Roman Catholicism is a false religion
Bob Cross
General Notes
- "... Rome's false religion is worse than no religion because Rome
substitutes religion for truth. ... Hinduism is so parallel to Romanism [as
to the common idolatry] that many Hindus can become Catholics and not need
to give up Hinduism. ..." (3/1/91, Calvary Contender). During the past fifty
years, at least three important trends in the Roman Catholic Church are
clearly observable. These are: (1) a greater emphasis upon the place of
Mary; (2) the acceptance of the so-called Charismatic renewal within the
Church with new emphasis upon the claimed "ministry of the Holy Spirit"; and
(3) a major emphasis upon ecumenical activities with a view to seeking the
full visible unity of all religions. Concerning the latter item, the 3/97
C.E.C. Journal had an ad from the 3/96 New Covenant (Franciscan University,
Steubenville, Ohio). It read (emphasis theirs):
"The Holy Father has a sweeping vision for the new millennium: a Church
HEALED of division, BOUND together by love, and celebrating a Eucharistic
unity ... See how Mary, the Mother of Mercy, is leading the Church into the
third millennium."
- The long-held claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the only
unchangeable church is not supported by church history -- not even Roman
Catholic history. How sad to realize that this false claim influenced so
many to join or to stay in this false church, which actually is the product
of centuries of changes. Most of these changes resulted from the Roman
Catholic Church's yielding to heathen customs and practices that were
subsequently incorporated into Roman Catholic teachings and worship. The
following is a partial list of heathen, unscriptural practices that became a
part of Roman Catholic dogma over a period of seventeen centuries. Some of
the dates given are approximate. In many cases, these heresies were even
debated for years before being given the status of required beliefs.
Although some of these heresies are now being questioned by many individuals
inside and outside the Roman Catholic Church, none have been officially
repudiated and all continue to be practiced by millions of Catholics around
the world (Source: "The Truth About Roman Catholicism," September-October
1996, Foundation magazine, pp. 5-16.):
1. Prayers for the dead -- 300 AD
2. Making the sign of the cross -- 300 AD
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints -- 375 A.D
4. Use of images in worship -- 375 A D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration -- 394 AD
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at
Council of Ephesus -- 431 AD.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) -- 526 AD
8. Doctrine of Purgatory (Gregory I) -- 593 AD
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints -- 600 AD
10. Worship of cross, images & relics -- 786 AD
11. Canonization of dead saints -- 995 AD
12. Celibacy of priesthood -- 1079 AD
13. The Rosary -- 1090 AD
14. Indulgences -- 1190 AD
15. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) -- 1215 AD
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest -- 1215 AD
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) -- 1220 AD
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion -- 1414 AD
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma -- 1439 AD
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed -- 1439 AD
21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent--
1545 AD
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible -- 1546 AD
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary -- 1854 AD
24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by
the Vatican Council -- 1870 AD
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly
after her death) -- 1950 AD
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Roman Catholic Church -- 1965 AD
- Rome has a long history of persecuting Protestants, not hesitating to put
to death all who oppose her. During the latter years of the Inquisitions, no
fewer than 900,000 Protestants were put to death in the pope's war to
exterminate the Waldenses (1450-1570). In the Netherlands, over 100,000 were
massacred. In St. Bartholomew's Massacre (August 24, 1572, lasting for five
or six days), approximately 50,000 Huguenots were killed; in the Huguenot
Wars, 200,000 perished as martyrs, and another 500,000 fled for their lives.
In Bohemia, a country with a population of four million by the year 1600,
3.2 million of which were Protestant, only the 800,000 Catholics were left
alive by the time the Hapsburgs and Jesuits were through. The list of
Catholic burnings and torture of Protestants is almost endless. (Reported in
the 3/1/91, Calvary Contender.)
Actually there were three Inquisitions. The first was to suppress people
like the Catharists by both church and state between 1231 and 1400. Pope
Innocent IV authorized the use of torture in 1251, and religious leaders
were quite forward in their participation. The second was the Roman
Inquisition established by Pope Paul III in 1542 to defeat Protestantism,
and continued until 1572. The torture used was so notorious that even the
Turks and Saracens were repulsed by what they observed to be "Christian"
barbarity. The third was "The" Inquisition. Pope Sixtus IV issued a bull in
1578 authorizing Roman Catholic kings to establish what they called the
"Tribunal of the Holy Office." By 1500, the Inquisition had extended to the
New World, especially Peru and Mexico. Countless lives were snuffed out,
often without cause. Catholic friars reportedly would baptize babies and
children and throw them to starving dogs. All totalled, the Inquisitions
claimed 68 million victims!
Yet Rome, never noted for her toleration, has never acknowledged her sin of
killing these Protestants -- calling Protestants "separated brethren" is
just an accommodation to gain acceptance. Rome would like to whitewash it
out of history. Indeed, she has been quite successful at doing so. The blame
for such atrocities has now been shifted from Roman Catholic religious
leaders to the state. But it must be remembered that the state was
controlled by the religious leaders! During the Tribulation, with Rome back
in power as the religious authority in the world, we can expect additional
Inquisition-like outbreaks of terror. (Sources: J.B. Wilder, The Other Side
of Rome, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, p. 153; and 2/94,
Mission to Catholics CHALLENGER, pp. 1-2.)
- Some reports have stated that the Pope has apologized for the Catholic
Church's persecution of the saints. This is only a half truth. While the
Pope has uttered some regrets of sorts, referring to certain "weaknesses"
and "mistakes" and "harmful acts" of the past, he has not plainly admitted
that the Roman Church has butchered millions of humble Christians, and he
has not plainly apologized for Rome's bloody history. He has not
acknowledged that the Roman papacy has been one of the bloodiest and most
inhumane institutions in human history. He has not acknowledged that the
papacy, through its blasphemous claims and sacramental gospel, has led
multitudes to eternal Hell. In a 5/96 encyclical, for example, Pope John
Paul II refers to certain "painful recollections" which some Protestants
have in regard to the history of the papacy. He then says, "To the extent
that we are responsible for these, I join my predecessor Paul VI in asking
forgiveness." Is that a genuine apology over Rome's bloody history? No, it
isn't. He cleverly leaves it up to his hearers to decide to what extent Rome
is responsible for any "painful recollections." That is a sorry excuse of an
apology for one who sits in the seat of the men who were responsible for the
murder and torment of MILLIONS of humble, Bible-believing children of God.
What would the Bible require of the Pope if he were truly to repent of
Rome's error? Repentance means a change of mind which results in a change of
action. In the Pope's case, this would involve a great many things. A
repentant Pope would cast aside his blasphemous position and titles in fear
and trembling. Instead of "holy father" he would desire to be called "lowly
sinner." A repentant Pope would reject heretical Roman Catholic dogmas such
as the Mass, the Priesthood, the Sacraments, and the intercession of Mary
and the Saints. He would reject the damnable sacramental gospel of Rome
(Galatians 1:6-9) and joyfully confess that salvation is the free gift of
God to everyone that believeth (Romans 1:16,17; 3:23-25; 10:9-13) and that
eternal life is the present possession of every child of God (1 John
5:11-13). (Source: David Cloud, 5/16/96, FBIS.)
- Mexico is another case in point concerning Catholicism's lack of
toleration of non-Catholic faiths -- Mexico is over 90% Catholic and the
Roman Catholic hierarchy is generally hostile toward evangelicals. A large
Pentecostal denomination was notified in March of 1991 that all churches not
registered with the government would be closed within three months; in one
Pentecostal group, over 30 churches were closed due to threats of violence
by radically-minded Catholics. Two evangelicals were also stoned to death by
Catholics. As has occurred throughout history, "ecumenical" Roman
Catholicism shows a different face when it is in the majority. (Reported in
the 7/1/91, Calvary Contender.)
- The Roman Catholic hierarchy is pressuring Nicaragua's public schools to
use textbooks which promote Catholicism and which blame racial tension and
other societal problems on Protestants. The textbooks are produced by the
Catholic archdiocese of Managua. A textbook for fourth grade of secondary
school has a picture of Pope John Paul II on the cover and warns Protestants
not to criticize Catholic devotion to the Virgin Mary: "To scorn Mary is an
absurdity, something only the devil can incite," the textbook states. "Be
careful, Protestant brothers. You're playing with fire. If you want to
increase your numbers by misleading unprepared Catholics, don't mess with
Mary, the Mother of Jesus and our mother. It's something serious for which
you'll pay heavily." (Ecumenical News International, 4/28/97).
- "To deny that Roman Catholicism is a cult is to repudiate the reformation
and mock the millions of martyrs who died at Rome's hands. ... The 'Christ'
of Roman Catholicism is just as false as its 'Mary' -- as much 'another
Jesus' as that of Mormonism or any other cult" (June 1991, CIB Bulletin).
Yet charismatic and neo-evangelical cult "experts" continue to omit Roman
Catholicism from their lists of cults, and even explicitly approve it (e.g.,
Walter Martin's Christian Research Institute; Josh McDowell's Understanding
the Cults; J. Oswald Sander's Cults and Isms; and J.I. Packer, who calls
Catholics "brothers in Christ" and has signed the "Evangelicals and
Catholics Together" accords).
- A Roman Catholic pamphlet entitled, "A Pastoral Statement For Catholics
On Biblical Fundamentalism," is a warning from Catholic Bishops to Catholics
"who may be attracted to Biblical Fundamentalism without realizing its
serious weaknesses." It criticizes Fundamentalists for "rigid doctrinal and
ideological positions" and for interpreting the Bible to be literally true.
It says: "We do not look upon the Bible as an authority for science or
history." And: "The gospel comes to us through the Spirit-guided Tradition
of the [Catholic] Church and the inspired books. ... The Church produced the
New Testament, not vice versa." It said Fundamentalists "try to find in the
Bible all the direct answers for living. ... We look to both the Church's
official teaching (or magisterium) AND [our emphasis] Scripture for guidance
in addressing life's problems." The pamphlet emphasizes the necessity of the
seven sacraments, the "veneration of the Blessed Mother," etc. (4/1/95,
Calvary Contender).
In 1994, the Vatican officially criticized a literal interpretation of the
Bible and said the fundamentalist approach to Scripture was "a kind of
intellectual suicide." The document said fundamentalism "refuses to admit
that the inspired Word of God has been expressed in human language ... by
human authors possessed of limited capacities and resources." The 125-page
document, "The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church," was written by
the Pontifical Biblical Commission, a group of scholars who assist the pope
in the study of Scripture. "The fundamentalist approach is dangerous, for it
is attractive to people who look to the Bible for ready answers to the
problems of life," the document said. "Fundamentalism actually invites
people to a kind of intellectual suicide."
A source of further confusion for many is the fact that for centuries Roman
Catholics were taught that all those outside their membership were heretics
to be shunned, persecuted, or even killed. It was not until the middle of
this century that the Roman Catholic Church modified and softened its stand
by calling non-Catholics, "separated brethren." More recently, even that
negative connotation has been eliminated. Today, Catholics are taught to
consider "all Christians" to be "brothers and sisters in Christ." (Source:
"The Truth About Roman Catholicism," September-October 1996, Foundation
magazine, pp. 5-16.)
- The Bible contains much fiction, myth, and embellishments, says an
early-1997 issue of Notre Dame Magazine. The publication of the (Roman
Catholic) University of Notre Dame quotes various Notre Dame professors as
attacking such fundamental doctrines of historic Christianity as the deity
of Christ. The publication is in general agreement with the Roman Catholic
professors. Kerry Temple, managing editor of Notre Dame Magazine, claims
that the story of Jesus in the Bible "is more like poetry" than "a news
report or documentary film that presents historical events literally and
factually." Terry quotes Father Edward Schillebeeckx, a liberal Roman
Catholic theologian who rejects historic Christianity: "The New Testament is
the testimony of the believing people, and what they are saying is not
history but expressions of their belief in Jesus as Christ." She also quotes
Albert Schweitzer: "The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the
Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the
Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final
consecration never had any existence."
"Less credence is given to claims for other kinds of miracles. 'Anything
involving changes of nature,' says Notre Dame's John Collins, 'we are more
inclined to regard as theological fictions.' The purposes of these legends,
scholars believe, are to give insight into Jesus's teachings, to demonstrate
his supernatural powers, to affirm his divinity and to reinforce faith.
Among theologians today the consensus seems to be: Don't count on the
miracles to prove that Jesus was God. 'These nature miracles,' says Thomas
Sheehan in the highly controversial book The First Coming, 'are simply
legends which arose among early Christians and which were projected
backward, under the impact of faith, into the life of the historical
Jesus.'" (Source: "RC Publication and Professors Attack Deity of Christ,"
Christian News.)
- Pope John Paul II's devotion to Mary is without question. In 1984, he
dedicated the whole earth to Mary. His motto is "Mary, I'm all yours." In a
visit to Portugal in May of 1991, he attributed the fall of communism in
Europe to the intervention of the Virgin Mary of Fatima. He has also
credited her with saving his life in the 1981 assassination attempt.
Contrary to what some Catholics will publicly admit, they do continue to
pray to and worship Mary -- an 1854 papal decree (Pope Pius IX) on the
Immaculate Conception of Mary, that has never been revoked, states, "Let all
the children of the Catholic Church ... continue to venerate, invoke, and
pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God, conceived without
original sin." (Reported in the 7/15/91, Calvary Contender).
Moreover, in "The Holy Father's Prayer for the Marian Year [1987]," John
Paul II asks Mary to do what only God can do -- comfort, guide, strengthen,
and protect "the whole of humanity ..." His prayer ends: "Sustain us, O
Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal
salvation." What blasphemy to ask Mary to obtain what God offers freely by
His grace through Christ! (4/97, Berean Call). (For more on Mariology, see
the BDM sub-report.)
- Contrary to what many Catholics will publicly admit, Catholics do
continue to pray to the "patron saints" -- in fact, some of the causes
eliciting such prayer would be comical were it not tragic for those souls
caught up in it. For example, in preparing for an expected earthquake in
December, 1990, in the Saint Louis area, parishioners at St. Agatha Roman
Catholic Church turned to St. Agatha, "the patron saint of protection from
the devastation of volcanos, earthquakes, fire, and all kinds of violence."
The Church reported in the St. Louis Southwest City Journal of 10/21/90 that
a novena was to be held, including a recitation of the rosary, a prayer to
St. Agatha, and a closing benediction. (Reported in the November/December
1990, Foundation.)
