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Jack Craver

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Feb 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/28/99
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Jack Craver

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Feb 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/28/99
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Jack Craver

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Feb 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/28/99
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Reposter

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Feb 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/28/99
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>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>my account of my isolation by scientology is webbed at:
>>
>>http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm
>>
>>~~~~~
>>
>>my apology to anyone writing to me at my dejanews address....
>>i've been unable to access this email, and so cannot reply...
>>
>>~madwog~

In article <36da2285...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>, inm...@bellsouth.net
says...
>
>Hello -
>When and where did this happen?
>
>jack

An Isolation survivor speaks

I cannot deny anyone's religion. But some things by any standard or for any
reason are wrong.

Earlier this year I heard about a woman who died. Some of the details were
frighteningly similar to something that I had gone through, once upon a time.
Terrifying. Humiliating.

I'm writing in hopes of helping to prevent this sort of thing from ever
happening again.

I was a teenager when a buddy called to tell me about Scientology. He didn't
know much about it, but another friend had said that "a few of us should check
it out" and if it was really "cool", we would "turn everyone on to it". Three of
us checked it out. I don't know what the other two decided -- we lost track of
each other over the years.

... I had my own idea of doing the "best for the most", so my first Scientology
salesperson showed me a quote from a book about ethics, about "the greatest good
for the greatest number", which dovetailed with my idea rather nicely.

When I asked about a large cross hanging on the wall of this Scientology place,
I was told that scie- was a religion and that it was ok if I didn't agree with
that, I would still be welcome.

My parents were both well educated professionals, and I was put on a college
track from elementary school on. Unfortunately, my parents, in spite of phi beta
kappa keys, various degrees and invitations to mensa, were not happy people. I
was somewhat lost as a teenager.

I was invited to leave home if I didn't decide between further schooling or
working... but I didn't have any place else to go.

Scie- encouraged me to leave home. One of my three buddies and I got a room
together. I got a part time job in a law office. We both studied scie-.

After a year or so, a recruiter offered me a job in another city. I wanted to
learn, gain competence, and possibly gain a bit of confidence as well.

My best friend and I married, worked together, had a child and later amicably
divorced.

For years, I worked long hours with an intelligent, talented and idealistic
group of people. I didn't get to do the kind of work I would have preferred, but
I did become quite responsible and competent. The organization I worked for was
owned by the scie- church.

I was busy doing my job, making contacts, looking to the future and following
work policy.

There was no one to take my place if I was sick, so I worked even when ill (as
most of us did) even though this was against corporate policy.

After I pointed out that this was wrong, that if I was sick I shouldn't be
working, my contract was terminated without notice. I happened to be ill with a
bad case of the flu and/or walking pneumonia at the time.

I was instructed to go to a scie- liason office to get counseling to get better,
so I went. The counseling did not materialize over the next day or two, I was
sicker than a dog, and the liason office was pressing me to run various errands.
I got fed up, put my foot down, made my displeasure very clear and went home.

My home was a small one room apartment in a scie- owned building. It was a room
with two large windows. My front door was near a fire escape. Inside was a coat
closet I'd converted into a kitchenette. The wall between the bathroom door and
my front door was filled with shelves. There were books, plants, my child's
goldfish bowl and gifts from friends, and I intended to put a phone there once I
got around to getting one installed.

Under one window was my antique trunk with a huge plant, my coffee maker and my
favorite mugs. under the other window was my fold out couch with a colorful
Indian blanket, with my child's bed nearby.

The wall by my little kitchen was taken up by cabinets, which doubled as closet
and storage space. Atop the cabinets were my tv, radio and more plants.

I liked my place... I didn't know what would happen, since I'd been fired by
scie- and they owned it, but I was happy to be home. I ran water through my
coffee maker to heat, to mix with a cold remedy a downstairs neighbor lady had
given to me.

Of my closest friends, one was on honeymoon, one was in another state and one
couple was on their way out of the country. I never saw them again, nor did I
ever again see the people I'd worked most closely with. My child was out of
state on vacation with my ex-spouse.

I changed into my dressing gown, made myself comfy, turned on my radio, went
over my correspondence, then decided to go downstairs to our little resident's
"library", to find something I hadn't read yet.

There was a man outside my door, sitting on a chair and reading a newspaper. The
hallway in front of my place was considered residential and the man wasn't
scary, but still, the situation was odd; the hour was quite late and he didn't
speak to me... however, the man did give me section of his paper--which saved me
a trip downstairs.

I unfolded my couch, read and returned the paper, then dozed off.

When I awoke, it was still dark. I looked out my door. There was another man in
the hallway. He sat on a chair by the fire escape. He was familiar to me. I
tried to talk with him, but he said nothing. I tried gently kidding around with
him. He was not at all threatening and actually seemed to start to smile, but he
did not speak.

I hadn't planned on going anywhere until I'd rested and recovered from my flu.

Whenever I opened the door, there was someone there... sometimes two. If people
wanted to come to my door, they were welcome. If they wanted to visit, that was
ok. But why were these nice non-threatening people coming over? Did they think
my door was at the end of a bloody rainbow? Why wouldn't they speak? This began
to make me quite unhappy... maybe they can't speak? Am I in the middle of a
"Twilight Zone" episode? Am I crazy? What's going on?

I remember trying to converse with one fellow. He didn't speak. I tried telling
him stories. He didn't speak. I remember that he brought me food once, cold
cream of wheat on a paper plate with a puddle of honey in the middle. I was
hungry and called it ambrosia...

Different people came to my door. They didn't speak. This went on for some time.
My attempts at communication wore me out. I tried to be polite. I was getting
confused and sad.

I ran out of tissue. I needed to blow my nose. I had my quilt wrapped around me,
felt awful, and was crying. I opened my door and asked someone for a hanky,
smiled through my tears and made a lame joke about my quilt being too big to be
a hanky. There were a couple of people in the hall; they didn't speak, didn't
smile, just looked at me. I felt stupid.

