Some Celebrities Time Travel -- Others Can't
Lisa Pease
in their twenties and thirties but the nostalgia market ignores them
(like E True Hollywood Story, Enquirer and those little nostalgia
booklets in your supermarket checkout line):
Charlene Tilton
Rula Lenska
Johnnie Ray
Vanessa Redgrave
Claudine Longet
Jean Harris
George Kirby
Jim Bouton
Lance Rentzel -- Why do people who publicize exploited children
ignore him?
Anne Murray
Allan Sherman -- Why no E True Hwd Story ? He was very famous in the
1960s.
** Now let's switch to the opposite situation. Here are elderly
people and dead people worshiped today for blazing trails in American
culture, but they actually were nobodies at the time they were
"famous." Please stop mentioning their names, Village Voice and E !
Entertainment Television !
Bettie Page -- enough already
Danny Bonaduce -- Wonder why he never did a guest star gig on "Laugh
In" or "Love American Style ?" Because he wasn't really a star in the
early 1970s.
Corey Haim -- Distortions !
Sylvia Plath : no obituary in the New York Times, Newsweek or Time
Anne Sexton -- a pedophile whose best known poems celebrate pedophilia
Get her skeleton off the stage ! Replace her with
life.
Michael Bennett -- this nobody became the Jesus Christ of the AIDS
epidemic
Angie Dickinson
Zelda Fitzgerald -- She had an identity: the wife of a notorious
failure.
Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
knew he was gay. Movie audiences in his day didn't invade people's
privacy. The movies were dreamlike fantasies for children. Every
single movie was okay for the kids. And grown-ups in that era didn't
discuss homosexuality with the kids. Mr. Hay literally faded from
view twenty years before the first drugstore tabloid was invented:
Confidential magazine. And even that respected people's privacy.
Lou Reed -- Been lookin' for him on the Ed Sullivan Show
retrospectives.
Nico -- same -- She was almost literally born after she died in 1988.
John Waters -- I worked at Baltimore's Harborplace in between
"Polyester" and "Hairspray." Nobody there knew who he was. If you
said "John Waters" people thought you were talking about the tall
ships in the Inner Harbor. Nostalgia people, please stop portraying
him as the Darryl Zanuck of the 1970s and 80s.
** Any additions ? As you can see, nostalgia isn't what it used to
be. Today's nostalgia marketers are recouping the losses of senior
citizens who live beyond their means, like Angie Dickinson and John
Waters. They also do wonders for the executors of certain Estates
that were worth nothing at the time the deceased expired.
Ewe35
>knew he was gay. Movie audiences in his day didn't invade people's
>privacy. The movies were dreamlike fantasies for children.
Harry Hay was a movie star?I thought he was an early gay activist.Maybe you are
thinking of someone like William Haines or Rock Hudson. They were gay movie
stars that kept their sexual orientation hidden from the public.
And were movies fantasies for children? I dont think so, they were made for
the broad general public like Network TV has been for the past 50 years,Huge
Golden Age hits like Gone With The Wind, were not made for children, although
movies were supposed to be inoffensive enough to take children to.
nimue
>> Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
>> knew he was gay. Movie audiences in his day didn't invade people's
>> privacy. The movies were dreamlike fantasies for children.
>
> Harry Hay was a movie star?I thought he was an early gay
> activist.
Yeah -- he was a gay activist, and not a movie star. I think he formed
something called the Mattachine society, or something like that.
Whatever -- I will google it. Isn't it nice that it's so easy to get
information these days?
>Maybe you are thinking of someone like William Haines or
> Rock Hudson. They were gay movie stars that kept their sexual
> orientation hidden from the public. And were movies fantasies for
> children? I dont think so, they were made for the broad general
> public like Network TV has been for the past 50 years,Huge Golden
> Age hits like Gone With The Wind, were not made for children,
> although movies were supposed to be inoffensive enough to take
> children to.
--
nimue
"There are things I will not tolerate: students loitering on campus
after school, horrible murders with hearts being removed... and also
smoking." Principal Snyder
nimue
>snip
>
> ** Now let's switch to the opposite situation. Here are elderly
> people and dead people worshiped today for blazing trails in American
> culture, but they actually were nobodies at the time they were
> "famous." Please stop mentioning their names, Village Voice and E !
> Entertainment Television !
>
> Sylvia Plath : no obituary in the New York Times, Newsweek or Time
So that means she wasn't an important poet? I have no idea whether she had
an obit in the Times or not -- I am sure YOU don't know -- however, I do
know that her poetry was published by distinguished journals during her
life.
>
> Anne Sexton -- a pedophile whose best known poems celebrate pedophilia
What are you talking about? What proof do you have that she was a
pedophile? I have no idea what you are talking about -- you probably don't,
either. You don't even know who Harry Hay was.
>
> snip
>
> Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
> knew he was gay.
As I said in another post -- he was never a movie star. He was, however, an
"out" gay man. Everyone knew he was gay. He was as out as out can be.
Here's a link:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1538574.php
>Movie audiences in his day didn't invade people's
> privacy. The movies were dreamlike fantasies for children. Every
> single movie was okay for the kids. And grown-ups in that era didn't
> discuss homosexuality with the kids. Mr. Hay literally faded from
> view twenty years before the first drugstore tabloid was invented:
> Confidential magazine. And even that respected people's privacy.
Do you have any idea how stupid you look? You should check your information
before you post it. I can tell you, after reading this, I would never trust
your opinion on anything. You think you know things -- and I have no idea
why, because you get everything wrong. You are no information source, that
is for sure.
