So, Who Drew the Box Art?

[Zobovor]

Is there any information out there about the names of the artists who
actually created the illustrations for the G1 Transformers packaging?

I know that Jeff Mangiat and Richard Marcej both did battle scenes for
the back of the packaging (and also did the portraits for the original
Optimus Prime and Powermaster Optimus Prime, respectively), but I'd
really like to be able to assign more names to the packaging art. I'm
specifically curious to know which portraits were created by the same
people, though there are telltale signs of an artist's style in the
drawings (i.e., the guy who did Wheeljack's portrait very clearly did
Inferno's as well; I'm sure Rumble's artwork was Jeff Mangiat since it
has a look and feel that matches his illustrations for Mirage and
Starscream).

I've found a couple of references online to Hidetsugu Yoshioka, a
Japanese artist who was "most likely" responsible for some of the late-
run G1 art, but this does me very little good if he can't be tied to
specific works of art.

So, anyway. Anybody got any ideas?


Zob

[Onslaught Six]

A good lot of the Autobots came straight from Diaclone with little to
no alteration. Blue Bluestreak didn't happen because Bluestreak was
going to be blue (well, that might have something to do with it) but
because they were reusing Diaclone artwork that already existed.

The thing is, there's a very specific subsection of the Diaclone toys
that actually had painted box art; a good half or so of them simply
had photos of the toy. At some point the paintings became cost-
prohibitive and were replaced by the photos, and then I think at some
point they were then re-instated when the budget got big again. You
can actually sort of piece together a chronology of Diaclone releases
from the box art alone (along with other factors)...and someone has
already done that:
http://www.tf-1.com/articles/pretf/prod_template.html

From this webpage, here's a rough listing of the release order of the
original Diaclone toyline along with what toys had a photo
representation and which got painted box art. (It's using Transformers
names as a shorthand; they obviously weren't released in Diaclone
under these names, and certainly not with names like "Red Sunstreaker"
or "Black Ironhide.")

No.1 Red Sunstreaker - [PHOTO]
No.2 Black Ironhide - [PHOTO]
No.3 Police Sunstreaker - [PHOTO]
No.4 Ratchet - [PHOTO]
No.5 Trailbreaker - [ART]
No.6 Honda City R/S - [ART]
No.7 Bluestreak - [ART]
No.8 Red Hoist - [ART]
No.9 Skids - [ART]
Blue Hoist/Silver Honda City S Doubleset - [ART]
No.10 Inferno - [ART]
No.11 Smokescreen - [ART]
No.12 Hound - [ART]
No.13 Prowl - [ART]
No.14 Jazz - [PHOTO]
No.15 Sideswipe - [PHOTO]
No.16 Mirage - [PHOTO]
No.17 Optimus Prime - [PHOTO]
No.18 Wheeljack - [ART]
No.19 Police Sideswipe - [PHOTO]
(DC)No.1 Camshaft - [ART]
(DC)No.2 Overdrive - [ART]
(DC)No.3 Downshift - [ART]
No.20 Grapple - [PHOTO]
No.21 Red Tracks - [ART]
Powered Convoy (regular and chrome) - [ART]
Powered Convoy DX set - [ART]

So this is the list narrowed down entirely to just guys who were
released as Transformers (in most forms) and had painted box art:

Trailbreaker
Bluestreak
Red Hoist
Skids
Inferno
Smokescreen
Hound
Prowl
Wheeljack
Camshaft
Overdrive
Downshift
Red Tracks
Powered Convoy

Even though some of these are "variant" colour schemes, they were
still, in some cases, reused for the TF release. Red Hoist was
recoloured and altered slightly to become the regular green Hoist we
all know, for example. (Diaclone's Red Hoist has a driver visible in
the windshield, for example.) These kind of minor changes are all over
the box art. Smokescreen, for example, was reused, but the Diaclone
box art had "DATSUN" markings and a few minor colour differences--and
obviously, things like Autobot/Decepticon symbols were added where
applicable. The Omnibots didn't have "proper" box art, but it has
popped up in some secondary sources; it's just the Diaclone box art
reused like normal. Powered Convoy had much different art than Ultra
Magnus (and IMO much better) so I'll remove him from the list. Red
Tracks did indeed become Tracks, however; it seems that by 1985 Hasbro
was much more willing to alter the box art, as evidenced by the
variant Shockwave boxes and the altered Tracks and Hoist boxart, plus
others like the Dinobots and Constructicons (more later). The
unaltered Red Tracks boxart was reused for the Red Tracks eHobby toy--
Road Rage, wasn't it?

This list also doesn't include other Diaclone toys like the
Constructicons, Insecticons, Dinobots and Seekers (Jetrobo), nor the
Microchange toys that became most of the Decepticons. I'll go into
these individually...

Starscream and Thundercracker are ganked wholesale from the Diaclone
box art. Thundy's pose was altered slightly so that he's less spread-
legged. (Honestly I think I prefer the Diaclone box art for him; he's
more dynamic and looks like he's about to pounce on an enemy.) Skywarp
didn't have a Diaclone release so his box art is a Transformers
invention.

The Diaclone Insecticons also had box art; this was similarly
recoloured for their Transformers release. The Diaclone box art was
reused for the eHobby "Insecticon Clones" reissue, which was just the
Diaclone colours.

I'm only doing a cursory Google search to confirm most of these, and I
couldn't quickly find any Japanese Diaclone Dinobots in-box, but I did
find some Italian GiG releases which tended to reuse the box art from
the Japanese releases; they're identical to the Transformers releases
except for colour differences.

