FYVM, We value your business

[Shmuel Metz]

Why design a voice menu system that after making it abundantly clear
that your convenience and time have no value, end by telling me that
they value my business? If they valued my business then the would
handle my call without directing me to their web site or to a
different telephone number. That last wouldn't be so bad if they had
an automated transfer and sat on the line until the new number
ansered, but they don't.

Where are my Magnesium filings?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[Joe Zeff]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:11:24 -0400, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

> If they valued my business then the would handle my call
> without directing me to their web site or to a different telephone
> number.

What always gets me is when an ISP's tech support line does its best to
direct you to the company's website for help, ignoring the fact that for
many (if not most) callers they're using that number because they can't
*reach* the website because their connection is down.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfsinc.info
Sometimes, if you wanted to go to the ball,
you had to be your own fairy godmother.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 18/06/15 14:57, Satya wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 09:02:25 +0000, Michel wrote:
>> its current form, so if anyone should have a responsive website...
>
> "responsive websites". Hah. Isn't this basically what we (tinw) were yelling
> about since the 90s? Designed for a minimum resolution of 1024x768, are we?
> How's that working out?

It's working out pretty well. The smartness of the phone is of no
consequence. A smart /user/ will put down his phone and pick up his
laptop if he wants to look up anything important on the Web.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Richard Heathfield]

On 18/06/15 16:48, Gary Barnes wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 15:37:35 +0100, Richard Heathfield
> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> : On 18/06/15 14:57, Satya wrote:
> : > Hah. Isn't this basically what we (tinw) were yelling

> : > about since the 90s? Designed for a minimum resolution of 1024x768, are we?
> : > How's that working out?
> :
> : It's working out pretty well. The smartness of the phone is of no
> : consequence. A smart /user/ will put down his phone and pick up his
> : laptop if he wants to look up anything important on the Web.
>

> Yeah, cos there's never a situation where I have my phone with me, but my
> laptop is umpty-miles-away.

Irony noted, but you see, it doesn't matter, because you don't look at
my sites anyway. :-)

As a data point, on those occasions when my laptop is umpty-miles away,
and my other laptop is umpty-miles away, and my other other laptop is
umpty-miles away, it's probably because I'm doing my very best to get
umpty-miles away from technology. When I'm trying to pick my way through
that boggy bit about two-thirds the way up Clougha Pike, I'm far more
likely to be thinking "can I get to the top without actually killing
myself in any of several very unpleasant ways?" than "damn, no signal -
how am I going to browse the Web?"

[Richard Bos]

Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

> On 2015-06-18, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >What always gets me is when an ISP's tech support line does its best to
> >direct you to the company's website for help, ignoring the fact that for
> >many (if not most) callers they're using that number because they can't
> >*reach* the website because their connection is down.
>

> Eh, everyone has a smartphone now, right?

Wrong.

It's about fucking time _we_ in the industry, but even more _that lot_
in marketing, admitted to that.

Richard

[Richard Bos]

Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:

> (Yes, the bofh-special 1995-vintage text-with-a-bit-of-markup-style HTML
> will work anywhere obviously, if you don't count the fact that a 1600 px
> wide single column of text is a pain in the arse to read.)

Don't maximise everything, then. You're not Bill Gates.

Richard

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:01:28 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:
> Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-06-18, Joe Zeff wrote:

[...]

>>
>> Eh, everyone has a smartphone now, right?
>
> Wrong.
>
> It's about fucking time _we_ in the industry, but even more _that lot_
> in marketing, admitted to that.
>

Not just admitted but rather were openly proud of it. Some of us would spend
time to find the dumbest phone available and criple it even more. Not that
it couldn't be traced around base stations or the encryption would become
less laughable but at least no new shit is going run on it, even by SMS.
Mine doesn't have an OS to speak of, nor location services or camera.

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 08:00:28 -0000, Wojciech Derechowski wrote:

> Not just admitted but rather were openly proud of it. Some of us
> would spend time to find the dumbest phone available and criple it
> even more. Not that it couldn't be traced around base stations or the
> encryption would become less laughable but at least no new shit is
> going run on it, even by SMS. Mine doesn't have an OS to speak of, nor
> location services or camera.

If you really wanna hide, have the fancy geolocated phone. Sometimes.

--
48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology
with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it
will not immediately come after me for revenge.
--Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Richard Bos" <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:55832376...@news.xs4all.nl...

> Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

>> Eh, everyone has a smartphone now, right?
>
> Wrong.
>
> It's about fucking time _we_ in the industry, but even more _that lot_
> in marketing, admitted to that.

Well, I don't have a smartphone as such. I usually have access to one
when I want it, though.

I know better than to make jokes about 'my social secretary', because I
want to remain married to her.

But it does suit me occasionally that I can call someone, turn off the
phone again and know that they will call _her_ back. I no longer claim
to be an apolitical animal.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Shmuel Metz]

In <slrnmo7jut...@um5000.mystora.com>, on 06/19/2015

at 08:00 AM, Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> said:

>Not just admitted but rather were openly proud of it.

