14yr old girl, 19yr old boyfriend
Daniel
if this is somewhat long, but allot is going on.
This past September I had to take guardianship of my 14 yr. old sister (I'm
24 now, 9yrs 2months older) after a police raid (responded to her domestic
violence call for the boyfriend abusing our mother & found allot of drugs).
Either I took her or DHS would (having grown up in that one myself, I didn't
want that to happen to her). We've only met up in 1998, then didn't really
see each other until end of 2000, & didn't spend allot of time together
until mid 2002, followed by her staying with a friend & myself in summer
2003 (before the 9-2003 raid). She hardly talks to her mom (who chose to
live with her boyfriend rather than try to get her back) & her father only
shows up around holidays to pay her, say he's sorry for not being around,
make more promises he has no intention of keeping, then leave until next
time. There is no other family other than 1 of our other 2 sisters that she
talks to.
Everything was fine at first & we moved into a mobile home I'd bought in
October 2003. In early January, she started seeing a 19.5yr old boy & soon
classified themselves as "dating". Since then her grades have went down (A &
B to few Cs & an F on a recent progress report, due to missing a test from
skipping school to be with him), she's been going behind my back on anything
related to him. They're kissing, not sure about sex yet, wouldn't surprise
me either way though, he even pierced her upper ear, something she knew I &
her mom were OK with IF SHE GOT IT DONE PROFESSIONALLY, now possible talk of
a tattoo though may not be in a place I'd have non-spying reason to see. He
used to spend allot of time over here until I caught her laying on top of
him & made the rule that she keep the bedroom door open, now if I'm gone
he's over, if I'm here she's gone (she claims its because he doesn't feel
welcome, but I noticed the change when I started enforcing the rule).
I've been logging her MS Instant Messenger chats, now installed a
key-logger, & want to do more. I know from this what has been going on (but
she's recently turned to phone only, hardly chat). In early February I had
evidence to show that he's supplied her with drugs (think only marijuana so
far, which she's already had), cigarettes, he has access to alcohol (his
father allows), & they talked about her giving him a lap dance, then
showering together for valentines day. I took this chat log to the police
(he's 19, she's 14), but they gave the usual "blow-off" response & said that
since they didn't come right out & say what was going on (used code words &
phrases, which though are obvious, I guess you need non-code for evidence) &
since she was pushing it, even though he was agreeing to it & suggesting it
sometimes, they said SHE had to file the report against him (even though I'm
her guardian). I couldn't even get a protective order against him. Also his
parents both know about her age & their relationship, but they don't care
(I've got chat log to show he controls them, tells them to back off about
it).
I'm going away this next week (spring break), she'll "be with friend",
though I've got more log to suggest otherwise. She's tried to convince me to
let her stay over at his place, claims his mom asked (was more likely forced
into being willing), & claims that she'll be on the couch (we all know
better).
I'm looking for hardware or software or other surveillance ideas. The only
way this will work (without causing her to go completely behind my back) is
if I can push this far enough to put him away, take some severe action
against his parents for allowing things to continue IN THEIR HOME (remember,
the cops say my chat logs aren't enough to press charges, I have to catch
them in the act & still may need evidence)...basically it's either
everything or nothing. (talking does not work, he's convinced her that I'm
just an over protective brother...most adults think otherwise & my problem
is that all adults she knows other than myself & my girlfriend support her &
what he's getting her into...so I've got ALLOT against me in this area).
--
There are 10 types of people in this world...
...those who understand binary & those who dont.
Tiffany
Daniel <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
news:RdKdncDXeLR...@giganews.com...
Wow....
That is commendable that you are taking care of your sister. I am going to
leave the issues about getting evidence against the boyfriend to others who
may have dealt with the police in something like this. I will suggest that
its likely even if you do get this boyfriend put away, there will just be
another one to fill his void. This 14 year old has many issues going on.
Abuse? Neglect? A father that doesn't care, ect. She is only 14 but it
sounds as though she has WAY to much freedom. Kids will do bad things if
they have to much free time. I image you are working, as most of us have to
do and that it makes it hard for you to be with her all the time. First, she
needs to be seeing someone professional. She is drinking, doing drugs and I
hate to say this, I would bet it all she is having sex. Second, get her
involved in some positive activities. Sports, community stuff, anything that
is around there. Third, I know we are need a break but you are leaving for
spring break when you know that she is going to go wild. You took the parent
role, its a full time job.
Tiffany
Lisa
"Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
news:RdKdncDXeLR...@giganews.com...
Holy crap. I have to wonder what's with this 19 yr old that he would be
interested in a 14 yr old girl?? Talk about a predator. I see that you
have tried a number of ways to confront this, without mention of the
obvious. Have you had discussions with this guy letting him know that you
do not want him seeing your sister? That it's totally inappropriate? She's
just a kid? A discussion, that is clearly being held from the perspective
of legal guardian, not "overprotective" brother.
Additionally, if it's not absolutely necessary for you to go on this trip,
maybe you could rethink how wise it is to go away at this time. I
understand how everyone needs a break, but, right now your sister needs a
parent, which is you for the time being.
I really commend you, by the way for stepping up to the plate like you have.
Good luck.
Lisa
xkatx
"Daniel" wrote in message ...
> I'm posting in here because I've not got much (if any) help elsewhere.
Sorry
> if this is somewhat long, but allot is going on.
>
Wow. This hits me damn close to home. Reading this, I honestly saw myself
in a lot of it. To be completely honest, I can really say, "Been there,
done that!"
I was 15. I had a "boyfriend" who was 20, but had the mentality of a 13
year old, I see now. He was slow, stupid, had no ambition, no job, no home
aside from living off his 18 year old brother, who was also trying to
support their mother and a cousin of about the same age. I got into
'hanging' out with him, and his brother/cousin, and next thing I knew, I was
15 years old, pregnant, and even before they knew I was pregnant, I was
already on bad terms with them. My grades in school dropped because I had
just stopped going to school all together, just to go hang out at his trashy
little apartment. I now see everything had broken my parents' (and
family's) heart to have to go through it all, and all because of me. If
what you say is really how everything is, I can GUARANTEE you that she's
going to end up pregnant, and where do you think Mr. Wonderful will be?
He'll move on. If he shows such little respect for his own parents, and
your sister right now, when the shit hits the fan, he'll be gone faster than
a fart in the wind.
This child, and yes, she is still a child, needs to know that you do love
her. She needs to be shown that you love her and care for her and don't
want to hurt her. You need to enforce rules and yes, structure. This is
YOUR house that she is living in. YOU make the rules. You are not her
father, and you aren't expected to be, but you just might be the best male
role model she's ever had and maybe ever will have. You have taken on the
parenting roll of your sister, and for that, I'd give you a pat on the back
and my best wishes because I know it's hard. You need to be cutting that
Internet, or putting limits on it. There's many, MANY programs for all
platforms and computers that will allow you to lock up your computer, and
putting a password on your screen saver is useless because a quick reboot
will disable that. Lock unauthorized users out of your system because it's
your computer, your Internet, your power, your home, YOUR RULES. Limit her
time on the telephone, and monitor her calls if you can. Sit beside her in
the same room and read a book while she's on the phone if you must, but
don't make it obvious that you're actually 'watching' her, if you can.
She'll give you looks of death the whole time, but looks can't kill. Set
concrete rules, and let all rules have consequences, both 'good' and 'bad.'
If she doesn't want to live by your rules, then that's too bad for her.
Here, the age of consent is 14. I believe there's also x amount of years
difference for minors, but I'm not 100% sure. Does she pay rent? Bills?
Maybe she can get a job to fill some time, although I know that's an
impossible thought. I honestly don't know what to suggest because I was on
her side at that age, not yours. Send her to me for a month and she can
find out what the reality is of being a single, teen parent, and having 2
babies long before her 18th birthday.
There's a lot you can use to fill up her time, like said before, sports
teams, music lessons, teen church groups, rehab, since that's something she
just might need, and if not right now, almost definitely in the near future
if she keeps being so wild and a danger to herself, mainly, and those who
actually do love her and care for her, and really, this little boyfriend of
hers does not appear to actually care for her.
I don't know. If anyone wants to flame, flame away. I've been through the
EXACT same thing, as the wild teen, so I can definitely relate on a very
high level, but as far as suggestions go, I'm all out of them.
How about the time you are going to be away (although I'm not sure why you'd
go away, unless, of course, it is absolutely necessary) you can ship her off
to me and she can have a small taste of what could be reality. lol (j/k)
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
V
"Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
news:RdKdncDXeLR...@giganews.com...
