Something funny
Nostridomian
as it was codified, once promoted the belief in a literal Satan before 1975 (I
believe). No matter how hard I try I can't seem to find any single thing in The
Satanic Bible (which was published before 1975) that would seem to back up this
supposed abandoned belief. In fact it's contents match up exactly with what the
current "CoSers" espouse. "Satan" is still a force permeating the universe and
"Satan" is still an archetype among those nasty _Christian minded Satanists_.
Where is this change? I highly doubt that the CoS up and rewrote every existing
copy of The Satanic Bible (which are all virtually identicle to the one I own)
because of the Satanic Panic
In fact, I've come across a few of these "pre-Atheistic" Church of Satan drop
outs who seem to have abandoned this supposed belief as well. It seems that
only those who's religious _identity_ thrives on a belief in a literal Satan
wish to spread this rumor. I feel sorry for you if you can't see the connection
between that mindset and this rumor.
A few like to regard people like myself who truly resonate with the Satanic
religion as "LaVey worshippers" but they also like to maintain that LaVey was
somehow "right as rain" at the start of it all. But of course _later on_ he
corrupted it and turned it "fascist". I do not see this either. I've read every
piece of literature that LaVey ever had published and I see no "break" in
ideaology. In fact there is nothing but a progression from where he once
"codified" things to a point where he "created" things. A progression towards a
deeper Satanic philosophy.
Am I Christian minded for percisely stating what the first formal Satanic
religion (NOT a small club, a few inverted Christians, or Catholic propaganda)
actually has to say? Even further, am I Christian minded for not accepting
invalid interpritations of Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy?! I'm not out to
rewrite my Satanic Bible every time some nut job sets up a website and declairs
himself the leader of the NEW and IMPROVED Satanic religion. This does not make
me Christian at all. It makes me accurate. Against the rumor mill of
pseudo-Satanic websites I will continue to correctly state what the ONLY (and
FIRST) formal religion named Satanism has to say. Keep in mind, you may be
"Left Hand Path" on the theological spectrum but when you take on a variation
of the title "Satanist" you are at the very least part of a denomination of the
religion (which you aren't even a denomination) the Church of Satan still holds
to be true. This newsgroup, your spins offs, your oh so beloved leaders are all
a result of that institution which you despise.
You can bitch and moan about the "Pagan" aspects of Satanism but those things
are nothing more than eye candy latched onto a secular philosophy. Thus
Satanism owes nothing to neo-Paganism in any of it's various forms nor does it
owe anything to some "Dark Doctrines". It is no more or less Pagan today than
the day it was founded!
What is the Church of Satan doing today that it wasn't doing yesterday? Well as
far as I can tell it is making sure spiritualists stay away more than ever. But
I really don't care. I will not be yet another moron who views the Church of
Satan as a religion and Satanism as an institution which are both one in the
same. I really don't care that some Magister pissed off some Grand Pubbah of
the Order of Hyrogliphocal Encantations. Because it's simple, we DON'T believe
in the same religion or philosophy. That is something that has obviously not
been said quite so bluntly. Which is strange. I'd figuer that people would just
part ways like the true intellectuals (!) that they claim to be and form their
own systems, with their own symbols, and their own titles. So what Anton LaVey
used many things from other philosophers and theologies? He was indeed the
first person to actually do that to such an extreme! So you ecclectics are
nothing but a watered down version of what he did right in the first place, he
got the right formula. Why continue to imulate Anton LaVey by trying to
_CODIFY_ Satanisms?
What has Satanism become that it wasn't in the first place? Well to a small
extent it has become a "system" through which emotionally disturbed individuals
can vent anger towards rivals. In ghettos like this newgroup Satanism has lost
all relevance as a religion or a philosophy. There is very little insight
coming from the mouths of those who spew their verbal feces against us nasty
"sycophants". Aquino certainly spent more time working on his supposed history
of the Chuch of Satan document than he ever has working on something that holds
any truth that he found himself. Tani Jantsang has certainly spent more time
writing diatribes against rival organizations than writing down coherent
thoughts that have nothing to do with those rivals. Egan has spent the least
time out of all those who hate little ole me, the sycophant. He has named his
precious organization after the Church of Satan (keep in mind the CoS once was
named the FCoS), wrote hardly anything outside of organization bashing, and has
a few online activities. Then we have less noteworthy individuals like
Blackwood, Shaw, etc. Blackwood? Need I go there [laugh]! Shaw? A website, a
crappy zine, an online organization named after the group he is against, and
claims of hundreds of members who it is safe to assume have done nothing but
sign up on a website!
So what is worse? What the Church of Satan has become since 1975 or what the
individuals mentioned have become? Us Christian minded assholes [sneer] are
still writing down loads of philosophical insight. We have several published
(and well selling) books to our credit and they all totally reflect what
Satanism represented from the start. Us sycophants have many prolific writers
within our ranks unlike the "pseudo-Satanic movement" which seems to have under
a dozen who spend most of their time CoS bashing.
Satan worship to self worship to LaVey worship etc. etc. even if such myths
were true it is a very humorus fact that us sycophants would still be several
notches above you philosophically, theologically, intellectually, publically,
politically, and even financially (even after several crushing schisms haha)!
Sincerly
I worship LaVey and get off on Hitler
Heil Doktor!
*pift*
People's Commissar
"Nostridomian" <nostri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021112054245...@mb-ml.aol.com...
> owe anything to some "Dark Doctrines". It is no more or less Pagan today
than
> the day it was founded!
They used and printed every single thing every one of us ever handed to them
We never used a thing of theirs. Period. I'm not the one who said in
writing that the Dark Tradition was the "foundation" of Satanism. THEY said
it. Meanwhile, we kept our stuff to ourselves and separate.
>
> any truth that he found himself. Tani Jantsang has certainly spent more
time
> writing diatribes against rival organizations than writing down coherent.
Bull fucking shit on that one. We have sold Doctrines of LHP for decades
and the stuff we offer for free has NOTHING to do with other organizations.
Notably so. Very notably so! No one has to invent some religion or
reinvent atheism with Addam's Family trappings. We have legit Dark
Tradition. We don't need what you have. Or accept it. Unlike the Temple
of Set, we did NOT originate with you. We predate you, can easily prove
that, and we are NOT connected to you. You are LaVeyans. Period. Not LHP
at all. You have no Doctrines. You might end up with "scripture" if Peter
ever finishes it.
Kevin Filan
Commissar" <tanija...@www.com> wrote:
>
> "Nostridomian" <nostri...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20021112054245...@mb-ml.aol.com...
>
>> owe anything to some "Dark Doctrines". It is no more or less Pagan today
> than
>> the day it was founded!
>
> They used and printed every single thing every one of us ever handed to them
> We never used a thing of theirs. Period. I'm not the one who said in
> writing that the Dark Tradition was the "foundation" of Satanism. THEY said
> it. Meanwhile, we kept our stuff to ourselves and separate.
You know, I've heard Phyllis flapping her wrinkled gums about this for
years. So here's a novel idea... prove it.
*The Satanic Bible* was published in 1970. Perhaps our Jersey Durga can
point to a few passages wherein they use the "Dark Doctrines" ... material
which Phyllis wrote, or which she inherited from the Yak-Fuckers of
Mongolia. Then she can provide an example of a pre-1970 publication
wherein the original material appeared. That would prove once and for all
that she was indeed one of the early Doctors of the Church of Satan, who was
cruelly cast out on her liver-spotted ass by the unappreciative hordes who
took over after LaVey's death. Hell, I'd be willing to look at ANY evidence
that LaVey saw her as anything but an entertaining nutjob, and that he took
some of her material seriously and incorporated it into his own.
I suspect we'll be seeing the heat death of the Universe, or the first issue
of *Al-Jilwah*, before we see this evidence. But I'm sure that Phyllis will
keep right on including this claim amidst her Kahlua-soaked rants. That's
fine: the truth is there for those who can see, and those who can't really
don't matter, do they?
Peace
Kevin Filan
GOD
"Nostridomian" <nostri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021112054245...@mb-ml.aol.com...
GOD
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:B9F668C3.4A13%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
first issue
> of *Al-Jilwah*,
Anxiety can hurt you if you don't keep a lid on it. Don't start reaching
for the bottle again...
Everything happens in its due time...
- wolf -
news:B9F668C3.4A13%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
Wasn't that 1969? Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
members dating back to the early 1970es. If the CoS didn't originally borrow
its material from them, at the very least the two directions have
co-existed. As for quoting the CoS using Tani et. al.'s material, look no
further than what Peter Gilmore later removed from the CoS web site.
- wolf -
- wolf -
Satanism,
> as it was codified, once promoted the belief in a literal Satan before
1975 (I
> believe). No matter how hard I try I can't seem to find any single thing
in The
> Satanic Bible (which was published before 1975) that would seem to back up
this
> supposed abandoned belief. In fact it's contents match up exactly with
what the
> current "CoSers" espouse.
Its contents are rather ambiguous, so you can derive quite a few
interpretations from it.
The Church of Satan generally uses Satan as a symbol of man's nature as that
of any other animal, and rejects the belief in Satan as an anthropomorphic
being. Some of Anton LaVey's closer associates, however, seem to have been
told a different story. For example, Michael Aquino, who resigned from the
Church of Satan and formed a new organization, The Temple of Set in 1975,
explains that the belief in a literal Devil:
". was axiomatic to all of our [Aquino's and LaVey's] conversations and
collaborations"
and Blanche Barton explained to The San Francisco Chronicle at a press
conference following Anton LaVey's death in 1997 that Anton LaVey had
believed in the Devil. In an article in The Occult Explosion Anton LaVey had
acknowledged that:
". many members of the Church of Satan who are mystically inclined prefer to
think of Satan in a very real, anthropomorphic way. Of course we do not
discourage this, because we realize that it is very important to many
individuals to ritualistically conceptualize a well-wrought picture of their
mentor or tutelary divinity."
He ventured on to explain that:
"In answer to those who would label us "Devil worshippers" or . Satan
worshippers, I must say that Satan demands study, not worship."
Note that Anton LaVey did not reject the belief in Satan, only the worship
of the deity.
The Satanic Bible defines Satan somewhat ambiguously as a unified God (that
is, not a god among others) which:
". is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not being concerned with
suffering."
and
"Most Satanists do not accept Satan as an anthropomorphic being with cloven
hooves, a barbed tail, and horns. He merely represents a force of nature .
[which] is an untapped reservoir that few can make use of."
This definition, in conjunction with the term "god," lends itself to a
theistic or deistic perception of Satan in addition to the atheistic
persuasion also presented in the book.
The Church of Satan's Grotto Master application requires prospective "Grotto
Masters," who are individuals that lead a local chapter of Church of Satan
followers, to perform a self-initiation ritual:
"15. Before you complete this application-when you sense the time is
right-perform a ritual (using the basic elements described in The Satanic
Bible) to petition Satan and the Dark Legions to accept you as a Grotto
Master. Write down the ritual you performed and the results, if any."
Again, this ritual, requesting an infernal mandate, has theistic overtones.
Part of the Church of Satan's ideology specifically appeals to people that
feel a need to bolster their egos, feeling that they are more important than
their social recognition reflects. The Satanic Bible provides a salt water
injection to such people's egos with the assertion that Satanists are
intrinsically superior people. Church of Satan literature, such as The Black
Flame, bulge with racist, fascist, and Nazi-oriented essays and imagery, all
of which are recurring themes among people whose self-esteem is out of
proportion with their physical or intellectual abilities. Organizations
promising religious or similar emotionally gratifying compensation for
lacking achievements thrive on such people. The Church of Satan acknowledges
an emotional link between its ideology and Nazism:
"Barton: It's an unholy alliance . The anti-Christian strength of National
Socialist Germany is part of the appeal to Satanists. ."
"LaVey: . The aesthetics of National Socialism and Satanism dovetail."
(See the entire text including references at
http://home13.inet.tele.dk/doc/cosanalysis.pdf .)
- wolf -
Victor LeNettoyeur™
$156$edfa...@dread16.news.tele.dk...
> "Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
> news:B9F668C3.4A13%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
> > *The Satanic Bible* was published in 1970.
>
> Wasn't that 1969? Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
Great; then you should have no problem providing the proof of Tani's
neverending claims (concerning her position as the Grand Moff Tarkin of
Satanism).
> because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
> members dating back to the early 1970es.
That's called hearsay, and it means exactly shit -- but then you knew that
didn't you. Publish the evidence you claim you've seen for peer review.
/victor
--
"And through it all moved the Iron Heel, impassive and deliberate, shaking
up the whole fabric of the social structure in its search for the comrades,
combing out the Mercenaries, the labor castes, and all its secret services,
punishing without mercy and without malice, suffering in silence all
retaliations that were made upon it, and filling the gaps in its fighting
line as fast as they appeared."
-Jack London
Lisa
one,>>
Victor: <<Great; then you should have no problem providing the proof of Tani's
neverending claims (concerning her position as the Grand Moff Tarkin of
Satanism).>>
Uh, ditto. By the way, Poodles & co, this does not mean anyone's accepting your
inevitable "Well, I saw a SEEKRIT snail-mail from Anton LaVey back in '80 which
admitted the entire CoS is founded over the buried bones of a murdered TURANIAN
WARLORD clutching a copy of the Dark Doctrines in his rotted fist!!! There's
another dead Turanian underneath the foundation of that CoS whorehouse in
Amsterdam. Everyone knows this! I don't have a scanner, though!"
<<That's called hearsay, and it means exactly shit -- but then you knew that
didn't you. Publish the evidence you claim you've seen for peer review.>>
To borrow a phrase, "ha!"
Here's what we're about to see instead:
1. A rambling diatribe from Phyl claiming we're trying to "CENSOR!" her.
Included will be discussion about Lenin's racial backround, about how this
request exactly parallels the way George Bush "DESTROYED" that good, just man
Sadaam and a description of her backyard.
2. A rant from 'Jerome' regarding the validity of the Dark Forces. He'll also
remind us several times that he is "gay" ::gasp of horror! can it get any more
intense?!:: Satanists are a sensitive, prudish bunch and the mere concept of
homosexuality makes them wilt like flowers.... you know it.
3. Another rant from Phyl telling all and sundry about how Aquino KNEW and
ALWAYS KNEW the CoS was founded upon the Dark Doctrines. Zeena knew this too.
Why, just the other day Zeena emailed Phyl and said she stood behind Phyl 100%!
.... you cannot see this email however, because it is secret & no one is
supposed to know about it. Shhhhh!
4. a claim from some SatanicRetard (pick a sockpuppet) that Craig Hunt hacked
his way into Phyl's mainframe and destroyed all the evidence the CoS was
founded upon the Dark Doctrines. Lupo was there too, holding the flashlight; we
KNEW and have ALWAYS KNOWN this!
In short, it's about to get funny.
L.
*********
"the WHITE BOYS got bombed, boo hoo. Colored folks did it. WOW. More boo hoo.
You know what, let them cut the non used clits off the white bitches - after
all, their sex organs are their mouths. Let them sew up the also non-used
vaginas of these dried up white cuntless bitches. LEt them castrate the
dickless men, nothing lost there. That is what speech I'd say to these MEN if
I was over there!"
-Phyllis "People's Commissar" Jantsang discusses the September 11th attack
on New York City, its victims and their sex-organs in message:
unm7edh...@corp.supernews.com
Lupo LeBoucher
- wolf - <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote:
>Part of the Church of Satan's ideology specifically appeals to people that
>feel a need to bolster their egos, feeling that they are more important than
>their social recognition reflects. The Satanic Bible provides a salt water
>injection to such people's egos with the assertion that Satanists are
>intrinsically superior people.
You mean, the type of people who make $43k a year in silicon valley in the
late 90s?
Isn't solipsism one of the 'satanic sins?'
> Church of Satan literature, such as The Black
>Flame, bulge with racist, fascist, and Nazi-oriented essays and imagery, all
>of which are recurring themes among people whose self-esteem is out of
>proportion with their physical or intellectual abilities.
Funny, you didn't seem to have a problem with racist, fascist and Nazi
oriented essays and imagery in the CoS when you were a member. Come to
think of it, you only seem to have a problem with such things when they're
not emanating from the orofice of your Tanimama.
-Lupo
"I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of
bubblegum" -Roderick Toombs <i...@io.com>
Kevin Filan
3dd11d94$0$156$edfa...@dread16.news.tele.dk, "- wolf -"
<wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote:
> "Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
> news:B9F668C3.4A13%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
>> *The Satanic Bible* was published in 1970.
>
> Wasn't that 1969? Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
> because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
> members dating back to the early 1970es.
That wouldn't prove anything except that Tani was communicating with CoS
members after *The Satanic Bible* had been produced and after the basic
ideas of LaVeyan Satanism had been expounded by Anton LaVey.
> If the CoS didn't originally borrow
> its material from them, at the very least the two directions have
> co-existed.
ITYM, "Tani read *The Satanic Bible* and decided she was a Satanist." I've
seen no evidence of her "Generational Kishites" that appeared convincing in
the least. So far as I can tell, she came to the table AFTER the Church of
Satan was established, not before. (Of course, if she has any evidence to
prove me wrong, I'd be happy to take a peek at it. Right now I think her
"Generational Satanism" is about as convincing as your average "FamTrad
Wicca" IOW, it's the product of a reasonably bright and well-read person
creating a fictitious lineage to make herself appear more important,
powerful and influential than she really is).
> As for quoting the CoS using Tani et. al.'s material, look no
> further than what Peter Gilmore later removed from the CoS web site.
There's lots of material from CoS members on the CoS website. Since Tani is
no longer a member, why should her material be there? Do the Satanic Reds
still include links to Egan's website after he unceremoniously dumped Tani?
Peace
Kevin Filan
- wolf -
> > Wasn't that 1969? Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
> > because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
> > members dating back to the early 1970es.
>
> That wouldn't prove anything except that Tani was communicating with CoS
> members after *The Satanic Bible* had been produced and after the basic
> ideas of LaVeyan Satanism had been expounded by Anton LaVey.
The letters do discuss matters pertaining to her current philosophy, and as
you may have noticed, I didn't imply that the CoS *originally* had its idea
from her.
> ITYM, "Tani read *The Satanic Bible* and decided she was a Satanist."
I've
> seen no evidence of her "Generational Kishites" that appeared convincing
in
> the least. So far as I can tell, she came to the table AFTER the Church
of
> Satan was established, not before.
The latter seams reasonable, given no evidence of the contrary, and new
people that existed all the while when no one ever heard about them before
do tend to crop up every now and then, having done things that other people
who were involved never knew... Of course, one doesn't need to tell
everything about every acquaintance, but at some point it begins to look
like a situation where your girlfriend leaves you for someone else and then
insists her new lover had really lived in your home all the time you knew
each other.
Still, if Tani didn't appear on the scene until after she read _The Satanic
Bible_, she must have gathered lots of information and synthesized a
philosophy rather quickly. Since the latter doesn't seem too realistic, I'd
rather believe her statements that there was indeed a group earlier than the
1970es, but it may not have referred to itself as a Satanic group until
later. (I think she's said something about never using the term
"Satanists," now I come to think of it.) Additionally, at that time she
must have been reasonably young and may not have been as vocal as today.
It's also a fact, considering what Peter Gilmore has written in both his
magazine and on-line, that until recently the CoS used Tani's material as
well (see my last paragraph).
> (Of course, if she has any evidence to
> prove me wrong, I'd be happy to take a peek at it.
That would certainly boost her credibility, and should not prove too
difficult.
> > As for quoting the CoS using Tani et. al.'s material, look no
> > further than what Peter Gilmore later removed from the CoS web site.
>
> There's lots of material from CoS members on the CoS website. Since Tani
is
> no longer a member, why should her material be there? Do the Satanic Reds
> still include links to Egan's website after he unceremoniously dumped
Tani?
It wasn't just provided on the web site in the form of the inclusion of
Tani's various writings, but also in the form of Peter Gilmore referring to
Tani's material as the roots of Satanism.
- wolf -
- wolf -
news:YWVvbg==.d59160e25575fcb17e62b72f1a9a8ea2@1037115455.cotse.net...
> > because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
> > members dating back to the early 1970es.
>
> That's called hearsay, and it means exactly shit -- but then you knew that
> didn't you. Publish the evidence you claim you've seen for peer review.
I'm sure she can do that if she's interested in defending her position.
Personally, I won't bother. (It's not *my* problem, after all.)
- wolf -
- wolf -
news:vYWdnWmrOdm...@news.io.com...
> You mean, the type of people who make $43k a year in silicon valley in the
> late 90s?
Mid-90s when this was the average. Can't you read?
> Funny, you didn't seem to have a problem with racist, fascist and Nazi
> oriented essays and imagery in the CoS when you were a member.
Then you evidently never listened.
> Come to
> think of it, you only seem to have a problem with such things when they're
> not emanating from the orofice of your Tanimama.
I can assure you I don't agree with Tani that socialism is identical to
American fascism.
- wolf -
People's Commissar
Duh, it was printed in TBF, stupid. Not just my stuff. I never gave them
DDocs to print, just other stuff. Note that your suckup stuck us in his
post.
Now, fuck off, Pedophilan.
Tani Jantsang
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:B9F668C3.4A13%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
People's Commissar
still here doh. None of our stuff is LaVeyan, DUH. It never was. I never
thought it was. When asked offline, I said it's NOT. None of us ever
regarded LaVey's sillyness as anything legitimately of ANY religion - BACK
THEN before you were born.
Point of fact, the Gilmore era CoS used our stuff. We never used theirs.
Period.
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:B9F71A82.4A4F%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
People's Commissar
out. Not even ONE idea. No one would have ever talked to the likes of
those people. Yes, Gilmore KNOWS this but he's another latecomer. The CoS
only got some stuff from us in 1989, starting right there and ONLY because I
was pretty much "told" to give it to them. Well, I didn't actually - Phil
and Wayne did. They published it alright, in "official" magazines.
Whatever. They were only too happy TO get it. That's for sure. And well,
you DO have correspondence to that effect. That they are printed in there
and retitlted "ROOTS" is all the proof anyone needs. We never used THEIR
stuff.
Pedophilan is only trying to obscure issues. He must be totally pent up
again to go on this NEW rampage. He needs to get off. Fix his make up.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd20196$0$12510$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
People's Commissar
linked to FCOS. Egan was never linked to SR. Egan didn't dump anything.
We kept our distance from the start.
Why? Because he doesn't know the Doctrines but puts himself up as if he
does. That's why. Not for any OTHER reason, Pedophilan.
Lying makes you look like a total ass. Go fix your fucking make up.
Tani Jantsang
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:B9F71A82.4A4F%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
People's Commissar
that the Dark Tradition was the ROOTS of Satanism! And you had extensively
studied this elsewhere on your own and saw our stuff was the same, stated in
a very pure form, and agreed with that. That's my understand of this. You
knew this stuff before you ever heard of ANY Satanic organization, from
school you knew it. I might even still have a letter about that, your first
one. You didn't learn it from us. You KNEW it already yet never heard of
"satanism." But Gilmore wrote that to you about "this" being the ROOTS of
Satanism. Inso telling you this, he defrauded you. But he did say it.
The bitcher is (snicker) that he really does understand and feel that stuff!
Now he is surrounded by the very know nothings of whom he said, "I want to
EXTERMINATE them" to me on the phone. Heh! He's surrounded by yes men and
assholes like Filan that, by spreading lies about perceived enemies of their
org (in fact, we are not, we don't give a shit about them one way or the
other) makes the entire org look like shit. Filan does them no favors by
doing this. But then, pent up people are always a problem. Gilmore used to
have expressions for his type: "he's reacting to himself." Yah, G knows
this stuff alright. Pity - no one else he can even talk to knows it. They
all left.
Ask me about it, you did but much later. The Dark Tradition has nothing to
do with the abomination in the tidy-bowl known as LaVey's club. I did tell
you that in more polite language when you asked me (awhile after you joined
them). You asked why I had anything to do with them. I told you - and
Casey was here at the time: WE DON'T.
But you are right, Gilmore, as a spokesperson said this and that. And yes,
you also have copies of those letters, some of them, the ones I found filed
in the "whatever" file. The rest I heaved. We have our own stuff - always
did. True, the 1960's stuff is IMPOSSIBLE to read without a decoder. B saw
some of it - I had to write down translations of words since no names of
things were in English, like dark force, flame, etc - none of it is in
English. It's not explained out for beginners at all. I told B, well,
it's the same as in the DT articles we sell. he said "NO, it's not, it's a
lot heavier." Ok.
Aside from the SSS, no one ever called any of this Satanism. That is true.
why? Because Satanism became linked to Anton (just as the Wiccans have been
saying) and in order to be that kind of satanist, you HAVE to be a
Christian. This is our opinion. It's why we did NOT use that label. It's
the same reason Wicca decided to non-person Michelet and Robbins and
portions of Aradia. DISTANCE. That was then. This is now. Btw... not on
here. You have to see something.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd20195$0$12510$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
Axolotl2
People's Hypocrite wrote:
>
> Incessant lying gets you nowhere, and proves you to be a liar. SR was never
> linked to FCOS. Egan was never linked to SR. Egan didn't dump anything.
> We kept our distance from the start.
Really?!!! http://churchofsatan.org/tani.jpg
People's Commissar
encourages CHILDREN.
Now go take it up your ass. By means, DO NOT make any kids.
"Axolotl2" <anon...@cotsebay.cotse.net> wrote in message
news:YYLMMF133757...@anonymous.poster...
People's Commissar
gobbled up, were blatherings about "man is an animal" like they had to be
shown HOW man is an animal. Doh! They are in TBF to be seen. Compare that
to the ten ton heavy stuff in the doctrines. Grasp it, that was their
speed. What we sold, what YOU BOUGHT, had nothing to do with their
sillyness. You have to understand something clearly here - WE KNEW this.
Did we outright say this to people who were known to be COS members? Hell
no. Not unless any of us knew them better and then WITH CAUTION. It's
no-brainer to see why. Most of us never talked to those people, especially
in person. Blyah. They are just so "whatever."
Now, how man is quite NOT like an animal is a whole other thing having to do
with the "obic" and the flame. THAT is something no one in the COS ever
knew we KNEW about and themselves never knew about. Guess who knows about
that. Guess. Start with first letter of alphabet. And is this easy to
exactly understand? B and Kaid didn't understand it, neither did Casey
except to start "seeing" something none of them wanted to even glimpse.
Sure, you can analyze it, but it's a whole other thing to SEE it. Stuff I
wrote for TBF was kiddie simple shit. Wayne and Phil wrote the Roots info.
Brendan wrote Seeing Red. I didn't write ANYTHING heavy like that for them.
OH yeah, that one on Lucifer and Satan, the difference. They were back
there pondering something "Anton said" about people who prefer one or the
other being different. I mean - THAT was where they were at, Ole. Nowhere.
Get the Cloven Hoofs. B has them all from the first ones unless he gave
them away; he decided to take a look at just what this "thing" was he was
having a war for. There is nothing in there worth a shit, just trite
whatever or stuff about "the herd." Obvious stuff.
