Om Mani ?? Hung
Richard Menninger
I have seen several forms for the third word
of this famous mantra:
PADME
PAME
PEME
PEME (with accents on each E)
What is right?
In particular, what is the right pronunciation
of this mantra? And what is your source of information?
Thanks and Loving Eyes to you
Dick
Oliver Seeler
Richard Menninger <rmen...@mldff.mlm.att.com> wrote:
My refuge lama, who is Tibetan, offers it as "peme" (pronounced
peh-may), with the explanation that this is the Tibetan pronunciation
of a foriegn, that is Sanskrit, word.
OMPH,
Oliver
Richard Menninger
Thanks Oliver,
I was pretty sure the d was silent or not there.
My choices were peh-may, pah-may, pay-may. I know
I had a discussion about this many years ago, but
I could not remember it clear enough. That person
was an intellectual dabbler who was stuck at the
first preliminary practice for tantra, but who had
explicit teachings on this.
Actually, it is symbolic that the syllable that
had some confusion associated with it is the one that
is supposed to purify stupidity! Talk about being
a microcosm of the larger sphere!
Again thanks for helping purify some of mine
Dick
p...@dierking.com
Richard Menninger <rmen...@mldff.mlm.att.com> wrote:
>I have seen several forms for the third word
>of this famous mantra:
>PADME
>PAME
>PEME
>PEME (with accents on each E)
>What is right?
>In particular, what is the right pronunciation
>of this mantra? And what is your source of information?
Here is an analysis of the [alleged] original Sanskrit:
om --> om (seed syllable)
mani --> jewel (masculine accusative singular, should probably be
mani.h but the visarga (.h echo syllable) is dropped for whatever
reason)
padme --> lotus (masculine of padma locative singular) --> "in the
lotus"
hum --> hum (seed syllable)
so the literal meaning.. om jewel in the lotus hum
pronunciation..
om as in "dome"
man as in "fun"
i as in "bit" sometimes as in "beet" (depends on your pa.n.dita.h)
pad as in "dud"
me as in "may"
hum as in "boom"
Sometimes you will encounter hum written as hu.m (the dot being under
the m in full diacratics) this is then nasalized like "hoong".
The other variations are butcherings of the [alleged] original
Sanskrit. The opinion of the various Lamas typically depends on
whether they have had Sanskrit training. The Sanskrit has faired
better in some parts of Tibet than others. Some warpings are extreme
as in the common example of vajra becoming benza.
pm dierking
Francesca Reitano
Richard Menninger <rmen...@mldff.mlm.att.com> wrote:
>Oliver Seeler wrote:
>
>> Richard Menninger <rmen...@mldff.mlm.att.com> wrote:
>> >I have seen several forms for the third word
>> >of this famous mantra:
>> >PADME
>> >PAME
>> >PEME
>> >PEME (with accents on each E)
>> >What is right?
>> >In particular, what is the right pronunciation
>> >of this mantra? And what is your source of information?
>> >Thanks and Loving Eyes to you
>> >Dick
>> My refuge lama, who is Tibetan, offers it as "peme" (pronounced
>> peh-may), with the explanation that this is the Tibetan pronunciation
>> of a foriegn, that is Sanskrit, word.
>> OMPH,
>> Oliver
>Thanks Oliver,
>I was pretty sure the d was silent or not there.
>My choices were peh-may, pah-may, pay-may. I know
>I had a discussion about this many years ago, but
>I could not remember it clear enough. That person
>was an intellectual dabbler who was stuck at the
>first preliminary practice for tantra, but who had
>explicit teachings on this.
>Actually, it is symbolic that the syllable that
>had some confusion associated with it is the one that
>is supposed to purify stupidity! Talk about being
>a microcosm of the larger sphere!
>Again thanks for helping purify some of mine
>Dick
Guys:
As I understand it -
there really is no "right."
It depends upon where one is from,
how one pronounces it, or rather
where one's teacher is from,
and how one's teacher pronounces it.