The Constructicons also had box art, but it was obviously multi-
coloured to reflect their toys. Devastator's box art also comes from a
giftset, shown front-and-center. (I could only find one tiny pic of
it, but it's enough to verify.)

Onto the Microchange toys...it doesn't appear that most of the
Microchange toys that became the Minibots had box art; certainly not
Bumblebee, which must mean that the sticker shown on his robot mode
chest in his box art was going to be there at some point during the
Transformers phase. (Zob, you'll know more than I do about it;
Bumblebees aren't my specialty.) There were several different releases
of the Minibot predecessors, but they all appeared to only have photos
on the boxes; no box art.

The cassettes, though! Ravage, Laserbeak and Toy Frenzy (the blue one,
for argument's sake) had box art derived from Microchange; they were
actually all released in a box set together as well as individually.
Buzzsaw's box art is simply a recolour of Laserbeak's. Soundwave's box
art is straight-up Diaclone, but I don't know where Rumble (red
robot)'s box art came from. It's possible it was a Transformers
invention. I also don't know at what point the change was made to have
Soundwave's gun arm lowered, as opposed to pointing out further, but
it may have been 1985, when altering the box art was getting more
ambitious and more of an attempt was being made to show off the toy
itself as opposed to the artwork. (This is around the same time the
grey/silver "border" started showing up, right?)

Megatron's box art--both of them!--is also from his Microchange
release. Nothing new there.

So it might be better, instead, to list all of the 84/85 characters
who had no Diaclone/Microchange box art. I'm going to exclude anyone
who obviously wouldn't have art like the 1985 Minibots and the non-
Takara toys (Jetfire et al), mostly because it's obvious they were
done as part of another "batch."

Brawn
Bumblebee
Cliffjumper
Gears
Huffer
Ironhide
Ratchet
Jazz
Mirage
Optimus Prime
Sunstreaker
Windcharger
Skywarp
Rumble (Maybe)

Blaster (Had Microman box art, but it was radically different)
Grapple
Perceptor (Questionable--I couldn't find any pictures of Microchange
Perceptor's box art, if he had any)
Astrotrain (questionable--see Perceptor)
Blitzwing (see Perceptor)

There might be a few others, too, who didn't have an equivalent but I
didn't include them because this is getting unweildy.

I think the fact is you can probably separate them into groups of
Dudes Who Had Diaclone/Microchange Box Art and Dudes Who Didn't, and
then segment those guys and see who "seems" like they were done by the
same person. For example, a lot of the non-Diaclone Boxart 1984 guys
have a similar "one leg raised" pose, like Mirage and Rumble.

In fact, Rumble and Mirage could have been done by the same guy--even
Jeff Mangiat--but unless Jeff Mangiat was working for Takara in 1980,
there's no way he could have drawn Starscream's box art...

So I did a little more digging. (Man, this post is huge!)

Here's an interview with Jeff Mangiat, where he fesses up to, in fact,
drawing Optimus Prime, Jazz, Mirage and others. (He mentions "some of
the jets" but I'd be willing to bet these were 2nd gen guys like
Ramjet and Dirge; possibly Skywarp as well, and those weird Takara
half-repaint Seeker guys who are just Starscream, Skywarp etc. with
the Conehead wings.) He claims he worked on them "up until they
switched production back to Asia and the animation houses," which
says, to me, up until the back half of the series in 1987-88 or so.
http://tformers.com/transformers-interview-world-renowned-illustrator-jeff-mangiat-talks-g1-transformers/12545/news.html

Optimus Prime is a curious case, though, since his Japanese original
release had different box art. (Check it out on Botch's site.) It's
weird because the Japanese Convoy drawing is clearly an entirely
different drawing, not just a slight alteration! Mangiat's is clearly
entirely derived from the toy (down to being in a pose the toy can
actually do) and has some of his tell-tale bits (You can tell his
hands, because they always have a ton more segments than most of the
clearly-Japanese drawings. Perhaps Takara didn't like Mangiat's
Optimus Prime for some reason, and had one of their in-house guys do
their own version.) Interestingly, the Convoy drawing seems to have
been drawn with the Autobot symbols in mind, while Mangiat's Optimus
Prime seems like they were slapped on by a different artist...

I'm tempted to say that all the non-Diaclone art for 1984 & 1985 was
Mangiat, with Richard Marcej doing most of the 1986-1988 art. So...I
dunno!

But a good bunch of them are Diaclone art.

[Zobovor]

On Mar 7, 11:02 am, Onslaught Six <onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

This is an amazing response. Thank you for taking the time to write
it.

> A good lot of the Autobots came straight from Diaclone with little to
> no alteration. Blue Bluestreak didn't happen because Bluestreak was
> going to be blue (well, that might have something to do with it) but
> because they were reusing Diaclone artwork that already existed.

They tweaked a lot of the Diaclone art when they knew there were going
to be changes. Bluestreak appears in the cartoon in Diaclone colors,
too, but it's a completely different Diaclone color scheme than his
package art and photos, so obviously Hasbro thought that one or the
other of these was going to look like the finished toy. (It's also
possible that Hasbro wasn't fully aware how many color variants there
were in the Diaclone line. There are so many things that fell through
the cracks during the early Transformers days that it's clear they
were focusing on just getting the product to market as quickly as
possible.)

> Onto the Microchange toys...it doesn't appear that most of the
> Microchange toys that became the Minibots had box art; certainly not
> Bumblebee, which must mean that the sticker shown on his robot mode
> chest in his box art was going to be there at some point during the
> Transformers phase. (Zob, you'll know more than I do about it;
> Bumblebees aren't my specialty.)