Another example of the superstitious idolatry of Catholicism would be the
"good" Catholic's ritual for selling his home: Put a statue of St. Joseph in
a bottle or masonjar and bury it in the front yard (head first), thereby
guaranteeing a quick sale of the home. After the sale, the seller is to dig
up St. Joseph, put him in a prominent place in the new residence, and pray
to him (Mother Angelica, EWTN Catholic TV, 10/95).
- Pope John Paul II on his 10th African tour in 2/93, told about 75
"colorfully garbed voodoo worshippers [in Benin] that they would NOT have to
forsake all of their culture [nor their voodoo faith] in order to convert"
to Catholicism (2/13/93, World). The conciliatory pope noted that even as
Africans look to their ancestors as objects of worship, Catholics also
revere "ancestors in the faith, from the Apostles to the missionaries." "I
have never seen God, but today when I have seen the pope, I recognize that I
have seen the good God, who prays for all the voduns," said Sossa
Guedehoungue, head of Benin's vodun community. Voodoo leader Senou Zannou
gave a formal speech in which he announced his son was becoming a Roman
Catholic priest. But he also offered a defense of his faith: "God knows that
the vodun has nothing to do with the devil or Satan." (Africans passing from
Benin into slavery brought vodun worship to Haiti and Brazil, where it mixed
with Catholicism and came to be called voodoo.) Other instances of
Catholicism's cooperation with the occult and false religions:
(a) In 1986 in Assisi, Italy, John Paul II joined in a circle to pray and
meditate with snake handlers from Togo, shamans and tribal witchdoctors from
West Africa, Hindu gurus from India, Buddhist monks from Thailand, and
liberal protestant clergymen from Great Britain, as all joined hands in
"pray[ing] to their gods for 'peace'." The Pope also announced in Assisi
that there are "many paths to God." (Sources: Christian News in a reprint of
a 1993 article by Michael A. Hoffman in Researcher, Vol. 4, No. 3; and the
4/93, Flashpoint.)
(b) Again in 1986, in Fiji, "the Pope quaffed a potent island liquor,
accepted three whale's teeth and watched a spear dance during an ancient
welcoming ceremony dating back to when the Fijians practiced cannibalism.
... [Fijian tribal] chiefs handed the Pope a mud-colored, alcoholic drink
called kava [a drink condemned by early missionaries to Fiji as devil
worship] ... [which] he downed in a single gulp." At the Pope's next stop in
Auckland, New Zealand, 15 elders of the Maoris tribe pressed noses with the
Pope, "to exchange each other's breath, which is the life force." (Source:
11/22/86, Chicago Tribune.)
(c) Throughout Central and South America, Catholicism is in the most blatant
partnership with spiritism and paganism. In Brazil, Aparecida is the largest
cathedral in the world next to St. Peters in Rome. It is dedicated to a
small idol of a "Black Virgin" -- pulled from a nearby lake in a fishing
net -- that now performs "miracles." The Pope came to honor this idol in
1991. At the mass, the priest led the people in prayers and songs to the
idol, asking it for salvation and dedicating their lives to it. Aparecida's
large bookstore also carries many of the same "positive" books that delude
Protestants -- books in Portuguese by American authors, from Norman Vincent
Peale to "Christian psychologists." (Reported in the October 1991, CIB
Bulletin.)
(d) In his visit to Senegal in 1992 where, instead of calling the heathen
African religions by their proper and accurate name, Pope John Paul II
referred to "African customs" and urged Senegal's Roman Catholics to "strike
the right balance between African customs and church requirements." But
there is no "right balance" between truth and error -- they are mutually
exclusive. Yet the Pope said that the "blending of authentically African
fruits in union with the universal church was essential to the spread of
Catholicism on the continent." (Source: 4/93, Flashpoint.) [Contrast such
statements with the Word of God: "To the law and to the testimony: if they
speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them"
(Isa. 8:20). God says: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil..."
(Isa. 5:20). All idolatry is an abomination to God and needs to be
recognized as such. Of course, since the Roman Catholic Church actually
worships idols while claiming to be "Christian," it is understandable that
they will not rebuke heathen idolaters who make no profession of faith in
Christ.]
(e) On January 9-10, 1993, the Pope again hosted the Dalai Lama of Tibetan
Buddhism and representatives of many other false and ungodly religions. It
was an incredible sight to see these weird persons, "holy books" in hand,
all standing serenely, side-by-side with the Pope. In the 2/10/93 issue of
the official Vatican newspaper, L 'Osservatore Romano, the Pope said he
recognizes within the devil worship sect of Voodoo, "God's riches ... the
seed of the Word ... solidarity among believers ... for ... human
liberation." (Sources: Christian News in a reprint of a 1993 article by
Michael A. Hoffman in Researcher, Vol. 4, No. 3; and the 4/93, Flashpoint.)
[The whole testimony of the Bible is that consorting with such hellish works
is, in fact, the same as being in league with the devil. The Bible says we
are to have no spiritual fellowship with the false cults. The Pope says we
can. Those interested in a history of Voodoo and its curse upon the black
people of Africa for a thousand years, should read the 1989 book by former
high priest of African Voodoo Isaiah Oke, Blood Secrets: The True Story of
Demon Worship and Ceremonial Murder.]
(f) The Philippine Star of 8/25/94 reported that José Silva, founder of the
world-famous Silva Method, received the Special Apostolic Blessing bestowed
on him by Pope John Paul II on the occasion of his 80th birthday. Reports
reaching Silva International say the Vatican has given its approval to the
Silva training course. [See The Seduction of Christianity and the BDM report
on the Silva Method for an explanation of this heavily demonic occult
technique formerly known as Silva Mind Control.]
(g) Although it passed completely without notice in the U.S. press, a
bombshell that was dropped in Rome in November of 1996 continues to send
shockwaves that are being felt in political and religious circles worldwide.
The explosive charge was released by Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo in an
address to the Fatima 2000 International Congress on World Peace held in
Rome 11/18/96-11/23/96. Addressing an international audience of bishops,
priests, nuns, and laity, the archbishop charged that there are members of
the Catholic Church hierarchy in Rome who are secretly involved in formal
satanic worship. He accused fellow Roman Catholic clergymen of protecting
Satan and his minions:
"The devil in the Catholic Church is so protected now that he is like an
animal protected by the government; put on a game preserve that outlaws
anyone, especially hunters, from trying to capture or kill it. The devil
within the Church today is actually protected by certain Church authorities
from the official devil-hunter in the Church -- the exorcist. ... To the
question, 'Are there men of the curia who are followers of Satan?' Milingo
responded, 'Certainly there are priests and bishops. I stop at this level of
ecclesiastical hierarchy because I am an archbishop, higher than this I
cannot go.' Milingo cited papal statements to back up his charges. 'Paul VI
said that the smoke of Satan had entered into the Vatican.'" (Reported in
the 3/3/97, The New American.) [Archbishop Milingo, an exorcist, is the
author of the book, Face to Face With the Devil.]
(h) In a 4/3/91 letter written by Pope John Paul II, addressed to "my
beloved Muslim brothers and sisters," the Pope said, "I close my greeting to
you with the words of one of my predecessors Pope Gregory VII, who in 1076
wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria: 'We
believe in and confess one God, admittedly in a different way, and daily
praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and the ruler of this
world.'" The name Allah, was not invented by Muhammad, but was the name of a
pagan god, long known and worshiped in the Middle East. In pre-Islamic days,
Allah worship was on par with Baal worship, both originating in the Babylon
region and both being Astral religions: the Sun, Moon, and Stars were the
objects of worship. An Allah idol was one of some 360 idols in the Kabah,
the sacred building at Mecca, now containing the famous black stone, a place
of Islamic prayer and pilgrimages., the place to which the faithful turn to
pray, again not new to Islam, but a practice of very ancient origins. The
tribe into which Muhammad was born was devoted to the god Allah, Allah being
the personal name of the Moon god. That the Pope worships a god other than
the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ought not surprise us when one
considers that both Islam and Romanism come from the same Babylonian stock.
(Source: 8/94, Perilous Times.)
- The Catholic Church is teaming up with America's space agency to search
for extra-terrestrials. Jesuit priests who run the Vatican Observatory near
Rome say they are joining forces with the NASA agency to hunt for UFOs and
signs of life on planets in solar systems similar to Earth's. NASA's job
will be to monitor for "alien" communications signals; the Vatican, which
has helped to build a new reflector telescope in Tucson, Arizona, would
search for planets displaying conditions for life. "Father" George Coyne,
director of the Vatican Observatory, said that should intelligent alien life
be found, "the Church would be obliged to address the question of whether
extra-terrestrials might be brought within the fold and baptized." (Reported
in the 2/93, O Timothy.)
Similarly New Ageish in his celebrated book, Crossing The Threshold of Hope
(Knopf:1994), Pope John Paul II explains that "salvation and divinization"
are the "ultimate purpose" of man's life: "The divinization of man comes
from God" (p. l95). Likewise, the new universal Catechism of the Catholic
Church, quoting St. Athanasius and St. Thomas Aquinas, declares, "For the
Son of God became man so that we might become God. ... The only begotten Son
of God ... assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods"
(par 460).
- Pope John Paul II, in a 10/96 message to the Pontifical Academy of
Sciences, stated that the theory of evolution is more than a hypothesis and
that it must be taken seriously by Christians (Vatican Information Service,
10/23/96). In 1/97, after considerable heat on the Pope for his statement,
the Vatican news service issued a statement that it had "mistranslated" the
Pope's evolution statement, now saying that John Paul II said there is "more
than one hypothesis in the theory of evolution," not that evolution is "more
than a hypothesis" (World, 1/25/97). In light of the following statements by
this and other popes, as well as other official Roman Catholic
organizations, this explanation is not credible:
(a) The pope reminded the Academy that the Roman Catholic Church has long
given tentative approval to the theory of evolution. He cited a 1950 papal
encyclical entitled "Humani Generis" by Pius XII, which "considered the
doctrine of 'evolutionism' as a serious hypothesis, worthy of a more deeply
studied investigation and reflection on a par with the opposite hypothesis.
... Today, more than a half century after this encyclical, new knowledge
leads us to recognize in the theory of evolution more than a hypothesis. ...
The convergence, neither sought nor induced, of results of work done
independently one from the other, constitutes in itself a significant
argument in favor of this theory."
(b) In May 1982, honoring Charles Darwin on the 100th anniversary of his
death, the Vatican's Pontifical Academy of Sciences issued this statement:
"[M]asses of evidence render the application of the concept of evolution ...
beyond serious dispute" [Edward Daschbach, S.V.D., "Catholics and
Creationism," Visitor (Oct. 21, 1984)]. The New Catholic Encyclopedia says,
"[S]pecialists ... over a period of 100 years, have assembled the necessary
evidence ... evolution has been established as thoroughly as science can
establish facts ..." [New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 5 (McGraw-Hill, 1967),
p. 689]. To the contrary, the Apostle Paul says that sin entered the world
through Adam, and death by sin (Rom 5:12). If Adam and Eve had ancestors who
had lived and died during thousands (or millions) of years of evolution
until God humanized them, death would have operated on earth before Adam
sinned -- a clear contradiction of Genesis, of Christ's teaching, of Paul's
preaching, and of the gospel. (New York's Cardinal O'Connor says Adam and
Eve may have been "lower animals.")
(c) The pope attempts to reconcile the Bible with evolution by claiming that
while the world was made by the process of evolution, the soul of man was
"directly created by God." Pius XII described this theory in these words:
"If the origin of the human body is sought in living matter which existed
before it, the spiritual soul is directly created by God." This is an
impossible position. It is impossible to reconcile the modern theories of
evolution with the Biblical account of creation. If one is true, the other
is a myth. (Excerpted and/or adapted from the 2/97, Berean Call.)
Biblical Discernment Ministries - Revised 8/97
"Copyright BDM. All Rights Reserved"
Stephen Korsman
If only you had done a little research and gotten up to date on your history
and understanding of Catholic teaching, you might be able to make a sensible
argument. But, since you didn't, your article here is riddled with
historical errors and misrpresentations, so I guess it doesn't really
address Catholicism at all, only what YOU think Catholicism is. And since
you obviously don't understand Catholicism or know much history, I guess we
can dismiss this drivel as irrelevant to our lives as Christians.
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skor...@global.co.za
http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/index.html
For the sick and for the aged,
for our dear ones far away,
for the hearts that mourn in secret,
all who need our prayers today,
for the faithful gone before us,
may the Blessed Virgin pray.
- VSS Coles, 1845-1929
Bob Cross <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8vr9t0$1e6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Roman Catholicism
... drivel deleted ...
Bob Cross
"Stephen Korsman" <skor...@global.co.za> wrote in message
news:8vrcr7$gb1$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the inerrant
Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
Paula
And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
She has for me.
Paula
Bob Cross
"Paula" <spoc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3A213F...@bellsouth.net...
Bob
Stephen Korsman
That is found NOWHERE in the entire Bible. Which is why you couldn't
provide a text to back your claim up !!!
The Bible says Jesus is our only MEDIATOR (1 Tim 2:5), but instructs us ALL
to be intercessors. Eph 6:18, Rom 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 1:11.
Stephen Korsman
>
> "Paula" <spoc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3A213F...@bellsouth.net...
> > Bob Cross wrote:
> > >
> > She has for me.
> >
> > Paula
> And where does the Bible say that?
All Christians are commanded to be intercessors. Nowhere does the Bible say
Jesus is our only intercessor. It DOES tell us that he is our only
MEDIATOR, something completely different, as I am sure you know.
But at least we have witnessed that a) you don't have a clue what
Catholicism teaches, and b) you don't know your Bible well.
Bob Cross
enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price for
us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't know if
they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh my, I
missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following your
poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
9 volts
wrote:
>> The so-called prayer you included proves you are following a false religion.
>> According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the inerrant
>> Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
>
>And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
>She has for me.
Sorry dear for butting in, but she has done so for me as well. Time
and time again.
>
>Paula
9 volts
wrote:
>The so-called prayer you included proves you are following a false religion.
>According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the inerrant
>Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
>
Correct - Jesus answers prayers. Mary prays to jesus for us. 8-P
We can play semantics all night - prayer = worship, intercession =
answering prayer, etc. Point is we *ask* Mary to pray for us. Sure,
the words "Pray to Mary" are used but truth is Mary listens to our
prayers, I love talking to her, and she actually has been quite a
mother for me. Her prayers for me are very important.
