Re: Jason and the Whales

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-CEAC2A...@news.eternal-september.org>,
David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:

> In article <Jason-17041...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > In article <dfritzin-FEEF30...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-16041...@67-150-122-192.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <XnsA037DC8671A8D...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell
> > > > Holman <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-1604121833450001@66-53-212-
> > > > > 147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In article <4F8CB3E...@osu.edu>, Jim Burns <burn...@osu.edu>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On 4/15/2012 10:48 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
> > > > > >> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
> > > > > >> > news:Jason-15041...@67-150-121-51.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
> > > > > >> >> In article<XnsA036C0FE4C23...@216.196.121.131>,
> > > > > >> >> Mitchell Holman<nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> >>> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
> > > > > >> >>>
news:Jason-15041...@66-53-216-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >>>> He is rich and found a way to pay a very
> > > > > >> >>>> low amount of money in taxes. He is a typical rich person.
> > > > > >> >>>
> > > > > >> >>> How much in taxes did "typical rich person" Romney pay?
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> He has not yet released his latest tax reports.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Obama released his.
> > > > > >> > What is Romney hiding?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There is a saying: Better to stay silent and be thought a fool
> > > > > >> than to speak and remove all doubt.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I think Romney sees a similar principle in play here:
> > > > > >> Better to stay silent and be thought to pay a grotesquely
> > > > > >> unfair tax rate than to speak and remove all doubt.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There is no significant doubt, of course: Romney paid about the
> > > > > >> same rate as he paid last year, less than people who don't
> > > > > >> earn enough to keep all of his cars in gasoline. If his
> > > > > >> circumstances had changed, it would have been major news.
> > > > > >> "I'm running for office, for Pete's sake."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> What I don't understand is why he is waiting until closer
> > > > > >> to the general election. Is he planning to stiff us on this
> > > > > >> year's tax returns? Does he really think he can win if he
does that?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Pure speculation: What if Romney wants to wait and see if he
> > > > > >> has a reasonable chance of beating Obama, closer to the general
> > > > > >> election, before he performs such a public (financial) strip tease.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He will have to release them in the near future. A poster
stated that
> > > > > he
> > > > > > requested a 6 month extention.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As could Obama.
> > > > >
> > > > > Instead he revealed his financed to the public.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romney is stalling.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which one will you be voting for?
> > > >
> > > > Romney.
> > >
> > > You want to vote for a liar?
> >
> > I would vote for whatever republican that was running against Obama--even
> > it had been Gingrich and I never have liked him.
>
> So, let me get this straight. You want to go back to GW Bush's policies,
> only on steroids. Remember how well they worked last time. We are still
> in the economic difficulties caused by those policies, and you want to
> vote for people who will only make things worse. Why do you hate the US
> so?

To be clearn--they could learn from Bush's mistakes and not make the same
mistakes that Bush2 made.

That is what I would do if I presently president. I would also eliminate
any duplicate federal agencies. At one time, I seem to recall reading that
we once had three different farm agencies. I would keep the best of the
three agencies and eliminate the other two agencies.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-18041...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

Fool! Romney plans on making exactly the same mistakes Bush made,
squared. He wants to get rid of regulations that protect us from Wall
Street doing what they did in 2007 and 2008. He wants to cut taxes on
the rich, etc. IOW, he wants to do what BUsh did, only worse.

>
> That is what I would do if I presently president. I would also eliminate
> any duplicate federal agencies. At one time, I seem to recall reading that
> we once had three different farm agencies. I would keep the best of the
> three agencies and eliminate the other two agencies.

THat isn't going to save much money.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-15A9E8...@news.eternal-september.org>,

If Romney makes the SAME mistakes that Bush2 made--he will become a one
term president and will go down in history as a bad president.

[David Fritzinger]

No substantive comment here. Why not?

> > >
> > > That is what I would do if I presently president. I would also eliminate
> > > any duplicate federal agencies. At one time, I seem to recall reading
> > > that
> > > we once had three different farm agencies. I would keep the best of the
> > > three agencies and eliminate the other two agencies.
> >
> > THat isn't going to save much money.

No comment on this as well. You sure do have a knack for ignoring
responses that show you are wrong. There is a word for that. Let me
think... Oh, I know. It's called lying.

>
> If Romney makes the SAME mistakes that Bush2 made--he will become a one
> term president and will go down in history as a bad president.

For the sake of our country, I sincerely hope he never gets eledted.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-779B82...@news.eternal-september.org>,

And I hope that Romney does get elected.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-19041...@67-150-126-156.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <dfritzin-779B82...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <Jason-18041...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <dfritzin-15A9E8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> > > > Fool! Romney plans on making exactly the same mistakes Bush made,
> > > > squared. He wants to get rid of regulations that protect us from Wall
> > > > Street doing what they did in 2007 and 2008. He wants to cut taxes on
> > > > the rich, etc. IOW, he wants to do what BUsh did, only worse.
> >
> > No substantive comment here. Why not?
> > > > >
> > > > > That is what I would do if I presently president. I would also
> > > > > eliminate
> > > > > any duplicate federal agencies. At one time, I seem to recall reading
> > > > > that
> > > > > we once had three different farm agencies. I would keep the best of
> > > > > the
> > > > > three agencies and eliminate the other two agencies.
> > > >
> > > > THat isn't going to save much money.
> >
> > No comment on this as well. You sure do have a knack for ignoring
> > responses that show you are wrong. There is a word for that. Let me
> > think... Oh, I know. It's called lying.

Still no response. Why is that, lying Jason?

> > >
> > > If Romney makes the SAME mistakes that Bush2 made--he will become a one
> > > term president and will go down in history as a bad president.
> >
> > For the sake of our country, I sincerely hope he never gets eledted.
>
> And I hope that Romney does get elected.

Why do you hate the US? If you listen to what Romney says he will do,
you know he will be worse for the country than Obama could be if he
tried. Yet, you want him to win, so he can finish the job GW Bush did.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-96FFDD...@news.eternal-september.org>,

LOL--Romney will be a far better president than Obama.

Try to find this column on the internet.

I found it in newspaper entilted The Tribune (website: sanluisobispo.com)

title of column: The White House Argument
writer: David Brooks (writes for the New York Times--a liberal newspaper)

This is a sentence from the column:

"Obama's 2013 budget will add roughly $6 trillion to the nations's debt
over the next 10 years."

That means to me that Obama wants to keep spending money like a druken
sailer without fearing the consequences for the next several generations.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-20041...@66-53-211-164.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

You again prove you know nothing. David Brooks is a dyed in the wool
conservative. Perhaps a bit more rational than the likes of Limbaugh,
but a dyed in the wool conservative.

>
> This is a sentence from the column:
>
> "Obama's 2013 budget will add roughly $6 trillion to the nations's debt
> over the next 10 years."

And, Romney will add considerably more. Remember the cites I provided
that showed Romney's budget would add hundreds of billions of
dollars/year to the deficit.

Why are you voting for Romney again? Certainly not for lower deficits.
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/comparing-obamas-and
-romneys-budgets/2011/08/25/gIQA0q35AR_blog.html>
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=215297
<http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-deficit-oba
ma-s-or-romney-s>
From the last article:
"Hold on.  The Ryan/Romney budget was not fully scored by the CBO like
the Obama budget, so the figures are not apples to apples.  In fact,
Rep. Ryan deliberately left a lot of things vague and unstated in his
budget just to avoid an apple to apple comparison. In other words, it
was a deliberate deception.
 
The bi-partisan Tax Policy Center  scored the Ryan/Romney Budget and
concluded that on an apple to apple basis, it would actually reduce
revenue by 2% of GDP by 2023.  As reported by economist and New York
Times columnist Paul Krugman, this would result in bigger deficits than
the sugar coated version they gave the CBO to score.


Continue reading on Examiner.com Whose budget creates biggest deficit
Obama¹s or Romney¹s? - National economic policy | Examiner.com
http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-deficit-obam
a-s-or-romney-s#ixzz1saTiEyT2"

Guess you are wrong, yet again.

>
> That means to me that Obama wants to keep spending money like a druken
> sailer without fearing the consequences for the next several generations.

See above. Besides, as I have pointed out (and you even agreed), much of
the debt accrued under the Obama administration is the result of
carryover Bush policies.

Oooops! Facts show Jason to be wrong yet again.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-43590A...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I still believe that ObamaCare will cost as much as Medicare is presently
costing. It's impossible to provide free medical insurance to over 30
million Americans without it cost billions of dollars per year.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-20041...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

It doesn't matter what you believe, since the facts, once again, prove
you to be wrong. It isn't my fault that your way of deciding which facts
to believe is to decide which ones make you feel all warm and fuzzy
inside.

