Dear Steve Fishman - just what ARE you up to these days?
arnie lerma - www.lermanet.com
<wayo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Nomen Nescio" <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message
>news:0bea51123b726935...@dizum.com...
>
>> From: Lisa Gibson [ flash45 on undernet #scientologylies ]
><Lisa_...@newsguy.com>
>> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
>> Subject: Back to the Seventies - the deaths of Scientologists David
>Sandweiss and Louie Pagliaro
>> Date: 11 Sep 2000 23:34:02 -0700
>> Organization: lermanet.com
>> Lines: 121
>> Message-ID: <8pkioq$2j...@edrn.newsguy.com>
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-246.newsdawg.com
>
>
>> Back to the Seventies
>> by Lisa Gibson
>
>> Regarding Louie Pagliaro
>
>> I dated Louie for a short time when I was on staff in HCO [ HCO is what
>> scintologists call the "ethics" department that also sends mail out and
>routes
>> mail coming in ] at Las Vegas [ scientology] org.
>> Louie was not on staff but was a public "OT"
>> I was told to stop seeing him because he was not a 'staff member'.
>> I did so
>
>> He had a problem with that and I heard later he requested a refund and
>started
>> questioning OT levels.
>> He told me that he had spent 50,000 in Scientology going up the bridge I
>had
>> been on staff about 4 months.
>> It was there that I met my future husband David Sandweiss
>> He had been in Scientology for years
>> We both left Scientology and got married Sometime later. Chuck and
>Madeline
>> 'Maddy' Reese of the Go [ Guardians Office now called OSA ]came to out to
>our
>> apartment.
>> They wanted us to ruin the career of a local Psychiatrist
>> Chuck Reese made the comment that I could be driving a cadillac just like he did.
>> In the meantime Louie Pagliaro had started living with an OT Showgirl named Pat.
>> She went on the road with the show. I heard they had befriended a homeless
>man.
>> Louie was later found murdered.
>> Cut up and stuffed in a plastic bag in his living room
>> The police were looking for the "homeless guy"
>
>And you don't think it was easier for the Guardian's Office to murder Louie
>than to refund his $50,000?
Louie threatened to take OTIII to the media....
In RTC vs Lerma Earle Cooley threatened to "TURN THE WASHINGTON
POSTS OFFICES UPSIDE DOWN" in order to get that one xerox copy that I
had, that I had given to the Wash Post.
>
>Lisa, you are still very naive.
>
>> I realized then that David said those mean things to protect me
>> After I arrived in Seattle Washington and then heard that David
>Sandweiss,
>> my ex-husband had blown his brains out. I also found out years later that
>David
>> died 2 months after Quentin was found dead in his car "in the desert"
>
>Why would David kill himself? Over Quentin? Over Lisa? I don't think so!
David had been caught breaking into a psychiatrists office ( for OSA
) to steal documents... Im convinced they still do this, they got a
hold of Bob Minton's files from his psych;'s office too.. somehow...
The thing Scientology goes completely BERSERK about, is covering up
their involvlement or connection to real CRIMES.
That is why they sent Jack Dirmann into Reed Slatkin's office for ,
was it overnight? or a whole day? to go through Reed's files and clean
out any EVIDENCE of Scientology MANAGEMENTS connection to Scientology.
When there is a smoking gun connection to crimes that have no
statutory limit - as in Quentin Hubbard's murder or David Sanweiss's
induced suicide or murder, there is NO LIMIT to how far and how long
scientology will try to cloud the issues and destroy those involved
who might testify against them.
Ive oftened wondered just what it is that you know about scn that you
have used to keep yourself alive all these years....that is, if
anything were to happen to you would that data go to the right places?
There is a Private Investigator under indictment in LA now for
wiretapping... a guy named Pelicano... but nevermind...
>
>> For years I thought I was alone and never told anyone until 1996 when I
>thought
>> I needed to protect my sister Lavenda She took my story and twisted
>things
>> around and used it to gain credibility with Arnie Lerma
>
>Lavenda did not need to gain "credibility" with Arnie Lerma because she
She used the suitable guise that "I am that gal you met in 1971 in
las vegas " to gain my trust so that I would listen to her. Her
Affidavit, which I had previously webbed, when I found out just how
full of shit she really was, was the only affidavit Ive ever removed
from lermanet.com after I became convinced the person signing it was
less than a reliable source..