Mary's intercession is her prayers for us to her son. And as you
know, the prayers of a righteous man are powerful. Well, I took
Christ at his word there. Between Mary & Augustine I've got plenty of
prayers for me. =) And from two righteous people.
-9v
9 volts
wrote:
>And where does the Bible say that?
>Bob
It comes about the same way the Trinity comes out of the bible. It's
not spelled out in black and white.
Body of Christ = souls of believers, believers when they die are with
Christ and not dead at all but still alive, so we ask them to pray for
us.
9 volts
wrote:
>I know enough to know that your sham religion teaches that Jesus is not
>enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price for
>us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't know if
>they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh my, I
>missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following your
>poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
*grin* I can feel the love.
Bob, the Church *does* teach that Jesus is who gives us salvation.
The Church also takes James 2 to mean that we have to walk the walk
and talk the talk or else there is no getting into heaven - baptised
or not.
As far as missing mass and going to hell, I'm not touching that one.
At all. I personally don't miss mass b/c I get too much out of it.
And the one time I did miss it a while back I felt so guilty I
couldn't handle it. So.... get a lot out of it and be happy... or
miss it and feel guilty.... hmm.
"Poopy Pope?"
Straight into Hell huh? Those poor people from 33 AD to 1500... real
shame.
Even after 1500, those poor people who couldn't afford a Bible...
The Bible is AN authority. It is not the ONLY authority.
Carolingian
you are a child of Satan. Each time you attack Christ's Church you are
acting on Satan's behalf and being one of his followers. I'll pray for your
soul as you are misguided.
Carroll
"Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8vr9t0$1e6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Carolingian
> religion.
> > > According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
> inerrant
> > > Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> >
> > She has for me.
> >
> And where does the Bible say that?
> Bob
Holy Scripture is one of the treasures of the Catholic Church. She has
always been founded upon the Gospel. Holy Scripture was placed into the
hands of the Catholic Church by God. For Tradition and Magisterium existed
before Holy Scripture as the sacred writers had not yet written the Gospels,
Acts, the Epistles, when the magisterium existed. Holy Scripture, came
later, giving support to the Catholic Church, but it was the tradition that
received the Holy Scripture, thus giving the teaching authority of the
Catholic Church. This is why the Catholic Church has the full truth and all
others only portions if any truth at all.
"O St. Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the
throne of God, I place in thee all my interest and desires.
O St. Joseph, assist me by thy powerful intercession and obtain for me all
spiritual blessings through thy foster Son, Jesus Christ Our Lord, so that,
having engaged here below thy heavenly power, I may offer thee my
thanksgiving and homage.
O St. Joseph, I never weary contemplating thee and Jesus asleep in thine
arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near thy heart. Press Him in my
name and kiss His fine head for me, and ask Him to return the kiss when I
draw my dying breath.
St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for me."
Bob Cross
"9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
news:clt22tcaofeqldia7...@4ax.com...
religion.
> >> According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
inerrant
> >> Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> >
>
> >And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
> >She has for me.
>
> and time again.
> >
> >Paula
Carolingian
> > > religion.
> > > > > According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
> > > inerrant
> > > > > Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> > > >
> > > > And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
> > > > She has for me.
> > > >
> > > And where does the Bible say that?
> >
> say
> > Jesus is our only intercessor. It DOES tell us that he is our only
> > MEDIATOR, something completely different, as I am sure you know.
> >
> > But at least we have witnessed that a) you don't have a clue what
> > Catholicism teaches, and b) you don't know your Bible well.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Stephen Korsman
> > skor...@global.co.za
> > http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/index.html
> > For the sick and for the aged,
> > for our dear ones far away,
> > for the hearts that mourn in secret,
> > all who need our prayers today,
> > for the faithful gone before us,
> > may the Blessed Virgin pray.
> > - VSS Coles, 1845-1929
> >
> enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price for
> us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't know if
> they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh my, I
> missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following
your
> poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
Oh, you have also taken over Christ's job of judgment!
Carolingian
"9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
news:clt22tcaofeqldia7...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:51:34 -0600, Paula <spoc...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
religion.
> >> According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
inerrant
> >> Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> >
>
> >And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
> >She has for me.
>
> and time again.
> >
She has for me too.
Carroll
Bob Cross
"9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> >enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price
for
> >us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't know
if
> >they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh my,
I
> >missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following
your
> >poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
>
Why should love Satan's church?
>
> Bob, the Church *does* teach that Jesus is who gives us salvation.
> The Church also takes James 2 to mean that we have to walk the walk
> and talk the talk or else there is no getting into heaven - baptised
> or not.
Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments to
be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go through
some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
> As far as missing mass and going to hell, I'm not touching that one.
> At all. I personally don't miss mass b/c I get too much out of it.
> And the one time I did miss it a while back I felt so guilty I
> couldn't handle it. So.... get a lot out of it and be happy... or
> miss it and feel guilty.... hmm.
>
> "Poopy Pope?"
>
> Straight into Hell huh? Those poor people from 33 AD to 1500... real
> shame.
>
> Even after 1500, those poor people who couldn't afford a Bible...
>
> The Bible is AN authority. It is not the ONLY authority.
That's what your poopy pope wants you to believe. You have been totally
sucked in to that lie!! That makes you a "sucker"!! WAKE UP SUCKER!!!
>
Bob Cross
"Carolingian" <fri...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:26BB8860EFC9F6F2.5B8F644E...@lp.airnews.net...
Bob Cross
> >
> > "Stephen Korsman" <skor...@global.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:8vrjqi$4ld$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > >
false
> > > > religion.
> > > > > > According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
> > > > inerrant
> > > > > > Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
> > > > > She has for me.
> > > > >
> > > > And where does the Bible say that?
> > >
> > > All Christians are commanded to be intercessors. Nowhere does the
Bible
> > say
> > > Jesus is our only intercessor. It DOES tell us that he is our only
> > > MEDIATOR, something completely different, as I am sure you know.
> > >
> > > But at least we have witnessed that a) you don't have a clue what
> > > Catholicism teaches, and b) you don't know your Bible well.
> > >
> > > God bless,
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Stephen Korsman
> > > skor...@global.co.za
> > > http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/index.html
> > > For the sick and for the aged,
> > > for our dear ones far away,
> > > for the hearts that mourn in secret,
> > > all who need our prayers today,
> > > for the faithful gone before us,
> > > may the Blessed Virgin pray.
> > > - VSS Coles, 1845-1929
> > >
> > enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price
for
> > us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't know
if
> > they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh my,
I
> > missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following
> your
> > poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
>
Bob Cross
>
> Holy Scripture is one of the treasures of the Catholic Church. She has
> always been founded upon the Gospel. Holy Scripture was placed into the
> hands of the Catholic Church by God. For Tradition and Magisterium
existed
> before Holy Scripture as the sacred writers had not yet written the
Gospels,
> Acts, the Epistles, when the magisterium existed. Holy Scripture, came
> later, giving support to the Catholic Church, but it was the tradition
that
> received the Holy Scripture, thus giving the teaching authority of the
> Catholic Church. This is why the Catholic Church has the full truth and
all
> others only portions if any truth at all.
R. Kirk McPike
Bob Cross wrote:
Wow, swearing and unsubstantiated statements. What a compelling argument
you make, Mr. Bigot.
Kirk
9 volts
wrote:
>Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments to
>be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go through
>some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
You think that salvation means not having to pay for sins?
I think not. Christ died so we could be saved, not so we could just
repent and get away with murder.
Also, purgatory comes from the original, pre-luther bible.
9 volts
wrote:
>What CRAP!! More Lies!! More Deception!!! Satan at work!!!
Say it ain't so! ;-)
9 volts
<rkir...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> What CRAP!! More Lies!! More Deception!!! Satan at work!!!
>
>Wow, swearing and unsubstantiated statements. What a compelling argument
>you make, Mr. Bigot.
>
>Kirk
Shhh! I'm enjoying this.
9 volts
wrote:
>Don't pray for me you brain dead follower of the Anti-Christ!
You sure you're not just a not so good troll?
Bob Cross
"9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:55:49 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments
to
> >be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go
through
> >some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
>
> You think that salvation means not having to pay for sins?
>
> I think not. Christ died so we could be saved, not so we could just
> repent and get away with murder.
>
> Also, purgatory comes from the original, pre-luther bible.
I'm having a discussion with a TOTAL MORON!!
Bob Cross
"Kelly" <ke...@home.com> wrote in message
news:qShU5.7310$Y6.12...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
>
> 9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> needs
> Christmas shopping money.
>
Yeah, I need to buy your mother a present for doing me!!
Bob Cross
"Joseph Geloso" <jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a21bb89...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:54:56 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm having a discussion with a TOTAL MORON!!
>
Not as astonished as I am that you and so many other MORONS are following
the teachings of the Anti-Christ aka poopy pope!!!!
Kelly
s.net...
>
> "9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:51:34 -0600, Paula
<spoc...@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> >
a false
> religion.
> > >> According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe
is the
> inerrant
> > >> Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> > >
> >
> > >And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
> > >She has for me.
> >
well. Time
> > and time again.
> > >
>
> She has for me too.
>
> Carroll
...And for me as well....she brought me straight to her Son, just
as she always
does. :-)
Kelly
9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
Joseph Geloso
Kelly
And you call yourself a Christian?
Stephen Korsman
> I know enough to know that your sham religion teaches that Jesus is not
> enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price for
> us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't know if
> they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh my, I
> missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following
your
> poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
Well, I guess your answer clears up one thing - you cannot refute my
scripture quotes and arguments, so I guess, at least on that topic, I know
my Bible and you don't.
Also, based on what you said above, your knowledge of Catholicism is
exceptionally poor. You clearly don't have the foggiest idea what we
believe.
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skor...@global.co.za
Sites against Adventism:
http://members.tripod.com/SDAdventist/index.htm
http://members.xoom.com/SDAdventist/index.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/sda2rcc/index.html
http://www.homestead.com/adventist/files/index.htm
Church of God site:
http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/cog/index.htm
Main site / pro Catholic sites
http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/index.html
Corky
He doesn't need to love his neighbor or to act morally.....he's already
saved!....unlike us poor Catholics who are doomed to hell, we need to
continue to follow Jesus' commands.
Corky
Oh, oh, oh.........<jumping up and down, raising my hand like Horshack
of "Welcome Back Kotter">.....Me too, me too, Mary's interceded for me
too!!
Scout Lady
>
> "9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:55:49 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments
> to
> > >be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go
> through
> > >some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
> >
> > You think that salvation means not having to pay for sins?
> >
> > I think not. Christ died so we could be saved, not so we could just
> > repent and get away with murder.
> >
> > Also, purgatory comes from the original, pre-luther bible.
>
>
>
this, call me that, call yourself a dirty rat.
Note to the adults in this newsgroup. I apologize for having to mimic Bob's
childish mentality, but I am trying to reach the misguided one on his own
level. He can't be expected to understand anything that requires two brain
cells, he is definitely short one and possibly both. I say this with love
and understanding, not as an insult towards his inferior intellect. I pray
that the Lord in his infinite mercy will forgive him for his unChristian
like behavior. The first rule Bob, is to love your neighbor. Let's work on
that okay.
Peace
Cathy
SumBuny4Me
>
> "Paula" <spoc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3A213F...@bellsouth.net...
> > She has for me.
> >
> And where does the Bible say that?
> Bob
And where in the Bible some worhip does it specifically exclude Mary from
praying for us? Where does it say, "Mary, the mother of Jesus, cannot be
asked to pray to her Son/God on others' behalf"? No chapter/verse says
that....
Buny
SumBuny4Me
> Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments to
> be saved
Um, Bob,
-are you a baptised Christian? Could you be "saved" without being a
baptised Christian? Baptism is a <gasp> sacrament.....
Do you receive communion at your service? In a Catholic Mass, this, too, is
a <gasp> sacrament.
The Catholic Church does not *require* the sacraments to be saved, but does
realize that we mere mortals need help, need reminders of how much God loves
us, reminders that we sinful mortals can actually be worthy of His
Grace--because He chooses us to be. Honestly, that concept is a really hard
one to grasp for most of us mere mortals...."how am *I* worthy of God's
love???" Sacraments are mere signs of this, reminders of this. If God so
chooses, He can (and probably does) receive into heaven Whomever He so
chooses--regardless of whether or not that person routinely received the
sacraments.....
The sacraments are there for human needs, not God's needs....and He has done
this for us....."Do this in remembrance of Me"
Buny
Stephen Korsman
Hear ! hear !!
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skor...@global.co.za
"When I find myself in times of trouble,
Mother Mary comes to me"
-- Let it be, The Beatles
Sam Stevenson
"Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8vs7r7$mi1$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> "9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> news:sl332tonc3apbiulj...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:55:49 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments
> to
> > >be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go
> through
> > >some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
> >
> > You think that salvation means not having to pay for sins?
> >
> > I think not. Christ died so we could be saved, not so we could just
> > repent and get away with murder.
> >
> > Also, purgatory comes from the original, pre-luther bible.
>
> I'm having a discussion with a TOTAL MORON!!
>
Perhaps you should stop talking to yourself. ;-)
>
>
Sam Stevenson
"Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8vsi7e$lm0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> "Kelly" <ke...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:qShU5.7310$Y6.12...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
> Yeah, I need to buy your mother a present for doing me!!
>
Killfile bait.
>
Juggernaut
>communism in Europe to the intervention of the Virgin Mary of Fatima. He
If this is copyrighted, I'm assuming you received permission from the
copyright holder?
R. Kirk McPike
"Juggernaut" <jugge...@about.com> wrote in message
news:8FF99C4BA...@207.126.101.100...
Well, whoever these Biblical Discernment Ministires idiots are, they didn't
author the list of Catholic "Inventions" since it comes straight from the
Anti-Catholic's textbook, ROMAN CATHOLICISM by Lorraine Boettner.
This list was clearly made up by someone who knows nothing of Christian
History, outside of the myths perpetuated by Fundies like the "trail of
blood."
I mean, look at the list: It's clearly full of errors.
Sign of the cross from 300AD? There's writings by the Church Fathers in the
second century that speak of the sign of the cross, which was a widely
establish action at that point.
Last Rites in 526? That's the annointing of the sick... the Apostles prayed
over the sick in teh Book of Acts, in the 40s.
Purgatory, though not in its fully defined form, is found mentioned in the
early Church Father writings of the ante-Nicean period.
