NO Gays in US Military - EVER
Norman Nescio
Sound Reasons
There are three detrimental effects of homosexuals in the armed services
that form the basis for the ban against homosexuals in the US military. They
are:
1) Unit cohesion is weakened.
Unit cohesion is the social bond that gives rise to that intangible feeling
which causes a man to dive on a grenade to save his buddies, or to risk his
life simply because his leader tells him to. It requires the soldier to
place the needs of the unit ahead of his self-interest and individual
identity. He will do this, however, only if he trusts that his comrades and
commanders are doing likewise. While cohesion requires a strong degree of
mutual affection, sexual emotions are rooted strongly in self-interest. They
can be distracting and even disruptive, and often lie beneath the surface,
not indicated by any overt action or statement.
2) Professionalism is undermined.
The presence of homosexuals in the armed services threatens the military's
highly regarded merit-based system. Sexual attraction encourages special
relationships without regard to rank and increases the risk of favoritism.
Political activism elsewhere in society suggests that weakening the ban
would be followed by quotas and lawsuits if homosexuals were not promoted in
representative numbers. This would destroy the cohesion of a military unit,
and erode the military's successful merit-based promotion system.
3) The risk of AIDS in the services is increased.
Homosexuals contract HIV, the human immuno-deficiency virus, at thousands of
times the rate of heterosexuals and, according to the federal Centers for
Disease Control, two-thirds of U.S. AIDS cases are found among homosexual
men. Testing is imperfect, and may not reveal the presence of HIV for
months. During combat, individuals are exposed routinely to the blood of
others, and frequently require battlefield transfusions from their fellow
soldiers. If the "don't ask, don't tell" compromise allows off-base,
off-duty homosexual sex, will a soldier hesitate to help a wounded
homosexual soldier who may have contracted HIV since his last test? Should
battlefield medical personnel proceed directly to a heterosexual soldier
after treating a homosexual's open wound? Military men and women willingly
accept risks not found anywhere else in society, but should they be
needlessly exposed to a disease that is 100 percent fatal and has no known
cure? Even the Red Cross does not allow homosexuals to donate blood.
These sound reasons against allowing homosexuals in the armed services are
easily understood by the American people. Indeed, most Americans hold the
sensible view that the purpose of the military is to win wars, not to
conduct liberal social experiments. In a recent Gallup poll, Americans
supported the ban by 53 percent, compared to 35 percent opposed.
As most Americans understand, the issue is not one of fairness, but of
military effectiveness. The armed forces exist to wage war. War is fought by
units, not by individuals. Units function best when differences among
individuals are kept to a minimum. When units function well, fewer Americans
die. It is not fair to risk the lives of American soldiers and sailors
merely to accommodate the sexual lifestyles of certain individuals.
Norman Nescio
troops.
Endangering American troops just to placate those who promote a homosexual
lifestyle is irresponsible.
chris_...@yahoo.com
Norman,
I hate to be the bringer of bad news but there have always been gays in
the U.S. military - and there always will be.
The choice is between acknowledging that reality without prejudice or
denying it and forcing it to remain hidden.
I don't suppose you would be much interested in hearing the arguments
for why the former might be better than the latter.
Chris
Allie-cat
Don't waste your breath, Chris. Jimmer doesn't deal with the truth and
would rather live in his own fantasy world where he never has to
confront his own sexuality. Poor thing!
-- A
Newk Indofman
"Norman Nescio" <nor...@donotspam.net> wrote in message
news:ehj0ue$aen$1...@aioe.server.aioe.org...
>
> Sound Reasons
> There are three detrimental effects of homosexuals in the armed services
> that form the basis for the ban against homosexuals in the US military.
> They are:
[snipped Norm's latest jack-off session]
I agree -- no gay people should be in the military. We have better things to
do.
However, I think it would be most beneficial if NO ONE served in the
military.
Alan Ferris
<nor...@donotspam.net> wrote:
>Sound Reasons
>There are three detrimental effects of homosexuals in the armed services
>that form the basis for the ban against homosexuals in the US military. They
>are:
Except they are anything but sound:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A $1.3 million study on homosexuals in the
military, commissioned by the Pentagon last spring, supported
President Clinton's view that acknowledged gays should be allowed to
serve. But its conclusion was rejected.
The 407-page study by Rand Corp. was made public Thursday. Its
central theme -- that lifting the ban on gays could be made to work
without hurting the nation's defenses -- had been leaked weeks ago,
but the Pentagon had refused to discuss it.
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/usa/military/1993/rand.study.publicly.released-8.26.93
Countries that allow homosexual people to serve openly
Argentina[1]
Australia
Austria
The Bahamas
Belgium
Canada
Colombia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Ireland
Israel
Lithuania
The Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Romania
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan
Thailand
United Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gays_in_the_military#Countries_that_allow_homosexual_people_to_serve_openly
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
Maureen
Norman Nescio wrote:
> Sound Reasons
> There are three detrimental effects of homosexuals in the armed services
> that form the basis for the ban against homosexuals in the US military. They
> are:
>
> 1) Unit cohesion is weakened.
>
> Unit cohesion is the social bond that gives rise to that intangible feeling
> which causes a man to dive on a grenade to save his buddies, or to risk his
> life simply because his leader tells him to. It requires the soldier to
> place the needs of the unit ahead of his self-interest and individual
> identity. He will do this, however, only if he trusts that his comrades and
> commanders are doing likewise. While cohesion requires a strong degree of
> mutual affection, sexual emotions are rooted strongly in self-interest. They
> can be distracting and even disruptive, and often lie beneath the surface,
> not indicated by any overt action or statement.
Has not happened in the Brisitsh army
>
>
> 2) Professionalism is undermined.
>
> The presence of homosexuals in the armed services threatens the military's
> highly regarded merit-based system. Sexual attraction encourages special
> relationships without regard to rank and increases the risk of favoritism.
> Political activism elsewhere in society suggests that weakening the ban
> would be followed by quotas and lawsuits if homosexuals were not promoted in
> representative numbers. This would destroy the cohesion of a military unit,
> and erode the military's successful merit-based promotion system
Has not happened in the British Army
> .
>
> 3) The risk of AIDS in the services is increased.
>
> Homosexuals contract HIV, the human immuno-deficiency virus, at thousands of
> times the rate of heterosexuals and, according to the federal Centers for
> Disease Control, two-thirds of U.S. AIDS cases are found among homosexual
> men. Testing is imperfect, and may not reveal the presence of HIV for
> months. During combat, individuals are exposed routinely to the blood of
> others, and frequently require battlefield transfusions from their fellow
> soldiers. If the "don't ask, don't tell" compromise allows off-base,
> off-duty homosexual sex, will a soldier hesitate to help a wounded
> homosexual soldier who may have contracted HIV since his last test? Should
> battlefield medical personnel proceed directly to a heterosexual soldier
> after treating a homosexual's open wound? Military men and women willingly
> accept risks not found anywhere else in society, but should they be
> needlessly exposed to a disease that is 100 percent fatal and has no known
> cure? Even the Red Cross does not allow homosexuals to donate blood.
Has not happened in the British Army.
How can you honestly spout this kind of bigoted nonsense when there is a western
nation with an army with gays serving and none of this has happened?
--
Maureen, living "La Vie Boheme"
There's only us
There's only this
Forget regret
Or life is yours to miss
No other road
No other way
No day but today
I can't control
My destiny
I trust my soul
My only goal is just
To be
There's only now
There's only here
Give in to love
Or live in fear
No other path
No other way
No day but today
Maureen
Norman Nescio wrote:
> Allowing homosexuals to serve under any conditions would jeopardize U.S.
> troops.
Has not happened in the British Army.....
miri
Once an old British commander was asked what kept the British Army
together. He said 'Rum, sodomy and the lash'.
--- M
Fred
To bugger or not to bugger. There was a quote from the "Sand Pebbles",
a book on a crew on an American gunboat in China. It stated that in
order to keep homosexuality down with the crew, the officers would
regularly let the enlisted men out on shore leaven to find female
prostitutes.
Patrick
> However, I think it would be most beneficial if NO ONE served in the
> military.
+ Our military .... or any military?
+ Who do you think will enforce peace in society?
Newk Indofman
"Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:1161647381.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Newk Indofman wrote:
>
>> However, I think it would be most beneficial if NO ONE served in the
>> military.
>
> + Our military .... or any military?
None. Nada.
> + Who do you think will enforce peace in society?
"enforce peace"?
You need help.
Allie-cat
On Oct 23, 5:30 pm, "Newk Indofman" <W...@FullVoice.org> wrote:
> "Patrick" <barker...@erinet.com> wrote in messagenews:1161647381.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Newk Indofman wrote:
>
> >> However, I think it would be most beneficial if NO ONE served in the
> >> military.
>
> > + Our military .... or any military?None. Nada.
>
> > + Who do you think will enforce peace in society?"enforce peace"?
>
> You need help.
It's up there with "friendly fire", isn't it?
-- A
Maureen
Allie-cat wrote:
Or the Catholic Church and morality
--
Maureen, living "La Vie Boheme"
Meet me in Paris on a Champs-Élysées night
We could be in Rome again, 'neath the Trevi fountain light
We should be together, and maybe we just might
If you could only meet me somewhere in Europe tonight
Norman Nescio
> Norman,
>
> I hate to be the bringer of bad news but there have always been gays in
> the U.S. military - and there always will be.
>
> The choice is between acknowledging that reality without prejudice or
> denying it and forcing it to remain hidden.
>
The Armed Services debated and discussed this issue thoroughly, and they
concluded that openly-homosexual service personnel represented threats to
the services. I agree with their assessment and it would be absurd to risk
our service personnel just to placate the desires of homosexuals.
Norman Nescio
news:BUa%g.30098$b23.17172@dukeread07...
>
> Once an old British commander was asked what kept the British Army
> together. He said 'Rum, sodomy and the lash'.
>
Wrong. The quote was that of Winston Churchill, and he was referring to the
British NAVY--quite disparagingly, in fact.
Allie-cat
Norman Nescio wrote:
> <chris_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >
> > Norman,
> >
> > I hate to be the bringer of bad news but there have always been gays in
> > the U.S. military - and there always will be.
> >
> > The choice is between acknowledging that reality without prejudice or
> > denying it and forcing it to remain hidden.
> >
>
> The Armed Services debated and discussed this issue thoroughly, and they
> concluded that openly-homosexual
"openly-homosexual" meaning "not closeted". Don't ask, don't tell.
How immature of them.
> service personnel represented threats to
> the services.
How, exactly?
> I agree with their assessment and it would be absurd to risk
> our service personnel just to placate the desires of homosexuals.
