Re: Why do Muslims think that Islam is true. Is there any factual basis?
arah
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 13:01:30 +0300, in uk.religion.islam, Firnando
> <geovani_the_ital...@yahoo.com>, wrote
>
> >Why do Muslims think that Islam is true. Is there any factual basis?
>
> They are either born into it or are fools like you. There is no 'factual
> basis' for islam. It is the religion of thieves and murderers.
How I Embraced Islam
A Christian Minister's Conversion to Islam - Yusuf Estes
I was born into a very strong Christian family in the Midwest. Our
family and their ancestors not only built the churches and schools
across this land, but actually were the same ones who came here in the
first place. While I was still in elementary we relocated in Houston,
Texas in 1949 (I'm old). We attended church regularly and I was
baptized at the age of 12 in Pasadena, Texas. As a teenager, I wanted
to visit other churches to learn more of their teachings and beliefs.
The Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Charismatic movements,
Nazarene, Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of God in Christ,
Full Gospel, Agape, Catholic, Presbyterian and many more. I developed
quite a thirst for the "Gospel" or as we say; "Good News." My research
into religion did not stop with Christianity. Not at all. Hinduism,
Judaism, Buddhism, Metaphysics, native American beliefs were all a
part of my studies. Just about the only one that I did not look into
seriously was "Islam". Why? Good question.
Anyway, I became very interested in different types of music,
especially Gospel and Classical. Because my whole family was religious
and musical it followed that I too would begin my studies in both
areas. All this set me for the logical position of Music Minister in
many of the churches that I became affiliated with over the years. I
started teaching keyboard instruments in 1960 and by 1963 owned my own
studios in Laurel, Maryland, called "Estes Music Studios."
Over the next 30 years my father and I worked together in many
business projects. We had entertainment programs, shows and
attractions. We opened piano and organ stores all the way from Texas
and Oklahoma to Florida. I made millions of dollars in those years,
but could not find the peace of mind that can only come through
knowing the truth and finding the real plan of salvation. I'm sure you
have asked yourself the question; "Why did God create me?" or "What is
it that God wants me to do?" or "Exactly who is God, anyway?" "Why do
we believe in 'original sin?" and "Why would the sons of Adam be
forced to accept his 'sins' and then as a result be punished forever.
But if you asked anyone these questions, they would probably tell you
that you have to believe without asking, or that it is a 'mystery' and
you shouldn't ask.
And then there is the concept of the 'Trinity.' If I would ask
preachers or ministers to give me some sort of an idea how 'one' could
figure out to become 'three' or how God Himself, Who can do anything
He Wills to do, cannot just forgive people's sins, but rather and had
to become a man, come down on earth, be a human, and then take on the
sins of all people. Keeping in mind that all along He is still God of
the whole universe and does as He Wills to do, both in and outside of
the universe as we know it.
Then one day in 1991, I came to know that the Muslims believed in the
Bible. I was shocked. How could this be? But that's not all, they
believe in Jesus as:
A true messenger of God;
Prophet of God;
Miracle birth without human intervention;
He is with God now
He was the 'Christ' or Messiah as predicted in the Bible;
And most important, he will be coming back in the Last Days to lead
the believers against the 'Antichrist.'
This was too much for me, especially since the evangelists that we
used to travel around with all hated Muslims and Islam very much. They
even said things that were not true to make people afraid of Islam.
So, why would I want anything to do with these people?
Meeting the First Muslim
My father was very active in supporting church work, especially church
school programs. He becae and ordained minister in the 1970s. He and
his wife (my stepmother) knew many of the TV evangelists and preachers
and even visited Oral Roberts and helped in the building of the
"Prayer Tower" in Tulsa, OK. They also were strong supporters of Jimmy
Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Fae Bakker, Jerry Fallwell, John Haggi and the
biggest enemy to Islam in America, Pat Robertson.
Father of Yusuf Estes
Dad and his wife worked together and were most active in recording
"Praise" tapes and distributing them for free to people in retirement
homes, hospitals and homes for the elderly. And then in 1991 he began
doing business with a man from Egypt and told me that he wanted me to
meet him. This idea appealed to me when I thought about the idea of
having an international flavor. You know, the pyramids, sphinx, Nile
River and all that. Then my father mentioned that this man was a
'Moslem.' I couldn't believe my ears. A 'Moslem?' No way. I reminded
my dad of the various different things that we had heard about these
people, how they are terrorists, hijackers, kidnappers, bombers and
who knows what else? Not to mention that: they don't believe in God;
they kiss the ground five times a day and they worship a black box in
the desert.
No. I did not want to meet this 'Moslem' man. No way. My father
insisted that I meet him and reassured me that he was a very nice
person. So, I gave in and agreed to the meeting. But on my terms. I
agreed to meet him on a Sunday after church so we would be all prayed
up and in good standing with the Lord. I would be carrying my Bible
under my arm as usual. I would have my big shiny cross dangling and I
would have on my cap which says: "Jesus is Lord" right across the
front. My wife and two young daughters came along and we were ready
for our first encounter with the 'Moslems.'
When I came into the shop and asked my father where the 'Moslem' was,
he pointed and said: "He's right over there." I was confused. That
couldn't be the Moslem. No way. I'm looking for a huge man with
flowing robes and big turban on his head, a beard half way down his
shirt and eyebrows that go all the way across his forehead.
This man had no beard. In fact, he didn't even have any hair on his
head at all. He was very close to bald. And he was very pleasant with
a warm welcome and handshake. This didn't make sense. I thought they
are terrorists and bombers. What is this all about?
Surprised At What Muslims Believe
Never mind. I'll get right to work on this guy. He needs to be 'saved'
and me and the Lord are going to do it. So, after a quick
introduction, I asked him:
"Do you believe in God?"
He said: "Yes." (Good!)
Then I said: "Do you believe in Adam and Eve?"
He said: "Yes."
I said: "What about Abraham? You believe in him and how he tried to
sacrifice his son for God?"
He said: "Yes."
Then I asked: "What about Moses?"
Again he said: "Yes."
Then: "What about the other prophets, David, Solomon and John the
Baptist?"
He said: "Yes."
I asked: "Do you believe in the Bible?"
Again, he said: "Yes."
So, now it was time for the big question: "Do you believe in Jesus?
That he was the Christ of God?"
Again he said: "Yes."
Well, now, this was going to be easier than I had thought. He was just
about ready to be baptized only he didn't know it. And I was just the
one to do it, too. I was winning souls to the Lord day after day and
this would be a big achievement for me, to catch one of these
'Moslems' and 'convert' him to Christianity. I asked him if he liked
tea and he said he did. So off we went to a little shop in the mall to
sit and talk about my favorite subject: Beliefs. While we sat in that
little coffee shop for hours talking (I did most of the talking) I
came to know that he was very nice, quiet and even a bit shy. He
listened attentively to every word that I had to say and did not
interrupt even one time. I liked this man's way and thought that he
had definite potential to become a good Christian. Little did I know
the course of events about to unravel in front of my eyes.
First of all, I agreed with my father that we should do business with
this man and even encouraged the idea of him traveling along with me
on my business trips across the northern part of Texas. Day after day
we would ride together and discuss various issues pertaining to
different beliefs that people have. And along the way, I could of
course interject some of my favorite radio programs of worship and
praise to help bring the message to this poor individual. We talked
about the concept of God; the meaning of life; the purpose of
creation; the prophets and their mission and how God reveals His Will
to mankind. We also shared a lot of personal experiences and ideas as
well.
One day I came to know that my friend Mohamed was going to move out of
the home he had been sharing with a friend of his and was going to be
living in the mosque for a time. I went to my dad and asked him if we
could invite Mohamed to come out to our big home in the country and
stay there with us. After all, he could share some of the work and
some expenses and he would be right there when we were ready to go
traveling around. My father agreed and Mohamed moved in. Of course I
still would find time to visit my fellow preachers and evangelists
around the state of Texas. One of them lived on the Texas — Mexico
border and another lived near the Oklahoma border. One preacher liked
to a huge wooden cross that was bigger than a car. He would carry it
over his shoulder and drag the bottom on the ground and go down the
road or freeway hauling these two beams formed in the shape of a
cross. People would stop their cars and come over to him and ask him
what was going on and he would give them pamphlets and booklets on
Christianity.
Group Discussions on Faith
One day my friend with the cross had a heart attack and had to go to
the Veterans Hospital where he stayed for quite a long while. I used
to visit him in the hospital several times a week and I would take
Mohamed with me with the hopes that we could all share together in the
subject of beliefs and religions. My friend was not very impressed and
it was obvious that he did not want to know anything about Islam. Then
one day a man who was sharing the room with my friend came rolling
into the room in his wheelchair. I went to him and asked him his name
and he said that it didn't matter and when I asked him where he was
from he said he was from the planet Jupiter. I thought about what he
said and then began to wonder if I was in the cardiac ward or the
mental ward. I knew the man was lonely and depressed and needed
someone in his life. So, I began to 'witness' to him about the Lord. I
read to him out of the book of Jonah in the Old Testament. I shared
the story of the prophet Jonah who had been sent by the Lord to call
his people to the correct way. Jonah had left his people and escaped
by boat to leave his city and head out to sea. A storm came up and the
ship almost capsized and the people on board threw Jonah over the side
of the ship. A whale came up to the surface and grabbed Jonah,
swallowed him and then went down to the bottom of the sea, where he
stayed for 3 days and 3 nights. Yet because of God's Mercy, He caused
the whale to rise to the surface and then spit Jonah out to return
back home safely to his city of Nineveh. And the idea was that we
can't really run away from our problems because we always know what we
have done. And what is more, God also always knows what we have done.
After sharing this story with the man in the wheelchair, he looked up
at me and apologized. He told me he was sorry for his rude behavior
and that he had experienced some real serious problems recently. Then
he said that he wanted to confess something to me. And I said that I
was not a Catholic priest and I don't handle confessions. He replied
back to me that he knew that. In fact, he said: "I am a Catholic
priest." I was shocked. Here I had been trying to preach Christianity
to a priest. What in the world was happening here? The priest began to
share his story of being a missionary for the church for over 12 years
to south and Central America and Mexico and even in New York's 'Hell's
Kitchen.' When he was released from the hospital he needed a place to
go to recover and rather than let him go to stay with a Catholic
family, I told my dad that we should invite him to come out and live
with us in the country along with our families and Mohamed. It was
agreed by all that he would so, he moved out right away.
During the trip out to our home, I talked with the priest about some
of the concepts of beliefs in Islam and to my surprise he agreed and
then shared even more about this with me. I was shocked when he told
me that Catholic priests actually study Islam and some even carry
doctors degrees in this subject. This was all very enlightening to me.
But there was still a lot more to come.
After settling in, we all began to gather around the kitchen table
after dinner every night to discuss religion. My father would bring
his King James Version of the Bible, I would bring out my Revised
Standard Version of the Bible, my wife had another version of the
Bible (maybe something like Jimmy Swaggart's 'Good News For Modern
Man." The priest of course, had the Catholic Bible which has 7 more
books in it that the Protestant Bible. So we spent more time talking
about which Bible was the right one or the most correct one, than we
did trying to convince Mohamed about becoming a Christian.
At one point I recall asking him about the Quran and how many versions
of it there were in the last 1,400 years. He told me that there was
only ONE QURAN. And that it had never been changed. Yet he let me know
that the Quran had been memorized by hundreds of thousands of people,
in it's entirety and was scattered about the earth in many different
countries. Over the centuries since the Quran was revealed millions
have memorized it completely and have taught it to others who have
memorized it completely, from cover to cover, letter perfect without
mistakes.
This did not seem possible to me. After all, the original languages of
the Bible have all been dead languages for centuries and the documents
themselves have been lost in their originals for hundreds and
thousands of years. So, how could it be that something like this could
be so easy to preserve and to recite from cover to cover.
The Catholic Priest Converts to Islam
Anyway, one day the priest asked Mohamed if he might accompany him to
the mosque to see what it was like there. They came back talking about
their experience there and we could not wait to ask the priest what it
was like and what types of ceremonies they performed. He said they
didn't really 'do' anything. They just came and prayed and left. I
said: "They left? Without any speeches or singing?" He said that was
right. A few more days went by and the Catholic priest asked Mohamed
if he might join him again for a trip to the mosque which they did.
But this time it was different. They did not come back for a very long
time. It became dark and we worried that something might have happened
to them. Finally they arrived and when they came in the door I
immediately recognized Mohamed, but who was this alongside of him?
Someone wearing a white robe and a white cap. Hold on a minute! It was
the priest. I said to him: "Pete? — Did you become a 'Moslem?' He said
that he had entered into Islam that very day. THE PRIEST BECAME A
MUSLIM!! What next? (You'll see).
I Follow Him and Submit Myself to God
So, I went upstairs to think things over a bit and began to talk to my
wife about the whole subject. She then told me that she too was going
to enter into Islam, because she knew it was the truth. I was really
shocked now. I went downstairs and woke up Mohamed and asked him to
come outside with me for a discussion. We walked and talked that whole
night through. By the time he was ready to pray Fajr (the morning
prayer of the Muslims) I knew that the truth had come at last and now
it was up to me to do my part. I went out back behind my father's
house and found an old piece of plywood lying under an overhang and
right there I put my head down on the ground facing the direction that
the Muslims pray five times a day.
Now then in that position, with my body stretched out on the plywood
and my head on the ground, I asked: "O God. If you are there, guide
me, guide me." And then after a while I raised up my head and I
noticed something. No, I didn't see birds or angels coming out of the
sky nor did I hear voices or music, nor did I see bright lights and
flashes. What I did notice was a change inside of me. I was aware now
more than ever before that it was time for me to stop lying and
cheating and doing sneaky business deals. It was time that I really
work at being an honest and upright man. I knew now what I had to do.
So I went upstairs and took a shower with the distinct idea that I was
'washing' away the sinful old person that I had become over the years.
And I was now coming into a new, fresh life. A life based on truth and
proof.
Around 11:00 A.M. that morning, I stood before two witnesses, one the
ex-priest, formerly known as Father Peter Jacob's, and the other
Mohamed Abel Rehman and announced my 'shahadah' (open testimony to the
Oneness of God and the prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him).
My Wife and My Father Follow and Convert to Islam
http://www.islamicbulletin.com/newsletters/issue_23/embraced.aspx
Seon Ferguson
"arah" wrote in message
news:d864bbce-3487-4417...@m5g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 18, 8:17 pm, FACE <AFaceInTheCr...@today.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 13:01:30 +0300, in uk.religion.islam, Firnando
> <geovani_the_ital...@yahoo.com>, wrote
>
> >Why do Muslims think that Islam is true. Is there any factual basis?
>
> They are either born into it or are fools like you. There is no 'factual
> basis' for islam. It is the religion of thieves and murderers.
>How I Embraced Islam
>A Christian Minister's Conversion to Islam - Yusuf Estes
• R. L. Measures.
"A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many
regrets."
---Arthur Charles Clarke
--
Richard L. Measures. AG6K, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
duke
sex.
The dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
arah
>
> As usual, arah doesn't answer the actual question.
Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in
Psychology from the University of Denver
Dr. Jerald F. Dirks
Former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a
Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in
Psychology from the University of Denver. Author of The Cross and the
Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam (ISBN
1-59008-002-5 - Amana Publications, 2001). He has published over 60
articles in the field of clinical psychology, and over 150 articles on
Arabian horses
A CHRISTIAN MINISTER’S CONVERSION TO ISLAM
One of my earliest childhood memories is of hearing the church bell
toll for Sunday morning worship in the small, rural town in which I
was raised. The Methodist Church was an old, wooden structure with a
bell tower, two children’s Sunday School classrooms cubbyholed behind
folding, wooden doors to separate it from the sanctuary, and a choir
loft that housed the Sunday school classrooms for the older children.
It stood less than two blocks from my home. As the bell rang, we
would come together as a family, and make our weekly pilgrimage to the
church.
In that rural setting from the 1950s, the three churches in the town
of about 500 were the center of community life. The local Methodist
Church, to which my family belonged, sponsored ice cream socials with
hand-cranked, homemade ice cream, chicken potpie dinners, and corn
roasts. My family and I were always involved in all three, but each
came only once a year. In addition, there was a two-week community
Bible school every June, and I was a regular attendee through my
eighth grade year in school. However, Sunday morning worship and
Sunday school were weekly events, and I strove to keep extending my
collection of perfect attendance pins and of awards for memorizing
Bible verses.
By my junior high school days, the local Methodist Church had closed,
and we were attending the Methodist Church in the neighboring town,
which was only slightly larger than the town in which I lived. There,
my thoughts first began to focus on the ministry as a personal
calling. I became active in the Methodist Youth Fellowship, and
eventually served as both a district and a conference officer. I also
became the regular “preacher” during the annual Youth Sunday service.
My preaching began to draw community-wide attention, and before long I
was occasionally filling pulpits at other churches, at a nursing home,
and at various church-affiliated youth and ladies groups, where I
typically set attendance records.
By age 17, when I began my freshman year at Harvard College, my
decision to enter the ministry had solidified. During my freshman
year, I enrolled in a two-semester course in comparative religion,
which was taught by Wilfred Cantwell Smith, whose specific area of
expertise was Islam. During that course, I gave far less attention to
Islam, than I did to other religions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism,
as the latter two seemed so much more esoteric and strange to me. In
contrast, Islam appeared to be somewhat similar to my own
Christianity. As such, I didn’t concentrate on it as much as I
probably should have, although I can remember writing a term paper for
the course on the concept of revelation in the Qur’an. Nonetheless,
as the course was one of rigorous academic standards and demands, I
did acquire a small library of about a half dozen books on Islam, all
of which were written by non-Muslims, and all of which were to serve
me in good stead 25 years later. I also acquired two different
English translations of the meaning of the Qur’an, which I read at the
time.
That spring, Harvard named me a Hollis Scholar, signifying that I was
one of the top pre-theology students in the college. The summer
between my freshman and sophomore years at Harvard, I worked as a
youth minister at a fairly large United Methodist Church. The
following summer, I obtained my License to Preach from the United
Methodist Church. Upon graduating from Harvard College in 1971, I
enrolled at the Harvard Divinity School, and there obtained my Master
of Divinity degree in 1974, having been previously ordained into the
Deaconate of the United Methodist Church in 1972, and having
previously received a Stewart Scholarship from the United Methodist
Church as a supplement to my Harvard Divinity School scholarships.
During my seminary education, I also completed a two-year externship
program as a hospital chaplain at Peter Bent Brigham Hospital in
Boston. Following graduation from Harvard Divinity School, I spent
the summer as the minister of two United Methodist churches in rural
Kansas, where attendance soared to heights not seen in those churches
for several years.
Seen from the outside, I was a very promising young minister, who had
received an excellent education, drew large crowds to the Sunday
morning worship service, and had been successful at every stop along
the ministerial path. However, seen from the inside, I was fighting a
constant war to maintain my personal integrity in the face of my
ministerial responsibilities. This war was far removed from the ones
presumably fought by some later televangelists in unsuccessfully
trying to maintain personal sexual morality. Likewise, it was a far
different war than those fought by the headline-grabbing pedophilic
priests of the current moment. However, my struggle to maintain
personal integrity may be the most common one encountered by the
better-educated members of the ministry.
