Christianity v. Socialism/Communism
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
completely missed the truths of Christianity." In order to shed some
light on how much socialism and Christianity have in common here's a
response I wrote I while back to another Orthodox communist
sympathizer.
Regardless of what flavor "socialism" happens to be, whether it's the
more "mild" form (which is responsible for the rise of both radical
socialism and communism) or the "deadly" enslaving form, it still does
not lead represent the so-called "socialism" that Christianity
envisions. The Chrisitan "community" and "sharing" within a parish or
local church, within the context of Christ's teaching, full of
humility, self-sacrifice, personal responsibility and charity is 100%
different in kind and type than the type of socialism you seem to be
confusing it with.
Left to themselves ALL forms of socialism find as their ultimate goal
communism. So while you may be right that some forms of so-called
"social democracies" are still able to survive, they do so precisely
because of the opposition of a sufficiently large number of citizens
that still act as a barrier between the government's intrusive and
oppressive tendencies and the freedom of the people.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that capitalism is the answer by
any means. At we all know capitalism has many and varried faults of
its own. However, at least in a capitalistic republic, like the
United States, with a Constitution and a Bill of Rights backed by an
armed citizenry, our God given rights of free religious expression and
practice are much better protected than in any other form of gov't, at
least for now.
Both socialism and communism are secular forms of a CORRUPTED and
distorted ideology which far too many Christians mistake it for the
real thing. And since I have seen and felt the results of such
ideologies within my own family and have seen the suffering of so many
million others, we can safely assume that this is not what Christ
envisioned when He called on us to sell everything and follow Him.
Even in the US liberal thinking and intolerance for Christian beliefs
have already found their way into many aspects of our gov't and social
institutions despite all the freedom we have. But at least in this
country enough people with strong moral beliefs and Christian values
will stand between the oppressive forces of secular humanism and its
offsprings: socialism & communism. At least in the US we the people
will be able to defend for a little while longer our freedoms, before
this society also succubms to the deadly lies of humanism and
secularism.
You shall know them by their fruits. Communism = 100+ million dead,
3+ billion enslaved, terrorized and submitted fully to gov't
authority.
As Orthodox Christians we all understand and accept the fact that NO
FORM of EARTHLY GOV"T can ever bring about utopia on earth.
But, given the choice between socialism/communism and a
democratic-capitalistic society, having experienced and lived under
both, I would NEVER choose socialism or communism under any form
because I have seen far too many examples of what the ultimate result
is.
baron...@unitedstates.com
me prophet and student of history - what is the ultimate goal capitalism
finds for itself? (and us?) Huh?
I take it you are a big fan of the bunker mentality. I live in the
Kaiserbunker here in Dresden - come join me sometime for a good cry.
We'll commisserate about things. All is lost. Sob-sob-sob!
And where are all these people with these strong moral beliefs and
Christian values? In Las Vegas? The multi-billion $ liquor industry?
The multi-billion $ mental health profession? The multi-billion $
illegal drug industry? The multi-billion $ porn industry? The
multi-billion $ divorce industry? In the multi-billion $ Nanny industry
(because we're too busy worshipping things and money to raise our own
kids)? In Blanco, TX? In Waco, TX? In Washington? You tell me, tiger!
You got that one right, baby! We DO know them by their fruits!
And if you want to run the numbers on who's killed who - you better get
some new batteries for the old TI.
And I guess you opinion only goes as far as your experience. Too bad you
ain't Colored or Cherokee. Then you might have something to Crow about.
Baron Kevin
(Who can't WAIT to get to heaven, 'cause then he'll finally get to own
something - if you believe this NG webmaster...)
In article <38209137...@enews.newsguy.com>,
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
>
> Left to themselves ALL forms of socialism find as their ultimate goal
> communism.
> But at least in this country enough people with strong moral beliefs
and Christian values will stand between the oppressive forces of
secular humanism and its offsprings: socialism & communism. At least in
the US we the people will be able to defend for a little while longer
our freedoms, before this society also succubms to the deadly lies of
humanism and secularism.
>
> You shall know them by their fruits. Communism = 100+ million dead,
> 3+ billion enslaved, terrorized and submitted fully to gov't
> authority.
> As Orthodox Christians we all understand and accept the fact that NO
> FORM of EARTHLY GOV"T can ever bring about utopia on earth.
> But, given the choice between socialism/communism and a
> democratic-capitalistic society, having experienced and lived under
> both, I would NEVER choose socialism or communism under any form
> because I have seen far too many examples of what the ultimate result
> is.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
R. V. Gronoff
<webm...@orthodoxnet.com> a écrit dans le message :
38209137...@enews.newsguy.com...
> This post is for Mr. evagrius who has accused me saying: "You have
> completely missed the truths of Christianity." In order to shed some
> light on how much socialism and Christianity have in common here's a
> response I wrote I while back to another Orthodox communist
> sympathizer.
>
>
>
> As Orthodox Christians we all understand and accept the fact that NO
> FORM of EARTHLY GOV'T can ever bring about utopia on earth.
> But, given the choice between socialism/communism and a
> democratic-capitalistic society, having experienced and lived under
> both, I would NEVER choose socialism or communism under any form
> because I have seen far too many examples of what the ultimate result
> is.
>
Sure. But some try to enhance the poorest people's lives. Basically, true
socialism is the universalization of saint Martin's act towards the beggar.
Like true christianity, true socialism is something always new, always still
to come. And it supposes a kind of conversion, too: to limit my own profit
to the point it doesnt' cause anyone else's impoverishment.
The big sin is, in my opinion, that mainstream christianity has always seen
socialism as a concurrent, and has demonized it. Had more christians
supported the idea of social justice, the gulag would have never existed.
Please, read again Simone Weil and Charles Péguy.
Vassili R. Gronoff
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
<regis....@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
>
><webm...@orthodoxnet.com> a écrit dans le message :
>38209137...@enews.newsguy.com...
>> This post is for Mr. evagrius who has accused me saying: "You have
>> completely missed the truths of Christianity." In order to shed some
>> light on how much socialism and Christianity have in common here's a
>> response I wrote I while back to another Orthodox communist
>> sympathizer.
>>
>>
>(snip)
>>
>> As Orthodox Christians we all understand and accept the fact that NO
>> FORM of EARTHLY GOV'T can ever bring about utopia on earth.
>> But, given the choice between socialism/communism and a
>> democratic-capitalistic society, having experienced and lived under
>> both, I would NEVER choose socialism or communism under any form
>> because I have seen far too many examples of what the ultimate result
>> is.
>>
>
>
>Sure. But some try to enhance the poorest people's lives. Basically, true
>socialism is the universalization of saint Martin's act towards the beggar.
Maybe in theory it is, but in practice it winds up enslaving people
and makes them fully dependent on the gov't.
>
>Like true christianity, true socialism is something always new, always still
>to come. And it supposes a kind of conversion, too: to limit my own profit
>to the point it doesnt' cause anyone else's impoverishment.
Only new in perception, but the same corrupt ideology at its core.
Theory sounds wonderful, almost utopia on earth. Experience and
history however shows us that most pure socialist societies (with some
exceptions re: those that still have some form of democracy to
counteract it) wind up being communist and oppressive in the end. Not
only that the millions of lives it crushes are a testament to how
Satan uses Christian sounding doctrines to deceive and kill the
innocent and gullible.
Why is it that after almost 100 years of experimentation, all flavors
of socialism wind up causing more harm than good? Why is it that we
Americans seem to think that we know just the right mix of socialism
and democracy, when so many other cultures have paid such a dear price
for playing with fire?
>
>The big sin is, in my opinion, that mainstream christianity has always seen
>socialism as a concurrent, and has demonized it. Had more christians
>supported the idea of social justice, the gulag would have never existed.
Social justice can only make sense when a society recognizes the
authority of GOD and the immesurable value of an individual. No
socialist/communist society has EVER placed a higher value on human
life than a democracy based on Judeo-Christian ideals like the US.
(except of course in the Byzantine Empire)
Socialism and communism when evaluated in real and objective terms are
truly alien to Christianity! A superficial and simplistic evaluation
of this corrupt ideology would like us to believe that Christianity =
Communism, that is simply not true. History tells us that even some
great Russian Orthodox thinkers during the Russian revolution made
that deadly mistake and drew such parallels; only to see the true
fruits of the tree of communism later on. Many of them committed
suicide when faced with how many Christians they mislead and to what
ultimate conclusion the communist revolution came to. Can't we learn
from the lessons of the past? Have we not learned what happens to
Christians when communism encounters the Orthodox Church or any other
religious faith? Must we walk down the same road and wind up paying
the same price again?
