Fruit of NA
apogee
AA/NA/RightStep to change my wife from a user who loved her family to a
person who labels me as the reason for her problem, her enabler. Due to
her becoming a 12 step convert, she now chooses meeting with her NA
friends over nurturing her children, spending time with NA friends over
helping her children deal with their emotional reaction to a family
crisis. She went to the hospital and was pointed to NA as her salvation.
NA is a destroyer that teaches people that personal well being is
paramount. The 12 step program teaches extreme selfishness. It
indictrinates adherents to the belief that anyone who thinks there is
another way is an enemy of recovery and would like to see them dead.
I found this group looking for help in getting my wife out of this
pantheistic cult so we can rebuild the marriage her fellow NA members
encourage her to destroy because I will not accept their view of reality.
I, like many, have gotten over drug dependence without 12 steps.
Unfortunately, institutionalized 12step madness pushes those in their
moments of weakness to join the fellowship substance abusers and, in
fact, to choose an abuser to be a mentor. Mention the obvious unhealthy
structure of this organization and you will experience the fury of the
cultist.
The Nolalu Barn Owl
wrote:
WOW! That was sure and accurate description. And they call ALANON
the "Church of the Perpetual Revenge". Sounds like all 12-Stepism is
like that for the unconverted spouse.
Don't react in haste. She likely will need some time to become less
evangelical. In the mean time you can stick around and see what
others in your position have done about it.
--
Gordie
In A.A. I learned that I have an allergy to alcohol.
I also learned that I have an allergy to illogic.
That's why I don't go to meetings anymore.
apogee
speaking against the twelvestep zombies. Perhaps this will pluck a
heartstring of some who are not fully indoctrinated yet are attenders to
the services of NA/AA.
One day I waited for my wife after her counseling session with the Right
Step. She lingered and chatted, which is her nature, with a leader and I
waited on the porch with some who were having a smoke. I was amazed at
the enthusiastic note comparing about former abuse habits. Definitely a
backwards brag session. The intriguing part is that there was a real bond
among them but no shame at all.
Are there some websites which speak truth about recovery?
My wife is leaving three nights a week to go to two meetings followed by
chatting at a pub or coffehouse. She has started a new life, as she
claims, and unfortunately she is now like a 45 year old teenager. Instead
of being a Mom she acts more like an Aunt. Too bad for her our children
see this and do not like her new self-centeredness.
Today she told my 9 year old girl that she would skip her meeting tonight
so my girl could have her playmate visit. More likely one of my wife's
new girlfriends couldn't go out so she stayed home. But it's just that
emotional manipulation that is so wrong. Twisting the situation around so
the daughter feels she may be denying Mom of her Meeting to have a
playmate visit. Truly pathetic.
Craig S.
just start using drugs again so you guys can get back to the good old days
when everything was wonderful?
"apogee" <newhe...@apogee.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9791D92AC14E6n...@24.93.43.119...
GaryRock
GRnews:Xns97919247E962Cn...@24.93.43.121...
apogee
>
> I think you hit the nail on the head Gary
apogee
news:ehpVf.657$6q7...@fe02.lga:
> Wow, what a miserable situation for you, bud. Why not just encourage
> her to just start using drugs again so you guys can get back to the
> good old days when everything was wonderful?
>
Those days were not so wonderful really for anyoneone but her. She had
quite the party till she crashed. Everyone else gave up a lot.
stuart
drinking/using?
Who and what are you upset with, really? NA, AA, or your wife?
There IS a difference between the three, right? I hope you see that.
What are YOU doing to assist in her recovery besides criticizing what she is
trying to do. If she is clean and sober, isn't that at least one positive?
Sure, she sounds like she is an adolescent in recovery, and acting like one
right now.
I would suggest to you to be the "grown-up", understand that she will also
become an adult in recovery sooner or later, hopefully with your support.
Otherwise, YOU are headed for a divorce, my friend.
It's quite normal for a newbie to get totally immersed in their "program" of
recovery for a while. Sometimes, they get so high in their horse, they go
back to the spouse who is naturally resentful that these new-found friends
got her clean and sober when he/she couldn't. She suggests her way of life
for the solution to your resentment. You get further resentful, because for
probably quite a long time, you have felt you have done a far better job of
living that she has. If you don't understand the process and be careful
about how you handle it...divorce is often the result.
Be the adult, my friend. You may have to swallow some of your feelings and
act supportive of her choices. You may not like exactly what she is doing,
but she is clean and sober, right now, is she not?
She'll mature out in time...
apogee <newhe...@apogee.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9791D92AC14E6n...@24.93.43.119...
stuart
>
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the head Gary
Then figure out how to be the man that she needs. Use your noodle, wisely.
>
apogee
not be a destination. It can only serve as a haven of rest until the trip
to the good life continues. Your words ring true.
GaryRock
that.
You are absolutley correct that she may have gotton in with the loser crowd
that are so fucked up that they need to "save" the newcomer. These scumbags
have no idea what they are doing and will fill you full of shit like
- You have to change everything?? The next time you hear them they tell you
not to make any drastic changes in the 1st year. Confused? No kidding.
- Then you have the female men hater crowd that get in their little cliques
and blame all their "issues" on men. They want the new lady to do a "deep"
(whatever the fuck that is) step 4/5 in their 1st 30 days. However the 4/5
they use is usually from some anti male perspective (not related to
drug/booze issues)which fucks the newcomer right up. Hence maybe your
scenario.
- Then there's the "You gotts do this for you only" crowd. No shit. These
guys are fucking rocket scientists. Obviously you got to do it for yourself
but if you are true hardcore, you need reasons such as health, finacial,
mental or to restore your family to list a few.Most of these mouthpiece
quacks can't drink or use because their liver will shut down. Gives them a
soapbox to spew shit.
- Then there's the street/jailhouse crowd who figure they are the "chosen
ones". These are the lowlife's who think because they were shooting dope in
dumpster's or have done hard time they have the most to offer the newcomer.
The street in some of these guys never leaves. Sick fucks. Always angry,
always full of shit on the soap box. Can be identified by statements such as
"If YOU drink or use you will die. Never mention Higher Power (individual
choice) and have no understanding that people come with different and maybe
more serious/complex issues.
I could go on, but you get the picture. There are members that are exact
opposite to these whacko's and who's motto is to " Help the newcomer help
themselves". Many many exist. I don't need to expand because these people
don't need to be justified. They live by the code of Love and Tolerance.
Obviously getting clean (if hardcore) is going to put a massive amount of
physical and mental stress on a person. Females do not do well at this. This
is not a slag but a fact. Read the family afterward in the Big Book. It
will not solve your problem, but it may help you understand. Remember that
the Big Book claims that "We realize we only know a little." Search out
other sources like you did finding this group. They will not solve her issue
but may help you get through.
Another thought might be that she just does not want to get clean but is
just going through the motions. There is not a single "A"
member/shrink/counsellor or whatever in the world that can do anything.
She might want to look at the harm reduction stuff but it of absoslutely no
value to the hardcore in the long run. Just a bunch of do gooder's that
think they can save people. Might work for the boderline user.