There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest,
and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best
of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard
Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the
seminarian is exposed to as much of the actual historical truth as is
known about: 1) the formation of the early, “mainstream” church, and
how it was shaped by geopolitical considerations; 2) the “original”
reading of various Biblical texts, many of which are in sharp contrast
to what most Christians read when they pick up their Bible, although
gradually some of this information is being incorporated into newer
and better translations; 3) the evolution of such concepts as a triune
godhead and the “sonship” of Jesus, peace be upon him; 4) the non-
religious considerations that underlie many Christian creeds and
doctrines; 5) the existence of those early churches and Christian
movements which never accepted the concept of a triune godhead, and
which never accepted the concept of the divinity of Jesus, peace be
upon him; and 6) etc. (Some of these fruits of my seminary education
are recounted in more detail in my recent book, The Cross and the
Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam,
Amana Publications, 2001.)
As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary
graduates leave seminary, not to “fill pulpits”, where they would be
asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the
various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I
went on to earn a master’s and doctorate in clinical psychology. I
continued to call myself a Christian, because that was a needed bit of
self-identity, and because I was, after all, an ordained minister,
even though my full time job was as a mental health professional.
However, my seminary education had taken care of any belief I might
have had regarding a triune godhead or the divinity of Jesus, peace be
upon him. (Polls regularly reveal that ministers are less likely to
believe these and other dogmas of the church than are the laity they
serve, with ministers more likely to understand such terms as “son of
God” metaphorically, while their parishioners understand it
literally.) I thus became a “Christmas and Easter Christian”,
attending church very sporadically, and then gritting my teeth and
biting my tongue as I listened to sermons espousing that which I knew
was not the case.
None of the above should be taken to imply that I was any less
religious or spiritually oriented than I had once been. I prayed
regularly, my belief in a supreme deity remained solid and secure, and
I conducted my personal life in line with the ethics I had once been
taught in church and Sunday school. I simply knew better than to buy
into the man-made dogmas and articles of faith of the organized
church, which were so heavily laden with the pagan influences,
polytheistic notions, and geo-political considerations of a bygone
era.
As the years passed by, I became increasingly concerned about the loss
of religiousness in American society at large. Religiousness is a
living, breathing spirituality and morality within individuals, and
should not be confused with religiosity, which is concerned with the
rites, rituals, and formalized creeds of some organized entity, e.g.
the church. American culture increasingly appeared to have lost its
moral and religious compass. Two out of every three marriages ended
in divorce; violence was becoming an increasingly inherent part of our
schools and our roads; self-responsibility was on the wane; self-
discipline was being submerged by a “if it feels good, do it”
morality; various Christian leaders and institutions were being
swamped by sexual and financial scandals; and emotions justified
behavior, however odious it might be. American culture was becoming a
morally bankrupt institution, and I was feeling quite alone in my
personal religious vigil.
It was at this juncture that I began to come into contact with the
local Muslim community. For some years before, my wife and I had been
actively involved in doing research on the history of the Arabian
horse. Eventually, in order to secure translations of various Arabic
documents, this research brought us into contact with Arab Americans
who happened to be Muslims. Our first such contact was with Jamal in
the summer of 1991.
After an initial telephone conversation, Jamal visited our home, and
offered to do some translations for us, and to help guide us through
the history of the Arabian horse in the Middle East. Before Jamal
left that afternoon, he asked if he might: use our bathroom to wash
before saying his scheduled prayers; and borrow a piece of newspaper
to use as a prayer rug, so he could say his scheduled prayers before
leaving our house. We, of course, obliged, but wondered if there was
something more appropriate that we could give him to use than a
newspaper. Without our ever realizing it at the time, Jamal was
practicing a very beautiful form of Dawa (preaching or exhortation).
He made no comment about the fact that we were not Muslims, and he
didn’t preach anything to us about his religious beliefs. He “merely”
presented us with his example, an example that spoke volumes, if one
were willing to be receptive to the lesson.
Over the next 16 months, contact with Jamal slowly increased in
frequency, until it was occurring on a biweekly to weekly basis.
During these visits, Jamal never preached to me about Islam, never
questioned me about my own religious beliefs or convictions, and never
verbally suggested that I become a Muslim. However, I was beginning
to learn a lot. First, there was the constant behavioral example of
Jamal observing his scheduled prayers. Second, there was the
behavioral example of how Jamal conducted his daily life in a highly
moral and ethical manner, both in his business world and in his social
world. Third, there was the behavioral example of how Jamal
interacted with his two children. For my wife, Jamal’s wife provided
a similar example. Fourth, always within the framework of helping me
to understand Arabian horse history in the Middle East, Jamal began to
share with me: 1) stories from Arab and Islamic history; 2) sayings
of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him; and 3) Qur’anic verses and
their contextual meaning. In point of fact, our every visit now
included at least a 30 minute conversation centered on some aspect of
Islam, but always presented in terms of helping me intellectually
understand the Islamic context of Arabian horse history. I was never
told “this is the way things are”, I was merely told “this is what
Muslims typically believe”. Since I wasn’t being “preached to”, and
since Jamal never inquired as to my own beliefs, I didn’t need to
bother attempting to justify my own position. It was all handled as
an intellectual exercise, not as proselytizing.
Gradually, Jamal began to introduce us to other Arab families in the
local Muslim community. There was Wa’el and his family, Khalid and
his family, and a few others. Consistently, I observed individuals
and families who were living their lives on a much higher ethical
plane than the American society in which we were all embedded. Maybe
there was something to the practice of Islam that I had missed during
my collegiate and seminary days.
By December, 1992, I was beginning to ask myself some serious
questions about where I was and what I was doing. These questions
were prompted by the following considerations. 1) Over the course of
the prior 16 months, our social life had become increasingly centered
on the Arab component of the local Muslim community. By December,
probably 75% of our social life was being spent with Arab Muslims. 2)
By virtue of my seminary training and education, I knew how badly the
Bible had been corrupted (and often knew exactly when, where, and
why), I had no belief in any triune godhead, and I had no belief in
anything more than a metaphorical “sonship” of Jesus, peace be upon
him. In short, while I certainly believed in God, I was as strict a
monotheist as my Muslim friends. 3) My personal values and sense of
morality were much more in keeping with my Muslim friends than with
the “Christian” society around me. After all, I had the non-
confrontational examples of Jamal, Khalid, and Wa’el as
illustrations. In short, my nostalgic yearning for the type of
community in which I had been raised was finding gratification in the
Muslim community. American society might be morally bankrupt, but
that did not appear to be the case for that part of the Muslim
community with which I had had contact. Marriages were stable,
spouses were committed to each other, and honesty, integrity, self-
responsibility, and family values were emphasized. My wife and I had
attempted to live our lives that same way, but for several years I had
felt that we were doing so in the context of a moral vacuum. The
Muslim community appeared to be different.
The different threads were being woven together into a single strand.
Arabian horses, my childhood upbringing, my foray into the Christian
ministry and my seminary education, my nostalgic yearnings for a moral
society, and my contact with the Muslim community were becoming
intricately intertwined. My self-questioning came to a head when I
finally got around to asking myself exactly what separated me from the
beliefs of my Muslim friends. I suppose that I could have raised that
question with Jamal or with Khalid, but I wasn’t ready to take that
step. I had never discussed my own religious beliefs with them, and I
didn’t think that I wanted to introduce that topic of conversation
into our friendship. As such, I began to pull off the bookshelf all
the books on Islam that I had acquired in my collegiate and seminary
days. However far my own beliefs were from the traditional position
of the church, and however seldom I actually attended church, I still
identified myself as being a Christian, and so I turned to the works
of Western scholars. That month of December, I read half a dozen or
so books on Islam by Western scholars, including one biography of the
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Further, I began to read two
different English translations of the meaning of the Qur’an. I never
spoke to my Muslim friends about this personal quest of self-
discovery. I never mentioned what types of books I was reading, nor
ever spoke about why I was reading these books. However, occasionally
I would run a very circumscribed question past one of them.
While I never spoke to my Muslim friends about those books, my wife
and I had numerous conversations about what I was reading. By the
last week of December of 1992, I was forced to admit to myself, that I
could find no area of substantial disagreement between my own
religious beliefs and the general tenets of Islam. While I was ready
to acknowledge that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was a prophet of (one
who spoke for or under the inspiration of) God, and while I had
absolutely no difficulty affirming that there was no god besides God/
Allah, glorified and exalted is He, I was still hesitating to make any
decision. I could readily admit to myself that I had far more in
common with Islamic beliefs as I then understood them, than I did with
the traditional Christianity of the organized church. I knew only too
well that I could easily confirm from my seminary training and
education most of what the Qur’an had to say about Christianity, the
Bible, and Jesus, peace be upon him. Nonetheless, I hesitated.
Further, I rationalized my hesitation by maintaining to myself that I
really didn’t know the nitty-gritty details of Islam, and that my
areas of agreement were confined to general concepts. As such, I
continued to read, and then to re-read.
One’s sense of identity, of who one is, is a powerful affirmation of
one’s own position in the cosmos. In my professional practice, I had
occasionally been called upon to treat certain addictive disorders,
ranging from smoking, to alcoholism, to drug abuse. As a clinician, I
knew that the basic physical addiction had to be overcome to create
the initial abstinence. That was the easy part of treatment. As Mark
Twain once said: “Quitting smoking is easy; I’ve done it hundreds of
times”. However, I also knew that the key to maintaining that
abstinence over an extended time period was overcoming the client’s
psychological addiction, which was heavily grounded in the client’s
basic sense of identity, i.e. the client identified to himself that he
was “a smoker”, or that he was “a drinker”, etc. The addictive
behavior had become part and parcel of the client’s basic sense of
identity, of the client’s basic sense of self. Changing this sense of
identity was crucial to the maintenance of the psychotherapeutic
“cure”. This was the difficult part of treatment. Changing one’s
basic sense of identity is a most difficult task. One’s psyche tends
to cling to the old and familiar, which seem more psychologically
comfortable and secure than the new and unfamiliar.
On a professional basis, I had the above knowledge, and used it on a
daily basis. However, ironically enough, I was not yet ready to apply
it to myself, and to the issue of my own hesitation surrounding my
religious identity. For 43 years, my religious identity had been
neatly labeled as “Christian”, however many qualifications I might
have added to that term over the years. Giving up that label of
personal identity was no easy task. It was part and parcel of how I
defined my very being. Given the benefit of hindsight, it is clear
that my hesitation served the purpose of insuring that I could keep my
familiar religious identity of being a Christian, although a Christian
who believed like a Muslim believed.
It was now the very end of December, and my wife and I were filling
out our application forms for U.S. passports, so that a proposed
Middle Eastern journey could become a reality. One of the questions
had to do with religious affiliation. I didn’t even think about it,
and automatically fell back on the old and familiar, as I penned in
“Christian”. It was easy, it was familiar, and it was comfortable.
However, that comfort was momentarily disrupted when my wife asked me
how I had answered the question on religious identity on the
application form. I immediately replied, “Christian”, and chuckled
audibly. Now, one of Freud’s contributions to the understanding of
the human psyche was his realization that laughter is often a release
of psychological tension. However wrong Freud may have been in many
aspects of his theory of psychosexual development, his insights into
laughter were quite on target. I had laughed! What was this
psychological tension that I had need to release through the medium of
laughter?
I then hurriedly went on to offer my wife a brief affirmation that I
was a Christian, not a Muslim. In response to which, she politely
informed me that she was merely asking whether I had written
“Christian”, or “Protestant”, or “Methodist”. On a professional
basis, I knew that a person does not defend himself against an
accusation that hasn’t been made. (If, in the course of a session of
psychotherapy, my client blurted out, “I’m not angry about that”, and
I hadn’t even broached the topic of anger, it was clear that my client
was feeling the need to defend himself against a charge that his own
unconscious was making. In short, he really was angry, but he wasn’t
ready to admit it or to deal with it.) If my wife hadn’t made the
accusation, i.e. “you are a Muslim”, then the accusation had to have
come from my own unconscious, as I was the only other person present.
I was aware of this, but still I hesitated. The religious label that
had been stuck to my sense of identity for 43 years was not going to
come off easily.
About a month had gone by since my wife’s question to me. It was now
late in January of 1993. I had set aside all the books on Islam by
the Western scholars, as I had read them all thoroughly. The two
English translations of the meaning of the Qur’an were back on the
bookshelf, and I was busy reading yet a third English translation of
the meaning of the Qur’an. Maybe in this translation I would find
some sudden justification for…
I was taking my lunch hour from my private practice at a local Arab
restaurant that I had started to frequent. I entered as usual, seated
myself at a small table, and opened my third English translation of
the meaning of the Qur’an to where I had left off in my reading. I
figured I might as well get some reading done over my lunch hour.
Moments later, I became aware that Mahmoud was at my shoulder, and
waiting to take my order. He glanced at what I was reading, but said
nothing about it. My order taken, I returned to the solitude of my
reading.
A few minutes later, Mahmoud’s wife, Iman, an American Muslim, who
wore the Hijab (scarf) and modest dress that I had come to associate
with female Muslims, brought me my order. She commented that I was
reading the Qur’an, and politely asked if I were a Muslim. The word
was out of my mouth before it could be modified by any social
etiquette or politeness: “No!” That single word was said forcefully,
and with more than a hint of irritability. With that, Iman politely
retired from my table.
What was happening to me? I had behaved rudely and somewhat
aggressively. What had this woman done to deserve such behavior from
me? This wasn’t like me. Given my childhood upbringing, I still used
“sir” and “ma’am” when addressing clerks and cashiers who were waiting
on me in stores. I could pretend to ignore my own laughter as a
release of tension, but I couldn’t begin to ignore this sort of
unconscionable behavior from myself. My reading was set aside, and I
mentally stewed over this turn of events throughout my meal. The more
I stewed, the guiltier I felt about my behavior. I knew that when
Iman brought me my check at the end of the meal, I was going to need
to make some amends. If for no other reason, simple politeness
demanded it. Furthermore, I was really quite disturbed about how
resistant I had been to her innocuous question. What was going on in
me that I responded with that much force to such a simple and
straightforward question? Why did that one, simple question lead to
such atypical behavior on my part?
Later, when Iman came with my check, I attempted a round-about apology
by saying: “I’m afraid I was a little abrupt in answering your
question before. If you were asking me whether I believe that there
is only one God, then my answer is yes. If you were asking me whether
I believe that Muhammad was one of the prophets of that one God, then
my answer is yes.” She very nicely and very supportively said:
“That’s okay; it takes some people a little longer than others.”
Perhaps, the readers of this will be kind enough to note the
psychological games I was playing with myself without chuckling too
hard at my mental gymnastics and behavior. I well knew that in my own
way, using my own words, I had just said the Shahadah, the Islamic
testimonial of faith, i.e. “I testify that there is no god but Allah,
and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”. However,
having said that, and having recognized what I said, I could still
cling to my old and familiar label of religious identity. After all,
I hadn’t said I was a Muslim. I was simply a Christian, albeit an
atypical Christian, who was willing to say that there was one God, not
a triune godhead, and who was willing to say that Muhammad was one of
the prophets inspired by that one God. If a Muslim wanted to accept
me as being a Muslim that was his or her business, and his or her
label of religious identity. However, it was not mine. I thought I
had found my way out of my crisis of religious identity. I was a
Christian, who would carefully explain that I agreed with, and was
willing to testify to, the Islamic testimonial of faith. Having made
my tortured explanation, and having parsed the English language to
within an inch of its life, others could hang whatever label on me
they wished. It was their label, and not mine.
It was now March of 1993, and my wife and I were enjoying a five-week
vacation in the Middle East. It was also the Islamic month of
Ramadan, when Muslims fast from day break until sunset. Because we
were so often staying with or being escorted around by family members
of our Muslim friends back in the States, my wife and I had decided
that we also would fast, if for no other reason than common courtesy.
During this time, I had also started to perform the five daily prayers
of Islam with my newfound, Middle Eastern, Muslim friends. After all,
there was nothing in those prayers with which I could disagree.
I was a Christian, or so I said. After all, I had been born into a
Christian family, had been given a Christian upbringing, had attended
church and Sunday school every Sunday as a child, had graduated from a
prestigious seminary, and was an ordained minister in a large
Protestant denomination. However, I was also a Christian: who didn’t
believe in a triune godhead or in the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon
him; who knew quite well how the Bible had been corrupted; who had
said the Islamic testimony of faith in my own carefully parsed words;
who had fasted during Ramadan; who was saying Islamic prayers five
times a day; and who was deeply impressed by the behavioral examples I
had witnessed in the Muslim community, both in America and in the
Middle East. (Time and space do not permit me the luxury of
documenting in detail all of the examples of personal morality and
ethics I encountered in the Middle East.) If asked if I were a
Muslim, I could and did do a five-minute monologue detailing the
above, and basically leaving the question unanswered. I was playing
intellectual word games, and succeeding at them quite nicely.
It was now late in our Middle Eastern trip. An elderly friend who
spoke no English and I were walking down a winding, little road,
somewhere in one of the economically disadvantaged areas of greater
‘Amman, Jordan. As we walked, an elderly man approached us from the
opposite direction, said, “Salam ‘Alaykum”, i.e., “peace be upon you”,
and offered to shake hands. We were the only three people there. I
didn’t speak Arabic, and neither my friend nor the stranger spoke
English. Looking at me, the stranger asked, “Muslim?”
At that precise moment in time, I was fully and completely trapped.
There were no intellectual word games to be played, because I could
only communicate in English, and they could only communicate in
Arabic. There was no translator present to bail me out of this
situation, and to allow me to hide behind my carefully prepared
English monologue. I couldn’t pretend I didn’t understand the
question, because it was all too obvious that I had. My choices were
suddenly, unpredictably, and inexplicably reduced to just two: I
could say “N’am”, i.e., “yes”; or I could say “La”, i.e., “no”. The
choice was mine, and I had no other. I had to choose, and I had to
choose now; it was just that simple. Praise be to Allah, I answered,
“N’am”.
With saying that one word, all the intellectual word games were now
behind me. With the intellectual word games behind me, the
psychological games regarding my religious identity were also behind
me. I wasn’t some strange, atypical Christian. I was a Muslim.
Praise be to Allah, my wife of 33 years also became a Muslim about
that same time.
Not too many months after our return to America from the Middle East,
a neighbor invited us over to his house, saying that he wanted to talk
with us about our conversion to Islam. He was a retired Methodist
minister, with whom I had had several conversations in the past.
Although we had occasionally talked superficially about such issues as
the artificial construction of the Bible from various, earlier,
independent sources, we had never had any in-depth conversation about
religion. I knew only that he appeared to have acquired a solid
seminary education, and that he sang in the local church choir every
Sunday.
My initial reaction was, “Oh, oh, here it comes”. Nonetheless, it is
a Muslim’s duty to be a good neighbor, and it is a Muslim’s duty to be
willing to discuss Islam with others. As such, I accepted the
invitation for the following evening, and spent most of the waking
part of the next 24 hours contemplating how best to approach this
gentleman in his requested topic of conversation. The appointed time
came, and we drove over to our neighbor’s. After a few moments of
small talk, he finally asked why I had decided to become a Muslim. I
had waited for this question, and had my answer carefully prepared.
