Kobe's mental set
RMJon23
did. (Has he EVER read a media guide? Esp the section that shows you
how to pronounce names? Sasha Voo-YAW-shick? What a chronically
overpaid tool...)
A reversion to the Laker's Fugly game: It seemed like SEA had about 30
dunks, tip-ins, back-doors, or simple lay-ups...
But I've rarely seen Kobe so OFF mentally. Even when he's cold in the
first half and complaining about missed calls he usually maintains and
eventually heats up. This game I knew he wouldn't get it together to a
Kobe-level. He just looked exasperated. I think Ray Allen may be The
nemesis for Kobe. There's a lot of bad blood between them, clearly. I
think Ray Allen might be the only guy in the NBA who can do a head-trip
number on Kobe...or that Kobe allows to get into his head. If so, why
is this? Does anyone remember if Allen said anything particularly
incendiary surrounding Kobe's problems w/the alleged Eagle,CO Incident?
brink
"RMJon23" <rmj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142214062....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I watched the game w/the sound off. I don't like Burnt Hamburger; never
> did. (Has he EVER read a media guide? Esp the section that shows you
> how to pronounce names? Sasha Voo-YAW-shick? What a chronically
> overpaid tool...)
That was pretty unprofessional, I agree.
> A reversion to the Laker's Fugly game: It seemed like SEA had about 30
> dunks, tip-ins, back-doors, or simple lay-ups...
Funny, it's exactly how the Lakers beat the Spurs the other night. They
owned the paint...
brink
MB
RMJon23 wrote:
> I watched the game w/the sound off. I don't like Burnt Hamburger; never
> did. (Has he EVER read a media guide? Esp the section that shows you
> how to pronounce names? Sasha Voo-YAW-shick? What a chronically
> overpaid tool...)
"Kobe played 12 minutes and 18 seconds in that first quarter... "
> A reversion to the Laker's Fugly game: It seemed like SEA had about 30
> dunks, tip-ins, back-doors, or simple lay-ups...
>
> But I've rarely seen Kobe so OFF mentally. Even when he's cold in the
> first half and complaining about missed calls he usually maintains and
> eventually heats up. This game I knew he wouldn't get it together to a
> Kobe-level. He just looked exasperated. I think Ray Allen may be The
> nemesis for Kobe. There's a lot of bad blood between them, clearly. I
> think Ray Allen might be the only guy in the NBA who can do a head-trip
> number on Kobe...or that Kobe allows to get into his head. If so, why
> is this? Does anyone remember if Allen said anything particularly
> incendiary surrounding Kobe's problems w/the alleged Eagle,CO Incident?
You may be right about Allen and Kobe. I don't know if Ray chimed in
on the Colorado thing, but he did pile it on famously with regard to
Kobe playing without Shaq.
Generally, Kobe seemed to be PMS-ing throughout the whole game, and
unfortunately he seemed to not just take it out on the refs and his
teammates, but on the rim and backboard as well.
MB
RMJon23 wrote:
> I watched the game w/the sound off. I don't like Burnt Hamburger; never
> did. (Has he EVER read a media guide? Esp the section that shows you
> how to pronounce names? Sasha Voo-YAW-shick? What a chronically
> overpaid tool...)
"Kobe played 12 minutes and 18 seconds in that first quarter... "
> A reversion to the Laker's Fugly game: It seemed like SEA had about 30
> dunks, tip-ins, back-doors, or simple lay-ups...
>
> But I've rarely seen Kobe so OFF mentally. Even when he's cold in the
> first half and complaining about missed calls he usually maintains and
> eventually heats up. This game I knew he wouldn't get it together to a
> Kobe-level. He just looked exasperated. I think Ray Allen may be The
> nemesis for Kobe. There's a lot of bad blood between them, clearly. I
> think Ray Allen might be the only guy in the NBA who can do a head-trip
> number on Kobe...or that Kobe allows to get into his head. If so, why
> is this? Does anyone remember if Allen said anything particularly
> incendiary surrounding Kobe's problems w/the alleged Eagle,CO Incident?
You may be right about Allen and Kobe. I don't know if Ray chimed in
RMJon23
>"Kobe played 12 minutes and 18 seconds in that first quarter... "<
Good call, MB. I was watching it w/the sound ON when he said that. I'm
sitting by myself, and Hamburger says that and I said to myself, "Holy
shit. I've got better things to do than listen to this
less-than-mediocre jackass. I learn other things about the game by
watching with the sound off, and now's as good a time as any...I sit
there and noodle on my guitar throughout the game, my eyes glued to the
sad game...
Yichen
say they are not consistent.
RMJon23
>anyway, not every night the Lakers play like this night. We only may
say they are not consistent.<
The Lakers seem quite consistent to me...in their maddening
INCONSISTENCY!
-rmjon23
The preceding statement was false. The following statement might be
true.
George Evans
rmj...@aol.com wrote on 3/12/06 5:41 PM:
> But I've rarely seen Kobe so OFF mentally. Even when he's cold in the
> first half and complaining about missed calls he usually maintains and
> eventually heats up. This game I knew he wouldn't get it together to a
> Kobe-level. He just looked exasperated. I think Ray Allen may be The
> nemesis for Kobe. There's a lot of bad blood between them, clearly. I
> think Ray Allen might be the only guy in the NBA who can do a head-trip
> number on Kobe...or that Kobe allows to get into his head. If so, why
> is this? Does anyone remember if Allen said anything particularly
> incendiary surrounding Kobe's problems w/the alleged Eagle,CO Incident?
I said this in another thread and I'll say it here. I think some officials
think Kobe is guilty and are administering their own vigilante justice
consciously or unconsciously. Even if this is not true it could appear that
way to Kobe.
George Evans
Terraholm
And you said the evidence was he did not get calls. I answered at 11 he gets more FT attempts than
all except 2 players (they get about 1 more per 2 games) and 2 more per game than Jordan did in his
last year with the bulls. In the game at Portland he shot 15 FTs and still whined on every play. At
least twice he stayed back to argue while his team played 4 on 5.
If they wanted to punish him they would call the well deserved Ts the last several games and get him
suspended.
--
Laurel T
"Superstar- A player who hears what he
doesn't want to hear, sees what he doesn't
want to see, and does what he doesn't want to do"
-Unknown
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 6:58 AM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 1142214062....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>> RMJon23 at rmj...@aol.com wrote on 3/12/06 5:41 PM:
>>
>>> But I've rarely seen Kobe so OFF mentally. Even when he's cold in the first
>>> half and complaining about missed calls he usually maintains and eventually
>>> heats up. This game I knew he wouldn't get it together to a Kobe-level. He
>>> just looked exasperated. I think Ray Allen may be The nemesis for Kobe.
>>> There's a lot of bad blood between them, clearly. I think Ray Allen might be
>>> the only guy in the NBA who can do a head-trip number on Kobe...or that Kobe
>>> allows to get into his head. If so, why is this? Does anyone remember if
>>> Allen said anything particularly incendiary surrounding Kobe's problems
>>> w/the alleged Eagle,CO Incident?
>>>
>> I said this in another thread and I'll say it here. I think some officials
>> think Kobe is guilty and are administering their own vigilante justice
>> consciously or unconsciously. Even if this is not true it could appear that
>> way to Kobe.
>>
> And you said the evidence was he did not get calls. I answered at 11 he gets
> more FT attempts than all except 2 players (they get about 1 more per 2 games)
> and 2 more per game than Jordan did in his last year with the bulls. In the
> game at Portland he shot 15 FTs and still whined on every play. At least twice
> he stayed back to argue while his team played 4 on 5.
I don't care how many calls have come before. A bad call is a bad call.
There have been many comments from players that they would take illegal
action before they let Kobe have a high scoring game on them. Just because
Kobe is an out-of-sight scoring machine doesn't mean others should be
allowed to escalate the severity of their hitting to stop him. Wouldn't you
agree?
> If they wanted to punish him they would call the well deserved Ts the last
> several games and get him suspended.
Your only argument seems to be that officials are unfair but fairly unfair.
Who regulates these guys?
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 47o429F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 6:58 AM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>> I said this in another thread and I'll say it here. I think some
>>> officials think Kobe is guilty and are administering their own
>>> vigilante justice consciously or unconsciously. Even if this is not
>>> true it could appear that way to Kobe.
>>>
>> And you said the evidence was he did not get calls. I answered at 11
>> he gets more FT attempts than all except 2 players (they get about 1
>> more per 2 games) and 2 more per game than Jordan did in his last
>> year with the bulls. In the game at Portland he shot 15 FTs and
>> still whined on every play. At least twice he stayed back to argue
>> while his team played 4 on 5.
>
> I don't care how many calls have come before. A bad call is a bad
> call.
The subject is about Kobe's mindset. If this game you claim he was whining because he was not
getting calls... why was he whining just as much in a game he got tons of calls?
>There have been many comments from players that they would take
> illegal action before they let Kobe have a high scoring game on them.
And so you whine if the lakers big men make guards pay for getting in the paint?
> Just because Kobe is an out-of-sight scoring machine doesn't mean
> others should be allowed to escalate the severity of their hitting to
> stop him. Wouldn't you agree?
If it is a flagrant call one.
>
>> If they wanted to punish him they would call the well deserved Ts
>> the last several games and get him suspended.
>
> Your only argument seems to be that officials are unfair but fairly
> unfair.
You want to put a few more stakes in that strawman see if you can get it to stand up?
>Who regulates these guys?