I got more and more confused.

I lost track of the order in which events were occurring.

At one point I found a note, it said that if I wanted anything, to put it in
writing. I may have written requests, I may have even written stories...

I was embarrassed. I'd lost my brush and couldn't get the tangles out of my hair
after washing it. A girl I had been acquainted with came in... she whispered
that she wasn't supposed to speak to me. She started to untangle my hair with
her brush, but a man came in and she left.

At some point, two men started removing my belongings from my home. It didn't
matter if I was clothed or not, it didn't matter that I protested, it didn't
even matter when I jumped a fellow - he just pinned me down. They would not stop
taking my things. I lost my temper, I swore mightily at them; I finally started
throwing things at them, yelling at the top of my lungs "F--- you - if you want
it, take it, it's yours!!" They headed for the door.

I didn't want those unwelcome 'movers' to get my best sheet set, so stuffed them
out of my window in hopes that a bag lady would find them instead. I got caught
and they pulled me down along with my curtains. The large plant fell and the
dirt spilled out.

It was a mess. I sobbed, opened up my trunk, and crawled into it along with my
blanket. My home was no longer a safe place.

I could not leave. I tried. I could not fight, sneak by, or fool anyone into
letting me leave. Once I actually got as far as the stairs.

I was surprised to see that "pc destimulating" (scientology words) were written
on notes that were taped to the walls in the hallway.

Once, someone with a bucket started cleaning the walls of my now somewhat empty
apartment. I'd given up.

My couch wound up in the middle of the floor.

At one point I awoke to find a woman with a hypodermic needle leaning over me...
she pulled the needle out of my arm, taking a length of rubber with it... in my
weariness, with my poor fuzzy vision, it looked kind of like a vein coming out
of my arm along with the needle... I commented on how strange that looked.

I did not know what was going on. Scientology was all for communication, and
completely against drugs... it was for helping people--sick or able--to get even
better.

But things did not get better.


Part 2

In my previous letter, I mentioned a few brief highlights of my first missing
weeks. I don't know how long I was in isolation. A relative later told me I was
"missing for a couple of months".

...cutting a person off from the world without explanation doesn't sound
particularly helpful...

The madness continues. Part two follows.

~~~~~~~~~~

My cozy home had become an unfamiliar and inescapable trap.

The lack of communication was spooky. Speechless "zombies" haunted my door.
Sometimes they brought food to me -- sometimes it was edible and sometimes not.

After a week or two of this silent watch treatment, my dreams began to seem more
real.

I was weak from my bout with the flu, from trying to fight, from trying and
failing to understand what was happening, from going back and forth from anger
to terror, from nightmare to deepest depression.

When given the opportunity, I was so pleased to be able to leave - to go for a
drive. Maybe I was going to get the counseling I was supposed to get... I'd
heard that scie- could even improve poor vision.

My destination turned out to be a room with a boarded up window. There was a
mattress on the floor and a pillow, and a small bathroom with toilet and sink.

I was locked in.

I tried to keep myself occupied... I could practice my workout routine, I could
practice the lyrics my singing partner had written, I could explore the holes in
the walls, play in the sink... pound on the locked door...

I had access to water from the sink tap, but I was getting so hungry. No one
answered my knocks on the door. Shouting brought no one. I leaned against the
door and slowly sank to the floor. I wrapped my arms around my knees and rocked
back and forth as I made up and softly sang a little song about potato chips.

I slept as much as I could, escaped into dreams as much as I could. After a
while, my dreams didn't stop even after waking... which would have been fine if
none of my dreams had been nightmares...

I had a horrible nightmare that my child had died in blood, in a bathtub, as I
helplessly watched.

I didn't know how long I slept or how long I was awake. I didn't know what time
it was, what day it was. I don’t know how long I was there.

I remember talking to some bubble people. I had a foggy notion that they were my
cells, partial personalities - genetic memory? I nick-named one bubble/cell
person "Isaac"...

I appropriated bits and pieces of novels for dream material.

It was silly to even attempt to pry a board from a window with only my
fingernails. Maybe I could tear a strip from my clothing and hang myself... if
there was anything high enough to hang myself from...

I could pray, and I did.

I had dreams that ranged from war, to Santa Claus, to space opera.

I tried to bathe in the sink, I tried drying off with paper towel, or was it the
white stuffing from the pillow? Maybe I could make a white wig and beard and
pretend to be Santa Claus. (Santa had figured in some of my nicer dreams.)

I wondered about my best friends, and worried about one who had been ill.

I could only worry and hope that a relative's cancer was not terminal.

One young watcher came in and kissed me on the lips.

I just had guards or watchers. (And room service... gee thanks, but this dry and
shriveled hot dog is beyond my ability to pretend it's ambrosia...)

I was thoroughly terrified of my two main watchers. One was fair and fat, the
other dark and trim. When one of them escorted a large dark man into the room, I
cowered on my mattress, but they took no action, just looked at me.

I would be legally blind without corrective lenses, so without glasses, my
silent watchers were blurry and ghost-like...

I thought I heard a bit of music once.

Time passed slowly. It was intolerable... hours, days, minutes, weeks... I
couldn't tell how much time was passing.

No contact with my family, my friends or my life.

The only one who spoke to me was me.

Until, at one point, a person showed up, a nice fellow. I actually knew him, he
was a scie- staff member, a counselor. We started to have a counseling session,
but I was hungry, scared and tired. He gave me vitamins. Lots of vitamins.

Finally, I got to leave with him. Thank God.

It was lovely outside. It was dark, maybe dusk. I tried to make pleasant
conversation... I wanted to be sure I did nothing wrong. I wanted him to
continue to be nice to me.

He took me to his home; he and his wife had made a shabby old apartment into a
unique and lovely place. I was very apologetic about my appearance. I got to
take a shower... there was actually shampoo, and conditioner.

I was given a change of clothes. His wife kindly tried combing the tangles out
of my hair as I sat in a chair near a fan. She spoke softly as she worked and
accepted my apology for using so much of her conditioner. She couldn't get out
all of the tangles, but brushed my hair back as best she could.

At their small kitchen table we had bread and strawberry jam. It was so so good!

They made up a place for me to sleep, next to their bed.

I had sweet dreams; I dreamt that they had a lovely baby and that I sang
lullabies to it...

In the morning, the nice couple had to leave for work. Then the main watchers
from the room with the boarded up window showed up unexpectedly. I freaked -- I
must have looked like a gibbering idiot. I probably fell apart... I don't
remember leaving...

...But I wound up in what appeared to have been a large supply closet. No
windows. No fan. No toilet facilities. Big enough for a mattress with a bit of
room to spare. There was a flickering ceiling light with a wall switch that I
could turn on and off. I crumpled up a sheet in a corner to use as a litter box.

Time collapses and folds when there is nothing to gauge it by.

