The real issue is Dan Warthen

[Beach Runner]

Usually young pitchers improve. Not under Dan Warthen.

I can not think of one pitcher that has improved under his coaching.
The team has the pitching ability to lead the majors and the number of
injuries and inability for them to perform is shocking.

This has been going on for ages.

The Mets aren't losing because of where Collins is playing batters. Heck
they scored 8 runs the other day. The offense clearly did their job.

Predictably, this group was filled with criticisms of Collins playing
Reyes, not using enough young position players. That's not the problem.
Position players are not losing all the games.

Their potential legendary pitching staff is literally the worst in the majors.

Collins is dealing with an incredible number of injuries, and he may not
make the best choices for relief, but what does he have to choose from? Those are all short term choices.

The long term problem, not just this year but over the years is Warthen. No one improves, they all either get injured or go degrade.

He should be the first to go. Frank Viola could come right in and does great with young pitchers.

The pitchers are throwing too hard and have inconsistent command and mechanics. I think every starting pitcher has had injuries. There is one commonality.

[ruben safir]

On 05/15/2017 09:00 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
> Usually young pitchers improve. Not under Dan Warthen.

the problem is Collins who burned out the ballpen

[jess...@gmail.com]

Giving Collins 2 lefty relievers is big mistake. It guarantees they use 4 pitchers a game for situational use. The rest of the pen gets used up in most games by the 8th inning or so. The Mets starters are so short, you need LONG relievers, not all these specialists.

[ruben safir]

On 05/16/2017 12:25 AM, jess...@gmail.com wrote:
> Giving Collins 2 lefty relievers is big mistake. It guarantees they use 4 pitchers a game for situational use. The rest of the pen gets used up in most games by the 8th inning or so. The Mets starters are so short, you need LONG relievers, not all these specialists.
>

yeah that is a start and I thinking that when he was taken Blevin out of
the game today

[tmp]

I'd agree with making Viola the pitching coach. Alderson is typically slow to make these kind of changes - and that's usually a good thing - but the pitching staff is looking so desolate these days, that it won't be long before he's pretty much forced to do something.

Not that I think it's *all* Warthen's fault. The staff has finished near the top of the league in ERA the last two seasons, with the team's ERA in 3.50 range both times. But with so many of their starters having continuous problems running up these high pitch counts, which ends up over-burdening the bullpen, it seems to me that it's time for a new voice. Maybe Viola can help some of these guys where Warthen has been unable to.

[ruben safir]

On 05/16/2017 11:50 AM, tmp wrote:
>
> I'd agree with making Viola the pitching coach.

at the least

[Beach Runner]

No one said he was the sole issue. The Mets starters had some great ERAs in the past and some hard throwing relievers.

But, they came up GREAT. The pitchers didn't improve like they do under other pitching coaches.

Name me some pitchers that became better under Wathen?

On the other hand, how about listing all the one's injured?

The Mets do not have a starting pitcher that hasn't had some type of injury,
unless you take Gsellman, and he's too new to the team for Warthen to have worked his magic.

[ruben safir]

On 05/16/2017 01:46 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
> Name me some pitchers that became better under Wathen?

Degrom for one, but we have had significant discussions about Wathems
coaching years ago and found it wanting. I suppose the saving grace he
has is that he is not Rick Petersen

[tmp]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 1:46:43 PM UTC-4, Beach Runner wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 9:25:08 AM UTC-7, ruben safir wrote:
> > On 05/16/2017 11:50 AM, tmp wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd agree with making Viola the pitching coach.
> >
> >
> > at the least
>
> No one said he was the sole issue. The Mets starters had some great ERAs in the past and some hard throwing relievers.
>
> But, they came up GREAT. The pitchers didn't improve like they do under other pitching coaches.
>
> Name me some pitchers that became better under Wathen?
>

OK, here's a few to think about:

1) When Familia first came up, he was known to have a great arm, but he was wild with high ERAs. But he developed into a good setup man, and then a top closer under Warthen during the 2014 through 2016 seasons.

2) When deGrom first came up, he was definitely not heralded as a superstar starting pitcher. In fact, they brought him and Montero up at the same time in 2014 and were going to use Montero as a starter and use deGrom to help out in the bullpen. But deGrom ended up in the rotation, and had strong seasons in 2014 and 2015 under Warthen.

3) Harvey had a 3.68 ERA for triple-A Buffalo in 2012, and a 4.53 ERA for double-A Binghamton in 2011. When he was brought up in 2012, he was thought to be a potential solid starter in the majors, but not a superstar ace. But he blossomed at the major league level under Warthen until he got hurt in 2013. He also pitched very well in 2015 (people forget this), despite the controversy about his innings limit when coming back from TJ surgery.

4) Syndergaard noticeably improved in 2016, as compared to his 2015 rookie season.

Just saying they didn't all come up GREAT and then get destroyed by Warthen. It's not that simple. It never is with pitching. But enough bad things have happened now under Warthen that I agree that it makes sense to try another coach.

[Beach Runner]

You're describing the natural development of a pitcher adjusting to the major leagues. The first year or so. I'm talking about the continued development
of the pitching, and staying healthy. Every pitcher you mentioned is injured.

Eventually, his pitcher's decline, even while in their prime years.

[tmp]

And you're making an assertion that can't be proven - that Warthen is responsible for these pitchers getting hurt.

[Beach Runner]

Actually, he is the one commonality. There is an excellent article on the Mets training and injuries.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/19404194/new-york-mets-injury-issues-go-far-disabled-list

[Beach Runner]

Here's the actual story.


BEFORE Noah Syndergaard registered his first triple-digit radar gun reading this season or Yoenis Cespedes launched his first light-tower home run, the New York Mets stars pushed their bodies to the limit in the weight room.