I almost tend to think that the artists who created the earliest
Transformers box art were using Diaclone toys for reference.
Obviously there had to be a considerable lead time between when the
packaging was being designed and when the toys were on shelves, so I'm
sure there were no finished Transformers samples when they were doing
the box art (or the 1984 catalog, which shows Soundwave with blue tape
over the Cassette Man logo). The artists might just have been
instructed to "draw this toy" and the artists complied, with changes
made later to things like color schemes or, in Bumblebee's case,
stickers.

> Perceptor (Questionable--I couldn't find any pictures of Microchange
> Perceptor's box art, if he had any)
> Astrotrain (questionable--see Perceptor)
> Blitzwing (see Perceptor)

Astrotrain was never sold as a Diaclone toy as such, so I don't know
whether Takara would have had existing art laying around. It's
interesting that his artwork matches the early dark grey prototype,
though (and cartoon colors) rather than the final Hasbro toy. I
assume his Diaclone color scheme would have been the black/white
version Takara sold rather than the purple added by Hasbro.

> In fact, Rumble and Mirage could have been done by the same guy--even
> Jeff Mangiat--but unless Jeff Mangiat was working for Takara in 1980,
> there's no way he could have drawn Starscream's box art...

Ah, excellent point. Well, he laid claim to "some of the seekers," so
maybe that means Skywarp and the Coneheads.

> I'm tempted to say that all the non-Diaclone art for 1984 & 1985 was
> Mangiat, with Richard Marcej doing most of the 1986-1988 art. So...I
> dunno!

To me, there was a real drop in quality in the box art during 1986,
which is a shame, but perhaps not surprising since they were cutting
costs that year (getting rid of the die-cast metal and whatnot). It's
like they just stopped trying to copy the style of the Japanese art
and went, "Meh, whatever, here you go, it's Blurr and Octane." The
artwork for the 1987 toys is really, really good, though, and I would
be extremely surprised if it were illustrated by the same person who
did the 1986 portraits.


Zob

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 11, 7:45 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> They tweaked a lot of the Diaclone art when they knew there were going
> to be changes.  Bluestreak appears in the cartoon in Diaclone colors,
> too, but it's a completely different Diaclone color scheme than his
> package art and photos, so obviously Hasbro thought that one or the
> other of these was going to look like the finished toy.  (It's also
> possible that Hasbro wasn't fully aware how many color variants there
> were in the Diaclone line.  There are so many things that fell through
> the cracks during the early Transformers days that it's clear they
> were focusing on just getting the product to market as quickly as
> possible.)

Yeah, and I'm sure that has something to do with it, but I still stand
firm in the camp that, at least somewhat, Hasbro wasn't willing to--or
didn't have the technology to--alter the existing box art to the point
they would later go to. The 1985 boxart is rife with recoloured
Diaclone and Microchange art, but the 1984 art--and the toys, too, in
most cases--are just pulled wholesale from Diaclone.

> I almost tend to think that the artists who created the earliest
> Transformers box art were using Diaclone toys for reference.
> Obviously there had to be a considerable lead time between when the
> packaging was being designed and when the toys were on shelves, so I'm
> sure there were no finished Transformers samples when they were doing
> the box art (or the 1984 catalog, which shows Soundwave with blue tape
> over the Cassette Man logo).  The artists might just have been
> instructed to "draw this toy" and the artists complied, with changes
> made later to things like color schemes or, in Bumblebee's case,
> stickers.

Possibly! Hard to tell. The thing that makes this interesting is the
Bumblejumper/Bumper art, since that's obviously consistent with the
boxart style so it must have come from someone at Hasbro or Takara.
I'm wondering if there's a third release of the Microchange cars with
box art...although the sometimes more "dynamic" poses of the Minibots'
box art makes me think it was Hasbro stuff. (The Hasbro-created box
art tends to have its robots in crazy action poses or at least lifting
their legs up as if they're running or something; the box art that we
know is Diaclone/Microchange usually has the robots more stoic.)

> Astrotrain was never sold as a Diaclone toy as such, so I don't know
> whether Takara would have had existing art laying around.  It's
> interesting that his artwork matches the early dark grey prototype,
> though (and cartoon colors) rather than the final Hasbro toy.  I
> assume his Diaclone color scheme would have been the black/white
> version Takara sold rather than the purple added by Hasbro.

Would you believe that I didn't know (or remember, maybe) that
Astrotrain's original release was in white? Somehow I had convinced
myself that he'd been released in grey and purple.

> Ah, excellent point.  Well, he laid claim to "some of the seekers," so
> maybe that means Skywarp and the Coneheads.

Probably, and maybe those transitional Conehead guys, too. These guys:
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/48/Ehobbygobotscatalog.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4797/starjet.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9863/thunderthrust.jpg
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/403/skydirge.jpg

> To me, there was a real drop in quality in the box art during 1986,
> which is a shame, but perhaps not surprising since they were cutting
> costs that year (getting rid of the die-cast metal and whatnot).  It's
> like they just stopped trying to copy the style of the Japanese art
> and went, "Meh, whatever, here you go, it's Blurr and Octane."  The
> artwork for the 1987 toys is really, really good, though, and I would
> be extremely surprised if it were illustrated by the same person who
> did the 1986 portraits.

Yeah, some of that stuff sucks; I've never liked Ultra Magnus' art,
for example. (Check out Powered Convoy's sometime--so awesome!)