Filan doesn't savvy - Charlie is older than Anton would have been. HE IS an
old old timer. So is Joan. He also didn't care if he got photographed
which is a major point. These people are private and very secretive types.
Wayne's photo is not up there, you know. Neither is Gerard's. No way.
Even amongst the witchcraft/warlock crowd, the concept of satan was no big
deal and just Wheatley's stuff alone - best selling stuff, you KNOW groups
formed. These people tend to be secretive. They aren't hungering for herd
acceptance or Hollywood shit. That's just not where they are "AT."
We did not connect ourselves to satanism due to the "LaVey Effect" even tho
some of the Kishites were self-professed satanists - western people. They
stopped even using that label due to the SHIT that went down. Most Wiccans
don't even use Lillith due to the LaVey Effect. It's called distance.
Filan wasn't even BORN when this stuff was happening. He's just jealous
that Aquino had a way higher position than Gilmore had when Anton was alive.
And, by the looks of it, he's pent up again.
"People's Commissar" <tanija...@www.com> wrote in message
news:ut483rf...@corp.supernews.com...
Lisa
Seven total posts on one thread so far, and the day is young! Congratulations
to Kevin on provoking a truly spectacular series of kook-rants; it's not often
she gets this wound up these days.
<< But you are right, Gilmore, as a spokesperson said this and that. And yes,
you also have copies of those letters, some of them, the ones I found filed in
the "whatever" file. The rest I heaved. >>
Just as I foretold, you post this "WE had EVIDENCE but we conveniently LOST it"
excuse.
<<True, the 1960's stuff is IMPOSSIBLE to read without a decoder. >>
Is it a -Captain Midnight- decoder....?
<< Aside from the SSS, no one ever called any of this Satanism. >>
And we're certainly not calling it that now.
So, I think we can sucessfully deduce that no, there is no evidence whatsoever
that LaVey used the Dark Doctrines as a basis for the CoS or the SB. The Black
Flame is not based on the DD either, as far as I can tell. Nor is TBF the
Satanic Bible.
Now go fix that bat-winged makeup, Phyllis, and please... adjust that ponytail
waving from the crown of your head. Anyone can see it's been pulled a wee bit
too tightly for *years* now. What little CSF you have needs to circulate
freely!
One more thing: namecalling is not going to obscure the fact that this claim,
not unlike -all- your other ones, is founded upon hot air and nothing else.
Isn't that a bitch?
another lie bites the dust:
L.
GOD
"People's Commissar" <tanija...@www.com> wrote in message
news:ut46uf3...@corp.supernews.com...
> Pedophilan is only trying to obscure issues. He must be totally pent up
> again to go on this NEW rampage. He needs to get off. Fix his make up.
He better trim those damn eyebrows! He looks like Gandolf (Lord of the
Rings) from the eyelid up and the forehead down...
GOD
It's called distance.
> Filan wasn't even BORN when this stuff was happening. He's just jealous
> that Aquino had a way higher position than Gilmore had when Anton was
alive.
> And, by the looks of it, he's pent up again.
He's reacting to himself...
GOD
"Lisa" <exec...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20021113084622...@mb-fb.aol.com...
Victor LeNettoyeur™
$12510$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
Yet you bothered to interject the following:
> Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
> because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
> members dating back to the early 1970es...
If you aren't interested in defending her position then why the obfuscation?
> (It's not *my* problem, after all.)
I don't see it as anyone's problem. I thought it might be a catalyst for an
interesting discussion. On this matter I'm far more sympathetic to your
(plural and general) position than you might assume, and it's a shame you
can not/will not substantiate your own specific claims.
Every time Tani is challenged it's an opportunity for her to clarify her
positions and expound on her own opinions. Rather than do so, she and her
friends turn the potential discussion into a chest-thumping egocentric
fight. It's a shame, really.
>
> - wolf -
RyanS2
> Tani's various writings, but also in the form of Peter Gilmore referring to
> Tani's material as the roots of Satanism.
>
> - wolf -
Wolf, there are plenty of cached search engines that hold material,
can you dig up a link to show what you're talking about? Thanks.
- wolf -
> > Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
> > because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with CoS
> > members dating back to the early 1970es...
>
> If you aren't interested in defending her position then why the
obfuscation?
Because at the very least those that do know about these letters can nod
when they're reading this.
> I don't see it as anyone's problem. I thought it might be a catalyst for
an
> interesting discussion.
I think Peter Gilmore wrote an article about your (plural) desire for
"interesting discussions" a while back.
- wolf -
RyanS2
was a group called "Societas Selectus Satanas". To quote her:
>In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two
Frenchmen, M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had
it >and I read it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one
of these groups, at this time out of Queens NY>
I must commend those Christians on their excellent grasp of classical
languages, the name of their group gives away that they did not
pre-exist LaVey. The only person who ever used the Latin word Satanas
was Anton LaVey, quite simply, you will not find Satanas in any Latin
dictionary, or any Latin source. The word Satanas is Greek, properly
declined, it looks like this:
Nominative Satanas
Vocative Satana
Accusative Satanan
Genitive Satanou
Dative Satana
If this was a Greek name, it would have to be Satanas used as Satanou,
to show the genitive case. The genitive case is used to discuss
possession of something, such as: nomen Evae (Eve's name, the name of
Eve), Gabrielis ore (Gabriel's mouth, the mouth of Gabriel), nonnulli
Romanorum: (Some of the Romans), timor Romanorum: (Fear of the
Romans), vir magnae humanitatis: (A man of great kindness), and so
forth.
These phrases show that the genitive case has relationships between:
Part/whole relationships: (Some of the Romans)
Situations where one noun is the object of another (fear of the
Romans)
Qualities that attach to another noun (A man of...)
In the case of Societas Selectus Satanas it is attaching Societas with
Satanas, which shows possession and should thus be genitive. The rough
translation they're going for is The Select Society of Satan. More
accurate is The Chosen Association of Satan, but that's just for kicks
and flicks. A note for newbies, Latin doesn't have articles in it, so
they are automatically added into there when translating. The word
Selectus isn't a Greek word, it was formed out of Latin by the words
seligere/selectus = to choose out: se = apart + legere = to choose.
So, it's clearly a Latin phrase that this group was aiming for.
Now, it's obvious what they did was look through a Latin to English
dictionary, and then choose the first word which pops up there, (the
nominative case, almost always), and make that to their name. What any
Latin Dictionary will show when you look at Satan is this:
Nominative Satana
Vocative Satana
Accusative Satanam
Genitive Satanae
Dative Satanae
Ablative Satana
Why didn't they look that up and we have something else? Satanas, as
used in Latin by St. Jerome, or later by Carmina Burana, is used in
the vocative, that is to say, they are addressing Satan. Anyone with
any knowledge of declensions would have figured out that wouldn't have
followed through properly when using it as a nominative masculine
noun, but let's not whine about what's unimportant. The point is that
no one ever used Satanas in nominative form before, and certainly not
in genitive form, which would be how this should be done properly. So,
the question then comes up, who was the one person who always used
Satanas for addressing Satan? The only person, and I do mean only, is
Anton LaVey. Anton LaVey used it, and his popularity with that phrase
has caused a continuation of it throughout the Satanic community,
apparently no one bothering to actually learn the language before they
parrot it. In fact, type the word "Satanas" on a search engine and
see how many people are parroting Lavey's incorrect declension of
Latin.
Is that all? No, there's more clues from a linguistic position. Next,
the word Societas. It's a feminine form, taken from another feminine
form socia/socie. It's part of a nominative singular feminine
declension. Now, Selectus is singular nominative masculine, while
societas is the opposite gender, an adjective of the feminine gender
type. Latin adjectives and nouns must match in both gender and number,
making that a wrongful word grouping. Here's how that word breaks
down:
N societas
G societatis
D societati
A societatem
AB societate
The whole thing is just a horribly botched example of bad Latin. The
most damaging thing, however, is that the term Satanas simply isn't
found pre-LaVey, and ironically, one of his numerous mistakes turns
out to be his own vindication. Perhaps LaVey was prophetic in this
regard?
So, let's review. There are two wrong declensions, a noun and an
adjective which don't match in gender, a Greek word instead of a Latin
word, and that Greek word is being used improperly.
If you're still with me at this point, I'll point out something else.
Where did the name originate? While many love to blast Anton LaVey as
being a reactionary Catholic, what I know is that SSS is used by the
Roman Catholic Church, and stands for Societas Sanctissimi Sacramenti,
(Fathers of the Blessed Sacrament). It would appear to me that the
word Sacramenti was taken out and LaVey's Satanas was used, and
switched Sanctissimi with the word Selectus. Ironically, that would
make it an inverse of Catholicism.
The damaging portion of this is four-fold. If I may:
The Satanic Reds claims to have numerous lingustic experts, but I know
this being somewhat juvenile in Latin, and no one else spotted this.
Latin is the easiest of languages to learn, this oversight can't be
overlooked.
It shows that attacks on Anton LaVey will go on any level, without
regard for the truth.
The SR has no traditional Satanic claim, all claims are relatively
new, rather than part of an older mythos.
This will probably be used by anti-SR's for years to come.
Of course, I actively urge people to disagree with me on this issue,
and post this message up to any Latin speaking group for verification.
You can also check any Latin dictionary and see if you can find
"Satanas". I could always be wrong, so take this with a big huge bag
of salt, and call your local Latin professor up and see if I'm wrong.
Axolotl2
People's Hypocrite wrote:
>
> Indeed, MY culture practices young MARRIAGE between males and females and
> encourages CHILDREN.
http://churchofsatan.org/tani.jpg
Your culture? Are you talking about your New Jersey white trash culture
or your Florida retirement community culture? In fact you are confiding
in the old fat child fucker that one of your associates was "hauled into
court" for having sex with a 12 year old girl as part of an "initiation"
and from this letter it is obvious that you were well aware of the
tenets of NAMBLA at the time although you now claim ignorance. Tell me
Tani, did you get married before or after you found yourself pregnant at 13?
> Now go take it up your ass. By means, DO NOT make any kids.
Once again Tani Jantsang's true feelings about homosexuality comes
glaring through! Perhaps "Magus Lazarus" was just practicing a
contraception technique with Courageous Jessica? I think that another
pregnancy would probably ruin Jessica's acting and modeling career.
Victor LeNettoyeur™
$63888$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> "Victor LeNettoyeurT" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:YWVvbg==.43c582a9b9ef75c012e733b26113270a@1037216178.cotse.net...
> > > Anyway, Tani does have some credibility on this one,
> > > because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with
CoS
> > > members dating back to the early 1970es...
> >
> > If you aren't interested in defending her position then why the
> obfuscation?
>
> Because at the very least those that do know about these letters can nod
> when they're reading this.
Great. Any time you want to give them (whoever "those that do know" are)
something to nod about you can post the evidence you allude to but refuse
to bring forth.
>
> > I don't see it as anyone's problem. I thought it might be a catalyst for
> an
> > interesting discussion.
>
> I think Peter Gilmore wrote an article about your (plural) desire for
> "interesting discussions" a while back.
Oh? And this has what to do with you, me, Kevin Filan, Tani, or the price
of tea in Seattle? Furthermore: Why should I care about Peter Gilmore and
what he writes? Why should he care about me and the conversations I enter
into on alt.satanism?
Just more non sequitur and completely irrelevant nonsense in response to a
direct question, isn't it? Or are you such a collectivist thinker that you
can't conceive of free-thought anywhere else in the universe?
- wolf -
> Just more non sequitur and completely irrelevant nonsense in response to a
> direct question, isn't it? Or are you such a collectivist thinker that you
> can't conceive of free-thought anywhere else in the universe?
Maybe I just consider you uninteresting. Feel free to speculate as long as
you care.
- wolf -
- wolf -
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> >In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two
> Frenchmen, M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had
> it >and I read it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one
> of these groups, at this time out of Queens NY>
>
> I must commend those Christians on their excellent grasp of classical
Summary of the snipped part: The only one that used the word "Satanis"
(because of lacking language skills) was LaVey, and consequently either the
SSS would either accidentally have made the same mistake, or more likely
have taken over the word from LaVey. (Right?)
To be fair, however, I don't recall having heard Tani state that the group
forming the SSS existed prior to the 1970es - at least not under that name.
Her claim that various groups never used the 'S' word back then would simply
imply that IF the group existed before LaVey came around, it changed its
name. So you haven't entirely rejected her claims. (But, to be equally
fair to you, although lack of proof doesn't constitute proof of the
opposite, enough lack of proof does diminish credibility.)
- wolf -
Victor LeNettoyeur™
> "Victor LeNettoyeurT" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:YWVvbg==.a4113a2b619e045be32dc3c57deba113@1037218873.cotse.net...
> > Just more non sequitur and completely irrelevant nonsense in response
to a
> > direct question, isn't it? Or are you such a collectivist thinker that
you
> > can't conceive of free-thought anywhere else in the universe?
>
> Maybe I just consider you uninteresting.
Wow, another completely irrelevant response with all the meaty issues
neatly snipped away. I'm impressed. You been taking lessons from John H
Shaw; or is this the source of his expertise in usenet obfuscation in the
flesh?
LOL! Hideous!
> Feel free to speculate as long as
> you care.
I doubt anyone on this forum has much doubt as to the truth of the matter
at this point.
>
> - wolf -
/victor
Lisa
group called "Societas Selectus Satanas". To quote her:>>
That's very interesting, but it still does not prove the point that the entire
CoS is based upon the so-called "Dark Doctrines."
Phyllis: <<In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two
Frenchmen, M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had it and I
read it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one of these groups, at
this time out of Queens NY>>
Ah, the 'Fish-People from Sirius' thing again. I'm feeling more convinced by
the minute.
<<The only person who ever used the Latin word Satanas was Anton LaVey, quite
simply, you will not find Satanas in any Latin dictionary, or any Latin
source.>>
Again, that's nice, but the claim she's supposed to be refuting is not that
LaVey got the word "Satanas" from two French anthropologists. The claim is that
her "Dark Doctrines" form the doctrinal foundation of the CoS. Perhaps I'm just
not following this:
An essay about Dagonian fish people read by Phyllis + French anthropologists +
Anton LaVey = the CoS' philosophy is one and the same as the DD!
I admit to confusion there.
<<So, let's review. There are two wrong declensions, a noun and an adjective
which don't match in gender, a Greek word instead of a Latin word, and that
Greek word is being used improperly.>>
Again, nicely laid out and great reasoning.... but where's the proof Phyl's
wild and amoral TURANIAN relatives laid the foundations of the CoS back in the
Days of Yore? Is Phyllis claiming to be of Greek or Italian descent these days?
Where are these "Kishites"?
<< It would appear to me that the word Sacramenti was taken out and LaVey's
Satanas was used, and switched Sanctissimi with the word Selectus. Ironically,
that would make it an inverse of Catholicism.>>
If the entire CoS is based upon the "Dark Doctrines," which they stole lock
stock & barrel from Phyllis, what conclusion inevitably arises? If they stole
it from Phyllis, or borrowed it or whatever, then..... she's the one who's an
inverse catholic, since she claims to have thought it up or dragged it out of
the "ANCIENT generational Satanist family DOCUMENTS" which she possesses and
yet strangely, can never show.
<<You can also check any Latin dictionary and see if you can find "Satanas".>>
I have checked my Wheelock's Latin (6th edition) and I don't see it anywheres
in there; that does not really surprise me though, since I doubt discussions of
Satan figure largely in most Latin classes.
Again, I am sorry to remark that I just don't see how LaVey using the word
"Satanas" means he based the CoS upon the "Dark Doctrines." I have not seen any
evidence in those of his writings that I have read, and I have not yet seen
convincing proof of same from any other source. Bad Latin just does not equal
her claim being true.
L.
RyanS2
> "Satanas" means he based the CoS upon the "Dark Doctrines." I have not seen any
> evidence in those of his writings that I have read, and I have not yet seen
> convincing proof of same from any other source. Bad Latin just does not equal
> her claim being true.
Lol, no. The exact opposite. Bad Latin invalidates the claim that it
is pre-LaVey. The word "Satanas" was used by LaVey exclusively, i.e.
he literally invented that word. If someone else claims to pre-date
LaVey, they would *not* use a word that LaVey invented. Any group
using a word that LaVey invented is post-LaVey, not pre-LaVey.
Meaning the SSS formed long after LaVey had put the pen to paper and
begun writing. Meaning if the SSS is the source for Dark Tradition
articles, they certainly came *after*, not *prior* to the Satanic
Bible being in print. Hopefully that better explains it.
RyanS2
> (because of lacking language skills) was LaVey, and consequently either the
> SSS would either accidentally have made the same mistake, or more likely
> have taken over the word from LaVey. (Right?)
A very fair summary.
> To be fair, however, I don't recall having heard Tani state that the group
> forming the SSS existed prior to the 1970es - at least not under that name.
> Her claim that various groups never used the 'S' word back then would simply
> imply that IF the group existed before LaVey came around, it changed its
> name. So you haven't entirely rejected her claims. (But, to be equally
> fair to you, although lack of proof doesn't constitute proof of the
> opposite, enough lack of proof does diminish credibility.)
>
> - wolf -
True, as you should be well aware, when establishing a negative
existential postulation, (that is, prove to me that *X* doesn't
exist), you cannot prove it through a positive basis, you can merely
establish an a fortiori basis, (roughly translating into "with
stronger reason"), to accept that the claim is not substantial. Does
the preponderance of evidence make it more plausible that A is true
versus B being true?
For example, you must admit that the odds of two people coincidentally
inventing the same wrong name are somewhat suspect. If A invents a
word, and B uses that word, then B has assumably read A's material.
Richard Dawkins invented the word "meme", so assumably someone using
that word has either read Dawkins or come across it by someone who
has. It'd be strange to think that someone else could coincidentally
invent the same word twice.
Therefore, since the B, (Dark Doctrine), groups had read LaVey, and
apparently changed their name to suit his misunderstanding of Latin,
then it must mean that the Dark Doctrines were formulated by exposure
to CoS material, and not vice versa. Even if solely in
reaction/rejection against CoS material, nonetheless it's still
formulated by exposure.
Victor LeNettoyeur™
$63847$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> "RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > >In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two
> > Frenchmen, M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had
> > it >and I read it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one
> > of these groups, at this time out of Queens NY>
> >
> > I must commend those Christians on their excellent grasp of classical
>
> Summary of the snipped part: The only one that used the word "Satanis"
> (because of lacking language skills) was LaVey, and consequently either
the
> SSS would either accidentally have made the same mistake, or more likely
> have taken over the word from LaVey. (Right?)
>
> To be fair, however, I don't recall having heard Tani state that the group
> forming the SSS existed prior to the 1970es - at least not under that
name.
> Her claim that various groups never used the 'S' word back then would
simply
> imply that IF the group existed before LaVey came around, it changed its
> name. So you haven't entirely rejected her claims.
Oh my gawd this is funny.
Let me explain something to you -wolf-: It's not Ryan's job to freakin'
disprove your durga's nutty and baseless boasting. The burden of proof is
on him (or nominally "her" in this case) that asserts the theorem to begin
with.
Were you an American you'd know this basic logical tenet in about the fifth
grade. I'll be kind to you mindless nordic types who slept through their
gratis state university courses before going on lifelong welfare.
> (But, to be equally
> fair to you, although lack of proof doesn't constitute proof of the
> opposite, enough lack of proof does diminish credibility.)
Your durga hasn't any credibility to begin with; so it's not much of a net
loss, is it?
tim jordan
Well, I've always like the saying, "the devil's in the details." Just get
ready for Tani's apologists to make a piddling effort at discrediting your
points. Once this fails, they usually try to expose personal information
including your home address and where you work (hope you haven't been too
forthcoming with them -- if you're smart, you lied). Of course, this is
done by someone who isn't an alleged member of the Satanic Retards, but
always has nice things to write about Jantsang in alt.satanism. If you've
really gotten under Tani's skin you might get a veiled death threat from
Gerber or another of Tani's castrati crew. If this happens, just post the
email here for all to laugh. Nothing ever happens in the real world from
this bunch of fascist fuck tards. When someone prank called Gerber after I
posted his home telephone number on the board (after all he gave it to me in
a threatening email), the old rectal cancer cunt claimed it was me doing the
dialing and that he had *proof*. When I asked him to present the coppers
with this, he stopped posting to the forum. (Honestly, I dunno if it was the
chemo or the fact that I reported him to his ISP.)
Regards,
Harry Lime
http://www.harrylimetv.com/
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
Nostridomian
>We never used a thing of theirs. Period. I'm not the one who said in
>writing that the Dark Tradition was the "foundation" of Satanism. THEY said
>it. Meanwhile, we kept our stuff to ourselves and separate.
>Bull fucking shit on that one. We have sold Doctrines of LHP for decades
>and the stuff we offer for free has NOTHING to do with other organizations.
>Notably so. Very notably so! No one has to invent some religion or
>reinvent atheism with Addam's Family trappings. We have legit Dark
>Tradition. We don't need what you have. Or accept it. Unlike the Temple
>of Set, we did NOT originate with you. We predate you, can easily prove
>that, and we are NOT connected to you. You are LaVeyans. Period. Not LHP
>at all. You have no Doctrines. You might end up with "scripture" if Peter
>ever finishes it.
>
>
Did I ever say I even wanted to be LHP? Hah! Seeing what the oh so sacred Left
Hand Path truly is I am quite glad you consider Satanism to be totally seperate
from it. I don't want "Dark Doctrines" of any sort. I don't need your pathetic
traditions or doctrines. As a Satanist I am my own culture, my own tradition,
and my own doctrine.
But I am quite sure people like you need some "tradition" to validate your
existance. To make you feel all special. And I am quite sure Gilmore's
"scriptures" will be far more interesting and entertaining than the dribble you
call doctrine. I've read it, laughed at it, and got over it.
Sincerly
It is nice to be a true Satanist and worship Anton LaVey.
*Laughs*
- wolf -
> > Maybe I just consider you uninteresting.
>
> Wow, another completely irrelevant response with all the meaty issues
> neatly snipped away. I'm impressed. You been taking lessons from John H
> Shaw; or is this the source of his expertise in usenet obfuscation in the
> flesh?
No. I simply decided not to find, scan, and upload copies of those letters,
because not even a written statement from Anton LaVey would had convinced
you anyway. You don't mean enough to me to make me bother trying.
- wolf -
- wolf -
---snip---
I'm not defending Tani. I'm listing possibilities and correcting errors.
- wolf -
- wolf -
> apparently changed their name to suit his misunderstanding of Latin,
> then it must mean that the Dark Doctrines were formulated by exposure
> to CoS material, and not vice versa. Even if solely in
> reaction/rejection against CoS material, nonetheless it's still
> formulated by exposure.
If my memory serves me right, the SSS was a largely Lovecraftian-inspired
group that also used the dark doctrines. I'm not sure whether Tani was
actually part of that group or just loosely involved with them. In contrast
to what Victor believes, I agree with you that it's fair to say that either
this group was formed *after* they'd read _The Satanic Bible_, or they
changed their name and at the very least considered themselves in strong
enough agreement with LaVey to use his expression. Changing their name
really is an option, considering how often Satanic groups seem to break
apart and then reappear with a number of members leaving and starting a
spin-off organization with another name. But you cannot readily conclude
that just because Tani cites this group as an example of a group that
existed early on *and* used the 'S' word, then this group "invented" the
dark doctrines. As I said to Kevin Filan in another newsgroup message,
"dark doctrines" may not be a universally recognized name, but the general
ideas are readily observable at many points in human history, and certainly
also a few millennia before the SSS came around. There's a physical limit
determined by Tani's age to how far she can possibly go back in time
mentioning groups that she knew about personally. The SSS would be at a
time when she was about 20, I think. Going significantly further back and
still claim personal involvement would be impossible. (Of course, with the
logic applied by certain "critics" on this newsgroup, they would demand that
she go further back in time with examples of personal involvement than her
own birth date before they believed her, and only then complain about the
fact that she'd have done the impossible.)
- wolf -
People's Commissar
files.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
People's Commissar
name for them is netstalkers. They are obsessed over nothing that should
bother them.
People in cultures that use the Esoteric Tradition are in the MILLIONS.
There is, I think, a pylon or something in the Temple of Set that uses it
too, just as accurately as anyone else. We present it in a very pure form
and use it in our org. This is a problem for these trolls HOW? Oh, it's
not "LaVeyan." That's the only problem they seem to have with it. No one
that studies the stuff we sell sees this as somehow "connected" to the
PERSON of me. And that's good. You knew about these traditions before you
heard of me. MANY did - that's the point. These people here are black
holes. Net stalkers.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd2b1b4$0$63888$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
People's Commissar
except that person A wrote to person B about Esoteric Tradition and such
things. LOL. You knew the Dark Tradition from wholly outside of Satanism.
What can you do, "prove" that you knew this from conversations you had with
someone? These people are concerning themselves and fretting over shit that
they need not be bothered with.
We have our org. They have theirs. We DO NOT use their stuff. That should
make them happy.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd20195$1$12510$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> "Victor LeNettoyeurT" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:YWVvbg==.d59160e25575fcb17e62b72f1a9a8ea2@1037115455.cotse.net...
> > > because I've seen letters between her and others communicating with
CoS
> > > members dating back to the early 1970es.
> >
> > That's called hearsay, and it means exactly shit -- but then you knew
that
> > didn't you. Publish the evidence you claim you've seen for peer review.
>
> I'm sure she can do that if she's interested in defending her position.
> Personally, I won't bother. (It's not *my* problem, after all.)
>
> - wolf -
>
>
People's Commissar
ourself with th ings that need not concern you. That IS one of YOUR tenets,
right? Obviously, you are not a LaVeyan after all since you stray from your
own "thing" and concern yourself with another that need not concern you.
Try focusing instead on things you DO like, if that's even possible, boy. I
doubt you can do that.
Us? Yes, we do hold the Esoteric Tradition to be Adamantile Knowledge.
Sacred if you wish to call it that. And this bothers you how?
"Nostridomian" <nostri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021114005019...@mb-fw.aol.com...
>
> Did I ever say I even wanted to be LHP? Hah! Seeing what the oh so sacred
Left
> Hand Path truly is I am quite glad you consider Satanism to be totally
seperate
> from it. I don't want "Dark Doctrines" of any sort. I don't need your
pathetic
> traditions or doctrines. As a Satanist I am my own culture, my own
tradition,
> and my own doctrine.
I doubt that. You are far too concerned with things that are NOT of
yourself. NOT of you, NOT for you. You remind me of a Christian on a
crusade.
>
> But I am quite sure people like you need some "tradition" to validate your
That's your limit of comprehension about Being and Becoming. Nothing
validates existence. One either exists or one does not exist. You, imo, do
not exist in the state of Being. You react to yourself far too much.
> existance. To make you feel all special.
That's YOUR kick. Not any of ours. You are raging right now, on here,
about things that need not concern you if you had a life in the first place.
You are bitching and whining.
> It is nice to be a true Satanist and worship Anton LaVey.
