<sigh> How do you guys deal with this?

[Dan Bissonnette]

I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.

But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
their home network?

I mean, this is what I do for a living; fix problems on networks. At
$ork, I have 500 users and a five-person staff in almost a dozen
buildings. I'm never in my office. I'm always fixing things.

I'm just not up for this after work. I spend whole days monkey-fucking
with balky systems. Scanners that won't scan. Printers that won't
print. Idiot users who print out .pdf docs, scan them back in, and only
then try to email them. And fail at that.

How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job. When I get home from
work, I want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers,
and enjoy a glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping,
flipping fuck about your problem with a router."

It would never occur to me to call up a friend who owns a plumbing
business and try to get him to un-stop my downstairs drain. I call
Roto-Rooter and pay the $$$.

Help.

--
"You're having an internal argument with somebody named
DragonQueen42 - you're never going to win that argument."
- David Benioff, 'Game of Thrones' Producer

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <20150324223012...@firedrake.org>,
roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org says...

> >But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
> >after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
> >their home network?
>

> Nope.
>
> There are people for whom I do unlimited support. $SPOUSE for example.
> Others, tough.
>
> I will admit it's helpful to be able to say "oh, you're using Windows,
> I haven't touched that for over 15 years, can't help". Even though the
> last two words are untrue.

Sigh. The last thing I want here is a flame-war about Windows.
Everybody uses it. I use it. I have to exist in the real world, where
$ork has vendors and manufacturers and web-presences that *require* the
use of Windows. This is the OS that my friends have their problems
with.

They know I run an IT shop with 500 Windows users. I mean, I'm not
going to *lie* to them. Or flaunt my "superiority" by claiming that I'm
a "Linux only" user. I'm not.

[Andrew]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:26:59 -0400, Dan Bissonnette wrote:

> But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
> after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
> their home network?

No.

My not-necessarily-preferred-but-defaulted-to solution to this has been
to just not have any friends that I didn't get to know over the Internet.
It's a great filter. With the exception of one family member, everyone I
know is at least marginally able to solve their own problems. I only get
called when something genuinely demented is going on.

Side effects of implementing this solution may include loneliness and
social incompetence.

--

Andrew

[David Scheidt]

Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:

:I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These

:are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.

:But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
:after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
:their home network?

Where you went wrong was not saying no the first time.

:How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job. When I get home from

:work, I want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers,
:and enjoy a glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping,
:flipping fuck about your problem with a router."

I tell people "That's what I do for a living." If they pester, I
suggest the existence of google. If they persist, I refer them to
someone who will solve the problem for a fee.


--
sig 93

[Steve VanDevender]

Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> writes:

> How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job. When I get home from
> work, I want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers,
> and enjoy a glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping,
> flipping fuck about your problem with a router."

Yes, that's the idea. Just tell them that.

--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://hexadecimal.uoregon.edu/
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8
Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns
Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:26:59 +0000, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
>
> I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
> are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.

Same here. I have a lifelong friend who keeps buying crappy laptops with
bigger and bigger disks, and another one who forgets his e-mail passwords
with amazing regularity.

Every time they call me after 10 in the evening it's for help and not because
of my magnetic personality. And I provide help since that's what they expect.
They are friends and you have to respect that.

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2015-03-24, Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job. When I get home from
> work, I want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers,
> and enjoy a glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping,
> flipping fuck about your problem with a router."

"Look, I'm sorry. I know it's a problem for you. I get that. But this
is what I do for a living. I need to unwind and do something different
when I get home. If you really need help, there's a couple of places
that you can pay to help you out; if you want me to do it, I can
squeeze you in in about two or three weeks - I'm flat out until then.
I'm really sorry, but I can't get out of the things I already have
organised between now and then."

Or words to that effect.

It's the immediate help that's the problem - they're imposing upon you
to get it sorted ASAP. By making sure there's a delay between the
request and you helping out, you're providing an impetus for them to
go elsewhere, without outright rejecting them. Increase or decrease
the delay as you feel necessary. Hopefully you're not having dinner
with them (especially at their place) during that period...

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:00:26 +0000, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:
[...]

> It's the immediate help that's the problem - they're imposing upon you
> to get it sorted ASAP.

That's very good point. They turn to you for one of the two reasons. One is
their data, and two is your speed. Recently I've started to pretend that
whatever needs fixing is taking me hours.

[Peter Corlett]

Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job. When I get home from work, I
> want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers, and enjoy a
> glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping, flipping fuck about your
> problem with a router."

That's easy. You open your mouth and say "Look, this is my job. When I get home

from work, I want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers, and
enjoy a glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping, flipping fuck

about your problem with a router." Slamming the phone down afterwards is
optional, but highly satisfying.

People whom you feel the urge to say this to are not your friends. Most of them
aren't even useful idiots and can just fuck right off. Life's too short to
suffer their presence.

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> said:
>But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
>after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
>their home network?

I basically only answer computer-related questions for immediate family,
and not a lot at that. They know I don't run Windows, so I don't get
called for those kind of things. My father (an engineer) has been using
computers since long before I was born, so when he calls, it is more
likely to be something like "can you confirm this is a bug in gcc?".

Friends and acquaintances may ask a question when we're around each
other, or very rarely email me, but that's it; they know not to call.

When I get home from work (assuming work doesn't call), I don't want to
be working on making a computer/network/etc. function. That's why I
have a TiVo instead of building a MythTV box, why I have an Xbox instead
of a gaming PC, etc. If I want to watch TV/play a game, it is to relax;
I don't want to even think about the computer behind the scenes.

--
Chris Adams <cma...@cmadams.net>

[Joe Zeff]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:10:44 +0000, Wojciech Derechowski wrote:

> Same here. I have a lifelong friend who keeps buying crappy laptops with
> bigger and bigger disks, and another one who forgets his e-mail
> passwords with amazing regularity.

Why? Is he trying to win a disk-size war?

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
Not necessarily; some are born with Darwin's crosshairs on them already.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <i9GdnZybbMB7Lo_I...@posted.hiwaay2>, on 03/25/2015

at 08:11 AM, cma...@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) said:

>When I get home from work (assuming work doesn't call), I don't want
>to be working on making a computer/network/etc. function.