Transubastantation as the word was selected in 1215 to describe the process
of the Real Presence, but the concept is Biblical, can be traced to the
Apostolic era, and is common to all the ancient Churches, even the Orthodox,
who broke away from Rome well before 1215.
Also, Confession was from the apostolic times. Not "created" in 1215...
again, writings of the Church Fathers, and the fact that it is present in
Eastern Orthodoxy prove that it must come from well before this point.
The Apocrypha were present in all the ancient Bibles. The modern Protestant
canon of the Old Testament was not in use until after the death of Jesus.
Almost all Jews of the Apostolic era used the Septuagint. Guttenberg's first
bible published well before 1546 was Catholic and had the "Apocrypha", which
are properly called the Deuterocanonicals.
If anti-Catholics could get their facts straight, their case would be far
more compelling.
Kirk
Bob Cross
truly sorry.
Bob
Bob Cross
"SumBuny4Me" <rous...@NOSPAMhome.com> wrote in message
news:T4xU5.26351$iy3.6...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
> >
> > "Paula" <spoc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:3A213F...@bellsouth.net...
> > > She has for me.
> > >
> > And where does the Bible say that?
> > Bob
>
>
>
> And where in the Bible some worhip does it specifically exclude Mary from
> praying for us? Where does it say, "Mary, the mother of Jesus, cannot be
> asked to pray to her Son/God on others' behalf"? No chapter/verse says
> that....
>
> Buny
>
Bob
Corky
We ask Mary to pray to her son for us for the same reason that we ask
each other to pray for us. (In fact, I ask you now to please pray for
me and my intentions.) We believe that those christians (like Mary) who
have passed from this world into His Presence are still very much
alive. As scripture tells us, "The prayer of a righteous man availeth
much"
serap...@my-deja.com
"Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "Joseph Geloso" <jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3a21bb89...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I'm having a discussion with a TOTAL MORON!!
Gee, I miss CB, at least his rantings have SOME substance to them.
> > Your rapier-like wit continues to astonish me!
> Not as astonished as I am that you and so many other MORONS are
following
> the teachings of the Anti-Christ aka poopy pope!!!!
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
serap...@my-deja.com
"Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "Kelly" <ke...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:qShU5.7310$Y6.12...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
> >
Mr. Cross, with that statement you have completely destroyed any
credibility you may have had.
You say things like that, and then presume to lecture people on "true"
Christianity!
Shame!
-
Carolingian
And it all comes out in the wash. I'm sure God enjoyed these worldly words
of the truth!
Alan W. Craft
>
>"SumBuny4Me" <rous...@NOSPAMhome.com> wrote in message
>news:T4xU5.26351$iy3.6...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
>>
>> "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:8vrgnj$dpu$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>> >
>> > "Paula" <spoc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> > news:3A213F...@bellsouth.net...
>> > > And Mary intercedes with Christ on our behalf...
>> > > She has for me.
>> > >
>> > > Paula
>> > And where does the Bible say that?
>> > Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> And where in the Bible some worhip does it specifically exclude Mary from
>> praying for us? Where does it say, "Mary, the mother of Jesus, cannot be
>> asked to pray to her Son/God on others' behalf"? No chapter/verse says
>> that....
>>
>> Buny
>>
>Why pray to Mary when you can pray directly to Jesus?
>Bob
Are you not half your father and half your mother?
Therefore, are you not one?
Alan
Carolingian
> > >
> > > "Stephen Korsman" <skor...@global.co.za> wrote in message
> > > news:8vrjqi$4ld$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > > >
> > > > Bob Cross <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8vrgnj$dpu$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Paula" <spoc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3A213F...@bellsouth.net...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Stephen Korsman" <skor...@global.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:8vrcr7$gb1$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If only you had done a little research and gotten up to date
> on
> > > your
> > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > and understanding of Catholic teaching, you might be able to
> > make
> > > a
> > > > > > > sensible
> > > > > > > > argument. But, since you didn't, your article here is
riddled
> > > with
> > > > > > > > historical errors and misrpresentations, so I guess it
doesn't
> > > > really
> > > > > > > > address Catholicism at all, only what YOU think Catholicism
> is.
> > > And
> > > > > since
> > > > > > > > you obviously don't understand Catholicism or know much
> history,
> > I
> > > > > guess
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > can dismiss this drivel as irrelevant to our lives as
> > Christians.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > God bless,
> > > > > > > > Stephen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Stephen Korsman
> > > > > > > > skor...@global.co.za
> > > > > > > > For the sick and for the aged,
> > > > > > > > for our dear ones far away,
> > > > > > > > for the hearts that mourn in secret,
> > > > > > > > all who need our prayers today,
> > > > > > > > for the faithful gone before us,
> > > > > > > > may the Blessed Virgin pray.
> > > > > > > > - VSS Coles, 1845-1929
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The so-called prayer you included proves you are following a
> false
> > > > > religion.
> > > > > > > According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is
the
> > > > > inerrant
> > > > > > > Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She has for me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paula
> > > > > And where does the Bible say that?
> > > >
> Bible
> > > say
> > > > Jesus is our only intercessor. It DOES tell us that he is our only
> > > > MEDIATOR, something completely different, as I am sure you know.
> > > >
> > > > But at least we have witnessed that a) you don't have a clue what
> > > > Catholicism teaches, and b) you don't know your Bible well.
> > > >
> > > > God bless,
> > > > Stephen
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Stephen Korsman
> > > > skor...@global.co.za
> > > > For the sick and for the aged,
> > > > for our dear ones far away,
> > > > for the hearts that mourn in secret,
> > > > all who need our prayers today,
> > > > for the faithful gone before us,
> > > > may the Blessed Virgin pray.
> > > > - VSS Coles, 1845-1929
> > > >
> > > I know enough to know that your sham religion teaches that Jesus is
not
> > > enough for salvation!!!! Therefore denying that He paid the FULL price
> for
> > > us when He died on the Cross. Every catholic I've ever met doesn't
know
> if
> > > they're saved because your dumb cult-church keeps them guessing. "Oh
my,
> I
> > > missed Mass so I'm going to Hell". What a load of BS!!! Keep following
> > your
> > > poopy pope and he'll lead you right to Hell!!! WAKE UP!!!!
> >
> It's not judgement, it's called discerning the truth!
In 215 A.D., Hippolytus of Rome composed his work, The Apostolic Tradition,
in which he set down the liturgical and theological teachings the Roman
Catholic Church had preserved from the days of the Apostles. This section
sets out a tightly scripted liturgy for the ordination of priest:
Priest: The Lord be with you.
Congregation: And with your spirit.
Priest: Let us lift our hearts.
Congregation: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord.
Congregation: It is right and just.
Go to a Mass on see how familiar these words are to your ears.
The liturgies of St. Mark, St. James and St. Peter are still used in many
places of the world today. You can find them in ancient texts that show our
claim to apostolic lineage. The full truth is in the Catholic Church, not
in your judgmental statements.
Carroll
Carolingian
> >
> > Holy Scripture is one of the treasures of the Catholic Church. She has
> > always been founded upon the Gospel. Holy Scripture was placed into the
> > hands of the Catholic Church by God. For Tradition and Magisterium
> existed
> > before Holy Scripture as the sacred writers had not yet written the
> Gospels,
> > Acts, the Epistles, when the magisterium existed. Holy Scripture, came
> > later, giving support to the Catholic Church, but it was the tradition
> that
> > received the Holy Scripture, thus giving the teaching authority of the
> > Catholic Church. This is why the Catholic Church has the full truth and
> all
> > others only portions if any truth at all.
> What CRAP!! More Lies!! More Deception!!! Satan at work!!!
Prove me that I am a Liar!
Carolingian
> > >
> > > "Kelly" <ke...@home.com> wrote in message
> > > news:qShU5.7310$Y6.12...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
> > > >
> > > > 9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> > > > news:hi432tsioi789pmsr...@4ax.com...
> > > > > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:24:16 -0600, "R. Kirk McPike"
> > > > > <rkir...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > work!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > compelling argument
> > > > > >you make, Mr. Bigot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Kirk
> > > > >
> > > > > Shhh! I'm enjoying this.
> > > >
> > > > He's really racking up the $$$ for each post he sends. Maybe
> > he
> > > > needs
> > > > Christmas shopping money.
> > > >
> > > Yeah, I need to buy your mother a present for doing me!!
> >
> >
> I apologize. I get frustrated when people deny the power of Calvary. I'm
> truly sorry.
> Bob
Who is denying the power of Calvary?
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love You! Please pardon those who
do not believe, nor adore, nor hope nor love You!
Martyn
idolatry in putting Mary above Jesus, she is more important to them as any
service will show. They claim contrary to scripture that Mary and dead
saints
can intercede on our behalf with God:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
Jesus;"
(1 Timothy 2:5, KJV) How then can any dead saint or Mary intercede if the
Bible
says only Jesus can? To what effect are your prayers then?
The Roman Catholic Church practises idolatry in that they claim that the
bread and
the wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ. Jesus I'm sure, will
be a
little displeased to see a whole bunch of
people worshipping a piece of bread instead of him (anyone reminded of a
certain Golden Calf at this point?). Catholics insult God by going around
with the attitude that if they commit 4 sins, then 4 good deeds will redeem
them. Look to the scriptures Galatians 2:16, then 2:21, see what Jesus
thinks of people who try to "work off" sin. By doing this, you basically
tell Jesus to get stuffed. You don't care that He took your sins upon
himself, you'll get by your own way. Jesus did not die in vain, as Catholic
doctrine suggests. Why do Catholics baptise babies(and also don't even do
that right according to the Bible). Show me one scripture in all the Bible
that tells of a baby being baptised or says that we should do this. There
isn't one. Even baptism is done wrong. Baptism isn't a sprinkling of water
on a baby. Proper baptism is done by FULL IMMERSION, just look at the
scriptures Acts 2:38 and Matthew 3:11 (do babies even know how to say
repent, never mind actually do it), or even look to the scriptures
Acts 8:36-37, and John 3:23, THERE WAS MUCH WATER, not some little bowl.
Why did they need "much water", it was for FULL IMMERSION.
Purgatory.
Where did this one come up from? I ask you to show me a
scripture for this one. Better still, go ask your Priest if it exists, he
should know. The answer is no. I think it to be mighty convenient that if
you want a relative to get out of purgatory, you can give the Catholic
"Church" money and by their prayers and masses alone will God allow your
loved one out. I don't know about you, but this sounds awfully like a fraud
racket to me.
Celibacy.
Another unscriptural doctrine of man that defies the word of God.
Go take a look at 1st Timothy 3:1-2. Oh. It says here that a Bishop should
be the husband of one wife. A Bishop should have a wife, it is a condition
of office set by GOD. If you disobey, you are rebellious, and as scripture
says in 1 Samuel 15:23, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The Roman
Catholic Chuch disobeys, it rejects the word of God, see what scripture
says:
"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God,
that ye may keep your own tradition.... Making the word of God of
none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many
such like things do ye." (Mark 7:9,13, KJV)
The very reason that the Roman Church has never made much use of God's
word is that their traditions are contradicted by the scriptures, thus
making their teachings hostile to God. This is exactly the same kind of
disobedience that was going on in Jesus' time, and he condemned certain
Jews for it. Why should we think that the Lord feels any different about
this
kind of conduct today?
Veneration of images
There is little about this Catholic tradition that needs to be refuted:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the
earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou
shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the
LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
of them that hate me;" (Exodus 20:4-5, KJV)
We are not supposed to make any graven images, period. So why do
Catholics keep engravings of Mary, Peter, and other saints? These things
anger God! More so when the "Holy Father" bows down to the graven image
of Mary.
More False Doctrine
Confession. The idea that man, not God forgives sins, and that if you
confess your sins to a man he will be able to intercede for God and
forgive you. I know of the scripture, "confess one to another your sins
for healing" (paraphrased), but this does not say that we should confess
our sins to some guy in a church, and he will forgive us on God's behalf,
there are an awful lot of Catholics out there supposing God's will.
Moreover, do you think God will be pleased and forgive you for simply
saying a few words repetitiously (See Matthew 6:7 "But when ye pray,
use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall
be heard for their much speaking" KJV.
Do you question the Catholic Church: Do they teach me the Gospel of
Christ, or do they teach some other Gospel? Galatians 1:6-8
The biggest one of all. The claim that the pope is Christ's representative
on earth. That this man (and only a man) is infallible, that he is so holy
we are to bow down to him. You poor Catholics, they have you
commiting Idolatry at every turn.
Other Material
Many of us already know the troubled history of the RCC: because of
opposition to the church, millions were tortured, imprisoned, and
slaughtered in the Inquisitions and Crusades. And while the Latin Bible
could not be read by most (because it was not in vernacular, and because
it was banned), anyone who saw things in the Bible that conflicted with
Roman Catholic teachings was branded a heretic!
For more revelation about the true satanic nature of the Catholic Church
(I have no hatred for the sincere God Loving Catholics(and there are many,)
I just want to see them saved, it's the evil organisation of Catholicism I
hate.)
follow the link below.
Bob Cross
9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:29:14 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The so-called prayer you included proves you are following a false
religion.
> >According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
inerrant
> >Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> >
>
>
> We can play semantics all night - prayer = worship, intercession =
> answering prayer, etc. Point is we *ask* Mary to pray for us. Sure,
> the words "Pray to Mary" are used but truth is Mary listens to our
> prayers, I love talking to her, and she actually has been quite a
> mother for me. Her prayers for me are very important.
>
> Mary's intercession is her prayers for us to her son. And as you
> know, the prayers of a righteous man are powerful. Well, I took
> Christ at his word there. Between Mary & Augustine I've got plenty of
> prayers for me. =) And from two righteous people.
>
> -9v
If you are saved you have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus,
therefore when God looks at you He does not see your sins (the Bible
says so), he sees a righteous person, therefore you don't need anyone
to intercede, you can pray directly to Jesus.
Bob
Bob Cross
Stephen Korsman
> truly sorry.
Okay.
But we don't deny the power of Calvary. You need to understand what we
teach before you make such assumptions. Judging by the large amount of
errors regarding our beliefs in your posts, you have a lot of work ahead of
you.
Perhaps start with the arguments listed at the site "Biblical Evidence for
Catholicism" run by Dave Armstrong. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
Look especially at his list of official Catholic documents. And try to give
us a fair hearing, something your posts make it seem you are currently
unwilling to do.
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skor...@global.co.za
Bob Cross
copyright info is included.