Good for you. But you are not worshiping LaVey now. You are bitching and
whining about an org that uses NOTHING of yours. Curious, eh?
>
> *Laughs*
You are not laughing. You are wincing and cringing and being pent up. You
are inflicting yourself and subjecting yourself to things you need only
IGNORE. Inso doing, you make the cos look bad. Amazing how you people
manage to do this.
People's Commissar
it a forest and fogetting about the trees therein.
Lin spoke not one word of Latin, neither did Wayne. And yes, this predated
any involvment I had too. Satana (no S) was another variation but that
sounded feminine. Lin was in fact very poor at writing things that sounded
like "scripture" - tho he tried. It was a GOOF. From a letter, NO
letterheads:
QUOTE:
September 2, 1973
Greetings Zond Malek, the slobberer in canned shoggoth.
How dare you mail me that? Yeee gads that shit was gooey but the kids
played with it. What is it? Soft clay?
HA HA, you took the name from the Catlicks? Societas Sanctissimi Sacramenti?
So what does THAT mean? Society of Sanctified Sacraments? HAAAA. Ok, the
sacred sacrament, the holy of holies, is Ralph Wallstonecraf Hedge's
sister's, that would be Cutter Hedge, green jello. Does the Big N still use
it? OH, I talked to him. He plans a book for the Nec.
I prefer the SWS, neat name, no negative shit attached to it. We might make
our own since there are too many people. Probably take something from real
history, maybe middle eastern stuff. Babylonian maybe.
So then, what happened with Ginger and Richie? And what's up with that
LaVey shit you guys got into? What's the deal with that? Stay away from
them. Bad news. It's why no one is even playing around with satan jokes
anymore. Bad news. Ever meet any of these people in person? I met one -
had to create "Jesus preaching" out of whole cloth to shoo the asshole away.
YICH. Bad news. Change your group name. Serious. Don't use that shit.
Everyone here agrees on that.
END QUOTE (personal stuff follows, not quoted)
So, you see, it was a GOOF - but the actual doings of the people in it were
NOT goofs at all. That the Baphomet predates LaVey is not even an issue.
It's in a book for shit's sakes. It never was a sigil that meant satan,
either. I personally never used that sigil, ftr.
And? WE, however, did not call our offshoot by any name with "Satan" in it.
We had no letterhead, no membership cards. Why bother? This was more or
less a group of a LOT of different kinds of people from various Heremetic,
Kaballistic, Tantrik and Gnostic too, backgrounds. None of these people
self-identified as Satanists. The group we made that directly went into to
forming SR was pure Dark Tradition and NEVER used either satan or lucifer
stuff. There were some in SWS that did self-identify that way, as
Satanists, very early on but not for long. They abandoned that label as
"too Christian" in the 1970's. Only ONE group retained that SSS name in
McKeesport - everyone else abandoned it. And what is your point? The word
as pronounced "Sah-tahn-ahss" was in MOVIES, Ryan. I would imagine that is
where Lin got it - and NOT from anywhere else! That would have been like
him to do that plus make a joke of it - keep in mind no one ever saw this
stuff except people IN it and it was a laugh. You neglected to notice that
in your detour into "erudite Latin scholarship." Keep in mind, the cards
and such were considered a JOKE to the ones invovled. Or did you miss that?
Tongue in cheek. Did you miss that? Yeah, you sure did.
SR is a Dark Tradition organization. WE, down here, conceived of the idea
along with some people we didn't know in person, to make Kishites into a
more public oriented thing with standard, traditional stuff made PUBLIC and
not just sold or kept esoteric. AND political. Did this elude you? How
some of the people here that are older went from one to the other is
documented in that - nothing ELSE is being implied there. Did that also
elude you? Yes, it did. See, that's your problem. You notice one thing in
a lop sided fashion and MISS the main thing. The main thing: the SSS never
wrote a thing about satan OR lucifer and was not about that at all. Well,
some Gnostics in it had Lucifer - but they mean that in a very different
way. They used the sigil of SOPHIA - of Samael and Lilith. THAT IS
something worth knowing about. Does anyone in SR care about any of this,
however? NO NO NO NO NO. Of couse, YOU never got to find that out. That's
your problem. Half assed research. Focus on irrelevant details, missing
the entire thing.
See inside.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> >In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two
> Frenchmen, M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had
> it >and I read it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one
> of these groups, at this time out of Queens NY>
Why would this netstalking lunatic want proof of anything? Why does this
concern her in her personal life so much? That's not a question. I know why.
She tried to be friendly and I told her to fuck off. End of story. If
she's not netstalking me, she's used to netstalk the COS's people.
Whatever. That's her "life." I don't see her posts. No time for that
filth anymore.
>
> I must commend those Christians on their excellent grasp of classical
> languages, the name of their group gives away that they did not
> pre-exist LaVey.
Oh yes they did, sweetie. If anything, they got ideas from WHEATLEY- and
that was something I saw right away as soon as I read Wheatley - "oh, so
THAT is where they got that." Yes indeed. I even outright asked and YUP.
Most correspondence I had with them was without letterhead since it was just
"whatever." See above. I'm not going to bother trying to find stuff over
30 years old to turn into etext for anyone - NONE of it matters to anyone in
SR. Repeat that to yourself: "matters to anyone in SR." People did ask me
to explain some of this, especially the ones that found Sr and recognized us
from way back then. WE have a Dark Tradition. Period. Anyone doesn't like
it they can ignore it. Simple? It should be simple. We aren't about
LaVey. GET THAT THRU YOUR HEAD. 99% of us STOPPED using the satan joke due
to LaVey. Even Wayne stopped eventually. I think in 1978 they were no
longer using that group name at all. I'd have to go over old stuff and see
when that got mentioned as having been DROPPED due to it being just a royal
pain in the ass. I'm NOT about to do that, Ryan. That's work. The letter
quotes above I have in a file about specific stuff, not hard to find. It's
not on website since it's not all that relevant to the 1972 thing.
> translation they're going for is The Select Society of Satan. More
> accurate is The Chosen Association of Satan, but that's just for kicks
> and flicks.
NOW you got it. Kicks and flicks. Bingo, Ryan. No, it wasn't the chosen
anything or the satan anything. That should have been OBVIOUS from the rest
of what you read IN context.
> A note for newbies, Latin doesn't have articles in it, so
Nobody spoke Latin or gave a shit about it, Ryan. I MET some of these
people later on. They were serious about real doctrines - but on the rest
of the stuff it was pure 100% fun all the way. Do you ever have fun?
> in genitive form, which would be how this should be done properly. So,
> the question then comes up, who was the one person who always used
> Satanas for addressing Satan?
The SSS was about many things, but "satan" was absolutely NOT one of those
things. Catch a clue, there. They knew the Baphomet meant Sophia, however.
They knew it was used in VERY MUCH the way Temple of Lylyth uses it,
regarding doctrines on Samael and Lility (and Azazel). They did know this.
Note please that these 3 things are NOT "satan." And that is precisely why
everyone else dropped it when someone actually did start to use that sigil
and call their church "satan." Get it? WHY did you think it got dropped?
OH, you didn't think. Why would they change their name to something no one
would connect to anything "satan" in the 1970's and 80's? OH, you didn't
ask! In the reams of correspondence I have and doctrines that would need
explaining, not ONCE is "satan" mentioned.
>
> Is that all? No, there's more clues from a linguistic position.
Your problem is that you assume too much. You get hogtied in linguistic
shit as if ANYONE gives a fuck about the SSS. They used the Baphomet - they
were the ONLY ones who did. What they knew it meant is in the paragraph I
just wrote. We didn't. I say again, nowhere is "satan" a subject in any
correspondence from them on serious matters. Nowhere.
> The Satanic Reds claims to have numerous lingustic experts,
Sorry you never got to interact with some friendly people that do speak
other languages or get into heady things? We claim that? The only expert I
thought was one - due to his actual research in Finland, was Kari. Kari
doesn't speak Latin as far as I know. But see the rest of what I wrote
since you are really on a roll here and talking out of your ass since you
NEGELCTED to note the statement about "showing cards with a grin" implying
it was a joke. The SSS was never about satan in any sense of that word, not
Lucifer, NOTHING like that. No one ever saw those cards except people IN
IT. Do you know how to have fun, Ryan?
but I know
> this being somewhat juvenile in Latin, and no one else spotted this.
> Latin is the easiest of languages to learn, this oversight can't be
> overlooked.
No one CARES. Grasp that concept. We are Dark Tradition. PERIOD.
>
> It shows that attacks on Anton LaVey will go on any level, without
> regard for the truth.
We don't care about LaVey either. I'd not say that the SSS was even
satanic. They were very different. And again, everyone else STOPPED using
anything like that, even for a joke - later on.
>
> The SR has no traditional Satanic claim, all claims are relatively
> new, rather than part of an older mythos.
No, you are wrong. We are Dark Tradition and that IS old. This IS what we
go for. You apparently don't even realize this. We are not satanic like
ANY of the LaVeyan offshoots are at all, not even a little. Do you have a
problem with that? Yes, we claim LHP and claim that satanism is part of
LHP - not the other way around, Ryan. The TOS, btw, claims that satanism is
part of LHP too. In fact, everyone claims that satanism is part of LHP.
LOL. Did you neglect to notice that we construct "satan" from two PUNNED
words: Sat and Tan? If you want to ask me why we decided to do this, ask
me in email. The Sr's already know why we do that because BEFORE joining the
org, they read everything about it.
We claim to be LHP and very few of the Sr's self-identify as satanists, as a
matter of fact. We claim to be esoteric eastern tradition or "dark
tradition." Most of the SR's distance themselves from the "satan" label for
very simple reasons. For one, they are utterly disgusted by 99% of the
people that use that label.
>
> This will probably be used by anti-SR's for years to come.
They can use whateer they want. That document details the accurate history
of something simply to GIVE it. It IS where we came from, more or less. Sr
is not like the SSS, however - if not FOR the SSS, would any of us old
timers that were involved in SWS and Kishites have thought of making a
group? There should be no such thing as "ANTI-SR" except for the christian
crusade types. There should be people who simply ignore us and go their
own way and have their own fun. Do you ever have fun? Keep in mind, SR
doesn't fuck with other organizations or wage 25 year long organizational
wars.
You never even got to know anyone in it, so busy were you having convos with
"one of the founders" instead of anyone else - and gaining the suspicions of
another person. Great going, Ryan, me boy. You could hae spoken to Dave.
Or Kari. But you didn't. You spoke ONLY to the "founders." Typical. As
as normally happens to people prone to do that, you booted yourself out
after someone admittedly fucked with you which the rest of us saw as way out
of bounds.
>
> Of course, I actively urge people to disagree with me on this issue,
> and post this message up to any Latin speaking group for verification.
> You can also check any Latin dictionary and see if you can find
> "Satanas". I could always be wrong, so take this with a big huge bag
> of salt, and call your local Latin professor up and see if I'm wrong.
It doesn't even matter if you are RIGHT or wrong about Latin. You are 100%
WRONG about the SSS and 1. the seriousness of what they actually did; 2, the
compete ABSENCE of anything in any thing they did of any notions of satan or
lucifer and 3. the FUN to it all. I have LOADS of correspondence from them
with NO letter heads or fancy shmancy typewriters, just plain old letters.
I have diagrams they made too - totally unrecognizable to anyone "into" the
satan thing. I have this stuff. It's hard copy.
What you have proven is that 3 people and many more, hear "Ave Satanas" and
spell it that way - and that they don't know, OR CARE ABOUT, proper Latin.
That is all you proved, Ryan.
Tani
People's Commissar
spelled it Satanas. BUT - it had nothing whatsoever do with satan or even
lucifer. They knew what the Baphomet was - and that's pretty well summed up
by the Lylyth group. They got it right! Samael and Lilith are not satan.
NO ONE ELSE used such a name, not even as a joke. The Wayne gang stopped
using it at least in 1978 for sure. I forget the new name they had. Silver
Traingle maybe, something like that - I don't remember. I DO have their
sigil tho, a copy of it that they used from then on - but - no one outside
it ever got to even see it!
Hmm, I think Anton used Satanis - "IS."
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd2c2ac$0$63847$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> "RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > >In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two
> > Frenchmen, M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had
> > it >and I read it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one
> > of these groups, at this time out of Queens NY>
> >
> > I must commend those Christians on their excellent grasp of classical
>
> Summary of the snipped part: The only one that used the word "Satanis"
> (because of lacking language skills) was LaVey, and consequently either
the
> SSS would either accidentally have made the same mistake, or more likely
> have taken over the word from LaVey. (Right?)
Satan-IS? SSS used Satan-AS. What did Crowley use? How about Wheatley,
more to the point and on target for Lin who was VERY familiar with that.
>
> To be fair, however, I don't recall having heard Tani state that the group
> forming the SSS existed prior to the 1970es - at least not under that
name.
> Her claim that various groups never used the 'S' word back then would
simply
> imply that IF the group existed before LaVey came around, it changed its
> name. So you haven't entirely rejected her claims. (But, to be equally
> fair to you, although lack of proof doesn't constitute proof of the
> opposite, enough lack of proof does diminish credibility.)
Well, want xeroxes of some of the diagrams from that old group? I have them.
That would cost.
>
> - wolf -
>
>
People's Commissar
did Wheatley use? How about Crowley?
You have neglected to read the whole thing in context. The SSS was not a
pure Dark Tradition group. Can't you read, Ryan? You are so detoured here
by the nitty gritty of irrelevant Latin grammar that you neglected to read?
WE, me and my relatives, brought that into the SWS - NOT the SSS. SSS had
a lot of Thelemites in it, Gnostics, Kaballa types and such. SWS was next
door to us. SSS was a trip to another state. Kishites was a 10 minute
ride, heh. SSS in the 1970's was university students - and they TOO stopped
using that name, just too much fuckin trouble.
The Dark Tradition is cultural and me and my cousins brought that in - and
this has provably NOTHING TO DO with LaVey. What's this shit now, first you
turn off the SR's and seem to be in love with the Temple of Set yet neer
read our material and imagine that only the "founders" (who you talked
decently to) are important, but no one else is. Now what is this, LaVey bs?
Sheesh.
Dark Tradition is as old as ever. We brought that INTO these groups that
already had other LHP stuff - Not one peson in ANY of these was LaVeyan.
Ryan, in 1989 I didn't even know that Aquino was no longer in the COS. That
is how LITTLE I knew, or gave a shit about, this public stuff.
The DT obviously, blatantly, has NOTHING TO DO with LaVey - or his brand of
"satanism." I actually think that Wheatley has alot more to do with
satanism than anything in LaVey. That man wrote fiction about groups - but
he was the British equivalent of the FBI before he did that. Of course,
even in the 1950's where you didn't dare say you were gay openly, such real
groups tended to call themselves something ELSE - at worst "Luciferian" or
Society of Lux or something like that.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
Kevin Filan
YWVvbg==.eaac276cabfd6a40...@1037249959.cotse.net, "Victor
LeNettoyeur™" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Oh my gawd this is funny.
>
> Let me explain something to you -wolf-: It's not Ryan's job to freakin'
> disprove your durga's nutty and baseless boasting. The burden of proof is
> on him (or nominally "her" in this case) that asserts the theorem to begin
> with.
The funny thing about this whole flap is that I *AGREE* with Tani that her
"Dark Doctrines" bear little if any resemblance to LaVeyan Satanism. My
main bone of contention is her claim that she is part of some "Generational
Dark Tradition" which is wholly unconnected to Laveyan Satanism AND WHICH
PREDATES ANTON LAVEY'S WORK. (I'm not saying out of hand that there was no
pre-LaVeyan Satanic organization...just that, if there was, Tani wasn't part
of it).
Based on the evidence, I believe Tani's "Dark Tradition" is not an
"inherited faith" or "inherited philosophy" -- I think it was created out of
whole cloth by Tani, based on her decades of reading Lovecraft, Lenin and
various other sources. This isn't a Bad Thing per se. If a philosophy is
valid it is valid from day one; if not, ten thousand years won't make it
correct. I just wish Tani would quit trying to blow smoke about "HER
PEOPLE" and suchlike, and stick to the merits (or lack thereof) of her own
work.
I suspect that deep down Tani is a very insecure woman, who requires
constant validation and affirmation from father figures. The way she
glommed onto Anton LaVey and became one of his most passionate defenders
suggests this; so do her slobbering attempts to make nice with Michael
Aquino after LaVey's organization rejected her. She doesn't think her work
can stand on its own, so she needs (a) support from other groups which she
perceives as more powerful and influential than her cadre and (b) an
imaginary "lineage" which, in her mind, lends her credibility.
Tani has obviously spent thirty-plus years creating this stuff, and yet
obscures it in verbiage about Anton LaVey's personal hygiene and FBI files,
Gilmore's Waffen-SS letter, etc. combined with easily-debunked claims about
her Mongolian ancestors and their lawn-chair vengeance rituals yadda yadda.
It's more sad than amusing, really.
Peace
Kevin Filan
People's Commissar
let's be very clear (in fact, it IS clear in the document they pretended to
read)....(yes, they are BLACK HOLES).
OK. The Wayne's Pennsylvania SSS definitely knew about LaVey - there is
proof of their run in WITH the Cos and Wayne was a COS member himself! It's
on our website! The others I met in PA (students) were NOT fans of the COS
at all and they were NOT all in agreement about using the SSS name. Vicky,
who was Wayne's wife in NE later, was adamantly against using a "satan" name
and Wayne no longer used it anymore anyway. They weren't into the "satan"
thing, despite the name. NOTHING they wrote even mentioned satan or
lucifer. There was Samael and that kind of thing. Like TOL has it - very
much the same! Well, it's based on another esoteric doctrine NOT from the
East. It has nothing to do with LaVey.
Now, get this clear: The LIN SSS predates LaVey by years and was intended
to have a tongue in cheak Wheatley atmosphere (it did!) (Wheatley "The
Satanist" 1960!) - that group or he? abruptly stopped using that name
entirely and no one heard about it, but he did keep in touch and continued
DOING what he had been doing - that's a fact - pretty well known. SWS and
other things like that were formed. Sounded like astronomy club or
something. First of all, when a group formed,it was always local and people
did NOT take the names of groups already in use. When Wayne used the SSS
name, no one else was using it. Lin's SSS predates everyone. See inside.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd342c4$1$146$edfa...@dread16.news.tele.dk...
> "RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > Therefore, since the B, (Dark Doctrine), groups had read LaVey, and
> > apparently changed their name to suit his misunderstanding of Latin,
> > then it must mean that the Dark Doctrines were formulated by exposure
> > to CoS material, and not vice versa. Even if solely in
> > reaction/rejection against CoS material, nonetheless it's still
> > formulated by exposure.
>
> If my memory serves me right, the SSS was a largely Lovecraftian-inspired
> group that also used the dark doctrines.
No, it was Lovecraftian inspired and Wheatley inspired and it used Kaballa,
Hermetic, Thelemite, ancient mythology as best could be known based on Greek
sources, Gnostic and other western or similar things. SWS had my cousins in
it. That was where Dark Tradition came in as early as 1963. I saw some of
it, but no way was I involved in it back then. I got involved in 1969 more,
but not a lot. There was no "satan" in that group at all, OR in any of the
others. I MET Wayne around 1976 or so, maybe before. Forgot. Phil met him
too. I visited him in PA when he had SSS, it must have been 1976. In 1978
when he was in New England he longer used SSS at all. He and the others cut
all that off. You can figure out why!
Lin had the first SSS and that was years before the Satanic Bible was
written. But Wayne? He obviously got it from Lin - but why he retained it
was probably due to his membership in the COS. I don't know when he joined
or quit, but I know for a fact he was IN the COS! I can't be sure on why he
used SSS but I also KNOW he did not use SSS earlier on because I saw
letterhead he had with another name on it - yet this was the same group (it
used a 6 pointed star, too; unfortunately I no longer have copies of ANY of
this - and it would be irrelevant anyway) - I never asked him or cared
enough about that but I can clearly say that NOTHING they were writing had
mention of the "satan" word - it was very oh VERY dark kind of LHP stuff,
whereas LaVey is "not dark and kinda nothing path" - as a matter of fact!
COS doesn't even claim to BE lhp so what's the problem? No one saw those
cards except people in it. Or close friends. It wasn't like they got
themselves a tax exempt status or any of that kind of thing. They DID get
themselves an apartment to work in, as a group.
I'm not sure whether Tani was
> actually part of that group or just loosely involved with them. In
contrast
> to what Victor believes, I agree with you that it's fair to say that
either
> this group was formed *after* they'd read _The Satanic Bible_, or they
> changed their name and at the very least considered themselves in strong
> enough agreement with LaVey to use his expression.
As can be proven by actual letters back and forth (I have the actual copies,
some hand written, here) they were in strong DISagreement with LaVey! I can
definitely say that much, I met them. They HATED LaVey. Wayne was the only
one that was in the COS for a very short while.
Changing their name
> really is an option, considering how often Satanic groups seem to break
> apart and then reappear with a number of members leaving and starting a
> spin-off organization with another name. But you cannot readily conclude
> that just because Tani cites this group as an example of a group that
> existed early on *and* used the 'S' word, then this group "invented" the
> dark doctrines.
LMAO, invented the Dark Tradition? LMAO. Please. Our comrades from India
would split their gut over that. I believe boojam snark told the netstalker
that he should take a course in eastern esoteric tradition 101. Sat and
Tan are Vedantic words! We DO GIVE a reference for it for the netstalkers.
They maybe in a written Vedantic thing that can now be found easily enough
(not so back then) but they are portions of an esoteric tradition that is
USUALLY oral.
As I said to Kevin Filan in another newsgroup message,
> "dark doctrines" may not be a universally recognized name,
NO ONE calls it dark doctrines. Vad called it that. We called it the
Esoteric Tradition - and that IS what it is! Theologically, one can take a
course in it, Kaiden Fox DID. He used my text on Tantra and aced the
course. Doctrine means teaching. Now we call it the Dark Tradition:
Dark - these have to do with "The Dark Lord (or Black God) of Transcendent
Awareness." And that IS theologically what it's called. Ole, these people
are confusing themselves due to emotional agendas they have - plus their
penchant for obsessive netstalking even stalking me to other newsgroups to
try to stir up shit. They are confusing themselves. Now, so the SR's stalk
them to other newsgroups? No. And so, do the Cossers start shit with
people they should best not be concerned about? HELL YES THEY DO.
but the general
> ideas are readily observable at many points in human history, and
certainly
> also a few millennia before the SSS came around. There's a physical limit
> determined by Tani's age to how far she can possibly go back in time
> mentioning groups that she knew about personally. The SSS would be at a
> time when she was about 20, I think.
Nope. Wayne's SSS was in the 1970's I ran into it. Lin's was early 1960's
but correspondence went back before that. I was involved in the SWS in
earnest. And that was indeed Dark Tradition. Why? Because about a third
of the people in it were me and my cousins; Phil wasn't even in that -
consider it was only about 60 people in all but that was a lot for one
place - it had to split up. Too many people to have in an apartment and the
landlord at Steve's was bitching about it. Our group was Kishites and that
was 100% pure Dark Tradition, Phil was in that. Meeting place? Our homes.
Going significantly further back and
> still claim personal involvement would be impossible. (Of course, with
the
> logic applied by certain "critics" on this newsgroup, they would demand
that
> she go further back in time with examples of personal involvement than her
> own birth date before they believed her, and only then complain about the
> fact that she'd have done the impossible.)
What proof is there? Well, notebooks full of the notes, primarily, but
that's not proof of anything and it would be incomprehensible. B saw that.
Every 20 seconds he had to ask me what a word meant on some of it. I have
the sigils they used. OH, I even have scripts some of them used but quickly
abandoned. Why? It was a pain in the ass.
Tani
>
> - wolf -
>
>
People's Commissar
doesn't prove a fucking thing except that Lin uses Satan-AS.
Um, we never claimed that LaVey based the COS on the DDocs. That's black
hole shit disturbing there. We claim that LaVey never HEARD OF the Esoteric
Traditions that are about the Dark Lord. I grew up with that, as did my
cousins. Ergo, Anton couldn't possibly have based a thing on anything LHP
or Dark Tradition because he never heard of it - and back then it was not so
easily accessable as it is today.
You are missing the POINT, Ryan. Lin used it, it was Wheatley-esque. ALL
of it, the entire feel of it, even in his FICTION it was Whealty-esque.
Entirely so. Yet NO ONE used the word "satan" other than the SSS card
thing - which HE stopped using. Wayne next used it and he WAS a COS member.
You know, you make a lousy scholar. Why? Because you base everything on a
nit-picked point and miss the rest of the entire thing. What I wrote about
all of that is perfectly clear. I suggest you learn to read more carefully
before you open your mouth and make noise proving you have not read a single
thing that would have told you this.
As to the cos and the DDocs? Gilmore or others CLAIMED (in the late
1990's?) in either some official shit or to Ole and others, that the DDocs
(sic) were the foundation of satanism. OK? Got it? Now, I never claimed
that. THEY DID. What the hell do you think the Danish gang is pissed off
about? Being lied to? yes? Well, I never said our stuff was the
foundation of ANYTHING in the COS. I said the opposite - I said it was NOT
related to "that shit" offline - and I'm sure pepole other than Jay Solomon
KNOW I said this and in writing - Richard Quick would know (Cos member that
I didn't wear kid gloves with about it). They never even knew about this -
but once pointed to where to find some of it and seeing our stuff which is
presented in a pure form, they'd be able to 1. find it and 2, UNDERSTAND it
thru the mytho jargon or academic abstractions.
GOT IT? Now, what I just said, I said before. It's quite clear. No need
to deconstruct things, Ryan. LOL. I'm going to say to you what the LaVeyans
always say to people that do exactly what you are doing: "YOU DONT GET IT,
GO AWAY, YOU ARE BEING A BLACK HOLE." [tm Cos on that one].
See inside.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > Again, I am sorry to remark that I just don't see how LaVey using the
word
> > "Satanas" means he based the CoS upon the "Dark Doctrines." I have not
seen any
> > evidence in those of his writings that I have read, and I have not yet
seen
> > convincing proof of same from any other source. Bad Latin just does not
equal
> > her claim being true.
>
> Lol, no. The exact opposite. Bad Latin invalidates the claim that it
> is pre-LaVey. The word "Satanas" was used by LaVey exclusively, i.e
He used Satan-IS. It's on his movie. Lin used Satan-AS - and that would
make perfect sense for a person who knew NO LATIN. Your "logic" is bs.
Wheatley, 1960. Even Lin's FICTION back then was Wheatley'esque
specifically where it concerned Count Zarnak - which is the name he called
HIMSELF on his SSS card. Do you realize how early he wrote those tales, in
the 1950's? And that they were only JUST found by his executor and
published? No, you don't have a clue. You make a lousy scholar since you
can't even read context.
.
> he literally invented that word. If someone else claims to pre-date
> LaVey, they would *not* use a word that LaVey invented. Any group
> using a word that LaVey invented is post-LaVey, not pre-LaVey.