[linuxgal]

Jason wrote:
>
> I still believe that ObamaCare will cost as much as Medicare is presently
> costing. It's impossible to provide free medical insurance to over 30
> million Americans without it cost billions of dollars per year.
>

So they just go to the emergency room, and the taxpayer reimburses the
hospital to the tune of billions of dollars per year.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-9CB8B6...@news.eternal-september.org>,

How is it possible to provide free health insurance for over 30 million
people without it costing any money?

[Devils Advocaat]

On Apr 22, 7:29 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <dfritzin-9CB8B6.06463721042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <Jason-2004122349290...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >  Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > In article <dfritzin-43590A.09355720042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <Jason-2004120006160...@66-53-211-164.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > >  Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <dfritzin-96FFDD.19052019042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <Jason-1904121348030...@67-150-126-156.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > > > >  Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > > > > In article

> > > > > > > <dfritzin-779B82.09323719042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <Jason-1804121344340...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > > > > > >  Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > In article

> > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-15A9E8.16032418042...@news.eternal-september.org>,

> > > >http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-deficit-...

> > > > a-s-or-romney-s#ixzz1saTiEyT2"
>
> > > > Guess you are wrong, yet again.
>
> > > > > That means to me that Obama wants to keep spending money like a druken
> > > > > sailer without fearing the consequences for the next several
> generations.
>
> > > > See above. Besides, as I have pointed out (and you even agreed), much of
> > > > the debt accrued under the Obama administration is the result of
> > > > carryover Bush policies.
>
> > > > Oooops! Facts show Jason to be wrong yet again.
>
> > > I still believe that ObamaCare will cost as much as Medicare is presently
> > > costing. It's impossible to provide free medical insurance to over 30
> > > million Americans without it cost billions of dollars per year.
>
> > It doesn't matter what you believe, since the facts, once again, prove
> > you to be wrong. It isn't my fault that your way of deciding which facts
> > to believe is to decide which ones make you feel all warm and fuzzy
> > inside.
>
> How is it possible to provide free health insurance for over 30 million
> people without it costing any money?

Has anyone said it won't cost anything?

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-21041...@66-53-219-87.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

If the Dutch and Canadians and the Japanese and
the Germans and the Australians and even the French
can do it why can't we?

[David Fritzinger]

In article <Jason-21041...@66-53-219-87.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

First of all, we are already providing free health insurance for
millions, through visits to the emergency room. That shows up directly
on your insurance bill. Second, it isn't "free" insurance. It is paid
for. In some cases subsidized by the government, but the insured still
have to pay. In addition, parts of the ACA will save money in many ways.
You have been told this many times before, so it is clear that you are
lying, yet again. Can't you ever tell the truth?

[Alex W.]

Because the Dutch and Canadians and Japanese and Germans and
Australians and even the French are smelly furriners with strange
ungodly foreign ways and weird foreign customs that aren't fit
for proper Americans!

More seriously, because faith in American exceptionalism is a
core part of national identity and self-identification for a
large part of Americans. You have been telling yourselves for
decades that you are different, that you are special, that you
are blessed (both in a secular and religious sense), that the
normal rules do not apply to you, that you are a Grand Experiment
of human civilisation. This narrative has been reinforced to a
degree by a self-selection of the population in that the
migrants, by virtue of their decision to abandon one country and
adopt another, already arrived with this mindset "pre-loaded".

On top of that, there is simple ignorance. The vast majority of
Americans has no idea at all how the rest of humanity really
lives and thinks and plays and works because nine out of ten of
you have never ever left the country even to go to Mexico or
Canada. Therefore there is no control mechanism of independent
experiences to check the propagandists and fear-mongers: when a
Rush LImbaugh rants about "death panels", for instance, with very
very few exceptions his audience is simply not in a position to
think "hang on a second, I have been there and I know these guys,
and what I have seen does not jibe with what the fat fuck is
telling me".

[Jason]

In article
<c1e474ec-9bb8-4ddf...@c28g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 22, 7:29=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <dfritzin-9CB8B6.06463721042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-2004122349290...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-43590A.09355720042...@news.eternal-september.org=

> >,
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-2004120006160...@66-53-211-164.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-96FFDD.19052019042...@news.eternal-september=

> .org>,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1904121348030...@67-150-126-156.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <dfritzin-779B82.09323719042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article

> > > > > > > > > <Jason-1804121344340...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.co=
> m>,
> > > > > > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-15A9E8.16032418042...@news.eternal-september.or=

> g>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > [snip]

> > > > > > > > > > > Fool! Romney plans on making exactly the same mistakes =
> Bush
> > > > > > > > > > > made,
> > > > > > > > > > > squared. He wants to get rid of regulations that protec=
> t us
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > Wall
> > > > > > > > > > > Street doing what they did in 2007 and 2008. He wants t=
> o cut
> > > > taxes
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the rich, etc. IOW, he wants to do what BUsh did, only =

> worse.
> >
> > > > > > > > > No substantive comment here. Why not?
> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I would do if I presently president. I w=
> ould
> > > > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate
> > > > > > > > > > > > any duplicate federal agencies. At one time, I seem t=
> o
> > recall
> > > > > > reading
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > we once had three different farm agencies. I would ke=

> ep
> > > > the best
> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > three agencies and eliminate the other two agencies.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > THat isn't going to save much money.
> >

> > > > > > > > > No comment on this as well. You sure do have a knack for ig=
> noring
> > > > > > > > > responses that show you are wrong. There is a word for that=

> .
> > Let me
> > > > > > > > > think... Oh, I know. It's called lying.
> >
> > > > > > > Still no response. Why is that, lying Jason?
> >

> > > > > > > > > > If Romney makes the SAME mistakes that Bush2 made--he wil=
> l
> > become
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > term president and will go down in history as a bad presi=

> dent.
> >
> > > > > > > > > For the sake of our country, I sincerely hope he never gets
> > > > > > > > > eledted.
> >
> > > > > > > > And I hope that Romney does get elected.
> >

> > > > > > > Why do you hate the US? If you listen to what Romney says he wi=
> ll do,
> > > > > > > you know he will be worse for the country than Obama could be i=

> f he
> > > > > > > tried. Yet, you want him to win, so he can finish the job GW
> > Bush did.
> > > > > > > Why do you hate the US so?
> >
> > > > > > LOL--Romney will be a far better president than Obama.
> >
> > > > > > Try to find this column on the internet.
> >
> > > > > > I found it in newspaper entilted The Tribune (website:
> > sanluisobispo.com)
> >
> > > > > > title of column: The White House Argument
> > > > > > writer: David Brooks (writes for the New York Times--a liberal
> > newspaper)
> >

> > > > > You again prove you know nothing. David Brooks is a dyed in the woo=
> l
> > > > > conservative. Perhaps a bit more rational than the likes of Limbaug=

> h,
> > > > > but a dyed in the wool conservative.
> >
> > > > > > This is a sentence from the column:
> >

> > > > > > "Obama's 2013 budget will add roughly $6 trillion to the nations'=

> s debt
> > > > > > over the next 10 years."
> >

> > > > > And, Romney will add considerably more. Remember the cites I provid=

> ed
> > > > > that showed Romney's budget would add hundreds of billions of
> > > > > dollars/year to the deficit.
> >

> > > > > Why are you voting for Romney again? Certainly not for lower defici=
> ts.
> > > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/comparing-obam=
> as-and
> > > > > -romneys-budgets/2011/08/25/gIQA0q35AR_blog.html>
> > > > >http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=3D215297
> > > > > <http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-defic=

> it-oba
> > > > > ma-s-or-romney-s>
> > > > > From the last article:

> > > > > "Hold on.=A0 The Ryan/Romney budget was not fully scored by the CBO=
> like
> > > > > the Obama budget, so the figures are not apples to apples.=A0 In fa=
> ct,
> > > > > Rep. Ryan deliberately left a lot of things vague and unstated in h=
> is
> > > > > budget just to avoid an apple to apple comparison. In other words, =

> it
> > > > > was a deliberate deception.
> > > > >

> > > > > The bi-partisan Tax Policy Center=A0=A0scored the Ryan/Romney Budge=

> t and
> > > > > concluded that on an apple to apple basis, it would actually reduce

> > > > > revenue by 2% of GDP by 2023.=A0 As reported by economist and New Y=
> ork
> > > > > Times columnist Paul Krugman, this would result in bigger deficits =

> than
> > > > > the sugar coated version they gave the CBO to score.
> >

> > > > > Continue reading on Examiner.com Whose budget creates biggest defic=
> it
> > > > > Obama=B9s or Romney=B9s? - National economic policy | Examiner.com
> > > > >http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-deficit=

> -...
> > > > > a-s-or-romney-s#ixzz1saTiEyT2"
> >
> > > > > Guess you are wrong, yet again.
> >

> > > > > > That means to me that Obama wants to keep spending money like a d=

> ruken
> > > > > > sailer without fearing the consequences for the next several
> > generations.
> >

> > > > > See above. Besides, as I have pointed out (and you even agreed), mu=

> ch of
> > > > > the debt accrued under the Obama administration is the result of
> > > > > carryover Bush policies.
> >
> > > > > Oooops! Facts show Jason to be wrong yet again.
> >

> > > > I still believe that ObamaCare will cost as much as Medicare is prese=

> ntly
> > > > costing. It's impossible to provide free medical insurance to over 30
> > > > million Americans without it cost billions of dollars per year.
> >
> > > It doesn't matter what you believe, since the facts, once again, prove

> > > you to be wrong. It isn't my fault that your way of deciding which fact=

> s
> > > to believe is to decide which ones make you feel all warm and fuzzy
> > > inside.
> >
> > How is it possible to provide free health insurance for over 30 million
> > people without it costing any money?
>
> Has anyone said it won't cost anything?

