Himmler challenge update
David
'Himmler Posen speech' challenge, namely to have the tape of the speech
analysed, pay for the analysis if it proves the tape genuine, or watch
with satisfaction as Nizkor pays for the analysis if the tape is not
proven genuine.
On 22 February 1999 I asked the National Archives whether the original
recording of Hitler's Posen speech could be made available.
I have today, 3 March, received the following faxed response at 21h22
GMT:
<begin quote>
This is in response to your inquiry of February 22, 1999, regarding the
Heinrich Himmler speeches made at Posen, Germany, on October 4, 1943.
Attached is a copy of pages 10 and 11 from the Select Audiovisual
Records list "Captured German Sound Recordings" that may be of interest.
The item circled contains a description of the speech described in your
inquiry. The speech was originally recordedon audiotape at the speed of
7ips in Posen, Germany. While we cannot make the original recording
available to you, we can provide you with a certified copy. If you
determine that a certified copy of the Himmler speech will meet your
needs and you would wish to purchase a copy, please see ordering
information on our Web site at
<http://www.nara.gov/nara/nn/nns/nnsm.html.
[Para saying how to contact the Motion Picture, Sound and Video
reference Staff]
From the desk of Charles de Arman
Librarian
Motion Pictures, Sound and Video Reference.
[End quote]
There was an enclosure indicating that the speech had been published in
IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals.
I tried to telephone Mr Armani but, unfortunately, it seems that the
library was closed (this was some 40 minutes after the fax arrived). I
will try again tomorrow.
Two issues are raised by the above.
First, the Archives are unwilling to release the original tape. They
are, however, willing to release a certified copy. One possible issue
here is the quality of the copy.
They state:
<begin quote>
The type of copying formats that can be provided from our archival
intermediate copies are:
Motion picture film (in 16mm and 35mm)
Videotape (both non-broadcast and broadcast quality)
Audiotape (both open reel or audiocassette)
To request broadcast quality motion picture film or videotape copies
made from our archival intermediate copies, please refer
to the instruction sheet How to Order Broadcast Quality Copies.
Broadcast quality copies are the very best, and oftentimes
expensive, images that can be made from an archival intermediate copy.
Such reproductions are used, for example, in
television and feature film productions. Work is performed by off-site
private vendor laboratories in cooperation with the
National Archives and Records Administration. Customers must select a
laboratory from a list provided by the National
Archives and Records Administration.
To request non-broadcast quality videotape (VHS and 3/4") from the
National Archives, please refer to the 2-page instruction
sheets How to Order Non-Broadcast Quality Video Copies. Non-broadcast
quality videotapes are fair to good copies that
are suitable for public and home presentation. To request sound
recordings from the National Archives, please refer to How to
Order Sound Recordings.
Procedures for ordering non-broadcast (or "viewing") copies through
vendors are identical to the procedures for ordering
broadcast quality copies. For more information about this process,
please see the 2-page instruction sheet describing How to
Order Broadcast Quality Copies.
To request sound recordings, see How to Order Sound Recordings.
To request stock film, see Stock Film Ordering Requirements.
Condition of originals: While the National Archives and Records
Administration makes every effort to provide the best quality
copy, some originals or copies of originals provided to a vendor may
exhibit physical defects due to fading, deterioration, poor
environmental storage conditions, or handling damage. Copies purchased
from us or from an approved vendor therefore may
show the same visual and/or audio defects. All copies of National
Archives records are purchased with the understanding that
they may not be returned for credit refunds, or exchanges.
Unsatisfactory reproductions must be returned within 30 days for
replacement. Such returns will be honored only if we have
made an error or the vendor processing or vendor transfer is faulty.
Returns will not be accepted if, in our judgment, the
defects are attributable to the condition of the original materials.
Please note that non-broadcast quality copies made by us are
purchased with the understanding that they may not be returned for
credit, refunds, or exchanges.
Videotapes can normally be made of any film in the collection.
"Broadcast quality" refers to meeting F.C.C. standards, which is
limited by the quality of the original film (which may include
scratches, splices, or other defects). "Non-broadcast quality" tapes
may contain a visible flicker but may be acceptable for study,
classroom, preview, or home viewing purposes only.
Audio tape will be copied onto either 1/4" open reel or standard audio
cassette tape. Some original recordings, such as
monitored German shortwave broadcasts, have poor or only fair sound.
While our laboratory may filter noise and correct
some defects, it does not attempt major enhancement of sound quality.
<end quote>
The problem is that if we are working from a copy, rather than the
original, there is a problem that we could get a 'false negative'. In
other words, the analysis may not prove that the Himmler speech is
authentic due to defects in the copy or due to the laboratory
'correcting' defects. Now, of course, this would be to my advantage
financially :). However, Nizkor could always claim that the analysis did
not give a fair test and that a negative finding was due to the analysis
working from a copy rather than from the original tape.
Second, the issue arises of who will pay for the certified copy. I have
no idea how much this costs -- I can telephone Armani tomorrow to try to
ascertain this. I suspect that this would be a matter for negotiation
between my lawyers and Nizkor's lawyers. At this stage I merely note
that it is in issue.
I would be most interested in any comments from Nizkor on the above,
particularly if anyone has any ideas for persuading the National
Archives to release the original tape for analysis. Someone --
presumably the librarian -- must have the authority to release that tape
and if the individual concerned could be persuaded of the historical
importance of conducting the test in such a way that nobody can make
claims about 'false negatives'. I'll have a go at them myself tomorrow,
but I'm merely an obscure nobody from distant England.
On a completely different point, I'd be very interested if anyone has
any ideas for a reference tape -- in other words a tape that we could
obtain and that is quite uncontroversially Himmler speaking. Clearly,
whatever tape we use would have to be accepted as 'genuine Himmler' not
only by myself and by Nizkor but also by the revisionists -- I might see
if I can get the views from various IHR people on this. (If any are
reading this in alt.revisionism, opinions would be much appreciated.)
Again, we want to avoid (a) charges of 'false negatives' from Nizkor
('the quality of the reference tape was so bad that it wasn't a fair
comparison') and (b) charges of 'that wasn't Himmler on the reference
tape -- it was done by the same actor who faked the Posen tape' from
revisionists. For that reason we need broad consensus on what would
constitute an acceptable tape.
I'd much appreciate any intelligent responses -- preferably just post
them to alt.revisionism so we can all see them. Anything emailed will,
as always, be treated as postable!
(Dr) David E Michael
Posted to alt.revisionism
Emailed to Ken McVay
Kenneth McVay OBC
David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>You may recall that I expressed an interest in taking the Nizkor
>'Himmler Posen speech' challenge, namely to have the tape of the speech
>analysed, pay for the analysis if it proves the tape genuine, or watch
>with satisfaction as Nizkor pays for the analysis if the tape is not
>proven genuine.
As I told you - I thought I had been clear - you must contact Mr.
Edeiken and come to an agreement with respect to this process.
Until you have done that, there seems little point in discussing the
matter further.
I am, given an agreement, prepared to sign a legally binding contract
at the University of London on May 7, or St. Anne's, Oxford, on the
14th.
--
The Nizkor Project-----------------------http://www.nizkor.org
Ken McVay, Director.ICQ 7015822. http://www.nizkor.org/~kmcvay
Pentium III: Big Brother Inside
David
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yale_f._edeiken
> Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> > http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=445979392 contains the
> > following response to the initial query:
> > "http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mcvay-ken/put-up-shut-up.html
> > "http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/edeiken-yale/put-up-shut-up.html
> > "If Mr. Edeiken will consent, he can handle the arrangements via email.
> > I am quite willing to update my original offer to Mr. Giwer and
> > conclude an agreement with you. If we can work out the details quickly
> > enough, we can sign a contract when I am in London in May."
> > What part of "[Mr. Edeiken] ...can handle the arrangements via email"
> > does David have difficulty comprehending?
> > Which part of "I am quite willing to update my original offer to Mr.
> > Giwer and conclude an agreement with you." seems to give David the most
> > trouble with respect to getting this show on the road?
>
> > Which part of "If we can work out the details quickly
> > enough, we can sign a contract when I am in London in May." does David
> > find incomprehensible?
> > Has David contacted Mr. Edeiken and negotiated an updated agreement?
> > No, he has not.
> > When he has, I will meet him in London, at the University of London,
> > on the 7th May, 1999, or at St. Anne's, Oxford on the 14th May, and
> > sign the contract.
> > Then we can deal with issues of interest with respect to dealing with
> > the tape and with voiceprints.
> > Unless, of course, there is some reason David does not wish to sign a
> > contract?
> I must say that I feel rather perplexed by Ken's response. He issues a
> challenge to have a tape analysed. I say that I'm interested and that I'll
> contact the owners of the tape to see if they'll let us analyse it and that
> I'll get back to Nizkor if they say 'no' to discuss what to do next.
That is becuase you were too much a twit to read the orginalchallenge.
> The
> owners say 'we won't let you analyse the original tape but we'll sell you a
> copy'. I inform McVay of this, and discuss some related issues, and his
> response is 'why haven't you concluded a contract with Mr Edeiken?' There
> is something slightly surreal about that.
Yes. That you were too much of a twit to read the original challenge.
> The key, methinks, is in Ken's last sentence: 'Unless, of course, there is
> some reason David does not wish to sign a contract?' Could it be that
> Nizkor don't want to have the tape analysed? Could it be that they want to
> scupper the whole challenge so that they can then blame me for it?
The key is that you did not bother to read the original challenge.
> I sent a cc of my last post to Edeiken and am now awaiting a response from
> him to the points that I raised in my initial post in this thread -- points
> with which McVay does not wish to face himself.
Which are details, ACCORDING TO THE ORIGINAL CHALLENGE, he
never wanted to deal with and AT THAT TIME asked me to do it.
Now, if you are finished posturing, running around like duck who was hit on
the head, and answer the challenge (which I suggest that, at long last, you read) in a
rational manner perhaps we can get on with business.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
David
were not prepared to release the original Himmler tapes but were
prepared to sell a certified copy thereof, and in which I discussed
issues arising from that, Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
> In article <36DDB8...@cableinet.co.uk>,
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >You may recall that I expressed an interest in taking the Nizkor
> >'Himmler Posen speech' challenge, namely to have the tape of the speech
> >analysed, pay for the analysis if it proves the tape genuine, or watch
> >with satisfaction as Nizkor pays for the analysis if the tape is not
> >proven genuine.
>
> As I told you - I thought I had been clear - you must contact Mr.