~~~~~~~

The story will continue in another letter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Scientology "contains a therapeutic technique with which can be treated all
inorganic mental ills and all organic psychosomatic ills, with assurance of
complete cure..." so wrote the founder of Scie-. (That's a quote from a glossy
brochure I have next to my computer.)


Part 3

to you who have responded to my posts - thank you. <=

(has anyone reading this researched the *effects* of involuntary & unexplained
isolation or captivity on a human being...?)

I've no quibble with individual scientologists. For the most part, they seemed
to be idealistic people who would not condone what happened to Lisa McP...
unfortunately, they would also, in all probability, not believe that such a
thing could happen, and so would not correct it.

The CoS does not make amends for harm done.

So... it is up to 'outsiders' to confront the facts and do best to prevent any
future such atrocities.

...I wish to see the practice of 'isolation' cancelled.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~ more madness ~~

At first, at my home, I was too ill (flu) to be upset that my visitors could not
or would not speak. It just added to the sense of unreality that comes over me
along with a fever. As time went on, the silence got on my nerves, it got
spookier, more upsetting, infuriating, and, finally, terrifying...

After a number of weeks, I wound up in a large closet, or so it appeared. One
wall was recessed and seemed to be about the right size for a large
industrial-sized metal shelving unit. Although this room may have been an oddly
shaped and very small office, I will generally refer to it as 'the closet'.

It was in the closet that I finally lost hope of all rescue. My requests to see
any of my friends went unacknowledged, and/or ignored...

I tried to convince my watchers that I did *not* live here, that this place was
not my home.

I tried to convince my watchers that I was someone else - that they had the
wrong person.

My attempts at escape (when the closet door was opened), resulted in my face,
body or limb(s) being slammed in the door... this mostly occurred when I tried
to fight one particular watcher - an individual with grey hair whom I named the
'Robot' - a person who most terrified me.

There was a time or times that I used a wadded up sheet as a litter box. I seem
to recall, at one point, hurling the used sheet at a watcher. There was no
toilet in the closet.

A couple of roaches passed through my closet, they wouldn't speak to me either,
and I didn't want to touch them, but I gave them each a name...

Sometimes I was escorted to a rest-room near my closet. I was watched as I
showered or relieved myself.

Once I was given some edible food - I didn't have to pretend, it actually tasted
good. It was chicken. I wished I could make a hole in the mattress so I could
hide some for later... I was often hungry.

During one excursion to the restroom, I found and palmed a crayon. I 'decorated'
my walls with it. I tried to write my address on the wall near the door. I wrote
bits of poetry and other graffiti. (Of course, this wouldn't help me when I
tried to pretend I was someone else... but then, I wasn't thinking clearly...) I
found a make-up stick of some sort once, too.

I could not leave with my body, so I tried to leave without it... Unfortunately,
whenever I 'came back' (or woke up), my body was still in the closet. I remember
feeling sorry for my poor body, and feeling guilty for trying to leave it
behind, all alone...

I remember trying very hard to reach some of my upper level scie- friends with
telepathy, but as far as I know, it didn't work (various types of extrasensory
perception were supposed to be acquired on scie- upper levels). I had really
enjoyed the idea of ESP and had high hopes about the possibilities.

Finally I started making threats. I still could not tell if my watchers could
understand a single thing I said... Of course, I couldn't tell if I was making
sense anymore, either, but that didn't stop me from trying...

It was so uncomfortable in that little room - there was a mattress on the floor,
but it seemed to have bed bugs - the floor was very hard, but it was sometimes
cool...

Sometimes I was fed, sometimes I wasn't. Sometimes I was escorted to a toilet,
some times not. There didn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to what happened
when. No clock, no calendar, no explanation.

I had a horrible nightmare that I was being eaten inside and out by cock
roaches...

I had one nice dream about time, about happy endings...

I so much wanted something good to happen, but the only good things happened in
my dreams... sometimes.

Then, one time, I woke to find a fan. "A present!" I joyfully and tearfully
thought. It looked brand-new. It had ribbons tied to the front grill, that
fluttered in its breeze... I was like a little kid, I was so happy to get a
present.

Funny. I may already have been completely nuts by then, but it was around this
time that I broke. I had a literal physical sensation in my head of breaking...
like a child's clock going SNAP... the crippled minute hand going back and
forth...CLICK crunch CLICK... instead of smoothly tick-tocking clockwise...

I was given a haircut - I felt badly about being such a mess...

Then a woman showed up... and when I asked her who she was, she actually SPOKE!
She told me her name. I asked her if she was CoS staff and she said "no", that
she was a student from a local church. When I asked her if she knew what had
been happening she said "no". I asked her if she knew what was going on - she
said "no", she was there to be my counselor.

I'm sure I burbled and babbled - I was so thrilled by the prospect of actual
conversation & counseling.

The woman even brought me edible food. Real restaurant food. But I could only
eat a little bit at a time, no matter how much I wanted to wolf it all down... I
felt like crying at the waste of such good food.... I'd been hungry for too
long, couldn't hold much...