Here are 2 quotes from Fr. Seraphim Rose that should make all of us
ponder just how dangerous it is to play with communism and its corrupt
ideology:
"One has to realize what communism is, not merely a power-mad
political regime, but an ideological-religious system whose aim is to
overthrow and supplant all other systems, most of all Christianity."
"Communism specifically attacked the lands which had most nearly
retained their ancient Christian traditions - Russia, Romania,
Bulgaria, Greece, etc. Propaganda portrayed Bolshevism as a
political/social uprising, which is what gullible individuals
throughout the world still imagine it to have been. But the
"revolution" was far more than this -it was actually a battle against
Christianity."
- Father Seraphim Rose
sp...@erols.com
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not
sign your posts. you have a pretense (and it might be true) of being
Orthodox and have web pages which are mostly conservative politics written
by Protestants. You purport the following:
About Us "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:14-16) We are an Orthodox Christian web site that has been launched in order to help spread the Orthodox Faith and Truths and also provide news, information and commentary from a conservative Christian perspective to both Orthodox and non-Orthodox visitors. The site was created and is run by conservative Orthodox Christian lay men and women from different Orthodox Christian jurisdictions with help and advice from clergy. The primary goals of our site are: (1) to better educate and inform Orthodox Christians about the Orthodox faith, teachings and worship (2) provide conservative Christian news, reporting, articles and commentary on current issues and events (3) bring the message of the Orthodox Faith to all non-Orthodox and to the entire English speaking world Our site contains news, articles and information on the Orthodox Christian Faith and Church, worship, wisdom, and life. We also feature current events, news, historical discussions, articles and commentary from a Christian perspective. Furthermore we provide a conservative and objective perspective on current issues and topics that Christians deal with in a secular world. We are constantly gathering as much material and contacts as possible. We are compiling a comprehensive list of both electronic and people resources which can contribute to the site. We welcome and encourage everyone to submit any information and/or content they may have created or gathered. We have a responsibility as Orthodox Christians to spread the truth and richness of our faith to all of mankind. Let us follow Christ's teaching and preach the Good News to a world that's falling apart at the seams. Let us fight the good fight and bring the fullness of the Orthodox Faith to all those souls that have not been blessed with knowing the True Faith.
I personally find your mixing of politics and religion alarming.
I said so before and I will say so again. Pity the Orthodox soul
who goes to your website under the impression they are not Orthodox because
their politics are not as yours. Let's examine for a minute the articles
on your most recent page:
Scriptures - Nov. 7 23rd Sunday after Pentecost Epistle Ephesians 2:4-10 Gospel Luke 8:26-39 Quotes * And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst" -- (John 6:35) "For I am sure that neither death... nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." -- (Romans 8:37-39) [ Home Page ] Features Christian Tragedy in Kosovo Hundreds of innocent Orthodox Christians are being slaughtered mercilessly and dozens of sacred Orthodox churches and monasteries are methodically being erradicated by the KLA, while the US media says nothing and ignores this GENOCIDE. In Spirit and In Truth Not only is worship the constant activity of the Church in heaven, but it is also the priority of the Church on earth. The Quickest Way to Find and Sell a Home. Current Events Defining Poverty Up Through a simple change of definition, one that has nothing to do with economic realities, twelve million Americans might become "poor" overnight. Alan Keyes - Morality and God Matter Morality arbitrates what we should take in, and what we must reject. Without this foundation, one merely lives from whim to whim, moving neither toward nor away from anything. Unnatural Selection Democracy, you might think, happens when voters select those who will govern. The opposite, increasingly, is closer to the truth. The Homosexualization of America God has set down specific laws for our own good and they must be obeyed even as we must obey the laws of the land or nature. Barbara Boxer's Moment of Truth By responding to Santorum’s questions, Sen. Boxer violated the cardinal rule of defending partial-birth abortion: change the subject. Alan Keyes - Presidential Material GOP Presidential Candidate Alan Keyes took on 4 other Republican presidential hopefuls Friday night, October 22, stealing the spotlight and scoring a major victory for conservative Americans. US Senate "Debates" Partial-Birth Abortions Subjects that once naturally inspired a shudder, and roused every maternal and paternal instinct, are now smothered in latinate verbiage and set out to cool. Let’s Outlaw "Hate" Why do we have to classify hate and only protect certain "kinds" of it? Isn't "hate" in all forms and expressions something to abhor? From Hippocrates to Hypocisy Tens of thousands of abortions are performed each year by medical doctors in direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath. Denying Christ: Has Bradley Lost His Faith? Bradley disavows his Christian beliefs and, according to "Investor's Business Daily," says he "now embraces all religions" from Buddhism to Islam, so long as they seek "inner peace." Art or Anti-Christian Propaganda The Establishment needs to do a bit more thinking about civility and transgression. It is not civil to attack a religion by trying to degrade its symbols. The War Against Religion We are in a cultural war, and at the center of it is a major offensive against Christianity. Anyone who does not believe this is in denial. Art Exhibit Denigrates the Virgin Mary With support from Christian hating liberals and the media, the Brooklyn museum continues to display insulting and perverted art pieces. Liberal pots calling the tax kettle black The Democrats - and especially Clinton - seem genetically opposed to tax cuts. To them, an average citizen is too stupid to know what to do with his own money and how to invest it, save it and spend it. Wisdom What Price Freedom Linda Bowles Weekly insightful commentary. Dr. Chuck Baldwin Daily dose of wisdom and faith. The Role of Scripture The forgotten importance of the 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Perils of Prosperity Prosperity is more perilous to the soul than adversity to the body. The abortion hypocrisy We tolerate countless gov't violations of our rights, yet we allow unrestricted murder of the unborn. War on Christianity Never before in American history have Christians experienced being hated for following Jesus Christ as they are today. More Tolerable for Sodom Jesus condemned His generation saying that they were worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. I shudder to think what His assessment must be of our generation. Worship How To Worship The Spirit of Parish Life Spiritual Guides The Commandments of God The Fruits of the Holy Spirit Feasts and Fasts Great Feasts of the Church Fasts In Holy Icons The Veneration of Icons Liturgical Renewal Insights into the liturgical life of the Orthodox Church, translated from an unpublished manuscript. [Next Site] [Next 5 Sites] [Previous Site] [Random Site] [List All Sites] In-Depth Pope John Paul II - his Faith For all the questions this Pope has raised, there is one that burns for John Paul II--the question of faith. For him faith is the first, the ultimate reality. Prelude to Plunder A free man with a firearm has a fighting chance against any would-be gangster or criminal. On the other hand, an unarmed man has no chance at all against an oppressive, tyrannical government. Youth Children in the Church Allowing children to have contact with spiritual grace is one of the first, basic concerns of a Christian who thinks about his children, and the task of Christian society, which is concerned about its youth. [Next Site] [Skip 1 Site] [Next 5 Sites] [Previous] [Random] [JOIN!] Copyright © 1998-99
Moreover, in addition ot the preponderance of politics, versus religion, you have copied the ROCOR prayer book on your site (parts at least) and attempted to copyright what you have scanned or otherwise copied.
Similarly, much of your other content is from ROCOR sites, unattributed. And, of course, as i mentioned a half year ago, you don't take responsibility for your website by naming yourself on it.
Communism is, however, evil, as you suggest.
Galina
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not sign your posts. you
>have a pretense (and it might be true) of being Orthodox and have web pages which
>are mostly conservative politics written by Protestants. You purport the
>following:
Are you saying that Orthodoxy is liberal when is comes to social and
moral issues? Pray thee on which of the following issues does the
Orthodox Church agree with the liberal left:
1. Abortion
2. Homosexuality
3. Man's Creation
4. God's gender
5. Sexual education
6. Moral absolutes
7. Women ordination
8. etc, etc, etc
To say that Orthodox Christianity is NOT conservative is like saying
that the Pope is not Catholic.
<snip>
>Moreover, in addition ot the preponderance of politics, versus religion, you have
The contributors and editors of OrthodoxNet.com practice and use that
little thing called here in the US .... Free Speech. (you know that
little Amendment right at the top of the Bill or Rights; right above
the other Amendment one about private gun ownership)
I do not think it is fair for you to question and try to dictate what
and how much of what you call "politics" should or should not be on
the site. Given that so little fair and objective reporting can be
found in the mainstream media which give a Christian perspective, we
happen to think it very valuable to balance out the lies, half-truths
and distortions that constantly flood our culture.
All of the articles chosen are objective, fair and honest. They are
indeed presented from a conservative Christian perspective, which, I
happen to believe wholeheartedly, is on the same page with the
morality and values that Orthodoxy teaches us. (so do a majority of
the priests and monastics that visit our site and send us feedback) S
>copied the ROCOR prayer book on your site (parts at least) and attempted to
>copyright what you have scanned or otherwise copied.