“As you know with your seminary education, there were a lot of non-
religious considerations which led up to and shaped the decisions of
the Council of Nicaea.” He immediately cut me off with a simple
statement: “You finally couldn’t stomach the polytheism anymore,
could you?” He knew exactly why I was a Muslim, and he didn’t
disagree with my decision! For himself, at his age and at his place
in life, he was electing to be “an atypical Christian”. Allah
willing, he has by now completed his journey from cross to
crescent.
There are sacrifices to be made in being a Muslim in America. For
that matter, there are sacrifices to be made in being a Muslim
anywhere. However, those sacrifices may be more acutely felt in
America, especially among American converts. Some of those sacrifices
are very predictable, and include altered dress and abstinence from
alcohol, pork, and the taking of interest on one’s money. Some of
those sacrifices are less predictable. For example, one Christian
family, with whom we were close friends, informed us that they could
no longer associate with us, as they could not associate with anyone
“who does not take Jesus Christ as his personal savior”. In addition,
quite a few of my professional colleagues altered their manner of
relating to me. Whether it was coincidence or not, my professional
referral base dwindled, and there was almost a 30% drop in income as a
result. Some of these less predictable sacrifices were hard to
accept, although the sacrifices were a small price to pay for what was
received in return.
For those contemplating the acceptance of Islam and the surrendering
of oneself to Allah—glorified and exalted is He, there may well be
sacrifices along the way. Many of these sacrifices are easily
predicted, while others may be rather surprising and unexpected.
There is no denying the existence of these sacrifices, and I don’t
intend to sugar coat that pill for you. Nonetheless, don’t be overly
troubled by these sacrifices. In the final analysis, these sacrifices
are less important than you presently think. Allah willing, you will
find these sacrifices a very cheap coin to pay for the “goods” you are
purchasing.
http://www.usislam.org/converts/jerald.htm
arah
> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about unlimited
> sex.
Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
The Bible recounts that King Solomon, wisest of men and builder of the
First Temple in Jerusalem, had 700 wives and 300 concubines.....
The Bible verses that discuss Lot's sex with his daughters is found in
the book of Genesis:
"The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. Then the
Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord
out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all
the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
"But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
"And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that
God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the
overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.
"Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two
daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he
and his two daughters dwelt in a cave.
"Now the firstborn said to the younger, 'Our father is old, AND THERE
IS NO MAN ON THE EARTH to come in to us as is the custom of all the
earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with
him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.' So they made
their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay
with her father, AND HE DID NOT KNOW WHEN SHE LAY DOWN OR WHEN SHE
AROSE.
"It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger,
'Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine
tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the
lineage of our father.' Then they made their father drink wine that
night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, AND HE DID NOT
KNOW WHEN SHE LAY DOWN OR WHEN SHE AROSE.
"Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father.
" (Genesis 19:23-25, 30-36, NKJV)
duke
>On Oct 3, 2:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about unlimited
>> sex.
>Duke !!!!
>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no spiritual
value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows eternal sex.
• R. L. Measures.
>On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Oct 3, 2:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about
unlimited
>>> sex.
>
>>Duke !!!!
>>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
>
>Nope.
>
>There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no spiritual
>value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
>their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows eternal sex.
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who to the
beholderąs eyes will seem like sprinkled pearls. When you gaze upon that
scene, you will behold a kingdom blissful and glorious."
--- Qur'an 76:19
-- " ... young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
-- Qur'an 52:24
FACE
(• R. L. Measures.), wrote
>In article <dd8k875dqqp5uqbn8...@4ax.com>, duke
><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Oct 3, 2:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about
>unlimited
>>>> sex.
>>
>>>Duke !!!!
>>>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
>>
>>Nope.
>>
>>There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no spiritual
>>value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
>>their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows eternal sex.
>
>• and not just the hetero kind Duke.
>
>"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who to the
>--- Qur'an 76:19
>
> -- " ... young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
>-- Qur'an 52:24
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in
Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and
His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty
(if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the
battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I
would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved
to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and
then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
~~~~
"will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he
survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle
as a martyr). " Now there's a double punch that can't miss with a
testosterone-driven young man.
FACE
• R. L. Measures.
too many dropdead gorgeous brunettes who can't get enough sausage, and for
homo Jjhadis it's a plenitude of cute boy butts.
There can be no doubt whatsoever that Islam is the one true religion
because 23:5 of the holy book allows married guys to hump their
"slave-girls" without committing the sin of adultery in the eyes of
"Allah".
Seon Ferguson
"arah" wrote in message
news:406bc44f-a2f8-402b...@d4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
It's funny watching two religious people debate which one is worse, I think
they are both just as bad. Muhammad was a paedophile but yep Lot did
sacrifice his daughters to that mob. If I was forced to make a choice from
Jesus or Jew murdering world leader threatening Muhammad though I'd choose
Jesus.
Seon Ferguson
"arah" wrote in message
news:3226201d-14e4-4457...@p11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 3, 4:52 am, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As usual, arah doesn't answer the actual question.
>Let me answer the question
factual basis?"
duke
> If I was forced to make a choice from
>Jesus or Jew murdering world leader threatening Muhammad though I'd choose
>Jesus.
>
Seon Ferguson
"duke" wrote in message news:fmho87d5af3qmuv5n...@4ax.com...
In this case, I agree with Arah. Prophets of the father have had sexual sins
as well. It's not just Muhammad. In fact, Jesus is the only one in the Bible
without sin.
duke
beliefs given by Jesus.
>In this case, I agree with Arah. Prophets of the father have had sexual sins
>as well. It's not just Muhammad. In fact, Jesus is the only one in the Bible
>without sin.
• R. L. Measures.
providing an essential service in Jerusalem's Temple is not a sin ?
FACE
<seo...@gmail.com>, wrote
duke
>In article <dd8k875dqqp5uqbn8...@4ax.com>, duke
><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Oct 3, 2:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about
>unlimited
>>>> sex.
>>
>>>Duke !!!!
>>>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
>>
>>Nope.
>>
>>There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no spiritual
>>value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
>>their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows eternal sex.
>
>• and not just the hetero kind Duke.
duke
• R. L. Measures.
>On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:22:08 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>
>>In article <dd8k875dqqp5uqbn8...@4ax.com>, duke
>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Oct 3, 2:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about
>>unlimited
>>>>> sex.
>>>
>>>>Duke !!!!
>>>>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
>>>
>>>Nope.
>>>
>>>There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no spiritual
>>>value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
>>>their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows
eternal sex.
>>
>>• and not just the hetero kind Duke.
>
>sex = sex.
>
• R. L. Measures.
>They were trespassing.
• they were there to exchange Greek, Roman, and other currencies for
Israeli Sheckles because the head rabbi was some kind of a schmuck.
>
Jesus said that only the heavenly father is perfect.
duke
The Romans couldn't care less.
>>They were trespassing.
>• they were there to exchange Greek, Roman, and other currencies for
>Israeli Sheckles because the head rabbi was some kind of a schmuck.
If they had done so outside, a good story line would never have presented
itself.
>Jesus said that only the heavenly father is perfect.
Amen.
• R. L. Measures.
>>>They were trespassing.
>
>>• they were there to exchange Greek, Roman, and other currencies for
>>Israeli Sheckles because the head rabbi was some kind of a schmuck.
>
>If they had done so outside, a good story line would never have presented
>itself.
>>Jesus said that only the heavenly father is perfect.
>
>Amen.
>
Seon Ferguson
"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message news:rL-061011...@10.0.1.4...
Yes, but so is sacrificing your virgin daughters to the mob.
Seon Ferguson
"duke" wrote in message news:ca4r871m2d1f3194p...@4ax.com...
But God the father in the trinity still thought it was a good thing Lot
sacrificed his daughters.
Seon Ferguson
"FACE" wrote in message news:ccjr87t0ljtuvmbom...@4ax.com...
The God character thought he was worthy enough to be saved, even after he
allowed his daughters to be raped by the mob. But we should point out to
Arah that God is also Allah. Islam believes in the OT stories doesn't it?
Firnando
Why do Muslims think that Islam is true. Is there any factual basis?
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
Praise be to Allah.
This is a reasonable enough question for one who has not entered Islam,
but one who believes in and practices this religion already knows the
blessings which are his because of this religion. There are many reasons
for this, which include the following:
(1) The Muslim worships One God, Who has no partner, and Who has the
most beautiful names and the highest attributes. Thus the Muslim�s focus
and aim is concentrated, focused on His Lord and Creator; he puts his
trust in Him and asks Him for help, patience and support; he believes
that Allaah is able to do all things, and has no need of a wife or son.
Allaah created the heavens and earth; He is the One Who gives life and
death; He is the Creator and Sustainer from Whom the slave seeks
provision. He is the All-Hearing Who responds to the supplication of His
slave, and from Whom the slave hopes for a response. He is the
All-Merciful and All-Forgiving, to Whom the slave turns in repentance
when he has committed a sin or fallen short in his worship of Allaah. He
is the Omniscient and All-Seeing, who knows all intentions and what is
hidden in people�s hearts. The slave feels ashamed to commit a sin by
doing wrong to himself or to others, because his Lord is watching over
him and sees all that he does. He knows that Allaah is All-Wise, the
Seer of the Unseen, so he trusts that what Allaah decrees for him is
good; he knows that Allaah will never be unjust to him, and that
everything that Allaah decrees for him is good, even if he does not
understand the wisdom behind it.
(2) The effects of Islaamic worship on the soul of the Muslim include
the following:
Prayer keeps the slave in contact with his Lord; if he enters it in a
spirit of humiliation and concentration, he will feel tranquil and
secure, because he is seeking a "powerful support," which is Allaah, may
He be glorified and exalted. For this reason, the Prophet of Islaam,
Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to say: "Let
us find relaxation and joy in prayer." If something distressed him, he
would hasten to pray. Everyone who finds himself faced with disaster and
tries prayer finds strength, patience and consolation, because he is
reciting the words of his Lord, which cannot be compared to the effect
of the words of a created being. If the words of some psychologists can
offer a little comfort, what do you think of the words of the One Who
created the psychologist? Now let us look at zakaat, which is one of the
pillars of Islaam. Zakaat purifies the soul from stinginess and
miserliness, and accustoms people to being generous and helping the poor
and needy. It will bring a great reward on the Day of Resurrection, just
like other forms of worship. It is not burdensome, like man-made taxes;
it is only 25 in every thousand, which the sincere Muslim pays willingly
and does not try to evade or wait until someone chases him for it.
Fasting involves refraining from food and sex. It is a form of worship,
and a way in which one can feel the hunger of those who are deprived. It
is also a reminder of the blessings of the Creator, and it brings
rewards beyond measure. Hajj is the Pilgrimage to the sacred House of
Allaah, which was built by Ibraaheem (Abraham, upon whom be peace). By
performing Hajj one is obeying the command of Allaah and the call to
come and meet Muslims from all over the world.
(3) Islaam commands all kinds of good and forbids all kinds of evil. It
encourages good manners and proper treatment of others. It enjoins good
characteristics such as truthfulness, patience, deliberation, kindness,
humility, modesty, keeping promises, dignity, mercy, justice, courage,
patience, friendliness, contentment, chastity, good treatment,
tolerance, trustworthiness, gratitude for favours, and self-control in
times of anger. Islaam commands the Muslim to fulfil his duty towards
his parents and to uphold family ties, to help the needy, to treat
neighbours well, to protect and safeguard the wealth of the orphan, to
be gentle with the young and show respect to the old, to be kind to
servants and animals, to remove harmful things from the road, to speak
kind words, to forgive at the time when one has the opportunity to take
revenge, to be sincere towards one�s fellow-Muslims, to meet the needs
of the Muslims, to give the debtor time to repay his debt, to prefer
others over oneself, to console others, to greet people with a smiling
face, to visit the sick, to support the one who is oppressed, to give
gifts to friends, to honour his guest, to treat his wife kindly and
spend on her and her children, to spread the greeting of peace (salaam)
and to seek permission before entering another person�s house, lest one
see something private that the other person does not want one to see.
Some non-Muslims may do these things out of politeness or good manners,
but they are not seeking reward from Allaah or salvation of the Day of
Judgment.
If we look at what Islam has prohibited, we will find that it is in the
interests of both the individual and society as a whole. All these
prohibitions serve to safeguard the relationship between the slave and
his Lord, and the relationship of the individual with himself and with
his fellow-man. The following examples demonstrate this: Islam forbids
the association of anything in worship with Allaah and the worship of
anything other than Allaah, because this spells doom and misery. Islaam
also forbids visiting or believing soothsayers and fortune-tellers;
magic or witchcraft that may cause a rift between two people or bring
them together; belief in the influence of the stars on events and
people�s lives; cursing time, because Allaah is directing its affairs;
and superstition, because this is pessimism.
Islam forbids cancelling out good deeds by showing off, boasting or
reminding others of one�s favours; bowing or prostrating to anything
other than Allaah; sitting with hypocrites or immoral people for the
purposes of enjoying their company or keeping them company; and invoking
the curse or wrath of Allaah on one another or damning one another to Hell.
Islaam forbids urinating into stagnant water; defecating on the side of
the road or in places where people seek shade or where they draw water;
from facing the qiblah (direction of prayer) or turning one�s back
towards it when passing water or stools; holding one�s penis in one�s
right hand when passing water; giving the greeting of salaam (peace) to
one who is answering the call of nature; and putting one�s hand into any
vessel before washing it, when one has just woken up.
Islaam forbids the offering of any nafl (supererogatory) prayers when
the sun is rising, when it is at its zenith, and when it is setting,
because it rises and sets between the horns of Shaytaan (Satan); praying
when there is food prepared that a person desires; praying when one
urgently needs to pass water, stools or wind, because that will distract
a person from concentrating properly on his prayer.
Islam forbids the Muslim to raise his voice in prayer, lest it disturb
other believers; to continue offering supererogatory prayers at night
when one feels drowsy - such a person should sleep then get up; to stay
up all night in prayer, especially one night after another; and to stop
praying when there is doubt as to the validity of one�s wudoo� - unless
one hears a sound or smells an odour.
Islaam forbids buying, selling and making "lost and found" announcements
in the mosque - because it is the place of worship and remembrance of
Allaah, where worldly affairs have no place.
Islam forbids haste in walking when the iqaamah (call immediately
preceding congregational prayer) is given, and prescribes walking in a
calm and dignified manner. It is also forbidden to boast about the cost
of building a mosque; to decorate a mosque with red or yellow paint or
adornments which will distract the worshippers; to fast day after day
without a break; and for a woman to observe a supererogatory fast when
her husband is present without his permission.
Islaam forbids building over graves, making them high, sitting on them,
walking between them wearing shoes, putting lights over them or writing
on them. It is forbidden to disinter the dead or to take graves as
places of worship. Islam forbids wailing, tearing one�s clothes or
leaving one�s hair unkempt when a person dies. Eulogizing the dead in
the manner of the times of Ignorance (Jaahiliyyah) is also forbidden,
although there is nothing wrong with informing others that a person has
died.
Islaam forbids the consumption of riba (interest); all kinds of selling
which involve ignorance (of the product), misleading and cheating;
selling blood, wine, pork, idols and everything that Allaah has
forbidden - their price, whether bought or sold - is haraam; najash,
which is offering a price for something one has no intention of buying,
as happens in many auctions; concealing a product�s faults at the time
of selling; selling something which one does not own or before it comes
into one�s possession; undercutting, outbidding or out bargaining
another; selling produce before it is clear that it is in good condition
and free of blemish; cheating in weights and measures; and hoarding. A
partner who has shares in a plot of land or a date palm tree is
forbidden to sell his share without consulting his partners. It is
forbidden to consume the wealth of orphans unjustly; to bet or gamble;
to take anything by force; to accept or offer bribes; to steal people�s
wealth or to consume it unjustly; to take something for the purpose of
destroying it; to undermine the value of people�s possessions; to keep
lost property which one has found, or to keep quiet about it and not
announce it, for it belongs to the one who recognizes it; to cheat in
any way; to ask for a loan with no intention of repaying it; to take
anything of the wealth of a fellow-Muslim, unless it is given freely,
because what is taken because of another person�s shyness is haraam; and
to accept a gift because of intercession.
Celibacy and castration are forbidden, as is marrying two sisters, or a
woman and her aunt (paternal or maternal), whether he marries the aunt
after marrying her niece or vice versa, for fear of breaking the ties of
kinship. It is forbidden to make deals in marriage, such as saying "Let
me marry your daughter and I will give you my daughter or sister in
marriage." Such reciprocal deals are a form of oppression and injustice,
and haraam. Islaam forbids mut�ah (temporary marriage), which is a
marriage contract for a period of time agreed by the two parties, at the
end of which the marriage expires. Islaam forbids intercourse with a
menstruating woman, until she has purified herself (by taking a bath
after her period ends), and also forbids anal intercourse. A man is
forbidden to propose marriage to a woman when another man has already
proposed to her, unless the other man withdraws his proposal or gives
him permission. It is forbidden to marry a previously-married woman
without consulting her, or a virgin without seeking her permission. It
is forbidden to wish (a newly married couple) "Bi�l-rafaa� wa�l-baneen
(a joyful life and many sons)," because this is the greeting of the
people of Jaahiliyyah, who hated daughters. The divorced woman is
forbidden to conceal what Allaah has created in her womb (if she is
pregnant). A husband and wife are forbidden to speak (to others) about
the intimacies of married life. It is forbidden to turn a woman against
her husband or to take divorce lightly. It is forbidden for a woman to
ask for another�s divorce, such as asking a man to divorce a woman so
that she can marry him. A wife is forbidden to spend her husband�s money
without his permission, or to keep away from his bed without good
reason, because the angels will curse her if she does that. A man is
forbidden to marry his father�s wife, or to have intercourse with a
woman who is pregnant from another man. It is forbidden for a man to
practise �azl (coitus interruptus) with his free wife without her
permission. It is forbidden for a man to return home from a journey late
at night and startle his family, unless he has previously notified them
when he will arrive home. A man is forbidden to take anything of his
wife�s mahr (dowry) without her consent, or to keep annoying his wife so
that she will give up her wealth.
Islaam forbids women to make a wanton display of themselves (tabarruj).
It also forbids extreme forms of female circumcision. Women are
forbidden to admit anyone into their husband�s home without his
permission; his general permission is acceptable so long as they stay
within the limits of sharee�ah. It is forbidden to separate a mother and
child (in case of divorce); to let one�s womenfolk behave foolishly (in
an immoral fashion) and not say anything; to let one�s gaze wander
everywhere; and to follow an accidental glance with an intentional glance.
Islaam forbids the eating of dead meat, regardless of whether it died by
drowning, strangulation, shock or falling from a high place; eating
blood, pork and anything slaughtered in a name other than that of Allaah
or for idols; eating the flesh or drinking the milk of beasts that feed
on filth and waste matter; eating the flesh of every carnivorous beast
that has fangs and every bird that has talons; eating the meat of
domesticated donkeys; killing animals by keeping them and throwing
stones at them until they die, or detaining them without food until they
die; slaughtering with teeth or nails; slaughtering one animal (for
food) in front of another; or sharpening the knife in front of the
animal to be slaughtered.