> Meaning the SSS formed long after LaVey had put the pen to paper and
> begun writing. Meaning if the SSS is the source for Dark Tradition
The SSS is not the source for Dark Tradition articles, oh GOD you blithering
idiot. ME AND MY COUSINS are, since this is our own religion. We did not
bring that into the SSS either, if you could READ you'd grasp that. DUH.
We brought it into the SWS and later, Kishites was our own group.
> articles, they certainly came *after*, not *prior* to the Satanic
> Bible being in print. Hopefully that better explains it.
You better explain nothing because you can't read. Our TEMPLES pre-exist
LaVey too, you blithering fool. Dark Lord of Transcendent Awareness right
there in full sight if you can GET INSIDE there to look at all. That is the
source of OUR Dark Traditions. Blithering fool.
tim jordan
Funny how Tani pulls stuff out of her ass isn't it? You'll note these
alleged quotes read just like Tani's usual writing style sans the swearing
and constant use of the caps button -- odd no? She's just a 24-karat kook,
pure and simple.
Regards,
Harry Lime
http://www.harrylimetv.com/
"People's Commissar" <tanija...@www.com> wrote in message
news:ut74v4t...@corp.supernews.com...
People's Commissar
of Transcendent Awareness is purely cultural. Lovecraft I never heard of
till 1969. Sure, it was immediately recognizable that Nyralathotep was good
old Mahakala it's own self. Sure! But I don't get into that kind of story
because it's way too much like religion. I like the oceanic stuff instead
which is very strange, imo.
There is nothing invented about the DTrad at all. It's standard stuff - I
just explain it very simply and purely. NO ONE could possible know all that
about it from a book - and that's just a fact, Kevie. It's purely cultural.
Yes, we brought that INTO the SWS - and gave some of it to the cos only
recently. Some of it. Actually, we gave that to Vad and Ole. Phil and
Wayne gave the cos the roots stuff which is not Dark Tradition at all.
Stop confusing me with the wretch that is your mother. The SR is not about
me, and there is nothing insecure (LOL) about me. I don't particularly give
a fuck about personality shit - do NOT talk DTrad stuff in my free time
offline and loathe people who "only" manage to talk to "the founders" if
they worm their way into SR.
Simple as that. No one could possibly study a course in any of this, and
KNOW the things a person from it culturally knows. No one. It's not
possible. And yes, I sure do have photos of me and the grandpa together,
robes and all. Aw, you never knew that? You know, your little bitches come
on here accusing me of ranting. But here you are, the idiot dipping into the
stash, nettrolling me and ranting your fucking head off over things that
really shouldn't concern you at all. What's wrong. Did you get hollared at
by Peter lately?
Ole has a document from Gilmore claiming that DDocs are foundation of
Satanism. I do not have this document and was probably never shown it
because they knew I'd hollar to the heavens if I saw it. Then I got onine
and well well wel.
http://www.geocities.com/bartonletters/
Conned you bastards dry. But that's the past Kevie. Get over it! I'm sure
your HP's no longer care about it.
We did them a favor. We showed satanic organizations how to be satanic and
NOT use a thing from the cos or LaVey. You should be happy about that.
But you're not! How terribly strange!
Now now, Kevie. I heard it on 100% authority that you have been drinking
again. You need to stop doing such things because when you do that, you get
on usenet and become a netstalker way to concerned about little old me.
I'm exactly who I say I am. That seems to really bother you! I mean, it
really does bother you! Then you invent stories about my life out of whole
cloth! Amazing. Do we go to the trouble to invent stories about your HP's?
No. We do not. Why is that? You invent stories about Aquino fucking
Zeena and such things. Do they bother to invent stories about you? No.
Why is that?
Kevin, you are an unrealized total gay. Your pretense at bisexuality is
what is fucking you up, along with returning to the drink and lying about
it. Now get over that. Two can play the Kevin circle jerk.
"Kevin Filan" <mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com> wrote in message
news:B9F91336.4EE7%mrha...@excite.SPAMBGONE.com...
RyanS2
> "dark doctrines" may not be a universally recognized name, but the general
> ideas are readily observable at many points in human history, and certainly
> also a few millennia before the SSS came around.
This all depends. Let's suppose I am the founder of a new philosophy
called "existentialism". Most people know what "existentialism" is
now, but let's suppose no one had yet codified it. I then go back
through various mythology books, history books, philosophy books, and
various Chinese literature. I come upon some Confucian documents
which have feelings of existentialism within them. I synthesize
elements from various philosophical source, ancient mythology, and
Confucian literature.
Behold, I have existentialism! However, this does not mean any of my
sources *were* existentialism, it just means that I took what I wanted
and discarded the rest from them. I created a syncretic philosophy,
but that doesn't *make* it old, it only makes old ideas put within a
new framework. Being a martial artist, I'm sure you're aware of the
debate between Koryu, (Old School), and Gendai, (New School). Koryu
is any martial art which has a lineage that can be traced back to
before 1861. Gendai is any martial art which was formed after 1861.
The martial art Aikido synthesized elements from Jujutsu, (a koryu
martial art), but that does not make Aikido a koryu martial art.
Victor LeNettoyeur™
You're right. I was looking for a simple reference to back Tani's claim
that there was such an "esoteric tradition of the Altaic peoples" as she
claims to be a part of. I'd be happy to go off to the library and research
such things myself.
Since you've admitted that there is no such thing, I suppose it's fruitless
to keep asking.
> You don't mean enough to me to make me bother trying.
I'm of as much import as your own credibility. I suppose I should be
flattered.
>
> - wolf -
/victor
Victor LeNettoyeur™
> On 11/13/02 11:59 PM, in article
> YWVvbg==.eaac276cabfd6a40...@1037249959.cotse.net, "Victor
> LeNettoyeur™" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Oh my gawd this is funny.
> >
> > Let me explain something to you -wolf-: It's not Ryan's job to freakin'
> > disprove your durga's nutty and baseless boasting. The burden of proof
is
> > on him (or nominally "her" in this case) that asserts the theorem to
begin
> > with.
>
> The funny thing about this whole flap is that I *AGREE* with Tani that her
> "Dark Doctrines" bear little if any resemblance to LaVeyan Satanism. My
> main bone of contention is her claim that she is part of
> some "Generational
> Dark Tradition" which is wholly unconnected to Laveyan Satanism AND WHICH
> PREDATES ANTON LAVEY'S WORK. (I'm not saying out of hand that there was
> no
> pre-LaVeyan Satanic organization...just that, if there was, Tani wasn't
> part
> of it).
Agreed on that.
My own contention is not with Durga Rose's opinions pro or con Church of
Satan (or Anton LaVey) -- It's merely with the habit she has of taking any
potentially good conversation and miring it in a web of lies, ad-hominem
arguments and logical fallacies (with the help of her loyal spaniel and
suckup "Wolf" of course).
Whether Tani's own personal beliefs evolved from something she fabricated
or something that was "handed down from the oh-so-grand poobah extreme of
Turania high" it all amounts to a lot of occultnik tomfoolery in my book.
That said; the evolution of Satanic theory in general does seem like a
perfectly relevant and interesting topic to discuss. I was hoping to see
various opinions on Francis Dashwood's _London Hellfire Club_ (of which
famed American revolutionary Benjamin Franklin was a member, no less),
among other things.
Rather than have a productive discussion, Durga Rose and her loyal
asslicker -wolf- have once again chosen to rant and spew a lot of baseless
accusations. We are all STALKERS and BLACK-HOLES for having the nerve to
discuss such things openly; rather than just accepting the august word of
kooky Phyl without debate.
>
> Based on the evidence, I believe Tani's "Dark Tradition" is not an
> "inherited faith" or "inherited philosophy" -- I think it was created out
> of
> whole cloth by Tani, based on her decades of reading Lovecraft, Lenin and
> various other sources. This isn't a Bad Thing per se. If a philosophy is
> valid it is valid from day one; if not, ten thousand years won't make it
> correct. I just wish Tani would quit trying to blow smoke about "HER
> PEOPLE" and suchlike, and stick to the merits (or lack thereof) of her own
> work.
No disagreement there.
>
> I suspect that deep down Tani is a very insecure woman, who requires
> constant validation and affirmation from father figures. The way she
> glommed onto Anton LaVey and became one of his most passionate defenders
> suggests this; so do her slobbering attempts to make nice with Michael
> Aquino after LaVey's organization rejected her. She doesn't think her
> work
> can stand on its own, so she needs (a) support from other groups which she
> perceives as more powerful and influential than her cadre and (b) an
> imaginary "lineage" which, in her mind, lends her credibility.
>
That's something I've found interesting when it was discussed in the past.
I wonder if Harry Lime/Tim Jordan has some thoughts concerning this
analysis.
I'm also interested in an analysis of -wolf- and the handful of other
reasonably sane individuals who spend so much of their lives defending
Durga Rose when she is caught in various lies and embarassments. Do you
have any thoughts re the motivations of these people?
> Tani has obviously spent thirty-plus years creating this stuff, and yet
> obscures it in verbiage about Anton LaVey's personal hygiene and FBI
> files,
> Gilmore's Waffen-SS letter, etc. combined with easily-debunked claims
> about
> her Mongolian ancestors and their lawn-chair vengeance rituals yadda
> yadda.
> It's more sad than amusing, really.
She's clearly quite sick. For years I never allowed myself to believe that
her various and nondescript neuroses were quite as severe as she makes out.
I thought that her nutty behavior here was her way of trolling the forum.
It was only after I read the thread in which she took the name "Brother
Shudenko" on a Christian newsgroup that I realized how seriously fucked up
this bitch really is.
I find myself pitying her as well.
>
> Peace
> Kevin Filan
/victor
RyanS2
> more to the point and on target for Lin who was VERY familiar with that.
No, LaVey used "Satanas". It's on every letter he sent Michael Aquino
in his "Church of Satan" e-book, and it's on every other page of the
Satanic Bible and other works. "Ave Satanas, Rege Satanas, Hail
Satan!" *No one* else used that phrase, because it is a
*non-existent* phrase.
Lisa
something that was "handed down from the oh-so-grand poobah extreme of Turania
high" it all amounts to a lot of occultnik tomfoolery in my book.>>
Indeed one could remark that "occultnik tomfoolery" was something LaVey knew
quite a bit about! What I resent are her continual implications that somehow
she uncovered these dark, secret "doctrines," LaVey read them and said "Cool!
Can I borrow these?" and shazaam! the CoS was born.
I have no problem with the idea that LaVey created his philosophy out of whole
cloth. So what if he did? (Im not saying he did in fact do this, just making a
point.) If certain people don't like the idea of someone coming up with their
own idea, they can get back to their own e-group, contemplate their own navels
and discuss The Secret Origins of the Dark Doctrines, Copyright! any time they
so please. No one's holding any of them here.
They hate LaVey, but they allege to have 'created' him. This is a conundrum I
shall leave for wiser minds than mine to unravel.
<<We are all STALKERS and BLACK-HOLES for having the nerve to discuss such
things openly; rather than just accepting the august word of kooky Phyl without
debate.>>
Well, of course! I'll never forget the time someone sent me an email (I think
it was "Brendan") saying in essence: "When you ask (x) question, you are
*questioning* Phyllistani. Do you realize just what you have done? How DARE you
question her?! YOU! questioned HER!"
I tell you, I laughed for days :-)
<<I just wish Tani would quit trying to blow smoke about "HER PEOPLE" and
suchlike, and stick to the merits (or lack thereof) of her own work.>>
<<No disagreement there.>>
If she would in fact do this, she would appear a great deal more valid than she
does now. We're all STALKERS and BLACK HOLES and drunks (that from the person
who buys Kahlua in bulk from the local ABC store.... rich in irony, this talk
of "drunks" from the likes of her) but you know.... she never gets tired of us.
I'll take that as a compliment. When she could be engaged in highminded
scientific discussions on her precious e-group, is she there? No. She's here,
yapping about the CoS once again, making stupid brags, boasting about the
unprovable.
<<I'm also interested in an analysis of -wolf- and the handful of other
reasonably sane individuals who spend so much of their lives defending Durga
Rose when she is caught in various lies and embarassments. Do you have any
thoughts re the motivations of these people?>>
I honestly think they're taking that "Reds" thing to its logical conclusion.
After all, they're "Communists," right? What more logical than that they model
themselves after a Totalitarian regime? You have the figurehead, and the
underlings.... and what happens to those underlings if they talk out of line?
If they fail to uphold the Party line? It's off to the Gulag, baby. Or a
discrete firing-squad at dawn....
Since she cannot literally consign them to any gulag, I am uncertain how she
keeps them so closely in line. I honestly wonder if it's some secret sexual
talent she has. No other motivator has appeared; what is one to think? It can't
possibly be *money*.....or it could be that all of her followers are easily
kept in line because there's only one of them: herself.
<< I thought that her nutty behavior here was her way of trolling the forum.
It was only after I read the thread in which she took the name "Brother
Shudenko" on a Christian newsgroup that I realized how seriously fucked u this
bitch really is.>>
There were a few things that started her downward slide with me - I won't bore
you with them. But you know what one of the main ones was?
The infamous "zonk" email posted by SirChaos. At that time was the rumbling of
the far-off avalanche heard; growing in strength, at last my reservations were
buried underneath a 200-ton weight of proof as to her craziness.
L.
Sir Chaos
> Well, good for you. Now kindly BE a LaVeyan Satanist and STOP concerning y
> ourself with th ings that need not concern you. That IS one of YOUR tenets,
> right?
Wrong.
Nice try, though. Next time, read the tenets you would quote.
-Sir Chaos
--
"My misbehaviours were soley due to the acts of the CoS cult, (Kevin),
and a few others too numerous to name!"
- Nancy Warlick
Sir Chaos
> No, the word Satan-IS was used by LaVey exclusively. "IS." Not "AS." that
> doesn't prove a fucking thing except that Lin uses Satan-AS.
Wrong.
Nice try though. Next time, check the book you would be
referencing.
-Sir Chaos
--
"You have murder in your heart. You are thus, a murderer. You are a
sychophant helping to do nothing but destroy this newsgroup with your
incessant bitching about people's views. You are a murderer of free
speech. You are a murderer of ideas. You love that because you are
scum."
-- Usenet Kook Jeff Gerber explaining how disagreeing
with Tani Jantsang equates to murder.
Lisa
Oh my: Ryan has angered the Deep Ones. He can be expecting a severed fish-head
at the foot of his bed any minute now.
<<Why would this netstalking lunatic want proof of anything? Why does this
concern her in her personal life so much? >>
::sorrowful tone:: Is it just that you cannot answer the questions, hon? I
know.... proving proof of brags is -such- a bitch. I'm really sorry.
(not!)
<<That's not a question. I know why. She tried to be friendly and I told her to
fuck off.>>
Never make a brag when the proof lies handy, sweetie:
Subject: Re: WHY? Here's why.
From: gulll...@aol.com (GUlLLOTlNA)
Date: 4/20/01 3:09 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: <20010420160923...@ng-cj1.aol.com>
You at no time told me to "fuck off" prior to the date on this post: the honor
of beginning hostilites betwixt yourself and I was mine alone. Now please, post
the message where you told me to "fuck off." You had nothing but polite words
for me. NOTHING but.
Until 4-20-2001.
I wonder if that makes you a "BLACK HOLE," since you were making nice to
someone you allegedly loathed? This is such a familar theme with you, Phyllis
hon.
<< End of story. If she's not netstalking me, she's used to netstalk the COS's
people. Whatever. That's her "life." I don't see her posts. No time for that
filth anymore.>>
::holding arms up in a minatory gesture, fingers crooked and stalking on
tiptoe::
BOO! I'm a "netstalker!" LMAO. Talk of "filth" comes well from the person using
more foul language and vile innuendo and outright lies than anyone else on this
NG.
<<We aren't about LaVey. GET THAT THRU YOUR HEAD. >>
Then quit claiming you are; how stupid *are* you?
Ryan: <<It shows that attacks on Anton LaVey will go on any level, without
regard for the truth.>>
<<We don't care about LaVey either.>>
See above.
(I am really beginning to think this bitch is not only crazy but rock-bottom,
bag-of-hammers stupid as well. No one can possibly be this intentionally
self-unaware. No one. Unless they had an IQ of 70.)
<<No, you are wrong. We are Dark Tradition and that IS old. This IS what we
go for. >>
Yeah, your "DARK TRADITIONS" are old all right. 56 years old? 57 by now?
Ancient, man. Wow.
<<You never even got to know anyone in it, so busy were you having convos with
"one of the founders" instead of anyone else - and gaining the suspicions of
another person. Great going, Ryan, me boy. >>
Ah, Ryan, you were just a klippoth all along! We KNEW and always KNEW, you see.
Jaaaaysus Christ! If you befriend anyone in the "Satanic Reds," you're "up
SOMEONE'S ass" and "SUCKING UP" or perhaps "CLINGING." However, NOT being
friendly and glad-handing and shooting the shit with all and sundry "RAISES
SUSPICIONS." You -cannot- win with these people! ::laughs out loud::
Ryan: << You can also check any Latin dictionary and see if you can find
"Satanas". I could always be wrong, so take this with a big huge bag of salt,
and call your local Latin professor up and see if I'm wrong.>>
Phyl: <<It doesn't even matter if you are RIGHT or wrong about Latin. >>
That's right, kiddies. What matters is not correctness or incorrectness, it's
all about "the FUN to it all."
<<What you have proven is that 3 people and many more, hear "Ave Satanas" and
spell it that way - and that they don't know, OR CARE ABOUT, proper Latin.
That is all you proved, Ryan.>>
You have proved quite a bit here today yourself, Phyllis. None of it what you
expected. Right about now you're making egan look positively balanced.
L.
*********
Nihil me terret, old bitch.
People's Commissar
sources we use are accurate and correct. What we have to say is
theologically recognized right away as something very different from the run
of the mill "satanic" bilge. You'd have to have read it to realize that.
What we present is exactly that - the Esoteric Tradition. Period. It is
also blatantly obvious that we derive our use of "satan" from two Vedantic
words since they fit in with what we are saying.
Try as you might - our org is solid. And it's on solid ground. Other
satanic groups might not like it, but so what? They bother us. We don't
bother them.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.0211...@posting.google.com...
People's Commissar
Lin had the same idea. So did J. Solomon and he's another one older than
your Anton. "Satanas Vobiscum" he always said.
Anyone that doesn't care about Latin would use that phrase - and they do use
it. People who never saw Aquino's book used it. That means nothing,
absolutely nothing. Btw, no one ever signed "Ava Satanas" in that group
that I ever saw. They said things like "Yours by the Dykand Star." What's
that? I dunno. The general run of the idea goes like this:
Ave Maria. Ave Satana? Nah, that sounds female. Make it Satanas since
male names seem to have an "s" on them. That's about the run of the mill
thinking on this.
You still don't get it. Lin's SSS had nothing whatsoever to do with COS -
and his Zarnak nick is from the 1950's when he wrote tales about it. Pure
Wheatley. Zarnak was even like Wheatley was in real life, semi sleuth and
occult investigator, all that. Nothing Anton-ian about it. You just want
to smear that Anton org on things that were not only not connected, but
blatantly hostile.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
RyanS2
>
> Funny how Tani pulls stuff out of her ass isn't it?
Well Harry, we must resign ourselves to fate. We DO NOT KNOW, and
will NEVER KNOW, and CANNOT know, and thus will NOT SEE what is CLEAR,
we are the TONE-DEAF trying to HEAR the MUSIC, the MUSIC Harry, can
YOU hear it?
>You'll note these
> alleged quotes read just like Tani's usual writing style sans the swearing
> and constant use of the caps button -- odd no? She's just a 24-karat kook,
> pure and simple.
I wasn't sure who was saying what on that letter/thread. Although
apparently I've reached ad hominem lows, being able to read Latin
means I don't know how to have fun. HAVING FUN Harry, I DO NOT KNOW,
and will NEVER KNOW, and CANNOT know, thus will not SEE what IS FUN, a
GROUP NOT about LAVEY, NO, that's NOT FUN, I will HAVE FUN by NOT
TALKING about LAVEY. (YET I will INVOKE LaVey like a TALISMAN, a
TALISMAN, Harry, LAVEY, LAVEY, LAVEY, LAVEY). I feel the power
beating within my breast as I invoke his infernal name. I should be
hitting Super-Saiyan Aryanjutsu mode any second now.
How's your show going, as long as we are chatting? Was it Victor or
Lupo who wanted to be on there? I was wondering if you had the chance
to have them on as a guest. If you have, let me know how it went and
everything else. Just remember to keep your gloves up Harry, there
isn't a punch coming at you now, but it's COMING SOON! Lol, lol, lol,
lol.
People's Commissar
Kaballistic, Vedantic, Tantrik, Vajrayana, Taoist and Pythagorean in the
Lodge sense (Roots 1 and 2 clearly show this).
No one in these types of organizations USUALLY uses the "satan" thing - and
many would indeed come up with "Ave Satanas" as a male name, similar to Ava
Maria since "Latin speaking" is just not their thing.
We call our org Sat-Tanic - hence a pun on two real words that purely define
the Dark Tradition. Why is this a problem? We have nothing to do with the
cos, and neither did Lin at any time. Despite the SSS name, they were NOT
about "satan" or even "lucifer" at all. But there was a lot of Dark
Traditional stuff in there, LHP knowledge and not from your local variety
pop culture.
Period. If you wish to chat with me, then try doing it like a human being.
You never could quite manage that. Does it really bother you LaVeyans so
much that some people in our org are thoroughly familiar with these things
but actually never heard of the cos? It shouldn't. Cossers should be happy
that we do NOT claim association with them, or roots from them - and that's
just the truth.
Barton herself owns up that I never used that "Mag" joke as any kind of
identity. You all got what you wanted, her letters. Pathetic, if you ask
me, but you'll find a sure way to make them into the epitome of nobility.
Whatever rocks YOUR boat. Now get out of my garden, you are trespassing.
Tani
Once more - this time read in context:
II. The Roots of Satanic Reds Organization.
Who are we? Where did we come from?
Tani Jantsang and Philip Marsh
There were Hermeto-Kaballistic, Luciferian, Gnostic, self-admitted Satanists
(by that name), Theosophists - and people interested in what was then a
barely known author of strange fiction, H. P. Lovecraft. This goes back to
before 1963 because at that time, my cousin, an adult, was well involved in
this stuff and I ran into it at that time. These people did what all such
people interested in similar things do: they formed groups, or "esoteric
cults" of their own, meeting in homes, coffee houses, or wherever else. Many
of them gave their group a nice, occult name, but this time, it was a name
related to the Cthulhu Mythos and not to anything that anyone else would
recognize. I mean, everyone in the Gnostic or Satanic realm knew what the
OTO was. Every Witch and Warlock knew what Aradia was. Most Jews knew what
Kaballa was. Every Freemason knew what the GLO was, or what AASR or OES
were. But - the Starry Wisdom Sect? What was that; an astronomy club? Or
the Esoteric Order of Dagon; what was that, some Phillistine pagan thing?
This, the Cthulhu Mythos, is the primary thing that created a sincere
interaction in these people from these disparate traditions that would
normally not have any contact with each other. Since all of the Cthulhu
Mythos was invented by Lovecraft and his own "inner circle," it would be
impossible for anyone else, even from the same traditions, to know what was
being discussed. They collected information that showed mythological
correspondences across cultures, knowing that there was one solid Dark
Tradition that ran through these cultures and through the ancient world - a
Tradition that was once esoteric and hidden from the Pagans of the Ancient
World and later hidden from Judeo-Christian-Islam, more or less - sometimes
it is infused and somewhat incorporated! This is what they all did in these
groups with one very strange and unique addition: they collected stories and
letters that were written by Lovecraft and anyone else in a related but
invented mythology called the Cthulhu Mythos. As said before, Lovecraft had
his own inner circle and they had ways, within the stories they wrote, of
"acknowledgeing" each other.
Tracking down these Cthulhu Mythos stories, letters and notes was not easy
back then; 99% of it was out of print and had only been in print in news
stand pulp magazines! Most people never heard of it. This stuff was nothing
like vampire or werewolf or witchcraft lore. It was nothing like demonlogy
or angeology either. It was WEIRD STUFF, but oh, not all that weird to some
when they read it! But the material itself, the stories, etc., was very
obscure stuff at the time and the stories were hard to understand for most
due to the strange way they were written. It was HEAVY - and it tended to
grab hold of people that we all recognized to be innately of the Left Handed
Paths innately, even people being from traditionally esoteric but Right Hand
Path traditions who were innately of the Left Hand were grabbed by this
stuff. It was seriously like a Call and you either felt it, it GRABBED you,
or you just didn't get it. Perhaps this is what The Call of Cthulhu, really
is! Or maybe better yet, the Call of NYARLATHOTEP who is said to be the
Soul and Messenger, the Crawling Chaos, dwelling in Abyssal Darkness! As
Professor Robert M. Price (he has two Ph.D's in Theology and taught the
Eastern Esoteric Tradition in university theology courses) wrote in Crypt of
Cthulhu #2 - if the Eastern Esoteric Tradition were to find a Cthulhu Mythos
name for their Dark Lord of Transcendent Awareness, it would be
Nyarlathotep. He is 100% right. He knew this from the outside. But we all
knew this from the inside!
Back then, not everyone knew how to type, not everyone owned a typewriter,
and there were no xerox machines or at least the ones that were around later
on were not readily available to private people who had heaps of material to
copy. Many of them had hand written notes on many things though, as far as I
know, none ever presented the Dark Tradition in as pure and uncluttered a
form as we (Tani Jantsang, Philip Marsh, et.al.) have done for over three
decades - and for public sale for more than one decade. Me and my relatives
and friends brought a very pure, Turanian or Central Asian Dark Tradition
(Esoteric Eastern Tradition and related tradition: see above on the Unity)
into the groups we linked up with.
Understand, this was a lot of fun; it wasn't just serious study. I still
have much of this material, and though it was since then typed from
handwritten copies, it's not in any kind of etext form or on a computer
disc.
In 1965 I saw a manuscript called Sudanese Sirius System by two Frenchmen,
M. Graiule and G. Dieterlen, anthropologists. My cousin had it and I read
it. He got it from the Societas Selectus Satanas, one of these groups, at
this time out of 100-15 195th Street, Hollis Queens, NY and headed by one
"Count Zarnak" or "Mr. N." That has turned out to be Lin Carter! Or, at
least I assume that is Lin Carter since Carter wrote tons of stories
recently on Zarnak! The article by the two Frenchmen was translated in
handwriting. I didn't know what to make of it and it sounded extremely
bizarre and unrelated to anything Dark or Light that I recognized. It was
about the star Sirius and fishmen. I knew what the Prachetasas were; but
that was from India and the entire story was very different, seemingly
unrelated; plus this manuscript didn't mention the Prachetasas. I knew what
Sirius was and that it was called Sothis in the ancient world (that's the
same word Jesus used to mean salvation). I knew about the Oannes and a lot
of "fishman" lore from the ancient civilizations. But I never heard of this
Sudanese stuff. I also was at a great disadvantage when scanning over some
of the more familiar material; I'd run across names I didn't recognize at
all and couldn't find in any standard source book. No one I knew ever heard
of these names. Of course, I had no idea what the Cthulhu Mythos was at this
time and had no idea I was trying to find names that someone invented. One
of the names I thought was just a misspelling of Yat-Zebaoth and the
definition fit. (Yog-Sothoth!) I recognized what Nyarlathotep was, but not
where that name could have come from. Oddly enough, Lovecraft had the
nightmare of nightmares about this Nyarlathotep - and after that happened to
him, he began writing tales in this strange Cthulhu Mythos! Prior to that,
he wrote very differently. (This is detailed in A Look Behind the Cthulhu
Mythos by Lin Carter (heh), Ballantine books, pages 17-19).