PEME is a Tibetan way of saying
PADME which is Sanskrit
which is the word for LOTUS
which rises up from the muck of this world
pure and stainless
beyond right and wrong.
Peace and Love
F
John Cleaver
>I have seen several forms for the third word
>of this famous mantra:
PADMA is the usual transliteration of the sanskrit word for 'lotus'.
Tibetans mispronounce it as 'pemma'. Similarly the sanskrit word 'vajra'
is mispronounced 'bedza'.
Jack.
Don Martin
>>>>>>> They also mispronounce Avolokiteshvara as Chen-ray-zee.
Aint stupid are they. ;-)
--
Don,
(The born-again Buddhist)
(& again & again)
Andreas Giesen
Hi! Muenster, 02 Jun 96
Richard Menninger (rmen...@mldff.mlm.att.com) wrote:
> I have seen several forms for the third word
> of this famous mantra:
> PADME
> PAME
> PEME
> PEME (with accents on each E)
> What is right?
> In particular, what is the right pronunciation
> of this mantra? And what is your source of information?
I know two versions myself:
OM MANI PEME HUNG
and
OM MANI PADME HUM
While the first one is used within the Kagyu-Tradition to rid oneself of
negative aspects of the ego (OM: egoism/pride MA: yeallousy NI: inherence/
egoistical desires PE: ignorance ME: greed/avarice HUNG: hate/anger), the
second has also an actual meaning as a sentence (which I read in a book at
a friend's but cannot recall right now :).
As to pronounciation - I tend to pronounce it the german way :) In fact it
is more important to have strong believe in the effects of the mantra than
to pronounce it the right sanskrit or tibetan way (Even though this helps
to feel the right vibrations).
I read a story of a wise man who came by a lake with an island in the
middle of it. On the island lived a yogi in a little hut. The wise man
heard the yogi yell a mantra, that was said to enable the man reciting it
the right way to walk on the water. But the yogi recited it wrong, as the
wise man realized. So he thought to himself: "This is a good chance to do
good - I know the right mantra and I can help this poor man." Just a few
steps away he found a boat and crossed the lake to meet the yogi. He told
the yogi about his mistake, the yogi thanked him politely and the wise man
went back to the shore, in an excellent mood. But when he reached the
shore he heard the yogi yell the wrong mantra again, even louder than
before. Angrily he turned around -- to see the yogi walking easily over
the water towards him. Soon the yogi stood in front of the wise man and
said: "Wise man, I forgot the mantra again, could you tell me once more,
how to recite it the right way?"
Bis dann...Andreas
Steve Harris
On Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:15:46 GMT, jo...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("John Cleaver")
wrote:
>>I have seen several forms for the third word
>>of this famous mantra:
>
>Tibetans mispronounce it as 'pemma'. Similarly the sanskrit word 'vajra'
>is mispronounced 'bedza'.
Pema *is* a Tibetan word. The Sanskrit word, padma, was imported into Tibet.
I guess they didn't have a word for lotus since there aren't many lotuses
there. Some years ago, I was involved in typesetting some sadhanas. I got
my lama to agree to replacing all 'bedza', 'benza' and 'badzra' with 'vajra'.
He insisted that 'pema' not be changed to 'padma' since it is a Tibetan word.
When words get imported into a different language, the pronunciation often
changes. I'm not about to start pronouncing my favorite tea 'Dorje Ling'.
People wouldn't know what I was talking about.
I think the best way to pronounce it is the way your lama wants you to.
When my lama gives out mantras, he will pronounce 'vajra' as 'vajra'. When
he does his practice, it is 'benza'. If you're getting your mantras from
books, please find a lama to instruct you.
--
Steve Harris (Pema Dorje) | Real Addr: har...@frii.com
Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Worthless Addr: har...@cosmncd1.cs.mci.com
p...@dierking.com
har...@cosmncd1.cs.mci.com (Steve Harris) wrote:
>Pema *is* a Tibetan word. The Sanskrit word, padma, was imported into Tibet.