In the area of clothing and adornment, men are forbidden the
extravagance of wearing gold. Muslim are forbidden to be naked or to
expose their thighs; to leave their clothes long (below the ankles) and
trail them on the ground for the purpose of showing off; and to wear
clothes that will attract attention.
It is forbidden to bear false witness; to make false accusations against
a chaste believing woman; to accuse someone who is innocent; to utter
lies; to slander and backbite; to call people by offensive nicknames; to
spread gossip and malicious slander; to make fun of the Muslims; to
boast about one�s status; to shed doubts on a person�s lineage; to utter
slander, insults and obscenities; to speak in an indecent or rude
manner; or to utter evil in public, except by one who has been wronged.
Islaam forbids telling lies; one of the worst kinds of lie is to lie
about dreams, like fabricating dreams and visions in order to prove
one�s virtue, or make some material gains, or to frighten an enemy.
Muslims are forbidden to praise themselves, or to talk in a secret way:
two may not converse secretly to the exclusion of a third, because this
is offensive. It is forbidden to curse a believer or someone who does
not deserve to be cursed.
Islaam forbids speaking ill of the dead; praying for death; wishing for
death because of some suffering that one is passing through; praying
against one�s self, one�s children, one�s servants or one�s wealth.
Muslims are told not to eat the food that is directly in front of others
or to eat from the centre of the dish or platter; rather they should eat
from what is directly in front of them or thereabouts, because the
barakah (blessing) comes in the middle of the food. It is forbidden to
drink from a broken edge of a vessel, because this could cause harm; or
to drink from the mouth of a vessel; or to breathe into it. It is
forbidden to eat while lying on one�s stomach; to sit at a table where
wine is being drunk; to leave a fire burning in one�s house when one
sleeps; to sleep with Ghamr in one�s hand, like an offensive smell or
the remainder of food (grease); to sleep on one�s stomach; or to talk
about or try to interpret bad dreams, because these are tricks of the
Shaytaan.
It is forbidden to kill another person except in cases where it is right
to do so; to kill one�s children for fear of poverty; to commit suicide;
to commit fornication, adultery or sodomy (homosexuality); to drink
wine, or even to prepare it, carry it from one place to another, or sell
it. Muslims are forbidden to please people by angering Allaah; to offend
their parents or even to say "Uff" (the slightest word of contempt) to
them; to claim that a child belongs to anyone but his real father; to
torture by means of fire; to burn anyone, alive or dead, with fire; to
mutilate the bodies of the slain; to help anyone commit falsehood; or to
cooperate in wrongdoing and sin.
It is forbidden to obey any person by disobeying Allaah; to swear
falsely; to swear a disastrous oath; to eavesdrop on people without
their permission; to invade people�s privacy or look at their private
parts; to claim something that does not belong to one or that one did
not do, for the purpose of showing off; to look into someone�s else�s
house without permission; to be extravagant; to swear an oath to do
something wrong; to spy on others or be suspicious about righteous men
and women; to envy, hate or shun one another; to persist in falsehood;
to be arrogant or feel superior; to be filled with self-admiration; to
be pleased with one�s arrogance. Islam forbids taking back one�s
charity, even if one pays to get it back; employing someone to do a job
without paying him his wages; being unfair in giving gifts to one�s
children; bequeathing everything in one�s will and leaving one�s heirs
poor - in such a case the will should not be executed; writing a will
that concerns more than one third of one�s legacy; being a bad
neighbour; or changing a will to the detriment of one or some of one�s
heirs. A Muslim is forbidden to forsake or shun his brother for more
than three days, except for a reason sanctioned by sharee�ah; to hold
small stones between two fingers and throw them because this could cause
injury to eyes or teeth; to include his heirs in a will, because Allaah
has already given heirs their rights of inheritance; to disturb his
neighbour; to point a weapon at his Muslim brother; to hand someone an
unsheathed sword, lest it harm him; to come (walk) between two people
except with their permission; to return a gift, unless there is some
shar�i objection to it; to be extravagant; to give money to foolish
people; to wish to be like someone to whom Allaah has given more of
something; to cancel out his charity by giving offensive reminders of
his giving; to wilfully conceal testimony; or to oppress orphans or
scold one who asks for help or money. It is forbidden to treat with evil
medicines, because Allaah would not create a cure for this ummah which
includes something that He has forbidden. It is forbidden to kill women
and children in warfare; to boast to one another; or to break promises.
Islaam forbids betraying a trust; asking for charity that one does not
need; alarming a Muslim brother or taking away his possessions, whether
jokingly or seriously; changing one�s mind after giving a gift, except
in the case of a gift from a father to his child; practicing medicine
without experience; or killing ants, bees and hoopoe birds. A man is
forbidden to look at the �awrah (private parts) of another man, and a
woman is forbidden to look at the �awrah of another woman. It is
forbidden to sit between two people without their permission; or to
greet only those whom one knows, because the greeting is to be given to
those whom you know and those whom you do not know. A Muslim is
forbidden to let an oath come between him and good deeds; he should do
what is good and make expiation for the oath. It is forbidden to judge
between two disputing parties when one is angry, or to judge in favour
of one party without hearing what the other has to say. It is forbidden
for a man to walk through the market-place carrying something - like a
sharp weapon - that could harm the Muslims, unless it is properly
covered. A Muslim is forbidden to make another person get up, so that he
can take his place.
There are more commands and prohibitions which came for the benefit and
happiness of individuals and mankind as a whole. Have you ever seen any
other religion that can compare to this religion?
Read this response again, then ask yourself: is it not a great pity that
I am not one of them? Allaah says in the Qur�aan (interpretation of the
meaning): "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never
be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."
[Aal �Imraan 3:85]
Finally, I hope that everyone who reads this will be guided to the
correct way and to follow the truth. May Allaah protect you and us from
all evil.
duke
wrote:
>There are many religions.
>Why do Muslims think that Islam is true. Is there any factual basis?
>Islam Q&A
>Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
>
>Praise be to Allah.
>
>This is a reasonable enough question for one who has not entered Islam,
>but one who believes in and practices this religion already knows the
>blessings which are his because of this religion. There are many reasons
>for this, which include the following:
Actually, it's becoming clear that there is no spiritual value to Islam. It is
now being seen that mohammed had 3 things in mind:
1. Swoon over the people to get his way.
2. Build an army.
3. Unlimited sex.
duke
Lot did.........what????
duke
>>>>>** Asssault and battery of duly licensed pushcart vendors who are
>>>>>providing an essential service in Jerusalem's Temple is not a sin ?
>>>>
>>>>They weren't licensed.
>>>� If they were not duly licensed the Romans would have arrested them.
>>The Romans couldn't care less.
>� when in doubt, guess.
The vendors had been at it for about 1500 years when Jesus threw them out for
not having permission to trespass..
>>>>They were trespassing.
>>>� they were there to exchange Greek, Roman, and other currencies for
>>>Israeli Sheckles because the head rabbi was some kind of a schmuck.
>>If they had done so outside, a good story line would never have presented
>>itself.
>� I agree that the story could have been fabricated.
Or not.
duke
>
>
>"� R. L. Measures." wrote in message news:rL-061011...@10.0.1.4...
Seon still tiptoeing down that crazy story?
duke
Lot knew that a bunch of queers outside his door didn't want his daughters.
FACE
> even after he
>allowed his daughters to be raped by the mob.
>But we should point out to
>Arah that God is also Allah.
>Islam believes in the OT stories doesn't it?
confused about it all.
FACE
FACE
<duckg...@cox.net>, wrote
>>But God the father in the trinity still thought it was a good thing Lot
>>sacrificed his daughters.
>
>Lot did.........what????
� R. L. Measures.
Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
� That mob would never have laid a finger on the girls.
Seon Ferguson
"FACE" wrote in message news:bvq0975da2ou38lui...@4ax.com...
Abraham wasn't even in the myth of Sodum.
> even after he
>allowed his daughters to be raped by the mob.
>They weren't.
I read the myth again, but he was willing to sacrifice his virgin daughters.
>But we should point out to
>Arah that God is also Allah.
>No, he isn't, assuming you meant Yahweh is "God".
No I meant Arah believes in the same myths the Jews do.
>Islam believes in the OT stories doesn't it?
>Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
>confused about it all.
Yeah he says Jews and Christians are religions of the book one day and calls
Jews apes the next.
Seon Ferguson
"duke" wrote in message news:voj0979q6c18jbodr...@4ax.com...
Oh well. it;s just a myth anyway like all the stories in the OT.
Seon Ferguson
"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message news:rL-081011...@10.0.1.4...
In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
So what would the point of offering his daughters be?
Seon Ferguson
"FACE" wrote in message news:r0s09711qohev3i4q...@4ax.com...
If you want silly try reading the Bible or Koran.
Seon Ferguson
"duke" wrote in message news:cij097p7ksmi7l7d2...@4ax.com...
That's what it is all right, a story.
arah
> >Islam believes in the OT stories doesn't it?
> >Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
> >confused about it all.
>
> Yeah he says Jews and Christians are religions of the book one day and calls
Allah Almighty transformed the rebellious Israelites into apes and
swines. The Bible seems to clearly support this:
The sections of this article are:
1- The Noble Quran's Divine Claim.
2- The Bible had been altered to suite the Jews' purpose.
3- Conclusion.
1- The Noble Quran's Divine Claim:
From http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_quran_differences.htm:
Because of their constant defiance and blasphemy of GOD Almighty's
Divine and Holy Words, some Jews were transformed into swines and apes
during Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) times:
"Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as
judged) by the treatment it received from God? those who incurred the
curse of God and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into
apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times)
worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!" (The Noble
Quran, 5:60)"
Swines and Apes in the Bible:
While the Bible doesn't explicitly contain this about the Jews, but it
does contain OVERWHELMING evidence about the Jews' defiance and
disobedience of GOD Almighty's Divine Words, and GOD Almighty's
Promise to destroy them and bring plague upon them. Also, Numbers
16:30 below seems to agree with the Noble Quran's Divine Claims:
Numbers 14
10 But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of
the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites.
11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with
contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all
the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will
make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."
Numbers 14
22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I
performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested
me ten times-
23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their
forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see
it.
24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me
wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his
descendants will inherit it.
Numbers 16
29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually
happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me.
30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth
opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to
them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that
these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split
apart
Note: I believe this is where they were transformed into apes and
swines. The earth probably never opened up and swallowed them. Or
may be it did after they were shown to everyone. Only Allah Almighty
Knows about the exact timing.
Very Important Point regarding the Swines and Apes conversion:
Since the entire Bible is a rewrite and not the original Holy Word of
GOD Almighty as clearly proven by the bible's own theologians' quotes
and detailed analysis on every "book" and "gospel", it is quite
possible that the writers of the Bible got the narration about the
earth opening up and swallowing them wrong. It was rather when they
turned into apes and swines and literally disappeared completely from
the rest of the Israelites, people thought that the earth opened up
and swallowed them.
Even today people use the public saying "Did the earth open up and
swallow him?" when referring to someone who can't be found!
Exodus 32
1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the
mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who
will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of
Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."
Exodus 32
7 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you
brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt.
8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and
have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have
bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your
gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a
stiff-necked people.
Exodus 34
8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I
have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with
us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and
our sin, and take us as your inheritance."
Deuteronomy 31
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the
covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the
covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness
against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have
been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you,
how much more will you rebel after I die!
28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your
officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call
heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly
corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to
come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the
sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have
made."
Numbers 16
12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they
said, "We will not come!
13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing
with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to
lord it over us?
14 Moreover, you haven't brought us into a land flowing with milk and
honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you
gouge out the eyes of these men? No, we will not come!"
Numbers 14
10 But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of
the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites.
11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with
contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all
the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will
make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."
Again, even the Bible gives ample evidence of their blasphemy to GOD
Almighty. You can read in full details the following Biblical books:
Exodus 32 - They built their golden calf god using their jewelry.
Exodus 34 - The Jews are hard-headed people who don't listen.
Deuteronomy 31 - Moses is concerned about the Jews' future after his
death because they are constantly rebellious against the Holy Words
and Law of GOD Almighty.
2- The Bible had been altered to suite the Jews' purpose:
Let us look at Jeremiah's claim about the Bible being altered to fit
their purpose and cover up their shame:
How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'?
But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
As we clearly see, the Jews had altered the Law of the LORD (i.e., the
Revelations sent to Moses) and turned it into a "lie". Let us
further examine the history of the Bible and read the quotes of many
of the Bible's theologians:
From www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm:
The original manuscripts had been lost!
"Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal
errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the
capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying
page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure
that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book
of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error.
Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception
no longer exist."
"Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of
years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession
today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore
dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which
were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those
who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors.
One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do
with numbers."
"Most Christians will affirm that the Bible is our rule of faith and
practice. It is a little self contradictory to stand in the pulpit and
say the word of God is inspired, when in his heart the pastor knows he
is not referring to any book here on this earth that people can hold
in their hands and believe. He really should say what he believes -
that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have
it, so the best we can do is hope we have a close approximation of
what God probably meant to tell us."
"It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals
were inspired, when he has never seen them, they never were together
in one single book and they no longer exist anyway. How does he know
they were inspired? He accepts this by faith. Yet he seems to lack the
faith to actually believe that God could do exactly what He said He
would do with His words. God said He would preserve them and that
heaven and earth would pass away but His words would not pass away."
From www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm:
Irrefutable contradictions, and proofs that the original authors of
today's Bible are UNKNOWN!
Muslims and Christians both agree that the Noble Quran does not agree
with today's Bible in everything. Just because the Bible might
disagree on something in the Noble Quran, it doesn't at all negate the
claim of the Noble Quran or make it false. There is a certain flow of
logic that the Noble Quran presents which we the Muslims believe that
it is the truth.
The Bible's contents today were not written by their original
authors. For example, we read from the book of Matthew so many verses
such as this one:
"...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named
Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto
HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed
HIM (Jesus). (Matthew 9:9)"
Did "Matthew" write this about himself? Why then didn't Matthew write
for example: "he (Jesus) saw ME, and my name is Matthew. I was sitting
at the receipt of custom…" etc.
Similarly, we read in the books of Moses things such as "And the LORD
said to Moses...", or "Moses went to that place....", etc... We also
read in the Old Testament about Moses' burial. Now if Moses alone
supposedly wrote his books, then how is it possible for him to write
about his own burial when he is already dead??!!
Such evidence can be found in many places throughout the Old Testament
and the New Testament. The so called "Original letters/Gospels" that
were written in Greek and Hebrew, were written by third party people!
Consider the following few examples that consist of historical
contradictions in the Bible:
II Samuel 10:18 talks about David slew the men of 700 chariots of the
Syrians and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
I Chronicles 1:18 says that David slew the men of 7000 chariots and
40,000 footmen
I Chronicles 9:25 says that Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and
chariots.
I Kings 4:26 says that he had 40,000 stalls for horses
Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons.
II Samuel 24:13 So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him,
shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou
flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?
I Chronicles 21:11 SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith
the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to
be destryed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies
overtaketh thee;
How did Judas die?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed,
and went out and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:5)
"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his
bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
2 Samuel 6:23 Therefore MICHAL the daughter of Saul had no child unto
the day of her death.
2 Samuel 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of
Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five
sons of MICHAL the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel
the son of Barzillai the Meholathite.
2 Kings 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign,
and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was
Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2 Chronicles 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to
reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he
did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.
26th year of the reign of Asa I Kings 16:6-8
36th year of the reign of Asa I 2 Chronicles 16:1
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
22 in 2 Kings 8:26
42 in 2 Chronicle 22:2
Who was Josiah's successor?
Jehoahaz - 2 Chronicle 36:1
Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11
Also, your original scriptures are all doubtful according to the
Bible's own theologians and historians. It's quite hilarious that
even the Bible itself admits that it has been tampered with and
corrupted by man's garbage:
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the
LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it
falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say,
'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the
false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible,
Jeremiah 8:8)"
And regarding who wrote the books and gospels of the Bible, as I
quoted above, here is a sample of what the NIV Bible's theologians and
historians wrote:
"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel
of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display
certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content
that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8,
or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes,
page 1528)"
"Although the author does not name himself, evidence outside the
Scriptures and inferences from the book itself lead to the conclusion
that the author was Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1643)"
"The writer of this letter does not identify himself, but he was
obviously well known to the original recipients. (From the NIV Bible
Commentary, page 1856)"
"The letter is difficult to date with precision....(From the NIV Bible
Commentary, page 1905)"
"It seems safe to conclude that the book, at least in its early form,
dates from the beginning of the monarchy. Some think that Samuel may
have had a hand in shaping or compiling the materials of the book, but
in fact we are unsure who the final author or editor was. (From the
NIV Bible Commentary, page 286)"
"Although, according to tradition, Samuel wrote the book, authorship
is actually uncertain. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322)"
"The date of the composition is also unknown, but it was undoubtedly
during the monarchy. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322)"
"The author is unknown. Jewish tradition points to Samuel, but it is
unlikely that he is the author because the mention of David (4:17,22)
implies a later date. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 360)"
"Who the author was cannot be known with certainty since the book
itself gives no indication of his identity. (From the NIV Bible
Commentary, page 368)"
"There is little conclusive evidence as to the identity of the author
of 1,2 Kings. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459)"
"Whoever the author was, it is clear that he was familiar with the
book of Deuteronomy. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459)"
"According to ancient Jewish tradition, Ezra wrote Chronicles, Ezra
and Nehemiah (see Introduction to Ezra: Literary Form and Authorship),
but this cannot be established with certainty. (From the NIV Bible
Commentary, page 569)"
"Although we do not know who wrote the book of Esther, from internal
evidence it is possible to make some inferences about the author and
the date of composition. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 707)"
"The unknown author probably had access to oral and/or written
sources....(From the NIV Bible commentary, page 722)"
"Regarding authorship, opinions are even more divided....(From the NIV
Bible Commentary, page 773)"
etc...
How do you respond to this?
Please visit: Contradictions and proofs of Historical Corruptions in
the Bible, and see exactly what I mean, instead of acting like a total
fool and saying things that even the Bible refutes in it!
It is quite obvious that Christians today believe in third party
authors' words as the words of GOD. This is a very serious corruption
in the Bible that must be taken into deep consideration by the Bible's
followers. Please visit "Is the Bible the true word of GOD?" to see a
full and complete paper about the logical corruptions in the Bible,
along with many Christian famous priests and ministers opinions that
agree with the Bible's corruption. I have their personal quotes in
that site.
Also, as to the parts of the Bible that Muslims believe are closest to
the Truth, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm
After that, please visit: Prophet Muhammad was foretold in many
places in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments.
It is quite obvious that Christians today believe in third party
authors' words as the words of GOD. This is a very serious corruption
in the Bible that must be taken into deep consideration by the Bible's
followers. Please visit "Is the Bible the true word of GOD?" to see a
full and complete paper about the logical corruptions in the Bible,
along with many Christian famous priests and ministers opinions that
agree with the Bible's corruption. I have their personal quotes in
that site.
