Harbor Freight Solar Panels...What are they good for?
Too_Many_Tools
Harbor Freight offers, I see both good and bad comments.
In what situation would a Harbor Freight solar panel setup be the
right choice for implementing solar power?
TMT
BobG
$200 or $4 a watt. Compare to maybe a couple of 100W panels that cost
$500 ea in the same area... about $5 a watt, but more watts per square
foot, if that is important. The area occupied is only important in
certain situations, so lots of HF panels on a big roof will generate
electricity just like the more expensive panels.
bea...@gmail.com
1) Present for a ten year old.
2) Science project for school
3) Where, after proper sizing and design, it was found that HF panel
kit would fill the need.
But honestly. 10 - 175 Watt panels vs 117 - 15 Watt panels?
spaco
I'm trying to figure that out myself.
Here in western Wisconsin, so far we haven't had many sunny days in
Novemeber or December, so nobody's panels are going to do them much good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My two summary observations so far:
At this time of year, I can get (collect) about 1/3 of the collectors
rated power for about 6 hours per day, on a relatively sunny day.
That's about 15 watts X 6 hours or 90 watt hours.
On a cloudy day at this time of year, I can collect about 3 watts per
hour for about 6 hours, for a total of 18 watt hours.
--------------------------------------------------------
Note that I said "collect", not store, because there are losses in the
process of storing and retrieving the power. So, if you subtract about
25% of the "collected" energy, you have left the amount of power that
you'd have available for your use.
It appears to me that right where I live, this year, I get about 1 sunny
day out of 5. I'm certain that it's a bad idea to take such a short
data gathering peroid and extrapolate it to "forever", but----- you get
to decide whether it has any value or not.
So---- for the months of December and probably Januaary as well, here goes:
1 in 5 sunny days, so:
out of 30 days,
6 X 90 watt hours = 540 watt hours
24 X 18 watt hours = 432 watt hours
for a total of 972 watt hours, almost one kilowatt, but
reduce that by 25% and you got:
about 486 watts to use from a winter month of collection from the Harbor
Freight kit. This is about 1/2 kiowatt, which is about 5 cents worth of
electricity.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you ask, what's it good for?
Well, you could use it in a backwoods cabin, where you have no grid
connection. If you went there in December, you could run the two 5
watt flourescent lights that come in the kit for 48 hours.
You could probably run an electric fence charger out in the
boonies, even through the winter months to keep the cattle in a remote
pasture.
If you had a battery that didn't mind being discharged completely
every day, you could run a bunch of those small driveway lights every
night until the battery went dead.
Or you could use it to maintain the charge in a number of vehicle
batteries, given an appropriate charger (the controller that comes with
the kit will certainly do a fine job of maintaining one car size battery
and then some.
If you were going to camp in an RV in the summer time, you'd be
getting a lot more stored power than this, so you might utilize the HF
kit to good advantage keeping an RV battery charged, even allowing for
some limited PC and TV use (with an inverter).
Maybe the higher system output likely during the other 3 seasons of
the year will yield other ideas, but if you were going to "worst case"
a year-round application, you'd have to base it on the worst solar scenario.
New at this solar thing, but not new to electrons,
Pete Stanaitis
--------------------------
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>As I read the various discussions concerning the solar panels that
>Harbor Freight offers, I see both good and bad comments.
Most who own them describe the package as an OK deal, nothing special,
about what anyone should expect for the price. There's only one guy
with any truly "bad" comments, and that's Ghio, who's written dozens
of posts dissing KillaWatts as well. Why would he carp about such
low-cost items when he has no personal experience with either, and
particularly since the KaW is such an undeniably good value and wildly
popular? Because Spence owns both, and has called Ghio onto the carpet
many times for dispensing wisdumb.
>In what situation would a Harbor Freight solar panel setup be the
>right choice for implementing solar power?
If you're buying enough PV to power a home, then you can get a
competitive price at lots of places. Close to $4 per watt here for
example http://beyondoilsolar.com/solarpanels.htm.