I must be strange; after work it was always a relief to be able to do
things on my computer my way and not to do something totally because
the PHB insisted.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[LP]

On 2015-03-25, Chris Adams <cma...@cmadams.net> wrote:
> Once upon a time, Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> said:
>>But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
>>after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
>>their home network?
>
> I basically only answer computer-related questions for immediate family,
> and not a lot at that.

I've been working towards all my immediate family having macs, for no other
reason than so I can funnel the majority of the annoyance towards the genius
bar.

The number of ad-hoc non-work support requests I get has dropped to a
manageable level.

In addition to that, I've spent a lot of time boring people with what I
actually do at work[1]. I think the majority of people I talk to in meatspace
now understand that I've not really done desktop support in a meaningful way
for over a decade.

If anyone does ask me, they get a polite, apologetic, honest appraisal of
my skill set and an offer to dig up some phone numbers of local support
guys who will help for a fee.

> When I get home from work (assuming work doesn't call), I don't want to
> be working on making a computer/network/etc. function. That's why I
> have a TiVo instead of building a MythTV box, why I have an Xbox instead
> of a gaming PC, etc. If I want to watch TV/play a game, it is to relax;
> I don't want to even think about the computer behind the scenes.

Oh my god this.

For the majority of things at home, all I want is an appliance. Keep all
the problem solving nonsense in the office, let me live my life outside
the office[2]

-Paul
[1] Which usually involves enough "cattle vs pets" for them to get the message
[2] A laudable notion which falls to pieces when I mention the asterisk boxes
I run to connect various strowger telephone exchanges to the internet...
--
http://paulseward.com

[Julian Macassey]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:26:59 -0400, Dan Bissonnette

<dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
> are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.
>
> But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
> after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
> their home network?

I am happy to help friends with their phone and telecom
problems. They are my friends, they appreciate my skills and enjoy my
company. I know if I give them phone help, we will also chat about
other things and have an enjoyable time. If it requires a hone visit,
I know a good dinner, some glasses of wine and an enjoyable time will
be had.

My exception are the people who think they have access to
"free support", all they have to do is call up and act like I'm their
best friend in the world and whine to get me to help them. But other
than fixing their stuff, they have no time for me, won't answer my
calls unless I am calling back about their problem and can't wait to
get shot of me after I have fixed their problem. I point this out to
these people. Then I never hear from them again, which is a good
thing.



--
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and
opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society.
- Edward Bernays

[Julian Macassey]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:33:28 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West
<roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>
> So a doctor's talking with a lawyer at a party, and says "I have
> problems with friends asking me for professional advice. I'm sure you
> get the same thing. What do you do about it?"
>
> And the lawyer says "well, I give them a quick answer, and then I send
> them a bill the next day".
>
> "Thanks," says the doctor, and gets a bill the next day.

Funny you should mention lawyers and free advice. My father
would come back from the pub on a Sunday and rant about people asking
for free legal advice.

Yet when it came to asking for free advice from professionals,
my father was a master. I recall him picking a paint chemist's brains.
Getting investment advice from a stock broker etc.

Maybe lawyers think their knowledge is more valuable than the
knowledge of others.



--
"They hate our freedoms" - George W. Bush, September 20, 2001

[Julian Macassey]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:10:44 -0000, Wojciech Derechowski
<wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:
>
> Same here. I have a lifelong friend who keeps buying crappy laptops with
> bigger and bigger disks, and another one who forgets his e-mail passwords
> with amazing regularity.

The password PIN forgetting problem, is one of those things
where people expect YOU to know these things, because you have set up
or worked on their gear. Back in the days of cassette tape answering
machines, I had someone call me asking what their access code was.
They were most upset when I told them it was thier machine and they
should know the code, not me.

I have since learned how to avoid this. When they need a
password (e-mail, router password etc.), I tell them "Now write down
the password and username, and put a copy of that in your gun safe).
For those without gun safes, they know they should put passwords with
their valuable documents.

Then when they need that password, they know where to find it.

The long explanation about secure passwords, and their
implementation that you give at that time is often ignored. But I have
tried at least.

>
> Every time they call me after 10 in the evening it's for help and not because
> of my magnetic personality. And I provide help since that's what they expect.
> They are friends and you have to respect that.

And as good friends they will reciprocate.



--
"Bankers are greedy, they've been greedy for the last hundreds of years.
- Nouriel Roubini, 7 July 2012

[Julian Macassey]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:24:23 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West
<roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

> "I've got this heavy thing that needs to be moved. About six feet
> long, 200 pounds."
>
"Oh, and please bring a shovel".


--
"She needs to stop doing drugs and get a grip. Then maybe we'll talk." -
Stevie Nicks about Lindsay Lohan, NY Times 2009

[Mike A]

Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote in <20150325162350...@firedrake.org>:

> On 2015-03-25, Julian Macassey wrote:

> "I've got this heavy thing that needs to be moved. About six feet
> long, 200 pounds."

s/six.*pounds/... how tall are you? Your weight is? That big and heavy./

--
Judging by this particular thread, many people in this group spend years
taking illogical, pointless orders from morons and having their will to
live systematically crushed. And that's the teachers. Think what it's like
for the kids! -- after Rayner, in the Monastery

[David Gersic]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:26:59 -0400, Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems.

Answer #1: "Sorry, no idea."

Answer #2: "See Answer #1"

Repeat until the questions stop.

> But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
> after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
> their home network?

No.

> How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job. When I get home from
> work, I want to putter in my garden, take some photos of wildflowers,
> and enjoy a glass of wine with my wife. I don't give a flapping,
> flipping fuck about your problem with a router."

"See Answer #1".

[G. Paul Ziemba]

Lawns 'R' Us <nob...@nowhere.example.com> writes:

>On 2015-03-24, Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How do I tell friends, "Look, this is my job.

>[...]

>It's the immediate help that's the problem - they're imposing upon you
>to get it sorted ASAP.

Along these lines, depending on the situation, it might be important
to ensure the helpee has some skin in the game, viz., helpee must
remain present while work proceeds on the problem. It's all too easy
for helpee to go on to other things leaving the helper to toil out
of mind.

Or, "sure, I'm available to visit to work on your problem after 20.00
this evening, but the going rate for friends is 15cl/hour (or 30, or
100) Ardbeg." Extra points if things devolve to something like the
dentist scene in The Pink Panther Strikes Again.
--
G. Paul Ziemba
FreeBSD unix:
1:01PM up 14 days, 12:36, 6 users, load averages: 0.83, 1.00, 0.99

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <20150325153852....@firedrake.org>,
Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

>On 2015-03-25, LP wrote:
>>For the majority of things at home, all I want is an appliance. Keep all
>>the problem solving nonsense in the office, let me live my life outside
>>the office[2]
>

>But appliances are, to a first approximation, shit. They do things
>like requiring you to consume only media you've bought from their
>makers,

And here I thought LP was referring to "appliance" in the toaster
sense of the word.