They regulate themselves under the league. They are training constantly. They have reams of
interpretations of the rules to learn. Every tape is studied, even at the half. They write a report
on every game. Senior retired refs are in the stands grading them. They get fines and suspensions if
they really screw up. They under review get at least 92% of calls right. If they do not meet that
standard they get fired.
--
Laurel T
"I think somebody even got bit out there
a couple of times."
Raja Bell asked how physical was
a Mavs/blazers game
Terraholm
>> If they wanted to punish him they would call the well deserved Ts
>> the last several games and get him suspended.
>
> Your only argument seems to be that officials are unfair but fairly
> unfair. Who regulates these guys?
>
NBA officials are evaluated by Jackson, the league's supervisor of officials, staff observers and
coaches and general managers. http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/0715/1406053.html
(The bottom % are subject to firing withiout legal or union recourse.)
Dick Bavetta on Wednesday night will call the 2,135th game of his 31-year career as an NBA referee,
surpassing Jake O'Donnell.
Q: How much has officiating changed during your career?
A: Where it has changed is in the accountability and the scrutiny that we're now under. We carry a
BlackBerrry. We have a laptop. We do daily testing. We do daily meetings. We do tape sessions. After
the game, we're required to go back to our hotel and watch the same game we just refereed and submit
a game report, submit a game summary, which is inclusive of critical plays in the game, pertinent
plays, plays that we were not satisfied with. Years ago, that never happened. Maybe when you got
around to it you put a handwritten report in an envelope. That generally only took place if there
was a problem in the game.
http://www.sportingnews.com/exclusives/20050314/607149.html
The reality: There is no statistical evidence of a star system in the current NBA. Factoring in how
often players are statistically credited with touching the ball, Danny Fortson actually gets to the
free throw line more frequently than anyone in the league. Dwight Howard, a rookie, shoots free
throws more often per touch than two-time MVP Tim Duncan. Antonio Daniels gets a higher percentage
of favorable calls than teammate Ray Allen. Even Austin Croshere outdoes LeBron James when it comes
to free throw frequency.
"There are a couple of things to remember with star players," Nunn says. "One is they are stars for
a reason, and that's because they have tremendous ability. When you have tremendous ability,
sometimes the only thing a defender can do is foul you. The other thing to remember is that they
have the ball a lot more. So it might look like they get to the line more than everyone else, but
that's only because the ball is in their hands."
There's a deeper reason NBA refs shun a star system -- officials employing such a system soon would
be out of jobs. Every game a ref works is subject to four levels of scrutiny. First, the ref watches
a tape of the game and reports missed calls. Second, a "standard observer" watches each game at the
arena, then reviews a tape and files a second report on missed calls. Third, Nunn has four
assistants who monitor 15 referees each -- those assistants also review missed calls. Finally, there
is Nunn himself. The referees are given accuracy scores based on their missed calls.
When referees are graded, there is no weight given to the players they are officiating. If a ref
favored a star player, that ref's accuracy score would plummet. Nunn, who was named director of
officials before last season, has made it his goal to make officiating more scientific, and the
grading system is part of that.
"In the past, refereeing was done a lot by feel," Nunn says. "So, maybe in the past, you could have
star players who got more calls. But in our league, right now, it's a myth. We are getting this down
to right and wrong. No gray area. I want night and day, not dusk."
Despite the opinion of players who are neck-deep in the star system myth, Nunn has been successful.
When he took over, he estimates the league's refs had an accuracy rate of 90 percent. Now, the refs
are, on average, "between 94 and 95 percent," Nunn says.
Nunn even has -- gasp! -- gotten praise from well-known ref critic Mark Cuban, owner of the
Mavericks. "Things have really gotten better since Ronnie Nunn took over," Cuban said in an e-mail.
"This past year has definitely been an improvement and has shown an effort to call the games by the
book."
NBA refs are not perfect, and they never will be. "We're going to get some things wrong," Nunn says.
"But people need to be better educated on the subject before they start in with things that are just
false. Players, coaches, the media, everyone. You have a right to complain when we get something
wrong, but not when these complaints are based on myths."
All Nunn has to do is convince 30 coaches, more than 400 players, thousands of media members and
millions of NBA fans that he is right. Now, that is a tough call. TSN
=======================
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 7:24 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>> in article 47o429F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 6:58 AM:
>>
>>> George Evans wrote:
>
>>>> I said this in another thread and I'll say it here. I think some
>>>> officials think Kobe is guilty and are administering their own
>>>> vigilante justice consciously or unconsciously. Even if this is not
>>>> true it could appear that way to Kobe.
>>>>
>>> And you said the evidence was he did not get calls. I answered at 11
>>> he gets more FT attempts than all except 2 players (they get about 1
>>> more per 2 games) and 2 more per game than Jordan did in his last
>>> year with the bulls. In the game at Portland he shot 15 FTs and
>>> still whined on every play. At least twice he stayed back to argue
>>> while his team played 4 on 5.
>>
>> I don't care how many calls have come before. A bad call is a bad
>> call.
>
> The subject is about Kobe's mindset. If this game you claim he was whining
> because he was not
> getting calls... why was he whining just as much in a game he got tons of
> calls?
I don't think he does as a general rule.
>> There have been many comments from players that they would take
>> illegal action before they let Kobe have a high scoring game on them.
>
> And so you whine if the lakers big men make guards pay for getting in the
> paint?
You mean like the flagrant foul called on Odom a couple of game ago. When
you make a guard pay you get a foul called.
>> Just because Kobe is an out-of-sight scoring machine doesn't mean
>> others should be allowed to escalate the severity of their hitting to
>> stop him. Wouldn't you agree?
>
> If it is a flagrant call one.
I'm not talking about flagrant fouls on Kobe. I mean elbows to the ribs,
grabbing some jersey, bumping his head a little, slight undercuts. Pros know
how to bend the rules and if Kobe in on a roll and they get wind that you're
only going to call an average amount of fouls, they will beat him up.
>>> If they wanted to punish him they would call the well deserved Ts the last
>>> several games and get him suspended.
>>>
>> Your only argument seems to be that officials are unfair but fairly unfair.
>>
> You want to put a few more stakes in that strawman see if you can get it to
> stand up?
>
>> Who regulates these guys?
>>
> They regulate themselves under the league. They are training constantly. They
> have reams of interpretations of the rules to learn. Every tape is studied,
> even at the half. They write a report on every game. Senior retired refs are
> in the stands grading them. They get fines and suspensions if they really
> screw up. They under review get at least 92% of calls right. If they do not
> meet that standard they get fired.
I am pro law enforcement, too, but I tell my students that I will listen to
any complaint they have about mistreatment because I know there are always
some careful bad cops.
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 47pfq2F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 7:24 PM:
>> The subject is about Kobe's mindset. If this game you claim he was
>> whining because he was not
>> getting calls... why was he whining just as much in a game he got
>> tons of calls?
>
> I don't think he does as a general rule.
Has this year. He leads the legue in Ts.
Besides I was comparing 2 games. At Potland he shot 15 FTs and yet whined the whole game, to the
point it really hurt his team. He should have got a T.
>
>>> There have been many comments from players that they would take
>>> illegal action before they let Kobe have a high scoring game on
>>> them.
>>
>> And so you whine if the lakers big men make guards pay for getting
>> in the paint?
>
> You mean like the flagrant foul called on Odom a couple of game ago.
> When you make a guard pay you get a foul called.
I mean just what I said. Does not have anything to do with flagrant fouls.
>> Just because Kobe is an out-of-sight scoring machine doesn't mean
>>> others should be allowed to escalate the severity of their hitting
>>> to
>>> stop him. Wouldn't you agree?
>>
>> If it is a flagrant call one.
>
> I'm not talking about flagrant fouls on Kobe. I mean elbows to the
> ribs, grabbing some jersey, bumping his head a little, slight
> undercuts. Pros know how to bend the rules and if Kobe in on a roll
> and they get wind that you're only going to call an average amount of
> fouls, they will beat him up.
Contact is not nesessarily a foul and Kobe gives that type of contact too. If you want every
percieved foul called no matter the advantage then the opponent will be happy to have Kobe sitting
in foul trouble.
>
>>>> If they wanted to punish him they would call the well deserved Ts
>>>> the last several games and get him suspended.
>>>>
>>> Your only argument seems to be that officials are unfair but fairly
>>> unfair.
>>>
>> You want to put a few more stakes in that strawman see if you can
>> get it to stand up?
>>
>>> Who regulates these guys?
>>>
>> They regulate themselves under the league. They are training
>> constantly. They have reams of interpretations of the rules to
>> learn. Every tape is studied, even at the half. They write a report
>> on every game. Senior retired refs are in the stands grading them.
>> They get fines and suspensions if they really screw up. They under
>> review get at least 92% of calls right. If they do not meet that
>> standard they get fired.
>
> I am pro law enforcement, too, but I tell my students that I will
> listen to any complaint they have about mistreatment because I know
> there are always some careful bad cops.
Cops do not have 8 cameras aimed at them and a superviser taking notes every minute they work.
--
Laurel T
"A tough day at the office is even tougher
when your OFFICE contains spectator seating."
- Nik Posa
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/15/06 5:28 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 47pfq2F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 7:24 PM:
>
>>> The subject is about Kobe's mindset. If this game you claim he was whining
>>> because he was not getting calls... why was he whining just as much in a
>>> game he got tons of calls?
>>>
>> I don't think he does as a general rule.