>
> Lou Reed -- Been lookin' for him on the Ed Sullivan Show
> retrospectives.
>
> Nico -- same -- She was almost literally born after she died in 1988.
Uh -- I remember talking about Nico when I was high school -- and that was
before 1988. She was a Warhol icon.
>
> John Waters -- I worked at Baltimore's Harborplace in between
> "Polyester" and "Hairspray." Nobody there knew who he was. If you
> said "John Waters" people thought you were talking about the tall
> ships in the Inner Harbor.
Well, most people who are interested in film know who John Waters is.
Perhaps your friends are as ignorant as you are.
>Nostalgia people, please stop portraying
> him as the Darryl Zanuck of the 1970s and 80s.
>
> ** Any additions ? As you can see, nostalgia isn't what it used to
> be.
Do you have any idea how funny that sentence it? If you knew what you are
doing, I would think that you knew how ironic and amusing that sentence
is -- but I actually think you mean it.
>Today's nostalgia marketers are recouping the losses of senior
> citizens who live beyond their means, like Angie Dickinson and John
> Waters. They also do wonders for the executors of certain Estates
> that were worth nothing at the time the deceased expired.
--
Lisa Pease
> >Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
> >knew he was gay. Movie audiences in his day didn't invade people's
> >privacy. The movies were dreamlike fantasies for children.
>
> Harry Hay was a movie star?I thought he was an early gay activist.Maybe you are
> thinking of someone like William Haines or Rock Hudson.
You're right. It was William Haines. The ASG regular named "Fulla
Bulla" screwed up. The point is that Mr. Haines is one of the
celebrities who can time travel. When he was alive he was simply a
wisecracking actor who never got the girl, as movie critics used to
say. He didn't come up with those wisecracks. Screenwriters did, and
those people * never * come back from the grave. Mr. Haines lived to
be 73 years old, much older than the closeted gay and bisexual actors
who supposedly had good excuses to die young. (Montgomery Clift, John
Garfield, James Dean, etc.)
Then twenty years after Mr. Haines died writers, publishing companies
and "underground filmmakers" began to make money by claiming he was
the first openly gay Hollywood megastar. He was nothing of the sort.
Nobody -- repeat nobody -- who paid money to see a Haines moving
picture at a cinema palace knew that Louis B. Mayer had * allegedly *
pressured Haines to drop a homosexual lover and marry a woman. The
few people who knew that were gainfully employed by MGM and they could
see movies for free. That fact is important because it was during the
Great Depression.
What did * paying moviegoers * in Dubuque, Iowa (remember the little
old lady there ?) believe about Mr. Haines' private life ? They
didn't care. He was part of the childlike dream fantasy they could
buy for fifty cents. And remember, we don't know for sure that Louis
B. Mayer ever did what these greedy "gay Hollywood historians" say he
did. Mr. Mayer died in 1957. All the important people with whom he
did business died before the gay Hollywood history craze started. If
a tape recording or handwritten letter exists proving that The Man
tried to straighten out William Haines for public display, it doesn't
appear in the fraudulent books or the rarely seen documentaries from
which these greedy gay people make lots of money.
As this thread said when it started, some celebrities time travel and
others can't. Some are relatively obscure when they are alive, like
William Haines, and they become celebrities 20 years after dying.
Others like Louise Lasser become very very famous and then disappear
for decades. Louise was just as much a trailblazer as William Haines
-- an ugly 37-year-old woman on the cover of Rolling Stone and hosting
Saturday Night Live. And she's still alive. Evidently she can't time
travel. Did she experiment with drugs ? So what if she did ? So did
Montgomery Clift, John Garfield and James Dean. Garfield used amyl
nitrate.
They were gay movie
> stars that kept their sexual orientation hidden from the public.
> And were movies fantasies for children? I dont think so, they were made for
> the broad general public like Network TV has been for the past 50 years,Huge
> Golden Age hits like Gone With The Wind, were not made for children, although
> movies were supposed to be inoffensive enough to take children to.
Alright, so parents wouldn't take their kids to see Gone With The Wind
in 1939 - 1940. But church social groups flocked to movie palaces to
see it. Can you imagine a church social group going on a field trip
today to see "Anger Management ?" And Michael Medved doesn't have the
time to label that one offensive. He has to keep a list of
priorities, devoting his time to warning people about "Jackass The
Movie" and other stuff that truly can be a bad influence.
Lisa Pease
> Lisa Pease wrote:
> >snip
> >
> > ** Now let's switch to the opposite situation. Here are elderly
> > people and dead people worshiped today for blazing trails in American
> > culture, but they actually were nobodies at the time they were
> > "famous." Please stop mentioning their names, Village Voice and E !
> > Entertainment Television !
> snip
> >
> > Sylvia Plath : no obituary in the New York Times, Newsweek or Time
>
> So that means she wasn't an important poet? I have no idea whether she had
> an obit in the Times or not -- I am sure YOU don't know -- however, I do
> know that her poetry was published by distinguished journals during her
> life.
You dummy, you can visit any public library -- even in a high -
poverty area of Mississippi -- and check the New York Times article
index for the year 1963. There is no obit for Sylvia Plath. It's not
nuclear physics.
Yes, "distinguished journals" in the U. K. printed * some of * her
poems with suicidal overtones just two to three months before she
died. "Daddy" was printed. "Cut" wasn't. The New Yorker had
circulated her pre - Ariel poems many months earlier, but Americans
didn't discover Plath's suicidal feelings until after she had thrown
in the towel.