But if you only want a small quantity, which is frequently the case
for those looking to gain some hands-on experience, then the HF kit is
a pretty small investment. I've seen it as low as about $150 when it's
on sale and combined with the 15% off coupons that HF occasionally
offers. In addition, HF is pretty good about returns etc., and the
company is a known quantity for many. The kit should be an easy sale
on Ebay later if desired. This one http://tinyurl.com/38whwy went for
$95 recently.
Wayne
spaco
http://www.spaco.org/HF45WattKit1108.jpg
I compressed this pic down to about 15K so it would be easy for
anybody to load. LOTS higher resolution is available upon request.
I simple offer this graph to show that the controller seems pretty
sensitive to changes in sunlight and does a good job IMHO of toggling
"off" when the battery is full.
The voltage excursions up into the 20+ volt area are when the
controller open-circuits the collector.
Pete Stanaitis
------------------------
bea...@gmail.com
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:11:08 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> >As I read the various discussions concerning the solar panels that
> >Harbor Freight offers, I see both good and bad comments.
>
> Most who own them describe the package as an OK deal, nothing special,
> about what anyone should expect for the price. There's only one guy
> with any truly "bad" comments, and that's Ghio, who's written dozens
> of posts dissing KillaWatts as well. Why would he carp about such
> low-cost items when he has no personal experience with either, and
> particularly since the KaW is such an undeniably good value and wildly
> popular? Because Spence owns both, and has called Ghio onto the carpet
> many times for dispensing wisdumb.
As I have said on many occasions. Watt meters are only as good as the
use they are put to.
wayne claims to own two, and yet, for the last ten years has been
unable to cite a coherent set of data as to what his system produces
or uses.
For wayne, a watt meter is a party trick. He pulls it out to impress
people. And yet, has no idea what to do with the data provided.
Steve has called me on the use of watt meters as well. With the same
result. No real numbers for what he claims to have done.
In both cases the owning of watt meters is the same as owning a toy.
There is no other way to put it.
Used correctly good value, used as a party trick a waste of money.
Solar Flare
Currently in use:
rH//phlctErse//Digi//AuqtyJack//A{nty//.Hfress//Pixie//Lectron_Nuis//M
II//Venlig Hilsen//You//wmbjk//Marc_F_Hult//William P.N.
Smith//Aunt}K//9 foot 3//5 foot 2//5feet-24inches//You//Digi//
//<.>" <<.>@mine.net//Me//ferret//lé.ÞeemÞ//®Hæress//�H�ss
//PurriePrPr//colin//.Hfress//frug//Taz//Tazoar//T@z//dob.a.TROLL//P.BENGI//Digi//JohnTuttle//.Haress//GimmieButt//John
Latelee//Eunty JEck//Aunty Jack//Bunty Jack//Thunnus Albacarus//Gimmie
Bob//Pizza Girl//Mrs
Marples//anonymous//helga//wingnut//Nemisis.0.GimmeButt//JimmyB0ND//Paul
Vader//windows.embroidery.Gymmy//John P
Bungle//Shyl0rk//Shyl0rk//Hatunen//Lectr0Nuis//LectroQuis//slew_m//BugHunter//fant0m//KazAdz//Gabriel//tictactoe//guesswho//f00//nope//stuphn.Tulip.Bulbs.up.de.Dyke.Diver//windows.embroidery.Gymmy//Judge_Dread//de.troll.is//snuph.m//
...AND a miriad of other munged versions of the above//
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:47eln35hsk8nb1uff...@4ax.com...
Too_Many_Tools
Well that has been my assessment so far...if the HF system provides
the amount of total power you need then it IS a good solution.
The argument that the detractors commonly use is to greatly increase
the electrical need and then condemn the HF offering for not supplying
it...an argument that in turn can be used to condemn their solution.
Then they use the increased area/mounting costs angle to detract from
the HF system...again missing the point.
When one buys "better" panels for approximately the cost of the HF
system..what is the profit margin that the supplier makes?
This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
their profit margin.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
Thanks
TMT
wmbjk...@citlink.net
If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
See
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/e7b4029455afd062,
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm and
http://www.lowexpecations.com/. Apparently the strategy of using
volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
Wayne
Solar Flare
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:rfe4o3ddk9c99hjmu...@4ax.com...
bea...@gmail.com
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
> >> their profit margin.