I'm not sure if the drop was with the '86 toys in general, or if it
started with the Movie guys. Hard to tell. The Combaticons definitely
start going for a weird shading style, though.

[Steve L.K. Macrocranios]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 10:52:08 PM UTC-5, Zobovor wrote:
> Is there any information out there about the names of the artists who
> actually created the illustrations for the G1 Transformers packaging?

I know a guy named George Ladas did the Trypticon box art and the company he worked for (Base24 Design Systems) has that and other box art at their site:

http://www.base24.com/robot.htm

As for the minicars, I know there does exist a release of Microchange minicar boxes featuring their robot heads rendered as art, but with the rest of their body cropped off. I think Maz or Ras has a set of Microchange trading cards where the complete full body Takara minicar art is included for most all of the minicars in robot mode, but they're all just standing there and it's not very dynamic.

[Travoltron]

IIRC, both color schemes of Astrotrain have their own unique artwork.

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 12, 1:40 pm, "Steve L.K. Macrocranios"

<Evil.King.Macrocran...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know a guy named George Ladas did the Trypticon box art and the company he worked for (Base24 Design Systems) has that and other box art at their site:
>
> http://www.base24.com/robot.htm
>
> As for the minicars, I know there does exist a release of Microchange minicar boxes featuring their robot heads rendered as art, but with the rest of their body cropped off. I think Maz or Ras has a set of Microchange trading cards where the complete full body Takara minicar art is included for most all of the minicars in robot mode, but they're all just standing there and it's not very dynamic.

Woah! That's radical, there's some stuff I've never even seen before
there, like that Megatron art! Also some very weird Optimus Prime art,
and for some reason that old Megatron Microchange prototype. And then,
for some reason, Blue Tape Guy, even though it was Red Tape Guy who we
know got box art.

In fact, now that I look at it, the TF logo is different. I've seen it
before, somewhere, on some other early material. Can we contact this
guy, maybe get a bigger picture?

What a great find! Steve, you always find the weirdest (and best)
obscure stuff.

[Zobovor]

On Mar 12, 11:40 am, "Steve L.K. Macrocranios"

<Evil.King.Macrocran...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know a guy named George Ladas did the Trypticon box art and the company he worked for (Base24 Design Systems) has that and other box art at their site:
>
> http://www.base24.com/robot.htm

Well, first of all, I clearly need to take back what I said about the
1986 box art being crap. Trypticon's illustration is actually quite
lovely.

I recognize the portraits for Ironhide and Skywarp, of course, but the
rest of the art on that web site is brand new to me. Given the early
mostly-unused Transformers logo, it looks like these might have been
pieces that were commissioned pretty early on. Maybe Hasbro just paid
for illustrations of the entire 1984 line-up and then cherry-picked
the Takara art that they liked better? (The Soundwave and Frenzy art
shown here is actually a lot more dynamic. They're actually *doing*
something instead of just standing there.)

Also, this makes you wonder how many illustrations actually exist for
these guys. This makes at least the third version of Optimus Prime,
for example.


Zob

[Steve L.K. Macrocranios]

> > http://www.base24.com/robot.htm

> In fact, now that I look at it, the TF logo is different. I've seen it
> before, somewhere, on some other early material.

About 4 years ago I noticed a similar early logo was on some trademark application paperwork and started a thread called "The ORIGINAL original TF logo OR: Hey Chad it was 2 words after all " about it:

http://tinyurl.com/origTFlogo

or here's the long version of the link:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.toys.transformers/hxRHMjRMZ6c/discussion

Then an internet friend on another group posted that the logo was also used on the sticker sheets for Grimlock and Jetfire.

> Can we contact this
> guy, maybe get a bigger picture?

You probably could. He's got a blog and contact information. The blog is http://georgeladas.blogspot.com/ and I think Base24 is probably not just the company he worked for, but his operation. I'd hit him up for an interview myself but I just finished one with another person so I'll be busy working on that for a few days.

You could probably get him to send you that picture in higher res.


When I remember first seeing that page all he had was Trypticon. Then when I went back yesterday I was surprised to see that other stuff. So he's added it somewhat recently (or at least since the first time I visited the page, which was back in 2003).

[Zobovor]

On Mar 13, 8:46 am, Onslaught Six <onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In fact, now that I look at it, the TF logo is different. I've seen it
> before, somewhere, on some other early material.

That's an early logo that Hasbro apparently rejected in favor of the
squarish one we all know and love, though it did appear in this form
on some of the sticker sheets (I want to say Grimlock and Jetfire).

> Can we contact this guy, maybe get a bigger picture?

Way ahead of you on that one.

> What a great find! Steve, you always find the weirdest (and best)
> obscure stuff.

Agreed. Steve is truly a god among men.


Zob

[Steve L.K. Macrocranios]

> I know that Jeff Mangiat and Richard Marcej both did battle scenes for
> the back of the packaging (and also did the portraits for the original
> Optimus Prime and Powermaster Optimus Prime, respectively), but I'd
> really like to be able to assign more names to the packaging art.

Did you ever buy Marcej's book titled "My Artwork and Designs at Hasbro 1983-1989?" In it he describes how he provided the line art that the illustrators then took to make the package art. So it sounds like it was more than one person and a few different stages in the production.

Marcej's book has the line art for what eventually became the packaging illustrations for Horri-Bull, Joyride, Flamefeather, Sizzle, Skalor, and Spinister.

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 13, 1:24 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> (The Soundwave and Frenzy art
> shown here is actually a lot more dynamic.  They're actually *doing*
> something instead of just standing there.)