> father allows), & they talked about her giving him a lap dance, then
> showering together for valentines day. I took this chat log to the police
> (he's 19, she's 14), but they gave the usual "blow-off" response & said that
> since they didn't come right out & say what was going on (used code words &
> phrases, which though are obvious, I guess you need non-code for evidence)
go to someone higher up, through the chain and do not take no for an answer.
It does not sound like this boy is a good influence on her. I would stay on
her like smell on poop!
V
>
>
P.Fritz
that her behavior is not that unusual for a girl of that age in that
situation. Without a father in their lives, girls of that age will latch
onto the first 'father figure' that shows them any attention, and will use
sex to keep the attention. Best of luck in trying to straighten the
situation out.
If it were me, I'd buy a large baseball bat and let a certian 19 y.o. I was
not afraid to use it on a few delicate body parts. :-)
"Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
news:RdKdncDXeLR...@giganews.com...
John Dunn
I think a good test you could try is this. Since you are already above being
honest by using spyware etc, why not invite the guy over, or call him, or
Message/Email him, and honestly try to convince him that she tested positive
for pregnancy. See what this guy is really made of. Even start a rumour that
she is pregnant in town. This if anything will make the guy think twice..
maybe even scare him. You could tell him that you know her very well and she
has put holes in condomes of previous boyfriends to get pregnant so she can
have someone to love her. That should scare him but good! So much so that he
might even have problems getting it up! (Sarcasm aside)...
Also, why not tell the truth to your sister. You are all worried about her
lying to you, yet you are lying to her about surveilence. Tell her that you
have have this software installed as it is an invasion of her privacy for
you not to. I know you are going to be upset, but please take five seconds
to breath, then read the next line.
What would you feel like if you found out someone was using a surveilence
software on you without first notifying you?
I do not support predators etc, and as someone said, including the police,
she is initiating most of this, so instead of being adversarial, why not
instead, try to talk nicely to her about it. Why not try to find out why she
likes this guy, How did they meet? Are they in school together? He could be
an adult student returning to highschool or something like that, but I am
just saying that maybe with a different approach of kindness rather than
lying, deciept and control, you can maybe just be kind of cool with her
instead, and ask for forgivness if you have been dominating her, and just
chat with her as a sibling.
Maybe inform her of the ramifications that can legally happen to you, and
even emotionally why you are concerned. She is your little sister and you
love her. Tell her that. Let her know, that you are honestly worried, get a
video, a real video not a movie, from an adoption agency which kids who have
had kids talk about having to give up her kid for adoption. There are so
many ways to do it aside from devieving her.
At her age, she is going to do what ever she wants. This is only natural.
You can not stop her from it all the time, so by providing her with some
education, and friendship instead of heavy handedness, you can hopefully
also maybe improve your own relationship with your sister, who is your
sister for life. So hopefully you can work something out.
My final suggestion, and a very serious one, is to print this email, or
select portions of it if you prefer to keep the surveilence software part
hidden from her (I don't condone that) and cut and paste a letter as If you
were asking for advice and you got it, then accidentally leave it in her
bathroom or on the table or in the living room.
Let her see you are worreid about her and actively asking for help. In your
letter, write how much you love her and are worried about her so she can see
it on her own terms, without her having to worry about saving face... or you
know what I mean..
John Dunn
Daniel
news:1050t42...@corp.supernews.com...
more. Cancling this trip isn't an option at this point so thats why I've
taken the proper precautions there & she will be watched very closely
(beleive it or not, I HAVE done ALLOT before posting here...this wasn't my
first attempt to get help). Dont take this as a flame any more than your
last sentence was a flame.
Daniel
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:46:46 -0600, "Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom>
>
Thanks...though I've figured this...Any ideas on (cheap but working)
options?
> They call you overprotective because of what? They are enabling a 19
> year old to seduce a 14 year old. That is not support.
>
> Your family needs support but the other adults, parent's friends, etc...
> are not the right kind of support. Your sister needs structure and
> self-control.
>
> Set concrete rules and stick to them. If she doesn't abide by them,
> start taking privileges away. Pull out the phone. Disconnect the
> internet. This is your home. She is 14. She does not make the rules.
> Waiting for something to happen is being defensive and you need an
> offense. If you don't, you can start planning the nursery now 'cause
> she will be pregnant within a year. You'll be lucky if she's only
> pregnant and not also fighting an addiction.
>
The only reason I've not done this yet is so that I can have some way to
keep watch over what is going on...I've had her phone suspended at times
which forces her into typing (into a log). The problem is that the one
being controlled actually has the ultimate controll...they can always decide
to go against you, no matter how the consiquences are (even someone being
held at gunpoint has the choice to die)...& if they just dont care (she
doesnt) then how do you handle that one?
Daniel
news:rA04c.6566$j05.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
things, many people assume you've done nothing & come running for help
first.)
> Additionally, if it's not absolutely necessary for you to go on this trip,
> maybe you could rethink how wise it is to go away at this time. I
> understand how everyone needs a break, but, right now your sister needs a
> parent, which is you for the time being.
>
I do have to go...so I did think things out & have taken the proper
precautions...for example, calling at random to the parent's phone lines
(you know there are public databases to look up area code & prefix to see
the provider...so I know if its a cell phone or not), plus having my
girlfriend's sister check in on her at random too. She IS being watched...I
fully expect her to try a few things.
> I really commend you, by the way for stepping up to the plate like you
have.
> Good luck.
>
Its either me or a shelter which she'd run from & not get any education even
if she was in it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM for kids her age in the
foster care system here...thats the reason they jumped at the chance to give
her to me. Took them less than 24 hrs to finalize.
> Lisa
>
>
Daniel
news:nz14c.25980$Up2.22526@pd7tw1no...
can say he'll be registering every time he moves...& I'm not meaning to vote
either...(I'll have the evidence...though I'D REALLY NOT WANT IT THAT
WAY!!!)
> This child, and yes, she is still a child, needs to know that you do love
> her. She needs to be shown that you love her and care for her and don't
> want to hurt her. You need to enforce rules and yes, structure. This is
> YOUR house that she is living in. YOU make the rules. You are not her
> father, and you aren't expected to be, but you just might be the best male
> role model she's ever had and maybe ever will have. You have taken on the
> parenting roll of your sister, and for that, I'd give you a pat on the
back
> and my best wishes because I know it's hard. You need to be cutting that
> Internet, or putting limits on it. There's many, MANY programs for all
> platforms and computers that will allow you to lock up your computer, and
> putting a password on your screen saver is useless because a quick reboot
> will disable that. Lock unauthorized users out of your system because
it's
> your computer, your Internet, your power, your home, YOUR RULES. Limit
her
> time on the telephone, and monitor her calls if you can. Sit beside her
in
> the same room and read a book while she's on the phone if you must, but
> don't make it obvious that you're actually 'watching' her, if you can.
> She'll give you looks of death the whole time, but looks can't kill. Set
> concrete rules, and let all rules have consequences, both 'good' and
'bad.'
> If she doesn't want to live by your rules, then that's too bad for her.
>
Actually thats some of what I'm looking for...know of any more software for
Win98 to help in this. By the way, I do know about zone alarm for internet
disabling, though I'd much rather leave that as her ONLY communication since
that is loggable & I can see whats going on & countermeasure it.
> Here, the age of consent is 14. I believe there's also x amount of years
> difference for minors, but I'm not 100% sure. Does she pay rent? Bills?
> Maybe she can get a job to fill some time, although I know that's an
> impossible thought. I honestly don't know what to suggest because I was
on
> her side at that age, not yours. Send her to me for a month and she can
> find out what the reality is of being a single, teen parent, and having 2
> babies long before her 18th birthday.
>
She wont do anything else extra right now...job, school, activities...she
had plans...until him.
> There's a lot you can use to fill up her time, like said before, sports
> teams, music lessons, teen church groups, rehab, since that's something
she
> just might need, and if not right now, almost definitely in the near
future
> if she keeps being so wild and a danger to herself, mainly, and those who
> actually do love her and care for her, and really, this little boyfriend
of
> hers does not appear to actually care for her.
>
Again thanks for the suggestions...but again, see above.
> I don't know. If anyone wants to flame, flame away. I've been through
the
> EXACT same thing, as the wild teen, so I can definitely relate on a very
> high level, but as far as suggestions go, I'm all out of them.
