TO BE OR NOT TO BE..............................................?
@.com gea
the last thing i expected was to find intellectuals argueing.
i suppose i thought it would be people involved in tis kind if thing
exchanging ideas.
now in fairness there is a bit if that, but it generally gets very heavy and
"which book did you read that in ?" and "can you prove it"
IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not innappropriate for
the
names of the groups ]
cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
or say, yes that has happened to me?
JUST CURIOUS
Gea Jones
jAb
jAb
--
what I say is my opinion, it's my I beliefs, if it offends you, perhaps
your already questioning yours
-Turtious
"gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
Asiya
news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> the last thing i expected was to find intellectuals argueing.
> i suppose i thought it would be people involved in tis kind if thing
> exchanging ideas.
Posting on usenet is like panning for gold.
> now in fairness there is a bit if that, but it generally gets very
heavy and
> "which book did you read that in ?" and "can you prove it"
> IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
That is part of your problem. Presumptions, assumptions, expectations,
suppositions are not useful. If you claim something really "out there"
is fact, be prepared to back it up. People can smell bullshit.
> if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not
innappropriate for
> the
> names of the groups ]
> cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
Completely inapproapriate for alt.tarot.
> would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
> or say, yes that has happened to me?
I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
Asiya
**********
www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
Eat the meatballs to email me.
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a253a0$3uq$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> "gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message
> news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> > When i first joined the " psychic, tarot, paranormal newsgroups"
> > the last thing i expected was to find intellectuals argueing.
> > i suppose i thought it would be people involved in tis kind if thing
> > exchanging ideas.
>
> Posting on usenet is like panning for gold.
>
> > now in fairness there is a bit if that, but it generally gets very
> heavy and
> > "which book did you read that in ?" and "can you prove it"
> > IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
>
> That is part of your problem.
"one minute the soothsayer, next the analyst."
Presumptions, assumptions, expectations,
> suppositions are not useful. If you claim something really "out there"
> is fact, be prepared to back it up. People can smell bullshit.
>
> > if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not
> innappropriate for
> > the
> > names of the groups ]
> > cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
>
> Completely inapproapriate for alt.tarot.
>
> > would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
> > or say, yes that has happened to me?
>
> I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
>
> Asiya
> **********
> www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
> Eat the meatballs to email me.
>
> so really you are only interested in completely proveable facts?
things that can be " backed up", by what, books, people who write books,
historical "facts",
is there anything about tarot you find mysterious? any questions you can't
answer? anything you can't "prove",
i doubt it,
gea
Asiya
> "Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:a253a0$3uq$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> > "gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message
> > news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> > > When i first joined the " psychic, tarot, paranormal newsgroups"
> > > the last thing i expected was to find intellectuals argueing.
> > > i suppose i thought it would be people involved in tis kind if
thing
> > > exchanging ideas.
> >
> > Posting on usenet is like panning for gold.
> >
> > > now in fairness there is a bit if that, but it generally gets very
> > > heavy and
> > > "which book did you read that in ?" and "can you prove it"
> > > IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
> >
> > That is part of your problem.
>
> "one minute the soothsayer, next the analyst."
You are assuming that my statements about your problem are false.
> > Presumptions, assumptions, expectations,
> > suppositions are not useful. If you claim something really "out
there"
> > is fact, be prepared to back it up. People can smell bullshit.
> >
> > > if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not
> > > innappropriate for the names of the groups ]
> > > cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
> >
> > Completely inapproapriate for alt.tarot.
> >
> > > would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
> > > or say, yes that has happened to me?
> >
> > I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
>
> so really you are only interested in completely proveable facts?
> things that can be " backed up", by what, books, people who write
books,
> historical "facts",
I did not say that I am interested in only completely proveable facts.
What I'm *not* interested in is delusional stories about psychics who
claim to have cured cancer, seen ghosts, and talked to the dead. And I'm
not asking for proof, either. You have a right to believe anything you
want. Other people may ask you for proof, however, and that is their
right as well.
Hieronymous707
>I did not say that I am interested in only completely proveable facts.
>What I'm *not* interested in is delusional stories about psychics who
>claim to have cured cancer, seen ghosts, and talked to the dead. And I'm
>not asking for proof, either. You have a right to believe anything you
>want. Other people may ask you for proof, however, and that is their
>right as well.
Well, that pretty much establishes what you are not and what you did not, but
none of that addresses whatever it is you are or do.
In the last sentence, are you "you", or are you "other people"?
I think what you're saying is that, according to you, you have the right to ask
other people for proof, but you're not asking for proof, because ...
Why was that again?
Just for the sake of argument, let's just say that you're you and I'm me, okay?
How are you? What do you want to know?
-hi-
Joseph
>
> --
> Gea
> "Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:a253a0$3uq$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> > "gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message
> > news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> > > When i first joined the " psychic, tarot, paranormal newsgroups"
> > so really you are only interested in completely proveable facts?
> things that can be " backed up", by what, books, people who write books,
> historical "facts",
> is there anything about tarot you find mysterious? any questions you can't
> answer? anything you can't "prove",
> i doubt it,
this is one of the more amusing aspects of this n.g.
a number of people here seem to think there are "Facts" about the tarot beyond
its mere existence that we should all agree upon.
the date place and origins of the tarot are obscure at best, unknown at worst.
whether it was a game, a tool or both or something completely unknown whose
meaning is lost to us today ( a set of stage directions for a lost play?) is debatable.
how much it owes to christianity (and it, itself owes a great deal to
paganism) or how much a revival of interest in the pagan pre christian world
helped formulate the original tarot is still far from authoritatively
established because most serious scholars wont waste their time on a deck of
cards. (although a lack of cold, hard, factual, evidence could also be the case)
any literature discussing the formulation of the tarot is non existent. or
yet to be revealed to the masses. ( i dismiss the alien artefact, angelic
revelation or book of thoth origins for the same reason i doubt "God" actually
wrote the torah or that it, the torah, in itself, is a sacred holy being.
the actual words of creation etc. etc. etc.)
no notebooks left over from the painters of the visconti or any other early
deck describing the reasons for the images being painted the way they are,
though there are plenty of works that tell us how to make the paints and
divide the canvass according to the golden mean to get the proportional
aspects of the cards. much of the technical aspects of the painters art has
come down to us but i know of no book or writing describing from the artists
point of view why they were painted the way they were, though it would not
surprise me that the oldest cards were like the newest a collaboration between
some sort of scholar and an artist. for very seldom does a great tarot scholar
also happen to be a great artist. i constantly bemoan the lack of a cellini
tarot though i would expect it to be enamelled in precious colours on gilded
plates of chased silver and appropriate metals for each card.
evan the symbolism of the earliest trumps vary widely enough to cause one to
speculate about proto-tarot, a collection of similar but different
symbol-tools that were over time merged and refined in to the more or less
present day tarot. but which, alas for us there are no records of save in the
tarots existence itself, much like the ancient cave paintings of france, there
are no accompanying, explanatory texts.
but the universal human tendency to seek out and consult oracles is at least
as compelling, if not more so, than the human tendency to gamble and play
games. as an explanation for the evolution of the tarot.
whether one gives validity to the concept of oracles or not one cant dismiss
them as they have and still do occupy an aspect of human consciousness that no
amount of oppression has been abel to eradicate.
if one refers to this ineradicable part of human nature as its desperate,
gullible and all together foolish side one might not be far wrong but the
human mind under stress often formulates insights it would not have under
ordinary circumstances.
this desperation can be rendered meaningless when it is taken to tea leaves
and a daily astrological columns. but at best it is a response to the given
stimuli of the moment that would cause one to see destiny in "the writing on
the wall", the need to interpret a dream and affect a people and a place and
from which we are still feeling the repercussions today.
what "Facts" any reasonable person would evan want to consider are all
mentioned in the F.A.Q., that so and so created a deck painted by another so
and so at such and such a time and that it was or was not influenced by this
or that line of thought as it had descended from the time it can be said to
have first been written about as any thing other than a prohibition or
content of a persons estate, not unlike Shakespeare's 2nd best bed.
if however one is going to "interpret" the tarot......try to "read" it or in
fairness, evan play a game with it, once this background noise called the
"Facts" are known and digested they become but the rules of the game everybody
plays by, the governing conventions that are referred to in case of need but
are other wise disregarded, forgotten and not talked about as they lend
nothing to the actual use of the tarot or evan the debate surrounding it.
you dont spend you time playing monopoly by reading the rules to each other,
you play the game and refer to the rules as needed. though i understand in
golf there are people who have so mastered the minutia of golf rules that
there abel to take a half a dozen or more strokes off their game with mere
procedural rules alone.
some times a mere discussion of myth by the meanest tyro can elicit an
response wholly unexpected in the listener.
an amiable discussion of the tarot should not automatically rule out "personal
experience" any more than it should elevate it to the new age fluff bunny
level of ordained self affirmation.
but if were going to talk about divination and espically about its particular
form of interpretation, "personal experiance" quickly becomes paramount. for
it is my contention that all the cards show us aspects of life that while we
can read about them we only understand them by experiancing them. which is
why i have often said that the more you understand yourself the more easy,
simple and true the tarot becomes.
Joseph
>
> gea
Hieronymous707
>"which book did you read that in ?" and "can you prove it"
>IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
It shouldn't be. I mean, I don't blame you for not remembering where you may
have read something, but if you're going to make a claim of some sort ... I
mean, the name of the game is Show-and-Tell. You should be able to do both.
>if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not innappropriate for
>the
>names of the groups ]
>cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
>would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
>or say, yes that has happened to me?
I don't think it's an either/or proposition.
>JUST CURIOUS
and noisy.
-hi-
Asiya
news:20020116210847...@mb-cn.aol.com...
> >From: "Asiya" asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com
>
> >I did not say that I am interested in only completely proveable
facts.
>
> >What I'm *not* interested in is delusional stories about psychics who
> >claim to have cured cancer, seen ghosts, and talked to the dead. And
I'm
> >not asking for proof, either. You have a right to believe anything
you
> >want. Other people may ask you for proof, however, and that is their
> >right as well.
>
> Well, that pretty much establishes what you are not and what you did
not, but
> none of that addresses whatever it is you are or do.
Yes, I know.
> In the last sentence, are you "you", or are you "other people"?
"You" as in universal.
> I think what you're saying is that, according to you, you have the
right to ask
> other people for proof, but you're not asking for proof, because ...
>
> Why was that again?
I didn't say.
> Just for the sake of argument, let's just say that you're you and I'm
me, okay?
Sure.
> How are you?
I'm good, thanks for asking. How are you?
> What do you want to know?
What do you want to know?
Asiya
Uncle Nono
Your response makes you another man of my own heart. Thank you.