You may have got over your drug dependance by yourself but that doesn't mean
everyone else can. How did you do it? Why not ask her to use your method?
Remember, females do not clean up pretty.
I attend CA (newcomers daily, young as 14, old as 69, fucking disasters) and
have seen many many females lose their children and families to dope/booze.
It is the most tragic fucking thing, and like I say, this is a frequent
occurance. Many others have their families back, renewed marriages and their
kids are safe. Some are still fucked up, but they make it through daily.
Let her go through her NA/AA/CA whatever phase. You have no choice. Maybe
she will realize that you don't need 15 fucking meetings a week and that you
don't have to call your sponsor when you break a nail. (I personally do
about 5 meetings a week). Keep hope that this will pass and she will realize
what is most cherised in her life. You and your children.
Remember, now that YOU are clean, you have a massive responsibilty, your
children.
GR
PS: My personal experience with the "NA WAY" is a whole other novel. Fuck
the NA Way.
"apogee" <newhe...@apogee.org> wrote in message
news:Xns97921903CBF23n...@24.93.43.119...
Orange
"She'll mature out in time..."
What evidence is there for that? Isn't the goal of A.A. and N.A. to
get people to never leave the cult?
All of the indoctrination says that you can never graduate and
you can never leave.
People often get worse with time, not better.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
** has cured millions. RARELY have we seen it fail...
** But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
** Take what you want, and leave the rest."
stuart
> Thanks for the perspective Stuart. Good food for thought. The NA trip must
> not be a destination. It can only serve as a haven of rest until the trip
> to the good life continues. Your words ring true.
Unfortunately however, she may discover and possibly quite correctly that
her initial relating to you during your courtship and subsequent marriage
was an extension of her addictive thinking. In spite of how well you have
lived and "put up" with her bullshit both while using and into early
recovery, she might decide you need to be left behind in her life.
The best chance you have is to expect, even initiate a dramatic change in
how your relationship works. Read up on codependency and recovery. Be
creative, and you just might impress the hell out of her as she grows up. My
suggestion is you need to be lovingly one step ahead of her, and not
critical of her efforts, otherwise, you'll end up with the kids, and she'll
end up with some N/A dude who has a couple more birthdays than her, which is
the typical N/A fuckup.
Then, within a year, they're both using again, and you get to pay for it.
Bottom line is you need to be proactive, and demonstrative of your love for
her, not resentful or critical. That's an easy trap.
stuart
Orange <orange...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143388482.7...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> RE:
> "She'll mature out in time..."
>
> What evidence is there for that? Isn't the goal of A.A. and N.A. to
> get people to never leave the cult?
>
> All of the indoctrination says that you can never graduate and
> you can never leave.
>
> People often get worse with time, not better.
Sure, point taken, but when was the last time you spent time in XA watching
anyone over time?
I'd say you are flapping your gums...
GaryRock
challenge just like you do to the A groups. Your WORSE then the brainwashed
bullshitting A's. Result, your a fucking idiot.
GR
"Orange" <orange...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143388482.7...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Orange
What are you doing back in this newsgroup?
Why are you handing out quack recovery information again?
Have you at least stopped claiming to be a doctor?
Doctor Stuart Hydermann, BPHE MSc MD...
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters11.html#Hyderman
Are you still flying your airplane drunk?
Still bragging about your non-existent MRI machines?
FYI all:
Stuart Hyderman is a chiropractor who lives in Edmunton,
Alberta, Canada who pretends to be a medical doctor, and even
lectures real doctors about the MRI machines that his medical
school supposedly has.
He posts under many aliases, with alternate email addresses, including:
"stuart" <hyderman(AT)home.com>
"stuart" <dukenukem(AT)home.com>
"Stuart" <zoo...(AT)hotmail.com>
"fred flintstone" <dukenukem(AT)home.com>
Al \(Stuart\) <hyderman(AT)telusplanet.net>
"stuart" <fred(AT)outerspace.jetsons>
"stuart" <hyderman(AT)telusplanet.net>
stuart <fred(AT)outerspace.jetsons>
"stuart" <drsbh(AT)telus.net>
bluespru(AT)telusplanet.net
"stuart" <ggo(AT)feds.org>
Stuart, when people's lives are on the line, it isn't cool to
pretend to be a doctor and hand out recovery advice.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God
** who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect
** has intended us to forgo their use."
** - Galileo Galilei
GaryRock
shit. Just what she needs to hear right now. Great idea at this point in
recovery. Fuck with her head even more. Give her time before you start
laying this guilt trip on her. The family afterwards talks about this shit
and it might be good for you, but not her at this point.
GR
"stuart" <fr...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:DPyVf.8092$B_1.18@edtnps89...
Orange
"Read the family afterward in the Big Book."
You've got to be joking. The author of that book, particularly
that chapter, was a lying lunatic. Bill Wilson wrote the previous
chapter, "To Wives", while pretending to be his own wive
Lois, where Bill generously confessed all of her sins for her,
like how she was selfish and silly and dishonest when she
supported him while all that Bill did was steal money out
of her purse and drink it up.
Then Bill began the "Family Afterward" chapter with the words:
"Our women folk have suggested certain attitudes a wife
may take with the husband who is recovering.
Perhaps they created the impression that he is to be
wrapped in cotton wool and placed on a pedestal."
The A.A. Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, page 122.
See:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-otherwomen.html
for more.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
* The Sagan rule: "Extraordinary claims require
* extraordinary evidence." The far-fetched claims
* of Bill Wilson that Frank Buchman's cult religion
* could cure alcoholism have not been backed up
* by even a little ordinary evidence, never mind
* some extraordinary evidence.
stuart
life. You are dead.news:1143392307....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
stuart
GaryRock <wh...@ever.com> wrote in message
news:7NzVf.8259$K11.4163@clgrps12...
> Here we go. The codependency crowd jumping in the middle of some serious
> shit. Just what she needs to hear right now. Great idea at this point in
> recovery. Fuck with her head even more. Give her time before you start
> laying this guilt trip on her. The family afterwards talks about this shit
> and it might be good for you, but not her at this point.
> GR
It was directed at the poster. Hes does have to interact with his wife after
all does he not?
stuart
Orange
> I am going to kill you. Watch your back.
Ah yes. Twelve-Step Spirituality. Isn't it wonderful?
Just think folks, ten years in Alcoholics Anonymous,
and your loved ones can become just like Stuart.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** Gandalf said, "The demons of the darkness howl in
** pain when you shine the light of truth on them."
apogee
mention. She told me the other day she doesn't think she likes men anymore.
She runs with a group of women mainly. She parrots the "I gotta do this for
me only" mantra as well. Thanks for confirming there are some bad influences
in NA/AA... it's all a bad enough trip for us without these brainwasher
predators coming into the mix. I would like to know more about the "deep step
4/5 in 30 days". Also, what about "NA Way"?
apogee
stuart is getting a little homicidal, hopefully just hyperbole.
apogee
it impressed me as being very fifties oriented.
apogee
extraordinary something to pull out of the rut that is developing. Good
food for thought. Also, I am already mentally preparing myself for the NA
mentor/predator. I think she has run into a couple of those already. I
detected the fact that some guys were wooing my middle aged wife for
something more than recovery. Flirtatious behaviour is like a magnet to a
women with self esteem is in flux.