Syndergaard opened a window into his offseason workout program in an interview with Men's Fitness magazine, which chronicled his fondness for "squat heavy'' days and a protein-heavy diet highlighted by venison, buffalo, sweet potato hash, avocado and an egg-laden concoction known as the "Bowl of Doom.'' As if a 98-mph fastball weren't lethal enough, Syndergaard concluded he could take his game to even greater heights by reconfiguring his body and throwing even harder.

"Noah Syndergaard added 17 pounds of muscle this offseason,'' blared the Men's Fitness headline in February. "Now he's stronger than ever.''

Cespedes, who signed a $110 million contract in November, also embraced the bigger-is-better philosophy. During a March 4 video segment with ESPN's Jessica Mendoza, he lifted 990 pounds while using a Kaatsu band, a device that moderates blood flow during exercise. In the video, Cespedes attacks a massive stack of weights with encouragement from Mets strength and conditioning coordinator Mike Barwis, who pumps him up with the exhortation "come on, Vin Diesel'' before his first rep.

So how did all that grunting and sweating work out? Syndergaard, a fastball-throwing machine, won't be throwing heat until after the All-Star break as he recuperates from a partially torn lat muscle. And Cespedes, who went on the disabled list April 28 with a strained left hamstring, hopes to return to action during a homestand next week.

As the Mets struggle to overcome the injuries, it's impossible to pinpoint precisely where things went awry. Drawing a straight line from Point A to Point B and declaring a training regimen directly responsible for an injury is a dangerous and risky proposition.

EDITOR'S PICKS

Are the Mets through without Thor?
As Noah Syndergaard hits the DL, the Mets can either wait for him to return or make a bold move -- but even a major splash might not save New York now.

How much will the Mets miss Thor?
The Mets' hopes depend on Noah Syndergaard, but what happens if his stint on the DL runs long? Plus, a look at the impact for each MLB team if it lost its best pitcher.
But the results clearly aren't what anyone in Flushing had envisioned and have helped perpetuate a reputation for chaos that the Mets would love to put in the past.

When Syndergaard left the mound in pain and closer Jeurys Familia went down with a blood clot in his shoulder, it forced tortured Mets fans to relive the concussion issues incurred by Ryan Church and Jason Bay, Jose Reyes' run of hamstring injuries, the soap opera surrounding David Wright's spinal stenosis and a lengthy run of pitching injuries in recent years.

General manager Sandy Alderson and other Mets officials contend that the team is singled out for excessive scrutiny by the New York media and criticized for garden-variety issues that might earn other teams a pass. But interviews with multiple baseball sources debunk the perception that the Mets are simply unlucky. Those sources shared insights that suggest it might be time for the Mets to engage in some serious introspection in several facets of their operation.

Multiple people familiar with the Mets' operation -- most of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity -- say the team has a less-than-optimal command structure that allows routine problems to fester until they become major conflagrations. Too often, the Mets' approach leads to communication breakdowns, mixed signals or a lack of trust between the team and its players.

"It's the same old, same old mistakes,'' one industry source said. "The Mets are a successful, profitable organization. But no organization, over a protracted period of time, has more significant players on the disabled list. There's a failing across the board. And what changes have been instituted, if any?''

The media guide resumes are impressive enough. Head athletic trainer Ray Ramirez has 25 years of experience in the majors with the Mets and Texas Rangers and nine seasons in the minors before that. Dr. David Altchek, the Mets' medical director, is a respected surgeon whose New York office is on a short list with Dr. James Andrews and Dr. Neal ElAttrache as a go-to destination for pitchers with arm injuries.

But Altchek, with his busy practice at the Hospital for Special Surgery, is not a regular presence at Citi Field. And Barwis, the top strength and conditioning employee, works out of an office in Port St. Lucie, Florida, and is primarily responsible for training players in the offseason.

"Ultimately, these areas of expertise and coordination fall under my responsibility. It's not Jeff or Dr. Altchek or Mike Barwis. Whether it's coordination, or we're sending guys to the right rehab facility, or we have the right people visiting players in the offseason, this is all my responsibility."
General manager Sandy Alderson
So who's in charge? Multiple sources said the lack of a single medical point person allows for greater involvement by COO Jeff Wilpon in areas where he's lacking in professional expertise. They describe Wilpon as a micromanager who creates an environment in which the Mets simply whipsaw from one crisis to the next and are too often governed by how their decisions will be publicly perceived.

"Jeff gets in the middle of everything that's going on, and he ends up doing more damage,'' said a person who has been involved in the Mets' internal operation. "He meddles. I can't come up with a more appropriate term.''

While Alderson concedes the Mets have room for improvement, he disputes the notion that Altchek isn't at the ballpark enough, or Wilpon is too involved in the medical and strength and conditioning operation, or Barwis' training methods have been less than effective.

"David Altchek does our minor and major league surgeries,'' Alderson said. "He has a particular role, and the rest of our professional medical staff is a function of that. We do not have any single doctor here continually, but we have orthopedic coverage every night.

"With respect to Jeff, I would not say he's heavily involved in the medical side. He is sort of marginally involved, as any owner would be. Ultimately, these areas of expertise and coordination fall under my responsibility. It's not Jeff or Dr. Altchek or Mike Barwis. Whether it's coordination, or we're sending guys to the right rehab facility, or we have the right people visiting players in the offseason, this is all my responsibility.''



General manager Sandy Alderson and the Mets have faced ongoing injury issues that have kept some of New York's brightest stars off of the field. Alex Trautwig/Getty Images
HOW SHOULD A medical department be judged? Keeping players productive and on the field seems like a reasonable place to start.

By that definition, the Mets are hardly MLB's biggest offenders. According to the website www.ManGamesLost.com, the Los Angeles Dodgers led MLB clubs with 7,169 games missed because of injury from 2010 to 2016. The Rangers, Boston Red Sox, San Diego Padres, Oakland Athletics and Philadelphia Phillies were next in line, while the Mets ranked seventh with 5,545 games lost to the disabled list.