I don't save old posts. I seem to recall that several posters have told me
that it will save money.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-4A9402...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I understand your point of view. I have a different point of view.

These two people explain my point of view far better than I could explain it:

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/05/opinion/oe-tanner5

April 05, 2007|Michael Tanner and Michael Cannon | MICHAEL TANNER is
director of health and welfare studies and MICHAEL CANNON is director of
health policy studies at the Cato Institute.

AS THEY TACK left and right state by state, the Democratic presidential
contenders can't agree on much. But one cause they all support -- along
with Republicans such as former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney and
California's own Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger -- is universal health
coverage. And all of them are wrong.
What these politicians and many other Americans fail to understand is that
there's a big difference between universal coverage and actual access to
medical care.
Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many
countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to
patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006
that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission
to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation
of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart
surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip
replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer
chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting
treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice
Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to
healthcare."
Supporters of universal coverage fear that people without health insurance
will be denied the healthcare they need. Of course, all Americans already
have access to at least emergency care. Hospitals are legally obligated to
provide care regardless of ability to pay, and although physicians do not
face the same legal requirements, we do not hear of many who are willing
to deny treatment because a patient lacks insurance.
You may think it is self-evident that the uninsured may forgo preventive
care or receive a lower quality of care. And yet, in reviewing all the
academic literature on the subject, Helen Levy of the University of
Michigan's Economic Research Initiative on the Uninsured, and David
Meltzer of the University of Chicago, were unable to establish a "causal
relationship" between health insurance and better health. Believe it or
not, there is "no evidence," Levy and Meltzer wrote, that expanding
insurance coverage is a cost-effective way to promote health. Similarly, a
study published in the New England Journal of Medicine last year found
that, although far too many Americans were not receiving the appropriate
standard of care, "health insurance status was largely unrelated to the
quality of care."

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03D531F45B2B...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

We can--but the national debt is already 15 trillion dollars. As a result
of ObamaCare--it will grow at an even higher level than it would if we did
not have ObamaCare.

The end result of ObamaCare will be a two tier system of treatment:

Rich people paying money for their own medical care from private doctors
that are not connected in any way to ObamaCare. They don't have to wait in
long lines and if they need surgery--they get it that same week

The second tier is the rest of us--We have to wait several weeks or months
for appointments. If we need surgery--we may have to wait a year to get
the surgery--and end up dying while waiting:

Read this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/05/opinion/oe-tanner5

[Jason]

In article <9qyv3n6rsxvw.8sfz5adl2n2i$.d...@40tude.net>, ing...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:

OK--do you have a panel in your country that controls whether or not you
can get plastic surgery to get a face lift? Can a 80 year man
automatically be granted a heart transplant or is it possible that he will
be denied a heart transplant since he is too old?

Of course, the panel will not be called a death panel--but it will still
be a death panel since they will decide that a 80 year old man will not be
authorized to get a heart transplant. Get it yet?

That means liberal democrats can claim that it is NOT a death panel since
it is not labelled to be a death panel. However, they secretly know that
it will be a death panel.

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-22041...@66-53-220-250.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com:

1) What is the wait time for people in the US
needing treatment who cannot afford insurance?

2) How many Swedes or Britons or Canadians have
been driven into bankruptcy by medical bills?

3) If socialized medicine is so bad why do the
countries using it cling to it religiously? Even
Maggie Thatcher for all her conservative bluster
never tried to get rid of the NHS.

[Alex W.]

These are medical decisions. Hearts for transplants are rare
commodities in any system, and this itself imposes rationing and
tough decisions. These doctors have to decide where the greatest
medical benefit lies. If they find that a 20 year old who, with
a heart transplant, can expect a full life but the 80 year old
patient cannot and will not, then they will decide against
granddad. Again: it is a medical decision.

Presumably, you would vote for the 80 year old simply on the
basis that his insurance is prepared to cough up more cash.
"This guy is loaded, so let's give him siex months or a year of
life with full medical care and fuck that young kid who could
have a chancve at another 60 years." To call such medical
decisions a "death panel" is to say that you approve of poor
people dying.

[Tom McDonald]

You mean like the death panels insurance companies have right now? Those
death panels? The ones conservative Republicans are fighting so hard to
keep. Those death panels?

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-220-250.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

What a hypocrite you are. You want to limit how much money is spent, but
you make a big deal about someone being too old to get a heart

transplant.
>
> Of course, the panel will not be called a death panel--but it will still
> be a death panel since they will decide that a 80 year old man will not be
> authorized to get a heart transplant. Get it yet?

We already have something like that in the US. It is called insurance
companies. Insurance companies are quick to deny claims (after all, they
are out to make a profit, and paying claims lowers their profits).
Insurance companies won't insure people with pre-existing conditions. In
fact, as you know, Mrs. Romney suffers from MS. If her husband weren't
rich, she would not be able to get insurance, since it is a
pre-existing, chronic condition.

>
> That means liberal democrats can claim that it is NOT a death panel since
> it is not labelled to be a death panel. However, they secretly know that
> it will be a death panel.

There will be no "death panels" under the ACA. The commission you are so
paranoid can only make recommendations, not enforce anything. Besides,
we have death panels already. They are called insurance companies. They
deny people treatment to make a profit, and reward those who deny
benefits. The government would not do that, since they aren't interested
in a profit.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-220-250.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

This article was written in 2007, and has nothing to say about the ACA,
since it didn't exist yet. Now, why don't you ask Canadians, British,
Germans, Swedes, etc., if they would rather have their system of
healthcare, paying for it with higher taxes, or our system. I would bet
that an overwhelming majority would vote for "socialized" medicine,
since it works better than the US system, and is cheaper to boot.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-220-250.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

What I said is that it will lower the deficit. That isn't my opinion, it
is the opinion of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. Now,
stop lying about what people here have said.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-BAC3C8...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I found the newspaper article that contained that information. The article
was published April 10, 2012 in a newspaper. The URL is sanluisobispo.com

The title of the article was "Obama health care plan adds to budget
deficit, study says"

It was first published in The Washington Post which is a liberal newspaper.

The first sentence is below:

"President Barack Obama's landmark health care initiative, long touted as
a means to control costs, will actually add more than $340 billion to the
nation's budget woes over the next decade, according to a new study by a
member of the board that oversees Medicare financing...."

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03DAD487ECCC...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

My concern is the cost. The national debt is now over 15 trillion dollars.
Once ObamaCare goes into actions--the national debt will climb higher much
faster than it normally would.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-3C019B...@news.eternal-september.org>,

You still don't get it. The commission that you mentioned in your post
will be doing the same job the insurance companies cost controllers are
doing. One of their jobs is to spend as little money as possible. That
means when a 80 year old woman needs her knees replaced or hip
surgery--that they will deny the sugeries since she is too old. Even if
they approve it--she may have to wait on a waiting list for a year. Do you
rememeber when Chaney had a heart transplant. There was a newspaper story
saying that a poll showed that lots of people believe that heart should
have been given to a younger person. I believe Chaney was over 70 years
old.

[Jason]

In article <dK%kr.15313$bU5....@newsfe04.iad>, Tom McDonald

I only wish that I could disagree with you. It will be much worse when the
gov't takes over. The social security people make diabled people wait
about 4 years before approving them for social security disability
payments. In some cases, they never approve them. One lady in my city had
to take a bottle of blood pressure pills while in a hospital ER room
before they would approve her. The nurses and doctors pumped out her
stomach. She made sure she recieved a copy of the report so she could send
it to the social security department. It worked. She finally got approved.