Some days when I get home that's about my level of competence.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <slrnmh4obr...@um5000.mystora.com>,
wdd...@um5000.mystora.com says...

> > I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
> > are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.
>
> Same here. I have a lifelong friend who keeps buying crappy laptops with
> bigger and bigger disks, and another one who forgets his e-mail passwords
> with amazing regularity.
>
> Every time they call me after 10 in the evening it's for help and not because
> of my magnetic personality. And I provide help since that's what they expect.
> They are friends and you have to respect that.

<sigh> That's been - and continues to be - my policy. I was just
hoping for A Magic Bullet. I knew there wouldn't be one. Chalk it up
to venting among peers who get it.


--
"You're having an internal argument with somebody named
DragonQueen42 - you're never going to win that argument."
- David Benioff, 'Game of Thrones' Producer

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <meubrf$58h$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, ab...@mooli.org.uk
says...

This would be satisfying. If only I could bring myself to be that hard.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <meupns$ht0$1...@dont-email.me>, usenet_spam_trap@zaccaria-
pinball.com says...

> > I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems.
>
> Answer #1: "Sorry, no idea."
>
> Answer #2: "See Answer #1"
>
> Repeat until the questions stop.

But I do know. And they know I know.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 21:53:13 +0000, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
> In article <slrnmh4obr...@um5000.mystora.com>,
> wdd...@um5000.mystora.com says...

[...]

>> Every time they call me after 10 in the evening it's for help and not because
>> of my magnetic personality. And I provide help since that's what they expect.
>> They are friends and you have to respect that.
>
><sigh> That's been - and continues to be - my policy. I was just
> hoping for A Magic Bullet. I knew there wouldn't be one. Chalk it up
> to venting among peers who get it.

Try to pretend it is taking you hours to solve the problem. Not that you
have to pretend much, if it is with a disk editor, but take for instance
any hack you've been making repeatedly in 5 min. which suddenly takes 2 hrs.

It will pay off in the long run, as I can see from my recent experience
with a couple of dear friends of mine from another town some 150 mi. away
supported over the network by yours truly for the last 30yrs.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <MPG.2f7b929a7...@news-east.giganews.com>, on 03/24/2015

at 04:26 PM, Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> said:

>I've got several very good friends

FSVO. They'd be better friends if they limited their requests for pro
bono assistance. Have I ever given free assistance? Yes, but I try to
limit it.

>But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls
>me after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless
>laser over their home network?

Not unless they offer to pay your current rate.

>How do I tell friends,

"I don't[1] do WinDoze." Or, if you do WinDoze at work, "I don't do po
bono". If you're a doctor at a party, "disrobe" works well, but the
real issue is drawing a line and making it stick.

[1] Not can't or would rather not, but don't, from choice.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnmh6em...@noocow.adminspotting.org>,
Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 18:08:10 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman
><wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:

[doubled .signature deleted]

>Speak up, Claire Speed, the line is clear.

This is actually a result of forgetting the chicken, and then dealing
with the results manually. I usually forget to delete the signature
and then inews adds another one.... (Surely this can't be UI for
anyone any more.)

[Peter Corlett]

Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
[Lying that you don't know the answers.]

> But I do know. And they know I know.

And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their relentless
pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and sponge off somebody
else.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <55134f77$11$fuzhry+tra$mr2...@news.patriot.net>,
spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid says...

> >But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls
> >me after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless
> >laser over their home network?
>
> Not unless they offer to pay your current rate.

I pay my plumber. And if the sink still leaks after he leaves, I call
him right back and demand he fixes it once and for all.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <mf0hmn$6v9$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, ab...@mooli.org.uk
says...

> > But I do know. And they know I know.
>
> And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their relentless
> pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and sponge off somebody
> else.

What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 24/03/15 20:26, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
>
> I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
> are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.

I hear what you're saying about how to treat friends (as your 2015-03-26
09:33GMT article made clear). I hope this reply will show you a couple
of ways around that. One, you won't like. The other, you might.

>
> But am I wrong to be vexed in the extreme when one of them calls me
> after dinner with a problem involving printing to a wireless laser over
> their home network?

Wrong? Not exactly. But it's a recipe for misery and curmudginosity. You
say that these are people you love. What do you mean by that, in
practical terms? Do you mean that you want the very best for them, and
are prepared to put yourself out for them, at least to a certain degree?
(That's not a bad definition.)

If so, why not smile, nod, and say "of course I'll fix your wireless
laser"? These are people you love. Presumably they love you back, at
least to some extent. Wouldn't they do the same for you? If you were,
say, in a car accident and were immobilised for a few weeks, wouldn't
they bring you dinner? And cake? And wine? And wouldn't they mow your
lawn for you? Until you were back on your feet, that is.

Such friends are to be treasured. What's a little light hackery in
comparison?

And yet... and yet...

(It's especially "and yet" when the favours all seem to flow in one
direction, isn't it?)

Now, I have found that the most irksome part of personal unrecovery is
that of repetition - fixing the /same/ problem for the /same/ person for
the /Nth/ time.

Here is a strategy that may work for you (bugs notwithstanding!):

#include <math.h>

double calcfee(int friend_id, int problem_id)
{
double fee = 0.0;
int count = 0;
EXEC SQL SELECT prevfixes INTO :count FROM friendfixes
WHERE fid = :friend_id AND pid = :problem_id;
if(count > 0)
{
fee = pow(2.0, count - 1.0);
}
return fee;
}

Her: "Hi, Dan! Thanks for coming over. I'm sorry to keep dragging you
out like this, but my email's broken again. It won't do attachments."
(Translation: I can't remember how to make attachments.)

You: "Hi, Lisa. Don't worry, we'll soon get it working again. But, uh,
look, this is the last freebie, okay? Next time it happens, I'll charge
you a penny, all right?" (Big smile.) "So, to save you some money, I'll
show you exactly what you have to do. But next time, it's a penny! And
I'll sue if you don't pay!" (Bigger smile.)

Her (laughing, we hope): "You got yourself a deal."