Of course you do. That's because you're a closeted fag!
-- A
Allie-cat
It's also a very cool album by Shane McGowan and the Pogues!
But yeah, Churchill was wrong too esp. considering one of the men
considered instrumental in ending the war and saving thousands of
allied lives ... was gay. Can you guess who?
-- A
Newk Indofman
Healthy homosexuals would not be a risk to the military -- unhealthy
homosexuals such as yourself would be.
Alan Ferris
Why are you lying when it is clear that they found the opposite to be
true:
The 407-page study by Rand Corp. was made public Thursday. Its
central theme -- that lifting the ban on gays could be made to work
without hurting the nation's defenses -- had been leaked weeks ago,
but the Pentagon had refused to discuss it.
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/usa/military/1993/rand.study.publicly.released-8.26.93
--
Newk Indofman
"Alan Ferris" <fer...@peacenik.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tihsj2dqntr975r9j...@4ax.com...
Thanks for posting this, Alan. This response from military officials is
particularly entertaining:
<"While heterosexuals would be asked to tolerate the presence
of known homosexuals, all personnel, including acknowledged
homosexuals, must understand that the military environment is no
place to advertise one's sexual orientation," it said.>
Yet advertisements for heterosexuality are everywhere in the military...
They're just like the RCC, you know? The dynamics of bald-faced prejudice
are identical no matter the setting or source.
Patrick
> >> military.
> >
> > + Our military .... or any military?
>
> None. Nada.
>
> > + Who do you think will enforce peace in society?
>
> "enforce peace"?
>
> You need help.
+ Cain killed Abel. What was the penalty? NONE?
+ Traffic Lights... who will enforce them?
+ Evil pedo's - what do we do about them?
+ Who needs help?
+ You need to think before you open yer yap.
Newk Indofman
> Newk Indofman wrote:
>> "Patrick" <bark...@erinet.com> wrote in message
>> >
>> >> However, I think it would be most beneficial if NO ONE served in the
>> >> military.
>> >
>> > + Our military .... or any military?
>>
>> None. Nada.
>>
>> > + Who do you think will enforce peace in society?
>>
>> "enforce peace"?
>>
>> You need help.
>
> + Cain killed Abel. What was the penalty? NONE?
Then let God -- and not the military -- "enforce peace". Or don't you have
faith that your Savior will be able to do it?
> + Traffic Lights... who will enforce them?
> + Evil pedo's - what do we do about them?
Bizarre. I do believe you're confused.
Patrick
> But yeah, Churchill was wrong too esp. considering one of the men
> considered instrumental in ending the war and saving thousands of
> allied lives ... was gay. Can you guess who?
+ George Michael?
Fred
How to obtain absolution for homosexuals in the catholic church:
1. Homosexual throughts - A series of Hail Marys and Our Fathers
2. Oral sex - gargle with holy wather
3. Penal penetration of any orafice - wash thouroughly with holy water
4. Anal penetration - bath in holy water (Warning: do not fart in holy
water - someone else may need to gargle in it
5. Covering up for a promiscous homosexual clergy - Paying out
millions of dollars in damages.
Question - will all these actions help these guys go to heaven?
Say a prayer for their souls, Patrick!
Constance
Everyone who knows the armed forces knows there are tons of gays and
lesbians in them. I have dined at restaurants frequented by gay officers
who were fairly high up.
There are fairly large units that are all or mostly lesbian and gay.
The millitary simply does not want to be in the middle of an argument
about morality - they have a job to do and it is not to be a
battleground.
---- Constance
Maureen
Allie-cat wrote:
He was disparaging the anti-Fisherite Admirals who opposed Jackie Fisher's reforms
pre-WWI
When they cited the effects upon "tradition" of the Fisher Programme, he replied
"Tradition? The only traditions of the Royal Navy are Rum, Sodomy and the Lash.
Good day, Gentlemen." Some attribute the quote to his assistant, though Churchill
attributed it ti himself.
Maureen
Patrick wrote:
Alison;
Ignore "His Holy Obtuseness;"
Every person who reads beyond the New York Post or The Sun style of
reading knows that it was Alan Turning, one of the fathers of the modern
computer(I dated John Mauchley's daughter in college, btw...)
Allie-cat
Maureen wrote:
> Patrick wrote:
>
> > Allie-cat wrote:
> > > But yeah, Churchill was wrong too esp. considering one of the men
> > > considered instrumental in ending the war and saving thousands of
> > > allied lives ... was gay. Can you guess who?
> >
> > + George Michael?
>
> Alison;
> Ignore "His Holy Obtuseness;"
As ever. I only join in to bait him.
> Every person who reads beyond the New York Post or The Sun style of
> reading knows that it was Alan Turning, one of the fathers of the modern
> computer
Inventor of the "bombe" and master-codebreaker. It was Turing who was
instrumental in cracking the Nazi Enigma codes and bringing the war to
a close.
Then post-war, the British establishment decided to persecute him just
because he was gay. They took away his security clearance and injected
him with estrogen as 'punishment'. He eventually poisoned himself with
cyanide.
And the likes of Jimmer and Barker would like to see us return to those
days?? No thanks!
>(I dated John Mauchley's daughter in college, btw...)
You did?? OMG!!! Wow ....
-- A
Maureen
Allie-cat wrote:
Yuppers---Late 1970's, her name was Eva...brunette, good weed, good music...
Patrick
+ Answer: Nope.
+ Jesus said it best: " Would be better if a person had a
millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than
to abuse a small child."
+ Evil fags don't go to heaven.
Patrick
> Patrick wrote:
> > Allie-cat wrote:
> > > But yeah, Churchill was wrong too esp. considering one of the men
> > > considered instrumental in ending the war and saving thousands of
> > > allied lives ... was gay. Can you guess who?
> >
> > + George Michael?
>
> Alison;
> Ignore "His Holy Obtuseness;"
> Every person who reads beyond the New York Post or The Sun style of
> reading knows that it was Alan Turning, one of the fathers of the modern
> computer(I dated John Mauchley's daughter in college, btw...)
+ Alan Turning?
+ Instrumental in tn ending the war?
+ Did he invent the Amoured tank? or the nuke?
Allie-cat
Educate yourself, Patrick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing
"During World War II, Turing was a major participant in the efforts at
Bletchley Park to break German ciphers. Building on cryptanalysis work
carried out in Poland prior to the outbreak of war, he contributed
several insights into breaking both the Enigma machine and the Lorenz
SZ 40/42 (a teletype cipher attachment codenamed "Tunny" by the
British), and was, for a time, head of Hut 8, the section responsible
for reading German Naval signals."
Etc, etc ..
-- A
Allie-cat
Evil paedos certainly mightn't. But they ain't fags .... as well you
know.
-- A
Constance
He invented the 'Bombe' which decryped the German 'Enigma' coded
messages. Termed the first computer by some.
--- Constance
Maureen
Allie-cat wrote:
He knows, but as a K of C'er, he has to follow the official propaganda line.
Newk Indofman
That's strange... I thought you had said you were in the forgiveness
business.
What's the verdict on evil breeders like you?
Maureen
Newk Indofman wrote:
They will be re-incarnated as disabled chicana lesbians.
Newk Indofman
"Maureen" <Mau...@LaVieBoheme.dis-org> wrote in message
news:45401A0B...@LaVieBoheme.dis-org...
Well, then, may G*d bless 'em! :-)
AMBAN
LOL Okay so I have to learn not to check ARC when I have anything liquid in my
mouth.
Years ago in a state far far away my beloved ex sister-in-law (she got me and
the kids in the divorce) took me to a physic who was a professor at a well known
University near where she lives. The physic said I was a medicine woman in the
hills in a previous life. We have now decided I was a mean ole medicine woman
(like mother Theresa)and I chose to be a patient this time around.
AMBAN
>
>
>--
>Maureen, living "La Vie Boheme"
>
>Meet me in Paris on a Champs-Élysées night
>We could be in Rome again, 'neath the Trevi fountain light
>We should be together, and maybe we just might
>If you could only meet me somewhere in Europe tonight
>
>
--
Maureen
AMBAN wrote:
Neat story Amban, and I am glad that I could bring smile if not destroy yet another
keyboard.
From the NY Times:
People with Most Frequently Replaced Keyboards: Readers of ARC
AMBAN
Oh we buy them in bulk now. I have a room full of them. :-> The boxes say
"Open in case of ARC emergency"
AMBAN
>
>--
>Maureen, living "La Vie Boheme"
>
>Meet me in Paris on a Champs-Élysées night
>We could be in Rome again, 'neath the Trevi fountain light
>We should be together, and maybe we just might
>If you could only meet me somewhere in Europe tonight
>
>
--
Patrick
> Patrick wrote:
>
> > + Evil fags don't go to heaven.
>
> Evil paedos certainly mightn't. But they ain't fags .... as well you
> know.
+ Uhhhhhhh.. how do you tell the difference?
Patrick
> > Evil paedos certainly mightn't. But they ain't fags .... as well you
> > know.
+ Thanks for reminding me.
+ We have a meeting this evening.
+ Would you like me to pray for you there?
Patrick
>
> That's strange... I thought you had said you were in the forgiveness
> business.
+ Evil fag don't usually ask for forgiveness.
+ Have asked yet?
Patrick
> >
> > + Alan Turning?
> > + Instrumental in tn ending the war?
> > + Did he invent the Amoured tank? or the nuke?
>
> Educate yourself, Patrick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing
>
> "During World War II, Turing was a major participant in the efforts at
> Bletchley Park to break German ciphers. Building on cryptanalysis work
> carried out in Poland prior to the outbreak of war, he contributed
> several insights into breaking both the Enigma machine and the Lorenz
> SZ 40/42 (a teletype cipher attachment codenamed "Tunny" by the
> British), and was, for a time, head of Hut 8, the section responsible
> for reading German Naval signals."
+ NCR in Dayton Ohio was THE major participant in the efforts
to breaking the codes on the Enigma machine. We attribute this
effort to a number of individuals. We don't try to memorialize
loozer war non-hero's ... like your Montgomery guy.
Patrick
>
> He invented the 'Bombe' which decryped the German 'Enigma' coded
> messages. Termed the first computer by some.
+Yeah, yeah, yeah....
+ Just like Al Gore invented the internet.
+ Just ask him.
Constance
Read history. Alan Turing's theories made the Bombe possible. It is not
a matter of debate. Public television periodically shows a history of
Blechley park and the extraordinary men and women who worked night and
day to decrypt german enigma transmissions. I would assume that the work
done at Blechley park was shared with the Americans who decrypted the
more difficult japanese 'Purple' cipher.