In 1970 I became very familiar with the basic Cthulhu Mythos and linked up
to an offshoot group called Starry Wisdom Sect - the name was taken from one
of the stories (Haunter of the Dark) which was about Nyarlathotep. I was
loosely connected with them but contributed a lot of information about the
Dark Lord of Transcendant Awareness - and I made notes and passed them on
and read everything that passed my way. I noticed a clear distinction
between some Lovecraft stories and others. Some were very mundane, even
boring - but the Cthulhu Mythos ones were outre in the extreme and they had
a different feel to them. LIKE a Call! They GRABBED you - or they did not.
It was that black and white.
In 1974 Phil Marsh was brought into the fold and I was, by then, fully
familiar with the Cthulhu Mythos and, due to the former group, had just
about all the out of print stories ever written in the old days by the
original writers. By that time, we called our own offshoot group Kishites,
from the Babylonian city of Kish. The Sign of Kish is our 2 pointed up
Pentacle - and it was this long before the Pythagoreans ever used it. Kish
is an ANCIENT city. We had our own lingo-jargon for everything. When Lin
Carter stuck the "Kishites" into a story, that was an acknowledgement of our
group. That's what people would do, write each other's invented entities or
groups into stories, include the strange races or cities (real or invented)
into stories or even write about each other using a disguised name, as in
Haunter of the Dark, the character Robert Blake is Robert Bloch! And Robert
Bloch then wrote a sequel to that tale called The Shadow From the Steeple!
The Esoteric Order of Dagon was another group and that's either still around
now, or a it's new group formed with that name. It may have been connected
to the infamous (to hell with copyrights) Esoteric Order of Dagon Amateur
Press Association. Richard Tierney seems to have worked solo in collecting
all the Simon Magus information and he wrote his superb Simon of Gitta
tales, incorporating the Cthulhu Mythos into a heavily Gnostic and ancient
world setting. He outright established that Yog Sothoth is the Hebrew God!
This compilation of mythos/traditions work, with the intent to eventually
put this either into story form, or write "the Secret Books" Lovecraft wrote
about (which never existed!) was ongoing at least back in 1963; that's as
far back as I saw dated letters and/or little membership cards proudly shown
by the group members with a smile. These were from the Societas Selectus
Satanas (and by the way, they used the Baphomet in 1963), out of Queens, NY
back then. The first group I was associated with in 1969, through an older
friend, was called the Starry Wisdom Sect. They used a symbol that looked
like a diamond shape with rays coming out of it and a wavey crossed Vajra in
the center. As I said, these were casual friends, people from lodge
backgrounds and backgrounds similar to mine that used to hang out and get
into this. And they all did their own version of "seek out and recognize"
others which got pulled into the fold, or just see if their friends were
interested!
Lin Carter wanted to "write the Secret Books" that Lovecraft and the others
invented. He got very sick and never did it. Much information was
collected for Lin by the original SSS group. I knew that Lin personally knew
at least two of the members of the Penn State U group because Lin spoke
about these people on the phone about them. There is one sample of this
"writing the Secret Books" here on our website entitled The Aklo Tablets.
This material was collected in 1963. I had copies of it. No one ever wrote
it out. I finally did and put it on our website. It is also a published
story with a story plot in Cthulhu Cultus.
In 1974, as I said, we formed our own little group of about 20 people, the
Kishites. That name was not yet in any Cthulhu Mythos stories, but we used
it anyway. Keep in mind, that's a lot of people to have over your house at
one time. So groups soon split off and took up new names: The Dholes, the
Shantaks, the Voormi, etc., names from the Cthulhu Mythos that weren't
already being used by another group, or new names shortly to be put into new
stories. The Societas Selectus Satanas at this time, early 1970's, was out
of 430 Shaw Avenue, McKeesport, PA and consisted of mostly college students
from Penn State U. Xerox machines and available electric typewriters made
all of this a lot easier.
While the Societas Selectus Satanas incorporated all the types of people
mentioned above; the Starry Wisdom Sect had more people in it that were
interested in the sciences, not just mythological correlations, and people
who knew a lot about specific cultures of the past and had a strong focus on
the Dark Traditions, but not exclusively. The Kishites were purely a Dark
Tradition faction of the SWS which also incorporated some sciences into it -
and most of the people in it were my own cousins and close friends; but it
was all interwoven with the Cthulhu Mythos, too.
Satanic Reds is the Kishites with exclusive emphasis on the Pure Dark
Tradition, with no inclusion of any kind of fiction, and with the inclusion
of politics! Another difference is that Satanic Reds is purely open; our
information is either free on a website or sold to anyone who wishes to know
it.
These are Our Roots. We didn't just appear in 1989 handing Dark Tradition
material to other Satanic organizations. We didn't just appear in 1997 with
Satanic Reds. We have been around a LONG TIME! Prior to that the Root goes
back to standard LHP doctrines of the Boundless Darkness - and there is a
unity in all these traditions. These traditions are the oldest traditions
in the world - as a matter of fact!
Do we have any roots in LaVeyan Satanism? NO! NONE!
Do we have any roots in the Temple of Set? No, none. Though there are some
Setians that see a strong similarity between their Set concept - and The
Sat. We both have the Doctrine of Becoming in our organizations. (Set is
considered an incarnation of Nyarlathotep by some of the Mythos crowd:
Encyclopedia Cthulhiana, Second Edition, page 224, by Daniel Harms).
Do we have any roots in Chaos Magic? No, None. They sort of have their
roots in us! SURPRISE!
Do we have any roots in Thelema? No, though there are definite similarities
that Themelites in the Satanic Reds Organization recognize and have written
about.
Do we have any roots in Theosophy? No. though there are a few Theosophists
in our organization that think we present the Real Deal in a very Pure form
with nothing hidden away.
Do we have any roots in the Witchcraft or Wicca movement? No, though there
are Wiccans in our organization that resonate to the "feel" of it and we
link to The Temple of Lylyth Organization.
And just what is it that we are about:
I. Unity in the Adamantine Esoteric Tradition of the Boundless Darkness,
what we call the Dark Tradition
Tani Jantsang
Unity in the Adamantine Esoteric Tradition of the Boundless Darkness, what
we call the Dark Tradition
This, what we present in our organization and sell essays on, is an
Adamantine Doctrine said universally to have been The Doctrine of the prior
world age, the 4th world age, the Satya Yuga. Pesh Hun transmitted it to
the people in the Kali Yuga. Blavatsky was told some of this, for sure.
She distorted what she was told, horribly and probably deliberately.
What absolutely legitimizes the entire Esoteric Tradition and all the
related cultures (plural) that had it and still have it, as a whole, is
their EMANATION doctrine about the Boundless Darkness, No Name, Aditi, Ain
Soph, Apeiron,etc. and the Flame, Viraj, Vajra, etc. that is in that All
Pervading Darkness - and the resulting doctrine of Being and Becoming. This
is not exclusively in the Eastern lands since the "western civilization"
Hellenic pre-Socratic traditions also have these doctrines of the Apeiron
(the One) and the emamation, and the Five Daimones - but it is universally
agreed upon by every scholar to be very Eastern in tone and intent - and
that is where Pythagoreanism comes from. It is far more ancient than
Babylon, also. It existed in India as the standard Shivaite Doctrine at
least as far back as 7,000 BC.
But THIS is the unifying concept.
1. Unknown - Boundless Darkness. - That which is Arupa.
2. Non-Being and Being. The intermediate being-state is BECOMING. It does
this out of Necessity.
3. Emanation of a Light, Flame, Vajra, Viraj, etc. as a 7-fold Formed and
Ordered substance that BECAME all material (matter/energy) things.
4. Infusion of the Darkness as a 5-fold formless chaotic "force" of some
kind, into the 7 which, in turn, drives it on to ever greater change and
diversity, relentlessly driving it on to change, to BECOME.
It is very much unlike a creation doctrine; it is very much unlike paganism
with many gods and goddess and half-godling "children of" the
gods/goddesses. It is not dualistic at all. It is NOT for everyone! One is
either Of It, or they are not. Repeat, it is not dualistic - so if you find
some later dualism mixed into the pure doctrine, it is a later addition.
In addition, there are elaborations that are identical: how that darkness is
always categorized in 5 distinct ways as it acts on "the nature" around us
and how the Flame is within us as kundalini, Vajra, etc. How the Flame comes
into living beings from the All Pervading Darkness, goes through living
things as a Flame or kind of "Light" and then returns to that One Darkness.
How the All Pervading Darkness itself never increases or decreases all the
time this goes on. There are also very similar doctrines about what lacks
this Flame within, in all these traditions. There is no judgement on such
people. It is just that the Tradition is not told to them - hence it is
esoteric. (Times have changed). I could say it this way: Aditi, Vach, Viraj
are the same things, recognizable to anyone that knows this, as Kether,
Binah, Hochmah. Same things.
This is one solid tradition amongst MANY whole cultures, parts of cultures
and peoples. It is universally said to have been The Adamantine Doctrine by
which all society was governened in a "Golden Age" during the Satya Yuga
which is a prior world age. It is distinct from the trinity traditions,
distinct from the dualistic traditions which oppose light and dark. It is
distinct from paganism. It is distinct from the solar cults. It is NOT a
salvation doctrine nor is there any kind of notion of a "personal Being" in
the One Darkness.
It has nothing to do with rebelliousness or the mundane world of the herd
and hypocrisy. It has nothing to do with that pro or con - all that is
irrelevant. If you want rules, make them up. If you follow rules, then
someone else made them up. That's how societies work. How societies work has
nothing to do with the Doctrine. The need "in itself" for rules is contrary
to the Dharmas. But rules are needed in SOCIETIES and we all live in
societies, behaviors in these societies are set as a standard of
"acceptability" by the people IN those societies; there is nothing divine
about such rules or societal laws or morals or ethics; this has NOTHING to
do with The Doctrine. There is a qualified difference. A Ngagspa (Dark
Doctrine Adept) can behave one way in some remote area of Etsen Gol. That
is, you would see the outer behavior of this person, you'd see him doing
things. Let him come to the USA and live in the city. The Ngaspa ADAPTS
easily enough. You'd see him doing other behaviors outwardly. Inwardly, he
is the same Ngagspa. Outer behavior has nothing to do with the Inner Being.
Following speeding laws on interstates, which the Ngagspa would do if he
came here, has nothing to do with The Doctrine.
This is perfectly clear in the Esoteric Tradition whether you get it from
the Dark Tradition section on our website or from a university or from an
Adapt or whether one might tell you some of this, as someone told Blavatsky
(and she garbled it all up and tried to change it....) It does NOT MATTER if
confused persons, overly cerebral people or anyone else doesn't get it.
Glaring and screaming out is the EMANATION doctrine and the BOUNDLESS
DARKNESS concept - the Flame that is in that Darkness - from there comes
Being and Becoming. Those things are OUTSIDE of Judeo-Christianity-Islam for
the most part. These are the three MAIN things that bind these traditions
into one Esoteric Tradition: Boundless Darkness, Flame in Darkness ,
Being/Becoming. These THREE things unify it into one Esoteric Tradition, in
addition to the the actual teachings of the 7 and the 5 and The One, usually
with focus on the FIVE and The One Darkness. They are LHP traditions though
they also encompass RHP since the two are never opposed: they compliment
each other when they are properly understood and practiced.
At least we have unified what belongs together as a core doctrine. I don't
expect a very cerebral person stuck in the Judeo-Christian paradigm to hear
a single "note" of what I said. And I'm not into explaining harmony to tone
deaf people. It's a waste of time. The LHP does not work that way. You
either hear the tune, or you don't. It is not like conversion doctrines. It
is not like what has come to be thought of as RHP. Though that in itself is
very confused and misnamed.
If you hear it, it definitely CALLS to you, you can't even resist it. If you
don't hear it, I suggest you don't concern yourself with it and continue to
PURSUE YOUR OWN things and be happy with what you have. To not do that is to
participate further in non-being.
Obviously, in history, pieces of this One Doctrine have been absconded with,
merged with things it was never a part of, such as the Logos cults - and
then the Sun Cults of old. SAT and Sanatana: these concepts got confused
with Saturn the planet - and then confused with the Sun. Some of the
Doctrine got merged into the Dark Goddess concept - dualized - as what I'd
imagine to be a reaction to the Solar Patriarchal peoples ruling those
areas. In the Kali Yuga, this is bound to happen to anything from the Satya
Yuga. No matter. None of that is relevant. We present tradition of the
Boundless Darkness in a very unadorned and pure form. That is relevant.
Recently, supermassive black holes have been found - and now the conception
of the all-destructive black hole has changed into one where these black
holes have a lot to do with CREATION of galaxies, not just destruction. How
would a Dark Adept see these things, since saying that such existed has been
part of the doctrine anyway? As the fingers of the Boundless Darkness, the
hand of the Sat Itself doing what it always does: folding/unfolding,
push/pull. We would say that the "many" black holes one sees at the center
of galaxies are really One Thing - made to look like many things in many
places and times by the Illusion of Space/time. That is what we'd say.
"Sir Chaos" <sirc...@wolfenet.com> wrote in message
news:3dc2bc99.02111...@posting.google.com...
Lupo LeBoucher
- wolf - <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote:
>"Lupo LeBoucher" <i...@io.com> wrote in message
>news:vYWdnWmrOdm...@news.io.com...
>> You mean, the type of people who make $43k a year in silicon valley in the
>> late 90s?
>
>Mid-90s when this was the average. Can't you read?
It has nothing to do with my reading comprehension, Poodles: I lived here during
that time frame as well, and I know it was only "the average" for toilet
attendants. The average for an engineer was about twice that.
Besides, you said yourself you were getting raped working here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1974841384d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3b9ee784%240%24256%24edfadb0f%40dspool01.news.tele.dk
"Yes, I'd have kept the job and a LOW SALARY. I didn't leave because of my
job as apparently the Gilmores told Jacqueline, possibly through Kevin. I
moved from the US for reasons such as the fact that Danish engineers have a
trade union, longer vacations, better employee benefits, etc."
>> Funny, you didn't seem to have a problem with racist, fascist and Nazi
>> oriented essays and imagery in the CoS when you were a member.
>
>Then you evidently never listened.
OK; why did you join the CoS if they were a bunch of racists, fascists and
Nazis?
>> Come to
>> think of it, you only seem to have a problem with such things when they're
>> not emanating from the orofice of your Tanimama.
>
>I can assure you I don't agree with Tani that socialism is identical to
>American fascism.
No, you say things like,
"I think if Germany had won the war, it would probably not have taken long
until the anti-semitism had tapered off, and we'd practically have the
European Union as we know it today. I dare say that with the exception of
perhaps mandatory German classes at school, we'd probably not be
significantly different from what we are now."
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1308052900d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3ba1b2ae%240%2451421%24edfadb0f%40dspool01.news.tele.dk
-Lupo
"A common harlot was enthroned in the Patriarch's chair, to hurl insults
at Jesus Christ; and she sang bawdy songs, and danced immodestly in the
holy place...." -Nicetas Choniates <i...@fnord.io.com>
Lisa
that the Dark Tradition was the ROOTS of Satanism! And you had extensively
studied this elsewhere on your own and saw our stuff was the same, stated in a
very pure form, and agreed with that. That's my understand of this. You knew
this stuff before you ever heard of ANY Satanic organization, from school you
knew it. I might even still have a letter about that, your first one. You
didn't learn it from us. You KNEW it already yet never heard of "satanism."
But Gilmore wrote that to you about "this" being the ROOTS of Satanism. Inso
telling you this, he defrauded you. But he did say it. The bitcher is
(snicker) that he really does understand and feel that stuff! [.......]>>
::SNIIIIIIIIIIIP::
Is it just me, or is this stuff the online equivalent of a neighbor's dog that
just -will not- stop barking?
Dear
[ ] Sir, [ ] AOLer, [x]Crybaby, [ ] Spammer,
[ ] Ma'm, [ ] Pervert,
[x]Loudmouth, [x] Bore,
[ ] Kid, [ ] Vegan, [ ]Clueless, [ ] Genius,
[ ] Troll, [x] Idiot, [ ]Webster, [ ] Newbie [x]
Bitch [x] Liar
You are being flamed because:
1. [ ] you cannot spell.
2. [ ] you cross-posted this dreck to multiple groups, none of whom give a
good goddamn about it.
3. [ ] you asked a question of mind-boggling stupidity.
4. [x]] you made a comment(s) of mind-boggling stupidity.
5. [ ] you continued a boring, useless and stupid thread.
6. [x] you always say the same thing over and over.
7. [ ] you have repeatedly made inappropriately off-topic posts.
8. [ ] you started a thread riddled with unoriginal profanities.
9. [x] you SCREAMED! A LOT! FOR A LONG TIME!
10. [ ] you posted the MAKE.MONEY.FAST scam or another chain letter.
11. [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group.
12. [x] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority.
13. [x] you are apparently under some demonic compulsion to say everything
that comes to mind.
14. [x] you keep on debating an argument you obviously lost a long time ago.
15. [ ] you have posted material with absolutly no content, of no
use to anyone and ranks as spam even for the groups in which
it obviously belongs.
16. [x] you are obviously a troll.
17. [x] you made claims you cannot possibly back up with solid evidence.
*18 [x] BONUS : You are Public Lunatic #1.
Thank you for the time you have already taken to repeatedly ignore these
observations. Have a nice day.
Lisa
females and encourages CHILDREN.>>
<<Tell me Tani, did you get married before or after you found yourself pregnant
at 13?>>
A riposte of such breathtaking clarity and insight, with such a keen cutting
edge that I stand back in awe. Why didn't I think of that?!
Axolotl2, take a bow; you've earned it.
Admit it, this is funny:
L.
People's Commissar
> In article <3dd20195$0$12510$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk>,
> - wolf - <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote:
> >> Funny, you didn't seem to have a problem with racist, fascist and Nazi
> >> oriented essays and imagery in the CoS when you were a member.
> >
> >Then you evidently never listened.
>
> OK; why did you join the CoS if they were a bunch of racists, fascists and
> Nazis?
I can answer that. He didn't know the Cos. He knew Vad's website and the
Danish satanists and had our stuff. He knew this stuff from long before he
ever heard of satanism, he told me that up front. He also has his own
stuff, in Danish, that's not from us at all. But it's basically similar.
That is why he finally joined - for that stuff alone. He told me this. It
should be evident from letters now posted that he despised Barton to such an
extent that the poor woman wrote to me about it, as if I could explain him
to her. Why didn't she write to him? I guess she was scared to? Anton
never wrote and asked him either, he was alive enough to have done that. I
guess he was as terrified of doing that as he was of going on on one with
Michael A. on doctrinal issues. Ole can be - ahem, inapproachable at
times. Ole has said this enough times. So you and your pals repeatedly
asking him is a bit much.
>
> >> Come to
> >> think of it, you only seem to have a problem with such things when
they're
> >> not emanating from the orofice of your Tanimama.
God, you have no clue how funny that is. I.e. - BULLSHIT.
> >
> >I can assure you I don't agree with Tani that socialism is identical to
> >American fascism.
FDR is not American fascism. Only in the mind of a citizen of Denmark could
that be remotely connected to fascism. And yeah, I fucking live here and
while I can voice all the "ethical" blather about this Usamma shit - I still
live here. Push came to shove, I'd get in a trench and FIGHT for my fucking
country against the towel heads or any other illegal invaders. Deeds.
Utopia can be put on hold.
Oh, you didn't say that, LOL.
>
> No, you say things like,
> "I think if Germany had won the war, it would probably not have taken long
> until the anti-semitism had tapered off, and we'd practically have the
> European Union as we know it today. I dare say that with the exception of
> perhaps mandatory German classes at school, we'd probably not be
> significantly different from what we are now."
I'd agree with that plus more. The EU would be ruled by the 3rd Reich -
similar to the Christian rule of the 2nd Reich (Holy Roman Empire - i.e.,
Germany). There'd have been no cold war which kinda wrecked the USA and
made a way for the Frankfurt School's use of the "dead threat of Hitler" in
their tyranny of PC on the public. You know about that, right Lup? There
would have been bonafide genuine U.S. left wing movements, pro labor - which
were NOT communist fronts paid for by Moscow for the sole purpose of
destroying the USA. The Jews, if they were exterminated, would have become
a footnote in the strong "manifest destiny" values of the Christian majority
in Europe and in the USA. The remainder of them if there were any, would
have been as important to the powers that be as the Native Americans were in
the past - NOT important, not even noticed. We'd never have handed over the
Panama Canal or let the Arabs nationalize and "own" those oil wells. There
would probably still be apartheid down south in some states. Being gay
would still be illegal and such people would be forcibly castrated or
injected with hormones as they were before PC came around. We wouldn't have
been in the mess we are in today with the Arabs (yeah, it's THEM) - if
Germany won the war - unless Germay tried to conquer US. Asia would have
been united from China to the Urals, possibly including Turkey.
I'd not have been born. Jerome and your buddy Filan would have been given
lobotomies for occasionally wearing make up or castrated at best for being
gay. All in all, in such a system, you'd have loved it - and so would Ole.
You'd both have fit right in and been right at home. How THAT for real?
That's real.
Do you disagree, Lupo? I'm not the only person that came to that kind of
obvious conclusion about what would have happened had Germany won the war -
or rather - if the USA never butted into that war at all. Btw, I'm for the
Monroe Doctrine.
Tani
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1308052900d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&se
People's Commissar
from people to people - most of them irrelevant.
The only assholes pulling the L word out of the book and trying to smear it
on us are you guys. Sorry, anyone with eyes can see we are one of the few
satanic orgs out there that uses nothing of theirs. And for that, they
should be very happy since we lightened their load when it came to bitching
about use of their stuff. We don't use it. We don't need it. We don't
want it. We never used it!
What I said about Lin, Zarnak-the-character and Lin's own nick at the time,
Wheatley etc is true. Like it or not. Despite the fun cards, no one in
this group was on about anything remotely resembling any satanic orgs out
there except our own SR. It's where we come from - more or less directly,
Sr comes from Kishites - that is, our own gang that kept this stuff in a
non-coded form since we were the ones that introduced it in the first place.
This bears no resemblence to any other cos-offshoot organization out there.
That's the facts. Somehow you like to forget Crowley and above all,
Wheatley's affect.
As I said, I could produce letters from person A to person B, but that would
not prove a thing. You are a joke. Glad to see I could baby speak explain
Derrida to you. At least something good came from bothering to chat with
you about anything.
Now you can fuck off:
DARK FORCE: ASAT, SAT & TAN
ASAT & SAT - SANKARA WROTE CLEARLY ON THIS
The oldest name of Brahma is Sanat-Kumara (see our Serpents vs. Adamites for
more on this). This would be part of what is called the Sanatana Dharma.
Brahma was made into a Deity for the "ones incapable of inner truth, the
ones who cannot Know it."
The Cosmos shows design, mathematically precise design. Ergo, it was
theorized that there must be an agent or ruler, or force, which creates and
maintains all things, as if forming things into a mathematical mold,
preserving it for awhile (coagule), and then dissolving it (solve). This is
Brahma. But this is more specifically Brahma:
Brahma has two conditions in relationship to the cosmos and all that exists
in the cosmos:
1. it is completely transcendental or outside of it.
2. it is completely present and infused everywhere in this cosmos.
Both, at the same time.
Both 1 and 2 have two aspects that can be Known: passive and active.
Transcendental, the passive is called ASAT. This is universal dissolution
back into The One. This "Big Crunch" is called Pralaya.
Transcendental, the active is called SAT. This is Being and the Sat
(through the five Tan or Tanmatri principals it manifests in this cosmos)
maintains Being. "The One"
The completely present and infused aspect, the passive is shown by the idea
that matter (and energy) seem to make the things in the cosmos seem real,
and yet when you try to look at matter, you see something that is being
acted upon. Question: acted upon by What? Answer: the Sat but this is now
the Sat in the form of ATMA which means "Infused Dark-Breath" i.e., Black
Flame.
The completely present and infused aspect, the active is ATMA. The Atma has
no qualities (like matter and energy do), but it brings about alteration in
everything that exists, to different degrees. Yet the Atma itself is
unchanging because it is, in truth, THE SAT, And it is the SAME ATMA in ALL
living things. "The All"
We reverse the active and passive in our doctrines (by that I mean the
Pythagorean and non-Hindu Tantrik) to mean more at YANG and YIN - light
(visible, seeable) and dark (hidden, invisible) - but the meanings are the
same in both traditions. (In the Pythagorean system, Atma is Pan meaning to
pan, the all. Sat is Apeiron or to en, the one.)
The things or people (living) that are able to feel this in them are called
"Brahman" and this means that "My 'soul' IS Brahma". Ergo: Abrahm means "NO
SOUL" (Adamite)!! This came to mean the name of a group of people much
later on and it took on the aspect of a "racial type." Not so in the
original doctrine at all.
Sanat-Kumara, in more detail, has five aspects - i.e., ways in which it can
be seen to affect matter/energy. These words are Vedic and Naga which is
far older than Sanskrit.
Originally, whoever was a Brahman, was a Brahman. Later on, this all became
hereditary priesthoods and racial laws and etc. Much later under the
Suryavansa came. And even much later than that, people who misunderstood
the word Aryan came, and misunderstood all of this.
That Dark Force that is molding all of matter/energy is our Cosmocrator.
Also later, a concept of "hell" was put forth - apparently by people who
felt as if life were hell. Then the faith and salvation dogma crept in.
Some whole groups of people just DO this because they FEEL this and it is
the only thing they are capable of understanding. Everything got changed
into religion. But the people who Know the doctrine simply by turning
within - they keep it pure.
They also knew that matter was Atomic and said it, described it clearly, but
that Kundalini or Atma is NON-atomic. The Greeks did not stress this as
much as the Vedics did. The Greeks instead knew that Atomic (Demiurgos) is
the thing that does sustain matter and keeps "That" which results in
increased entropy from totally ripping everything to shreds, and they knew
what would happen if you broke this force open: the tetraktys would
collapse. Tetraktys is "image you are in."
SAT AND TAN by Tani Jantsang
From the Vedanta and earlier Naga writings.