Orange
Yikes... some extreme emotions going between orange and stuart... but
stuart is getting a little homicidal, hopefully just hyperbole.
Oh yeh, no big deal. This is old hat.
For years, Stuart has been dispensing quack medical advice,
and for years, many people, including me, have been calling him on it.
I'm not dead yet.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** It may be difficult to to determine where religious
** beliefs end and mental illness begins. -- Elaine Cassel
stuart
email, I wouldn't be posting here with professional credentials. Secondly, I
would not be sharing them with you privately either. You are mad.
Now call the police as I have threatened you. Show your cowardly face. You
publically knock one of the world's most humane organizations and you attack
its members, yet you have no courage to show your sorry face.news:1143401968.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
stuart
Addicts are addicts.
All I am suggesting is to be the best you can be ans allow your wife to run
her own path, as silly as much of it may seem to you. Don't lay anything on
her as suggested by another poster. Just respond.
ps Please ignore my lunatic replies to Orange. I am trying to flush him out
into public view. He knocks XA, and that's OK with me, but he also knocks
people maliciously and nobody knows who he/she is.
GaryRock
a pat on the back. However, who really gives a fuck?
GRnews:1143406222....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
GaryRock
the disease concept and took your Step 1. Thata boy, that means your on Step
2.. Keep up the good work.
GR
"The Nolalu Barn Owl"
<gordie@nolalu.on.ca>
wrote in message news:0vrb22ddiui5q7nj1...@4ax.com...
>
> --
> Gordie
>
> In A.A. I learned that I have an allergy to alcohol.
> I also learned that I have an allergy to illogic.
> That's why I don't go to meetings anymore.
stuart
> I read the family afterward a couple of days ago... some insights there
but
> it impressed me as being very fifties oriented.
It was actually written in the thirties. Sure, we've allre written the BB
many times. Get the general ideas, not the nuances.
Sooner or later it will have to be updated as language does change along
with culture.
It's a Sunday Orange and I know you're bored, so lets have another snide
remark here.
BTW I threatened you so when are you calling the cops so I can see who you
are....
The Nolalu Barn Owl
MUST be an alcoholic response -- ARGUE WITH A SIGFILE!
Have been clean and sober for 20 years. First 2 weeks without a
program. Forced into Treatment. Next 8-1/2 years in AA. Since
spring of 1992 I have been a happy and sober Christian.
NO steps.
NO problems
--
Gordie
"Simplicity is the keynote of our symbol; it follows the
simplicity of our Fellowship. WE_COULD_FIND ALL SORTS OF
OCCULT AND ESOTERICCONNOTATIONS in the simple outlines,"
(N.A. Basic Text - Our Symbol)
We could? Why? BECAUSE THERE ARE!
IF you are Christian and are involved in 12-Steppery then I urge
you to look more closely at your chosen Recovery Program and
see what you find.
Markus
> I read the family afterward a couple of days ago... some insights there but
> it impressed me as being very fifties oriented.
Now you've hit it on the head. The step program is as archaic as they
come. Comparatively speaking, it rates right up there with blood
letting. Another poster says it is a humane program....yeah, right up
until you question the program, and you've seen for yourself the results
of that. You even had one yoyo suggest you start to use again....
couldn't bring himself to suggest you discuss reading about non step
material "with" your wife, no, just some snide bullshit about go out and
use.
Apogee, I think it speaks volumes that there are step folk here
defending the steps....in a group about recovery from the same.
Maybe have your wife read this entire thread and let her decided from
there. If she chooses to stay the course with the steps then it will be
you that has to come to a decision. Dunno what else to tell ya other
than to offer you some links for you to look at as I've not ever been in
your situation (worrying about a spouse that is). And hell, as much as
I dislike the step program, I guess it may come down to who you like
worse, the drunk or the stepper.
As far as links go: This is a subscribe only (easy to do and free) group
that has great info and folks who could prolly better help you:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/
My only complaint about it is it's format. Hard to navigate...
Rational Recovery http://www.rational.org is nothing but a book and
website anymore, but your wife may find them attractive (as it is really
all that is needed, and they also have an affordable subscription if you
so choose to go that route). It used to have a page up about family and
friends of which I can't find on it's site, but found eleswhere. Will
post it when done here. Start out with the "small book" and let her
read it...or for yourself even.
Some links from an old post:
Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
for help, and many other people dislike the religious nature of
12-step programs. If you (or anyone that you know) have an addictions
problem and are seeking secular sources of help, please be aware of
the following (listed in alphabetical order):
LifeRing Secular Recovery (LSR) LSR is a non-religious self-help
recovery organization for individuals who choose abstinence from
alcohol and other addictive drugs, or who are in relationships where
chemical dependency is a problem. The basic philosophy of LifeRing
Secular Recovery is summarized in the Three "S" -- Sobriety,
Secularity, Self-Help. http://www.unhooked.com/lsr/faq.htm
SECULAR ORGANIZATIONS FOR SOBRIETY (SOS) a.k.a. "Save Our Selves"
SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug
addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual content of widely
available 12-Step programs. SOS takes a reasonable, secular approach
to recovery and maintains that sobriety is a separate issue from
religion or spirituality. SOS credits the individual for achieving and
maintaining his or her own sobriety, without reliance on any "Higher
Power." SOS respects recovery in any form regardless of the path by
which it is achieved. It is not opposed to or in competition with any
other recovery programs. http://www.secularsobriety.org/
Sos international: http://www.sossobriety.org/
S.M.A.R.T. Recovery: http://www.smartrecovery.org SMART (Self
Management And Recovery Training), founded in 1994, is based on the
principles of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. SMART is a
time-limited free, professionally advised abstinence program based on
the theory that addictions are learned behaviors caused by faulty
self-defeating thinking, and that one can learn to change that
thinking and also, with practice and repetition, change the behaviors
resulting from it. For groups in your area call (216) 292-0220.
WOMEN FOR SOBRIETY: http://www.womenforsobriety.org WFS is the
oldest--founded in 1975--of the modern (non-12-step) programs, and is
dedicated to helping women overcome alcoholism and other addictions.
WFS accepts the disease model and is an abstinence program. The "New
Life" program helps women achieve sobriety and sustain ongoing
recovery. For groups in your area call 1-800-333-1606.
-Markus
--
To reply, remove 4u
Joe
John K.
"Markus" <mark...@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:LZWdnVfHjKI...@wavecable.com...
<snip a bunch of stuff>
>
> Apogee, I think it speaks volumes that there are step folk here
> defending the steps....in a group about recovery from the same.
>
I guess it depends upon your perspective. I think that it speaks volumes
that, out of the many thousands of step folk on the Net, only a few bother
to post here at all.
John K.
Tim
Go rent "When a man loves a woman" starring Meg Ryan and Andy Garcia. I
think you'll be glad you did.
Peace.
Tim
GaryRock
have to do meetings for the rest of your anyway? Were the bad A'ers forcing
you or were you brainwashed for all those years?