>>
> Has this year. He leads the legue in Ts. Besides I was comparing 2 games. At
> Potland he shot 15 FTs and yet whined the whole game, to the point it really
> hurt his team. He should have got a T.
>
You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be happy
with them. The league's biggest scoring threat should logically be getting
the *most* FTAs. I don't see any reason that, in a season when he is making
record after record in scoring, that he shouldn't be making record after
record in FTAs, unless you think the league just backs away in homage.
>>> And so you whine if the lakers big men make guards pay for getting
>>> in the paint?
>>
>> You mean like the flagrant foul called on Odom a couple of game ago.
>> When you make a guard pay you get a foul called.
>
> I mean just what I said. Does not have anything to do with flagrant fouls.
Well then, I don't understand. When "the lakers big men make guards pay for
getting in the paint," I expect a foul to be called. Are you saying this
should happen *without* consequence?
>>>> Just because Kobe is an out-of-sight scoring machine doesn't mean others
>>>> should be allowed to escalate the severity of their hitting to stop him.
>>>> Wouldn't you agree?
>>>>
>>> If it is a flagrant call one.
>>>
>> I'm not talking about flagrant fouls on Kobe. I mean elbows to the ribs,
>> grabbing some jersey, bumping his head a little, slight undercuts. Pros know
>> how to bend the rules and if Kobe in on a roll and they get wind that you're
>> only going to call an average amount of fouls, they will beat him up.
>>
> Contact is not nesessarily a foul and Kobe gives that type of contact too. If
> you want every percieved foul called no matter the advantage then the opponent
> will be happy to have Kobe sitting in foul trouble.
Last night Kobe was bumped turning the corner so much it threw him off
balance but no call. A couple of minutes later a Laker was call for a touch
on a player turning the corner that had absolutely no affect on the players
motion. I would just like fouls to be called the same during the game.
>>> They regulate themselves under the league. They are training constantly.
>>> They have reams of interpretations of the rules to learn. Every tape is
>>> studied, even at the half. They write a report on every game. Senior retired
>>> refs are in the stands grading them. They get fines and suspensions if they
>>> really screw up. They under review get at least 92% of calls right. If they
>>> do not meet that standard they get fired.
>>>
>> I am pro law enforcement, too, but I tell my students that I will listen to
>> any complaint they have about mistreatment because I know there are always
>> some careful bad cops.
>>
> Cops do not have 8 cameras aimed at them and a superviser taking notes every
> minute they work.
Cops are video taped and supervised. That's how we find who the bad ones
are. Are you saying that NBA officials are beyond reproach? Are you saying
that there is no way an NBA official could possibly harbor feelings of
revenge against Kobe, a guy who should have been in prison now but is
prancing around like Mr. Perfect and becoming the centerpiece of the USA's
all American basketball team?
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 47rtciF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/15/06 5:28 PM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> in article 47pfq2F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/14/06 7:24 PM:
>>
>>>> The subject is about Kobe's mindset. If this game you claim he was
>>>> whining because he was not getting calls... why was he whining
>>>> just as much in a game he got tons of calls?
>>>>
>>> I don't think he does as a general rule.
>>>
>> Has this year. He leads the legue in Ts. Besides I was comparing 2
>> games. At Potland he shot 15 FTs and yet whined the whole game, to
>> the point it really hurt his team. He should have got a T.
>>
> You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be
> happy with them.
I am talking about sportsmanship..or the lack of it...how would you feel about Parker whiming
constantly at the refs instead of getting back on defense?
>The league's biggest scoring threat should logically
> be getting the *most* FTAs.
The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more attempt per 2 and 3 games. They all get
about 11 per game.
>I don't see any reason that, in a season
> when he is making record after record in scoring,
that he shouldn't
> be making record after record in FTAs,
2 years ago he was getting 8. In a year when Jordan was averaging 33 points he was getting 7 FTAs
which ranked 8th.
>unless you think the league
> just backs away in homage.
He is a jump shooter. The reason he gets so many is because he is good at baiting his defenders into
fouling him.
>
>>>> And so you whine if the lakers big men make guards pay for getting
>>>> in the paint?
>>>
>>> You mean like the flagrant foul called on Odom a couple of game ago.
>>> When you make a guard pay you get a foul called.
>>
>> I mean just what I said. Does not have anything to do with flagrant
>> fouls.
>
> Well then, I don't understand. When "the lakers big men make guards
> pay for getting in the paint," I expect a foul to be called. Are you
> saying this should happen *without* consequence?
You want them to get their money's worth so perhaps the guard will settle for jump shots.
>
>>>>> Just because Kobe is an out-of-sight scoring machine doesn't mean
>>>>> others should be allowed to escalate the severity of their
>>>>> hitting to stop him. Wouldn't you agree?
>>>>>
>>>> If it is a flagrant call one.
>>>>
>>> I'm not talking about flagrant fouls on Kobe. I mean elbows to the
>>> ribs, grabbing some jersey, bumping his head a little, slight
>>> undercuts. Pros know how to bend the rules and if Kobe in on a roll
>>> and they get wind that you're only going to call an average amount
>>> of fouls, they will beat him up.
>>>
>> Contact is not nesessarily a foul and Kobe gives that type of
>> contact too. If you want every percieved foul called no matter the
>> advantage then the opponent will be happy to have Kobe sitting in
>> foul trouble.
>
> Last night Kobe was bumped turning the corner so much it threw him off
> balance but no call. A couple of minutes later a Laker was call for a
> touch on a player turning the corner that had absolutely no affect on
> the players motion.
Same area on the floor?
> I would just like fouls to be called the same
> during the game.
Would be nice. But the refs are humans not robots and can only see so much.
>
>>>> They regulate themselves under the league. They are training
>>>> constantly. They have reams of interpretations of the rules to
>>>> learn. Every tape is studied, even at the half. They write a
>>>> report on every game. Senior retired refs are in the stands
>>>> grading them. They get fines and suspensions if they really screw
>>>> up. They under review get at least 92% of calls right. If they do
>>>> not meet that standard they get fired.
>>>>
>>> I am pro law enforcement, too, but I tell my students that I will
>>> listen to any complaint they have about mistreatment because I know
>>> there are always some careful bad cops.
>>>
>> Cops do not have 8 cameras aimed at them and a superviser taking
>> notes every minute they work.
>
> Cops are video taped and supervised. That's how we find who the bad
> ones are.
In front of 8 cameras studied in slow motion for everything they do plus in front of 20,000 critics?
>Are you saying that NBA officials are beyond reproach?
I am saying it is an imperfect system because they are human. But they get 92 out of 100 calls right
or they get fired.
> Are
> you saying that there is no way an NBA official could possibly harbor
> feelings of revenge against Kobe, a guy who should have been in
> prison now but is prancing around like Mr. Perfect and becoming the
> centerpiece of the USA's all American basketball team?
Perhaps there is such a person but I doubt it. Feuds have happened but they are pretty apparent. And
the obvious way to assert 'revenge' would be to look for excuses to give him Ts and kick him out.
That was how the Drexler/ Jake O'Donnell feud ended with the highest rated ref in basketball being
forced to retire over it.
Instead the last few games several have passed on giving him deserved Ts.
--
Laurel T
Everyone had their hands in Kobe's face.
My momma had a hand in his face and he still hit it."
Bonzi Wells
igor eduardo küpfer
George Evans wrote:
>You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be happy
>with them. The league's biggest scoring threat should logically be getting
>the *most* FTAs. I don't see any reason that, in a season when he is making
>record after record in scoring, that he shouldn't be making record after
>record in FTAs, unless you think the league just backs away in homage.
You don't get FTAs for scoring, you get them for being fouled. Kobe's FTA
rate is statistically indistinguishable from the league leaders, as befits a
scoring leader. You need to show that Kobe gets fouled at a greater rate
than he is given FTAs. And then you need to show that those other players do
not suffer from the same FTA bias.
--
all the best,
ed
Epitome:
Nice kid, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.
Email:
edkupfer. It's a gmail addy.
NBA Stats:
http://ca.geocities.com/brot...@rogers.com/NBA/Teams/Front.html
Terraholm
> George Evans wrote:
> Perhaps there is such a person but I doubt it. Feuds have happened
> but they are pretty apparent. And the obvious way to assert 'revenge'
> would be to look for excuses to give him Ts and kick him out. That
> was how the Drexler/ Jake O'Donnell feud ended with the highest rated
> ref in basketball being forced to retire over it.
By Fran Blinebury
SportsLine USA Regional Columnist
December 13, 1995
HOUSTON -- You get a fair shake with Jake. For 28 seasons that was the word.
From the time before Lew Alcindor dropped in his very first sky hook in the
National Basketball Association through Air Jordan's fantasy dalliance as a
professional baseball player, it was something you could count on.
Jake O'Donnell, veteran referee of more than 2,100 regular-season games
since 1967, retired this week. In many corners of Houston, that little story
was quite likely greeted by loud cheers and joyous celebration.
THAT REACTION, OF COURSE, stems from the playoffs last spring. May 9, Game 1
of the Western Conference semifinals in Phoenix against the Suns, to be more
accurate. Ten minutes and 12 seconds left in the second quarter, to be
precise.
The Houston Rockets were trailing 40-30, and Kevin Johnson had just hoisted
a jump shot that bounced off the rim. Clyde Drexler snatched the rebound and
tried to get the fastbreak started when the Suns' Dan Majerle flicked away
the outlet pass but could not control the ball.
Drexler and Majerle took off in hot pursuit of the ball and briefly crossed
paths. Contact, if any, was incidental and, according to all of the replays,
seemed to have little effect on the play.