So you fix it. You go home. You update your database accordingly. And
about a month later she calls you over again.

Her: "Hi, Dan! Thanks for coming over. I'm sorry to keep dragging you
out like this, but my email's broken again. It won't do attachments."
(Translation: I still can't remember how to make attachments.)

You: "Okay, Lisa, that's fine. We can sort it out. But first there's the
matter of my fee. I'm not lifting a finger until I get my penny." (Big
smile.)

Her (reaching for her coin-purse): "Here ya go. Don't spend it all at
once, you hear?"

You: "Okay, let's go fix your problem, Mrs Client. Now, watch carefully,
because next time it'll cost you double."

Her (not yet understanding the power of exponentiation): "Okay."

You have to stick with it, though. Don't wimp out and go to 3
pence/cents/whatever rather than 4. Double every time. And always with a
big smile. They'll get the message.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Richard Heathfield]

On 26/03/15 11:08, Gary Barnes wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 05:33:17 -0400, Dan Bissonnette
> <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> : In article <mf0hmn$6v9$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, ab...@mooli.org.uk

> : says...
> : > > But I do know. And they know I know.
> : >
> : > And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their relentless
> : > pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and sponge off somebody
> : > else.
> :
> : What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
> : friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.
>

> Well fuck off and stop bothering us with your problems then.

Spoken like a true friend. :-)

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:08:20 +0000, Gary Barnes wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 05:33:17 -0400, Dan Bissonnette
><dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>: What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their

>: friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.
>

> Well fuck off and stop bothering us with your problems then.

Clever but not nearly good enough.

[Peter Corlett]

Dan Bissonnette <dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ab...@mooli.org.uk says...
[...]

>> And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their
>> relentless pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and
>> sponge off somebody else.
> What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
> friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.

Perhaps the word "friend" means something different in your dialect, but round
these parts those people are not friends. The giveaway is that they are
comfortable treating you like a total fucking asshole would.

At best, these people could be called "acquaintances" or to use the modern
parlance, "Facebook friends", i.e. those who put on a pretense of friendship
when they want something but are otherwise just wallpaper.

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:02:36 +0000 (UTC), G. Paul Ziemba wrote:
> Or, "sure, I'm available to visit to work on your problem after 20.00
> this evening, but the going rate for friends is 15cl/hour (or 30, or
> 100) Ardbeg." Extra points if things devolve to something like the
> dentist scene in The Pink Panther Strikes Again.

I've done similar. "We'll make an evening of it. You'll pick me up,
you'll drop me home again when we're done, and the wine glass next to me
never goes empty." Modify beveragte for whatever custom^Wfriend's
beverage is. Enthusiasts don't generally keep the plonk around.

--
"HTML's a cheap whore. Treating her with respect is possible, and even
preferable, because once upon a time she was a beautiful and virginal
format, but you shouldn't expect too much of her at this point."
--M"K"H

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <mf140i$ou5$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, ab...@mooli.org.uk
says...

> >> And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their
> >> relentless pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and
> >> sponge off somebody else.

> > What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
> > friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.
>
> Perhaps the word "friend" means something different in your dialect, but round
> these parts those people are not friends. The giveaway is that they are
> comfortable treating you like a total fucking asshole would.

They're just not clueful. They're not "treating me like a total fucking
asshole would," they just need help.

And let's face it; with these sorts of problems, who can you go to? The
guys who built the router? The ISP? M$?

> At best, these people could be called "acquaintances" or to use the modern
> parlance, "Facebook friends", i.e. those who put on a pretense of friendship
> when they want something but are otherwise just wallpaper.

That's a nice theory, but it's totally wrong.

The problem isn't that they're unwilling to provide services in kind,
but that their professions aren't those that I need help with very often
- IE, mostly never. One of my friends is a *botanist*. What, I'm going
to call him because I need to, like, graft some plants? Another is an
entomologist; how many times do you need to identify an unfamiliar
species of bug?

Devices and networking are different.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <mf0nb2$kg6$1...@dont-email.me>, r...@cpax.org.uk says...

> You have to stick with it, though. Don't wimp out and go to 3
> pence/cents/whatever rather than 4. Double every time. And always with a
> big smile. They'll get the message.

This is the best answer so far. At least, it has the benefit of me not
telling a friend of 30 years to "fuck off" or of being told myself to
"fuck off and stop bothering us with your problems. I was sort of
looking for a solution where no one was asked to "fuck off."

I might give this a try.

[Mark Huizer]

The wise Dan Bissonnette enlightened me with:

> They're just not clueful. They're not "treating me like a total fucking
> asshole would," they just need help.

It's computers. It's not life threatening. So I would suggest to wait
until you are around (he, dinner is a good suggestion) or have more
spare time. Or bring their gear your way so you can have a look perhaps
in your pleasant environment. It helps quite often: people think it's
less urgent if they have to make a trip your way, and if they have to
wait, they will try to understand things themselves and make it work
before you are around.

> And let's face it; with these sorts of problems, who can you go to? The
> guys who built the router? The ISP? M$?

Google? Mail to you for a few hints what to look at? Computer service
people? The company who sold the equipment?

> The problem isn't that they're unwilling to provide services in kind,
> but that their professions aren't those that I need help with very often
> - IE, mostly never. One of my friends is a *botanist*. What, I'm going
> to call him because I need to, like, graft some plants? Another is an
> entomologist; how many times do you need to identify an unfamiliar
> species of bug?

They can help moving boxes, work in the garden, ... there is some room
left :)

Greetings

Mark

[Chloe]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 17:55:33 -0400, Dan Bissonnette
<dangbis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This would be satisfying. If only I could bring myself to be that hard.
>

Only 2 people get free support from me.
My neighbour, who protected my house when I was broken into, and keeps an
eye on it.
My Mum, who pays in roast dinners.

Simple really

Chloe

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <slrnmh8tp...@eeyore.local.dohd.org>,
xaa+news_alt.sy...@dohd.org says...

> > And let's face it; with these sorts of problems, who can you go to? The
> > guys who built the router? The ISP? M$?
>
> Google? Mail to you for a few hints what to look at? Computer service
> people? The company who sold the equipment?

I try to do exactly this. But ... "computer service people?" They're
the worst sort of assclowns and charlatans since the words were coined.
They charge outrageous prices and deliver little more than the usual
tech support jabberwocky about "OK, unplug your cable modem, your
router, and your PC, then power them ..."