> Edeiken and come to an agreement with respect to this process.
>
> Until you have done that, there seems little point in discussing the
> matter further.
>
> I am, given an agreement, prepared to sign a legally binding contract
> at the University of London on May 7, or St. Anne's, Oxford, on the
> 14th.
>
> --
> The Nizkor Project-----------------------http://www.nizkor.org
> Ken McVay, Director.ICQ 7015822. http://www.nizkor.org/~kmcvay
> Pentium III: Big Brother Inside
Let history note that he also sent me the following e-mail, which he
chose not to post in alt.revisionism:
<begin quote>
Return-Path:
<kmc...@www.nizkor.org>
Delivered-To:
Dav...@cableinet.co.uk
Received:
(qmail 7127 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999
22:23:54 -0000
Received:
from unknown (HELO www.nizkor.org)
(198.96.119.205)
by tigers.cableinet.net with
SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 22:23:54 -0000
Received:
from localhost (1312 bytes) by www.nizkor.org
via
sendmail with
P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp
(sender:
<kmcvay>) (ident <kmcvay>
using unix) id <m10IKIO...@www.nizkor.org>
for
<Dav...@cableinet.co.uk>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999
17:39:16
-0500 (EST)
(Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #1 built
1997-Oct-31)
Message-ID:
<m10IKIO...@www.nizkor.org>
From:
kmc...@www.nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Subject:
Re: Himmler challenge update
In-Reply-To:
<36DDB8...@cableinet.co.uk> from David at
"Mar
3, 99 10:31:23 pm"
To:
Dav...@cableinet.co.uk
Date:
Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:39:16 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer:
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You wrote:
> You may recall that I expressed an interest in taking the Nizkor
> 'Himmler Posen speech' challenge, namely to have the tape of the speech
> analysed, pay for the analysis if it proves the tape genuine, or watch
> with satisfaction as Nizkor pays for the analysis if the tape is not
> proven genuine.
>
> On 22 February 1999 I asked the National Archives whether the original
You have not reached an agreement with Mr. Edeiken. Why is that?
Please contact Mr. Edeiken, and come to an agreement, so that we may
sign a contract in London. Without such an agreement, there is little
point in contacting me.
Thanks for the information - all of which I am already well aware of.
Ken McVay
--
The Nizkor Project-----------------------http://www.nizkor.org
Ken McVay, Director.ICQ 7015822. http://www.nizkor.org/~kmcvay
Pentium III: Big Brother Inside
<end quote>
This poses several interesting questions:
(1) If McVay knew that the National Archives would not release the
original Himmler tape, as he claims, why did he issue the challenge in
the first place?
(2) Is McVay now trying to distance himself from his challenge?
(3) Will Mr Edeiken step in and address the points from which Mr McVay
has fled?
(4) Are Nizkor prepared to attempt to persuade the National Archives to
make the original tapes available or are they not?
I now publicly challenge Mr Edeiken to address all the points made in my
original post 'Himmler Challenge Update', given that his master does not
wish to discuss the matter with me. If he, too, does not have the guts
to make his full response in alt.revisionism, I will post whatever
response comes my way on his behalf.
David E Michael
Kenneth McVay OBC
David
Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
I must say that I feel rather perplexed by Ken's response. He issues a
challenge to have a tape analysed. I say that I'm interested and that I'll
contact the owners of the tape to see if they'll let us analyse it and that
I'll get back to Nizkor if they say 'no' to discuss what to do next. The
owners say 'we won't let you analyse the original tape but we'll sell you a
copy'. I inform McVay of this, and discuss some related issues, and his
response is 'why haven't you concluded a contract with Mr Edeiken?' There
is something slightly surreal about that.
The key, methinks, is in Ken's last sentence: 'Unless, of course, there is
some reason David does not wish to sign a contract?' Could it be that
Nizkor don't want to have the tape analysed? Could it be that they want to
scupper the whole challenge so that they can then blame me for it?
I sent a cc of my last post to Edeiken and am now awaiting a response from
him to the points that I raised in my initial post in this thread -- points
with which McVay does not wish to face himself.
David
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John Morris
Edeiken wrote:
>> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
>
>> > http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=445979392 contains the
>> > following response to the initial query:
>
>> > "http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mcvay-ken/put-up-shut-up.html
>> > "http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/edeiken-yale/put-up-shut-up.html
>> > "If Mr. Edeiken will consent, he can handle the arrangements via email.
>> > I am quite willing to update my original offer to Mr. Giwer and
>> > conclude an agreement with you. If we can work out the details quickly
>> > enough, we can sign a contract when I am in London in May."
>> > What part of "[Mr. Edeiken] ...can handle the arrangements via email"
>> > does David have difficulty comprehending?
>> > Which part of "I am quite willing to update my original offer to Mr.
>> > Giwer and conclude an agreement with you." seems to give David the most
>> > trouble with respect to getting this show on the road?
>> > Which part of "If we can work out the details quickly
>> > enough, we can sign a contract when I am in London in May." does David
>> > find incomprehensible?
>> > Has David contacted Mr. Edeiken and negotiated an updated agreement?
>> > No, he has not.
>> > When he has, I will meet him in London, at the University of London,
>> > on the 7th May, 1999, or at St. Anne's, Oxford on the 14th May, and
>> > sign the contract.
>> > Then we can deal with issues of interest with respect to dealing with
>> > the tape and with voiceprints.
>> > Unless, of course, there is some reason David does not wish to sign a
>> > contract?
>> I must say that I feel rather perplexed by Ken's response. He issues a
>> challenge to have a tape analysed.
Yes. Which you accepted.
>> I say that I'm interested and that I'll
>> contact the owners of the tape to see if they'll let us analyse it and that
>> I'll get back to Nizkor if they say 'no' to discuss what to do next.
> That is becuase you were too much a twit to read the orginalchallenge.
Indeed he was. The original challenge states in plain language that
the analysis can be conducted on a good copy of the tape.
The fact that the original will not be made available is irrelevent.
>> The
>> owners say 'we won't let you analyse the original tape but we'll sell you a
>> copy'. I inform McVay of this, and discuss some related issues, and his
>> response is 'why haven't you concluded a contract with Mr Edeiken?' There
>> is something slightly surreal about that.
> Yes. That you were too much of a twit to read the original challenge.
Indeed he was, because it reads, in part:
The requirements are simple. THEY WOULD NEED A GOOD *COPY* OF THE
POSNAN SPEECH [emphasis mine] (preferably done with a patch cord) and
a copy of another speech by him. A known copy from a movie soundtrack
would be sufficient if it was of the same quality as the Posnan
speech. Transcripts of the sppech would be helpful.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/edeiken-yale/put-up-shut-up.html
What part of "good copy" of the tape did David not understand?
Why am I not surprised that David E. Michael is trying to get out of
his public commitment by trying to pretend that it is impossible to
analyse the tape?
Why am I not surprised at David E. Michael's transparent attempt to to
turn his public commitment into a naked propaganda campaign against
Ken McVay?
>> The key, methinks, is in Ken's last sentence: 'Unless, of course, there is
>> some reason David does not wish to sign a contract?' Could it be that
>> Nizkor don't want to have the tape analysed? Could it be that they want to
>> scupper the whole challenge so that they can then blame me for it?
> The key is that you did not bother to read the original challenge.
The key is that he is bailing out of his public commitment. The key is
that he wants to score a propaganda point against Ken McVay.
I believe he never had any intention of doing otherwise.
>> I sent a cc of my last post to Edeiken and am now awaiting a response from
>> him to the points that I raised in my initial post in this thread -- points
>> with which McVay does not wish to face himself.
> Which are details, ACCORDING TO THE ORIGINAL CHALLENGE, he
>never wanted to deal with and AT THAT TIME asked me to do it.
> Now, if you are finished posturing, running around like duck who was hit on
>the head, and answer the challenge (which I suggest that, at long last, you read) in a
>rational manner perhaps we can get on with business.
It is all posturing. It was from the start.
Did anyone think there would be any other outcome?
I'm sorry to say that I was gullible enough to hold out hope that he
was sincere and that we would finally put the last Revisionist
objection to the authenticity of the Posnan speech to bed.
Shall I be fool enough to ask whether David now realizes that his
objection that the tape cannot be analysed has been answered and is no
impediment to an agreement to proceed with the analysis? Should I
believe, one more time, in his honesty?
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
John Morris
+0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>This poses several interesting questions:
>(1) If McVay knew that the National Archives would not release the
>original Himmler tape, as he claims, why did he issue the challenge in
>the first place?
The tape analysis firm which Yale contacted stated that
the requirements are simple. They would need a good COPY
of the Posnan speech (preferably done with a patch cord)
and a copy of another speech by him.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/edeiken-yale/put-up-shut-up.html
As you have already found, a good copy can be purchased from the
National Archives.
>(2) Is McVay now trying to distance himself from his challenge?
He is prepared to have his attorney draw up a contract and to sign it
with you in May.
>(3) Will Mr Edeiken step in and address the points from which Mr McVay
>has fled?
Done.
>(4) Are Nizkor prepared to attempt to persuade the National Archives to
>make the original tapes available or are they not?
Not necessary:
The requirements are simple. They would need a good COPY of
the Posnan speech (preferably done with a patch cord) and a
copy of another speech by him.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/edeiken-yale/put-up-shut-up.html
>I now publicly challenge Mr Edeiken to address all the points made in my
>original post 'Himmler Challenge Update', given that his master does not
>wish to discuss the matter with me. If he, too, does not have the guts
>to make his full response in alt.revisionism, I will post whatever
>response comes my way on his behalf.
I find it all little strange that you want to make a public
controversy out this before you have even had your first exchange to
hammer out an agreement.
Please read the original terms of reference at the above-noted URL.
They are the basis for your negotiations. Perhaps most of your
objections are answered there.
David
Thank you for your little fantasy, Mr Morris. I have now received an
email from Edeiken, which I note he has not published. I will look at
this more closely to night and post it and my response here.
As a matter of interest, Mr Morris, since you have seen fit to pronounce
on this issue, whether YOU, rather than Nizkor, would like to be the
'other party' in this matter? Or don't you have the balls?
As a certain gentleman from Allentown said, 'put up or shut up'.
David
yale_f._edeiken
> Thank you for your little fantasy, Mr Morris.
Hardly a fantasy.
> I have now received an
> email from Edeiken, which I note he has not published.
