The young fans think this is the worst team, they don't know what bad is. A look back to 1965

[Beach Runner]

While everyone agrees this has been a horrible year.
The fact is, there are promising rookies to watch develop,
and we wait for the return of some great starters.
They have the money to sign a few players to fill their holes
and we have every reason to believe they will be headed to the post season
next year.


Now, back in the early 60s, there was not wait till next year. There were no exciting prospects.

Take 1965, the Mets lost over 100 games. It was a much better team than the 62 Mets.

Their pitching was led by an old Jack Fisher and Al Jackson, who had a little talent. No one in relief could pitch. Jack Fisher was 8-24 and the only pitcher with an ERA under 4. They said you had to be a pretty good pitcher to lose 24 games.

At 2nd they did have a young Run Hunt breaking in, who's claim to fame was that he could get hit by the ball more than almost anyone. He never turned into a star or even solid player.

The catching position was manned by Chriss Canazaro, who hit something like .189. They also had Choo Choo Coleman, but he was even worse.

First base manned by a young Ed Kranpool, this slugger led the team with a .253 batting average and an incredible 10 home runs, while being slow a shit.

They did sign Roy McMillan, a good short stop, but long past his prime. Not a player to look for improvement, as he was already going down hill. The announcers loved to praise his defense, there was so few positive things to say about the Mets. He was 35 if that tells you something about building for the future.

Ron Swoboda did show promise, he hit 19 home runs. But he never became any kind of a star, famous for one catch rather than years of power hitting.

That was the king of power. Jim Hickman was next at 16.

And, yet we loved the Mets. We filled their parks. We rooted for the impossible. That was then. I grew up with the Mets went to the World's Fair where they would later build Shea.

I remember Baseball Digest each year did a team by team review for the upcoming year. I remember only one line about the Mets "Like the rest of the team, the bench is weak."

Please keep that in mind when you look at the Mets.

Cespedes will be back, Conforto will be back. Syndergaard, Degroom, and a collection of other starters that have shown when healthy, they can excel.
They have Rosario who looks like a future superstar, TJ keeps hitting, Palawki looks 100% better. They have some really talented relief pitchers.
Flores rakes left handed pitching. Nimo looks good. Larges is playing well.

Regardless, there's lots of hope for their current players, if they stay healthy, and they will spend the extra to put them back into the post season. They have a ton of potential excellent starters, but as I've always said, you never have enough starting pitching.

Put that into your perspectives who tended to start following the Mets in 68 or 86. We call them fair weather fans.

[ruben safir]

On 09/07/2017 09:55 AM, Beach Runner wrote:
> Please keep that in mind when you look at the Mets.

maybe that is not the way I feel about it.

[ruben safir]

On 09/07/2017 09:55 AM, Beach Runner wrote:

> Regardless, there's lots of hope for their current players, if they stay healthy, and they will spend the extra to put them back into the post season. They have a ton of potential excellent starters, but as I've always said, you never have enough starting pitching.

what killed this team was the pitching and the relief corps. The staff
gave up runs at a pace I never experienced I haven't looked at the
entire team yet in order to review them, but I think they give this team
too much credit for its pitching. It is just not there


Montero
Geller
Lugo
Wheeler
Matz
Syndergaard
Degrom
Harvey


No one of them have ever won more that 14 games.

Not one has pitched 200 innings

The are a COMBINED 152-125 which is a 551 winning percentage.

I believe every one of them has had an arm injury. They have ONE
pitcher with an WAR over 1.0

and the minor league cubbard is bare.

[tmp]

Well, at least deGrom should pitch 200+ innings this year, *if* he can finish the year without injury.

But as far as the future goes, until proven otherwise, the "great" pitching staff that they thought they had is history. They will be lucky if they can put together a starting rotation that can finish in the top half of league in ERA in the next few years. Too many of these guys are either seriously compromised by their injury histories, or just aren't that good to begin with.

Even if 3 or 4 of them can potentially pitch well enough as a group to do that (say Syndergaard, deGrom, Matz, Gsellman), they will still need to prove that they can take the mound often enough so that it even matters.