Among the many strategic strikes make possible by the cryptographers of
that era was the strike that killed General Yamamoto. For more
information on the importance of cryptography in wartime read the book
'Codebreakers' or visit the NSA museum in the DC area if you are ever
down in my area.
Turing's work is still often referred to in computer science. The
measure of a programming language is 'Turing Completeness' for those of
us who wish our programming languages to do more than create interesting
reports. (This statement will get me accused of bias against certain
languages)
The history of WWII could indeed be re-written with the mass of
materials that have been declassified in the US and in the UK.
Learn. It is fascinating !
--- Constance
Allie-cat
You can cover your ears and revel in your ignorance for all I care.
Truth still stands.
And BTW, Al Gore never said he invented the Internet;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore#The_Internet_and_the_Webbys
... then again, you're on record for swallowing any old nonsense.
-- A
Allie-cat
Patrick wrote:
> Allie-cat wrote:
> > >
> > > + Alan Turning?
> > > + Instrumental in tn ending the war?
> > > + Did he invent the Amoured tank? or the nuke?
> >
> > Educate yourself, Patrick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing
> >
> > "During World War II, Turing was a major participant in the efforts at
> > Bletchley Park to break German ciphers. Building on cryptanalysis work
> > carried out in Poland prior to the outbreak of war, he contributed
> > several insights into breaking both the Enigma machine and the Lorenz
> > SZ 40/42 (a teletype cipher attachment codenamed "Tunny" by the
> > British), and was, for a time, head of Hut 8, the section responsible
> > for reading German Naval signals."
>
> + NCR in Dayton Ohio was THE major participant in the efforts
> to breaking the codes on the Enigma machine.
First point;
- NCR came into it *very* late in the game and only then through the
intervention of the British.
- The first attempt at breaking Enigma 1 was done by a Polish man in
the late '30s.
- Only Bletchley Park had the technology to break the Nazi naval
4-encoder ciphers during the entire war.
... etc, etc.
> We attribute this
> effort to a number of individuals.
I never said that Turing single-handedly did anything. I said he was
'instrumental'. It's written above. Can't you *read*?
> We don't try to memorialize
> loozer war non-hero's
Like your freakin' president?
> ... like your Montgomery guy.
Monty wasn't one of ours, sorry. Try British.
-- A
Allie-cat
If it keeps you off the internet and keeps your hands occupied, I think
that would be a very good thing indeed. Feel free to pray for me, while
you're at it!
-- A
Allie-cat
Go ask your parish priest.
-- A
Allie-cat
Constance wrote:
> Patrick wrote:
> > Constance wrote:
> >> He invented the 'Bombe' which decryped the German 'Enigma' coded
> >> messages. Termed the first computer by some.
> >
> > +Yeah, yeah, yeah....
> > + Just like Al Gore invented the internet.
> > + Just ask him.
> >
>
> Read history.
[snip]
All of what you say is true, needless to say, even if you did leave out
the famous 'Turing Test' for machine intelligence and his work on
mathematical theory.
But .....
> Learn. It is fascinating !
... you're wasting your time. Patrick does not wish to learn; that much
is patently obvious.
> --- Constance
-- A (Turing is one of my heroes. Read Hodges' "Alan Turing - the
Enigma" if you can :) )
Newk Indofman
That shouldn't matter.
AMBAN
I guess the K of C has very low moral standards to have someone like Patrick as
a member.
AMBAN
>
>
>--
>Maureen, living "La Vie Boheme"
>
>Meet me in Paris on a Champs-Élysées night
>We could be in Rome again, 'neath the Trevi fountain light
>We should be together, and maybe we just might
>If you could only meet me somewhere in Europe tonight
>
>
--
Maureen
Patrick wrote:
In 1939-40 Alan Turing and another Cambridge mathematician, Gordon
Welchman, designed a new machine, the British Bombe. The basic property
of the Bombe was that it could break any Enigma-enciphered message,
provided that the hardware of the Enigma was known and that a plain-text
'crib' of about 20 letters could be guessed accurately.
Alan Turing made a brilliant contribution to the design with an idea
that he himself related to the principle in mathematical logic that 'a
false proposition implies any proposition.' It was this idea that
overcame the apparently insuperable complication of the plugboard
attachment.
The mathematician Alan Turing had been identified, at Cambridge, as a
likely candidate for code breaking. He came to the Government Codes &
Ciphers School, (GC&CS), in Broadway in London a number of times in
early 1938 to be shown what had already been achieved. He was shown the
rodding method and some intercepts of German signals enciphered on the
German forces Enigma which had the stecker board. Dilly Knox already
knew that the German forces Enigma rotors were wired differently to the
commercial rotors, did not know the entry rotor order and apparently did
not know of the double encipherement of the message key.
Alan Turing had been thinking for some time of ways to attack Enigma.
The main thrust of his ideas was based arround what is now called "known
plain text" and what became known in Bletchley Park as a "crib".
Turing realised that if traffic analysis could be used to predict the
text of some parts of the enciphered messages, then a machine could then
be used to test, at high speed, whether there were any possible settings
of the wheels which translated the enciphered characters into the
deduced characters. More importantly, using his mathematical skills, he
showed that it was far quicker to prove that a transformation from
ciphered to deduced text precluded a vast number of possible wheel
combinations and starting positions.
Letter Pairs
GC&CS already had a few intercepts and at least one plain text /
ciphertext pair, reputed to have been smuggled to England by a Polish
cipher clerk.
Among the characteristics that Turing had found was that occasionally
the same cipher/plain text pair of characters occurred at different
places in the same message. These were known as "clicks" in Bletchley
Park.
.....JYCQRPWYDEMCJMRSR
.....SPRUCHNUMMERXEINS
.......|.|....|.|.|...
Remember that because the Enigma machine is reversible, R->C is the same
as C->R and M->E the same as E->M.
Whether such pairings occur is determined by the rotor order and the
core rotor start positions. Turing realised that conversely the actual
rotor order and core rotor start position could be arrived at by trying
all configurations to see if these pairings were satisfied. This would
only work for an unsteckered Enigma or for a Steckered Enigma in which C
and R were unsteckered. In the early days of Enigma, only six letters
were Steckered so this could happen.
Obviously just setting up a single Enigma machine and trying by keying
in would take an impossibly long time. The next step was to consider how
the tests could carried out simultaneously for a particular Enigma start
configuration.
Testing for letter pairs required a method for rapidly determining
whether such a configuration was true or false. This led to the concept
of electrically connecting together a number of Enigma machines.
This was achieved by using an "opened out" Enigma.
In the actual Enigma electrical current enters and leaves by the fixed
entry rotor because of the reflector or Umkerwaltz (U) and this
precluded connecting Enigmas together. In Turing's opened out Enigma the
reflector had two sides, the exit side being connected to three rotors
representing the reverse current paths through the actual Enigma rotors.
This gave separate input and output connections and thus allowed a
number of Enigmas to be connected in series.
In the Letchworth (so called because the British Tabulating Machine
factory which made them was in the town of Letchworth), implementation,
the clever thing was to include both forward and backward wiring of an
Enigma rotor in one drum. The connections from one drum to the next were
by four concentric circles of 26 fixed contacts and four concentric sets
of wire brushes on the drum. Three sets of fixed contacts were
permanently wired together and to the 26 way input and output
connectors. Three drums, representing the original Enigma rotors, could
now be placed on shafts over the contacts and this was an opened out
Enigma with separate input and output connectors.
To return to the problem of checking whether C enciphers to R, ( written
as C->R ), first an offset reference from the start is required. A lower
case alphabet written over the cipher text gives this.
abcdefghijklmnopq
JYCQRPWYDEMCJMRSR
SPRUCHNUMMERXEINS
..|.|....|.|.|...
This shows that C->R at offset c, e and l from the start and M->E at j,
k and n. The opened out Enigma allows an electric voltage to be applied
to the input connection "C" and a set of 26 lamps to be connected to the
output connector. If the R lamp lights then the drums are in an order
and position such that C enciphers to R.
With a single Enigma this can occur at a vast number of drum settings.
However the crib allows an opened out Enigma to be set up for each
occurrence of C->R and they can all be tested simultaneously.
The opened out Enigmas are all set up with the same drum order and the
drums are then turned to the same settings for the top (left hand) and
middle drums but the bottom (right hand) drums are turned to the offset
letter along the crib at which the test is to be made. All the inputs
are connected in parallel and a voltage applied to the "C" contact. Then
a set of relays connected to each of the "R" output contacts tests to
see if all the R contacts have a voltage on at the same time. When they
do a position of the drums has been found which satisfies the crib at
the points chosen for C->R.
If they don't then all the bottom drums are advanced one position and
the test is tried again. After 26 positions of the bottom drum the
centre drum is advanced one position and this continues until all drum
positions have been tested. Then the drums are changed to try a
different drum order. A very long process by hand which obviously asks
to be automated.
This can be achieved by an electric motor driving all the top drums
simultaneously and then "carrying" to the middle drum every 26
positions, with a further carry from the middle to bottom rotor when
this has turned through 26 positions. In this way the drums can be
driven through all 17,576 possible positions and the occurrence of a
correct position for all C->R in the crib can be checked.
But there are still a large number of positions which satisfy the C->R
test.
What is needed is a better method for finding the rotor order and rotor
setting.
Letter Loops.
An extension of the concept of letter pairs is where letters enciphered
from one to another at different places in the crib resulting in loops
of letters.
For instance R->N at g, N->S at p and S->R at q making a loop. A diagram
showing such loops was known as a menu.But if Steckers are being used
this is actually:
The problem now is to find the core positions S1, S2 and S3. If these
can be found then they are the Steckers of the menu letters.
But Turing realised that there was another way of looking at
interconnected opened out Enigmas and that this way found Stecker
connections.
Take the loop example above of R->N->S->R. Three opened out Enigmas are
connected serially one to the other and the bottom drums are turned to
the offsets g, p and q. If the correct drum order is being used then
there will be some start position of the top, middle and bottom drums
which corresponds to the actual original Enigma core rotor positions
having allowed for the difference between the original Ringstellung and
ZZZ. At this point the core rotor positions will be the same as the
original Enigma core rotor positions and the encipherements will then be
the same.
This means that a voltage placed onto the S1 input of the first opened
out Enigma, which is the Stecker of the input R, will come out on the S2
terminal which is the Stecker of N. Since this is connected to the next
opened out Enigma, this goes in on its S2 terminal and comes out on the
S3 terminal which is the Stecker of S. This S3 input now goes through
the third opened out Enigma and comes out at S1 which is the Stecker of
R. Thus the drum positions correspond to the original Enigma positions
where S1->S2->S3->S1.