Those British journals also published hundreds of other poets every
month, only revealing their names. Nobody who reacted to her self -
destructive impulses when she was alive knew that she and her husband
had split just weeks earlier or that she had spent more than a year in
the notorious McLean mental hospital in the United States. They didn't
know the story behind the poems any more than Americans knew how or if
Johnny Cash had murdered a woman named Delia. That means Anne
Stevenson, author of a 1989 Plath biography titled "Bitter Fame," is a
fraud. She should have appeared on radio talk shows with Albert
Goldman that year. They are examples of fraudulent nostalgia
salespeople. Ka ching !
> >
> > Anne Sexton -- a pedophile whose best known poems celebrate pedophilia
>
> What are you talking about? What proof do you have that she was a
> pedophile? I have no idea what you are talking about -- you probably don't,
> either. You don't even know who Harry Hay was.
You moron, I wasn't the poster who said Harry Hay was an actor. I
know he founded Mattachine with Will Geer, an actor who lived to
celebrate his fiftieth wedding anniversary with his wife, children and
grandchildren.
As for Anne Sexton, her positive attitude toward sexually molesting
her own daughter is so well - known among people who pay attention to
her that it's a major selling point of a 1991 biography of her by a
female English professor at Stanford. Sexton's own children --
including the daughter who was molested -- allowed Professor Diane
Middlebrook to use more than 300 audiotapes Anne had made of sessions
with her Boston psychiatrist.
But a Boston Globe reporter who learned of the book project before its
publication printed an article in which other psychiatrists objected
to Diane's use of the audiotapes. They objected despite or because of
the fact that the abuse victim thought it was okay for a large
audience to read transcripts of the tapes. This is yet another
example of celebrity time travelling. Someone who is not a celebrity
dies and then becomes one decades later. Living people who never met
the deceased get rich. "Professor" Middlebrook owes a major debt to
Oprah Winfrey, whose molestation didn't damage HER mind.
>
> >
> > snip
>
> >
> > Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
> > knew he was gay.
>
> As I said in another post -- he was never a movie star. He was, however, an
> "out" gay man. Everyone knew he was gay. He was as out as out can be.
> Here's a link:
> http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1538574.php
I've already seen it. Such "links" didn't exist during his lifetime.
>
> >Movie audiences in his day didn't invade people's
> > privacy. The movies were dreamlike fantasies for children. Every
> > single movie was okay for the kids. And grown-ups in that era didn't
> > discuss homosexuality with the kids. Mr. Hay literally faded from
> > view twenty years before the first drugstore tabloid was invented:
> > Confidential magazine. And even that respected people's privacy.
>
> Do you have any idea how stupid you look?
Do you have any idea how stupid YOU look ? You believe everything you
read based on how "distinguished" it looks, not realizing that ANY
writer with connections or a lot of money can get something published.
You should check your information
> before you post it. I can tell you, after reading this, I would never trust
> your opinion on anything.
Nobody trusts you because you're egomaniacal enough to brag about your
mother being an English teacher. She spent a lot of time "going over
English with me ?" I don't suppose she got you interested in Malcolm
X or Swahili. Malcolm and his wife Betty Shabazz made more positive
contributions to the women's movement than Anne Sexton did. The least
Anne could have taught her daughter to do was type the way Nation of
Islam secretaries could.
You think you know things -- and I have no idea
> why, because you get everything wrong. You are no information source, that
> is for sure.
Nobody can be or is an "information source" on Usenet. The
information is the information. People who post things that others
haven't heard about may cause alarm or surprise, but the new things
will spread if a large enough number of anonymous statistical people
confirm them. It's all numbers here. It is Usenet. There are no
paychecks from American Media, Inc. in Delray Beach, Florida.
"Writers" are the ones who get those. Oh, and your fellow statistics
have to care about the subject, too. They want to know about those
who do, not those who teach.
>
> >
> > Lou Reed -- Been lookin' for him on the Ed Sullivan Show
> > retrospectives.
> >
> > Nico -- same -- She was almost literally born after she died in 1988.
>
> Uh -- I remember talking about Nico when I was high school -- and that was
> before 1988. She was a Warhol icon.
Did you know enough about her to feel that you knew her, the way the
masses knew that Janis Joplin had hustled a fur coat from the
manufacturers of Southern Comfort ? Or was Nico just one of two
singers in a band you had to see in person ? They weren't on Ed
Sullivan. John Frankenheimer kept them out of "Midnight Cowboy."
That grainy performance footage of Velvet with the terrible sound
fidelity was hidden from their fans unless you met the filmmaker in
Greenwich Village and you were good-looking enough to get invited to
the big party. Then Nico lost all her fame, died and became very
famous. Ka ching !
> >
> > John Waters -- I worked at Baltimore's Harborplace in between
> > "Polyester" and "Hairspray." Nobody there knew who he was. If you
> > said "John Waters" people thought you were talking about the tall
> > ships in the Inner Harbor.
>
> Well, most people who are interested in film know who John Waters is.
> Perhaps your friends are as ignorant as you are.
You are a misquoting Janet Malcolm wannabe dingaling ! I said most
people in his own city of Baltimore didn't know him between
"Polyester" and "Hairspray."
>
> >Nostalgia people, please stop portraying
> > him as the Darryl Zanuck of the 1970s and 80s.
> >
> > ** Any additions ? As you can see, nostalgia isn't what it used to
> > be.
>
> Do you have any idea how funny that sentence it? If you knew what you are
> doing, I would think that you knew how ironic and amusing that sentence
> is -- but I actually think you mean it.