She convinced Victoria that she was "psychic", but never has told her
that her own daughter was one of Victoria's long time freinds, for
many years, and Lavenda used data from her own daughter to convince
Victoria that Lavenda was a "real psychic"... and the show goes on....
Horseshit, you sound to me like you have an agenda mr Fishman, What
the hell are you up to?
>(mistakenly) has believed for the last 20 years that Arnie Lerma and Artie
>Maren of the Las Vegas Org were one and the same person. Lavenda was raped
>by Artie Maren and tried to discredit Arnie Lerma for it.
>It is just the
>opposite of what Lisa wrote.
What is the opposite? or is what you are the saying the opposite of
the truth?
>
Nice mix of truth and lies, Lisa Gibson was the gal I met in Las
Vegas... in 1971 or so
Lavenda told me SHE was that gal ( suitable guise ) in order to gain
my trust.
Lisa came forward after she learned that her sister was again up to
something no good.
>> She stole my identity, and made him think she was me
This is what occurred, after meeting both of them,
I can tell you that I am 100% sure Lisa Gibson is the gal I met way
back when
>>Also at the time she
>was
>> associating with Steven Fishman again - who in my opinion has worked both
>sides
>> of the street for many years just as Lavenda. worked both sides of the
>street
>
>No, the one thing I can say about Lavenda is that she NEVER compromised her
>principles and NEVER worked for Scientology after she left. She was wrong
really? Then why would she be mailed a signed letter from OSA
asking her to sue you? Why would they feel this was possible,
appropriate or do-able?
>about Arnie/Artie, but she believes it and no one, not I nor anyone else,
>can convince her otherwise. But she did NOT work "both sides of the
>street", and neither did I.
>
>> Think what you wish the whole of the truth will all come out sooner or
>later
>
>> Lisa Gibson
>
>> PS: In 1996 while I was on the web
>> I also saw a picture of Steven Fishman
>> He was the same man in the hotel that night with Quentin Hubbard
>
>Isn't that interesting?
>
>OSA spent hundreds of thousands of dollars re-writing my history with
>Scientology for the benefit of defending the Fishman/Geertz case, claiming
>that I joined Scientology in 1986, when here we have someone who puts me in
>a hotel with Quentin Hubbard ten years earlier in 1976! Velly interesting.
>Nevertheless, I never met Quentin Hubbard. I did not join Scientology until
>1979.
Your deposition by Moxon in RTC vs Lerma, if your answers were
truthful, is not terribly flattering, that is why it is has not been
webbed by me.
>
>> I heard rumors David was Quentin's lover for some time, i don't belieive
>it
>> When I saw Quentin, he was very sad.
>
>Of course Quentin was sad. His father hated him, and somehow he must have
>known he was in grave danger.
Joe Lisa seemed to hint, when he called into a radio show I was doing
as a call in caller, that Mary Sue was convinced that it was a
murder, as Joe Lisa was... and that perhaps L Ron Hubbard ordered the
murder of his own son.
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/quentincoroner.htm
"Arnie Lerma: During a talk radio show I was doing about Scientology a
man called in, said that he was turning the dial and heard scientology
mentioned. He said his name was Joe Leisa, I later found out that
there was a Joe Leisa listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in the US
vs Mary Sue Hubbard criminal trial of 1982. Joe told the following
story:
"Mary Sue Hubbard hired me to find out what happenned to Quentin. He
was found in the desert, with a hose running from the exhaust to the
drivers window which was cracked open to accept the hose, the motor
was idling. The sand around the car had been brushed clean of all
markings. In the trunk was a carpet runner. Forensic examination
proved that is contained hairs belonging to Quentin Hubbard on it"
Joe Liesa suggested that Quentin would have had been immobilized
elswhere, transported to the site in the desert rolled up in the
carpet runner in the trunk, then the event staged to look like a
suicide.