The magic trick is now to connect the output terminals of the last
opened out Enigma back to the input of the first Enigma. There is now a
physical wired connection through the opened out Enigmas from the S1
input terminal to the S1 output terminal which is now connected to the
S1 input terminal. This forms a loop of wire not connected to any other
terminals on any opened out Enigma.
Thus if a voltage is placed on S1 at the input it goes nowhere else,
just appears on the S1, S2 and S3 terminals. If a strip of 26 lamps is
connected at the joins between opened out Enigmas then the S1, S2 and S3
lamps will light confirming the voltage path through S1, S2 and S3.
Now comes Turing's really clever bit. If S1 is not known and the voltage
is placed on, say, A then this voltage will propagate through the opened
out Enigmas because they are joined around from output to input, but
CANNOT reach the S1, S2, S3 loop because it is not connected to any
other terminals. The voltage runs around the wires inside the opened out
Enigmas until it reaches a terminal which already has the voltage on it.
The complete vastly complex electrical network has then reached a steady
state.
Now if the lamp strip is connected at the joins of the opened out
Enigmas, lots of lamps will light showing where the voltage has reached
various terminals, but the appropriate S1, S2 and S3 lamps will not
light. In favourable circumstances 25 of the lamps will light. The unlit
lamp reveals the core letters, S1, S2 or S3. These are interpreted as
the Steckers of the letters on the menu.
When the drum order and drum positions are correct compared to that of
the original core Enigma encipherement there is just the one wired
connection through the opened out Enigmas, at connections S1, S2 and S3.
But Turing also realised that such a system of joined opened out Enigmas
could rapidly reject positions of the drums which were not the correct
ones.
If the drums are not in the correct position then the loop S1, S2, S3
does not exists and the voltage can propagate to these terminals as
well. Thus it is possible for the voltage to reach all 26 terminals at
the join of two of the opened out Enigmas. This implies that there is no
possible Stecker letter and therefore this position of the drums cannot
be correct. But because of the way the cross wiring inside real Enigma
rotors is organised, closed loops of connections can occur which are not
the loops corresponding to the actual Stecker connections being looked
for. The configuration of opened out Enigmas cannot distinguish between
these spurious loops and the correct Stecker loop.
The test for a loop of possible Steckers at a particular drum order and
rotor position is to see if either only one or 25 of the lamps are lit.
If all 26 lamps light then this position can be rejected and this
rejection can occur at very high speed. The voltage flows around the
wires at nearly the speed of light so that the whole complex network
stabilises in a few microseconds. What was required was some way of
automating the changes of drum position for all the drums in synchronism
and for rapidly sensing any reject situation.
The Bombe
In 1939 the only technology available for achieving electrical
connections from rapidly changing drum positions was to use small wire
brushes on the drums to make contact with fixed contacts on the Test
Plate. This was a proven technology from punched card equipment. High
speed relays were initially the only reliable devices for sensing the
voltages on the interconnections. Thermionic valves were tried but were
not reliable enough in 1939. Later, thyratron gas filled valves were
used successfully and these were about 100 times faster than the high
speed relays.
The British Tabulating Machine Co (BTM) had designed the opened out
Enigmas and built the Test Plate. The project to now build a complete
search engine, which became known as a Bombe, came under the direction
of H H (Doc) Keen. The machine, known as Victory, was completed by March
1940 and delivered to Bletchley Park. It was first installed in one end
of Hut 1. Now the work began on finding out how to use this new device.
Results at first were not very encouraging. The difficulties in finding
cribs meant that when a menu was constructed between intercepted
enciphered text and a crib, it usually did not have enough loops to
provide good rejection and therefore a large number of incorrect stops
resulted.
There was no mention of Dayton in any of the articles on Turning that I
read.
Dayton seems only famous as the birthplace of Literary Salon Hostess
Natalie Clifford Barney, a :Lesbian in Paris.
Maureen
Allie-cat wrote:
Bernard Law Montgomery, like it or not, was an impressive field commander.
But he was not one of ours.
John Barry, father of the United States Navy, was.
General Phillip Sheridan was...
Marechal Patrick McMahon, Victor of Sebastopol, was....
Sir Henry Wilson, Chief of the Imperial General Staff in WWI was.
Davy Crockett's "Irish Dozen" at the alamo were
Thomas Meagher, commander of the NY 69th in the Civil War, the Irish Brigade,
was.
Confederate General Patrick Cleburne, of Cork, was
Fr Duffy was
"Wild Bill" Donovan was.
Che Guevara was part Irish.
Admiral William Browne, emancipator of Argentina, was one of ours(Co Mayo)
Admiral Charles Beresford was one of ours.
Alan Ferris
wrote:
Barker probably thinks the Hollywood version is true.
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
Patrick
> > >
> > > + NCR in Dayton Ohio was THE major participant in the efforts
> > > to breaking the codes on the Enigma machine.
> >
> > 'instrumental'. It's written above. Can't you *read*?
> >
> > > We don't try to memorialize
> > > loozer war non-hero's
> >
> > Monty wasn't one of ours, sorry. Try British.
> >
> > -- A
>
> Bernard Law Montgomery, like it or not, was an impressive field commander.
+ So was Hitler, Ghengis Kahn, Ho Chi Min....
> But he was not one of ours.
> John Barry, father of the United States Navy, was.
> General Phillip Sheridan was...
> Marechal Patrick McMahon, Victor of Sebastopol, was....
> Sir Henry Wilson, Chief of the Imperial General Staff in WWI was.
> Davy Crockett's "Irish Dozen" at the alamo were
> Thomas Meagher, commander of the NY 69th in the Civil War, the Irish Brigade,
> was.
> Confederate General Patrick Cleburne, of Cork, was
> Fr Duffy was
> "Wild Bill" Donovan was.
> Che Guevara was part Irish.
> Admiral William Browne, emancipator of Argentina, was one of ours(Co Mayo)
> Admiral Charles Beresford was one of ours.
+ I'm sure you feel that many of these folks are well know to someone.
+ As is my Grandmother, Nellie Quaid, who was from Cork.
Patrick
Patrick
>
> Read history. Alan Turing's theories made the Bombe possible. It is not
> a matter of debate. Public television periodically shows a history of
> Blechley park and the extraordinary men and women who worked night and
> day to decrypt german enigma transmissions. I would assume that the work
> done at Blechley park was shared with the Americans who decrypted the
> more difficult japanese 'Purple' cipher.
> materials that have been declassified in the US and in the UK.
> Learn. It is fascinating !
+ I appreciate you trying to widen my horizons.
+ I am at a point in life where I am trying to hang onto
the knowledge and memories I do have. I don't read nearly as
much as I used to, and up til this week, I had never heard of
Alan Turing. Although this is fascinating, I pray there isn't
a test in the morning.
+ Just last week, our newspaper ran an article on NCR and their
secret decryption work that they toiled over during WWII.
Allie-cat
Patrick wrote:
> Constance wrote:
> >
> > Read history. Alan Turing's theories made the Bombe possible. It is not
> > a matter of debate. Public television periodically shows a history of
> > Blechley park and the extraordinary men and women who worked night and
> > day to decrypt german enigma transmissions. I would assume that the work
> > done at Blechley park was shared with the Americans who decrypted the
> > more difficult japanese 'Purple' cipher.
> > The history of WWII could indeed be re-written with the mass of
> > materials that have been declassified in the US and in the UK.
> > Learn. It is fascinating !
>
> + I appreciate you trying to widen my horizons.
Futile, I know.
> + I am at a point in life where I am trying to hang onto
> the knowledge and memories I do have. I don't read nearly as
> much as I used to, and up til this week, I had never heard of
> Alan Turing. Although this is fascinating, I pray there isn't
> a test in the morning.
Then please, in future, don't shoot your mouth off on things you know
absolutely nothing of. That's what started this whole Turing thing; you
being an arrogant dick. Now that you're shown up, you're playing the
senility card. Like, WTF?
If you had any idea as to myself and Constance's professional
background, you might have thought twice about that one. But you didn't
- you just waded on in. As you do.
> + Just last week, our newspaper ran an article on NCR and their
> secret decryption work that they toiled over during WWII.
NCR = National Cash Register. They were big back in those days along
with another little company; International Business Machines. :-)
-- A
Patrick
> Patrick wrote:
> > Constance wrote:
> > >
> > > Read history. Alan Turing's theories made the Bombe possible. It is not
> > > a matter of debate. Public television periodically shows a history of
> > > Blechley park and the extraordinary men and women who worked night and
> > > day to decrypt german enigma transmissions. I would assume that the work
> > > done at Blechley park was shared with the Americans who decrypted the
> > > more difficult japanese 'Purple' cipher.
> > > The history of WWII could indeed be re-written with the mass of
> > > materials that have been declassified in the US and in the UK.
> > > Learn. It is fascinating !
> >
> > + I appreciate you trying to widen my horizons.
>
> Futile, I know.
>
> > + I am at a point in life where I am trying to hang onto
> > the knowledge and memories I do have. I don't read nearly as
> > much as I used to, and up til this week, I had never heard of
> > Alan Turing. Although this is fascinating, I pray there isn't
> > a test in the morning.
>
> Then please, in future, don't shoot your mouth off on things you know
> absolutely nothing of. That's what started this whole Turing thing; you
> being an arrogant dick. Now that you're shown up, you're playing the
> senility card. Like, WTF?
+ You wish to know what is going on?
+ I am trying to appease you and yer lesbo buddy.
+ It seems very obvious that you consider Turing some sort
of great hero of the Second World War. I certainly don't mean to
disillusion you, but Turing wouldn't make it in the top 500 heros of
WWII in my book. I am trying to give you the benefit of your
conviction. I think you are full of shit, but I merely thought that if
I
thanked you for your input, then we could move on toward much
more important discussions.
+ Perhaps you like it when I am less diplomatic?
> If you had any idea as to myself and Constance's professional
> background, you might have thought twice about that one. But you didn't
> - you just waded on in. As you do.
+ Constance is nothing to me.
+ I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
in many historical facts of war. Turing is a dud. He was a cog
in the big wheel. We were turning the crank, and the United States
saved the world from the likes of Hitler.
+ I can provide hundreds of examples, but.... I say let us drop
the subject and llow Turnbull to remain a big hero in your eyes.
> > + Just last week, our newspaper ran an article on NCR and their
> > secret decryption work that they toiled over during WWII.