[tmp]

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 5:02:20 PM UTC-4, ruben safir wrote:

> On 09/07/2017 09:55 AM, Beach Runner wrote:
> > Regardless, there's lots of hope for their current players, if they stay healthy, and they will spend the extra to put them back into the post season. They have a ton of potential excellent starters, but as I've always said, you never have enough starting pitching.
>
> what killed this team was the pitching and the relief corps. The staff
> gave up runs at a pace I never experienced I haven't looked at the
> entire team yet in order to review them, but I think they give this team
> too much credit for its pitching. It is just not there

It's true the pitching was horrible, but also the defense killed them - and that made their weak pitching staff look even weaker. I can't remember them ever having a worse defensive infield than they did this year.

[Ruben Safir]

tmp <tmps...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 5:02:20 PM UTC-4, ruben safir wrote:
>> On 09/07/2017 09:55 AM, Beach Runner wrote:
>> > Regardless, there's lots of hope for their current players, if they stay healthy, and they will spend the extra to put them back into the post season. They have a ton of potential excellent starters, but as I've always said, you never have enough starting pitching.
>>
>> what killed this team was the pitching and the relief corps. The staff
>> gave up runs at a pace I never experienced I haven't looked at the
>> entire team yet in order to review them, but I think they give this team
>> too much credit for its pitching. It is just not there
>>
>>
>> Montero
>> Geller
>> Lugo
>> Wheeler
>> Matz
>> Syndergaard
>> Degrom
>> Harvey
>>
>>
>> No one of them have ever won more that 14 games.
>>
>> Not one has pitched 200 innings
>>
>> The are a COMBINED 152-125 which is a 551 winning percentage.
>>
>> I believe every one of them has had an arm injury. They have ONE
>> pitcher with an WAR over 1.0
>>
>> and the minor league cubbard is bare.
>
>
> Well, at least deGrom should pitch 200+ innings this year, *if* he can finish the year without injury.
>

he hasn't done it yet

[Beach Runner]

Well Syndergaard threw a second minor league start, and was throwing 97-100 mph on his fast ball, and 90 on his slider.

Degroom lost a few games, he's having an awesome season.

Montero seems like he is finally using his stuff.

Lugo and Gsellman was force fed to the majors and both a pitching again.

Familia is back, and throwing well.

Harvey is even throwing again, though not with his old stuff.

Matz is unknown, maybe he belongs in the Pen?

Robles is young, throws hard, and still improving.

They added a number of potential bull pen arms.

The staff WOEFULLY underperformed. Statistically, they fell at the
lowest end of a bell curve.

It's not likely a year like this will be repeated, with 9/10th of the starters getting injured.

There's nothing to stop them from adding another starter.

They have a future star at Short Stop, Rosaario
Stars in Cespadas, Conforto (He'll be back), both Larges and Nimmo are hitting.

I like Rosario playing next to Reyes, who plays a slick 2nd base. He has much to teach Rosario who remains rough in the field, and on the bases. Rosario has raw athleticism to really hit, cover ground, but he needs to become more selective at the plate and stop double clutching his throws. Major league pitchers are taking advantage of his free swinging. He makes some good contact, as he shrinks the zone he'll be much more potent.


Plawecki has surprised me with his improvement in plate discipline. He's a completely different hitter. Perhaps he will break out. He even is running the bases better.

I'm not sold that Dominick Smith is either ready or the answer for First base. I prefer Flores batting against left handers. This could be a target for a free agent, another real slugging first baseman to hib behind Cespadas. Better than Duda.

TJ should be able to play 2nd or 3rd. He was hitting like .290 Flores also plays passable 3rd base. Neither are exceptional.

And, then the Mets have the money for some impact players.

The staff get's a do-over next year to show what they can do.

Next year, with some serious free agent signings, updated training practices, and better health, they could bring the World Series back to New York.

A lot of their injuries seem related to out of balance training. We know how to build muscles. We know with resistance exercises our bones get stronger. But, there is a simple matter of engineering, players have developed more strength than the connective tissues can support. Thus, practically every pitcher needs TJ Surgery.

The only people that really specialize in connective tissues are Structural Integrationists, such as Rolfers. They should find the best one they can and give them a full-time position. They specialize in understanding the engineering of the human body, and the connective tissues that are involved. Exactly what the Mets need.