We are a non-profit website and as such all partial use of material
(which we did give proper credit and copyright notices where
available) falls under the definition of Fair Use.
>Similarly, much of your other content is from ROCOR sites, unattributed. And, of
>course, as i mentioned a half year ago, you don't take responsibility for your
>website by naming yourself on it.
You seem to have forgotten that I did identify and explain who I am
back then. Not that it seem to make any difference to anyone. Since
you insist and are so concerned about who I am here's a little info.
My name is Bogdan and I am what you call a "cradle" Orthodox. I am
married to a wonderful woman who used to be a Protestant but after
years of intense and eye opening dialogue she (fully on her own
accord) embraced the holy Orthodox Faith. I come from a long line of
Orthodox priests in my family, 5 generations to be precise. And, one
more thing... I happen to be an attorney also. (not that it really
matters, but just in case you were wondering) Please no attorney
jokes, I have heard my share over the years and none are original
anymore.
>Communism is, however, evil, as you suggest.
I am glad that we do agree on a very crucial (I think) point. There's
still hope for you yet. :-))
Bogdan Esq.
sp...@erols.com
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 20:25:03 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> >Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not sign your posts. you
> >have a pretense (and it might be true) of being Orthodox and have web pages which
> >are mostly conservative politics written by Protestants. You purport the
> >following:
>
> Are you saying that Orthodoxy is liberal when is comes to social and
> moral issues? Pray thee on which of the following issues does the
> Orthodox Church agree with the liberal left:
>
> 1. Abortion
> 2. Homosexuality
> 3. Man's Creation
> 4. God's gender
> 5. Sexual education
> 6. Moral absolutes
> 7. Women ordination
> 8. etc, etc, etc
>
> To say that Orthodox Christianity is NOT conservative is like saying
> that the Pope is not Catholic.
But , unlike some conservatives, Orthodoxy and nationalism are not compatible and we
are very big on Christian acts like helping our neighbors, loving our neighbors, and
human and civil rights. SOME of these things put us in the category of liberals.
Orthodoxy cannot be defined as either conservative or liberal politically and politics
is what your webpages are about. And Protestant is what the majority authorship of
your pages is. I was thinking just the other day, however, that the majority of what
shows up at my house in the from of a subscription to Saint Nektarios Church's
Orthodox Christian Witness, a publication I have copies of from as far back as the
late 70s!!!!!, is now protestant and Catholic. What used to be a great source of
wisdom has now become a pamplet from the religious rightists and has little to do with
our Church. It seems like the last sane member of the HOCNA has gone down the path to
politics instead of being a beacon of conservative Orthodox tradition.
>
>
> <snip>
> >Moreover, in addition ot the preponderance of politics, versus religion, you have
>
> The contributors and editors of OrthodoxNet.com practice and use that
> little thing called here in the US .... Free Speech. (you know that
> little Amendment right at the top of the Bill or Rights; right above
> the other Amendment one about private gun ownership)
>
> I do not think it is fair for you to question and try to dictate what
> and how much of what you call "politics" should or should not be on
> the site. Given that so little fair and objective reporting can be
> found in the mainstream media which give a Christian perspective, we
> happen to think it very valuable to balance out the lies, half-truths
> and distortions that constantly flood our culture.
>
> All of the articles chosen are objective, fair and honest. They are
> indeed presented from a conservative Christian perspective, which, I
> happen to believe wholeheartedly, is on the same page with the
> morality and values that Orthodoxy teaches us. (so do a majority of
> the priests and monastics that visit our site and send us feedback) S
>
> >copied the ROCOR prayer book on your site (parts at least) and attempted to
> >copyright what you have scanned or otherwise copied.
>
> We are a non-profit website and as such all partial use of material
> (which we did give proper credit and copyright notices where
> available) falls under the definition of Fair Use.
>
> >Similarly, much of your other content is from ROCOR sites, unattributed. And, of
> >course, as i mentioned a half year ago, you don't take responsibility for your
> >website by naming yourself on it.
>
> You seem to have forgotten that I did identify and explain who I am
> back then. Not that it seem to make any difference to anyone. Since
> you insist and are so concerned about who I am here's a little info.
>
> My name is Bogdan and I am what you call a "cradle" Orthodox. I am
> married to a wonderful woman who used to be a Protestant but after
> years of intense and eye opening dialogue she (fully on her own
> accord) embraced the holy Orthodox Faith. I come from a long line of
> Orthodox priests in my family, 5 generations to be precise. And, one
> more thing... I happen to be an attorney also. (not that it really
> matters, but just in case you were wondering) Please no attorney
> jokes, I have heard my share over the years and none are original
> anymore.
>
> >Communism is, however, evil, as you suggest.
>
> I am glad that we do agree on a very crucial (I think) point. There's
> still hope for you yet. :-))
>
> Bogdan Esq.
All that is fine and good, Bogdan, BUT, when you purport to have an Orthodox website
and the majority of its content is politics, that is absolutely wrong because you do
NOT speak for the church.
Galina
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>All that is fine and good, Bogdan, BUT, when you purport to have an Orthodox website
>and the majority of its content is politics, that is absolutely wrong because you do
>NOT speak for the church.
So now we Orthodox have a monopoly on the English word "Orthodox".
You must be kidding! (I hope). What next, we will force the Jewish
faith to give up the word b/c it conflicts with the Orthodox Church?
I do not understand where you come off saying I speak for the church.
NOWHERE on our entire site is that claim made or stated; actually the
EXACT OPPOSITE is plainly outlined on the "About Us" page.
Please get your facts straight before making up things about our site
and me that are not even close to the truth.
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>
>
>webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 20:25:03 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
>> >Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not sign your posts. you
>> >have a pretense (and it might be true) of being Orthodox and have web pages which
>> >are mostly conservative politics written by Protestants. You purport the
>> >following:
>>
>> Are you saying that Orthodoxy is liberal when is comes to social and
>> moral issues? Pray thee on which of the following issues does the
>> Orthodox Church agree with the liberal left:
>>
>> 1. Abortion
>> 2. Homosexuality
>> 3. Man's Creation
>> 4. God's gender
>> 5. Sexual education
>> 6. Moral absolutes
>> 7. Women ordination
>> 8. etc, etc, etc
>>
>> To say that Orthodox Christianity is NOT conservative is like saying
>> that the Pope is not Catholic.
>
>But , unlike some conservatives, Orthodoxy and nationalism are not compatible and we
>are very big on Christian acts like helping our neighbors, loving our neighbors, and
>human and civil rights. SOME of these things put us in the category of liberals.
Where have I ever made that claim? It is the issues of:
1. Abortion
2. Homosexuality
3. Moral standards
4. Sanctity of marriage
5. Sanctity of life
6. AIDS education to 2nd graders
7. Double standards
8. Political correctness
9. Tolerance (only of liberal and atheistic views)
that I have a beef with and where the liberal views are anathema to
Orthodoxy.
I have never said that helping our neighbors, loving our neighbors,
and human and civil rights are a problem. Where are you getting that
from? That is precisely the same viewpoint of all Christian
conservatives.
>Orthodoxy cannot be defined as either conservative or liberal politically and politics
That is your opinion only. We at OrthodoxNet beg to differ.
>is what your webpages are about. And Protestant is what the majority authorship of
>your pages is.
Isn't that a shame! That is b/c there aren't enough "Orthodox"
editorials on current events. Where are we supposed to get material
from? Once conservative Orthodox writers start commenting on the
secular issues that we Orthodox have to deal with on a daily basis, we
will be more than happy to have those articles instead. Until then,
we have to depend on those Protestants that take the time to present
the Christian point of view.
> I was thinking just the other day, however, that the majority of what
>shows up at my house in the from of a subscription to Saint Nektarios Church's
>Orthodox Christian Witness, a publication I have copies of from as far back as the
>late 70s!!!!!, is now protestant and Catholic. What used to be a great source of
>wisdom has now become a pamplet from the religious rightists and has little to do with
Just what exactly are "religious rightists" supposed to be? Just
curious.
>our Church. It seems like the last sane member of the HOCNA has gone down the path to
>politics instead of being a beacon of conservative Orthodox tradition.
That IS conservative Orthodox tradition. We are part of "this world"
and supposed to live in it but not be of it. We are supposed to keep
our sights, soul and faith fixated on God, BUT we still have to live
in a society and behave with social and moral responsibility in that
society. And that includes SURPRISE, GASP, taking sides in political
debates, VOTING and expressing our views on politicians and issues.
sp...@erols.com
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:41:53 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
The very name of your URL implies this.
baron...@my-deja.com
Farmers give up the term "Jackass" - for I am now applying it to
something more needful of the term: A coward named Bogdan.