>
> NCR = National Cash Register. They were big back in those days along
> with another little company; International Business Machines. :-)
+ NCR was HUGE. They had thousands and thousands of employees
here in Dayton Ohio 50 + years ago. Their HQ are still here, although
they have shrunk considerably.
Constance
Amazing stuff. Really i learned about it as entertainment. My mother
was a College professor and liked to watch BBC specials - especially
the ones about WWII. I remember fondly watching the specials on
Bletchley park. Some of the original engineers from the WWII crypto
team have re-assembled a reproduction of one of the WWII bombe's.
For their designated purpose they are almost as fast as a modern
computer. ;-) ....Proves that we are not quite as far ahead as we
thought ;-)
Newk Indofman
> + I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
> in many historical facts of war.
But somehow you've still managed to remain an ignorant shithead.
Patrick
> Patrick wrote:
> > +Yeah, yeah, yeah....
> > + Just like Al Gore invented the internet.
> > + Just ask him.
>
> You can cover your ears and revel in your ignorance for all I care.
> Truth still stands.
> And BTW, Al Gore never said he invented the Internet;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore#The_Internet_and_the_Webbys
+ Gore's words: "I took the initiative in creating the internet."
+ You are right.
+ He did more than invent it. He CREATED it.
Allie-cat
No, you're not. You started off by making disparaging comments about
someone you didn't know (Turing in this case). When you were called on
it, the bluster-machine started. It's still running full-tilt.
> + It seems
WHOPPER ALERT!!
> very obvious that you consider Turing some sort
> of great hero of the Second World War. I certainly don't mean to
> disillusion you, but Turing wouldn't make it in the top 500 heros of
> WWII in my book.
*your* book? What should I care of your book?
> I am trying to give you the benefit of your
> conviction. I think you are full of shit, but I merely thought that if
> I
> thanked you for your input, then we could move on toward much
> more important discussions.
You're so transparent, Patrick! Of course you'd rather it "moved on".
> + Perhaps you like it when I am less diplomatic?
>
>
> > If you had any idea as to myself and Constance's professional
> > background, you might have thought twice about that one. But you didn't
> > - you just waded on in. As you do.
>
> + Constance is nothing to me.
But of course.
> + I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
> in many historical facts of war.
Gee whiz. Aren't you the big expert. You never stop wittering on about
your illustrious 'career' in the military, flying a desk outta
Singapore or whatever the hell you did.
Here's the thing; your career is now over. 28 years is as good as it
gets.
I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
my areas of expertise.
I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
> Turing is a dud.
LOL!!! You arrogant prick, Patrick. Turing is one of the giants of
modern computing. He formed many of the current theories of AI
development and of mathematical models of logic and human thinking. He
is often considered the father of modern computer science.
The reason you're coming out with this nonsense is because he was gay.
> He was a cog
> in the big wheel. We were turning the crank,
Sure, Patrick. Whatever you say?
Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
Alan Turing.
Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
encryption? Alan Turing.
Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
(the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
... and on it goes. Educate yourself, Patrick.
> and the United States
> saved the world from the likes of Hitler.
> + I can provide hundreds of examples,
Provide me with 'hundreds of examples' relevant to the subject (Alan
Turing) and we'll talk. Anything else is just bluster.
>but.... I say let us drop
> the subject and llow Turnbull to remain a big hero in your eyes.
Who the hell is this "Turnbull" person?
> > > + Just last week, our newspaper ran an article on NCR and their
> > > secret decryption work that they toiled over during WWII.
> >
> > NCR = National Cash Register. They were big back in those days along
> > with another little company; International Business Machines. :-)
>
> + NCR was HUGE. They had thousands and thousands of employees
> here in Dayton Ohio 50 + years ago. Their HQ are still here, although
> they have shrunk considerably.
Indeed. And NCR was the company that made the American 'bombe', once
the British had told them about it.
"Once the British had given the Americans the details about the bombe
and its use, the US had the National Cash Register Company manufacture
a great many additional bombes, which they (the US) then used to assist
in the code-breaking."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
Re. my comments on Alan Turing and the Americans playing catch-up.
Today, I tend to associate NCR with cash registers and ASICs.
-- A
Maureen
Allie-cat wrote:
> Patrick wrote:
>
>
> > + I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
> > in many historical facts of war.
>
> Gee whiz. Aren't you the big expert. You never stop wittering on about
> your illustrious 'career' in the military, flying a desk outta
> Singapore or whatever the hell you did.
My son, your nephew, is a combat engineer. Patrick was in supply in the Air Force.
>
>
> Here's the thing; your career is now over. 28 years is as good as it
> gets.
>
> I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
> years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
> 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
> that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
> my areas of expertise.
>
> I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
> cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
And I am intensely proud of you Sis.
>
>
> > Turing is a dud.
>
> LOL!!! You arrogant prick, Patrick. Turing is one of the giants of
> modern computing. He formed many of the current theories of AI
> development and of mathematical models of logic and human thinking. He
> is often considered the father of modern computer science.
>
> The reason you're coming out with this nonsense is because he was gay.
That and Patrick is only familiar with war heroes from American Movies.
>
>
> > He was a cog
> > in the big wheel. We were turning the crank,
>
> Sure, Patrick. Whatever you say?
>
> Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
> Alan Turing.
> Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
> encryption? Alan Turing.
> Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
> (the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
Without Turning, to put it simply, the Battle of the Atlantic would have been lost.
Mercantile tonnage losses would have been irreplacable.
Britian would have surendered.
Germany would have carried out Case Green and invaded Ireland.
Dominion forces would likely have been instructed to end the war.
And the United States would have faced Japan, Italy and
Germany.....alone..............
Patrick
> Patrick wrote:
> > very obvious that you consider Turing some sort
> > of great hero of the Second World War. I certainly don't mean to
> > disillusion you, but Turing wouldn't make it in the top 500 heros of
> > WWII in my book.
> > conviction. I think you are full of shit, but I merely thought that if
> > I thanked you for your input, then we could move on toward much
> > more important discussions.
>
> You're so transparent, Patrick! Of course you'd rather it "moved on".
+ Since you think you NEED to continue the discussion on some
unknown brit hero, please be my guest. I still claim there were
hundreds, nay thousands of heroes that did more towards ending
the world war than ol Turnik did.
> > + I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
> > in many historical facts of war.
>
> Gee whiz. Aren't you the big expert. You never stop wittering on about
> your illustrious 'career' in the military, flying a desk outta
> Singapore or whatever the hell you did.
+ Doesn't matter what you think.
> Here's the thing; your career is now over. 28 years is as good as it
> gets.
>
> I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
> years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
> 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
> that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
> my areas of expertise.
+ Do you have Top Secret clearance?
+ And please..... don't even try to lie to me.
+ We both know that you do not.
> I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
> cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
>
> > Turing is a dud.
>
> LOL!!! You arrogant prick, Patrick. Turing is one of the giants of
> modern computing. He formed many of the current theories of AI
> development and of mathematical models of logic and human thinking. He
> is often considered the father of modern computer science.\
+ I suppose you admire Freud also?
+ How about BF Skinner?
> The reason you're coming out with this nonsense is because he was gay.
+ Really?
+ Either I had forgotten, or... I didn't know (or care.)
> > He was a cog
> > in the big wheel. We were turning the crank,
>
> Sure, Patrick. Whatever you say?
+ You lie, I surely can also.
>
> Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
> Alan Turing.
> Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
> encryption? Alan Turing.
> Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
> (the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
+ Who was the first logistics officer to beddown F-16's in Europe?
+ Who was the first logistics officer to manage a squadron of F-15E
eagles?
+ Does it really matter?
+ Does this make one a hero?
+ Ol Turko doesn't compare to Edison, Bell, Marconi, Ford, or Gates.
> ... and on it goes. Educate yourself, Patrick.
>
> > and the United States
> > saved the world from the likes of Hitler.
> > + I can provide hundreds of examples,
>
> Provide me with 'hundreds of examples' relevant to the subject (Alan
> Turing) and we'll talk. Anything else is just bluster.
+ I have never heard of turnig before last week.
+ How in the world would you expect me to provide examples
of why you think he is important to anyone?
> >but.... I say let us drop
> > the subject and llow Turnbull to remain a big hero in your eyes.
>
> Who the hell is this "Turnbull" person?
>
> > > > + Just last week, our newspaper ran an article on NCR and their
> > > > secret decryption work that they toiled over during WWII.
> > >
> > > NCR = National Cash Register. They were big back in those days along
> > > with another little company; International Business Machines. :-)
> >
> > + NCR was HUGE. They had thousands and thousands of employees
> > here in Dayton Ohio 50 + years ago. Their HQ are still here, although
> > they have shrunk considerably.
>
> Indeed. And NCR was the company that made the American 'bombe', once
> the British had told them about it.
+ What bombe?
+ I was talking about encryption machines. Enigma.
>
> "Once the British had given the Americans the details about the bombe
> and its use, the US had the National Cash Register Company manufacture
> a great many additional bombes, which they (the US) then used to assist
> in the code-breaking.">
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
+ Excellent, thank you.
+ However, my beliefs still stand.
+ You had no idea how to solve your problem.
+ You came to us.
+ We solved it for you.
+ Like always.
> Today, I tend to associate NCR with cash registers and ASICs.
+ So do most folks.
+ But, I won't hold it against you.
+ Turig is still an unknown toad to me.
Karen
slug aka poo bag and "Patdick" <bark...@erinet.com> slimed....
> + I was the first to beddown a F-16's in Europe.
+ Was that before burbra?
Patrick
> My son, your nephew, is a combat engineer. Patrick was in supply in the Air Force.
+ I can't say that I was.
+ I spent 10 years as enlisted - mainly being a mechanic/instructor.
+ I attended the Maintenance Officer Course in 79. I did pretty well.
Do you recall the raid on Lybia? the removal of citizens in Cambodia?
the Faulkland War effort? I've done several things that I am proud of.
> > I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
> > years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
> > 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
> > that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
> > my areas of expertise.
> >
> > I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
> > cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
+ I thought you were a bongo lady?
+ Or a lesbo from Paris or Dayton?
+ Or a witch on the coast?
+ Or a shrink?
Constance
> Maureen wrote:
>> My son, your nephew, is a combat engineer. Patrick was in supply in the Air Force.
>
> + I can't say that I was.
> + I spent 10 years as enlisted - mainly being a mechanic/instructor.
> + I attended the Maintenance Officer Course in 79. I did pretty well.
> Do you recall the raid on Lybia? the removal of citizens in Cambodia?
> the Faulkland War effort? I've done several things that I am proud of.
>
Ah, the Malvinas war. Not to denigrate your service there, but that was
something of a farce.
>>> I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
>>> years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
>>> 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
>>> that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
>>> my areas of expertise.