It hinges on whether you want a smart phone or just something that
maketing *calls* a smart pnone. I'd love to have a smartphone, at a
reasonable prioce, cinsisting of:

1. A 17"" laptop with a decent keyboard; AT or converged layout
and mini trackball on the (selectable) side.
2. Headset or handset
3. Cell and wifi interfaces
4. Firefox, OpenOffice and telephony software pre-loaaded, using a
standard address book format.
5. Optional: modem suppoprted by fax and telephony software.
6. USB ports.
7. KDE and Gnome perinstalled, with optional light-weight desktops.
8. Optional IDE; need not be on same box.
9. DVD reader
10. Backup software

No, I do not want spearate appliances for each application; I want
interoperqble applications in the same box. I might settle for a large
tablet with the same capabilities, but would find the laptop less
clumsy.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <dmugx.1857$lY....@fx31.iad>, on 06/18/2015
at 07:23 AM, Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfsinc.info>
said:

>What always gets me is when an ISP's tech support line does its best
>to direct you to the company's website for help, ignoring the fact
>that for many (if not most) callers they're using that number
>because they can't *reach* the website because their connection is
>down.

Or because the website is down.

[David Scheidt]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
:In <slrnmo7jut...@um5000.mystora.com>, on 06/19/2015

: at 08:00 AM, Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> said:

:>Not just admitted but rather were openly proud of it.

:It hinges on whether you want a smart phone or just something that
:maketing *calls* a smart pnone. I'd love to have a smartphone, at a
:reasonable prioce, cinsisting of:

: 1. A 17"" laptop with a decent keyboard; AT or converged layout

You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.

I'd bet you don't have to guess which way I'd bet.

--
sig 126

[Peter Corlett]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> It hinges on whether you want a smart phone or just something that
> maketing *calls* a smart pnone. I'd love to have a smartphone, at a
> reasonable prioce, cinsisting of:
>
> 1. A 17"" laptop with a decent keyboard; AT or converged layout
> and mini trackball on the (selectable) side.
> 2. Headset or handset

[etc]

It sounds like you want a modern version of the ICL OPD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Per_Desk

As you might expect when asking £1,500 in 1984 money (~£4,300/$7,000
today) for what was basically a Sinclair QL painted beige with a Trimphone
gaffer-taped to it, it didn't exactly fly off the shelves.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2015 20:33:03 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote:
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> It hinges on whether you want a smart phone or just something that
>> maketing *calls* a smart pnone. I'd love to have a smartphone, at a
>> reasonable prioce, cinsisting of:
>>
>> 1. A 17"" laptop with a decent keyboard; AT or converged layout
>> and mini trackball on the (selectable) side.
>> 2. Headset or handset
> [etc]
>
> It sounds like you want a modern version of the ICL OPD:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Per_Desk
>

Ah yes, a Minitel.

[Stoneshop]

No.

A Minitel is _just_ a dumb terminal with a built-in modem. The OPD is a
full-blown 1980's home computer with a built-in modem.

--
// Rik Steenwinkel
// Zevenaar, Netherlands

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mm6kb9$ies$2...@reader1.panix.com>, on 06/21/2015

at 03:13 PM, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> said:

>You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
>misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.

You have a seriously limited imagination, apparently controlled by
Madison Avenue. Or perhaps you don't understand the difference between
a laptop and a luggable.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <20150621172344....@firedrake.org>, on 06/21/2015
at 04:27 PM, Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org>
said:

>You can already get these with everything else you mentioned built in
>or loadable.

Every laptop keyboard that I've seen for years has had that stupid
touchpad in front and, no, I don't want to carry around two keyboards,
TYVM.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <slrnmoe9v5...@um5000.mystora.com>, on 06/21/2015
at 08:52 PM, Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> said:

>Ah yes, a Minitel.

Minitel may be OPD, but it's not close to the device that I described.

[David Scheidt]

"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

:In <mm6kb9$ies$2...@reader1.panix.com>, on 06/21/2015

: at 03:13 PM, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> said:

:>You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
:>misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.

:You have a seriously limited imagination, apparently controlled by
:Madison Avenue. Or perhaps you don't understand the difference between
:a laptop and a luggable.

No, I just find having a computer that fits in my pocket very handy,
for a pretty large set of tasks. A laptop doesn't fit in any of my
pockets.


--
sig 48

[Wojciech Derechowski]

Yes, thank you.

[Julian Macassey]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:20:22 -0000, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> No, I just find having a computer that fits in my pocket very handy,
> for a pretty large set of tasks. A laptop doesn't fit in any of my
> pockets.

A tailor could fix this for you.


--
"The only problem with Microsoft is that they just have no taste, they have
absolutely no taste." - Steve Jobs 1995 TV interview

[John F. Eldredge]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:11:24 -0400, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

> Why design a voice menu system that after making it abundantly clear
> that your convenience and time have no value, end by telling me that
> they value my business? If they valued my business then the would handle
> my call without directing me to their web site or to a different
> telephone number. That last wouldn't be so bad if they had an automated
> transfer and sat on the line until the new number ansered, but they
> don't.
>
> Where are my Magnesium filings?

Some years ago, a clerical worker at a hospital mistakenly signed me up
for food stamps, not by my request, even though my income was well above
being eligible for food stamps. As a result, I kept getting nagging robo-
calls about needing to come in to the food stamp office to fill out
forms. I finally resorted to calling the food stamp office to have my
name and number taken off the list.

The automated phone system turned out to have been designed by someone
with a nasty sense of humor. When you called up, you got an automated
announcement that you would not be on hold for more than ten minutes.
This turned out to be true, in a mean-spirited way. Whenever your wait
time approached the ten-minute mark, a robot voice would say, "Please
call again later", and it would hang up on you. You then had to call
back in again, having lost your place in the hold queue. I ended up
being on hold for a total of forty-five minutes before finally reaching a
human.