That is correct. As I informed you in the letter this is a negotiation of a contract for
performing a scientific test by an expert which my client wishes to complete as soon as
possible so that it can be signed in May. It is not a public debate where people are going to
endlessly debate whatever frivolous or whimsical notion pops into your head.
As Morris notes, your failure to even bother to read the original challenge is
strongly indicative of your lack of bona fides in "accepting" it.
> I will look at
> this more closely to night and post it and my response here.
Which is your privilege. It will, however, be in the form of an e-mail to me.
> As a matter of interest, Mr Morris, since you have seen fit to pronounce
> on this issue, whether YOU, rather than Nizkor, would like to be the
> 'other party' in this matter? Or don't you have the balls?
Why should he. To date Nizkor has attempted to negotiate with you in good faith.
In response you did not even have the courtesy to read the orginal text of the challenge
and, instead, began immediately making derogatory and untrue remarks about my client.
> As a certain gentleman from Allentown said, 'put up or shut up'.
And when will you?
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
David
The email I received from Yale Edeiken last night reads as follows:
<begin quote>
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From:
ya...@enter.net
Subject:
Re: Himmler challenge update
To:
Dav...@cableinet.co.uk
Cc:
kmc...@veritas.nizkor.org
In-Reply-To:
<36DDCE...@cableinet.co.uk>
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On Thu, 04 Mar 1999, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>This poses several interesting questions:
>(1) If McVay knew that the National Archives would not release the
>original Himmler tape, as he claims, why did he issue the challenge in
>the first place?
Mr. McVay did not contact the National Archives. I did so after
consulting a
laboratory which actually performs voice print analysis (a procedure you
might have
followed). The laboratory (which was recommended to me by the leading
expert in the
world on ink analysis and which I have never used) stated that they did
not need the
original tapes to make the analysis. I requested of the curator that,
as the voice print
laboratory requested, a second or third generation copy for on site
analysis. The
curator had no objection to this procedure. He agreed, as well, to
certify on behalf of
the National Archives to certify as accurate both the Posen tape and the
control tape
being used for comparison if it came from the National Archives. As the
challenge was
never accepted, no formal request was ever made and, with the lapse of
time, I am sure
that permission would have to be obtained again.
>(2) Is McVay now trying to distance himself from his challenge?
Mr. McVay is trying to do no more than continue with the
challenge in the manner
set forth in his original challenge.
>(3) Will Mr Edeiken step in and address the points from which Mr McVay
>has fled?
Since Mr. McVay has fled from nothing and, as with my specific
permission, the
original challenge named me as the person to handle all details I need
"step in" to
nothing.
>(4) Are Nizkor prepared to attempt to persuade the National Archives to
>make the original tapes available or are they not?
I am, on behalf of Nizkor, willing to,as I have in the past,
obtain the
cooperation of the National Archives considered necessary by any voice
print laboratory
upon which we agree to analyse the speech. Since the only such
laboratory I contacted
stated that the original was not needed, I see no need for action at
this time.
>I now publicly challenge Mr Edeiken to address all the points made in my
>original post 'Himmler Challenge Update',
You may do so privately, publically, or in your neighborhood
pub. That will not
change the fact that there are serious problems to resolve; some
inherent in the
challenge and some because it was assumed that if the challenge was
accepted by the
person to whom it was originally addressed it would take place entirely
on the North
American continent. Until those problems are addressed and a final
contract is signed
there is no need to discuss other matters.
I note, as well, that your "points" were not based upon the
scientific
requirement of the analysis. They were speculations of what you
believed was required
and not necessarily of any relevance to a voice print analysis done to a
reasonable
degree of scientific certainty.
> given that his master does not
>wish to discuss the matter with me.
I point out that Mr. McVay, IN HIS ORIGINAL CHALLENGE, stated he
did not wish to
handle the details and retained me to do so.
> If he, too, does not have the guts
>to make his full response in alt.revisionism, I will post whatever
>response comes my way on his behalf.
Since this is a private negotiation rather than a public debate,
I will
communicate with you only by real or electronic mail. You may consult
with whoever you
wish and publish whatever you wish. Should you decide to publish any
communication from
me, however, you shall publish it in its entirety.
At this point I suggest you cease posturing, cease your
innuendo, and cease the
brownian motion you have to date demonstrated. I suggest you do the
following:
1. Read the original challenge and the public statement I made
at that time
which set forth the information given to me by a recognized voice print
analysis
laboratory.
2. Contact a reputable voice print analysis laboratory to
determine for yourself
what is required to make the analysis suggested and what level of
confidence there is to
their findings.
3. Consider what problems are raised by the transatlantic
nature of your
acceptance and how those problems are to be solved.
--Yale F. Edeiken
<end quote>
I do not intend to waste time dealing with the obvious posturing and
preening. Let's instead deal with the substantial issues.
First, the negotiations will be posted in alt.revisionism. There is a
very good reason for this. The best outcome for Nizkor would be for me
to simply go away without accepting the challenge. This would save them
time, money, and anxiety. They might therefore be expected to try to
engineer such an outcome -- to wreck the process and blame it on me. If
the negotiation process takes place in the open, such behaviour will be
obvious to onlookers and will attract the contempt it deserves. There is
no need for this to be a private negotiation. I could see the point in
privacy if I were purchasing McVay's house. However, this is an
archetypal matter of public interest.
Second, insofar as Yale Edeiken wishes to involve himself in this
matter, I will in no way be liable to him for costs that he may incur,
or expenses, or fees. His attorney--client relationship will be with the
counterparty, not with myself. Unless I hear from him to the contrary
within 24 hours I will take it that he has assented to this.
Third, since Yale Edeiken has conceded that there are 'problems' with
the challenge, and since his master has no wish to discuss these
problems with me, I think that the next stage of the process would be
for Yale Edeiken to produce a detailed draft contract incorporating his
solutions to those 'problems'. This should be posted here in
alt.revisionism so that we can all see it, and emailed to me. I will
then look at this carefully and refer it to other revisionists and to my
lawyers for consideration. We may wish to amend it, in which case we
will post and email the amended version for consideration by Yale
Edeiken.
Fourth, 'Nizkor' is not an acceptable counterparty. It has frequently
been commented that 'Nizkor' is 'only' a website. We may question this
assertion, but if I am entering into a contract I wish to do so with a
named individual, who can be sued, who has an address and assets, and
who cannot simply be 'wound up' and declared insolvent at a few days'
notice. This would also protect the persons carrying out the sound
analysis. As it was Mr McVay who issued the challenge, it seems
reasonable that Mr McVay should be named as the counterparty. If
'Nizkor' wishes to cover his costs, that would be a private matter
between him and 'Nizkor'. John Morris has also intervened in this
discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
his mouth is.
Fifth, I do not see legal problems arising from the international nature
of the proposed contract. I enter into international contracts every
year and, while dealing with foreigners is often frustrating, the
procedure is relatively painless. I understand that the parties can
agree on which legal system will be binding on them. Obviously, I would
prefer either the English legal system or that of the Republic of South
Africa. Yale Edeiken has cited Grotius before now, so I assume that
Roman-Dutch law is no mystery to him.
Sixth, my primary concern is that the test should be decisive. It should
leave no room for exterminationists or revisionists to criticize the
process on methodological grounds. For this reason, every reasonable
step should be taken to minimize the chances of 'false negatives' (i.e.
a finding that the tape cannot be confidently termed genuine arising
from methodological factors such as use of a poor quality copy of the
tape), or 'false positives' (i.e. a finding that the tape is genuine as
a result of extraneous factors, such as sound lab worker bias).
Seventh, I do not consider myself in any way bound by McVay's
unnecessary timescale. I do not have to travel to South Africa every
time I renew the contract leasing out my property there. I do it here in
England in the presence of witnesses and then post the thing to Cape
Town. McVay can do likewise with this contract.
I will look into the question of facilities for sound analysis next
week.
David E Michael
Posted in alt.revisionism
CC to Yale Edeiken
John Morris
+0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>I do not intend to waste time dealing with the obvious posturing and
>preening. Let's instead deal with the substantial issues.
It would indeed be a refreshing change if you were to stop posturing
and preening.
>First, the negotiations will be posted in alt.revisionism. There is a
>very good reason for this.
And we all know what that reason is. When a John Morris or a Gord
McFee responds in a way you don't like, you can accuse "Nizkor" of
negotiating in bad faith and storm off in a huff.
> The best outcome for Nizkor would be for me
>to simply go away without accepting the challenge.
The best outcome would be to complete the analysis and lay to rest one
of the sillier Revisionist objections to Himmler's speech in Posnan,
October 4, 1943.
> This would save them
>time, money, and anxiety. They might therefore be expected to try to
>engineer such an outcome -- to wreck the process and blame it on me. If
>the negotiation process takes place in the open, such behaviour will be
>obvious to onlookers and will attract the contempt it deserves.
As long as you are aware that the negotiation is between the parties
to the agreement and not between David E. Michael and the "Nizkooks,"
you shouldn't have any problem.
> There is
>no need for this to be a private negotiation. I could see the point in
>privacy if I were purchasing McVay's house. However, this is an
>archetypal matter of public interest.
>Second, insofar as Yale Edeiken wishes to involve himself in this
>matter,
As I understand it, Yale Edeiken is to act as McVay's solicitor. He is
the agent you are to negotiate with. Not me. Not Gord McFee. Not Mike
Curtis. Not William Daffer. Not Chuck Ferree.
If I were to make a prediction today, I would say that you will break
off negotiations because of your feigned disgust with "hypocrisy" and
"dishonesty" of the "Nizkooks," and not because of any substantial
disagreement with McVay or his agent.
Prove me wrong. For once, I *want* you to prove me wrong.
> I will in no way be liable to him for costs that he may incur,
>or expenses, or fees. His attorney--client relationship will be with the
>counterparty, not with myself. Unless I hear from him to the contrary
>within 24 hours I will take it that he has assented to this.
I hope you will show enough good faith to continue e-mailing copies of
these posts. It would only be to your advantage if a post were missed
because of poor news service propagation. Please bear in mind that
while e-mail is not 100% reliable, it is far more reliable than
Usenet.
>Third, since Yale Edeiken has conceded that there are 'problems' with
>the challenge, and since his master has no wish to discuss these
>problems with me,
Please try to grasp the concept that "his master" is speaking to you
through his agent, Yale Edeiken.
Less posturing and more negotiating is what is called for.