>>>
>>> I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
>>> cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
>
> + I thought you were a bongo lady?
> + Or a lesbo from Paris or Dayton?
> + Or a witch on the coast?
> + Or a shrink?
>
Patrick - you are confusing the two fine women.
--- Constance.
Maureen
Patrick wrote:
Watch your snipping.
You are mixing up my sister and I
Patrick
>
> Watch your snipping.
> You are mixing up my sister and I
+ HELP!
Allie-cat
Patrick wrote:
> Maureen wrote:
> > My son, your nephew, is a combat engineer. Patrick was in supply in the Air Force.
>
> + I can't say that I was.
> + I spent 10 years as enlisted - mainly being a mechanic/instructor.
> + I attended the Maintenance Officer Course in 79. I did pretty well.
> Do you recall the raid on Lybia? the removal of citizens in Cambodia?
> the Faulkland War effort? I've done several things that I am proud of.
Personally involved in these, yes? Were you one of the ones going
through the embassy windows in Lybia (sic) or manning the choppers in
Cambodia?
.. or were you busy ensuring that the 'real' heroes had an adequate
supply of soft toilet tissue? Gotta wonder.
> > > I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
> > > years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
> > > 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
> > > that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
> > > my areas of expertise.
> > >
> > > I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
> > > cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
>
> + I thought you were a bongo lady?
> + Or a lesbo from Paris or Dayton?
> + Or a witch on the coast?
> + Or a shrink?
I'm neither of these things.
-- A
Allie-cat
depth on this conversation and are now just cranking up the bluster and
bullshit in the hope of somehow saving face.
Ah well ....
Patrick wrote:
> Allie-cat wrote:
> > Patrick wrote:
> > > very obvious that you consider Turing some sort
> > > of great hero of the Second World War. I certainly don't mean to
> > > disillusion you, but Turing wouldn't make it in the top 500 heros of
> > > WWII in my book.
> > > I am trying to give you the benefit of your
> > > conviction. I think you are full of shit, but I merely thought that if
> > > I thanked you for your input, then we could move on toward much
> > > more important discussions.
> >
> > You're so transparent, Patrick! Of course you'd rather it "moved on".
>
> + Since you think you NEED to continue the discussion on some
> unknown brit hero,
Alan Turing is *hardly* unknown. Just unknown to the likes of you.
> please be my guest. I still claim there were
> hundreds, nay thousands of heroes that did more towards ending
> the world war than ol Turnik did.
You can claim what you like. You'd still be wrong.
And I see you've stooped to mocking the man's name now. Not very nice,
now is it .... Pantywank!
> > > + I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
> > > in many historical facts of war.
> >
> > Gee whiz. Aren't you the big expert. You never stop wittering on about
> > your illustrious 'career' in the military, flying a desk outta
> > Singapore or whatever the hell you did.
>
> + Doesn't matter what you think.
Doesn't particularly matter about your glittering career in the
military. It's over now. Move on already!
> > Here's the thing; your career is now over. 28 years is as good as it
> > gets.
> >
> > I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
> > years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
> > 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
> > that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
> > my areas of expertise.
>
> + Do you have Top Secret clearance?
> + And please..... don't even try to lie to me.
> + We both know that you do not.
Hardly, Patrick. I wasn't even enlisted, nor was I within the
jurisdiction. Yes, I worked on US Military encryption and yes, I had to
obtain clearance for that. I worked in the private sector ... go do the
math.
> > I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
> > cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
> >
> > > Turing is a dud.
> >
> > LOL!!! You arrogant prick, Patrick. Turing is one of the giants of
> > modern computing. He formed many of the current theories of AI
> > development and of mathematical models of logic and human thinking. He
> > is often considered the father of modern computer science.\
>
> + I suppose you admire Freud also?
Not particularly. I more a fan of Jung, Maslow and to an extent, Adler.
Why?
> + How about BF Skinner?
Not a big fan of Skinner, either, esp. as a lot of his work has now
been superseded. He had a lot of interesting things to say about the
origins of superstition, though, which brings us back to the subject in
hand.
> > The reason you're coming out with this nonsense is because he was gay.
>
> + Really?
> + Either I had forgotten, or... I didn't know (or care.)
Ah - the short-term memory thing again.
> > > He was a cog
> > > in the big wheel. We were turning the crank,
> >
> > Sure, Patrick. Whatever you say?
>
> + You lie, I surely can also.
I'm not lying.
> > Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
> > Alan Turing.
> > Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
> > encryption? Alan Turing.
> > Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
> > (the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
>
> + Who was the first logistics officer to beddown F-16's in Europe?
> + Who was the first logistics officer to manage a squadron of F-15E
> eagles?
My goodness. They had F15s and F16s in WWII? I'm impressed! The US kept
that one secret for a long time.
> + Does it really matter?
> + Does this make one a hero?
No, it doesn't. Not at all. However, in Turing's case, his
contributions were gargantuan.
> + Ol Turko doesn't compare to Edison, Bell, Marconi, Ford, or Gates.
Who the hell is Turko, Pattywank?
> > ... and on it goes. Educate yourself, Patrick.
> >
> > > and the United States
> > > saved the world from the likes of Hitler.
> > > + I can provide hundreds of examples,
> >
> > Provide me with 'hundreds of examples' relevant to the subject (Alan
> > Turing) and we'll talk. Anything else is just bluster.
>
> + I have never heard of turnig before last week.
Didn't stop you from spouting lies about him, now did it?
> + How in the world would you expect me to provide examples
> of why you think he is important to anyone?
Because you opened your big, flappy gob about the man in the first
place. Then when you were called on it, you ran and hid. As, indeed,
you are now.
> > > + NCR was HUGE. They had thousands and thousands of employees
> > > here in Dayton Ohio 50 + years ago. Their HQ are still here, although
> > > they have shrunk considerably.
> >
> > Indeed. And NCR was the company that made the American 'bombe', once
> > the British had told them about it.
>
> + What bombe?
Didn't you read the link?
> + I was talking about encryption machines. Enigma.
As was I. The 'bombe' was the name for the Enigma decryption device,
invented by Turing and deployed successfully by the British in
decrypting Nazi communications.
The same device that the British gave to the Americans who went on to
perfect it. Actually, at NCR, they managed to make the device a lot
faster than the British could.
> > "Once the British had given the Americans the details about the bombe
> > and its use, the US had the National Cash Register Company manufacture
> > a great many additional bombes, which they (the US) then used to assist
> > in the code-breaking.">
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
>
> + Excellent, thank you.
> + However, my beliefs still stand.
Well, don't let the facts get in the way of your 'beliefs', after all,
that's the Catholic way.
> + You had no idea how to solve your problem.
> + You came to us.
> + We solved it for you.
> + Like always.
Actually, the complete reverse was true, Nice try again.
BTW - what's with this "they" and "us" business?
> > Today, I tend to associate NCR with cash registers and ASICs.
>
> + So do most folks.
Most folks know about ASICs? Do tell .....
> + But, I won't hold it against you.
> + Turig is still an unknown toad to me.
Badge of honour once again. Your knowledge of cryptography and its
history as well as the origins of modern computing is sadly lacking.
However, that doesn't stop you shooting your mouth off on the subject.
-- A
miri
Edison ? If we followed his thinking we would be running direct current
nowadays. I'll go with Tesla as a hero.
Bell - great practical inventor.
Marconi - now you are talking.
Ford - what did he invent ?
Gates - what did he invent ? Good businessman and a generous
philanthropist, but as far as inventors - not really.
--- Toni
Toni
> Allie-cat wrote:
>> Patrick wrote:
>>> very obvious that you consider Turing some sort
>>> of great hero of the Second World War. I certainly don't mean to
>>> disillusion you, but Turing wouldn't make it in the top 500 heros of
>>> WWII in my book.
>>> I am trying to give you the benefit of your
>>> conviction. I think you are full of shit, but I merely thought that if
>>> I thanked you for your input, then we could move on toward much
>>> more important discussions.
>> You're so transparent, Patrick! Of course you'd rather it "moved on".
>
> + Since you think you NEED to continue the discussion on some
> unknown brit hero, please be my guest. I still claim there were
> hundreds, nay thousands of heroes that did more towards ending
> the world war than ol Turnik did.
>
>
Unknown - you don't even know your own history.
Freud was right about Austrian society of the time. Many of the myths he
used are less important to nowadays people and given the group we are in
i think he gave far too little of an emphasis on the power of religion.
Skinner - Ugh !
>
>> The reason you're coming out with this nonsense is because he was gay.
>
> + Really?
> + Either I had forgotten, or... I didn't know (or care.)
>
>
>>> He was a cog
>>> in the big wheel. We were turning the crank,
>> Sure, Patrick. Whatever you say?
>
> + You lie, I surely can also.
>
>> Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
>> Alan Turing.
>> Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
>> encryption? Alan Turing.
>> Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
>> (the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
>
> + Who was the first logistics officer to beddown F-16's in Europe?
> + Who was the first logistics officer to manage a squadron of F-15E
> eagles?
>
> + Does it really matter?
> + Does this make one a hero?
> + Ol Turko doesn't compare to Edison, Bell, Marconi, Ford, or Gates.
>
Edison - are we running direct current nowadays on our grids ? Nope.
Tesla won in the long run. Westinghouse not Edison....
Bell -- good practical man.
Marconi - now you are talking....
Ford - what did he invent ? Nada. Just another in the genre of the
robber barons.
Gates - ambitious young man in the right place at the right time and
with good business sense. Great philanthropist but really - not much
of an inventor. Of course as one of the unix authors said recently there
is not that much going on in operating system research any more - it is
all just practical stuff.
>
>> ... and on it goes. Educate yourself, Patrick.
>>
>>> and the United States
>>> saved the world from the likes of Hitler.
>>> + I can provide hundreds of examples,
>> Provide me with 'hundreds of examples' relevant to the subject (Alan
>> Turing) and we'll talk. Anything else is just bluster.
>
> + I have never heard of turnig before last week.
> + How in the world would you expect me to provide examples
> of why you think he is important to anyone?
>
>
>>> but.... I say let us drop
>>> the subject and llow Turnbull to remain a big hero in your eyes.
>> Who the hell is this "Turnbull" person?
>>
>>>>> + Just last week, our newspaper ran an article on NCR and their
>>>>> secret decryption work that they toiled over during WWII.
>>>> NCR = National Cash Register. They were big back in those days along
>>>> with another little company; International Business Machines. :-)
>>> + NCR was HUGE. They had thousands and thousands of employees
>>> here in Dayton Ohio 50 + years ago. Their HQ are still here, although
>>> they have shrunk considerably.
