OT: The Philadelphia Story

[Lubow]

So I'm at Nathan's in Westbury yesterday enjoying the Senior Citizens
Wednesday discount when ESPN pops up on the store's TV showing fans' choice
of the greatest ten athletes to play for a Philly team. Seems fans have
very short memories, particularly Philadelphia fans. How can any such list
not include the three time MVP, ol' Double-X Jimmy Foxx?

This would be my list for the best ten in no specific order

Wilt Chamberlain
Julius Erving
Alan Iverson
Bobby Clarke
Richie Ashburn
Mike Schmidt
Jimmy Foxx
Chuck Bednarik
Tommy McDonald
Steve Van Buren

[Minnesota Fats]

Here's some more Philly greats: Robin Roberts, a HOF right-hander; Paul Arizin, a deadly jump-shot artist from the old days; Bernie Parent, a Stanley Cup goal-tender.

[Lubow]

"Minnesota Fats" wrote in message
news:f6b007f0-7145-4530...@googlegroups.com...

Very good! Maybe pull out Tommy McDonald and replace him with Bernie Parent
to have more hockey representation in the 10 best list. Didn't Parent play
with Bobby Orr on the Niagara Falls Flyers?

[Minnesota Fats]

I looked them up. Bernie Parent was listed, but Bobby Orr wasn't, so I looked up Bobby Orr. He played minor league hockey with the Oshawa Generals, an affiliate of the Boston Bruins.

[number6]

You left out Philadelphia's most beloved and best athlete ever ... Rocky Balboa
They even have his statue on display ...

And don't give me any nonsense that he wasn't real ... They said the same thing
about the tooth fairy ... but there was always money under my pillow ...

[DoctorElefant]

Though Philly did have their fair share of non-fiction boxing champs. To name a few: Joe Frazier, Bennie Briscoe, Harold Johnson, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Bernard Hopkins and (Brooklyn transplant) Joey Giardello.

--------------------------------------------------
DocE


"The future ain't what it used to be." -Yogi Berra
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[Nelson]

6...wait a minute.....i want to make sure I'm understanding you....are you claiming Chuck Wepner was a philly guy?

[Lubow]

"number6" wrote in message
news:755da12c-5652-4656...@googlegroups.com...

> You left out Philadelphia's most beloved and best athlete ever ... Rocky
> Balboa They even have his statue on display ...
>
>And don't give me any nonsense that he wasn't real ... They said the same
>thing about the tooth fairy ... but there was always money under my pillow
>...

Yes... as real as Ralph Kramden whose likeness is harbored in a statue at
the PA Bus Terminal.

The Double-X story is interesting because it remotely relates to NFL issues.
Foxx, a two time MVP, won the triple crown, three time HR champ, one time
batting champ, two time RBI champ, was SOLD by Connie Mack to the Red Sox to
save the A's franchise in Philly. In Boston, Foxx was named MVP, HR champ,
RBI champ and batting champ.

[Minnesota Fats]

He wasn't a champ, but Rocky Castellani was a good one. Lost a middleweight title bout to Bobo Olson. He was a Pennsy native, but he lived for several years in Margate, which qualified him for the NJ Hall of Fame.

[DoctorElefant]

> He wasn't a champ, but Rocky Castellani was a good one. Lost a middleweight title bout to Bobo Olson. He was a Pennsy native, but he lived for several years in Margate, which qualified him for the NJ Hall of Fame.

Rocky Castellani must have been good. This is from his obit:

"Perhaps his best known fight came against the great Sugar Ray Robinson in 1955, a fight in which he put Robinson on the canvass for a controversial eight count. Many boxing scholars believed Castellani actually won the fight by knockout only to officially lose by split decision."

[Minnesota Fats]

Another Italian Stallion together with Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano and Rocky Marciano.

[number6]

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 11:58:54 AM UTC-4, Nelson wrote:

> > You left out Philadelphia's most beloved and best athlete ever ... Rocky Balboa
> > They even have his statue on display ...
> >
> > And don't give me any nonsense that he wasn't real ... They said the same thing
> > about the tooth fairy ... but there was always money under my pillow ...
>
> 6...wait a minute.....i want to make sure I'm understanding you....are you claiming Chuck Wepner was a philly guy?

Nah ... he was the tooth fairy ...

[DoctorElefant]

Fats, I knew about those guys, but not about Rocky Castellani.

There's another good Italian boxing champ I recently learned about: Willie Pastrano.