> How about the time you are going to be away (although I'm not sure why
you'd
> go away, unless, of course, it is absolutely necessary) you can ship her
off
> to me and she can have a small taste of what could be reality. lol (j/k)
>
Glad you understand the going away part (& not say "we all need a break, but
cancel the trip"). I'm prepared for that part (see other reply somewhere).
Having others watch her & random calling to the parents land based line to
ensure she's there.
But glad to see someone understands from her side why this isn't an easy fix
like so many think it is.
Remember, the one attempted to be controlled is the one with the real
ultimate decision...even someone at gun point has the decision to die...& if
someone doesn't care about losing everything anyway, what is there to lose?
Daniel
news:6C44c.571$wBa1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> THis is a tricky subject for sure...
>
> I think a good test you could try is this. Since you are already above
being
> honest by using spyware etc, why not invite the guy over, or call him, or
> Message/Email him, and honestly try to convince him that she tested
positive
> for pregnancy. See what this guy is really made of. Even start a rumour
that
> she is pregnant in town. This if anything will make the guy think twice..
> maybe even scare him. You could tell him that you know her very well and
she
> has put holes in condomes of previous boyfriends to get pregnant so she
can
> have someone to love her. That should scare him but good! So much so that
he
> might even have problems getting it up! (Sarcasm aside)...
>
as well immediatly after a fight & her mother (my mother too) supposedly
tested HIV+ 8 months ago. So pregnancy wont work if he's willing to risk
that she's not + (though there are many other factors to support that the
person who told her/us this was only lying to hurt her, but she wont listen
to reason that her father who doesn't care for her at all & shows it & has
only hurt her in the past will suddenly show up without any contact in a
long time saying that her mom has HIV & not be lieing about it...when no one
else was notified either & mom denies it too...Allot of other things on
this, but she still believes that her mother & possibly herself are HIV+).
> Also, why not tell the truth to your sister. You are all worried about her
> lying to you, yet you are lying to her about surveilence. Tell her that
you
> have have this software installed as it is an invasion of her privacy for
> you not to. I know you are going to be upset, but please take five seconds
> to breath, then read the next line.
>
They dont know I'm doing this...I dont want them to know until I have enough
evidence because I dont want to scare them into being too suspicious.
> What would you feel like if you found out someone was using a surveilence
> software on you without first notifying you?
>
Would you be upset to find out someone was spying on you & ran in to prevent
you from trying to wire up a bomb when you had no clue of what you were
doing? I have always felt that regardless of who it is used on, surveylence
is good if used in the right way. I dont mind if someone is spying on me
because I have nothing to hide & could care less about anything they find
out. Yes I know she could be reading this, but let her if she is.
Knowledge itself is not bad, its the way it is used.
> I do not support predators etc, and as someone said, including the police,
> she is initiating most of this, so instead of being adversarial, why not
> instead, try to talk nicely to her about it. Why not try to find out why
she
> likes this guy, How did they meet? Are they in school together? He could
be
> an adult student returning to highschool or something like that, but I am
> just saying that maybe with a different approach of kindness rather than
> lying, deciept and control, you can maybe just be kind of cool with her
> instead, and ask for forgivness if you have been dominating her, and just
> chat with her as a sibling.
>
Why do people assume that I didn't try the honest approach first? I did
that FIRST, for over a month & she saw that as a perfect chance to lie to me
& go even further behind my back...thats when I started reading the chat
logs & found stuff I needed to take to the sex crimes division (who didn't
give a sh*t)! She likes him "because he's cool", & he is cool "because he
is" (you know where that goes). She met him from her 19yr old (slutty)
friend, a former boyfriend of hers (this girl's former boyfriends have a
habbit of being preditors & pediphiles...one 21yr old recently got a 15yr
old girl pregant within months of her admitting to having been molested for
many years by her step father...people who know someone has been through
stuff like that & see it as a perfect opportunity to take advantage of
someone...THOSE kind of guys).
> Maybe inform her of the ramifications that can legally happen to you, and
> even emotionally why you are concerned. She is your little sister and you
> love her. Tell her that. Let her know, that you are honestly worried, get
a
> video, a real video not a movie, from an adoption agency which kids who
have
> had kids talk about having to give up her kid for adoption. There are so
> many ways to do it aside from devieving her.
>
Thats not an important point to her by now...she doesn't care...she's shown
obcession with him...we used to be pretty close until he came along & then
she's quit spending time with me unless I'm spending money on her (& not
meaning a few $) & even then I have to force it. The emotional effects of
giving your kid up for adoption dont work on someone who only met their
brother & sister a few years ago because similar situation happened to them.
She understands what that did to HER (our) mother & to us as well.
> At her age, she is going to do what ever she wants. This is only natural.
> You can not stop her from it all the time, so by providing her with some
> education, and friendship instead of heavy handedness, you can hopefully
> also maybe improve your own relationship with your sister, who is your
> sister for life. So hopefully you can work something out.
>
> My final suggestion, and a very serious one, is to print this email, or
> select portions of it if you prefer to keep the surveilence software part
> hidden from her (I don't condone that) and cut and paste a letter as If
you
> were asking for advice and you got it, then accidentally leave it in her
> bathroom or on the table or in the living room.
>
> Let her see you are worreid about her and actively asking for help. In
your
> letter, write how much you love her and are worried about her so she can
see
> it on her own terms, without her having to worry about saving face... or
you
> know what I mean..
>
She already knows I'm asking for help...problem is she is beyond caring
about it.
> John Dunn
>
>
Daniel
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:43:47 GMT, "xkatx" <.xkatx.@.shaw.ca.>
> someone else. Nothing beats the voice of experience.
>
Yes...thanks.
Tiffany
Daniel <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
> "Tiffany" <tiffa...@blazenet.net> wrote in message
> news:1050t42...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > Daniel <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
> > news:RdKdncDXeLR...@giganews.com...
I am not taking anything as a flame..... just offering suggestions. No one
has assumed that you did nothing before posting here..... We can't know
exactly what all has been done so we start at the first steps.
But has she been to a professional yet? Also... .try a more technical type
newsgroup for all that spy stuff. I am sure they are out there. They will
have tons of knowledge.
As more of the story unfolds though, I can't help but feel for her. She is
hurting, probably screaming inside, even depressed. This dickhead makes her
feel special. You are so new in her life that she might not trust you
completely yet. Heck, by the sounds of it, she might not be able to trust
many people at all.
Cele
<daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote:
[snip]
>She already knows I'm asking for help...problem is she is beyond caring
>about it.
Hi Daniel. First, let me tell you that what you are doing for your
sister is a critically important thing, and I admire you greatly for
it. I think that what you say above is wrong, though. I think that she
almost certainly *does* care, but hell if she'll let you know that.
I can't pretend to be able to tell you what to do. I can tell you a
little about what I've done myself, and hope it helps. I think Kat had
a lot of very helpful input and her insight pretty much fits with my
own, though from a different angle.
I have two daughters who are now 16 1/2 and nearly 19. The younger one
was abducted on her way to school and raped at knifepoint for a few
hours, while handcuffed and confined. Prior to that, she was a
youngish prepubertal 13 year old, very eager to please and sweet
natured. After the rape, she completely lost the plot, and although it
was a year before I knew what was wrong, I suddenly had a raging,
defiant teenager. I was nailing her windows shut to keep her from
jumping out. On one occasion, with her prior agreement, I tried
locking her in her room and she kicked down the door. There were
suicide attempts and there was a lot of taking off and going God knew
where. She's since told me she used to sit by the river and
contemplate going in. I absolutely *hated* the people she was hanging
out with. I was terrified that she was abusing drugs and/or alcohol.
Things are completely turned around now. She's in school, she's
working at a job caring for a disabled child, she's very much on
track. She continues to have some significant issues around sexuality,
which isn't at all surprising, and in her case, that means I don't
have your worry of early sexual activity. She's also in therapy and
working hard on dealing with the things she still struggles with.
Overall we have an excellent relationship involving a lot of mutual
trust. She's still a teenager, and she still pisses me off on
occasion, but it's most often pretty normal parent-kid stuff at this
point.
I made plenty of mistakes and I know, believe me, how excruciating it
is to be in the middle of this. It really *hurts* to watch a child you
love suffer and it hurts doubly when they express that by lashing out
at you, their primary support system. I can't begin to describe the
grief and betrayal and anger and frustration I felt.
So here are some of the things I learned, and wish I had known back
then, for whatever they're worth. Take what's useful and ignore the
rest.
