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Calculating... calculating... calculating...

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Alan J Rosenthal

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Jul 31, 2014, 9:57:21 PM7/31/14
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Something that's been pissing me off these days is, in all those stupid
little quizzes going around, after you complete the quiz, some of them
bring you to a web page where it says "calculating..." and spins for a
few seconds, then gives you the answer. It is NOT FUCKING CALCULATING!
It's just a stupid animation which they thought made it seem like the
garbage it eventually dispenses is more profound.

I just completed one such quiz, and while the stupid thing was spinning
saying "calculating...", I noticed that the final value was already in the
title bar of the web page! And then it indeed said that same number in the
text after a few seconds. Just in case you doubted I was right about this.

I've been thinking a bit about why this pisses me off so much. One could
argue that this "calculating..." thing is just minor theatrics. But it
pisses me off because it's bullshit, because it's pretending that adding
a few numbers together is much harder than it is. It's falsehood for
falsehood's sake, like crime television shows or belief in UFOs.

Computers could work so much better than they do, if people weren't morons.
Life in general would be much better.

David Cameron Staples

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Jul 31, 2014, 10:21:12 PM7/31/14
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On 1/08/14 11:57 AM, Alan J Rosenthal wrote:
> [I]f people weren't morons[,]
> Life in general would be much better.

FTFY.

--
David Cameron Staples | staples AT unimelb DOT edu DOT au
Melbourne University | ITS | Hosting | Unix Operations
I think the people above me are having sex
either that or they're sleeping restlessly and agreeing with each other
a lot.
-- bash.org/?6562
Message has been deleted

Richard Bos

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Aug 1, 2014, 8:29:02 AM8/1/14
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fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) wrote:

> I've been thinking a bit about why this pisses me off so much. One could
> argue that this "calculating..." thing is just minor theatrics. But it
> pisses me off because it's bullshit, because it's pretending that adding
> a few numbers together is much harder than it is. It's falsehood for
> falsehood's sake, like crime television shows or belief in UFOs.

What pisses me off most about such things is not that they make that
calculation seem harder, but that they make calculation seem hard _at
all_. It's not that it makes tallying-up seem a hard kind of arithmetic,
it's that it makes the usual lit-crit-major whine of "but numbers are
haaaaarrrddd!! I shouldn't be made to do this, I should be allowed to
give my opinion without understanding that you can't have more than 100%
of something!"
Yes, higher maths can be ball-breakingly hard. But arithmetic _is not_.
And higher maths is something the vast majority of people will never
even have seen, not even in high school. Group theory, higher-
dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions, yes, you're
allowed to be daunted by those. But not by anything you learned in grade
school. Not by adding up, or even long division or square roots.

If you have the brains to know the difference between they're and their,
or even if you only have the brains to know Beyonce from Rihanna, then
yes, damn it, you also owe it to yourself and to the world around you to
be able to add up your shopping list and know the difference between
2**3 and 3**2. Stop making excuses, you dumb journos.

Richard

Wojciech Derechowski

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Aug 1, 2014, 5:03:04 PM8/1/14
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On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:29:02 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:
[...]
> Yes, higher maths can be ball-breakingly hard. But arithmetic _is not_.

You mean Peano arithmetic? Let n* be a successor of n, the number next after n
with respect to size such that no natural number lies between it and n in the
set of natural numbers N as described in Arithmeticas principia nova methodo
exposita, Torino 1889, by Giuseppe:

A1. 0 is in N.
A2. If n is in N, then n* is in N.
A3. If n is in N, then n* != 0.
A4. If n, m are in N and n* == m*, then n == m.
A5. If Z is any set such that

(a) 0 is in Z,
(b) for any n, from n in Z it follows that n* is in Z,

then every natural number (every element of N) is in Z.

For the sake of example let's prove The Property 1: 0 != 0*, i.e. zero is not
equal to its successor.

Proof. From A3 zero is not a successor of any natural number, including zero,
which by A1 is a natural number.

Show The Property 2: If n is in N and n != n*, then n* != n** (n** meaning the
successor of n*).

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 2, 2014, 9:14:43 PM8/2/14
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In <53db85b0...@news.xs4all.nl>, on 08/01/2014
at 12:29 PM, ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) said:

>Yes, higher maths can be ball-breakingly hard. But arithmetic _is
>not_. And higher maths is something the vast majority of people
>will never even have seen, not even in high school. Group theory,
>higher-dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions,
>yes, you're allowed to be daunted by those.

Actually, those are mostly undergraduate subjects.

Now Analytic Number Theory can get hairy, and Algebraic Geometry isn't
as simple as it once was.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

Richard Bos

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Aug 3, 2014, 5:50:08 AM8/3/14
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Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> at 12:29 PM, ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) said:
>
> >Yes, higher maths can be ball-breakingly hard. But arithmetic _is
> >not_. And higher maths is something the vast majority of people
> >will never even have seen, not even in high school. Group theory,
> >higher-dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions,
> >yes, you're allowed to be daunted by those.
>
> Actually, those are mostly undergraduate subjects.

Yes, which is why I'll allow a journo, lit critter or politician, who
hasn't done maths beyond high school level, to be daunted by them.

But not counting on your fingers. No, not even if they need their toes
as well.

Richard

Alan J Rosenthal

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Aug 3, 2014, 4:41:53 PM8/3/14
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ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) writes:
>If you have the brains to know the difference between they're and their,
>or even if you only have the brains to know Beyonce from Rihanna, then
>yes, damn it, you also owe it to yourself and to the world around you to
>be able to add up your shopping list and know the difference between
>2**3 and 3**2. Stop making excuses, you dumb journos.

And everyone else. I recall a middle-aged adult telling a roomful of
people that he had just recently come to understand that "a billion" is a
larger number than "a million". And I'm thinking jesus fucking christ,
how can you be a responsible citizen if you can't tell the difference
between a proposal to spend a million dollars on something and a proposal
to spend a billion dollars on something?

Joe Zeff

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Aug 4, 2014, 3:51:31 AM8/4/14
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On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:41:53 +0000, Alan J Rosenthal wrote:

> And I'm thinking jesus fucking christ,
> how can you be a responsible citizen if you can't tell the difference
> between a proposal to spend a million dollars on something and a
> proposal to spend a billion dollars on something?

One of the reasons that we have the type of people running the country
that we do is the fact that you don't have to *be* a responsible citizen
in order to vote.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
Complaining about the wait times doesn't make them shorter.

David DeLaney

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Aug 4, 2014, 10:32:39 AM8/4/14
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On 2014-08-01, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> And higher maths is something the vast majority of people will never
> even have seen, not even in high school.