But as Majerle raced to try to save the ball from going out of bounds, the
tweet-tweet of O'Donnell's whistle rang out in America West Arena. Drexler
was called for a "clear path" foul, meaning he interfered with what would
have been a sure basket.
Drexler protested and, in a matter of seconds, O'Donnell slapped him with
two technical fouls, meaning automatic ejection, and thus greased the skids
for his own departure from the game.
Why? How? What happened?
NOBODY BUT O'DONNELL KNOWS for sure. But in the space of a few fiery
seconds, a long and distinguished career was in ashes.
Was O'Donnell at fault? Apparently so. He never worked another game in the
playoffs, a damning, if silent indictment from the powers that be in the
league office.
The Rockets vigorously protested O'Donnell's actions through the proper
channels and sent to commissioner David Stern's office a video tape of the
pregame captain's meeting at mid-court, when O'Donnell refused to shake
Drexler's hand.
A long standing grudge that dated back to his days with the Portland Trail
Blazers. That was Drexler's contention, though he claims to have no
knowledge of how or when it began.
BUT KNOW THIS: AT the time of the incident, O'Donnell was once again ranked
among the top league's three referees in a rating system that is based
mainly on input from NBA coaches.
You get a fair shake with Jake. That was the word.
Long-time numbers guru of the Philadelphia 76ers, Harvey Pollack, who has
been with the NBA since its inception in 1947, has kept statistics on
referees for years. His annual computations usually showed O'Donnell to be
the most even-handed.
The percentage of wins by road teams in games he officiated was usually the
highest of any NBA whistle-blower, meaning O'Donnell was not inclined to be
intimidated or swayed by the home crowds.
With his square, firmly-set, Don Shula-like jaw, O'Donnell was regarded as a
no-nonsense ref who established his authority and rarely let a game get out
of hand. Down through the years, when tempers would begin to heat up in a
playoff series and elbows and cheap shots would start to fly, you could
count on the NBA bringing in O'Donnell to restore order.
Following a controversial finish to a 1980 playoff game in Philadephia that
involved the 24-second shot clock and a complaint by then-Milwaukee coach
Don Nelson, O'Donnell took a group of reporters in a rental car to a local
TV station to review the game tapes. "Embarrassment, hell," O'Donnell said.
"I just want to get it right."
THESE OBJECTS OF OUR DERISION likely have the most difficult job in sports.
The NBA game is such an incredible combination of size, power and speed
played at close quarters and the delicate balance between control and
tyranny by a ref is like walking the thinnest tightrope. They have to be
firm and yet the best are not unbending.
The late Earl Strom, the best I ever saw, kept things loose with jokes and
one-liners, but he took his job seriously. In his autobiography, "Calling
the Shots," Strom told of a night when he ruled that a shooter was toeing
the line on a last-second 3-point shot and sent the game into overtime,
where the team lost.
When Strom returned to his dressing room after the game, he saw a TV replay
that showed the shooter was clearly behind the 3-point line. He immediately
went to the locker room of the losing team and apologized to the coach. From
that night on, Strom lobbied vigorously for the NBA to use instant replay.
Strom had his out-of-control moments as well. After getting into a dispute
with fellow ref Dick Bavetta over a call, Strom went into the locker room at
halftime and proceeded to choke Bavetta with a towel.
He would later be fined for that action, but he went back out and called the
second half of the game without incident. Strom was once suspended from the
playoffs after criticizing then-Bulls owner Jonathan Kovler in a weekly
column he wrote for his hometown newspaper in Pottstown, Pa.
The point is: they are human, subject to all of the frailties.
O'DONNELL'S SUSPENSION FROM the 1995 playoffs, however, was shocking because
it involved a veteran referee of 278 postseason and 39 NBA Finals games and
a perennial All-Star in Drexler who is regarded as one of the league's
gentlemen.
A grudge? A personal vendetta? There have been many nasty rumors.
But the league was clearly in a difficult position if O'Donnell returned to
the job this season. How could one of the league's top-rated referees be
kept away from working games involving the two-time champions? How could
anyone be sure there wouldn't be repercussions -- and maybe an ugly incident
at The Summit -- if he did work a Rockets' game?
So while there has been no official comment, it is safe to assume that
O'Donnell was given a nudge toward retirement by the NBA office.
Did Jake get a fair shake?
Hard to say. But after 28 years, that's a tough way to hit the door.
iceme...@hotmail.com
George Evans wrote:
> Are you saying
> that there is no way an NBA official could possibly harbor feelings of
> revenge against Kobe, a guy who should have been in prison now but is
> prancing around like Mr. Perfect and becoming the centerpiece of the USA's
> all American basketball team?
Why should he have been in prison now? For what? Being set up by a
liar? You're probably just trolling here so I'm sure you won't be able
to provide any logic in your response.
Icemelter
Terraholm
He was not speaking for himself but trying to place those thoughts on the refs...he thinks they are
biased against Kobe when it is actually him being biased for Kobe...=)
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/16/06 5:27 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 47rtciF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/15/06 5:28 PM:
<snip>
>>> Has this year. He leads the legue in Ts. Besides I was comparing 2 games. At
>>> Potland he shot 15 FTs and yet whined the whole game, to the point it really
>>> hurt his team. He should have got a T.
>>>
>> You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be happy with
>> them.
>>
> I am talking about sportsmanship..or the lack of it...how would you feel about
> Parker whiming constantly at the refs instead of getting back on defense?
I always love it when Parker whines. I just laugh at the little Frenchie.
>> The league's biggest scoring threat should logically be getting the *most*
>> FTAs.
>>
> The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more attempt per 2 and
> 3 games. They all get about 11 per game.
Exactly. So any one of them should complain if they get no calls in a half.
And if what you seem to be implying is happening they each should actually
be getting *more* than 11 FTAs per game.
>> I don't see any reason that, in a season when he is making record after
>> record in scoring, that he shouldn't be making record after record in FTAs,
>>
> 2 years ago he was getting 8. In a year when Jordan was averaging 33 points
> he was getting 7 FTAs which ranked 8th.
OK, OK, I'll live with 11.
>> unless you think the league just backs away in homage.
>>
> He is a jump shooter. The reason he gets so many is because he is good at
> baiting his defenders into fouling him.
He's not a pure jump shooter.
<snip>
>>> Contact is not nesessarily a foul and Kobe gives that type of contact too.
>>> If you want every percieved foul called no matter the advantage then the
>>> opponent will be happy to have Kobe sitting in foul trouble.
>>>
>> Last night Kobe was bumped turning the corner so much it threw him off
>> balance but no call. A couple of minutes later a Laker was call for a touch
>> on a player turning the corner that had absolutely no affect on the players
>> motion.
>>
> Same area on the floor?
Yes, except opposite sides.
>> I would just like fouls to be called the same during the game.
>>
> Would be nice. But the refs are humans not robots and can only see so much.
Yea, yea. That a lot of fog to hide prejudice behind though.
<snip>
>>> Cops do not have 8 cameras aimed at them and a superviser taking notes every
>>> minute they work.
>>>
>> Cops are video taped and supervised. That's how we find who the bad ones are.
>>
> In front of 8 cameras studied in slow motion for everything they do plus in
> front of 20,000 critics?
>
>> Are you saying that NBA officials are beyond reproach?
>>
> I am saying it is an imperfect system because they are human. But they get 92
> out of 100 calls right or they get fired.
This is something I wanted to ask last go round. When the evaluate refs, how
do they check for missed calls? Or do they just evaluate the made calls?
>> Are you saying that there is no way an NBA official could possibly harbor
>> feelings of revenge against Kobe, a guy who should have been in prison now
>> but is prancing around like Mr. Perfect and becoming the centerpiece of the
>> USA's all American basketball team?
>>
> Perhaps there is such a person but I doubt it. Feuds have happened but they
> are pretty apparent. And the obvious way to assert 'revenge' would be to look
> for excuses to give him Ts and kick him out. That was how the Drexler/ Jake
> O'Donnell feud ended with the highest rated ref in basketball being forced to
> retire over it. Instead the last few games several have passed on giving him
> deserved Ts.
Since O'Donnell got disciplined for that method why do you say it's the
obvious choice for revenge? BTW, I have seen some pretty quick "even up"
calls in Kobe's favor this season.
And I would like to know why you doubt there is "such a person."
George Evans
George Evans
at edku...@reader.greatnowhere.com wrote on 3/16/06 5:56 PM:
> In alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers on Fri, 17 Mar 2006 00:49:27 GMT
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be happy with
>> them. The league's biggest scoring threat should logically be getting the
>> *most* FTAs. I don't see any reason that, in a season when he is making
>> record after record in scoring, that he shouldn't be making record after
>> record in FTAs, unless you think the league just backs away in homage.
>>
> You don't get FTAs for scoring, you get them for being fouled. Kobe's FTA rate
> is statistically indistinguishable from the league leaders, as befits a
> scoring leader. You need to show that Kobe gets fouled at a greater rate than
> he is given FTAs. And then you need to show that those other players do not
> suffer from the same FTA bias.
I only meant there should be a correlation between scoring and FTAs, and
this should be true for all the leaders. I am suspicious that there is some
factor at play that causes all these leading scorers to not get as many
calls as they should. Maybe there is a desire to not slow the game down any
more, or maybe refs feel to embarrassed giving one player in a game that
many more FTAs. What does the curve of scoring average vs. FTAs look like?