I suspect that the designer of the phone system was told, "No one should
be on hold for more than ten minutes", and decided to work to rule.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 23/06/15 22:57, John F. Eldredge wrote:

<snip>

> I suspect that the designer of the phone system was told, "No one should
> be on hold for more than ten minutes", and decided to work to rule.

One of my favourite examples of this is where Jim Hacker has been caught
misleading the House of Commons - the text is from memory, though, so
contents may have settled during transit.

Sir Humphrey: Minister, you said you wanted the administration figures
reduced, yes?
Jim Hacker: Yes.
Sir Humphrey: So we reduced them.
Jim Hacker [catching on at last]: But you didn't reduce the number of
administrators - you only reduced the figures!
Sir Humphrey: Of course.
Jim Hacker: That's not what I meant!
Sir Humphrey: Well, really, Minister, we are not mind-readers. You said
reduce the figures, so we reduced the figures.

[Peter Corlett]

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
[...]

> Some years ago, a clerical worker at a hospital mistakenly signed me up
> for food stamps, not by my request, even though my income was well above
> being eligible for food stamps. As a result, I kept getting nagging
> robo- calls about needing to come in to the food stamp office to fill
> out forms. I finally resorted to calling the food stamp office to have
> my name and number taken off the list.

When a large organisation has fucked up, phoning them *never* works. It's
usually quicker to write and post a letter than sit on hold to be put
through to somebody in India with a script. As a bonus, it leaves a paper
trail if escalation is required.

[Maarten Wiltink]

"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote in message
news:cuu32t...@mid.individual.net...
[...]

> I suspect that the designer of the phone system was told, "No one
> should be on hold for more than ten minutes", and decided to work
> to rule.

An old customer of an old employer went one better. Someone there had
decided that twenty minutes was enough for any phone conversation.
So after twenty minutes, you were simply disconnected. I don't know
if time on hold was included. I do know nobody coped with this by
making their telephone calls shorter.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Julian Macassey]

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:29:47 +0200, Maarten Wiltink
<maa...@kittensandcats.net> wrote:
> An old customer of an old employer went one better. Someone there had
> decided that twenty minutes was enough for any phone conversation.
> So after twenty minutes, you were simply disconnected. I don't know
> if time on hold was included. I do know nobody coped with this by
> making their telephone calls shorter.

I once worked for a subsidiary of Exxon in the days when
they decided that getting into the office automation business was
the thing to do. Exxon for a while owned a company making a fax
machine, a company making a memory typewriter (remember those?),
and a company making a Voice Mail system.

Being an oil company, they were ruled by accountants.
Every action was looked over by accountants, of course being from
the petroleum business, they had no idea what all these
electronics guys were doing, but they made rules anyhow. This of
course meant we spent our days fucking with them in various ways.
Buying toys for the lab, signing up for telecom gear etc.

But the bean counters ran in their minds a tight ship.
They watched all purchases, including the phone bill. As we were
building a Voice Mail system and had 500 pairs coming into the
building, they positively salivated over this.

Someone decided that the number of outgoing calls should
be controlled, so they took the data from our large Western
Electric Dimension PBX and had that pumped through the VAX. They
wanted a sort of all calls over twenty minutes in duration, with
the originating extension number, so they could go harass the
"Violator" about excessive call length.

Seeing as they trusted the boffins to handle this we did
a few things to keep our calls off the naughty boy list.

All calls from the lab went to /dev/nul/. All calls from
engineer's extensions that exceeded twenty minutes had the
extension re-written to that of the CEO's extension. By the way,
the CEO spent most of his day on the phone. Who was he talking
to? Mostly his stock broker it seems.

There is no way to verify that anyone went into the files
and added minutes to calls made by the accountants to put them on
their own naughty boy's list. That would be wrong.

--
"He that wishes to see his country robbed of its rights cannot be a
patriot. - Samuel Johnson: The Patriot

[Stoneshop]

Julian Macassey wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:20:22 -0000, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> No, I just find having a computer that fits in my pocket very handy,
>> for a pretty large set of tasks. A laptop doesn't fit in any of my
>> pockets.
>
> A tailor could fix this for you.

As would a chainsaw, although you're likely to encounter some loss of
functionality.

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Stoneshop" <rik....@steenwinkel.net> wrote in message
news:4kps5c-...@argus2.brick-itc.internal...

> Julian Macassey wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:20:22 -0000, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>
>> wrote:

>>> No, I just find having a computer that fits in my pocket very handy,
>>> for a pretty large set of tasks. A laptop doesn't fit in any of my
>>> pockets.
>>
>> A tailor could fix this for you.
>
> As would a chainsaw, although you're likely to encounter some loss of
> functionality.

And your pants would thereafter be very fashionable.


Is it just me, or is it stupid to buy clothes pre-torn?

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Ino]

All my clothes ultimately become fashionable - it would seem.

Some more than others, but I do draw the line at the point where my
balls could be swinging in the breeze because of the fashionable-overload.

In all seriousness though - I can't, for the life of me - understand
how someone can actually do anything through the day without being
driven absolutely bonkers by their knee popping out through the rip
every time they flex their leg. Arrrrghhh!

Ino

--
I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire
off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time,
like tears in rain. Time to die.

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <55889483$14$fuzhry+tra$mr2...@news.patriot.net>,
spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid says...

>
> In <20150621172344....@firedrake.org>, on 06/21/2015
> at 04:27 PM, Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org>
> said:
>
> >You can already get these with everything else you mentioned built in
> >or loadable.
>
> Every laptop keyboard that I've seen for years has had that stupid
> touchpad in front and, no, I don't want to carry around two keyboards,
> TYVM.