> > The problem isn't that they're unwilling to provide services in kind,
> > but that their professions aren't those that I need help with very often
> > - IE, mostly never. One of my friends is a *botanist*. What, I'm going
> > to call him because I need to, like, graft some plants? Another is an
> > entomologist; how many times do you need to identify an unfamiliar
> > species of bug?
>
> They can help moving boxes, work in the garden, ... there is some room
> left :)

And they do this. They're my friends. But the digital world pervades
every aspect of their lives, and they're not good at it. And my wife
and I *like* working in our garden. Again, there's so little call for
the things I need help with.

Of course, some of them - friends and family - I have cut off. Hard.
Nobody who ever told me I'd have to pay for their services remained my
friend for a nanosecond.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <slrnmh902r...@Meteor.igloo.snowfields.net>,
Ch...@Meteor.igloo.snowfields.net says...

> > This would be satisfying. If only I could bring myself to be that hard.

> Only 2 people get free support from me.
> My neighbour, who protected my house when I was broken into, and keeps an
> eye on it.
> My Mum, who pays in roast dinners.

Heh. One of my friends brings me shit-tons of baked goods because of
all the help I've given her. I can't bring myself to tell her (she's a
baker) that both my wife and I have sworn off sugar for 15 years.
$orkers have chowed on many a cupcake, roll, and homemade bread.

I also don't drink, and my IT staff often drifts out under a heavy
burden of wine, liquor, and beer. My chief lieutenant once observed,
"for a guy who doesn't indulge, you've established the only IT staff
that does personal PC service for cow-orkers and works for whiskey."

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:58:47 -0400, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
> The problem isn't that they're unwilling to provide services in kind,
> but that their professions aren't those that I need help with very often
> - IE, mostly never. One of my friends is a *botanist*. What, I'm going
> to call him because I need to, like, graft some plants? Another is an
> entomologist; how many times do you need to identify an unfamiliar
> species of bug?

Presumably the skills as a clever botinist, though, are valuable to
SOMEBODY, who provides a convenient counter for how valuable those
skills are. Which in turn could be used to provide a convenient counter
for how valuable your skills are to him, which could then be used to
count how valuable the skills of a distiller are to you.

--
48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology
with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it
will not immediately come after me for revenge.
--Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

[Jay E. Morris]

Advise on plants that are poisonous and nearly undetectable? Lethal
bugs? Just out of general interest of course.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mf140i$ou5$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, on 03/26/2015

at 02:10 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>Perhaps the word "friend" means something different in your
>dialect, but round these parts those people are not friends.

"Friends, come to do business with you."

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 00:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West
<roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> On 2015-03-26, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
>>I also don't drink
>
> There's your problem.
>
> http://www.camdentownbrewery.com/ this evening. Recommended.

Should you ever be near Eugene, Oregon:

http://www.ninkasibrewing.com/visit/tasting-room

Very highly reccomended.



--
The Internet is full of people who can’t read and want to talk
about sandwiches - Noam Chomsky, Oct 2013

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2015-03-27, Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> On 2015-03-26, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
>>I also don't drink
>
> There's your problem.

With respect: there are reasons why people don't drink. In my case,
there's a family history of alcoholism, combined with me knowing that
I have a personality type that is liable to get easily addicted to
$SUBSTANCE, further combined with knowing damn well that, the way
things seem to be going, if I crawl into the bottle, I may well never
crawl out.

I appreciate that there are those who like to unwind with a glass of
$TIPPLE of an evening, and I do not begrudge them that pleasure. But
please, do not assume that not imbibing is a problem, even in jest.

[Mark Huizer]

The wise Dan Bissonnette enlightened me with:

> In article <slrnmh8tp...@eeyore.local.dohd.org>,
> xaa+news_alt.sy...@dohd.org says...
>

>> Google? Mail to you for a few hints what to look at? Computer service
>> people? The company who sold the equipment?
>
> I try to do exactly this. But ... "computer service people?" They're
> the worst sort of assclowns and charlatans since the words were coined.
> They charge outrageous prices and deliver little more than the usual
> tech support jabberwocky about "OK, unplug your cable modem, your
> router, and your PC, then power them ..."

I must admit, I know a few that I might even consider advicing to people
I know. So perhaps it might be worth it to see if you can come up with
people that you might consider mentioning?

Just like in almost every line of business you have idiots and good
guys. If knowing who to advice helps you, might be worth the effort.

>> > The problem isn't that they're unwilling to provide services in kind,
>> > but that their professions aren't those that I need help with very often
>> > - IE, mostly never. One of my friends is a *botanist*. What, I'm going
>> > to call him because I need to, like, graft some plants? Another is an
>> > entomologist; how many times do you need to identify an unfamiliar
>> > species of bug?
>>
>> They can help moving boxes, work in the garden, ... there is some room
>> left :)
>
> And they do this. They're my friends. But the digital world pervades
> every aspect of their lives, and they're not good at it. And my wife
> and I *like* working in our garden. Again, there's so little call for
> the things I need help with.
>
> Of course, some of them - friends and family - I have cut off. Hard.
> Nobody who ever told me I'd have to pay for their services remained my
> friend for a nanosecond.

Well... I have friends that I could ask for things. I have a brother in
law who does (or used to do) stuff like curtains, sun protection etc. We
don't pay his commercial prices, but still... what's wrong with that?

But well, what do you try to achieve? So far, I've seen (and perhaps I
missed things): no harsh words to friends or saying no. No "this is my
friend fee since it's my profession". "if they charge me for something,
they are cut off". It's a bit of mixed signals what you are trying to
achieve.

Greetings

Mark

[Joe Zeff]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:52:30 +0000, Michel wrote:

> Granted, not drinking is a bit limiting where the traditional non-
> monetary reward system involves bottles of single malt and people are
> somewhat inflexible of imagination.

If nothing else, you can set them aside and either use them as payment to
other friends or as gifts at appropriate times.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
You've got to love a newsreader with a menu option
named "Kill this Author".

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:58:10 GMT, Joe Zeff
<the.guy.with....@lasfsinc.info> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:52:30 +0000, Michel wrote:
>
>> Granted, not drinking is a bit limiting where the traditional non-
>> monetary reward system involves bottles of single malt and people are
>> somewhat inflexible of imagination.
>
> If nothing else, you can set them aside and either use them as payment to
> other friends or as gifts at appropriate times.