>
> >> TMT
>
> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>
> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
> volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
> effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
>
> Wayne
Sorry to burst your bubble wayne, but, I've sold more panels than you
will ever see.
In OZ the margin is between 25% to 40% mark upon the wholesale price.
For the most part the HF kits are just toys.But , for the record what
I have already said was:
1) Present for a ten year old.
2) Science project for school
3) Where, after proper sizing and design, it was found that HF panel
kit would fill the need.
But honestly. 10 - 175 Watt panels vs 117 - 15 Watt panels?
And the book still sells.
bea...@gmail.com
> Such a positive person with something real to say.
>
> http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm
I like that one. But, not totally applicable. You see I do remember
where it all started.
wayne came to these groups touting his "Look what I did" web site.
So I had a look.
I pointed out that the numbers did not add up and asked for a better
accounting of the systems performance.
Weeelll, wayne went right off.
At one point he even said that, if one more person said that the
numbers didn't add up he would pull his site.
I mean, honestly, what did he think was going to happen? Anyway he
pulled his site for a couple of weeks and since than it has been like
a yoyo.
The funny thing is, that after nearly ten years, wayne has still not
been able to provide a coherent set of numbers for his systems
performance.
All he has left in his sad life is his little hate site.
>
> <wmbjkREM...@citlink.net> wrote in message
Too_Many_Tools
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
> >> their profit margin.
>
> >> TMT
>
> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>
> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
> volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
> effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
>
> Wayne
try defining "competitive"
HF is selling LOTS of those panel kits.
So are they "competitve"?
TMT
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jan 7, 9:08 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>>
>> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
>> >> their profit margin.
>>
>> >> TMT
>>
>> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>>
>> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
>> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
>> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
>> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
>> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
>> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
>> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/e7b4029455afd062,
>> http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm and http://www.lowexpecations.com/.
>>Apparently the strategy of using
>> volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
>> effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
>>
>> Wayne
>
>try defining "competitive"
How about, "within 10% of the lowest price available for a
substantially similar product"?
>HF is selling LOTS of those panel kits.
>
>So are they "competitve"?
Sure. But that's not the point. Why do you believe that "sellers" are
bashing the HF product to protect their profit margins? There's only
one basher, and he's not a seller except in his imagination. Perhaps I
missed some posts? Feel free to name names. :-)
Wayne
Solar Flare
lifetime bashing somebody that made him look stupid.
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:gq37o35fbru75j5lp...@4ax.com...
Too_Many_Tools
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:08:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
>
>
>
>
> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 7, 9:08 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> >> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
> >> >> their profit margin.
>
> >> >> TMT
>
> >> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>
> >> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
> >> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
> >> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
> >> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
> >> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
> >> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
> >> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/e7b4029455afd062,
> >>Apparently the strategy of using
> >> volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
> >> effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
>
> >> Wayne
>
> >try defining "competitive"
>
> How about, "within 10% of the lowest price available for a
> substantially similar product"?
>
> >HF is selling LOTS of those panel kits.
>
> >So are they "competitve"?
>
> Sure. But that's not the point. Why do you believe that "sellers" are
> bashing the HF product to protect their profit margins? There's only
> one basher, and he's not a seller except in his imagination. Perhaps I
> missed some posts? Feel free to name names. :-)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
So you have nothing more to add?
I asked for a profit margin...not a sermon.
TMT
bea...@gmail.com
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:08:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
>
>
> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 7, 9:08 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> >> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
> >> >> their profit margin.
>
> >> >> TMT
>
> >> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>
> >> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
> >> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
> >> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
> >> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
> >> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
> >> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
> >> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/e7b4029455afd062,
> >>Apparently the strategy of using
> >> volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
> >> effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
>
> >> Wayne
>
> >try defining "competitive"
>
> How about, "within 10% of the lowest price available for a
> substantially similar product"?
>
> >HF is selling LOTS of those panel kits.
>
> >So are they "competitve"?
>
> Sure. But that's not the point. Why do you believe that "sellers" are
> bashing the HF product to protect their profit margins? There's only
> one basher, and he's not a seller except in his imagination. Perhaps I
> missed some posts? Feel free to name names. :-)
And the answer is "wayne"
The margin here in oz for retailers = 25% to 40% on top of wholesale
price
bea...@gmail.com
> On Jan 8, 8:59 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:08:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> > <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Jan 7, 9:08 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> > >> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
> > >> >> their profit margin.