>I guess they didn't have a word for lotus since there aren't many lotuses
I not sure whether an extant word-equivalent justifies substitution.
The lotsawas who translated the tantras saw fit (in almost all cases)
to leave mantras in the original Sanskrit. You have to look at the
this glaringly obvious fact first before you can take arguments to the
contrary seriously.
The arguments really hinge on whether the particular system of tantra
and its lineage holders feel that their is an inherent power contained
within the mantras. In this case the original pronunciation should be
adhered to. One of the structural problems leading to the differences
are that the Tibetan language has only 30 letters and Sanskrit more
than fifty. Hence many transliterations of Sanskrit are corrupt in
Tibetan books.
One might reason that if it were not important to the lotsawas (many
worked very closely with Sanskrit pandits to get it right) the mantras
would have been translated wholesale to the Tibetan language.
Of course this can be a sensitive issue to the student who does not
feel they can debate with their teacher about such points, or who feel
their instruction is not to be questioned. It's really up to the
individual.
pm dierking
ZINDERDINE,GEOFFREY KENNETH,MR
>>PADMA is the usual transliteration of the sanskrit word for 'lotus'.
>>Tibetans mispronounce it as 'pemma'. Similarly the sanskrit word 'vajra'
>>is mispronounced 'bedza'.
In Sanskrit it should read "padme", as it is locative, ie. "in the
lotus". There is considerable question as to how the original
Sanskrit was pronounced as it is anachronistic to attribute classical
pronunciation to the Sanskrit spoken in Uddiyana where the Vajrayana
teachings most probably first flourished. Many adepts from northern
India probably pronounced "vajra" similarly to the Tibetan pronunciation
witness modern Bengali's "bozro" (phonetic spelling) for the same word.
Also Sanskrit "phat" is often pronounced in Tibetan "phe" as well as
close to its "proper" Sanskritic pronunciation. The notion of a sole
proper pronunciation of early Sanskrit free from regional dialect is
historically suspect.
>I think the best way to pronounce it is the way your lama wants you to.
>When my lama gives out mantras, he will pronounce 'vajra' as 'vajra'. When
>he does his practice, it is 'benza'. If you're getting your mantras from
>books, please find a lama to instruct you.
You can't get mantras from books so there is little point in such
an endeavour. Without the vivifying force of a guru's realization,
mantras are mere letters. All mantrayana depends upon initiation
of a qualified student (ideally, but how often does this happen
these days:P) by a qualified vajramaster. He *WILL* instruct you
how to pronounce it and I totally agree that that is how one
*SHOULD* pronounce it. Worrying about "proper" grammar and
pronunciation is really a kind of petty mindedness. Mantra is not
denotative or connotative language. It is the actual speech of the
deity, and so one should keep pure view of it and not look for faults
in it lest one break the committment of the deity and render the
entire question moot and irrelevant. Do we really think that the
deity is so stupid that they don't understand our intention?
From a strictly ritualistic (dare I say mimamsika?) point of view,
any errors in pronunciation of the mantra are corrected by the
performance of the fire puja at the end of a recitation retreat.
I am far more afraid of reciting a mantra with no genuine feeling
than softening a dental, or strengthing a labial.
Though mantrayana is an exacting science, one can not underestimate
the role that love and devotion have in awakening mantra. A
compassionate mind is far more of a prerequisite than a rather
mechanical but flawlessly pronounced string of syllables. Being
moulded by a mechanistic world-view is
quite dangerous to a proper understanding of the spiritual import
of mantra. Without devotion practice can turn into a rather
elaborate and mechanical form of egoism. Mantra is intentionality.
If the intention is there, I dont think that poor elocution will
be much of an obstacle.
Yours in Dharma,
Thubten Namgyal ( Baladharavijaya?:P)