I wanted to share with you something that happened to me this week. I don't
know if this is the appropriate discussion for this, but I went to my
horoscope out of mere curiosity yesterday, something I seldom ever do
because I don't take much stock in it. I called my wife over because we're
both Taureans and I laughed at how it said that if I was self-employed I
would be acquiring a new prospect for business. As I read it over and over,
I thought I could create something in the day to match this up with and
closed out of it. Just as I closed out of it, my phone rang. One of my
agents called me up to tell me that she had an interview for me for a
potential client. I sat in front of the computer stunned and in disbelief.
A few days ago, I woke up with my left hand itchy. I told my wife and
neighbor about it. I explained that everytime this happens a large sum of
money comes my way. "Yeah, right." We had no clue where this money would
be coming from. Yesterday, I received a call from a certain company
requesting that I send an updated Beneficiary Demand for a lawsuit I had
once three years ago and which I thought I would never see a dime of. It
turned out that they will be sending me a check for $14,000 as soon as they
the demand.
Twilight Zone? or Psychic Coincidence?
--
Uncle Nono
uncle...@verizon.net
Our Family Website: http://communities.msn.com/TheKingstonFamilyWebsite
Uncle Nono
have resources that are reliable, but then again there are testimonies that
are not written which others in this subject ng can relate to. In the
latter, testimonies are not subject to relativity of resources or evidence
because they are personal and really don't prove anything except to the
individual who experienced it.
I think quoting resources are important if you're out to prove something or
if you wish to direct others to something that they might find of interest.
--
Uncle Nono
uncle...@verizon.net
Our Family Website: http://communities.msn.com/TheKingstonFamilyWebsite
"gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
White Rabbit
Theo
gea wrote:
--
"Nonsense is nonsense only when we have not yet found that point of view from
which it makes sense""
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not
sure about the former."
Albert Einstein
J. Karlin
> > is there anything about tarot you find mysterious? any questions you can't
> > answer? anything you can't "prove",
> > i doubt it,
>
> this is one of the more amusing aspects of this n.g.
Then why crosspost to other newsgroups?
> a number of people here seem to think---
That does distinguish them from most other people.
> there are "Facts" about the tarot beyond
> its mere existence that we should all agree upon.
The truth is not dependent upon your belief in it.
And you know that's true.
That's why you wouldn't accept Margaret's Golden Gate
challenge.
> the date place and origins of the tarot are obscure at best, unknown at worst.
That is not true.
There are facts about the creation of Tarot which are known,
which are not subject to debate. Some of these facts are
of a negative nature.
For example:
1. Tarot was NOT invented by Atlanteans in the year 9000 BC.
2. Tarot was NOT invented by ancient Egyptians in the year
2500 BC.
3 Tarot was NOT invented by Martians and brought to this
planet for the betterment of humanity.
4. Tarot was NOT invented for use as a divinatory, psychic,
or metaphysical tool.
5. Tarot was NOT invented by Freemasons, Rosicrucians,
Pythagoreans, or by the fellows down at the Moose
lodge.
6. Tarot was NOT invented to contain a big secret, or
to do double-duty as a cosmograph, soul-graph,
Tree of Life graph, OR as an alphabet primer.
Then, there are some positive things we can say about
the date, place, and origins of the creation of Tarot.
1. Tarot WAS invented by Europeans, most likely by
Italian nobles living in early 15th-century Italy.
2. Tarot WAS invented to play card games, and this
FACT serves to give us indications about who invented
it, where it was invented, and why.
3. The deck (of 22 trump cards) and the game for which
they were used were first called "Trionfi"---Triumphs,
NOT Tarot. Thus, all speculations concerning the
true origin and meaning of Tarot based on the
later FRENCH name (Tarot) of the deck are
based upon historical ignorance of the facts.
4. Tarot fairly quickly spread out of Italy, eventually
almost all over Europe, to places where people were
unfamiliar both with the origin of the game, and
the cards, and also where they lacked cultural
understanding of some of the images they saw
illustrated on the deck. Thus, "mystery" was
introduced into the equation, but this mystery
was, and still is, based upon ignorance of
the facts.
> how much it owes to christianity---
It owes a great deal to Christianity.
It was born in a Christian cultural matrix, it depicts
Christian symbolism, it was used by Christians (not always
of course for Church-approved activities).
Your bigotry, religious and otherwise, which you share
with so many other ignorant people, blinds you to the
necessity of dealing with the facts.
The necessity in this case is that you HAVE to acknowledge
the Christian roots and symbolism of Tarot to have
any chance to understand what you're looking at and
how it has evolved, both as pictorial representations
and as dogma.
> any literature discussing the formulation of the tarot is non existent.
That is also not true.
The textual evidence of the entry and development of
playing cards into Europe (which begins the formulation
of Tarot as a game) is, while not massive, certainly
more than just a mention or two. In fact there are
explicit statements early on acknowledging exactly
what we know to be the facts today---the Europeans
obtained playing cards from the "Saracens" (the
Mamluk Egyptians). This deck was later modified
by the addition of a special suit of trumps. We
know this because we have both the surviving
cards, depicting symbols which locate the place
and time of the creation of the decks, and we
have early account-book records showing payments
by Italian nobility for "trionfi" and also
early Church documents showing listings of
the names of the cards and their order, which
denounces their use IN GAMES (not in divination).
> no notebooks left over from the painters of the visconti---
What about the "notes" on the cards?
> or any other early deck describing the reasons for
> the images being painted the way they are---
There is nothing special about the way the images are
painted (or at least depicted), they were common illustrations
and motifs for all kinds of things (in Italy in mid-15th
century), in this case playing cards.
> whether one gives validity to the concept of oracles or not one
> cant dismiss them---
Sure they can.
And they do.
And they will, until the pinheaded world of ignorance you
love and cherish is dead and gone and good riddance to it.
> an amiable discussion of the tarot should not automatically rule out "personal
> experience"---
If there is one thing this newsgroup has unquestionably
established it is that the personal experience of
ignorant fools such as yourself is neither topically
pertinent nor interesting in any way (except as a
clinical measure of the pathological hysteria of
the confessors---and this is not a support group).
(jk)
**********************************************
Read the alt.tarot FAQ:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~r3winter/tarotfaq.html
More tarot resources available at:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~r3winter/alttarotqa.html
**********************************************
Hieronymous707
>There are facts about the creation of Tarot which are known,
>which are not subject to debate. Some of these facts are
>of a negative nature.
Good point.
<snip more good points>
>What about the "notes" on the cards?
Good question. Why quote notes?
(That's a rhetorical question, by the way)
<snip some more good notes>
>If there is one thing this newsgroup has unquestionably
>established it is that the personal experience of
>ignorant fools such as yourself is neither topically
>pertinent nor interesting in any way
Unless one considers "the personal experience of ignorant fools such as
yourself" as an aspect and representation of a current "cultural matrix" that
can be compared and contrasted to that which existed when Tarot was created.
>(except as a
>clinical measure of the pathological hysteria of
>the confessors---and this is not a support group).
That's kind of what I said.
-hi-
Evil Noodle
"gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message news:a25136$7dn$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
experience and understanding will also.
We could spend forever trying to convince the sceptics, and frankly
life's just too short.
They are entitled to their opinions as we are to ours, but to some
people intellect and hard science is everything, let them go their way
and we will go ours.
There should always be those of like mind on both sides to appeal
to a poster on any subject, but some just can't resist jumping down
your throat for something they find unacceptable to their belief system.
Take care,
E N
Evil Noodle
"Uncle Nono" <uncle...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:PWu18.2910$aB5.9...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
Hippy tree hugger, what will you be thinking next?
'IT'S A COINCIDENCE MAN' :)
Charles Gregory
gea (gea@.com) wrote:
: When i first joined the " psychic, tarot, paranormal newsgroups"
: the last thing i expected was to find intellectuals argueing.
Well, that's good, because I've seen very few of them in this group.
(smile)
: i suppose i thought it would be people involved in tis kind if thing
: exchanging ideas.
Well, that's what *I* hope for, looking for common threads among very
strange and varying phenomena. But the people you call 'intellectuals' are
intent on proving their superior mindset by ridiculing those people who
have had more interesting lives....
: "which book did you read that in ?" and "can you prove it"
: IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
THEY INTEND IT TO BE. As soon as a new poster appears, these flamers (I
can't really call them 'skeptics' - they aren't open-minded enough), will
lash into a person, laughing at their apparent foolishness. They want to
scare you away from being 'infected' by the other 'believers' in the
group.
: if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not innappropriate for
: the names of the groups ] cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to
: the dead, would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
: or say, yes that has happened to me?
I would ask you to question your own experience, providing what relevant
insite into human perceptions I can from my own true and false
experiences. I try to avoid drawing conclusions from perception, while not
making the mistake of dismissing perceptions because they do not conform
to my worldview. I have not had visions, but I have seen a number of
phenomena that are equally strange. My wife had a kind of epilepsy or
hyper-tensive blackout several times a week for years. Then, after a few
months of wishing for them to 'stop' - trying to visualize and heal the
'broken' connections in her brain, one night, after yet another blackout,
I calmly announced that I had just fixed the last bit of damage, and that
this would never happen again. She has not had another sinlge blackout
(that I have witnessed or she has noticed) in over 8 years.
Coincidence? Placebo effect? Or, based on my other experiences with just
wishing away my own and other's injuries, maybe something 'real'?
: JUST CURIOUS
Two words that *should* define the nature of conversation in this group.
Welcome.
- Charles
Hilander
for
> the
> names of the groups ]
> cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
> would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
Are you relating 'cancer' to a paranormal phenomena?
And which type of 'cancer', specifically, are you talking about? There are
different kinds which behave in very different ways.
Are you fond of such generalizations?
When talking to an oncologist [a specialist in certain types of cancers as
opposed to a hematologist] who claimed to 'cure cancer' [which is a phrase
they'd never use but instead use phrases like "80% complete remission rate
over a 5 year study"], damn straight I'd want more info! I'd want to see
the 'books', the 'studies' and the 'statistics' to back up their
assertation.
I'm glad that most oncs *do* care about being informed and I would NOT want
to entrust my life or the life of a loved one with one who said "so really
you are only interested in completely proveable facts?
things that can be " backed up", by what, books, people who write books,
historical "facts"?" as if that should be ignored or overlooked.
I wouldn't want an onc who postulated that cancer is a 'paranormal
phenomena' brought to us by Gypsies or invented by Egyptians or even 'who
cares?'.
"is there anything about cancer <tarot> you find mysterious? any questions
you can't
answer? anything you can't "prove""
There are lots of things about 'cancers' that are still unknown. And that
means what? That no-one should bother? Thank the Universe that there are
people who do bother! That thier questing for facts and knowledge have made
huge advances in understanding prevention, maintenance and
'cure'........even if they haven't hit on the "Truth".
And since you lumped Tarot with 'cancer' (pardon the pun)..........why
should a person who studies Tarot be any less insistant on gaining facts and
knowledge than a competant Oncologist or Hematologist?
Tea
White Rabbit
Charles Gregory wrote:
> Hi Gaea!
>
> gea (gea@.com) wrote:
>
> :<SNIP>
>
> I calmly announced that I had just fixed the last bit of damage, and that
> this would never happen again. She has not had another sinlge blackout
> (that I have witnessed or she has noticed) in over 8 years.
