In article
<
e1ab8217-ef45-44f6...@v22g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <
manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mar 22, 6:42=3DA0am,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <
39a1cc07-1538-459f-b2a6-7683dbdff...@i2g2000vbv.googlegroups.com>, D=
> evil=3D
> > > s
> >
> > > > Advocaat <
mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 21, 11:36=3D3DA0pm,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-685468.07112721032...@news.eternal-september=
> > > > > > > <
Jason-2003122320150...@67-150-126-219.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > =
3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-C3A30B.
18454920032...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > <
Jason-2003121257460...@67-150-120-21.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com=
> >,
> > > > > > > > > =
3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <fc79cbc3-75f8-4aad-b2c5-99bd9aaa0...@z31g2000vbt.googleg=
> roup=3D
> > >
s.co=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 20, 12:05=3D3D3DA0pm, tirebiter <dontspamme...@b=
> igfoot=3D
> > > .com> =3D3D
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 20, 3:44=3D3D3DA0am,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) =
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > > > <
f16a08c4-1904-4291-835e-77d9954d6...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.co=
> m>,
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It depends on what you mean by "all kno=
> wing=3D
> > > ".
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The word "knowing" means "in possession o=
> f kn=3D
> > > owle=3D3D
> > > > > dge"
> > > > > > > > and pre=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > fixed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with "all" the meaning becomes "in posses=
> sion=3D
> > > =A0of =3D3D
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > knowledg=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > e". Wh=3D3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > else could "all knowing" mean?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God has the freewill that is needed to focu=
> s on=3D
> > > =A0any=3D3D
> > > > > thing
> > > > > > > > that w=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > e want=3D3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > s to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > focus on each day. I don't place God in a b=
> ox. =3D
> > > God =3D3D
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > know wha=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > tever =3D3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chooses to know each day.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You asked me what I meant by all knowing, I'v=
> e gi=3D
> > > ven =3D3D
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > my answe=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > r.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet you don't address it, and claim you don't=
> out=3D
> > > =A0you=3D3D
> > > > > r god
> > > > > > > > in a b=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > ox.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But straight away you limit your god.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is putting your god in a box Jason.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And by doing so you are effectively saying yo=
> ur g=3D
> > > od i=3D3D
> > > > > s
> > > > > > not all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > knowing.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? Because you want the bad guys to have fr=
> ee w=3D
> > > ill.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? Because you want to absolve your god fro=
> m an=3D
> > > y
> > > > > > > > responsibility=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the bad guys actions.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you do that Jason?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree--God has vast knowledge and can make=
> use=3D
> > > =A0of =3D3D
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > knowled=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > ge to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve various problems. I don't place God in a =
> box.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's see now.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently you said your god is omniscient, that Ja=
> son =3D
> > > mean=3D3D
> > > > > s you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > acknowledge your god is all knowing.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet here you are putting your god in a box by say=
> ing =3D
> > > your=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0god
> > > > > > > > only ha=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > s
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > vast knowledge.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you limit your god Jason?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > OK--
> > > > > > > > > > > > > God has VAST knowledge. I don't recall stating that=
> God=3D
> > > =A0ONL=3D3D
> > > > > Y has
> > > > > > > > vast k=3D3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > nowledge.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > VAST knowledge is a totally different thing than bein=
> g AL=3D
> > > L kn=3D3D
> > > > > owing.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > I've tried to tell him that already.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > VAST is not the same as ALL.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > VAST limits his god's capacity.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Ergo he puts his god in a box.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > > > > > > a.a. #2273
> >
> > > > > > > > > > OK--ALL KNOWLEDGE
> >
> > > > > > > > > Then, nobody has free will. If God is all knowing, he knows=
> eve=3D
> > > ryth=3D3D
> > > > > ing
> > > > > > > > > you will do. Therefore, you have to do what he knows you wi=
> ll d=3D
> > > o, a=3D3D
> > > > > nd
> > > > > > > > > you have no free will.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Oh yes, where did the water go?
> >
> > > > > > > > Yes, God knows everything. However, I continue to believe tha=
> t Go=3D
> > > d ca=3D3D
> > > > > n
> > > > > > > > take days off and meditate on those days off. Evidence: Jesus=
> don=3D
> > > e it=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0on a
> > > > > > > > regular basis. Jesus once said--"when you have seen me, you h=
> ave =3D
> > > seen=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0the
> > > > > > > > father". Jesus learned how to meditate from watching his fath=
> er m=3D
> > > edit=3D3D
> > > > > ate.
> >
> > > > > > > Actually, it has been proven that the word meditate is not anyw=
> here=3D
> > > =A0in
> > > > > > > the Bible.
> >
> > > > > > > The fact is, you cannot have an omniscient being and have peopl=
> e wi=3D
> > > th
> > > > > > > free will The two concepts are mutually exclusive. If an omnisc=
> ient
> > > > > > > being exists, s/he can't "take a day off", since that being jus=
> t kn=3D
> > > ows
> > > > > > > everything, including what you will do at any given point in =
> =3D3DA0y=3D
> > > our li=3D3D
> > > > > fe.
> > > > > > > Therefore, if an omniscient being exists, there cannot be free =
> will=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > > > > I heard a famous preacher discussing this subject. I agree with h=
> is p=3D
> > > oint
> > > > > > of view. He said something like this about Adam and Eve.
> >
> > > > > > Pastor Chuck Smith said that God knew the actions Adam and Eve wo=
> uld =3D
> > > be
> > > > > > taking in the future related to eating fruit obtained from the fo=
> rbit=3D
> > > ten
> > > > > > tree.
> >
> > > > > > However, it did not mean that God played any role in regard to ca=
> usin=3D
> > > g
> > > > > > them to take those actions. Those actions they took in regard to =
> eati=3D
> > > ng
> > > > > > that forbidden fruit were entirely based on free will. God did no=
> t
> > > > > > influence them to take those actions.
> >
> > > > > > I will apply what Chuck Smith said to you.
> >
> > > > > > God knows what you will be doing the rest of your life. However, =
> God =3D
> > > will
> > > > > > not have any influence on what you will be doing the rest of your=
> lif=3D
> > > e.
> > > > > > You can do anything that you want to do. God will not interfere. =
> You =3D
> > > have
> > > > > > free will.
> >
> > > > > Jason try and open your mind to the truth.
> >
> > > > OK
> >
> > > > > You've accepted that your god is all knowing.
> >
> > > > YES
> >
> > > > > So think about what this actually means.
> >
> > > > OK
> >
> > > > > Your god knows everything you are going to say, think and do in you=
> r
> > > > > entire life.
> > > > > Right?
> >
> > > > YES
> >
> > > > > So nothing you "choose" to do can come about by free will.
> > > > > Got it?
> >
> > > > You were doing great until you got to the last sentence.
> >
> > > Actually there is nothing wrong with my last sentence.
> >
> > > Your god knows everything you are going to say, think and do in your
> > > entire life.
> >
> > > You've accepted that.
> >
> > > So why can't you take the next step?
> >
> > > > God granted people on the earth the gift of FREE WILL.
> >
> > > That's where your thinking goes wrong.
> >
> > > If you have free will, your god can't be all knowing.
> >
> > > If your god is all knowing, you can't have free will.
> >
> > > > God did not create
> > > > programmed robots but instead God created humans with free will.
> >
> > > Nothing in the creation stories says humans were given free will.
> >
> > > > God knows what you are going to say, think and do in your entire life=
> .
> > > > However, you have the freewill that is needed to do almost anything t=
Every person in the world and even the angels in heaven have free will.