Especially not in high school over Here across the Big Pond. If you're lucky
and smart and skip having to take geometry, you might get to start the first
year of calculus in high school, simple derivatives and integrals, and the
epsilon-delta stuff that the teacher doesn't actually know how to teach right.

> Group theory, higher-
> dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions, yes, you're
> allowed to be daunted by those. But not by anything you learned in grade
> school. Not by adding up, or even long division or square roots.

(psst - it's been rather a long time since taking square root by hand was
taught in public grade schools Over Here, as such. Just to depress you further,
you know.)

Dave, especially since now anyone can ask their phone to do it. A Feeling Of
Power as near-term prediction...
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Maarten Wiltink

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Aug 4, 2014, 11:40:22 AM8/4/14
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"Joe Zeff" <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote in message
news:53df3b83$0$30990$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com...
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:41:53 +0000, Alan J Rosenthal wrote:

>> And I'm thinking jesus fucking christ,
>> how can you be a responsible citizen if you can't tell the difference
>> between a proposal to spend a million dollars on something and a
>> proposal to spend a billion dollars on something?
>
> One of the reasons that we have the type of people running the
> country that we do is the fact that you don't have to *be* a
> responsible citizen in order to vote.

I have a great idea. Let's introduce that.

And an exam for prospective parents.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink


Maarten Wiltink

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Aug 4, 2014, 11:43:40 AM8/4/14
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"David DeLaney" <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:g_qdnW2o0dkaBELO...@earthlink.com...
[...]
> (psst - it's been rather a long time since taking square root by hand
> was taught in public grade schools Over Here, as such. ...

I learned a few approximation algorithms in various schools, where square
roots were used as handy examples of them. But not square roots as such.

My dad taught me that, at home, when I was seven or so.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink


Message has been deleted

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 4, 2014, 11:28:59 AM8/4/14
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In <g_qdnW2o0dkaBELO...@earthlink.com>, on 08/04/2014
at 09:32 AM, David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> said:

>(psst - it's been rather a long time since taking square root by
>hand was taught in public grade schools Over Here, as such.

I saw an old HS Algebra text that taught the extraction of cube roots.
However, it looked more tedious than daunting. Certainly less
challenging than, e.g., a rigorous class in Calculus or Euclidean
Geometry.

David Scheidt

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Aug 4, 2014, 1:09:45 PM8/4/14
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Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
:In <g_qdnW2o0dkaBELO...@earthlink.com>, on 08/04/2014
: at 09:32 AM, David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> said:

:>(psst - it's been rather a long time since taking square root by
:>hand was taught in public grade schools Over Here, as such.

:I saw an old HS Algebra text that taught the extraction of cube roots.
:However, it looked more tedious than daunting. Certainly less
:challenging than, e.g., a rigorous class in Calculus or Euclidean
:Geometry.

I got taught how to do it in the 7th or 8th grade (age 13 or so).
I forget how to do it, exactly, but I'm sure I can work it out.
Tedious is right, I remember that much. (And I had to do it as an
exercise in some CS class, and used a lookup table, which tells me
tedious is right...)


--
sig 23

Maarten Wiltink

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Aug 4, 2014, 4:13:18 PM8/4/14
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"David Scheidt" <dsch...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:lroeop$e8p$1...@reader1.panix.com...

> I got taught how to <take cube roots> it in the 7th or 8th grade
> (age 13 or so). I forget how to do it, exactly, but I'm sure I can
> work it out. Tedious is right, I remember that much. (And I had to
> do it as an exercise in some CS class, and used a lookup table, which
> tells me tedious is right...)

That's odd. Because computers don't get bored. They'll happily make
rectangular blocks that look more and more like cubes for milliseconds
on end.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink


David Scheidt

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Aug 4, 2014, 5:02:26 PM8/4/14
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Maarten Wiltink <maa...@kittensandcats.net> wrote:
:"David Scheidt" <dsch...@panix.com> wrote in message
I'm pretty sure some of our servers get bored, and refuse to work,
until they're given adequte attention and ear scratching.
Nevertheless, a solution that uses a lookup table for part of the
answer is a pretty good sign that working the answer out by hand or by
paw would be tedious.


--
It makes me feel good knowing that with extensive training, weight
loss and a large capital expenditure, I can fly further than a
flightless chicken. -- Jay Beattie.

Richard Bos

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Aug 5, 2014, 9:17:46 AM8/5/14
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David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 2014-08-01, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> > Group theory, higher-
> > dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions, yes, you're
> > allowed to be daunted by those. But not by anything you learned in grade
> > school. Not by adding up, or even long division or square roots.
>
> (psst - it's been rather a long time since taking square root by hand was
> taught in public grade schools Over Here, as such. Just to depress you further,
> you know.)

Well, _taking_ square roots by hand, not over here, either. As so many
here, I was taught that by my father. But the _concept_ of a square
root, very definitely. And you learn (or learned) the squares of numbers
at least up to ten, often a few more. But apparently most people are
incapable of connecting the two ideas, and working out that if 8 squared
is 64, and 9 squared is 81, then the square root of 70 must be eight
point something.
That's all I ask for. A _basic_ understanding of the _basic_ concepts,
and just enough familiarity with numbers of, ooh, all of 2 (count'em:
two!) digits, to work out sums to at least enough accuracy not to be
taken in by politicians' bluffs and advertisers' lies. But that,
apparently, is infra dig for an alpha-educated moron.

Richard

Richard Bos

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Aug 5, 2014, 9:17:46 AM8/5/14
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fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) wrote:

What irks me the most, I think, is that they not only just don't care,
many of them are even _proud_ of not understanding basic maths.

If I came out and announced that I was proud of not knowing the
difference between they're, their and there, I'd be scorned, and rightly
so. But somehow it is socially not just acceptable, but _admirable_ to
be too dumb to multiply six by seven. This will never cease to amaze me,
and it will never cease to earn _my_ scorn.

Richard

Mark Huizer

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Aug 5, 2014, 10:22:05 AM8/5/14
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The wise David Scheidt enlightened me with:
> Maarten Wiltink <maa...@kittensandcats.net> wrote:
>:"David Scheidt" <dsch...@panix.com> wrote in message
>:news:lroeop$e8p$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>:> I got taught how to <take cube roots> it in the 7th or 8th grade
>:> (age 13 or so). I forget how to do it, exactly, but I'm sure I can
>:> work it out. Tedious is right, I remember that much. (And I had to
>:> do it as an exercise in some CS class, and used a lookup table, which
>:> tells me tedious is right...)
>
>:That's odd. Because computers don't get bored. They'll happily make
>:rectangular blocks that look more and more like cubes for milliseconds
>:on end.
>
> I'm pretty sure some of our servers get bored, and refuse to work,
> until they're given adequte attention and ear scratching.
> Nevertheless, a solution that uses a lookup table for part of the
> answer is a pretty good sign that working the answer out by hand or by
> paw would be tedious.