- Even when they are especially horrible, maybe especially when
they're as awful as they know how to be, they *do* care what you say
and do and feel. They will do anything to keep you from thinking that,
but they *do care*. There was one time very shortly before T's
hospitalisation and disclosure of the rape, where she ran away to a
girlfriend's home. I didn't like the mother and felt it was a grossly
unhealthy place, and so I went to get her back. The mother let me in
but was hostile. The home had nine cats in it, and I have a history of
being so allergic to cats I can't even be in the room with one. When T
refused to come home, I said, "Ok, fine, I can't make you. But I won't
go without you." And I sat down crosslegged on the floor and waited
four hours, until she gave up and came home. She yelled at me
intermittently through that and I just kept saying, "I love you and I
won't go home without you." I now know, that although at the time she
was actually trying to get me to let her move out and even tried to
get Social Services to put her in foster care, the fact that I stuck
that night out meant a huge amount to her. She was so hurt and angry
because of what she was going through, that she couldn't begin to
express or even recognise what she needed, and the love I had for her.
But that night and other times like it were a part of what got through
to her that no matter *what* she did I was going to love her and she
wasn't going to get rid of me.
- I'm all in favour of surveillance software, but like ?John?, I think
the best possible use of it is to tell the kid flat out that you're
using it. I told mine that I was installing it and that she should
tell everyone she talked with that I had done so, and then they should
conduct themselves as if I was standing in the room listening to
everything they said. My daughter accepted this because at the time
she was being quite brutally bullied, and she knew that I needed
evidence to protect her, which I got. I realise that your situation is
quite different in that respect, and I understand that you're trying
to gather information for a conviction. What I suggest you do, without
myself having any judgement one way or another, is to think through
what your goals are, in what order. I would imagine your top priority
is to protect her, and that charging this guy is a poor second, unless
in some fashion it aids in the protection goal. If that's right...if
'getting' him is secondary to her protection, you might want to
consider whether there are ways you can use the things you've talked
about, including surveillance that *she knows about* to reduce her
contact with the guy. I don't know. Just something to toss around.
Here's the software I used: http://www.spywaredirectory.com/starr.asp
- There is no way in the world to control a teenager who doesn't want
to be controlled. There really isn't. People who think there is have
never dealt with a truly unwilling to be controlled teen. I agree with
some that most teens want to be controlled on some level, but I also
know that there is *no controlling* a teen who chooses to resist hard
enough. So the secret seems to be, or was for us, anyway, to get buy
in by *showing* the love you have and the reasons you do what you do.
That, I think, is what my sitting in that house that night was a part
of. (BTW, I had so much natural adrenaline in my body, I never even
reacted to all those cats.) But it's not just things like that. It's
the relentlessness of loving them when they seem wholly unlovable
that I think finally gets through, if anything does. It's making them
a lunch that you know they won't eat, and telling them you love them
and want them to eat it and you're going to make it just in case
(yeah, yeah, I know 14 year olds can make their own lunches, but I'm
talking about how you can show them that your money is where your
mouth is). It's telling them you're going to put software on their
computer for their protection no matter how angry it makes them,
because you love them enough to withstand their anger. In my case,
there were times when I physically restrained my daughter to keep her
from doing dangerous things, and that was very hard and I would then
hold her until she cried in my arms. Gotta be careful with that, but
when you're in the trenches, you sometimes go where you never thought
you would. (special note: I have training and certification in non
violent holds, so YMMV) Anyway, ultimately, the only control you will
ever have is control that they buy into, because they recognise that
you truly do have their best interests at heart. And that doesn't come
easily when they've been badly hurt. They don't believe *anyone* can
have their best interests at heart. They are wounded, and like wounded
animals, they lash out at the nearest being. All you can do is to let
them know how much you care and to tell them what you see and why it
hurts.
- Consistency helps a lot. Keeping your expectations very predictable,
enforcing very predictably, setting out what you're going to do and
why in advance of problems, all help. They help partly because then
the teen gets a sense of order in their world, and that's the first
step towards wanting order in their world, and finding ways of their
own to make it happen. That is, developing self control.
- Showing as little anger as possible is a very good idea. It's also
damned near impossible a lot of the time. But if you can keep calm
when they're moving heaven and earth to punch your buttons, you
maintain your credibility and your own control and they eventually
come to respect that. Passive, subverted anger counts as anger.
- Making your consequences as logical and natural as possible is very
helpful. This has the effect of removing you from the role of 'bad
guy' a lot of the time. So, for example, when my daughter kicked in
her door, I waited until she was much calmer (about a week, as I
recall), and then I taught her how to repair the door. It was so
damaged that it was only partly fixable, and that meant it didn't
close properly. And that was a consequence that mattered to her. When
she was in the company of a girl who had shoplifted and hidden the
goods in her bag, I told her that she clearly needed protection from
finding stolen goods in her bag, and that therefore she was going to
have me in her company, or an adult of my choosing, for the next two
weeks, at which time we would review whether her behaviour indicated a
respect for her own safety during that time. (this was much easier for
me to enforce where we lived, because we were in a rural and isolated
place and she couldn't get too far without help). I even volunteered
to chaperone the high school dance so that she could go to it. Sure,
she could've taken off from the dance without telling me. By that
time, she was beginning at some level to realise she did need me to be
in charge, I think, because she didn't do that.
- Plan your consequences in advance, so that as often as possible, you
already know what you're going to do when she defies you. Make them
realistic. Try not to threaten, but just state the consequences when
she shows signs of breaking the rules, then follow through as calmly
as possible after she does so.
- Try not to carry a grudge from one incident to the next. They change
their mood literally in seconds, and much of the time literally don't
realise that you're still on what happened ten minutes ago.
- She's sexually active. My daughter who was hurt isn't, largely
because the nature of the crime against her was so horrific that the
thought frightens her, and that's come in useful at the moment
although it'll take a whack of therapy to get past that for later.
Anyway, my elder daughter certainly is. I figured as soon as she was,
my best bet was to pay for the birth control and condoms, and make
sure she had 'em, because at least that way they're safe. Obviously
you don't want to condone teen sex, but once it's already underway,
you need damage control, IMO.
- This guy will dump her. Or she'll have had enough of him and she'll
dump him. At that point, you don't want her to be afraid to tell you
or reluctant to do the dumping because she thinks you'll say "I told
you so." You're right, he's out of line, and sure, you might be able
to make legal trouble for him, but the real issue here is trying to
make sure you have her trust for when the inevitable happens and she
needs you to pick up the pieces. Because at THAT point, she stands to
learn something from her experience if you can help her interpret it,
whereas otherwise, she'll likely go on to repeat the mistake. So think
about how you can let her know that you object not because you think
her judgement sucks or because you want control over her, but because
you're genuinely concerned. Let her know that you want to be there for
her whether or not you agree with her choices and whether or not she
thinks she needs your advice.
Holy cow, this post is way, way too long. I could write a book. I
actually am thinking about it. LOL I'm going to stop. Consider a look
at a book called, "How to Deal With Your Acting-Out Teenager"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871314797/103-4805683-6143038?v=glance#product-details
I found it was the only book I read on the subject (and I read a lot
of 'em!) that really 'got' what this was like and had realistic,
sensible advice.
I hope that as long as it's been to wade through, if you made it this
far, this is some help somewhere. My heart goes out to you. The good
news is, their brains *really are* different and they really *do*
change and get better. They have far, far too many neural connections
at 13 and 14 and those prune down between then and the end of the
teens. So if you can just keep her healthy, it will most likely get
better. And after you've been through all this and gone the course,
you'll know it was worth it. I do. Mine's doing well, and it does feel
good to know that I've been a part of that.
Try to take care of yourself too. You've taken on an awful lot. She's
lucky to have a big brother who cares so much. Some kids don't have
that, and the kids without anyone are the kids who get lost....
Be well.
Cele
Daniel
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:09:47 -0600, "Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom>
> >
> >The only reason I've not done this yet is so that I can have some way to
> >keep watch over what is going on...I've had her phone suspended at times
> >which forces her into typing (into a log). The problem is that the one
> >being controlled actually has the ultimate controll...they can always
decide
> >to go against you, no matter how the consiquences are (even someone being
> >held at gunpoint has the choice to die)...& if they just dont care (she
> >doesnt) then how do you handle that one?
>
> away their privileges. Their actions must have consequences. They don't
> get privileges before they earn them. If she wants to visit a friend,
> she'll have to do something to earn it. If she wants to watch TV, she
> has to keep her room clean. If she wants to get on the 'net for an
> hour, she will have to clean up after dinner. If she's parking online
> for hours at a time, that has to end. Ration it. All you have to
> provide is a roof over her head, food on the table, a way to get to
> school, medical care, and season appropriate clothing. Extras are "The
> Gap", the computer, TV, the phone, visits to friends. Believe me, she
> will care if you take those privileges away.