Theoretically I might expect a straight line.
George Evans
George Evans
iceme...@hotmail.com at iceme...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/16/06 6:23 PM:
Sorry, that was bad composition on my part. The whole last clause, beginning
with "a guy who...", was my attempt to give voice to possible feelings
lurking in the heart of some hypothetical NBA official.
George Evans
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/16/06 6:57 PM:
> iceme...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> Are you saying that there is no way an NBA official could possibly harbor
>>> feelings of revenge against Kobe, a guy who should have been in prison now
>>> but is prancing around like Mr. Perfect and becoming the centerpiece of the
>>> USA's all American basketball team?
>>>
>> Why should he have been in prison now? For what? Being set up by a liar?
>> You're probably just trolling here so I'm sure you won't be able to provide
>> any logic in your response.
>>
> He was not speaking for himself but trying to place those thoughts on the
> refs...he thinks they are biased against Kobe when it is actually him being
> biased for Kobe...=)
How do *you* know? :-P
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 47uj4kF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/16/06 5:27 PM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> in article 47rtciF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/15/06 5:28 PM:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> Has this year. He leads the legue in Ts. Besides I was comparing 2
>>>> games. At Potland he shot 15 FTs and yet whined the whole game, to
>>>> the point it really hurt his team. He should have got a T.
>>>>
>>> You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be
>>> happy with them.
>>>
>> I am talking about sportsmanship..or the lack of it...how would you
>> back on defense?
>
> I always love it when Parker whines. I just laugh at the little
> Frenchie.
I meant Smush...how would you
feel about your Parker whining constantly at the refs instead of getting
back on defense?
>
>>> The league's biggest scoring threat should logically be getting the
>>> *most* FTAs.
>>>
>> The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more attempt
>> per 2 and 3 games. They all get about 11 per game.
>
> Exactly. So any one of them should complain if they get no calls in a
> half.
Not if they were not fouled...should the opponent automactically have a complaint if they get a lot
more than the average in a half?
> And if what you seem to be implying is happening they each
> should actually be getting *more* than 11 FTAs per game.
No.
>
>>> I don't see any reason that, in a season when he is making record
>>> after record in scoring, that he shouldn't be making record after
>>> record in FTAs,
>>>
>> 2 years ago he was getting 8. In a year when Jordan was averaging
>> 33 points he was getting 7 FTAs which ranked 8th.
>
> OK, OK, I'll live with 11.
=) how about this... He draws a foul on 12% of his shots.
>
>>> unless you think the league just backs away in homage.
>>>
>> He is a jump shooter. The reason he gets so many is because he is
>> good at baiting his defenders into fouling him.
>
> He's not a pure jump shooter.
The majority of his shots, 80%, are jump shots. 2% of those blocked. Close is 18% with 12% of those
blocked. The other 2% are dunks.
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> Contact is not nesessarily a foul and Kobe gives that type of
>>>> contact too. If you want every percieved foul called no matter the
>>>> advantage then the opponent will be happy to have Kobe sitting in
>>>> foul trouble.
>>>>
>>> Last night Kobe was bumped turning the corner so much it threw him
>>> off balance but no call. A couple of minutes later a Laker was call
>>> for a touch on a player turning the corner that had absolutely no
>>> affect on the players motion.
>>>
>> Same area on the floor?
>
> Yes, except opposite sides.
Different refs call then. Might not have seen it, whatever.
>
>>> I would just like fouls to be called the same during the game.
>>>
>> Would be nice. But the refs are humans not robots and can only see
>> so much.
>
> Yea, yea. That a lot of fog to hide prejudice behind though.
Now you are reaching...
>
> <snip>
>
> This is something I wanted to ask last go round. When the evaluate
> refs, how do they check for missed calls? Or do they just evaluate
> the made calls?
They evaluate the whole game.
>
>>> Are you saying that there is no way an NBA official could possibly
>>> harbor feelings of revenge against Kobe, a guy who should have been
>>> in prison now but is prancing around like Mr. Perfect and becoming
>>> the centerpiece of the USA's all American basketball team?
>>>
>> Perhaps there is such a person but I doubt it. Feuds have happened
>> but they are pretty apparent. And the obvious way to assert
>> 'revenge' would be to look for excuses to give him Ts and kick him
>> out. That was how the Drexler/ Jake O'Donnell feud ended with the
>> highest rated ref in basketball being forced to retire over it.
>> Instead the last few games several have passed on giving him
>> deserved Ts.
>
> Since O'Donnell got disciplined for that method why do you say it's
> the obvious choice for revenge?
If they do not like Kobe and he is in their face barking at them what is the motive for not giving
him a T when he deserves one? In the game you are complaining about he kicked the ball into the
stands...why would these guys that want 'revenge' on Kobe pass up the opportunity to kick him out of
the game as they should have?
BTW, I have seen some pretty quick
> "even up" calls in Kobe's favor this season.
Most make up calls are myth...as Earl Strom said in his book that just makes both teams pissed at
you instead of one...
>
> And I would like to know why you doubt there is "such a person."
Because they are doing a job. They have enough to do without making calls from whether they like the
guy or not. And this from a fan of Rasheed's....
--
Laurel T
"The Isaiah Rider camp,has only one camper in it."
David Kahn, Pacers GM,
Terraholm
Pretty much but still there are some variables.
Shaq is not in the top 20 scoring this year but is for FTAs...bet you can figure out that
variable...=)
Also on a team the best scorers and the best FT shooter may be different, so they will not get the
FTAs at the ends of close games. So Parker despite his inside game does not get a lot of FTs because
Ginobili gets the end of game ones. While Duncan gets the most on the team because it is worthwhile
fouling a poor FT shooter.
--
Laurel T
"If Jordan loves the game so much,
why does he keep quitting?"
Cal Ripken
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/17/06 1:11 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 47uj4kF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/16/06 5:27 PM:
>>
>>> George Evans wrote:
>>>
>>>> in article 47rtciF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/15/06 5:28 PM:
<snip>
>>> I am talking about sportsmanship..or the lack of it...how would you feel
>>> about Parker whining constantly at the refs instead of getting back on
>>> defense?
>>>
>> I always love it when Parker whines. I just laugh at the little Frenchie.
>>
> I meant Smush...how would you feel about your Parker whining constantly at the
> refs instead of getting back on defense?
If he was in Kobe's shoes I would understand. If Kobe had Artest temperament
he would have attacked a ref by now.
>>> The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more attempt per 2
>>> and 3 games. They all get about 11 per game.
>>>
>> Exactly. So any one of them should complain if they get no calls in a half.
>>
> Not if they were not fouled...should the opponent automactically have a
> complaint if they get a lot more than the average in a half?
If they are not truly fouled then the defense is not doing it's job. If you
are known for defense and any scorer is on line to score 40 or 50 on you,
you better start pushing some boundaries. You better take it to the edge.
You better end the game with 5 or 6 fouls.
>> And if what you seem to be implying is happening they each should actually be
>> getting *more* than 11 FTAs per game.
>
> No.
Yes.
>>> 2 years ago he was getting 8. In a year when Jordan was averaging 33 points
>>> he was getting 7 FTAs which ranked 8th.
>>>
>> OK, OK, I'll live with 11.
>>
> =) how about this... He draws a foul on 12% of his shots.
If you are intending that as a guideline, then you are getting back to
mediocrity. There is no accounting for scoring ability. It would have to be
something like, the top ten scorers get calls on 20% of shots, the next 20
highest scorers get calls on 15% of shots, etc. It has to be a sliding
scale.
>>> He is a jump shooter. The reason he gets so many is because he is good at
>>> baiting his defenders into fouling him.
>>>
>> He's not a pure jump shooter.
>>
> The majority of his shots, 80%, are jump shots. 2% of those blocked. Close is
> 18% with 12% of those blocked. The other 2% are dunks.
He said at the beginning of the year that he would be going to more outside
shots because of the pounding in the lane, and apparently that also happened
to Jordan. Due to the refs inability to call a tight game two of the NBA's
most entertaining players are relegated to jumpers instead of circus shots.
FANtastic.
>>> Perhaps there is such a person but I doubt it. Feuds have happened but they
>>> are pretty apparent. And the obvious way to assert 'revenge' would be to
>>> look for excuses to give him Ts and kick him out. That was how the Drexler/
>>> Jake O'Donnell feud ended with the highest rated ref in basketball being
>>> forced to retire over it. Instead the last few games several have passed on
>>> giving him deserved Ts.
>>>
>> Since O'Donnell got disciplined for that method why do you say it's the
>> obvious choice for revenge?
>>
> If they do not like Kobe and he is in their face barking at them what is the
> motive for not giving him a T when he deserves one? In the game you are
> complaining about he kicked the ball into the stands...why would these guys
> that want 'revenge' on Kobe pass up the opportunity to kick him out of the
> game as they should have?
Guilt, fear. If they had been calling a fair game then kick him out. The
ball actually would have hit an opponent in the head. Why do you think they
didn't call it?
>> BTW, I have seen some pretty quick "even up" calls in Kobe's favor this
>> season.
>>
> Most make up calls are myth...as Earl Strom said in his book that just makes
> both teams pissed at you instead of one...
I don't believe it. On one occasion Kobe was charged with a walk and on the
very next play I think, the other teams guard was charged with a walk before
the play got started, sending the play back where it should have been.
That's in your face.
>> And I would like to know why you doubt there is "such a person."
>>
> Because they are doing a job. They have enough to do without making calls from
> whether they like the guy or not. And this from a fan of Rasheed's....