As industry experts point out, DL days can be deceptive. One or two Tommy John surgeries in a season can skew results, and some players are going to suffer injuries that are beyond a team's control.

"Nothing you do from a strength and conditioning standpoint can prevent a guy from getting hit by a pitch and breaking his hand, or running into a wall trying to make a catch and cracking his ribs,'' said Mike Boyle, a longtime strength and conditioning coach who held the position for the 2013 world-champion Boston Red Sox. "It's different if you're looking at things of a soft-tissue nature. If you're doing a good job there, the general trend should be a decrease.''

New York's young pitching rotation of Syndergaard, Matt Harvey, Jacob deGrom, Steven Matz and Zack Wheeler poses particular challenges -- just as the "Generation K'' trio of Bill Pulsipher, Paul Wilson and Jason Isringhausen posed challenges in the 1990s.

"We know that young pitchers get hurt more. We know that hard-throwing pitchers get hurt more. So is it really that surprising that a bunch of young, hard-throwing guys end up with a bunch of injuries?'' said Will Carroll, a longtime sports medicine writer who now works for Motus, a company specializing in wearable technology to provide biomedical analysis for athletes. "It's like driving a bunch of Ferraris against a bunch of Honda Accords. The Ferraris are going to win every time, but they're going to spend half the time in the shop, while that Honda keeps motoring along.''

The Mets attract a lot of attention because of the high-profile players they've lost to injury. According to Nathan Currier of ManGamesLost.com, the Rangers and Mets lost more wins above replacement to the DL than any other teams between 2010 and 2016. Only the Rangers lost a higher percentage of their payroll to the disabled list during that period.

Team Payroll Lost To DL (2011-2016)
TEAM PAYROLL DL DAYS DL DOLLARS % OF SALARY ON THE DL
Texas Rangers $619.5 million 8,365 $179.5 million 29.0%
New York Mets $652.4 million 6,561 $160.5 million 24.6%
Cincinnati Reds $465.1 million 5,620 $105.5 million 22.7%
Los Angeles Dodgers $1.19 billion 8,466 $258.5 million 21.7%
St. Louis Cardinals $716.5 million 5,367 $147.5 million 20.6%
Philadelphia Phillies $910.9 million 5,776 $182.9 million 20.1%
New York Yankees $1.08 billion 7,777 $218.1 million 20.0%
San Diego Padres $468.1 million 8,111 $90.7 million 19.4%
San Francisco Giants $880.8 million 5,026 $160.7 million 18.2%
Boston Red Sox $1.032 billion 6,700 $183.4 million 17.8%
Sources: Cot's Baseball Contracts, Man-Games Lost and Major League Baseball
Meanwhile, FiveThirtyEight's Rob Arthur used a different set of calculations and determined that the Dodgers lead the majors with 42.8 games in WAR to injury from 2010 to 2017, and the Mets are eighth at 32.8.

The damage varies from year to year. In 2014, the Mets lost 426 games to the DL. They fired strength and conditioning coach Jim Malone and named Barwis as their new senior adviser for strength and conditioning, a position he still holds today, and their DL days more than tripled from 426 to a National League-high 1,332 in 2015 before dipping to 886 in 2016.

Through the end of the past week, the Mets had amassed a total of 179 games lost to the 10-day disabled list this season, according to ManGamesLost.com's weekly report. That total was the fifth highest in baseball behind the Dodgers, Rockies, Red Sox and Los Angeles Angels.


The Mets' most effective hitter since joining the team in 2015, Yoenis Cespedes has been on the disabled list with a hamstring injury since April 27. AP Photo/Laurence Kesterson
A PHILADELPHIA NATIVE, Barwis made a name for himself as strength and conditioning coach for Rich Rodriguez at West Virginia and Michigan before his college football ties led him to the Mets. Fred Wilpon, the Mets' chairman of the board, is a devoted Michigan alumnus. According to a 2014 New York Times story, his son Jeff met Barwis on the sidelines during a Michigan football practice in 2008. The two struck up a friendship, and Barwis joined the Mets as a consultant in 2011.

Barwis has a big personality. His personal pep talks are long on motivation, and he has been at the forefront of the use of "neuropriming'' headphones that stimulate the part of the brain responsible for muscle movement. In 2014, Barwis attained a heightened profile by training Seattle Seahawks defensive back Richard Sherman and other football players on a show called "American Muscle'' that aired on the Discovery Channel.

"I think Mike does a good job of training athletes -- especially football, because that's his background'' said an industry associate who asked to speak on the condition of anonymity. "But that doesn't mean it always translates to baseball.''

Within the strength and conditioning community, Barwis is a lightning rod because of some of his methods and his unorthodox arrangement with the Mets. In the winter of 2014-15, a mini-controversy erupted amid reports that Mets players were required to pay to work out at Barwis' facility in Florida. While the Mets insisted that players were under no pressure to use Barwis' gym and the money went toward his rent rather than into the team's pocket, some professionals questioned the appropriateness of the arrangement.

"It's an unusual setup, to be sure, but I'm not against it just because it's different,'' Carroll said. "My question would be whether it's effective. I actually think baseball should do a lot more experimentation, but it all comes down to results. When those aren't there, everything else has to be questioned. I think the Mets have to be at that point now."

Barwis has a flair for showmanship that some of his peers find off-putting. In one segment of his show "American Muscle,'' former big-leaguer Nick Swisher emerges from a garage, stands in the snow and flings a beer keg more than 12 feet. The camera then shifts to Barwis, who observes that Swisher has been having difficulty hitting because he's not properly loading with his hips.