Bob
In article <8FF99C4BA...@207.126.101.100>,
Bob Cross
<26BB8860EFC9F6F2.5B8F644E...@lp.airnews.net>,
"Carolingian" <fri...@airmail.net> wrote:
> Yes, it is a false religion to a Heathen. That is why we worship God
and
> you are a child of Satan. Each time you attack Christ's Church you
are
> acting on Satan's behalf and being one of his followers. I'll pray
for your
> soul as you are misguided.
>
> Carroll
Which one of your idols are you planning to pray to?
Bob
Stephen Korsman
Martyn <noma...@NOSPAMletigre.freeserve.cospam.uk> wrote in message
news:90121g$s0h$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> This is clear and obvious to see. The Roman Catholic Church practises
> idolatry in putting Mary above Jesus, she is more important to them as any
> service will show.
1. We do not put Mary above Jesus. That is a lie.
2. You have obviously never been to one of our services. I have never been
to one where Mary is mentioned more than just in passing, except feasts like
the Assumption, but even then the focus is Christ + God and Christ + God
alone.
> They claim contrary to scripture that Mary and dead
> saints
> can intercede on our behalf with God:
> "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ
> Jesus;"
> (1 Timothy 2:5, KJV) How then can any dead saint or Mary intercede if the
> Bible
> says only Jesus can? To what effect are your prayers then?
Well, obviously we cannot pray for each other, if only Jesus can pray for
us. So Paul was telling fibs when he wrote texts like Eph 6:18, Rom 15:30,
Col 4:3, 1 Thess 1:11.
Martyn, there is a HUGE difference between a mediator (Catholics believe
there was only one - Jesus) and an intercessor (the Bible states that there
are many, and we must be intercessors too.)
> The Roman Catholic Church practises idolatry in that they claim that the
> bread and
> the wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ.
Jesus taught it. Paul taught it. All the early Christians taught it. I
guess Jesus and Paul and the other Apostles were idolaters too.
> Jesus I'm sure, will
> be a
> little displeased to see a whole bunch of
> people worshipping a piece of bread instead of him (anyone reminded of a
> certain Golden Calf at this point?). Catholics insult God by going around
> with the attitude that if they commit 4 sins, then 4 good deeds will
redeem
> them. Look to the scriptures Galatians 2:16, then 2:21, see what Jesus
> thinks of people who try to "work off" sin. By doing this, you basically
> tell Jesus to get stuffed. You don't care that He took your sins upon
> himself, you'll get by your own way. Jesus did not die in vain, as
Catholic
> doctrine suggests. Why do Catholics baptise babies(and also don't even do
> that right according to the Bible). Show me one scripture in all the
Bible
> that tells of a baby being baptised or says that we should do this. There
> isn't one.
Yes there is. Acts 2:38-39, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 1 Cor 1:!6 - these do not
tell us that the babies involved were omitted from the baptisms. Col
2:11-12 tells us that baptism replaced circumcision. Circumcision was done
to babies, and the implication is that baptism can be done to babies too.
In fact, the analogy is so strong that one must believe that baptism can be
done to babies unless the Bible tells us it cannot - and there is not one
single text in the entire Bible which says this.
> Even baptism is done wrong. Baptism isn't a sprinkling of water
> on a baby. Proper baptism is done by FULL IMMERSION, just look at the
> scriptures Acts 2:38 and Matthew 3:11 (do babies even know how to say
> repent, never mind actually do it), or even look to the scriptures
> Acts 8:36-37, and John 3:23, THERE WAS MUCH WATER, not some little bowl.
Not quite. Baptism can be done by various methods, and the word means
washing, and that is biblical symbolism involved too. In fact there are
places in the Bible where full immersion was clearly NOT possible in that
particular baptism event.
> Why did they need "much water", it was for FULL IMMERSION.
Not in all cases. When people were baptised in prison full immersion was
not physically possible. But baptism was.
> Purgatory.
> Where did this one come up from? I ask you to show me a
> scripture for this one. Better still, go ask your Priest if it exists, he
> should know. The answer is no. I think it to be mighty convenient that
if
> you want a relative to get out of purgatory, you can give the Catholic
> "Church" money and by their prayers and masses alone will God allow your
> loved one out. I don't know about you, but this sounds awfully like a
fraud
> racket to me.
Plenty of texts for purgatory. Try Heb 12:6-11, 1 Cor 3:15.
> Celibacy.
> Another unscriptural doctrine of man that defies the word of God.
> Go take a look at 1st Timothy 3:1-2. Oh. It says here that a Bishop
should
> be the husband of one wife. A Bishop should have a wife, it is a
condition
> of office set by GOD.
Actually, it was set by Paul for those times. Such regulations can and do
change. The fact that it was in the Bible does not mean it can't change.
Circumcision was in the Bible and the Apostles dropped it like a hot potato,
and kept only the spiritual side of it.
> If you disobey, you are rebellious, and as scripture
> says in 1 Samuel 15:23, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The Roman
> Catholic Chuch disobeys, it rejects the word of God, see what scripture
> says:
>
> "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God,
> that ye may keep your own tradition.... Making the word of God of
> none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many
> such like things do ye." (Mark 7:9,13, KJV)
>
> The very reason that the Roman Church has never made much use of God's
> word is that their traditions are contradicted by the scriptures, thus
> making their teachings hostile to God.
Something often claimed, but can never be proven.
> This is exactly the same kind of
> disobedience that was going on in Jesus' time, and he condemned certain
> Jews for it. Why should we think that the Lord feels any different about
> this
> kind of conduct today?
>
> Veneration of images
>
> There is little about this Catholic tradition that needs to be refuted:
>
> "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
> likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the
> earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou
> shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the
> LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
> fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
> of them that hate me;" (Exodus 20:4-5, KJV)
>
> We are not supposed to make any graven images, period.
Utter nonsense. God even commanded that such images be made. See Ex
25:18-22, 26:1, 26:31, Num 21:8-9 and other texts. One needs to understand
the Bible, and not take it out of context as you are doing.
> So why do
> Catholics keep engravings of Mary, Peter, and other saints? These things
> anger God! More so when the "Holy Father" bows down to the graven image
> of Mary.
The prohibition was against worship of statues. We do not worship statues.
Therefore we do not break any commandment from God. See my essay at
http://members.tripod.com/SDAdventist/idols.htm for more details.
> More False Doctrine
> Confession. The idea that man, not God forgives sins, and that if you
> confess your sins to a man he will be able to intercede for God and
> forgive you. I know of the scripture, "confess one to another your sins
> for healing" (paraphrased), but this does not say that we should confess
> our sins to some guy in a church, and he will forgive us on God's behalf,
> there are an awful lot of Catholics out there supposing God's will.
> Moreover, do you think God will be pleased and forgive you for simply
> saying a few words repetitiously (See Matthew 6:7 "But when ye pray,
> use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they
shall
> be heard for their much speaking" KJV.
Obviously the texts John 20:22023, and Matt 18:17-18 and 2 Cor 5:18 are
meaningless to you. A lot of people, when confronted with two texts that
appear to contradict each other, choose the one that suits them best,
instead of trying to work out what is really meant.
> Do you question the Catholic Church: Do they teach me the Gospel of
> Christ, or do they teach some other Gospel? Galatians 1:6-8
>
> The biggest one of all. The claim that the pope is Christ's
representative
> on earth. That this man (and only a man) is infallible, that he is so
holy
> we are to bow down to him. You poor Catholics, they have you
> commiting Idolatry at every turn.
Bowing is a sign of respect that comes from a culture not your own. You
don't understand it, so you condemn it as evil without bothering to
understand. That is bigotry. The Bible says that men can be holy. And
since the Pope is Christ's representative on earth, he deserves respect.
But not worship, and Catholics do not worship the pope when they bow, any
more than any British subject would be worshipping the Queen if they bowed
to her.
Please take the time to study Catholic teaching and why we believe the Bible
supports our beliefs before you ignorantly make pronouncements against what
you clearly don't have much understanding on.
Stephen Korsman
Bob Cross <bob...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9015fl$d0f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Well said Marilyn!!! Amen!
> Bob
His post showed incredible ignorance of Catholicism and the Bible, as did
yours.
Stephen Korsman
So if your friend asked you to pray for him, you'd tell him, "No, that's
unscriptural, you must ask Jesus to pray for you, I may not."
Really ? Can you not intercede with God for your friends ? How terribly,
terribly sad !
Juggernaut
<90121g$s0h$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>This is clear and obvious to see. The Roman Catholic Church practises
>idolatry in putting Mary above Jesus, she is more important to them as
>any service will show. They claim contrary to scripture that Mary and
>dead saints
>can intercede on our behalf with God:
>"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
>Christ Jesus;"
>(1 Timothy 2:5, KJV) How then can any dead saint or Mary intercede if
>the Bible
>says only Jesus can? To what effect are your prayers then?
1. The Church never puts Mary "above" Jesus. We never say she is more
important than Jesus.
2. St. Paul in that very same passage 1 Tim 2:1-5, states that "intercessions
... be made for all men," and that it is good and acceptable to God. So I'm
asking you, you really believe that we cannot ask other Christians to interceed
for us?
>The Roman Catholic Church practises idolatry in that they claim that the
>bread and
>the wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ. Jesus I'm sure,
>will be a
>little displeased to see a whole bunch of
>people worshipping a piece of bread instead of him (anyone reminded of a
>certain Golden Calf at this point?).
I'd rather believe Christ when he said that we must eat his body and drink his
blood and that it was real food and real drink. (John 6:54-56)
>Catholics insult God by going
>around with the attitude that if they commit 4 sins, then 4 good deeds
>will redeem them. Look to the scriptures Galatians 2:16, then 2:21, see
>what Jesus thinks of people who try to "work off" sin. By doing this,
>you basically tell Jesus to get stuffed. You don't care that He took
>your sins upon himself, you'll get by your own way. Jesus did not die
>in vain, as Catholic doctrine suggests.
Catholic doctrine does not suggest anything of the sort. From where are you
getting this false information?
>Why do Catholics baptise
>babies(and also don't even do that right according to the Bible). Show
>me one scripture in all the Bible that tells of a baby being baptised or
>says that we should do this. There isn't one. Even baptism is done
>wrong. Baptism isn't a sprinkling of water on a baby. Proper baptism
>is done by FULL IMMERSION, just look at the scriptures Acts 2:38 and
>Matthew 3:11 (do babies even know how to say repent, never mind actually
>do it), or even look to the scriptures Acts 8:36-37, and John 3:23,
>THERE WAS MUCH WATER, not some little bowl.
Catholic doctrine states you can be baptized by either sprinkling for full
immersion.
>
>Why did they need "much water", it was for FULL IMMERSION.
>
>Purgatory.
>Where did this one come up from? I ask you to show me a
>scripture for this one. Better still, go ask your Priest if it exists,
>he should know. The answer is no. I think it to be mighty convenient
>that if you want a relative to get out of purgatory, you can give the
>Catholic "Church" money and by their prayers and masses alone will God
>allow your loved one out. I don't know about you, but this sounds
>awfully like a fraud racket to me.
Purgatory is merely the final sanctification since nothing impure can enter
heaven. You do believe in sanctification, don't you?
>
>Celibacy.
>Another unscriptural doctrine of man that defies the word of God.
>Go take a look at 1st Timothy 3:1-2. Oh. It says here that a Bishop
>should be the husband of one wife. A Bishop should have a wife, it is a
>condition of office set by GOD. If you disobey, you are rebellious, and
>as scripture says in 1 Samuel 15:23, rebellion is as the sin of
>witchcraft. The Roman Catholic Chuch disobeys, it rejects the word of
>God, see what scripture says:
>
>"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God,
>that ye may keep your own tradition.... Making the word of God of
>none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many
>such like things do ye." (Mark 7:9,13, KJV)
>
>The very reason that the Roman Church has never made much use of God's
>word is that their traditions are contradicted by the scriptures, thus
>making their teachings hostile to God. This is exactly the same kind of
>disobedience that was going on in Jesus' time, and he condemned certain
>Jews for it. Why should we think that the Lord feels any different about
>this
>kind of conduct today?
Jesus himself praised celibacy (Mt 19:12) and we know that St. Paul recommended
celibacy for full-time ministers (1 Cor 7:32-35).
>
>Veneration of images
>
>There is little about this Catholic tradition that needs to be refuted:
>
>"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
>likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the
>earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou
>shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the
>LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
>fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
>of them that hate me;" (Exodus 20:4-5, KJV)
>
>We are not supposed to make any graven images, period. So why do
>Catholics keep engravings of Mary, Peter, and other saints? These things
>anger God! More so when the "Holy Father" bows down to the graven image
>of Mary.
Do you have any photographs of relatives or friends in your house? Graven
images!
>
>More False Doctrine
>Confession. The idea that man, not God forgives sins, and that if you
>confess your sins to a man he will be able to intercede for God and
>forgive you. I know of the scripture, "confess one to another your sins
>for healing" (paraphrased), but this does not say that we should confess
>our sins to some guy in a church, and he will forgive us on God's
>behalf, there are an awful lot of Catholics out there supposing God's
>will. Moreover, do you think God will be pleased and forgive you for
>simply saying a few words repetitiously (See Matthew 6:7 "But when ye
>pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that
>they shall be heard for their much speaking" KJV.
Catholics beleive that God indeed forgives the sin, but that the priest
participates in the "ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor 5:17-20).
And we know that Jesus authorized the Apostles to forgive sins (Jn 20:23).
>
>Do you question the Catholic Church: Do they teach me the Gospel of
>Christ, or do they teach some other Gospel? Galatians 1:6-8
They teach the same Gospel that was handed down thru the Apostles.
>
>The biggest one of all. The claim that the pope is Christ's
>representative on earth. That this man (and only a man) is infallible,
>that he is so holy we are to bow down to him. You poor Catholics, they
>have you commiting Idolatry at every turn.
Do you deny that St. Peter was given by Christ himself the keys to the kingdom
of heaven (Mat 16:16-19), and do you deny that Christ made Peter the shepherd
of the Church (John 21:15-17)?
Juggernaut
>In article <mqt22t0imcu9g0l24...@4ax.com>,
> 9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:29:14 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The so-called prayer you included proves you are following a false
>religion.
>> >According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
>inerrant
>> >Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
>> >
>>
>> Correct - Jesus answers prayers. Mary prays to jesus for us. 8-P
>>
>> We can play semantics all night - prayer = worship, intercession =
>> answering prayer, etc. Point is we *ask* Mary to pray for us. Sure,
>> the words "Pray to Mary" are used but truth is Mary listens to our
>> prayers, I love talking to her, and she actually has been quite a
>> mother for me. Her prayers for me are very important.