You can not disprove Islam by presenting stories from the Bible that
are not narrated the same from the Noble Quran. We Muslims believe
that there are many disagreements in today's Bible, and that the Noble
Quran should be the Bible that the Jews and the Christians should
follow.
Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran in Noble Verse 11:110 "We
(Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences Arose
therein: had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy
Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them: but they Are in
suspicious doubt Concerning it."
"Previous revelations have been corrupted and deprived of their
spiritual value by their followers' vain controversies and disputes.
It was possible to settle such disputes under the flag, as it were, or
the old Revelations, but Allah's Plan was to revive and rejuvenate His
Message through Islam, amongst a newer and younger people, unhampered
by the burden of age-old prejudices.
There is always in human affairs the conflict between the old and the
new, the worn out system of our ancestors, and the fresh living spring
of Allah's inspiration fitting in with new times and new
surroundings. The advocates of the former look upon this latter not
only with intellectual doubt but with moral suspicion, as did the
People of the Book (Jews and Christians) upon Islam, with its fresh
outlook and vigorous realistic way of looking at things." [2]
3- Conclusion:
There is no doubt that the Bible had been badly corrupt. According to
the Bible's own theologians, the original manuscripts had been lost.
The authors of today's books and gospels are unknown. The Bible even
admits that it had been altered to suit the Jews' purpose, and they
turned it into a lie, as clearly mentioned in Jeremiah 8:8 above.
There is no doubt that the transformation of many of them into swines
and apes by Allah Almighty had been deliberately erased by them!
Numbers 14:10-12 seem to greatly support the Noble Quran's Divine
Claims, when Allah Almighty promised to bring great destruction and
plague upon the disobedient Jews.
Seon Ferguson
"arah" wrote in message
news:c8819743-9ae5-449d...@i33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 9, 2:08 am, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Islam believes in the OT stories doesn't it?
> >Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
> >confused about it all.
>
> Yeah he says Jews and Christians are religions of the book one day and
> calls
> Jews apes the next.- Hide quoted text -
>Allah Almighty transformed the rebellious Israelites into apes and
>swines. The Bible seems to clearly support this:
Arah admits to the Korans anti Semitism, incredible.
arah
> >In this case, I agree with Arah. Prophets of the father have had sexual sins
> >as well. It's not just Muhammad. In fact, Jesus is the only one in the Bible
> >without sin.
The story of Lot in the bible was corrupted!!!!
Prophets of God, according to the Muslim faith, are people selected by
God Himself to deliver His message to mankind.
The Muslim belief that Prophets are sinless primarily relates to the
fact that the Prophets of God delivered His message in its purest
form. They did not add anything to it, on their own, and neither did
they hold anything back from it. The Qur'an says that because Muhammad
(pbuh) is a true Prophet of God, therefore, if this true Prophet
falsely ascribes something to God, he shall then be punished like no
other individual. The Qur'an says:
Had he invented lies concerning Us, We would have seized him by the
right hand and severed his heart's vein; and no one from amongst you
could have protected him (from Us). (Al-Haaqqah 69: 44 - 47)
The Qur'an also tells us that to supervise the unadulterated
deliverance of the message, the prophets are closely observed by God.
It says:
As for the messengers whom He has chosen, He guards them from the
front and from behind to make sure that they have delivered the
messages of their Lord. (Al-Jinn 72: 27 - 28)
Besides this, Muslims also believe that because God Himself, on the
basis of His all encompassing knowledge, selected these prophets for
delivering His message and to become a model for their followers,
therefore these prophets must have been the best of mankind living in
their particular times and societies. But this does not mean that the
prophets do not commit any mistakes. Mistake, as we know is not
synonymous with sin. These prophets may commit mistakes, which are
corrected by God, but these mistakes are not sins. Even these mistakes
are in the way of righteousness.
arah
The first guideline and correct method in dealing with a certain topic
in Islam is to survey all the scripts relevant to the topic at hand.
Based on this survey, one is able to conclude the general guideline
and the 'big picture' before we get to the specific verses or
narrations.
The big picture is important simply so that the details are not read
out of context, or in a way that could perhaps go against the very
essence of the Quranic view of a certain topic.
A comprehensive survey of the 'Jews in the Quran' topic is totally
beyond the size and scope of this article. Scholars say: The Quran is
almost all about Moses and his followers. So, it is a fact that the
number of verses that dealt with the stories of Jews and Jewish
prophets occupy a large portion of the Quran itself.
You even find the same story (for example, the Exodus) repeated in
various places in various ways from various angles, etc.
But I could say that a fair summary of the many verses of the Quran
that talked about the Jews or 'the Children of Israel', as the Quran
calls them in most cases, is the following:
There are two kinds of 'Children of Israel', and 'People of the
Book' (i.e. the Torah and the Gospels) in general. The first kind of
them are the Prophets (peace be upon them) and the true followers of
the message of God, and those are blessed and successful.
The second kind are those who are from 'the Children of Israel' in
terms of lineage or affiliation, but they are practically
disbelievers; they rejected the truth, they killed their prophets,
they concealed the scripts or altered them, and so forth.
Here are some examples from the verses of the Quran to make this point
clear:
Regarding the first type of 'the Children of Israel':
*{Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as
well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the
Sabians -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous
deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need
they have, and neither shall they grieve.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:62)
*{… for, verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine
writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians,
and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do
righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they
grieve.}* (Al-Ma'idah 5:69)
*{ [But] they are not all alike: among the People of the Book there
are upright people, who recite God's messages throughout the night,
and prostrate themselves [before Him]. They believe in God and the
Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing
of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and
these are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, they shall
never be denied the reward thereof: for, God has full knowledge of
those who are conscious of Him. [But,] behold, as for those who are
bent on denying the truth - neither their worldly possessions nor
their children will in the least avail them against God...}* (Aal
`Imran 3:113-116)
Now, regarding the second type:
*{God has indeed heard the saying of those who said, "Behold, God is
poor while we are rich!" We shall record what they have said, as well
as their slaying of prophets against all right …}* (Aal `Imran3:181)
*{And so, [We punished them] for the breaking of their pledge (with
God), and their refusal to acknowledge God's messages, and their
slaying of prophets against all right, and their boast …}* (An-Nisaa'
4:155)
*{So, then, for the wickedness committed by (some of) those who
followed the Jewish faith did We deny unto them certain of the good
things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; and [We did
this] for their having so often turned away from the path of God, and
[for] their taking usury although it had been forbidden to them, and
their wrongful devouring of other people's possessions. And for those
from among them who [continue to] deny the truth We have readied
grievous suffering.}* (An-Nisaa' 4:160-161)
Note here that 'some of' is put between brackets because it is not the
literal translation of the verse, yet the meaning of the expression
'min al-ladheena hadu' implies 'some of them' not 'all of them'.
Then, when some of the (again, some, not all) turned to the worship of
'Satan' or the 'powers of evil, or perhaps in an English expression
'sold their souls to the devil', God mentions in the Quran that He
cursed them and 'turned them into apes':
*{Say: "Shall I tell you who, in the sight of God, deserves a yet
worse retribution than these? They whom God has rejected and whom He
has condemned, and whom He has turned into apes and swine because they
worshipped the powers of evil …}* (Al-Ma'idah 5:60)
The interpreters of the Quran debated whether this is a real 'turning'
into apes or not. I find it straightforward to believe that, as many
exegetes had said, it is about the 'behavior of apes' in the sense of
having a certain temper and orientation to violence, etc, and not that
they themselves 'are' apes or pigs.
I am repeating here that the context of this verse is the people who
are amongst the 'People of the Book' by association, yet they do not
really belong to any book but rather worship the devil. Thus, to say
that the Quran called 'Jews' apes and swine is out of context and far
form accurate.
Similarly, the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the hadiths that you
mentioned is not cursing all Jews and Christians. He is cursing the
group of them that put the graves of their prophets in their places of
worship and then literally worshiped them.
The major problem here is about worshipping anything other than God,
and is not about the issue of the graves. So, the hadith that you
mentioned, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the
places of worship at the graves of their Prophets", is missing from
the end of it '(and worshipped them besides God)".
Clearly, those followers of the 'Book' who did not worship deities
other than God are not included in this curse.
Similarly, the hadith, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews
till some of them will hide behind stones ….", etc., is not calling
for 'anti-Semitism'. It is also talking about a war that has its
circumstances and obviously against 'aggressors', not against Jews per
se. In fact, it is forbidden for believers to transgress. The Quran
states:
*{And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but
do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.}*
(Al-Baqarah 2:190)
from Islam Online
Allah know best
So, the issue is not about race at all. It is about faith and
behavior.
FACE
<seo...@gmail.com>, wrote
>>The God character thought he was worthy enough to be saved
>
>>No. The Abraham character did.
>
>Abraham wasn't even in the myth of Sodum.
I hate to point this out, Seon, but you haven't a clue what you are trying
to talk about. Read Genesis 18 and then continue to Genesis 19.
>
>> even after he
>>allowed his daughters to be raped by the mob.
>
>>They weren't.
>
>I read the myth again, but he was willing to sacrifice his virgin daughters.
Yes. The mob wanted to get the two "men" to 'know' them in the biblical
sense -- that is explicit in the hebrew text. (the angels struck the mob
blind when they attacked Lot's house, attempting to break down the door).
On the one hand, Lot knew who his guests were (see Genesis 19.1 & .2), on
the other hand, he knew that the mob did not want his daughters.
FACE
FACE
<arah...@gmail.com>, wrote
>Had he invented lies concerning Us, We would have seized him by the
>right hand and severed his heart's vein; and no one from amongst you
>could have protected him (from Us). (Al-Haaqqah 69: 44 - 47)
"Types of Blood-Wit (Kitab Al-Diyat)
Dawud :: Book 39 : Hadith 4498
Narrated AbuSalamah:
Muhammad ibn Amr said
... [long hadith]
He then said about the pain of which he died: I continued to feel pain
from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaybar. This is the time when it has
cut off my aorta. "
Is it coincidence that muhammad died in the way specified by allah for a
false prophet? I think not.
FACE
duke
He gotcha, didn't he, seon. Lot didn't sacrifice his daughters.
duke
>On Oct 6, 2:34 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> >In this case, I agree with Arah. Prophets of the father have had sexual sins
>> >as well. It's not just Muhammad. In fact, Jesus is the only one in the Bible
>> >without sin.
>The story of Lot in the bible was corrupted!!!!
duke
God needs the story so he could install a GPS in the volcano that took S&G out.
duke
AMEN!
duke
>
>
>"� R. L. Measures." wrote in message news:rL-081011...@10.0.1.4...
>
>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
He knew there were no-takers in the mob.
duke
You don't know the story of Lot, do you.
duke
>In article <v00s87pj49socsea6...@4ax.com>, duke
><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:22:08 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <dd8k875dqqp5uqbn8...@4ax.com>, duke
>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Oct 3, 2:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. It's all about
>>>unlimited
>>>>>> sex.
>>>>
>>>>>Duke !!!!
>>>>>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no spiritual
>>>>value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
>>>>their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows
>eternal sex.
>>>
>>>• and not just the hetero kind Duke.
>>
>>sex = sex.
>>
>• boy bliss
Moh wants boy sex for all eternity.
• R. L. Measures.
reader what the men of Sodom and Gomorrah lusted for. As it's related by
a friend who lives in Palm Springs, pretty much the same thing applies to
parts of Palm Springs, CA and Palm Desert, CA.
• R. L. Measures.
� R. L. Measures.
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 20:21:23 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>
>>In article <v00s87pj49socsea6...@4ax.com>, duke
>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:22:08 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <dd8k875dqqp5uqbn8...@4ax.com>, duke
>>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Oct 3, 2:50�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Arah hasn't figured out how evil his faith really is. �It's all about
>>>>unlimited
>>>>>>> sex.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Duke !!!!
>>>>>>Are you refering to the stories of King Solomon and Lot in the bible?
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are many in this world coming to understand that there is no
spiritual
>>>>>value in Islam. Moh is seen as a man that swooned over the populace to get
>>>>>their attention, to build an army, and to give he and his follows
>>eternal sex.
>>>>
>>>>� and not just the hetero kind Duke.
>>>
>>>sex = sex.
>>>
>>� boy bliss
>
>Moh wants boy sex for all eternity.
>
� Boy bliss is certainly provided in Janna (Islamic paradise), but we
only know that the wonderful prophet was into young girls.
Seon Ferguson
"duke" wrote in message news:1ig39797hcr59r95u...@4ax.com...
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 10:11:35 +1100, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>"FACE" wrote in message news:r0s09711qohev3i4q...@4ax.com...
>
>On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 08:18:46 -0500, in uk.religion.islam, duke
><duckg...@cox.net>, wrote
>
>>>But God the father in the trinity still thought it was a good thing Lot
>>>sacrificed his daughters.
>>
>>Lot did.........what????
>
>>I have to wonder what wild-eyed website such silliness came from.........
>
>If you want silly try reading the Bible or Koran.
>He gotcha, didn't he, seon. Lot didn't sacrifice his daughters.
Seon Ferguson
"arah" wrote in message
news:3115c05c-0ae3-4641...@b6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
**********************************
But Arah, Muhammad wasn't sinless. He killed the Jews of medina. He had dogs
killed, he had sex with a child. And Moses wasn't without sin as well. Moses
killed half of the Israelites just because they got fed up of waiting for
him and worshiped a golden calf.
Seon Ferguson
"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message news:rL-091011...@10.0.1.4...
In article <YbWdnemHiIccRQ3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
>news:rL-081011...@10.0.1.4...
>
>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
>>• That mob would never have laid a finger on the girls.
>
>So what would the point of offering his daughters be?
>€€ it could have been a literary tool to further illustrate for the
>reader what the men of Sodom and Gomorrah lusted for. As it's related by
>a friend who lives in Palm Springs, pretty much the same thing applies to
>parts of Palm Springs, CA and Palm Desert, CA.
Bi people also commit sin with women, oh well good thing it's just a myth.
But no wonder Christians who believe it is literal are so fucked up.
Seon Ferguson
"duke" wrote in message news:tpg397hncctvu3r0m...@4ax.com...
in the Bible.
Seon Ferguson
"FACE" wrote in message news:j643979a7jr4rlq7s...@4ax.com...
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 10:08:20 +1100, in uk.religion.islam, "Seon Ferguson"
<seo...@gmail.com>, wrote
>>The God character thought he was worthy enough to be saved
>
>>No. The Abraham character did.
>
>Abraham wasn't even in the myth of Sodum.
>I hate to point this out, Seon, but you haven't a clue what you are trying
>to talk about. Read Genesis 18 and then continue to Genesis 19.
Oh, in the myth Abraham convinced God to let him see if they were any
righteous men there.
>
>> even after he
>>allowed his daughters to be raped by the mob.
>
>>They weren't.
>
>I read the myth again, but he was willing to sacrifice his virgin
>daughters.
>Yes. The mob wanted to get the two "men" to 'know' them in the biblical
>sense -- that is explicit in the hebrew text. (the angels struck the mob
>blind when they attacked Lot's house, attempting to break down the door).
>On the one hand, Lot knew who his guests were (see Genesis 19.1 & .2), on
>the other hand, he knew that the mob did not want his daughters.
I don't see any evidence Lot knew who they were until they struck the mob
with blindness.
ARAH
>
> Lot knew that a bunch of queers outside his door didn't want his daughters.
God alone and not to associate anything or anyone with Him. However,
God sent Prophet Muhammad to all of humankind. Although his message
was the same, he came with a new law, one to cover all people, in all
places, at all times, even into a distant future continuing to the Day
of Judgement. The revelation of different chapters of Quran was often
in response to a particular event or experiences of the Prophet and
his followers. The stories in the Quran teach lessons, provide the
historical background of humankind, and demonstrate the nature of
God. The story of Prophet Lot is one that is particularly pertinent
in the 21st century.
In many cities across the world, it is unsafe to walk down the
streets, even in daylight. Murder is rife, identities stolen, and
drugs abound. Nowadays most children in high school have already
encountered drug users and sellers. Alcohol is freely available at
corner stores, even though it is responsible for the break up of
families, domestic violence and the corrosion of society. Paedophilia
is rampant, as is child pornography and human trafficking. Degenerate
lifestyles are accepted and even thought of as normal. This
description paints a picture of a scary, out of control world, but is
it really so different from the time of Prophet Lot?
The people of Lot lived in a society very similar to our own. It was
corrupt, the people had no shame, criminals and criminal activity
abounded, and those passing through the town of Sodom risked robbery
and physical abuse. The overall atmosphere of the town was not one of
a cohesive society. The people of Lot were without morals, without
standards and without shame. The homosexuality that abounded did not
exist in a vacuum, it was part of a lifestyle that not only allowed,
but also encouraged vice and corruption. It was to this town that God
sent Prophet Lot; his message was to worship God alone. However,
embedded in worship are the desire and the willingness to obey God’s
commandments? The people of Sodom were content with their corrupt
ways and had no desire to curb them. Lot became an annoyance and his
words were ignored.
Prophet Lot called the people to give up their criminal activities and
indecent behaviour but they refused to listen. Lot confronted his
people and admonished them. He pointed out their corruption, their
criminal activities and their unnatural sexual behaviour.
“Will you not fear God and obey Him? Verily! I am a trustworthy
Messenger to you. So fear God and obey me. No reward do I ask of you
for it (my Message) my reward is only from the Lord of all that
exists.” (Quran 26:161-164)
In the last 20 or 30 years, it has become common to talk of
homosexuality as a natural way of life, however according to God’s law
and in all three heavenly religions, (Judaism, Christianity and Islam)
this is not acceptable. The new idea that homosexuality is somehow
genetically determined is also rejected by Islam. Quran clearly
states that the people of Sodom were the first to practice this sexual
aberration.
“Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from
among the worlds [i.e., peoples]? Indeed, you approach men with
desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."
The people of Sodom had reached such a level of degradation they no
longer had any shame. They would commit their unnatural acts in
public or in private. Satan was amongst them, and as is his way, he
made their actions appear fair and wholesome. When Lot insisted they
change their evil ways, they wanted to drive him out of town, as if by
calling to purity, he was the one committing a great sin. The people
of Sodom said to Lot, “If you cease not, O Lot! Verily, you will be
one of those who are driven out!” (Quran 26:167) Lot openly expressed
his anger and fury at the evil deeds and unnatural acts and called on
God to save him and his family from the evil of the people of Sodom.
In another part of the world, Prophet Abraham, the uncle of Prophet
Lot, received three guests. Known for his generosity, Prophet Abraham
roasted a calf but to his dismay, the guests refused to eat. This was
very unusual. Travellers are usually hungry and the fact that these
guests refused his generosity made Prophet Abraham very uneasy. The
guests saw his uneasiness and tried to put his fears to rest. They
said, “Do not be afraid!” (Quran 15:53) His fears allayed, Prophet
Abraham asked his guests what business had bought them to his town.