>> Indeed. And NCR was the company that made the American 'bombe', once
>> the British had told them about it.
>
> + What bombe?
> + I was talking about encryption machines. Enigma.
>
Ummmm .... The bombe was the device that was used to break Enigma.
Bletchley park sound familiar to you ?
>> "Once the British had given the Americans the details about the bombe
>> and its use, the US had the National Cash Register Company manufacture
>> a great many additional bombes, which they (the US) then used to assist
>> in the code-breaking.">
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
>
> + Excellent, thank you.
> + However, my beliefs still stand.
> + You had no idea how to solve your problem.
> + You came to us.
> + We solved it for you.
> + Like always.
>
>
>> Today, I tend to associate NCR with cash registers and ASICs.
>
> + So do most folks.
> + But, I won't hold it against you.
> + Turig is still an unknown toad to me.
>
Read.
--- Toni
Allie-cat
> Patrick wrote:
> > + Does it really matter?
> > + Does this make one a hero?
> > + Ol Turko doesn't compare to Edison, Bell, Marconi, Ford, or Gates.
>
> Edison ? If we followed his thinking we would be running direct current
> nowadays. I'll go with Tesla as a hero.
I hear ya there!
> Bell - great practical inventor.
>
> Marconi - now you are talking.
An Irish-Italian gentleman, I believe.
> Ford - what did he invent ?
>
> Gates - what did he invent ? Good businessman and a generous
> philanthropist, but as far as inventors - not really.
Exactly. He's a shrewd (some would say 'ruthless, unethical')
businessman, but not an innovator. MSDOS = cheap ripoff of QDOS.
Windows = cheap ripoff of what would later be OS/2, etc, etc
> --- Toni
Nice to see you here too, Toni :)
-- A
Patrick
> It's pretty obvious at this stage that you're completely out of your
> depth on this conversation and are now just cranking up the bluster and
> bullshit in the hope of somehow saving face.
+ IOW, this is getting too long for you to take the time and read.
+ Me too.
+ I will address the stupidest of your comments...
> Ah well ....
>
> Patrick wrote:
> > Allie-cat wrote:
> > > Patrick wrote:
> > > > very obvious that you consider Turing some sort
> > > > of great hero of the Second World War. I certainly don't mean to
> > > > disillusion you, but Turing wouldn't make it in the top 500 heros of
> > > > WWII in my book.
> > > > I am trying to give you the benefit of your
> > > > conviction. I think you are full of shit, but I merely thought that if
> > > > I thanked you for your input, then we could move on toward much
> > > > more important discussions.
> > >
> > > You're so transparent, Patrick! Of course you'd rather it "moved on".
> >
> > + Since you think you NEED to continue the discussion on some
> > unknown brit hero,
>
> Alan Turing is *hardly* unknown. Just unknown to the likes of you.
+ Ask 50 people on the streets of America.
+ See if you get a bite.
> > please be my guest. I still claim there were
> > hundreds, nay thousands of heroes that did more towards ending
> > the world war than ol Turnik did.
>
> You can claim what you like. You'd still be wrong.
+ You forgot the nyah nyah nyah...
> And I see you've stooped to mocking the man's name now. Not very nice,
> now is it .... Pantywank!
+ I don't know him, his name, or anything about him.
+ He is a nothing to me.
+ I mock stupid people who think they are important.
> > > > + I spent 28 years in the US Military, and am somewhat an expert
> > > > in many historical facts of war.
> > >
> > > Gee whiz. Aren't you the big expert. You never stop wittering on about
> > > your illustrious 'career' in the military, flying a desk outta
> > > Singapore or whatever the hell you did.
> >
> > + Doesn't matter what you think.
>
> Doesn't particularly matter about your glittering career in the
> military. It's over now. Move on already!
+ OK.
+ I've moved.
>
> > > Here's the thing; your career is now over. 28 years is as good as it
> > > gets.
> > >
> > > I'm 20 years as a professional in the computer industry and I'm 39
> > > years old - do the math. I've worked with the US Military on their
> > > 3-DES encrypted communications systems and had to obtain clearance for
> > > that, even though I lived in Ireland. Crypto was, and remains, one of
> > > my areas of expertise.
> >
> > + Do you have Top Secret clearance?
> > + And please..... don't even try to lie to me.
> > + We both know that you do not.
>
> Hardly, Patrick. I wasn't even enlisted, nor was I within the
> jurisdiction. Yes, I worked on US Military encryption and yes, I had to
> obtain clearance for that. I worked in the private sector ... go do the
> math.
+ What clearance?
> > > I'm somewhat of an expert in many facts of military computing and
> > > cryptography. Oh, and I'm lesbian! Just thought I'd mention that :)
> > >
> > > > Turing is a dud.
> > >
> > > LOL!!! You arrogant prick, Patrick. Turing is one of the giants of
> > > modern computing. He formed many of the current theories of AI
> > > development and of mathematical models of logic and human thinking. He
> > > is often considered the father of modern computer science.\
> >
> > + I suppose you admire Freud also?
>
> Not particularly. I more a fan of Jung, Maslow and to an extent, Adler.
> Why?
+ Maslow was interesting.
> > + How about BF Skinner?
>
> Not a big fan of Skinner, either, esp. as a lot of his work has now
> been superseded. He had a lot of interesting things to say about the
> origins of superstition, though, which brings us back to the subject in
> hand.
+ Which is why I brought his name up.
>
> > > The reason you're coming out with this nonsense is because he was gay.
> >
> > + Really?
> > + Either I had forgotten, or... I didn't know (or care.)
>
> Ah - the short-term memory thing again.
+ Yup. It really is a hassle at times.
+ But, not at all times.
+ Things are new and exciting to me every day.
>
> > > > He was a cog
> > > > in the big wheel. We were turning the crank,
> > >
> > > Sure, Patrick. Whatever you say?
> >
> > + You lie, I surely can also.
>
> I'm not lying.
+ OK, Turnlock was your hero. Good for you.
> > > Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
> > > Alan Turing.
> > > Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
> > > encryption? Alan Turing.
> > > Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
> > > (the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
> >
> > + Who was the first logistics officer to beddown F-16's in Europe?
> > + Who was the first logistics officer to manage a squadron of F-15E
> > eagles?
>
> My goodness. They had F15s and F16s in WWII? I'm impressed! The US kept
> that one secret for a long time.
+ Both were mated with nuclear weapons, on status, on alert, ready
to take off within 15 minutes.
>
> > + Does it really matter?
> > + Does this make one a hero?
>
> No, it doesn't. Not at all. However, in Turing's case, his
> contributions were gargantuan.
+ I like that word. Reminds me of that japanese monster that destroyed
Tokyo in those old movies. That guy who played Perry Mason in
the old black and white tv show was in the movie.
> > + Ol Turko doesn't compare to Edison, Bell, Marconi, Ford, or Gates.
>
> Who the hell is Turko, Pattywank?
+ Your buddy.
>
> > > ... and on it goes. Educate yourself, Patrick.
> > >
> > > > and the United States
> > > > saved the world from the likes of Hitler.
> > > > + I can provide hundreds of examples,
> > >
> > > Provide me with 'hundreds of examples' relevant to the subject (Alan
> > > Turing) and we'll talk. Anything else is just bluster.
> >
> > + I have never heard of turnig before last week.
>
> Didn't stop you from spouting lies about him, now did it?
+ Lies?
+ I merely told you he is a nothing on the list of heroes.
> > + How in the world would you expect me to provide examples
> > of why you think he is important to anyone?
>
> Because you opened your big, flappy gob about the man in the first
> place. Then when you were called on it, you ran and hid. As, indeed,
> you are now.
+ I don't know why you feel he is important.
+ What is more important, I don't care.
>
> > > > + NCR was HUGE. They had thousands and thousands of employees
> > > > here in Dayton Ohio 50 + years ago. Their HQ are still here, although
> > > > they have shrunk considerably.
> > >
> > > Indeed. And NCR was the company that made the American 'bombe', once
> > > the British had told them about it.
> >
> > + What bombe?
>
> Didn't you read the link?
+ I never read links.
+ I've found them to be long and boring, and not
applicable to what I would like to learn.
> > + I was talking about encryption machines. Enigma.
>
> As was I. The 'bombe' was the name for the Enigma decryption device,
> invented by Turing and deployed successfully by the British in
> decrypting Nazi communications.
+ All by himself?
> The same device that the British gave to the Americans who went on to
> perfect it. Actually, at NCR, they managed to make the device a lot
> faster than the British could.
>
> > > "Once the British had given the Americans the details about the bombe
> > > and its use, the US had the National Cash Register Company manufacture
> > > a great many additional bombes, which they (the US) then used to assist
> > > in the code-breaking.">
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe
> >
> > + Excellent, thank you.
> > + However, my beliefs still stand.
>
> Well, don't let the facts get in the way of your 'beliefs', after all,
> that's the Catholic way.
+ You can blame my faults on the Catholics.
+ After all, you blame your own on the Catholics.
+ I don't mind.
+ I understand you refuse to take responsibility
for your own actions. You look for a scapegoat,
and voil'a! there is one.... the RCC.
> > + You had no idea how to solve your problem.
> > + You came to us.
> > + We solved it for you.
> > + Like always.
>
> Actually, the complete reverse was true, Nice try again.
+ We weren't invaded by the Nazi's.
> BTW - what's with this "they" and "us" business?
+ Americans versus loozers....
> > > Today, I tend to associate NCR with cash registers and ASICs.
> >
> > + So do most folks.
>
> Most folks know about ASICs? Do tell .....
>
> > + But, I won't hold it against you.
> > + Turig is still an unknown toad to me.
>
> Badge of honour once again. Your knowledge of cryptography and its
> history as well as the origins of modern computing is sadly lacking.
> However, that doesn't stop you shooting your mouth off on the subject.
+ Thanks, maam. I aims ta please.
Maureen
Patrick wrote:
Ask then who Vinegar Joe Stillwell was
or Claire Chennault
Or Tooey Spatz
Or Geroge Marshall
or Skinny Wainright
or even Omar Bradley
or Hunter Liggett
or John Pershing
or Dudley Morton
or Mark Clark
You wont get much recognition on any of those names now.
--
Maureen, living "La Vie Boheme"
Meet me in Paris on a Champs-Élysées night
We could be in Rome again, 'neath the Trevi fountain light
We should be together, and maybe we just might
If you could only meet me somewhere in Europe tonight
Cherchez La Femme
AMBAN
says...
(snip)
>
>> > Who solved the German Kriegsmarine encryption system in December 1940?
>> > Alan Turing.