He... tedious doesn't exist! :) I've been geocaching, and had to find
the crosspoint of lines between 4 points. My GPS either wasn't capable
of doing that graphically (create route, walk to crosspoint, ignore the
20m of inaccuracy, get over it), so I took a log, a pen and a piece of
paper, converted to Dutch Grid, and simply started on a set of
equations. If the weather is good, the forest is nice and time is on
your side, tedious doesn't exist. Not even if squirrels mistake your
feet for a tree and start tripping over them without noticing you

Mark

Mark Huizer

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Aug 5, 2014, 10:24:41 AM8/5/14
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The wise Richard Bos enlightened me with:

> That's all I ask for. A _basic_ understanding of the _basic_ concepts,
> and just enough familiarity with numbers of, ooh, all of 2 (count'em:
> two!) digits, to work out sums to at least enough accuracy not to be
> taken in by politicians' bluffs and advertisers' lies. But that,
> apparently, is infra dig for an alpha-educated moron.

Oh... can we insert a basic understanding of pi as well? 3 is good
enough as far as I'm concerned, but a basic understanding of calculating
areas won't be bothered by that .14etc stuff

Mark
Message has been deleted

Joe Zeff

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Aug 5, 2014, 3:24:30 PM8/5/14
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On Tue, 05 Aug 2014 17:56:55 +0000, Gary Barnes wrote:

> And bring back dog licences.
>
> Having Border Collies, I'd only need a black-and-white licence.
>
> Uh, yes, thanks, it's the MTP combat jacket with the "Dog Handler"
> patch.

Just yesterday, I was outside talking to a neighbor and letting her dog
sniff the cat hair on my pants. Suddenly, it looked up and started
yapping. I looked up, and saw a dog wandering around, off-leash. When I
commented about that, my neighbor told me that it wasn't a stray; it was
a young coyote. I've seen them around before, of course, but never in
broad daylight like that.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
Never Underestimate The Bandwidth Of A Bunch Of Programmers Running Away
Screaming.

Richard Bos

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Aug 6, 2014, 6:14:40 AM8/6/14
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Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 17:40:22 +0200, Maarten Wiltink
> : "Joe Zeff" <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote in message

> : > One of the reasons that we have the type of people running the
> : > country that we do is the fact that you don't have to *be* a
> : > responsible citizen in order to vote.
> :
> : I have a great idea. Let's introduce that.
> :
> : And an exam for prospective parents.
>
> And bring back dog licences.

We still have them.

Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
owner.

Richard

Cipher

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Aug 6, 2014, 8:14:12 AM8/6/14
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On 8/6/2014 6:14 AM, Richard Bos wrote:

>> : And an exam for prospective parents.
>>
>> And bring back dog licences.
>
> We still have them.
>
> Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
> their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
> owner.

Except then animal control will have to catch the cats without tags.
Have you ever tried to catch a cat?

--
The word "urgent" is the moral of the story "The boy who cried wolf". As
a general rule I don't believe it until a manager comes to me almost in
tears. I like to catch them in a cup and drink them later.
-- Matt Holiab, in the Monastery

Julian Macassey

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Aug 6, 2014, 8:15:11 AM8/6/14
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:14:40 GMT, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 17:40:22 +0200, Maarten Wiltink
>>
>> And bring back dog licences.
>
> We still have them.
>
> Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
> their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
> owner.

Cats do most damage to mice and rats.

They don't bark and they don't chase cars.


--
The best defense against propaganda: more propaganda. - Edward Bernays
Message has been deleted

Mike A

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Aug 6, 2014, 9:34:42 AM8/6/14
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Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote in <slrnlu472f...@adeed.tele.com>:

> On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:14:40 GMT, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 17:40:22 +0200, Maarten Wiltink
>>>
>>> And bring back dog licences.
>>
>> We still have them.
>>
>> Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
>> their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
>> owner.
>
> Cats do most damage to mice and rats.
>
> They don't bark and they don't chase cars.

s/cats and dogs/birds/

--
You're only a virgin Linux user for a moment, and then you're fscked.
-- AdB, bofh.codefh

Peter Corlett

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Aug 6, 2014, 9:49:38 AM8/6/14
to
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
[...]
> (psst - it's been rather a long time since taking square root by hand was
> taught in public grade schools Over Here, as such. Just to depress you
> further, you know.)

Did they ever teach it outside of advanced maths classes? And if so, did
anybody pay attention, or was it so badly-taught that nobody learned how to do
it?

Whenever I've needed a square root outside of the artificial environment of
academentia -- which is almost never -- I will fire up some sort of calculator
if I need accuracy or just look at the first 2-3 digits and use dead reckoning.
I'm betting that's exactly what everbody else here would do. See also long
division, which I've never had a need for.

I could likely figure out a passable pen-and-paper algorithm from first
principles if I found myself in some backwards age where I had no access to
modern conveniences such as a calculator, and not even a slice rule or log
books, but curiously a requirement to calculate square roots exactly. However,
if I found myself transported back in time to 1973, I've got much bigger
problems.

Peter Corlett

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Aug 6, 2014, 9:53:44 AM8/6/14
to
Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> Except then animal control will have to catch the cats without tags.
> Have you ever tried to catch a cat?

Sure. Just rattle a tin opener from three rooms away.

Richard Bos

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Aug 6, 2014, 10:31:53 AM8/6/14
to
Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:14:40 GMT, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> > Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> And bring back dog licences.
> >
> > We still have them.
> >
> > Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
> > their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
> > owner.
>
> Cats do most damage to mice and rats.

No, they do most damage to songbirds.

Most cats don't have the guts to tackle a real rat. Mice, yes. How many
problems with mice do we have in our Western world? Outside farms?

Richard

Mike A

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Aug 6, 2014, 10:41:45 AM8/6/14
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Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote in <53e23c15...@news.xs4all.nl>:
We have mice in our garage attic, and only recently got rid of a mouse
infestation in the house. They will get in anywhere they can squeeze through.

--
I stopped and considered for a moment whether such a person would behave
any differently with his head cut right off, but then realized it would
make a difference: it would allow him to stand upright again.
-- Anthony de Boer

Peter Corlett

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Aug 6, 2014, 12:22:21 PM8/6/14
to
Richard Bos <rl...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
[...]
> Most cats don't have the guts to tackle a real rat. Mice, yes. How many
> problems with mice do we have in our Western world? Outside farms?

*waves from London*

They say you're never more than nine feet from a Banksy, but there's a bit of a
mouse problem. If you don't have mice, that usually means that they took one
look at the heaving masses of cockroaches and moved out.

Julian Macassey

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Aug 6, 2014, 2:50:35 PM8/6/14
to
You find rats and mice in restaurants, warehouses, homes
an doffices. Even Beverly Hills has a major rat problem.