I asked Joe if he was still in Scientology. He didn't answer directly,
but said that he stopped by and bought some of Hubbards books not too
long ago "
>
>Steve Fishman
>xe...@ix.netcom.com
>
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
Support http://www.lermanet.com - mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
Steve Fishman
"arnie lerma - www.lermanet.com" <ale...@nospam.bellatlantic.net> wrote in
message news:o94uuvc2vtnk8vak6...@4ax.com...
> The thing Scientology goes completely BERSERK about, is covering up
> their involvlement or connection to real CRIMES.
> That is why they sent Jack Dirmann into Reed Slatkin's office for ,
> was it overnight? or a whole day? to go through Reed's files and clean
> out any EVIDENCE of Scientology MANAGEMENTS connection to Scientology.
> When there is a smoking gun connection to crimes that have no
> statutory limit - as in Quentin Hubbard's murder or David Sanweiss's
> induced suicide or murder, there is NO LIMIT to how far and how long
> scientology will try to cloud the issues and destroy those involved
> who might testify against them.
> Ive oftened wondered just what it is that you know about scn that you
> have used to keep yourself alive all these years....that is, if
> anything were to happen to you would that data go to the right places?
The only person who I fully trust to safeguard whatever information there
may be to safeguard without getting very specific is Graham Berry. And all
of that is covered under the attorney-client privilege. I am answering your
question without saying anything more about it because you asked.
> There is a Private Investigator under indictment in LA now for
> wiretapping... a guy named Pelicano... but nevermind...
I don't know him.
> Horseshit, you sound to me like you have an agenda mr Fishman, What
> the hell are you up to?
Nothing more than wanting Lavenda to have the justice that decades never
provided her.
>> >(mistakenly) has believed for the last 20 years that Arnie Lerma and
Artie
>> >Maren of the Las Vegas Org were one and the same person. Lavenda was
raped
>> >by Artie Maren and tried to discredit Arnie Lerma for it.
>> >It is just the
>> >opposite of what Lisa wrote.
> What is the opposite? or is what you are the saying the opposite of
> the truth?
It is my opinion that Lisa convinced Lavenda that you and Artie Maren were
one and the same person, because when each of you had sex with her, each of
you told her, "Don't Move!". This psychological imprint, together with
Lisa's attempt to drive her sister insane, contributed to Lavenda's false
belief. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but this is my opinion on
what happened, based upon what Lavenda has told me.
> Nice mix of truth and lies, Lisa Gibson was the gal I met in Las
> Vegas... in 1971 or so
Only you would know, and if you say it was Lisa, then it was Lisa. They
still sound identical, and when Lavenda was thin, they looked more like
twins than like sisters. Big difference in their DNA though....
> Lavenda told me SHE was that gal ( suitable guise ) in order to gain
> my trust.
The only thing that is important is what you believe to be true.
> Lisa came forward after she learned that her sister was again up to
> something no good.
According to Lavenda, it was Lisa causing problems to her.
> >>Also at the time she was associating with Steven Fishman again - who in
my opinion has worked both
> >>sides of the street for many years just as Lavenda. worked both sides
of the street
I never stopped associating with Lavenda. Secondly, this was Lisa's
OPINION. But there is no truth to it.
> >No, the one thing I can say about Lavenda is that she NEVER compromised
her
> >principles and NEVER worked for Scientology after she left. She was
wrong
> really? Then why would she be mailed a signed letter from OSA
> asking her to sue you? Why would they feel this was possible,
> appropriate or do-able?
Because OSA tried to convince Lavenda that I posted things on the Internet
in her name. All Lavenda has ever wanted was to be a good mother to her son
and be left alone. OSA constantly infiltrated her workplace, and forced her
to move from Washington State, and then caught up with her in New Mexico,
and finally for the past year and a half they have not been torturing her.
Lavenda is a resilient person with a positive attitude, and she got her real
estate license and sells timeshares and is doing fine. No matter how much I
lament over it, I doubt if I could ever make up for the harm I caused her
when I was still in Scientology. Although we are incompatible, (she is an
artist and I put everything in alphabetical order and size place), I have
loved Lavenda for many years and I believe I always will. If her sister and
everyone else (including the cult) would just leave her alone and allow her
to live in peace, what would be the harm?