In some ways, I think I prefer the art we got. Soundwave, for example,
strikes me as a guy who 'would' stand around stoically.

> Also, this makes you wonder how many illustrations actually exist for
> these guys.  This makes at least the third version of Optimus Prime,
> for example.

I know, right?

[Zobovor]

On Mar 13, 11:22 am, "Steve L.K. Macrocranios"

<Evil.King.Macrocran...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You could probably get him to send you that picture in higher res.

George Ladas responded to my e-mail, and he said that the last time he
moved, he actually threw away a lot of early drawings that might have
been of interest to us. The Transformers pictures from his web site
are basically whatever he had left over—most of his Hasbro work was
actually for G.I. Joe, apparently. He did say that that if he ever
discovered anything else Transformers-related laying around that he'd
let me know. So, there's that.


Zob

[Optim_1]

On 13 mar, 14:30, "Steve L.K. Macrocranios"

Thanks for the tip on the book. I will try to hunt down the book. I am
a junkie for behind-the-scenes stuff for Transformers.

The gorgeous TF packaging including the character artworks are some of
the best memories I have from the G1 era. I thought the same artist
did them all and I still cannot distinguish between the art styles in
all the character artworks. I must be awful in art appraisal.

[Steve L.K. Macrocranios]

Zobovor wrote:

> George Ladas responded to my e-mail, and he said that the last time he
> moved, he actually threw away a lot of early drawings that might have
> been of interest to us.

I eagerly await the George Ladas tfwiki page that says "the fandom" knows this. (You know it's coming.)

[Chad Rushing]

On Mar 13, 12:22 pm, "Steve L.K. Macrocranios"

<Evil.King.Macrocran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> About 4 years ago I noticed a similar early logo was on
> some trademark application paperwork and started a
> thread called "The ORIGINAL original TF logo OR: Hey
> Chad it was 2 words after all " about it:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/origTFlogo
>
> or here's the long version of the link:
>

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.toys.transformers/hxRHMjR...

LOL, I had totally forgotten about that, but it was good to see that I
wasn't crazy for wondering about the two-word logo after all.

- Chad

[Steve L.K. Macrocranios]

> Agreed. Steve is truly a god among men.
>
> Zob

Ha! Then that makes you the kind of fan a god wishes he was!

But really, all I do is mostly regurgitate already known or readily available information. All people have to do is look and listen for what's out there and remember the source. I guess that's the power of the source. I might occasionally find something interesting but it's not because I'm a god, it's because the source is my ally, and a powerful ally it is!

[Zobovor]

On Mar 14, 9:14 pm, "Steve L.K. Macrocranios"

<Evil.King.Macrocran...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I eagerly await the George Ladas tfwiki page that says "the fandom" knows this. (You know it's coming.)

Snerk!


Zob

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 14, 10:22 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The gorgeous TF packaging including the character artworks are some of
> the best memories I have from the G1 era. I thought the same artist
> did them all and I still cannot distinguish between the art styles in
> all the character artworks. I must be awful in art appraisal.

You want a dead giveaway? The hands. Compare the hands on Optimus
Prime to, say, Bluestreak. Prime's got several extra segments in his
fingers; the Diaclone drawings tended to only have two segments.

[Optim_1]

Thanks for the tip. However, it is still difficult for me to
distinguish the artists involved. I could see that the Minibots has
different hands than the bigger robots so it looks to me like another
artist did the Minibots. I could also see that Megatron and Soundwave
has similar hands (as well as similar poses) but I stillI see very
little difference between the Optimus and Bluestreak hands; it is more
the top-view angle of Optimus's hands that makes you see the segments
more. Unless I don't understand what you mean by segments, I count
more than 2 hand segments in the Diaclone character arts. I see
nothing different in Hasbro Skywarp compared to Diaclones Starscream
and Thundercracker except that Skywarp has evil-looking eyes. The
hands and faces of the 1984 jets are different than the 1985 jets,
though. Other than the 1984/1985 jets and Megatron/Soundwave, the
artists has done a great job in making their works match each other,
at least to my uncritical eye.

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 16, 8:57 am, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the tip. However, it is still difficult for me to
> distinguish the artists involved.  I could see that the Minibots has
> different hands than the bigger robots so it looks to me like another
> artist did the Minibots. I could also see that Megatron and Soundwave
> has similar hands (as well as similar poses) but I stillI see very
> little difference between the Optimus and Bluestreak hands; it is more
> the top-view angle of Optimus's hands that makes you see the segments
> more. Unless I don't understand what you mean by segments, I count
> more than 2 hand segments in the Diaclone character arts. I see
> nothing different in Hasbro Skywarp compared to Diaclones Starscream
> and Thundercracker except that Skywarp has evil-looking eyes. The
> hands and faces of the 1984 jets are different than the 1985 jets,
> though. Other than the 1984/1985 jets and Megatron/Soundwave, the
> artists has done a great job in making their works match each other,
> at least to my uncritical eye.

Here's an example, compare, say, the Japanese Convoy art and the
American Optimus Prime art. Convoy has a central "hand" piece, and
then two segments for his fingers. Optimus Prime, though, has separate
pieces for his knuckles at the least, and his fingers are divided up
more into three separate sections.

[Optim_1]

On 16 mar, 09:27, Onslaught Six <onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Here's an example, compare, say, the Japanese Convoy art and the
> American Optimus Prime art. Convoy has a central "hand" piece, and
> then two segments for his fingers. Optimus Prime, though, has separate
> pieces for his knuckles at the least, and his fingers are divided up
> more into three separate sections.

