-G1 has been on the whole.
In fact, I have a hard time accepting that Chris is also the Armada writer.
Maybe Hasbro mandated Armada be more action-oriented and kid-accessable.
> It's off to a rough
> start, but DW seems genuinely passionate to me.
Yes, but I do question what exactly the passion is FOR. I mean, most of what
I've seen out of DW is a passion for taking these childhood toys and making
them impressive to the mid-20s crowd by setting them in a darker story and
making them look huge and "hyper-real".
I'm not exactly sensing a passion for what made TFs something... more...
namely, again, CHARACTER.
> Or I could shut my mouth because I don't worship with enough fervor,
> which is apparently what several fans want from this NG.
DW will get my worship when they've done something I feel earns it. Armada
looks like it might. That supposed new TFU would certainly make me happy,
though that smells to me of "overambitious project announcement that may
never be finished"... and on that score, I think I know what I'm talking
about.
M "Phoenix War" Sipher
argus
allthough the art itself is OK, I'm not a big fan of the new toy
orientated look.
Argus .. glad Megatron still doesn't look all that much like that toy ;)
Jack & Co.
Pyre wrote:
> Jandaru wrote:
>
> > A whinger is someone who whinges.
> > You do know what a whingeing is, right?
> >
>
> No, I don't. I seen people who whine. I've seen people who win. I've
> seen people who drink wine. I've seen wings. But I've never ever seen
> "whingeing" nor can I comprehend what it could be.
It pretty much meens the same thing.
Octavulg
Avias
> I can't personally comment
> on the writing of the new comics, as I'm not a big comic book fan and haven't
> gotten one yet, but it can't be *too* bad with the way the books seem to be
> flying out of the comic shops.
Rob Liefeld-scribed comic books sold extremely well in the mid-90's.
Avias
That says it all right there, really.
Avias
> Seriously though, other than a few malcontent completists, I don't
> think anyone has complained about the multiple covers and all the
> lithographs and everything. You get to choose what cover you want on
> your comic. Woo-hoo. Or if you have some kind of sick compulsion, you
> can buy all of them. Or start washing your hands every 20 minutes.
Personally, I don't like the mulitple covers because it reminds me far
too much of the bad old days, back in the mid-90's. Y'know, back when
being a halfway decent artist gave you enough clout to start your own
company, helium-titted amazons ruled the shelves, and decent writing was
completely optional to the success of a book. And need I even mention
the Spider-Clone? *Shudder.* A lot of what DW's been doing would've been
commonplace back then.
> Gustavo (who likes compulsive hand-washers, because they're clean)
But it just doesn't get you dates.
Avias
I think I'll dig out some of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. That'll make me
feel better.
Avias
<Snip!>
> I just wish people would either rationally and objectively give Dreamwave
> their feedback if they're not happy about the comic, or try to outdo them by
> doing one themselves (and ppl, don't give me the 'there are better fanfics
> around' copout because A) did you write them? and B) are they comics?)
...
What the hell does that have to do with the price of beef?
Really, this is... (counts) The eighth stupidest 'argument' I've seen on
ATT. I don't make my own ice cream, therefor I'm not qualified to say
that Breyer's Cherry Chocolate Chip tastes like ass? I didn't write the
Vertigo Sandman book, so I can't point to it as an example of infinitely
better comic writing than anything in Dreamwave's G1 book could ever
hope to be? Hells, let's extrapolte this 'argument' even further. Since
you have yet to make any posts critical of the DW comic, you have no
right to critisise anyone else's posts on same. Ecco homo, ergo elk.
>I
> mean seriously ppl- the fandom has a bad enough image already- do we really
> wanna make it worse?
It's a hobby, not a freaking popularity contest. If you're concerened
about your image, what the heck are you doing in a newsgroup devoted to
a children's toyline?
Avias
Ergo.
Stranger
news:abiob7$dvv$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> I mean, above all else, I value CHARACTER in my fictions, both in terms of
> art and story. Those TFs who DO have normal faces so far have been shown,
> for the most part, with very nuetral expressions, or generic
> "uuuuuuuuhhhhh!" action-faces. For those who DON'T have normal faces...
> well, that's where writing comes in.
I haven't really noticed anything to complain about as far as the faces go,
however I did think that Pat's drawing of Bumblebee was a homerun. Yuu
could really see how sad Bumblebee was being forced to attack the humans,
just by looking at his face.
--
Stranger- Impulse's #1 fan, next to Max of course.