> Joe Lisa seemed to hint, when he called into a radio show I was doing
> as a call in caller, that Mary Sue was convinced that it was a
> murder, as Joe Lisa was... and that perhaps L Ron Hubbard ordered the
> murder of his own son.
Yes, but the Las Vegas Org staff member who I was told did it for the fat
bastard has never been punished, according to what I have been told, but
instead received a nice $400,000 settlement from Scientology back in 1977 (a
real good clue). But I do not intend to dredge up a can of worms that
occurred prior to my joining the cult, since it will always be hearsay, and
that is where I am going to let it be. There is nothing further I can do
about it, not unless the person who told me about it is willing to come
forward, which is not the case. It is not possible for me to corroborate
anything based upon what someone else told me. I have little or no
credibility thanks to what happened to me in Scientology and my having gone
into agreement with changing my history and sabotaging my own defense "the
greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics" and all, and the "hidden
why" has may have more to do with events which occurred prior to 1979 than
with me, and this is where I am going to let it rest. Sometimes when
Scientology has you investigate someone (i.e. Lavenda), you find out way
more than you ever wanted to know, and certain secrets that you have been
told have to be taken to the grave (once safely deposited with your
attorney).
> "Mary Sue Hubbard hired me to find out what happenned to Quentin. He
> was found in the desert, with a hose running from the exhaust to the
> drivers window which was cracked open to accept the hose, the motor
> was idling. The sand around the car had been brushed clean of all
> markings. In the trunk was a carpet runner. Forensic examination
> proved that is contained hairs belonging to Quentin Hubbard on it"
> Joe Liesa suggested that Quentin would have had been immobilized
> elswhere, transported to the site in the desert rolled up in the
> carpet runner in the trunk, then the event staged to look like a
> suicide.
> I asked Joe if he was still in Scientology. He didn't answer directly,
> but said that he stopped by and bought some of Hubbards books not too
> long ago "
Well, besides all of this calamity, Arnie, I hope life has been treating you
well. My best to you and to those you love for the New Year.
Steve Fishman
xe...@ix.netcom.com
arnie lerma - www.lermanet.com
<wayo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Well, leave me out of anything to do with Lavenda
IMO she is a con and a nut
>>> >(mistakenly) has believed for the last 20 years that Arnie Lerma and
>Artie
>>> >Maren of the Las Vegas Org were one and the same person. Lavenda was
>raped
>>> >by Artie Maren and tried to discredit Arnie Lerma for it.
>
>>> >It is just the
>>> >opposite of what Lisa wrote.
>
>> What is the opposite? or is what you are the saying the opposite of
>> the truth?
>
>It is my opinion that Lisa convinced Lavenda that you and Artie Maren were
>one and the same person, because when each of you had sex with her, each of
>you told her, "Don't Move!". This psychological imprint, together with
>Lisa's attempt to drive her sister insane, contributed to Lavenda's false
>belief. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but this is my opinion on
>what happened, based upon what Lavenda has told me.
>
>> Nice mix of truth and lies, Lisa Gibson was the gal I met in Las
>> Vegas... in 1971 or so
>
>Only you would know, and if you say it was Lisa, then it was Lisa. They
>still sound identical, and when Lavenda was thin, they looked more like
>twins than like sisters. Big difference in their DNA though....
whatever, the Lisa Gibson lady
>
>> Lavenda told me SHE was that gal ( suitable guise ) in order to gain
>> my trust.
>
>The only thing that is important is what you believe to be true.
>
>> Lisa came forward after she learned that her sister was again up to
>> something no good.
>
>According to Lavenda, it was Lisa causing problems to her.
>
>> >>Also at the time she was associating with Steven Fishman again - who in
>my opinion has worked both
>> >>sides of the street for many years just as Lavenda. worked both sides
>of the street
>
>I never stopped associating with Lavenda. Secondly, this was Lisa's
>OPINION. But there is no truth to it.
well, look steve, I dont have time for whacko crap, and if yer
listening to lavenda then its crap, cya
Arnie