> Coincidence? Placebo effect? Or, based on my other experiences with just
> wishing away my own and other's injuries, maybe something 'real'?
>
> : JUST CURIOUS
>
> Two words that *should* define the nature of conversation in this group.
>
> Welcome.
>
> - Charles
there are a lot of ** curious things** indeed to think about .
On this basis ( the way you announce it ) I can say I am curious too
I subscribe...
see you in the "other side ";-)
Theo
Joseph
>
> Joseph wrote:
>
> > > is there anything about tarot you find mysterious? any questions you can't
> > > answer? anything you can't "prove",
> > > i doubt it,
> >
> > this is one of the more amusing aspects of this n.g.
>
> Then why crosspost to other newsgroups?
to spread your amusing reputation, and because the original poster thought it
appropriate and because i dont have your knee jerk reaction to x posts.
>
> > a number of people here seem to think---
>
> That does distinguish them from most other people.
>
> > there are "Facts" about the tarot beyond
> > its mere existence that we should all agree upon.
>
> The truth is not dependent upon your belief in it.
>
> And you know that's true.
>
> That's why you wouldn't accept Margaret's Golden Gate
> challenge.
well thats just silly theres a much better reason for not accepting her
specious "challange" than your wholy fallacious reasoning for it.
>
> > the date place and origins of the tarot are obscure at best, unknown at worst.
>
> That is not true.
>
> There are facts about the creation of Tarot which are known,
> which are not subject to debate. Some of these facts are
> of a negative nature.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. Tarot was NOT invented by Atlanteans in the year 9000 BC.
> 2. Tarot was NOT invented by ancient Egyptians in the year
> 2500 BC.
> 3 Tarot was NOT invented by Martians and brought to this
> planet for the betterment of humanity.
> 4. Tarot was NOT invented for use as a divinatory, psychic,
> or metaphysical tool.
> 5. Tarot was NOT invented by Freemasons, Rosicrucians,
> Pythagoreans, or by the fellows down at the Moose
> lodge.
> 6. Tarot was NOT invented to contain a big secret, or
> to do double-duty as a cosmograph, soul-graph,
> Tree of Life graph, OR as an alphabet primer.
>
> Then, there are some positive things we can say about
> the date, place, and origins of the creation of Tarot.
>
> 1. Tarot WAS invented by Europeans, most likely by
> Italian nobles living in early 15th-century Italy.
what is your "proof" that they were not influenced in this creation by an
earlier influence from somewhere else?
> 2. Tarot WAS invented to play card games, and this
> FACT serves to give us indications about who invented
> it, where it was invented, and why.
again what is your proof of this?
>
> > how much it owes to christianity---
>
> It owes a great deal to Christianity.
>
> It was born in a Christian cultural matrix, it depicts
> Christian symbolism, it was used by Christians (not always
> of course for Church-approved activities).
and chritianity owes much to the pagan world it "borrowed" from as did the
jews before them and almost any culture not sealed off from the rest of the world.
>
> Your bigotry, religious and otherwise, which you share
> with so many other ignorant people, blinds you to the
> necessity of dealing with the facts.
i just wish you could tell the differance between an opinion and what you so
assertivly call "facts" any one of which is open to interpretation.
>
> The necessity in this case is that you HAVE to acknowledge
> the Christian roots and symbolism of Tarot to have
> any chance to understand what you're looking at and
> how it has evolved, both as pictorial representations
> and as dogma.
if your still afraid of the big bad boogey man who will send you to hell for
being your self i dont think you have much to worry about in lese majesty
>
> > any literature discussing the formulation of the tarot is non existent.
>
> That is also not true.
>
> The textual evidence of the entry and development of
> playing cards into Europe (which begins the formulation
> of Tarot as a game) is, while not massive, certainly
> more than just a mention or two. In fact there are
> explicit statements early on acknowledging exactly
> what we know to be the facts today---the Europeans
> obtained playing cards from the "Saracens" (the
> Mamluk Egyptians). This deck was later modified
> by the addition of a special suit of trumps. We
> know this because we have both the surviving
> cards, depicting symbols which locate the place
> and time of the creation of the decks, and we
> have early account-book records showing payments
> by Italian nobility for "trionfi" and also
> early Church documents showing listings of
> the names of the cards and their order, which
> denounces their use IN GAMES (not in divination).
which is what i said but more tersely, shakespears 2nd best bed
>
> > no notebooks left over from the painters of the visconti---
>
> What about the "notes" on the cards?
either your not reading well today or your being deliberatly obscure for your
purpose of contradicting me, not one your better attempts either.
>
> > or any other early deck describing the reasons for
> > the images being painted the way they are---
>
> There is nothing special about the way the images are
> painted (or at least depicted), they were common illustrations
> and motifs for all kinds of things (in Italy in mid-15th
> century), in this case playing cards.
and the techniques come down to us in the form of diarys, texts and notes
preserved since the time of the artist
>
> > whether one gives validity to the concept of oracles or not one
> > cant dismiss them---
>
> Sure they can.
your selective editing only fools yourself and those who are foolish enough to
accept your specious practices
>
> And they do.
>
> And they will, until the pinheaded world of ignorance you
> love and cherish is dead and gone and good riddance to it.
keep telling yourself that and you might come to believe it ...someday
>
> > an amiable discussion of the tarot should not automatically rule out "personal
> > experience"---
>
> If there is one thing this newsgroup has unquestionably
> established it is that the personal experience of
> ignorant fools such as yourself is neither topically
> pertinent nor interesting in any way (except as a
> clinical measure of the pathological hysteria of
> the confessors---and this is not a support group).
if you had your way there would be a set of "facts" and only the "facts" that
have your personal approval and these alone would be discussed, probley in
terms similar to an acutioneer .....
what am i bid for fact 1? how many people will write this news group and tell
us what a great writer you are for stating that theres a wide window of
opertunity for the tarot to have come into existance ( never mind the proto
tarot) in the early 15th century. we could debate how many ways to say this,
how many foot notes to add to it, what alphabet to type set it in, which deck
to use to illustrate your point, if the kkkarlin had his way thats the only
kind of "discussion" that would be here.
im as interested in the tyros fumbeling attempts to integrate the tarot into
their own world as i am any serious scholoar of the subject unfortunatly for
kkkarlin im more interested in the divinatory aspect than its reputed gaming
aspect as are most people here.
most serious scholoars would take the kkkarlins line of gaming and write large
books on this subject and have littel if any interest to me, but this
presupposes a situation where one can discuss divination with out having one
intelligance and sanity constantly questioned, when i say i want to discuss
the divinatory aspects of the tarot that is not an invitation to challange my
intelligance or sanity, unfortunatly kkkarlin has the sophmoric tendancy to
take a disagreement as to interpretation of "facts" personaly and reduce any
debate to an attack on the people in questions ability to have a rational
debabte about something kkkarlin does not consider worthy of inclusion in this n.g.
at best kkkarlins the sharp seasoning in an otherwise rather bland soup. at
worst he denies the need for nourishment all together and insists we can live
on regurgitated "facts"
joseph
>
> (jk)
>
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Joseph" <jos...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3C474F11...@pacbell.net...
No doubt you will find something unpleasant to say, but here goes,
I am glad you mentioned Italy, the town they originated in is called
Viterbo, near Orvieto.
Gea
Hieronymous707
>No doubt you will find something unpleasant to say, but here goes,
>I am glad you mentioned Italy, the town they originated in is called
>Viterbo, near Orvieto.
Okay, but you can't just say that and stop. I'm a little familiar with
Viterbo. I mean, I know a good restaurant and about the sulpher springs and
stuff, but I don't recall any specific mention that trionfi originated there.
Where'd you get that from, Gea?
-hi-
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Hieronymous707" <hierony...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117181336...@mb-cn.aol.com...
from lady frieda harris' own commentary on her cards and how she designed
and interpreted them etc. she did a massive amount of research and this is
the only place i have read this.
it was in a rather obscure book/let which accompanied the large thoth pack ,
and had crowleys interpretaions and then hers.
gea
Hieronymous707
>from lady frieda harris' own commentary on her cards and how she designed
>and interpreted them etc. she did a massive amount of research and this is
>the only place i have read this.
>it was in a rather obscure book/let which accompanied the large thoth pack ,
>and had crowleys interpretaions and then hers.
Okay, it says, "In an 18th century History of Viterbo, the date 13[7]9 is given
as marking the importation of this game into Italy by the Saracens."
The Harris reference is to an entry in Feliciano Bussi's _History of Viterbo_
(1742) relating to the apparent introduction and use of playing cards in that
city, not specifically trionfi or Tarocchini.
Earlier in the essay, Lady Harris writes, "The various attempts, however, to
assign a date to the creation of the Tarot and to attribute its invention to
particular persons and races is beside the point and fated to be inconclusive."
Just something to think about.
-hi-
Juan Herberto
experience" quickly becomes paramount.."- right on de money, Count!
^..^
Got Problems?
Get RIDOVEM
Juan Herberto
trading cards from the "Saracens" (the Mamluk Egyptians).."- you're
equating Saracens with Mamluk Egyptians? Which is it? Is this an
implication that a subculture of E. Europeans (ie the Mamlouks),
produced the cards (out of.. what cultural background?.. their
accounting duties?); or the 'Saracens' (ie Arabs who professed to follow
Islam)? That the Major trumps arose.. what? a couple of hundred years
later?.. and got 'married' somehow to the numbered deck we know as
playing cards?
Hmmm... there was allegedly a hebrew language Old Testament printed with
movable type, near Milan in the 1480s sometime. If there were Turks in
the Egyptian woodpile, why not Hebrews in the Italian printshops? [I
still prefer the origin of the major Arcana attributed to the 'Arsenal
guilds' (first unionized Europeans) of the centuries following the fall
of the Western Empire, 8th-10th Centuries...), an arcane Primer, printed
with potato block cuts on vellum, for the edification & amusement of the
first middle-class children of Europe...] ^..^
Got Problems?
Get RIDOVEM
Charles Gregory
: I'd say you need help, but that's just me.
I'd say you weren't any help. But that's just me..... :-)
Charles Gregory
: Posting on usenet is like panning for gold.
....in a sewer.
: Presumptions, assumptions, expectations, suppositions are not useful.
What if they are all that we have?
: If you claim something really "out there" is fact, be prepared to back
: it up. People can smell bullshit.
Back it up for themselves, or for others? In order to share ideas and
grow, we should all insure that we are right about what we have
experienced, but going to ridiculous levels to 'prove' the unprovable to
others is just a waste of time. THAT is the bullshit. Not the lack of
evidence. I mean really, I have in my possession the pieces of a pair of
kitchen shears broken by telekinetic force, but you have to take someone's
word for it that they weren't simply smashed by ordinary force. It's
ample 'back-up' for the people who were there, but not for a third party
observer. But we can still discuss it with others who have had similar
experiences without playing the 'prove it' game. If it's bullshit to *you*
then don't get involved.