>>
>> Mary's intercession is her prayers for us to her son. And as you
>> know, the prayers of a righteous man are powerful. Well, I took
>> Christ at his word there. Between Mary & Augustine I've got plenty of
>> prayers for me. =) And from two righteous people.
>>
>> -9v
>If you are saved you have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus,
>therefore when God looks at you He does not see your sins (the Bible
>says so), he sees a righteous person, therefore you don't need anyone
>to intercede, you can pray directly to Jesus.
Of course we can pray directly to God, but that doesn't stop us from asking
others to pray and interceed for us. Note, read 1 Tim 2:1
Alan W. Craft
>Which one of your idols are you planning to pray to?
Oh, he's back to his old nasty self again.
Alan
Carolingian
> In article
> <26BB8860EFC9F6F2.5B8F644E...@lp.airnews.net>,
> "Carolingian" <fri...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > Yes, it is a false religion to a Heathen. That is why we worship God
> and
> > you are a child of Satan. Each time you attack Christ's Church you
> are
> > acting on Satan's behalf and being one of his followers. I'll pray
> for your
> > soul as you are misguided.
> >
> > Carroll
There you go again, judging without knowing their heart. I pray to God in
union with the angel and saints as I will go to Mass tomorrow morning to
praise God. I will have a good time being in Heaven on Earth as written in
Holy Scripture. I will eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of my Lord and God
for Jesus gives His Body and His Blood as a spiritual food and drink for our
new life. He wants to unite Himself intimately with each of us, to the
point of becoming totally one with us.
Love demands communion; love leads to unity. Jesus brings about a very
profound unity with you, even to the point of becoming flesh of our flesh
and blood of our blood. As Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him, so
too, by means of the Eucharistic Communion, we are in Him, as He is in us.
Carroll
Carolingian
"Martyn" <noma...@NOSPAMletigre.freeserve.cospam.uk> wrote in message
news:90121g$s0h$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> idolatry in putting Mary above Jesus, she is more important to them as any
> service will show. They claim contrary to scripture that Mary and dead
> saints
What service might that be? The Mass? How many have you attended to make
such a claim. Bearing false witness is a sin.
> Purgatory.
> Where did this one come up from? I ask you to show me a
> scripture for this one. Better still, go ask your Priest if it exists, he
> should know. The answer is no. I think it to be mighty convenient that
if
> you want a relative to get out of purgatory, you can give the Catholic
> "Church" money and by their prayers and masses alone will God allow your
> loved one out. I don't know about you, but this sounds awfully like a
fraud
> racket to me.
Purgatory came from the Jewish faith, a tradition.
You need to learn the teaching of the Church before making false statements.
Carroll
Pied Piper
not now nor has ever been above Jesus nor equal to Jesus in Catholicism. We
do not practice idolatry, Mary and the saints are part of Catholicism as is
transubstantiation, just as it was in the early church. The rest of your
crap is right out of a Jack Chick pamphlet. Try reading and learning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
Revised Second Edition
Copyright © 1996 by Catholic Answers. All Rights reserved
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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WHETHER or not you are Catholic, you may have questions about the Catholic
faith. You may have heard challenges to the Catholic Church's claim to be
the interpreter and safeguard of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Such challenges come from door-to-door missionaries who ask, "Are you
saved?", from peer pressure that urges you to ignore the Church's teachings,
from a secular culture that whispers "There is no God."
You can't deal with these challenges unless you understand the basics of the
Catholic faith. This booklet introduces them to you.
In Catholicism you will find answers to life's most troubling questions: Why
am I here? Who made me? What must I believe? How must I act? All these can
be answered to your satisfaction, if only you will open yourself to God's
grace, turn to the Church he established, and follow his plan for you (John
7:17).
AN UNBROKEN HISTORY
Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that
"a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is
a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify
it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will
build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt.
16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never
fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the
time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic
Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in
1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which
began in 1517. (Most of today's Protestant churches are actually offshoots
of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century,
and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ
to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in
unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution
in history.
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches
that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic
Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or
twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them
can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant
opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church's divine origin.
It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering
that its human members- even some of its leaders-have been unwise, corrupt,
or prone to heresy.
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early
on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and
the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that
is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church's leaders, but to the
protection of the Holy Spirit.
FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one
that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek
must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813-822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches
(Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the
bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23-32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his
spouse is the Catholic Church.
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as
those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which
Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).
Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church
's official teachers-the pope and the bishops united with him-have never
changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more
fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12-13), but
it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25-27, Rev. 19:7-8, CCC 823-829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn't
mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good
and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go
to heaven (Matt. 7:21-23).
But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is
the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments
(cf. Eph. 5:26).
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19-20, Rev. 5:9-10, CCC 830-856)
Jesus' Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his
gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make
disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19-20).
For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching
the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be
members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is
still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt.
28:19).
The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the
Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of
Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title
apparently was old in Ignatius's time, which means it probably went all the
way back to the time of the apostles.
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19-20, CCC 857-865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to
be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its
future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first
century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully
handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and
oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).
These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of
Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness
of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of
purgatory, Mary's special role, and much more -even the doctrine of
apostolic succession itself.
Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic
in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their
leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the
Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
Man's ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy,
catholic, and apostolic-not through man's effort, but because God preserves
the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).
He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar
of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today
he guides us through his Catholic Church.
The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians
testify that the Church teaches with Jesus' authority. In this age of
countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises
above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and
foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).
Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops,
"He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me"
(Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John
16:12-13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.
THE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH
Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of the Church. He gave
them his own authority to teach and to govern-not as dictators, but as
loving pastors and fathers. That is why Catholics call their spiritual
leaders "father." In doing so we follow Paul's example: "I became your
father in Jesus Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).
The apostles, fulfilling Jesus' will, ordained bishops, priests, and deacons
and thus handed on their apostolic ministry to them-the fullest degree of
ordination to the bishops, lesser degrees to the priests and deacons.
The Pope and Bishops (CCC 880-883)
Jesus gave Peter special authority among the apostles (John 21:15-17) and
signified this by changing his name from Simon to Peter, which means "rock"
(John 1:42). He said Peter was to be the rock on which he would build his
Church (Matt. 16:18).
In Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, Simon's new name was Kepha (which
means a massive rock). Later this name was translated into Greek as Petros
(John 1:42) and into English as Peter. Christ gave Peter alone the "keys of
the kingdom" (Matt. 16:19) and promised that Peter's decisions would be
binding in heaven. He also gave similar power to the other apostles (Matt.
18:18), but only Peter was given the keys, symbols of his authority to rule
the Church on earth in Jesus' absence.
Christ, the Good Shepherd, called Peter to be the chief shepherd of his
Church (John 21:15-17). He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other
apostles in their faith, ensuring that they taught only what was true (Luke
22:31-32). Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making
decisions (Acts 2:1- 41, 15:7-12).
Early Christian writings tell us that Peter's successors, the bishops of
Rome (who from the earliest times have been called by the affectionate title
of "pope," which means "papa"), continued to exercise Peter's ministry in
the Church.
The pope is the successor to Peter as bishop of Rome. The world's other
bishops are successors to the apostles in general.
HOW GOD SPEAKS TO US
As from the first, God speaks to his Church through the Bible and through
sacred Tradition. To make sure we understand him, he guides the Church's
teaching authority-the magisterium-so it always interprets the Bible and
Tradition accurately. This is the gift of infallibility.
Like the three legs on a stool, the Bible, Tradition, and the magisterium
are all necessary for the stability of the Church and to guarantee sound
doctrine.
Sacred Tradition (CCC 75-83)
Sacred Tradition should not be confused with mere traditions of men, which
are more commonly called customs or disciplines. Jesus sometimes condemned
customs or disciplines, but only if they were contrary to God's commands
(Mark 7:8). He never condemned sacred Tradition, and he didn't even condemn
all human tradition.
Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations.
They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings
such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory,
and Mary's perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through
Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary
to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether
it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).
Sacred Tradition should not be confused with customs and disciplines, such
as the rosary, priestly celibacy, and not eating meat on Fridays in Lent.
These are good and helpful things, but they are not doctrines. Sacred
Tradition preserves doctrines first taught by Jesus to the apostles and
later passed down to us through the apostles' successors, the bishops.
Scripture (CCC 101-141)
Scripture, by which we mean the Old and New Testaments, was inspired by God
(2 Tim. 3:16). The Holy Spirit guided the biblical authors to write what he
wanted them to write. Since God is the principal author of the Bible, and
since God is truth itself (John 14:6) and cannot teach anything untrue, the
Bible is free from all error in everything it asserts to be true.
Some Christians claim, "The Bible is all I need," but this notion is not
taught in the Bible itself. In fact, the Bible teaches the contrary idea (2
Pet. 1:20-21, 3:15-16). The "Bible alone" theory was not believed by anyone
in the early Church.
It is new, having arisen only in the 1500s during the Protestant
Reformation. The theory is a "tradition of men" that nullifies the Word of
God, distorts the true role of the Bible, and undermines the authority of
the Church Jesus established (Mark 7:1-8).
Although popular with many "Bible Christian" churches, the "Bible alone"
theory simply does not work in practice. Historical experience disproves it.
Each year we see additional splintering among "Bible-believing" religions.
Today there are tens of thousands of competing denominations, each insisting
its interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. The resulting divisions
have caused untold confusion among millions of sincere but misled
Christians.
Just open up the Yellow Pages of your telephone book and see how many
different denominations are listed, each claiming to go by the "Bible
alone," but no two of them agreeing on exactly what the Bible means.
We know this for sure: The Holy Spirit cannot be the author of this
confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). God cannot lead people to contradictory beliefs
because his truth is one. The conclusion? The "Bible alone" theory must be
false.
The Magisterium (CCC 85-87, 888-892)
Together the pope and the bishops form the teaching authority of the Church,
which is called the magisterium (from the Latin for "teacher"). The
magisterium, guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit, gives us
certainty in matters of doctrine. The Church is the custodian of the Bible
and faithfully and accurately proclaims its message, a task which God has
empowered it to do.
Keep in mind that the Church came before the New Testament, not the New
Testament before the Church. Divinely-inspired members of the Church wrote
the books of the New Testament, just as divinely-inspired writers had
written the Old Testament, and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit to
guard and interpret the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments.
Such an official interpreter is absolutely necessary if we are to understand
the Bible properly. (We all know what the Constitution says, but we still
need a Supreme Court to interpret what it means.)
The magisterium is infallible when it teaches officially because Jesus
promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors
"into all truth" (John 16:12-13).
HOW GOD DISTRIBUTES HIS GIFTS
Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans (John 14:18) but would send the
Holy Spirit to guide and protect us (John 15:26). He gave the sacraments to
heal, feed, and strengthen us. The seven sacraments -baptism, the Eucharist,
penance (also called reconciliation or confession), confirmation, holy
orders, matrimony, and the anointing of the sick-are not just symbols. They
are signs that actually convey God's grace and love.
The sacraments were foreshadowed in the Old Testament by things that did not
actually convey grace but merely symbolized it (circumcision, for example,
prefigured baptism, and the Passover meal prefigured the Eucharist. When
Christ came, he did not do away with symbols of God's grace. He
supernaturalized them, energizing them with grace. He made them more than
symbols.
God constantly uses material things to show his love and power. After all,
matter is not evil. When he created the physical universe, everything God
created was "very good" (Gen. 1:31). He takes such delight in matter that he
even dignified it through his own Incarnation (John 1:14).
During his earthly ministry Jesus healed, fed, and strengthened people
through humble elements such as mud, water, bread, oil, and wine. He could
have performed his miracles directly, but he preferred to use material
things to bestow his grace.
In his first public miracle Jesus turned water into wine, at the request of
his mother, Mary (John 2:1-11). He healed a blind man by rubbing mud on his
eyes (John 9:1-7). He multiplied a few loaves and fish into a meal for
thousands (John 6:5-13). He changed bread and wine into his own body and
blood (Matt. 26:26- 28). Through the sacraments he continues to heal, feed,
and strengthen us.
Baptism (CCC 1213-1284)
Because of original sin, we are born without grace in our souls, so there is
no way for us to have fellowship with God. Jesus became man to bring us into
union with his Father. He said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he
is first born of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5)-this refers to baptism.
Through baptism we are born again, but this time on a spiritual level
instead of a physical level. We are washed in the bath of rebirth (Titus
3:5). We are baptized into Christ's death and therefore share in his
Resurrection (Rom. 6:3-7).
Baptism cleanses us of sins and brings the Holy Spirit and his grace into
our souls (Acts 2:38, 22:16). And the apostle Peter is perhaps the most
blunt of all: "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21). Baptism is the gateway
into the Church.
Penance (CCC 1422-1498)
Sometimes on our journey toward the heavenly promised land we stumble and
fall into sin. God is always ready to lift us up and to restore us to
grace-filled fellowship with him. He does this through the sacrament of
penance (which is also known as confession or reconciliation).
Jesus gave his apostles power and authority to reconcile us to the Father.
They received Jesus' own power to forgive sins when he breathed on them and
said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them,
and whose sins you retain are retained" (John 20:22-23).
Paul notes that "all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself
through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . So, we are
ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us" (2 Cor.
5:18-20). Through confession to a priest, God's minister, we have our sins
forgiven, and we receive grace to help us resist future temptations.
The Eucharist (CCC 1322-1419)
Once we become members of Christ's family, he does not let us go hungry, but
feeds us with his own body and blood through the Eucharist. In the Old
Testament, as they prepared for their journey in the wilderness, God
commanded his people to sacrifice a lamb and sprinkle its blood on their
doorposts, so the Angel of Death would pass by their homes. Then they ate
the lamb to seal their covenant with God.
This lamb prefigured Jesus. He is the real "Lamb of God," who takes away the
sins of the world (John 1:29). Through Jesus we enter into a New Covenant
with God (Luke 22:20), who protects us from eternal death. God's Old
Testament people ate the Passover lamb. Now we must eat the Lamb that is the
Eucharist. Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have
no life within you" (John 6:53).
At the Last Supper he took bread and wine and said, "Take and eat. This is
my body . . . This is my blood which will be shed for you" (Mark 14:22-24).
In this way Jesus instituted the sacrament of the Eucharist, the sacrificial
meal Catholics consume at each Mass.