Even strength and conditioning professionals who are loath to critique their peers look askance at that particular video.

"I am unaware that visual inspection of a keg toss has ever been shown as a valid tool to comment and intervene upon a major league baseball player's swing,'' Dr. Charlie Weingroff, a physical therapist who has worked extensively with NBA teams, said in an email. "Using a more ergonomically efficient tool like a [medicine ball], sandbell, discus, shot put, even a hammer could provide a much safer environment to train rotary power.''

Boyle, who has worked in the field at the professional, collegiate and Olympic levels since the 1980s, was similarly taken aback by the sight of Swisher throwing a keg in the snow amid freezing temperatures.

"If you look at the techniques you see in 'American Muscle,' they're unusual for baseball players,'' Boyle said, "and some of them might not be safe with multimillion-dollar athletes. I don't know Mike Barwis. I haven't met him. But the internet videos do not paint a real flattering picture.''

Barwis was unavailable for comment for this story, but several people in the Mets organization say there's a different, more caring and committed side to him beyond the self-promotional side displayed in his videos. Barwis works with disabled children at his Florida facility and was active in helping Al Jackson after the former Mets pitcher suffered a stroke in 2015.

"We don't rely on Mike for hitting mechanics,'' Alderson said. "We do rely on Mike for the physiology of the relationship between the hips, the back, the shoulders, etc., etc. Those are all kinetically connected.

"Mike is one of the best additions we've made the last two to three years. There's always somebody on the outside who's going to bitch and moan about somebody on the inside because they don't like the fact he's new. You can talk to our old strength and conditioning coaches, and they're good guys. But my guess is they're going to have something nasty to say about Barwis or the current people we have here. That's the way things are.''



When Jeurys Familia was placed on the disabled list on May 13, it left the Mets without their Opening Day starter, their best hitter and their closer. Brad Penner/USA TODAY Sports
THE METS ARE navigating the same changing landscape as teams in all professional sports. Baseball has been especially challenged to come to grips with the strength and conditioning surge, which keeps pushing players to be stronger and faster in ways that can test their physiological limits.

Syndergaard's winter workout regimen produced considerable second-guessing. While he claims to have added 17 pounds of muscle, the Mets said he actually reported to spring training a mere 3 pounds heavier than the previous season.

The hysteria went up several notches when Syndergaard passed on a request to undergo a precautionary MRI three weeks ago. On April 30, he threw 34 pitches in a 23-5 loss to the Washington Nationals before departing with a lat injury.

Could the Mets have taken a harder stance and told Syndergaard he wouldn't be allowed to pitch unless he consented to the test?

"That's a fair question to ask,'' Alderson said. "It mirrors a statement that I made to Noah himself. I said, 'OK, if you don't want the MRI, we'll decide when you pitch next.' Then we had him pitch a side session, and his symptoms had diminished, and we allowed him to pitch.

"Some people think this got to be a confrontation, and it really wasn't. In retrospect, it would have been nice to have the MRI. Would that have shown the lat was subject to a potential tear? We'll never know. Any time there's an injury, you can go back and second-guess everything. We try to go back and see if there needs to be some systemic change in what we're doing. That certainly has happened over the last few weeks.''

As the disabled list stints by Syndergaard and Cespedes drag on, it's only natural to ask how much responsibility players assume for their individual training regimens. Was it admirable for Syndergaard and Cespedes to keep pushing when they might have been better served taking a step back and admitting they weren't 100 percent? And what's the balance between teams babysitting players and giving them the latitude to train their own way?

"It's all suggestions,'' Mets outfielder Jay Bruce said. "Nobody's putting a gun to your head. In the offseason, I semi-follow what the team says. But I have my own work regimen that I've built for 10-12 years now. It's a team sport, but there's so much individuality that it's tough to put anything on one person or one way of doing things.''

If Wilpon, Alderson and the Mets decide to take a comprehensive look at their operation and make changes, they have plenty of examples to follow. In 2013, Baltimore Orioles vice president of baseball operations Brady Anderson oversaw what the team described as a shift in their strength and conditioning "culture." Later that year, the Yankees made some sweeping changes in response to a disappointing season. Two years ago, the Nationals overhauled their own medical structure after an injury-filled season.

In recent years, the Houston Astros and Pittsburgh Pirates are among the teams that have hired directors of performance or sports scientists to help facilitate the flow of information between departments. Alderson said the Mets are exploring that possibility.

"Having a director of performance sciences is a relatively new idea that's been adopted by a handful of teams,'' Alderson said. "It makes sense to have someone who coordinates all of the various training and rehabilitation disciplines. That's something we certainly are looking at on an ongoing basis and may be considering in the future. In the meantime, that coordination is being done with the personnel we have, and I feel that coordination has worked well.''

In Weingroff's experience with NBA teams and Canada's national basketball team, successful franchises devise strategies that account for six variables: medical treatment, fitness, sleep, nutrition, psychology and load management, which gauges how much strain athletes can handle as they recover from injury. For an NBA player, that might mean minutes in a game. For a pitcher, it could mean a preordained number of pitches.

"The teams that do this well have a staff that acts as a single organism, that asks the right questions and finds the solutions,'' Weingroff said. "There are ways of measuring the fatigue or readiness of the body on a daily basis, and that's how we predict things. If the sum of the parts is going to be greater than the whole, everybody has to think in a similar way.''

Similarly, when the process breaks down, it's beyond the power of a single person to correct.

"You can have the best people in place and they can all be doing the right thing,'' Carroll said. "But if you're not all rowing in the same direction, you're just going to get conflicting information and do the wrong things. Until you're on the same page, you're going to waste the effort and hurt the players.''