You clueless scoundrel ! That observation on nostalgia is the title
of Simone Signoret's memoirs that hit bookstores in 1978 after much
publicity in the New York Times, which reprinted a long excerpt about
Marilyn Monroe stealing Simone's husband. Simone -- or whoever came
up with the title -- was right. The wall posters of Marilyn's skirt
blowing weren't the only means of merchandizing Marilyn in 1978.
The purpose of this group is to discuss truly famous people, not to
point out "ironic and amusing" qualities in the discussers or to sell
people on the career of an English teacher. You might as well give
that sales pitch to the cashier at a Seven Eleven.
Anyone with half a brain can understand the title of this thread:
"Some Celebrities Time Travel -- Others Can't." IOW some obscure
people die or they get old and idle and * then * they become famous.
Others work hard leading to fame when they are young, and then they
disappear. Examples of the first group are Bettie Page, Anne Sexton
and William Haines. The second group includes Louise Lasser, Johnnie
Ray, Lee Atwater (not even claimed by those who call the Bush family
Nazis), Donny Hathaway (unclaimed by historians of African American
culture) and Melba Moore / Clifton Davis (same fate -- they were the
first African American husband-and-wife team on network TV proving
that not all men of color dump their women of color).
MC
bucke...@hotmail.com (Lisa Pease) wrote:
> > > Sylvia Plath : no obituary in the New York Times, Newsweek or Time
> >
> > So that means she wasn't an important poet? I have no idea whether she had
> > an obit in the Times or not -- I am sure YOU don't know -- however, I do
> > know that her poetry was published by distinguished journals during her
> > life.
I lived in the flat she died in for a while. Used *the* stove every
day... W.B. Yeats had lived there too. He got a blue plaque outside. She
didn't.
nimue
It's the same stove? Geez -- I have only had my stove 5 years, and I
practically have to pray over it to get it to start -- and her stove has
lasted that long?!
nimue
> "nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<FkMza.60641$h42....@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
>> Lisa Pease wrote:
>>> snip
>>>
>>> ** Now let's switch to the opposite situation. Here are elderly
>>> people and dead people worshiped today for blazing trails in
>>> American culture, but they actually were nobodies at the time they
>>> were "famous." Please stop mentioning their names, Village Voice
>>> and E ! Entertainment Television !
>> snip
>>>
>>> Sylvia Plath : no obituary in the New York Times, Newsweek or Time
>>
>> So that means she wasn't an important poet? I have no idea whether
>> she had an obit in the Times or not -- I am sure YOU don't know --
>> however, I do know that her poetry was published by distinguished
>> journals during her life.
>
> You dummy, you can visit any public library -- even in a high -
> poverty area of Mississippi -- and check the New York Times article
> index for the year 1963. There is no obit for Sylvia Plath. It's not
> nuclear physics.
So what? Why would I want to check? If I like her poetry -- great! If I
don't -- whatever. The absence or presense of a NY Times obit doesn't
change that. I mean -- no one bought Van Gogh's work during his lifetime.
Does that mean he is not an important artist?
>
snip
>
>>>
>>> Anne Sexton -- a pedophile whose best known poems celebrate
>>> pedophilia
>>
>> What are you talking about? What proof do you have that she was a
>> pedophile? I have no idea what you are talking about -- you
>> probably don't, either. You don't even know who Harry Hay was.
>
> You moron, I wasn't the poster who said Harry Hay was an actor.
Yeah you were, Lisa. It's in your original post. I just googled it.
snip
>
> As for Anne Sexton, her positive attitude toward sexually molesting
> her own daughter is so well - known among people who pay attention to
> her that it's a major selling point of a 1991 biography of her by a
> female English professor at Stanford. Sexton's own children --
> including the daughter who was molested -- allowed Professor Diane
> Middlebrook to use more than 300 audiotapes Anne had made of sessions
> with her Boston psychiatrist.
>
> But a Boston Globe reporter who learned of the book project before its
> publication printed an article in which other psychiatrists objected
> to Diane's use of the audiotapes. They objected despite or because of
> the fact that the abuse victim thought it was okay for a large
> audience to read transcripts of the tapes. This is yet another
> example of celebrity time travelling. Someone who is not a celebrity
> dies and then becomes one decades later. Living people who never met
> the deceased get rich. "Professor" Middlebrook owes a major debt to
> Oprah Winfrey, whose molestation didn't damage HER mind.
Well -- thanks for the Middlebrook info. Knowledge is power, you know. I
wasn't aware that Sexton was as mentally disturbed as Middlebrook says she
was. It is quite shocking and sad. I have to say, although you are right
about Sexton -- the sad fact is, you present things in such a rambling way,
you just don't inspire trust. I mean -- you even deny posting what you
posted about Harry Hay.
>
>>
>>>
>>> snip
>>
>>>
>>> Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
>>> knew he was gay.
>>
>> As I said in another post -- he was never a movie star. He was,
>> however, an "out" gay man. Everyone knew he was gay. He was as out
>> as out can be. Here's a link:
>> http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1538574.php
>
> I've already seen it. Such "links" didn't exist during his lifetime.
So? He was still an out gay man -- and you still said he was an actor in
your original post.
>
>>
snip
>
> Do you have any idea how stupid YOU look ? You believe everything you
> read based on how "distinguished" it looks, not realizing that ANY
> writer with connections or a lot of money can get something published.
What? I am not allowed to like certain poets because they weren't famous in
their own lifetimes? Is the only arbiter of value fame in one's own time?
BTW -- both Plath and Sexton were known poets. One of Sexton's big problems
was her growing fame. I am crazy about a number of poets now that I would
consider very famous -- but the term famous poet is almost an oxymoron.