GR
"The Nolalu Barn Owl"
<gordie@nolalu.on.ca>
wrote in message news:s29e22h7nk8orogri...@4ax.com...
Ken
> It's great to find this group. It has taken less than six months for
> AA/NA/RightStep to change my wife from a user who loved her family to a
> person who labels me as the reason for her problem, her enabler. Due to
> her becoming a 12 step convert, she now chooses meeting with her NA
> friends over nurturing her children, spending time with NA friends over
> helping her children deal with their emotional reaction to a family
> crisis. She went to the hospital and was pointed to NA as her salvation.
> NA is a destroyer that teaches people that personal well being is
> paramount. The 12 step program teaches extreme selfishness. It
> indictrinates adherents to the belief that anyone who thinks there is
> another way is an enemy of recovery and would like to see them dead.
>
> I found this group looking for help in getting my wife out of this
> pantheistic cult so we can rebuild the marriage her fellow NA members
> encourage her to destroy because I will not accept their view of reality.
> I, like many, have gotten over drug dependence without 12 steps.
> Unfortunately, institutionalized 12step madness pushes those in their
> moments of weakness to join the fellowship substance abusers and, in
> fact, to choose an abuser to be a mentor. Mention the obvious unhealthy
> structure of this organization and you will experience the fury of the
> cultist.
Apogee,
It sounds to me that you have quickly gotten a good grasp of what the
Step groups are all about. I assume that you will get suggestions from
Steppers who post here to go to Al-Anon or Co-Dependents Anonymous to
get help with your (spiritual) "disease" of loving someone who
drinks/drugs. There is a Step group for _everybody_.
The saddest thing is that there isn't even any evidence that Step groups
work to help anyone resolve a bad habit but actually make many problems
worse.
One of the most important things to help a loved one get out of a cult
is to keep open the channels of communication. Another very important
thing is to learn everything you can about the group. To this end, I'd
like to make some suggestions on reading matter that might prove useful.
One is a book on cults in general called "Combatting Cult Mind Control"
written by ex-Moonie and exit counselor Steve Hassan. He tells a great
deal about the techniques of cults in general and how to help people get
away.
I'd also like to recommend "More Revealed" which will give you a lot of
information about the Step groups and addiction. It is on line at:
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
Also, there is a discussion group that you might find of value called
12-Step-Free on Yahoo.
Best of luck,
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
> Wow, what a miserable situation for you, bud. Why not just encourage her to
> just start using drugs again so you guys can get back to the good old days
> when everything was wonderful?
Craig,
He said nothing about everything being wonderful when she was using. He
is talking about his family being destroyed as so many have been by the
Step cults.
The world isn't divided into "being a member of NA/AA" and
"drinking/using" any more than it is divided into "raging drunks" and
the followers of Reverend Moon.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> "apogee" <newhe...@apogee.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns9791D92AC14E6n...@24.93.43.119...
>
>>It's awesome I got a measure of grace before the storm of retaliation for
>>speaking against the twelvestep zombies. Perhaps this will pluck a
>>heartstring of some who are not fully indoctrinated yet are attenders to
>>the services of NA/AA.
>>
>>One day I waited for my wife after her counseling session with the Right
>>Step. She lingered and chatted, which is her nature, with a leader and I
>>waited on the porch with some who were having a smoke. I was amazed at
>>the enthusiastic note comparing about former abuse habits. Definitely a
>>backwards brag session. The intriguing part is that there was a real bond
>>among them but no shame at all.
>>
>>Are there some websites which speak truth about recovery?
>>
>>My wife is leaving three nights a week to go to two meetings followed by
>>chatting at a pub or coffehouse. She has started a new life, as she
>>claims, and unfortunately she is now like a 45 year old teenager. Instead
>>of being a Mom she acts more like an Aunt. Too bad for her our children
>>see this and do not like her new self-centeredness.
>>
>>Today she told my 9 year old girl that she would skip her meeting tonight
>>so my girl could have her playmate visit. More likely one of my wife's
>>new girlfriends couldn't go out so she stayed home. But it's just that
>>emotional manipulation that is so wrong. Twisting the situation around so
>>the daughter feels she may be denying Mom of her Meeting to have a
>>playmate visit. Truly pathetic.
>>
>
>
>
Ken
> The best chance you have is to expect, even initiate a dramatic
change in
> how your relationship works. Read up on codependency and recovery.
Stuart,
What absolute crap. "Codependency" originated with Steppers who were
still miserable after 20 and 30 years "in recovery" (in 12-Step cults)
so they knew they _had_ to have another disease, another disease treated
by the 12-Steps of conversion to neo-Buchmanism, of course.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
>
>>RE:
>>"She'll mature out in time..."
>>
>>What evidence is there for that? Isn't the goal of A.A. and N.A. to
>>get people to never leave the cult?
>>
>>All of the indoctrination says that you can never graduate and
>>you can never leave.
>>
>>People often get worse with time, not better.
>
>
> Sure, point taken, but when was the last time you spent time in XA watching
> anyone over time?
> I'd say you are flapping your gums...
Stuart,
I've most certainly spent some time in AA and NA and Orange is right on
the mark. And I've also observed that those who one regularly sees
puking drunk on the floor in bars all know all about the Step groups and
all about the "Powerlessness" the Step groups teach. And it doesn't
take Orange's or my observations to know that.
Just look at the research into the Step groups, not the titles, not the
analyses of treatment industry flacks, but the actual research.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>* Agent Orange *
>>* ora...@orange-papers.org *
>>* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
>>* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
>>** Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
>>** has cured millions. RARELY have we seen it fail...
>>** But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
>>** Take what you want, and leave the rest."
>>
>
>
>
Ken
Don't you realize the terrible thing you have done here? One of the
great abilities of the Step groups in recruiting new members is the
"spiritual tradition of Anonymity." As long as no one knows who they
really are, they can hand out bad advice (Step advice) as if they are
someone who knows something about one of the thousand or so "spiritual
diseases."
Now that we all know he is a chiropracter, we might wonder why he is
talking like a medical expert and isn't recommending cracking someone's
spine to cure addiction. :-)
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
> * Agent Orange *
> * ora...@orange-papers.org *
> * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
> * http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
Ken
> You are mistaken, but you should not be mistaken about me threatening your
> life. You are dead.
Stuart,
Very interesting. When challenged on your credentials, you resort to
threatening Oranges life. Is this the kind of thing you've learned to
say from your working the Steps and having gained conscious contact with
God? How spiritual of you. LOL!
Anyone want Stuart to be their sponsor?
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
> First of all, mr anonymous, if I were indeed this fellow you say sent you an
> email, I wouldn't be posting here with professional credentials. Secondly, I
> would not be sharing them with you privately either. You are mad.
> Now call the police as I have threatened you. Show your cowardly face. You
> publically knock one of the world's most humane organizations and you attack
> its members, yet you have no courage to show your sorry face.
Stuart,
Your rally have your head up your ass. I got a lot of death threats
when More Revealed was first published from groupers like you. What a
wonderful spiritual program. You are supposed to be anonymous when you
spout your uneducated, undocumented crap and you go into rage at Orange
for being anonymous, but he is the one who documents what he says on his
web site.