>
Been doing that...the reason I say it doesn't work is that there isn't much
left to take...
> The computer is not your window into her personal life. Your window is
> communication with her - directly. You're her support system. You, her
> teachers, and the community that helps teens. If you fail, the rest of
> the system better not. You need people *with* you... on your side to
> help her to regain her self-respect and self-control.
>
> You have to be positive - that things are not great now but they can be
> better... or they can get worse. That part is up to her. Small
> successes count. She needs goals that are worthwhile and will give her
> a sense of accomplishment.
>
> I think you're going to have to involve her school: teachers and
> counselors. They need to set goals for her that are realistic. Her
> grades need to be improved. If she improves her grades, she can watch
> an hour of TV nightly, if not, then she cannot. You will have to check
> in with the teachers so arrange a weekly/bimonthly time to call. Yes,
> it's more punishment for the parent/guardian but you need to be strong
> for her right now. Her life has sucked and she has had to be too
> strong, too adult, all too soon. Once she gets the hang of behaving and
> attending to her schoolwork, you can slack off a little. Your goal with
> school should be to get her to handle it on her own.
>
> Other community members can help too. Contact your local Boys and Girls
> Club, for example, and find out what's going on there. Talk to someone
> and tell them what you're dealing with and get suggestions. Talk to the
> clergy of your house of worship. See if they have community service
> that she can participate in that will make her realize that others have
> problems too. Consider family counseling. Strongly consider it. You
> both need support and they can see what we cannot because we're too
> close to the overall picture.
>
> Most importantly, talk to her. Do not confront her and constantly tell
> her how awful she is (not saying you are). Praise the good things -
> even more in the beginning than you think is "normal". Praise
> initiative, "I appreciate it when you clean up after dinner," for
> example. There is a balance between what she needs as encouragement
> and what she needs as discipline.
>
I've NOT been telling her how bad she is...& like I said, the problem wasn't
from the start, it only happened before this guy. I do keep up with her
teachers (have had problems contacting them though). Other activities dont
work, tried them, she dropped EVERYTHING (even communication with me) for
him. The problem is preventing her to build the alter to make offerings &
sacrifices to him next.
The main problem is taking someone who was doing good before they met him,
getting them to realize what they're in, & then reversing her to the way she
was before meeting him.
> You're stepping into all this in the middle. I know that's extremely
> difficult. You've got just a few years to help her turn her life
> around and it is a huge sacrifice. I don't know how you're managing to
> feel like you're not overwhelmed. What do you do for yourself? Who is
> on your side?
>
> 'Kate
>
Tiffany
Daniel <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
Been there with my daughter too. The situation wasn't like yours (the boy)
but she was trying to lie about everything it seemed. She had no phone, no
PC, no music, no nothing fun unless it was with me. She is a little younger
though but I was at that point where there was nothing left to take. It blew
over somehow. I think that the dickhead will mess up and break her heart and
she will become more like the girl you started out with. What I am sure
scares you most is how far it will go before that happens.
Joelle
>> will care if you take those privileges away.
>>
>Been doing that...the reason I say it doesn't work is that there isn't much
>left to take...
You've taken away EVERYTHING? So now she's sleeping on a mattress on a floor?
I've been reading your responses and you seem to discard everything people say
but insisting you've done it or it won't work. Not sure if anyone can help you
if that's true. I
>the main problem is taking someone who was doing good before they met him,
>getting them to realize what they're in, & then reversing her to the way she
>was before meeting him.
Nope that is not the main problem and the problem is that you see the problem
is all this guy and if it wasnt for this terrible guy she'd be fine. She
wasn't fine before this or she would not have been attracted to him. People
are attracted to people for a reason. She CHOSE him. Healthy, well adjusted,
self-confident, girls don't choose guys like that. That's the mistake people
make when they see people choosing jerk boyfriends and girlfriends. They blame
it all on the jerk. If you don't deal with the reason she wants a jerk, she'll
just find another one.
Yea I know, I'm wrong, you've done that, tried that...won't work. It's
hopeless. Whatever.
Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle
lm
>> Believe me, she
>>> will care if you take those privileges away.
>>>
>>Been doing that...the reason I say it doesn't work is that there isn't much
>>left to take...
>
>You've taken away EVERYTHING? So now she's sleeping on a mattress on a floor?
>
>I've been reading your responses and you seem to discard everything people say
>but insisting you've done it or it won't work. Not sure if anyone can help you
>if that's true. I
>
>>the main problem is taking someone who was doing good before they met him,
>>getting them to realize what they're in, & then reversing her to the way she
>>was before meeting him.
>
>Nope that is not the main problem and the problem is that you see the problem
>is all this guy and if it wasnt for this terrible guy she'd be fine. She
>wasn't fine before this or she would not have been attracted to him. People
>are attracted to people for a reason. She CHOSE him. Healthy, well adjusted,
>self-confident, girls don't choose guys like that. That's the mistake people
>make when they see people choosing jerk boyfriends and girlfriends. They blame
>it all on the jerk. If you don't deal with the reason she wants a jerk, she'll
>just find another one.
And this poor girl has a bucketful of reasons. Spot on, Joelle, I hope
Daniel hears it.
lm
P.Fritz
"lm" <lmandt...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:sis35052b2ae06r2v...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:41:53 -0600, 'Kate <> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:43:47 -0600, "Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom>
> >
> >>Been doing that...the reason I say it doesn't work is that there isn't
much
> >>left to take...
> >
> >dependability will have to do then. If her relationship with you is
> >easier than her relationship with the 19 year old, then she'll be more
> >likely to give that up.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I've NOT been telling her how bad she is...
> >
> >have no way of knowing that, I felt strongly about putting it out there
> >and letting you deny it.
> >
> >>& like I said, the problem wasn't
> >>from the start, it only happened before this guy. I do keep up with her
> >>teachers (have had problems contacting them though).
> >
> >you can't keep in touch with them via phone.
> >
> >>Other activities dont
> >>work, tried them, she dropped EVERYTHING (even communication with me)
for
> >>him. The problem is preventing her to build the alter to make offerings
&
> >>sacrifices to him next.
> >
> >doesn't, I'm sure, want to feel like she's doing everything wrong and
> >that she should be beholden to you (even if she is). We all need some
> >pride. He is giving her something that she needs or he wouldn't be able
> >to influence her. She is probably putting out to get what she needs
> >emotionally - to be appreciated and feel loved for who she is and not
> >someone else's ideal of who she should be or what she should be doing.
> >"I love you but" is the worst phrase I've ever heard.
> >
> >I think you're going to have to enlist her help in providing what she
> >needs from you. Outright ask her, aside from carte blanche with her
> >boyfriend, what one thing would improve your relationship with her.
> >Start there and make sure you get something out of it. For example, if
> >you give her X, then you want Y in return.
> >
> >
> >>The main problem is taking someone who was doing good before they met
him,
> >>getting them to realize what they're in, & then reversing her to the way
she
> >>was before meeting him.
> >
> >old has influence over her. This has become a fight and she's rooting
> >for the other side. If she sees an effort from you to change the
> >present, then maybe, in time she will meet you more than half-way.
> >
> >This hasn't been just since the boyfriend, BTW. There were problems
> >before that directly relate to what is going on now. All the blame is
> >not the boyfriend's. The solution is not just get rid of the boyfriend.
> >The solution is to fix the problems that resulted in her feeling that a
> >19 year old boyfriend is appropriate.
>
> Yes, definitely. Daniel, you and she had no time to establish a
> relationship before all this happened. So unfortunately you don't know
> each other well, don't have a give-and-take, don't have basic rules
> for around the house. You're reacting to each other and to events. You
> need to take a breather from the power struggle that's going on and
> talk/listen to each other. Is there someone local, maybe with the
> foster care agency, who can serve as a social worker/mediator? You
> can't parent by surveillance, I understand your need to document this
> guy's predatory behavior, but as far as working with her, you need to
> communicate face to face.
I wouldn't necessarily label the guy a predator, sounds more like a jerk
that can't establish a relationship with someone his own age, or perhaps has
the maturity of a 14 y.o.
And I also get tired of people lumping them together with
pedophiles..............a 14 y.o. girl while emotionally immature is
phyically an adult. Hell, a century ago, that was 'marrying' age.
>
> Good luck.