I wonder why that is? Could it be that <gasp!> the vast majority of
laptop purchasers prefer the touchpad?!?!

Nah. Impossible.

--
"You're having an internal argument with somebody named
DragonQueen42 - you're never going to win that argument."
- David Benioff, 'Game of Thrones' Producer

[LP]

On 2015-06-25, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:
>
> I like my pants unfashionably functional, and tend to replace them
> well before the state of wear starts to reach fashionable levels.

I gave up wearing denim about 2 years ago (for no good reason other than
I felt like it) and that makes me sufficiently unfashionable that it's
actually not that easy to find nice, casual trousers which aren't sports
wear - at least not on the highstreet.

I'm currently wearing a very comfortable pair of M&S green cords[1], which
I really like - unfortunately they've stopped making them in this colour
and I didn't think to buy multiple pairs at the time.

I've had to make a couple of minor repairs to them (mostly to the pockets
or belt loops, as I'm harder on those than I am on the knees) and I'll
keep doing that until either I find another pair, or it's impractical to
continue repairing them.

-Paul
[1] I'm surprised they let me shop in there, as I'm not even 40 yet.
--
http://paulseward.com

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:21:13 +0000, Michel wrote:
> The vast majority of laptop purchasers have no taste, are skint, and
> don't usually spend as much as a single thought on any of this stuff
> and just run with whatever comes with their boxshifter-special Acer.
>
> At best they'll consider the physical size of the thing, how fast the
> cpu is and maybe memory, probably in that order. Or whether they like
> the colour...
>
> Hence the proliferation of shite keyboards, dodgy touchpads, general
> lack of battery capacity, sturdiness, attention to detail etc, that
> then proceed to become "industry standard" and show up on the high
> end stuff as well.

That's because most people tend to want to use their computer both at
home and at a hotel or office, next to the plug, rather than at home
and up a mountain. If the battery gets them the time to finish the task
they're on and shut down cleanly during a black-out, that's enough.
$recovery_laptop has a nice 3D display, good audio, enough memory and
GPU to run Guild Wars 2 adequately, and enough battery to make it 45
minutes and that's what I want from it. $ork_laptop has barely enough
memory, adequate CPU for SSH, a clitmouse, and enough battery to last
for nearly six hours, which I basically never use.

--
67. No matter how many shorts we have in the system, my guards will be
instructed to treat every surveillance camera malfunction as a
full-scale emergency.
--Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

[LP]

On 2015-06-26, Dave Ewart <da...@sungate.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:01:38 +0000 (UTC), LP <use...@lpbk.net> wrote:
>
>> [...]and I didn't think to buy multiple pairs at the time [...]
>
> This is my own personal sign of not being fashionable, namely when you
> find something you actually like in a shop, buying multiple identical
> items.

I do that with shoes (mostly because I have stupidly small feet which
makes buying shoes such a pain in the arse that when I find something
comfortable I immediately buy multiples)

With trousers, I don't really know if I like them until I've worn them
a fair bit. I thought with M&S I'd have plenty of time to go back and
buy the multiples. By the time I went back, they'd stopped making them
in the colour I like, and there was no stock available in my size
nationally.

I've been kicking myself (and scouring ebay) ever since.

> My record for simultaneous purchase of multiple items is *four* for
> jeans and *six* for shirts.[1]

I only ever buy shirts if I've got a wedding to go to. No chance of
me wearing a collar unless I absolutely have to.

-Paul
--
http://paulseward.com

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:33:55 +0000 (UTC), Dave Ewart <da...@sungate.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> This is my own personal sign of not being fashionable, namely when you
> find something you actually like in a shop, buying multiple identical
> items.
>

> My record for simultaneous purchase of multiple items is *four* for
> jeans and *six* for shirts.[1]

In the Murrican workplace, having several identical
shirts can cause rumours.

I often have four or five identical shirts, once I wore
the same style several days in a row. A colleague told me that
there was a rumour going round that I wasn't sleeping at home
(having an affair) these days.

The only exception to this rule would be if you work in a
service industry where your name and company is embroidered on
the shirt.


--
Germany is known as 'the land where Israelis learned their manners'.
- P. J. O'Rourke

[Dan Bissonnette]

In article <95iv5c-...@rubberchicken.nocrap>, ab...@rubberchicken.nl
says...

> >> Every laptop keyboard that I've seen for years has had that stupid
> >> touchpad in front and, no, I don't want to carry around two keyboards,
> >> TYVM.
> >
> > I wonder why that is? Could it be that <gasp!> the vast majority of
> > laptop purchasers prefer the touchpad?!?!
> >
> > Nah. Impossible.
>

> Nuance:

>
> The vast majority of laptop purchasers have no taste, are skint, and
> don't usually spend as much as a single thought on any of this stuff
> and just run with whatever comes with their boxshifter-special Acer.
>
> At best they'll consider the physical size of the thing, how fast the
> cpu is and maybe memory, probably in that order. Or whether they like
> the colour...
>
> Hence the proliferation of shite keyboards, dodgy touchpads, general
> lack of battery capacity, sturdiness, attention to detail etc, that
> then proceed to become "industry standard" and show up on the high
> end stuff as well.

<shrug> Then bring your market power to bear! Boycott these
miscreants!

Nuance.