Baron Kevin
In article <38243bfa...@enews.newsguy.com>,
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
>What next, we will force the Jewish
> faith to give up the word b/c it conflicts with the Orthodox Church?
>
> I do not understand where you come off saying I speak for the church.
> NOWHERE on our entire site is that claim made or stated; actually the
> EXACT OPPOSITE is plainly outlined on the "About Us" page.
>
> Please get your facts straight before making up things about our site
> and me that are not even close to the truth.
>
>
baron...@my-deja.com
give ourselves these really swank titles like "Matushka", "Orthodox
Webmaster", "Baron Kevin", "HOCNA", "ROCOR", etc...you name it - and now
you have found all the so-called significance anyone with a real
self-esteem problem ever wanted! This is all fun and games! Don't you
get that? We all play a role here and as long as no one let's on...we
can all have our own sanctified-sounding version of the Renaissance
Festival right here on the web. I bet there are a lot of trekkies in the
Orthodox Church.
THE BARON
In article <38214D53...@erols.com>,
sp...@erols.com wrote:
>
> webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
>
> The very name of your URL implies this.
>
>
baron...@my-deja.com
Baron Kevin
(who still wonders how it is that we are to take part in political
anything - much less debates. I guess we all need to now go and win an
argument for Jesus!)
In article <38253d02...@enews.newsguy.com>,
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
We are part of "this world"
> and supposed to live in it but not be of it. We are supposed to keep
> our sights, soul and faith fixated on God, BUT we still have to live
> in a society and behave with social and moral responsibility in that
> society. And that includes SURPRISE, GASP, taking sides in political
> debates, VOTING and expressing our views on politicians and issues.
>
>
evagr...@my-deja.com
My understanding of economics has been shaped by a number of Orthodox
writers from India.
I recommend that you read, if you can find it, Metropolitan Osthathios
Geevarghese's work, Theology of a Classless Society.
His arhument is quite simple. The Trinity is a "society" of equals,
each member having different roles.
Human beings are created in the image of God; the Trinity.
Human society should reflect the Trinity.
Class structure, overwhelming wealth and oppressive poverty,
discrimination, prejudice,etc; have no place in a Christian conception
of society.
Therefore, all these things are anti-Christian and must be oppossed by
Christians.
Christians are obligated to work to create a society that reflects the
Trinity.
This is certainly a different conception than the conservatives you
espouse. Most of the Protestant conservatives have little inkling of
the Trinity. They, instead, advocate God as King, with Jesus Christ as
little king. They, of course, being His servants stand higher than
everyone else. Therefore, whatever social position or wealth they have,
has been blessed by God and is sanctified and inviolate. The poor are
poor because they lack morals etc; and God abandons them to poverty.
Answer me this question; how important is the Trinity to you?
In article <3820b563...@enews.newsguy.com>,
Nick Theodorakis
webm...@orthodoxnet.com (webm...@orthodoxnet.com) wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 20:25:03 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> >Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not sign
> your posts. you
> >have a pretense (and it might be true) of being Orthodox and have
> web pages which
> >are mostly conservative politics written by Protestants. You
> purport the
> >following:
> and
> moral issues? Pray thee on which of the following issues does the
> Orthodox Church agree with the liberal left:
> 1. Abortion
> 2. Homosexuality
> 3. Man's Creation
> 4. God's gender
> 5. Sexual education
> 6. Moral absolutes
> 7. Women ordination
> 8. etc, etc, etc
> To say that Orthodox Christianity is NOT conservative is like
> saying
> that the Pope is not Catholic.
Dear Brother in Christ Bogdan:
At the risk of starting an argument about political ideology, which I
don't intend to do, I would like to point out that there are those of
us who do self-identify as "liberal" and who neither consider any of
those issues that you point out above as "core" issues for liberalism,
nor who think that all aspects of liberalism to be incompatible with
Orthodoxy. Some of us think that the essence of liberalism is that the
government has a proper role to correct social injustice when it
persists in society, and to protect those who are helpless to protect
themselves (actually, in this regard, I think there could be a case
made for a liberal defense of the rights of the unborn -- because they
are the most helpless -- but unfortunately there is a paucity of debate
using this argument). There are a host of other issues that were
identified as "liberal" as they were being debated and were opposed by
those identifying themselves as "conservative" -- such as desegregation
of the schools, protection of civil rights, (Archbishop +Iakovos
marched in Selma), protection of the environment, labor rights, etc. In
fact, much of the "classic" liberal agenda has been implemented and is
no longer debated, and there is actually not much more for the classic
liberal to do, which is why so often the modern liberal looks silly in
search of a new cause. But nobody seriously advocates that minorities
should be restricted at the ballot box, or that schools should be
allowed to ban minorities, or that they should have to ride on the back
of the bus, or that any business should have the right to pollute as
much as they see fit.
Part of the problem today is that both "liberal" and "conservative"
ideologies contain a mishmash of ideas that are accepted in an ad hoc
fashion. Was George W., for example, a conservative when he accepted
government subsidies to help run his baseball team? Was Clinton being
liberal when championed the death penalty when he was governor of
Arkansas? What about global free trade issues such as NAFTA or GATT?
Nobody seems to know whether those are "liberal" or "conservative."
What, indeed, is the Orthodox position on GATT -- or should there even
be one? Or take the case of US intervention in foreign affairs. The
only principle that guides modern politicians is that "liberals" were
opposed to intervention by Republican presidents, and "conservatives"
were opposed to intervention by Democratic presidents, and vice versa.
What about campaign finance reform -- is that "liberal" or
"conservative"? Another example is term limits for political office --
that used to be a "conservative" idea only until those who championed
it began to run for re-election. Indeed, both the Democrats and
Republicans are amalgamations of groups with various (and sometimes
contradictory) agendas that exist in an uneasy coalition.
There is no guiding ideology anymore, just "our side" and "their side."
It's almost as if when a new idea or problem comes up, there has to be
a "huddle" as people decide if they are "against" it or "for" it, and
they need to see what the "other" side thinks before they make up their
mind. I think there needs to be "de-coupling" of most ideas from
traditional political lines, so that they could be debated on their own
merits, instead of as a "zero-sum" game in which there can only be
"winners" and "losers."
Anyway, I have rambled on too much, and I will say no more on this
subject, since I think it has gone beyond the scope of this newsgroup,
except to ask that everyone assume that those who have different views
may still have honorable intentions.
In XC,
Nick
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
evagr...@my-deja.com
Eloquent!
I think that Mr. Bogdan would like a theocracy, ( at least that is what
some conservative Christian groups want), except that a
fundamentalist,evangelical theocracy would have no room for Orthodoxy.
In article <11f733ec...@usw-ex0102-010.remarq.com>,
Nick Theodorakis <nicholas_t...@urmc.rochester.edu> wrote:
> In article <38230091....@enews.newsguy.com>,
> webm...@orthodoxnet.com (webm...@orthodoxnet.com) wrote:
> > On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 20:25:03 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> > >Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not sign
> > your posts. you
> > >have a pretense (and it might be true) of being Orthodox and have
> > web pages which
> > >are mostly conservative politics written by Protestants. You
> > purport the
> > >following:
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>I don't know - but I am considering making our proud and vigilant GDR
>Farmers give up the term "Jackass" - for I am now applying it to
>something more needful of the term: A coward named Bogdan.
>Baron Kevin
When all else fails, truth and facts confuse you, and you have no
reasoned response to specific issues resort to personal insults and
name calling. Very nice Kevin, very Christian of you!
Bogdan
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>
>
>webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:41:53 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
>> >All that is fine and good, Bogdan, BUT, when you purport to have an Orthodox website
>> >and the majority of its content is politics, that is absolutely wrong because you do
>> >NOT speak for the church.
>>
>> So now we Orthodox have a monopoly on the English word "Orthodox".
>> You must be kidding! (I hope). What next, we will force the Jewish
>> faith to give up the word b/c it conflicts with the Orthodox Church?
>>
>> I do not understand where you come off saying I speak for the church.
>> NOWHERE on our entire site is that claim made or stated; actually the
>> EXACT OPPOSITE is plainly outlined on the "About Us" page.
>>
>> Please get your facts straight before making up things about our site
>> and me that are not even close to the truth.
>
>The very name of your URL implies this.
So now we Orthodox have a monopoly on the English word "Orthodox".
You must be kidding! (I hope). What next, we will force the Jewish
sp...@erols.com
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
No, Bogdan,
I think you need a disclaimer on the main page. And with the reading of the day right in
the upper left hand corner, you solidify the impression YOU are trying to give that what you
and your protestant cohort are trying to say is Orthodox. Sometimes it is, sometimes it
isn't. But all is NOT Orthodox on orthodox Net.
sp...@erols.com
baron...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Really? I guess that's because your vote really counts, eh? Bogdan?