> I think that the next stage of the process would be
>for Yale Edeiken to produce a detailed draft contract incorporating his
>solutions to those 'problems'. This should be posted here in
>alt.revisionism so that we can all see it, and emailed to me. I will
>then look at this carefully and refer it to other revisionists and to my
>lawyers for consideration. We may wish to amend it, in which case we
>will post and email the amended version for consideration by Yale
>Edeiken.
>Fourth, 'Nizkor' is not an acceptable counterparty. It has frequently
>been commented that 'Nizkor' is 'only' a website. We may question this
>assertion, but if I am entering into a contract I wish to do so with a
>named individual, who can be sued, who has an address and assets, and
>who cannot simply be 'wound up' and declared insolvent at a few days'
>notice.
Fair enough. If I were a party to this negotiation, I would recommend
that both parties deposit in trust the full cost of the analysis
before the analysis is done.
> This would also protect the persons carrying out the sound
>analysis. As it was Mr McVay who issued the challenge, it seems
>reasonable that Mr McVay should be named as the counterparty. If
>'Nizkor' wishes to cover his costs, that would be a private matter
>between him and 'Nizkor'. John Morris has also intervened in this
>discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
>has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
>his mouth is.
I have not intervened in anything. You have posted private e-mail for
public discussion in a public newsgroup, and I have responded in
public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
negotiations.
But my belief is that you have decided to make the negotiation process
public with the intention of drawing fire so that you have a plausible
reason for abandoning your public commitment. I believe you have
realized that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of
Himmler's speech at Posen and that you have realized you stand to lose
the cost of the analysis because of your ill-advised, and
all-too-typical, posturing. I also believe that you were posturing
from the outset, that you had no intention of doing anything but
scuttling the challenge to score what you thought might be some cheap
points.
I am sorry if you now regret your folly. But *you* made the public
commitment to take up the challenge, and no amount of juvenile
taunting on your part changes that fact.
I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
excuse myself from participation by reveal my financial status to the
general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
left to the imagination of my readers.
That being said, it is your money and your mouth that we are concerned
with here, not mine.
>Fifth, I do not see legal problems arising from the international nature
>of the proposed contract. I enter into international contracts every
>year and, while dealing with foreigners is often frustrating, the
>procedure is relatively painless. I understand that the parties can
>agree on which legal system will be binding on them. Obviously, I would
>prefer either the English legal system or that of the Republic of South
>Africa. Yale Edeiken has cited Grotius before now, so I assume that
>Roman-Dutch law is no mystery to him.
Since this paragraph reveals you to be a babbling ignoramus, I suggest
you retain counsel and let him or her carry on the negotiations for
you.
>Sixth, my primary concern is that the test should be decisive. It should
>leave no room for exterminationists or revisionists to criticize the
>process on methodological grounds. For this reason, every reasonable
>step should be taken to minimize the chances of 'false negatives' (i.e.
>a finding that the tape cannot be confidently termed genuine arising
>from methodological factors such as use of a poor quality copy of the
>tape), or 'false positives' (i.e. a finding that the tape is genuine as
>a result of extraneous factors, such as sound lab worker bias).
When you contact your own sound technicians, I suggest you find out
what conclusions they are capable of drawing, whether they can
double-blind the test, and just how many double-blinds a radical
skeptic like you would require before you considered the tests and
conclusions reliable.
I suggest Yale does the same.
What for instance would be the meaning of a result which stated merely
that there was no evidence of tampering.
I know what it would mean to me. I don't know if it would mean
anything at all to you or the nature of the cognitive dissonance that
it would soothe back to comfort and contentment.
>Seventh, I do not consider myself in any way bound by McVay's
>unnecessary timescale. I do not have to travel to South Africa every
>time I renew the contract leasing out my property there. I do it here in
>England in the presence of witnesses and then post the thing to Cape
>Town. McVay can do likewise with this contract.
>I will look into the question of facilities for sound analysis next
>week.
Do.
David
> >John Morris has also intervened in this
> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
> >his mouth is.
>
> I have not intervened in anything. You have posted private e-mail for
> public discussion in a public newsgroup,
The e-mail was sent after the sender had been informed that all email
communication on the topic would be posted.
> and I have responded in
> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
> negotiations.
And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
fear?
> But my belief is that you have decided to make the negotiation process
> public with the intention of drawing fire so that you have a plausible
> reason for abandoning your public commitment.
So what have you to lose? If you sincerely believe this, become the
counterparty. If I back down you don't lose a cent.
> I believe you have
> realized that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of
> Himmler's speech at Posen and that you have realized you stand to lose
> the cost of the analysis because of your ill-advised, and
> all-too-typical, posturing. I also believe that you were posturing
> from the outset, that you had no intention of doing anything but
> scuttling the challenge to score what you thought might be some cheap
> points.
Fine. So put your money where your mouth is.
> I am sorry if you now regret your folly. But *you* made the public
> commitment to take up the challenge, and no amount of juvenile
> taunting on your part changes that fact.
>
> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
> excuse myself from participation by reveal my financial status to the
> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
> left to the imagination of my readers.
Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
Cluck cluck cluck.
If you believe that I am insincere, as you have stated, participation
will not cost you a cent. If the Himmler tapes are genuine, as you have
stated, participation will not cost you a cent.
As Yale F Edeiken said: 'put up or shut up'.
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
David
Mike Curtis
><snip>
>> >John Morris has also intervened in this
>> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
>> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
>> >his mouth is.
>>
>> I have not intervened in anything. You have posted private e-mail for
>> public discussion in a public newsgroup,
Hey, David! You made a private negotiation public. you made it public
so that we became aware that you hadn't even read the challenge you
were accepting. Geeze! LOL!
>The e-mail was sent after the sender had been informed that all email
>communication on the topic would be posted.
Yeah, pretty funny, huh? <smile>
>> and I have responded in
>> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
>> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
>> negotiations.
>
>And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
>every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
>genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
>challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
>fear?
Not a thing! It's going to be your cash. This is between you and
Nizkor anyway. they are the ones making the challenge you accepted. We
are here laughing out loud and commenting on your wriggling. This is
all quite good actually. It's almost better than a Monty Python skit.
>> But my belief is that you have decided to make the negotiation process
>> public with the intention of drawing fire so that you have a plausible
>> reason for abandoning your public commitment.
>
>So what have you to lose? If you sincerely believe this, become the
>counterparty. If I back down you don't lose a cent.
David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
IHR for help supporting you financially?
>> I believe you have
>> realized that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of
>> Himmler's speech at Posen and that you have realized you stand to lose
>> the cost of the analysis because of your ill-advised, and
>> all-too-typical, posturing. I also believe that you were posturing
>> from the outset, that you had no intention of doing anything but
>> scuttling the challenge to score what you thought might be some cheap
>> points.
>
>Fine. So put your money where your mouth is.
David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
IHR for help supporting you financially?
I think your going to need it. I do suggest you get a lawyer's advise
also. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
>> I am sorry if you now regret your folly. But *you* made the public
>> commitment to take up the challenge, and no amount of juvenile
>> taunting on your part changes that fact.
>>
>> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
>> excuse myself from participation by reveal my financial status to the
>> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
>> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
>> left to the imagination of my readers.
>
>Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
>SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
Nizkor is making the challenge. John and I are enjoying the public
show you are making.
>Cluck cluck cluck.
More like Ha ha ha.
>If you believe that I am insincere, as you have stated, participation
>will not cost you a cent. If the Himmler tapes are genuine, as you have
>stated, participation will not cost you a cent.
It isn't going to cost him a cent anyway. I can't because I don't have
the financial ability to tie up good money while you play with
yourself. Nizkor has made the challenge and their money is there.
where's yours?
>As Yale F Edeiken said: 'put up or shut up'.
Yes, he said to David Michaels. LOL!
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
them in honey, garlic, ginger and tomato puree, but the honey always
seems to go past the sticky stage and burns, anyone any tips, or recipes
? Also I'm going to serve with long grain American rice,
any suggestions how to spice it up a little (no chillies please !!)
Thanks
--
Jo
Remove nospam
John Morris
David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
>> excuse myself from participation by revealing my financial status to the
>> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
>> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
>> left to the imagination of my readers.
>Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
>SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
For someone who seems to be having trouble understanding the original
terms of reference, much less concluding an agreement, you seem to be
quite confident of what Ken McVay will or will not do.
>Cluck cluck cluck.
Taunt me all you wish. It will not deflect attention from your keen
desire to escape your public commitment.
Look. If you want to run away, at least run away like a man instead of
using me or the newsgroup as your excuse.
It's so childish. And, frankly, so predictable. Grow up, David.
*You* strutted around like you were the world-beating Revisionist.
*You* were the one so supremely confident that you were going to prove
the Posen speech was a fake. *You* were the one who wanted to enter
into negotiations to take up the challenge. And *you* are the one who
is either going to negotiate that agreement or run away.
Watch for it, folks. This is just the beginning. David is going to beg
off because "Nizkooks" like me, who are not parties to the challenge,
are "dishonest" about it.
You heard it here first: David will *never* conclude an agreement with
Nizkor or Ken McVay to bear the costs of an analysis of the tape of
Himmler's Posen Speech.
[snip]
John Morris
mi...@nospam.aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
>IHR for help supporting you financially?
I wish he would do something constructive like negotiate an agreement
with McVay like he said he wanted to.
>I think your going to need it. I do suggest you get a lawyer's advise
>also. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
Mr. Barrister-Solicitor, QC: "Am I to understand that you want me to
negotiate an agreement to bear the costs of tests to prove that a
taped speech by Heinrich Himmler is faked? Harrummp, hmm. As I see it,
Mr. Michael, we have two courses open to us. Either you can represent
yourself, in which case you will have a fool for a client, or I can
represent you, in which I will have a fool for a client."
[snip]
Yale F. Edeiken
David wrote in message <36DFD6...@cableinet.co.uk>...
><snip>
>> >John Morris has also intervened in this
>> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
>> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
>> >his mouth is.
>> and I have responded in
>> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
>> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
>> negotiations.
>And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
>every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
>genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
>challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
>fear?
Thank you for providing a convincing reason why any negotiation over the
details of a contract should remain private. By posting private e-mails you
have invited others to join the discussion and create diversions such as
this.
The challenge (which you accepted without reading) was issued by Ken
McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to negotiate an
agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original challenge. Instead
of dealing with those details you have made unfounded charges and raised
objections based solely upon your uninformed speculation. Now you are
attempting to drag yet another party into an agreement that will concern
only you and the Nizkor Project.
Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and address
the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement.
David
Mike Curtis wrote:
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ><snip>
> >> >John Morris has also intervened in this
> >> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
> >> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
> >> >his mouth is.