I drink mostly wine and beer. I don't take drugs, either
street, or "prescription". All of these are my choice. I have no
problem with people ingesting whatever they want.

But every now and again a friend or customer will give me an
expensive bottle of spirits, whisky usually. I thank them and either
serve it to guests who do drink such things, or give to another friend
who will appreciate it.

I was once given a very expensive bottle of port (1977) as a
gift. I really enjoyed drinking a bottle I could never buy for myself.

Whereas I am often offered to partake of drugs, I have
thankfully never given a baggie as a gift.


--
Germany is known as 'the land where Israelis learned their manners'.
- P. J. O'Rourke

[Steve VanDevender]

Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> writes:

> On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 00:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West
> <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>> On 2015-03-26, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
>>>I also don't drink
>>
>> There's your problem.
>>
>> http://www.camdentownbrewery.com/ this evening. Recommended.
>
> Should you ever be near Eugene, Oregon:
>
> http://www.ninkasibrewing.com/visit/tasting-room
>
> Very highly reccomended.

Ninkasi is probably the most famous microbrewery in Eugene (now
approaching the size of a millibrewery or centibrewery, actually) but
the whole area is awash in excellent beer. Some of the local breweries
(not a comprehensive list, just the ones I can remember off the top of
my head):

http://fallingskybrewing.com

http://oakbrew.com/

http://hopvalleybrewing.com/

All of these have tasting rooms or brewpubs associated with them too.

And one of the finest brewpubs and bottle shops in the world:

http://thebierstein.com

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:54:51 -0700, Steve VanDevender
<ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:

> Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> writes:
>
>> Should you ever be near Eugene, Oregon:
>>
>> http://www.ninkasibrewing.com/visit/tasting-room
>>
>> Very highly reccomended.
>
> Ninkasi is probably the most famous microbrewery in Eugene (now
> approaching the size of a millibrewery or centibrewery, actually) but
> the whole area is awash in excellent beer. Some of the local breweries
> (not a comprehensive list, just the ones I can remember off the top of
> my head):
>
> http://fallingskybrewing.com
>
> http://oakbrew.com/
>
> http://hopvalleybrewing.com/
>
> All of these have tasting rooms or brewpubs associated with them too.
>
> And one of the finest brewpubs and bottle shops in the world:
>
> http://thebierstein.com

I will forward this to the trouble and strife who loves hopped
malt beverages more than I.

I can see a road trip down south with the back of the car
packed with empty growlers, ready to be filled.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/articles/384/

Note: A good bit of scrounging will find empty gallon wine jugs that
would no doubt be exellent for bringing home some draught beer.

[Juancho]

Dan Bissonnette wrote:
> In article <mf0hmn$6v9$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, ab...@mooli.org.uk
> says...
>
>>>But I do know. And they know I know.
>>

>>And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their relentless
>>pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and sponge off somebody
>>else.
>
> What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
> friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.

You should get better friends. It's easy, really.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <mf2a47$an6$1...@dont-email.me>, mor...@epsilon3.com says...

> > The problem isn't that they're unwilling to provide services in kind,
> > but that their professions aren't those that I need help with very often
> > - IE, mostly never. One of my friends is a *botanist*. What, I'm going
> > to call him because I need to, like, graft some plants? Another is an
> > entomologist; how many times do you need to identify an unfamiliar
> > species of bug?
> >
> > Devices and networking are different.
> >
>
> Advise on plants that are poisonous and nearly undetectable? Lethal
> bugs? Just out of general interest of course.

I'm unlikely to come across unknown poisonous plants in my area; I live
in New England, not Ghana. So far as unknown, possibly lethal bugs ...
well, any unknown bug has already been crushed, so the threat is
neutralized and identification is rendered moot.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <86384qe...@gaheris.avalon.lan>, gal...@linuxmail.org
says...

> > They're just not clueful. They're not "treating me like a total fucking
> > asshole would," they just need help.
> >

> In general, they are still your friends. Explain to them nicely that you
> don't mind helping them, but that it *is* a rather unpleasant reminder
> of work to you.
>
> If they are friends, they will understand, and probably come up with
> some compensation on their own.
>
> If they balk, they are *NOT* friends.

Agree. I always point out that This Is My Day Job. (And it's not the
part of my day job that I enjoy...).

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <slrnmhask...@eeyore.local.dohd.org>,
xaa+news_alt.sy...@dohd.org says...

> But well, what do you try to achieve? So far, I've seen (and perhaps I
> missed things): no harsh words to friends or saying no. No "this is my
> friend fee since it's my profession". "if they charge me for something,
> they are cut off". It's a bit of mixed signals what you are trying to
> achieve.

Well, you've uncovered my mixed emotions about the topic. On the one
hand, I want to be a good friend and helpful. On the other hand, it
makes for a long day.

I don't think charging them is an option (except for the "penny"
suggestion I filed away for production trials...), as once I *charge*
someone for fixing a problem, I pretty much own the problem. Much as a
roofer I hire to fix a problem needs to supply a warranty.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <mf4c46$cci$1...@dont-email.me>, jua...@notarealaddress.org
says...

> >>And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their relentless
> >>pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and sponge off somebody
> >>else.
> >
> > What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
> > friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.
>
> You should get better friends. It's easy, really.

I "got" most of these friends when the internet was something that
connected academia.

[Bernard Peek]

On 25/03/15 21:53, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
> In article <slrnmh4obr...@um5000.mystora.com>,
> wdd...@um5000.mystora.com says...
>
>>> I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
>>> are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.
>>
>> Same here. I have a lifelong friend who keeps buying crappy laptops with
>> bigger and bigger disks, and another one who forgets his e-mail passwords
>> with amazing regularity.
>>
>> Every time they call me after 10 in the evening it's for help and not because
>> of my magnetic personality. And I provide help since that's what they expect.
>> They are friends and you have to respect that.
>
> <sigh> That's been - and continues to be - my policy. I was just
> hoping for A Magic Bullet. I knew there wouldn't be one. Chalk it up
> to venting among peers who get it.

It's a lose/lose situation. There are people who would accept it if you
just said "I don't want to do this stuff at home as well as the office."
Those are probably the people you wouldn't mind helping and probably
aren't the ones that phone after 10pm.