Paul Segal
>
>I think I'll dig out some of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. That'll make me
>feel better.
>
Alan Moore is an excellent salve for contemporary comic-related blues.
The poster formerly known as "Contrary to popular belief Craig Little's mother wasn't a hamster, though his father did have a faint whiff of elderberries when the Spanish Inquisition unexpectedly abducted him." now going for an even longer Usenet handle!!
"Paul Segal" <jask...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020511164105...@mb-ml.aol.com...
> Avias wrote:
> >
> >I think I'll dig out some of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. That'll make me
> >feel better.
> >
>
> Alan Moore is an excellent salve for contemporary comic-related blues.
>
*picks up Dark Knight Returns TPB*
Thylacine 2000
> >>
> >> Dreamwave Comics had a farm, E-I-E-I-O!
> >
> >Better a 'sheep' as you put it than a whiney, whinging, 'typical transfan'.
>
> Ugh, so now is this an argument over whether it's better to be a blind,
> mindless hater or a blind, mindless advocate?
Is this an argument, period? I thought Andrew was just trolling.
But then, since I don't love Dreamwave, I am retarded. So what do I know? :p
Chris McFeely
Where's an elk? Where?
Andrew Richards
Avias <avs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3CDD36...@yahoo.com...
> Andrew Richards wrote:
> <Snip!>
> > I just wish people would either rationally and objectively give
Dreamwave
> > their feedback if they're not happy about the comic, or try to outdo
them by
> > doing one themselves (and ppl, don't give me the 'there are better
fanfics
> > around' copout because A) did you write them? and B) are they comics?)
>
> ...
>
> What the hell does that have to do with the price of beef?
>
> Really, this is... (counts) The eighth stupidest 'argument' I've seen on
> ATT. I don't make my own ice cream, therefor I'm not qualified to say
> that Breyer's Cherry Chocolate Chip tastes like ass? I didn't write the
> Vertigo Sandman book, so I can't point to it as an example of infinitely
> better comic writing than anything in Dreamwave's G1 book could ever
> hope to be? Hells, let's extrapolte this 'argument' even further. Since
> you have yet to make any posts critical of the DW comic, you have no
> right to critisise anyone else's posts on same. Ecco homo, ergo elk.
8 and a half hrs before you made this post- seriously, if you're gonna
attack someone, at least get ur information right. Unless you mean the fact
that i didn't make a post that was overly negative about it with judgements
as oposed to opinions *(which is is exactly what some reviewers have been
saying) and HELL YEAH if people r gonna pass judgements rather than state
opinions- then you can bet ur life i'm gonna call them on it- cause people
passing judgements (i.e it sux) while having nothing to prove that they're
in a position to fairly make that judgement, makes them look like a BLOODY
HYPOCRITE! Iand if there's one thing I can't stand it's hypocrites. And for
some of those people who have attacked my knowledge of the english language-
at least I know the difference between subjective and objective language.
>>I mean seriously ppl- the fandom has a bad enough image already- do we
really
> > wanna make it worse?
>
> It's a hobby, not a freaking popularity contest. If you're concerened
> about your image, what the heck are you doing in a newsgroup devoted to
> a children's toyline?
True, but it's gonna get to the stage where noone is gonna be too keen to do
anything official TF related because of the reputation of the average
transfan. To answer that one I came because I heard things had improved
(after deciding 'not to touch this place with a 10 foot barge pole' a while
back). Maybe I should have stayed with my original decision.....
Desperado00
>>Ecco homo, ergo elk.
>
>Where's an elk? Where?
Um...I accidentally ran over him yesterday. I felt bad about it, but the guy
was wearing a leissure suit, so really he had it coming. :) (OLD Bob & Tom
joke, not to be taken seriously.)
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Suspsy
> I just wish people would either rationally and objectively give Dreamwave
> their feedback if they're not happy about the comic, or try to outdo them
by
> doing one themselves (and ppl, don't give me the 'there are better fanfics
> around' copout because A) did you write them? and B) are they comics?) I
> mean seriously ppl- the fandom has a bad enough image already- do we
really
> wanna make it worse?
As someone who has spoken out against premature condemnation of the Armada
toyline, I can understand where you're coming from--to a point.
I'm all for sampling before judging---read the book, play with the toy,
watch the show, THEN make your personal final decision on whether or not you
feel that it rules or bites. Of course, that doesn't much help those fans
who can't be satisfied, period, but what're you gonna do?
Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, I really don't care for your blanket statement that people
aren't being rational and objective in their critiques of the comic. It's
insulting to anyone who takes the time and care to be civil and concise in
their criticism and refrain from trollish behaviour like "d00d tHis comci
SUKKS!" The aim, after all, is to offer advice that DW will hopefully take
under consideration, not to insult them with moronic slander. And frankly,
I've seen much more criticism than slander around here thus far.
My main beefs are as follows: slow pacing, human characters who resemble
clones of one another, an all too predictable and cliched plot, and the fact
that so far we've only seen two TFs who are actually awake and in
control(Prime and Megatron), and they haven't really shown much trace of the
characters which made them so popular in the first place. Meggy's little
speech about humans not being in control was nice, but could've been made by
any Decepticon.
As others in this thread have already pointed out, DW seems more intent on
making the TFs look cool and imposing than on making them out to be the same
living, feeling robotic beings who captured many of our hearts eighteen
years ago. They're like Gundams, except without annoying macho human pilots.
That's not what TFs are all about.
Again, I realize that you're frustrated, and to an extent I can see why you
would be, but you've done a lousy job of expressing that frustration. You've
insulted me and everyone else on this newsgroup with brash statements like
how we're a bunch of "hypocritical, bratty, impossible to please transfans,
who think they run the fandom, and overrate the fandoms importance in
hasbro's grand scheme of things." Do you honestly think that people are
going to listen to you when you insult them out of the blue?
Susp
"Words can cut deeper than steel." -Freeway
Thylacine 2000
>> Hells, let's extrapolte this 'argument' even further. Since
> > you have yet to make any posts critical of the DW comic, you have no
> > right to critisise anyone else's posts on same. Ecco homo, ergo elk.
> I seriously suggest you recheck the messageboard-
Oy. *Another* one who tries to come here and tell us our business
without even knowing what kind of forum he's on.
> Unless you mean the fact
> that i didn't make a post that was overly negative about it with judgements
> as oposed to opinions *(which is is exactly what some reviewers have been
> saying) and HELL YEAH if people r gonna pass judgements rather than state
> opinions- then you can bet ur life i'm gonna call them on it- cause people
> passing judgements (i.e it sux) while having nothing to prove that they're
> in a position to fairly make that judgement, makes them look like a BLOODY
> HYPOCRITE!
Humbug.
Please, post links to these swarms of ATT messages wherein people just
post "IT SUX IT SUX IT SUX IT SUX!!!!!!!!" about DWG1.
Because I have never seen such a thing, and I sure am not going to
take *your* word for their alleged existence. All the DWG1 criticisms
that I have read (and written) on ATT have been clearly couched as
fair statements of opinion, and they all struck me as more or less
level-headed and appropriate for the subject matter at hand.
Maybe there were some I missed, though. Stranger things have
happened.
So kindly do post proof of this slavering mania that you say infests
us.
> And for
> some of those people who have attacked my knowledge of the english language-
> at least I know the difference between subjective and objective language.
Oh, good. I'd hate to think that you go around libeling those who
disagree with you as retarded brats without actually knowing you are
doing it.
Andrew Richards
> post "IT SUX IT SUX IT SUX IT SUX!!!!!!!!" about DWG1.
>
> Because I have never seen such a thing, and I sure am not going to
> take *your* word for their alleged existence. All the DWG1 criticisms
> that I have read (and written) on ATT have been clearly couched as
> fair statements of opinion, and they all struck me as more or less
> level-headed and appropriate for the subject matter at hand.
attacked the writing of the comic calling it lame with practically nothing
to back it up- which comes across purley as bitching. If you missed that
you mustn't have been looking very hard.
As I said in a previous post, I'm sick of all the bitching- Beast Wars:
*bitch, bitch, bitch*; Beast Machines: *bitch,bitch,bitch*; RiD:
*bitch,bitch,bitch*; Armada: *bitch,bitch, bitch*; and so the list goes
on..... I'm pretty sure that the reason why so many people are reacting in
the oposite trend to normal is that alot of fans are sick and tired of the
bitching that's been standard practise for years with the fandom- and I
think that this is pretty much the backlash from it....
Pyre
>
> I suggest you look at the 'So the TFs are thundercats?' thread then. e
> attacked the writing of the comic calling it lame with practically nothing
> to back it up- which comes across purley as bitching.
ONE post by ONE person all of a sudden makes ALL of us whiners and
bitchers? Ok......
Pyre
>
> As I said in a previous post, I'm sick of all the bitching-
Then please stop doing so.