>
> lm
lm
But now it's not marrying age, not by a long shot. I consciously did
not call him a pedophile, but I would definitely call his behavior
predatory. He knows damn well what he's doing. He knows she's
vulnerable and he knows his presence is destabilizing what there is of
her home life. He's sniffing out weakness. Has nothing to do with her
age.
Anyway the focus of my post was that Daniel has got to talk to his
sister separate from the surveillance.
lm
Tiffany
P.Fritz <paulNOf...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:1053tpg...@corp.supernews.com...
I agree he is not a pedophile also and shouldn't be called such. As for a 14
year old being emotionally immature.... I know 20-60 year olds that are
emotionally immature. Male and female. This guy is definitely a jerk. But
just as a side note (not to downplay what Dan is going through), maybe she
is aggressive and seeking him and controlling him. Hell, women are known to
do that. I think that main point though is getting this girl help. Period.
T
P.Fritz
Of course, but the O.P. is focusing on 'the jerk' as the root of all the
problems, I think Joelle hit the nail on the head, and you are closer to the
truth. In my work at the H.S., I've had 14 y.o. girls hit on me, one was
so bold she came up and asked "why I just didn't take her home with me" It
would have been very easy to take advantage of them. I can easily see how a
loser 19 y.o. would do so.
>
> T
>
>
Tiffany
That is scary though for girls to be that aggressive. Plus these girls don't
look their age so its easy for a guy to think she is only 14 but LOOKS like
a women. I am just so hoping this girl gets the proper help.
T
P.Fritz
Must be the gray hair and the beer belly LOL........that really wow's 'em
>
> That is scary though for girls to be that aggressive. Plus these girls
don't
> look their age so its easy for a guy to think she is only 14 but LOOKS
like
> a women. I am just so hoping this girl gets the proper help.
Every one of them has been from fatherless homes......they may not look 14,
but the moment they open their mouths, you can tell LOL.
I'm thinking that some sort of residential program may be the only solution.
That is what it took for my step-neice to straighten her out......Many times
insurance will cover it.
>
> T
>
>
P.Fritz
<'Kate> wrote in message news:td2450djbarssuthr...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:58:13 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> <paulNOf...@voyager.net>
>
> >Every one of them has been from fatherless homes......they may not look
14,
> >but the moment they open their mouths, you can tell LOL.
> >
> >I'm thinking that some sort of residential program may be the only
solution.
> >That is what it took for my step-neice to straighten her out......Many
times
> >insurance will cover it.
>
> of what was done TO her and her very normal reactions.
I don't know about calling her normal ;-) but again, I see the root
cause of it from an almost total rejection by her biological father.
>
> 'Kate
>
P.Fritz
<'Kate> wrote in message news:ga2450tr60ujj7iqf...@4ax.com...
> >phyically an adult. Hell, a century ago, that was 'marrying' age.
>
Think 'Kentucky' LOL
>
> 'Kate
>
V
"Joelle" <revj...@aol.comgoaway> wrote in message
news:20040312103636...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> > Believe me, she
> >> will care if you take those privileges away.
> >>
> >Been doing that...the reason I say it doesn't work is that there isn't much
> >left to take...
>
> You've taken away EVERYTHING? So now she's sleeping on a mattress on a
floor?
>
That is what I say is a "Monster Timeout". I read a book one time about
Monster Timeouts and one time J had a bed and a dresser.
It sure snapped him back into the real world!
V
V
Not a pedophile, but a statuatory rapist. The legal age is 18. He needs to
abide by that rule. She is too young for him and someone has got to put their
foot down or she will be posting to this group, as a single mother. Hi, I am a
15 y/o with a newborn. Come on!
V
V
>snip>
> Of course, but the O.P. is focusing on 'the jerk' as the root of all the
> problems, I think Joelle hit the nail on the head, and you are closer to the
> truth. In my work at the H.S., I've had 14 y.o. girls hit on me, one was
> so bold she came up and asked "why I just didn't take her home with me" It
> would have been very easy to take advantage of them. I can easily see how a
> loser 19 y.o. would do so.
>
So Paul you are so **** hot ***** a teenager will hit on you?
lol..I am kidding you.
V
Daniel
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:43:47 -0600, "Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom>
>
much
> >left to take...
>
> dependability will have to do then. If her relationship with you is
> easier than her relationship with the 19 year old, then she'll be more
> likely to give that up.
>
him?
>
>
> >I've NOT been telling her how bad she is...
>
> I figured you weren't overtly telling her that she was but because I
> have no way of knowing that, I felt strongly about putting it out there
> and letting you deny it.
>
OK.
> >& like I said, the problem wasn't
> >from the start, it only happened before this guy. I do keep up with her
> >teachers (have had problems contacting them though).
>
> I'm glad to hear that you are. It's very important. They can fax you if
> you can't keep in touch with them via phone.
>
Or E-mail.
> >Other activities dont
> >work, tried them, she dropped EVERYTHING (even communication with me) for
> >him. The problem is preventing her to build the alter to make offerings
&
> >sacrifices to him next.
>
> Or finding ways to open communication up between you again. She
> doesn't, I'm sure, want to feel like she's doing everything wrong and
> that she should be beholden to you (even if she is). We all need some
> pride. He is giving her something that she needs or he wouldn't be able
> to influence her. She is probably putting out to get what she needs
> emotionally - to be appreciated and feel loved for who she is and not
> someone else's ideal of who she should be or what she should be doing.
> "I love you but" is the worst phrase I've ever heard.
>
I gave her what she needed & wanted. She had my time, I'd talk to her any
time she wanted, we spent allot of time with each other, when she wanted or
not when she didnt want to (I didn't ever force her to let me around)..I
supported her. I was the one who helped get her out of her bad living
situation with our mom & her abusive boyfriend. I gave her a home...she was
VERY happy & her life was doing great. She constantly thanked me,
appreciated me, told everyone how perfect everything was for her. The only
thing she still wanted was "to be a normal teen ager", even if that meant
drinking, drugs, partying, messing your life up, she thinks thats "normal" &
wanted to do it. I talked to her about that & was getting her used to the
idea of what that could do to her & how much she could lose. She understood
& was moving away from that & those kind of people & being even more happy &
glad she did. Then HE came along & completely reversed everything. Her
grades went down, she skipped some school, she's back into doing drugs,
probably more & worse other things I'm not listing here, she doesn't spend
ANY time with me unless I do something to force it (like plan something she
likes & plan to do that with her...but its got to be something expensive
which I can't afford to do or keep doing). Thats what I'm not sure about.
Why someone with so much would want to throw it all away just "because thats
what normal teens/people do"? (just like name brand clothing...I don't
understand why people buy clothes with someone's name on them because a
commercial/advertisement says it's cool)
> I think you're going to have to enlist her help in providing what she
> needs from you. Outright ask her, aside from carte blanche with her
> boyfriend, what one thing would improve your relationship with her.
> Start there and make sure you get something out of it. For example, if
> you give her X, then you want Y in return.
>
Can do that one. But if (or more likely when) she doesn't hold up to it,
she doesn't get it.
>
> >The main problem is taking someone who was doing good before they met
him,
> >getting them to realize what they're in, & then reversing her to the way
she
> >was before meeting him.
>
> I don't think you can stuff her back into the pre-teen box. The 19 year
> old has influence over her. This has become a fight and she's rooting
> for the other side. If she sees an effort from you to change the
> present, then maybe, in time she will meet you more than half-way.
>
> This hasn't been just since the boyfriend, BTW. There were problems
> before that directly relate to what is going on now. All the blame is
> not the boyfriend's. The solution is not just get rid of the boyfriend.
> The solution is to fix the problems that resulted in her feeling that a
> 19 year old boyfriend is appropriate.
>
She's felt that way for a long time...before me even...not just with males
but females too. I think part of it is that she is able to do more that
she'd not be able to without hanging around adults (such as smoke...how is
she supposed to get that from a <18yr old?). The reason I'm saying so much
of it is him too is because of how she changed from before him to after him.
She's dropped her closest long time friends for him (hardly has any friends
left). She's even dropped me for him.
> 'Kate
>
xkatx
"Daniel" wrote in message ...
> I've NOT been telling her how bad she is...& like I said, the problem
wasn't
> from the start, it only happened before this guy. I do keep up with her
> teachers (have had problems contacting them though). Other activities
dont
> work, tried them, she dropped EVERYTHING (even communication with me) for
> him. The problem is preventing her to build the alter to make offerings &
> sacrifices to him next.