[Alexander Schreiber]

Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:33:55 +0000 (UTC), Dave Ewart <da...@sungate.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> This is my own personal sign of not being fashionable, namely when you
>> find something you actually like in a shop, buying multiple identical
>> items.
>>
>> My record for simultaneous purchase of multiple items is *four* for
>> jeans and *six* for shirts.[1]
>
> In the Murrican workplace, having several identical
> shirts can cause rumours.
>
> I often have four or five identical shirts, once I wore
> the same style several days in a row. A colleague told me that
> there was a rumour going round that I wasn't sleeping at home
> (having an affair) these days.

WTF? How does that follow from wearing the (same looking, but different)
shirt several days in a row? Whoever spreads this kind of rumour _really_
needs to get his/her/its head out of the gutter.

Upon seeing a cow-orker wearing the "same" shirt several days in
a row I would assume that
a) he's got a pile of those exact shirts and just goes through them or
b) he keeps wearing the same shirt several days in a row for
$REASON (which is not my business unless the shirt stinks up
the office at which point a few quiet, private, polite words
are necessary)

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

[Peter Corlett]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> Every laptop keyboard that I've seen for years has had that stupid
> touchpad in front and, no, I don't want to carry around two keyboards,
> TYVM.

There are two quite different touchpad technologies available, which can
indeed basically be called "stupid touchpad" and "touchpad that actually
works". This would normally be considered UI, except that vendors of
Wintendo laptops make it nigh-impossible to figure out which kind they
actually use on a particular model.

Me, I just threw money at the problem and got a fruity machine. The
touchpad's even good enough for gaming, which might come in handy if you
happen to play either of the games available for FruitOS.

[Maarten Wiltink]

"LP" <use...@lpbk.net> wrote in message
news:slrnmoqlig...@benrinnes.dreamhost.com...

> On 2015-06-26, Dave Ewart <da...@sungate.co.uk> wrote:

>> This is my own personal sign of not being fashionable, namely when you
>> find something you actually like in a shop, buying multiple identical
>> items.
>
> I do that with shoes (mostly because I have stupidly small feet which
> makes buying shoes such a pain in the arse that when I find something
> comfortable I immediately buy multiples)

I tend to buy two pairs of shoes at a time, not because they're
hard to find but because I sweat like the proverbial horse, so if
I've worn a pair of shoes for a day, they need a day to dry.

As a consequence, I now have five pairs of dance shoes lined up under
the radiator in the living room. The previous pair of pairs I kept for
the Tango lessons, because they have a different floor, and the current
pair of pairs got company from a single pair I bought the time when the
six of us rented a van and drove to the other side of the country to,
er, buy shoes.


[...]

> I only ever buy shirts if I've got a wedding to go to. No chance of
> me wearing a collar unless I absolutely have to.

Two jobs ago there was a dress code when I started, so I bought a
supply of shirts. All of three weeks later, it was abolished and I
could have started wearing T-shirts again. Never did. Now I wear a
shirt everywhere, and outside a (usually straw, weather permitting)
hat. Getting preppy in my old age...

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Richard Bos]

ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) wrote:

> Me, I just threw money at the problem and got a fruity machine. The
> touchpad's even good enough for gaming, which might come in handy if you
> happen to play either of the games available for FruitOS.

Surely both NetHack and Zork require a proper keyboard?

Richard

[Stoneshop]

Dan Bissonnette wrote:

> I wonder why that is? Could it be that <gasp!> the vast majority of
> laptop purchasers prefer the touchpad?!?!

The vast, nay, overwhelming majority of lusers are lusers, and just use what
they've been presented with.

[Mans Nilsson]

Den 2015-06-21 skrev David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>:

> You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
> misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.

"Mobile" does not imply "Portable". cf. "Mobile Crane".

--
Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina
MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668
... I think I'd better go back to my DESK and toy with a few common
MISAPPREHENSIONS ...

[mikea]

Mans Nilsson <mans...@besserwisser.org> wrote in <slrnmp5jf2....@jaja.besserwisser.org>:

> Den 2015-06-21 skrev David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>:
>
>> You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
>> misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.
>
> "Mobile" does not imply "Portable". cf. "Mobile Crane".

My experience, in the military and in amateur radio, is that

"Mobile" => "handles won't help" or "not meant to be hand-carried".
"Portable" => "has, and *needs*, handles".
"Handy" => "doesn't need, or too small for, handles".

--
Mike Andrews, W5EGO
mi...@mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin

[mikea]

Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote in <emjc6c-...@rubberchicken.nocrap>:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:25:20 -0500, mikea wrote:
>> My experience, in the military and in amateur radio, is that
>

>> "Portable" => "has, and *needs*, handles".
>

> Wasn't that the one about welding a handle to the deck of a battleship?

That's not one I'd heard before, but it certainly is apposite here.

--
"The bullets are just his way of saying 'Keep it down, I've got a
hangover.'"
-- Kiki to Dr. Schlock,
as seen in http://pics.sluggy.com/images/comics/000108a.gif

[John F. Eldredge]

On my personal laptop, running Linux, I have a package installed that, if
it detects a mouse attached to the computer, will automatically disable
the touchpad. I dislike touchpads because their capacitative sensing
often means that they detect the presence of your thumbs a fraction of an
inch above the touchpad while you are typing. This results in the cursor
suddenly moving to a different part of the screen, and the text you were
typing being inserted in the wrong place.

[Stoneshop]

Mans Nilsson wrote:

> Den 2015-06-21 skrev David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>:
>
>> You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
>> misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.
>
> "Mobile" does not imply "Portable". cf. "Mobile Crane".