The Mets' 2017 season is in jeopardy, in part, because of the damage they've suffered through injuries to their best pitcher, hitter and closer. Will they attribute the loss of Syndergaard, Cespedes and now Familia to more bad luck, or use the setbacks as motivation to take an exhaustive look at their operation? If they want to come up with the right answers, they might have to start asking themselves some more probing questions.

[Hass]

Nice article...you mean having telephone poles for legs isn't a good thing for sudden sprints on the basebaths or in the outfield? Who woulda thunk? :)

[tmp]

Which proves absolutely nothing. Another commonality is that they are all younger pitchers who throw hard. Here's an excerpt from the article you posted the link to:

"We know that young pitchers get hurt more. We know that hard-throwing pitchers get hurt more. So is it really that surprising that a bunch of young, hard-throwing guys end up with a bunch of injuries?'' said Will Carroll, a longtime sports medicine writer who now works for Motus, a company specializing in wearable technology to provide biomedical analysis for athletes. "It's like driving a bunch of Ferraris against a bunch of Honda Accords. The Ferraris are going to win every time, but they're going to spend half the time in the shop, while that Honda keeps motoring along.''


>

> http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/19404194/new-york-mets-injury-issues-go-far-disabled-list

Actually, I had just been reading that article before I saw your post and was going to post the link myself. It's an interesting piece.

My main argument for replacing Warthen is not the injuries. It would be the hope that Viola (or whoever they bring in) could help some of these guys learn to pitch more efficiently with lower pitch counts. High pitch counts have been a constant problem for Wheeler from the beginning, and now Harvey and deGrom are fighting it too.

[ruben safir]

On 05/18/2017 10:36 AM, tmp wrote:
>
> "We know that young pitchers get hurt more. We know that hard-throwing pitchers get hurt more. So is it really that surprising that a bunch of young, hard-throwing guys end up with a bunch of injuries?'' said Will Carroll, a longtime sports medicine writer who now works for Motus, a company specializing in wearable technology to provide biomedical analysis for athletes. "It's like driving a bunch of Ferraris against a bunch of Honda Accords. The Ferraris are going to win every time, but they're going to spend half the time in the shop, while that Honda keeps motoring along.''

The thing is that that is bullshit.

What does that mena that young pitchers get hurt and hard throwers get hurt?

I just got done reading a whole article about Joe Kelly and his
adjustment to pitching in relief to pitching all out all the time.

These guys aren't pitching, they just throw all out until the damn arms
fall off. They have the "Mechanics" down perfectly now, with no more
hooks, no more rareing back, no more kicks, just the fucking tendons pop
like guitar strings.

Lugo has the highest spin rate of any curve in MLB. Is that necessary
all the time?

No no no
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/goold-who-really-won-cards-startling-lackey-craig-trade-with/article_5881dfd5-2ea7-5527-b895-33cc9da78466.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

The righthander has been a lightning bolt out of the bullpen this season
for Boston – throwing the fastest pitch of the season (102.2 mph) and
serving as a setup man for uber-closer Craig Kimbrel. In 16 appearances
this season, Kelly is 2-0 with a 1.89 ERA and 10 strikeouts in 19
innings. He hasn’t lost a game for Boston since he started 25 games for
the Red Sox in 2015. Overall, he’s 20-8 for Boston with a 4.49 ERA and,
for context, a 95 ERA+ (100 is average). He’s throwing 254 2/3 innings
in 71 games (41 starts).

“Even my repertoire has changed,” Kelly said. “Here, I was trying to
throw two-seamers at the bottom of the zone. Now it’s completely
opposite. I’m a reliever, and as a starter it wasn’t max-effort on every
pitch. I’m trying to get after it on the mound now. Hard curveballs.
Hard sliders. Hard fastballs.”

Kelly, 28, has also altered his mechanics from the Cardinals days. He’s
shorter. More compact. He shifted them to see if he could limit shoulder
soreness that dogged him as a starter. He wanted to create less strain
on the joint without sacrificing power, and so far this season he’s been
able to do that. He, Trevor Rosenthal, and Aroldis Chapman are three of
the leaders when it comes to pitches at 99 mph or swifter so far this
season.

[Beach Runner]

I agree with Rueben here. Having the fastest spin rate, or the fastest fast ball is NOT necessary to use every or most pitchers. Great pitchers that pitch for years, win a lot of games change speeds, emphasize location, play head games, field their position, not just throw as freaking hard as they can on every pitch.

What is really ironic, we have no idea what kind of pitcher Syndergaard will return as, Harvey after the same surgery has sucked. The irony, Bill Dickey, may end up pitching for more years following the trade for Syndergaard, and who'd of thought that? And, that's following his previous years of experience. Of course, we hope he recovers.

Lots of hard throwers had long careers relatively free of injuries. Just look at the HOF.

Pitcher's need to learn how to pitch effectively, not simply overpower a hitter on every pitch. The idea is to set the hitter up, and then, the unhittable pitch comes. Not every pitch. Thus, yes pitchers may improve their first year or 2 adjusting to the majors, but that's it for the Mets.

Great pitchers adjust and focus on command and control. The freaking radar gun should be banned. Movement on a fastball is more important than speed anyways.

The human body is essentially a machine, and with modern strength conditioning, they can exceed the limits of soft connective tissues. It's simple engineering.

[ruben safir]

On 05/18/2017 01:08 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:12:08 AM UTC-7, ruben safir wrote:
>> On 05/18/2017 10:36 AM, tmp wrote:
>>>

>>> "We know that young pitchers get hurt more. We know that hard-throwing pitchers get hurt more. So is it really that surprising that a bunch of young, hard-throwing guys end up with a bunch of injuries?'' said Will Carroll, a longtime sports medicine writer who now works for Motus, a company specializing in wearable technology to provide biomedical analysis for athletes.. "It's like driving a bunch of Ferraris against a bunch of Honda Accords. The Ferraris are going to win every time, but they're going to spend half the time in the shop, while that Honda keeps motoring along.''