My cat has taken rats and gophers let alone mice. Birds
have been no more than two, I know this because the feathers,
unlike rat tails, are hard to hide.

I heard of one cat that caught rabbits.



--
"She needs to stop doing drugs and get a grip. Then maybe we'll talk." -
Stevie Nicks about Lindsay Lohan, NY Times 2009

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 6, 2014, 2:06:55 PM8/6/14
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In <lrtbpi$l8a$1...@mooli.org.uk>, on 08/06/2014
at 01:49 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>Did they ever teach it outside of advanced maths classes?

Yes. AFAIK, they never taught extraction of square roots in an
advanced Mathematics class, only in K-12.

>Whenever I've needed a square root outside of the artificial
>environment of academentia -- which is almost never

Sadistics. Electricity.

However, I would not expect somebody to calculate square roots by hand
for a practical application, and see no reason to retain manual
extraction in the curriculum.

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 6, 2014, 2:01:19 PM8/6/14
to
In <53e1ffc...@news.xs4all.nl>, on 08/06/2014
at 10:14 AM, ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) said:

>Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous,

UL. Are you aware of any properly designed study that substantiates
the claim?

>and their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other
>kind of pet owner.

Nonsense; you want horror stories, look at dog owners. Or owners of
exotic animals.

Wojciech Derechowski

unread,
Aug 6, 2014, 10:43:04 PM8/6/14
to
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:50:35 +0000, Julian Macassey wrote:
>
> I heard of one cat that caught rabbits.
>

Of course, no need to send Mr Gilliam or use the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
(One! Two! Five!) I was always wondering why an african swallow, la vache and
a killer rabit, but no cat in any prominent role. The Grail has a fault of
some sort.

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

G. Paul Ziemba

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 12:22:00 AM8/7/14
to
Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> writes:

>Except then animal control will have to catch the cats without tags.
>Have you ever tried to catch a cat?

I actually witnessed this in my just-bought-but-unoccupied house
some years ago. Animal control person was amazingly effective,
modulo large amounts of cartoon-esque thumping, banging, and
scratching noises behind closed doors after a cat fell in through
the skylight and spent a night or two hiding out.

Unfortunately, I did not discover it until after it had left an
enormous turd and a large wet spot in the only two carpeted rooms
of the place.
--
G. Paul Ziemba
FreeBSD unix:
9:21PM up 7 days, 8:05, 8 users, load averages: 1.07, 1.04, 1.05

G. Paul Ziemba

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 12:29:17 AM8/7/14
to
Mike A <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> writes:

>Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote in <slrnlu472f...@adeed.tele.com>:

>> On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:14:40 GMT, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>> Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 17:40:22 +0200, Maarten Wiltink
>>>>
>>>> And bring back dog licences.
>>>
>>> We still have them.
>>>
>>> Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
>>> their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
>>> owner.
>>
>> Cats do most damage to mice and rats.
>>
>> They don't bark and they don't chase cars.

>s/cats and dogs/birds/

We have some very fine winged predators near sj.ca.us. I wish I could
train one (or a team of them) to hunt the plentiful venison and bring
it to me. (Although I wonder if some sort of FAA license would be needed)
--
G. Paul Ziemba
FreeBSD unix:
9:26PM up 7 days, 8:10, 8 users, load averages: 1.06, 1.02, 1.02

ppint. at pplay

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 12:34:00 AM8/7/14
to
- hi; ral...@xs4all.nl "Richard Bos" reiteraat:
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
>> ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) said:
>>>Yes, higher maths can be ball-breakingly hard. But arithmetic _is
>>>not_. And higher maths is something the vast majority of people
>>>will never even have seen, not even in high school. Group theory,
>>>higher-dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions,
>>>yes, you're allowed to be daunted by those.
>>Actually, those are mostly undergraduate subjects.
>
>Yes, which is why I'll allow a journo, lit critter or politician, who
>hasn't done maths beyond high school level, to be daunted by them.

- you're not going soft on us in your old age are you, richard?

>But not counting on your fingers. No, not even if they need their toes
>as well.

- youm should be able to count up to 1,024 on the fingers of your
two hands - higher, if from dorset/east fries/groningen/norfolk.
(higher than that is more difficult for the web-footed)

- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"Incipient Doldrums."
- roger thomas, 19/3/97 (3/19/97 for merkins)

Rik

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 1:37:12 AM8/7/14
to
Julian Macassey wrote on Wed 6 August 2014 20:50 :

> I heard of one cat that caught rabbits.

http://rsteenw.home.xs4all.nl/pics/mjam.jpg

--
Verdomd interessant, maar gaat u verder.

Peter Corlett

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 6:05:20 AM8/7/14
to
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> at 01:49 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:
>> Did they ever teach it outside of advanced maths classes?
> Yes. AFAIK, they never taught extraction of square roots in an advanced
> Mathematics class, only in K-12.

You say "K-12" like I had the foggiest what it meant until I asked Google.
Damned American cultural imperialism.

>> Whenever I've needed a square root outside of the artificial environment of
>> academentia -- which is almost never
> Sadistics. Electricity.

Both of which fall under "almost never". For statistics, one dumps it into
Excel and lets it deal with the details, and for electricity I only ever need
sqrt(2) which I don't need to calculate every time and can also be safely
approximated to 1.4.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Richard Bos

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 8:08:27 AM8/7/14
to
v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk ("ppint. at pplay") wrote:

> - hi; ral...@xs4all.nl "Richard Bos" reiteraat:
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) said:
> >>>Yes, higher maths can be ball-breakingly hard. But arithmetic _is
> >>>not_. And higher maths is something the vast majority of people
> >>>will never even have seen, not even in high school. Group theory,
> >>>higher-dimensional non-Euclidean geometry, algebra on functions,
> >>>yes, you're allowed to be daunted by those.
> >>Actually, those are mostly undergraduate subjects.
> >
> >Yes, which is why I'll allow a journo, lit critter or politician, who
> >hasn't done maths beyond high school level, to be daunted by them.
>
> - you're not going soft on us in your old age are you, richard?

I'm not old yet. Hell, I'm not even mature.

I will say that, contrary to what's usually claimed to be normal, as I
watch the world being f@&^cked up by politicians but mostly by big
business, as I get older I seem to be veering more and more to the left.
But whether that's soft I don't know.

Seriously, though, I don't expect a Monk to know all the ins and outs of
the construction of an easily readable newspaper article, or the deep,
underlying layers of the constitution (written or un-), but I do expect
him to grasp the essence. It's only reasonable to require the other side
to return the favour, but not to expect more of them than of us.