[Jason]

In article <tfg1ksq2dw6c.1t...@40tude.net>, ing...@yahoo.co.uk

You are the first person that understands how it will work. Read this:

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-A9DBD5...@news.eternal-september.org>,

> > > > > > > Obamaąs or Romneyąs? - National economic policy | Examiner.com

I agree with you but the question is--can we afford it?

Free health care is one of the reasons Greece and Spain are both in danger
of going belly up.

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

"Beaton, a retired nurse from Waxahachie, Texas,
had health insurance -- or so she thought. She paid
her premiums faithfully every month, but when she was
diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer, her health
insurance company, Blue Cross, dumped her."

"Peggy Raddatz, whose brother Otto Raddatz lost his
insurance coverage right before he was scheduled to
receive an expensive stem-cell transplant to treat
his lymphoma. Why? Because Fortis Insurance Company
discovered his doctor had found gall stones and an
aneurysm on a CT scan -- conditions that had nothing
to do with his cancer."

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/19/begala.health.care/

"Welcome to 2008, hopefully your family had a better end
to the year2007 than the family of Natiline Sarkisyan.
Their year ended with a funeral for their teen-aged daughter
who died after her health and medical insurance company
refused to pay for a liver transplant and then reconsidered."

http://tinyurl.com/q7wnov

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

We had a similar situation locally when
Mickey Mantle needed a liver transplant. Since
no hospital wanted the publicity of the baseball
great dying on THEIR watch he got one. Immediately.
No waiting lists for the rich and famous in this
country, no sirree.

Is that the sort of system you are defending?

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

So to sum up: People have to die because curing them costs
money that the government does not have because hugely profitable
companies like Exxon Mobil and Boeing and GE pay NO income taxes.

Putting corporate profits over saving lives - is that "What
Jesus Would Do"?

[Devils Advocaat]

On Apr 22, 10:33 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article

> <c1e474ec-9bb8-4ddf-b414-8bb5fa177...@c28g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,

Saving money and not costing anything don't mean the same thing.

[SkyEyes]

On Apr 22, 2:58 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <9qyv3n6rsxvw.8sfz5adl2n2i$....@40tude.net>, ing...@yahoo.co.uk

> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 08:15:44 -0500, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>
> > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
> > >news:Jason-21041...@66-53-219-87.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
>
> > >> In article

> > >> <dfritzin-9CB8B6.06463721042...@news.eternal-september.org>, David
> > >> Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> In article

> > >>> <Jason-2004122349290...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

You can't get a face lift on the national health service in *any*
country that I know of. However, if you want cosmetic surgery, you
can pay privately for it. You can even buy a "cadillac" private
healthcare policy in countries with a national health service.

> Can a 80 year man
> automatically be granted a heart transplant or is it possible that he will
> be denied a heart transplant since he is too old?

80-year-old men don't usually get transplants in *this* country,
Jason. The cut-off is usually 70. Dick Cheney is a rich, powerful
exception to that rule.

>
> Of course, the panel will not be called a death panel--but it will still
> be a death panel since they will decide that a 80 year old man will not be
> authorized to get a heart transplant. Get it yet?

Do you get it that - Dick Cheney aside - 80-year-old men do NOT get
heart transplants in *this* country, either?

>
> That means liberal democrats can claim that it is NOT a death panel since
> it is not labelled to be a death panel. However, they secretly know that
> it will be a death panel.

You're so full of shit your eyes are turning brown. This has all been
explained to you before. You're a dishonest little asswipe.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03DDAB23CF81...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

And in 2025, a man is 75 years old and his doctor tells him that he needs
a heart transplant. The following week, his doctor calls that man and
tells him the bad news. The ObamaCare board--reviewed your case file and
determined that you are to old to be approved for a heart transplant but
that you can get a heart transplant if you agree to pay for it yourself.

[Jason]

In article
<e9036f1b-e1f8-4d6d...@c28g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 22, 10:33=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <c1e474ec-9bb8-4ddf-b414-8bb5fa177...@c28g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > On Apr 22, 7:29=3DA0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article <dfritzin-9CB8B6.06463721042...@news.eternal-september.org=

> >,
> >
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-2004122349290...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-43590A.09355720042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D

> > > >,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-2004120006160...@66-53-211-164.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

> > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-96FFDD.19052019042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D

> > > .org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article

> > > > > > > > > <Jason-1904121348030...@67-150-126-156.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.co=
> m>,
> > > > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-779B82.09323719042...@news.eternal-september.or=

> g>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >

> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1804121344340...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwes=
> t.co=3D
> > > m>,
> > > > > > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-15A9E8.16032418042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> r.or=3D
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fool! Romney plans on making exactly the same mista=
> kes =3D
> > > Bush
> > > > > > > > > > > > > made,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > squared. He wants to get rid of regulations that pr=
> otec=3D
> > > t us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Wall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Street doing what they did in 2007 and 2008. He wan=
> ts t=3D
> > > o cut
> > > > > > taxes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the rich, etc. IOW, he wants to do what BUsh did, o=
> nly =3D

> > > worse.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > No substantive comment here. Why not?
> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I would do if I presently president.=
> I w=3D
> > > ould
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > any duplicate federal agencies. At one time, I se=
> em t=3D
> > > o
> > > > recall
> > > > > > > > reading
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we once had three different farm agencies. I woul=
> d ke=3D

> > > ep
> > > > > > the best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > three agencies and eliminate the other two agenci=

> es.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > THat isn't going to save much money.
> >

> > > > > > > > > > > No comment on this as well. You sure do have a knack fo=
> r ig=3D
> > > noring
> > > > > > > > > > > responses that show you are wrong. There is a word for =
> that=3D

> > > .
> > > > Let me
> > > > > > > > > > > think... Oh, I know. It's called lying.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Still no response. Why is that, lying Jason?
> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > If Romney makes the SAME mistakes that Bush2 made--he=
> wil=3D
> > > l
> > > > become
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > > term president and will go down in history as a bad p=
> resi=3D
> > > dent.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > For the sake of our country, I sincerely hope he never =

> gets
> > > > > > > > > > > eledted.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > And I hope that Romney does get elected.
> >

> > > > > > > > > Why do you hate the US? If you listen to what Romney says h=
> e wi=3D
> > > ll do,
> > > > > > > > > you know he will be worse for the country than Obama could =
> be i=3D
> > > f he
> > > > > > > > > tried. Yet, you want him to win, so he can finish the job G=

> W
> > > > Bush did.
> > > > > > > > > Why do you hate the US so?
> >
> > > > > > > > LOL--Romney will be a far better president than Obama.
> >
> > > > > > > > Try to find this column on the internet.
> >
> > > > > > > > I found it in newspaper entilted The Tribune (website:
> > > > sanluisobispo.com)
> >
> > > > > > > > title of column: The White House Argument

> > > > > > > > writer: David Brooks (writes for the New York Times--a libera=
> l
> > > > newspaper)
> >
> > > > > > > You again prove you know nothing. David Brooks is a dyed in the=
> woo=3D
> > > l
> > > > > > > conservative. Perhaps a bit more rational than the likes of Lim=
> baug=3D

> > > h,
> > > > > > > but a dyed in the wool conservative.
> >
> > > > > > > > This is a sentence from the column:
> >

> > > > > > > > "Obama's 2013 budget will add roughly $6 trillion to the nati=
> ons'=3D

> > > s debt
> > > > > > > > over the next 10 years."
> >

> > > > > > > And, Romney will add considerably more. Remember the cites I pr=
> ovid=3D

> > > ed
> > > > > > > that showed Romney's budget would add hundreds of billions of
> > > > > > > dollars/year to the deficit.
> >

> > > > > > > Why are you voting for Romney again? Certainly not for lower de=
> fici=3D
> > > ts.
> > > > > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/comparing-=
> obam=3D
> > > as-and
> > > > > > > -romneys-budgets/2011/08/25/gIQA0q35AR_blog.html>
> > > > > > >http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=3D3D215297
> > > > > > > <http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-d=
> efic=3D

> > > it-oba
> > > > > > > ma-s-or-romney-s>
> > > > > > > From the last article:

> > > > > > > "Hold on.=3DA0 The Ryan/Romney budget was not fully scored by t=
> he CBO=3D
> > > =A0like
> > > > > > > the Obama budget, so the figures are not apples to apples.=3DA0=
> In fa=3D
> > > ct,
> > > > > > > Rep. Ryan deliberately left a lot of things vague and unstated =
> in h=3D
> > > is
> > > > > > > budget just to avoid an apple to apple comparison. In other wor=
> ds, =3D