Syndergard is not having surgery at all, and certainly not having a rib
removed,

> The irony, Bill Dickey, may end up pitching for more years

Not bad for a dead catcher...

> following the trade for Syndergaard, and who'd of thought that? And, that's following his previous years of experience. Of course, we hope he recovers.
>
> Lots of hard throwers had long careers relatively free of injuries. Just look at the HOF.
>
> Pitcher's need to learn how to pitch effectively, not simply overpower a hitter on every pitch. The idea is to set the hitter up, and then, the unhittable pitch comes.

The inside slider has been taken away from the pitchers which is not
helpful. The one thrown AT the batter and breaks over the plate.

> Not every pitch. Thus, yes pitchers may improve their first year or 2 adjusting to the majors, but that's it for the Mets.
>
> Great pitchers adjust and focus on command and control. The freaking radar gun should be banned. Movement on a fastball is more important than speed anyways.
>
> The human body is essentially a machine, and with modern strength conditioning, they can exceed the limits of soft connective tissues. It's simple engineering.
>

especially without steroids...

[tmp]

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:08:26 PM UTC-4, Beach Runner wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:12:08 AM UTC-7, ruben safir wrote:
> > On 05/18/2017 10:36 AM, tmp wrote:
> > >
> > > "We know that young pitchers get hurt more. We know that hard-throwing pitchers get hurt more. So is it really that surprising that a bunch of young, hard-throwing guys end up with a bunch of injuries?'' said Will Carroll, a longtime sports medicine writer who now works for Motus, a company specializing in wearable technology to provide biomedical analysis for athletes. "It's like driving a bunch of Ferraris against a bunch of Honda Accords. The Ferraris are going to win every time, but they're going to spend half the time in the shop, while that Honda keeps motoring along.''
> >
> >
> > The thing is that that is bullshit.
> >
> > What does that mena that young pitchers get hurt and hard throwers get hurt?

I thought it was pretty clear. It's just another point of view. Nobody knows all the answers.

<snip>

> What is really ironic, we have no idea what kind of pitcher Syndergaard will return as, Harvey after the same surgery has sucked.

I think Noah will be quite surprised to hear that he has had surgery for
thoracic outlet syndrome (as Harvey did), when his actual injury was a torn lat muscle.

> The irony, Bill Dickey, may end up pitching for more years following the trade for Syndergaard, and who'd of thought that?

This is getting too confusing to debate with you. But Bill Dickey (catcher) has dead for over 20 years now. I'd say that Noah, even with a torn lat, would have a better fastball.

<snip>

[Beach Runner]

Sorry, going from the top of the head. It was two similar avoidable arm injuries by young Met aces. And wrong Dickey, but only RA Dicky was traded for Syndergaard. That's what makes it so ironic, Dicky was the aged vet and Syndergaard a young prospect that came and amazed.

"R.A." Dickey who may actually continue pitching longer than Syndergaard if he doesn't come back.

Right, Syndergaard had a torn lat, I was thinking that other pitchers have had Harvey's surgery, and some have not come back, The procedure has had mixed results for major-league pitchers. Beckett and Young both came back and resumed their careers, while others such as Jeremy Bonderman and Noah Lowry were never the same.

Here is a great article on torn lats. People that have used these people
have never had a lat injury.

https://ericcressey.com/pitching-injuries-lat-strains

[ruben safir]

On 05/19/2017 12:17 PM, tmp wrote:
>>> What does that mena that young pitchers get hurt and hard throwers get hurt?
> I thought it was pretty clear. It's just another point of view. Nobody knows all the answers.

Old pitchers, if they survive, also get hurt, and that is why I'm very
skeptical of this sentence. The older pitchers are already the ones
that are weeded out as being able to take the physical abuse and the of
course suffer injuries. Injuries are part and parcel of pitching.

[tmp]

> Sorry, going from the top of the head. It was two similar avoidable arm injuries by young Met aces.

So, is thoracic outlet syndrome preventable, and what exactly should Dan Warthen have done to prevent it from happening to Harvey last year? I mean, this is what you've been saying, right? That these injuries are Warthen's fault?

> Right, Syndergaard had a torn lat, I was thinking that other pitchers have had Harvey's surgery, and some have not come back, The procedure has had mixed results for major-league pitchers. Beckett and Young both came back and resumed their careers, while others such as Jeremy Bonderman and Noah Lowry were never the same.
>
> Here is a great article on torn lats. People that have used these people
> have never had a lat injury.
>
> https://ericcressey.com/pitching-injuries-lat-strains

Ok, for lat injuries like Syndergaard's, here's a couple of quotes from that article that did make some sense:

"Whether it's a chronic or traumatic onset lat issue in a pitcher, one theme always seems to hold true: symptoms emerge after a dramatic increase in throwing stress."

"Sometimes, it may come about after a single outing with an abnormally high pitch count. The pitcher just can't bounce back in time for the next start, and the subsequent start becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back."

Ok, let's look at what happened in Syndergaard's case. In his first 3 starts this year, he threw an average of 92 pitches per start. Then in his 4th start, he threw 114 pitches against Philly. That's an increase of 22 pitches over his previous 3 game average. He had no problems during that game, but he then experienced discomfort with his bicep after throwing between starts. So he ended up not pitching again until 10 days after the 114 pitch game. And that's when he came out after 34 pitches with the lat injury.

Ok, so according to that article, a large increase in pitch count can be a problem for the lat muscle. So on the assumption that the damage was done in that 114 pitch start, what should Warthen have done to prevent the injury? Taken him out sooner in that game? And at what pitch count should he have done that?

Of course, the obvious thing is that he should have an MRI before making another start, but that's not exactly 100% Warthen's call. The training staff, the manager, and the GM all get involved in that. If anything, I'd have to hang that one on the GM Alderson. But then again, the damage may already have been done anyway.