> >But not counting on your fingers. No, not even if they need their toes
> >as well.
>
> - youm should be able to count up to 1,024 on the fingers of your
> two hands - higher, if from dorset/east fries/groningen/norfolk.
> (higher than that is more difficult for the web-footed)

Waddle, waddle.

Richard
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
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Shmuel Metz

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 11:40:54 AM8/7/14
to
In <lrvj10$jfq$1...@mooli.org.uk>, on 08/07/2014
at 10:05 AM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>You say "K-12" like I had the foggiest what it meant

How is that different from saying "public school" when you mean a
private school?

"Two great peoples, divided by a common language" (WC)

Shmuel Metz

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 11:45:30 AM8/7/14
to
In <53e330e...@news.xs4all.nl>, on 08/07/2014
at 12:08 PM, ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) said:

>Seriously, though, I don't expect a Monk to know all the ins and
>outs of the construction of an easily readable newspaper article,

These days I don't expect it of a newspaper reporter or editor. What's
worse, I no longer expect correct grammar and spelling, much less
facts. And they complain about news coverage on the web.

Zebee Johnstone

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 6:28:59 PM8/7/14
to
In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Thu, 7 Aug 2014 13:05:06 +0000 (UTC)
Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> On 2014-08-07, Richard Bos wrote:
>>I will say that, contrary to what's usually claimed to be normal, as I
>>watch the world being f@&^cked up by politicians but mostly by big
>>business, as I get older I seem to be veering more and more to the left.
>>But whether that's soft I don't know.
>
> Yeah. Most people I know seem to be tending in this direction as they
> get older. I think the lack of a big Communist power to appeal to
> rebellious youth may make a difference here.

I dunno that Stalinist Russia was that left wing. Maoist China maybe
felt more so but I think the Rebellious Youth were just after
something that wasn't the current status quo and that said it was more
equal even if most people knew it wasn't.

I do know that the card carrying commos I knew were socialists and
while they talked about Russia as good, they mostly just didn't talk
about it.

Zebee

John F. Eldredge

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 7:51:04 PM8/7/14
to
I learned how to take a square root by hand in 9th grade. In 10th grade,
they started allowing the students to use calculators, and by now I don't
have the foggiest memory of how to take a square root by hand (not that I
find myself needing to take one very often).
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Julian Macassey

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 10:35:56 PM8/7/14
to
On 7 Aug 2014 23:51:04 GMT, John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>
> I learned how to take a square root by hand in 9th grade.

Here's a puzzle. Americans love their birthdays, even as
adults, their birthday is important, yet when they are school
children they seem to have no idea how old they are, they translate
age in years into some code called grade.

I wonder if someone visits them at some time and says "From
now on, your age is in years, not grades."


--
Cutting Libraries in a recession is like cutting hospitals in a
plague. - Eleanor Crumblehulme

Zebee Johnstone

unread,
Aug 7, 2014, 11:23:22 PM8/7/14
to
In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Fri, 8 Aug 2014 02:35:56 +0000 (UTC)
Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2014 23:51:04 GMT, John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>>
>> I learned how to take a square root by hand in 9th grade.
>
> Here's a puzzle. Americans love their birthdays, even as
> adults, their birthday is important, yet when they are school
> children they seem to have no idea how old they are, they translate
> age in years into some code called grade.
>
> I wonder if someone visits them at some time and says "From
> now on, your age is in years, not grades."

I do the same thing when it comes to schooling.

It's the easy way to remember well.. what you did at school.

If I want to say when I rode my first poddy calf (because they don't
let kids on the real bucking bulls) I'd have to do something like
"Umm... was after we got into quarter horses but before we moved up
to Pickering Brook for good so I'd have been umm.. 10."

But if I want to say when I learned to multiply 2 3 digit numbers in
my head I'd say "that was Mr Kidd, in grade 5"

Zebee

Steve VanDevender

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 12:38:14 AM8/8/14
to
ab...@leftmind.net (AdB) writes:

> ppint. at pplay posted thus:
>> - youm should be able to count up to 1,024 on the fingers of your
>> two hands - ...
>
> You'll find the count tops out at 1023 (0x3FF), actually.

Oh no. Not the 0-origin vs. 1-origin thread again.

--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://hexadecimal.uoregon.edu/
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8
Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns
Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes
Message has been deleted
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Richard Bos

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 7:27:29 AM8/8/14
to
Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

> On 2014-08-08, AdB wrote:
> >But taking a long time about it: Rock'n'roll is somebody's
> >great-grandfather strutting across a stage. Punk is a bunch of dead
> >white guys, though.
> >
> >(Jagger, Ramones)
>
> Punk had the grace to kill itself, yeah.

Punk was dead before it started. Bloody anti-music noise.

Richard
Message has been deleted

Erwan David

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 7:44:38 AM8/8/14
to
ral...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) disait le 08/08/14 que :
From the beginning Punk had no future.


--
Les simplifications c'est trop compliqu�
Message has been deleted

Mike A

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 10:28:14 AM8/8/14
to
AdB <ab...@leftmind.net> wrote in <6ugdbb-...@news.leftmind.net>:

> ppint. at pplay posted thus:
>> - youm should be able to count up to 1,024 on the fingers of your
>> two hands - ...
>
> You'll find the count tops out at 1023 (0x3FF), actually.

But 1024 distinct states, and I can count the states, so 1024.It's just
that the visual binary encoding of a particular state is off-by-one from
the number that state represents.

--
Once upon a time, I made the mistake of following my boss there while I
was fasting. "Do you have any soft drinks?" I asked. "We've got
Old Hooky", said the landlord, "that's only 3%..."
-- Simon Cozens

Garrett Wollman

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 11:54:19 AM8/8/14
to
In article <53e4b18...@news.xs4all.nl>,
Richard Bos <rl...@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>Punk was dead before it started. Bloody anti-music noise.

I heard a great interview with Stewart Copeland a few years ago. He
talked about how The Police started as a "fake punk band"; they saw
that the punks were quite successful without actually being able to
play their instruments, and figured they could do better, because they
knew how to play. It seems to have worked out for them (particularly
for Mr. Sumner, who gets most of the royalties, but Copeland sure
isn't hurting either).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Shmuel Metz

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 8:49:29 AM8/8/14
to
In <slrnlu8dsc...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/08/2014
at 02:35 AM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:

>Here's a puzzle.

No, a misunderstanding.

>Americans love their birthdays, even as adults, their birthday is
>important, yet when they are school children they seem to have
>no idea how old they are,

Nonsense.

>they translate age in years into some code called grade.

Not even close. They understand, far better than you, the difference
between age and grade. Both matter to them, in different contexts.

Dan Bissonnette

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 4:50:19 PM8/8/14
to
In article <ls1k8n$h8n$3...@thames.novusordo.net>,
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu says...