> Baron Kevin
> (who still wonders how it is that we are to take part in political
> anything - much less debates. I guess we all need to now go and win an
> argument for Jesus!)
I think the point is that Bogdan's version of Jesus would have approved of
his political ideas. And when he calls them Orthodox he implies all
Orthodox feel as he does --------NOT
>
>
> In article <38253d02...@enews.newsguy.com>,
> webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
> We are part of "this world"
> > and supposed to live in it but not be of it. We are supposed to keep
> > our sights, soul and faith fixated on God, BUT we still have to live
> > in a society and behave with social and moral responsibility in that
> > society. And that includes SURPRISE, GASP, taking sides in political
> > debates, VOTING and expressing our views on politicians and issues.
> >
> >
>
sp...@erols.com
Nick Theodorakis wrote:
> In article <38230091....@enews.newsguy.com>,
> webm...@orthodoxnet.com (webm...@orthodoxnet.com) wrote:
> > On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 20:25:03 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> > >Could i bring something up again? It is this. You do not sign
> > your posts. you
> > >have a pretense (and it might be true) of being Orthodox and have
> > web pages which
> > >are mostly conservative politics written by Protestants. You
> > purport the
> > >following:
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
<nicholas_t...@urmc.rochester.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>Anyway, I have rambled on too much, and I will say no more on this
>subject, since I think it has gone beyond the scope of this newsgroup,
>except to ask that everyone assume that those who have different views
>may still have honorable intentions.
>
>In XC,
>Nick
I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said. I only have a beef
with "liberal" and "right-wing" issues that run contrary to moral
dictates of Orthodox Christianity. Since conservatism, in my opinion,
has more in common with Orthodoxy as far as morality, values,
traditional issues, I therefore sympathize more with those commonly
held beliefs. That doesn't mean there aren't honest and God fearing
liberals out there that do not fully embrace the liberal mantra. It
only doesn't mean that there are hypocritical "conservatives" also
that behave in contradiction to Christian morals and value system.
Unfortunately, besides yourself and a few others, I have yet to meet a
liberal who would stand up and defend specific issues point by point.
What inevitably happens it that the issue is lost and the "liberal"
launches into personal attacks directed at the messenger and
disregarding the message. Facts and objective reality is jettisoned
for rhetoric and name calling.
What's interesting to see is that some of the most intolerant and
insensitive people I have ever met are the very same people that
scream and holler the loudest that every point of view should be heard
and that everyone's opinion counts. Those very same people are the
first to try to silence any point of view that dares deverge from
their ideology and attack the person instead of debating the ideas and
issues.
Glad to see there are people of integrity who can debate civily and
agree to disagree.
Yours in Christ,
Bogdan
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>
>
>baron...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Really? I guess that's because your vote really counts, eh? Bogdan?
>> Baron Kevin
>> (who still wonders how it is that we are to take part in political
>> anything - much less debates. I guess we all need to now go and win an
>> argument for Jesus!)
>
>I think the point is that Bogdan's version of Jesus would have approved of
>his political ideas. And when he calls them Orthodox he implies all
>Orthodox feel as he does --------NOT
My version of Jesus? Where in God's creation are you getting this
stuff from? How am I changing the essence of Christ with private
views on secular issues expressed by lay men and women. You are
making up things and imputing things to me and the editors of
OrthodoxNet.com that are not really there and have no basis in
reality.
Just out of curiosity where would your version of Jesus be most
welcomed and allowed to participate in: a Gay and Lesbian Parade or a
Focus on the Family meeting. Which stand on abortion would Jesus
agree with Planned Parenthood's or Truth for Life Ministries? Which
version of charity would Christ approve of: gov't welfare distributed
indiscriminately and used to enslave able bodied and healthy people (I
am not refering to the elderly, sick or handicapped souls that really
need help) to a life of dependancy, or the many Christian charities
that not only offer monetary and material help but also give people
hope, moral and spiritual direction and discipline?
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>Mr. Theodorakis,
>
>
>Eloquent!
>
>I think that Mr. Bogdan would like a theocracy, ( at least that is what
>some conservative Christian groups want), except that a
>fundamentalist,evangelical theocracy would have no room for Orthodoxy.
No such thing. I am perfectly happy with freedom and democracy, as
long as our Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantees our freedom of
religion and rights as individuals. I'm simply trying to balance out
the secularism and atheism of our culture with some Christian centered
views.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Festival right here on the web. I bet there are a lot of trekkies in the
> Orthodox Church.
Actually, I know some folks who have done a little fiction regarding
Orthodox Klingons...
evagrius
Well, you know, Jesus Christ might march in a Gay Freedom parade.
He might also show up at a Planned Parenthood meeting to discuss other
strategies besides abortion, He might even be at an abortion clinic to
forgive the women and forgive the absent males, ( funny how the
abortion debate never mentions the sperm donor's moral responsibility).
He might be at Congressional meetings to ask for child care subsidies
so that poor women could go to work, instead of being dependent on
welfare. He might ask that education be improved so that welfare rolls
would drop in the future, ( many, many, welfare recipients are
under-educated or functionally illiterate). He might look askance at a
Defense department budget so bloated that the Pentagon asked that
weapons be dropped from acquisition, to be denied by a Republican
Congress. He might ask why the very rich pay proportionaly less taxes
than the poor and why the rich give less in charity than the poor,( the
widow's mite).
I think you presume on Our Lord's political affiliation. I myself think
that He would be the Archtypal Independent, willing to look at all
sides of a question/problem.
The Pharisees of Jesus' time had very easy solutions to social/moral
problems. Follow the Law, every dot, every mote. The irony is that only
the rich could do this. Everyone else, who worked, were unclean in one
form or another. It set up a great business for the Temple with ritual,
cleansing sacrifices, ( the money changing tables). Jesus' attack on
the Pharisees was an attack on the moral presumption of the rich. I
don't think His attack would be any less today except that the
Pharisees have a different name.
In article <3822e5e8....@enews.newsguy.com>,
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
evagrius
I have to agree with most of your points. Where's the quote about
Disneyland after the gulag? (Very funny!)( Did you know that the Disney
Corp. has created a "community" that is completely controlled? Friendly
fascism!)
In article <7vt7t2$em4$1...@news6.isdnet.net>, "R. V. Gronoff"
<regis....@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
> <webm...@orthodoxnet.com> a écrit dans le message :
> 3820b563...@enews.newsguy.com...
> Like historical christianity. What about the Tsar or the feudal
> kings and
> emperors, or the inquisition ?
> > >
> > >Like true christianity, true socialism is something always new,
> always
> still
> > >to come. And it supposes a kind of conversion, too: to limit my
> own
> profit
> > >to the point it doesnt' cause anyone else's impoverishment.
> >
> > Only new in perception, but the same corrupt ideology at its
> core.
> > Theory sounds wonderful, almost utopia on earth. Experience and
> > history however shows us that most pure socialist societies
> (with some
> > exceptions re: those that still have some form of democracy to
> > counteract it) wind up being communist and oppressive in the end.
> Like christian societies...
> > Not
> > only that the millions of lives it crushes are a testament to how
> > Satan uses Christian sounding doctrines to deceive and kill the
> > innocent and gullible.
> >
> How about money and lust, the basis of capitalism ?
> > Why is it that after almost 100 years of experimentation, all
> flavors
> > of socialism wind up causing more harm than good?
> And after 2000 years of christianity ?
> > Why is it that we
> > Americans seem to think that we know just the right mix of
> socialism
> > and democracy, when so many other cultures have paid such a dear
> price
> > for playing with fire?
> >
> Only the US Americans think so. Maybe the kids of South Asia or
> South
> America who make Nike shoes for peanuts think differently...
> > >
> > >The big sin is, in my opinion, that mainstream christianity has
> always
> seen
> > >socialism as a concurrent, and has demonized it. Had more
> christians
> > >supported the idea of social justice, the gulag would have
> never existed.
> >
> > Social justice can only make sense when a society recognizes the
> > authority of GOD and the immesurable value of an individual. No
> > socialist/communist society has EVER placed a higher value on
> human
> > life than a democracy based on Judeo-Christian ideals like the
> US.
> > (except of course in the Byzantine Empire)
> >
> The highest American value is the six shot Colt gun.
> Actually, the US "righteous one" is a sort of Messiah with a 75
> magnum.
> A sort of Dirty Harry-Christ...
> "I may be a big asshole, but I've got a big gun, punk." The
> American
> gospel...
> > Socialism and communism when evaluated in real and objective
> terms are
> > truly alien to Christianity!