[ruben safir]

On 09/08/2017 10:17 AM, tmp wrote:
> Well, at least deGrom should pitch 200+ innings this year, *if* he can finish the year without injury.
>
> But as far as the future goes, until proven otherwise, the "great" pitching staff that they thought they had is history. They will be lucky if they can put together a starting rotation that can finish in the top half of league in ERA in the next few years. Too many of these guys are either seriously compromised by their injury histories, or just aren't that good to begin with.

Harvey is already gone and 28. Matz is 26, and Degrom is 29. wheeler
is 27.

BTW Degroms SO/W ratio is 3.91

[ruben safir]

On 09/08/2017 05:53 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
> Degroom lost a few games, he's having an awesome season.

how do you describe awesome?

[ruben safir]

On 09/08/2017 05:53 PM, Beach Runner wrote:

> Well Syndergaard threw a second minor league start, and was throwing 97-100 mph on his fast ball, and 90 on his slider.
>
> Degroom lost a few games, he's having an awesome season.

if he was a number 3 pitcher
365 era is nothing to brag about
The team is 16-12 in games where Degrom pitched this season and he get
over 5 runs a game in support.
The had 9 runs in 3.2 innings off his last week...the Phillies no less.
7 runs in 4 innings on May 31

>
> Montero seems like he is finally using his stuff.

we'll see

>
> Lugo and Gsellman was force fed to the majors and both a pitching again.
>

Lugo has a world class curve ball and is ineffective. Why, I have no
fucking idea. His ERA+ is 85. He walks too many hitters. And he had a
mystery injury.

> Familia is back, and throwing well.
>

HE SUCKS.. really really sucks.

> Harvey is even throwing again, though not with his old stuff.
>

Harvey is toast. I won't even go through the numbers.

> Matz is unknown, maybe he belongs in the Pen?

He belongs on the cyclones.

he is 2-7 and an ERA over 6.
Matz (elbow) was transferred to the 60-day DL on Friday, Matt Ehalt of
The Record reports.

>
> Robles is young, throws hard, and still improving.

No Robles is a Forrest fire of Eucoplytic trees. He has lost 5 games in
relief. 45% of his inherited runners SCORE. In addition he has given
up 37 hits and 26 walks resulting in an additional 23 earned runs. I
leave you the math.

>
> They added a number of potential bull pen arms.
>
> The staff WOEFULLY underperformed. Statistically, they fell at the
> lowest end of a bell curve.
>
> It's not likely a year like this will be repeated, with 9/10th of the starters getting injured.
>
> There's nothing to stop them from adding another starter.
>
> They have a future star at Short Stop, Rosaario
> Stars in Cespadas, Conforto (He'll be back), both Larges and Nimmo are hitting.

What is Nimmo hitting now?

>
> I like Rosario playing next to Reyes, who plays a slick 2nd base.

There is no way Reyes is playing 2nd base if this team expects to win.

>He has much to teach Rosario who remains rough in the field, and on the bases. Rosario has raw athleticism to really hit, cover ground, but he needs to become more selective at the plate and stop double clutching his throws. Major league pitchers are taking advantage of his free swinging. He makes some good contact, as he shrinks the zone he'll be much more potent.
>
>
> Plawecki has surprised me with his improvement in plate discipline. He's a completely different hitter. Perhaps he will break out. He even is running the bases better.
>
> I'm not sold that Dominick Smith is either ready or the answer for First base. I prefer Flores batting against left handers.

Smith is hitting below 100 at this point.

>This could be a target for a free agent, another real slugging first baseman to hib behind Cespadas. Better than Duda.
>
> TJ should be able to play 2nd or 3rd. He was hitting like .290 Flores also plays passable 3rd base. Neither are exceptional.
>
> And, then the Mets have the money for some impact players.
>

I don't want them to waste money on players if the pitching is in shambles.

[ruben safir]

On 09/08/2017 10:33 AM, tmp wrote:
> It's true the pitching was horrible, but also the defense killed them - and that made their weak pitching staff look even weaker.

Did you see those Astros. Compared to the Phillies the phillies give up
single A base hits. The Astros convert everything into outs.