> > You'll find the count tops out at 1023 (0x3FF), actually.
>
> Oh no. Not the 0-origin vs. 1-origin thread again.

We need a new law. I note that Mike Godwin is still alive.



--
"You're having an internal argument with somebody named
DragonQueen42 - you're never going to win that argument."
- David Benioff, 'Game of Thrones' Producer

Alan J Rosenthal

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Aug 8, 2014, 5:16:52 PM8/8/14
to
Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> writes:
[mice]
>They can teleport, I swear.

Pretty much, yeah. I once saw a mouse running for a closed door, which had
approximately 0 mm clearance at the bottom. It went under the door without
trouble nor slackening of speed.

I hear that if the restriction is in _both_ dimensions they can't do it,
though.

Steve VanDevender

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 5:43:23 PM8/8/14
to
Mike A <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> writes:

> AdB <ab...@leftmind.net> wrote in <6ugdbb-...@news.leftmind.net>:
>
>> ppint. at pplay posted thus:
>>> - youm should be able to count up to 1,024 on the fingers of your
>>> two hands - ...
>>
>> You'll find the count tops out at 1023 (0x3FF), actually.
>
> But 1024 distinct states, and I can count the states, so 1024.It's just
> that the visual binary encoding of a particular state is off-by-one from
> the number that state represents.

Alternatively, treat the all-0s state as 1024, and all the other states
have the expected binary encoding.

John F. Eldredge

unread,
Aug 8, 2014, 7:02:05 PM8/8/14
to
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:49:29 -0400, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

> In <slrnlu8dsc...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/08/2014
> at 02:35 AM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:
>
>>Here's a puzzle.
>
> No, a misunderstanding.
>
>>Americans love their birthdays, even as adults, their birthday is
>>important, yet when they are school children they seem to have no idea
>>how old they are,
>
> Nonsense.
>
>>they translate age in years into some code called grade.
>
> Not even close. They understand, far better than you, the difference
> between age and grade. Both matter to them, in different contexts.

Exactly. I was describing the point in my education where the technique
of how to calculate a square root by hand was taught. American school
systems run from 1st grade (generally six-year-olds) to 12th grade
(generally seventeen-year-olds). Advanced placement can lead to skipping
a grade level, leading to a kid being younger than most of their
classmates; having to repeat a grade level due to not having learned
enough leads to a kid being older than most of their classmates.

Julian Macassey

unread,
Aug 9, 2014, 1:06:56 AM8/9/14
to
That's how most education systems work, some in class are
older, some are younger. So, looking back you can say "I learned
that when I was 16". You may do maff with 14 year olds, yet Engrish
with 16 year olds.

Plus "I first took drugs in 8th grade", would be I suppose
an indication of what class you were in with no indication of age.

Yes, someone has said to me that he took drugs in 8th grade.
As he was the only Merkin in the room, we had no idea how old he was
at the time.

I know i lost my virginity at 17. Of course in case anyone
noticed, most laws that would effect teens specify an age, not a
grade.



--
"She needs to stop doing drugs and get a grip. Then maybe we'll talk." -
Stevie Nicks about Lindsay Lohan, NY Times 2009

ppint. at pplay

unread,
Aug 9, 2014, 4:57:48 AM8/9/14
to
- hi; mi...@mikea.ath.cx "Mike A" accuwrote:
> AdB <ab...@leftmind.net> wrote in <6ugdbb-...@news.leftmind.net>:
>> ppint. at pplay posted thus:
>>> - youm should be able to count up to 1,024 on the fingers of your
>>> two hands - ...
>>
>>You'll find the count tops out at 1023 (0x3FF), actually.
>
>But 1024 distinct states, and I can count the states, so 1024.

- per-zackly.

>It's just that the visual binary encoding of a particular state
>is off-by-one from the number that state represents.

- not necessarily: all bar one may be spot-on; if i've run
out of digits, i may as well have none left up for the final
display, as all - the record of the information remains even
though the number has just overflowed the display space by 1.

- love, "but yes, that's a display option", ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"in a well-governed country, poverty is something to be ashamed of;
in a poorly-governed country, wealth is something to be ashamed of."
- attrib. confucius [ref. needed for quote]

Gary Barnes

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Aug 9, 2014, 10:02:16 AM8/9/14
to
On Thu, 7 Aug 2014 20:12:17 -0400, AdB
<ab...@leftmind.net> wrote:
: Bob Clements posted thus:
: >Yeah, I remember it well.
: >
: >Rock 'n' Roll was dying and Disco was starting.
:
: But taking a long time about it: Rock'n'roll is somebody's
: great-grandfather strutting across a stage. Punk is a bunch of dead
: white guys, though.

Or rotten butter salesmen.