Have you heard of Mark Doty, Louise Gluck, or Jorie Graham? If you are
familiar with poetry, you have. If not -- you probably haven't. They are
famous in the poetry world, and maybe one day will be famous in the much
larger world.
>
> You should check your information
>> before you post it. I can tell you, after reading this, I would
>> never trust your opinion on anything.
>
> Nobody trusts you because you're egomaniacal enough to brag about your
> mother being an English teacher.
That's funny! I never thought that my mother's position as an English
teacher was something to brag about. Wow -- my mom is a poorly paid civil
servant in a position few people respect! You think that makes me
egomaniacal? It was just her job. She knows a lot about English.
>She spent a lot of time "going over
> English with me ?" I don't suppose she got you interested in Malcolm
> X or Swahili. Malcolm and his wife Betty Shabazz
No, my mother did not get me interested in Betty Shabazz. She didn't have
to. My father frequently worked with Betty Shabazz. Ms. Shabazz had a
lack-of-punctuality problem, if you must know. It irritated him.
made more positive
> contributions to the women's movement than Anne Sexton did.
Well -- if you want to talk about messed up kids, you don't need to look
farther than Betty Shabazz's tragic family. God, that was a tragedy.
BTW -- I never said AS made any contributions to the women's movement --
who did? This is what I mean when I mention your unreliability and your
rambling posts.
snip
>
> You think you know things -- and I have no idea
>> why, because you get everything wrong. You are no information
>> source, that is for sure.
>
> Nobody can be or is an "information source" on Usenet. The
> information is the information. People who post things that others
> haven't heard about may cause alarm or surprise, but the new things
> will spread if a large enough number of anonymous statistical people
> confirm them. It's all numbers here. It is Usenet. There are no
> paychecks from American Media, Inc. in Delray Beach, Florida.
> "Writers" are the ones who get those. Oh, and your fellow statistics
> have to care about the subject, too. They want to know about those
> who do, not those who teach.
What? What on earth are you talking about?
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> snip
>>> ** Any additions ? As you can see, nostalgia isn't what it used to
>>> be.
>>
>> Do you have any idea how funny that sentence it? If you knew what
>> you are doing, I would think that you knew how ironic and amusing
>> that sentence is -- but I actually think you mean it.
>
> You clueless scoundrel ! That observation on nostalgia is the title
> of Simone Signoret's memoirs that hit bookstores in 1978 after much
> publicity in the New York Times,
Ah! I KNEW that sentence was too clever for you to have written it!
>which reprinted a long excerpt about
> Marilyn Monroe stealing Simone's husband. Simone -- or whoever came
> up with the title -- was right. The wall posters of Marilyn's skirt
> blowing weren't the only means of merchandizing Marilyn in 1978.
>
snip
I can see why so many have killfiled you. You are really strange and you
are also giving me a headache.
>
>>
>>> Today's nostalgia marketers are recouping the losses of senior
>>> citizens who live beyond their means, like Angie Dickinson and John
>>> Waters. They also do wonders for the executors of certain Estates
>>> that were worth nothing at the time the deceased expired.
--
Lisa Pease
> Lisa Pease wrote:
> > "nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<FkMza.60641$h42....@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
> >> Lisa Pease wrote:
> >>> snip
> >>>
> >>> ** Now let's switch to the opposite situation. Here are elderly
> >>> people and dead people worshiped today for blazing trails in
> >>> American culture, but they actually were nobodies at the time they
> >>> were "famous." Please stop mentioning their names, Village Voice
> >>> and E ! Entertainment Television !
> snip
> >>>
> >>> Sylvia Plath : no obituary in the New York Times, Newsweek or Time
> >>
> >> So that means she wasn't an important poet? I have no idea whether
> >> she had an obit in the Times or not -- I am sure YOU don't know --
> >> however, I do know that her poetry was published by distinguished
> >> journals during her life.
> >
> > You dummy, you can visit any public library -- even in a high -
> > poverty area of Mississippi -- and check the New York Times article
> > index for the year 1963. There is no obit for Sylvia Plath. It's not
> > nuclear physics.
>
> So what? Why would I want to check?
Because it proves the premise of the post that started this thread.
That premise is that some celebrities time travel and others can't.
Plath can. When she died the New York Times didn't find it
newsworthy. Time didn't. Newsweek didn't. The Washington Post
didn't. Then many years later Ms. magazine devoted one of its
earliest issues to sensational stories from her life as opposed to her
poetry. She then started getting more newspaper attention than poets
who were alive.
If I like her poetry -- great! If I
> don't -- whatever.
There you go again with your ego. It's getting in the way of the
brain cells you need to understand this thread of time travelling.
The absence or presense of a NY Times obit doesn't
> change that. I mean -- no one bought Van Gogh's work during his lifetime.
> Does that mean he is not an important artist?
Non sequitur. This is a celebrity gossip group with specialized
subjects. It's not a forum for pompous art critics to decide who has
talent, who doesn't, whose violent behavior compromises their work and
whose doesn't.
> >
> snip
> >
> >>>
> >>> Anne Sexton -- a pedophile whose best known poems celebrate
> >>> pedophilia
> >>
> >> What are you talking about? What proof do you have that she was a
> >> pedophile? I have no idea what you are talking about -- you
> >> probably don't, either. You don't even know who Harry Hay was.
> >
> > You moron, I wasn't the poster who said Harry Hay was an actor.
>
> Yeah you were, Lisa. It's in your original post. I just googled it.
No, I wasn't. A poster calling himself or herself "Fulla Bulla" is
responsible.