Whatever. I'm not defending how effective he is as a pitching coach. But I do have a problem with blaming him for these injuries, as you have been doing.

[ruben safir]

On 05/20/2017 10:32 AM, tmp wrote:
> Ok, so according to that article, a large increase in pitch count can be a problem for the lat muscle. So on the assumption that the damage was done in that 114 pitch start, what should Warthen have done to prevent the injury? Taken him out sooner in that game? And at what pitch count should he have done that?

114 pitches is not a high pitch count. And if they are trained
correctly they would be able to throw 130 pitches without incident.

> "Whether it's a chronic or traumatic onset lat issue in a pitcher, one
> theme always seems to hold true: symptoms emerge after a dramatic
> increase in throwing stress."

Throwing stress is what happens then you push you velocity to 101MPH,
especially early in a game.

Is this Wathans fault? Indeed, and it seems to be industry wide.

Some guys can't pitch. They physically can't do it and driving everyone
to a 100 pitch count because of this is not a solution to keeping
pitchers off the DL. And extending their career is no even a
consideration. Players who pitch do not always have long careers... so
what.

Tim Lincecum should have traded in his Cy Young years for years of
mediocrity?

How about Matt Cain? Barry Zito? How about Earlier days?

Ron Guidry is trading 77-81 for a mediocry career because MAYBE he might
pitch until he is 20. Guidry actually throw 21 Complete games in 1983
with a 5.3WAR

No, they are fucking these pitchers up be not letting them throw and
they are winding them up too tightly so they are injury prone. The
result is crap baseball and pitcher who lost track of the most important
thing about getting on that mound. They get on that mound to win. The
de-emphasis of the Win is negatively affecting the game in every aspect.


There is another aspect to the game that is causing injuries. The games
take to long. The pitchers are cooling off on the bench through
insanely long innings, and then need to warm back up. Its no good.

[Beach Runner]

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 8:32:21 AM UTC-7, ruben safir wrote:
> On 05/20/2017 10:32 AM, tmp wrote:
> > Ok, so according to that article, a large increase in pitch count can be a problem for the lat muscle. So on the assumption that the damage was done in that 114 pitch start, what should Warthen have done to prevent the injury? Taken him out sooner in that game? And at what pitch count should he have done that?
>
>
> 114 pitches is not a high pitch count. And if they are trained
> correctly they would be able to throw 130 pitches without incident.
>
>
> > "Whether it's a chronic or traumatic onset lat issue in a pitcher, one
> > theme always seems to hold true: symptoms emerge after a dramatic
> > increase in throwing stress."
>
> Throwing stress is what happens then you push you velocity to 101MPH,
> especially early in a game.
>
> Is this Wathans fault? Indeed, and it seems to be industry wide.

I don't know that this specific injury was Wathan's fault. It's the fact that EVERY starter has had arm injuries and now Familia.

Now I remember why I confused Harvey's surgery with Syndergaard, this wierd
surgery is the same one Familia is getting.

So, when everyone is going down with injuries, I was in Mission Critical Techie Support. And when all the problems have a common core, that's probably the reason.

>
> Some guys can't pitch. They physically can't do it and driving everyone
> to a 100 pitch count because of this is not a solution to keeping
> pitchers off the DL. And extending their career is no even a
> consideration. Players who pitch do not always have long careers... so
> what.
>
> Tim Lincecum should have traded in his Cy Young years for years of
> mediocrity?
>
> How about Matt Cain? Barry Zito? How about Earlier days?
>
> Ron Guidry is trading 77-81 for a mediocry career because MAYBE he might
> pitch until he is 20. Guidry actually throw 21 Complete games in 1983
> with a 5.3WAR
>
> No, they are fucking these pitchers up be not letting them throw and
> they are winding them up too tightly so they are injury prone. The
> result is crap baseball and pitcher who lost track of the most important
> thing about getting on that mound. They get on that mound to win. The
> de-emphasis of the Win is negatively affecting the game in every aspect.

Yes, their muscles and arms should be loose, their fascia and other connective tissues should not be bunched up. The body should be looked at
from an engineering perspective, and all the tissues should be loose and flexible or they will tear. If the hamstrings are tight, the person can feel it in the shoulders for example.

>
>
> There is another aspect to the game that is causing injuries. The games
> take to long. The pitchers are cooling off on the bench through
> insanely long innings, and then need to warm back up. Its no good.

That is a point. Jackets between innings help or technologies.

[Beach Runner]

Is Thoracic Outlet syndrome preventable. The better question, are there a lot of injuries related to tight connective tissues and too much stress, which means bad mechanics. In a broad sense it appears so.

What is weird is several Mets have had it.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vascular/diseases/TOS.html
and
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/home/ovc-20237878

Th

Poor posture. Slouching and drooping shoulders or forward head position can cause increased tension in the side neck muscles and stretching of the nerves, leading to compression in the thoracic outlet.
Muscle enlargement e.g. increased muscle bulk at the neck and shoulders from weight lifting can increase susceptibility to compression of the thoracic outlet.

Common causes of thoracic outlet syndrome include physical trauma from a car accident, repetitive injuries from job- or sports-related activities.

And is a torn lat muscle preventable. Here the Daily News calls it "so preventable"

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/noah-syndergaard-headed-dl-partial-tear-lat-muscle-article-1.3123054

I am concerned that both Syndergaard and Matz had the same injury, just as Familia, Harvey both had the same condition. Too many coincidences.


To put into perspective how devastating an injury this can be, Steven Matz missed just over two months with a partially torn lat muscle in 2015. He felt the issue during his start July 5 at Dodger Stadium and he did not pitch again until Sept. 6.