> "Real and objective" ? Hmmm...
> > A superficial and simplistic evaluation
> > of this corrupt ideology would like us to believe that
> Christianity =
> > Communism, that is simply not true. History tells us that even
> some
> > great Russian Orthodox thinkers during the Russian revolution
> made
> > that deadly mistake and drew such parallels; only to see the true
> > fruits of the tree of communism later on.
> > Many of them committed
> > suicide when faced with how many Christians they mislead and to
> what
> > ultimate conclusion the communist revolution came to. Can't we
> learn
> > from the lessons of the past? Have we not learned what happens
> to
> > Christians when communism encounters the Orthodox Church or any
> other
> > religious faith? Must we walk down the same road and wind up
> paying
> > the same price again?
> >
> Killing people who don't share your religious belief is a crime
> agaisnt the
> spirit, and a crime against charity.
> In civilized countries, the idea of a lay republic is buying
> built, little
> by little.
> In Russia, it took Lenin and the gulags.
> > Here are 2 quotes from Fr. Seraphim Rose that should make all of
> us
> > ponder just how dangerous it is to play with communism and its
> corrupt
> > ideology:
> >
> > "One has to realize what communism is, not merely a power-mad
> > political regime, but an ideological-religious system whose aim
> is to
> > overthrow and supplant all other systems, most of all
> Christianity."
> >
> > "Communism specifically attacked the lands which had most nearly
> > retained their ancient Christian traditions - Russia, Romania,
> > Bulgaria, Greece, etc. Propaganda portrayed Bolshevism as a
> > political/social uprising, which is what gullible individuals
> > throughout the world still imagine it to have been.
> >
> How about his statements about America ?
> "After the gulag... Disneyland."
> > But the
> > "revolution" was far more than this -it was actually a battle
> against
> > Christianity."
> > - Father Seraphim Rose
> Sure. But when you see what "christianity" was at these times.
> Except a
> handful of holy men and women, the rest were just using religion
> as a mean
> of power. Think of what the Jews have suffered during the pogroms.
> US capitalism is NOT universal by nature.
evagrius
But I don't see the Christianity of your political viewpoint, just
moralism.
Moralism doesn't lead to any transcendent experience of God, not by
itself. That's what Jesus Christ seemed to have taught.
Link your politics to the ultimate questions about reality and you
might have something.
Remember, to achieve theosis, one must be stripped of everything,
including moralism.
In article <3822ff01....@enews.newsguy.com>,
sp...@erols.com
You have your moments. Good post and very loving of man and woman kind
Galina
evagrius wrote:
> In article <3822e5e8....@enews.newsguy.com>,
sp...@erols.com
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
Excuse me but watch your quoting. You are responding to Baron Kevin while you
erroneously have my name as the poster
Galina
R. V. Gronoff
R. V. Gronoff
evagrius <mvasquez...@mail.co.sanmateo.ca.us.invalid> a écrit dans le
message : 000b8d9b...@usw-ex0101-003.remarq.com...
> Vassilli,
>
> I have to agree with most of your points. Where's the quote about
> Disneyland after the gulag?
In "Not of this world", p. 876.
Here's the complete quote:
"One might take, as a symbol of our carefree, fun-loving, self-worshipping
times, our American 'Disneyland' ; if so, we should not neglect to see
behind it the more sinister symbol that shows where the 'me generation' is
really heading: the Soviet gulag."
> (Very funny!)( Did you know that the Disney
> Corp. has created a "community" that is completely controlled? Friendly
> fascism!)
>
Yes. I'm sure that a giant super-Disneyland is the only future for
former-Yugoslavia.
There's a good book you can read, called "Disney and the Bible - a
scriptural critique of the Magic Kingdom", by Perucci Ferraiulo, Horizon
books ISBN 0-88965-129-9
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
"I think the point is that Bogdan's version of Jesus would have
approved of his political ideas. And when he calls them Orthodox he
implies all Orthodox feel as he does --------NOT"
Was this not your post?
sp...@erols.com
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
> I think you are confused, I was responding to your quote:
>
> "I think the point is that Bogdan's version of Jesus would have
> approved of his political ideas. And when he calls them Orthodox he
> implies all Orthodox feel as he does --------NOT"
>
> Was this not your post?
Yes, but you have me as the quoting person for the lot. I did not read your post
as far as my own quote.
>
>
> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 23:00:32 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 14:15:52 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >baron...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Really? I guess that's because your vote really counts, eh? Bogdan?
> >> >> Baron Kevin
> >> >> (who still wonders how it is that we are to take part in political
> >> >> anything - much less debates. I guess we all need to now go and win an
> >> >> argument for Jesus!)
> >> >
> >> >I think the point is that Bogdan's version of Jesus would have approved of
> >> >his political ideas. And when he calls them Orthodox he implies all
> >> >Orthodox feel as he does --------NOT
> >>
> >> My version of Jesus? Where in God's creation are you getting this
> >> stuff from? How am I changing the essence of Christ with private
> >> views on secular issues expressed by lay men and women. You are
> >> making up things and imputing things to me and the editors of
> >> OrthodoxNet.com that are not really there and have no basis in
> >> reality.
> >>
> >> Just out of curiosity where would your version of Jesus be most
> >> welcomed and allowed to participate in: a Gay and Lesbian Parade or a
> >> Focus on the Family meeting.
BOgdan,
I am not going to fall for this bait.
> Which stand on abortion would Jesus
> >> agree with Planned Parenthood's or Truth for Life Ministries?
or this bait
> Which
> >> version of charity would Christ approve of: gov't welfare distributed
> >> indiscriminately and used to enslave able bodied and healthy people (I
> >> am not refering to the elderly, sick or handicapped souls that really
> >> need help) to a life of dependancy, or the many Christian charities
> >> that not only offer monetary and material help but also give people
> >> hope, moral and spiritual direction and discipline?
Or this bait. I will reiterate that whatever your political views and whether or
not i agree with them or not, you have no moral right to paste a bunch of them up
on a website and call it ORTHODOXNET. That's politics and worldly affairs, not
Orthodox.
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
<mvasquez...@mail.co.sanmateo.ca.us.invalid> wrote:
>Mr. Bogdan,
>
>
>Well, you know, Jesus Christ might march in a Gay Freedom parade.
You have nit read my post carefully. I did not say whether Jesus
would chose to march, but whether HE woulld be WELCOMED at a GALA
parade. Honestly, you believe that the same people that have thrown
red paint filled condoms at Catholic Christians leaving their places
of worship (in New York), who see nothing wrong with the homosexual
lifestyle and who believe there are no moral absolutes would welcome
Jesus with open arms?
>He might also show up at a Planned Parenthood meeting to discuss other
>strategies besides abortion, He might even be at an abortion clinic to
>forgive the women and forgive the absent males, ( funny how the
>abortion debate never mentions the sperm donor's moral responsibility).
Once again you are not reading my point carefully. I did not say
whether Christ would choose to walk into a Planned Parenthood meeting,
but whether Christ's STAND on ABORTION was the same as Planned
Parenthood's or Truth for Life Ministries. That's a completely
different issue from what you are talking about.
<snip>
>I think you presume on Our Lord's political affiliation. I myself think
>that He would be the Archtypal Independent, willing to look at all
>sides of a question/problem.
I did no such thing. I asked a few simple questions as to specific
moral issues (abortion, homosexuality) issues and whether Christ's
teachings are reflected more by liberal secular organizations (Planned
Parenthood, Act Up and the gov't) or private Christian charities. If
you haven't gotten that point then I don know how else to express my
points.
Please, if we are to have a good old fashiones debate, read my posts
carefully and do not impute and make up issues and statements I never
made and never said.
Thanks.
BTW - Since you know my name, could you do me the honor of letting me
know what your first name is. Thank you.
evagr...@my-deja.com
I think that Jesus would be welcomed at a GALA parade. I think everyone
has now made the great distinction between Jesus and the Church. Most
people accept Jesus as, at least, a very holy man with a message of
peace, love and generosity. Even extremely secular people would accept
that portrayal. It might be inaccurate but it is a commom portrayal
that is partial but not false.
In article <382391f...@enews.newsguy.com>,
webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 16:06:02 -0800, evagrius
> <mvasquez...@mail.co.sanmateo.ca.us.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Mr. Bogdan,
> >
> >
> >Well, you know, Jesus Christ might march in a Gay Freedom parade.
>
> You have nit read my post carefully. I did not say whether Jesus
> would chose to march, but whether HE woulld be WELCOMED at a GALA
> parade. Honestly, you believe that the same people that have thrown
> red paint filled condoms at Catholic Christians leaving their places
> of worship (in New York), who see nothing wrong with the homosexual
> lifestyle and who believe there are no moral absolutes would welcome
> Jesus with open arms?