>
> snip
> >
> > As for Anne Sexton, her positive attitude toward sexually molesting
> > her own daughter is so well - known among people who pay attention to
> > her that it's a major selling point of a 1991 biography of her by a
> > female English professor at Stanford. Sexton's own children --
> > including the daughter who was molested -- allowed Professor Diane
> > Middlebrook to use more than 300 audiotapes Anne had made of sessions
> > with her Boston psychiatrist.
> >
> > But a Boston Globe reporter who learned of the book project before its
> > publication printed an article in which other psychiatrists objected
> > to Diane's use of the audiotapes. They objected despite or because of
> > the fact that the abuse victim thought it was okay for a large
> > audience to read transcripts of the tapes. This is yet another
> > example of celebrity time travelling. Someone who is not a celebrity
> > dies and then becomes one decades later. Living people who never met
> > the deceased get rich. "Professor" Middlebrook owes a major debt to
> > Oprah Winfrey, whose molestation didn't damage HER mind.
>
> Well -- thanks for the Middlebrook info.
Wow, you are lazy. I didn't give you anything. What I said comes
from online newspaper databases. You totally ignored the point about
"Professor" Middlebrook making money from a dead poet she never met.
Nobody called the police about Anne Sexton's criminal behavior when it
happened even though it happened in the cutting - edge Boston area.
Anne wasn't employed by the Roman Catholic church, so there's no
motive for a cover-up.
She died leaving behind 30 audiotapes from sessions with a medical
doctor, fifteen years passed and then a Stanford University professor
made more money from the tapes than any Boston cop makes from pounding
the pavement. So much for noblesse oblige. So much for the
Hippocratic oath. Who needs them when you can transform Anne Sexton
into Eleanor Roosevelt ?
Knowledge is power, you know. I
> wasn't aware that Sexton was as mentally disturbed as Middlebrook says she
> was. It is quite shocking and sad. I have to say, although you are right
> about Sexton -- the sad fact is, you present things in such a rambling way,
> you just don't inspire trust. I mean -- you even deny posting what you
> posted about Harry Hay.
That's because I didn't post it. Fulla Bulla did. You're not
supposed to say that anybody in this forum is right or wrong. You're
supposed to say the information is right or wrong. You don't praise
the posters here. This isn't the National Organization for Women.
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>> snip
>
> >>>
> >>> Harry Hay -- Why was he the first gay movie star ? Because nobody
> >>> knew he was gay.
> >>
> >> As I said in another post -- he was never a movie star. He was,
> >> however, an "out" gay man. Everyone knew he was gay. He was as out
> >> as out can be. Here's a link:
> >> http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1538574.php
> >
> > I've already seen it. Such "links" didn't exist during his lifetime.
>
> So? He was still an out gay man -- and you still said he was an actor in
> your original post.
No, I didn't. I said he wasn't famous until the early 1990s when gay
encyclopedias and other questionable books started claiming he was.
Next thing you know the Nobel Peace Prize will go to the bartender who
served Judy Garland the drink she drank when she met her last husband.
> >
> >>
> snip
> >
> > Do you have any idea how stupid YOU look ? You believe everything you
> > read based on how "distinguished" it looks, not realizing that ANY
> > writer with connections or a lot of money can get something published.
>
> What? I am not allowed to like certain poets because they weren't famous in
> their own lifetimes? Is the only arbiter of value fame in one's own time?
Non sequitur again. I said Plath's and Sexton's * personal lives *
were totally obscure when they were alive. Nine years after Plath
died and 15 years after Sexton's exit "writers" sensationalized them
to such an extent that today's young people get the impression that
the two women were as productive as Eleanor Roosevelt and Clare Booth
Luce.
> BTW -- both Plath and Sexton were known poets.
The stories behind their poems weren't known until they died
prematurely. I never said they weren't known as poets, you arrogant
Ivy League dumbass.
One of Sexton's big problems
> was her growing fame. I am crazy about a number of poets now that I would
> consider very famous -- but the term famous poet is almost an oxymoron.
> Have you heard of Mark Doty, Louise Gluck, or Jorie Graham? If you are
> familiar with poetry, you have. If not -- you probably haven't. They are
> famous in the poetry world, and maybe one day will be famous in the much
> larger world.
Right now you're inspiring people to kill them, disguise the deaths as
suicides and then write "biographies." F. Scott Fitzgerald said,
"Biography is the falsest of the arts."
> >
> > You should check your information
> >> before you post it. I can tell you, after reading this, I would
> >> never trust your opinion on anything.
> >
> > Nobody trusts you because you're egomaniacal enough to brag about your
> > mother being an English teacher.
>
> That's funny! I never thought that my mother's position as an English
> teacher was something to brag about.
Then why did you mention it in a celebrity gossip group ? Or are you
going to say that I introduced it for people to ponder ?
Wow -- my mom is a poorly paid civil
> servant in a position few people respect! You think that makes me
> egomaniacal? It was just her job. She knows a lot about English.
Tell her there's an opening for a biography of Maxine Kumin. It could
have a conspiracy angle. All those gentiles in Kentucky were mean to
her when she shopped at the A & P because they were part of a
conspiracy.
>
> >She spent a lot of time "going over
> > English with me ?" I don't suppose she got you interested in Malcolm
> > X or Swahili. Malcolm and his wife Betty Shabazz
>
> No, my mother did not get me interested in Betty Shabazz. She didn't have
> to. My father frequently worked with Betty Shabazz. Ms. Shabazz had a
> lack-of-punctuality problem, if you must know. It irritated him.
She was a registered nurse. Nobody slams a male doctor for tardiness.