There is a Dark Force that Is. It is ONE and it is immutable reality. It is
infused into ALL living things - the atma, the "breath." It animates these
living things manifesting as Will. It is One-Thing - therefore, no matter
where it is, or what it is in, it is always One-Thing.
But the living things are multiform. No two are alike, and that is a LAW of
our Cosmos which this Dark Force RULES as it PUSHES the Cosmos onto constant
change, and at the same time consumes it, dissolves it. This is the Mystery
of the Serpent that eats its own Tail. No matter what, the Darkness is
always ONE. Some call it "none" because they have truly SEEN, but I'm sure
the reader can understand One-Thing better than he would understand "none."
In pre-Sanskrit, Deva-Nagari language of Nagas, this is called SAT:
This Dark-One-Thing IS what animates living things. Scientifically, as
regards things (matter/energy) - there is same exact amount of matter/energy
in the universe now as there was 100 trillion years ago and as there will be
100 trillion years from now; the amount never increases or decreased but it
constantly shifts and changes as if propelled on to constant change. Things
get more complex but there is never more or less of the things
(matter/energy). Let's focus on living things. The living things come in
many forms. Probably any form you can imagine, exists - somewhere, or at
sometime. As such, these things are ALL inter-related -- as if they too, are
One. Death is only the dissolution of this animating One from a given life
form. Then the flesh-form of the living thing goes through rapid change.
It's atomic or molecular structure falls apart. (Molecular - a living
creature; atomic, a star like the sun).
To be able to look at a cat, for instance, and See that animating Will, that
Darkness infused, the Atma -- this is the most beautiful and awesome thing I
can imagine. And to Know, "I am that too". To look at a seed, and watch it
become a tree. That growth, that Will to Become what it IS --- that is the
same Dark-One-Thing in the tree.
There is a chain, like a sequence to this all. One could call it a food
chain if one could truly see matter as it is moving through time - forming
a weave, or a pattern like in cloth. Big fish eats little fish. Bird eats
fish. Some animal eats the bird - and so on. Sometimes there is symbiosis
and two distinct things merge to become another wholly other thing - like
mitochondria evolved. It might seem "violent" to some - but that is due to
their Ignorance of the Laws of Nature. Each animal (and plant) in all of
their multi-forms, IS what it IS, and that Dark-One-Thing infused into it,
URGES IT to Will-to-Be WHAT IT IS and do what is innate for it to DO. They
flow on a Cosmic Wheel that spins and never stops spinning. The
Dark-One-Thing spins it, whirling. We experience this as Time. And we
usually experience time as change.
Each of the all-different living creatures (and plants) have a Law of their
OWN Nature. This Law is the result of how this Dark-One-Thing is "stretched"
so that it is infused into their particular being-flesh-atoms. How it is
infused, is called TAN (as in Tantra).
1. The creature lets-go to its own nature and the FLOW of its own Being.
2. The creature KNOWS its own boundaries, it knows who and what it IS.
3. It is connected to its parents, who are connected to their parents, who
are connected --- all the way to the slime, and ultimately, all the way back
to the ROOT before the Cosmos came into being.
4. The creature follows its own Nature without even thinking about it - it
is automatic.
5. The creature is in-tune, at-peace with its own chakra-flow and each part
of its own Being.
There is a 6th principle too, though it is not part of the Tan. It is
connected to the Abyss, it is a defender, though it really seems more like a
Child: Innocence. This Innocence is like a "sparkle in the Eye of the Great
Dark" like a shining diamond child, metaphorically speaking. ALL Black or
LHP magicians KNOW this! NONE would harm it!
The disrespect for what another creature IS, is a violation of ALL
principles of life. To hunt for food is normal. All animals do this as per a
chain of life. But that is part of innate survival instinct. Disrespect
means to NOT HONOR what another creature is. Or a human not respecting WHAT
another human of another type IS. This disrespect is EVIL, it is like a war
against the Great Darkness and it is thus, a war against the Self. The Dark
Breath in that other person is the SAME Dark Breath that is in the offender.
And, the Dark Breath CAN withdraw leaving a shell.
The turning of an animal, or a person, against himself, is a war against
Innocence. And it is a One Way ticket into the Abyss, as the destroyer
destroys HIMSELF. Christians and others who imagine there is a "battle"
between the "light and the dark" have waged this war over and over and yet
they SEARCH for Deity. They look for "a Light". They do not realize that the
Great Darkness IS THE LIGHT WHEN it is ANIMATING a living creature. They
seek the "light alone" and try to fend off the darkness. The Light can not
exist alone: it is IN Darkness, within the Darkness from whence it came and
into which it returns. The Vajra or Logos comes INTO YOU from Darkness. It
whooshes up as kundalini through the chakras (nerve centers) and nourishes
your entire Being. It whooshes up and OUT - back into the Darkness from
whence it came. As this process continuously happens, without being
blocked, the person flows on his path on the Wheel of Life. That kind of
person is in tune.
It is this process and the Darkness, that dualists have turned their own
backs on and waged a war on. When you turn your back on the Dark Breath, it
withdraws. What's left is a Klippoth or Preta - a thing with no Self.
See articles at www.apodion.com/vad/tani/index.shtml under the section on
Klippoths for more information about what Klippothic people DO.
Note: You can find the terms Sat and Asat in the Columbia Encyclopedia,
1971, volume 21, page 6433 under "Vedanta." You can also find "Sat" in the
1975 Encyclopedia Britannica, and from there find further references to this
and similar large schools of thought in the Micropedia.
There are 3 major schools of Vedanta interpretation, this one is the NON
DUALISTIC school of Sankara (a person) it's called the Advaita School. The
Esoteric one is for those who Know. The exoteric dualistic ones are for the
dummies who can't know and who need "personal gods." Tan, however, is a
simple root word, as in Tantra, Tanmatri, etc.
===============
Asat is a Sanskrit word ("sat") with a negative prefix ("A") that roughly
means "non-being." Yet in order to fully grasp the immense meaning contained
in this one word it is necessary to examine a few key concepts of the
Esoteric Tradition. The first of these is expressed by the Sanskrit word
parabrahm, and the second is mulaprakriti. We will first touch briefly upon
the meaning of the former, and then that of the latter, so that the end
result will be a somewhat basic understanding of not merely the words and
their etymology, but their inner meanings as they pertain to the Dark, or
Esoteric, Tradition.
The simple approach taken by Eastern Adepts, and Western to some extent,
often escapes serious scholars who, while certainly masters of the
philosophies they explore, tend to over intellectualize matters. Within
scholarly circles this practice may be perfectly acceptable and quite in
keeping with the free flow of ideas, but for the majority of us it is not so
important that we use eloquent speech or fanciful expositions. This is most
blatantly seen in the word used by Eastern Adepts when speaking of
parabrahm, it is simply tat, a sanskrit word which means "that." The world
of manifestation, conversely, is referred to as idam, another sanskrit word
which means "this." There is an almost childlike (not to be confused with
childish) sense by which an Eastern Initiate approaches the Esoteric
Tradition, so much so that the difference between Eastern and Western
philosophy has often been explained by pointing out that Eastern
philosophies are concerned with the wonder of life, while Western
philosophies deal primarily with fear and concerns about solving the
"problem" of existence. It needs to be clarified here that there are a great
many Western systems of Magick and Occultism which have the same grasp of
the wonderment and beauty of life as those of the East, yet invariably these
have drawn extensively on Eastern concepts. The word "Hermetic" itself is
attributed to those Eastern philosophies which have taken root in the West
and evolved into their own unique systems. The need for secrecy, per se, is
due to the Western environment in which these very Eastern concepts have
grown. One does not, for example, cast pearls before swine, as they can not
fathom their value and will treat them like so much common slop.
Turning back to the concept of parabrahm, the word itself comes from para
(beyond) and Brahman (universal life or consciousness). Parabrahm is that
which is beyond Brahman, that which is before all things that exist anywhere
at any time, the one boundless life/substance from which proceeds the
cyclical force often called the Logos. Parabrahm is essentially the cause,
insofar as words can express it, of the primordial vibration within the
Darkness, that first initiating urge to become. Parabrahm is not an entity
nor a centralized force, it can not be construed in any other way as simply
to indicate that which is beyond the capacity of any cognizing mind to
understand, that about which nothing can ultimately be said except that it
is "beyond" whatever our minds can conceive, and on some level is it's
cause. Parabrahm is intimately connected to our second concept,
mulaprakriti, which is it's veil.
Mulaprakriti is another compound sanskrit word which literally means root
nature, from mula (root) and prakriti (nature). What we see when we look
around us, what our hands feel and our senses perceive, all of matter, is
ultimately made of one substance which becomes differentiated, or
diversified into it's various states and compositions. Mulaprakriti is
precosmic in that it exists (inasmuch as these can be said to exist), with
parabrahm, before the manifestation of the cosmos, or what is also called
the Mahamanvantara (supreme manifestation). One might consider parabrahm as
pure consciousness, and mulaprakriti as the pure vehicle, or body if you
will, of parabrahm. In another more specific sense, mulaprakriti is the
appearance of parabrahm as seen by the Logos and transmitted to the
individualized mind.
In the Esoteric Tradition, the multivarious forms that matter takes, all of
the shapes and distinctly unique patterns which compose the vastness of the
cosmos, are called prakriti, which spring from the five tanmatras or subtle
elements. The five tanmatras begin as five logoic emanations of Asat (or
parabrahm-mulaprakriti) which in turn unfold the five mahabhutas, or loosely
"the primordial elements which become all things." The tanmatras are often
said to proceed from sat (pure existence, or BE-ness), and this is more
technically correct, as they partake of, and are in fact one with, the
essence of being itself which stretches forth (tan) in the great cosmic
threads woven into the fabric of reality by the cyclical and Logoic activity
caused by Asat. Asat in a sense can be said to give birth to sat, and sat
can also be said to beget Asat, and this creates a kind of perpetual motion
from which all of the cosmos ultimately springs. The true meaning of pi to
the Pythagoreans, then, is seen to be not so much concerned with the
measurements of circles as we see them, but more with expressing that
perpetual motion which is always "slightly imbalanced" in a certain sense,
so as to be simultaneously appearing and disappearing.
Asat also has a secondary meaning in the Esoteric Tradition. Because of the
literal meaning of the word it is often applied to all illusory phenomenon
in the cosmos and is, in this sense, identical with the mayavi element which
is said to enter into all manifested things. In other words, sat, or
enduring BE-ness, is said to be eternal and in every sense "real," while
that which comes into existence as the various forms (prakritis) of
objective matter are said to be fundamentally non-existent, or Asat, because
temporary. That is also referred to as Samsara.
So there is Being and Non-Being, but these are absolutes. We don't ever see
something that totally "is" and something that totally"is not." Instead, we
see an interaction of the two. They interact dialectically and achieve a
synthesis as "Becoming." This is all we ever see. Look for a shadow. It
is dark but, in the real world, it is never perpetually dark, but is in the
process of going from dark to light, i.e., it, like all tings, is Becoming.
This is why the Marxists liked Heracleitos, who said that nothing is, and
nothing is not, but all is in a state of becoming. He said "pantos rhei,"
i.e., "all is flowing." The only way to see something that is "totally
red," let's say, if if time stopped. A modern physicist would say that red
is not a thing, it is not static, but is a process. It's hard to think of
"pure being" without thinking of "void" or "pure non being." But in the
real world, there is only Becoming, which is some sort of synthesis of the
two (Being and Non-Being, Sat and Asat) which transcends them both: i.e.,
Becoming is different from Being and Non-being.
In the Esoteric tradition, Tan is the stretching forth of the five tanmatri
that infuse into the prakiti, as if one blended, and this process is what
causes the Becoming.
Sir Chaos
The word LaVey used in the Satanic Bible and elsewhere is
"Satanas". Ave Satanas. Regie Satanas. In nomine dei nostri
-Satanas- Luciferi excelsi. Satan-AS. Good ol' mocking corrupted
Latin.
I know your claims quite well and none of them have nothing to do
with this simple point. You can blather and squeal and post copies of
crap all you want, Tani. I'll even let most of your lies pass by, as
there are well enough critics to disprove your fallacies without any
assistance from me. Those who would believe your gibber anyway
deserve exactly what they get. I don't care a whit who came first, or
what the reasoning is. But "No, the word Satan-IS was used by LaVey
exclusively" is just plain flat-out stupid and desperately wrong.
The corrupted Latin used by Anton Szandor LaVey in the Satanic
Bible, the Satanic Rituals, and elsewhere is "Satanas".
-Sir Chaos
--
"I am simply using words which fit the subject at hand. I am aware
that they are inflammatory words: they are most useful as such.
Rather like calling you a cretinous nincompoop, and third cousin to a
microcephalic donkey, and a shameless simpleton."
- Lupo LeBoucher
People's Commissar
Latin. Our group was SWS - no satan words at all in that. Neither are
there in Kishites. Not even a mention of it. There are scores of DT
mentions along with other names for the stuff, but "satan" never crept into
any of it. Distance was the order of the day - just like the witches and
warlocks chose to do - distance themselves.
Now go away. That stuff used to be all up on Vad's site - two letters in
fact, but these were not so relevant to the rest of the information we put
for historical reasons only.
They used SSS. That's how it was on their cards. So what? Wheatley used
it too. Zarnak is Wheatley-esque. Not even remotely LaVeyan.
Go your own way - if you can possibly manage to do that. We don't use your
stuff. Deal with that. Deal with the concept that our organization doesn't
go by personalities - we have the Dark Tradition. That's it. You people
are behaving as if you resent the fact that we do NOT use your stuff.
That's mighy peculiar.
The CoS is becoming pretty well known as an org that does nothing BUT try to
trash other orgs! Do you like that image? If not, I strongly suggest you
start posting positive things of YOUR OWN.
"Sir Chaos" <sirc...@wolfenet.com> wrote in message
news:3dc2bc99.02111...@posting.google.com...
> "
>
- wolf -
> Ave Maria. Ave Satana? Nah, that sounds female. Make it Satanas since
> male names seem to have an "s" on them. That's about the run of the mill
> thinking on this.
I was told by someone that went through a basic course in Latin that off the
top of her head, the word "Satanas" was borrowed from the Greek language,
and in Latin the "as" suffix would cast it as female gender. However, Satan
considered a male, male grammar would be implied, and anything involving
"Satanas" would therefore necessarily cause confusions in a sentence.
Well, At least that's how I inderstood her explanation. I might be wrong,
as I don't speak Latin. I know the profane language much better.
- wolf -
Victor LeNettoyeur™
alt.satanism again. Here she is, dancing around like a rabid mongrel in
heat for our amusement in message:<ut94p5a...@corp.supernews.com>...
> My, you have turned out to be a schmuck...
> The only assholes pulling the L word out of the book and trying to smear
> it on us are you guys...
> You are a joke...
> Now you can fuck off...
Phyllis, why are you bitching (or is that BEE-YATCH-ING) at Ryan? He's made
salient points at every turn, relevant to the topic you started, and has
not stooped to personally insulting you or anyone else.
This is alt.satanism, Phyllis; not alt.peoples.commissar nor
alt.satanic.reds. If you don't like a pertinent discussion and can not
psychologically handle differences of opinion, then perhaps you should
scoot your wizened old ass away from the hand-me-down computer that -wolf-
sent you on charity and go have some real-world fun.
Kevin Filan certainly has you pegged. You are a horribly insecure old woman
who can't handle any sort of dissent or disagreement.
Have a great day (you won't).
/victor
--
"You have murder in your heart. You are thus, a murderer. You are a
sychophant helping to do nothing but destroy this newsgroup with your
incessant bitching about people's views. You are a murderer of free
speech. You are a murderer of ideas. You love that because you are scum."
-Enraged that I had the nerve to publicly disagree with Phyllis Rose on
usenet, Jeff Gerber hands down a capital indictment in message:
<3BC2...@MailAndNews.com>
RyanS2
> Latin.
I'd bet dollars to beer bottles those Mexicans also have a copy of the
Satanic Bible. (Seeing as how "Ave" isn't used in Spanish to mean
"hail", it means "bird" in Spanish. Did I mention I also speak a
little Spanish?) Bird-Satan? I have no doubt that whomever wrote
that didn't speak Latin, that's very obvious. The point of contention
is that using LaVey's bastardized Latin is a sign of having read
LaVey. It is axiomatic that to have read LaVey, LaVey must have first
been in print. Therefore, the conclusion from the premise followed to
its conclusion is that these groups came out post-LaVey. Nor does it
make any sense if these people HATED LaVey he was POISON and SCUM
and.... well, we all can remember the rest, (do we need the
reminders?), it makes no sense that they were copying off his bad
Latin.
>Wheatley used
> it too.
Wheatley used "Satanas"? Where?
> The CoS is becoming pretty well known as an org that does nothing BUT try to
> trash other orgs!
Well, another point of contention. The CoS has never trashed me, or
tried to hack my website, or done anything against me whatsoever. The
Secret Occult Spies of Kevin Filan and Company never did anything to
me whatsoever. I've referenced that website here several times, and
it gets well over ten thousand page hits each month, if the CoS
StormTroopers of Evil and Doom, (hey, straight out of a Wheatley
novel!), were out running about, I'd be a likely target.
However, Tani, you DO NOT know, and you WILL NEVER KNOW, and you
CANNOT KNOW, because you are a sycophantic klippoth. In fact, Tani,
much to your surprise, I read the archives from the first year the
E-group was up and running. If you remember them, (look at them
now!), one of the first discussions was about LaVey, and you stated
you did not think he was a klippoth. Now he is. Seeing as how he's
dead, he certainly can't have accumulated klippoth points after he was
dead? (Did he come in a dream with Saddam?)
The fact is that you CANNOT know history, and those of us who do,
point this out repeatedly. The reason you CANNOT know history is that
you view it like ordering food from a take-out, that you can change it
at any time to suit your convienance. However, those of us who KNOW,
yes we KNOW this isn't true. You can keep your Dark Doctrines all you
want, no one really gives a damn about them, (want to start a poll?),
but the fact that you lie to your own members and everyone else about
things that didn't exist until after LaVey had been around shows a
rather distinct klippothic touch to you.
Btw, don't take this seriously, I'm just having fun.
Axolotl2
People's Hypocrite wrote:
>
> So what? Mexicans that Les knows also say Ave Satanas.
Les can barely spell his own name correctly. He's hardly a reliable
source to report back on how someone else spells or pronounces a
particular word or phrase.
Sir Chaos
> So what?
So your statement, "No, the word Satan-IS was used by LaVey
exclusively" is just plain flat-out stupid and desperately wrong. A
nice try though. I advise you to read what you would quote before
attempting to utilize it wrongly.
I don't have to argue this. Well enough people here on
alt.satanism have read the Satanic Bible and easily prove it for
themselves if they don't remember the exact spelling of LaVey's
corrupted Latin. That you can't admit that you are simply wrong on
this basic point is indicative of your own inner blindness, which, by
the way, is what I loathe about you, Ooey Gooey.
> Mexicans... Lin...
I don't care.
> Our group was SWS - no satan words at all in that. Neither are
> there in Kishites. Not even a mention of it.
That is because neither group were composed of Satanists. It was
a joke, just like your new little support group is a joke. Just like
you, yourself, are a joke.
> ....Now go away.
No.
> That stuff...Vad's site... reasons.... SSS.... cards.... So what?
Exactly. So what.
> blah squeal blah moan... [*snip*]
I could care less. My point has clearly been made.
It's about time to dump out your "depends", Icky Sticky. Nobody
gives a shit except you.
It's about time you shut your yap.
-Sir Chaos
--
"If you can't take the heat, get out of the crematorium."
- Robert C. Hedley
- wolf -
> now!), one of the first discussions was about LaVey, and you stated
> you did not think he was a klippoth. Now he is. Seeing as how he's
> dead, he certainly can't have accumulated klippoth points after he was
> dead?
I've mentioned something about her use of alternate pasts a while back on
another topic, but in this particular case I remember what Tani has said to
me on the phone several years ago. She said that LaVey is what she has
coined a "star-race," not that I'm able to explain what those are beyond
parroting what Tani has said about these people. (This particular "star
race" theory eludes me, although on some level it makes sense to me that
people can grasp some left hand path ideas but fail miserably when they try
to connect the dots, if that's what is meant.) According to Tani, this
"star-race" shares characteristics with klippoths, but aren't entirely
klippothic. Tani's definition of those people states that they can be
"powerful allies," although I don't know in what way this is intended. In
any event, if LaVey is a person that fits Tani's notion of a "star race,"
then he's not a klippoth, but does exhibit klippothic behavior. Hence,
according to her own definition of a star race as "not quite klippothic,"
Tani is actually consistent in her description of LaVey, unless she's now
considering him a full-fledged klippoth.
Of course, critics might argue that the "star race" is just a wildcard term
for people that Tani trusts or likes at first but later despises for
whatever reasons she might have. Off the top of my head, I'd imagine that
Peter Gilmore, Egan, and Sir Chaos fall into this category, or it might work
the other way round where she suddenly supports people she used to combat.
Dunno.
- wolf -
People's Commissar
tales were found by the executor and are now published!) was so tongue in
cheek since never once did anyone involved in any of that talk about satan,
black masses or anything remotely like that. It was heavily dark type LHP
stuff, yes - but that's about it. We brought in the more eastern stuff -
well, my cousins - me and my friends later on. What does the phrase mean?
The select society of satan? I never even asked anyone what it meant, tho
"Shaggai" asked. That's what I quoted from but the copy I have, he's
answering someone who told him where it was from. It kinda fits in with
what they were actually doing if you look at the writings of Saints as
"novels!" They were writing stories about bygone times. LIKE scripture.
That stuff used to be on Vad's website along with a heap of other stuff, I
think jpegs of it - that were just not so relevant in explaining the actual
1972 thing that happened. Wayne C was a COS member I guess for a very short
time. But no one else was and Lin certainly was NOT. Lin's thing predates
all of this crap. The point is, NO ONE ever saw those cards and when letter
heads got used, it was a total complete GOOF. Serious letters about actual
stories, or notes or even personal stuff that friends wrote, was just plain
old letter. We had a letterhead too for SWS. If I can judge by the reams
of correspondence, the letter heads remained in our desks since I never saw
anyone use one, LOL.
Read Wheatley's novel "The Satanist" - it was hard for me to track down, but
I finally found it, published1960. Aside from the way out stuff, the rest
might blow your mind. For me it was obvious that this is where Lin got the
ideas to do this. Even the way we "recruited" heh - well, "hey read this,
you like it?" was similar tho we generally "recruited" amongst people that
already knew one or more of these LHP traditions and not some pop thing. It
is the reason WHY the original stuff "grabs" people - and why the later
stuff, the pastishes and such, just kinda fall flat. Lots of people
wondered about this - there is something "other" about those stories - as
doofus as some of them are - SOMETHING that grabs the heart and holds you.
Some are more mundane, some are "outre" (that spelling) and wholly OTHER but
even Derleth - he grabs. So, what is it? Someone else goes and writes a
perfectly good monster story and well, whatever "IT" is, it's NOT THERE in
that story. So what is it? Well, heh.
Makes me take another look at Jung. I can make a one to one comparison
between 1. this invented monster and 2. this other invented one that has
recognizable similarties in feature AND name to something from the real
traditions. The second one grabs people, even people unfamiliar with any of
it. The first one does not. WHY? I can see why it was recognizable to me,
even Price said it: Nyarlathotep IS Mahakala! But Ole, Nyarlathotep
stories do NOT grab me. It's the oceanic ones that do. Why? Cause I like
the beach? Nah. This stuff has grabbed people and set them on a course to
get Ph.D's in literature, it has inspired people to become marine
biologists - and many people I worked with at the med school READ some of
this stuff early on. So what is it?
You ought to read "Call of Cthulhu" and maybe see for yourself. See if it
grabs and then heh - give your take on this. What is it? I really don't
know! It's NOT the Dark Tradition. But somehow, the "mood" of it, as SILLY
as some of those tales are (especially Derleth) the mood ends up with some
other, unrelated 10 ton clarity coming from it even if it's wholly
unrelated. It's very strange. Try it - the story IS online! You can buy
"Trail of Cthulhu" by Derleth pretty cheap, B got it. It's 5 stories to
make one novel. (Get to find out who Clayborne is, btw)... Please DO read
it - Call of Cthulhu. I'd like your take on it IF it grabs like that.
As for SSS, I could never get the words in the right order, Selectus
Societas or is it Societas Selectus - whatever. It was a goof. No one
outside ever saw it except for Wayne's group and the women in it were
totally against it due to the 's' word. Point is, if not for SWS and then
us making Kishites, no one would have had all this in one place. All it had
to do was be made "pretty." And as such, SR would have have formed with DT
like that. But SSS? It just didn't fit anything Wayne and the others were
actually doing and caused nothing but trouble, especially with neo-wiccans
of the time. Hey, I bet with computers someone would be able to make over
our SWS symbol, it was pretty! a diamond shape (rhombus?) with a curvey
crossed vajra in it but with two dots like yin/yang, rays like the sun on
the outside of it. Hmm, an idea! I have a lot of stuff like that,
diagrams, and such.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd4ed5e$0$2555$edfa...@dread12.news.tele.dk...
Lisa
Les and his spelling aside, I truly do not understand why how some anonymous,
unknown Mexicans pronouce "Satanas" is supposed to convince us all she's
somehow right. As Chaos remarked earlier, who cares? Why does what some
science-fiction writer have to say on the issue important? Who asked about or
cares about Mexican pronunciation? She doesn't give a damn about correct Latin,
but these anonymous Mexicans are supposed to offer some strange *proof*?
Mexicans are avid Latin students? She watches a movie with LaVey in it and
immediately deduces he means to be writing "Satanis" instead of "Satanus"?
What, was the movie close-captioned?
If this gets any stranger, I'm going to stop laughing.
*Nah*......
L.
People's Commissar
Did it ever occur to you that LaVey may have read Carter? I can show you
straight up inferential or circumstantial evidence to prove this, Ryan. I
can even use your kind of no-brain illogic and "prove" that LaVey took his
very name from Lin's own character and self-nickname. Keep in mind, this
stuff was around in the 1920's. LaVey did read it. He would have run into
Carter's stuff in the 1950's since Carter was in another "in circle" of
people, writers. Carter provably wrote Zarnak tales in the 1950's. By the
way Ryan, Carter's nick was ANTON ZARNAK. He provably had that in 1950's;
provably. Consider this, two of LaVey's favorite names: Szandor?
Carnacki? Combine them: Zarnak. I often wondered if LaVey got Anton
Szandor from Anton Zarnak - and yeah I asked someone in these groups once.
My question got nipped in the bud "We have nothing to do with that."
Abrupt.
Carter didn't speak a word of Latin. You might have this the other way
around for all I know since Anton Zarnak was alive and in print in the
1950's and so were those cards with the Zarnak name on them. That's
something you never considered. Lin had those cards very early on, again,
they were like a goof, or I should say that during the time I ran into it,
it was definitely a goof. It, the "satan-AS" pronounciation, was in
movies, also. If you hear someone in a movie saying that, in English you'd
spell it precisely like that. ah ah ah, 3 times in the word.