Hm... Someone, please, correct me if I'm wrong, but did Daniel not say
something in regards to s some big raid or something in Sept of 2003? That
alone leads me to believe that the problems had started long before Mr.
Wonderful stumbled into her life and swept her off her precious feet to take
her to Paradise. If he was around even before that, I still stick to that
there were some problems even before Mr. Wonderful.
> The main problem is taking someone who was doing good before they met him,
> getting them to realize what they're in, & then reversing her to the way
she
> was before meeting him.
No, that is where you are wrong. I speak STRAIGHT from experience, FIRST
HAND. Doesn't matter who initiated any type of "relationship" or who did
what, when and where. She is to be blamed just as much as he is, because
from all you've said, not once did it cross my mind that he is the one who
is FORCING her to stick herself to him like gum on the bottom of your shoe.
I met a loser, he can be blamed for everything possible, or I can take some
responsibility that it was MY decision, and my decision alone, to stick with
this said loser. If she was so 'good' before, then there would have been no
other reason for her to be attracted to him except if she really wasn't as
'good' as you believe her to be. You said yourself that only within the
last couple years you have actually had closer and constant contact with
her. How on earth can you jump to such conclusions as you have? Your
sister needs to find a way to take some responsibility in this, although
that's not really an option right now, but it very well might be when she
ends up being a 15 year old, single mom, missing out on almost ALL of her
teenage years to get up every 3 hours day in and day out to feed, change,
bathe, cradle and sing to a baby. When she is put in the position of having
to give up her youth at a young age because she is no longer the child,
maybe then it will hit her hard. Took that for me, and from experience, I
hope to hell that it doesn't take that for her.
Friday night. Guess where I am? Home. Guess what I'm doing tonight? I'm
not hitting the bars to drink myself silly and stand around with a mic in my
drunken face while going to karaoke with friends my age because I have to
put pj's on, read bedtime stories, give out hugs and kisses and goodnight's,
then be up nice and early before 8am on a Saturday morning because that's
the latest my day has to actually start.
Yup, I'm not quite 21, even, and I have 2 sons who are just over 3 and 4.
My actions and decisions have had consequences, and I got myself into it,
and I'll be damned if I don't make the absolute best of it. MY actions. MY
decisions. MY responsibilities.
Don't go around blaming this all on your lovely and perfect little sis' Mr.
Wonderful, because, in all reality, blame the girl as much as the boy.
xkatx
<'Kate> wrote in message news:0n74501tt60knb2h5...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:36:16 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> <paulNOf...@voyager.net>
> >
>
> >I don't know about calling her normal ;-) but again, I see the root
> >cause of it from an almost total rejection by her biological father.
>
>
> 'Kate
I recall something about him not ever being around, other than once in a
blue moon to bring her money and his apologies of not being around and empty
promises of changing that.
xkatx
"V" wrote in message ...
> Not a pedophile, but a statuatory rapist. The legal age is 18. He needs to
> abide by that rule. She is too young for him and someone has got to put
their
> foot down or she will be posting to this group, as a single mother. Hi, I
am a
> 15 y/o with a newborn. Come on!
> V
Every place is different. I'm not sure if it's been established where
abouts in this world that Daniel is, but here I know for sure the age of
consent is 14. And... Although I'm not 100% sure, I think it goes something
like age of consent is 14, and up to a 10 year age difference OR something
similar to that. I know for sure that at 14, a girl/boy can have sexual
relations with a 19 year old man/woman.
And, in all reality, I should be stepping out of this entire conversation
before I really do lose it. I WAS in that position. I had just turned 16
when my first son was born. Go figure. I had just turned 17 when my second
was born. Only now, though, I can take responsibility for my own actions.
I seriously do need to put this entire thread on ignore...
xkatx
"Daniel" wrote in message ...
> The emotional effects of
> giving your kid up for adoption dont work on someone who only met their
> brother & sister a few years ago because similar situation happened to
them.
> She understands what that did to HER (our) mother & to us as well.
Ok, seriously. You need to shut the fuck up. Hit another nerve on me and
you'll regret everything you've ever said. Take this as the warning it is,
not as a threat it isn't.
xkatx
"Daniel" wrote in message ...
> > "xkatx" wrote in message ...
Although it doesn't seem anything I, or really anyone, has said will help,
maybe after a second or third glance it might hold something. Seriously,
Daniel, everything and anything I've said (Including above, somewhere, where
I told you to shut the fuck up) was not said because I wanted to be nasty or
mean or rude. Really, it was only a couple years ago that I was in your
sister's EXACT position. I'm not trying to be mean or hit below the belt,
and I'm not ever going to try and take cheap shots at you, your sister or
anyone involved. I survived, although maybe not in the 'ideal' way, but in
the long run, and still running, I have and continue to survive, although
sometimes barely.
xkatx
I've got a crapload of software and recommendations for stuff like that.
Something like a crappy, downloaded 'firewall' (such as ZoneAlarm) won't
work. Although not quite like spying, have you ever considered something
that will lock unauthorized users out? Something like SystemSecurity2003 (I
believe it is) is perfect for the administrational part of computers.
Nothing can get through it without going through the 'admin' (you) and all
traffic in and out of the computer stays logged and kept readily available.
I've liked it. I used it when I had a deadbeat, leeching friend staying
with me for a little while. I found it very useful. lol
V
"xkatx" <.xkatx.@.shaw.ca.> wrote in message
news:Dwv4c.791171$ts4.681593@pd7tw3no...
Where do you live?
Statutory laws are usually similar.
V
V
I argue in a lot of my newgroups and threats and warning are to be taken
seriously. Just what do you think you are going to do? Go where he is and kick
his ass because he has a different opinion.
Come on girl!
V
V
"V" <vbi...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:8Zv4c.2643$EW5....@news02.roc.ny...
>
> Where do you live?
> Statutory laws are usually similar.
> V
>
>
here is a link to stat rape laws by state.
fyi.
V
Daniel
february she wanted me to trust her more & to talk to her more & be more
honest with her & her with me. Since then she has went behind my back, lied
to me, skipped school, had her grades go down more...
xkatx
Good ol' Canada.
Laws usually are similar, but they still vary. I think they should all be
the same. People are still people, no matter where they live.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
xkatx
>
> ...
> >
> >
> >
> > > The emotional effects of
> > > giving your kid up for adoption dont work on someone who only met
their
> > > brother & sister a few years ago because similar situation happened to
> > them.
> > > She understands what that did to HER (our) mother & to us as well.
> >
> > Ok, seriously. You need to shut the fuck up. Hit another nerve on me
and
> > you'll regret everything you've ever said. Take this as the warning it
is,
> > not as a threat it isn't.
> >
> >
> kat you have the right to hit "ignore".
> I argue in a lot of my newgroups and threats and warning are to be taken
> seriously. Just what do you think you are going to do? Go where he is and
kick
> his ass because he has a different opinion.
> Come on girl!
> V
>
>
No, of course not. But I will get out of hand on certain subjects, this
being one of them, and I'll really let him have my views on such things,
which can be very, very strong, and really, I'm not sure anyone really wants
to read EXACTLY what I think right now, on the subject, not going over to
find him and smack him over the head, although there have been times when
the thought has crossed my mind ;) and I have wished he were a friend of
mine so I could take his sister out for a day or two and show her what
happens, in the long run, when you do things I did and continue to do things
that she seems to be doing right now and lately.
xkatx
<'Kate> wrote in message news:da35505unf2fivgqs...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:04:18 GMT, "xkatx" <.xkatx.@.shaw.ca.>
> > I survived, although maybe not in the 'ideal' way, but in
> >the long run, and still running, I have and continue to survive, although
> >sometimes barely.
>
> I know it's hard for you right now. I remember feeling the same way -
> I could never sleep late, have a day off, etc... it passes in time. I
> can sleep late now if I want but after 25 years of motherhood I'm up
> bright and early every damn morning. :-)
>
> I was a 20 year old mom but didn't have much of a childhood. I took
> care of my siblings during my teen years and went right from that into
> marriage. Mom was hospitalized a lot and compared with that, married
> and on my own with someone who loved me seemed so much better. It was,
> actually... for many years and then it wasn't for a few. I simply
> completed a pattern that I'd learned. I can see it now but it's been a
> 20+ year cycle of behavior that started well before I was old enough to
> make my own decisions.
>
> You took on all that responsibility but you're not the only one who
> created the choices that you made. Life situations create them too.
> Patterns of behavior, survival decisions, and having to take on too much
> responsibility with little support are just a few things that lead us to
> make choices.