There's an entire city called "Mobile". I daresay it isn't.

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Michel" <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote in message
news:6o7d6c-...@rubberchicken.nocrap...

[...]
> A quick giggle turns up this, from 'random', apparently:
>
> In the Navy portable meant there was a handle on it somewhere. If you
> welded a handle to the flight deck we could make a label for 'Carrier,
> aircraft, portable. Extremely heavy, lift with care'. Much like the
> 'portable' test rig we used that weighed on the order of 280 lbs.

Our tango school, which recently moved, has a (working) piano of about
that weight. (It also has a gutted and much lighter one for decorative
purposes only. I can confirm that a piano-looking object with two candle-
holders next to the sheet music does look quite decorative.)

So the piano had to go into a van, and then out of the van and into the
new building. With four people to carry it, this turned out much easier
than I thought.

Doing the math for how many people it would take to lift an aircraft
carrier by the edge of the flight deck is left as an exercise to another
reader.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Peter Corlett]

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 15:27:43 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote:

[...]

>> There are two quite different touchpad technologies available, which
>> can indeed basically be called "stupid touchpad" and "touchpad that
>> actually works". This would normally be considered UI, except that
>> vendors of Wintendo laptops make it nigh-impossible to figure out which

>> kind they actually use on a particular model. [...]

> On my personal laptop, running Linux, I have a package installed that,
> if it detects a mouse attached to the computer, will automatically
> disable the touchpad. I dislike touchpads because their capacitative
> sensing often means that they detect the presence of your thumbs a
> fraction of an inch above the touchpad while you are typing. This
> results in the cursor suddenly moving to a different part of the screen,
> and the text you were typing being inserted in the wrong place.

See now, you've suffered from two poor technology choices interacting in a
way that's worse than the sum of the parts. The first is that you're using
a machine with "stupid touchpad". If it's company-mandated, I feel your
pain; if you bought it yourself, I shall just point and laugh. The second
is that you appear to be using focus-follows-mouse. I appreciate that
focus-follows-mouse versus click-to-focus is a religious issue, but in the
face of your crap hardware, you may wish to reconsider this.

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> said:
>On Wed, 01 Jul 2015 20:17:33 +0200, Stoneshop
><rik....@steenwinkel.net> wrote:
>: There's an entire city called "Mobile". I daresay it isn't.
>
>As far as I can tell, though, that's pronounced like an invoice for
>gardening services.

More like "mow-BEEL", or even "mow-BE-ul" I'd say, as a native from a
city at the opposite end of the same state (apparently, we like sylables
so much we add extras to as many words as possible!). That's even one
of the "less odd" place names in this state (I know every area has some
odd local names, but there sure seem to be wide variety around here).

--
Chris Adams <cma...@cmadams.net>

[The Horny Goat]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:49:26 +0000, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl>
wrote:

>A quick giggle turns up this, from 'random', apparently:
>
> In the Navy portable meant there was a handle on it somewhere. If you
> welded a handle to the flight deck we could make a label for 'Carrier,
> aircraft, portable. Extremely heavy, lift with care'. Much like the
> 'portable' test rig we used that weighed on the order of 280 lbs.

Sounds like the Army surplus shortwave radio (transmitter component
removed - Korean War vintage I believe) my father got me in the late
60s / early 70s - big, black and a bit bigger than my current 'tower'
sitting on the floor beside me.

40 years later am still unsure why he thought he had the right to sell
it without my permission....but boy was that thing a brick!

[Julian Macassey]

On Thu, 02 Jul 2015 10:46:12 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>
> Sounds like the Army surplus shortwave radio (transmitter component
> removed - Korean War vintage I believe) my father got me in the late
> 60s / early 70s - big, black and a bit bigger than my current 'tower'
> sitting on the floor beside me.
>
> 40 years later am still unsure why he thought he had the right to sell
> it without my permission....but boy was that thing a brick!

I had a portable WWII shortwave receiver, the Marconi
CR100.

How portable was it? It weighed 83 lbs. I was never
worried about anyone stealing it.

My next mil-surp shortwave receiver was the truly
portable R209. It weighed a handy 23 lbs. 12V PSU extra.


--
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 2 Jul 2015 19:14:29 +0000 (UTC), Julian Macassey
<jul...@tele.com> wrote:

>> 40 years later am still unsure why he thought he had the right to sell
>> it without my permission....but boy was that thing a brick!
>
> I had a portable WWII shortwave receiver, the Marconi
>CR100.
>
> How portable was it? It weighed 83 lbs. I was never
>worried about anyone stealing it.
>
> My next mil-surp shortwave receiver was the truly
>portable R209. It weighed a handy 23 lbs. 12V PSU extra.

As a young teenager I mostly remember the shocked reaction from my
grandmother when I started getting QSL cards from various Eastern Bloc
countries (this is late 60s/ early 70s) - the Cubans and Chinese
always had the most colorful stamps!

(Though from a technical point of view my favorites were the cards
from US AM radio stations based on reports mostly late at night when
the 'skip' was just right)

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2015-07-01, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Jul 2015 22:08:36 +0200, Maarten Wiltink wrote:
>> Doing the math for how many people it would take to lift an aircraft
>> carrier by the edge of the flight deck is left as an exercise to another
>> reader.
>

> Indeed, and doing the math on how many ladders they would need is
> left to yet another reader.

Never mind how many orthopaedic surgeons will be needed after the
event...