> >>
> >> I have not intervened in anything. You have posted private e-mail for
> >> public discussion in a public newsgroup,
>
> Hey, David! You made a private negotiation public. you made it public
> so that we became aware that you hadn't even read the challenge you
> were accepting. Geeze! LOL!
>
> >The e-mail was sent after the sender had been informed that all email
> >communication on the topic would be posted.
>
> Yeah, pretty funny, huh? <smile>
>
> >> and I have responded in
> >> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
> >> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
> >> negotiations.
> >
> >And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
> >every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
> >genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
> >challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
> >fear?
>
> Not a thing! It's going to be your cash. This is between you and
> Nizkor anyway. they are the ones making the challenge you accepted. We
> are here laughing out loud and commenting on your wriggling. This is
> all quite good actually. It's almost better than a Monty Python skit.
>
> >> But my belief is that you have decided to make the negotiation process
> >> public with the intention of drawing fire so that you have a plausible
> >> reason for abandoning your public commitment.
> >
> >So what have you to lose? If you sincerely believe this, become the
> >counterparty. If I back down you don't lose a cent.
>
> David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> IHR for help supporting you financially?
>
> >> I believe you have
> >> realized that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of
> >> Himmler's speech at Posen and that you have realized you stand to lose
> >> the cost of the analysis because of your ill-advised, and
> >> all-too-typical, posturing. I also believe that you were posturing
> >> from the outset, that you had no intention of doing anything but
> >> scuttling the challenge to score what you thought might be some cheap
> >> points.
> >
> >Fine. So put your money where your mouth is.
>
> David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> IHR for help supporting you financially?
>
> I think your going to need it. I do suggest you get a lawyer's advise
> also. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
>
> >> I am sorry if you now regret your folly. But *you* made the public
> >> commitment to take up the challenge, and no amount of juvenile
> >> taunting on your part changes that fact.
> >>
> >> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
> >> excuse myself from participation by reveal my financial status to the
> >> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
> >> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
> >> left to the imagination of my readers.
> >
> >Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
> >SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
>
> Nizkor is making the challenge. John and I are enjoying the public
> show you are making.
>
> >Cluck cluck cluck.
>
> More like Ha ha ha.
>
> >If you believe that I am insincere, as you have stated, participation
> >will not cost you a cent. If the Himmler tapes are genuine, as you have
> >stated, participation will not cost you a cent.
>
> It isn't going to cost him a cent anyway. I can't because I don't have
> the financial ability to tie up good money while you play with
> yourself. Nizkor has made the challenge and their money is there.
> where's yours?
>
> >As Yale F Edeiken said: 'put up or shut up'.
>
> Yes, he said to David Michaels. LOL!
>
> Mike Curtis
>
>
At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
now is for someone to come forward.
I notice that YOU haven't volunteered, Michael.
David
David
John Morris wrote:
> In <36e2d7d1...@news.sig.net>, on Fri, 05 Mar 1999 13:19:58 GMT,
> mi...@nospam.aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
> >David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> >IHR for help supporting you financially?
>
> I wish he would do something constructive like negotiate an agreement
> with McVay like he said he wanted to.
>
> >I think your going to need it. I do suggest you get a lawyer's advise
> >also. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
>
> Mr. Barrister-Solicitor, QC: "Am I to understand that you want me to
> negotiate an agreement to bear the costs of tests to prove that a
> taped speech by Heinrich Himmler is faked? Harrummp, hmm. As I see it,
> Mr. Michael, we have two courses open to us. Either you can represent
> yourself, in which case you will have a fool for a client, or I can
> represent you, in which I will have a fool for a client."
>
> [snip]
>
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
If you are so certain that I have no intention of going ahead, why won't
you take up my challenge and become the counterparty? My money is ready.
My pen is poised. You, however, have disappeared from the scene faster
than a chicken with an Exocet missile up its bum.
David
Mike Curtis
>At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
>your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
>now is for someone to come forward.
>
>I notice that YOU haven't volunteered, Michael.
There's not one thing for me to volunteer for. I'm a mere observer who
has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
Why, David? What are you afraid of? You already have the great and
powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
interest.
You don't need those of us who post to this public news group to
somehow legitimize the situation.
This is between you and Nizkor and Ken McVay. Read the agreement. We
are just here watching you public humiliation and finding it funny.
Oh, so funny.
Do what Yale suggests:
" The challenge (which you accepted without reading) was issued by
Ken McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to
negotiate an agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original
challenge. Instead of dealing with those details you have made
unfounded charges and raised objections based solely upon your
uninformed speculation. Now you are attempting to drag yet another
party into an agreement that will concern only you and the Nizkor
Project.
Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and
address the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement."
John and I are simply watching the show your putting on.
Thanks!
Mike Curtis
David
John Morris wrote:
> In <36DFD6...@cableinet.co.uk>, on Fri, 05 Mar 1999 13:04:26 +0000,
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
> >> excuse myself from participation by revealing my financial status to the
> >> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
> >> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
> >> left to the imagination of my readers.
>
> >Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
> >SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
>
> For someone who seems to be having trouble understanding the original
> terms of reference, much less concluding an agreement, you seem to be
> quite confident of what Ken McVay will or will not do.
>
Au contraire. I am awaiting a draft contract from Edeiken. He emailed me to say
that this will be forthcoming after he's shown it to McVay.
>
> >Cluck cluck cluck.
>
> Taunt me all you wish.
Rest assured, I will. You have been mouthing off about how certain you are
about my intentions being insincere. I have challenged you, if you feel this
way, to put your own money forward and stand in as the counterparty. After all,
if you truly feel I'll back down, what do you have to lose? What are you afraid
of Mr Morris?
> It will not deflect attention from your keen
> desire to escape your public commitment.
>
If you feel that this is my keen desire, why will you not step forward and put
your money where your mouth is? After all, if I back down, you lose not a cent.
Could it be because you are once again fantasizing and you know perfectly well
that if you put your own money forward you stand a fair chance of losing it?
>
> Look. If you want to run away, at least run away like a man instead of
> using me or the newsgroup as your excuse.
>
> It's so childish. And, frankly, so predictable. Grow up, David.
>
If you'd predicted it, why did you walk into it?
>
> *You* strutted around like you were the world-beating Revisionist.
>
Moi? I'm just a simple man asking simple questions.
> *You* were the one so supremely confident that you were going to prove
> the Posen speech was a fake. *You* were the one who wanted to enter
> into negotiations to take up the challenge. And *you* are the one who
> is either going to negotiate that agreement or run away.
>
> Watch for it, folks. This is just the beginning. David is going to beg
> off because "Nizkooks" like me, who are not parties to the challenge,
> are "dishonest" about it.
>
Interesting fantasy. Funny how you run off when challenged to put money on it,
Mr M.
>
> You heard it here first: David will *never* conclude an agreement with
> Nizkor or Ken McVay to bear the costs of an analysis of the tape of
> Himmler's Posen Speech.
>
So what do you have to fear from putting yourself forward as a counterparty?
Could it be that you know that what you've just written is a lot of nonsense?
Could it be that you lack faith in the authenticity of the Himmler tapes, and
thus of the 'Holocaust' story?
>
> [snip]
>
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
Laid any good eggs recently, Mr M?
David
David
Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> David wrote in message <36DFD6...@cableinet.co.uk>...
> ><snip>
>
> >> >John Morris has also intervened in this
> >> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
> >> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
> >> >his mouth is.
>
> >> and I have responded in
> >> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
> >> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
> >> negotiations.
>
> >And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
> >every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
> >genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
> >challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
> >fear?
>
> Thank you for providing a convincing reason why any negotiation over the
> details of a contract should remain private. By posting private e-mails you
> have invited others to join the discussion and create diversions such as
> this.
>
Another faction fight?
On the contrary. In among the nonsense, Morris has made two interesting points,
which I will refer to when I respond to your email tonight. In fact, he's been
rather helpful so I well understand your irritation with his intervention.
> The challenge (which you accepted without reading)
False. I read it. I responded to it by saying I'd contact the owners of the tape
to see if they'd make it available. They said that they wouldn't but that they'd
let us have a copy. I will have to consult with others about this. I have today
spoken to Mr De Arman and he has given me some interesting information. More of
this in due course. I then informed Mr McVay and the newsgroup of the news and
he fled almost as fast as Mr Morris did.
> was issued by Ken
> McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to negotiate an
> agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original challenge.
I think we both accept that the original challenge was merely bare bones that
need to be fleshed out. That is what we are doing right now.
> Instead
> of dealing with those details you have made unfounded charges and raised
> objections based solely upon your uninformed speculation. Now you are
> attempting to drag yet another party into an agreement that will concern
> only you and the Nizkor Project.
>
On the contrary. The other party has expressed the view that I am insincere. I
am merely attempting to establish that it is he, not I, who is insincere. I
think I have succeeded in this very well. The speed with which he backed down
must make him one of the fastest flying chickens in Alberta.
>
> Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and address
> the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement.
>
If people wish to raise issues, I have to respond.
And it is I who am now waiting for YOU, Mr Edeiken. I still do not have the
draft contract you said you'd provide. Why not?
>
> --YFE
>
> The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
> The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
> The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
> The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
David
David
Mike Curtis wrote:
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
> >your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
> >now is for someone to come forward.
> >
> >I notice that YOU haven't volunteered, Michael.
>
> There's not one thing for me to volunteer for. I'm a mere observer who
> has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
> taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
>
> Why, David? What are you afraid of? You already have the great and
> powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
> interest.
>
> You don't need those of us who post to this public news group to
> somehow legitimize the situation.
>
> This is between you and Nizkor and Ken McVay. Read the agreement. We
> are just here watching you public humiliation and finding it funny.
> Oh, so funny.
>
> Do what Yale suggests:
>
> " The challenge (which you accepted without reading) was issued by
> Ken McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to
> negotiate an agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original
> challenge. Instead of dealing with those details you have made
> unfounded charges and raised objections based solely upon your
> uninformed speculation. Now you are attempting to drag yet another
> party into an agreement that will concern only you and the Nizkor
> Project.
>
> Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and
> address the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement."
>
> John and I are simply watching the show your putting on.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike Curtis
>
>
And providing entertainment for us all every time I invite you to take the place of
Nizkor and put YOUR money where your mouth is.
Come on, Mikey! What have you got to lose?
David
Yale F. Edeiken
David wrote in message <36E0017E...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and
put
>your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we
need
>now is for someone to come forward.