: I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
So would I, to you. If only because you think someone with a genuine
inquiring mind should stop inquiring. Bye bye.
Charles Gregory
: They are entitled to their opinions as we are to ours, but to some
: people intellect and hard science is everything, let them go their way
: and we will go ours.
Please don't be so quick to assume the two ways are different. One can
have a very strong intellect, and even a healthy skepticism and not
reject the mysterious and unknown. If anything, a proper inquriing
mindset leads to a more credible and confident outlook on unusual
phenomena. A bit of solid analytical thinking helps reassure us that we
are indeed not as 'nuts' as others may think..... :-)
Charles Gregory
: there are a lot of ** curious things** indeed to think about .
: On this basis ( the way you announce it ) I can say I am curious too
: I subscribe...
FYI - I only subscribe to 'alt.paranormal' - the other two groups are not
available on my server, currently......
White Rabbit
in fact there still is a very old hezelnuts tree
witches used for necklaces
these necklaces are become tradition in some cities expecially at St Joseph
day!
gea wrote:
--
White Rabbit
and his Hazelnuts trees used for magic wands and hazelnuts necklaces
They could escape to the Catholic grip and continue the Tradition
Maybe this is why tarots are supposed to come from there
But I never heard about it
Theo
Hieronymous707 wrote:
--
White Rabbit
Charles Gregory wrote:
> Asiya (asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com) wrote:
> : Posting on usenet is like panning for gold.
>
> ....in a sewer.
>
> : Presumptions, assumptions, expectations, suppositions are not useful.
>
> What if they are all that we have?
>
> : If you claim something really "out there" is fact, be prepared to back
> : it up. People can smell bullshit.
>
> Back it up for themselves, or for others? In order to share ideas and
> grow, we should all insure that we are right about what we have
> experienced, but going to ridiculous levels to 'prove' the unprovable to
> others is just a waste of time. THAT is the bullshit. Not the lack of
> evidence. I mean really, I have in my possession the pieces of a pair of
> kitchen shears broken by telekinetic force, but you have to take someone's
> word for it that they weren't simply smashed by ordinary force. It's
> ample 'back-up' for the people who were there, but not for a third party
> observer. But we can still discuss it with others who have had similar
> experiences without playing the 'prove it' game. If it's bullshit to *you*
> then don't get involved.
sorry to intrude
ok assuming that the shears story is real.
so what is going a person to do with such a power ?
Benting shears or knives or spoon in the market fair or on TV ?
is it useful for what ?
this is a question I always wonted to have an answer to ..
maybe will find here?
Theo
>
>
> : I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
>
> So would I, to you. If only because you think someone with a genuine
> inquiring mind should stop inquiring. Bye bye.
--
White Rabbit
Charles Gregory wrote:
you are correct ..some analytical thinking helps..
I am not a "nut" about paranormal but I have heard many strange
unusual things happened and lived by persons that are not "nuts" and
come from a good cultural level.
They talk about their experienced when the context permit ..
This is to say that probably 80 % of us had to do with strange phenomenas
some
might be explained some others not , so it is quite common in the humanity
..
but these people very seldom talk about
What is unpleasant is when people exceed in trying to find paranormal or
magic whatever
unusual thing occurs, and get excited about and refuse to think, and
do not try to see
if they take theirs dreams for realities!
Theo
White Rabbit
see you there than :-)
Theo
Charles Gregory wrote:
--
Asiya
news:a28dga$s0l$2...@mohawk.hwcn.org...
> Asiya (asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com) wrote:
> : Posting on usenet is like panning for gold.
>
> ....in a sewer.
heh Yes.
> : Presumptions, assumptions, expectations, suppositions are not
useful.
>
> What if they are all that we have?
Those that have only presumptions, assumptions, expectations, and
suppositions have not begun to inquire.
> : If you claim something really "out there" is fact, be prepared to
back
> : it up. People can smell bullshit.
>
> Back it up for themselves, or for others? In order to share ideas and
> grow, we should all insure that we are right about what we have
> experienced, but going to ridiculous levels to 'prove' the unprovable
to
> others is just a waste of time. THAT is the bullshit.
I am from alt.tarot. By the very nature of its subject, alt.paranormal
has different standards than alt.tarot regarding proving facts. Tarot
deals with many provable things. The paranormal does not.
Gea has a little history in alt.tarot of stating her delusional beliefs
as if they were facts. Not about psychic things, but about concrete
Tarot things (and related occult subjects) that simply are not facts and
are refutable.
> I mean really, I have in my possession the pieces of a pair of
> kitchen shears broken by telekinetic force, but you have to take
someone's
> word for it that they weren't simply smashed by ordinary force. It's
> ample 'back-up' for the people who were there, but not for a third
party
> observer. But we can still discuss it with others who have had similar
> experiences without playing the 'prove it' game.
That's fine. That's what your alt.paranormal newsgroup is for. It's not
what alt.tarot is for.
> If it's bullshit to *you* then don't get involved.
Which is exactly why I wrote: 'I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go
away."' I'm not interested in it, but I respect others' rights to be
interested in it.
> : I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
>
> So would I, to you. If only because you think someone with a genuine
> inquiring mind should stop inquiring. Bye bye.
haha That is genuinely funny. You have merely presumed that I think
that.
Regularly challenging one's assumptions and beliefs is a skill I've
advocated for a long time now.
Asiya
**********
www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
Eat the meatballs to email me.
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Hilander" <hila...@block.lightspeed.ca> wrote in message
news:PpG18.47670$O3.97...@news1.telusplanet.net...
>Dear Tea,,
> Well, to start with the only people I have done healing on in that
positition have been referred to me by the medical profession.
Unfortunately most people come for "healing" as a last resort, so it makes
it harder.
It is usually at the stage where they have been told "I am very sorry but
there is nothing more I can do for you ",
they may be given three months to live or three years.
The only "proof "you can possibly give, if that person you have done healing
on is cured[ i.e. the tumour has actually DISAPPEARED]
the result of the tests , scans, blood tests etc. and then doctors
scratching their heads, is very tenuous.
what do you say "oh well I just prayed etc." I am very sad that this is
not something easy to do , and the cases where this happens are unusual.
No there is no scientific proof., as do how it is done, just that , yes it
has happened.
You have tried to twist what I have said, I tried to say that there are a
lot of things in life which are mysterious and inexplicable.
Things which cannot be explained, maybe things we are not meant to know.
Gea Jones
Dan Pressnell
> the last thing i expected was to find intellectuals argueing.
> exchanging ideas.
> IT IS VERY INHIBITING.
> the
> names of the groups ]
> cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
> would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
>
Did that happen to you?
Just curious.
Dan
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5607cc9f.02011...@posting.google.com...
to dan,
yes, all the time, it seems to be that people in the groups , generally,
want cut and dried, scientifically explained proven facts about things
which are often completely inexplicable.
a lot of my experiences have been witnessed by other people but that is not
proof.
so i feel rather lost,
there are people who ridicule, swear, insult and yet
they are in these groups, i am not really sure why,
maybe if they could stop attacking a lot of people would come forward
with their interesting, inexplicable experiences,
gea
Dan Pressnell
> "Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not
innappropriate
> for
> > > the
> > > names of the groups ]
> > > cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
> > > would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
> > > or say, yes that has happened to me?
> > >
> > > JUST CURIOUS
> >
> > Did that happen to you?
> >
> > Just curious.
> >
> > Dan
>
> to dan,
> yes, all the time, it seems to be that people in the groups , generally,
> want cut and dried, scientifically explained proven facts about things
> which are often completely inexplicable.
> a lot of my experiences have been witnessed by other people but that is
not
> proof.
> so i feel rather lost,
> there are people who ridicule, swear, insult and yet
> they are in these groups, i am not really sure why,
> maybe if they could stop attacking a lot of people would come forward
> with their interesting, inexplicable experiences,
So what angels have you seen? What dead have you talked to? How many
people have you cured of cancer? How many ghosts have you seen?
This is amazing.
Dan
Hilander
From: "gea" <gea @.com>
> The only "proof "you can possibly give, if that person you have done
healing
> on is cured[ i.e. the tumour has actually DISAPPEARED]
> the result of the tests , scans, blood tests etc. and then doctors
> scratching their heads, is very tenuous.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
Are you saying it is too much work to 'prove' a person is cured?
Don't the people you 'cure' go back to the doctor?
Yes, it is work. To keep records and have information documented (doctor
records every person that is sent to you with what type of cancer, staging
and histology as well as prognosis under conventional treatment). To submit
your techniques to observation and scrutinty by outside parties. To get a
statistical rate of 'success'.
It's work. It can be done.
What it sounds like you're saying is that it is too much work for you and
you can't be bothered. And instead of saying that you'd rather blame your
laziness on a fantasy rationalization that "it doesn't matter" because it
can't be proved [*your* conclusion].
> You have tried to twist what I have said, I tried to say that there are a
> lot of things in life which are mysterious and inexplicable.
> Things which cannot be explained, maybe things we are not meant to know.
How do you know which things are not meant to be known?
You come across as advocating that "ignorance is bliss".
How do you determine which things are worth 'knowing' and which aren't?
Why do you bother to read cards for others or for yourself if you really
believe that 'ignorance is bliss'? How do you decide which elements in a
reading are 'meant to be known' and which ones aren't? How do you decide if
a reading overall is 'meant to be known'?
If you believe that there are things in life that are mysterious and
inexplicable.....things that can't be explained......why would you read
cards at all? How do you know that what is being 'revealled' by the cards
is what you or the querent is "meant to know"?
What is your criteria for grouping something under 'ignorance'? Absolving
it from any kind of study or concideration?
Tea
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Hilander" <hila...@block.lightspeed.ca> wrote in message
news:SOY18.52835$O3.10...@news1.telusplanet.net...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gea" <gea @.com>
> > The only "proof "you can possibly give, if that person you have done
> healing
> > on is cured[ i.e. the tumour has actually DISAPPEARED]
> > the result of the tests , scans, blood tests etc. and then doctors
> > scratching their heads, is very tenuous.
>
> I don't understand what you're saying here.
"no, that is very clear, in fact if you said you were from another planet I
would believe you. your total inability to grasp anything that I have
said is not conducive to my feeling that I would want to tell you anything
personal or sensitive at all,
you seem so hostile and aggressive, insulting and rude,
gea jones"
White Rabbit
lately I sow in TV about Lourdes ( not Madonna's daughter)
the site in France nearby the Spanish border where the Virgin
appeared in 1900 about to 3 young shepherds
Well
according their statistics some people is cured in an absolutely incredible
way that church after long researches defines as "miracles" as none
scientific
explanation can solve the mystery
The last one was a french man of about 60 years old that when went back at
the Hotel with his wheel chair , as he had a terminal stage of Alzheimer
went to
bed to rest as tired ..he felt very chilly all over and when later on he felt
better he
wanted to get out of bed and he realized that he was walking normally ..
