Speaking of vehicle electronics lusage

[Garrett Wollman]

I recently made the mistake of paying good money for a map update for
my Honda's built-in navigation system. It finally arrived today (from
HERE, part of the company formerly known as Nokia). Quoting from the
instructions:

* Do not drive your vehicle at any time during the set-up period.

* The map update set-up time is approximately 60 minutes. DO NOT turn
off the engine during the set-up period.

So let me get this straight: to update the maps in the navigation
system, I have to sit in my parked car for an hour? (I can't leave
the car -- it has keyless ignition, so if I go too far away it will
eventually shut itself off.)

It gets better: as a part of installing the update, I have to reenter
the car's "security code", and then enter a 16-digit number which is
found only on the packing slip that came in the envelope with the
update disc.

It then takes another five hours for the update process to actually
complete. (Apparently the first hour is just copying files off the
DVD onto the hard drive, and rebooting several times.)

I *was* perfectly happy with using my phone for navigation, but when I
bought this car the only one available was a top-shelf trim with
navigation and all the other bells and whistles. Oops.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:28:39 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
> I recently made the mistake of paying good money for a map update for
> my Honda's built-in navigation system. It finally arrived today (from
> HERE, part of the company formerly known as Nokia). Quoting from the
> instructions:
>
> * Do not drive your vehicle at any time during the set-up period.
>
> * The map update set-up time is approximately 60 minutes. DO NOT turn
> off the engine during the set-up period.
>
> So let me get this straight: to update the maps in the navigation
> system, I have to sit in my parked car for an hour? (I can't leave
> the car -- it has keyless ignition, so if I go too far away it will
> eventually shut itself off.)

Qbhoyr-purpx jvgu qrnyre. *HFHNYYL* gung erdhverzrag vf fbyryl gb rafher
gung gur tvmzb orvat hcqngr NYJNLF unf ninvynoyr cbjre. Juvpu pna nyfb
or nppbzcyvfurq ol fgvpxvat lbhe onggrel-znvagnvare (lbh qb unir n
onggrel znvagnvare? Vg'f yvxr onpxhcf sbe onggrevrf) ba gur guvat,
rafhevat vg'f .. re.. znvagnvavat, naq tbvat nurnq sebz gurer.

--
61. If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad
scheme?", I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies
them. --Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2015-07-22, Peter H. Coffin <hel...@ninehells.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:28:39 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> So let me get this straight: to update the maps in the navigation
>> system, I have to sit in my parked car for an hour? (I can't leave
>> the car -- it has keyless ignition, so if I go too far away it will
>> eventually shut itself off.)
>
> Qbhoyr-purpx jvgu qrnyre. *HFHNYYL* gung erdhverzrag vf fbyryl gb rafher
> gung gur tvmzb orvat hcqngr NYJNLF unf ninvynoyr cbjre.

Juvpu zvffrf gur cbvag: jubzrire vg jnf gung qrfvtarq gur hcqngr
flfgrz, naq nfxrq gung crbcyr qb guvf, pbzcyrgryl naq hggreyl fperjrq
hc. Vg fubhyq abg or arprffnel gung na vaqvivqhny fvg va n iruvpyr sbe
na ubhe, be purpx jvgu gurve qrnyre nobhg gung fcrpvsvp erdhverzrag.
Vs cbjre vf n pbaprea, gur hcqngr fubhyq fnl fbzrguvat nybat gur yvarf
bs, "Guvf hcqngr vf abg raq hfre vafgnyynoyr. Cyrnfr gnxr guvf hcqngr
qvfp naq lbhe pne gb lbhe ybpny qrnyre sbe n qnl gb unir gur hcqngr
vafgnyyrq. Vs guvf vf abg na bcgvba, cyrnfr pbagnpg lbhe ybpny qrnyre
gb qvfphff nygreangvirf."

Tvira gung vg fubhyq gnxr ab zber guna svir gb gra zvahgrf gb pbaarpg
gur rkgreany cbjre fbhepr naq fgneg gur vafgnyy - naq gung gur
vafgnyyngvba fubhyq or noyr gb eha jvgubhg raq hfre vagreiragvba -
guvf fubhyq or n jbexnoyr bcgvba.