>
> I know you didn't want to make this about you... so that's all I wanted
> to say. It wasn't *all* your fault and you got the better end of the
> deal. So did I.
>
> 'Kate
>
Yes, I know. I've had a few friends, mostly from a teen parenting class at
a school I went to for high school, and many were in the same area of the
field I was. Some are doing just fine, and some aren't, in my eyes. Ran
into a girl I had lived with just before and right after B was born, she
actually moved in the same day I came home with a new baby, and had a
daughter 11 days later, I think it was... Anyways, ran into her at the mall
within the last year, and she said child welfare took her baby from her, and
she seemed fine about it... I dunno... Something like that would kill me,
and it's just not something I could ever imagine. Another girl I went to
school with said they took her baby (about 6 months older than B) away from
her because she was working as a stripper or something... She always came
across, to me, as a stable and fighting mother, and she, really, was the
last person I'd have thought I'd hear what I did from... But yea, some
things change, for so many reasons, and have just as many outcomes.
I definitely do believe I got the better hand and really, I wouldn't change
a damn thing I had ever done, because I really do believe that if I had done
one thing different, nothing would be as it is right now.
Paul Fritz
<'Kate> wrote in message
news:557450huidimoerrb...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:38:28 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> <paulNOf...@voyager.net>
> an adult. She may be fertile but she is definitely not physically
> mature.
You haven't seen some of the 14 y.o. I have.....LOL
>
> 'Kate
Paul Fritz
<'Kate> wrote in message
news:0n74501tt60knb2h5...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:36:16 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> <paulNOf...@voyager.net>
> >
>
root
> >cause of it from an almost total rejection by her biological father.
>
I thought you were making a comment about my 'step-niece' not the OP, in
OP, the I think the root cause is being 'rejected' by BOTH parents.
>
> 'Kate
>
Paul Fritz
THe legal age depends on the state, but I agree with everything else.
> V
>
>
Paul Fritz
I don't think so, but often I am the first male adult that shows them any
attention, which is what makes them so vulnerable to jerks like the 19 y.o.
I try to keep a bit of distance by acting a bit of a sexist pig LOL.....
Some here will believe I don't have to act :-)
>
V
Me too. Here's to Canada! (I think about that South Park epsiode with the war
with Canda, gosh that show is bad, but it is hilarious)
V
V
"Paul Fritz" <paulfrit...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:10560rm...@corp.supernews.com...
Ahem.
I will plead the fifth.
V
V
there.
Oh well. I just "cyber smack" people. I wonder if I could get sued for
damaged..mmm..
V
=~{}~HäñK~{}~=
Hmmmmmm well I agree with fitz, The surest way to deal with stuff like this
is force. If your not up to it find somebody who is and pay them. See how
predatory the little pervert is with a broken arm, after all, he will hardly
go to the cops with his track record. For some folks its all they
understand, unfortunatly, IMHO very effective though.
HanK
Bebelestrnge
>From: "=~{}~HäńK~{}~=" what...@nospammam.com
>Date: 3/22/2004 7:10 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <405ed7aa$0$3457$afc3...@news.ukonline.co.uk>
I would like to hire you both to beat the shit out of my 32 year old step son .
As hard as that is to say it is harder dealing with what he did.We haven't been
to court yet, sometime in April it goes to trial, the creep was in jail most of
his life (Gayles son) He comes back two years after she died and proceeds to
get my daughter (15 yr. old ) drunk (o.k.) yes I am sure she didn't mind that
part, but she had been clean for some time prior to this,happened back in
Jan.2003( just a few months before she got pregnant) he then proceeded to grope
and molest her with his hands telling her it was o.k. they weren't blood
related. Hello ass**** she is 15 you are 32 and your mother would beat your ass
with a bat for this and you know it.creep. Yes , if only I could get violent
enough to do what I would of done to any other slime ball that did this. His
sister caught him and this is how it ended up in court I had all the proof I
needed to believe he tried to assault her as he of course is claiming, "she
seduced me"Again Ass**** HOW OLD ARE YOU? Makes me sick
Bev
>HanK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Daniel
didn't cut). What I'm saying is that she knows full well the consiquences
of having kids at a young age & also if you're not able to care for them or
for any reason they are taken from you or given up (between people she knows
& us & our mother) but she continues to go down this path anyway. So as I
said, that type of talk doesnt work for her, she knows what can happen but
chooses to continue anyway.
I talked to her last night & she agreed with me on allot of things (all of
which she wanted to talk to me about).
xkatx
> I don't see what you're so upset about what I've said here (in the text
you
> didn't cut). What I'm saying is that she knows full well the consiquences
> of having kids at a young age & also if you're not able to care for them
or
> for any reason they are taken from you or given up (between people she
knows
> & us & our mother) but she continues to go down this path anyway. So as I
> said, that type of talk doesnt work for her, she knows what can happen but
> chooses to continue anyway.
I cut text that wasn't relevant to anything that I was going to reply to.
It's called snipping, and it's a good idea when not responding to an entire
whack of text, and helps to keep messages down in size.
> I talked to her last night & she agreed with me on allot of things (all of
> which she wanted to talk to me about).
Yes, I've read that, and I do agree with what Joelle said about letting her
express herself. She may have agreed with you, but really, is that what you
really want? She may be trying to act like a big person and she may believe
on the outside that she maybe even IS an adult, but deep down, she is a
child, and I have no doubt in my mind that she knows that, even without
knowing all of the story and without ever meeting her.
At that age, kids often agree. I doubt there's a 13, 14 or 15 year old who
has not agreed with an authority figure just to get by. Even now, I find
that sometimes it's just easier to agree with someone (my own parents, my
aunts, uncles, whatever) just to end a conversation, or move on, even when I
either know or just feel I am right.
Daniel
of
> > which she wanted to talk to me about).
>
> Yes, I've read that, and I do agree with what Joelle said about letting
her
> express herself. She may have agreed with you, but really, is that what
you
> really want? She may be trying to act like a big person and she may
believe
> on the outside that she maybe even IS an adult, but deep down, she is a
> child, and I have no doubt in my mind that she knows that, even without
> knowing all of the story and without ever meeting her.
> At that age, kids often agree. I doubt there's a 13, 14 or 15 year old
who
> has not agreed with an authority figure just to get by. Even now, I find
> that sometimes it's just easier to agree with someone (my own parents, my
> aunts, uncles, whatever) just to end a conversation, or move on, even when
I
> either know or just feel I am right.
>
point any more. At times she acted almost as if she was told to say what she
said (& possibly to believe it?). Her points were not valid ones & as soon
as I explained to her why that was, she appeared to accept it & understand
it, more like she was actually looking for an explination of why those
thoughts were invalid.
xkatx
'Think' is the key word in your first sentence. How long ago were you a 14
year old girl in her shoes? Maybe she was told what to say, and maybe she
wasn't. That is not something you can jump to conclusions on. You need to
get on her level and understand her. By saying that her points were not
valid not only makes me believe that you were not listening to her, but also
that everything she said, be it what she was told to say or what she came up
with herself, you shot down in her face. Whatever she said, scripted or
not, was either something that she felt or believed, or just needed to say,
and you did take everything that she said and find a way to tell her she was
totally wrong and on a totally different level of reality. You may not have
outwardly said something like, "Girl, quit flying high! That's not how it
is!!" but even trying to justify your actions, real or not, you were, as you
said yourself, making her words invalid.
I personally know by shooting her feelings or thoughts down will get you
nowhere. You may not do it intentionally, but I do believe that you are
going to push her further away from you, and that is not something you want,
I'm sure, just based on how much you've expressed you love your sister and
worry for her.
Talk to her, but let her talk, no matter how wrong you think she is. Right
now, I'm sure she has it in her mind that you are all wrong, and YES, I can
almost guarantee that she feels like you are putting down her emotions, even
though she might not be able to say that to you.
Again, do what you want or need or feel you need to do. I'm sure you'll
come up with an excuse that she is wrong, but right now, one of the worst
things you could do is confirm to her that she is totally wrong about
everything. Let her talk, get on her level, don't try and bring her to your
level of understanding because that just won't work.
V
"Daniel" <daniel_h_wATyyahooDOTccom> wrote in message
news:VMydnTNOb_J...@giganews.com...
> of
> > > which she wanted to talk to me about).
> >
tuck nip.
Daniel what about a high school guidance counselor? There is also lots of
books available. I went to Books a Million and found a lot on books for and
about teens. Ophelia Complex, etc. Just go to the store and ask the clerk or
browse the web. You can listen to it in the car or whatever if your time is
limited.
V