Thanks. I see it now. It looks like Convoy actually has three segments
for the fingers, like a human hand, while Optimus has more than three.
Except for the hands, I like the Hasbro art better.

Why is there two commissioned artworks done for Optimus Prime,
Trypticon, Computron, Defensor and Fortress Maximus; and new art done
for Megatron when there was already Microman art for this character
available?

[Zobovor]

On Mar 18, 10:37 am, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I like the Hasbro art better.
>
> Why is there two commissioned artworks done for Optimus Prime,
> Trypticon, Computron, Defensor and Fortress Maximus; and new art done
> for Megatron when there was already Microman art for this character
> available?

One possibility is that Hasbro may not have been sure which Diaclone/
Microman toys had existing art and which ones didn't, so they
commissioned art for all the toys they planned to sell in 1984,
discovering the existing Japanese art later and selecting the ones
they liked the best. In the case of Megatron, the fact that Takara
sold different accessories than Hasbro did might have been a
consideration (in Japan, Megatron had that big silver sword; the
Hasbro version came with the stock and silencer). As for the others,
it might have just come down to aesthetics. Trypticon's domestic art
is serviceable, to be sure, but the art for the Japan market really
evokes a sense of danger and power. The Hasbro art may not have been
up to Takara's standards in some cases (witness what Takara did to
Motormaster's artwork) so they might have simply replaced it with
something they felt was more aesthetically pleasing.


Zob

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 18, 12:37 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Why is there two commissioned artworks done for Optimus Prime,
> Trypticon, Computron, Defensor and Fortress Maximus; and new art done
> for Megatron when there was already Microman art for this character
> available?

There's at least 'three' Optimus Primes in existence. Ladas' Optimus
looks even more different, and there's a Soundwave there too. Plus the
Megatron art, which is the only "new" Megatron art I've ever seen;
both TF variants (the normal US one and the Japanese "sword Megatron"
art) came from Microchange.

[Zobovor]

On Mar 18, 10:37 am, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Except for the hands, I like the Hasbro art better.

I would say that, generally speaking, the Japanese art is more
technically proficient, while the Hasbro art (especially the early
pieces) look like they're trying, and failing, to capture the look of
the Japanese art. Back when I was a kid, way before I knew what
Diaclone or Microman were and before I had the vaguest inkling what
was Japanese and what wasn't, I could tell that there was something
just slightly off about box art portraits like Skywarp's or Red
Alert's that I couldn't quite place. A lot of the poses the Hasbro
robots are in, they're just plain goofy, and the forced perspective is
just way over the top. (Red Alert's art is HORRIBLE for this reason.
It's just so amazingly bad.)

I loved the box art when I was growing up. I cut out the portraits
with a dull pair of scissors and taped the art to the walls in my
bedroom. Even when I was ten years old, I had a sense that there were
really good illustrations (Wheeljack, Inferno, Smokescreen, Soundwave,
the Constructicons) and ones that were not-so-good (Warpath,
Powerglide, Eject, Rewind, Kup). Turns out pretty much all my
favorites are Japanese.

I hate Hubcap's lips and Scourge's lack of a mouth and Grapple's lack
of upper arms. (Seriously. His forearms are connected directly to
his body in ways I can't possibly understand.)


Zob

[Steve L.K. Macrocranios]

Zobovor wrote:

> I would say that, generally speaking, the Japanese art is more
> technically proficient, while the Hasbro art (especially the early
> pieces) look like they're trying, and failing, to capture the look of
> the Japanese art.

I think this is especially true of Trypticon. The Japanese version is a lot more powerful looking and has that fantasy vibe going on, while the Hasbro one is almost a literal translation of the toy (but with lens flare and glowy sparkles).

[Optim_1]

On 19 mar, 14:35, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 18, 10:37 am, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Except for the hands, I like the Hasbro art better.
>
> I would say that, generally speaking, the Japanese art is more
> technically proficient, while the Hasbro art (especially the early
> pieces) look like they're trying, and failing, to capture the look of
> the Japanese art.  Back when I was a kid, way before I knew what
> Diaclone or Microman were and before I had the vaguest inkling what
> was Japanese and what wasn't, I could tell that there was something
> just slightly off about box art portraits like Skywarp's or Red
> Alert's that I couldn't quite place.  A lot of the poses the Hasbro
> robots are in, they're just plain goofy, and the forced perspective is
> just way over the top.  (Red Alert's art is HORRIBLE for this reason.
> It's just so amazingly bad.)
>

You have a very good eye. I still can't see what was so off about
Skywarp compared to Starscream and Thundercracker. Starscream's pose
is just as awkward as Skywarp's, at least to me. Thundercraker has a
more dynamic pose, but not by much.

> I loved the box art when I was growing up.  I cut out the portraits
> with a dull pair of scissors and taped the art to the walls in my
> bedroom.  Even when I was ten years old, I had a sense that there were
> really good illustrations (Wheeljack, Inferno, Smokescreen, Soundwave,
> the Constructicons) and ones that were not-so-good (Warpath,
> Powerglide, Eject, Rewind, Kup).  Turns out pretty much all my
> favorites are Japanese.
>
> I hate Hubcap's lips and Scourge's lack of a mouth and Grapple's lack
> of upper arms.  (Seriously.  His forearms are connected directly to
> his body in ways I can't possibly understand.)
>
> Zob

I really don't know which art was Hasbro's or Takara's so I can't
compare them. I would love to see a complete list of artists
involved.

I prefer the Hasbro Optimus and Fortress Maximus better than the
Takara versions. Hasbro's Optimus has a more alien-looking head with
slanted eyes that stood out. I also liked the Optimus head close-up in
the back-of-the-box art. He looked evil! I like Takara's Trypticon
better.