[Bigsby]

For you its getting a mouthful of splooge from Frankie V.

[tmp]

Fine, but speaking strictly for myself, what I am saying is that 2017 was the worst season I have ever experienced as a Mets fan, and I started following the team in the mid 1960s.

I'm not saying they are the worst Mets team ever. I know they are not. But this has personally been my worst season ever to follow them. Worse than the mid 60s, worse than the late 70s and early 80s, worse than the mid 90s, and worse than the 2009 through 2014 period.

I don't need to detail the reasons, they are all pretty obvious; the unbelievable number and severity of the injuries, the worst infield defense I've ever seen, the decimation of the starting rotation, which in turn decimated the bullpen, and on and on and on.

I know there's some positive signs; Rosario is definitely the future at SS, and in retrospect they should have moved him up a lot sooner. I like Dominic Smith at 1B, and think he will be a productive hitter. But I also think Wilmer Flores has improved enough as a hitter now that he could also handle 1B full time next year if need be. I think Flores also can hit enough to play 3B full time, but I still don't trust his throwing from there. And Conforto made huge strides this year until that bizarre and unfortunate injury - have to hope he recovers from that OK.

We'll see - hope springs eternal - but the front office definitely has some work to do this winter.

[Beach Runner]

I will admit, while this team isn't that bad, it is the biggest dissappointment ever. Never was so much expected of the Mets, and so
little delivered.

[ruben safir]

On 09/12/2017 08:09 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
> I will admit, while this team isn't that bad, it is the biggest dissappointment ever. Never was so much expected of the Mets, and so
> little delivered.

its not just that, it is how they lose. They have no hope. They gave
up 25 fucking runs to Washington

[ruben safir]

On 09/12/2017 11:51 AM, tmp wrote:
> what I am saying is that 2017 was the worst season I have ever experienced as a Mets fan,

BY FAR.

[matt....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 9:55:07 AM UTC-4, Beach Runner wrote:

> While everyone agrees this has been a horrible year.
> The fact is, there are promising rookies to watch develop,
> and we wait for the return of some great starters.
> They have the money to sign a few players to fill their holes
> and we have every reason to believe they will be headed to the post season
> next year.
>
>
> Now, back in the early 60s, there was not wait till next year. There were no exciting prospects.
>
> Take 1965, the Mets lost over 100 games. It was a much better team than the 62 Mets.
>
> Their pitching was led by an old Jack Fisher and Al Jackson, who had a little talent. No one in relief could pitch. Jack Fisher was 8-24 and the only pitcher with an ERA under 4. They said you had to be a pretty good pitcher to lose 24 games.
>
> At 2nd they did have a young Run Hunt breaking in, who's claim to fame was that he could get hit by the ball more than almost anyone. He never turned into a star or even solid player.
>
> The catching position was manned by Chriss Canazaro, who hit something like .189. They also had Choo Choo Coleman, but he was even worse.

Oh. My. God. Did you really have to mention Choo-Choo? I have his baseball card somewhere.

>
> First base manned by a young Ed Kranpool, this slugger led the team with a .253 batting average and an incredible 10 home runs, while being slow a shit.

Given how long Ed stuck around, and what he turned into (a pinch hitter extraordinaire, and one of my favorite all-time Mets along with Bud Harrelson), I think they did ok here. And while Ed did, as a sports writer once wrote of another Met .. run like he had a piano on his back .. he could hit.

>
> They did sign Roy McMillan, a good short stop, but long past his prime. Not a player to look for improvement, as he was already going down hill. The announcers loved to praise his defense, there was so few positive things to say about the Mets. He was 35 if that tells you something about building for the future.
>
> Ron Swoboda did show promise, he hit 19 home runs. But he never became any kind of a star, famous for one catch rather than years of power hitting.
>

Swoboda wasn't a star, no. But he was famous for a lot more than his one catch. He was a pretty decent hitter, and an above average center fielder. Also just a heck of a guy, I met him once in the 60s.