I was even given a book - whereupon I discovered that I could no longer read.
(Gawdawful news for a bookworm!)

The counseling was disappointing - it seemed to consist of page after page of
questions about scie-, and what I would say about scie- and related subjects if
I was ever asked. Of course, I had nothing bad to say about scientology.

The silent treatment I had been subjected to was not any brand of scientology
that I had ever read about. The counselor said she didn't know what had been
happening, and I certainly did not understand it. The whole situation of being
cut off from communication for so long was too unbelievable... nothing like the
scie- that I had learned of...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A relative later told me that I had been "missing for a couple of months"...
that I "looked like a concentration camp victim - skin and bones and covered
with bruises."

I did wind up in a hospital, and when, at times, I was asked why I was there, I
didn't know. I'd had some good friends who were scientologists, and I no longer
associated my abduction with the CoS. I even went to a local scie- place for a
visit once.

At the hospital I was told I was a drug addict. I was not believed when I said I
wasn't... I never have been. ... I was told that drugs were found in my blood. I
was not allowed to refuse medication - I had signed away my rights after signing
a contract that I could not read... I'd gone from the fire into the frying
pan...

I guess the hospital couldn't quite figure out what was wrong. One doctor who
later looked at my chart said "my god, you were a real guinea pig, weren't you?"
(When he asked me what had happened, I didn't know...)

I was treated as an indigent adult, and told that I was gravely and permanently
disabled.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Scientology claims to better conditions, does it not?

But instead of learning from the medical community and trying to help improve
the mental health field, the CoS indiscriminately attacks the entire field.

And I lost my life as I knew it - and Lisa McPherson is dead.

mad...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
my account of my isolation by scientology is webbed at:

http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm

~~~~~

my apology to anyone writing to me at my dejanews address....
i've been unable to access this email, and so cannot reply...

~madwog~


-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
Kris Baker wrote:
>
> Sounds to me that there's a troll here, attempting to posit
> him/herself as Mr. Maxson.

Complaints regarding the troll can be sent to ab...@talkway.com, per the
headers.

GK

Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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mad...@my-dejanews.com

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Reposter

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mad...@my-dejanews.com

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Reposter

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Reposter

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
On 28 Feb 1999 22:25:27 -0800, Reposter <repo...@reposter.org> wrote:

>>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>>my account of my isolation by scientology is webbed at:
>>>
>>>http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm
>>>
>>>~~~~~
>>>
>>>my apology to anyone writing to me at my dejanews address....
>>>i've been unable to access this email, and so cannot reply...
>>>
>>>~madwog~
>
>In article <36da2285...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>, inm...@bellsouth.net
>says...
>>
>>Hello -
>>When and where did this happen?
>>
>>jack
>
>An Isolation survivor speaks
>
>I cannot deny anyone's religion. But some things by any standard or for any
>reason are wrong.
>

I agree.

Since a number of serious laws seem to have been broken. I assume you
have also filed a police report?

< snip >


jack

Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
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e...@some.where

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Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
In article <36da955...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:

> On 28 Feb 1999 22:25:27 -0800, Reposter <repo...@reposter.org> wrote:
>
> >>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>

> >An Isolation survivor speaks
> >
> >I cannot deny anyone's religion. But some things by any standard or for any
> >reason are wrong.
> >
>
> I agree.
>
> Since a number of serious laws seem to have been broken. I assume you
> have also filed a police report?


hmmm... seemingly, lisa mcpherson also neglected to file a police
report. and hey! even her caretakers neglected to file police reports!

what i mean to say, jack, (and surely you are aware of this), is that
people broken down to this extent do not, as a rule, file police
reports.

and speaking of ms. mcpherson... why do you think the "church" spirited
her caretakers out of the country pronto? could it possibly be so they
could not be interviewed by the... police. just in case... some
misguided do-gooder. filed. a police report?

regards
ef

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:33:29 GMT, <e...@some.where> wrote:

>In article <36da955...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
>inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>
>> On 28 Feb 1999 22:25:27 -0800, Reposter <repo...@reposter.org> wrote:
>>
>> >>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >>
>
>> >An Isolation survivor speaks
>> >
>> >I cannot deny anyone's religion. But some things by any standard or for any
>> >reason are wrong.
>> >
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> Since a number of serious laws seem to have been broken. I assume you
>> have also filed a police report?
>
>
>hmmm... seemingly, lisa mcpherson also neglected to file a police
>report. and hey! even her caretakers neglected to file police reports!
>
>what i mean to say, jack, (and surely you are aware of this), is that
>people broken down to this extent do not, as a rule, file police
>reports.
>

Well, maybe they should. Kidnapping/imprisonment, drug injections,
torture...these are serious crimes. I would think that all critics and
scientologists alike would like to know some facts concerning these
crimes.

Even "survivor" says this :
"So... it is up to 'outsiders' to confront the facts and do best to
prevent any future such atrocities.
...I wish to see the practice of 'isolation' cancelled. "

The best way of seeing these practices abolished is to report the
crimes.
I am also interested in knowing where and when these crimes took
place. There should also be some hospital records.

>and speaking of ms. mcpherson... why do you think the "church" spirited
>her caretakers out of the country pronto? could it possibly be so they
>could not be interviewed by the... police. just in case... some
>misguided do-gooder. filed. a police report?
>

Perhaps. But I think you will agree with me about the importance of
these crimes being documented and publicized. (like Lisas').

>regards
>ef


Best of luck

jack

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
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Warrior

unread,
Mar 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/1/99
to
In article <7bfdd8$iii$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mad...@my-dejanews.com says...
>
>~~ thank you, ef, you answered jack's question much better than
> i could. ~madwog~

Yesterday, when I saw a response to this thread, but couldn't find the
original article entitled " http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm ",
I went looking for it at Deja News' archive. I saw that the title of your
post was sporged 18 times! Do you suppose someone was trying to "paint over"
the "entheta" (truth)?

Warrior
See http://www.entheta.net/entheta/1stpersn/warrior/

mad...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Mar 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/2/99
to
jack ~ for now, there are plenty of folk who know the
wheres and whens of my experience.

scientology's isolative procedure has, i understand, been
in use even ~after~ Lisa's death...

so. how do we prevent such things from happening again ?

~madwog

In article <36da2285...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,


inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>

> >my account of my isolation by scientology is webbed at:
> >
> >http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm
> >
> >~~~~~
> >
> >my apology to anyone writing to me at my dejanews address....
> >i've been unable to access this email, and so cannot reply...
> >
> >~madwog~
> >
> >
> >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
> Hello -
> When and where did this happen?
>
> jack
>

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

mad...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Mar 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/2/99
to
~~ thank you, ef, you answered jack's question much better than
i could. ~madwog~

> >


> > Since a number of serious laws seem to have been broken. I assume you
> > have also filed a police report?
>
> hmmm... seemingly, lisa mcpherson also neglected to file a police
> report. and hey! even her caretakers neglected to file police reports!
>
> what i mean to say, jack, (and surely you are aware of this), is that
> people broken down to this extent do not, as a rule, file police
> reports.
>

> and speaking of ms. mcpherson... why do you think the "church" spirited
> her caretakers out of the country pronto? could it possibly be so they
> could not be interviewed by the... police. just in case... some
> misguided do-gooder. filed. a police report?
>

> regards
> ef

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/2/99
to
On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:53:42 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>jack ~ for now, there are plenty of folk who know the
>wheres and whens of my experience.
>
>scientology's isolative procedure has, i understand, been
>in use even ~after~ Lisa's death...
>

There is a trial pending.
But you are alive and able to offer proof of lots of crimes that will
not be a part of Lisa's trial. Perhaps *you* can end the IR.

>so. how do we prevent such things from happening again ?
>

By reporting these crimes to your DA.
By documenting those crimes here.

If you do that, then the people responsible for those crimes *will* be
stopped, and likely face unpleasant legal remedies.

It is not enough to simply post to ars a story such as yours. Criminal
abuses should be dealt with legally.
And then they will stop.

>~madwog
>

Best of luck

jack

Jens Tingleff

unread,
Mar 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/2/99
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In article <36da955...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:

[..]


> >>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:58:55 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>my account of my isolation by scientology is webbed at:
> >>>
> >>>http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm

[..]


> >
> >I cannot deny anyone's religion. But some things by any standard or
for any
> >reason are wrong.
> >
>
> I agree.
>

> Since a number of serious laws seem to have been broken. I assume
you
> have also filed a police report?
>

Ah, well, you see. The $cientology organisation has a large and
well-paid network of laywers who are paid to threaten harassment and
to enact that harassment.

In Denmark, there was a case (postdates Lisa McPherson *and* features
one of the same Sea-Ogres). The case was reported. The Danish Co$
issued a statement saying that the young woman in question had signed
a legal document and that there was no question of a complaint.

[Your statements in later posts about hospital records are, of course,
correct]

Cheers

Jens

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--
------ PGP v5 DSS Key ID : 0x09722C12 . Merci, Mr. Jospin ;-) ------
http://www.imaginet.fr/~jensting/. Scientology[tm]?? Check it out at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/mpoulter/scum.html *and*
http://www.scientology.org/. Report to alt.religion.scientology ;-)

mad...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Mar 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/2/99
to
In article <7bfjr9$e...@drn.newsguy.com>,

Warrior <war...@entheta.net> wrote:
> Yesterday, when I saw a response to this thread, but couldn't find the
> original article entitled " http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm ",
> I went looking for it at Deja News' archive. I saw that the title of your
> post was sporged 18 times!

~~ interesting, mm ? so, 18 more folk got to read the title ?

> Do you suppose someone was trying to "paint over"
> the "entheta" (truth)?

~~ maybe truth is only truth ?

~madwog~ <;

mad...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Mar 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/3/99
to
In article <36db3a13...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,

inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>
> But you are alive and able to offer proof of lots of crimes that will
> not be a part of Lisa's trial.

~~ the alive part is true.

> Perhaps *you* can end the IR.

~~ at the least, perhaps i could help pass a bill for the
'Prevention of Cruelty to Humans' ~ what do you think ?

~~ i don't know if the 'IR' is the only scientology process
that uses isolation...

~~~~~

> It is not enough to simply post to ars a story such as yours. Criminal
> abuses should be dealt with legally.
> And then they will stop.

~~ ideally, yes, this would be so...

Warrior

unread,
Mar 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/3/99
to
>>In article <36db3a13...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
>> inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>>>
>>> But you are alive and able to offer proof of lots of crimes that will
>>> not be a part of Lisa's trial.

>On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:50:33 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>~~ the alive part is true.

Madwog can offer relevant testimony in Lisa's case. Maybe Madwog has.

In article <36de006c...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>, inm...@bellsouth.net
says...
>
>Meaning you have *no* proof to offer?

Madwog was the victim of a criminal and horribly abusive ordeal, and
Madwog can offer testimony. Maybe Madwog has no proof. But just maybe
Madwog has friends who can verify the ordeal.

>>> Perhaps *you* can end the IR.

>>~~ at the least, perhaps i could help pass a bill for the
>> 'Prevention of Cruelty to Humans' ~ what do you think ?

>Heh - cute.

>>~~ i don't know if the 'IR' is the only scientology process
>> that uses isolation...

>Thats what Lisa was doing, the IR. And you did compare your plight to
>hers, didn't you?

Yes, Madwog did compare it to the plight of Lisa McPherson. But Madwog
also made it clear that Madwog is uncertain whether the Introspection
Rundown is the only time Scientology uses isolation.

Michael Meisner was held against his will, and he was not being subjected
to the Introspection Rundown at that time. He was simply a threat to
Scientology.