>
> made more positive
> > contributions to the women's movement than Anne Sexton did.
>
> Well -- if you want to talk about messed up kids, you don't need to look
> farther than Betty Shabazz's tragic family. God, that was a tragedy.
How ? All six daughters are productive, clean and sober. Malcolm the
grandson set that fire in Betty's condominium because he wanted the
bureaucratic juvenile court system to send him back to his mother in
Texas, not because he wanted to harm "Mommy Betty" as he called her.
> BTW -- I never said AS made any contributions to the women's movement --
> who did? This is what I mean when I mention your unreliability and your
> rambling posts.
Non sequitur again. You're not supposed to slam posters. You don't
know those people. The celebrities are the focus. The information is
the information. You seemed offended by anyone saying anything
untoward about Anne Sexton so I pointed out Betty Shabazz's
accomplishments, which owe a lot to her late husband's faith in women.
Malcolm X broke off with Elijah Muhammad when Malcolm got evidence of
Mr. Muhammad's adultery and disruption of the Nation of Islam's office
productivity. He had sex with several secretaries to the extent that
they got little work done.
>
> snip
> >
> > You think you know things -- and I have no idea
> >> why, because you get everything wrong. You are no information
> >> source, that is for sure.
> >
> > Nobody can be or is an "information source" on Usenet. The
> > information is the information. People who post things that others
> > haven't heard about may cause alarm or surprise, but the new things
> > will spread if a large enough number of anonymous statistical people
> > confirm them. It's all numbers here. It is Usenet. There are no
> > paychecks from American Media, Inc. in Delray Beach, Florida.
> > "Writers" are the ones who get those. Oh, and your fellow statistics
> > have to care about the subject, too. They want to know about those
> > who do, not those who teach.
>
> What? What on earth are you talking about?
Your greed, egomania and obliviousness to the topic that started this
post. The point is that some celebrities time travel and others
can't. Translation: writers can profit from some forgotten celebs
but not others. Whether they're dead or alive is a piece of trivia.
Bettie Page is alive. Johnnie Ray is dead. Who knew ?
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> snip
>
> >>> ** Any additions ? As you can see, nostalgia isn't what it used to
> >>> be.
> >>
> >> Do you have any idea how funny that sentence it? If you knew what
> >> you are doing, I would think that you knew how ironic and amusing
> >> that sentence is -- but I actually think you mean it.
> >
> > You clueless scoundrel ! That observation on nostalgia is the title
> > of Simone Signoret's memoirs that hit bookstores in 1978 after much
> > publicity in the New York Times,
>
> Ah! I KNEW that sentence was too clever for you to have written it!
But YOU were too stupid to find it online. Simone Signoret's book
sold many copies and is quoted by many "writers." That leads to many
hits in all search engines. Also, you're clearly ignorant of the fact
that anyone can rip off Signoret's title. Titles can't be
copyrighted. We can't even give her credit for coming up with it.
Publishers of sensational celeb bios (i.e. stories that Marilyn stole
another man's wife and that Laurence Harvey was a jerk) employ people
who create titles, PR angles and other selling points. Signoret and
most of her friends are dead, so we can't ask them whose creation it
was.
>
> >which reprinted a long excerpt about
> > Marilyn Monroe stealing Simone's husband. Simone -- or whoever came
> > up with the title -- was right. The wall posters of Marilyn's skirt
> > blowing weren't the only means of merchandizing Marilyn in 1978.
> >
> snip
>
> I can see why so many have killfiled you. You are really strange and you
> are also giving me a headache.
YOU are a nagging manipulative Puritan. You're practicing the very
same intolerance of new ideas (i.e. greed causing time travel) that
made Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton feel like second - class citizens in
those mental hospitals. You gave yourself the headache when you
ruined this thread in order to brag that you know who those poets
were. A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW who they were. They're not interested in
the Plath death certificate that is photocopied and reproduced in one
particular remunerative biography. They want her poetry.
Clearly you are ignorant of the myth of the killfile. It doesn't kill
the "annoying" person's text if it gets reprinted in another person's
post. You're widening the audience. Notice the absence of the first
- person singular pronoun before "audience." Yours truly minimizes
the ego. The theory of celebrity time travel is where it's at.
You claimed to have talked about Nico when you were in high school.
That suggests drug use. If you never met her then there was nothing
to say about her except listen to this cool record album, man. Well,
you could always ask somebody for the phone number of Nico's dealer.
> >
> >>
> >>> Today's nostalgia marketers are recouping the losses of senior
> >>> citizens who live beyond their means, like Angie Dickinson and John
> >>> Waters. They also do wonders for the executors of certain Estates
> >>> that were worth nothing at the time the deceased expired.
THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH IS A REMNANT OF THE THREAD FROM BEFORE NIMUE
RUINED IT !
Alice Echols
people out there are entertaining leaving a long suicide note and then
committing suicide. That's essentially what Anne Sexton did. She did
sit near Sylvia Plath in Robert Lowell's poetry class in 1959. But
there had to be many others in the class who didn't commit suicide.
They had strong feelings when they learned of Sylvia's suicide.
They're old now.
I hope you don't have kids, nimue. Let's not give young people
the wrong idea. The artist should control his or her fame, not the
media or biographers. You're supposed to create art for art's sake,
not so people will pore over your sad life and lay blame willy nilly
as you might have done.
nimue
What are you talking about? What do you think I argued? You are as crazy
as Lisa. All I said was that these artists were known artists. They were.
That's it. You seem to think that I am encouraging people to kill
themselves to become famous artists -- I have no idea why you think that --
but you seem to.