Thylacine 2000
> > Please, post links to these swarms of ATT messages wherein people just
> > post "IT SUX IT SUX IT SUX IT SUX!!!!!!!!" about DWG1.
> >
> I suggest you look at the 'So the TFs are thundercats?' thread then. e
> attacked the writing of the comic calling it lame with practically nothing
> to back it up- which comes across purley as bitching. If you missed that
> you mustn't have been looking very hard.
As it happens, this "e" guy's post sure does look inflammatory. He
decries the comic as "lame," with no real attempt to explain why he
feels that way. Tsk.
A calm, logically-worded reply that defended DWG1 would have been
appropriate.
By contrast, your responses smearing everybody here who dares raise a
question against DW as being deluded halfwits were totally
inappropriate.
> As I said in a previous post, I'm sick of all the bitching-
No problem with your message; it's the *presentation* you really need
to work on.
> alot of fans are sick and tired of the
> bitching that's been standard practise for years with the fandom- and I
> think that this is pretty much the backlash from it....
"This"? What's "this"? All I see are, by-and-large, rational people
having fair discussions about comic books.... and then you suddenly
jumping in and announcing that everybody on one perspective of that
discussion is a mental defective.
This isn't a backlash--it's just spite. And we don't need either.
Jackpot
> I agree, it needs
> work, especially with Pat Lee's drawing of humans, who are a little on the
> 'robotic' side, no pun intended. As far as everything else goes, I think
> Dreamwave are doing a great job- storywise I think the pace is perfect,
> giving us just enough info to keep us on the edge of our seats without
> confusing us- just like tyhe start of a story should (things look like
> they're about to go into 'steamroller mode' soon). Then there's the
> subplots which are developing (this journey of Spike's should prove to be an
> interesting one) and the Megatron plot hasn't disappointed me in the
> slightest- can't wait to see when the others get set off either (in fact is
> suspect the sight and sound of a free Megatron will do just that). Artwise,
> it's brilliant, with everything flowing nicely, and with incredible detail-
> all the TFs just look so alive.
>
> All in all I can't wait til issue 3 :).
And *that's* how to write a respectable post. Thank you.
Hopefully this means you're catching on. Candle-lighting and
darkness-cursing and all that.
- Jackpot
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
Aaron F. Bourque
<<Thy2000 said:>>
Yeah. In other words, there was no bitching.
Or at least, not to the extent you claimed.
Go 'way, now, son; git outta here, y'bother me.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; there's a difference between
"bitching" and "criticism." Learn the difference before you come
back.
--
http://delinquents.keenspace.com/d/20010703.html
Damn the tree and all its kind!
Nothing's impossible in the hot soul.
Hell damn crap fun!
Paul Segal
>
>Candle-lighting and darkness-cursing and all that.
You've obviously alluding to some aphorism here, "better to light a candle than
to curse the darkness", or something, but I'm not familiar with it (except
vague recognition in the back of my mind)... what's the phrase, and where's it
from? Just curious.
Jackpot
> Jackpot wrote:
>
>>Candle-lighting and darkness-cursing and all that.
>
> You've obviously alluding to some aphorism here, "better to light a candle than
> to curse the darkness",
That's the one. I don't know its source, but I've always taken it to
mean that the bad in the world is dispelled not by merely decrying it,
but by doing acts of good.
e
angle is the reason why I think the story is lame. That should be
reason enough. If you read my replies back to you, I elaborated "if
you have a serious story then suddenly you bring up something so
cheesy as the thundercats trademark" the whole mood of the story just
goes from serious to cheesy along with it. Quit bringing this topic
up. You are just prolonging this war. It seems to me you are the
biggest whiner of them all.
Pyre <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message news:<3CDEB863...@crosswinds.net>...
ShadowWing
Suspsy wrote
>
>Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, I really don't care for your blanket statement that
>people aren't being rational and objective in their critiques of the
>comic. It's insulting to anyone who takes the time and care to be civil
>and concise in their criticism and refrain from trollish behaviour like
>"d00d tHis comci SUKKS!" The aim, after all, is to offer advice that DW
>will hopefully take under consideration, not to insult them with moronic
>slander. And frankly, I've seen much more criticism than slander around
>here thus far.
Same here, although I don't always agree with the critics. Most of them,
though, have given actual reasons for why they don't like the Dreamwave
series thus far. There were some back when we were first getting the artwork
and the preview, but most of the current complaints are actually based on
something, usually one's personal preferences. Sure we have some unreasoned
and insulting "this sucks and how dare you support it" and the required
respondants (required by who is beyond me) with "hey, be glad we have one,
dumb@$$, keep complaining and we won't have squat!" answer. But it's not as
bad as the "technorganic flame war" from the Beast Machines years.