Truth be told, I'm guessing that they just slapped a system that was
originally designed for a lower specced car into the high end car,
without considering all the long term ramifications. Systems these
days in general are just getting Too Damn Complicated for their Own
Good.
option, please speak with your local dealer

[Peter H. Coffin]

On 22 Jul 2015 11:40:02 GMT, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:

> Truth be told, I'm guessing that they just slapped a system that was
> originally designed for a lower specced car into the high end car,
> without considering all the long term ramifications. Systems these
> days in general are just getting Too Damn Complicated for their Own
> Good. option, please speak with your local dealer

I strongly suspect that the "speak with your local dealer" is where
all of this started, and the user installation part came after. There
ARE shop scan tools that do a block-flash right off the dealership's
network, and those have been around for 15 years. Only dealers can buy
them, and they need an expensive dealer service login for the downloads.
Then, as more vehicles were sold, and lower models were brought out
with the feature, there was more need to provide a way for third
parties to do this work, so the USB method (which was only for storing
owner-specific stuff not to be lost like routes and waypoints, but
HAPPENED to copy anything on the drive when it restored) was introduced,
then the shade-tree mechanics and high school boy racers yammered for a
way that they could do it without 13.5V power supplies, so this "run the
engine" thing came out as a compromise.

And that it went from high to low models because the high-end models are
the ones that can afford the time for the car to go to the dealer for an
expensive upgrade with an accompanying "easy for dealer, hard for anyone
else" update model. It's all compromises for the lower-end and home
maintenance ends of the market, and the stupidities are dealing with
"how do we make this happen safely and without corruption, when we don't
have a 13.5V shop power connection and a CAN-SCAN 6000 available?"

--
"25 grams of wafers and 20 ml of wine undergo transubstantiation and
become the flesh and blood of our Lord. How many Joules of heat are
released by the transformation?" --Theological Physics exam, 1997

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:52:31 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West wrote:

> On 2015-07-22, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:
>
>>Truth be told, I'm guessing that they just slapped a system that was
>>originally designed for a lower specced car into the high end car,
>>without considering all the long term ramifications. Systems these
>>days in general are just getting Too Damn Complicated for their Own
>>Good.
>

> Seems to me there's little justification for an update taking that
> long anyway. Wonder how much of the delay is caused by the DRM.

My guess is the delay is uncompressing map data from what fits on a DVD
to the main storage on a device that's designed to work RELIABLY while
air-cooled without a fan in temperatures from -40 to 60C. That is, not a
general purpose machine.

--
2. My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Peter H. Coffin <hel...@ninehells.com> said:
>My guess is the delay is uncompressing map data from what fits on a DVD
>to the main storage on a device that's designed to work RELIABLY while
>air-cooled without a fan in temperatures from -40 to 60C. That is, not a
>general purpose machine.

It is just a hard drive. Ripping a CD to it doesn't take that long;
rather than a CD changer, Honda/Acura cars with navigation rip CDs to
the hard drive automatically (and play from the rip). Part of the
annual "map update" is also an updated copy of the Gracenote CD
database, so that you get album info on the screen.

I'd have to guess that the hours-long process might be because they use
the same data files on the DVD for all the Honda/Acura cars, which are
probably running quite different versions of the mapping software, and
the load time includes format conversion and indexing. Indexing
gigabytes of map data could take a while.

--
Chris Adams <cma...@cmadams.net>

[Chloe]

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:28:39 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman

<wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
> I recently made the mistake of paying good money for a map update for
> my Honda's built-in navigation system. It finally arrived today (from
> HERE, part of the company formerly known as Nokia). Quoting from the
> instructions:
>

Wow, makes me glad the car I have with internal nav is older..
Upgrade for mine: open door and put key in ignition.
Turn to position 2.
Open boot, open side panel. Eject DVD, insert new DVD.
Sit in drivers seat while warning appears not to drive the car.
Wait 5 minutes.
Drive car.

Chloe

[Ino]

One better:

Download map update to generic SD card.
Replace old SD card with new SD card.
Drive car!

Don't like your update?! Sure - swap the cards!
Regression fixed!


Ino

--
I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire
off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time,
like tears in rain. Time to die.

[Marc Haber]

Ino <chi...@wziejxwoa.jap> wrote:
>On 2015-07-22, Chloe <Ch...@Meteor.igloo.snowfields.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:28:39 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman
>><wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
>>> I recently made the mistake of paying good money for a map update for
>>> my Honda's built-in navigation system. It finally arrived today (from
>>> HERE, part of the company formerly known as Nokia). Quoting from the
>>> instructions:
>>>
>>
>> Wow, makes me glad the car I have with internal nav is older..
>> Upgrade for mine: open door and put key in ignition.
>> Turn to position 2.
>> Open boot, open side panel. Eject DVD, insert new DVD.
>> Sit in drivers seat while warning appears not to drive the car.
>> Wait 5 minutes.
>> Drive car.
>
>One better:
>
>Download map update to generic SD card.
>Replace old SD card with new SD card.
>Drive car!
>
>Don't like your update?! Sure - swap the cards!
>Regression fixed!

That would be acceptable for us, but not acceptable for a muggle.