And what is so frustrating is that in hindsight Syndergaard's injury seemed so preventable, or predictable.

Syndergaard had complained of "discomfort" in his "biceps/shoulder" area last week. The righty was scratched from a scheduled start on Thursday with what the team said was "biceps tendinitis." Though team doctors recommended an MRI, Syndergaard declined. The 24-year-old reasoned that he felt better on the medicine he had been taking, anti-inflammatories, and he did not feel the need to have the exam.

Who's the coach and manager?

[tmp]

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 3:27:13 PM UTC-4, Beach Runner wrote:
> On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 8:32:21 AM UTC-7, ruben safir wrote:
> > On 05/20/2017 10:32 AM, tmp wrote:
> > > Ok, so according to that article, a large increase in pitch count can be a problem for the lat muscle. So on the assumption that the damage was done in that 114 pitch start, what should Warthen have done to prevent the injury? Taken him out sooner in that game? And at what pitch count should he have done that?
> >
> >
> > 114 pitches is not a high pitch count. And if they are trained
> > correctly they would be able to throw 130 pitches without incident.
> >
> >
> > > "Whether it's a chronic or traumatic onset lat issue in a pitcher, one
> > > theme always seems to hold true: symptoms emerge after a dramatic
> > > increase in throwing stress."
> >
> > Throwing stress is what happens then you push you velocity to 101MPH,
> > especially early in a game.
> >
> > Is this Wathans fault? Indeed, and it seems to be industry wide.
>
> I don't know that this specific injury was Wathan's fault. It's the fact that EVERY starter has had arm injuries and now Familia.

And right now, the Angels have 4 starting pitchers on the DL. Obviously, the entire sport/industry has much to learn. But singling out Warthen is simply jackrabbit troubleshooting.

>
> Now I remember why I confused Harvey's surgery with Syndergaard, this wierd
> surgery is the same one Familia is getting.

It's NOT the same condition as Harvey's, and was NOT the same surgery. It *was* performed by the same surgeon. Familia had a blood clot removed. He did NOT have a rib removed like Harvey did, and he did not have thoracic outlet syndrome like Harvey did. See quote below at this link:

http://nypost.com/2017/05/12/jeurys-familia-has-surgery-on-blood-clot-season-in-jeopardy/

"Dr. Robert Thompson performed the surgery to remove the blood clot from Familia in St. Louis, and before the Mets’ 7-4 loss to the Brewers, Alderson said he was still unclear about the procedure involved. But Alderson said Familia did not have thoracic outlet syndrome — an ailment that ended Matt Harvey’s season last July."

If you're going to pass yourself off as an expert, please at least get your damn facts straight.

[tmp]

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 11:32:21 AM UTC-4, ruben safir wrote:
> On 05/20/2017 10:32 AM, tmp wrote:
> > Ok, so according to that article, a large increase in pitch count can be a problem for the lat muscle. So on the assumption that the damage was done in that 114 pitch start, what should Warthen have done to prevent the injury? Taken him out sooner in that game? And at what pitch count should he have done that?
>
>
> 114 pitches is not a high pitch count. And if they are trained
> correctly they would be able to throw 130 pitches without incident.

The point was that it was a large *increase* from what he had been doing in his previous starts. And the start just before that one, he threw 87 pitches, so the 114 game was an increase of 27 pitches.

>
>
> > "Whether it's a chronic or traumatic onset lat issue in a pitcher, one
> > theme always seems to hold true: symptoms emerge after a dramatic
> > increase in throwing stress."
>
> Throwing stress is what happens then you push you velocity to 101MPH,
> especially early in a game.

Which is what Syndergaard did in that game when he got injured, probably trying to prove he was OK. He was throwing 100 in the first inning.

>
> Is this Wathans fault? Indeed, and it seems to be industry wide.

I can agree (but not prove) that part of the problem is training, but I just have a problem with singling out Warthen for the injuries, when 99% of the coaches who might replace him would do pretty much the same things. And of course, you will never eliminate pitching injuries, but hopefully reduce them.

Do you think Viola would improve the training and reduce injuries? If not, who would you hire? Mazzone?

[ruben safir]

On 05/22/2017 09:26 AM, tmp wrote:
>> 114 pitches is not a high pitch count. And if they are trained
>> correctly they would be able to throw 130 pitches without incident.
> The point was that it was a large *increase* from what he had been doing in his previous starts. And the start just before that one, he threw 87 pitches, so the 114 game was an increase of 27 pitches.
>

I knew you were going to say that I I strongly disagree. The additional
20 pitchers is NOTHING.

He he ramped up 60 pitches I can understand. But 20 pitchers for a
trained athlete so be of no significant consequence.

[ruben safir]

On 05/22/2017 09:26 AM, tmp wrote:

>> Throwing stress is what happens then you push you velocity to 101MPH,
>> especially early in a game.
> Which is what Syndergaard did in that game when he got injured, probably trying to prove he was OK. He was throwing 100 in the first inning.
>

I think that is exactly right. But additionally, his strength training
is not keeping up with his endurance and stretching train. It is
possible that you just can't throw a baseball that hard without blowing
up your arm.

And they need to stay warm. There is too much of break between innings
and they cool off on the bench.

[ruben safir]

On 05/22/2017 09:26 AM, tmp wrote:

> Do you think Viola would improve the training and reduce injuries? If not, who would you hire? Mazzone?

Do I think so, I think so, but that is based on hearsay and watching
from a distance. Actually, I think they should have Backman and Viola.

What do I know. They seemed to have understood all these players
including Conforoto.

[ruben safir]

>

I knew you were going to say that I strongly disagree. The additional
20 pitchers is NOTHING.

If he ramped up 60 pitches I can understand. But 20 pitchers for a
trained professional athlete should be of no significant consequence.

Maybe for fun they should teach them all the knuckleball.