>> > Who invented the "Banburismus" logical system for cracking Nazi
>> > encryption? Alan Turing.
>> > Who invented and designed the first electronic codebreaking machine
>> > (the bombe) long before the Americans had any such system? Alan Turing.
>>
>> + Who was the first logistics officer to beddown F-16's in Europe?
>> + Who was the first logistics officer to manage a squadron of F-15E
>> eagles?
>
>My goodness. They had F15s and F16s in WWII? I'm impressed! The US kept
>that one secret for a long time.
ROTFLOL
>
>> + Does it really matter?
>> + Does this make one a hero?
>
>No, it doesn't. Not at all. However, in Turing's case, his
>contributions were gargantuan.
>
>> + Ol Turko doesn't compare to Edison, Bell, Marconi, Ford, or Gates.
>
>Who the hell is Turko, Pattywank?
Not sure who he is talking about or how his little list relates. They are
different occupations and Bell was born and educated in Scotland and Marconi was
Italian.
Lets play a game - make up a list any list and relate it in anyway you can.
Harry Potter, Camus, Cornelia Funke, Thursday Next, Oscar Wilde
>
>> + But, I won't hold it against you.
>> + Turig is still an unknown toad to me.
>
>Badge of honour once again. Your knowledge of cryptography and its
>history as well as the origins of modern computing is sadly lacking.
>
>However, that doesn't stop you shooting your mouth off on the subject.
>
>-- A
AMBAN
>
--
Maureen
Patrick wrote:
> Allie-cat wrote:
>
>
> > > + You had no idea how to solve your problem.
> > > + You came to us.
> > > + We solved it for you.
> > > + Like always.
> >
> > Actually, the complete reverse was true, Nice try again.
>
> + We weren't invaded by the Nazi's.
No, the US was invaded by Japan, successfully.
They took the Phillipines, then a territory of the us and your largest colony.
They took a number of your islands.
They took part of Alaska.
>
>
> > BTW - what's with this "they" and "us" business?
>
> + Americans versus loozers....
You lost the war of 1812, you entered the war as an ally of Napoleon , who lost.
You wanted Canada, which you did not get. You demanded the ending of impressment of
American Sailors, which continued a good 10 years after the end of the war.
Your atlantic fleet, after a few victories against outgunned vessels, was bottled
up in harbour.
You took second place in the southeast asia war games that ran from the sixties
into the seventies too.
Alan Ferris
>> > > You're so transparent, Patrick! Of course you'd rather it "moved on".
>> >
>> > + Since you think you NEED to continue the discussion on some
>> > unknown brit hero,
>>
>> Alan Turing is *hardly* unknown. Just unknown to the likes of you.
>
>+ Ask 50 people on the streets of America.
>+ See if you get a bite.
Most Americans think U571 is accurate history!
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
ar...@hobbiton.net
Do you really expect anyone in this NG to offer assistance to _you_ ?
ar...@hobbiton.net
>Constance wrote:
>>
>> Read history. Alan Turing's theories made the Bombe possible. It is not
>> a matter of debate. Public television periodically shows a history of
>> Blechley park and the extraordinary men and women who worked night and
>> day to decrypt german enigma transmissions. I would assume that the work
>> done at Blechley park was shared with the Americans who decrypted the
>> more difficult japanese 'Purple' cipher.
>> The history of WWII could indeed be re-written with the mass of
>> materials that have been declassified in the US and in the UK.
>> Learn. It is fascinating !
>
>+ I appreciate you trying to widen my horizons.
>the knowledge and memories I do have. I don't read nearly as
>much as I used to, and up til this week, I had never heard of
>Alan Turing.
Your memory is even worse than you think.
I told you about Turing roughly three years ago.
You mocked him then, too.
>Although this is fascinating, I pray there isn't
>a test in the morning.
ar...@hobbiton.net
>Maureen wrote:
>> > >
>> > > + NCR in Dayton Ohio was THE major participant in the efforts
>> > > to breaking the codes on the Enigma machine.
>> >
>> > I never said that Turing single-handedly did anything. I said he was
>> > 'instrumental'. It's written above. Can't you *read*?
>> >
>> > > We don't try to memorialize
>> > > loozer war non-hero's
>> > > ... like your Montgomery guy.
>> >
>> > Monty wasn't one of ours, sorry. Try British.
>> >
>> > -- A
>>
>> Bernard Law Montgomery, like it or not, was an impressive field commander.
>
>+ So was Hitler, Ghengis Kahn, Ho Chi Min....
It has been so much fun watching you wriggle and spin in your own
slime that I've stayed out of this thread until now. But since no one
else has prodded you on this post, it falls to me ...
Hitler was no kind of field commander. An inspired and inspiring
demagogue, yes. A madman, and megalomaniac, yes A field commander of
any kind -- no.
Ho Chi Minh was a political leader, not a field commander.
Perhaps what's left of your mind is grasping for the name of Nguyen
Giap. Giap was the general who ran the army for Ho. Good general,
too -- first he got rid of the French (when Viet Nam was "Indo China")
and then he wore down some other interfering foreign power ... I
dis-remember which one ...
Now, Genghis Khan (note spelling) -- you could call him an impressive
field commander and get general agreement.
One out of three, slug. Not a good start.
As to the others named below -- haven't you trumpeted your pride in
your Irish ancestry? Did you not once boast that there has been a
member of your family serving in the Merkin military since the
Revolutionary War?
Let's see what a mere Canadian with no ties to Ireland can remember.
>> But he was not one of ours.
>> John Barry, father of the United States Navy, was.
Barry -- more active and successful as a naval commander in the
Continental Navy than his flashy contemporary, John Paul Jones, but
less widely renowned. Served and fought on land when the colonies ran
out of ships. Very first naval officer enlisted for the brand new
United States Navy by President Washington after the war.
>> General Phillip Sheridan was...
Civil War cavalry general, Union Army. Protege and friend of Grant.
Did to the Shenandoah Valley what Sherman did to Georgia. Stayed in
the army after that war and slaughtered Indians on the plains.
>> Marechal Patrick McMahon, Victor of Sebastopol, was....
French Army officer during the Crimean War.
>> Sir Henry Wilson, Chief of the Imperial General Staff in WWI was.
British officer, eventually a Field Marshall -- not the most
successful of field commanders. Good staff man and military
politician, rather like Eisenhower in that regard.
>> Davy Crockett's "Irish Dozen" at the alamo were
You must know about these guys, slug -- they were in a John Wayne
movie!
>> Thomas Meagher, commander of the NY 69th in the Civil War, the Irish Brigade,
>> was.
Don't know Meagher. The 'Fighting 69th' are legendary -- roots going
back to the Revolutionary War, identity as the '69th' solidified
during WW1 when most in the ranks were from New York City _and_ of
Irish descent.
Didn't you see this movie either, slug? Starred James Cagney and Pat
O'Brien, type-cast as two Irish-Americans. O'Brien played Fr Duffy.
>> Confederate General Patrick Cleburne, of Cork, was
Don't know him.
>> Fr Duffy was
Legendary figure -- one of those guys who give the offices of priest
and chaplain a good name.
Chaplain of the Fighting 69th in WW1.
Born in Canada, by the way. Big statue of him somewhere in NYC.
>> "Wild Bill" Donovan was.
MoH winner, WW1 -- with the Fighting 69th, oddly enough.
Started the OSS in WW2, with a little help from Canadian-born Sir
William Stephenson who was running the British intelligence services
for the Western Hemisphere out of New York.
>> Che Guevara was part Irish.
You must remember Che, slug. They made a movie about him.
>> Admiral William Browne, emancipator of Argentina, was one of ours(Co Mayo)
Don't know him.
>> Admiral Charles Beresford was one of ours.
IIRC he was more a politician than a sea dog.
>+ I'm sure you feel that many of these folks are well know to someone.
And she's right.
>+ As is my Grandmother, Nellie Quaid, who was from Cork.
Never heard of her.
Patrick
> <bark...@erinet.com> wrote:
> >Constance wrote:
> >>
> >> Read history. Alan Turing's theories made the Bombe possible. It is not
> >> a matter of debate. Public television periodically shows a history of
> >> Blechley park and the extraordinary men and women who worked night and
> >> day to decrypt german enigma transmissions. I would assume that the work
> >> done at Blechley park was shared with the Americans who decrypted the
> >> more difficult japanese 'Purple' cipher.
> >> The history of WWII could indeed be re-written with the mass of
> >> materials that have been declassified in the US and in the UK.
> >> Learn. It is fascinating !
> >
> >+ I appreciate you trying to widen my horizons.
> >+ I am at a point in life where I am trying to hang onto
> >the knowledge and memories I do have. I don't read nearly as
> >much as I used to, and up til this week, I had never heard of
> >Alan Turing.
>
> Your memory is even worse than you think.
> I told you about Turing roughly three years ago.
> You mocked him then, too.
+ I've told you many times that I have a terrible short-term memory.
+ If it doesn't stay long in short term, it will never make it to
long-term.
+ I guess I'll just have to live with it.
+ Can you?
+ Turing didn't make the original cut of importance.
+ It won't make a dent this time either.
Constance
>
> + I've told you many times that I have a terrible short-term memory.
> + If it doesn't stay long in short term, it will never make it to
> long-term.
> + I guess I'll just have to live with it.
> + Can you?
> + Turing didn't make the original cut of importance.
If you admit to having terrible short and long term memory you cannot
make that call.
Perhaps you should leave it at least to those of us who do have degrees
in History.
--- Constance
Patrick
> the US was invaded by Japan, successfully.
> They took the Phillipines, then a territory of the us and your largest colony.
> They took a number of your islands.
> They took part of Alaska.
> >
> > > BTW - what's with this "they" and "us" business?
> >
> > + Americans versus loozers....
>
> You lost the war of 1812, you entered the war as an ally of Napoleon , who lost.
> You wanted Canada, which you did not get. You demanded the ending of impressment of
> American Sailors, which continued a good 10 years after the end of the war.
+ Really?
+ What I remember about the War of 1812 is that the brits burned
down the White House. and several other important buildings in Wash
DC.
You eventually went home.
> Your atlantic fleet, after a few victories against outgunned vessels, was bottled
> up in harbour.
> You took second place in the southeast asia war games that ran from the sixties
> into the seventies too.
+ We also don't win every Olympic Medal.
+ However, we do train nearly every medal winner in the US.
Patrick
Karen
slug aka poo bag and "Patdick" <PBar...@gmail.com> slimed...
> + We also don't win every Olympic Medal.
> + However, we do train nearly every medal winner in the US.
+ Your athletes train overseas?
+ Very wise.