They replied, “We have been sent to a people who are criminals,
disbelievers, polytheists, sinners”. (Quran 15:58)
The people of Sodom had become corrupt, believing their evil ways were
acceptable. Unfortunately, in the 21st century we have become so
accustomed to evil and ignorance we are no longer able to respond in
the correct manner. We make excuses and try to justify evil behaviour
but the fact is, when people continuously, and openly disrespect and
disobey God we should be outraged. The angels took their leave from
Prophet Abraham and made their way to the city of Sodom, in search of
Prophet Lot and his family.
Next: The Story of Lot (part 2 of 2): The Destruction of Sodom
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1872/
ARAH
> ButArah, Muhammad wasn't sinless. He killed the Jews of medina....
There are many critics of Islam (both Christian and atheist) that
accuse Prophet Muhammad of being unfair with the way he dealt with the
Three Jewish Tribes of Madinah. This essay will show the problems the
Jewish Tribes were causing for the Muslims, while in Madinah and
clearfiy some myths about certian historical events surrounding the
Jews of Madinah.
The Jews of Madinah could be immigrants from Palestine or they
could've been Arab converts to Judaism. The evidence points to them
being both, Palestian Jews and Arab Jews who made up the population of
Jews in Madinah. But in any case, they had their own Torah, they
followed Jewish laws, they followed Jewish holidays, etc. They were
Jewish.... but not all of them were ethnically Jewish. [1]
There were five main Jewish Tribes in Madinah. The most powerful were
the Banu Nadir, The Banu Qurayzah and the The Banu Qaynuqa. The Jews
of Yathrib (Madinah was called Yathrib before Prophet Muhammad renamed
the city, Madinah. But to keep things from being confusing, I'll refer
the city to being Madinah). The Jews of Madinah were rich. The reason
why is because they occupied Madinah's most fertile agricultural
lands, called "The Heights". They became masters of Arabia's most
prized crop: dates. The Jews of Madinah were also skilled jewelers,
clothiers, arm makers, and vintners. It was said that Jewish wine was
considered the bestin Arabia. The five largest Jewish Tribes in
Madinah enjoyed a complete monopoly over Yathrib's economy.
The Jews of Madinah were also expecting a powerful Prophet to arise
among them. The Jews believed that a Powerful Prophet would arise.
Several Jewish rabbis and scholars knew of this. In fact it is said by
Ibn Sad one Jewish Rabbi came to Muhammad when he was a baby and
looked at him. What he said was amazing: He added: "Verily the Jews
are his enemies, and he is the Prophet of these people; he is an Arab
and the Jews are jealous of him wishing that he should have been an
Israelite. So guard your brother's son." [2]
II. The Consitution of Madinah
When Prophet Muhammad came to Madinah he made a treaty with the Jews,
Arabs, the Ansar and the Muhajjurn. This treaty or contract is also
known as the Consituionof Madinah (interestingly enough, it is
considered the world's first consitution). The Treaty went like this:
" In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Mericiful. This is a
document from Muhammad the Prophet (governing the relations) between
the believers and Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib, and those who
followed them and joined them and labored with them. They are one
community (ummah) to the exclusion of all men..... The believers shall
not leave anyone destitute among them by no paying his redemption
money or bloodwit in kindness."
(From Ibn Ishaq 231-232)
The Consitution of Medinah goes on to detail
You can read more about the Treaty here. However as will be seen, the
three main Jewish tribes of Madinah (The Banu Nadir, The Banu Qurayzah
and the The Banu Qaynuqa) broke the treaty.
There was a Jewish Rabbi named Abdullah bin Salam. Abdullah was very
knowlegedgable on the Torah and the Jewish religion. When he heard
that Prophet Muhammad was forced to leave Mecca and came to Madinah he
came rushing to Prophet Muhammad. He wanted to see if Prophet Muhammad
was a true Prophet or not.
To see if Prophet Muhammad was truthful or not, Abdullah asked Prophet
Muhammad three questions which nobody knows except if he is a real
Prophet from God.
The following Hadith shows this:
Narrated Anas: 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the news of the arrival of
Allah's Apostle (at Medina) while he was on a farm collecting its
fruits. So he came to the Prophet and said, "I will ask you about
three things which nobody knows unless he be a prophet. Firstly, what
is the first portent of the Hour? What is the first meal of the people
of Paradise? And what makes a baby look like its father or mother?'.
The Prophet said, "Just now Gabriel has informed me about that."
'Abdullah said, "Gabriel?" The Prophet said, "Yes." 'Abdullah said,
"He, among the angels is the enemy of the Jews." On that the Prophet
recited this Holy Verse:--
"Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel (let him die in his fury!) for he has
brought it (i.e. Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's
permission." (2.97) Then he added, "As for the first portent of the
Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to
West. And as for the first meal of the people of Paradise, it will be
the caudite (i.e. extra) lobe of the fish liver. And if a man's
discharge proceeded that of the woman, then the child resembles the
father, and if the woman's discharge proceeded that of the man, then
the child resembles the mother." On hearing that, 'Abdullah said, "I
testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and that
you are the Apostle of Allah, O, Allah's Apostle; the Jews are liars,
and if they should come to know that I have embraced Islam, they would
accuse me of being a liar." In the meantime some Jews came (to the
Prophet) and he asked them, "What is 'Abdullah's status amongst you?"
They replied, "He is the best amongst us, and he is our chief and the
son of our chief." The Prophet said, "What would you think if
'Abdullah bin Salam embraced Islam?" They replied, "May Allah protect
him from this!" Then 'Abdullah came out and said, "I testify that None
has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the
Apostle of Allah." The Jews then said, "Abdullah is the worst of us
and the son of the worst of us," and disparaged him. On that 'Abdullah
said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is what I was afraid of!" (Bukhari
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 7)
The Jews knew that Prophet Muhammad was the prophet they were
expecting according to their Torah. Prophet Muhammad went to a Jewish
seminary, where he challenged the rabbis:"Bring forward the most
learned among you before me." When that man came forward, he and
Muhammad spoke in private. Finally Muhammad asked him, "Do you know
that I am the Apostle of Allah?" The rabbi answered, "By Allah! Yes,
and the people know what I know.Verily your attributes and qualities
are clearly mentioned in the Torah, butthey are jealous of you." (Ibn
Sa'd, vol. I, 188..)
So the Jews knew about the Prophet, they knew that he was the Prophet
according to their own Torah. However they still rejected Prophet
Muhammad, despite this.
III. The Banu Qaynuqa
Prophet did not make entering Islam a condition for any one of the
Jews to stay in Madinah. The Consitution of Madinah or the treaty
allowed the Jews to stay in Madinah and practice their religion. The
reason for the Banu Qaynuqa Jews expulsion was the aggression which
they showed. This resulted in a breach of the internal security of
Madinah.
After the Muslim Victory at the Battle of Badr, the Jews of Banu
Qaynuqa showed anger and jealousy towards the Muslims and Prophet
Muhammad. It is also said in Ibn Ishaq that a Qaynuqa Jew tore off a
woman's dress in a market place in Madinah. The woman then ran away
screaming, naked. A Muslim then fought the Qaynuqa Jew. This started a
bitter rivary between the Qaynuqa Jews and Prophet Muhammad. The Banu
Qaynuqa were the first of the Jews to break their agreement with the
Muslims and go to war and had to be dealt with swiftly so as to quash
any ideas of the other Jewish tribes to instigate a war against the
Muslims.[7] The Banu Qaynuqa betrayed their oat of mutual protection
and shown themselves to be against Prophet Muhammad. Because of their
treason, Prophet Muhammad expelled the Banu Qaynuqa Jews from Madinah.
They were allowed to take most of their property with them. [8]
IV. The Banu Nadir
The Banu Nadir broke the treaty with Prophet Muhammad by first
betraying him, then trying to kill him thren refusing to make another
peace treaty with him.
First the Banu Nadir attempted to kill Prophet Muhammad two times. One
day Some Jews of the Banu Nadir had decided to kill the Prophet by
dropping a large stone on his head one day. The Muslims heard about
this and told Muhammad. Despite the Jews constant attacks and
assisination attempts Prophet Muhamamd merely told them to leave
Madinah. [3] The Jews of Banu Nadir tried to kill Prophet Muhammad a
second time as well. As Bismikaallahuma says:
The second attempt was reported by Ibn Ishaq, who was followed by most
of the other Sirah writers. The Prophet went to Banu al Nadir to ask
them for help in paying the blood money for two men from a tribe which
was party to the treaty, whom Amr ibn Umayyah al Damari had killed by
mistake following the incident of al Raji. When he came to Banu al
Nadir, he sat down against a wall. They were about to drop a rock onto
him and kill him, but he learnt of that through divine inspiration. He
left them quickly and went back to Madinah, and he ordered that they
should be besieged. They agreed to a peace treaty after a siege
lasting six days, on the condition that they could take with them
whatever their camels could carry. [4] The isnad of this report ends
with Yazid ibn Ruman, who is a lesser tabi’i, but it could be
strengthened by other similar reports. Indeed, it was followed by the
report of ?Urwah ibn al Zubayr in the Maghazi of Musa ibn ?Uqbah. [5]
The Banu Nadir also started to support and help the Qurash of Mecca
against Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). So we can see the Banu
Nadir was not an innocent tribe. The Banu Nadir started to fight
against Prophet Muhammad [6]. Banu Nadir already had a peace treaty
with the Muslims, until they broke it. The Banu Nadir left Madinah for
Khaybar (a place in Northern Madinah) taking their wealth and property
with them. So the Banu Nadir were not some innocent tribe. Prophet
Muhammad however was merciful to them however and let them leave.
V. The Banu Qurayzah
After the Exile of the Banu Qaynua and the Banu Nadir Jewish Tribes,
some of those Jews who remained approached the Quraysh, offering an
alliance against Muhammad and the Muslims. The Quraysh readily
accepted. So these Jews of Qurayzah were guilty of treason. Then to
make matters even worse, a tribe of Jews in Medina, the Banu Qurayzah,
broke their covenant with the Prophet of Islam (perhaps after
reflecting upon the fate of the Banu Qaynuqa and Banu Nadir) and began
collaborating with the Quraysh of Mecca. Madinah was constantly under
attack by the Meccans. The Banu Qurayzah were helping the Meccans,
despite their agreement not to. The Banu Qurayzah were gulity of
treason. Instead of living in peace with the Muslims they along Qurash
of Mecca wanted to destroy Islam. They too broke the treaty they
signed.
The Banu Qurayzah started to fight aganist Prophet Muhammad, even
after he allowed them to stay in Madinah when they broke their treaty
[7] The reason for the campaign against the Jews of Banu Qurayzah goes
back to Banu Qurayzah’s breaking of the treaty between themselves and
the Prophet. After the Seige of the Banu Qurayzah they finally
surrendered to Prophet Muhammad.
Prophet Muhammad then decided that Sa'd ibn Muaz should decide the
fate of the Banu Qurayzah. Sa'd decided that the men warriors should
be killed and that their women and children should be taken as slaves.
The following is illustrated below:
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready
to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to
him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle
said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat
beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to
accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their
warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken
as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged
amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King
Allah." (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280)
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin
Quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh so the Prophet
sent for him (i.e. Sad bin Muadh). He came riding a donkey, and when
he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said, "Get up for the best
amongst you." or said, "Get up for your chief." Then the Prophet said,
"O Sad! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "I
judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and
women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given
a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's
judgment)." (Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 148)
It has been narrated on the authority of A'isha who said: Sa'd was
wounded on the day of the Battle of the Ditch. A man from the Quraish
called Ibn al-Ariqah shot at him an arrow which pierced the artery in
the middle of his forearm. The Messenger of Allah (may peacce be upon
him) pitched a tent for him in the mosque and would inquire after him
being in close proximity. When he returned from the Ditch and laid
down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and
he was removing dust from his hair (as if he had just returned from
the battle). The latter said: You have laid down arms. By God, we
haven't (yet) laid them down. So march against them. The Messenger of
Allah (may peace be upon him) asked: Where? He poirftad to Banu
Quraiza. So the Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) fought
against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of
Allah (may peace be upon him), but he referred the decision about them
to Sa'd who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight
be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their
properties distributed (among the Muslims). (Muslim Book 019, Number
4370)
Plus it was not Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who issued the
order; it was Saad bin Muadh whom the Jews selected to judge their
fate. It is clear that Saad ibn Muaz(R) have administered the
punishment in accordance with Jewish law as found in the Torah. The
law is:
“When the Lord thy God hath delivered it unto thy hands, thou shalt
smite every male therein with the edge of the sword: but the women,
and the little ones and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even
all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself.” (Deuteronomy
20:12)
It is therefore clear that Muslims are not to be blamed for
administering a Law that is found within the Jewish scripture itself
upon the Jews who had earlier agreed to submit to Saad ibn Muaz’s
judgement. The Prophet(P) neither influenced the decision nor was he
involved in any stage of the decision-making, as the representatives
of Banu Qurayzah did not seek his judgement.
It is commonly said that anywhere between 400 to 900 Jewish Men were
killed. But this is not true. We don't know how many Jewish men were
killed, but the number is certainly not as high as 500 to 900.
VI. The Jews of Khaybar
Banu Nadir in Khaybar, who were inciting hostilities along with
neighboring Arab tribes against Prophet Muhammad.I n addition, the
Nadir paid Arabian tribes to go to war against the Muslims. Bribing
Banu Ghatafan and the Banu Asad with half their harvest, Banu Nadir
secured 2,000 men 300 horsemen from the tribe to attack Prophet
Muhammad. The Banu Nadir bribed many Arab tribes with wealth to fight
against Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
When Prophet Muhammad heard about this, he made his trip to Khaybar (a
place in Northern Arabia) to deal with the attacks of the Arab Tribes
and the Jews upon the Muslims.
The siege of Khaybar lasted a month. Eventually the Jews of Khaybar
came to Prophet Muhammad and made a peace treaty with him. However
they broke the treaty with the Prophet:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: The Prophet fought with the people of
Khaybar, and captured their palm-trees and land, and forced them to
remain confined to their fortresses. So they concluded a treaty of
peace providing that gold, silver and weapons would go to the Apostle
of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and whatever they took away on their
camels would belong to them, on condition that they would not hide and
carry away anything. If they did (so), there would be no protection
for them and no treaty (with Muslims).
They carried away a purse of Huyayy ibn Akhtab who was killed before
(the battle of) Khaybar. He took away the ornaments of Banu an-Nadir
when they were expelled. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) asked Sa'yah:
Where is the purse of Huyayy ibn Akhtab?
He replied: The contents of this purse were spent on battles and other
expenses. (Later on) they found the purse. So he killed Ibn
AbulHuqayq, captured their women and children, and intended to deport
them. They said: Muhammad, leave us to work on this land; we shall
have half (of the produce) as you wish, and you will have half. The
Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to make a contribution of
eighty wasqs of dates and twenty wasqs of wheat to each of his wives.
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 19, Number 3000)
What this hadith states is this:
-The Muslims and the Jews at Khaybar were already at war
- The Muslims and the Jews agreed to a peace treaty that ended
the war.
- The peace treaty stated that the Jews must not hide any
treasure from the Muslims; otherwise this would be considered a
violation of the treaty.
- If the treaty is broken, then that means that the other
party is a war combatant who must be fought and killed.
- Kinana broke the treaty by hiding the treasure
unjustifiably due to his greed.
- Kinana was treated as a war combatant because he violated
one of the conditions of the peace treaty.
- War combatants are to be killed.
- Kinana knew that what he would do would lead to his death
if he were to get caught. No one forced him to lie or to be greedy. It
was his choice.
- Kinana's death was justifiable.
In May 629, the Muslims defeated several Jewish tribes (including the
Banu Nadir) at the Battle of Khaybar. The rest of Khaybar fell to the
Muslims. The people of Fidak, to the north of Khaybar, hastened to ask
for peace, and to be allowed to leave in safety, and leave their
wealth in return for that. The Prophet agreed to their request.Ibn
Hisham, al Sirah, 32/449
The Jews of Khaybar went into exile like the Banu Nadir (Ibn Sa’d
Volume 2 page 132 and 133). It is alleged that there were treasures
found in Khaybar. The Jewish farmers asked to stay in Khaybar and
Prophet Muhammad let them stay (Ibn Sa'd, vol. II, 136.)
http://www.answering-christian-claims.com/The_Jewish_Tribes_Of_Madinah.html
duke
sex = sex. Just like I said.
duke
Lot knew the mob wasn't interested in his daughters.
duke
>>So what would the point of offering his daughters be?
>
>>�€ it could have been a literary tool to further illustrate for the
>>reader what the men of Sodom and Gomorrah lusted for. As it's related by
>>a friend who lives in Palm Springs, pretty much the same thing applies to
>>parts of Palm Springs, CA and Palm Desert, CA.
>
>Bi people also commit sin with women, oh well good thing it's just a myth.
>But no wonder Christians who believe it is literal are so fucked up.
duke
>In article <0og397li4lk58olo8...@4ax.com>, duke
><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:29:49 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>>>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message news:rL-061011...@10.0.1.4...
Is West Hollywood 100% queer?
duke
duke
>>I read the myth again, but he was willing to sacrifice his virgin
>>daughters.
>
>>Yes. The mob wanted to get the two "men" to 'know' them in the biblical
>>sense -- that is explicit in the hebrew text. (the angels struck the mob
>>blind when they attacked Lot's house, attempting to break down the door).
>
>>On the one hand, Lot knew who his guests were (see Genesis 19.1 & .2), on
>>the other hand, he knew that the mob did not want his daughters.
>
>I don't see any evidence Lot knew who they were until they struck the mob
>with blindness.
The lesson, seon, the lesson.
arah
>
> Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
> confused about it all.
Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him really recognize the Bible as
an error-free book?
First of all, it is important to know that if the "Bibles" of today,
with all their versions and differences in the quantity of their
"books" and "gospels", were in fact the Original Holy Word of GOD
Almighty, then there would be no need for the Noble Quran. But since
they are corrupt, then we obviously can't consider them as GOD
Almighty's Holy and Divine Words.
The Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Bible. Allah
Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam
is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood
and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the
Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it.
Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that
has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of
the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been
revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure,
undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of
the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and
distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said,
'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the
knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about
anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking
you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Translation of Sahih
Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92,
Number 461)"
Narrated AbuNamlah al-Ansari: "When he was sitting with the Apostle of
Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and a Jew was also with him, a funeral
passed by him. He (the Jew) asked (Him): Muhammad, does this funeral
speak? The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has more knowledge.
The Jew said: It speaks.
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Whatever the people of
the Book [Jews and Christians] tell you, do not verify them, nor
falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is
false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it.
(Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Knowledge (Kitab Al-Ilm), Book 25,
Number 3637)"
The following two Sayings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be
upon him were sent to me by Yusif 65; may Allah Almighty always be
pleased with him:
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of
the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been
revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure,
undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of
the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and
distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said,
'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the
knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about
anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking
you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih
Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92,
Number 461)"
Narrated Abu Huraira: "The people of the Book used to read the Torah
in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's
Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book,
nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is
revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' ' (Translation of
Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book
92, Number 460)"
As we clearly see in the above Sayings of our beloved Prophet peace be
upon him, we see that the source that the Jews and Christians use
(i.e. the Bible or any other religious source such as their Popes',
Rabbis or other religious people's verdicts) must be ignored because
it is not reliable. As we've seen in the above introduction, the man-
made scribes (laws) had corrupted the Bible and turned it "into a
lie" (Jeremiah 8:8).