> That was the king of power. Jim Hickman was next at 16.
>
> And, yet we loved the Mets. We filled their parks. We rooted for the impossible. That was then. I grew up with the Mets went to the World's Fair where they would later build Shea.
>
> I remember Baseball Digest each year did a team by team review for the upcoming year. I remember only one line about the Mets "Like the rest of the team, the bench is weak."
>
> Please keep that in mind when you look at the Mets.

LOL. I have a feeling we watched about the same games. Remember the 70s? After Seaver was gone and Craig Swan was our ace?

>
> Cespedes will be back, Conforto will be back. Syndergaard, Degroom, and a collection of other starters that have shown when healthy, they can excel.
> They have Rosario who looks like a future superstar, TJ keeps hitting, Palawki looks 100% better. They have some really talented relief pitchers.
> Flores rakes left handed pitching. Nimo looks good. Larges is playing well.
>
> Regardless, there's lots of hope for their current players, if they stay healthy, and they will spend the extra to put them back into the post season. They have a ton of potential excellent starters, but as I've always said, you never have enough starting pitching.
>
> Put that into your perspectives who tended to start following the Mets in 68 or 86. We call them fair weather fans.

This is not a bad team. The 'fire sale' was simply dumping overpriced veterans who, mostly, had no place on the team of the future. I'm kind of sorry they didn't trade Cabrera, I'd rather they had kept Walker. But that's a nit. They have most of the positions covered. The outfield is solid. First, short, and catcher are set. They have a bunch of guys to play second if it comes to that. Third is a big question mark for me, but I'm not that concerned about it.

Whether the starters come back strong is scary. DeGrom will be fine. I think Syndergaard will be fine. Harvey looks like he's starting to get it back together, he threw some nasty sliders in the last start. Beyond that? Gsellman isn't a great answer, but as a number five starter, he'd be fine. Matz? Great when he is healthy, which isn't often. Lugo? I like him, but don't see him as a number four.

Good post.

Matt

[Popping mad]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:06:40 -0700, matt....@gmail.com wrote:

> This is not a bad team

it really is because the pitching is simply terrible.

[matt....@gmail.com]

Yes, it is. But what pitching are we talking about?

Degrom has been pretty good until very recently.

The rest of the rotation really ought to be at AAA. They are doing what they can, but with a bullpen that looks like a slow pitch pitching machine they stand no chance at all.

I don't think Harvey is nearly as bad as he looks. His stuff looks pretty decent (he was hitting 96 in the last start), but his control is awful. That takes time, we'll see where he is next season.

Somehow, I don't see Lugo, Gsellman and their AA starter to be in the rotation next year.

By the way, the 'nym is interesting. I remember a Pops a year or two back ....


Matt

[Popping mad]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 12:28:06 -0700, matt....@gmail.com wrote:

> I remember a Pops a year or two back

is bruce still alive?

[tmp]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 3:28:07 PM UTC-4, matt....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:17:20 AM UTC-4, Popping mad wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:06:40 -0700, matt....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > This is not a bad team
> >
> > it really is because the pitching is simply terrible.
>
> Yes, it is. But what pitching are we talking about?
>
> Degrom has been pretty good until very recently.
>
> The rest of the rotation really ought to be at AAA. They are doing what they can, but with a bullpen that looks like a slow pitch pitching machine they stand no chance at all.
>
> I don't think Harvey is nearly as bad as he looks. His stuff looks pretty decent (he was hitting 96 in the last start), but his control is awful. That takes time, we'll see where he is next season.

And fortunately for him, he'll still make the rotation next year (assuming he's not traded) even though he can't even last 5 innings most of the time. But that's only because they don't have enough other starters who can do that either. It's not a pretty picture.

I think you're right though about Harvey. He still has enough velocity and stuff to be a winner if he can ever get his command back.

[Beach Runner]

Just to add a few thoughts.

In the teams of the 62-68, the goal was not to lose 100 games.

And, just maybe, not be in the last place as the worst team in baseball.
In 68 they actually made 9th place.

The Mets team this year is not going to lose 100 teams, are not even
the last place team in their division, and the 3rd team from the bottom
on the NL and 4 MLB teams have worse records.

So, as horrible as this team is, and they've set records for being bad,
they outclass the Mets of the 60s, even as their roster is the unwalking wounded.

They did break the 1962 record for most games lost by double digits.