A while back I was watching the first Liston vs. Clay bout on Youtube. During the introductions, which included visits by Marciano and Joe Louis, they had the reigning Light Heavyweight Champion wish the fighters good luck.

The ring announcer called him "the dancing master" and the TV announcer said, "Willie Pastrano, who boxes an awful lot like Cassius Clay."

I decided to look this guy up. Sure enough, Pastrano was trained by Angelo Dundee and was the first pro who had ever sparred with Clay, when Clay was still a teenager and begging Dundee to teach him how to go pro. Maybe Pastrano taught Clay something about moving around the ring? Their styles were *very* similar.

Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czBnNDb3lXc

[Minnesota Fats]

This thread started with Lub discussing Philly greats and we've come down to Italian boxers. Only on this NG.

Here's two more: Willie Pep, born Guglielmo Papaleo, considered to be the greatest-ever featherweight champ; Carmen Basilio, former welterweight and middleweight champ.

[number6]

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 6:42:30 PM UTC-4, Minnesota Fats wrote:
Carmen Basilio, former welterweight and middleweight champ.

My memories of him are with blood streaming all over his face ... but still
winning the fight ...
I wonder though who first got his name wrong and feminized his birth name Carmine ...

[DoctorElefant]

Yeah, when I saw the 2 Carmine Basilio vs. Ray Robinson bouts on ESPN Classics, I wondered if Sly Stallone had used those matches as models for his Rocky-Apollo movie fights. They really beat the daylights out of each other. Also, Basilio was Welterweight champ, while Robinson was Middleweight champ, so Basilio really pulled off an upset when he beat a legend and the bigger fighter for the Middleweight title. The rematch went to Robinson, but it was extremely close again. Both were bloody split decisions.

[Minnesota Fats]

Your reference to bloody fights, Doc, evokes memories of Rocky Graziano and Tony Zale, three of the bloodiest fights ever. They pounded each other mercilessly. Neither one was ever the same again. They both retired shortly after they were through with each other.

[DoctorElefant]

Fats, wasn't the second bout the one in which the corner men cut opened Rocky Graziano's swollen eyelid so he could see and then he went on to knock out Zale? Stallone definitely borrowed that cutting event for his Rocky.

[DoctorElefant]

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 6:04:25 PM UTC-5, number6 wrote:

> I wonder though who first got his name wrong and feminized his birth name Carmine ...

That might explain why Basilio was such a tough guy, sort of like Johnny Cash's "A Boy Named Sue."

[Lubow]

"Minnesota Fats" wrote in message

news:ac1afb8e-628b-4f66...@googlegroups.com...

> This thread started with Lub discussing Philly greats and we've come down
> to Italian boxers. Only on this NG.

Can I start a thread or can I start a thread? (paraphrasing Pierce Brosnan
to Rene Russo in the Thomas Crown Affair, "Do you want to dance or do you
want to dance?")

>Here's two more: Willie Pep, born Guglielmo Papaleo, considered to be the
>greatest-ever featherweight champ; Carmen Basilio, former welterweight and
>middleweight champ.

In the 1960s Rocky Marciano hosted a show of his favorite fight films. One
show was dedicated to the Willie Pep/Sandy Sadler battles of the early
1950s. Even though I saw that show fifty years ago, the Pep/Sandler matchups
are still lodged in my memory.

Here's the incomparable Johnny Addie announcing a 1951 Pep/Sadler battle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpKHFZ6ixKs

[DoctorElefant]

Thanks, Professor. That was a wild sequence when the ref hit the deck.

[Lubow]

"DoctorElefant" wrote in message
news:010ab693-bfb1-4bff...@googlegroups.com...

>>
>> In the 1960s Rocky Marciano hosted a show of his favorite fight films.
>> One show was dedicated to the Willie Pep/Sandy Sadler battles of the
>> early 1950s. Even though I saw that show fifty years ago, the Pep/Sandler
>> matchups are still lodged in my memory.
>>

>> Here's the incomparable Johnny Addie announcing the last Pep/Saddler
>> battle at MSG in 1951

>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpKHFZ6ixKs

>Thanks, Professor. That was a wild sequence when the ref hit the deck.

That was the ONLY bout in which Pep was stopped and the last of the
Pep/Saddler grudge fights.