How do you know these people have no moral absolutes? I think many
businessmen have no moral absolutes. If you wish to know where today's
nihilism comes from, don't look at Nietzsche and co. Look at J.P.
Morgan, Rockefeller, Ford, et.al. They only believed in profit,
attained at any price and permanent. The ACT UP people are extreme and
unrepresentative of most homosexuals. The condom tossing is a reaction
to the Catholic Church teaching about birth control which is
unrealistic. The tossing didn't do any good, certainly.
>
> >He might also show up at a Planned Parenthood meeting to discuss
other
> >strategies besides abortion, He might even be at an abortion clinic
to
> >forgive the women and forgive the absent males, ( funny how the
> >abortion debate never mentions the sperm donor's moral
responsibility).
>
> Once again you are not reading my point carefully. I did not say
> whether Christ would choose to walk into a Planned Parenthood meeting,
> but whether Christ's STAND on ABORTION was the same as Planned
> Parenthood's or Truth for Life Ministries. That's a completely
> different issue from what you are talking about.
I don't think Christ's stand on abortion would please either side. I'm
reminded of the story of the woman taken in adultery. Did Christ condem
her? No? Did he forgive her? Yes. Did he condone her actions? No. Did
he support the moralists who were following the Law? No. ( Notice that
all her accusers were men)
The abortion question is not resolvable into simple black and white
answers. It is a complex issue and actually reflects on our inability
to prepare people for relationships, especially young people. Both
sides of the debate do not reflect any thinking on that. They ignore it
because it would necessitate some real thinking about how our societies
prepare young people for adult life. At present, all society seems to
do for young people is prepare them to be good consumers , ( the
capitalist dream), or , formerly, good members of the State, ( Russia).
> <snip>
> >I think you presume on Our Lord's political affiliation. I myself
think
> >that He would be the Archtypal Independent, willing to look at all
> >sides of a question/problem.
>
> I did no such thing. I asked a few simple questions as to specific
> moral issues (abortion, homosexuality) issues and whether Christ's
> teachings are reflected more by liberal secular organizations (Planned
> Parenthood, Act Up and the gov't) or private Christian charities. If
> you haven't gotten that point then I don know how else to express my
> points.
Well, in point of fact, "liberal" organizations do reflect the
teachings of Christ. Laws protecting the weak, old and poor reflect the
teachings of Christ. Laws protecting the working people also reflect
Christ's teaching. Laws protecting free speech, faiths, artistic
expression etc; are certainly not contrary to Christ.
Also, please be aware that private Christian charities receive an
enormous amount of money from the government. Without those funds, the
charities would fade. Those charities are also involved in supporting
people who conservatives would consider as not deserving of help.
> Please, if we are to have a good old fashiones debate, read my posts
> carefully and do not impute and make up issues and statements I never
> made and never said.
>
> Thanks.
>
> BTW - Since you know my name, could you do me the honor of letting me
> know what your first name is. Thank you.
>
Brian Delaney
> What inevitably happens it that the issue is lost and the "liberal"
> launches into personal attacks directed at the messenger and
> disregarding the message. Facts and objective reality is jettisoned
> for rhetoric and name calling.
>
>
That is hardly a monopoly of those on the left of the political
spectrum. There are plenty of those on the right wing (not so many on the
center-right) who can prove points without ad hominem attacks. It is the
extremes on both sides that tend to lose common civility.
Peace,
Brian
P.S. Personally there are many aspects of the Christian Socialist Movement
(in conjunction with the British Labour Party) which reflect Christian
faith and social justice) This has nothing to do with Communism or
"Scientific" socialism. Socialist thought has many strands not all of them
"Marxist"
evagr...@my-deja.com
I have to agree with you. What irritates me is when conservatives wrap
themselves around the cross, claiming that their viewpoint is
"Christian" and implying, therefore, that "liberals" and others are not
Christian.
It is this abuse of religion, as cover for a political agenda, that
angers people.
It is the worst advertisement for Christianity possible.
In article <38229D8...@erols.com>,
sp...@erols.com wrote:
>
>
> webm...@orthodoxnet.com wrote:
>
> > I think you are confused, I was responding to your quote:
> >
> > "I think the point is that Bogdan's version of Jesus would have
> > approved of his political ideas. And when he calls them Orthodox he
> > implies all Orthodox feel as he does --------NOT"
> >
> > Was this not your post?
>
> Yes, but you have me as the quoting person for the lot. I did not
read your post
> as far as my own quote.
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 23:00:32 -0500, sp...@erols.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
baron...@my-deja.com
chooses what "real" sin is for the rest of us? I didn't see arrogance,
gossip, slander, Lying, Divorce, and gluttony on your "Top 10 Sin's Hit
List". You hide behind a black, male, Roman Catholic talk show host and
failed senatorial candidate who you want to change the world to be more
in line with your way of thinking. You will throw in with any religious
group as long as they meet your unquenchable need for significance and
political fervor. And being judged by one such as you makes me giddy,
you silly man. I wonder if you've read about the Zealots of the
Bible-Times! They too were hell-bent of removing the Evil Influences
from their society, too. What happened to them? Also - have you ever
thought about shooting an abortionist? Why or why not? It is killing,
you know...
Baron Kevin
(See, I've got an important sounding name too!)
In article <3821c84b....@enews.newsguy.com>,
proto alban
communism, socialism, and capitalism are economic systems.
Democracy and totalitarianism are political systems.
Capitalism and democracy are not always linked.
Communism-socialism, and totalarianism are not inextricably ried
together either.
For example in Sweden you have a socialist economic system in a
democratic form of government.
In many parts of Latin America you have totalitarian governments with
capitalist economic systems.
IMO China is headed in that direction.
The USA was headed toward socialism with a democratic form of
government, but that has been reversing.
P.S. how did this thread go so badly off-topic, this is supposed to be a
religious board.
Walkermonk
>From: baron...@my-deja.com
>Date: Fri, 05 November 1999 03:50 PM EST
>Message-id: <7vvftr$87g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
<snip>
>Also - have you ever
>thought about shooting an abortionist? Why or why not? It is killing,
>you know...
Dear Baron,
I'm so lost on this last sentence. You had me with you til this (oh no, that
may not be a good reflection on my state of mind!!). What up, dude Baron? Care
to explain?
Queen Grace
(which makes me higher than a mere Baron, I think)
evagr...@my-deja.com
Good observations. There is no inherent relation between economic and
political systems.
It's one of the shibboleths of conservatives; automatically assuming
that capitalism is democratic and socialism totalitarian.
This thread started because of an other thread on Alan Keyes. Mr.
webmaster thinks that Keyes is excellent presidential material for the
U.S. Mr. Keyes' platform is essentially a return to God and morality,
whatever that means.
In article <6845-382...@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>Mr. albann,
>
>Good observations. There is no inherent relation between economic and
>political systems.
>It's one of the shibboleths of conservatives; automatically assuming
>that capitalism is democratic and socialism totalitarian.
>This thread started because of an other thread on Alan Keyes. Mr.
>webmaster thinks that Keyes is excellent presidential material for the
>U.S. Mr. Keyes' platform is essentially a return to God and morality,
>whatever that means.
I think it means just what it says: "a return to a God centered and
morality guided political system". While it may not be entirely
successful I firmly believe it's a step in the right direction. Since
no other candidate (except for Forbes) has even discussed God and
morality in their speaches, it's refreshing to see Mr. Keyes give some
indication that God and values should be guiding our leaders and not
money, power and influence.
baron...@my-deja.com
clear...), Bogdan may have you here. After all, look at the
physical beating and verbal abuse Jesus took from the whores, tax
collectors, lepers, adulterers, demoniacs, mobsters, and drunks of his
day. They beat Him up ALL THE TIME! They were forever trying to trip
him up with philosophical ramblings about the fine points of the faith.
He surely wasn't welcome among them. The people who REALLY accepted Him
were the religious zealots and the morality police - those who wore
their religion on their sleeve. Those who made a big deal about beards
and pews and what not, for they truely possess the heart and mind of
God. They welcomed him with open arms. Bogdan obviously knows htis and
is just toying with you. Sorry to point out the error, Mein Brudder, but
it IS my duty as a Patriarch!
Baron Kevin
evagr...@my-deja.com
Worse than what you've said is.....they ,( the sinners),voted
Republican and Jesus was a Democrat!!!!!!!!
In article <809d95$vqf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>You know, Herr Evagrius (no title for you yet - the check has yet to
>clear...), Bogdan may have you here. After all, look at the
>physical beating and verbal abuse Jesus took from the whores, tax
>collectors, lepers, adulterers, demoniacs, mobsters, and drunks of his
>day. They beat Him up ALL THE TIME! They were forever trying to trip
>him up with philosophical ramblings about the fine points of the faith.