This statement implies that Nizkor has chosen not to honor its
challenge.
This accusation is, as you well know, completely false.
Mike Curtis
>
>
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
>> >your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
>> >now is for someone to come forward.
>> >
>Nizkor and put YOUR money where your mouth is.
And you failed to answer my points. In fact you ignored them. So let
us repeat:
There's not one thing for me to volunteer for. I'm a mere observer who
has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
Why, David? What are you afraid of? You already have the great and
powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
interest.
You don't need those of us who post to this public news group to
somehow legitimize the situation.
>Come on, Mikey! What have you got to lose?
Other than tying up good money I don't have in your stupid game.
David, THIS IS YOUR game. It isn't mine. You're the one that accepted
the challenge.
My name is Mike. Do you feel better calling me name I do not use?
The ONLY person in the two parties involved I see doing any blustering
at all is you? Why don't you have the support of your friends in this?
Feeling a little lonely out there? Feel like they are letting you wave
in the wind all alone?
Hang in there, David and address this with Nizkor and their
representatives privately from now on. Don't make an ass of yourself
further.
Mike Curtis
David
Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> David wrote in message <36E0017E...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>
> >At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and
> put
> >your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we
> need
> >now is for someone to come forward.
>
> This statement implies that Nizkor has chosen not to honor its
> challenge.
>
I still don't have a draft contract, Mr E. All I see is people fleeing in all
directions!
>
> This accusation is, as you well know, completely false.
>
Well prove it by posting the draft contract.
>
> --YFE
>
> The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
> The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
> The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
> The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
David
David
Mike Curtis wrote:
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Mike Curtis wrote:
> >
> >> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
> >> >your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
> >> >now is for someone to come forward.
> >> >
No I didn't. I responded by enquiring whether you are merely making noises or whether
you will put your money where your mouth is. It seems the answer is that you are making
noises.
>
> There's not one thing for me to volunteer for.
Sure there is. Put your money where your mouth is.
> I'm a mere observer who
> has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
> taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
>
Wait until I post Edeiken's email tonight. You will observe something very interesting.
>
> Why, David? What are you afraid of?
Not you, Mike. The chances of you taking up my challenge are about as remote as the
chances of you posting any coherent argument.
> You already have the great and
> powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
> interest.
>
Nah, Ken's fled.
>
> You don't need those of us who post to this public news group to
> somehow legitimize the situation.
>
No, but since you decide to comment I think it is quite legitimate for me to highlight
the insincerity of your comments.
>
> >Come on, Mikey! What have you got to lose?
>
> Other than tying up good money I don't have in your stupid game.
What would you tie up? If I am going to back down, as you say, then it'll all be over.
Heck, I'd even pay your lost interest for you!
> David, THIS IS YOUR game. It isn't mine. You're the one that accepted
> the challenge.
>
And you're the one who has fled from it.
Does that mean you don't have faith in the genuineness of the Himmler tapes, Michael?
>
> My name is Mike. Do you feel better calling me name I do not use?
>
Michael, you regularly call your opponents 'moron', 'cretin' and worse. Do you feel
better showing yourself to be one of the biggest hypocrites on the Internet?
>
> The ONLY person in the two parties involved I see doing any blustering
> at all is you? Why don't you have the support of your friends in this?
> Feeling a little lonely out there? Feel like they are letting you wave
> in the wind all alone?
>
Why doesn't Nizkor have the support of its friends? Where is Mike Curtis, bravely
stepping in to save them the cost and embarrassment that they face? Nowhere in sight. Oh
. . . but hang on . . . what's that yellow feathery thing I see retreating into the
distance at break-neck speed?
>
> Hang in there, David and address this with Nizkor and their
> representatives privately from now on. Don't make an ass of yourself
> further.
>
From which I perceive you do not intend to take up the challenge.
Cluck cluck cluck.
>
> Mike Curtis
>
>
Watch out for the foxes.
David
Steve Mock
> Mike Curtis wrote:
>
> > David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > ><snip>
> > >> >John Morris has also intervened in this
> > >> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
> > >> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
> > >> >his mouth is.
> > >>
> > >> I have not intervened in anything. You have posted private e-mail for
> > >> public discussion in a public newsgroup,
> >
> > Hey, David! You made a private negotiation public. you made it public
> > so that we became aware that you hadn't even read the challenge you
> > were accepting. Geeze! LOL!
> >
> > >The e-mail was sent after the sender had been informed that all email
> > >communication on the topic would be posted.
> >
> > Yeah, pretty funny, huh? <smile>
> >
> > >> and I have responded in
> > >> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
> > >> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
> > >> negotiations.
> > >
> > >And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
> > >every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
> > >genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
> > >challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
> > >fear?
> >
> > Not a thing! It's going to be your cash. This is between you and
> > Nizkor anyway. they are the ones making the challenge you accepted. We
> > are here laughing out loud and commenting on your wriggling. This is
> > all quite good actually. It's almost better than a Monty Python skit.
> >
> > >> But my belief is that you have decided to make the negotiation process
> > >> public with the intention of drawing fire so that you have a plausible
> > >> reason for abandoning your public commitment.
> > >
> > >So what have you to lose? If you sincerely believe this, become the
> > >counterparty. If I back down you don't lose a cent.
> >
> > David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> > IHR for help supporting you financially?
> >
> > >> I believe you have
> > >> realized that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of
> > >> Himmler's speech at Posen and that you have realized you stand to lose
> > >> the cost of the analysis because of your ill-advised, and
> > >> all-too-typical, posturing. I also believe that you were posturing
> > >> from the outset, that you had no intention of doing anything but
> > >> scuttling the challenge to score what you thought might be some cheap
> > >> points.
> > >
> > >Fine. So put your money where your mouth is.
> >
> > David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> > IHR for help supporting you financially?
> >
> > I think your going to need it. I do suggest you get a lawyer's advise
> > also. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
> >
> > >> I am sorry if you now regret your folly. But *you* made the public
> > >> commitment to take up the challenge, and no amount of juvenile
> > >> taunting on your part changes that fact.
> > >>
> > >> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
> > >> excuse myself from participation by reveal my financial status to the
> > >> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
> > >> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
> > >> left to the imagination of my readers.
> > >
> > >Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
> > >SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
> >
> > Nizkor is making the challenge. John and I are enjoying the public
> > show you are making.
> >
> > >Cluck cluck cluck.
> >
> > More like Ha ha ha.
> >
> > >If you believe that I am insincere, as you have stated, participation
> > >will not cost you a cent. If the Himmler tapes are genuine, as you have
> > >stated, participation will not cost you a cent.
> >
> > It isn't going to cost him a cent anyway. I can't because I don't have
> > the financial ability to tie up good money while you play with
> > yourself. Nizkor has made the challenge and their money is there.
> > where's yours?
> >
> > >As Yale F Edeiken said: 'put up or shut up'.
> >
> > Yes, he said to David Michaels. LOL!
> >
> > Mike Curtis
>
> At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
> your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
> now is for someone to come forward.
>
> I notice that YOU haven't volunteered, Michael.
Why should he when Nizkor already has?
Steve Mock
John Morris
+0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>If you are so certain that I have no intention of going ahead, why won't
>you take up my challenge and become the counterparty? My money is ready.
>My pen is poised. You, however, have disappeared from the scene faster
>than a chicken with an Exocet missile up its bum.
I think you're talking to the wrong guy. I am not the person who made
the challenge, and I'm not the person you said you wanted to negotiate
with to take up the challenge.
Please stop these meaningless diversions and get down to the business
of good faith negotiations with the Nizkor Project.
No amount of juvenile posturing will get the job done.
Mike Curtis
>> >> Do what Yale suggests:
>> >>
>> >> " The challenge (which you accepted without reading) was issued by
>> >> Ken McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to
>> >> negotiate an agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original
>> >> challenge. Instead of dealing with those details you have made
>> >> unfounded charges and raised objections based solely upon your
>> >> uninformed speculation. Now you are attempting to drag yet another
>> >> party into an agreement that will concern only you and the Nizkor
>> >> Project.
>> >>
>> >> Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and
>> >> address the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement."
>> >>
>> >> John and I are simply watching the show your putting on.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!
>> And you failed to answer my points. In fact you ignored them. So let
>> us repeat:
>No I didn't. I responded by enquiring whether you are merely making noises or whether
>you will put your money where your mouth is. It seems the answer is that you are making
>noises.
I'm watching your show, David. I don't have to volunteer for anything
at all! Nizkor already has! I'm also not making any claims so I don't
know what this phrase means as it applies to me: "put your money where
your mouth is."
>> There's not one thing for me to volunteer for.
>
>Sure there is. Put your money where your mouth is.
Explain what I've said that calls for me to put my money where my
mouth is. Please. Remember, David, Nizkor already has.
>> I'm a mere observer who
>> has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
>> taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
>Wait until I post Edeiken's email tonight. You will observe something very interesting.
I can't wait! I'm sure you'll make it all public! LOL!
>> Why, David? What are you afraid of?
>Not you, Mike. The chances of you taking up my challenge are about as remote as the
>chances of you posting any coherent argument.
What's _your_ challenge exactly, David? You haven't challenged me at
all. All I've seen you do is shout at other to put their money where
their mouth is but as for myself I've made no claims. I'm watching
your Monty Python act.
>> You already have the great and
>> powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
>> interest.
>Nah, Ken's fled.
Don't think so, Cuddles.
>> You don't need those of us who post to this public news group to
>> somehow legitimize the situation.
>No, but since you decide to comment I think it is quite legitimate for me to highlight
>the insincerity of your comments.
Where have I been insincere? Show it to me, David.
>> >Come on, Mikey! What have you got to lose?
>>
>> Other than tying up good money I don't have in your stupid game.
>
>What would you tie up? If I am going to back down, as you say, then it'll all be over.
>Heck, I'd even pay your lost interest for you!
I never claimed that you would back down. I suspect you are trying to
find a way out. That seems to be the working script for this comedy at
the moment. You claim that Ken McVay has fled, but I see no signs of
that at all. John Morris is pretty convinced you'll back down. He has
said so. This is his mere observation since you've made this such a
public event.
>> David, THIS IS YOUR game. It isn't mine. You're the one that accepted
>> the challenge.
>And you're the one who has fled from it.
Not at all, I'm still here. Watching. Enjoying the show. Was I right
about you being as stupid as your pockets are deep? That was very
sincere of me to say so. I actually hope you sign the contract with
Ken and Nizkor.