Here's 39,000 fans at Yankee Stadium for a 1950 Pep/Saddler match. Yes, a
FEATHERWEIGHT bout at Yankee Stadium! That's how the Pep/Saddler rivalry
captured the public's attention in the postwar era of 1948-51.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9QB6HVTndw

[Minnesota Fats]

You got that right, Doc. Rocky's cut man was Whitey Bimstein, a veteran boxing pro. It was in Chicago because Rocky's boxing license had been suspended in NY. That fight is generally regarded as one of the greatest fights ever.

Graziano and Zale were both devastating punchers, but with one difference--Zale was mean, Rocky wasn't.

[DoctorElefant]

You guys are gonna flip.

So last night I decided to watch some of my "The Honeymooners Lost Episodes" collection. I randomly pulled out one of the 15 disks and turn it on. A 1953 episode I never saw before comes on: "Two Tickets To The Fight."

Ralph and Norton are all excited because Norton scored two ringside seats at The Garden to see this boxer they are crazy about. They refer to him as "Carmine" and they say he's going to win and thus get a title shot.

Ralph says, "You know, just think, we're going to be sitting in the first row. We'll be sitting amongst all the fight celebrities! Marciano... Jake La Motta... Rocky Graziano... La Starza... Carminotti... Giardello... Boy!"

Norton says, "What a spot for a pizzeria."

[Lubow]

"DoctorElefant" wrote in message
news:ee76daac-33cc-48a0...@googlegroups.com...

> Graziano and Zale were both devastating punchers, but with one
> difference--Zale was mean, Rocky wasn't.

>You guys are gonna flip.

>So last night I decided to watch some of my "The Honeymooners Lost
>Episodes" collection. I randomly pulled out one of the 15 disks and turn it
>on. A 1953 episode I never saw before comes on: "Two Tickets To The Fight."

>Ralph and Norton are all excited because Norton scored two ringside seats
>at The Garden to see this boxer they are crazy about. They refer to him as
>"Carmine" and they say he's going to win and thus get a title shot.

>Ralph says, "You know, just think, we're going to be sitting in the first
>row. We'll be sitting amongst all the fight celebrities! Marciano... Jake
>La Motta... Rocky Graziano... La Starza... Carminotti... Giardello... Boy!"

>Norton says, "What a spot for a pizzeria."

Very progressive (in a chronological sense) looking writers... In 1953 the
only pizzeria I knew was the L&B on 86th Street, Brooklyn and it was (and
is) more known for its homemade spumoni.

http://www.nycgo.com/images/uploadedimages/devnycvisitcom/articles/lbspumonigardens_v1_460x285.jpg

[DoctorElefant]

L&B makes terrific pizza.

[Minnesota Fats]

Roland La Starza, the Bronx Butcher Boy. In '50, he fought Marciano in a non-title bout, went the distance, but lost a in a split decision--the closest anyone ever came to beating him.

[Nelson]

Guys......I LOVED going through boxing history in this thread. I thought I was pretty knowledgeable about the era, but just like Doc, even though I recognize virtually every name, Rocky castellini just doesn't ring a bell at all.
To me, the other thing about boxing discussions that's interesting in terms of then vs now is that you CAN compare apples and apples in terms of size/weight. Any such "then vs now" discussion about football pretty much ends with the thought of the 240 lb linemen from the 60's Packers' teams trying to block today's 320 lb D linemen.

[DoctorElefant]

I wasn't familiar with Rocky Castellani until Fats mentioned him. I also wasn't familiar with Willie Pastrano until fairly recently.

Researching Pastrano was interesting for a couple of reasons. The first was his dancing style, much like that of Ali.

The second was his sense of humor. After a rough exchange with the contender in a 1965 fight, the ref asked, "Do you know where you are, Champ?"

"Yeah," Pastrano answered. "I'm in Madison Square Garden... getting the shit beat out of me!"

Seems he was also another one of those guys who could've been even better, but he liked the drugs and booze better than the gym.

[Minnesota Fats]

Nel . . .any discussion of then vs. now in boxing, reminds me of the speculation of how Ali would have fared against Rocky Marciano and Jow Louis.

The general consensus among the boxing pros who saw Marciano and Louis in their primes was that they both would have beaten Ali--Marciano, because Ali would not have withstood his sledgehammer blows, and Louis, because Ali could not have danced fast enough to escape Joe's hand speed.

[number6]

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 1:49:17 PM UTC-4, Minnesota Fats wrote:

> The general consensus among the boxing pros who saw Marciano and Louis in their primes was that they both would have beaten Ali--Marciano, because Ali would not have withstood his sledgehammer blows, and Louis, because Ali could not have danced fast enough to escape Joe's hand speed.