Alice Echols
> Alice Echols wrote:
> > Sorry, "nimue," I gotta side with Ms. Pease. Sadly, right now some
> > people out there are entertaining leaving a long suicide note and then
> > committing suicide. That's essentially what Anne Sexton did. She did
> > sit near Sylvia Plath in Robert Lowell's poetry class in 1959. But
> > there had to be many others in the class who didn't commit suicide.
> > They had strong feelings when they learned of Sylvia's suicide.
> > They're old now.
> > I hope you don't have kids, nimue. Let's not give young people
> > the wrong idea. The artist should control his or her fame, not the
> > media or biographers. You're supposed to create art for art's sake,
> > not so people will pore over your sad life and lay blame willy nilly
> > as you might have done.
>
> What are you talking about? What do you think I argued? You are as crazy
> as Lisa.
The point you're missing is that the media make images of young
artists, athletes and politicans disappear and come back based on
sales figures. You're as intolerant of new ideas as were the nurses
and doctors at McLean Hospital who gave Plath and Sexton so much
trouble. If not for those professionals both women would have become
truly famous American poet icons like Marianne Moore and Robert Frost.
Moore appeared on NBC's Today Show (the filmed interview still exists)
and posed for magazine ads including one in which she talks with
Mickey Spillane on an airline flight. Spillane says he is jealous of
her. It could have been bullshit, but it reached a very large
audience.
Frost was more truthful than JFK at the latter's inauguration. He
recited "The Gift Outright." We all belong to the land, not a TV set.
> All I said was that these artists were known artists. They were.
Wrong. Both women became a lot more famous after they died. Plath
became a lot more famous than Sexton, and it remains that way.
Compare the number of hits in any search engine. The third woman who
leaves a long suicide note will become even less famous.
> That's it. You seem to think that I am encouraging people to kill
> themselves to become famous artists -- I have no idea why you think that --
> but you seem to.
I don't and I didn't say that. Chill out. Learn to question
authority. That includes the media. They can make the concepts of
life and death meaningless. Do you honestly believe Bettie Page is
famous or ever was famous ? Her obituary will make great copy with
the premise that she was a cultural icon of the 1950s. (Newspapers
prepare most obits while the people are alive.)
Podkayne Fries
wrote:
>Alice Echols wrote:
>> Sorry, "nimue," I gotta side with Ms. Pease.
>What are you talking about? What do you think I argued? You are as crazy
>as Lisa.
It appears that Lisa and Alice are the same person. Compare the
headers below:
From: bucke...@hotmail.com (Lisa Pease)
Newsgroups: alt.gossip.celebrities,alt.showbiz.gossip
Subject: Re: Some Celebrities Time Travel -- Others Can't
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Message-ID: <cc1b1d23.03052...@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.172.154.175
---------------------------
From: pearljo...@yahoo.com (Alice Echols)
Newsgroups: alt.gossip.celebrities,alt.showbiz.gossip
Subject: Re: Some Celebrities Time Travel -- Others Can't
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Message-ID: <8a06c3c0.03052...@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.172.154.175
=========
128.172.154.175 resolves to
whois -h magic 128.172.154.175
Trying whois -h whois.arin.net 128.172.154.175
OrgName: Virginia Commonwealth University
OrgID: VCU
Address: 1101 E. Marshall Street
City: Richmond
StateProv: VA
PostalCode: 23298-0016
Country: US
--
Regards, Podkayne Fries
Necrophilia means never having to say you're sorry.
ANIM8Rfsk
<< It appears that Lisa and Alice are the same person. Compare the
headers below: >>
That would explain a great deal.
___________
Don't just put QWest out of business -
put the people in charge in jail. Now.
Be sure to visit www.tsewQ.com
JustaGuy
Now whoda thunk it. Two loosers from the same place.
Howbout that other fruitcake Robyn fieldman?
J.A.G. Gonna learn one day to do some checking first befor calling a Lying
Ass a Ass. It'll save some time later down the road.
Alice Echols
> On Tue, 27 May 2003 22:55:45 GMT, "nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Alice Echols wrote:
>
> >> Sorry, "nimue," I gotta side with Ms. Pease.
>
> >What are you talking about? What do you think I argued? You are as crazy
> >as Lisa.
>
> It appears that Lisa and Alice are the same person. Compare the
> headers below:
A lot of people use the public computers on two different campuses of
this university / multicultural employment bureau. It's similar to
the fast - food restaurant where Fred Fairfield has fried his brain.
There's more than one grill.
Alice Echols
It's not the same place. If you know so much about Charlottesville,
Virginia, then please name the openly lesbian Hollywood screenwriter
who lives near here. Hint: the Match Game 1975 hosted by Gene
Rayburn. If you don't get it then you're a loser, not a looser.
>
> Howbout that other fruitcake Robyn fieldman?
That's Robyn Friedman. Wrong Jewish name.
Tom Hens
Podkayne Fries <fr...@fairfieldi.com> wrote...
> It appears that Lisa and Alice are the same person. Compare the
> headers below:
<snip of headers and whois information>
Thanks for going to the trouble of checking the headers, but wasn't this
blatantly obvious from what these two identities wrote? The moment I saw
the first "Alice Echols" posts popping up, I sighed and thought 'it seems
"Lisa Pease" is morphing. Another one for the killfile.'
Why does this kind of sad wanker assume that by just putting a different
invented name in the "From:" line they can hide their writing style, their
(usually obsessive) topics of interest, and, in the case of "Lisa
Pease"/"Alice Echols", their total loonyness and lack of any grasp of
reality, logic or common sense?