[Wojciech Derechowski]

Never mind indeed, since surgeons shouldn't read. Or was that the dentists?
Yup. See Painless Pole, for instance, the operator of the Pride of Hamtramck
and the Poker/Dental Clinic of the 4077th MASH.

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[Alexander Schreiber]

Stoneshop <rik....@steenwinkel.net> wrote:
> Mans Nilsson wrote:
>
>> Den 2015-06-21 skrev David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>:
>>
>>> You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
>>> misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.
>>
>> "Mobile" does not imply "Portable". cf. "Mobile Crane".
>
> There's an entire city called "Mobile". I daresay it isn't.

Depends on much heavy equipment you can scrounge up for the job.

SCNR,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

[Stoneshop]

Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> Stoneshop <rik....@steenwinkel.net> wrote:
>> Mans Nilsson wrote:
>>
>>> Den 2015-06-21 skrev David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com>:
>>>
>>>> You have either seriousy large pockets, or a seriously large
>>>> misunderstanding of what 'mobile' actually means.
>>>
>>> "Mobile" does not imply "Portable". cf. "Mobile Crane".
>>
>> There's an entire city called "Mobile". I daresay it isn't.
>
> Depends on much heavy equipment you can scrounge up for the job.

"... with the aid of his friends, and his friends' friends, and his friends'
friends' friends, and his friend's friends' friends' friends, and some
rather less good friends of theirs who happened to own a major stellar
trucking company."

[Steve VanDevender]

Stoneshop <rik....@steenwinkel.net> writes:

> There's an entire city called "Mobile". I daresay it isn't.

You just need a spindizzy.

--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://hexadecimal.uoregon.edu/
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8
Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns
Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes

[Luke]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:01:28 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:

> Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

>> Eh, everyone has a smartphone now, right?
>
> Wrong.

Well here's just the smartphone for those here that still haven't got one:

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/commodore-smartphone

Commodore Pet phone with both Commodore C64 & Amiga emulators installed.

[Steve VanDevender]

I have to admit I was rather taken with the "Apple II Watch" concept
piece someone came up with.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Apple-II-Watch

[Peter Corlett]

Luke <lu...@NOtingerson.org.SPAMuk> wrote:
[...]

> Well here's just the smartphone for those here that still haven't got one:
> http://www.wired.com/2015/07/commodore-smartphone
> Commodore Pet phone with both Commodore C64 & Amiga emulators installed.

Oh, look, it turns out to be an Android phone with a Mediatek chipset. So
a cost-reduced piece of shit[0] that's liable to come with some free
special Chinese software that ineptly tries to hide under the radar[1]. I
bet the emulators will be chokka with pirate software as well.

A Companies House search for "Commodore Business Machines Limited" is most
instructive, as is a wander around the area (or Streetview) to look at the
address. The pub next door used to be an proper East End boozer with a
large range of excellent beers, right until the hipsters moved in and
destroyed it.


[0] Which is not reflected in the actual selling price, of course.

[1] My grey-import "ChiPhone" is like this.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mmmfdf$tcp$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, on 06/27/2015

at 03:27 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>There are two quite different touchpad technologies available,
>which can indeed basically be called "stupid touchpad" and
>"touchpad that actually works".

FSVO works; it still displaces they keys from their comfortable
locations.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mmbtfj$5ek$1...@reader1.panix.com>, on 06/23/2015
at 03:20 PM, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> said:

>No, I just find having a computer that fits in my pocket very handy,

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that only what its in your pocket is
mobile. I'd define it in terms of weight and battery life.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <u35o5c...@rubberchicken.nocrap>, on 06/23/2015
at 01:55 PM, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> said:

>On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 19:04:35 -0400, Shmuel Metz wrote:
>> at 04:27 PM, Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org>
>>>You can already get these with everything else you mentioned built in
>>>or loadable.

>>
>> Every laptop keyboard that I've seen for years has had that stupid
>> touchpad in front and, no, I don't want to carry around two keyboards,
>> TYVM.

>Haven't seen much of the Thinkpad X-series over the years, then?

How does *adding* a "clit mouse" to a keyboard with a touch pad shift
the keys down to the bottom edge, where they belong?

[Peter Corlett]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:
>> There are two quite different touchpad technologies available, which
>> can indeed basically be called "stupid touchpad" and "touchpad that
>> actually works".
> FSVO works; it still displaces they keys from their comfortable
> locations.

WorksForMe(TM), at least on this 'ere ZnpObbx Ceb. If the actual "problem"
is that it doesn't have the ergonomics of an IBM Model M, that's perhaps
because said kybard is larger, heavier, and quite possibly consumes more
power than my laptop.

If you want desktop ergonomics, you're going to have to actually use
desktop components on a desk that has space for your optimal layout.
<UI> Vs lbh pna trg bire gur oenaq naq fghcvq anzvat, Nccyr'f Zntvp
Genpxcnq vf na BF-ntabfgvp Oyhrgbbgu "gbhpucnq gung npghnyyl jbexf", naq
znl or cbfvgvbarq naljurer eryngvir gb lbhe pubvpr bs cebcre xloneq. </UI>

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mo623b$9ah$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, on 07/15/2015

at 04:34 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>If the actual "problem"
>is that it doesn't have the ergonomics of an IBM Model M,

Whoosh!