>He surely wasn't welcome among them. The people who REALLY accepted Him
>were the religious zealots and the morality police - those who wore
>their religion on their sleeve. Those who made a big deal about beards
>and pews and what not, for they truely possess the heart and mind of
>God. They welcomed him with open arms. Bogdan obviously knows htis and
>is just toying with you. Sorry to point out the error, Mein Brudder, but
>it IS my duty as a Patriarch!
>Baron Kevin
You're right Kevin, what was I thinking?
Why don't we start by holding a rally to make Clinton and Hillary
saints and also that British artist that did so much for The Mother of
God. We should also write some fun songs about partial birth abortion
and put it to some hip rock beat and sell a few CDs and donate the
proceeds to Planned Parenthood. We should also start celebrating Gay
& Lesbian week in our churches and tell kids that there is no right
and wrong, that drugs and sex is cool anytime, that if it feels good
just go have fun and stop judging. Is that what you want? Is that
why you have such loathing for Alan Keyes?
Let's all shove our faith and its principles in the cellar and keep
our values locked in church. Let's all make sure none of the lessons
and principles we learn leave church or "infringe" on our fun daily
life. Let's all just join hands, hug the Clintons, surrender all our
earthly possessions to the gov't, tell everyone everything is going to
be all right, just keep doing what you're doing, smoke some weed, and
live happily ever after. Why that would certainly bring utopia on
this planet! How come I didn't see it until now! Kevin you've
brought the light of truth into my life! NO IN THIS LIFETIME!
Christ knew what living a Christian life would do: "I came to bring a
sword".
webm...@orthodoxnet.com
>baronkevin,
>
>Worse than what you've said is.....they ,( the sinners),voted
>Republican and Jesus was a Democrat!!!!!!!!
If Jesus was a Democrat would he have voted to defend partial-birth
abortion (like so many Democrats have). Would Jesus pass a resolution
(like so many Democrats have) to recognize homosexual unions as a
"family"?
evagr...@my-deja.com
No, no.no. I think that Jesse Helms should be canonized.
I think that abortions should be banned and the women who give birth
should receive no aid at all; be fully responsible for all pre-natal
care, child care, etc; like the states who are restrictive;( according
to newspaper reports, they are the worst in taking care of children, of
course! The mothers are evil and their children are evil!)
I think homosexuals should be branded and their relationships banned so
that only hypocritical legislators get to keep their boy toys and
legislative aides.
I think that money should be regarded as a sacred object, in fact,
replace bread and wine as a sacrament since what you rant and rave
about is motivated by that sacred element, ( record companies, movie
companies, TV producers only make what sells. It's what the people
want!!! isn't that democracy and the "free market"????)
Mr. webmaster, think through, really think through this; isn't it the
cult of money and profit that is responsible for most of what you're
upset about? Isn't it greed and lust that are the root of the system ?
Isn't it greed and lust, envy and power that motivate capitalism?
"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime" say the French. Do you
think that the wealthy, who seek to keep their fortune and expand it,
are paragons of saintliness?
If you do.....you have a problem.
In article <382b0b1e...@enews.newsguy.com>,
proto alban
Would Jesus have voted to end the entitlement to public assistance?
Would Jesus have denied a treaty to end nuclear tests?
Since we are ALL sinners, would Jesus have singled out Homosexual
sinners as being worthy of greater condemnation than any others?
Or would he have said "let the one without sin cast the first stone"?
sp...@erols.com
proto alban wrote:
Of course not, Alban, and good points. But all these things are
humanitarian love for fellow man and womankind, and have nothing , per se,
to do with socialism. So why that title?
evagr...@my-deja.com
Because the easiest way to preserve unjust privilege is under the guise
of moralism. The easiest way to fight those who struggle against unjust
privilege and false moralism is to accuse them of being socialists or
communists.
In article <382A7533...@erols.com>,
Walkermonk
>Date: Wed, 10 November 1999 12:05 PM EST
>Message-id: <80c8ke$4bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>Mr. webmaster,
>
>
>No, no.no. I think that Jesse Helms should be canonized.
>I think that abortions should be banned and the women who give birth
>should receive no aid at all; be fully responsible for all pre-natal
>care, child care, etc; like the states who are restrictive;( according
>to newspaper reports, they are the worst in taking care of children, of
>course! The mothers are evil and their children are evil!)
>I think homosexuals should be branded and their relationships banned so
>that only hypocritical legislators get to keep their boy toys and
>legislative aides.
>I think that money should be regarded as a sacred object, in fact,
>replace bread and wine as a sacrament since what you rant and rave
>about is motivated by that sacred element, ( record companies, movie
>companies, TV producers only make what sells. It's what the people
>want!!! isn't that democracy and the "free market"????)
>
>Mr. webmaster, think through, really think through this; isn't it the
>cult of money and profit that is responsible for most of what you're
>upset about? Isn't it greed and lust that are the root of the system ?
>Isn't it greed and lust, envy and power that motivate capitalism?
>"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime" say the French. Do you
>think that the wealthy, who seek to keep their fortune and expand it,
>are paragons of saintliness?
>If you do.....you have a problem.
>
I don't have much money and I don't consider the wealthy to be saints because
they are wealthy, but . . .
let us not forget that yes, Our Lord and Savior did hang out with the sinners
but He also often told them to "Go and sin no more." So let us imitate His
great compassion and be willing to die for others, yes, but let's not pretend
the Jesus didn't preach hard sayings. "Repent" being perhaps the hardest.
Grace
R. V. Gronoff
<evagr...@my-deja.com> a écrit dans le message :
80c8ke$4bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Mr. webmaster,
> Isn't it greed and lust, envy and power that motivate capitalism?
> "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime" say the French.
Honoré de Balzac, to be precise:
"Derričre toute grande fortune se cachent de grands crimes."
I think it's from "Le colonel Chabert".
proto alban
I was responding to a posting by Mr. Webmaster, in a thread that already
had that title, easy as that.
R. V. Gronoff
Walkermonk <walke...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message :
19991111152806...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Christianity v. Socialism/Communism
> >From: evagr...@my-deja.com
> >Date: Wed, 10 November 1999 12:05 PM EST
> >Message-id: <80c8ke$4bv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
> >
> >Mr. webmaster,
> >
> >
> >No, no.no. I think that Jesse Helms should be canonized.
> >I think that abortions should be banned and the women who give birth
> >should receive no aid at all; be fully responsible for all pre-natal
> >care, child care, etc; like the states who are restrictive;( according
> >to newspaper reports, they are the worst in taking care of children, of
> >course! The mothers are evil and their children are evil!)
> >I think homosexuals should be branded and their relationships banned so
> >that only hypocritical legislators get to keep their boy toys and
> >legislative aides.
> >I think that money should be regarded as a sacred object, in fact,
> >replace bread and wine as a sacrament since what you rant and rave
> >about is motivated by that sacred element, ( record companies, movie
> >companies, TV producers only make what sells. It's what the people
> >want!!! isn't that democracy and the "free market"????)
> >
> >Mr. webmaster, think through, really think through this; isn't it the
> >cult of money and profit that is responsible for most of what you're
> >upset about? Isn't it greed and lust that are the root of the system ?
> >think that the wealthy, who seek to keep their fortune and expand it,
> >are paragons of saintliness?
> >If you do.....you have a problem.
> >
>
> I don't have much money and I don't consider the wealthy to be saints
because
> they are wealthy, but . . .
>
> let us not forget that yes, Our Lord and Savior did hang out with the
sinners
> but He also often told them to "Go and sin no more." So let us imitate His
> great compassion and be willing to die for others, yes, but let's not
pretend
> the Jesus didn't preach hard sayings. "Repent" being perhaps the hardest.
>
> Grace
"Repent" is actually an order given by saint John the Forerunner more often
than by the Lord. This is because repentance is only a moral preparation to
the reception of grace, which is the very incarnation of the Word of God
within our humanity through the Holy Spirit.
By repentance, we are meant to see sin as it is: something bad that kills
our soul and hurts our neighbour, even by a thought of pride or impurity
(porneia). Then, when the Spirit enters the Christian's soul, He is welcome,
since the soul has learnt, through repentance, to hate sin and to hate
oneself, as a sin lover.
The Word of God (ie our own deification through the Spirit) only says: "Go
and sin no more" and: "I give you my peace, I leave you my peace."
This is all the process of metanoia - and it is all the secret of the
christian souls.
VG
sp...@erols.com
proto alban wrote:
Ok. Sorry for not noticing who started the thread.