You most certainly should be called for spouting your Step crap, Doctor
Stuart. Ha! Ha!
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
> You dug up some shit on Bill W, Dr. Bob etc. Most of it may be true. You get
> a pat on the back. However, who really gives a fuck?
> GR
Gary,
He dug up a lot of crap on the dishonesty, drunkenness and etc. of the
early members and leaders of AA. I dug up a lot on how cults and AA in
particular work. Do true believers "give a fuck"? Of course not, no
more than a Scientologist cares that L. Ron Hubbard said that starting a
sham religion would be a great way to make money.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
John,
I don't know how surpising it is. Is their a lower ratio of Steppers
here than Scientologists on Scientology-critical Usenet groups or
Moonies on a Moon critical Usenet group?
Moreover, usually Virt floods this newsgroup with off topic accusations
of anyone critical of the Step groups.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
John K.
"Ken" <us...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:7d0ba$44275407$42514c0b$11...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> John K. wrote:
> > "Markus" <mark...@wavecable.com> wrote in message
> > news:LZWdnVfHjKI...@wavecable.com...
> > <snip a bunch of stuff>
> >
> >>Apogee, I think it speaks volumes that there are step folk here
> >>defending the steps....in a group about recovery from the same.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I guess it depends upon your perspective. I think that it speaks volumes
> > that, out of the many thousands of step folk on the Net, only a few
bother
> > to post here at all.
> >
> > John K.
>
> John,
>
> I don't know how surpising it is. Is their a lower ratio of Steppers
> here than Scientologists on Scientology-critical Usenet groups or
> Moonies on a Moon critical Usenet group?
>
see is that a much higher percentage of ARFers post on ARAA than the other
way around.
> Moreover, usually Virt floods this newsgroup with off topic accusations
> of anyone critical of the Step groups.
>
Like I said, you got a *few*, but if 'Steppers' are as bad as some here
claim they are, why aren't there more ? It's not like they didn't know you
were here.
John K.
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
apogee
apogee
I am not going to fall for any 12step program rhetoric anymore. Until these
past few days I was trying to keep hopeful that there might be some merit,
but now I am steeled by the comments of steppers that the whole AA/NA thing
is bad medicine. I will check out your referal info.
GaryRock
GR
"apogee" <newhe...@apogee.org> wrote in message
news:Xns97933779165Fne...@24.93.43.119...
GaryRock
newcomer like you claim the A's do. Better clean up your game or you will
lose these poor soul's to the A's
.
Anonymity. Where's your list of Full Names and Addresses of people who have
recovered using some of the methods you PROMOTE?
GR
"Ken" <us...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:8cad7$44275132$42514c0b$11...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
John K.
> GaryRock wrote:
> > You dug up some shit on Bill W, Dr. Bob etc. Most of it may be true. You
get
> > a pat on the back. However, who really gives a fuck?
> > GR
>
> Gary,
>
> He dug up a lot of crap on the dishonesty, drunkenness and etc. of the
> early members and leaders of AA. I dug up a lot on how cults and AA in
> particular work. Do true believers "give a fuck"? Of course not, no
> more than a Scientologist cares that L. Ron Hubbard said that starting a
> sham religion would be a great way to make money.
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
Of course, hardly anybody outside the 'true believers' circle gives a fuck
either. That makes it tough to sell books.
John K.
Detlef Sax
> I am going to kill you. Watch your back.
Stuart, still the same old asshole?
I don't know much about laws in US. But here I can say for sure it's
a crime to threaten a human. And you're in public. Try google: "ISP
logfile" and at least here in germany we have educated police for
all online affairs.
To the law enforcement you're not anonymous in Usenet. Here I trust
that US authorities are equal or better educated and skilled than
the Germans.
You really don't know how I wish that a german stepper would be so
vocal about his deepest and darkest inside. Akin they are more
careful.
Detlef
--
Webmaster of:
http://www.12schrittefrei.de/
Detlef Sax
> You are mistaken, but you should not be mistaken about me threatening your
> life. You are dead.
And if Orange is careful he will print all your messages out with
the complete news-headers and show it to his local law enforcement
agency or his lawyer. Lawyer seems to me a better choice, to keep
his name and place anonymous until you're arrested.
You're danger to the public.
Ken
> Get your wallet out.
> GR
Gary,
Yes, if he want to read Steve Hassan's book, it will cost him something.
I see Amazon advertizing it new and used starting at $1.48.
More Revealed, of course, is available free online at
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp but if he wants to pay for it
Amazon has it used starting at $9.78.
The discussion group that I recommended on Yahoo, of course, is free.
There is no money to be made by anyone critical of the Step groups in my
recommendations. Authors not only make nothing on used books, but also
make nothing on other authors' books.
I wonder how many thousands of dollars his wife's "treatment" (12-Step
religious indoctrination) cost? I'll bet every one of the Steppers
working there personally profited more, and some far more, per hour than
all the used books would cost including shipping.
Now, where is your concern about money coming from?
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
stuart
Detlef Sax <b...@noart.de> wrote in message
news:slrne2fo...@zottel2.noart.de...
Detlef, he wouldn't have the balls. No one can arrest someone for
threatening anyone with anything unless that
anyone has a name, bonehead.
stuart
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:24:38 GMT, stuart wrote:
> > I am going to kill you. Watch your back.
> > Orange <orange...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> [...]
>
> Stuart, still the same old asshole?
>
> I don't know much about laws in US. But here I can say for sure it's
> a crime to threaten a human.
And what human would that be, Detlef? Some spineless anonymous internet
crank who dares not show his face in public?
He's no human.
stuart
> stuart wrote:
> > First of all, mr anonymous, if I were indeed this fellow you say sent
you an
> > email, I wouldn't be posting here with professional credentials.
Secondly, I
> > would not be sharing them with you privately either. You are mad.
> > Now call the police as I have threatened you. Show your cowardly face.
You
> > publically knock one of the world's most humane organizations and you
attack
> > its members, yet you have no courage to show your sorry face.
>
> Stuart,
>
> Your rally have your head up your ass. I got a lot of death threats
> when More Revealed was first published from groupers like you. What a
> wonderful spiritual program. You are supposed to be anonymous when you
> spout your uneducated, undocumented crap and you go into rage at Orange
> for being anonymous, but he is the one who documents what he says on his
> web site.
I have some respect for you, as you stand up and be counted for your views.
He doesn't.
GaryRock
course! What fucking REAL addict has $2,200 loose.
Mind you free pizza is included.
GR
"Ken" <us...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:aafa6$44282fc8$425148ea$17...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
The Nolalu Barn Owl
>My apologies, your on Step 3. Sounds like pertinient idea c. Who said you
>have to do meetings for the rest of your anyway? Were the bad A'ers forcing
>you or were you brainwashed for all those years?
>
>GR
Must be a trait of alcoholics world wide. The most annoying thing
about AA members was their need to say something no matter what and a
desire to get in the last word.
The whole world doesn't do the 12-Steps. I don't do the 12-Steps.
There is a world beyond the 12-Steps.