>
> > >> >> TMT
>
> > >> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>
> > >> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
> > >> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
> > >> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
> > >> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
> > >> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
> > >> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
> > >> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/e7b4029455afd062,
> > >>Apparently the strategy of using
> > >> volume sales to make up for the lowest possible price will remain in
> > >> effect until he gets a sign <snorf> that it isn't working. :-)
>
> > >> Wayne
>
> > >try defining "competitive"
>
> > How about, "within 10% of the lowest price available for a
> > substantially similar product"?
>
> > >HF is selling LOTS of those panel kits.
>
> > >So are they "competitve"?
>
> > Sure. But that's not the point. Why do you believe that "sellers" are
> > bashing the HF product to protect their profit margins? There's only
> > one basher, and he's not a seller except in his imagination. Perhaps I
> > missed some posts? Feel free to name names. :-)
>
> > Wayne- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So you have nothing more to add?
>
> I asked for a profit margin...not a sermon.
>
> TMT
Why are you asking wayne? He can't even work out how many watts a
hundred watt light globe uses, even with two watt metres.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
Since you asked... now that it's clear that your theory about
retailers dissing HF panels was based on a mistaken notion, I'll add
that the both the original claim and your defense of it have been
illogical.
>I asked for a profit margin...not a sermon.
I already told you - profit margins are slim on solar stuff if you're
paying a competitive price. It's generally the same as any retail biz,
there are vendors who buy right and add barely enough to keep their
lights on, ghiniuses who buy from other retailers and price themselves
into unemployment, and there's everything in between. An average of
those margins, if anybody could know what it is, would be meaningless.
But none of that has anything to do with your theory that "sellers"
are bashing HF modules. If you can't support your reasoning, refuse to
admit an erroneous assumption, and are drawing the support of a
confirmed BS artist, then what does that tell you?
Wayne
Too_Many_Tools
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:17:55 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
>
>
>
>
> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 8, 8:59 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:08:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
> >> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jan 7, 9:08 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:53:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> >> >> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Jan 2, 1:27 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> This ongoing HF bashing smells alot like sellers trying to protect
> >> >> >> their profit margin.
>
> >> >> >> TMT
>
> >> >> >Still waiting for a response to my question on profit margins.
>
> >> >> If you're paying a competitive price on solar stuff then the profit
> >> >> margin is relatively slim. Anyway, I don't remember a single retailer
> >> >> bashing the HF panels. The only person complaining about them doesn't
> >> >> sell anything except wisdumb. His price for that used to be $25, but
> >> >> once it became clear that there wasn't any interest in his product,
> >> >> the price was reduced to zero. Still no takers.
> >> >> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/e7b4029455afd062,
Okay...so you don't know...thanks for playing.
TMT
Solar Flare
You finished about average with the Weiner troller here. Most take
about 5 or 6 posts to realize he is just one angry person looking to
feel better about himself by telling everybody they are morons.
Check out his website biography.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c9502e6e-dd0c-4735...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
bea...@gmail.com
The mark ups I provided are the difference between the trade price
from wholesalers that the installer pay and the RRP.
HF are importing the panels, from what I have seen of such operations
a 100% mark up would not be uncommon. Often it is more.
If you are a business all you have to do is contact the supplier in
China and ask what the panels would cost per thousand.
I do know that to land a $35 led lamp in Australia (in bulk) is less
than $4 each.
You can make of that what you want. But, HF is in the business of
making money. They will charge what ever you are willing to pay.
These days, all my solar work is as a consultant, my job consists of
going around to people who have been caught with bad information and
telling them that the system they bought was incorrectly sized and
designed and that it will cost them $(enter any considerable amount)
to fix.
Most of the installers size a system to what they think you will be
willing to pay, and cheerfully tell the you that the system will run
everything the you want.
Almost every such system I am called out to is a generator system with
solar boost. And the generator? Chinese with a life expectancy of
three months, with luck.
Welcome to wayne's world of system design by guess.