The Superfight: Marciano vs. Ali

On January 20, 1970, the fight was shown only once in 1500 theaters over closed-circuit television in the United States, Canada, and throughout Europe. It grossed $5 million. The computer had determined that Marciano would knock Ali out in the 13th round and the film was edited to present that outcome. All prints of the fight except one were supposed to be immediately destroyed. However, many theaters played the show long after January 20.

However ... they covered themselves with this in case the computer went otherwise ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDP41oh7nN0

There was a lot of controversy with the whole series of fights ... Doc's usually good
at summarizing things ...

[DoctorElefant]

Angelo Dundee said they used the alternate ending when it was shown in Europe.

Muhammed Ali, who liked to say he would've licked Louis, said something different when the topic was Marciano. He mentioned the computer fight too in this clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaw2QFC1Qg

[Nelson]

Fats.............years ago, I remember someone....I don't think it as Bert Sugar but I could be wrong..... speculating about an Ali-Marciano fight. The one point he made was that (despite the fact that George Foreman was a HELL of a puncher in his own right), if Ali had tried the rope a dope thing with Rocky, just leaning against the ropes trying to cover up while letting Rocky hit him, the best case scenario for Ali was that he wouldn't be able to raise him arms at all and the worst case was that one or both arms would have been broken.
On a side note, although Ali was clearly ONE of the best ever and was almost certainly the most graceful heavy weight ever, I always considered the Foreman fight to be a bit of a black mark AGAINST the Ali legend. Props to him (or Dundee) for coming up with what was obviously a clever strategy.....but........there is (or at least WAS) a certain mystique to being the baddest man on the planet and whenever you get into a discussion as to who was the best EVER, you have to believe that, if someone would have pulled Dempsey, Louis or Maricano aside and told them "Ok...here's what you're going to do. Stand there in the corner cowering and covering yourself as best you can until your opponent is so tired from hitting you that he can be taken out", any of them would have told the person to take a flying leap.

[Minnesota Fats]

You're right about Burt Sugar, Nel.

Ali was a very unconventional heavyweight in that he didn't have explosive KO power, and his style was that of a counter-puncher. He let his opponent punch himself out and then he'd take over in the late rounds--jab, jab, jab, until his opponent's tank was empty. Because of his style, he took a lot of punches over his career and, sadly, he's paying a price for it in his later years.

[DoctorElefant]

George Foreman later complained that Angelo Dundee loosened the ropes before the "Rumble in the Jungle."

Dundee said the ropes arrived four feet too long. He said that on the day before the fight, he actually cut them to fit and that they were tight, but then the heat loosened them overnight.

Anyway, they were loose.

[DoctorElefant]

Ali also got away from the dancing style at some point and started to rely more on holding and leaning against the ropes. Fighting in close quarters with the many knockout artists of the heavyweight division was really taking a chance with his wellbeing. Like all of the all-time greats, he could really take a punch. Perhaps he relied on that asset too much over the long run?

[Nelson]

Doc......I'll definitely give Ali credit for having a great chin. As for your other post regarding the ring ropes, in addition to those (potential) issues, weren't they also staging the fight at something like 3 in the morning? I was always curious to see if Ali could have beaten Big George in a rematch, under more normal circumstances, but George never got the chance.

[DoctorElefant]

There were lots of oddities involved in that matchup, Nelson. The location. The time. The ring. The ropes. Even though George was champ, the challenger seemed to have the advantages. Still, it was a good fight up until the closing seconds of the 8th round, and they wasted no time counting George out.

Yes, it would've been fun to see a rematch or two, maybe one indoors, and away from Zaire, where George might've had something more going for him.

[Minnesota Fats]

Since we're tiptoeing down Memory Lane with heavyweight championship fights, here's another: Joe Louis-Jersey Joe Walcott, Dec. 5, 1947. Walcott knocked Louis down twice, and was the clear winner except in the opinion of the two judges. Referee Ruby Goldstein called it for Walcott, but Louis won by a split decision. Louis thought he had lost and couldn't believe it when the decision was announced. Walcott couldn't believe it, either.