That is very naive and ignorant of the workings of the human mind. You need
to learn from "The Shadow". ;-)
George Evans
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/17/06 1:28 PM:
Yea, the persons FT% had occurred to me as a variable, but I figured that,
in general, the better scorer in a better FT shooter. That may not have been
a good assumption.
George Evans
igor eduardo küpfer
George Evans wrote:
>in article v35k12la6kfp0u1a3...@4ax.com, igor eduardo küpfer
>at edku...@reader.greatnowhere.com wrote on 3/16/06 5:56 PM:
>
>> In alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers on Fri, 17 Mar 2006 00:49:27 GMT
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> You keep pointing out how many FTA's Kobe gets, as if he should be happy with
>>> them. The league's biggest scoring threat should logically be getting the
>>> *most* FTAs. I don't see any reason that, in a season when he is making
>>> record after record in scoring, that he shouldn't be making record after
>>> record in FTAs, unless you think the league just backs away in homage.
>>>
>> You don't get FTAs for scoring, you get them for being fouled. Kobe's FTA rate
>> is statistically indistinguishable from the league leaders, as befits a
>> scoring leader. You need to show that Kobe gets fouled at a greater rate than
>> he is given FTAs. And then you need to show that those other players do not
>> suffer from the same FTA bias.
>
>I only meant there should be a correlation between scoring and FTAs, and
>this should be true for all the leaders.
Sure there is. Depending on what players you want to include in the dataset,
the correlation between PTS and FTA is very high (r=0.8 in the chart below):
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6503/ftavspts9ub.gif
Only the top 100 PTS scorers included. A similar chart, using all players
from this season, would look nearly identical.
> I am suspicious that there is some
>factor at play that causes all these leading scorers to not get as many
>calls as they should. Maybe there is a desire to not slow the game down any
>more, or maybe refs feel to embarrassed giving one player in a game that
>many more FTAs. What does the curve of scoring average vs. FTAs look like?
>Theoretically I might expect a straight line.
What I meant before, and hopefully have shown in the chart above, is that
Kobe gets to the free throw line at exactly as much as he should, at least
by using PTS as a predictor.
Terraholm
> in article 480n4bF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/17/06 1:11 PM:
>
>
>>>> I am talking about sportsmanship..or the lack of it...how would
>>>> you feel about Parker whining constantly at the refs instead of
>>>> getting back on defense?
>>>>
>>> I always love it when Parker whines. I just laugh at the little
>>> Frenchie.
>>>
>> I meant Smush...how would you feel about your Parker whining
>> constantly at the refs instead of getting back on defense?
>
> If he was in Kobe's shoes I would understand.
Smush and all of them think calls are not going their way. So how would you feel if Smush thought it
more important to rant at the ref than get back on defense and let the lakers play 4 on 5?
Exactly what I am pointing out. You give Kobe a pass because he is Kobe. He should not get a pass on
a for not doing his job because he is a superstar. He is hurting his team when he pulls that shit.
He cost the lakers the game in Portland. Between that last play and a few other times portland had
lay-ups while Kobe stayed in the backcourt to argue with a ref. he gave the blazers several points.
Being at the game I saw just how bad it was because it would be off camera.
>
>>>> The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more
>>>> attempt per 2 and 3 games. They all get about 11 per game.
>>>>
>>> Exactly. So any one of them should complain if they get no calls in
>>> a half.
>>>
>> Not if they were not fouled...should the opponent automactically
>> have a complaint if they get a lot more than the average in a half?
>
> If they are not truly fouled then the defense is not doing it's job.
> If you are known for defense and any scorer is on line to score 40 or
> 50 on you, you better start pushing some boundaries.
Absolutely not true. The best defense is to keep the ball out of their hands if possible and failing
that to make the shot as difficult as posible without fouling. Kobe gets to 40 with about 15 FTs
usually. He is more likely to miss a FGA.
You better take
> it to the edge. You better end the game with 5 or 6 fouls.
If you are playing Shaq or preventing dunks perhaps. Not if it is a jump shooter and the player
shoots 85% on FTs. One of the cardnal rules of defense is do not foul the jump shooter. A player
doing so would no foul out because his couch would park his butt on the bench. Besides giving Kobe
FTs it puts the team into the penalty sooner and the whole team is shooting FTs.
>
>>> And if what you seem to be implying is happening they each should
>>> actually be getting *more* than 11 FTAs per game.
>>
>> No.
>
> Yes.
Yes what? I am certainly not implying that.
>
>>>> 2 years ago he was getting 8. In a year when Jordan was averaging
>>>> 33 points he was getting 7 FTAs which ranked 8th.
>>>>
>>> OK, OK, I'll live with 11.
>>>
>> =) how about this... He draws a foul on 12% of his shots.
>
> If you are intending that as a guideline, then you are getting back to
> mediocrity.
That is a real stat for Kobe. Kobe is very good at drawing fouls from those very guys that do not
want to foul him on jump shots...the great defenders do not fall for his fakes or for him moving
into them to come up under their arms (which he said he learned from Duncan). If he hits the hard
shots they still have done their job.
>There is no accounting for scoring ability. It would have
> to be something like, the top ten scorers get calls on 20% of shots,
> the next 20 highest scorers get calls on 15% of shots, etc. It has to
> be a sliding scale.
That idea does not hold at all. Lots of varibles...Has more to do with how good of FT shooters they
are and where they are shooting from. Mihm draws a higher % of fouls at 15% than Kobe but shoots
only 39% jump shots and 70% at the line.
Who would draw a larger % of fouls, Kobe who takes 25 jump shots per game on about 41% FGP on those
outside while 85% from the line or Ben Wallace that takes 80% of his 6 FGAs inside at 57% and
shoots 44% at the line? Who do you want to foul? Ben is fouled on 19% of his shots while scoring 7
ppg.
And the best scorers get the best defenders, the ones less likely to foul a jump shooter.
>
>>>> He is a jump shooter. The reason he gets so many is because he is
>>>> good at baiting his defenders into fouling him.
>>>>
>>> He's not a pure jump shooter.
>>>
>> The majority of his shots, 80%, are jump shots. 2% of those
>> blocked. Close is 18% with 12% of those blocked. The other 2% are
>> dunks.
>
> He said at the beginning of the year that he would be going to more
> outside shots because of the pounding in the lane,
That works, last year he took 71% jump shots and drew fouls 16% of the time.
>and apparently
> that also happened to Jordan. Due to the refs inability to call a
> tight game two of the NBA's most entertaining players are relegated
> to jumpers instead of circus shots. FANtastic.
Contact in the lane is not always a foul. When they deem it incidental that does not mean it is not
hard contact.
Players bodies wear down after a few years and games adjust, not just stars...
>
>>>> Perhaps there is such a person but I doubt it. Feuds have happened
>>>> but they are pretty apparent. And the obvious way to assert
>>>> 'revenge' would be to look for excuses to give him Ts and kick him
>>>> out. That was how the Drexler/ Jake O'Donnell feud ended with the
>>>> highest rated ref in basketball being forced to retire over it.
>>>> Instead the last few games several have passed on giving him
>>>> deserved Ts.
>>>>
>>> Since O'Donnell got disciplined for that method why do you say it's
>>> the obvious choice for revenge?
>>>
>> If they do not like Kobe and he is in their face barking at them
>> what is the motive for not giving him a T when he deserves one? In
>> the game you are complaining about he kicked the ball into the
>> stands...why would these guys that want 'revenge' on Kobe pass up
>> the opportunity to kick him out of the game as they should have?
>
> Guilt, fear.
Tolerance...
>If they had been calling a fair game then kick him out.
> The ball actually would have hit an opponent in the head. Why do you
> think they didn't call it?
Because they did not want to toss the NBAs biggest drawing star in a close game on national TV, and
perhaps because it did not make it past the photographers... Star players have got away with more in
the playoffs too. Pippen and Malone that should have got suspended got fined instead.
>
>>> BTW, I have seen some pretty quick "even up" calls in Kobe's favor
>>> this season.
>>>
>> Most make up calls are myth...as Earl Strom said in his book that
>> just makes both teams pissed at you instead of one...
>
> I don't believe it. On one occasion Kobe was charged with a walk and
> on the very next play I think, the other teams guard was charged with
> a walk before the play got started, sending the play back where it
> should have been. That's in your face.
I did not say never...
>
>>> And I would like to know why you doubt there is "such a person."
>>>
>> Because they are doing a job. They have enough to do without making
>> calls from whether they like the guy or not. And this from a fan of
>> Rasheed's....
>
> That is very naive and ignorant of the workings of the human mind.
> You need to learn from "The Shadow". ;-)
>
Conspiracies are more fun all right.
--
Laurel T
'Sheed was arguing a call... announcer Mike Barrett
asked 'who got a T earlier?' and was told Mo Cheeks:
"It's OK then, 'Sheed has one to give"...
George Evans
at edku...@reader.greatnowhere.com wrote on 3/18/06 1:01 PM:
> In alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers on Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:59:41 GMT
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article v35k12la6kfp0u1a3...@4ax.com, igor eduardo küpfer
>> at edku...@reader.greatnowhere.com wrote on 3/16/06 5:56 PM:
<snip>
>>> You don't get FTAs for scoring, you get them for being fouled. Kobe's FTA
>>> rate is statistically indistinguishable from the league leaders, as befits a
>>> scoring leader. You need to show that Kobe gets fouled at a greater rate
>>> than he is given FTAs. And then you need to show that those other players do
>>> not suffer from the same FTA bias.