>>> It is not enough to simply post to ars a story such as yours. Criminal
>>> abuses should be dealt with legally.
>>> And then they will stop.

>>~~ ideally, yes, this would be so...

Some are doing their best to get criminal abuses by Scientology to stop.

>Its not just an ideal, its reality. Every day, criminals *are* legally
>*stopped*.
>
>You have made some serious allegations about terrible crimes, yet you
>do not legally pursue these crimes and you do not even offer any
>evidence to support your allegations. A remarkable story, that has now
>turned into quite a mystery.
>And I wonder why it is that here, in the middle of a bunch of people
>claiming to be "critics", I am the only one with questions for you?

No; you are not. It's just that most of my questions have already
been answered.

Madwog: Has the statute of limitations for bringing a civil suit
passed? Can criminal charges be filed?

>One possibility is that I am being a brute, asking painful questions
>of your horrible experience, but I have been polite (I *hate* being
>polite) and have asked good questions. Good questions deserve....
>
>Your short, clipped, partial-sentence answers have answered nothing.
>
>Another possibility is that I do not know the *whole* story. Perhaps
>your story was discussed on IRC and I am simply unaware of all of the
>facts.
>
>Finally, its possible that since your story is so damning to
>scientology, that the "critics" bury their heads in the sands of
>silence, thinking "she may be a Bullshittius Rexus, but she's *our*
>Bullshittius Rexus". A double standard.

My head isn't buried. It hasn't been buried in the sand. Madwog's
story is not a fable. It is true.

>True story or not, I understand you have some problems and I wish you
>well.
>
>Best of luck
>
>jack

Warrior
See http://www.entheta.net/entheta/1stpersn/warrior/

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
to
On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:50:33 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <36db3a13...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
> inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>>
>> But you are alive and able to offer proof of lots of crimes that will
>> not be a part of Lisa's trial.
>
>~~ the alive part is true.

Meaning you have *no* proof to offer?

>


>> Perhaps *you* can end the IR.
>
>~~ at the least, perhaps i could help pass a bill for the
> 'Prevention of Cruelty to Humans' ~ what do you think ?
>

Heh - cute.

>~~ i don't know if the 'IR' is the only scientology process
> that uses isolation...
>

>~~~~~

Thats what Lisa was doing, the IR. And you did compare your plight to
hers, didn't you?

>


>> It is not enough to simply post to ars a story such as yours. Criminal
>> abuses should be dealt with legally.
>> And then they will stop.
>
>~~ ideally, yes, this would be so...
>

Its not just an ideal, its reality. Every day, criminals *are* legally
*stopped*.

You have made some serious allegations about terrible crimes, yet you
do not legally pursue these crimes and you do not even offer any
evidence to support your allegations. A remarkable story, that has now
turned into quite a mystery.
And I wonder why it is that here, in the middle of a bunch of people
claiming to be "critics", I am the only one with questions for you?

One possibility is that I am being a brute, asking painful questions


of your horrible experience, but I have been polite (I *hate* being
polite) and have asked good questions. Good questions deserve....

Your short, clipped, partial-sentence answers have answered nothing.

Another possibility is that I do not know the *whole* story. Perhaps
your story was discussed on IRC and I am simply unaware of all of the
facts.

Finally, its possible that since your story is so damning to
scientology, that the "critics" bury their heads in the sands of
silence, thinking "she may be a Bullshittius Rexus, but she's *our*
Bullshittius Rexus". A double standard.

True story or not, I understand you have some problems and I wish you
well.

Best of luck

jack

>~madwog~

Bernie

unread,
Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
to
On 3 Mar 1999 23:55:43 -0800 Warrior <war...@entheta.net> wrote:

>My head isn't buried. It hasn't been buried in the sand. Madwog's
>story is not a fable. It is true.

On what are you basing yourself to make such an affirmative
statement?

"The more extreme the claim, the higher the demand
for corroborating evidence." (Kady).

And Madwog's claim is *so* extreme that the simplest explanation
is that she's standing on the edge of the Cuckoo clock.

Bernie
http://www.bernie.us-inc.com

Rob Clark

unread,
Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
to
On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:50:13 GMT, ma...@bernie.us-inc.com (Bernie)
wrote:

not really, as lisa mcpherson would have told a similar tale--had she
lived.

rob

Warrior

unread,
Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
to

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mad...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
In article <36de006c...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,

inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:50:33 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <36db3a13...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
> > inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
> >>
> >> But you are alive and able to offer proof of lots of crimes
that will
> >> not be a part of Lisa's trial.

~~ i don't know for sure what crimes those are, or what the statute
of limitations are. sounds like you might know more about that
than i do, please be specific.

> >~~ the alive part is true.
>
> Meaning you have *no* proof to offer?

~~ i have my word. and i'm learning that there were witnesses.

> >> Perhaps *you* can end the IR.
> >
> >~~ at the least, perhaps i could help pass a bill for the
> > 'Prevention of Cruelty to Humans' ~ what do you think ?
> >
>
> Heh - cute.

~~ not cute ~ serious. i get the impression that cruelty in the
name of religion or science is not illegal.

> >~~ i don't know if the 'IR' is the only scientology process
> > that uses isolation...
> >
> >~~~~~
>
> Thats what Lisa was doing, the IR. And you did compare your plight to
> hers, didn't you?

~~ it was my understanding that scientology denied that Lisa was
doing the 'IR'. did that change ?

~~ we were both subjected to, at least, incarceration and silence.
for my part, without explanation. i don't know how many scientology
'levels' might include such cruelty.

> >> It is not enough to simply post to ars a story such as yours. Criminal
> >> abuses should be dealt with legally.
> >> And then they will stop.
> >
> >~~ ideally, yes, this would be so...
> >
>
> Its not just an ideal, its reality. Every day, criminals *are* legally
> *stopped*.