See in, Ryan.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
>
> I'd bet dollars to beer bottles those Mexicans also have a copy of the
> Satanic Bible. (Seeing as how "Ave" isn't used in Spanish to mean
> "hail", it means "bird" in Spanish. Did I mention I also speak a
> little Spanish?) Bird-Satan?
Well, then I guess they sing the BIRD MARIA in their Catholic Masses? Ave
Maria. Ava Maria, also - I've seen it both ways. BIRD Maria?
I have no doubt that whomever wrote
> that didn't speak Latin, that's very obvious. The point of contention
> is that using LaVey's bastardized Latin is a sign of having read
> LaVey.
Or seeing Carter's bastardized Latin is what Tony actually did and as usual,
copied it. LaVey is known for copying other's ideas. Lin never did that
unless he OPENLY wrote collaborations.
It is axiomatic that to have read LaVey, LaVey must have first
> been in print.
I have many doubts, including doubts about where Tony got the name. See
above. Szandor (pronounced Zandor) and Carnacki = Zarnak. And Anton, same
first name. Carter's came first, 1950's. Provable. Perhaps Carter's
bastardized goof of Latin is where LaVey got it. Carter came first, dear.
1950 comes before 1969. Considering that Anton got *everything* he ever
"thought" from elsewhere, I'd more likely assume this. Lin was 100%
creative. LaVey was not.
Therefore, the conclusion from the premise followed to
> its conclusion is that these groups came out post-LaVey. Nor does it
> make any sense if these people HATED LaVey he was POISON and SCUM
> and.... well, we all can remember the rest, (do we need the
> reminders?), it makes no sense that they were copying off his bad
> Latin.
Your conclusions are based on missing information about Anton Zarnak and the
SSS. They (everyone, not just them) hated him not for the "satan" church,
but for the whole 99% rest of what he was spewing, like a raging bull
against every other occult current around at the time and even bitching
against the women's movement for shit's sakes. Catch a clue, this is a
no-brainer. Go read his CH's from back then and the rest of what he had to
say. Grouching all over the place against older and wiser groups and civil
rights oriented political groups of the day, moaning that they didn't accept
him as some authority. Authority of what? Sybil Leek knew more than he
knew. And meeting one of them, a Baphomet wearing idiot walking down the
street. Every time, a completly obnoxious asshole that did nothing but stir
up trouble and preach as ardently as a fundie, preach AT people, bible in
hand. Satanic bible, that is. Sure, people hated them. OK? Simple. Ask
Aquino about Bruce Ithier for a classic sample of a COS Priest.
>
> >Wheatley used
> > it too.
>
> Wheatley used "Satanas"? Where?
He wrote "The Satanist" and it is ON Wheatley the actual man, that Anton
Zarnak is modelled, occult investigator, all that. The difference is that
Lin wrote this all up as fiction.
>
> > The CoS is becoming pretty well known as an org that does nothing BUT
try to
> > trash other orgs!
>
> Well, another point of contention. The CoS has never trashed me, or
> tried to hack my website, or done anything against me whatsoever. The
> Secret Occult Spies of Kevin Filan and Company never did anything to
> me whatsoever.
Well, you are not Michael Aquino - you are - nobody. No threat to them.
I've referenced that website here several times, and
> it gets well over ten thousand page hits each month, if the CoS
> StormTroopers of Evil and Doom, (hey, straight out of a Wheatley
> novel!), were out running about, I'd be a likely target.
Their HP is the one who wrote that bcc email that got outed - and they don't
even deny he wrote it. End of story. You aren't worth attacking, simple as
that.
>
> However, Tani, you DO NOT know, and you WILL NEVER KNOW, and you
> CANNOT KNOW, because you are a sycophantic klippoth. In fact, Tani,
> much to your surprise, I read the archives from the first year the
> E-group was up and running. If you remember them, (look at them
> now!), one of the first discussions was about LaVey, and you stated
> you did not think he was a klippoth. Now he is. Seeing as how he's
> dead, he certainly can't have accumulated klippoth points after he was
> dead? (Did he come in a dream with Saddam?)
The egroup existed long after he was dead - so his aliveness or deadness has
nothing to do with anything. COS members were in the SR back then and they
did bring that up. Not anymore! They are no longer in the SR and while we
don't ban them, we don't encourage them to join. To make extra special
sure, if they say on application they are COS, I tell them to check with
their HP before attempting to join us. That usually works. We don't want
them, OK? What we get are people that are very intellectual and from very
different currents - current outside of neo-satanism. You can't judge an
egroup from the start of it. It's been around longer now - and imo, it's
100% better. I think somethings about Anton were klippothic and I told him
this in letter straight up. Other things, like his music - NO, not at all.
He was dead during the time those first messages were written, btw. In
fact, he was dead from the first day I got online, end of 1999. So? Taking
another look at ALL that grouching he did, always against every other
movement as if this bothered him - that tells me he was klippothic. Well,
the Anton that certain people like to portray him as, is 100% klippothic.
That is NOT to say that this is the real Anton. It's just their version of
Anton today. Hey, I think he knew he was partly klippothic - how could he
not know this? He died miserable and was miserable a lot of the time. NO
big deal. He bitched and moaned that ice cream cones are no longer ten
cents, but had no clue whatsoever about economic realities.
>
> The fact is that you CANNOT know history, and those of us who do,
> point this out repeatedly. The reason you CANNOT know history is that
> you view it like ordering food from a take-out, that you can change it
> at any time to suit your convienance. However, those of us who KNOW,
> yes we KNOW this isn't true. You can keep your Dark Doctrines all you
> want, no one really gives a damn about them, (want to start a poll?),
A poll taken on this newsgroup is a no-brainer. We got 100 thousand hits
according to yahoo, on actual articles, in 3 months. 30 thousand more one
month later. No one keeps track except for B checking it that one time. No
one keeps track normally, but B looked. People like these doctrines. No
one cares what neo-Lavayans think, including you, Ryan. We don't want them
in our org. Period. They are GONE. Every single one of them is gone - and
that subject just does not come up at all, not anymore. Good fucking
riddance! Enough already. The last person who joined and asked about it
was told he was asking the wrong organization about another organization.
Then he was told to go JOIN them and find out for himself. The good point
is that no one ELSE in SR even knew the answer to what he asked - or cared
about it. He got ignored.
> but the fact that you lie to your own members and everyone else about
> things that didn't exist until after LaVey had been around shows a
> rather distinct klippothic touch to you.
I don't lie about anything. I could show you reams of letters - but of
course, that wouldn't prove a thing. You are "whatever." What would you
like to do, Carbon date the SSS card I still have from Lin? Lmao. You are
a shit disturber that never even gave other intellectuals a chance to chat
with you. As Dave said: good riddance.
>
> Btw, don't take this seriously, I'm just having fun.
Sure. And Egan thinks I have "witchy power" and is scared of me. Sure.
And Egan considers you like a son. Sure. Right.
The Dark Tradition is there for those it touches and calls. Normal people
don't carry on as you do. And let's not forget that one of their spaniels
dragged the DT into their stupid spew. They just go on their way if they
are not called by this stuff. What I said about "before" LaVey showed up is
100% fucking true. How things were. How NO ONE gave a rat's as about the
"s" word. It was his ranting against people who knew traditions that turned
them off, calling these people "Christians" or other blather. So they
called HIM a Christian and declared the dogma: "you HAVE to believe in the
Christian god, in order to be a satanist." That is the standard dogma and
mantra you will run into these days. All of this is due to the shit he
pulled in the past. That is a fact, Ryan. It's due to his negative shit
that Michelet was forgotton.
Tani
People's Commissar
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd56566$0$35993$edfa...@dread13.news.tele.dk...
> "RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > If you remember them, (look at them
> > now!), one of the first discussions was about LaVey, and you stated
> > you did not think he was a klippoth. Now he is. Seeing as how he's
> > dead, he certainly can't have accumulated klippoth points after he was
> > dead?
>
> I've mentioned something about her use of alternate pasts a while back on
> another topic,
The problem with you is that you are TOLD part of something, a very small
part that you think is a BIG part. When the rest comes out - you fret.
Well.... too bad. I would NEVER have had the conversation that Phil and
Jeff had with you. NEVER. Jeff showed me not long after. Had you asked
me, I'd have been silent.
but in this particular case I remember what Tani has said to
> me on the phone several years ago. She said that LaVey is what she has
> coined a "star-race," not that I'm able to explain what those are beyond
> parroting what Tani has said about these people. (This particular "star
> race" theory eludes me, although on some level it makes sense to me that
> people can grasp some left hand path ideas but fail miserably when they
try
> to connect the dots, if that's what is meant.) According to Tani, this
> "star-race" shares characteristics with klippoths, but aren't entirely
> klippothic. Tani's definition of those people states that they can be
> "powerful allies," although I don't know in what way this is intended. In
> any event, if LaVey is a person that fits Tani's notion of a "star race,"
> then he's not a klippoth, but does exhibit klippothic behavior. Hence,
> according to her own definition of a star race as "not quite klippothic,"
> Tani is actually consistent in her description of LaVey, unless she's now
> considering him a full-fledged klippoth.
Kaballa refers to them as klippothic races. I personally don't quite see
that, but I might be wrong. I told Gilmore that too, very early 1990's.
Top right point. Even the way he had the Vajra going DOWN INTO the pentacle
and interwove it backwards is a key here. The Vajra goes up and out thru a
person, not down into them. It was Wayne Hill that first pointed that out.
Well, the doctrine on that is in Kaballa - I mention the names of them. But
I know of no other words to use for it and it's outside the Tradition - it
sure the hell is not part of anything I learned in tradition I'm from. But
yeah, you defined it right.
I maintain that the Anton that his members or online spokespeople are NOW
portraying as "the real Anton" is a fully klippothic Anton. Is that the
real Anton? I don't think so. But my opinion doesn't matter. According to
their new revised version, Anton gave Vad a priest title for putting up the
DDocs as a total goof. In other words, you got duped and it was all on
purpose, ha ha ha. Gilmore lied to you, you dumbass rube, ha ha ha. That's
the version now. Do you disagree with that? Well, don't take it up with
ME. That's the new version, Ole. Do you believe that? I have no problem
obliging them. They have nothing to do with the Dark Tradition - period.
Anything else I don't particularly give a shit about except when they drag
us into their shit on here, or repeatedly try to smear Anton on us where it
most definitely does NOT belong. So that means, that Vad's title was a
total goof. If Vad got a letter from Anton, it was just a goof, he was
being conned. Period. So why would the con artists bitch about being
conned or expect anyone to trust them when they admit to loving the Idea of
conning people?
>
> Of course, critics might argue that the "star race" is just a wildcard
term
> for people that Tani trusts or likes at first but later despises for
> whatever reasons she might have.
It's in Kaballa - go reread it.
Off the top of my head, I'd imagine that
> Peter Gilmore, Egan, and Sir Chaos fall into this category, or it might
work
> the other way round where she suddenly supports people she used to combat.
> Dunno.
What the gang here (not you) thought of Chaos the entire time was just "not
for your information." Peter Gilmore and Lord Egan are NOT star races.
You fall into the error of imagining that "star race" is a bad name reserved
for enemies. Wayne Hill is one (omg, and he's my friend, GASP, OMG one is
in SR as a heavy, OMG - don't be a twit). The thing is, Wayne KNEW he was
one, no one told him this - he told US this. There is another one we both
know that is in SR - and he KNOWS he's one too; he's one of the Heavies, he
has real clarity - not the thing you call clarity (academic studies). He
did not get the idea of any of this from me or anything we sell, either.
One of the TOP SR heavies is a star race. Wayne Hill is a star race. So
what? They know it. They know they DO klippothic things at times - and
you must have forgotten, but that's a very specific INNER thing, not outer
behavior - a person can behave like HItler and NOT BE a klippoth at all. My
my how YOU forget what you used to know. But otherwise these 2 star races'
clarity is ten ton solid gold and they can affect people, hah, oh you bet.
They know on the inner level more than you will ever know. Reread in
Kaballa article. The ones with clarity often do know they are this - but
"star race" is just a name I came up for it considering I had no other name,
I never knew of any name for it. Kaballa calls them "klippothic races."
Outright. Go reread it.
There are many fine things about the Anton I knew that are not klippothic at
all. He was not the "COS is a dictatorship" monster wanting to goof on
everything sincere and sucker rubes into obeying him, rigid and intractable.
He was rather easy going and friendly. But who am I to say? The New
Spokespeople have created a New Anton - and that Anton is 100% pure
klippoth. Do you disagree?
Consider this, Wolf: What are the chances that a young Howard, WANTING to
know about any and all occult organizations, ran into Lin's thing (after
all, Anton DID know CA Smith and Smith and Carter collaborated on a heap of
stories, Ole!) . What are the chances that he saw SSS written on this card
with a Baphomet on it, just like on that book published in 1930, with the
nake ANTON ZARNAK on it? After all, he'd have been Howard at the time he
could have seen this. Right? SSS card with ANTON ZARNAK on it. Provable -
stories written long before LaVey got the idea to become LaVey.
I say the chances are very high - especially since Smith and Carter wrote
stories together. Heh.
Anton Zarnak - SSS. Chew on it. Hey, maybe we discovered something here,
eh? Do you care? I don't. Fuck it. We have Dark Tradition. That's all
that matters to US - and since detractrors are not US and waste their time
detracting instead of going off on their own merry way - it means absolutely
nothing.
>
> - wolf -
>
>
People's Commissar
"Axolotl2" <anon...@cotsebay.cotse.net> wrote in message
news:9IK44BA13757...@anonymous.poster...
People's Commissar
2. Zarnak IS Lin. Stories are NOW published in a collection, no longer
hidden.
3. Lin and Smith wrote many stories together.
4. Howard (pre Anton) knew Smith and was interested in all things hinting of
occult.
5. Of all the things Anton mentioned, he conveniently left out any and all
things he did, or said, with Smith.
What are the chances that Anton got his "satanas" and use of Baphomet not
from the book we know he had, but from Lin? GREAT. What are the chances
that his favorite names, Szandor and Carnacki were derifed from ZARNAK?
Great. Zarnak came first - PROVABLY so. 1950's.
"Sir Chaos" <sirc...@wolfenet.com> wrote in message
news:3dc2bc99.02111...@posting.google.com...
> The Worm Queen hisses:
>
> > So what?
>
> So your statement, "No, the word Satan-IS was used by LaVey
> exclusively" is just plain flat-out stupid and desperately wrong. A
> nice try though. I advise you to read what you would quote before
> attempting to utilize it wrongly.
I refer to his movie. Must have not been paying much attention to anything
else, ooo, sue me. I had that card of his from the first time I saw
ANYTHING my cousin had from him. There is no way to prove such a thing.
You can't carbon date the damned thing, you know. But - it's easy to prove
Anton Zarnak was Lin's character before Howard did his thing. Very easy.
>
> I don't have to argue this. Well enough people here on
> alt.satanism have read the Satanic Bible and easily prove it for
> themselves if they don't remember the exact spelling of LaVey's
> corrupted Latin. That you can't admit that you are simply wrong on
> this basic point is indicative of your own inner blindness, which, by
> the way, is what I loathe about you, Ooey Gooey.
You were equally always loathed by us, Chaos.
ANTON ZARNAK - SSS - 1950's. I could choose to believe, based on this
strong circumstantial evidence, that Anton STOLE IT, all of it, like he
stole everything else. But I'd rather forget YOUR org and everything of YOU
people since it has nothing to do with us. You just keep dragging your
selves in front of our faces, for some very strange odd reason that makes no
sense.
>
> That is because neither group were composed of Satanists. It was
> a joke, just like your new little support group is a joke. Just like
> you, yourself, are a joke.
You LaVeyans are not Satanists. You have no Satan, no religion, no church.
You are a joke. Theologically you are seen as joke. We are not! Eat that,
boy - and now go on your merry way.
Our group is to-date the biggest Satanic-realm org out there. And we
definitely do NOW give anyone LaVeyan connected the cold shoulder. We don't
want them. They are nothing but a royal pain in the ass. There are 3 other
LaVeyan organizations that agree with that, not to mention Professor James
Lewis's assessment. We are not a LaVeyan based organization. For some odd
reason, this seems to really bother you.
Taras Tymoshenko
> I maintain that the Anton that his members or online spokespeople are NOW
> portraying as "the real Anton" is a fully klippothic Anton. Is that the
> real Anton? I don't think so. But my opinion doesn't matter. According
to
> their new revised version, Anton gave Vad a priest title for putting up
the
> DDocs as a total goof. In other words, you got duped and it was all on
> purpose, ha ha ha. Gilmore lied to you, you dumbass rube, ha ha ha.
That's
> the version now. Do you disagree with that? Well, don't take it up with
> ME. That's the new version, Ole. Do you believe that? I have no problem
> obliging them. They have nothing to do with the Dark Tradition - period.
> Anything else I don't particularly give a shit about except when they drag
> us into their shit on here, or repeatedly try to smear Anton on us where
it
> most definitely does NOT belong. So that means, that Vad's title was a
> total goof. If Vad got a letter from Anton, it was just a goof, he was
> being conned. Period. So why would the con artists bitch about being
> conned or expect anyone to trust them when they admit to loving the Idea
of
> conning people?
Haha, I remember this argument.
You can't choose your fans. The fans of LaVey, regardless of their titles,
chose him.
A true con artist would get a more tangible result than just being able to
say "He's a rube"
I've never known anyone who achieved this or a higher degree of commercial
success and did not loathe their fans, I doubt LaVey was any different.
Jews dressed up as Nazis Bwahaha. It just amused him.
TT
Lisa
He "may." Astouding evidence you have there.
<< I can even use your kind of no-brain illogic and "prove" that LaVey took his
very name from Lin's own character and self-nickname.>>
Wrong. Only you see this type of thing as "PROOF!" of anything.
::snip speculation about LaVey's reading habits::
<<Or seeing Carter's bastardized Latin is what Tony actually did and as usual,
copied it. LaVey is known for copying other's ideas. Lin never did that unless
he OPENLY wrote collaborations.>>
So, let's recap the game so far, just to clear things up:
Lin Carter + French Anthropologists + incorrect Latin grammar + Fish-people
from the Sirius system + anonymous Mexican citizens + "ANTON ZARNAK" +
"linguistics experts" + Poodles sez it's so, so that makes it SO =
::insert drumroll here:: Equals the fact that Phyllis and her "Dark Doctrines"
were seminal material pounced upon by Anton LaVey, and used relentlessly
throughout everything he ever said and did, world without end, amen.
Ryan: <<The CoS has never trashed me, or tried to hack my website, or done
anything against me whatsoever. The Secret Occult Spies of Kevin Filan and
Company never did anything to me whatsoever.>>
<<Well, you are not Michael Aquino - you are - nobody. No threat to them.>>
Take a bow, Ryan! You too have reached the feared and envied status of a
"nobody": joining such luminaries as Kevin, Victor, Harry Lime, Lupo (IIRC) and
even my humble self. It's not every day you attain such an honor!
Ryan: <<one of the first discussions was about LaVey, and you stated you did
not think he was a klippoth. Now he is. Seeing as how he's dead, he certainly
can't have accumulated klippoth points after he was dead? (Did he come in a
dream with Saddam?)>>
<<The egroup existed long after he was dead - so his aliveness or deadness has
nothing to do with anything. >>
Ryan, you should know better by now! The facts are only relevant to the case if
you're "brain-dead," and history is in a continual state of flux! Why, it's
sort of like that old Star Trek episode "City on the Edge of Forever" where
Kirk, Spock and McCoy end up jumping through this time portal back to the
1940s, and then Joan Collins shows up, almost altering the outcome of WW2....
it's just -like- that, I tell you. Phyllis has her very own miniature
time-portal in her spare bedroom and she jumps through and rearranges the past
any old way she likes, PERIOD.
<< but the fact that you lie to your own members and everyone else about things
that didn't exist until after LaVey had been around shows a rather distinct
klippothic touch to you.>>
<< I don't lie about anything. I could show you reams of letters - but of
course, that wouldn't prove a thing. You are "whatever.">>
Of course! Ryan is a "nobody" now. He is Unperson.
But one could be forgiven for wondering why she'd hesitate to show anyone
anything, she who loves to post private correspondance on webpages.
<<You are a shit disturber that never even gave other intellectuals a chance to
chat
with you. >>
Translation: "You REFUSED to accept my version of events/ideas/etc. without
question!" Sheesh.
<< Btw, don't take this seriously, I'm just having fun.>>
<<Sure. And Egan thinks I have "witchy power" and is scared of me. Sure. And
Egan considers you like a son. Sure. Right.>>
::I accidently emit a literal shout of laughter::
"BE AFRAID, Ryan, be very afraid! EGAN, laughingstock of the entire Internet
#1, finds me scary. He does, and YOU should TOO! Egan gives me VALIDITY! Egan
takes me SERIOUSLY! HEAR ME ROAR! Await my most fearsome ZONK!"
Ah, where else can you laugh so hard for free!?
L.
*********
"What you fail to realize is that your pompous grandstanding doesn't impress
us. And if this is the best you can do, you have a lot to learn. Fortunately,
classes are regularly taught on alt.satanism, feel free to attend."
- DevilzOwn, ac8745dd.0208231404.63380a0 @posting.google.com
tim jordan
Please see inside text:
>>That's something I've found interesting when it was discussed in the past
I wonder if Harry Lime/Tim Jordan has some thoughts concerning this
analysis.<<
Okie dokie. From my ''unprofessional'' perspective, Tani suffers from the
classic form of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In Tani's case, rather
than citing individual incidents that demonstrate her suffering from NPD,
I'll let each reader come to their own conclusions.
NPD is easy to recognize: One trait missing from the person with NPD is the
absolute lack of self-awareness. Any real life weakness or foible is firmly
repressed to darkest corners of the psyche -- she just either filters it out
or makes outrageous claims of conspiratorial collusion of multitudinous
enemies. In reality, the NPD's personality is created by recurrent lies and
self-deceit.
Folks that suffer from NPD use most of their conscious energy to create this
persona. Everything is devoted to the projection and maintenance of a
falseity, thereby, guaranteeing that they can be the center of attention --
either through admiration, approval, acknowledgement, adulation, and fear.
The narcissist can only devote their energy to sources that are easy and
quick with the emotional payouts and she uses grandiose claims to enjoy the
addictive limelight.
Pathological narcissism's etiology has two developmental paths: either
severe abuse during childhood (sexual, physical, and/or psychological) or
the direct result of the child being idolized and spoiled by his parents.
Not knowing much about Tani's background, it's difficult for me to make an
educated guess. My gut tells me that it's the former and not the latter.
Every narcissist that I've encountered has deep seated feelings of
inadequacy, masochistic desires to be punished, a variable sense of
self-worth (depending how their being ego stroked), and an overwhelming
sense of being a fake. While they might not acknowledge these feelings,
there are many tell tale signs exhibited in the NPD's behavior traits of
denying reality and her lack of empathy for others. Eventually, the
narcissist develops persecutory delusions and withdrawals or opts for being
abusive to well wishers and loved ones. Many NPD's suffer from obsessive
compulsive disorders which reflect their repetitive and often paranoid
thought processes.
Ultimately, the narcissist is afraid of her true self and constantly tries
to delusionally reinvent herself. She feels no pain and never experiences
true love. This is truly pathetic.
Regards,
Harry Lime, M.D. (Mentally Deficient)
http://www.harrylimetv.com
tim jordan
Please see inside text:
> >
> > Funny how Tani pulls stuff out of her ass isn't it?
>
> Well Harry, we must resign ourselves to fate. We DO NOT KNOW, and
> will NEVER KNOW, and CANNOT know, and thus will NOT SEE what is CLEAR,
> we are the TONE-DEAF trying to HEAR the MUSIC, the MUSIC Harry, can
> YOU hear it?
You bet I do. I've been heeled! Hallejuliah, baby!
>
> >You'll note these
> > alleged quotes read just like Tani's usual writing style sans the
swearing
> > and constant use of the caps button -- odd no? She's just a 24-karat
kook,
> > pure and simple.
>
> I wasn't sure who was saying what on that letter/thread. Although
> apparently I've reached ad hominem lows, being able to read Latin
> means I don't know how to have fun. HAVING FUN Harry, I DO NOT KNOW,
> and will NEVER KNOW, and CANNOT know, thus will not SEE what IS FUN, a
> GROUP NOT about LAVEY, NO, that's NOT FUN, I will HAVE FUN by NOT
> TALKING about LAVEY. (YET I will INVOKE LaVey like a TALISMAN, a
> TALISMAN, Harry, LAVEY, LAVEY, LAVEY, LAVEY). I feel the power
> beating within my breast as I invoke his infernal name. I should be
> hitting Super-Saiyan Aryanjutsu mode any second now.
Praise be to Anton, I feel the Boundless Darkness in my arse.
> How's your show going, as long as we are chatting? Was it Victor or
> Lupo who wanted to be on there? I was wondering if you had the chance
> to have them on as a guest. If you have, let me know how it went and
> everything else. Just remember to keep your gloves up Harry, there
> isn't a punch coming at you now, but it's COMING SOON! Lol, lol, lol,
> lol.
Thanks for asking. It's going pretty well. Vic hasn't been to Portland
recently so he hasn't been on my disgusting little show. Unlike Shaw, I've
had my ass kicked numerous times. But those Zonks are missing me every time.
If you get down here to PDX, let me know and I'll have you as a guest.
Regards,
Harry Lime
http://www.harrylimetv.com/
Sir Chaos
> 1. Anton Zarnak SSS 1950's.
> 2. Zarnak IS Lin. Stories are NOW published in a collection, no longer
> hidden.
> 3. Lin and Smith wrote many stories together.
> 4. Howard (pre Anton) knew Smith and was interested in all things hinting of
> occult.
> 5. Of all the things Anton mentioned, he conveniently left out any and all
> things he did, or said, with Smith.
>
And therefore LaVey exclusively used the word "Satanis"?
I think not.
> I refer to his movie.... I had that card.... There is no way to prove...
> Anton Zarnak yadda yadda
It is easy to prove that "No, the word Satan-IS was used by LaVey
exclusively" is just plain flat-out stupid and desperately wrong. All
one has to do is crack open a certain well-known book compiled by him.
> You were equally always loathed by us, Chaos.
Yes, yes, we lied to one another quite a bit in the "good old
days".
> ANTON ZARNAK blah blah YOUR org **SQUEAL**
I do not represent the Church of Satan and you know it. Since
when did I ask you about some wacky author and his story characters?
> You LaVeyans blah blah blah
Your buddy "Ole Pustule" has whined for years now about the
ambiguousness of "LaVeyan theology", has already repeatedly pointed
out that belief is okay, but worship is not, etc. Funny you don't
quite listen to, or understand, the pustule growing on your own ass
either.