Gaz
--
/\./\
( - - ) g...@adminspotting.org (Gary "Wolf" Barnes)
\ " /
~~~
Message has been deleted

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 9, 2014, 10:32:13 PM8/9/14
to
In <slrnlubb3f...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/09/2014
at 05:06 AM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:

>Yes, someone has said to me that he took drugs in 8th grade. As he
>was the only Merkin in the room, we had no idea how old he was at
>the time.

And had everyone in the the room been American you *still* would have
had no idea how old he was. Just as you could not have known his grade
had he given only his age.

>Of course in case anyone noticed, most laws that would effect
>teens specify an age, not a grade.

Just as most curricula specify grade rather than age. SFW?

The fact that you want one of two data and get the one you don't want
just means that you failed to ask the right question.

Julian Macassey

unread,
Aug 11, 2014, 6:24:06 PM8/11/14
to
On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 22:32:13 -0400, Shmuel Metz
<spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> In <slrnlubb3f...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/09/2014
> at 05:06 AM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:
>
>>Yes, someone has said to me that he took drugs in 8th grade. As he
>>was the only Merkin in the room, we had no idea how old he was at
>>the time.
>
> And had everyone in the the room been American you *still* would have
> had no idea how old he was. Just as you could not have known his grade
> had he given only his age.
>
>>Of course in case anyone noticed, most laws that would effect
>>teens specify an age, not a grade.
>
> Just as most curricula specify grade rather than age. SFW?
>
> The fact that you want one of two data and get the one you don't want
> just means that you failed to ask the right question.

I have asked the right question - More than once.

I get this:

Q "How old were you then?"

A. "I was in second grade."

or

A. "I was in fith grade."

Q. "I asked how old you were old were."

A. (puzzled look) "Oh I was X years old."

As I noted, the "grade" is used in place of age in their
minds. It seems to be a peculularly Merkin thing.

Ivan D. Reid

unread,
Aug 11, 2014, 7:12:07 PM8/11/14
to
[Returning after a long absence]
On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 14:31:53 GMT, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl>
wrote in <53e23c15...@news.xs4all.nl>:
> Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:

>> On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:14:40 GMT, Richard Bos <ral...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> > Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:

>> >> And bring back dog licences.

>> > We still have them.

>> > Bring in _cat_ licenses, I say. The damage they do is horrendous, and
>> > their owners are typically more irresponsible than any other kind of pet
>> > owner.

>> Cats do most damage to mice and rats.

> No, they do most damage to songbirds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11021590/Oxford-scientist-warns-of-drastic-action-if-neighbours-allow-cats-to-roam-and-kill-birds.html
[Shades of Adny Woodwrad, eh Gary?]

> Most cats don't have the guts to tackle a real rat. Mice, yes. How many
> problems with mice do we have in our Western world? Outside farms?

Had real problems with field-mice getting into the house in the
terribly-wet autumn followed by a prolonged winter freeze two years ago.
Turned out I was breaking the law by trapping them in a "humane" trap and
releasing them a few hundred metres away down Manor Farm road -- it's
illegal here to release vermin into the wild!

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

David Scheidt

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Aug 11, 2014, 10:14:46 PM8/11/14
to
Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:
:On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 22:32:13 -0400, Shmuel Metz
If you asked me "how old were you when you were taught to take square
roots by hand?", I would almost certainly answer "the seventh grade".
That's because you're asking about something that happened at school,
I can think about who the teacher was, and know the answer. I do not
actually know who old I was -- my birthday is pretty much smack in the
middle of the school year, so in the seventh grade I was 12 then 13 --
and have no idea when in the school year it was taught. My seventh
grade math class had all sorts of random things taught in it, because
the teacher could actually teach, and would insert random things into
lesson plans because she thought she should, or it came out that we'd
never been taught how to check for divisibility by 11 in our heads,
and she'd spend the rest of the class teaching that.

If you asked me "How old were you when you started drinking beer?", I
wouldn't say "Oh, the tenth grade.", because it's not a school question,
even though I know that based on who I was hanging around with.

I'd be surprised if that's a particually amercian thing.



--
sig 122

ppint. at pplay

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Aug 11, 2014, 10:27:55 PM8/11/14
to
- hi; ab...@leftmind.net "AdB" protestentated:
> Steve VanDevender posted thus:
>>Alternatively, treat the all-0s state as 1024, and all the other states
>>have the expected binary encoding.
>
>But zero is a _useful_ number!

- *and* its use is no longer forbidden by the vatican, too!

- love, al-gebraically as well as al-zyphyrically, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
Message has been deleted

Maarten Wiltink

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Aug 12, 2014, 3:03:48 PM8/12/14
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"Julian Macassey" <jul...@tele.com> wrote in message
news:slrnluigk6...@adeed.tele.com...
[...]
> As I noted, the "grade" is used in place of age in their
> minds. It seems to be a peculularly Merkin thing.

No, it happens here too. And I don't find it baffling at all.
Age as such doesn't matter much. It's what you're doing with
your life at the time that matters. In whose class you're doing
it, because unlike your age that's in front of you every day.

I remember my fourth grade teacher[0], not my age at the time -
although it must have been nine for most of the year.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[0] He played guitar and gave a concert at school with his
band, wearing sunglasses inside and being cool and hilarious
at the same time.


Erwan David

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Aug 12, 2014, 4:12:03 PM8/12/14
to
"Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> disait le 08/12/14 que :

> "Julian Macassey" <jul...@tele.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnluigk6...@adeed.tele.com...
> [...]
>> As I noted, the "grade" is used in place of age in their
>> minds. It seems to be a peculularly Merkin thing.
>
> No, it happens here too. And I don't find it baffling at all.
> Age as such doesn't matter much. It's what you're doing with
> your life at the time that matters. In whose class you're doing
> it, because unlike your age that's in front of you every day.
>
> I remember my fourth grade teacher[0], not my age at the time -
> although it must have been nine for most of the year.
>

But imagine how hard it is for people who at 9 were in CE2 (formerly
9th, because french count downwards each year)

Garrett Wollman

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Aug 12, 2014, 5:11:29 PM8/12/14
to
In article <53ea6545$0$2971$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl>,
Maarten Wiltink <usene...@mfw.dds.nl> wrote:

>I remember my fourth grade teacher[0], not my age at the time -
>although it must have been nine for most of the year.

I always have to work it out: first figure out what year I was in that
grade, and then what age I was that year. Having a December birthday
doesn't help.

I know I was class of '89, so I count backwards (or forward) from
there.

Joe Zeff

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Aug 12, 2014, 6:40:15 PM8/12/14
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 21:11:29 +0000, Garrett Wollman wrote:

> I always have to work it out: first figure out what year I was in that
> grade, and then what age I was that year. Having a December birthday
> doesn't help.

OTOH, It's very easy for me because my birthday is mid-September. In
fact, I started Kindergarten on my fifth birthday.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
When you have a Leatherman, everything looks
Leathermanipulable.

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 12, 2014, 4:47:56 PM8/12/14
to
In <slrnluigk6...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/11/2014
at 10:24 PM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:

> I have asked the right question - More than once.

> I get this:

>Q "How old were you then?"

>A. "I was in second grade."

I was born here and spent most of my life hear, and have *never*
encountered anybody that had trouble distinguishing grade from age.
Where were your correspondents from?

Richard Heathfield

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Aug 13, 2014, 1:54:45 AM8/13/14
to
Joe Zeff wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 21:11:29 +0000, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
>> I always have to work it out: first figure out what year I was in that