The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross
occurred "once for all"; it cannot be repeated (Heb. 9:28). Christ does not
"die again" during Mass, but the very same sacrifice that occurred on
Calvary is made present on the altar. That's why the Mass is not "another"
sacrifice, but a participation in the same, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ
on the cross.
Paul reminds us that the bread and the wine really become, by a miracle of
God's grace, the actual body and blood of Jesus: "Anyone who eats and drinks
without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on
himself" (1 Cor. 11:27-29).
After the consecration of the bread and wine, no bread or wine remains on
the altar. Only Jesus himself, under the appearance of bread and wine,
remains.
Confirmation (CCC 1285-1321)
God strengthens our souls in another way, through the sacrament of
confirmation. Even though Jesus' disciples received grace before his
Resurrection, on Pentecost the Holy Spirit came to strengthen them with new
graces for the difficult work ahead.
They went out and preached the gospel fearlessly and carried out the mission
Christ had given them. Later, they laid hands on others to strengthen them
as well (Acts 8:14-17). Through confirmation you too are strengthened to
meet the spiritual challenges in your life.
Matrimony (CCC 1601-1666)
Most people are called to the married life. Through the sacrament of
matrimony God gives special graces to help married couples with life's
difficulties, especially to help them raise their children as loving
followers of Christ.
Marriage involves three parties: the bride, the groom, and God. When two
Christians receive the sacrament of matrimony, God is with them, witnessing
and blessing their marriage covenant. A sacramental marriage is permanent;
only death can break it (Mark 10:1-12, Rom. 7:2-3, 1 Cor. 7:10-11). This
holy union is a living symbol of the unbreakable relationship between Christ
and his Church (Eph. 5:21-33).
Holy Orders (CCC 1536-1600)
Others are called to share specially in Christ's priesthood. In the Old
Covenant, even though Israel was a kingdom of priests (Exod. 19:6), the Lord
called certain men to a special priestly ministry (Exod. 19: 22). In the New
Covenant, even though Christians are a kingdom of priests (1 Pet. 2:9),
Jesus calls certain men to a special priestly ministry (Rom. 15:15-16).
This sacrament is called holy orders. Through it priests are ordained and
thus empowered to serve the Church (2 Tim. 1:6-7) as pastors, teachers, and
spiritual fathers who heal, feed, and strengthen God's people-most
importantly through preaching and the administration of the sacraments.
Anointing of the Sick (CCC 1499-1532)
Priests care for us when we are physically ill. They do this through the
sacrament known as the anointing of the sick. The Bible instructs us, "Is
anyone among you suffering? He should pray. . . . Is any one among you sick?
He should summon the presbyters [priests] of the Church, and they should
pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the
prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up.
If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven" (Jas. 5:14-15). Anointing
of the sick not only helps us endure illness, but it cleanses our souls and
helps us prepare to meet God.
TALKING WITH GOD AND HIS SAINTS
One of the most important activities for a Catholic is prayer. Without it
there can be no true spiritual life. Through personal prayer and the
communal prayer of the Church, especially the Mass, we worship and praise
God, we express sorrow for our sins, and we intercede on behalf of others (1
Tim. 2:1-4). Through prayer we grow in our relationship with Christ and with
members of God's family (CCC 2663-2696).
This family includes all members of the Church, whether on earth, in heaven,
or in purgatory. Since Jesus has only one body, and since death has no power
to separate us from Christ (Rom. 8:3-8), Christians who are in heaven or
who, before entering heaven, are being purified in purgatory by God's love
(1 Cor. 3:12-15) are still part of the Body of Christ (CCC 962).
Jesus said the second greatest commandment is to "love your neighbor as
yourself" (Matt. 22:39). Those in heaven love us more intensely than they
ever could have loved us while on earth. They pray for us constantly (Rev.
5:8), and their prayers are powerful (Jas. 5:16, CCC 956, 2683, 2692).
Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and
their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ's role as sole
Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us we follow
Paul's instructions: "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and
thanksgivings be made for everyone," for "this is good and pleasing to God
our Savior" (1 Tim. 2:1-4).
All members of the Body of Christ are called to help one another through
prayer (CCC 2647). Mary's prayers are especially effective on our behalf
because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1-11).
God gave Mary a special role (CCC 490-511, 963- 975). He saved her from all
sin (Luke 1:28, 47), made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42),
and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48). At the end of her life
he took her, body and soul, into heaven-an image of our own resurrection at
the end of the world (Rev. 12:1-2).
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF LIFE?
Old catechisms asked, "Why did God make you?" The answer: "God made me to
know him, to love him, and to serve him in this world and to be happy with
him forever in the next." Here, in just 26 words, is the whole reason for
our existence. Jesus answered the question even more briefly: "I came so
that [you] might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).
God's plan for you is simple. Your loving Father wants to give you all good
things-especially eternal life. Jesus died on the cross to save us all from
sin and the eternal separation from God that sin causes (CCC 599-623). When
he saves us, he makes us part of his Body, which is the Church (1 Cor.
12:27-30). We thus become united with him and with Christians everywhere (on
earth, in heaven, in purgatory).
What You Must Do to Be Saved
Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by
God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we
"earn" (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that
separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has
chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).
The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible
teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what
"Bible Christians" teach; see Jas. 2:24).
When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship
with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works,
earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live
out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).
Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love
please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7,
Gal. 6:6-10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in
faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to
obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we
offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6-11, Gal. 6:6-10, Matt.
25:34-40).
Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his
commandments. "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' but do not do the things I
command?" (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21-23, 19:16-21).
We do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 9:16),
but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with
God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be
rewarded with eternal life (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8-9).
Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to
desire and to work" (Phil. 2:13). John explained that "the way we may be
sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, 'I know
him,' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in
him" (1 John 2:3-4, 3:19-24, 5:3-4).
Since no gift can be forced on the recipient-gifts always can be
rejected-even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of
salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5-6, Rom.
11:22-23, 1 Cor. 15:1-2; CCC 1854-1863). Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is
death" (Rom. 6:23).
Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He
would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them
from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21).
Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according
to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality
through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who
selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" (Rom. 2:6-8).
Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849-1850). We can avoid sins by
habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to
keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the
Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.
Are You Guaranteed Heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians,
regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once
they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The
problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian
teaching.
Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with
him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we
persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12).
If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words,
Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).
The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation
(God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have
faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible
does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no
absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See,
then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but
God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you
too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet.
2:20-21).
Note that Paul includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his
kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing
it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care
not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12).
If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been "saved," you
should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for
my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am 'working out my salvation in
fear and trembling' (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace
that is working in me."
THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE
All the alternatives to Catholicism are showing themselves to be inadequate:
the worn-out secularism that is everywhere around us and that no one any
longer finds satisfying, the odd cults and movements that offer temporary
community but no permanent home, even the other, incomplete brands of
Christianity. As our tired world becomes ever more desperate, people are
turning to the one alternative they never really had considered: the
Catholic Church. They are coming upon truth in the last place they expected
to find it.
Always Attractive
How can this be? Why are so many people seriously looking at the Catholic
Church for the first time? Something is pulling them toward it. That
something is truth.
This much we know: They are not considering the claims of the Church out of
a desire to win public favor. Catholicism, at least nowadays, is never
popular. You cannot win a popularity contest by being a faithful Catholic.
Our fallen world rewards the clever, not the good. If a Catholic is praised,
it is for the worldly skills he demonstrates, not for his Christian virtues.
Although people try to avoid the hard doctrinal and moral truths the
Catholic Church offers them (because hard truths demand that lives be
changed), they nevertheless are attracted to the Church. When they listen to
the pope and the bishops in union with him, they hear words with the ring of
truth-even if they find that truth hard to live by.
When they contemplate the history of the Catholic Church and the lives of
its saints, they realize there must be something special, maybe something
supernatural, about an institution that can produce holy people such as St.
Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Mother Teresa.
When they step off a busy street and into the aisles of an apparently empty
Catholic church, they sense not a complete emptiness, but a presence. They
sense that Someone resides inside, waiting to comfort them.
They realize that the persistent opposition that confronts the Catholic
Church-whether from non-believers or "Bible Christians" or even from people
who insist on calling themselves Catholics-is a sign of the Church's divine
origin (John 15:18-21). And they come to suspect that the Catholic Church,
of all things, is the wave of the future.
Incomplete Christianity Is Not Enough
Over the last few decades many Catholics have left the Church, many dropping
out of religion entirely, many joining other churches. But the traffic has
not been in only one direction.
The traffic toward Rome has increased rapidly. Today we are seeing more than
a hundred and fifty thousand converts enter the Catholic Church each year in
the United States, and in some other places, like the continent of Africa,
there are more than a million converts to the Catholic faith each year.
People of no religion, lapsed or inactive Catholics, and members of other
Christian churches are "coming home to Rome."
They are attracted to the Church for a variety of reasons, but the chief
reason they convert is the chief reason you should be Catholic: The solid
truth of the Catholic faith.
Our separated brethren hold much Christian truth, but not all of it. We
might compare their religion to a stained glass window in which some of the
original panes were lost and have been replaced by opaque glass: Something
that was present at the beginning is now gone, and something that does not
fit has been inserted to fill up the empty space. The unity of the original
window has been marred.
When, centuries ago, they split away from the Catholic Church, the
theological ancestors of these Christians eliminated some authentic beliefs
and added new ones of their own making. The forms of Christianity they
established are really incomplete Christianity.
Only the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and only it has been able to
preserve all Christian truth without any error-and great numbers of people
are coming to see this.
YOUR TASKS AS A CATHOLIC
Your tasks as a Catholic, no matter what your age, are three:
Know your Catholic faith. You cannot live your faith if you do not know it,
and you cannot share with others what you do not first make your own (CCC
429). Learning your Catholic faith takes some effort, but it is effort well
spent because the study is, quite literally, infinitely rewarding.
Live your Catholic faith. Your Catholic faith is a public thing. It is not
meant to be left behind when you leave home (CCC 2472). But be forewarned:
Being a public Catholic involves risk and loss. You will find some doors
closed to you. You will lose some friends. You will be considered an
outsider. But, as a consolation, remember our Lord's words to the
persecuted: "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven" (Matt.
5:12).
Spread your Catholic faith. Jesus Christ wants us to bring the whole world
into captivity to the truth, and the truth is Jesus himself, who is "the
way, and the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). Spreading the faith is a task
not only for bishops, priests, and religious-it is a task for all Catholics
(CCC 905).
Just before his Ascension, our Lord told his apostles, "Go, therefore, and
make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and
of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have
commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20).
If we want to observe all that Jesus commanded, if we want to believe all he
taught, we must follow him through his Church. This is our great
challenge-and our great privilege.
Joseph Geloso
wrote:
>If you are saved you have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus,
>therefore when God looks at you He does not see your sins (the Bible
>says so),
The Bible does not say that. It says the Blood of Christ cleanses us
from unrighteousness. The Lamb of God takes away our sins. Therefore,
we no longer have them. So God sees us as we truly are -- without our
sins, because He has taken them away. If we then presume to sin again,
He sees that reality, too. You can't fool God.
>he sees a righteous person, therefore you don't need anyone
>to intercede, you can pray directly to Jesus.
Pied Piper
THE first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which claimant,
among the many contending for the title, was the true Church, and which
doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the
apostolic succession of the claimants.
In its concrete form, apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching
back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops can have
their lineage of predecessors traced back to the time of the apostles,
something which is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of whom do
not even claim to have bishops).
The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated
in the Bible. To make sure that the teachings of the apostles would be
passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy: "[W]hat you
have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be
able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the
first four generations of apostolic succession--his own generation,
Timothy's generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation
they in turn will teach.
The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly
appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics
had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their
own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on the Scriptures. Clearly,
something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of
doctrine in these cases.
Thus the early Church historian, J.N.D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes:
"[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found?
. . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally
to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation.
. . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely
public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors,
and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the
Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).
For the early Fathers, "the identity of the oral tradition with the original
revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great
sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is
supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church,
and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church's bishops are .
. . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed 'an infallible charism of
truth'" (ibid.).
Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced
of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture.
The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it
impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field" (ibid., 41).
Pope Clement I
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed
their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and
deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons
had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through
our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop.
For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they
appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the
further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should
succeed to their ministry." (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [A.D.
80]).
Hegesippus
"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus.
And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In
each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is
proclaimed by the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs 4:22:1 [ A.D.
180]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know
the truth, to contemplate the Tradition of the Apostles which has been made
known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to
enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their
successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything
like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such as volume as this the
successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in
whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through
blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by
pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most
ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most
glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul--that church which has the Tradition and
the with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the
apostles. For with this Church, because if its superior origin, all churches
must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her
that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition"
(ibid., 3:3:2).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many
who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of
the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on
earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly
suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things
which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed
down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches
testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the
present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth
among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles,
like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most
copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever
will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case?
Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us,
should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the
apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and
clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church--those who,
as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who,
together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible
charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is
also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive
succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either
as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and
self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and
vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient
organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation
of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which
succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found
everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).
Tertullian
"[The Apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other
churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the
seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become
churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem
themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every
sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its
classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so
great, comprise but the one primitive church, [founded] by the apostles,
from which they all [spring]. In this way all are primitive, and all are
apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity by their " (Demurrer
Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).
Tertullian
"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must
here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those
very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel
to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the
same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic
churches--those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for
truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the
apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all
doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth
of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we
demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the
rule, has its origin in the Tradition of the Apostles, and whether all other
doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).
Tertullian
"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their
origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to
have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of
the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their
churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due
succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop
shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the
apostles or of apostolic men--a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with
the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches
transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that
Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes
Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).
Tertullian
"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list
for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine,
after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches],
will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its
author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles
would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).
Tertullian
"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our
apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be
apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove
themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful
relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with
apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of
their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without.
For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope]
Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of
Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the
priesthood, the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the
Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and
despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For
he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the
Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).
Firmilian
"[Pope] Stephen . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends
that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the
Church were laid [Matt. 16:18] . . . Stephen . . . announces that he holds
by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian's Letters
74[75]):17 [A.D. 253]).
Jerome
"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in
succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of
Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters
14:8 [A.D. 396]).