~~ some criminals are legally stopped, yes. and some, esp
multi-billion dollar organizations (eg scientology & tobacco
companies) roll on. i don't share your faith in the legal system.

> You have made some serious allegations about terrible crimes, yet you
> do not legally pursue these crimes and you do not even offer any
> evidence to support your allegations. A remarkable story, that has now
> turned into quite a mystery.
> And I wonder why it is that here, in the middle of a bunch of people
> claiming to be "critics", I am the only one with questions for you?

~~ actually, many questions have been asked & answered. this was
a re-post.

> One possibility is that I am being a brute, asking painful questions
> of your horrible experience, but I have been polite (I *hate* being
> polite) and have asked good questions. Good questions deserve....
>
> Your short, clipped, partial-sentence answers have answered nothing.

~~ perhaps i'm being overly cautious. but i am still alive & hope
to stay that way. i still have many questions too.

> Another possibility is that I do not know the *whole* story.

~~ i don't even know the whole story. i don't know what my guards
may have been told in order to convince them to participate... in
the silent treatment. i used to think that my experience was
some sort of weird fluke or unexplainable mistake ~ until i heard
about lisa just last year. it was never explained to me.

> Perhaps
> your story was discussed on IRC and I am simply unaware of all of the
> facts.

~~ i've never been in a chat room, myself.

> Finally, its possible that since your story is so damning to
> scientology, that the "critics" bury their heads in the sands of
> silence, thinking "she may be a Bullshittius Rexus, but she's *our*
> Bullshittius Rexus".

~~ i don't know.

> A double standard.
> True story or not, I understand you have some problems and I wish you
> well.

~~ thank you. i appreciate your suggestions. i may not be as brave
as you would be under the same circumstances. i'm still waiting
for answers to legal questions, myself.

~madwog~


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ is there good in scientology ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
help prevent what happened to lisa from ever happening again
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/irsurviv.htm

Warrior

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
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lagkebc z


Warrior

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
On Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:59:46 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <36de006c...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
> inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:50:33 GMT, mad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <36db3a13...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
>> > inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> But you are alive and able to offer proof of lots of crimes
> that will
>> >> not be a part of Lisa's trial.
>
>~~ i don't know for sure what crimes those are, or what the statute
> of limitations are. sounds like you might know more about that
> than i do, please be specific.
>

You say you have been imprisoned, drugged, and tortured. These are
crimes, spectacular crimes.

>> >~~ the alive part is true.
>>
>> Meaning you have *no* proof to offer?
>
>~~ i have my word. and i'm learning that there were witnesses.
>

Then you should take your word and your witnesses to the DA.

>> >> Perhaps *you* can end the IR.
>> >
>> >~~ at the least, perhaps i could help pass a bill for the
>> > 'Prevention of Cruelty to Humans' ~ what do you think ?
>> >
>>
>> Heh - cute.
>
>~~ not cute ~ serious. i get the impression that cruelty in the
> name of religion or science is not illegal.
>

Your impression cannot explain the upcoming Lisa M trial.

>> >~~ i don't know if the 'IR' is the only scientology process
>> > that uses isolation...
>> >
>> >~~~~~
>>
>> Thats what Lisa was doing, the IR. And you did compare your plight to
>> hers, didn't you?
>
>~~ it was my understanding that scientology denied that Lisa was
> doing the 'IR'. did that change ?
>
>~~ we were both subjected to, at least, incarceration and silence.
> for my part, without explanation. i don't know how many scientology
> 'levels' might include such cruelty.
>
>> >> It is not enough to simply post to ars a story such as yours. Criminal
>> >> abuses should be dealt with legally.
>> >> And then they will stop.
>> >
>> >~~ ideally, yes, this would be so...
>> >
>>
>> Its not just an ideal, its reality. Every day, criminals *are* legally
>> *stopped*.
>
>~~ some criminals are legally stopped, yes. and some, esp
> multi-billion dollar organizations (eg scientology & tobacco
> companies) roll on. i don't share your faith in the legal system.
>

Today, it was announced that RJR Nabisco has divested itself of its
tobacco operations. Why? Because of the liability RJR incurs due to
*lawsuits* being filed against it. I am not asking you for faith, and
I share your concerns about the US Justice system, but I am sure that
crimes can be legally stopped, and are legally stopped.

>> You have made some serious allegations about terrible crimes, yet you
>> do not legally pursue these crimes and you do not even offer any
>> evidence to support your allegations. A remarkable story, that has now
>> turned into quite a mystery.
>> And I wonder why it is that here, in the middle of a bunch of people
>> claiming to be "critics", I am the only one with questions for you?
>
>~~ actually, many questions have been asked & answered. this was
> a re-post.
>

A "madwog" search on DejaNews did not bear this out. I would like to
read this discussion.

>> One possibility is that I am being a brute, asking painful questions
>> of your horrible experience, but I have been polite (I *hate* being
>> polite) and have asked good questions. Good questions deserve....
>>
>> Your short, clipped, partial-sentence answers have answered nothing.
>
>~~ perhaps i'm being overly cautious. but i am still alive & hope
> to stay that way. i still have many questions too.
>

I sincerely hope that you find your answers.

>> Another possibility is that I do not know the *whole* story.
>
>~~ i don't even know the whole story. i don't know what my guards
> may have been told in order to convince them to participate... in
> the silent treatment. i used to think that my experience was
> some sort of weird fluke or unexplainable mistake ~ until i heard
> about lisa just last year. it was never explained to me.
>

And now that its been explained, can you at least *consider* offering
up some proof?

>> Perhaps
>> your story was discussed on IRC and I am simply unaware of all of the
>> facts.
>
>~~ i've never been in a chat room, myself.
>

Me neither.