> > > it
> > > > > > > was a deliberate deception.
> >

> > > > > > > The bi-partisan Tax Policy Center=3DA0=3DA0scored the Ryan/Romn=
> ey Budge=3D
> > > t and
> > > > > > > concluded that on an apple to apple basis, it would actually re=
> duce
> > > > > > > revenue by 2% of GDP by 2023.=3DA0 As reported by economist and=
> New Y=3D
> > > ork
> > > > > > > Times columnist Paul Krugman, this would result in bigger defic=
> its =3D

> > > than
> > > > > > > the sugar coated version they gave the CBO to score.
> >

> > > > > > > Continue reading on Examiner.com Whose budget creates biggest d=
> efic=3D
> > > it
> > > > > > > Obama=3DB9s or Romney=3DB9s? - National economic policy | Exami=
> ner.com
> > > > > > >http://www.examiner.com/article/whose-budget-creates-biggest-def=
> icit=3D

> > > -...
> > > > > > > a-s-or-romney-s#ixzz1saTiEyT2"
> >
> > > > > > > Guess you are wrong, yet again.
> >

> > > > > > > > That means to me that Obama wants to keep spending money like=
> a d=3D

> > > ruken
> > > > > > > > sailer without fearing the consequences for the next several
> > > > generations.
> >

> > > > > > > See above. Besides, as I have pointed out (and you even agreed)=
> , mu=3D
> > > ch of
> > > > > > > the debt accrued under the Obama administration is the result o=

> f
> > > > > > > carryover Bush policies.
> >
> > > > > > > Oooops! Facts show Jason to be wrong yet again.
> >

> > > > > > I still believe that ObamaCare will cost as much as Medicare is p=
> rese=3D
> > > ntly
> > > > > > costing. It's impossible to provide free medical insurance to ove=

> r 30
> > > > > > million Americans without it cost billions of dollars per year.
> >

> > > > > It doesn't matter what you believe, since the facts, once again, pr=
> ove
> > > > > you to be wrong. It isn't my fault that your way of deciding which =
> fact=3D

> > > s
> > > > > to believe is to decide which ones make you feel all warm and fuzzy
> > > > > inside.
> >

> > > > How is it possible to provide free health insurance for over 30 milli=

> on
> > > > people without it costing any money?
> >
> > > Has anyone said it won't cost anything?
> >

> > I don't save old posts. I seem to recall that several posters have told m=

> e
> > that it will save money.
>
> Saving money and not costing anything don't mean the same thing.

OK--how much will it cost to fund ObamaCare?

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03DDCF70AF8E...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

Jesus never discussed health insurance programs.

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03DDBD721678...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

We will have that sort of system when ObamaCare kicks in. The rich people
will not be part of the ObamaCare program. They will be able to afford to
buy a Cadillac type of health insurance plan. It will be very expensive.

However, they will not have to wait a year on any surgery waiting lists
like the rest of us will have to do. They will be able to get their
surgeries within the next several weeks.

[Devils Advocaat]

On Apr 23, 7:49 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article

> <e9036f1b-e1f8-4d6d-b9e8-e2779439d...@c28g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,

The nonpartisan analysts of the Congressional Budget Office says that
over ten years the deficit could be cut by $132 billion.

Yet Charles Blahous of the Mercatus Center said that it will add at
least $340 billion to the deficit.

I suspect, but cannot be certain, that your political buddies have
some influence at the Mercatus Center.

[John Ritson]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

> In article
> <dfritzin-A9DBD5...@news.eternal-september.org>, David
> Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <Jason-22041...@66-53-220-250.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
>> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <dfritzin-4A9402...@news.eternal-september.org>, David
>> > Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > In article
>> > > <Jason-21041...@66-53-219-87.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
>> > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > In article
>> > > > <dfritzin-9CB8B6...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> > > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > In article
>> > > > > <Jason-20041...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-
pacwest.com>,
>> > > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > In article

>> > > > > > <dfritzin-43590A...@news.eternal-

september.org>,
>> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > In article

>> > > > > > > <Jason-20041...@66-53-211-164.lsan.mdsg-
pacwest.co

>> > > > > > > m>,
>> > > > > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > In article

>> > > > > > > > <dfritzin-96FFDD...@news.eternal-
september.o

>> > > > > > > > rg>, David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
>> > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > In article

>> > > > > > > > > <Jason-19041...@67-150-126-156.lsan.mdsg-
pacwe

>> > > > > > > > > st.com>,
>> > > > > > > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > In article

>> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-779B82...@news.eternal-
septemb

>> > > > > > > Obama¹s or Romney¹s? - National economic policy |

It now emerges that one of the main reasons (apart from massive tax
evasion) for the Greek deficit was that little Greece was the world's
fifth-largest importer of military weapons.


--
John Ritson

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-22041...@66-53-216-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

The rich will ALWAYS get the best care because they
can pay for it. It is the poor and middle class who are
currently left to die or go broke paying medical bills.
Why are you defending that?






Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies
New York Times

Nearly two out of three bankruptcies stem from
medical bills, and even people with health
insurance face financial disaster if they
experience a serious illness, a new study shows.

"The U.S. health care financing system is broken,
and not only for the poor and uninsured," the
study authors wrote. "Middle-class families
frequently collapse under the strain of a health
care system that treats physical wounds, but often
inflicts fiscal ones."

Among families who were bankrupted by illness, those
with private insurance reported average medical bills
of $17,749 compared to those who were uninsured, who
faced an average of $26,971 in medical costs. Those
who had health insurance but lost it in the course
of their illness reported average medical bills of
$22,568.

Hospital costs accounted for about half the expenses
(48 percent), followed by prescription drugs
(18.6 percent), doctor’s bills (15.1 percent) and
insurance premiums (4.1 percent). Medical equipment
and nursing home care rounded out the list.
http://tinyurl.com/pm79ol

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<42b571d4-0b65-4c27...@x17g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> I suspect, but cannot be certain, that your political buddies have
> some influence at the Mercatus Center.

Good guess. The Mercatus center is funded by the Koch brothers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercatus_Center

"The Mercatus Center at George Mason University (GMU) in the United
States is a non-profit[1] market-oriented research, education, and
outreach think tank affiliated with the Koch family. It works with
policy experts, lobbyists, and government officials to connect academic
learning and real-world practice. The Mercatus Center takes its name
from the Latin word meaning "markets", and reflects the Center's free
market-based approach to solving public policy problems."

[David Fritzinger]

In article <Jason-22041...@66-53-216-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

You really are a liar. What Mitchell presented were true cases, along
with references to back up the truthfulness of what he wrote. What you
provided was made up by you, based on nothing but your own biases. You
truly are a dishonest person.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <XnsA03DAD487ECCC...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell
> Holman <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:

[snip]

> > 1) What is the wait time for people in the US
> > needing treatment who cannot afford insurance?
> >
> > 2) How many Swedes or Britons or Canadians have
> > been driven into bankruptcy by medical bills?
> >
> > 3) If socialized medicine is so bad why do the
> > countries using it cling to it religiously? Even
> > Maggie Thatcher for all her conservative bluster
> > never tried to get rid of the NHS.
>
> My concern is the cost. The national debt is now over 15 trillion dollars.
> Once ObamaCare goes into actions--the national debt will climb higher much
> faster than it normally would.
>
> I found the newspaper article that contained that information. The article
> was published April 10, 2012 in a newspaper. The URL is sanluisobispo.com
>
> The title of the article was "Obama health care plan adds to budget
> deficit, study says"
>
> It was first published in The Washington Post which is a liberal newspaper.
>
> The first sentence is below:
>
> "President Barack Obama's landmark health care initiative, long touted as
> a means to control costs, will actually add more than $340 billion to the
> nation's budget woes over the next decade, according to a new study by a
> member of the board that oversees Medicare financing...."

That non-story has been refuted, many times, by me and by others. Stop
your incessant lying.

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:Jason-2204122350510001@66-53-216-
70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

Jesus never refused to heal anyone because
they had a pre-existing condition.

[David Fritzinger]

In article <Jason-22041...@66-53-216-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <XnsA03DDCF70AF8E...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell
> Holman <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>

[snip]

> > Putting corporate profits over saving lives - is that "What
> > Jesus Would Do"?
>
> Jesus never discussed health insurance programs.

What a dishonest, disgusting cop-out. No wonder you are rapidly becoming
known as the most dishonest person to post here.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <dfritzin-BAC3C8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <Jason-22041...@66-53-220-250.stkn.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >

[snip]

> > > I don't save old posts. I seem to recall that several posters have told
> > > me
> > > that it will save money.
> >
> > What I said is that it will lower the deficit. That isn't my opinion, it
> > is the opinion of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. Now,
> > stop lying about what people here have said.
>
> I found the newspaper article that contained that information. The article
> was published April 10, 2012 in a newspaper. The URL is sanluisobispo.com
>
> The title of the article was "Obama health care plan adds to budget
> deficit, study says"
>
> It was first published in The Washington Post which is a liberal newspaper.
>
> The first sentence is below:
>
> "President Barack Obama's landmark health care initiative, long touted as
> a means to control costs, will actually add more than $340 billion to the
> nation's budget woes over the next decade, according to a new study by a
> member of the board that oversees Medicare financing...."