Apparently after medical tests Alzheimer was gone!
Many doctors were interviewed and in their opinion there
is no explanation and some of them
argued * it might come back again *( the illness)
he will be probably accepted as " miracle"
According statistic the people that has the highest numbers of miracles are
French ...
The factor of CHILL is something that is reported
something unusual /paranormal is happening !
Theo
Hilander wrote:
--
White Rabbit
Theo
melisande
> "gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message
> > if i say i have seen angels,had visions etc [ surely not innappropriate
> for
> > the
> > names of the groups ]
> > cured cancer, seen loads of ghosts, talk to the dead,
> > would you look in a book ? ask me to prove it ?
>
Cancer is a good example of a domain where using knives and scalpels
judiciously can have a beneficial effect.
Are you the same Tea that was posting back in 1996 (I've been
reading a discussion between Tea and Nigel Cooper that's very interesting).
Melisande
>
>
Charles Gregory
This is usenet - the concept of 'intrusion' doesn't exist. :-)
: ok assuming that the shears story is real.
: so what is going a person to do with such a power ?
Well, for starters, let's not presume that the 'power' is a controllable
event unless that is stated (and then I'd be darned suspicious). Most
instances of psycho kinetic effects, even with a degree of deliberate
desire to cause them, occur at random, and usually only under certain
poorly defined conditions of emotional stress. The shears were broken
virtually by accident - the person who dropped them got angry and shouted
'screw you' at the scissors as they fell. On its own, one might be
inclined to think the damage was accidental, despite the fact tha metal
objects don't usually shatter from merely being dropped. But the
phenomenon was accompanied by a loud 'thump' that I heard from outside the
house, so loud that I thought a bookcase had fallen over inside. And later
on we found a few objects in the fridge that had been subjected to a
strong lateral force in the direction away from where the scissors were
dropped. Altogether, quite a convincing set of 'evidence' that something
'weird' happened.
But as I pointed out in my first post, none of this can be caleld
'evidence' when presenting these events to a neutral observer. It relies
upon the abilities of the first-hand observer to record and report.
And this is exactly what the typical 'skeptic' refuses to trust.
: Benting shears or knives or spoon in the market fair or on TV ?
: is it useful for what ?
: this is a question I always wonted to have an answer to ..
: maybe will find here?
What use is lightning? It is something that just happens. Golfers can
occasionally make it happen TO them, but it is still essentially a random
phenomenon of nature. If we ever learn how to control or artifically
generate these 'powers', we may discover we have something as useful as
electricity at our command. But it is only science fiction to speculate on
what might be possible when we understand so little about these things.
Charles Gregory
: magic whatever
: unusual thing occurs, and get excited about and refuse to think, and
: do not try to see
: if they take theirs dreams for realities!
Every now and then I let my imagination run wild (usually in a fenced park
to keep it safe! (grin)), and wonder if the Australian Aborigine have it
right, and our dreams DO have a kind of reality. But yeah, I agree when
people live their whole lives in the 'fantasy world' it isn't good. I've
been there. Back in the early 80's a 'spiritual entity' communicated with
me via various 'channels' and delivered a very interesting 'mix' of short
term predictions about my life that were amazingly accurate, and long term
predictions about 'world disaster' in 1989 that were, rather obviously,
woefully wrong. So I've learned to take all this stuff with a big 'grain
of salt'.
But it really helps me be tolerant when I realize how EASY it is to be
convinced of various 'wrong' things by 'right' circumstances....
Charles Gregory
: Those that have only presumptions, assumptions, expectations, and
: suppositions have not begun to inquire.
I'd beg to differ. I've been 'inquiring' for a long time. And even thought
I may have gathered some well-defined observations, there is still nothing
but preusmptions et al. to try to explain the phenomena.
: I am from alt.tarot. By the very nature of its subject, alt.paranormal
: has different standards than alt.tarot regarding proving facts. Tarot
: deals with many provable things. The paranormal does not.
Hmmm. Curious. What things would you consider 'provable'? In my limited
experience with the Tarot I have occasionally been 'very accurate', but
its very difficult to 'prove' that it was more than 'coincidence'.
: Gea has a little history in alt.tarot of stating her delusional beliefs
: as if they were facts. Not about psychic things, but about concrete
: Tarot things (and related occult subjects) that simply are not facts and
: are refutable.
From other threads of conversation, I presume you are referring to known
historical and symbolic information? I've not studied extensively, but
recognize that these aspects of Tarot are fairly wellesablished.
: That's fine. That's what your alt.paranormal newsgroup is for. It's not
: what alt.tarot is for.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to start a discussion on the shears, bu merely use
it as a quick example of the 'grey area' where 'backing up ones point' can
be difficult for lack of *acceptable* evidence.
: Which is exactly why I wrote: 'I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go
: away."' I'm not interested in it, but I respect others' rights to be
: interested in it.
Not that I'm anyone's mother, but saying "go away" suggests that they
leave a particular place (forum/group?) which is interfering with the
rights of others on that same group to be interested. But I get the
impression thayou were expressing a general sentiment for alt.tarot, so I
won't push the point.
: > : I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
: > So would I, to you. If only because you think someone with a genuine
: > inquiring mind should stop inquiring. Bye bye.
: haha That is genuinely funny. You have merely presumed that I think
: that.
You told someone else to 'go away'. Within the context of the postings
visible in this thread, that person appears to have an inquiring mind and
be making an inquiry. You have therefore told someone with (the appearance
of) a genuine inquiring mind to stop inquiring (at least in this
location). I think it's a fair presumption that you *think* what you post.
If you don't think this, then I invite you to explain your particular
meaning in 'go away' that is not merely meant to stifle the other's
speech. Perhaps you do not see them as 'inquiring'?
: Regularly challenging one's assumptions and beliefs is a skill I've
: advocated for a long time now.
As long as the challenge is intended to evoke discussion and the
realization of the faults in another's logic, and does not ultimately
rest upon unproven personal belief, then that is good. But there
is no challenge offered by just telling someone to go away.
Charles Gregory
: Did that happen to you?
: Just curious.
Geez, Dan, that's not like you. Usually you can post your sarcastic
ridicule without having any firm idea of what a person has actually
experienced/observed.
Charles Gregory
: to dan,
: yes, all the time, it seems to be that people in the groups , generally,
: want cut and dried, scientifically explained proven facts about things
: which are often completely inexplicable.
: a lot of my experiences have been witnessed by other people but that is not
: proof.
: so i feel rather lost,
: there are people who ridicule, swear, insult and yet
: they are in these groups, i am not really sure why,
: maybe if they could stop attacking a lot of people would come forward
: with their interesting, inexplicable experiences,
: gea
You are either very sweet and innocent, or you have just done a better job
of 'zinging' Dan than I ever could. He's probably one of the worst
offenders for flaming and ridicule in alt.paranormal, and you just
described him perfectly, and added the same question that he never
answers: Why he is in a group like a.p when he has no intent to discuss
the phenomena - he doesn't even acknowledge its possibility as a real
phenomena in our world. He just wants to drive people off with ridicule.
So, yes, Dan, why do you post in a group where you have no interest or
belief in the subject?
Uncle Nono
proof in anyway, but the reason for my belief in the power of God, spiritual
gifts, and the many dimensions I belief we all live with and in.
In the mission field (I used to be a missionary for the Mormon Church, no
longer LDS by choice), I had some real dangerous situations that my mission
president intentionally placed me in. I guess I was a real jerk out there,
but in the process my intent has always been to serve my God with the
deepest humility that was possible for a man to have. Over the years and
since then, I have encountered numerous angels. One day, when you join us
live in my chat room, you might ask me to share the story of when I was on
duty as a chief adjutant security guard.
As for the dead, I have never encountered the dead except through dreams,
visits in a physical form, and in some of the most conspicuous, inexplicable
fashions. If you ever join me live in my chat room, remind me to tell you
about my experience in the Salt Lake Temple when I shaked that young man's
hand who walked away and disappeared through the wall.
As for cancer, I was blessed to save my wife's life from adenocarcinoma.
She was given two years to live in April 1998. By studying what cancer
really means and what a cancer eats, by May 1998, the cancer retarded. By
sticking to this diet where we could eat as much as we wanted so long as we
did not feed the cancer, the doctor at Cedar Sinai was astounded that there
was not once trace of the cancer in her.
Ghosts are around us all the time. Auric people depending on the degree and
type of auric viewing they have are very sensitive to the dimensions that
share this Earth. I happen to be one of them. However, I find it
inappropriate to disturb the other dimensions, but what we call ghosts are
not ghosts at all. They are nothing less that what we are stuck between
this dimension and one of the other dimension shared on this planet. My
experience with them started out as something to be afraid of because of my
ignorance back then, but understanding what their make up is causes the fear
to fade. That's why I find myself able to communicate with the other
dimensions of time and space when I find a lost or confused soul. I don't
claim to be psychic or anything out of the ordinary, but I do believe that
God gives each of us spiritual gifts to help us along our spiritual faith
journey.
Is it amazing? Hardly. It's a fact of life and a reality that has nothing
to prove.
--
Uncle Nono
uncle...@verizon.net
Our Family Website: http://communities.msn.com/TheKingstonFamilyWebsite
Dan Pressell: So what angels have you seen? What dead have you talked to?
Hilander
> Are you the same Tea that was posting back in 1996 (I've been
> reading a discussion between Tea and Nigel Cooper that's very
interesting).
Could be. As time in 'real life' allows, I pop in here every now and then
since about '96 [or maybe even '95?].
But then, 'stuff happens' and I have to let go of some interests.
alt.tarot is one of several things that get put away until things settle
down again.
I've learned alot more since '96 and anything I may have said then may not
represent what I think today. *smile*
Tea
White Rabbit
Charles Gregory wrote:
I am convinced of nothing.
I had many "premonitions" to call them this way, they are dreams or "pop up"
ideas in my mind ,
I had about my exams about some diseases I endured ,about lottery
about my wife pregnancy and so on.. I know sometimes these "revelations" happens
when they want not when I should need their help ..
so I thinks that sometimes we get in a mental "status" that allows
our unconscious mind to plug into a collective knowledge where we retrieve the
data needed .
Sometimes I connected after the event unfolded the precursors signs of it ..
but if we start thing that everything might be a sign of a forthcoming event
,we are ready to get completely skizo ..
I made dreams about a possible World war and was connected with the actual
middle east situation
it was 30 years ago and until now nothing happened ..
Another time I used a sort of Ouji board with a very gifted friends , I was
18,
what we retrieve was interesting .. but I see no use to try to know "more"
Another time I "perfectly felt" the awareness of another "myself" but into
another
continuum , as if a channel linked our mutual consciousness . it was really
chilling the bones
Aborigines have a tradition and are grown with this knowledge and are guided by
shamans..
so they know how to judge what they feel or dream .. we do not !
If humans would have a possibility to have such a gift and make it steady at
will
would it be a gift or a damnation ?