Please visit According to Islam, why did GOD Almighty allow for the
Bible to get corrupted?
What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth?
and Why?
Just who were the real authors of the Bible? Today's Books and
Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments that
prove that from the Theologians and Historians of the NIV Bible from
the NIV Bible itself! Just why in the world should I believe in
today's Bible?
2- What about the Jews whom the Prophet punished according to their
Mosaic Law?
The following was sent to me by brother Johnny Bravo; may Allah
Almighty always be pleased with him.
The missionary argument is that Islamically the Bible is accurate
because Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him ruled according to one of
its law. This is indeed very funny. Christian Missionary, Sam
Shamoun, after distorting dozens of verses from the Holy Quran and
amazing his with his funny interpretations, informs his readers:
"Our usage of the Quran does not imply our belief in its authority nor
its inspiration. We quote it solely for the sake of convincing the
Muslims of the Bible's authority and authenticity as a fact confirmed
by their religious text."
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/aboutbible.htm
Precisely! Similarly, the ruling of stoning applied to the Jew and
Jewess according to the Jewish scriptures also does not imply that the
entire text of the Jewish Christian scriptures is authentic and
pristine. Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him was *also* using it as
his evidence against the Jews. Yes there were many addition and
deletion in the Jewish scriptures, they were corrupted, but despite
their corruption, they still contained enough truth in them to lead
any person to Islam. Thus, had the Jews followed their own book, they
would have had no other choice but to become Muslims because their
book still contained enough truth therein to lead a person to Islam.
The problem with the Jews was that they didn't even bother to follow
that which they themselves considered to be Divinely revealed by
Allah.
The punishment for stoning for example is the authentic revelation
from Allah which we find intact in even the present day Jewish
scriptures, but these Jews during the time of Prophet Muhammed peace
be upon him did not bother to follow this Law revealed by Allah. Had
they applied all the laws and commandments in their scriptures, never
mind the corruption, they would have had no choice but to become
Muslims.
Well known commentator Ibn Kathir, explains:
"These Hadith's (Saying of Prophet Muhammad in Arabic) state that the
Messenger of Allah peace be upon him issued a decision that conforms
with the ruling in the Tawrah, not to honour the Jews in what they
believe in, for the Jews were commanded to follow the Law of Muhammad
peace be upon him only. Rather, the Prophet peace be upon him did
this because Allah commanded him to do so.
He asked them about the ruling of stoning in the Tawrah to make them
admit to what the Tawrah (Torah) contains and what they collaborated
to hide, deny and exclude from implementing for all that time. They
had to admit to what they did, although they did it while having
knowledge of the correct ruling. What made them go to the Prophet
peace be upon him for judgement in this matter was their lusts and
desires, hoping that the Prophet peace be upon him would agree with
their opinion, not that they believed in the correctness of his
judgement."
[Tafsir Ibn Kathir Abridged. Volume 3. Pg. 182. Darussalam Publishers
and Distributors. 2000]
Sheikh Abdurrahman Abdul-Khaaliq states:
"The Torah, the Old Testament, and the Gospel, the New testament,
still contain some truth and guidance that can be evidence against
Jews and Christians. If they implemented their laws, Jews and
Christians would believe in the Prophet Muhammad's message, confirming
what was sent before him, and thus would follow the guidance and
light. Muhammad was sent down with clear evidence to his truthfulness
and he followed the path of the Prophets before him, who were sent to
the Jews and the Christians."
[Sheikh Abdurrahman Abdul-Khaaliq. "The Bible's Testimony that Jesus
is the Slave-Servant, and Messenger of Allah." pg. 8. The Daar of
Islamic Heritage 1994]
So there we go. It is worth noting that the Quran does not mention
any "Bible" or "Mathew", "Mark", "Genesis", "Numbers" etc. The Quran
only mentions the Tauraat revealed to Musa (Moses) peace be upon him
and the Injeel (Gospel) revealed to Esa (Jesus) peace be upon him.
Not any Gospel "according to Mathew" etc. The Quran is MUHAYMIN over
the previous scriptures (5:48), meaning criteria, watcher-over,
control, guardian, dominant, trustworthy, witness, rectifying etc. So
whatever agrees with the Quran we accept that we reject whatever
disagrees with the Quran. The present day Jewish Christian scriptures
may contain truth in them, we do not deny that, however their also
contain the words of man and errors, interpolations and deletions. A
Muslim is commanded to use the Quran as the judge (5:48) to separate
the truth from falsehood.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_not_error_free.htm
arah
'The Lord appeared to Abraham at the sacred trees of Mamre. ...he
looked up and saw three men standing there. ...he ran out to meet
them. ...he said, "Sirs, please do not pass by my home without
stopping; I am here to serve you. Let me bring some water for you to
wash your feet; you can rest here beneath this tree. I will also bring
a bit of food; it will give you strength to continue your
journey. ..."
They replied, "Thank you; we accept."
He took some cream, some milk, and the meat, and set the food before
the men. There under the tree he served them himself, and they ate.
One of them said, "Nine months from now I will come back, and your
wife Sarah will have a son."
Abraham and Sarah were very old, and Sarah had stopped having her
monthly periods. So Sarah laughed to herself.
Then the Lord asked Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and said, 'Can I
really have a child when I am so old?' Is anything too hard for the
Lord?
Then the men left and went to a place where they could look down at
Sodom, ...And the Lord said, "I will not hide from Abraham what I am
going to do. ...
Then the Lord said to Abraham, "There are terrible accusations against
Sodom and Gomorrah, and their sin is very great. I must go down to
find out whether or not the accusations which I have heard are true."
Abraham approached the Lord and asked. "Are you really going to
destroy the innocent with the guilty? He said, "I will not destroy it
if there are ten." after he had finished speaking with Abraham.
When the two angels came to Sodom that evening, Lot was sitting at the
city gate. As soon as he saw them, he got up and went to meet them. He
bowed down before them and said, "Sirs, I am here to serve you. Please
come to my house. You can wash your feet and stay the night. In the
morning you can get up early and go on your way.” But they answered,
"No, we will spend the night here in the city square.” He kept on
urging them, and finally they went with him to his house. Lot ordered
his servants to bake some bread and prepare a fine meal for the guests
When it was ready, they ate it.
Before the guests went to bed, the men of Sodom surrounded the house.
All the men of the city, both young and old, were there. They called
out to Lot and asked, "Where are the men who came to stay with you
tonight? Bring them out to us!" The men of Sodom wanted to have sex
with them.
Lot went outside and closed the door behind. He said to them,
"Friends, I beg you, don't do such a wicked thing! Look, I have two
daughters who are still virgins. Let me bring them out to you, and you
can do whatever you want with them. But don't do anything to these
men; they are guests in my house, and I must protect them.”
But they said, "Get out of our way, you foreigner! Who are you to tell
us what to do? Out of our way, or we will treat you worse than them."
They pushed Lot back and moved up to break down the door. But the two
men inside reached out, pulled Lot back into the house, and shut the
door. Then they struck all the men outside with blindness, so that
they couldn't find the door.
The two men said to Lot, "If you have anyone else here -- sons,
daughters, sons-in-law, or any other relatives living in the city --
get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The
Lord has heard the terrible accusations against these people and has
sent us to destroy Sodom."
Suddenly the Lord rained burning sulphur on the cities of Sodom and
Gomorrah. Because Lot was afraid to stay in Zoar, he and his two
daughters, moved up into the hills and lived in a cave. The elder
daughter said to her sister. "Our father is getting old, and there are
no men in the whole world to marry us so that we can have children.
Come on, let's make our father drunk, so that we can sleep with him
and have children by him." That night they gave him wine to drink, and
the elder daughter had intercourse with him. But he was so drunk that
he didn't know it.
The next day, the elder daughter said to her sister, "I slept with him
last night; now let's make him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with
him. Then each of us will have a child by our father." So that night
they made him drunk, and the younger daughter had intercourse with
him. Again he was so drunk that he didn't know it. In this way both of
Lot's daughters became pregnant by their own father. The elder
daughter had a son, whom she named Moab. He was the ancestor of the
present-day Moabites. The younger daughter also had a son, whom she
named Benammi. He was the ancestor of the present-day Ammonites.l
Analysis of the Account of Lot in the Torah.
In this account Torah narrates the story of the Prophet Abraham ('a),
the presence of the angels in the Prophet's house, the matter of
Sarah's son, the destruction of Lot's people, and the visit of the
Angeles with Lot, in a language incompatible with the spirit of the
divine faiths and the characteristics of the Prophets. In this story
certain ill-deeds are ascribed to the prophets who are actually immune
from any sin. Anyhow, following points could be drawn:
In this story God is considered as a visible body, descended from the
sky and attended a feast in Abraham's house, and Abraham also washed
His feet and served Him with roasted calf.
In the first stance, God appeared to Abraham in the form of three
persons, then Abraham addressed him in singular pronoun and later
addressed him (them) in plural pronoun. It is not known whether they
were men, angels or God. According to the Torah they were God who
surprisingly ate food over there as well!
In the following verse: "I must go down to find out whether or not the
accusations which I have heard are true." it implies that God does not
know unless he comes down to find out! Here the attribute of ignorance
is attributed to God!
Torah accused the Prophet of God of drinking wine and having
intercourse with his chaste daughters. Even an ordinary man may not
commit such shameful let alone the Prophet of God. Surprising point is
that from the progeny of The Prophet Lot, two sons (illegitimate sons)
remained. One of them became the ancestor of the present-day Moabites
and the other who was Benammi became the ancestor of the presnt-day
Ammonies.
The Account of Lot in the Qur’an
"Our messengers came to Abraham with the good tidings; they said,
'Peace!' 'Peace,' he said; and presently he brought a roasted calf.
And when he saw their hands not reaching towards it, he was suspicious
of them and conceived a fear of them. They said, 'Fear not; we have
been sent to the people of Lot.’
And his wife (Sarah) was standing by; she laughed, therefore We gave
her the glad tidings of Isaac, and after Isaac, of Jacob.
She said, 'Woe is me! Shall I bear, being an old woman? This assuredly
is a strange thing.’
They said, 'What, dost thou marvel at God's command? The mercy of God
and His blessings be upon you, O people of the House! Sure He is All-
laudable, All-glorious.’
So, when the awe departed from Abraham and the good tidings came to
him, he was disputing with us concerning the people of Lot; Abraham
was clement, compassionate, penitent.
‘O Abraham turn away from this; thy Lord's command has surely come,
and there is coming upon them a chastisement not to be turned back.'
And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was troubled on their account
and distressed for them, and he said, 'This is a fierce day.'
And his people came to him, running towards him; and erstwhile they
had been doing evil deeds. He said, ' O my people, these are my
daughters; they are cleaner for you. So fear God, and do not degrade
me in my guests. What, is there not one man among you of a right
mind?'
They said, 'Thou knowest we have no right to thy daughters, and thou
well knowest what we desire.'
He said, ' O would that I had power against you, or might take refuge
at a strong pillar!
They said, 'Lot, we are messengers of thy Lord. They shall not reach
thee; so set forth, thou with thy family, in a watch of the night, and
let not anyone of you turn round, excepting thy wife; surely she shall
be smitten what will smite them (your people). Their promised time is
the morning; is the morning not nigh?'
So when Our command came, We turned it uppermost nethermost, and
rained on it stones of baked clay, one on another, marked with thy
Lord, and never far from the evildoers.[2]
Analysis of the Account of Lot in the Qur’an.
According to the Qur'an Lot was the first who believed in the Prophet
Abraham and then left his city Chaleada to Palestine and remained in
Sodom. People of that city were idolaters and had a very bad habit,
that is, they would leave their women and have sex with boys. Lot was
assigned to guide them and prevent them of such evil deed. But his
efforts had no result, then he informed them of coming upon them a
chastisement But the people of Lot said: "Then bring us the
chastisement of God, if thou speakest truly".
Then they threaten Lot and said: "If thou givest not over, Lot, thou
shalt assuredly be one of the expelled. Anyhow, Lot's efforts had no
result and the chastisement of God came upon them. As narrated, first
the angels came to the Prophet Abraham. The Prophet did not know that
they were angels, thus he prepared flood for them. But they refrained
from taking food hence, he was suspicious of them and conceived a fear
of them. They said, 'fear not; we have been sent to the people of
Lot.' We give a good tiding of a child for you and your wife. Then
they came to Lot and said, set forth, thou with thy family, in a watch
of the night, and let not any one of you turn round, excepting thy
wife. The following points can be drawn from this story of the Qur'
an:
The messengers were angels, therefore they refused to take food.
The Prophets are infallible and God always help them in their
problems.
In the Qur'an Prophets are described by respectful expressions and
reverent attributes.
Every thing is known to God and He has dominance over all human deeds
Concluded that there are a lot of differences between the Qur’anic
approach towards this story and that of the Torah and it is wrong to
say that the Qur'an has taken its stories from the Bible and Torah.
The Qur'an is God's words and is free from any wrong expression.
http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_torah.htm
FACE
Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com>, wrote
>>On the one hand, Lot knew who his guests were (see Genesis 19.1 & .2), on
>>the other hand, he knew that the mob did not want his daughters.
>
>I don't see any evidence Lot knew who they were until they struck the mob
>with blindness.
of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself
with his face toward the ground;
19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords.....
Nope, no evidence there................
I guess this sort of supplication and form of greeting was just average
for the times..... ;-)
• R. L. Measures.
children ?
> oh well good thing it's just a myth.
>But no wonder Christians who believe it is literal are so fucked up.
regrets."
---Arthur Charles Clarke
• R. L. Measures.
� R. L. Measures.
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 16:13:31 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>
>>In article <0og397li4lk58olo8...@4ax.com>, duke
>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:29:49 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>>>>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
� Definitely not but even Sodom and Gomorrah was not thanks to the Lots.
FACE
<arah...@gmail.com>, wrote
>On Oct 8, 6:41 pm, FACE <AFaceInTheCr...@today.net> wrote:
>>
>> Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
>> confused about it all.
>
>
>Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him really recognize the Bible as
>an error-free book?
>
>
>First of all, it is important to know that if the "Bibles" of today,
>with all their versions and differences in the quantity of their
>"books" and "gospels", were in fact the Original Holy Word of GOD
>Almighty, then there would be no need for the Noble Quran. But since
>they are corrupt, then we obviously can't consider them as GOD
>Almighty's Holy and Divine Words.
>
>The Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Bible. Allah
>Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam
>is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood
>and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the
>Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it.
>Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that
>has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:
From your book, your allah, in sura 10, aya 94, Yusuf Ali translation:
~~~~
"If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask
those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath
indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."
~~~~
It says "the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord" and actually
equates the bible with the koran in the inclusive "the Book".
What allah says, in essence, is that if you have a question about the
koran, ask the Christians and the Jews about it, since they already know.
There is more where allah verifies the truth of the taurant and injeel,
but it is more complex than i am going to try here.
duke
Right, but not man on boy.
duke
>In article <rmo597t26a36cqovo...@4ax.com>, duke
><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 16:13:31 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <0og397li4lk58olo8...@4ax.com>, duke
>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:29:49 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>>>>>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
Thanks to the Lots??
duke
>On Oct 9, 6:52�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> You don't know the story of Lot, do you.
>The Account of Lot in the Torah.
Wow, you can cut and paste. But do you know the story of Lot?
• R. L. Measures.
� R. L. Measures.
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:33:44 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>
>>In article <rmo597t26a36cqovo...@4ax.com>, duke
>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 16:13:31 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <0og397li4lk58olo8...@4ax.com>, duke
>>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:29:49 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>>>>>>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"• R. L. Measures." wrote in message
� The Lot family was heterosexual.
duke
>In article <vcl697p4q78vb3i45...@4ax.com>, duke
><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:33:44 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <rmo597t26a36cqovo...@4ax.com>, duke
>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 16:13:31 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <0og397li4lk58olo8...@4ax.com>, duke
>>>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:29:49 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <XP2dneMkzadqnA3T...@westnet.com.au>, "Seon
>>>>>>>Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
� R. L. Measures.
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:50:21 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>
>>In article <vcl697p4q78vb3i45...@4ax.com>, duke
>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:33:44 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <rmo597t26a36cqovo...@4ax.com>, duke
>>>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Yes, but so is sacrificing your virgin daughters to the mob.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>� That mob would never have laid a finger on the girls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>AMEN!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>� I have never heard of a woman being raped in West Hollywood.
>>>>>
>>>>>Is West Hollywood 100% queer?
>>>>>
>>>>� Definitely not but even Sodom and Gomorrah was not thanks to the Lots.
>>>
>>>Thanks to the Lots??
>>>
>>� The Lot family was heterosexual.
>
>Yes, exactly.
>
� So Lot was just just having fun with the perves ?
ARAH
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:59 -0700 (PDT), in uk.religion.islam, arah
> >On Oct 8, 6:41 pm, FACE <AFaceInTheCr...@today.net> wrote:
>
> >> Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
> >> confused about it all.
>
> >Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him really recognize the Bible as
> >an error-free book?
Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam
is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood
and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the
Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it.
Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that
has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:
FACE
<arah...@gmail.com>, wrote
>On Oct 10, 7:43 pm, FACE <AFaceInTheCr...@today.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:59 -0700 (PDT), in uk.religion.islam, arah
>> <arah1...@gmail.com>, wrote
>>
>> >On Oct 8, 6:41 pm, FACE <AFaceInTheCr...@today.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> Yes and no. Muhammad, founder and CEO of Islam, Inc., was terribly
>> >> confused about it all.
>>
>> >Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him really recognize the Bible as
>> >an error-free book?
>The Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Bible. Allah
>Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine.
>>
>>~~~~
>>"If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask
>>those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath
>>indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."
>>~~~~
>>It says "the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord" and actually
>>equates the bible with the koran in the inclusive "the Book".
>>
>>What allah says, in essence, is that if you have a question about the
>>koran, ask the Christians and the Jews about it, since they already know.
>>
>>There is more where allah verifies the truth of the taurant and injeel,
>>but it is more complex than i am going to try here.
the torah "I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
"Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
Dawud :: Book 38 : Hadith 4434
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)
to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a
woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the
Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the
Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him
and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who
revealed thee.
He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was
brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of
stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431)."
That appears to reference Malik's Muwatta, but i am not going to look it
up.
FACE
duke
that the perves wanted the visitors to be turned over to them for sex, he
offered his daughters (knowing they were not interested) because he feared God's
wrath for turning his visitors over to the perves.
The dukester, American-American
*****
Romans 1:16-17
It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes:
for Jew first, then Greek. For in it is revealed the righteousness
of God from faith to faith; as it is written, "The one who is
righteous by faith will live."
*****
vince garcia
until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and
trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew
hiding behind me--come and kill him!'
--from the Hadith
• R. L. Measures.
duke
God was watching.
� R. L. Measures.