[matt....@gmail.com]

God, I hope so. He and I are only a few years apart in age.

Matt

[matt....@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 9:06:47 AM UTC-4, tmp wrote:
> On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 3:28:07 PM UTC-4, matt....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:17:20 AM UTC-4, Popping mad wrote:
> > > On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:06:40 -0700, matt....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is not a bad team
> > >
> > > it really is because the pitching is simply terrible.
> >
> > Yes, it is. But what pitching are we talking about?
> >
> > Degrom has been pretty good until very recently.
> >
> > The rest of the rotation really ought to be at AAA. They are doing what they can, but with a bullpen that looks like a slow pitch pitching machine they stand no chance at all.
> >
> > I don't think Harvey is nearly as bad as he looks. His stuff looks pretty decent (he was hitting 96 in the last start), but his control is awful. That takes time, we'll see where he is next season.
>
>
> And fortunately for him, he'll still make the rotation next year (assuming he's not traded) even though he can't even last 5 innings most of the time. But that's only because they don't have enough other starters who can do that either. It's not a pretty picture.

Hard to say. Assuming that Noah comes back, and that Matz can stay healthy (ok, that one is a big if), they would have a fairly decent starting rotation. Mostly question marks, agreed, but I think they can be pretty good there. The bullpen is the biggest question mark to me.

>
> I think you're right though about Harvey. He still has enough velocity and stuff to be a winner if he can ever get his command back.

Command tends to be purely mechanical, and isn't likely to have anything to do with physical problems. When he was throwing 89-90, before the surgery, I would have believed he was done. Now, at 96 (and I think probably higher if he needs to), I think that's come back. Then again, with the big boost in speed, it likely changed his mechanics, since he was accustomed to releasing from a different point.

Matt

[ruben safir]

On 09/21/2017 11:57 AM, matt....@gmail.com wrote:
> The bullpen is the biggest question mark to me.

There is no question mark... it totally sucks.

[ruben safir]

On 09/21/2017 11:57 AM, matt....@gmail.com wrote:

> Now, at 96 (and I think probably higher if he needs to), I think that's come back.

What is the reason you believe that, Matt? Historically, the issue
isn't velocity, but movement and control, and velocity is an ++ extra.
When they over throw, the ball flattens out and they get hit. That is
what I think I see here, but I can be wrong, so I'm interested in what
your reasoning is.

[matt....@gmail.com]

You may be seeing overthrowing, but it wouldn't result in higher velocity. The problem
here seems to be that while the ball is coming out of his hand as easily as it always did,
the release point and angle are completely messed up. This is a purely mechanical problem
not a physical one. Movement and control come as he gets his mechanics back and there is
really no reason that the hundreds of hours of film available won't show what he's doing wrong.
Hard to say what it might be, but with pitchers, it is usually the legs, not the arms, that cause
mechanical issues. Pushing off slightly wrong, being off balance, not having the legs and arms
at the right point at the right time, these would cause the things we are seeing.

Earlier in the year, he had virtually no velocity, and no control either. The velocity is coming
back, and likely will increase yet again, and I believe the control will too. Will it take months?
No idea.

Matt

[Beach Runner]

As I've stated, they need great pitching coaches that can analyze his mechanics and correct changes.

He'll have to adjust to being more crafty, but he has the experience.

He should get another chance.

[ruben safir]

On 09/22/2017 07:17 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
> As I've stated, they need great pitching coaches that can analyze his mechanics and correct changes.
>
> He'll have to adjust to being more crafty, but he has the experience.
>
> He should get another chance.

in Oakland or Colorado

[Popping mad]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:05:20 -0400, ruben safir wrote:

> The bullpen is the biggest question mark to me.
>
>
> There is no question mark... it totally sucks.

I think Wheeler is the solution to the ballpen

[matt....@gmail.com]

I watched him on Saturday. He was starting to get a feel for the slider. Still opening wide up on the fastball, causing it to have no motion at all. The curveball he threw looked good, not sure why he didn't throw more of them. That might be an issue with the surgery? I don't know.

Yes, I think he can make it back. All the way? I doubt it. There have been few pitchers as good as Matt at his healthiest prime.

Matt