I quit AA when I announced that I was quitting at a meeting in the
spring of 1992.
--
Gordie
The only requirement for 12-Step membership is a desire to stop
drinking/using/whatever.
Anyone is a member when he or she says they are.
It also goes without saying that:
Once you have stopped drinking/using/whatever, you no longer meet
the requirement for membership.
Anyone is NOT a member when he or she says they ARE NOT.
EVERYONE CAN cease to be a member whenever they say so.
us...@domain.invalid
> Good work Orange.
Mr Joesph Mellon? er something like that? What's up? Good to read ya.
Markus :)
us...@domain.invalid
Good to read ya again Det. How are things over there in Germany?
Markus
GaryRock
kill you? They sure do a lousy job of being a cult.
GR
"The Nolalu Barn Owl"
<gordie@nolalu.on.ca>
wrote in message news:eiah22di6lgbun0eb...@4ax.com...
Detlef Sax
>
> Detlef Sax <b...@noart.de> wrote in message
> news:slrne2fn...@zottel2.noart.de...
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:24:38 GMT, stuart wrote:
>> > I am going to kill you. Watch your back.
>> > Orange <orange...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> [...]
[...]
> And what human would that be, Detlef? Some spineless anonymous internet
> crank who dares not show his face in public?
Some people in past already tried to get rid of me, but they didn't
told in public that this was a goal. More careful as I wrote.
I'm also against 12-stepissm, it's not a secret and after long
reading in ex-XA lists I also think it's not a usual behaviour in
all the rooms. As the only options to be recruited or to die.
It happens not as a rule, but also not seldom.
Some are sicker than others. You understand what I mean? And staying
anonymous in public if you're against this organization in general
is wise. Heros die early.
And you also try to hide your face in public. Stuart isn't a full
name, can be a first or last name. Both I think are common names.
You didn't gave hints where you exactly located. Nobody really told
you so far here in Usenet to watch your back.
When I created my site in 2003 I didn't had much contacts to people
with bad experiences in XA. I was blue-eyed, only had a few meetings
in past and was sure that the result of some very bad things in life
happened to me, were plots made by XA (AAs and Al-Anons to be
specific). I'm sure today too, but I try not to generalize every XA
as a monster.
So if I would create a website against 12-step-groups today, I also
would be more careful to not give many hints about who I am and
where I am located.
Because it's too late, my name and my location is well known at
least in german stepper-land, I go ahead. There's some left to lose,
ok, but nothing I do much care for.
Nevertheless and btw, I think the 12-step methodes to cover any
deviation from living a normal human life is wrong. Also because
there's no defintion for what is living a normal human life. I
simply think that religion has no buisness to cure humans. It's
selling snake-oil. And it's creating people who make death-threads
in public for not agreeing with their opinions.
See also google: "True Believers by Eric Hoffer"
> He's no human.
That's a sign of pure hate.
Be careful not to hurt some others or yourself while overcoming such
a mood. I think a few years ago it was you who gave me exactly this
advice here. So I give it back to you. And you have to overcome this
mood. Anger can be directed into something good. But hate is far
more difficult to redirect. Speaking only for me, I can say it's
possible.
Detlef
Detlef Sax
In reply to me.
[...]
> anyone has a name, bonehead.
I recall you called me a bonehead some years ago.
My memory isn't so bad.
At that time I didn't saw it as a personal attack, but as a
compliment.
Also today I feel free to see it as a compliment.
Detlef
Detlef Sax
[...]
> Good to read ya again Det. How are things over there in Germany?
Hi Markus
In my hometown, only in the south part, there was a little tornado
yesterday. Came suddenly, out of the blue. Two people died within.
Here in the north-part of the town are no damages. Didn't saw the
full coverage in TV so far. So I'm not sure about the rest of the
town. I'll have to wait for the night-news to see what really
happened.
But I heard the thunders. There were no pauses between the multiple
thunders for at least a complete hour. It was like drum fire. I
never heard that before.
Then "music" from the sirens of police and fireworkers cars for
hours. It was spooky. We never had this before here. It's not a well
known tornado-area. A little wind we always have, a little storm
from time to time sometimes, but no whirlwinds out of the blue and
suddenly.
German-stepper weather report is that a lot of steppers learned to
not bother me. But not all. So nothing much has changed lately in
german stepper-land.
Detlef
stuart
jackass has published a last name as well.
So don't make hasty judgements.
Detlef Sax <b...@noart.de> wrote in message
news:slrne2i8...@zottel2.noart.de...
stuart
All righty, howsabout square-head then?
My ancestors were Prussian mercenaries from the 1700's, Detlef
Craig S.
news:Xns97933779165Fne...@24.93.43.119...
> EXCELLENT !!!
> I am not going to fall for any 12step program rhetoric anymore. Until
these
> past few days I was trying to keep hopeful that there might be some merit,
> but now I am steeled by the comments of steppers that the whole AA/NA
thing
> is bad medicine.
Eh, don't put all your "recovery" idea eggs in one basket. She's been at
this six months? Why not try to be patient and supporting for a while
longer. If a year goes by and your wife's relationship with you and the
family is still in the shitter maybe a little intervention is in order.
Interventions don't just have to be about confronting somebody over drug and
alcohol use. Maybe she'd be willing to do some family counseling with you.
If she's unwilling to consider your point of view after a year of being
straight, well, take the necessary steps to help yourself and your kids when
that time comes.
It isn't all black and white. Some people become swallowed up in fellowship
cult activity. Others learn to back off and gain some balance in their
lives after a period of time.
Orange
"And if Orange is careful he will print all your messages out with
the complete news-headers and show it to his local law enforcement
Yes, but it really isn't worth the bother. Stuart is just a pathetic
mental case. My only concern is that he gives bad advice to sick
people who are trying to recover.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.
Orange
"I don't give a sheeit what you are for or against Detlef. And this
Orange
jackass has published a last name as well."
Wow. What a firestorm. I go away for a day and come back to find
the board all lit up.
Silly boy Stuart, Orange IS the last name. The first name is Agent.
Have a good day.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** George W. Bush is living proof that there *
** is no divine plan of Intelligent Design. *
Detlef Sax
> RE: Detlef wrote:
> "And if Orange is careful he will print all your messages out with
> the complete news-headers and show it to his local law enforcement
> agency or his lawyer..."
>
> Yes, but it really isn't worth the bother. Stuart is just a pathetic
> mental case. My only concern is that he gives bad advice to sick
> people who are trying to recover.
People are different. I would give much to just get one so easily.
Detlef
Orange
"Where's your list of Full Names and Addresses of people who have
recovered using some of the methods you PROMOTE?
GR "
Now that is the propaganda and debating trick called "Make
Unreasonable Demands". As if somebody should go to all
of the work of compiling a list for you.
Can you supply us with a list of all of the members of A.A. who have
10, 15, and 20 or more years of sobriety while doing the 12 Steps?
Please include mailing addresses and phone numbers, of course.
For more on that propaganda trick, see:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#unreasonable_demands
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** Fanaticism consists of redoubling your
** effort when you have forgotten your aim.
** == George Santayana
GaryRock
names? You claim logic and facts. I call bullshit.