>Does that mean you don't have faith in the genuineness of the Himmler tapes, Michael?
Not at all. I simply have better things to do with my time and money.
The tapes aren't an issue for me, David. Frankly I don't care one way
or the other about those tapes because the history of the Holocaust
does not depend upon those tapes. You morons seem to forget that
history is not made from one single source but a multitude of sources.
You're the one taking issue with them. This is between you and the
great and oh so powerful Nizkor you really fear so much.
>> My name is Mike. Do you feel better calling me name I do not use?
>Michael, you regularly call your opponents 'moron', 'cretin' and worse. Do you feel
>better showing yourself to be one of the biggest hypocrites on the Internet?
Yup, and I enjoy it. But I use their real names when I know them. Show
me a time where I was a hypocrite, David. Please.
Maybe you ought to look up the word in your dictionary before you do?
>> The ONLY person in the two parties involved I see doing any blustering
>> at all is you? Why don't you have the support of your friends in this?
>> Feeling a little lonely out there? Feel like they are letting you wave
>> in the wind all alone?
>Why doesn't Nizkor have the support of its friends?
You have Yale as the solicitor and Ken McVay. You have all those
people who donate to the organization's money at stake. I can't
imagine why you actually think you need more.
> Where is Mike Curtis, bravely
>stepping in to save them the cost and embarrassment that they face? Nowhere in sight. Oh
>. . . but hang on . . . what's that yellow feathery thing I see retreating into the
>distance at break-neck speed?
I'm still here, david, watching your very public show!
>> Hang in there, David and address this with Nizkor and their
>> representatives privately from now on. Don't make an ass of yourself
>> further.
>>
>
>From which I perceive you do not intend to take up the challenge.
What challenge? I really see no challenge.
>Cluck cluck cluck.
LOL! What a maroon!
>>
>> Mike Curtis
>Watch out for the foxes.
I watch for those every day!
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>In <36E00215...@cableinet.co.uk>, on Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:11:02
>+0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>If you are so certain that I have no intention of going ahead, why won't
>>you take up my challenge and become the counterparty? My money is ready.
>>My pen is poised. You, however, have disappeared from the scene faster
>>than a chicken with an Exocet missile up its bum.
>
>I think you're talking to the wrong guy. I am not the person who made
>the challenge, and I'm not the person you said you wanted to negotiate
>with to take up the challenge.
>
>Please stop these meaningless diversions and get down to the business
>of good faith negotiations with the Nizkor Project.
>
>No amount of juvenile posturing will get the job done.
Actually this too good a show to stop now! The movie _Something About
Mary_ was pretty bad. This is pretty good.
Mike Curtis
David
John Morris wrote:
> In <36E00215...@cableinet.co.uk>, on Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:11:02
> +0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >If you are so certain that I have no intention of going ahead, why won't
> >you take up my challenge and become the counterparty? My money is ready.
> >My pen is poised. You, however, have disappeared from the scene faster
> >than a chicken with an Exocet missile up its bum.
>
> I think you're talking to the wrong guy. I am not the person who made
> the challenge, and I'm not the person you said you wanted to negotiate
> with to take up the challenge.
>
Not at all. You questioned my sincerity. I merely wanted to illustrate that
you were not being sincere. Your spectacular flight has proven the point
rather superbly.
>
> Please stop these meaningless diversions and get down to the business
> of good faith negotiations with the Nizkor Project.
>
> No amount of juvenile posturing will get the job done.
>
Then might I suggest that you desist from juvenile posting. I await the draft
contract from Edeiken.
>
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
David
Yale F. Edeiken
David wrote in message <36E005AA...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>> >> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if
he
>> >> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money
where
>> >> >his mouth is.
>>
>> >> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
>> >> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
>> >> negotiations.
>>
>> >every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
>> >genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
>> >challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
>> >fear?
>>
the
>> details of a contract should remain private. By posting private e-mails
you
>> have invited others to join the discussion and create diversions such as
>> this.
>>
>
>Another faction fight?
Nonsense. An attempt to keep the discussion on track in spite of your
diversions.
>On the contrary. In among the nonsense, Morris has made two interesting
points,
>which I will refer to when I respond to your email tonight. In fact, he's
been
>rather helpful so I well understand your irritation with his intervention.
My irritation is at your behavior in attempting to make a public debate
over a contract negotiation
>> The challenge (which you accepted without reading)
>False. I read it.
Then improve your reading skills. You were unaware of the contents of
the challenge.
> I responded to it by saying I'd contact the owners of the tape
>to see if they'd make it available. They said that they wouldn't but that
they'd
>let us have a copy. I will have to consult with others about this. I have
today
>spoken to Mr De Arman and he has given me some interesting information.
More of
>this in due course. I then informed Mr McVay and the newsgroup of the news
and
>he fled almost as fast as Mr Morris did.
False. Mr. McVay has never "fled" from you. He has referred you the
specific language of the challenge of which you were obviously unaware.
>> was issued by Ken
>> McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to negotiatve
an
>> agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original challenge.
>I think we both accept that the original challenge was merely bare bones
that
>need to be fleshed out. That is what we are doing right now.
At the present I have had no substantive input from you as to the
details which you want in the agreement. Instead you have attempted to
involve others in the procedure.
>> Instead
>> of dealing with those details you have made unfounded charges and raised
>> objections based solely upon your uninformed speculation. Now you are
>> attempting to drag yet another party into an agreement that will concern
>> only you and the Nizkor Project.
>>
>
>On the contrary. The other party has expressed the view that I am
insincere. I
>am merely attempting to establish that it is he, not I, who is insincere. I
>think I have succeeded in this very well. The speed with which he backed
down
>must make him one of the fastest flying chickens in Alberta.
This nonsensical perjorative is an eloquent reason for keeping all
negotiations private until there is a final agreement. You cannot invite
others to debate private negotiations and then protest when they take up
your invitation.
>> Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and address
>> the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement.
>If people wish to raise issues, I have to respond.
But they "raise issues" for the sole reason that you have invited them
to do so.
>And it is I who am now waiting for YOU, Mr Edeiken. I still do not have the
>draft contract you said you'd provide. Why not?
That is a lie. I informed you that a draft agreement would be forwarded
to my client for his comments and approval. To provide you with the draft I
have forwarded to him, would be an actional breach of a lawyer-client
relationship. A matter that is taken quite seriously in this country. I
have never made any promise that you would receive anything more than a
proposal for an agreement from my client after the agreement of my client.
David
Mike Curtis wrote:
<snip>
> Show
> me a time where I was a hypocrite, David. Please.
>
Sure, Mike.
<begin quote>
Somehow in
your small mind you equate arguing over historical events and their
differences as some kind of denial. Yes, sir, you are insignificant.'
<end quote>
David
David
Steve Mock wrote:
> David wrote:
>
> > Mike Curtis wrote:
> >
> > > David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > ><snip>
> > > >> >John Morris has also intervened in this
> > > >> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if he
> > > >> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money where
> > > >> >his mouth is.
> > > >>
> > > >> I have not intervened in anything. You have posted private e-mail for
> > > >> public discussion in a public newsgroup,
> > >
> > > Hey, David! You made a private negotiation public. you made it public
> > > so that we became aware that you hadn't even read the challenge you
> > > were accepting. Geeze! LOL!
> > >
> > > >The e-mail was sent after the sender had been informed that all email
> > > >communication on the topic would be posted.
> > >
> > > Yeah, pretty funny, huh? <smile>
> > >
> > > >> and I have responded in
> > > >> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
> > > >> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
> > > >> negotiations.
> > > >
> > > >And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
> > > >every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
> > > >genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
> > > >challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
> > > >fear?
> > >
> > > Not a thing! It's going to be your cash. This is between you and
> > > Nizkor anyway. they are the ones making the challenge you accepted. We
> > > are here laughing out loud and commenting on your wriggling. This is
> > > all quite good actually. It's almost better than a Monty Python skit.
> > >
> > > >> But my belief is that you have decided to make the negotiation process
> > > >> public with the intention of drawing fire so that you have a plausible
> > > >> reason for abandoning your public commitment.
> > > >
> > > >So what have you to lose? If you sincerely believe this, become the
> > > >counterparty. If I back down you don't lose a cent.
> > >
> > > David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> > > IHR for help supporting you financially?
> > >
> > > >> I believe you have
> > > >> realized that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of
> > > >> Himmler's speech at Posen and that you have realized you stand to lose
> > > >> the cost of the analysis because of your ill-advised, and
> > > >> all-too-typical, posturing. I also believe that you were posturing
> > > >> from the outset, that you had no intention of doing anything but
> > > >> scuttling the challenge to score what you thought might be some cheap
> > > >> points.
> > > >
> > > >Fine. So put your money where your mouth is.
> > >
> > > David, why don't you do something more constructive like ask CODOH or
> > > IHR for help supporting you financially?
> > >
> > > I think your going to need it. I do suggest you get a lawyer's advise
> > > also. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
> > >
> > > >> I am sorry if you now regret your folly. But *you* made the public
> > > >> commitment to take up the challenge, and no amount of juvenile
> > > >> taunting on your part changes that fact.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am not a party to the challenge, and I do not feel compelled to
> > > >> excuse myself from participation by reveal my financial status to the
> > > >> general public. But since it is public knowledge that I am a doctoral
> > > >> candidate at the end of his candidacy, my ability to participate is
> > > >> left to the imagination of my readers.
> > > >
> > > >Oh I'm sure Ken or Nizkor will lend you the money. After all if you are
> > > >SO certain that I am insincere, what have you to lose?
> > >
> > > Nizkor is making the challenge. John and I are enjoying the public
> > > show you are making.
> > >
> > > >Cluck cluck cluck.
> > >
> > > More like Ha ha ha.
> > >
> > > >If you believe that I am insincere, as you have stated, participation
> > > >will not cost you a cent. If the Himmler tapes are genuine, as you have
> > > >stated, participation will not cost you a cent.
> > >
> > > It isn't going to cost him a cent anyway. I can't because I don't have
> > > the financial ability to tie up good money while you play with
> > > yourself. Nizkor has made the challenge and their money is there.
> > > where's yours?
> > >
> > > >As Yale F Edeiken said: 'put up or shut up'.
> > >
> > > Yes, he said to David Michaels. LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike Curtis
> >
> > At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and put
> > your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All we need
> > now is for someone to come forward.
> >
> > I notice that YOU haven't volunteered, Michael.
>
> Why should he when Nizkor already has?