That article has been thoroughly refuted. I have provided evidence in
the past that does so. For you to bring up that thoroughly refuted
article again just shows how dishonest you are.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

[snip]

> I agree with you but the question is--can we afford it?

Since the CBO has said it will reduce the deficit, a better question is
"can we afford not to do it?"

>
> Free health care is one of the reasons Greece and Spain are both in danger
> of going belly up.

Stop lying. You have been told why Spain is in trouble. I did so myself.
Hint: it isn't "free" healthcare, since the healthcare is paid for by
taxes. Every time you talk about "free healthcare", you are lying, since
it is paid for.

Why do you want to keep a system that is the most expensive in the
world, yet offers worse outcomes than virtually every other advanced
country in the world? Do you hate the people of the US so much that you
want them to suffer because they can't afford insurance, are kicked out
of their plans once they really need the coverage, or have to go into
bankruptcy to pay their healthcare costs, despite the fact they have
insurance? Why do you hate the people of the US so?

[Tom McDonald]

No. He just gave everyone free health care.

WWJD? Universal health care.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-22041...@66-53-214-238.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

Stop lying. The panels to which you refer don't have any power to allow
or reject treatment in any cases. All they can do is make policy
recommendations. And, as I and others have told you, we already have
"death panels". They are run by the insurance companies you so love, and
make decisions to increase the profitability of the insurance company.
IOW, they are paid to reject claims.

Regarding Cheney, perhaps it should have been given to someone younger.
However, at least now we know for sure that Cheney has a heart.

You do realize that, under our current health care system, Ann Romney
would not be able to get health insurance, since she has MS, a
pre-existing condition. Therefore, the only reason she was able to get
treatment for her MS and her breast cancer is that MItt Romney is rich.
If she were born in a middle class family, she would have no coverage.
Do you think that is fair? It seems to me it is far less fair than
denying a heart transplant to an elderly person.

[Devils Advocaat]

On Apr 23, 2:03 pm, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
wrote:
> In article
> <42b571d4-0b65-4c27-acf7-fb310ac2c...@x17g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

>  Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I suspect, but cannot be certain, that your political buddies have
> > some influence at the Mercatus Center.
>

> Good guess. The Mercatus center is funded by the Koch brothers.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercatus_Center

>
> "The Mercatus Center at George Mason University (GMU) in the United
> States is a non-profit[1] market-oriented research, education, and
> outreach think tank affiliated with the Koch family. It works with
> policy experts, lobbyists, and government officials to connect academic
> learning and real-world practice. The Mercatus Center takes its name
> from the Latin word meaning "markets", and reflects the Center's free
> market-based approach to solving public policy problems."

That would explain the different deficit effects.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-90446B...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I exchanged posts with a lady that once lived in Greece. She told me that
most of the people in Greece don't send in their taxes or tell lies on the
tax forms they do send to the government. The officials (for some unknown
reason) don't make any efforts to go after the people that don't send in
their tax forms or lie on the tax forms that they did send in. I believed
her.

The officials in charge of Greece were mainly depending on loans to fund
their government and that may be the reason they were not concerned when a
majority of the population failed to pay their taxes.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-BA9F0E...@news.eternal-september.org>,

OK--what problems do you have with any of the above information?

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-BBAD46...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Are the figures incorrect? If so, did the Washington Post print a lie in
their newspaper?

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03E509644E62...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

Under ObamaCare--it still will happen. For example, if a 75 year old man
needs a heart transplant--he will have to pay for it himself since
ObamaCare will not pay for it. That will cause lots of families to become
bankrupted due to cost of a heart transplant and other types of surgeries
on people that are above 75 years old.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

As I said, we've been through this before, and your response was
identical. No, they printed a poor analysis in their newspaper. The only
liar is you, for posting this balderdash after it had been refuted.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

1) The guy who did the analysis was originally from the Bush
administration.
2) The Mercatus center is funded by the Koch brothers, who are notorious
for doing all they can to get any progressive legislation defeated.
3) It is clear it is biased:

"The Mercatus Center at George Mason University (GMU) in the United
States is a non-profit[1] market-oriented research, education, and
>outreach think tank affiliated with the Koch family.

4) You are a liar, because this was all explained to you before.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

So, what does that have to do with Greece being socialist. Considering
that you still have no conception of what socialism is, you should not
be making accusatioins.

>
> The officials in charge of Greece were mainly depending on loans to fund
> their government and that may be the reason they were not concerned when a
> majority of the population failed to pay their taxes.

It is noted that you totally avoided my discussion of Spain. You also
didn't bother to answer the part where I pointed out the major problems
with the US healthcare system. Why? Are you afraid to confront them,
knowing that it shows you to be a fool.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-9F7CE0...@news.eternal-september.org>,

No, it's not fair. My point that you have appeared to have missed is that
the main reason that I am against ObamaCare is due to the cost. Since over
30 million people will be covered by ObamaCare--it's my GUESS that it will
cost just as much as Medicare is presently costing.

I just heard a news broadcast that:

Social Security will run out of money in 2033 and Medicare will run out of
money in 2024.

If we can't afford to properly fund SS and Medicare--how can we afford to
fund ObamaCare?

I do concede that it would be great if the Federal Gov't paid all of our
health care costs.

If you want to know how ObamaCare will work, take a close look at Medicare
which is also a near-free health insurance program.

My 81 year old neighbor has Medicare and I help his daughter to take care
of him. He has to use his own money to pay for many of the costs of his
care. For example, when we took him to the emergency room--Medicare
refused to pay for many of those costs--including the ride in the
ambulance. The last time he fell down and got a major injury on his
head--when it hit the concrete--we bandaged it up as well as we could and
took him to the emergency room in her car. The nurse that lived near us
was very mad at us for failing to call for an ambulance. As you know, a
person that falls down should not be moved since they may have broke or
fractured a bone as a result of falling down. We now only allow him to go
outside to smoke--in a wheel chair. He still wants to use the walker to go
outside but we won't allow him to use the walker when he is going outside.


Her response was? We can't afford to call for an ambulance.

ObamaCare will probably work just the same.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-D9561E...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Is the statement a lie?

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03E51E581F65...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

Holman <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:

> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:Jason-2204122350510001@66-53-216-
> 70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
>
> > In article <XnsA03DDCF70AF8E...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell
> > Holman <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> So to sum up: People have to die because curing them costs
> >> money that the government does not have because hugely profitable
> >> companies like Exxon Mobil and Boeing and GE pay NO income taxes.
> >>
> >> Putting corporate profits over saving lives - is that "What
> >> Jesus Would Do"?
> >
> > Jesus never discussed health insurance programs.
>
>
> Jesus never refused to heal anyone because
> they had a pre-existing condition.

You are correct. Excellent point.

[Jason]

In article <lOclr.12195$M37...@newsfe01.iad>, Tom McDonald

Yes

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

It is not the truth.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-810CD0...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Several posters said that most medical insurance companies also will
refuse to pay for a heart transplant in a person that is over 70. I did
not know that information.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

This has been refuted time and time again. For you to bring it up, yet
again, just shows how dishonest you are.

>
> I just heard a news broadcast that:
>
> Social Security will run out of money in 2033 and Medicare will run out of
> money in 2024.

You do realize that the estimate that Medicare will run out of money in
2024 is based on the ACA being in place. Without it, Medicare will run
out money in 2016. Social Security an easily be fully funded by doing
one of 2 things, or both. They are 1) Collect Social Security taxes on
*all* income, including investment income., and 2) remove the wage
ceiling that is subject to the Social Security withholding tax. It is
now about $112,000/yr. The first would also help fund Medicare.

>
> If we can't afford to properly fund SS and Medicare--how can we afford to
> fund ObamaCare?

We can afford to fund Medicare and Social Security. I just pointed out
how.

>
> I do concede that it would be great if the Federal Gov't paid all of our
> health care costs.

Will you get this right, for once in your life?!?!? The "federal
government" will not be paying all the health care costs. Look at other
countries that have "socialized" medicine. Everyone is covered, *BUT*
everyone pays higher taxes to pay for it. That still makes it cheaper
than the current system in the US, which is the most expensive in the
world, and which is far from the best in the world.