>> Finally, its possible that since your story is so damning to
>> scientology, that the "critics" bury their heads in the sands of
>> silence, thinking "she may be a Bullshittius Rexus, but she's *our*
>> Bullshittius Rexus".
>
>~~ i don't know.
>
>> A double standard.
>> True story or not, I understand you have some problems and I wish you
>> well.
>
>~~ thank you. i appreciate your suggestions. i may not be as brave
> as you would be under the same circumstances. i'm still waiting
> for answers to legal questions, myself.
>

I'm not very brave at all, but every once in a while, I flash common
sense <g>. Thats all thats required here, no bravery, just common
sense.
Lacking evidence, what is the qualitative difference between a UFO
abductees story, and your story?

jack

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to

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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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Warrior

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
In article <36e5c990...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>, inm...@bellsouth.net
says...
>
>All the more reason for *you* to want to stop it. If madwogs story is
>true, perhaps a DA would investigate and if he/she found corroborating
>evidence, then maybe, just maybe, the IR would go out in a blaze from
>hell. Would this not be a GoodThing?
>
>jack

Madwog's story is true. I personally observed Madwog being held in
isolation. There are others who are known by me to have knowledge
of Madwog's mistreatment.

If she needs a witness I am willing to talk to the authorities and
tell what I saw. If a lawsuit materializes I am willing to testify
under oath.

Warrior
See http://www.entheta.net/entheta/1stpersn/warrior/

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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e...@some.where

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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Jack Craver

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Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to

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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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e...@some.where

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to
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Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/10/99
to
On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:53:42 GMT, inF...@newsguy.com (Rev Dennis L
Erlich) wrote:

>inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) insults madwog:
>
>>Lacking evidence, what is the qualitative difference between a UFO
>>abductees story, and your story?
>
> Jack, you ignorant, insensitive turd.
>

Truly inspirational words, "Rev".

> The "qualitative" difference is that we have seen with our own
>eyes people isolated and screaming.

Many have *not* seen this. A tale of torture, imprisonment, drugs
being injected without consent, is a spectacular claim. An
extraordinary claim... requiring extraordinary proof. So far, no proof
at all has been forthcoming.

Additionally, the crimes and abuse madwog describes must be stopped.
If her story is true, then maybe, just maybe, a legal remedy could be
found.

So you can call me any names your religion allows and I will still ask
for evidence. If you don't like it, tough shit.

>We have seen the autopsy report
>on Lisa McPherson. Some of us have been through such isolations.
>

All the more reason for *you* to want to stop it. If madwogs story is
true, perhaps a DA would investigate and if he/she found corroborating
evidence, then maybe, just maybe, the IR would go out in a blaze from
hell. Would this not be a GoodThing?

> And of course there are the Introspection R/D HCOBs which call
>for precisely what madwog describes. To wit:
>
>"HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
> Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
>
> HCO BULLETIN OF 20 FEBRUARY 1974R
> REVISED 25 APRIL 1991
>
><snipt>
>
>0. On a person in a psychotic break isolate the person wholly
>with all attendants completely muzzled (no speech)."
>

Yes, I know what the HCOB says, I've also heard what madwog has said,
and now I have read what you say. What I have not seen is any evidence
to support madwogs extraordinary claims or any attempt to stop the
claimed abusers.

FWIW. I have questioned my own motives and am open to other critics
viewpoints, but I have concluded that since madwog chose to post her
story to a public NG as well as to a web-page, then I can at least
politely ask her some questions. I don't think this makes me
insensitive or ignorant...and you've already a lock on being a turd.

jack

> Rev. Dennis Erlich **the inFormer**
> <http://www.informer.org>
> <inF...@primenet.com>
>


e...@some.where

unread,
Mar 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/10/99
to
In article <36e5c990...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,
inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:

> FWIW. I have questioned my own motives and am open to other critics
> viewpoints, but I have concluded that since madwog chose to post her
> story to a public NG as well as to a web-page, then I can at least
> politely ask her some questions. I don't think this makes me
> insensitive or ignorant...and you've already a lock on being a turd.


hey! i thought bobminton was the designated turd! goddam you guys are
confusing me.

maybe thereis, like, degrees of turdity? you know, like english peers
or something.

ef

Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/10/99
to
On 9 Mar 1999 19:08:51 -0800, Warrior <war...@entheta.net> wrote:

>says...


>>
>>All the more reason for *you* to want to stop it. If madwogs story is
>>true, perhaps a DA would investigate and if he/she found corroborating
>>evidence, then maybe, just maybe, the IR would go out in a blaze from
>>hell. Would this not be a GoodThing?
>>

>>jack
>
>Madwog's story is true. I personally observed Madwog being held in
>isolation. There are others who are known by me to have knowledge
>of Madwog's mistreatment.
>

OK. Thats good enough for me. I think you are not a liar.

>If she needs a witness I am willing to talk to the authorities and
>tell what I saw. If a lawsuit materializes I am willing to testify
>under oath.
>

Hope this happens. The events surrounding the story of madwog should
not be repeated.

And now I can *finally* drop this thread, unless a certain cranky
bus-driver wants to continue it. <g>

Best of luck to you and to madwog

jack

>Warrior
>See http://www.entheta.net/entheta/1stpersn/warrior/


Jack Craver

unread,
Mar 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/10/99
to
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:12:22 GMT, <e...@some.where> wrote:

>In article <36e5c990...@news.mia.bellsouth.net>,


>inm...@bellsouth.net (Jack Craver) wrote:
>
>> FWIW. I have questioned my own motives and am open to other critics
>> viewpoints, but I have concluded that since madwog chose to post her
>> story to a public NG as well as to a web-page, then I can at least
>> politely ask her some questions. I don't think this makes me
>> insensitive or ignorant...and you've already a lock on being a turd.
>
>
>hey! i thought bobminton was the designated turd! goddam you guys are
>confusing me.
>

I was only temporarily borrowing the term and I now relinquish it back
to its previous owner.

>maybe thereis, like, degrees of turdity? you know, like english peers
>or something.
>

Of course - floaters, sinkers, the old log variety, little pieces, and
the ones that scar the sides.

best of luck

jack

>ef


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