>>
>> I only meant there should be a correlation between scoring and FTAs, and this
>> should be true for all the leaders.
>>
> Sure there is. Depending on what players you want to include in the dataset,
> the correlation between PTS and FTA is very high (r=0.8 in the chart below):
>
> http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6503/ftavspts9ub.gif
>
> Only the top 100 PTS scorers included. A similar chart, using all players from
> this season, would look nearly identical.
Ah, the universe is as it should be. Hey, regression analysis and sports?
What is this place?
>> I am suspicious that there is some factor at play that causes all these
>> leading scorers to not get as many calls as they should. Maybe there is a
>> desire to not slow the game down any more, or maybe refs feel to embarrassed
>> giving one player in a game that many more FTAs. What does the curve of
>> scoring average vs. FTAs look like? Theoretically I might expect a straight
>> line.
>>
> What I meant before, and hopefully have shown in the chart above, is that Kobe
> gets to the free throw line at exactly as much as he should, at least by using
> PTS as a predictor.
I suppose by exactly as much as he should, you mean on the line. But it
looks like the other leaders get exactly more than they should. Has there
been an attempt to match this data to anything other than a straight line?
George Evans
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/18/06 4:31 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 480n4bF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/17/06 1:11 PM:
<snip>
>>> I meant Smush...how would you feel about your Parker whining constantly at
>>> the refs instead of getting back on defense?
>>>
>> If he was in Kobe's shoes I would understand.
>>
> Smush and all of them think calls are not going their way. So how would you
> feel if Smush thought it more important to rant at the ref than get back on
> defense and let the lakers play 4 on 5?
>
> Exactly what I am pointing out. You give Kobe a pass because he is Kobe. He
> should not get a pass on a for not doing his job because he is a superstar. He
> is hurting his team when he pulls that shit. He cost the lakers the game in
> Portland. Between that last play and a few other times portland had lay-ups
> while Kobe stayed in the backcourt to argue with a ref. he gave the blazers
> several points. Being at the game I saw just how bad it was because it would
> be off camera.
I hope you were watching the game today. If so you saw a three point play by
the refs, late in the game, for the Cavs. What a sad, sad game for the
officials. You just need to shut your mouth about these fucking officials.
Lamar drives and gets clobbered, Hubie Green says this is the NBA, their
going to make you earn it with made shots. Next play Murray drives, slips,
Kobe knocks the ball away, FOUL!!!!! What the fuck happened to earning it.
Two FTs for Murray with 3.4 left!!!!
>>>>> The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more attempt per 2
>>>>> and 3 games. They all get about 11 per game.
>>>>>
>>>> Exactly. So any one of them should complain if they get no calls in a half.
>>>>
>>> Not if they were not fouled...should the opponent automactically have a
>>> complaint if they get a lot more than the average in a half?
>>>
>> If they are not truly fouled then the defense is not doing it's job. If you
>> are known for defense and any scorer is on line to score 40 or 50 on you, you
>> better start pushing some boundaries.
>>
> Absolutely not true...
Just shut the fuck up. I'm not in the mood. Forget the damn playoffs, I just
want to see Kobe beat the crap out of one of these refs.
George Evans
JC Martin
<snip>
Well, good no-call by the refs on the Lamar play IMO. Replays showed he
was clearly using his arm and elbow to clear space.
Kobe on the other hand was mobbed all game. And I thought Kobe cleanly
knocked the ball of of Murray's hands. So stars are supposed to get the
calls? Not here folks.
-JC
Terraholm
> in article 483q8fF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/18/06 4:31 PM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> in article 480n4bF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/17/06 1:11 PM:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> I meant Smush...how would you feel about your Parker whining
>>>> constantly at the refs instead of getting back on defense?
>>>>
>>> If he was in Kobe's shoes I would understand.
>>>
>> Smush and all of them think calls are not going their way. So how
>> would you feel if Smush thought it more important to rant at the ref
>> than get back on defense and let the lakers play 4 on 5?
>>
>> Exactly what I am pointing out. You give Kobe a pass because he is
>> Kobe. He should not get a pass on a for not doing his job because he
>> is a superstar. He is hurting his team when he pulls that shit. He
>> cost the lakers the game in Portland. Between that last play and a
>> few other times portland had lay-ups while Kobe stayed in the
>> backcourt to argue with a ref. he gave the blazers several points.
>> Being at the game I saw just how bad it was because it would be off
>> camera.
>
> I hope you were watching the game today.
I was out enjoying the sun and taking pictures...=)
>If so you saw a three point
> play by the refs, late in the game, for the Cavs. What a sad, sad
> game for the officials. You just need to shut your mouth about these
> fucking officials. >
> Lamar drives and gets clobbered, Hubie Green says this is the NBA,
> their going to make you earn it with made shots. Next play Murray
> drives, slips, Kobe knocks the ball away, FOUL!!!!! What the fuck
> happened to earning it. Two FTs for Murray with 3.4 left!!!!
And you need to quit whining about bad calls as much as Kobe...there are bad calls made but I do not
see you complaining about the ones going the other way. And even a badly called game does not mean
they are out to get Kobe, let alone because they think he got away with rape...I have seen the
lakers win games on bad calls ...
>
>>>>>> The 2 'ahead' of him are Iverson and Wade. They get one more
>>>>>> attempt per 2 and 3 games. They all get about 11 per game.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly. So any one of them should complain if they get no calls
>>>>> in a half.
>>>>>
>>>> Not if they were not fouled...should the opponent automactically
>>>> have a complaint if they get a lot more than the average in a half?
>>>>
>>> If they are not truly fouled then the defense is not doing it's
>>> job. If you are known for defense and any scorer is on line to
>>> score 40 or 50 on you, you better start pushing some boundaries.
>>>
>> Absolutely not true...
>
> Just shut the fuck up.
>I'm not in the mood. Forget the damn playoffs,
Nice argument...Why are you answering me?
> I just want to see Kobe beat the crap out of one of these refs.
...And get suspended a year...that would be good....he might try exchanging cuss words in a parking
garage...that is only 7 games.
--
Laurel T
I am quite like my terriers. A thick hide, a stubborn
loyal temperament, friendly most of the time to all,
but very capable against most varmints
and a real bitch when pushed.....
Terraholm
> George Evans wrote:
>>>> If they are not truly fouled then the defense is not doing it's
>>>> job. If you are known for defense and any scorer is on line to
>>>> score 40 or 50 on you, you better start pushing some boundaries.
>>>>
>>> Absolutely not true...
>>
>> Just shut the fuck up.
>> I'm not in the mood. Forget the damn playoffs,
>
> Nice argument...Why are you answering me?
Nice snippage by the way...=)
I had answered:
Absolutely not true. The best defense is to keep the ball out of their hands if possible and failing
that to make the shot as difficult as posible without fouling. Kobe gets to 40 with about 15 FTs
usually. He is more likely to miss a FGA than 2 FTs.
You did not answer how you think that makes less sense than 'pushing some boundries'..
You think a player should start committing flagrants on a great scorer and FT shooter?
$Bill
> Well, good no-call by the refs on the Lamar play IMO. Replays showed he
> was clearly using his arm and elbow to clear space.
He wasn't clearing space, he was trying to lessen the hit he was about to get.
There was no way he wasn't going to get hit and did the natural thing to try
to maintain his balance.
> Kobe on the other hand was mobbed all game. And I thought Kobe cleanly
> knocked the ball of of Murray's hands. So stars are supposed to get the
> calls? Not here folks.
Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most of the night.
Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
JC Martin
> JC Martin wrote:
>
>
>>Well, good no-call by the refs on the Lamar play IMO. Replays showed he
>>was clearly using his arm and elbow to clear space.
>
>
> He wasn't clearing space, he was trying to lessen the hit he was about to get.
> There was no way he wasn't going to get hit and did the natural thing to try
> to maintain his balance.
Well, you can't ask a ref to call a foul on one player when both players
initiate contact at the same time. I see your point though.
>>Kobe on the other hand was mobbed all game. And I thought Kobe cleanly
>>knocked the ball of of Murray's hands. So stars are supposed to get the
>>calls? Not here folks.
>
>
> Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most of the night.
> Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
Worst I've seen, that's for sure.
-JC
George Evans
jcma...@sonic.net wrote on 3/19/06 12:47 PM:
You may be right about the Lamar play. The point is that the refs bailed the
Cavs out like the announcers said they never do in the NBA.
George Evans
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/19/06 2:17 PM:
<snip>
> And you need to quit whining about bad calls as much as Kobe...there are bad
> calls made but I do not see you complaining about the ones going the other
> way. And even a badly called game does not mean they are out to get Kobe, let
> alone because they think he got away with rape...I have seen the lakers win
> games on bad calls ...
Since you didn't watch the game you don't know. Not just once or twice, but
a number of times Kobe drove, was hammered, no foul call. It got so obvious
the announcers began commenting on it. They were talking about how much
punishment he had to endure.
Go find someone who taped the game and watch it. Until then I'm not
interested in discussing this anymore.
George Evans
George Evans
ne...@SPAMOLAtodbe.com wrote on 3/19/06 6:31 PM:
I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a complete
officiating breakdown. When they called him on that last reach his only
reaction was an expression of humorous incredulity.
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 4863jiF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/19/06 2:17 PM:
>
> <snip>
>
>> And you need to quit whining about bad calls as much as Kobe...there
>> are bad calls made but I do not see you complaining about the ones
>> going the other way. And even a badly called game does not mean they
>> are out to get Kobe, let alone because they think he got away with
>> rape...I have seen the lakers win games on bad calls ...