[Optim_1]

On 19 mar, 10:11, Onslaught Six <onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> There's at least 'three' Optimus Primes in existence. Ladas' Optimus
> looks even more different, and there's a Soundwave there too. Plus the
> Megatron art, which is the only "new" Megatron art I've ever seen;
> both TF variants (the normal US one and the Japanese "sword Megatron"
> art) came from Microchange.

Wow. Is there a link to the Ladas Optimus? I searched the Internet and
Botch's Box Art Archive website and can't find it.

I'm wondering why Takara had two versions of Megatron holding sword
and weapon. The best guess is that the Microchange version was not too
aesthetically pleasing.

[Zobovor]

On Mar 19, 4:34 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You have a very good eye. I still can't see what was so off about
> Skywarp compared to Starscream and Thundercracker. Starscream's pose
> is just as awkward as Skywarp's, at least to me. Thundercraker has a
> more dynamic pose, but not by much.

I think the biggest difference that I'm seeing is that in Starscream
and Thundercracker's art, there are little panels and technical-
looking things that make these guys look like really large,
sophisticated robots. Thundercracker's art is especially beautiful—
there are little lights on his wings and tiny, almost unnoticeable
rivets holding his armor together. He looks *alive.* In Skywarp's
art, these elements are missing. (They did make sure to draw the
little knob-holes on his stabilizers where his tail rudders fit into
it, which only further makes it look more like a plastic toy and less
like a gigantic robot.) I can tell that it was based mostly on
Thundercracker's art, but it looks like a counterfeit to me.

> I really don't know which art was Hasbro's or Takara's so I can't
> compare them. I would love to see a complete list of artists
> involved.

I think we talked a little bit about this earlier in this thread, but
let's review. The 1984-85 American packaging for Transformers
showcased the following:

Takara art: Bluestreak, Hound, Prowl, Trailbreaker, Wheeljack,
Frenzy, Laserbeak (reused for Buzzsaw), Megatron, Ravage, Soundwave,
Starscream, Thundercracker, Grimlock, Hoist, Inferno, Skids, Slag,
Sludge, Smokescreen, Snarl, Swoop, Topspin (robot mode), Tracks, Twin
Twist (robot mode), Bombshell, Bonecrusher, Hook, Kickback, Long Haul,
Mixmaster, Scavenger, Scrapper, Shrapnel.

Hasbro art: Brawn, Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Gears, Huffer, Ironhide,
Jazz, Mirage, Optimus Prime, Ratchet, Sideswipe, Sunstreaker,
Windcharger, Rumble, Skywarp, Beachcomber, Blaster, Cosmos, Grapple,
Jetfire, Omega Supreme, Perceptor, Powerglide, Red Alert, Roadbuster,
Seaspray, Topspin (vehicle mode), Twin Twist (vehicle mode), Warpath,
Whirl, Astrotrain, Barrage, Blitzwing, Chop Shop, Devastator, Dirge,
Ramjet, Ransack, Shockwave, Thrust, Venom.


Zob

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 19, 10:22 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> Hasbro art:  Brawn, Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Gears, Huffer, Ironhide,
> Jazz, Mirage, Optimus Prime, Ratchet, Sideswipe, Sunstreaker,
> Windcharger, Rumble, Skywarp, Beachcomber, Blaster, Cosmos, Grapple,
> Jetfire, Omega Supreme, Perceptor, Powerglide, Red Alert, Roadbuster,
> Seaspray, Topspin (vehicle mode), Twin Twist (vehicle mode), Warpath,
> Whirl, Astrotrain, Barrage, Blitzwing, Chop Shop, Devastator, Dirge,
> Ramjet, Ransack, Shockwave, Thrust, Venom.

I wouldn't quite go this far for some of these; I said all we know is
that they weren't done by Takara for Diaclone/Microchange. There's
still the possibility they were made by Takara later for TF. (But a
bunch of these obviously were Hasbro-drawn, so it's probably safe to
assume they all were, for now.)

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 19, 6:18 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Wow. Is there a link to the Ladas Optimus? I searched the Internet and
> Botch's Box Art Archive website and can't find it.

It's only a recent discovery...from this very thread, actually. This
is the only thing we have:
http://www.base24.com/images/transformers.jpg

> I'm wondering why Takara had two versions of Megatron holding sword
> and weapon. The best guess is that the Microchange version was not too
> aesthetically pleasing.

The two versions are actually mostly identical, just that one has
Megatron looking "forward" (in the direction he's standing) while the
other has him looking towards the viewer. I actually thought that it
was taken from the Microchange art and looked up the boxes to see
which was first, but it looks like they didn't use the Microchange
Megatron art at all. (Probably because he looks very squat in it--
which makes sense for a tiny gun robot, I guess, but not for Megatron,
Leader Of The Decepticons.)

[Optim_1]

On 20 mar, 11:46, Onslaught Six <onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 6:18 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Wow. Is there a link to the Ladas Optimus? I searched the Internet and
> > Botch's Box Art Archive website and can't find it.
>
> It's only a recent discovery...from this very thread, actually. This
> is the only thing we have:http://www.base24.com/images/transformers.jpg
>

Oops. Sorry. I should have read this amazing thread closely. The
George Ladas artworks seem familar. It could be my memory is faulty
but I think I have seen Ladas's Optimus and Soundwave somewhere.