>If you want desktop ergonomics,

I don't.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <lrsh7c-...@rubberchicken.nocrap>, on 07/15/2015
at 11:30 AM, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> said:

>On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 19:50:31 -0400, Shmuel Metz wrote:
>> at 01:55 PM, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> said:
>>>On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 19:04:35 -0400, Shmuel Metz wrote:
>>>> Every laptop keyboard that I've seen for years has had that stupid
>>>> touchpad in front and, no, I don't want to carry around two keyboards,
>>>> TYVM.
>>
>>>Haven't seen much of the Thinkpad X-series over the years, then?
>>
>> How does *adding* a "clit mouse" to a keyboard with a touch pad shift
>> the keys down to the bottom edge, where they belong?

>Exactly none of the five Thinkpads I've owned have had a touch pad.


All three of the stinkpads my friend recently bought have one.
Admittedly not bleeding edge.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <k0fpx.113579$kO5....@fx17.am4>, on 07/14/2015

at 09:18 PM, Luke <lu...@NOtingerson.org.SPAMuk> said:

>Well here's just the smartphone for those here that still haven't got
>one:

That sentence is wrong just on syntactic grounds; the &foo for people
who haven't got &bar promisees omniscience.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 22:34:34 +0000, Shmuel Metz wrote:
> In <k0fpx.113579$kO5....@fx17.am4>, on 07/14/2015
> at 09:18 PM, Luke <lu...@NOtingerson.org.SPAMuk> said:
>
>>Well here's just the smartphone for those here that still haven't got
>>one:
>
> That sentence is wrong just on syntactic grounds; the &foo for people
> who haven't got &bar promisees omniscience.
>

No, not as such. But take the proposition "smartphone is a phone for me". From
what we know about the verb "is" (Leśniewski), a is b iff (1) for each c, if c
is a, then c is b (2) for some c, c is a (3) for each c and d, if c is a and
d is a, then c is d. Now, each proposition "a is b" with general term as the
subject must be false (sic!) since it implies some false cosequence by (3).
For instance: if c is a smartphone and d is a smartphone, then c is d, where
c an Android smartphone and d an iOS smartphone.

[Peter Corlett]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:
>> If the actual "problem" is that it doesn't have the ergonomics of an
>> IBM Model M,
> Whoosh!

>> If you want desktop ergonomics,
> I don't.

Aha, I've determined the actual problem. You failed to articulate your
actual problem, and are snarky about a possible solution offered in the
face of insufficient information. In other words, the problem is that
you're being a luser.

[Joe Zeff]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 18:34:34 -0400, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

> In <k0fpx.113579$kO5....@fx17.am4>, on 07/14/2015
> at 09:18 PM, Luke <lu...@NOtingerson.org.SPAMuk> said:
>
>>Well here's just the smartphone for those here that still haven't got
>>one:
>
> That sentence is wrong just on syntactic grounds; the &foo for people
> who haven't got &bar promisees omniscience.

There's also an un-spoken assumption here: it's assuming that anybody who
doesn't already have a smartphone wants one even though the fact that
they don't have one suggests that they don't have one because they don't
want to own one.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfsinc.info
Stop listening to voices outside your head
and listen to the ones inside for a while.

[Luke]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 23:52:13 +0000, Roger Bell_West wrote:

> I would be happy with a FOSS box that fitted in my pocket.
>
> This is not an available product.

The Pocket C.H.I.P might be for you: https://vimeo.com/129070031 though I
guess you'd need pockets on the large side.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <slrnmqh6ha...@um5000.mystora.com>, on 07/17/2015
at 05:42 AM, Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> said:

>No, not as such.

How does "Well here's just the smartphone for those here that still
haven't got one:" not promise[1] to know what is going on in the heads
of those people?

>From what we know about the verb "is"

Korzybsky claimed that "is" had 23 distinct meanings; two are relevand
here

Identity; obvously not the intent here

Subclass: every a is b.

You seem to be taking the first meaning, which is not relevant here.


[1] A broken promise, since they obviosly either don't know what I
want or are lying about it. No, it's *not* a smartphone for me.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <moaro3$ga$1...@vserver-5.cabal.org.uk>, on 07/17/2015

at 12:17 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>Aha, I've determined the actual problem. You failed to articulate
>your actual problem,

My actual problem is to find a device that I consider satisfactory. I
articulated a set of requirements, which none of the responses
satisfied.

>luser

PKB. It's not my fault if you can't read or go "la, la, la I can't
hear you."

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 15:03:00 +0000, Shmuel Metz wrote:
[...]

> Korzybsky claimed that "is" had 23 distinct meanings; two are relevand
> here
>
> Identity; obvously not the intent here
>
> Subclass: every a is b.
>
> You seem to be taking the first meaning, which is not relevant here.

Assuming "x is relevand" iff "x is relevant", that's a bit rushed. Anyway
no need to get so worked up about Korzybski when you are given the single
axiom of the (formal) system of Leśniewski's ontology. Read the equivalence
again. You can see almost immediately that identity, equality of extensions
and other "relevant" terms can be defined in the system.

[Richard Bos]

ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) wrote:

> John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > Some years ago, a clerical worker at a hospital mistakenly signed me up
> > for food stamps, not by my request, even though my income was well above
> > being eligible for food stamps. As a result, I kept getting nagging
> > robo- calls about needing to come in to the food stamp office to fill
> > out forms. I finally resorted to calling the food stamp office to have
> > my name and number taken off the list.
>
> When a large organisation has fucked up, phoning them *never* works. It's
> usually quicker to write and post a letter than sit on hold to be put
> through to somebody in India with a script. As a bonus, it leaves a paper
> trail if escalation is required.

Oh, and _keep copies for yourself_. Don't trust on the other party to
keep the paper trail complete.

Richard