About that "entity" that talked with you .. how were you mentally in that
period , fine , under stress, looking for solutions?
thanks
White Rabbit
Charles Gregory wrote:
> White Rabbit ("=?iso-8859-1?Q?ByJoke=AE?="@ch.inter.net) wrote:
> : sorry to intrude
>
> This is usenet - the concept of 'intrusion' doesn't exist. :-)
>
> : ok assuming that the shears story is real.
> : so what is going a person to do with such a power ?
>
> Well, for starters, let's not presume that the 'power' is a controllable
> event unless that is stated (and then I'd be darned suspicious). Most
> instances of psycho kinetic effects, even with a degree of deliberate
> desire to cause them, occur at random, and usually only under certain
> poorly defined conditions of emotional stress. The shears were broken
> virtually by accident - the person who dropped them got angry and shouted
> 'screw you' at the scissors as they fell. On its own, one might be
> inclined to think the damage was accidental, despite the fact tha metal
> objects don't usually shatter from merely being dropped. But the
> phenomenon was accompanied by a loud 'thump' that I heard from outside the
> house, so loud that I thought a bookcase had fallen over inside. And later
> on we found a few objects in the fridge that had been subjected to a
> strong lateral force in the direction away from where the scissors were
> dropped. Altogether, quite a convincing set of 'evidence' that something
> 'weird' happened.
>
Interesting
>
> But as I pointed out in my first post, none of this can be caleld
> 'evidence' when presenting these events to a neutral observer. It relies
> upon the abilities of the first-hand observer to record and report.
> And this is exactly what the typical 'skeptic' refuses to trust.
>
> : Benting shears or knives or spoon in the market fair or on TV ?
> : is it useful for what ?
> : this is a question I always wonted to have an answer to ..
> : maybe will find here?
>
> What use is lightning? It is something that just happens. Golfers can
> occasionally make it happen TO them, but it is still essentially a random
> phenomenon of nature. If we ever learn how to control or artifically
> generate these 'powers', we may discover we have something as useful as
> electricity at our command. But it is only science fiction to speculate on
> what might be possible when we understand so little about these things.
well we do not master electricity we use it ,we can generate it , but we do
not
even know what it is in reality or how it works
but is something you can switch en interruptor and electricity is over
if the mental is the origine of this energy it is another thing and as it
might happen in a random sequence ..well better be careful :-)
once I took out of my neck the gold necklace I wear
this necklace has tourmaline ring carved in the shape of a curled the
dragon holding
the pink pearl in his claws.. an old piece
I was going to do some yoga,,
I took my chain and put the pendent on the leather passport cover on my
night table
not in a lump but gently..
I turned my back and I heard a short sound and the dragon shattered in 3
pieces ..!
nobody was in the room beside me ,, no electric appliances tv or music the
sound come from nowhere
I asked a buddhist monk that I know and she said that probably the
ring absorbed a negative energy directed on me!
no more .. but the fuck is that my pendent is broken !
Theo
..
Hilander
> HI have you ever heard of "miracles?"
Yes. Every second I'm alive is a 'miracle'.......when you stop to consider
how many things in the Universe must come together and function to allow me
to Live [nevermind exist].
But what does that have to do with negating seeking knowledge and wisdom?
Because something is 'unknown' currently, does that mean one should not seek
to understand it?
Does that mean that just because it may be very difficult to grasp the
concept of the 'whole' that one shouldn't even bother to learn from the
'parts'?
Asking someone to back up a claim with 'facts' [or 'proof'] is a way of
trying to understand the 'parts'.
When a person refuses to do so, or even try, they do not bolster whatever
claim they are making [they don't necessarily negate it either]......the
only thing that they do prove is that they are ignorant.
There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. It just means that you don't
know.
But it is something else altogether if a person is ignorant AND *refuses* to
learn with the argument that because they don't know it now, they will never
know it, and maybe nobody else should know it ever either.
Talk about killing conversation.
Poor Sophia, she's been gagged and had her eyes gouged out.
Tea
Hilander
> said is not conducive to my feeling that I would want to tell you anything
> personal or sensitive at all,
> you seem so hostile and aggressive, insulting and rude,
You'll never know.
Tea
White Rabbit
Hilander wrote:
it is funny that you talk about Sophia it was exactly that name that en entity
told me it was her name ( Ouija board)
and that she loved me a lot and no more!
I gave my daughter 15 years later that name as second name..
You are right we should be more curious and I am far too much curious for
my possibilities running short of time
Life is short and universe and its mysteries gigantic.. so I must have
priorities .. more linked to this earthen plane..
BTW I think we should not bother our friends in Alt Tarot as these topics are
off topic here
thanks Theo
Hieronymous707
>I am convinced of nothing.
I'm not sure how you got to that point, but okay, good. Now at least we both
know where were starting.
>.. but I see no use to try to know "more"
See, now that's just lazy. I'm sure that if you think about it just the least
little bit, you can think of plenty of reasons why knowing more might be
useful.
>If humans would have a possibility to have such a gift and make it
>steady at will would it be a gift or a damnation?
Depends on how you look at it, I guess ... lazy, I mean.
Aleister Crowley was supposedly "---the laziest man on three continents!", and
"reviled by the Brittish press as the wickedest man on earth."
Whether he was gifted or damned is all a matter of how you look at things ...
well, that and of course it's important to consider how he may have looked at
things ... and of course, you have to consider that in context of what he
actually accomplished and when. (He did put out a body of work, you know.)
And you also have to consider the effect his "body of work" had, and has, on
his/our environment. That's a very important indicator.
Now, stick all that in your rectificator and smoke it.
I'd be interested in what you come up with.
-hi-
Hieronymous707
> BTW I think we should not bother our friends in Alt Tarot as these
> topics are off topic here
I don't happen to concur with that sentiment, but you'll have to decide for
yourself.
-hi-
Hilander
are
> off topic here
Are they? You sure? *smile*
Does wisdom and knowledge not have their place in Tarot?
It could be argued that two of the Majors embody those ideals: High
Priestess is wisdom, Magician is knowledge.
Why are they included in the Majors? What is the significance of their
presence there?
Then we can go into "What is Tarot?".
If Tarot is an Art.....it is the Art of what?
A language? Of what?
Currently, I'm leaning towards the concept of Tarot as a philosophical
language.
Philosophy.......love of wisdom.
I am genuinely perplexed, then, by anyone who 'rejects' seeking wisdom and
yet claims to study or use Tarot.
Tea
Hieronymous707
>Are they? You sure? *smile*
>Does wisdom and knowledge not have their place in Tarot?
>It could be argued that two of the Majors embody those ideals: High
>Priestess is wisdom, Magician is knowledge.
>Why are they included in the Majors? What is the significance of their
>presence there?
>Then we can go into "What is Tarot?".
>If Tarot is an Art.....it is the Art of what?
>A language? Of what?
>Currently, I'm leaning towards the concept of Tarot as a philosophical
>language.
>Philosophy.......love of wisdom.
>I am genuinely perplexed, then, by anyone who 'rejects' seeking wisdom and
>yet claims to study or use Tarot.
>Tea
Hi, Tea.
...
This doesn't specifically relate to what you were talking to Theo about ...
well, maybe it does, in a way ...
And I really couldn't tell you exactly why I'm posting it now, or specifically
to you, as I have no idea what it means ...
I mean, I know what it means to me and why I'm posting it in the first place,
but I have no idea what it might mean to you, if it indeed means anything to
you at all. That's for you to decide ...
Anyway ...
Tell Patty that it wasn't her fault. I know she blames herself, and thinks
everyone else blames her, and feels real bad, but J. kept his promise (for some
reason, that's supposed to be a joke:-), that's all.
Good luck in B-town (whatever that means). Nursing is God's work.
...
I know, that sounds really silly, doesn't it.
-hi-
J. Cocker
>
> --
> Gea
> "Hilander" <hila...@block.lightspeed.ca> wrote in message
> news:SOY18.52835$O3.10...@news1.telusplanet.net...
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "gea" <gea @.com>
> > > The only "proof "you can possibly give, if that person you have
> > > done healing on is cured[ i.e. the tumour has actually
> > > DISAPPEARED] the result of the tests , scans, blood tests etc.
> > > and then doctors scratching their heads, is very tenuous.
> >
> > I don't understand what you're saying here.
>
> "no, that is very clear, in fact if you said you were from another
> planet I would believe you. your total inability to grasp anything
> that I have said is not conducive to my feeling that I would want
> to tell you anything personal or sensitive at all, you seem so
> hostile and aggressive, insulting and rude,
>
a question about it, they are being rude?
It certainly couldn't be because you're not making any sense.
Or is it just if someone disagrees you think they are rude.
--
Jane
'A thought for the day is more than most people can handle.'
Dan Pressnell
news:a2a0r4$cbu$6...@mohawk.hwcn.org...
> gea (gea@.com) wrote:
> So, yes, Dan, why do you post in a group where you have no interest or
> belief in the subject?
I wanted to read what she had to say. I guess you've scared her off now,
though.
Dan
Hieronymous707
>I wanted to read what she had to say.
>I guess you've scared her off now, though.
Not likely.
You don't know Gea.
...
You're not very good at this guessing thing, are you.
(That's a rhetorical question.)
-hi-
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HaU18.4910$Ee7.4...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> so if you are genuinely interested why didn't you reply to my private
email about 10 hours ago?
gea
>
>
Dan Pressnell
> > so if you are genuinely interested why didn't you reply to my private
> email about 10 hours ago?
Well, some of us have jobs to do, work for a living, etc.
I'm sorry.
Dan
Asiya
> Asiya (asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com) wrote:
> : Those that have only presumptions, assumptions, expectations, and
> : suppositions have not begun to inquire.
>
> I'd beg to differ. I've been 'inquiring' for a long time. And even
thought
> I may have gathered some well-defined observations, there is still
nothing
> but preusmptions et al. to try to explain the phenomena.
Theories are different from presumptions etc. As long as one remains
objective and has a healthy dose of skepticism, there's no problem.
> : I am from alt.tarot. By the very nature of its subject,
alt.paranormal
> : has different standards than alt.tarot regarding proving facts.
Tarot
> : deals with many provable things. The paranormal does not.
>
> Hmmm. Curious. What things would you consider 'provable'? In my
limited
> experience with the Tarot I have occasionally been 'very accurate',
but
> its very difficult to 'prove' that it was more than 'coincidence'.
By provable things, I meant historical and symbolic info. It would be
difficult to prove that accurate readings are nothing more than
coincidence. But then there's no need to prove it. :)
> : Gea has a little history in alt.tarot of stating her delusional
beliefs
> : as if they were facts. Not about psychic things, but about concrete
> : Tarot things (and related occult subjects) that simply are not facts
and
> : are refutable.
>
> From other threads of conversation, I presume you are referring to
known
> historical and symbolic information? I've not studied extensively, but
> recognize that these aspects of Tarot are fairly wellesablished.
Yes, that is why Gea has had such a hard time in alt.tarot.