[number6]

On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 8:30:01 PM UTC-4, Minnesota Fats wrote:

> Since we're tiptoeing down Memory Lane with heavyweight championship fights, here's another: Joe Louis-Jersey Joe Walcott, Dec. 5, 1947. Walcott knocked Louis down twice, and was the clear winner except in the opinion of the two judges. Referee Ruby Goldstein called it for Walcott, but Louis won by a split decision. Louis thought he had lost and couldn't believe it when the decision was announced. Walcott couldn't believe it, either.

My memory of Joe Louis was his being a greeter in Las Vegas broke because of
2 reasons ... his generousity and the IRS ... even returning to a high payday
in the ring couldn't overcome the 90 % incremental tax rate and the interest
and penalties that the IRS was adding to what he owed ...

[DoctorElefant]

A few years ago, I saw that match on a DVD. I think 2 rounds were missing. Unless Louis really amazed in those 2 missing rounds, it looked to me like Walcott should've gotten the decision.

I also saw footage of the rematch. Walcott was having another fine performance until he started shuffling as if to embarrass Louis. Louis responded by knocking out Walcott.

One thing for sure; they were both great talents.

[Minnesota Fats]

No secret that Joe Louis was a poor money manager. He was screwed by Mike Jacobs and his other handlers, and was used as a sugar daddy by his girl friends and ex-wives.

After the war, Max Schmeling was given a lucrative position as European spokesman for Coca Cola, while Joe was being crucified by IRS. He had to struggle in his later years and died broke.

He gave much more than what he received in return. It was a total disgrace.

[Lubow]

"Lubow" wrote in message news:nhk5sk$sj9$1...@dont-email.me...

>So I'm at Nathan's in Westbury yesterday enjoying the Senior Citizens
>Wednesday discount when ESPN pops up on the store's TV showing fans' choice
of the greatest ten athletes to play for a Philly team. Seems fans have
very short memories, particularly Philadelphia fans. How can any such list
not include the three time MVP, ol' Double-X Jimmy Foxx?

Here's a funny story about the Philadelphia Arena and the team funded by
coke.

[Lubow]

"Lubow" wrote in message news:ni61eh$sj9$1...@dont-email.me...

http://phillysportshistory.com/2011/06/21/the-short-lived-cocaine-funded-philadelphia-kings/

[DoctorElefant]

They even had Cazzie Russell.

[DoctorElefant]

I heard a lot about Max Schmeling over the years and it was good stuff. He and Joe Louis became friends and he helped Joe financially. He also defied the Nazis whenever he could.

More at the link here: http://www.auschwitz.dk/schmeling.htm

I like the point he made when discussing the second Louis fight years later...

“Looking back, I’m almost happy I lost that fight. Just imagine if I would have come back to Germany with a victory. I had nothing to do with the Nazis, but they would have given me a medal. After the war I might have been considered a war criminal.”

[Nelson]

Spinning this conversation in a completely different direction............if you ever spoke with any old timers (please insert gratuitous joke at Fats' expense here), the Louis-Schmeling fight was a MAJOR event with what many considered to have world wide implications. This made me think of 2 "somewhat" similar events in our lifetime.........the 80 Olympic Hockey team and the Fischer(spell?)-Spassky (also spell?) chess match. I was reliving those days in my mind recently after seeing the movie about the chess "event" (the exact name of the movie escapes me but it had the word "pawn" in it and starred Toby McGuire (spell?). Anyway.....I think that, in general, Americans had wildly different takes on "our" guys in those two events......the guys on the hockey team seemed to be absolute all American boys next door, often with very compelling stories. it is virtually impossible not to still love those guys, 36 years later. As for Fischer, I think we all pulled for him to beat that dastardly Russian.....but, at the same time, we were quietly saying to ourselves "damn, this guy is a MASSIVE dick" ( I might add that, in his later years, Fischer who, of course was Jewish himself, ended up being an unhinged anti Semite.I personally wrote him off for good with those blistering comments he made about Jerry Koosman)

[Minnesota Fats]

Schmeling took a bum rap because the Nazis portrayed him as some kind of Aryan Superman. I knew he despised Hitler and the Nazis, but I didn't realize until reading his bio that he risked his life by hiding two Jewish children in his apartment. You don't have to be Jewish to regard him as a hero.

[DoctorElefant]

Nelson, you just took this discussion from boxing to chess and then to Jerry Koosman. But, since Kooz pitched for the Phillies at the end of his career, I guess you somehow got us back onto the original topic. Nice work.

[jeffg...@webtv.net]

Doc, Joni Mitchell calls that "The Circle Game".

[Nelson]

Doc...yup..that's exactly what I was thinking!