Greetings
Marc
--
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

[Chloe]

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 22:00:20 +0000 (UTC),
Ino <chi...@wziejxwoa.jap> wrote:
> On 2015-07-22, Chloe <Ch...@Meteor.igloo.snowfields.net> wrote:
>> Wow, makes me glad the car I have with internal nav is older..
>> Upgrade for mine: open door and put key in ignition.
>> Turn to position 2.
>> Open boot, open side panel. Eject DVD, insert new DVD.
>> Sit in drivers seat while warning appears not to drive the car.
>> Wait 5 minutes.
>> Drive car.
>
> One better:
>
> Download map update to generic SD card.
> Replace old SD card with new SD card.
> Drive car!
>
> Don't like your update?! Sure - swap the cards!
> Regression fixed!
>

My car is too old for such modern ideas.
Even an aux audio input is a bolt on (£600!) afterthought.

Chloe

[Ino]

Mine was built old. Even through I bought it new[1] in 2009, the
LC 76 series is about as spartan as they come. Aircon? Yea, that's
optional. ABS? Nope! Airbags? Hell no! Gearbox? Manual - and you
will like it![2]

You want modern? Sure: here's your OBD2 port, electric windows and
remote locking - that's enough! Count your lucky stars you don't
have candles in your headlights.

Radio? well, you see... it's this thing here, oh, look - if I take
it out there's a 2-DIN space which accomodates perfectly a multi-purpose
unit which behaves in predictable ways and does not want its pint of
blood every time maps need to be upgraded. Bonus: reversing camera!

Ino

[1] Yeah! Bought it new and whilst not regretting it at all, it will not
happen ever again!
[2] And as a matter of fact - I do! It does exactly what I tell it to do,
not what it might think I might have wanted - about 3 seconds ago.

[David Gersic]

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:28:39 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:

> I recently made the mistake of paying good money for a map update for
> my Honda's built-in navigation system. It finally arrived today (from
> HERE, part of the company formerly known as Nokia). Quoting from the
> instructions:
>
> * Do not drive your vehicle at any time during the set-up period.
>
> * The map update set-up time is approximately 60 minutes. DO NOT turn
> off the engine during the set-up period.
>
> So let me get this straight: to update the maps in the navigation
> system, I have to sit in my parked car for an hour? (I can't leave
> the car -- it has keyless ignition, so if I go too far away it will
> eventually shut itself off.)

You have to sit, in a parked car, with the engine running, for an hour
while this thing sets itself up?

Paper maps and carbeurators are sounding better and better to me.

[Chloe]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:40:21 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West
<roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> On 2015-07-22, Chloe wrote:
>>Upgrade for mine:
>
> Eject old CD.
> Insert new CD.
> Wait for "copy protection" to calm down, usually 10-20 seconds.
>
> Given that one CD covers approximately one country, this is quite
> handy. Though they aren't producing them any more.
>

Mine had to install the new firmware into the headunit from the boot mounted
drive, which is what took the time. If I wanted to use the 2008 DVD the car
had when I brought it, it would be the same.

My car does manage to cover all of europe on the disc, the last one was 2012
though. Weirdly, it was cheaper to buy it from a dealer then from the maker
of the maps, by about £40.

I only use it for cities and distance remaining normally. I tend to use the
"aim in the right direction" of long distance driving.
The gyro/wheel inputs does make it look a little silly when in a multistory
carpark, as the map rotates with each floor!

Chloe

[Alexander Schreiber]

Or just do what I did and keep your car and your navigation system as
separate things. When I got the new car a while ago, a made sure it was
one _without_ the navigation system, for several reasons[0]. The duty of
navigation fell to my old Garmin, which eventually died, so I now use
GbzGbz on Naqebvq, which works just fine. And has the advantage that
any map or other updates can be done at whatever time is convenient,
without having to babysit it.

Kind regards,
Alex.
[0] There is only one screen in the car shared by navigation, entertainment
(i.e. radio & MP3 player) and other stuff. Having to constantly fight
with SWMBO for the use of that screen[1] does not make for fun driving.
Also, I don't expect that map data to be a) any good or b) current.
And if the UI sucks badly (pretty much a given on in-car systems), I'm
stuck with it. A not-part-of-the-car navigation system is reasonably
cheap and easy to replace if found to suck.
[1] Because SWMBO is changing the music while want to keep an eye on where
the heck I'm supposed to be going.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

[David Scheidt]

Roger Bell_West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

:Real maps have north at the top.

Only when you turn them that way.

:(When the screen has something like 1.8:1 aspect ratio,
:driving-direction-up makes particularly little sense.)

That, of course, is a different problem. Track up is the correct
orrientation for a plot of your current location and track on a
screen.