> : > : I would say, "Good for you. Whatever. Go away."
> : > So would I, to you. If only because you think someone with a
genuine
> : > inquiring mind should stop inquiring. Bye bye.
>
> : haha That is genuinely funny. You have merely presumed that I
think
> : that.
>
> You told someone else to 'go away'. Within the context of the postings
> visible in this thread, that person appears to have an inquiring mind
and
> be making an inquiry. You have therefore told someone with (the
appearance
> of) a genuine inquiring mind to stop inquiring (at least in this
> location). I think it's a fair presumption that you *think* what you
post.
> If you don't think this, then I invite you to explain your particular
> meaning in 'go away' that is not merely meant to stifle the other's
> speech. Perhaps you do not see them as 'inquiring'?
Exactly. I meant that specifically for Gea. She advocates ignorance as
bliss. That is an affront to many occultists.
> : Regularly challenging one's assumptions and beliefs is a skill I've
> : advocated for a long time now.
>
> As long as the challenge is intended to evoke discussion and the
> realization of the faults in another's logic, and does not ultimately
> rest upon unproven personal belief, then that is good. But there
> is no challenge offered by just telling someone to go away.
As before, I meant that specifically for Gea. I've been very patient
with her, but there are limits.
Simply, I'm not interested in discussing the paranormal on the internet.
Now, when a "real world" friend of mine wants to talk about a paranormal
experience they had, I'm all ears. In fact, an old boyfriend of mine had
the ability of telekinesis. I don't deny the existence of certain
unexplainable things. People just need to be careful not to delude
themselves.
Asiya
**********
www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
Eat the meatballs to email me.
Wally Anglesea™
besides, if gea has cured cancer, then this is something we *all*
should know.
--
Find out about Australia's most dangerous Doomsday Cult:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/pebble.htm
How to Cook an Alien:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Alien_recipes.html
"You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down."
Dan Pressnell
news:o2kh4u47nu9bf0b9u...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:12:33 -0500, "Dan Pressnell"
> <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >"gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message
news:a2addg$9nc$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> >
> >> > so if you are genuinely interested why didn't you reply to my private
> >> email about 10 hours ago?
> >
> >Well, some of us have jobs to do, work for a living, etc.
> >
> >I'm sorry.
> >
> >Dan
>
> besides, if gea has cured cancer, then this is something we *all*
> should know.
What's even stranger is that one hour before she posted her criticism of me
that you see there, I did write email to her. Something smells funny.
And yes, I wonder why she would keep a cure for cancer a secret from the
rest of the world. How can she stand by while people suffer and die?
Dan
Asiya
> "Wally AngleseaT" <wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote in message
> news:o2kh4u47nu9bf0b9u...@4ax.com...
> >
> > should know.
>
> What's even stranger is that one hour before she posted her criticism
of me
> that you see there, I did write email to her. Something smells funny.
>
> And yes, I wonder why she would keep a cure for cancer a secret from
the
> rest of the world. How can she stand by while people suffer and die?
Exactly. That is why she says such questions are rude and aggressive,
and refuses to answer.
Dan Pressnell
news:a2akc1$25l$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > And yes, I wonder why she would keep a cure for cancer a secret from
> the
> > rest of the world. How can she stand by while people suffer and die?
>
> Exactly. That is why she says such questions are rude and aggressive,
> and refuses to answer.
I feel kind of bad about this now. For decades, countless researchers have
devoted their lives to finding a cure for cancer, working so hard.
Now we had an easy cure ready to be revealed to us, and I blew it by going
to work today and not answering email quickly enough.
I'm sorry, everybody!
Dan
Rhianna
Gregory) wrote:
<snip>
>offenders for flaming and ridicule in alt.paranormal, and you just
>described him perfectly, and added the same question that he never
>answers: Why he is in a group like a.p when he has no intent to discuss
>the phenomena - he doesn't even acknowledge its possibility as a real
>phenomena in our world. He just wants to drive people off with ridicule.
I think you are being unfair to Dan. I've been wishing that
he would post to alt.tarot since I started to post in alt.astrology a
few years ago. I always liked [the posts written by, the websites
created by, the humor of] Dan, Lou & Wally and was thrilled when they
recently started to cross post to alt.tarot. In terms of my
experience in alt.astrology & alt.paranormal, I always thought that
Dan was an interesting "persona" --- heck, I was the only "astrologer"
who appreciated the postings by P.Z. Meyers (I believe that is his
name, he is a Biology Professor)....
~Cheers~
Rhianna
http://www.pipeline.com/~rhianna/index.htm
Dan Pressnell
news:3c48dad8...@news.pipeline.com...
Mr. Gregory is just pissed that I was polite to the poster. He's just got
to have some excuse to moan and groan, and when he doesn't get it, he
invents bullshit.
Dan
Rhianna
<hila...@block.lightspeed.ca> wrote:
>Could be. As time in 'real life' allows, I pop in here every now and then
>since about '96 [or maybe even '95?].
>But then, 'stuff happens' and I have to let go of some interests.
>alt.tarot is one of several things that get put away until things settle
>down again.
>I've learned alot more since '96 and anything I may have said then may not
>represent what I think today. *smile*
Tea, I've always enjoyed reading your posts in alt.tarot.
~Cheers~
Rhianna
http://www.pipeline.com/~rhianna/index.htm
Paul
Charles Gregory wrote:
> So, yes, Dan, why do you post in a group where you have no interest or
> belief in the subject?
Maybe he, like me, has an interest in psychology. The psychic-brigade
are fantastic study cases. It's like the whole world of mental illness
and delusion in microcosm.
Paul
mike II
> Now we had an easy cure ready to be revealed to us, and I blew it by going
> to work today and not answering email quickly enough.
>
> I'm sorry, everybody!
brink of a new age for ALL mankind, and *YOU* blew it! Just think of
the countless generations who could've been spared needless suffering
and premature death if only *YOU* had the simple decency to be an
unemployed bum. Is it really asking that much? Couldn't be bothered to
find a more opportune time for this "work" business eh? I hope you're
happy.
Oh, yeah, I just hope you enjoy that PAYCHEQUE, email avoider!
<g>
mike II
--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ohm...@spots.ab.ca/\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/
Dan Pressnell
"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3C48E6CF...@eidosnet.co.uk...
Actually, I do it so losers like Charles Gregory won't feel deprived of a
target to unleash their hatred on.
If he's not displaying hatred, he's not living.
Dan
Dan Pressnell
news:3C4902C2...@spots.ab.ca...
> Dan Pressnell wrote:
>
> > Now we had an easy cure ready to be revealed to us, and I blew it by
going
> > to work today and not answering email quickly enough.
> >
> > I'm sorry, everybody!
>
> As well you should be. Here we were (emphasis on WERE), on the very
> brink of a new age for ALL mankind, and *YOU* blew it! Just think of
> the countless generations who could've been spared needless suffering
> and premature death if only *YOU* had the simple decency to be an
> unemployed bum. Is it really asking that much? Couldn't be bothered to
> find a more opportune time for this "work" business eh? I hope you're
> happy.
>
> Oh, yeah, I just hope you enjoy that PAYCHEQUE, email avoider!
Well, it's not like I avoided the eamil, it's that I didn't reply at exactly
the right time.
I hope others learn from my lesson, though.
Dan
mike II
> Well, it's not like I avoided the eamil, it's that I didn't reply at exactly
> the right time.
>
> I hope others learn from my lesson, though.
the opportunity to become wealthy beyond my wildest dreams, and I
screwed up. I still kick myself for not returning the magazine
subscription forms before the deadline. The automatic entry into the
contest would have set me up for life! I cry every time I think about
it. They even provided the bloody stamps showing the magazine covers
available, so I didn't even have to write anything!
Stupid.Stupid.Stupid.
White Rabbit
Hieronymous707 wrote:
> >From: White Rabbit
>
> >I am convinced of nothing.
>
> I'm not sure how you got to that point, but okay, good. Now at least we both
> know where were starting.
>
> >.. but I see no use to try to know "more"
>
> And you also have to consider the effect his "body of work" had, and has, on
> his/our environment. That's a very important indicator.
>
> Now, stick all that in your rectificator and smoke it.
>
> I'd be interested in what you come up with.
>
> -hi-
exaust smoke
theo
White Rabbit
stated that you are right !
we talk about guitar , racial problems,anthropology , tv psychic star ,
paranormal
( I would like to talk about sex but it is not wellcome)
well do you want to know my aunti Clara story ?
Theo
Hieronymous707 wrote:
--
White Rabbit
Hilander wrote:
> "White Rabbit" <"ByJokeŽ"@ch.inter.net> wrote in message
> > BTW I think we should not bother our friends in Alt Tarot as these topics
> are
> > off topic here
>
> Are they? You sure? *smile*
you're right , it is a whole off topic here!
>
> Does wisdom and knowledge not have their place in Tarot?
> It could be argued that two of the Majors embody those ideals: High
> Priestess is wisdom, Magician is knowledge.
> Why are they included in the Majors? What is the significance of their
> presence there?
> Then we can go into "What is Tarot?".
> If Tarot is an Art.....it is the Art of what?
> A language? Of what?
> Currently, I'm leaning towards the concept of Tarot as a philosophical
> language.
> Philosophy.......love of wisdom.
> I am genuinely perplexed, then, by anyone who 'rejects' seeking wisdom and
> yet claims to study or use Tarot.
>
> Tea
if Tarots means introspection and you have to sink into your subconscious to
"feel " what tarots
suggest to your mind when reading them , yes they are all what you mentioned
above ..
and it takes time to understand all that
What amazes me is the aggressivness that Tarot apparently rises in people that
study them
Only few of them look really "wise" and tolerant !
Theo
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Nr728.13552$Y17.8...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> Dear Dan,
I sent a private reply to you which didn't get through.
As every one is so interested I am not quite sure how to word this,
firstly,please, all of the "ignorant Gea brigade" don't get nasty and ,
jealous."
Obviously the cancer is of the most interest to you so I will tell you a
little.The three people I cured , were all women with breast cancer.
I do it through my own particular form of "healing", I think I inherited
it from my grandmother, who also did healing and my great,great grandmother
,who did healing.
I trained in london with someone called Frank Bowyer, who taught me
an incredible amount of new techniques linked to visualization, he had
stopped being a business psychologist at 50, because he felt it was
unethical to help big businesses make huge amounts of money.
he developed a whole new system of thought called "Mind System 7"
He taught it to me for two years and wanted me to carry on his work.
I have incooperated his system into my particular form of healing.
I believe in God and I feel the energy coming into me when I do healing,
I get a lot of sensation in my hands, and I simply hold my hands around the
affected area, or whevere I can feel, what I call negative energy
which feels like iron filings hitting my hands as it comes out of the body.
then I use a very concentrated form of visualization.
people donate what they can, if they can.
I worked for two years with Hector Christie, who has alovely park
called Tapeley Park. His parents own Glyndebourne opera house.