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
� Behold - the lust for boy butt.
duke
Lot sure fooled the queers.
arah
> Well, I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what he was doing. But knowing
> that the perves wanted the visitors to be turned over to them for sex, he
> offered his daughters (knowing they were not interested) because he feared God's
> wrath for turning his visitors over to the perves.
Story of Lot(P.B.U.H) in Quran
Prophet Abraham (PBUH) left Egypt accompanied by his nephew Lut
(PBUH), who then went to the city of Sodom (Sadum), which was on the
western shore of the Dead Sea.
This city was filled with evil. Its residents waylaid, robbed and
killed travelers. Another common evil among them was that men had sex
with men instead of with women. This unnatural act later became known
as sodomy (after the city of Sodom). It was practiced openly and
unashamedly.
It was at the height of these crimes and sins that Allah revealed to
Prophet Lut (PBUH) that he should summon the people to give up their
indecent behavior, but they were so deeply sunk in their immoral
habits that they were deaf to Lot’s preaching. Swamped in their
unnatural desires, they refused to listen, even when Lot warned them
of Allah’s punishment. Instead, they threatened to drive him out of
the city if he kept on preaching.
Allah the Almighty revealed: The people of Lot (those dwelt in the
towns of Sodom in Palestine) belied the Messengers when their brother
Lot said to them:
“Will you not fear Allah and obey Him? Verily! I am a trustworthy
Messenger to you. SO fear Allah, keep your duty to Him, and obey me.
No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message of Islamic Monotheism) my
reward is only from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that
exists). Go you in unto the males of the Alamin (mankind), and leave
those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a
trespassing people!”
They said: “If you cease not, O Lot! Verily, you will be one of those
who are driven out!”
He said: “I am indeed, of those who disapprove with severe anger and
fury your (this evil) action (of sodomy). My Lord! Save me and my
family from what they do.”
So We saved him and his family, all except an old woman (his wife)
among those who remained behind. [Ch 26:160-171 Quran]
The doings of Lot’s people saddened his heart. Their unwholesome
reputation spread throughout the land, while he struggled against
them. As the years passed, he persisted in his mission but to no
avail. No one responded to his call and believed except for the
members of his family, and even in his household, not all the members
believed. Lot’s wife, like Noah’s wife, a disbeliever.
Allah the Almighty declared:
Allah set forth an example for those who disbelieve, the wife of Noah
and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous slaves, but
they both betrayed their (husbands, by rejecting their doctrines) so
they (Noah & Lut) benefited them (their respective wives) not, against
Allah, and it was said:
“Enter the Fire along with those who enter!” [Ch 66:10 Quran]
If home is the place of comfort and rest, then Lut found none, for he
was tormented both inside and outside his home. His life was
continuous torture and he suffered greatly, but he remained patient
and steadfast with his people. The years rolled by, and still not one
believed in him. Instead, they belittled his message and mockingly
challenged him: “Bring Allah’s Torment upon us if you are one of the
truthful!” [Ch 29:29 Quran].
Overwhelmed with despair, Lot prayed to Allah to grant him victory and
destroy the corrupt. Therefore, the angels left Abraham (pbuh) and
headed for Sodom the town of Lut (pbuh). They reached the walls of the
town in the afternoon. The first person who caught sight of them was
Lot’s daughter, who was sitting beside the river, filling her jug with
water. When she lifted her face and saw them, she was stunned that
there could be men of such magnificent beauty on earth.
One of the three men (angels) asked her: “O maiden, is there a place
to rest?”
Remembering the character of her people she replied, “Stay here and do
not enter until I inform my father and return.” Leaving her jug by the
river, she swiftly ran home.
“O father!” she cried. “You are wanted by young men at the town gate
and I have never before seen the like of their faces!”
Lot felt distressed as he quickly ran to his guests. He asked them
where they came from and where they were going.
They did not answer his questions. Instead they asked if he could host
them. He started talking with them and impressed upon them the subject
of his people’s nature. Lot was filled with turmoil; he wanted to
convince his guests without offending them, not to spend the night
there, yet at the same time he wanted to extend to them the expected
hospitality normally accorded to guests. In vain he tried to make them
understand the perilous situation. At last, therefore, he requested
them to wait until the night fell, for then no one would see them.
When darkness fell on the town, Lot escorted his guest to his home. No
one was aware of their presence. However, as soon as Lot’s wife saw
them, she slipped out of the house quietly so that no one noticed her.
Quickly, she ran to her people with the news and it spread to all the
inhabitants like wildfire. The people rushed towards Lot quickly and
excitedly. Lot was surprised by their discovery of his guests. and he
wondered who could have informed them. The matter became clear,
however, when he could not find his wife, anywhere, thus adding grief
to his sorrow.
When Lot saw the mob approaching his house, he shut the door, but they
kept on banging on it. He pleaded with them to leave the visitors
alone and fear Allah’s punishment. He urged them to seek sexual
fulfillment with their wives, for that is what Allah had made lawful.
Lot’s people waited until he had finished his short sermon, and then
they roared with laughter. Blinded by passion, they broke down the
door. Lot became very angry, but he stood powerless before these
violent people. He was unable to prevent the abuse of his guests, but
he firmly stood his ground and continued to plead with the mob.
At that terrible moment, he wished he had the power to push them away
from his guests. Seeing him in a state of helplessness, and grief the
guests said: “Do not be anxious or frightened, Lot for we are angels,
and these people will not harm you.”
On hearing this, the mob was terrified and fled from Lot’s house,
hurling threats at him as they left. The angels warned Prophet Lut
(pbuh) to leave his house before sunrise, taking with him all his
family except his wife.
Allah had decreed that the city of Sodom should perish. An earthquake
rocked the town. It was as if a mighty power had lifted the entire
city and flung it down in one jolt. A storm of stones rained on the
city. Everyone and everything was destroyed, including Lot’s wife.
Allah the Almighty recounted this story: And tell them about the
guests (angels) of Abraham. When they entered unto him, and said:
“Salaaman (peace)!” Abraham said: “Indeed! We are afraid of you.”
They (the angels) said: “Do not be afraid! We give you glad tidings of
a boy (son) possessing much knowledge and wisdom.” (Abraham) said: “Do
you give me glad tidings (of a son) when old age has overtaken me? Of
what then is your news?” They (the angels) said: “We give you glad
tidings in truth. SO be not of the despairing.”
Abraham said: “And who despairs of the Mercy of his Lord except those
who are astray?” (Abraham again) said: “What then is the business on
which you have come, O Messengers?”
They (the angels) said: “We have been sent to a people who are
Mujrimeen (criminals, disbeliveers, polytheists, sinners). (All)
except the family of Lot. Them all we are surely going to save (from
destruction).”
Except his wife, of whom We have decreed that she shall be of the
those who remain behind (she will be destroyed).
Then when the Messengers (the angels) came unto the family of Lot, he
said: “Verily! You are people unknown to me.” They said: “Nay! we have
come to you with that (torment) which they have been doubting. And we
have brought to you the truth (the news of the destruction of your
nation) and certainly, we tell the truth. Then travel in a part of the
night with your family, and you go behind them in the rear, and let no
one amongst you look back, but go on to where you are ordered.”
And We made known this decree to him, that the root of those (sinners)
was to be cut off in the early morning
The inhabitants of the city came rejoicing (at the news of the young
men’s arrival). Lot said: “Verily! These are my guests, so shame me
not. And fear Allah and disgrace me not.” They (people of the city)
said: “Did we not forbid you to entertain (or protect) any of the
Alamin (people, foreigners strangers etc) from us?” Lot said: “These
(the girls of the nation) are my daughters to marry lawfully) if you
must act so.”
“Verily, by your life (O Muhammad), in their wild intoxication they
were wandering blindly. So As Saliha (torment, awful cry etc) overtook
them at the time of sunrise; and We turned (the towns of Sodom in
Palestine) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay.
Surely! In this are signs for those who see (or understand or learn
the lessons from the Signs of Allah). And verily! They (the cities)
are right on the highroad (from Mecca to Syria, i.e. the place where
the Dead Sea is now). Surely! Therein is indeed a sign for the
believers.” [Ch 15:51-77 Quran]
Allah the Exalted also declared: So we saved him and his family, all,
except an old woman (his wife) among those who remained behind. Then
afterward We destroyed the others. We rained on them a rain of
torment. How evil was the rain of those who had been warned. Verily,
in this is indeed a sign yet most of them are not believers. Verily!
Your Lord, He is indeed the All Mighty, the Most Merciful. [Ch
26:170-175 Quran]
The book was closed on the people of Lot (pbuh). Their towns and names
have been erased from the face of the earth. Gone are they from
memory. One book was closed of the books of corruption.
Lot (pbuh) proceeded towards Abraham (pbuh). He visited him, and when
he recounted the story of his people, he was surprised to learn that
Abraham (pbuh) already knew. So Lut (pbuh) continued to invite people
to Allah, as did Abraham (pbuh), the patient one who turned to Allah
repentantly, and the two held firm to their mission.
Story of Lot(P.B.U.H) in Bible::
Lot is a character from the Book of Genesis chapters 11-14 and 19, in
the Hebrew Bible. Notable episodes in his life include his travels
with his uncle Abram (Abraham, the Patriarch of Israel); his flight
from the Kingdom of Sodom, in the course that Lot’s wife looked back
and turned into a pillar of salt; and the seduction by his daughters
so that they could bear children.
The Biblical stories of drunkenness and incest attributed to Lot are
absent in the Qur’an. In Islamic tradition, they are rejected by
Muslims and Lot is venerated as a Prophet of Islam. Christians are
reminded by Apostle Peter that Lot was a righteous man.
Fleeing Sodom
An account of Lot from Genesis 19:1-29
It had been 24 years later, after leaving the Haran Settlement, that
Abram’s Lord changed his name to Abraham.[Genesis 17] After the
covenant was made between Abraham and his Lord, divine judgement of
Sodom and Gomorrah ensued. Two angels who took the form of physical
men, so that anyone around could see them, were sent by Abraham’s Lord
to confirm the destruction of Sodom.[Genesis 18:20-22]
Genesis 19 points to this period when Lot and his family were dwelling
within the city walls of Sodom. Lot was approached by “the Two Men” at
the city gate, aware that they were sent by God. He insisted that they
stay the night at his home even though “the two” wanted to stay at
“the square”.
That night, after supper, just before bedtime, men of the city rallied
up around Lot’s house demanding to have same-sex intercourse with his
guests.
Lot objected, by offering up his virgin daughters to them to do with
as they pleased even though they were already matrimonially spoken
for. His response infuriated the inhabitants because they didn’t want
an alien resident judging them accordingly. Then before they could
break into the house, the angels struck the intruders with blindness.
This allowed a small window of opportunity for Lot to make
preparations for him and his loved ones to leave. (Genesis 19:3-14)
Before dawn arrives, ready or not, they had to leave. Lot expressed
some hesitancy about leaving, but the angels grabbed the hands of Lot,
his wife and two daughters, and brought them out of the city limits
giving the orders:”Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t
stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept
away!” (Genesis 19:16,17)
Initially, Lot was opposed to fleeing to the mountains, so he
adamantly requested to take refuge in the small town of Zoar, just
beyond Sodom’s city limits. Granted his request, while they were in
route, in the middle of the night, Lot’s wife turned looking back at
Sodom disregarding the angel’s order and thus was turned into a pillar
of salt.(Genesis 19:18-26)
As soon as Lot and his daughters made it to Zoar, at daybreak, the
heavens opened up raining down fire and sulfur upon the cities of
Sodom and Gomorrah until they were completely and utterly destroyed,
including all surrounding properties.[v.23-25]
Even from where Abraham was, in an elevated region, he could see the
dense smoke billowing up into the heavens from the ruined cities.
Continue reading
http://answeringchristian.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/story-of-lot-pbuh-in-quran-and-bible/
• R. L. Measures.
to Lot's house and created a great commotion.
duke
>On Oct 12, 3:06 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Well, I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what he was doing. But knowing
>> that the perves wanted the visitors to be turned over to them for sex, he
>> offered his daughters (knowing they were not interested) because he feared God's
>> wrath for turning his visitors over to the perves.
>
>Just trying to show the difference from both books.!
arah
... And Moses wasn't without sin as well. Moses
killed half of the Israelites just because they got fed up of waiting
for
him and worshiped a golden calf....
My dear Seon Ferguson
Are you sure Moses killed those who worship the Calf?
Moses could not believe his eyes, even though God had just warned him
that a severe punishment was about to befall his people for
worshipping the golden calf. Moses heart was filled with shame and
anger. His own people had witnessed the power and majesty of God yet
they acted belligerently and without fear of God’s punishment.
“God said, “Verily! We have tried your people in your absence, and As-
Samiri has led them astray.” Then Moses returned to his people in a
state of anger and sorrow. He said, “O my people! Did not your Lord
promise you a fair promise? Did then the promise seem to you long in
coming? Or did you desire the Wrath should descend from your Lord on
you, so you broke your promise to me (disbelieving in God and
worshipping the calf)?” (Quran 20:83-86)
Moses turned to his brother Aaron; he was angry and grabbed him by the
beard, at the same time he pulled Aaron towards him by the head. He
bellowed at his brother demanding that Aaron explain why he disobeyed
the instructions he had given him, and why he allowed As Samiri to
beguile the Children of Israel. Aaron explained that the people did
not listen to him, and were about to kill him. He appealed to Moses
not to let the idolaters separate them. Aaron was not as strong and
as forceful as his brother and he feared that he would not be able to
control the Children of Israel so he waited for his brother Moses to
return.
God’s promise is true and His punishment was swift. Moses confronted
As Samiri and sent him into exile.
“Moses said, go away! And verily, your punishment in this life will
be that you will say, ‘Touch me not’ (you will live alone exiled away
from humankind); and verily (for a future torment), you have a promise
that will not fail. And look at your god, to which you have been
devoted. We will certainly burn it, and scatter its particles in the
sea.” (Quran 20:83-98)
The punishment imposed upon the idol worshippers was severe.
“Remember when Moses said to his people: “O my people! Verily, you
have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in
repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves (the innocent kill the
wrong doers among you), that will be better for you in the Sight of
your Creator.” Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the
One who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:54)
God is the Most Merciful and is forgiving. After the Children of
Israel had purged themselves and killed the idol worshippers among
them, God accepted their repentance. Even after their continuous
belligerence and stubbornness, the Children of Israel once again felt
God’s favor upon them.
Moses then chose 70 men from amongst the most pious elders of the
Children of Israel. He returned with them to Mount Tur. They were a
delegation intending to apologise to God for their behaviour. They
stood back while Moses moved into a low-lying cloud to speak with God
while the elders waited. When he came back to them, instead of
feeling repentant and apologising the elders informed Moses that they
would not truly follow him until they had seen God with their own
eyes.
“O Moses! We shall never believe in you till we see God
plainly.” (Quran 2:35)
The ground shook and the seventy men were struck by a lightening
bolt. They fell to the ground dead. Moses was astounded. He
immediately wondered what he would say to the Children of Israel.
These seventy men were the best of people; Moses felt that now the
Children of Israel had no hope. He turned to God.
“O my Lord, if it had been Your Will, You could have destroyed them
and me before; would You destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones
among us? It is only Your trial by which You lead astray whom You
will, and keep guided whom You will. You are our Protector, so
forgive us and have Mercy on us, for You are the best of those who
forgive. And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter.
Certainly we have turned unto You.” He said (as to) My Punishment I
afflict therewith whom I will and My Mercy embraces all things. That
(Mercy) I shall ordain for those who are the pious and give alms; and
those who believe in our signs.” (Quran 7:155-157)
God is indeed the Most Merciful and His mercy embraces all things.
When Moses beseeched God He raised up the seventy dead elders. For
many years the Children of Israel wandered about in the desert and
wastelands. Prophet Moses suffered greatly at their hands. He
endured mutiny, belligerence, ignorance, and idolatry, they even
inflicted personal harm upon him. He suffered purely for the sake of
pleasing God. After many years Prophet Aaron died, so Moses was
finally without his greatest supporter. Still he remained steadfast;
still he remained in the wilderness never quite reaching the Promised
land. Moses died, still surrounded by the belligerent Children of
Israel. Still surrounded by people who refused to see the miracles
before their eyes, yet God in His Mercy continued to give them chance
after chance.
From the traditions of Prophet Muhammad, may God praise him, comes the
account of Prophet Moses’ death. “The Angel of Death was sent to
Moses. When he arrived Moses punched him in the eye. The Angel
returned to his Lord and said, ‘You have sent me to a slave who does
not want to die.’ God said, ‘Return to him and tell him to put his
hand on the back of an ox and for every hair that will come under it,
he will be granted one year of life.’ Moses said, ‘O Lord! What will
happen after that?’ God replied, ‘then death.’ Moses said, ‘Let it
come now!’ Moses then requested God to let him die close to the Holy
Land so that he would be at a distance of a stone’s throw from it.”[1]
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3453/
• R. L. Measures.
>On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:58:22 -0700 (PDT), arah <arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Oct 12, 3:06 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Well, I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what he was doing. But knowing
>>> that the perves wanted the visitors to be turned over to them for sex, he
>>> offered his daughters (knowing they were not interested) because he
feared God's
>>> wrath for turning his visitors over to the perves.
>>
>>Just trying to show the difference from both books.!
>
>Can't you do it in a couple of sentences.
>
since Lot knew that gay guys would never stick theirs in anything but a
cute boy.
• R. L. Measures.
<5b0e0fc5-1821-4956...@e37g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, arah
<arah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Oct 10, 5:35=A0am, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>... And Moses wasn't without sin as well. Moses
> killed half of the Israelites just because they got fed up of waiting
>for
> him and worshiped a golden calf....
>
>My dear Seon Ferguson
>
>Are you sure Moses killed those who worship the Calf?
>
>Moses could not believe his eyes, even though God had just warned him
>that a severe punishment was about to befall his people for
<snip>
€€ any god who gets tight jaws because a bunch if messuganiks are
worshiping a golden calf makes me laugh.
duke
duke
• R. L. Measures.
>On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 04:37:22 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.) wrote:
>
>>In article <8k8g979ku646fr75b...@4ax.com>, duke
>><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Yes, exactly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>• So Lot was just just having fun with the perves ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well, I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what he was doing. But
>>knowing
>>>>>>>that the perves wanted the visitors to be turned over to them for sex, he
>>>>>>>offered his daughters (knowing they were not interested) because he
>>>>>>feared God's
>>>>>>>wrath for turning his visitors over to the perves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>• Lot was not in contol of the proceedings.
>>>>>
>>>>>God was watching.
>>>>>
>>>>• Behold - the lust for boy butt.
>>>
>>>Lot sure fooled the queers.
>
>>• Lot was a bistander when those two guys with apparently cute butts came
>>to Lot's house and created a great commotion.
>
>Lot knew that homos were evil to God.
>
did not happily release anxiety-relieving gamma amino benzoic acid into
the brain. However, since there are women who have educated finers who
tickle the prostate during coitus in order to insure maximal delivery of
the goods, perhaps the Creator of humans does not deserve all of the blame
for the gay guy buttrmming game ?