>> grade, and then what age I was that year. Having a December birthday
>> doesn't help.
>
> OTOH, It's very easy for me because my birthday is mid-September. In
> fact, I started Kindergarten on my fifth birthday.

I started infant school a couple of months after my fourth birthday.

It wasn't long before I'd got the hang of spelling "September", but then
they changed it to "October". Cunning.

When I got back in the New Year after the Christmas break, I thought "Aha!
We start again! Back to September, then..."

But no, apparently not.

I swear they make this stuff difficult on purpose.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

G. Paul Ziemba

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Aug 13, 2014, 11:08:29 PM8/13/14
to
Richard Heathfield <inv...@see.sig.invalid> writes:

>When I got back in the New Year after the Christmas break, I thought "Aha!
>We start again! Back to September, then..."

>But no, apparently not.

>I swear they make this stuff difficult on purpose.

On the other hand, solutions seemed so much simpler then. When I was
that age (preschool (hah!)), the teacher chastised me for something or
other. So I drew her a picture with a declaration: "I am Superman!"


--
G. Paul Ziemba
FreeBSD unix:
8:11PM up 14 days, 6:55, 8 users, load averages: 0.98, 0.84, 0.77

TimC

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Aug 16, 2014, 8:45:30 AM8/16/14
to
On 2014-08-04, David Scheidt (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
>:I saw an old HS Algebra text that taught the extraction of cube roots.
>:However, it looked more tedious than daunting. Certainly less
>:challenging than, e.g., a rigorous class in Calculus or Euclidean
>:Geometry.
>
> I got taught how to do it in the 7th or 8th grade (age 13 or so).
> I forget how to do it, exactly, but I'm sure I can work it out.
> Tedious is right, I remember that much. (And I had to do it as an
> exercise in some CS class, and used a lookup table, which tells me
> tedious is right...)

My mum always hated maths. And by maths, she meant arithmetic. Don't
blame her. From what I remember of grade 2 (6 years old), I was the
slowest learner of the x12 multiplication lookup table. I wonder how
many of my classmates went on to do the interesting bits of
mathematics?

I just found out a couple of days ago there are a few more forms of
the Schrödinger equations than what I knew about. A nonlinear form
that's useful for solving rogue wave equations. You know - you can't
know the ship is floating or has sunk until they've issued a mayday
call.

--
Thus sprach TimC
The reason computer chips are so small is computers don't eat much.
-- fortune cookie

Julian Macassey

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Aug 16, 2014, 10:43:27 AM8/16/14
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 22:45:30 +1000, TimC
<tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
>
> My mum always hated maths. And by maths, she meant arithmetic. Don't
> blame her. From what I remember of grade 2 (6 years old), I was the
> slowest learner of the x12 multiplication lookup table. I wonder how
> many of my classmates went on to do the interesting bits of
> mathematics?

When I was about six, my mother was teaching me at home. I
recall sitting there in the dining room, tears streaming down my
cheeks as my mother went over and over the multiplicaion tables. It
was about four years later that the penny dropped and I realised
what they were about, not just random number I had to memorise.

Yes, 6 12s is 66 and that means if you have six dozen eggs
you have in your posession sixty six eggs. Now that is useful and
logical, mindlessly chanting "six twelves is sixty six", is rote
learning and that's like learning any random words - Boring and
useless.

Much learned prayer is like that, whether in Latin, Hebrew,
or your mother tongue.


--
"The incentives of the banks is still to cheat and do things that are
either illegal or immoral" - Nouriel Roubini, 7 July 2012

The Nomad

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Aug 16, 2014, 11:11:29 AM8/16/14
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 14:43:27 +0000, Julian Macassey wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 22:45:30 +1000, TimC
> <tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
>>
>> My mum always hated maths. And by maths, she meant arithmetic. Don't
>> blame her. From what I remember of grade 2 (6 years old), I was the
>> slowest learner of the x12 multiplication lookup table. I wonder how
>> many of my classmates went on to do the interesting bits of
>> mathematics?
>
> When I was about six, my mother was teaching me at home. I
> recall sitting there in the dining room, tears streaming down my cheeks
> as my mother went over and over the multiplicaion tables. It was about
> four years later that the penny dropped and I realised what they were
> about, not just random number I had to memorise.
>
> Yes, 6 12s is 66 and that means if you have six dozen eggs
> you have in your posession sixty six eggs. Now that is useful and
> logical, mindlessly chanting "six twelves is sixty six", is rote
> learning and that's like learning any random words - Boring and useless.
>
> Much learned prayer is like that, whether in Latin, Hebrew,
> or your mother tongue.

Ummm 72?


--
*Glingleglingleglingle.*
(Hogfather)
16:10:01 up 6 days, 4:17, 6 users, load average: 0.28, 0.30, 0.21

David Scheidt

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Aug 16, 2014, 11:42:46 AM8/16/14
to
Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:
:On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 22:45:30 +1000, TimC
:<tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
:>
:> My mum always hated maths. And by maths, she meant arithmetic. Don't
:> blame her. From what I remember of grade 2 (6 years old), I was the
:> slowest learner of the x12 multiplication lookup table. I wonder how
:> many of my classmates went on to do the interesting bits of
:> mathematics?

: When I was about six, my mother was teaching me at home. I
:recall sitting there in the dining room, tears streaming down my
:cheeks as my mother went over and over the multiplicaion tables. It
:was about four years later that the penny dropped and I realised
:what they were about, not just random number I had to memorise.

: Yes, 6 12s is 66 and that means if you have six dozen eggs
:you have in your posession sixty six eggs. Now that is useful and
:logical, mindlessly chanting "six twelves is sixty six", is rote
:learning and that's like learning any random words - Boring and
:useless.

Maybe you were memorizing random numbers.

--
sig 114

Julian Macassey

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Aug 16, 2014, 12:09:51 PM8/16/14
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 10:11:29 -0500, The Nomad <no...@the.desert.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 14:43:27 +0000, Julian Macassey wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, 6 12s is 66 and that means if you have six dozen eggs
>> you have in your posession sixty six eggs. Now that is useful and
>> logical, mindlessly chanting "six twelves is sixty six", is rote
>> learning and that's like learning any random words - Boring and useless.
> Ummm 72?

You are right. I will go back to sleep now.

What was I thinking.

I blame my mother.

Shmuel Metz

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Aug 18, 2014, 8:42:30 AM8/18/14
to
In <slrnluurgf...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/16/2014
at 02:43 PM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:

>Yes, 6 12s is 66

In what base? Certainly not in base ten.
Message has been deleted

BB

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Aug 18, 2014, 9:03:35 AM8/18/14
to
On 2014-08-18 12:42:30 +0000, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz said:

> In <slrnluurgf...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/16/2014
> at 02:43 PM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:
>
>> Yes, 6 12s is 66
>
> In what base? Certainly not in base ten.

Base not paying attention in Year 2

Maarten Wiltink

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Aug 18, 2014, 1:34:29 PM8/18/14
to
"BB" <zojw8...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2014081823033553500-zojw8kw6r1@gmailcom...
How much is that in grades[0]?

All your base are belong to Julian's mom.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[0] In the Netherlands, some time ago[1] preschool and primary
school were merged, and 'classes' 1-6 (old primary school,
6-12 years of age) were changed to 'groups' 3-8, preschool
becoming groups 1 and 2. There is no ambiguity, just nuisance
and occasion for oldfartery.

[1] 1985, so just yesterday.


Wojciech Derechowski

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Aug 18, 2014, 5:30:12 PM8/18/14
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:45:37 +0000, Roger Bell_West wrote:
> On 2014-08-18, Shmuel Metz wrote:
>>In <slrnluurgf...@adeed.tele.com>, on 08/16/2014
>> at 02:43 PM, Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> said:
>>>Yes, 6 12s is 66
>>In what base? Certainly not in base ten.
>
> Not in any base.
>
> Using base 10 notation, in base b:
>
> 6 * (b+2) = 6*b + 6
> 6b+12 = 6b+6
> 12=6

But the proof that 12!=6 is left as an exercise for the reader.

--
WD

Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

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