--
sig 90

[Chloe]

> Real maps have north at the top.
>

> (When the screen has something like 1.8:1 aspect ratio,
> driving-direction-up makes particularly little sense.)

I can't remember what size the screen in the xtype is, but you can have
north at the top, but as the location of the car is not in the middle,
having it rotate means you get a larger "this is what is ahead" view then
when it is in the fixed north mode.

My newer car doesn't have internal nav, so I'll use one of my phones if I
feel it's worth the hassle to connect it up. Traffic avoidance/etc, I often
just do in my head as it's often more reliable then the nav.

Chloe

[Firesong]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:22:40 +0000 (UTC), Roger Bell_West
<roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

>On 2015-07-23, Chloe wrote:
>>The gyro/wheel inputs does make it look a little silly when in a multistory
>>carpark, as the map rotates with each floor!
>

>Real maps have north at the top.
>
>(When the screen has something like 1.8:1 aspect ratio,
>driving-direction-up makes particularly little sense.)

Some people, (not me) have so little ability to process images, they
cannot determine whether that's a right or left turn ahead, unless it
is the 'right way up'. Aspect ratio be damned.

Iain

[alt]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 16:43:42 +0200, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> wrote:

>>
>> Paper maps and carbeurators are sounding better and better to me.
>
> Or just do what I did and keep your car and your navigation system as
> separate things. When I got the new car a while ago, a made sure it was
> one _without_ the navigation system, for several reasons[0]. The duty of
> navigation fell to my old Garmin, which eventually died, so I now use
> GbzGbz on Naqebvq, which works just fine. And has the advantage that any
> map or other updates can be done at whatever time is convenient, without
> having to babysit it.

I have a Zntryyna Ebnqzngr I use in my 1997 pickup. The update procedure
is simply "remove from truck. plug into computer. run software." Sure, it
takes time, but it's time I'm doing something more important: Drinking.

I've determined that any vehicle I purchase from now on can have an
engine management computer, but everything else should be stupid. No
canbus windows. No canbus car stereo integrated with environmental
controls. None of that.

Maybe I'm just dreaming.

[Mans Nilsson]

Den 2015-08-31 skrev alt <kaith...@lazymail.ca>:

> I have a Zntryyna Ebnqzngr I use in my 1997 pickup. The update procedure
> is simply "remove from truck. plug into computer. run software." Sure, it
> takes time, but it's time I'm doing something more important: Drinking.

I run a tablet computer with offline navigation software based on OSM.
Updates OTA, but best done at home. My favourite drink lately has
become the pink gin, in which no component is less than 40% abv --
I keep the gin in the freezer so I do not have to dilute with ice to
lower the temperature.

> I've determined that any vehicle I purchase from now on can have an
> engine management computer, but everything else should be stupid. No
> canbus windows. No canbus car stereo integrated with environmental
> controls. None of that.
>
> Maybe I'm just dreaming.

Yes. I drive a 15 yo car, and it has all of that. Everything canbus,
complete with anti-theft start-blocking communication over said canbus. If
a cable gets pinched, the car won't start. The shop (unfortunately you
must haul the car to a certified dealer to do this ) first suggested
"swap tah computah" which, while expensive, would not have fixed the
problem, then thought the better of it and actually engaged brain use
mode. Said pinched cable was found, fixed, and the parts sheet went all
the way to SEK 90, instead of the projected SEK 13000.

It is just electronics. Of course proprietary in the worst possible
security-by-obscurity way, but still only electronics.

--
Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina
MN-1334-RIPE +46 705 989668
Well, I'm a classic ANAL RETENTIVE!! And I'm looking for a way to
VICARIOUSLY experience some reason to LIVE!!

[Ino]

On 2015-09-08, Mans Nilsson <mans...@besserwisser.org> wrote:
>
> Yes. I drive a 15 yo car, and it has all of that. Everything canbus,
> complete with anti-theft start-blocking communication over said canbus. If
> a cable gets pinched, the car won't start. The shop (unfortunately you
> must haul the car to a certified dealer to do this ) first suggested
> "swap tah computah" which, while expensive, would not have fixed the
> problem, then thought the better of it and actually engaged brain use
> mode. Said pinched cable was found, fixed, and the parts sheet went all
> the way to SEK 90, instead of the projected SEK 13000.

Oh, I know that one - it's called: "Eh, well, it's fucked anyway, I can't
possibly fuck it any more than this, so might as well take it apart. Nurse,
Philips head screwdriver!"

Many good discoveries happen when you've got nothing to lose.

>
> It is just electronics. Of course proprietary in the worst possible
> security-by-obscurity way, but still only electronics.

I think we should count ourselves lucky none of those tossers thought
about lusing a HDMI-like handshake. YET!


Ino