Hector is a very good healer and we work well together.
But he says i taught him healing [ which is silly because he could already
do it, just a bit of fine tuning, and confidence was all i added]
now there is no mystery to what i do.
the women i cured were the tip of the iceberg, they all went back to their
specialists and when examined the tumours had disappeared and
stayed that way, as far as i know, one i saw again after 10 years.
a lot of people can do healing and as this is a tarot card group i don't
want to fill up too much space , although i do feel that all of the things i
do are interrelated,
i generally see cancer in tarot readings, or any other illnesses, so if it
happens to be there i will always offer to do healing,
as for all of the strange follow up guinea pig type trials, i never thought
of it in that way.all i was concentarating on was making people get better.
also the people i see are in confidence which i have a thing about. but
there is word of mouth so it has got around.
Gea Jones
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3C48E6CF...@eidosnet.co.uk...
>
>
Paul, you drove me out of uk.rec.psychic. i can safely say you know NOTHING
about tarot.
gea
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3C48E6CF...@eidosnet.co.uk...
>
>
Paul, you drove me out of uk.rec.psychic. i can safely say you know NOTHING
about tarot.
gea
Evil Noodle
> Dan Pressnell wrote:
>
> > Well, it's not like I avoided the eamil, it's that I didn't reply at
exactly
> > the right time.
> >
> > I hope others learn from my lesson, though.
>
> I wish they would. I too, was scarred by being tardy. Years ago I had
> the opportunity to become wealthy beyond my wildest dreams, and I
> screwed up. I still kick myself for not returning the magazine
> subscription forms before the deadline. The automatic entry into the
> contest would have set me up for life! I cry every time I think about
> it. They even provided the bloody stamps showing the magazine covers
> available, so I didn't even have to write anything!
> Stupid.Stupid.Stupid.
>
>
with himself after such a selfish act, and as for you Mike...shameful.
Asiya
> Hilander wrote:
> >
> > Does wisdom and knowledge not have their place in Tarot?
> > It could be argued that two of the Majors embody those ideals: High
> > Priestess is wisdom, Magician is knowledge.
> > Why are they included in the Majors? What is the significance of
their
> > presence there?
> > Then we can go into "What is Tarot?".
> > If Tarot is an Art.....it is the Art of what?
> > A language? Of what?
> > Currently, I'm leaning towards the concept of Tarot as a
philosophical
> > language.
> > Philosophy.......love of wisdom.
> > I am genuinely perplexed, then, by anyone who 'rejects' seeking
wisdom and
> > yet claims to study or use Tarot.
>
people that
> study them
> Only few of them look really "wise" and tolerant !
Aggression and wisdom are not always mutually exclusive traits. And,
aggression does not have to imply intolerance.
Evil Noodle
As opposed by your arrogant denial of the basic tenets of Spiritual
belief and an alternate lifestyle encompassing them.
Being psychic and a medium myself I have often been accused of
delusional thoughts and bizzare actions, something I refute utterly
and will no doubt dissprove when those silly stalking cases come to
trial.
If my guide the divine El Muah Fudh tells me to commit minor acts
of arson, who am I to deny him some form of expression in this
world, after all, it's not like he has a body and can do it himself
any more is it?
Yours is the kind of blinkered prejudice that had witches burnt at
the stake, back in the time when that was a cool thing to do,
please try to be a little more open minded when dealing with more
evolved people like myself.
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a2akc1$25l$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> asiya,
i have written my reply , a few posts down,
i am not going to degrade this by responding to your sarcastic
remarks,
gea
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kQ228.12765$Y17.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> Dan,
you may find this hard to believe but healing is incredibly hard work.
it is absolutely exhausting,
i once collapsed from exhaustion and had to rest for a couple of months,
because it is something "intangible" it doesn,t mean it doesn't require
certain skills, a gift, learning, and then all of the responsibility ,
i am not jesus,
when i do healing it requires so much concentration it is like making your
mind into a laser beam,
and that takes years of training.
Gea
>
>
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:yk428.12934$Y17.7...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> dan,
i have thought about what you said,
i have done some healing on the internet and it has worked, please don't ask
me to explain
all i can say is there is no time or distance in the spiritual world,
gea jones
>
>
Dan Pressnell
>
>
> --
> Gea
> "Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:kQ228.12765$Y17.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> > "gea" <gea @.com> wrote in message
> news:a2addg$9nc$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> >
> > > > so if you are genuinely interested why didn't you reply to my
private
> > > email about 10 hours ago?
> >
> > Well, some of us have jobs to do, work for a living, etc.
> >
> > I'm sorry.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > Dan,
> you may find this hard to believe but healing is incredibly hard work.
Why did it take you so long to reply? I mean, you sure attacked me for not
replying quickly enough, so why are your replies taking so long? And is it
a requirement that you attack people the way you did me, in order to be a
healer? Or is it that you simply bought into Charles Gregory's trick of
getting you to attack me?
Dan
Asiya
> "Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:a2akc1$25l$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > "Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:yk428.12934$Y17.7...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> > > "Wally AngleseaT" <wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote in message
> > > news:o2kh4u47nu9bf0b9u...@4ax.com...
> > > >
> > > > besides, if gea has cured cancer, then this is something we
*all*
> > > > should know.
> > >
> > > What's even stranger is that one hour before she posted her
criticism
> > of me
> > > that you see there, I did write email to her. Something smells
funny.
> > >
> > > And yes, I wonder why she would keep a cure for cancer a secret
from
> > the
> > > rest of the world. How can she stand by while people suffer and
die?
> >
> > Exactly. That is why she says such questions are rude and
aggressive,
> > and refuses to answer.
>
> i have written my reply , a few posts down,
As stated previously, I'm not asking for proof of - nor even interested
in hearing - your paranormal stories. It does not matter to me if they
are truth, lies, or your own delusions.
> i am not going to degrade this by responding to your sarcastic
> remarks,
Those particular remarks were not sarcastic.
@.com gea
--
Gea
"Dan Pressnell" <dan_pr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZAc28.14550$Y17.9...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> Dear Dan,
no no tricks , or anything, i am very sorry i jumped at you for not
replying, i was having so much trouble getting an email to you and this
group has made me so defensive.
so apologies.
the timing is rather strange, the normal pattern is i leave some kind of a
post , before i go to bed, then when i check the group in the morning
[preferably after a cup of tea ], there are sometimes a lot of conflict.ing
replies .
i don't know what the time difference is between here[ the uk ] and
america, all over, australia, and canada.
so any delays are usually time things.
i can understand that it must have been very annoying for me to say
something and not follow it up, but i am so used to being insulted[not by
you] but other people in the group, and i feel like if i don't reel off some
neat little reply everyone will start telling me the rules
you have always been perfectly kind and polite to me,
i must just work out how to email a bit better,
best wishes
Gea Jones
Wally Anglesea™
Go here. You can win a million bucks:
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
if you don't need the million, donate it to a charity.
> I trained in london with someone called Frank Bowyer, who taught me
>an incredible amount of new techniques linked to visualization, he had
>stopped being a business psychologist at 50, because he felt it was
>unethical to help big businesses make huge amounts of money.
>he developed a whole new system of thought called "Mind System 7"
>
>He taught it to me for two years and wanted me to carry on his work.
>
>I have incooperated his system into my particular form of healing.
>I believe in God and I feel the energy coming into me when I do healing,
>I get a lot of sensation in my hands, and I simply hold my hands around the
>affected area, or whevere I can feel, what I call negative energy
>which feels like iron filings hitting my hands as it comes out of the body.
>then I use a very concentrated form of visualization.
>
>people donate what they can, if they can.
you can donate a million bucks to afghani kids with their limbs blown
off by landmines, and at the same time, prove paranormal powers,
putting all doubters to shame.
--
Find out about Australia's most dangerous Doomsday Cult:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/pebble.htm
How to Cook an Alien:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Alien_recipes.html
"You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down."
Wally Anglesea™
<evil....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Paul" <osi...@eidosnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:3C48E6CF...@eidosnet.co.uk...
>>
>>
>> Charles Gregory wrote:
>>
>> > So, yes, Dan, why do you post in a group where you have no interest or
>> > belief in the subject?
>>
>> Maybe he, like me, has an interest in psychology. The psychic-brigade
>> are fantastic study cases. It's like the whole world of mental illness
>> and delusion in microcosm.
>>
>> Paul
>
>As opposed by your arrogant denial of the basic tenets of Spiritual
>belief and an alternate lifestyle encompassing them.
>Being psychic and a medium myself I have often been accused of
>delusional thoughts and bizzare actions, something I refute utterly
>and will no doubt dissprove when those silly stalking cases come to
>trial.
How about signing up for the JREF challenge the=n. Kill 2 birds with
one stone. If you don't want the million dollars, you can donate it to
a charity of your chioce.
>If my guide the divine El Muah Fudh tells me to commit minor acts
>of arson, who am I to deny him some form of expression in this
>world, after all, it's not like he has a body and can do it himself
>any more is it?
>
>Yours is the kind of blinkered prejudice that had witches burnt at
>the stake,
It's funny how it's the woo-woos who trot this old saw out at every
opportunity.
Skeptics never burned anyone at the stake. It's only silly
superstitious people who believe in weird shit that let that happen.
>< back in the time when that was a cool thing to do,
>please try to be a little more open minded when dealing with more
>evolved people like myself.
I've an open mind. Prove you are psychic, take the Jref Challenge.
Dan Pressnell
> Go here. You can win a million bucks:
>
> http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
>
> if you don't need the million, donate it to a charity.
You replied to late to tell her that. Your replies to her messages or posts
must be immediate, or it won't work.
Dan
Dan Pressnell
> > Why did it take you so long to reply? I mean, you sure attacked me for
> not
> > replying quickly enough, so why are your replies taking so long? And is
> it
> > a requirement that you attack people the way you did me, in order to be
a
> > healer? Or is it that you simply bought into Charles Gregory's trick of
> > getting you to attack me?
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > Dear Dan,
> no no tricks , or anything, i am very sorry i jumped at you for not
> replying, i was having so much trouble getting an email to you and this
> group has made me so defensive.
I don't accept your apology at all. This is just a bunch of bullshit you
are posting.
If you are indeed having problems getting your email to work, maybe it's
best you not attack others for failing to send you email whenever you snap
your fingers, your Holiness. If you are going to attack me for being
polite, then I won't be polite.
Got that, bitch?
Dan
P.S. Is this reply fast enough for you?
Paul
gea wrote:
> Paul, you drove me out of uk.rec.psychic. i can safely say you know NOTHING
> about tarot.
> gea
I didn't drive you out of anywhere. I was always perfectly polite to
you, despite your ranting.
I know enough about Tarot to know that it's utter ridiculous.
Paul
Paul
Evil Noodle wrote:
> If my guide the divine El Muah Fudh tells me to commit minor acts
> of arson, who am I to deny him some form of expression in this
> world, after all, it's not like he has a body and can do it himself
> any more is it?
LOL :)
Paul