>
> If you want to know how ObamaCare will work, take a close look at Medicare
> which is also a near-free health insurance program.

Unfortunately, the ACA will work nothing like Medicare. For you to say
it does shows you are either astoundingly stupid in uninformed, or you
are lying. Second, Medicare is *NOT* a free health insurance program. It
is covered by the taxes we all pay.

>
> My 81 year old neighbor has Medicare and I help his daughter to take care
> of him. He has to use his own money to pay for many of the costs of his
> care. For example, when we took him to the emergency room--Medicare
> refused to pay for many of those costs--including the ride in the
> ambulance. The last time he fell down and got a major injury on his
> head--when it hit the concrete--we bandaged it up as well as we could and
> took him to the emergency room in her car. The nurse that lived near us
> was very mad at us for failing to call for an ambulance. As you know, a
> person that falls down should not be moved since they may have broke or
> fractured a bone as a result of falling down. We now only allow him to go
> outside to smoke--in a wheel chair. He still wants to use the walker to go
> outside but we won't allow him to use the walker when he is going outside.
>
>

What does your little anecdote have to do with, well, anything?

> Her response was? We can't afford to call for an ambulance.
>
> ObamaCare will probably work just the same.

How do you know this? You obviously have no conception of how the ACA
will work. You clearly show that with your responses above.

Now, educate yourself, and come back when you have something honest and
intelligent to say. I'm not holding my breath.
8^(

[Tom McDonald]

On 4/23/2012 1:21 PM, Jason wrote:
> In article<lOclr.12195$M37...@newsfe01.iad>, Tom McDonald
> <tmcdon...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/23/2012 1:50 AM, Jason wrote:
>>> In article<XnsA03DDCF70AF8E...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell
>>> Holman<nomailcomcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

>>>> So to sum up: People have to die because curing them costs
>>>> money that the government does not have because hugely profitable
>>>> companies like Exxon Mobil and Boeing and GE pay NO income taxes.
>>>>
>>>> Putting corporate profits over saving lives - is that "What
>>>> Jesus Would Do"?
>>>
>>> Jesus never discussed health insurance programs.
>>>
>>>
>> No. He just gave everyone free health care.
>>
>> WWJD? Universal health care.
>
> Yes
>

Then who are you to deny it to us?

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-CA9266...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Does that mean the statement is a lie?

[Jason]

In article <0ghlr.24714$Ex1....@newsfe18.iad>, Tom McDonald

But we can't afford to provide over 30 million Americans with free health care.

[David Fritzinger]

The Post didn't lie. Let me be generous and say that the Mercato center
stretched the truth to the breaking point.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-0A3BD8...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I don't know about ObamaCare however--Medicare is a similar program.

Would this be a racist cartoon--they discussed this cartoon on a radio show:

The cartoon shows Mrs. Obama in the back yard cooking food in a WAK
(spelling??). A Wak is a Japanese cooking pan.

Obama is walking the dog.

Mrs. Obama says to Obama "Wak the Dog".

Is it racist?

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-0A6F73...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I don't have any problem with The Mercatus Center"

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-F734D7...@news.eternal-september.org>,

The situation in Spain is very different. I read an article about it about
two weeks ago. It was mainly related to something about a housing bubble
bursting.

[David Fritzinger]

I believe I gave you that information. Still, the situation in Greece
has nothing to do with socialism (people not paying taxes due is not
socialism), and has nothing to do with the US, unless we keep giving
huge tax breaks to the rich.

[David Fritzinger]

Of course you don't. They tell you what you want to hear. That they are
extremely biased in everything they say means nothing to you. All proof
that you are living a lie.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-B1E6FD...@news.eternal-september.org>,

OK

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <dfritzin-0A3BD8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

[snip]

> > > ObamaCare will probably work just the same.
> >
> > How do you know this? You obviously have no conception of how the ACA
> > will work. You clearly show that with your responses above.
> >
> > Now, educate yourself, and come back when you have something honest and
> > intelligent to say. I'm not holding my breath.
> > 8^(
>
> I don't know about ObamaCare however--Medicare is a similar program.

What a stupid statement. If you don't know about the ACA, why do you
spend so much time telling lies about it. The only similarity between
Medicare and the ACE is that they both provide a kind of health
insurance, that is paid for. That is all. If you knew, well, anything,
you would know that. However, you continue to display your proud
ignorance of virtually everything.

[snip off-topic foolishness]

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-7DFA36...@news.eternal-september.org>,

I believe the situation in Greece was related to over-spending on social
programs. It's also a problem in America.

I heard a news report today that stated:

Social security will run out of money in 2033.

Medicare will run out of money in 2024.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-37AB3C...@news.eternal-september.org>,

David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:

> In article
> <Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > In article <dfritzin-0A3BD8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> [snip]
> > > > ObamaCare will probably work just the same.
> > >
> > > How do you know this? You obviously have no conception of how the ACA
> > > will work. You clearly show that with your responses above.
> > >
> > > Now, educate yourself, and come back when you have something honest and
> > > intelligent to say. I'm not holding my breath.
> > > 8^(
> >
> > I don't know about ObamaCare however--Medicare is a similar program.
>
> What a stupid statement. If you don't know about the ACA, why do you
> spend so much time telling lies about it. The only similarity between
> Medicare and the ACE is that they both provide a kind of health
> insurance, that is paid for. That is all. If you knew, well, anything,
> you would know that. However, you continue to display your proud
> ignorance of virtually everything.
>
> [snip off-topic foolishness]

You still don't get it--People that have Medicare have to buy a
supplemental insurance program to pay the expenses that Medicare does not
pay.

Will ObamaCare be like that? I certainly hope not. Poor people can't
afford a supplemental policy.

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

>> >> >> > > >>> <Jason-20041...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest

What is your solution?

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-23041...@66-53-209-117.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

So what should those people do when they get sick?

[David Fritzinger]

What does that have to do with, well, anything. I knew that, but it has
exactly nothing to do with your claims about Medicare and the ACA.

>
> Will ObamaCare be like that? I certainly hope not. Poor people can't
> afford a supplemental policy.

No. I have an idea. Why don't you use that super computer you have, and
actually learn something about the ACA. Learn what it does, and how it's
paid for. Don't listen to Limbaugh or Faux, because they will lie about
it. The only thing you have to lose is your overwhelming aura of idiocy.

[David Fritzinger]

No, you are lying, since you stated the problem in another post. The
Greeks were tax cheats. That was the main problem. In the US, we are
overly stingy with helping the poor. And, in being that way, we are
destroying ourselves. Republicans want to cut Pell grants, and increase
the interest rate on college loans, meaning fewer Americans will be able
to go to college. They want to cut Head Start, meaning more young
children won't have a decent start in life, educationally. They want to
cut Food Stamps, meaning more poor will go hungry, and more poor
children will suffer from malnutrition. They want to cut EPA
regulations, meaning more pollution poisoning our children and us. Is
that really what you want?

> I heard a news report today that stated:
>
> Social security will run out of money in 2033.
> Medicare will run out of money in 2024.

I answered this in another post. You realize that before Congress
passed the ACA, it was estimated that Medicare would run out of money in
2015, meaning the ACA, which you hate so, added 8 years to Medicare
solvency.

These problems really are not that hard to solve. Make people pay
Medicare and Social Security taxes on investment income, like the rest
of us have to do on earned income. Remove the wage ceiling on Social
Security withholding, which is now about $112,000, making this an
extremely regressive tax. Tax all investment income the same as earned
income. That will do a lot to lower deficits.

>
> If we can't afford to properly fund SS and Medicare--how can we afford to
> fund ObamaCare?

Why do you continue to lie about this. The ACA will *save* money,
according to the CBO. That means it will lower the deficit. The ACA
ins't giving people free health care. It just makes it easier for
everyone to get health care, and removes the ability for insurance
companies to refuse to insure someone because of pre-existing
conditions. You have been told this many, many times, and you still
insist on lying about it. You really are a very dishonest person.

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03EAABB0637...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

I don't know. People believe that ObamaCare will be a cadilac health care
program. They will be learning the hard way that it will be more like a
Kia health insurance program that is very similar to Medicare which is
also an insurance plan that is managed by the federal government.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-85A62C...@news.eternal-september.org>,

The conservatives are saying that within about 20 to 50 years most all
health insurance companies will go out of business since many companies
will not be able to afford to pay them the huge amounts of money that is
needed to fund private medical insurance. The federal gov't will keep
adding on to those companies more and more things such as forcing them to
insure children up to the age of 25 years old.

[Jason]

In article <dfritzin-37E5A0...@news.eternal-september.org>,

We don't know what sorts of changes will be made in it before it is
implemented. I seem to recall they have already removed the nursing home
portion of ACA since they concluded that it would cost too much.