--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

In search of cognoscenti (again)

[Juancho]

Dan Bissonnette wrote:
> In article <mf4c46$cci$1...@dont-email.me>, jua...@notarealaddress.org
> says...
>
>>>>And they also know that you're a doormat and will cave in to their relentless
>>>>pestering. Grow a pair and tell them to fuck off and go and sponge off somebody
>>>>else.
>>>
>>>What can I say? Some people (obviously) are comfortable treating their
>>>friends like a total fucking asshole would. I'm not made like that.
>>
>>You should get better friends. It's easy, really.
>
> I "got" most of these friends when the internet was something that
> connected academia.

Yet they bother you with techno-shit on the phone in the night. Repeatedly.

Those I call critters, not friends.

I only to computer support for people under the same roof as me. Over
the phone?, are we crazy?

[Bernard Peek]

I had to fire a guy who came to work drunk and kept topping himself up
from the vodka bottle in his desk drawer. It was probably my fault that
he got that way because I regularly took my team to the pub, we worked
in the advertising industry which is a very boozy environment. We
figured out (too late) that he was probably a recovering alcoholic when
we hired him.

After that we always included a check for that in the recruitment process.

[Joe Zeff]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:54:51 -0700, Steve VanDevender wrote:

> the whole area is awash in excellent beer.

What a waste of good beer! Is there anything that can be done to prevent
the loss? I presume, of course, that it's not practical to drink it fast
enough.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

One learns from errors exactly as much as from successes if not more.

[Joe Zeff]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 22:05:11 +0100, Juancho wrote:

> I only to computer support for people under the same roof as me. Over
> the phone?, are we crazy?

Same here, mostly, with one important exception. A good friend's wife
has a laptop running Jvaqbjf7. She'd had experience with Yvahk from her
first husband, and wanted a dual-boot system. Good Friend is good with
computers, but not familiar with Yvahk, so I had him adjust things to
give me the free space I needed[1] then did the install. I also pointed
her at her distro's support forums and told her that I'd subscribe to any
threads she created to make it easier to translate geek-speak to user-
speak. So far, she's not asked for more help.

[1]Why I didn't do it myself might be UI.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

I mean, if it was an obscenity filter, I could understand
it rejecting on, say, 'Windows'.

[Juancho]

Joe Zeff wrote:
> A good friend's wife has a laptop running Jvaqbjf7. She'd had
> experience with Yvahk from her first husband, and wanted a dual-boot
> system. Good Friend is good with computers, but not familiar with
> Yvahk, so I had him adjust things to give me the free space I
> needed[1] then did the install. I also pointed her at her distro's
> support forums and told her that I'd subscribe to any threads she
> created to make it easier to translate geek-speak to user- speak. So
> far, she's not asked for more help.

Let face: she probably hasn't used Lumix at all, and much prefers Winblows.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 27/03/15 20:54, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
<snip>

>
> I don't think charging them is an option (except for the "penny"
> suggestion I filed away for production trials...), as once I *charge*
> someone for fixing a problem, I pretty much own the problem. Much as a
> roofer I hire to fix a problem needs to supply a warranty.

Two points are key to the "penny" solution:

1) the fee /has/ to double each time you fix the *same* problem for the
*same* person, so that after a short honeymoon period of very cheap and
then an even shorter period of about right, your services become
prohibitively expensive - thus avoiding the 'ownership' problem, in due
course;
2) you /have/ to show them, each time, how to fix it themselves. This is
absolutely vital, because this is the bit that shows that you're not
charging them for the sake of the money; you're charging them as a
necessary factor in the process of teaching them self-reliance. That's
What Friends Do.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 21:01:19 +0000, Bernard Peek wrote:
> On 25/03/15 21:53, Dan Bissonnette wrote:
>> In article <slrnmh4obr...@um5000.mystora.com>,
>> wdd...@um5000.mystora.com says...
>>
>>>> I've got several very good friends with serial computer problems. These
>>>> are people I've loved for years. Like, 20+ years.

>>> [...]

>>> And I provide help since that's what they expect.

>>> [...]

>> <sigh> That's been - and continues to be - my policy.

>> [...]

>
> It's a lose/lose situation.

So is Catch-22.

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[Joe Zeff]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 23:33:11 +0100, Juancho wrote:

> Let face: she probably hasn't used Lumix at all, and much prefers
> Winblows.

No, she only kept Winderz for a few programs that need it and Yvahk for
regular use. If what you said were true, she wouldn't have bothered, but
she'd been wanting to switch for quite a while before she learned that I
could (and would) do it for her.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

It's a funny world out there, and the only things that come in
absolute black and white are squad cars.

[Marc Haber]

Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>2) you /have/ to show them, each time, how to fix it themselves. This is
>absolutely vital, because this is the bit that shows that you're not
>charging them for the sake of the money; you're charging them as a
>necessary factor in the process of teaching them self-reliance. That's
>What Friends Do.

How do I do that when they don't give a damn?

Greetings
Marc
--
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2015-03-27, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:

> On 27 Mar 2015 07:39:07 GMT, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:
>> With respect: there are reasons why people don't drink.
>

> Yup.
>
> Though I'd like to add that even without reasons[0] it's perfectly
> fine to choose not to. Enough of this shit that people _need_ to
> drink in order to whatever. We're not in high school anymore...

True as well. I was focused on the implication that not drinking is a
problem - an implication that I take strong and profound exception to
(for reasons I have already disclosed.)

> [0] "Reasons" in this sort of context seems to be shorthand for
> "valid reasons", which is far too easy to read implying that
> "because I don't want to" is not a good enough reason.

I can see where you're coming from; my intent was to say, basically,
"if somebody chooses to not drink, they have a reason. What that
reason might be is _their_ concern, not yours. All that matters to you
is that they have chosen to not consume alcohol, and that puts an onus
upon you to respect that choice."

>> In my case,
>> there's a family history of alcoholism, combined with me knowing that
>> I have a personality type that is liable to get easily addicted to
>> $SUBSTANCE, further combined with knowing damn well that, the way
>> things seem to be going, if I crawl into the bottle, I may well never
>> crawl out.
>

> That's a particularly good reason though.

There have been more times than I care to admit when I have been
tempted to crawl into the bottle. The sheer good fortune that I have
not done so as yet, I ascribe mainly to the fact that I don't drink at
all, even socially.

Anyway, this isn't about me. I just get mildly peeved at people who
assume that if somebody doesn't drink alcohol, there is something
wrong with them. I get _very_ peeved at people who try to push such
individuals towards alcohol: you don't know their story, you don't
know why they have made that choice; _back the fuck off until you do_.
And it's up to _them_ to decide whether or not to share that story.