GRnews:1143588971....@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
apogee
Ken
> Your buddy Jack Trimpey charges $2,200 (3,200 on the family plan) per
> course! What fucking REAL addict has $2,200 loose.
> Mind you free pizza is included.
> GR
Gary,
I never ceased to be amazed that you get offended when I wonder if you
are on drugs. I recomend some reading about the Step groups by people
who have researched and are critical, and you respond with some
gibberish about what Jack Trimpey (who I didn't mention) is doing as if
that has anything to do with me.
Just for your information, the 12-Step "treatment" I went to cost over
$12,000 for the standard 28-day stay. Not only did they charge an
exhorbitant price, they kept the religious nature of their "program"
secret until after a few days after I was checked in. Both the price and
the dishonesty are not at all atypical of Step indoctrination centers.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
Craig,
I'm not sure about the value of your advice but I wonder if you would
say the same thing if his wife had gotten caught up in the Moonies or
Sceintology.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Ken
> Your the one who blabs about the secret AA anonymity cult. Where's your
> names? You claim logic and facts. I call bullshit.
> GR
Gary,
Too funny. Since the days of Frank Buchman, the AAer's have been
practicing "the spiritual principle of Anonymity." Of course, the
modern-day Steppers have pushed its bounds much further and this,
according to AA literature, so that those who were good at public
speaking and had media contacts could boast of the wonders of the
program winning new recruits and wouldn't cause "the program"
embarrassment when they later got stupid drunk as happened with the
Firestone heir.
Of course, to me that is much closer to "lying through their teeth" than
"spirituality."
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com
Orange
"Your the one who blabs about the secret AA anonymity cult. Where's
your
names? You claim logic and facts. I call bullshit.
GR "
I guess that means "No, I'm not going to compile a list. I will demand
huge
lists from others, but I won't consider supplying one myself."
That's why it's nothing more than a propaganda and debating trick.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** People unfit for freedom -- who cannot do much with it
** -- are hungry for power. The desire for freedom is an attribute
** of a "have" type of self. It says: leave me alone and
** I shall grow, learn, and realize my capacities. The desire for
** power is basically an attribute of a "have not" type of
** self. == Eric Hoffer
GaryRock
GR
"Orange" <orange...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143619835.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Orange
"Come on Orangey, your the cult leader. You can do better then that.
GR "
Oh, so now I'm a cult leader am I?
Well that's flattering, but unfortunately, untrue. I can't find a
single
follower who is kowtowing to me and worshipping me and giving
me all of his money.
Sigh! It would be nice to have a few thousand sycophants
and servants.
Oh well, have a good day anyway..
* Agent Orange *
* ora...@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.orange-papers.org/ *
** Bill Wilson wrote that you cannot quit drinking by
** using your own intelligence and will power; that you
** must have a "Higher Power" doing the quitting for you.
** When I asked Jesus about that, He said,
** "Screw Bill Wilson. I'm not gonna quit drinking."
** ==more jokes at:
** http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-jokes.html
Virtualoso
<GVQVf.635158$qk4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, John K.
<john...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> "Ken" <us...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:1dda1$44275347$42514c0b$11...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> > GaryRock wrote:
> > > You dug up some shit on Bill W, Dr. Bob etc. Most of it may be true. You
> get
> > > a pat on the back. However, who really gives a fuck?
> > > GR
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > He dug up a lot of crap on the dishonesty, drunkenness and etc. of the
> > early members and leaders of AA. I dug up a lot on how cults and AA in
> > particular work. Do true believers "give a fuck"? Of course not, no
> > more than a Scientologist cares that L. Ron Hubbard said that starting a
> > sham religion would be a great way to make money.
> >
> > Ken Ragge
> > http://www.morerevealed.com
> >
> <snip>
>
> Of course, hardly anybody outside the 'true believers' circle gives a fuck
> either. That makes it tough to sell books.
It makes it next to impossible to sell nutty books like that,
apparently. Only the tiny few crAAnks bother with them at all.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Craig S.
I don't doubt the value of my advice. It's as good as any you would get for
the same price.
I don't really put AA or NA in the same class as the Moonies. As far as
Scientology goes, it's a mixed bag - a bit like the recovery fellowships. I
know a couple Scientology practitioners - mostly regular folks. One in
particular is a Scientologist, but his wife isn't - never caused them any
problems. I've known them for 25+ years - good people, raised normal kids.
Joe
Hey good to see you too buddy! BP was here not too long ago. It's not
quite the same around here anymore though...Take care bud. The name
was close... Joe "Smilin'" Milon :-)
Markus
I stand corrected :) Talked to BP once, but haven't seen him for a
spell. Hey, are ya still involved with SMART? How goes that?
-Markus
GaryRock
GR
"Markus" <mark...@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:iLGdnXnrzN-...@wavecable.com...
Markus
> What is the attrition rate in SMART?
> GR
http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/8396012081/m/2721034773
Focus on the section "Will I have to go to meetings forever?"
-Markus
Cujo DeSockpuppet
> You are mistaken, but you should not be mistaken about me threatening
> your life. You are dead.
So much for that Hippocratic Oath, hypocrite. Nice meltdown.
For those who wish to get this nitwit some help, I'd suggest sending
copies of the post to ab...@telus.net as a good start. Send full headers.
For the kookologists, get a load of this dipshit getting smacked around
below.
> Orange <orange...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1143392307....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Speaking of flapping your gums, Stuart,
>> What are you doing back in this newsgroup?
>>
>> Why are you handing out quack recovery information again?
>>
>> Have you at least stopped claiming to be a doctor?
>> Doctor Stuart Hydermann, BPHE MSc MD...
>> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters11.html#Hyderman
>>
>> Are you still flying your airplane drunk?
>>
>> Still bragging about your non-existent MRI machines?
>>
>>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.recovery.from-12-steps/browse_thread
> /thre
> ad/ea581215c5e79491/e17c389fa5e1c4f1?lnk=st&q=MRI+Stuart&rnum=5#e17c389
> fa5e1 c4f1
>>
>>
>> FYI all:
>> Stuart Hyderman is a chiropractor who lives in Edmunton,
>> Alberta, Canada who pretends to be a medical doctor, and even
>> lectures real doctors about the MRI machines that his medical
>> school supposedly has.
>>
>>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/browse_thread/th
> read/
> b42dde06c60407ec/71471e47d053679c?lnk=st&q=MRI+Stuart&rnum=1#71471e47d0
> 53679 c
>>
>>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/browse_thread/th
> read/
> d64fcc9bddf445cc/d49e6b5c081d8676?lnk=st&q=MRI+Stuart&rnum=3#d49e6b5c08
> 1d867 6
>>
>>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/browse_thread/th
> read/
> f6030c07cd215f10/b709cb6085781968?lnk=st&q=MRI+Stuart&rnum=7#b709cb6085
> 78196 8
>>
>>
>> He posts under many aliases, with alternate email addresses,
>> including:
>>
>> "stuart" <hyderman(AT)home.com>
>> "stuart" <dukenukem(AT)home.com>
>> "Stuart" <zoo...(AT)hotmail.com>
>> "fred flintstone" <dukenukem(AT)home.com>
>> Al \(Stuart\) <hyderman(AT)telusplanet.net>
>> "stuart" <fred(AT)outerspace.jetsons>
>> "stuart" <hyderman(AT)telusplanet.net>
>> stuart <fred(AT)outerspace.jetsons>
>> "stuart" <drsbh(AT)telus.net>
>> bluespru(AT)telusplanet.net
>> "stuart" <ggo(AT)feds.org>
>>
>> Stuart, when people's lives are on the line, it isn't cool to
>> pretend to be a doctor and hand out recovery advice.