Augustine
"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the
Catholic Church's] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me
here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented
by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests,
from the very see of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his
resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15-17], up to
the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic,
which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so
many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called
'Catholic,' when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none
of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against
the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation' 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
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duke lebourgeois
<noma...@NOSPAMletigre.freeserve.cospam.uk> wrote:
Well, you easily show yourself as 100% ignorant of the RCC. Why is it
you people come forward with a completely backward story and think you
know what's going on.
All you're doing is embarassing yourself.
duke
Sam Stevenson
"Bob Cross" <bob...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:90154d$ck0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <mqt22t0imcu9g0l24...@4ax.com>,
> 9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:29:14 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >The so-called prayer you included proves you are following a false
> religion.
> > >According to the Bible, which you obviously don't believe is the
> inerrant
> > >Word of God, Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. NOT MARY!!!
> > >
> >
> > Correct - Jesus answers prayers. Mary prays to jesus for us. 8-P
> >
> > We can play semantics all night - prayer = worship, intercession =
> > answering prayer, etc. Point is we *ask* Mary to pray for us. Sure,
> > the words "Pray to Mary" are used but truth is Mary listens to our
> > prayers, I love talking to her, and she actually has been quite a
> > mother for me. Her prayers for me are very important.
> >
> > Mary's intercession is her prayers for us to her son. And as you
> > know, the prayers of a righteous man are powerful. Well, I took
> > Christ at his word there. Between Mary & Augustine I've got plenty of
> > prayers for me. =) And from two righteous people.
> >
> > -9v
> If you are saved you have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus,
> therefore when God looks at you He does not see your sins (the Bible
> says so), he sees a righteous person, therefore you don't need anyone
> to intercede, you can pray directly to Jesus.
> Bob
>
Yes, and . . . ? The Apostle Paul presumably understood this, and yet he
asked others to pray for him. I, for one, certainly don't believe that I'm
in a better position than Paul to judge whether asking others to pray for us
is a good thing to do; you are free to disagree.
Bob Cross
"Sam Stevenson" <st...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7%gV5.14510$yP6....@news2.atl...
somone other than God.
Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut
thy door, pray to thy Father...
Bob
Scout Lady
> Priest: The Lord be with you.
> Congregation: And with your spirit.
> Priest: Let us lift our hearts.
> Congregation: We lift them up to the Lord.
> Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord.
> Congregation: It is right and just.
>
Cathy
> Carroll
>
>
>
Pied Piper
It is obvious Bob is incapable of coherent thought.
Pax
Karen H Jarvis
>On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:45:37 -0000, "Martyn"
><noma...@NOSPAMletigre.freeserve.cospam.uk> wrote:
>
>Well, you easily show yourself as 100% ignorant of the RCC. Why is it
>you people come forward with a completely backward story and think you
>know what's going on.
>
>All you're doing is embarassing yourself.
>
--
Karen
My knowledge is no match for your ignorance.
Terry Lee Doetzel
confused with the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which paints Jesus as a
child smiting everyone who stands in his way.
You can find both texts simply by using a search engine. Both have been
posted on the internet somewhere, along with other apocrypha.
Nicholas
Catholic church is evil, they always come back with LIES designed to try and
belittle research you do. Why? They can't PROVE what you post is wrong, so
they LIE about it. And seeing how this is a church that DOES embrace lies,
those in it WILL believe the lie over the Truth...
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in
them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they
might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed
not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
However, there ARE some trapped in this church that DO look at the Truth
posted. It is those souls I post for as I am sure you do as well. The rest
of the liars, swine's, and dogs? Let them yap all they like, it WON'T change
the Truth anymore than disbelief stop the RAIN in Noah's day.
--
Presents of God ministry
--------------------------
Devastatingly accurate prophecies authenticated with
historic facts confirming Antichrist resides in Vatican!
http://www.remnantofgod.com/~nicholas
(The "major" prophetic facts... Summarized)
http://www.remnantofgod.com/~nicholas/666-CHAR.htm
UNLIMITED WEBSPACE! www.remnantofgod.com
Truth is truth.
...Nicholas
"Stephen Korsman" <skor...@global.co.za> wrote in message
news:8vrcr7$gb1$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Bob
>
> If only you had done a little research and gotten up to date on your
history
> and understanding of Catholic teaching, you might be able to make a
sensible
> argument. But, since you didn't, your article here is riddled with
> historical errors and misrpresentations, so I guess it doesn't really
> address Catholicism at all, only what YOU think Catholicism is. And since
> you obviously don't understand Catholicism or know much history, I guess
we
> can dismiss this drivel as irrelevant to our lives as Christians.
>
> God bless,
> Stephen
>
> --
> --
> Stephen Korsman
> skor...@global.co.za
> http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/index.html
> For the sick and for the aged,
> for our dear ones far away,
> for the hearts that mourn in secret,
> all who need our prayers today,
> for the faithful gone before us,
> may the Blessed Virgin pray.
> - VSS Coles, 1845-1929
>
>
> Bob Cross <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8vr9t0$1e6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > Roman Catholicism
>
> ... drivel deleted ...
>
>
>
Bob Cross
Since they reject God's Word as the final authority it's almost impossible
to open their eyes to God's Truth. Like all cults they follow the false
teachings of men. It's hard to understand why otherwise intelligent people
would believe so many lies. I know they are sincere but they are being duped
by Satan.
Bob
"Nicholas" <nich...@remnantofgod.com> wrote in message
news:aYvV5.836$xJ3....@news.goodnet.com...
Stephen Korsman
Scout Lady <scou...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:904l7i$48s4$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
I feel sad when I see or hear things like that said. Sad in a nostalgic way
... so many people I know love the Latin Mass / Tridentine Mass / Old Rite
Mass / Liturgy of Pope St Pius V (I think)
I was born in 1975, so I missed the excitement. I have never been to
anything BUT a Novus Ordo / New Mass / Liturgy of Pope Paul VI ... I've been
to a Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, English, Swazi, French, Italian, Dutch, and
Portugese.
I've read the text, and it seems beautiful, but I have never had the
opportunity to attend one. I would love to.
Stephen Korsman
We don't ask Mary to pray to anyone other than God. So I guess it's okay
then.
Thanks for clearing that up !
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skor...@global.co.za
Carolingian
"Scout Lady" <scou...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:904l7i$48s4$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Carolingian" <fri...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> news:C3E304B2FD45D9B9.E9A033A1...@lp.airnews.net...
> > Priest: The Lord be with you.
> > Congregation: And with your spirit.
> > Priest: Let us lift our hearts.
> > Congregation: We lift them up to the Lord.
> > Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord.
> > Congregation: It is right and just.
> >
> Memories, I still occasionally slip up and say things the former way.
>
> > Carroll
I was thinking the same thing as I wrote it. I even thought about the
spoken Latin.
Carroll
Carolingian
>
> "9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:55:49 -0500, "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the sacraments
> to
> > >be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go
> through
> > >some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
> >
> > You think that salvation means not having to pay for sins?
> >
> > I think not. Christ died so we could be saved, not so we could just
> > repent and get away with murder.
> >
> > Also, purgatory comes from the original, pre-luther bible.
>
> I'm having a discussion with a TOTAL MORON!!
You have a problem with name calling, Bob. You need to think about how
Jesus would act prior to your post. BTW, purgatory is a belief that started
with the Jews and has been passed down to the Church.
Bob Cross
>
> Bob Cross <bob...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:904id6$6bj$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > "Sam Stevenson" <st...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:7%gV5.14510$yP6....@news2.atl...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Cross" <bob...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > news:90154d$ck0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > In article <mqt22t0imcu9g0l24...@4ax.com>,
> > > > 9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote:
The following is from the Catholic.org website, so either you are lying or
you have accepted the lies of your church.
FATIMA PRAYER: Most Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
- I adore thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body,
Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the
tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages,
sacrileges and indifferences whereby He is offended. And through
the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate
Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.
MEMORARE: Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was it
known that anyone who fled to Your protection, implored Your help, or
sought Your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this
confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To You we
come; before You we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word
Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in Your mercy, hear and answer
us. Amen.
THE SALVE REGINA (Hail Holy Queen): Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most
gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this
our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O
clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
PRAYER TO OUR LADY, ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN: Immaculate Virgin, Mother of
Jesus and our Mother, we believe in your triumphant assumption into heaven
where the angels and saints acclaim you as Queen. We join them in praising
you and bless the Lord who raised you above all creatures. With them we
offer you our devotion and love. We are confident that you watch over our
daily efforts and needs, and we take comfort from our faith in the coming
resurrection. We look to you, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. After
this earthly life, show us Jesus, the blest fruit of your womb, O kind, O
loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary. Amen.
Bob
Bob Cross
>
> "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8vs7r7$mi1$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > "9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> > news:sl332tonc3apbiulj...@4ax.com...
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yeah, then why does your church teach one must also keep the
sacraments
> > to
> > > >be saved and even that's not enough, they teach you still need to go
> > through
> > > >some stupid cleansing they call purgatory. More BS!!
> > >
> > > You think that salvation means not having to pay for sins?
> > >
> > > I think not. Christ died so we could be saved, not so we could just
> > > repent and get away with murder.
> > >
> > > Also, purgatory comes from the original, pre-luther bible.
> >
> > I'm having a discussion with a TOTAL MORON!!
>
>
> You have a problem with name calling, Bob. You need to think about how
> Jesus would act prior to your post. BTW, purgatory is a belief that
started
> with the Jews and has been passed down to the Church.
the Messiah? Remember Jesus fulfilled the Law.
Just for my knowledge please tell me where I can find the references to
purgatory in the Bible.
Bob
Alan Ferris
It is alright. Karen was just making a joke at Duke. He claimed it
did not exist.
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the only colour is black -
the only sound
the broken bell
THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
arc's Gallery: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/xalan/rogue.htm
ICQ UIN: 12811297
Karen
Alan Ferris <xa...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> Terry Lee Doetzel <tld...@mail.usask.ca> wrote ...
> >The Gospel of Thomas is a rather interesting Gnostic text. Not to be
> >confused with the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which paints Jesus as a
> >child smiting everyone who stands in his way.
> >
> >You can find both texts simply by using a search engine. Both have
been
> >posted on the internet somewhere, along with other apocrypha.
>
> It is alright. Karen was just making a joke at Duke. He claimed it
> did not exist.
>
Karen
Kelly
Bob, please read this entire page:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ69.HTM
You will be surprised at all the scripture.
Kelly
>
> "Stephen Korsman" <skor...@global.co.za> wrote in message
> news:9064se$gjv$2...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >
> > >
> > > "Sam Stevenson" <st...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:7%gV5.14510$yP6....@news2.atl...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > In article
<mqt22t0imcu9g0l24...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > 9 volts <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote:
<kit...@yahoo.com>
Thanks, Bob, for posting all those beautiful prayers! Any
power Mary has comes from God. Anything Mary grants
also comes from God. He gives her the power. She, as
always, continues to do His will.
Bob Cross
> >
> > "Carolingian" <fri...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> >
> news:789C903C192FF078.8265EA6F...@lp.airnew
> s.net...
> > >
> > > "Bob Cross" <kit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8vs7r7$mi1$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > >
> > > > "9 volts" <9vo...@voltage.gom> wrote in message
> > > > news:sl332tonc3apbiulj...@4ax.com...
> <kit...@yahoo.com>
Bob
Kelly
Oh, I'm sorry..I forgot to remind you to remove your
prot blinders first. (sigh)
Of course, that's all you'll see when you read it without
an open heart & mind.
Why don't you tell us what is twisted & how it should
be interptreted then?
Bob Cross
was God, not just to ask her to influence Jesus.
Bob
Kelly
Bob,
In knowing that you don't truly understand Catholicism, how can
you say with any authority, that "Catholics pray to Mary as if
she
were God"? We know Mary isn't God. Any power Mary has
comes from God. When we pray to God, we can offer thanksgiving
for all of creation. We can also praise Him for all of creation.
We
can adore Him, for He is God. When we pray to Mary, we pray
as in a conversation. We can also honor her & thank Her for her
Son. We can also pray to God conversationally, but we should
of course, adore Him & give thanks as well. To pray is not always
to worship, that's where so many get confused about what
Catholics
are doing when they pray to someone other than God.
Sister Liguori
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > If only you had done a little research and gotten up to date on your
>> history
>> > and understanding of Catholic teaching, you might be able to make a
>> sensible
>> > argument. But, since you didn't, your article here is riddled with
>> > historical errors and misrpresentations, so I guess it doesn't really
>> > address Catholicism at all, only what YOU think Catholicism is. And
>since
>> > you obviously don't understand Catholicism or know much history, I guess
>> we
>> > can dismiss this drivel as irrelevant to our lives as Christians.
>> >
>> > For the sick and for the aged,
>> > for our dear ones far away,
>> > for the hearts that mourn in secret,
>> > all who need our prayers today,
>> > for the faithful gone before us,
>> > may the Blessed Virgin pray.
>> > - VSS Coles, 1845-1929
>> >
>> >
>> > > Roman Catholicism
>> >
>> > ... drivel deleted ...
>> >
>> >
The Pope has decreed it, and the Mother Superior agrees.
Any faults found with the Roman Catholic Church are the cause of the
protestants.
Str. Liguori
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Screw the Church
<Sister....@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
>How utterly disgraceful. The Roman Catholic Church is perfect in EVERY way.
>The Pope has decreed it, and the Mother Superior agrees.
>Any faults found with the Roman Catholic Church are the cause of the
>protestants.
>
>Str. Liguori
You're becoming a better troll.
Joseph Geloso
Joseph Geloso
nice to see you posting them.
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:52:54 -0500, "Bob Cross" <bob...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
Joseph Geloso
wrote:
>Nicholas,
>Since they reject God's Word as the final authority it's almost impossible
>to open their eyes to God's Truth.
God's Word = God's Truth, which He willed to reveal to man. We accept
ALL of God's Word, the living, breathing Apostolic Tradition (2
Thessalonians 2:15). Because the letter, taken by itself, kills
whereas the Spirit gives life. We accept God's Word as the final
authority, just not YOUR words, added to His Word so as to interpret
it falsely, as Saint Peter warned (2 Peter 3:16).
The most ridiculous thing a person can ever believe is Sola Scriptura,
because it is one of the few absurdities that actually refutes itself.
So strange that it has lasted, but, I think P. T. Barnum knew why.
Bob Cross
"Joseph Geloso" <jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a2728f8...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> Thank you, Bob. The prayers below are all beautiful, and true. It is
> nice to see you posting them.
Bob