We're a pretty diverse lot, us "LaVeyans". Good luck with your
ongoing quest to pigeonhole us. You can whine and gibber and toss
random misconceptions around all you want, it makes no difference. In
the bigger scheme of things we make sense, and as anyone with a
functional brain can tell you, that sure has YOU beat.
> Our group is to-date the biggest Satanic-realm org out there.
O no, SCISM is the biggest "Satanic organization" out there. Most
ancient, too. Or haven't you heard? SCISM does everything cool. We
even keep an eye on Curio.
> ...LaVeyan.... LaVeyan.... LaVeyan blah blah.... ...bother...
What part of "I don't care" do you not understand?
It's about time to clean your "depends", Icky Sticky. Nobody
gives a shit except you.
It's about time you shut your yap.
-Sir Chaos
--
"Wrong number, you lick spittle, faker with a facade of a life and a
porno head to boot."
- Tani Jantsang
RyanS2
He very well could have. Not having access to the inner-secrets of
LaVey's brain, I cannot confirm or deny what he may have, or may not
have read. What does this have to do with anything?
>By the
> way Ryan, Carter's nick was ANTON ZARNAK. He provably had that in 1950's;
> provably.
Okay, let's grant this premise. What does the conclusion entail?
>Consider this, two of LaVey's favorite names: Szandor?
> Carnacki? Combine them: Zarnak. I often wondered if LaVey got Anton
> Szandor from Anton Zarnak - and yeah I asked someone in these groups once.
> My question got nipped in the bud "We have nothing to do with that."
> Abrupt.
I can imagine so. When James Randi gets asked to disprove
telekenetics he also gives abrupt answers. Personally, I always
thought that LaVey took his name from the Abominable Dr. Phibes, the
main character being Anton Phibes. In fact, if I remember correctly,
Anton loved it so much he claimed the movie based upon the book was
really based upon him.
The name "Szandor" can be seen as a pun on "Stanton", and to give
legitimacy to his Romanian-gypsy descent claim. Maybe he was a
surfing fan of the 60's and took his name from Miklos Szandor Dora.
Both explanations are very ad hoc.
> Carter didn't speak a word of Latin.
Again, you don't have to convince me of that, I'm well aware.
>You might have this the other way
> around for all I know since Anton Zarnak was alive and in print in the
> 1950's and so were those cards with the Zarnak name on them.
>It, the "satan-AS" pronounciation, was in
> movies, also. If you hear someone in a movie saying that, in English you'd
> spell it precisely like that. ah ah ah, 3 times in the word.
What movie? Any specific movie you are referencing here? From a
movie you could get "Satanas", "Satanis" or "Satanus", since most
people are aware of "dominus" being a Latin word for "Lord", (or at
least, anyone with a standard Catholic upbringing or familiarity with
Catholicism), why would they spell it the way only Anton did?
> Well, then I guess they sing the BIRD MARIA in their Catholic Masses? Ave
> Maria. Ava Maria, also - I've seen it both ways. BIRD Maria?
You mean the Catholic Mass is done in Spanish down in Mexico? I
thought it was done in Latin? Perhaps the Mexicans suffered form a
terrible case of "ego, qui multas Linguas didicerim, Latine haud
scio"?
> Or seeing Carter's bastardized Latin is what Tony actually did and as usual,
> copied it. LaVey is known for copying other's ideas. Lin never did that
> unless he OPENLY wrote collaborations.
Where? What bastardized Latin by Carter are you referencing? Where
specifically does Carter use "Satanas"?
> I have many doubts, including doubts about where Tony got the name. See
> above. Szandor (pronounced Zandor) and Carnacki = Zarnak.
See rebuttle's above. How about saying that LaVey took William Hope
Hodgson's "Thomas Carnacki the Ghost-Finder", (1910), as from where he
got his name?
>like a raging bull
> against every other occult current around at the time and even bitching
> against the women's movement for shit's sakes. Catch a clue, this is a
> no-brainer.
I've read his work, (remember, I'm the one that knows how he uses
"Satanas" instead of "Satanis"?), and according to Aquino, LaVey never
engaged any of these groups until they first started talking bad about
him. Aquino's comment that "by attracting the attention of the high
priest of satan as their mortal enemy, groups could legitimize their
claim to supremacy", (paraphrased), is very valid.
>Ask > Aquino about Bruce Ithier for a classic sample of a COS Priest.
You're switching claims here. You can't talk about the followers of
LaVey in the same breath as LaVey himself. You can't take the action
of a group member for an action of the group leader. I have no doubt
that many groups didn't like him, but this doesn't correlate to
anything I was discussing or critiquing. LaVey's social skills,
dinner manners, dancing styles, and political affiliations are not the
subject of this discussion.
> He wrote "The Satanist"
I know who Wheatley is, that's not the question. The question is
"What passage did Wheatley use in his 1960 novel that has 'Satanas' in
it?"
>What would you
> like to do, Carbon date the SSS card I still have from Lin? Lmao.
Sure, RCD tests are rounded up to the tens, give or take five years,
we could get a fairly accurate timeline on the writing of those
letters.
>It's due to his negative shit
> that Michelet was forgotton.
Michelet got trashed after history proved him wrong. Hell, he wasn't
even accepted back in his own time period as being a reliable
historian on *anything* related to religion. Even people like the
French scholar Gabriel Monod wrote that Michelet couldn't be trusted
on the issue. After Norman Cohn's book, "Europe's Inner Demons",
Michelet was seen more as an embarrasment than anything else. He was
literally put in the grave by Kieckhefer's "European Witch Trials:
Their Foundation in Popular and Learned Culture, 1300-1500". Mention
Michelet's La Sorciere to any medieval scholar and they're going to
start giggling.
People's Commissar
new Catholic College in FL called the Ave Maria College.
Where did Lin, on those SSS cards, get SATANAS as a spelling for Satan? Some
pseudo scholars who "always HAVE to be right" and would never merely accept
letters about this as any kind of proof, or the actual card, would contend
that "Satanas" is incorrect Latin and that only lil old LaVey used it; as
such, anyone else (anywhere in the world, imagine it) that used the
"Satanas" spelling would have had to have read lil ol LaVey's bilge. Oh? Is
that so! Lol.
It's on the SSS cards and they predate LaVey. Oh, but the problem with that
is it's not in any kind of "published" form for the pseudo-scholars! One
can't exactly carbon date the little card I still have. Lin had the Baphomet
on those cards. The Baphomet was in a book as we all know. But the pseudo
scholars think that anyone that used the wrong Latin spelling of "Satanas"
just had to have read Anton's bilge first. OH? Ha ha!
Well, where did the spelling "Satanas" come from? Heh - FROM HERE, at least
this is one example not all that hard to find:
1634, a written document supposedly a pact between Urbain Grandier and 7
devils was introduced as evidence in a court case against him. The devil's
names are these: SATANAS, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Elimi, Leviathan, and
Astaroth. The pact is written in conventional Latin contractions. The actual
document, written backwards with the signature of the "devils" right on it,
reads exactly like this:
"Nos pptens Lcfr juvnte Stn Blzbb Lvtn Elm atq Astarot alisq hdie habems
accept pact foederis Urb Grandr qui nobis e. et huic pollicem amorem mul
florem virginum decus mon hon volup et op. fornicab triduo ebriet illi cara
er. Nobs offret semel in ano sag sig sub peds coculcab sa Ecclae et nobs
rogat ipsius erut; q pact vivet an vig felix in tra hom et ven postea int
nos maled D.
"Fact in inf int coss daem Satanas Belzebub Lcfr Elimi Leviathan Astaroth
"Sig pos mag diab et daem princp dom Blbrth scrpt"
Furthermore: "The signatures of Satanas, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Elimi,
Leviathan and Astaroth are subscribed." (Robbins "Encyclopedia of Witchcraft
and Demonology," 1959).
Now that this is thoroughly out of the way, like so much dogshit that "the
LaVey club" keep throwing in front of our feet...heh heh, check this
possibility out:
Lin's character ANTON ZARNAK, invented at least in the early 1950's, is a
very Dennis Wheatley type character, an occult expert and investigator but
he is mysterious, powerful, he performs high magic. It is said that Zarnak
is like a combination of von Helsing and Jules de Grandin. Some say Zarnak
is like "Dr. Strange." Anyone that knew about Dennis Wheatley's life and
read the tales he wrote would more likely recognize him since Zarnak will
use black magic to fight black magic. The real Dennis Wheatley was in
British Intelligence before he wrote his book "The Satanist," in 1960. He
also wrote "The Devil Rides Out" which was made into a cult classic movie
"The Devil's Bride" with Christopher Lee. The kinds of adventurous high
black magic performed by both the good guys and bad guys in Dennis
Wheatley's tales fit the character of Anton Zarnak. In "the Devil Rides Out"
the protagonist actually reverses time with a high black magic spell. The
Anton Zarnak tales are now published and Lin wrote some of them in the
1950's, before LaVey changed his name to Anton LaVey.
But where did LaVey also get a hankering for the names Szandor and Carnacki?
From Zarnak? Carnacki + Szandor = Zarnak? It is a provable fact that Lin
used this first.
Even more to the point: where did LaVey get the idea to ever use the
Baphomet and link it up to Satanas or Satan in any form when, in fact, the
Baphomet is a sigil of Sophia and the word "Baphomet" itself spells Sophia
when it is decoded? Well, LaVey didn't know that about Sophia; that's for
sure. Well, could LaVey have seen this stuff from Lin or from someone who
had a calling card? LaVey was always nosing into all things occult, even
when he got the door slammed in his face by some people who saw him an a
non-serious charlatan. Those cards were handed around at least in 1963. It
says N. Zarnak on it.
It it a good theory based on the same kind of inferential reasoning that
pseudo scholars use, to assume that LaVey got "Szandor and Carnacki" from
the name ZARNAK and after having seen SSS cards with the word spelled
"Satanas" and the Baphomet on them, decided to use SATANAS and link it to
the Baphomet. Obviously, the spelling Satanas was used by at least one
person, provably, almost 400 years before LaVey used it. It is a proven fact
that LaVey just took other people's stuff. Lin never did that. Lin was very
creative.
The SSS was the only group of friends that linked the Baphomet directly up
to the word "Satan" in any form, and the form was Satanas. Prior to that it
was well known to be not only a symbol of Sophia, but the word "Baphomet"
itself IS "Sophia" by use of a Hebrew code. In any other context, the symbol
pertains to Lilith, Samael and Azazel (the Goat) to combine as the Great
Beast CHIVA, 666 in real occult lodge systems, or Leviathan. Leviathan,
Lilith, Samael and Azazel are not Satan, and the goat pictured in the
pentacle IS Azazel in that system of occultism - this is the system also
used by the Temple of Lylyth. In another system, the Goat represents Pan and
the Arcadian Old Religion.
"- wolf -" <wo...@blazingangles.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3dd33c56$0$15030$edfa...@dread14.news.tele.dk...
> "Victor LeNettoyeurT" <exponent_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:YWVvbg==.fb78f72c7d674aae27afb149ba7b377b@1037223509.cotse.net...
> > > Maybe I just consider you uninteresting.
> >
> > Wow, another completely irrelevant response with all the meaty issues
> > neatly snipped away. I'm impressed. You been taking lessons from John H
> > Shaw; or is this the source of his expertise in usenet obfuscation in
the
> > flesh?
>
> No. I simply decided not to find, scan, and upload copies of those
letters,
> because not even a written statement from Anton LaVey would had convinced
> you anyway. You don't mean enough to me to make me bother trying.
>
> - wolf -
>
>
People's Commissar
seeing one of Lin's cards. I know where Lin got it. See below, dear.
LMAO - oh god, this never fails.
NOW, Ryan, you can shut up - but thanks for inspiring me to FIND OUT where
he got it from :)
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > Satan-IS? SSS used Satan-AS. What did Crowley use? How about
Wheatley,
> > more to the point and on target for Lin who was VERY familiar with that.
>
> No, LaVey used "Satanas".
Yeah, he STOLE it along with everything else.
People's Commissar
"Sir Chaos" <sirc...@wolfenet.com> wrote in message
news:3dc2bc99.02111...@posting.google.com...
> Ooey Gooey stammers:
> > 1. Anton Zarnak SSS 1950's.
> > 2. Zarnak IS Lin. Stories are NOW published in a collection, no longer
> > hidden.
> > 3. Lin and Smith wrote many stories together.
> > 4. Howard (pre Anton) knew Smith and was interested in all things
hinting of
> > occult.
> > 5. Of all the things Anton mentioned, he conveniently left out any and
all
> > things he did, or said, with Smith.
> >
> > What are the chances... yabber yabber yabber
>
> And therefore LaVey exclusively used the word "Satanis"?
No, he used it probably after he saw it on one of those little cards WITH
the Baphomet on it. He called his movie Satanis. But you all insist he
used Satanas - well, with the Baphomet? I know where he saw it first. Now
you can dwell on that, obsess on that, or just go your own way.
Yabber yabber - you LaVeyans really do that the best everytime you fuss with
other organizations. Want something to eat? How about some jello?
Sir Chaos
> ...Lin... gabber gabber...
I don't care about Lin, or where Ol' Anton may have gotten his
name from. For all I care he spelled his name by randomly grabbing
letters out of a scrabble bag. It makes no difference and it has
nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Do keep up.
[**Big Ol' SNIP**]
As I originally said:
> > And therefore LaVey exclusively used the word "Satanis"?
> No...
And there we have it. Good show.
We have come a full circle.
You came up with this garbage:
> No, the word Satan-IS was used by LaVey exclusively. "IS." Not "AS." that
> doesn't prove a fucking thing except that Lin uses Satan-AS.
And you were ---Wrong---.
Nice try though. Next time, check the book you would be
referencing.
It's about time you shut your yap.
-Sir Chaos
--
"The one thing which true evil cannot abide is the mediocrity and
banality of that which would act in its name."
- S.M. Cadfannan
People's Commissar
do tell. That's about the speed on here.
Hey, at least I found out where Lin got the idea to use that from. I don't
know much about Saints - but apparently that kind of stuff reads like
stories from another time. Did you ever read Lin's CA Smith collaborations
about Hyperborea and other such places? They have books on this now,
Professor Price even wrote scripture for it and/or did real exegesis on this
as if it was like real stories of Saints or real religion. Serious stuff
too, he did. But why put the symbol and word for Sophia in cahoots with
something that sounds satanic? Well, some convoluted ideas go into that and
I DO NOT get it. It has to do with the Old Testment and the scapegoat
Azazel (NOT Pan) - that Azazel is like a victorious angel (the name means
that) but victorious over what? Victorious over evil!) - aka THE Christ.
Christ IS the scapegoat. Ooook. Now, Sophia is seen a the mother of THE
Christ. The people who originallyh used Baphomet elevated Mary (aka Sophia)
as the Queen of Heaven. Well, scratch my head. How does this die into
Satanas? "They were heretics." Ok. ..................huh? Anyway,
Satanas was used in the 1600's. Provably so. Spelled that way too. Lin
knew NO Latin so no biggie, I wonder if there is a pun in that thing.
cheers.... I didn't hear the warning about the latest terrorist threats.
oh brother.
"Taras Tymoshenko" <ta...@taras.com> wrote in message
news:e6hB9.43$_6....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
People's Commissar
can't grasp Saint stories and never really could get INTO Lin's stories
about other places and times since they read "weird." I couldn't get into
it.
Here: this will be up with our 1972 document which just explains some
things that objectively happened (the original had a lot more jpegs on it
and letter quotes that, imo, were really irrelevant and got into some damned
personal shit (such as the portion of the letter from Shaggai I quoted you -
which you just don't accept. Fine, since there really is no way to carbon
date letters or calling cards and you don't accept such "non published"
things as proofs. Fine! But you just kicked the cos in the butt and opened
up a whole new possibility. See, when Lin did it, no one saw the stuff
except people IN on it, he did NOT make a Big Production of it at all and it
was meant for fun. When ALV did it, well, he pissed a LOT of people off.
Where did Lin, on those SSS cards, get SATANAS as a spelling for Satan?
had one of those calling cards? LaVey was always nosing into all things
occult, even when he got the door slammed in his face by some people who saw
him an a non-serious charlatan. Those cards were handed around at least in
1963. It says N. Zarnak on it.
It it a good theory based on the same kind of inferential reasoning that
pseudo scholars use, to assume that LaVey got "Szandor and Carnacki" from
the name ZARNAK and after having seen SSS cards with the word spelled
"Satanas" and the Baphomet on them, decided to use SATANAS and link it to
the Baphomet. Obviously, the spelling Satanas was used by at least one
person, provably, almost 400 years before LaVey used it. It is a proven
fact that LaVey just took other people's stuff. Lin never did that. Lin
was very creative.
The SSS was the only group of friends that linked the Baphomet directly up
to the word "Satan" in any form, and the form was Satanas. Prior to that it
was well known (at least in esoteric circles) to be not only a symbol of
Sophia, but the word "Baphomet" itself IS "Sophia" by use of a Hebrew code.
(I show this all on website, btw; it's not esoteric anymore). In any other
context, the symbol pertains to Lilith, Samael and Azazel (the Goat) to
combine as the Great Beast CHIVA, 666 in real occult lodge systems, or
Leviathan. Leviathan, Lilith, Samael and Azazel are not Satan, and the goat
pictured in the pentacle IS Azazel in that system of occultism - this is the
system also used by the Temple of Lylyth. In another system, the Goat
represents Pan and the Arcadian Old Religion. Saying that all these things
are "Satan" (implication the CHRISTIAN DEVIL) is like saying that Bush and
Usamma are the same people because they are both leaders. These things are
not Satan.
Now, Ryan, you COULD do me a big service and perhaps find the damned PUN in
that crazy SSS expression that he did use because I'm sure someone back then
told him that his Latin SUCKED. His scripture sucked too when he tried
writing that way. He told someone where he got the idea, but there is no
explanation I see in the rest of the letter and I don't have the letter from
him TO Shaggai - only the one Shaggai wrote to Wayne. Lin admittedly lost
thousands of copies of things, including diagrams for "rituals." I have
quite a lot of this still.
See in.
"RyanS2" <ryans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fa9b259.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > Did it ever occur to you that LaVey may have read Carter?
>
> He very well could have. Not having access to the inner-secrets of
> LaVey's brain, I cannot confirm or deny what he may have, or may not
> have read. What does this have to do with anything?
Well, see above. It proves that Lin did NOT get it from LaVey - and no one
else using Lin's thing did either. I was told that this is where Lin got
it. That's par for the course, he knew this kind of thing. I can't read a
WORD of that Latin, however. But it's verbatim. Word for word. I was
given the translation but fuck it - it's not important.
>
> >By the
> > way Ryan, Carter's nick was ANTON ZARNAK. He provably had that in
1950's;
> > provably.
>
> Okay, let's grant this premise. What does the conclusion entail?
Well, let's make a Ryan conclusion. Where did Anton get Anton from and why
was he so into Szandor and Carnacki? Where did he get the idea in the first
place to put a sigil wholly unrelated to anything satanic, on a book with
the satan name on it? He was NOT the first person to do this.
>
> thought that LaVey took his name from the Abominable Dr. Phibes, the
> main character being Anton Phibes. In fact, if I remember correctly,
> Anton loved it so much he claimed the movie based upon the book was
> really based upon him.
Date please?
>
> The name "Szandor" can be seen as a pun on "Stanton", and to give
> legitimacy to his Romanian-gypsy descent claim. Maybe he was a
> surfing fan of the 60's and took his name from Miklos Szandor Dora.
> Both explanations are very ad hoc.
Maybe, maybe. Yabba yabba yabba [tm Chaos]
>
> > Carter didn't speak a word of Latin.
>
> Again, you don't have to convince me of that, I'm well aware.
How about figuring out just what PUN might be in those three words - three
words that I still can not seem to get right whenever I refer to them.
Selectus Societas or Societas Selectus. I never remember. At least I found
out WHY he put a Baphomet on a card with the "satan" word on it, tho I don't
quite understand all of it.
>
>
> What movie? Any specific movie you are referencing here? From a
> movie you could get "Satanas", "Satanis" or "Satanus", since most
> people are aware of "dominus" being a Latin word for "Lord", (or at
> least, anyone with a standard Catholic upbringing or familiarity with
> Catholicism), why would they spell it the way only Anton did?
Plenty of them. Go find them yourself - it's irrelevant now. 1600's is
early enough. It's where Lin got it. Satanas is a proper name,
apparently. Ave Satanas would then be as correct as Ave Maria in the minds
of most people wanting to use it. .
>
> > Well, then I guess they sing the BIRD MARIA in their Catholic Masses?
Ave
> > Maria. Ava Maria, also - I've seen it both ways. BIRD Maria?
>
> You mean the Catholic Mass is done in Spanish down in Mexico? I
> thought it was done in Latin? Perhaps the Mexicans suffered form a
> terrible case of "ego, qui multas Linguas didicerim, Latine haud
> scio"?
You mean, you never heard of the Ave Maria? Shame on you. It's the most
beautiful song ever written. Both versions, the Bach-Gounod and the
Shubert. I'm listening to it right now. See, Ryan, you always twist your
way around shit and well, I see not how this profits you in the least.
"Good riddance" [tm Dave].
>
> > Or seeing Carter's bastardized Latin is what Tony actually did and as
usual,
> > copied it. LaVey is known for copying other's ideas. Lin never did that
> > unless he OPENLY wrote collaborations.
>
> Where? What bastardized Latin by Carter are you referencing? Where
> specifically does Carter use "Satanas"?
What? On the calling cards. What? Where the hell do you think I got the
name SSS from? I was never a member of that but the SWS split off from
that. His letters (a few of them only) and calling card. What kind of
scholar are you that you don't know what you are talking about in context?
>
> I've read his work, (remember, I'm the one that knows how he uses
> "Satanas" instead of "Satanis"?), and according to Aquino, LaVey never
> engaged any of these groups until they first started talking bad about
> him. Aquino's comment that "by attracting the attention of the high
> priest of satan as their mortal enemy, groups could legitimize their
> claim to supremacy", (paraphrased), is very valid.
Quite franklin, Aquino is wrong. LaVey was around long before Aquino joined
the COS. And he supremely turned women's movement and witches OFF. Aquino
can say all he likes to discredit Professor Bonewitz too - the fact is,
Bonewitz was gone before Aquino ever joined the COS. So, aside from
Aquino's accuracy as to what went on that he KNEW about - one must consider
what went on that he did NOT know about - and for a fact - that was quite a
lot of things.
>
> >Ask > Aquino about Bruce Ithier for a classic sample of a COS Priest.
>
> You're switching claims here. You can't talk about the followers of
> LaVey in the same breath as LaVey himself. You can't take the action
> of a group member for an action of the group leader.
I certainly can when Bruce sat in LaVey's home probably more than Gilmore
ever did and was told what to do by LaVey every step of the way.
I have no doubt
> that many groups didn't like him, but this doesn't correlate to
> anything I was discussing or critiquing. LaVey's social skills,
> dinner manners, dancing styles, and political affiliations are not the
> subject of this discussion.
This is not a discussion.
>
> > He wrote "The Satanist"
>
> I know who Wheatley is, that's not the question. The question is
> "What passage did Wheatley use in his 1960 novel that has 'Satanas' in
> it?"
See above for hard proof for ya. There is also this tho LaVey could not
read Old English:
Several references in canterbury tales
" That none of them shall come into this place?'
'Yes' quoth the angel; 'many a millioun:'
And unto Satanas he led him down.
'And now hath Satanas,' said he, 'a tail
Broader than of a carrack<1> is the sail.
Hold up thy tail, thou Satanas,' quoth he,
'Shew forth thine erse, and let the friar see
Where is the nest of friars in this place.'
>
> >What would you
> > like to do, Carbon date the SSS card I still have from Lin? Lmao.
>
> Sure, RCD tests are rounded up to the tens, give or take five years,
> we could get a fairly accurate timeline on the writing of those
> letters.
Problem - I have xeroxes of every single thing. Some of it hand written,
but still xeroxes. The only question I had was the Dale Seago stuff - so I
asked him to read the document and comment. He said it was accurate and
that is what happened - but he claimed he was NOT acting as anyone's spy.
He wrote the letters attributed to him. I only got hold of the Dale letters
for instance, in the 1990's. He confirmed them, however. I have no way of
knowing when the xeroxes were made, or if they are xeroxes OF xeroxes. So
that IS a problem. But you know, by using that kind of reasoning, there is
no way to know if LaVey actually wrote any letters to Aquino that are
presented in his book! He either has copies of them as I do (errors and
typos and all which are FIXED in the document "1972") or whatever.
>
> >It's due to his negative shit
> > that Michelet was forgotton.
>
> Michelet got trashed after history proved him wrong. Hell, he wasn't
> even accepted back in his own time period as being a reliable
> historian on *anything* related to religion. Even people like the
> French scholar Gabriel Monod wrote that Michelet couldn't be trusted
> on the issue. After Norman Cohn's book, "Europe's Inner Demons",
> Michelet was seen more as an embarrasment than anything else. He was
> literally put in the grave by Kieckhefer's "European Witch Trials:
> Their Foundation in Popular and Learned Culture, 1300-1500". Mention
> Michelet's La Sorciere to any medieval scholar and they're going to
> start giggling.
Cohn is in the category of "denial propaganda." Of course you'd trash it
due to the way he wrote it. But when you COMBINE Michelet with Robbins'
documented accounts - it takes on a whole new picture and a good one at
that - one that even makes logical sense given the nature of humans treated
as serfs and the fact that the Papacy was a military might and tyranny. .
Taras Tymoshenko
> Please do tell everyone about the house, L7 and Barton on the floor.
Please
> do tell. That's about the speed on here.
Haha. I really don't know (or care) what went on there.
It wasn't them that said that, either.
> Hey, at least I found out where Lin got the idea to use that from. I
don't
> know much about Saints - but apparently that kind of stuff reads like
> stories from another time. Did you ever read Lin's CA Smith
collaborations
> about Hyperborea and other such places? They have books on this now,
> Professor Price even wrote scripture for it and/or did real exegesis on
this
> as if it was like real stories of Saints or real religion. Serious stuff
> too, he did. But why put the symbol and word for Sophia in cahoots with
> something that sounds satanic? Well, some convoluted ideas go into that
and
> I DO NOT get it. It has to do with the Old Testment and the scapegoat
> Azazel (NOT Pan) - that Azazel is like a victorious angel (the name means
> that) but victorious over what? Victorious over evil!) - aka THE Christ.
> Christ IS the scapegoat. Ooook. Now, Sophia is seen a the mother of THE
> Christ. The people who originallyh used Baphomet elevated Mary (aka
Sophia)
> as the Queen of Heaven. Well, scratch my head. How does this die into
> Satanas? "They were heretics." Ok. ..................huh? Anyway,
> Satanas was used in the 1600's. Provably so. Spelled that way too. Lin
> knew NO Latin so no biggie, I wonder if there is a pun in that thing.
>
> cheers.... I didn't hear the warning about the latest terrorist threats.
> oh brother.
I've heard of Lin Carter, but I really don't know the origin of "Satanas"
etc.
TT