>
> Steve Mock
The issue is not whether he SHOULD. It's whether he WILL.
David
Mike Curtis
>
>
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Show
>> me a time where I was a hypocrite, David. Please.
>>
>
>Sure, Mike.
>
><begin quote>
>Somehow in
>your small mind you equate arguing over historical events and their
>differences as some kind of denial. Yes, sir, you are insignificant.'
><end quote>
>
>David
I suggest you look in the dictionary for what the word means.
LOL!
Mike Curtis
Yale F. Edeiken
David wrote in message <36E00A9A...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>> >>
>> >> >At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward
and put
>> >> >your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised.
All we need
>> >> >now is for someone to come forward.
>> >> >
>> >> >I notice that YOU haven't volunteered, Michael.
>> >>
>> >> has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
>> >> taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
>> >>
>> >> powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
>> >> interest.
>> >>
>> >> somehow legitimize the situation.
>> >>
>> >> are just here watching you public humiliation and finding it funny.
>> >> Oh, so funny.
>> >>
>> >> Do what Yale suggests:
>> >>
>> >> Ken McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to
>> >> challenge. Instead of dealing with those details you have made
>> >> unfounded charges and raised objections based solely upon your
>> >> uninformed speculation. Now you are attempting to drag yet another
>> >> party into an agreement that will concern only you and the Nizkor
>> >> Project.
>> >>
>> >> address the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >And providing entertainment for us all every time I invite you to take
the place of
>>
>> And you failed to answer my points. In fact you ignored them. So let
>> us repeat:
>>
>
>No I didn't. I responded by enquiring whether you are merely making noises
is that you are making noises.
This is an attempt at evasion.
>> There's not one thing for me to volunteer for.
>Sure there is. Put your money where your mouth is.
Which, should you decide to negotiate in good faith, is superfluous.
>> I'm a mere observer who
>> has much better things to tie his money up with. You already have a
>> taker. Doesn't Nizkor and Ken McVay count?
>Wait until I post Edeiken's email tonight. You will observe something very
interesting.
>> Why, David? What are you afraid of?
>Not you, Mike. The chances of you taking up my challenge are about as
remote as the chances of you posting any coherent argument.
>> You already have the great and
>> powerful Nizkor? You already have the great and powerful Ken McVay's
>> interest.
>Nah, Ken's fled.
This is an absolute falsehood, as you have been informed and as you well
know.
>> You don't need those of us who post to this public news group to
>> somehow legitimize the situation.
>>
>
>No, but since you decide to comment I think it is quite legitimate for me
to highlight
>the insincerity of your comments.
Unfortunately you invited comment, dispite a request that negotiations
of details remain private. Apparently you are now abandoning such
negotiations in favor of issuing random challenges to all who accept your
invitation to open debate.
I will inform you one more time, and please read this carefully, that
Ken McVay and Nizkor are proceeding in the manner set forth in the original
challenge. You claim to have read that challenge.
A further attempt to ignore the challenge that was accepted and,
instead, engage in an endless and meaningless debate is snipped.
It would be appreciated if the author of these comments would
concentrate on the matter at hand.
David
Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> David wrote in message <36E005AA...@cableinet.co.uk>...
> >
> >
> >Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> >
> >> David wrote in message <36DFD6...@cableinet.co.uk>...
> >> ><snip>
> >>
> >> >> >John Morris has also intervened in this
> >> >> >discussion, suggesting that I am not wholly serious. I invite him, if
> he
> >> >> >has the guts to do so, to stand in for McVay and put his own money
> where
> >> >> >his mouth is.
> >>
> >> >> and I have responded in
> >> >> public. I have a perfect right to respond, and, as I am not a party to
> >> >> the challenge, nothing I say should have the least affect on the
> >> >> negotiations.
> >>
> >> >And if you wish to speculate on my sincerity in participating, I have
> >> >every right to say to you -- put up or shut up. I repeat: if you
> >> >genuinely feel that I am insincere, become the counterparty in the
> >> >challenge. If I am insincere and intend to back down, what have you to
> >> >fear?
> >>
> >> Thank you for providing a convincing reason why any negotiation over
> the
> >> details of a contract should remain private. By posting private e-mails
> you
> >> have invited others to join the discussion and create diversions such as
> >> this.
> >>
> >
> >Another faction fight?
>
> Nonsense. An attempt to keep the discussion on track in spite of your
> diversions.
>
Ah.
>
> >On the contrary. In among the nonsense, Morris has made two interesting
> points,
> >which I will refer to when I respond to your email tonight. In fact, he's
> been
> >rather helpful so I well understand your irritation with his intervention.
>
> My irritation is at your behavior in attempting to make a public debate
> over a contract negotiation
>
Yes, I know you want it in private. That way you could scupper it and blame me
for it. No dice. You folks issued the challenge, and if you wish to back out of
it you can do so in public.
>
> >> The challenge (which you accepted without reading)
>
> >False. I read it.
>
> Then improve your reading skills. You were unaware of the contents of
> the challenge.
>
Not so. See the following:
>
> > I responded to it by saying I'd contact the owners of the tape
> >to see if they'd make it available. They said that they wouldn't but that
> they'd
> >let us have a copy. I will have to consult with others about this. I have
> today
> >spoken to Mr De Arman and he has given me some interesting information.
> More of
> >this in due course. I then informed Mr McVay and the newsgroup of the news
> and
> >he fled almost as fast as Mr Morris did.
>
> False. Mr. McVay has never "fled" from you. He has referred you the
> specific language of the challenge of which you were obviously unaware.
>
And said he didn't want to talk to me about it.
>
> >> was issued by Ken
> >> McVay in the name of the Nizkor Project. He is attempting to negotiatve
> an
> >> agreement with you pursuant to the terms of the original challenge.
>
> >I think we both accept that the original challenge was merely bare bones
> that
> >need to be fleshed out. That is what we are doing right now.
>
> At the present I have had no substantive input from you as to the
> details which you want in the agreement.
It's your challenge. You say you've drawn up a contract. Fine! Where is it?
> Instead you have attempted to
> involve others in the procedure.
>
Not in the least. I don't force John Morris and Mike Curtis to post here.
Indeed, I'm quite powerless to stop them! Maybe you should take it up with them
yourself . . .
> >> Instead
> >> of dealing with those details you have made unfounded charges and raised
> >> objections based solely upon your uninformed speculation. Now you are
> >> attempting to drag yet another party into an agreement that will concern
> >> only you and the Nizkor Project.
> >>
> >
> >On the contrary. The other party has expressed the view that I am
> insincere. I
> >am merely attempting to establish that it is he, not I, who is insincere. I
> >think I have succeeded in this very well. The speed with which he backed
> down
> >must make him one of the fastest flying chickens in Alberta.
>
> This nonsensical perjorative is an eloquent reason for keeping all
> negotiations private until there is a final agreement. You cannot invite
> others to debate private negotiations and then protest when they take up
> your invitation.
>
Correct. So?
>
> >> Would you please stop making these meaningless diversions and address
> >> the resolution of the negotiation of the proposed agreement.
>
> >If people wish to raise issues, I have to respond.
>
> But they "raise issues" for the sole reason that you have invited them
> to do so.
>
On the contrary. They wanted to score cheap propaganda points. Unfortunately
they rather backfired, didn't they!
>
> >And it is I who am now waiting for YOU, Mr Edeiken. I still do not have the
> >draft contract you said you'd provide. Why not?
>
> That is a lie.
It is not. Do you deny that you said you'd do a draft contract? Yes or no?
> I informed you that a draft agreement would be forwarded
> to my client for his comments and approval.
So? It's taking him a long time to read it. Where is it, Mr E? Has he read it
yet?
> To provide you with the draft I
> have forwarded to him, would be an actional breach of a lawyer-client
> relationship.
Well tell him to hurry up and read it.
> A matter that is taken quite seriously in this country. I
> have never made any promise that you would receive anything more than a
> proposal for an agreement from my client after the agreement of my client.
>
So far I haven't received anything except hot air.
>
> --YFE
>
> The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
> The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
> The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
> The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
David
David
Mike Curtis wrote:
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Mike Curtis wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> Show
> >> me a time where I was a hypocrite, David. Please.
> >>
> >
> >Sure, Mike.
> >
> ><begin quote>
> >Somehow in
> >your small mind you equate arguing over historical events and their
> >differences as some kind of denial. Yes, sir, you are insignificant.'
> ><end quote>
> >
> >David
>
> I suggest you look in the dictionary for what the word means.
>
> LOL!
> Mike Curtis
>
>
What do *you* think it means, Mr C? Someone who always practises what he
preaches, eh?
David
Yale F. Edeiken
David wrote in message <36E0089B...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>
>
>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>
>> David wrote in message <36E0017E...@cableinet.co.uk>...
>>
>> >At the moment I'm just waiting for one of you people to come forward and
>> put
>> >your money where your mouth is. My money's ready. My pen is poised. All
we
>> need
>> >now is for someone to come forward.
>>
>> challenge.
>>
>
>I still don't have a draft contract, Mr E. All I see is people fleeing in
all
>directions!
It should be noted that it is less than a day since a draft was
submitted to my client.
>> This accusation is, as you well know, completely false.
>Well prove it by posting the draft contract.
As you have repeatedly been informed, I will not post a draft of what I
consider part of a private negotiation. You have also been informed that to
do as you suggest would be a violation of my legal duty. You will receive
nothing until my client has an opportunity to review and approves the draft.
As you have protested in the past about Nizkor rushing the negotiation
by setting a proposed date for signature, your unwillingness to allow my
client to review and approve the draft speaks as eloquenty as to your lack
of good as does your insistence that I unilaterally violate the clear law
relating to lawyer-client relations.
Gord McFee
David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[deleted]
> Thank you for your little fantasy, Mr Morris. I have now received an
> email from Edeiken, which I note he has not published.
That's probably because it is a private communication on behalf of his
client. You should have it looked at by your lawyer.
> I will look at
> this more closely to night and post it and my response here.
As you wish, although I suggest you consult your lawyer first. Very bad
form to post private communications.
> As a matter of interest, Mr Morris, since you have seen fit to pronounce
> on this issue, whether YOU, rather than Nizkor, would like to be the
> 'other party' in this matter? Or don't you have the balls?
Mr Morris didn't accept the challenge. You said you did. We shall see
who has balls and who is a troll.
> As a certain gentleman from Allentown said, 'put up or shut up'.
We are waiting.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
fled...@my-dejanews.com
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