[Onslaught Six]

On Mar 20, 2:00 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Oops. Sorry. I should have read this amazing thread closely. The
> George Ladas artworks seem familar. It could be my memory is faulty
> but I think I have seen Ladas's Optimus and Soundwave somewhere.

The strange TF logo was also used in a few places. It might be that
they were used on something like TF-brand character stickers or party
supplies (napkins and plates) or something.

[Zobovor]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 at 8:52:08 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:

> Is there any information out there about the names of the artists who
> actually created the illustrations for the G1 Transformers packaging?

Freelance artist Mark Watts is selling some of his early work on Transformers through his web site, so now we can finally assign a name to some of these paintings!

https://www.tableartstudios.com/collections/transformer-prints

Among the G1 artwork for sale includes the original box art for Shockwave, Brawn, Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Gears, Huffer, Menasor, Reflector, Jetfire, Breakdown, Drag Strip, Dead End, Motormaster, Wildrider, Long Haul, Bonecrusher, Hook, Mixmaster, Scavenger, and Scrapper.

Apparently he was brought back for Transformers: Generation 2 because he also did the paintings for Terradive, Eagle Eye, and G2 Ramjet. We can probably infer that he's also responsible for some of the characters missing from the web site (Windrazor and Afterburner) due to the identical art style employed.

In addition, he did some of the paintings for the mailer catalogs, like the gorgeous painting of Thundercracker in jet mode when he was available through mail-order in 1986.

He's also got battle scenes that are a montage of several pieces of art arranged together. One has Optimus Prime and Ravage; the other has Prowl and Megatron; a third features Jazz and Starscream. Obviously, he wasn't the genesis of the Japanese art used for the Diaclone or Microman toy line (Starscream, Ravage, Megatron, Prowl) so it's difficult to say whether the Hasbro art (Optimus Prime, Jazz) is really his or not.

I really want to interview this guy and find out for sure which pieces he worked on.


Zob (because I need yet another project to work on, apparently)

[Zobovor]

On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 12:01:56 PM UTC-6, Zobovor wrote:

> Apparently he was brought back for Transformers: Generation 2 because he also
> did the paintings for Terradive, Eagle Eye, and G2 Ramjet.

So, I've been studying the G2 Ramjet artwork more closely. I had always just assumed that Hasbro took the existing G1 art and digitally recolored it for the G2 line. Because, after all, it was a tentative relaunch and they didn't really know if it was going to be successful or not, so recycling assets was a good way to save some money.

If Mark Watts had a G2 Ramjet painting in his portfolio, though, then it couldn't have just been a digital G1 Ramjet recreation. So, I compared the two side-by-side and I discovered that the G2 Ramjet is actually a similar, but separate, piece of art. The pose is the same, obviously, but he must have started with a copy of the same line art and repainted it. There are telltale signs that it's different... the various highlights and swirls on the surface of his body are not the same. The shading is different, and even the interpretation of his physical features (like the vents on either side of his helmet) are different.

This means that Hasbro very likely commissioned this guy to redo almost ALL the G2 art. And it also may explain a few things like why the Aerialbots and Combaticons got all-new portraits instead of just having their G1 art recycled... it's because there was never any recycling going on in the first place!


Zob (very passionate about G2 for unexplained reasons)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

It's still funny to see these and notice mistransformed Motormaster and Menasor, but really cool to find the artist. I wonder if he'd take comissions on other characters that didn't get G1 art? We could get a G1 style Lugnut.

[Optim_1]

On Saturday, 7 April 2018 14:01:56 UTC-4, Zobovor wrote:

>
> Zob (because I need yet another project to work on, apparently)

That is a great find! Thanks. It's amazing that after 30+ years of Transformers we are still learning more about G1. I'm still waiting for someone to finally explain why toy and cartoon Galvatrons have different colours.

The Shockwave art is strange. Because his gun turret is actually on his left arm, I thought Hasbro did a mirror-image of the Shockwave art so that it could fit better on the right side of the toy packaging box. That way the toy packaging box was consistent with the packaging of the rest of the TF toys. But apparently not. There was no mirror-image. Mark Watts drew Shockwave with the turret on the right arm.

[brianj...@gmail.com]

Obviously, he wasn't the genesis of the Japanese art used for the Diaclone or Microman toy line (Starscream, Ravage, Megatron, Prowl) so it's difficult to say whether the Hasbro art (Optimus Prime, Jazz) is really his or not.

Jeffrey Mangiat has laid claim to drawing Op and Mirage. By extension we can also put all the non-Diaclone Autobot cars (and maybe Rumble) to him because of their identical style. It's hard not to see Shockwave being in the group to my eye, but maybe somebody can take a closer look. In any case, Watts's difference in art between the minibots and Jetfire/Shockwave looks weird.

>
> I really want to interview this guy and find out for sure which pieces he worked on.

I'm very curious why the Constructicons are here. They were, after all, Diaclone art prior. Did he re-draw them? Just get credit for recoloring?

Bumblejumper/Bumper! Does he know anything about him?? I'd also be curious whether he had any information on the red/yellow BB/CJ mixup.

I could probably come up with a few more questions if you are really thinking about interviewing him.

[Zobovor]

On Monday, April 9, 2018 at 10:48:34 PM UTC-6, brianj...@gmail.com wrote:

> I could probably come up with a few more questions if you are really thinking
> about interviewing him.

I fired off a message to him a couple of days ago but he hasn't responded yet. Some people are really cool about interviews and some people just aren't.

I never posted my interview with Marilyn Lightstone, did I? She yelled at me the entire time. In all capital letters.


Zob (which is kind of in character for Crasher, if you think about it)