</rant>

[Joe Zeff]

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 11:26:34 +0000, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:

> you don't know why they have made that choice

You don't even know if it's a choice. I'm Type II, on insulin and I've
had a chronic low platelet count[1][2] for five years. It's not that I
can't drink, it's just that having more than one very small drink isn't a
smart idea, so I simply don't.

[1]It seems to be clearing itself up, but I'm still careful.
[2]Alcohol is a blood thinner.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

Sounds a bit like Apple's iPrint Shuffle: you press a button and it
prints something somewhere at random.

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 09:25:07 +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>2) you /have/ to show them, each time, how to fix it themselves. This is
>>absolutely vital, because this is the bit that shows that you're not
>>charging them for the sake of the money; you're charging them as a
>>necessary factor in the process of teaching them self-reliance. That's
>>What Friends Do.
>
> How do I do that when they don't give a damn?

If your fee keeps doubling, eventually they'll care. Or you'll be rich
enough to move to Monaco and live on your yacht.

--
61. If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad
scheme?", I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies
them. --Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

[Richard Heathfield]

On 28/03/15 21:44, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 09:25:07 +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>2) you /have/ to show them, each time, how to fix it themselves. This is
>>>absolutely vital, because this is the bit that shows that you're not
>>>charging them for the sake of the money; you're charging them as a
>>>necessary factor in the process of teaching them self-reliance. That's
>>>What Friends Do.
>>
>> How do I do that when they don't give a damn?
>
> If your fee keeps doubling, eventually they'll care. Or you'll be rich
> enough to move to Monaco and live on your yacht.

"Hey, Dan! How's the yacht? Brilliant! And how's the Med? Sun shining?
Great! Look, the reason I'm phoning..."

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2015-03-28, Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfsinc.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 11:26:34 +0000, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:
>
>> you don't know why they have made that choice
>
> You don't even know if it's a choice.

ObPedant: a choice between two options - one that is grossly
unpalatable for whatever reason, and one that is easily accepted and
handled - is still a choice. I think you meant "reasonable choice".

> I'm Type II, on insulin and I've
> had a chronic low platelet count[1][2] for five years. It's not that I
> can't drink, it's just that having more than one very small drink isn't a
> smart idea, so I simply don't.

Yup. That's an example of a choice that is not a reasonable choice. "I
can either cut my hand open with this rusty blade, or not. Gee, that's
a _really_ hard choice to make, that one..."

Good luck with getting that platelet count back up.

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:48:29 -0400, Dan Bissonnette wrote:

> I'm unlikely to come across unknown poisonous plants in my area; I
> live in New England, not Ghana. So far as unknown, possibly lethal
> bugs ... well, any unknown bug has already been crushed, so the threat
> is neutralized and identification is rendered moot.

New England has got a couple of Amanitas including Death Caps, a couple
of nightshades, foxglove, lily-of-the-valley, larkspur, yew, and I'm
pretty sure hemlock as well. And that's just off the top of my head.

GOOD JOB .sigmonster...

--
"Bother," said Pooh, as he covered Piglet's corpse.

[Richard Bos]

Andrew <and...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> My not-necessarily-preferred-but-defaulted-to solution to this has been
> to just not have any friends that I didn't get to know over the Internet.

> Side effects of implementing this solution may include loneliness and
> social incompetence.

IME (E, not O!), the latter is a major cause, not an effect of your
solution.

Sorry.

Richard

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article
<slrnmhd3va...@invalid.hostname.does.not.exist.666.au>,
nob...@nowhere.example.com says...

> Anyway, this isn't about me. I just get mildly peeved at people who
> assume that if somebody doesn't drink alcohol, there is something
> wrong with them.

I forget who said it, but:

"It's an odd - but almost universally held - opinion that anyone who
doesn't consume alcohol *at all* must be a total alcoholic."

[Julian Macassey]

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:25:14 +0000, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:
>
> Agreed. I picked up on the nuance because often the first thing one
> gets to do on refusing a beer is to defend why, where "don't feel
> like it" is often not considered a valid reason.
>
> Oddly enough: "Still need to drive" often gets you a "awww, one is
> legal". (With a concerted push towards s/one/two/ followed by losing
> count.) While "still need to _ride_" (as in, motorcycle) seems to
> get instant respect from even the most dim of wit, often even kudos
> for doing the right thing.

I do drink. But even I have standards and reasons I don't wnat
or need to.

"Thanks for offering, but I really need to focus right now."

Seems to do the trick and I have avoided drinking some crappy
beer.


--
Banks are an almost irresistible attraction for that element of
our society which seeks unearned money. - J. Edgar Hoover

[Shmuel Metz]

In <abmjub-...@rubberchicken.nocrap>, on 03/28/2015

at 10:25 PM, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> said:

>Agreed. I picked up on the nuance because often the first thing
>one gets to do on refusing a beer is to defend why,

--------------> alt.sysadmin.nicey-nicey

"Which part of I don't feel like it don't you understand. Bugger off,
mate."

That's for the first time; after that, get creative.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[Shmuel Metz]

In <m52jub-...@news.leftmind.net>, on 03/28/2015
at 12:40 PM, ab...@leftmind.net (AdB) said:

>"I don't do Windows"

>Granted, I _can_ deal with the abomination of Redmond,

There's a difference between "I don't do windoze" and "I can't do
windoze". A true friend will respect either.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mf5oh3$faa$1...@news1.tnib.de>, on 03/28/2015

at 09:25 AM, Marc Haber <mh+usene...@zugschl.us> said:

>How do I do that when they don't give a damn?

If they don't give a damn then why should you? Just say no. If they
walk, they weren't friends to begin with.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mf4gkj$9j$1...@dont-email.me>, on 03/27/2015

at 10:05 PM, Juancho <jua...@notarealaddress.org> said:

>I only to computer support for people under the same roof as me.

I'm willing to help friends and family. at my leisure. I'm not willing
to do windoze and I'm not willing to be sympathetic if someone can't
be bothered to take backups. Calls at o'dark thirty will not get a
cheerful reception.

[Joe Zeff]

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:16:50 +0000, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:

> Good luck with getting that platelet count back up.

My hematologist has no idea why it's now close to normal, but he's not
about to mess things up by trying to find out.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged by reality.