>My main beefs are as follows: slow pacing, human characters who resemble
>clones of one another, an all too predictable and cliched plot, and the
>fact that so far we've only seen two TFs who are actually awake and in
>control(Prime and Megatron), and they haven't really shown much trace of
>the characters which made them so popular in the first place.
Not seeing the characters being characters at least fits the story. I do
agree to some degree on the cliches. As much as I can ignore the Mighty
Magic Matrix, it's still fitting its role as the Ultimate Plot Device, which
isn't always the best thing. (And may respark the "did Prime have the Matrix
all along" debates, which in itself is a bad thing.) "Lazarus" as a name is
cute yet overused. (Besides, the "original" Lazarus (in the Gospels) didn't
raise anyone--Jesus did the resurrecting.) Let me dip into the "Adult Swim"
comparison and say that the humans come off as having the look of Pilot
Canidate and the emotional response of Cowboy Bebop. (Which fuels my wish
that Xebec was actually doing the Armada series--between Canidate and Zoids,
at least the people would look cool and it is pretty close to Dreamwave's
art style for Transformers.) Not a bad thing in itself, but sometimes it
could come together a little better.
Still, I have no trouble with the pace right now, since it seems to
resemble a lot of manga I've read--and happened to like, the art is still
good, and at the least everything makes more sense than some other stories
I've read.
>Meggy's little speech about humans not being in control was nice, but
>could've been made by any Decepticon.
I don't know about that. I really don't see any version of Starscream
I've seen really able to pull that off with the same...what's the word I
want...manner? inflection? (is that even a word?)...that Megatron put into
it. It just seems more vicious maybe? Maybe comic Shockwave could have
pulled it off, but it just seems perfect to come from *this* Megatron.
>As others in this thread have already pointed out, DW seems more intent
>on making the TFs look cool and imposing than on making them out to be
>the same living, feeling robotic beings who captured many of our hearts
>eighteen years ago. They're like Gundams, except without annoying macho
>human pilots. That's not what TFs are all about.
It may seem that way, but I'm not sure we have seen enough yet to see
how the Transformers are going to be handled. They only just made it into
the show. #1 was about what took place before this story arc. Issue #2 was
about the Transformers actual comeback, while Issue #3 seems to be about
actual events and how they led to the TFU being what it is "today". Seems to
be working OK to me. There is at least a method to the madness.
>Again, I realize that you're frustrated, and to an extent I can see why
>you would be, but you've done a lousy job of expressing that frustration.
>You've insulted me and everyone else on this newsgroup with brash
>statements like how we're a bunch of "hypocritical, bratty, impossible to
>please transfans, who think they run the fandom, and overrate the fandoms
>importance in hasbro's grand scheme of things."
Let's face it, that may or may not be the majority thinking, but there
are a few of those out there, and they do tend to be quite vocal. Sometimes,
though, it's the very people who complain about these types that are
themselves that type for their side of the debate.
>Do you honestly think that people are going to listen to you when you
>insult them out of the blue?
Right! Insult them out of the pink, and you'll do better. :) I've seen
more debate and criticism than actual "dreawave sux, dood" posts. I don't
think anyone hates Dreamwave, but they do have things they don't appreciate.
Until Chris and Pat are the subject of death threats (like Mr. Skir or the
guy that killed off Chewbacca in the novels), I'm not too worried. Everyone
is entitled to their own tastes. My view is if they don't like, more comics
for the rest of us. :)
______________________________________________
| HEROIC AUTOBOT ^ ^ {ShadowWing} |
| AMONG MAXIMALS |()| { transfan} |
| [CYBERTRON] \/ Ż||Ż||Ż||ŻŻ |
|ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Ż Ż ŻŻŻŻŻŻ|
|Function: /\ /\ str: 7.0|
|Guardian / \ ()/ \ int: 8.5|
|Motto:"One's true / /\ o[]o/\ \ spd: 9.0|
|form lies within." / ——o—[]—o—— \ end: 7.0|
|Survivor of every / / / 00 \ \ \rnk: 6.0|
|Transformer war. 00 cor:10.0|
|More information on line ^^ fire:5.4|
|Visit THE TRANSFORMATION ZONE skl: 9.2|
|http://pages.cthome.net/ShadowWing |
|last updated on 4/1/2001 AD |
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