K00ksign to BURN, bay-beeeeeeeeeeeeee!
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in
dfw.*, alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych.
Winner of the 8/2000 & 2/2003 HL&S award & July 2005 Hammer of Thor.
Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle - Dec. 2005
Fanatic Legions Distinguished Service Citation - 2 FL Unit Commendations
"When the students and newsgroups and world is ready, the master appears"
- Edmond Wollmann, trying ever so hard to be modest.
NYM
"Fred Hall" <fkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e0t198$brc$1...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 05:32:46 +0000 (UTC), Cujo DeSockpuppet
> <cu...@insurgent.org> wrote:
>
What, do you dumb cunts get joy in fucking with people who expose people?
This stuart puke, even if he has massaged you fucknozzles, is a quack
asshole who claims to cure snivelling noses with back cracking, but that
ain't the prollem, dude promotes a religion that says,' if you pray to god,
our way, you won't drink or smoke or gamble or fuck or be fat or spend money
any more, if you will only pray like us, act like us, and be with us' wanna
defend this muthafugga? He is a raging cunt who tried to 'out' someone else.
Dude said, fuck you asshole, here's your stamp. Pick your fights or pick
your asses, the nose nose
Rasta Khan
@blackhelicopter.databasix.com:
> I get joy fucking with fake doctors who issue death threats and
> out other posters.
That's because you're an obsessive stAUKer, Freddyboi.
alt.vagina-fearer.fred-hall added
RASTA KHAN - The Supreme OverLord of alt.config and alt.kookologist.*
Life is like a box of chocolates. It's full of nuts.
_
,;;;
.;;||:.
:;;|||::
,;;;;;||::.
,;;;;;||||||:.
,;;;;|||||||||||.
,;;;||!!!!!!!|||||.
,;;;;|!!!!!!!!!|||||
;;;;!!!!!!!!!!!!|||||
|;;;;;/~\!!!,'~\!!||||
:;;;;;| |!!| |!!|||
:;;;;;;-._;!!`._/!!!!|`.
|;;;;;;|||!!;;;!!||!!|||
____ |;;;;;|||!!;;;|||!!||,'
,- _ _`, |;;;|||!!!;;|||!!||/ ~-.__
/'/~; ; ; ) _--`;;;|||!!!;;|||!!,' "" __.--.\
| ( .---~~--._ _.-~:"" `:;|||!!;;;|||/' ".-~~ `.\
`. ((.;~---._ `-. ,' :"" `:|!!;;;;/' " ; :|.
: ((;##### `-. :,' :"""" |!!;;;/ "" .' __ ;||
: #####| `; `-._ :"""" ||!!;/ "" .' .' ,:||
| ### | `. `-._:""""" `!!!: " : ';||
| ### . `-. `-._____.----'~~~`'`. '|"|
| ### : `. ; .'"||
| ### ; `._ _____ _ .'"|||
| __ \ | |
| |__) | __ _ ___ | |_ __ _
| _ / / _` |/ __|| __| / _` |
| | \ \ | (_| |\__ \| |_ | (_| |
|_| \_\ \__,_||___/ \__| \__,_|
_ __ _
| |/ /| |
| ' / | |__ __ _ _ __
| < | '_ \ / _` || '_ \
| . \ | | | || (_| || | | |
|_|\_\|_| |_| \__,_||_| |_|
--------------------------------------------------------------
Peter J. Ross on Barbara Schwarz ...
"Decided a couple of years ago. She isn't eligible for any more awards.
However, people whose whole lives seem to be devoted to following her
around might deserve something."
Message-ID: <slrndad6r...@nntp.petitmorte.net>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Peter J. Ross on Barbara Schwarz ...
"Barbara Schwarz[tm] is Formosa'ed."
Message-ID: <slrnd1dhhc...@nntp.petitmorte.net>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Kadaitcha Man on newsgroup=snecking ...
"Snecking by kookologists is an acceptable practice."
Message-ID: <4lm6ao$bxe$i...@decomposed-zingers.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Kadaitcha Man
shuntyard-captain who likes hostile mango manipulation with tabby cats,
and whose partner is a sporting-girl with an enormous lap flounder,
wrote in <e0upuh$nh5$2...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com>:
> On 04 Apr 2006 21:18:40 GMT, Rasta Khan
> <SupremeOverlo...@kotm.biz> wrote:
>
>> Fred Hall <fkh...@gmail.com> wrote in news:e0un6j$ge1$1
>> @blackhelicopter.databasix.com:
>>
>>> I get joy fucking with fake doctors who issue death threats and
>>> out other posters.
>>
>> That's because you're an obsessive stAUKer, Freddyboi.
>
> Oh, look, Mr Russell 'One-trick pony' is humping my post.
>
>>
>>
>> alt.vagina-fearer.fred-hall added
>
> So fucking what, lame PizzaTard.
He's expecting you to flip out, rant, rave, make threats, froth and foam.
And why would he expect that? Creating newgroups with someone's anme in them
is l33T!!1!
Kadaitcha Man
tree-shaped limp-wrist who likes hellish courtesy fucks with unicorns,
and whose partner is a garden-tool-mama with a tattered gaper, wrote in
<e0uqs7$ql2$1...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com>:
> 0h, m()Z7 deFYNI73Ly. ! meAgn, LIk3, 17 tAk3s 4 real net-GuRU 7o
> phIGur3 OUt h0W TO s3nD tH0Ze <0MP1YC@t3D conTR0L meSs|\gEs. 1'm juz7
> ZO Und3RW|-|31Med At |-|!s 4bIl|tY 7o D() gn0T on1y t|-|a7, BU7 Als0
> kAn<3l |~|3Ss|\g3z. wE D()n't 0F7En Zee c0()k5 wh0 4rE 7|-|4T
> p|-|34r50|~|3.
IAWTP
Kadaitcha Man
highway traveller who likes relentless manual exercise with toadfishes,
and whose partner is a whore-bitch with a sopping-wet fuzz box, wrote in
<e0ur4q$ql2$2...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com>:
> On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 03:49:10 +0545, "Kadaitcha Man"
> <fuck-you...@kiss-my-big-black-ass.com> wrote:
>
>> He's expecting you to flip out, rant, rave, make threats, froth and
>> foam.
>
> While on that particular subject, if you get bored, check out my
> frogger in alt.fan.prettyboy. The pedo thinks I'm also four other
> posters. The ignorant kiddie fucker is going berserk whilst frogging
> me.
I can't bring myself to subscribe to a group with a name like that.