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03EB16013D42...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

The same things they are doing now.

[SkyEyes]

On Apr 23, 8:27 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> I don't know. People believe that ObamaCare will be a cadilac health care
> program.

I don't actually think most people believe that, no. I certainly
don't.

> They will be learning the hard way that it will be more like a
> Kia health insurance program that is very similar to Medicare which is
> also an insurance plan that is managed by the federal government.

And that's fine by me. If I want cosmetic surgery or some other non-
critical care, I'll pay for it myself. I just want my Kid Brother to
be able to get medical care for his preexisting conditions without
having to declare medical bankruptcy in order to get it.

He just spent 5 days in the hospital with a staph infection in his
foot - on *top* of cellulitis, which is chronic, and on *top* of
congestive heart failure. He had been sick for 8 days already, and
his kidneys were shutting down when we finally got him to go to the
ER. Since Jan Brewer kicked him off Arizona's Medicade program
(called AHCCCS), he has no insurance. The final bill looks like it's
going to go to six figures. How he's going to pay that on a
carpenter's salary is beyond me. If we'd had something like a
national health service, he'd have gone to have the infected foot
looked at a week earlier, and probably gotten off with a prescription
for oral antibiotics. Now he's spent 5 days in a hospital and must
spend another 10 having three IV antibiotic injections per day (at a
cost of $36 each), plus a visit each week from Home Nursing at $100/
hour.

Yeah, I'll take Obamacare. If I can't get Single Payer. I'll take
blood *anything* other than the system we've currently got.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@67-150-123-246.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

No comment? Why do you always avoid the sort of information that shows
how ignorant you are.

> > >
> > > Will ObamaCare be like that? I certainly hope not. Poor people can't
> > > afford a supplemental policy.
> >
> > No. I have an idea. Why don't you use that super computer you have, and
> > actually learn something about the ACA. Learn what it does, and how it's
> > paid for. Don't listen to Limbaugh or Faux, because they will lie about
> > it. The only thing you have to lose is your overwhelming aura of idiocy.

No comment here either, except for you statement of ignorance. Well, at
least that part was truthful.

>
> We don't know what sorts of changes will be made in it before it is
> implemented. I seem to recall they have already removed the nursing home
> portion of ACA since they concluded that it would cost too much.

The main parts of the ACA will remain. Your answer is nothing more than
a cop out. You truly are dishonest.

[David Fritzinger]

In article
<Jason-23041...@67-150-123-246.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,

No point here? Why not? It couldn't be because it shows how utterly
dishonest you are, could it?

> >
> > These problems really are not that hard to solve. Make people pay
> > Medicare and Social Security taxes on investment income, like the rest
> > of us have to do on earned income. Remove the wage ceiling on Social
> > Security withholding, which is now about $112,000, making this an
> > extremely regressive tax. Tax all investment income the same as earned
> > income. That will do a lot to lower deficits.

No comment here? Why don't you respond to points that show your
dishonesty.

> >
> >
> > >
> > > If we can't afford to properly fund SS and Medicare--how can we afford to
> > > fund ObamaCare?
> >
> > Why do you continue to lie about this. The ACA will *save* money,
> > according to the CBO. That means it will lower the deficit. The ACA
> > ins't giving people free health care. It just makes it easier for
> > everyone to get health care, and removes the ability for insurance
> > companies to refuse to insure someone because of pre-existing
> > conditions. You have been told this many, many times, and you still
> > insist on lying about it. You really are a very dishonest person.
>
> The conservatives are saying that within about 20 to 50 years most all
> health insurance companies will go out of business since many companies
> will not be able to afford to pay them the huge amounts of money that is
> needed to fund private medical insurance. The federal gov't will keep
> adding on to those companies more and more things such as forcing them to
> insure children up to the age of 25 years old.

Changing the subject yet again, I see. Your statement above is
nonsensical. Insurance companies will get *MORE* business, not less,
since everyone will have to have health insurance. The only thing is
that they won't be able to exclude people for pre-existing conditions or
set a lifetime cap so that they can cut people off when they really need
the insurance. Are you against that?

As I have said before, under Romney's (non)plan, Mrs. Romney wouldn't
have been able to get health insurance because she is suffering from a
pre-existing, chronic condition, MS. The only reason she is able to
afford treatment is that she is rich. Is that how yo want the US to be?

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-23041...@67-150-123-246.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

Yes you do. You want sick people to just
die if they cannot afford treatment.

> People believe that ObamaCare will be a cadilac health
> care program. They will be learning the hard way that it will be more
> like a Kia health insurance program that is very similar to Medicare
> which is also an insurance plan that is managed by the federal
> government.

People WANT government coverage. Why do you
think NO country with socialized medicine has voted
to ditch it in favor of the American system? Even
when conservatives win power in Australia and
Canada and France they know better than to touch
the public health care system.

[Alex W.]

In Britain, it's the third rail of politics. Touch the NHS and
risk a fiery death at the polls. The voters can take reduced
military spending, reduced welfare spending, reduced anything in
fact, but be seen to cut healthcare (or even just advocate this)
and your career is pretty much over. It's less lethal for a
British politician to be caught with his pants down than sniping
at the NHS.

[Free Lunch]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:54:33 +0100, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:

The entrenched interests in the United States know that a single payer
system would be far more popular than the current insurance company
rip-off, but they do their best to buy both parties to keep reform from
happening.

[Alex W.]

Don't underestimate ideology, either. The reasoning that
underpins the resistance to single-payer systems is rooted in
several potent streams of political thought that go way back in
American politics; a belief in the cure-all properties of free
markets, a fatalistic if not deterrministic attitude of "God will
provide", and a deep and abiding distrust of government in all
its forms do not require buying off by insurance companies to dig
in their heels over such proposals.

[Mitchell Holman]

"Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in

news:1jd6yidokh7h.1lg1sqv4i7k8s$.d...@40tude.net:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:03:12 -0500, Free Lunch wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:54:33 +0100, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>>>On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 07:01:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
>>>> news:Jason-23041...@67-150-123-246.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
>>>>
>>>>

Conservatives never object to government spending
as long as it benefits THEM. Personally.




GOP frosh: Where's my health care?
11/15/10

A conservative Maryland physician elected to Congress on
an anti-Obamacare platform surprised fellow freshmen at
a Monday orientation session by demanding to know why his
government-subsidized health care plan takes a month to
kick in.

Republican Andy Harris, an anesthesiologist who defeated
freshman Democrat Frank Kratovil on Maryland's Eastern
Shore, reacted incredulously when informed that federal
law mandated that his government-subsidized health care
policy would take effect on Feb. 1 - 28 days after his
Jan. 3rd swearing-in.

"Harris asked if he could purchase insurance from the
government to cover the gap," added the aide, who was
struck by the similarity to Harris's request and the
public option he denounced as a gateway to socialized
medicine.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45181.html#ixzz1ryjNY5On

[Jason]

In article <XnsA03F469F9DE1...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell

Romney will put an end to it if the polls show that over 50% of Americans
are opposed to it.

[Jason]

In article <13dn0z99lv4rr.1...@40tude.net>,

That's true but what will happen if the gov't goes belly up like the gov't
of Greece may do before the end of the year?

[Mitchell Holman]

Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
news:Jason-25041...@67-150-126-160.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:

> In article <XnsA03F469F9DE1...@216.196.121.131>, Mitchell
> Holman <nomailcomcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
>> news:Jason-23041...@67-150-123-246.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com:
>>
>> >> >

>> >> > Under ObamaCare--it still will happen. For example, if a 75 year
>> >> > old man needs a heart transplant--he will have to pay for it
>> >> > himself since ObamaCare will not pay for it. That will cause
>> >> > lots of families to become bankrupted due to cost of a heart
>> >> > transplant and other types of surgeries on people that are above
>> >> > 75 years old.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> What is your solution?
>> >
>> > I don't know.
>>
>>
>> Yes you do. You want sick people to just
>> die if they cannot afford treatment.
>>
>>
>> > People believe that ObamaCare will be a cadilac health
>> > care program. They will be learning the hard way that it will be
>> > more like a Kia health insurance program that is very similar to
>> > Medicare which is also an insurance plan that is managed by the
>> > federal government.
>>
>> People WANT government coverage. Why do you
>> think NO country with socialized medicine has voted
>> to ditch it in favor of the American system? Even
>> when conservatives win power in Australia and
>> Canada and France they know better than to touch
>> the public health care system.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Romney will put an end to it if the polls show that over 50% of
> Americans are opposed to it.

Presidents cannot "put an end" to previously
enacted laws by themselves, Jason. Was basic civics
not taught in your one room schoolhouse?