>
> Since you didn't watch the game you don't know.
What do you not understand about what I wrote above? Did I argue they were good calls?
Not just once or
> twice, but a number of times Kobe drove, was hammered, no foul call.
> It got so obvious the announcers began commenting on it. They were
> talking about how much punishment he had to endure.
>
> Go find someone who taped the game and watch it.
ESPN taped it. I will tape it tonight. But bad calls do not a conspiracy make...others have pointed
out bad calls the other way.
>Until then I'm not
> interested in discussing this anymore.
Fine do not answer, especially if you are going to snip out all of the actual BBall discussion and
go off on the foil hat stuff anyway.
--
"Last year, there was perhaps no greater moment
in sports than seeing Rasheed Wallace stand
triumphant next to seething NBA commissioner
David Stern." David Zirin
Terraholm
> in article 3KOdnULNz-dnjoPZ...@adelphia.com, $Bill at
>> Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most of
>> the night. Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
>
> I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a
> complete officiating breakdown.
As he was getting his 13th T?
Terraholm
>> I hope you were watching the game today.
>
> I was out enjoying the sun and taking pictures...=)
http://terraholm.com/photos/egrettwist.jpg
George Evans
jcma...@sonic.net wrote on 3/19/06 8:25 PM:
> $Bill wrote:
>
>> JC Martin wrote:
>>
>>> Well, good no-call by the refs on the Lamar play IMO. Replays showed he was
>>> clearly using his arm and elbow to clear space.
>>>
>> He wasn't clearing space, he was trying to lessen the hit he was about to
>> get. There was no way he wasn't going to get hit and did the natural thing to
>> try to maintain his balance.
>
> Well, you can't ask a ref to call a foul on one player when both players
> initiate contact at the same time. I see your point though.
On one play Kwame bit on an up fake, jumped straight up, and the shooter had
to move three feet forward to get contact Cassell style. They didn't have
any trouble calling *that* a foul.
>>> Kobe on the other hand was mobbed all game. And I thought Kobe cleanly
>>> knocked the ball of of Murray's hands. So stars are supposed to get the
>>> calls? Not here folks.
>>
>> Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most of the
>> night. Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
>
> Worst I've seen, that's for sure.
Overt bias. Phil should get after this one.
George Evans
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 12:14 AM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 3KOdnULNz-dnjoPZ...@adelphia.com, $Bill at
>
>>> Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most of
>>> the night. Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
>>
>> I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a
>> complete officiating breakdown.
>
> As he was getting his 13th T?
That was the three point play by the officials. Kobe was double teamed and
massacred by both players right in front of a ref. Oh, and yes, Kobe did
stay behind to protest, so be sure a slap his hand for that.
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 4876j6F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 12:14 AM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> in article 3KOdnULNz-dnjoPZ...@adelphia.com, $Bill at
>>
>>>> Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most
>>>> of the night. Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
>>>
>>> I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a
>>> complete officiating breakdown.
>>
>> As he was getting his 13th T?
>
> That was the three point play by the officials. Kobe was double
> teamed and massacred by both players right in front of a ref. Oh, and
> yes, Kobe did stay behind to protest, so be sure a slap his hand for
> that.
Certainly sounds understandable... (but not calm and collected. =))
There is a point when taking a T can help, but Phil Jackson should have taken it...especially when
Kobe is getting close to being suspended for Ts.
JC Martin
Now you know seen Ms. Know-It-All (without the information to back it
up) in action. Anyway, the game was obviously poorly officiated and
Kobe was short-changed on most of the calls. People who put forth
arguments on a game they didn't even watch are complete morons in my book.
-JC
JC Martin
We agree for a change. Absolutely. Kobe saw the writing on the wall
and just went with it. But the refs completely took away his inside game.
-JC
JC Martin
> George Evans wrote:
>
>>in article 4876j6F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 12:14 AM:
>>
>>
>>>George Evans wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>in article 3KOdnULNz-dnjoPZ...@adelphia.com, $Bill at
>>>
>>>>>Apparently not Kobe - and not this set of refs - they sucked most
>>>>>of the night. Worst officiated game I've seen possibly all year.
>>>>
>>>>I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a
>>>>complete officiating breakdown.
>>>
>>>As he was getting his 13th T?
>>
>>That was the three point play by the officials. Kobe was double
>>teamed and massacred by both players right in front of a ref. Oh, and
>>yes, Kobe did stay behind to protest, so be sure a slap his hand for
>>that.
>
>
> Certainly sounds understandable... (but not calm and collected. =))
> There is a point when taking a T can help, but Phil Jackson should have taken it...especially when
> Kobe is getting close to being suspended for Ts.
*LOL God, you're a moron.
-JC
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 7:17 AM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 4876j6F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 12:14 AM:
>>
>>> George Evans wrote:
>>>> I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a complete
>>>> officiating breakdown.
>>>>
>>> As he was getting his 13th T?
>>>
>> That was the three point play by the officials. Kobe was double teamed and
>> massacred by both players right in front of a ref. Oh, and yes, Kobe did stay
>> behind to protest, so be sure a slap his hand for that.
>>
> Certainly sounds understandable... (but not calm and collected. =)) There is a
> point when taking a T can help, but Phil Jackson should have taken
> it...especially when Kobe is getting close to being suspended for Ts.
Thank you for that small concession. The egret was nice. Your photo?
George Evans
George Evans
jcma...@sonic.net wrote on 3/20/06 8:36 AM:
> George Evans wrote:
<snip>
>> I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a complete
>> officiating breakdown. When they called him on that last reach his only
>> reaction was an expression of humorous incredulity.
>>
> We agree for a change. Absolutely. Kobe saw the writing on the wall and just
> went with it. But the refs completely took away his inside game.
Spooky.
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 487vc8F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 7:17 AM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> in article 4876j6F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 12:14 AM:
>>>
>>>> George Evans wrote:
>
>
>>>>> I thought Kobe was amazingly calm and collected in the midst of a
>>>>> complete officiating breakdown.
>>>>>
>>>> As he was getting his 13th T?
>>>>
>>> That was the three point play by the officials. Kobe was double
>>> teamed and massacred by both players right in front of a ref. Oh,
>>> and yes, Kobe did stay behind to protest, so be sure a slap his
>>> hand for that.
>>>
>> Certainly sounds understandable... (but not calm and collected. =))
>> There is a point when taking a T can help, but Phil Jackson should
>> have taken it...especially when Kobe is getting close to being
>> suspended for Ts.
>
> Thank you for that small concession.
I thought about giving you a T for cussing at me but thought you were not ready to be kidded...=)
>The egret was nice. Your photo?
I took it yesterday morning when I was out shooting images instead of watching the lakers game.
Hard to take BBall seriously this year...
--
Laurel T
"They run like deer, jump like deer
and think like deer."
Charles Barkley on the blazers
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 9:47 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 487vc8F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 7:17 AM:
<snip>
>>> Certainly sounds understandable... (but not calm and collected. =)) There is
>>> a point when taking a T can help, but Phil Jackson should have taken
>>> it...especially when Kobe is getting close to being suspended for Ts.
>>>
>> Thank you for that small concession.
>>
> I thought about giving you a T for cussing at me but thought you were not
> ready to be kidded...=)
I am ashamed.
>> The egret was nice. Your photo?
>>
> I took it yesterday morning when I was out shooting images instead of watching
> the lakers game. Hard to take BBall seriously this year...
That was a three pointer.
George Evans
Terraholm
> in article 489ikmF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 9:47 PM:
>
>> George Evans wrote:
>>
>>> in article 487vc8F...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 7:17 AM:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> Certainly sounds understandable... (but not calm and collected.
>>>> =)) There is a point when taking a T can help, but Phil Jackson
>>>> should have taken it...especially when Kobe is getting close to
>>>> being suspended for Ts.
>>>>
>>> Thank you for that small concession.
>>>
>> I thought about giving you a T for cussing at me but thought you
>> were not ready to be kidded...=)
>
> I am ashamed.
Do not be, I was not offended, you were a fan upset by a game and this is after all usenet. Vent
away...
>
>>> The egret was nice. Your photo?
>>>
>> I took it yesterday morning when I was out shooting images instead
>> of watching the lakers game. Hard to take BBall seriously this
>> year...
>
> That was a three pointer.
Did not place in the contest last night at the camera club's meeting...I placed third with a
different image that I do not like as well with 19 points (3 judges and a 1-9 scale) ...like
refereeing it is a subjective decission thingy...oh well
--
Laurel T
You can tell a gelding,
you can ask a mare,
but you must discuss it with a stallion.
-unknown horseman
George Evans
terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/21/06 3:08 PM:
> George Evans wrote:
>
>> in article 489ikmF...@individual.net, Terraholm at
>> terrahol...@hotmail.com wrote on 3/20/06 9:47 PM:
>>
>>> George Evans wrote:
<snip>
>>>> The egret was nice. Your photo?
>>>>
>>> I took it yesterday morning when I was out shooting images instead of
>>> watching the lakers game. Hard to take BBall seriously this year...
>>>
>> That was a three pointer.
>>
> Did not place in the contest last night at the camera club's meeting...I
> placed third with a different image that I do not like as well with 19 points
> (3 judges and a 1-9 scale) ...like refereeing it is a subjective decission
> thingy...oh well
See, you have something in common with Kobe. Bad refs. :-)
George Evans