Answers to FAQ re:Violent/Drug crime
Prznr
OFFICIAL DATA REVEAL MOST NEW YORK DRUG OFFENDERS ARE NONVIOLENT
(New York, January 7, 1999) -- Newly obtained official data confirm the
need or reform of New York's drug laws, Human Rights Watch said today.
Nearly 80 of the drug offenders who received prison sentences in 1997 had
never been
convicted of a violent felony, and almost half had never even been arrested
for a violent crime. One in four drug offenders in prison was convicted of
simple possession, primarily of minute quantities.
These and other figures prepared by the New York State Division of Criminal
Justice Services (DCJS) and the Department of Correctional Services (DCS)
-- in response to a request from Human Rights Watch -- reveal that few
convicted drug offenders are dangerous criminals.
"New York's drug laws are among the country's harshest," said Jamie Fellner,
associate counsel of Human Rights Watch. "Not only do they waste public
resources, but they also violate basic notions of justice by putting minor
nonviolent offenders behind bars." Human Rights Watch's research suggests
that most drug offenders in the criminal justice system are street-level
sellers caught in "buy and bust" operations staged by the police, addicted
individuals supporting their habit through low-level positions in the drug
trade, "mules" who carried drugs owned by someone else, and drug dealers'
girlfriends and wives.
Some supporters of New York's drug laws have argued that most drug
offenders are violent criminals. The new DCJS data contradict such claims.
That data also indicate that many of the drug offenders sentenced to
prison are first offenders. One in three had never even been previously
arrested for a drug felony, and half had never been convicted of one.
According to the DCJS analysis of the prior history of the 10,047 men and
women sentenced to prison for drug offenses in 1997:
*77.5% had no prior violent felony convictions.
*47.6% had no prior arrests for a violent felony.
*50.9% had no prior drug felony convictions.
*33.3% had no prior drug felony arrests.
*Of those who had been previously convicted of a drug felony:
*89.0% were convicted of the lowest categories of drug crimes (class C, D, E).
*31.8% had no prior felony convictions for any crime.
*17.2% had never been arrested for any felony.
*Only 9.7% had prior convictions for both drug and violent felonies.
Under laws passed a quarter of a century ago during the administration of
Governor Nelson Rockefeller, even minor drug offenders face mandatory prison
terms. Judges cannot set fair sentences tailored to the conduct and
culpability of each defendant and the danger they pose to society. The law
permits no distinction between a person who makes a one-time delivery of
drugs for a small fee and a major trafficker. And the sentences are
extreme: a person convicted of one sale of two ounces of cocaine receives
the same prison term as a murderer or rapist -- at least fifteen years to
life. Many addicts who could be helped with drug treatment are warehoused
instead in prison --usually upstate and far from their families and
communities.
Thousands of drug offenders have ended up in prison as a result of these
laws. Few are significant traffickers. According to the Department of
Correctional Services, there were 22,407 drug offenders under custody as of
September 1, 1998. Twenty-five percent of them were convicted of simple
drug possession.
Sixty percent were convicted of the three lowest felonies -- Class C, D, or E
-- which involve only minute drug amounts. For example, only a one-half
gram of cocaine is required for conviction of Class D felony possession --
and 1,242 people are in prison for that offense.
The DCS analysis also reveals that one in five of the drug offenders under
its custody -- 4,450 people -- had no prior felony convictions. Another 7,501
had only one prior conviction. That is, more than half (53.4%) of the drug
offenders in prison had one or no prior convictions.
Because of the severe and rigid sentencing scheme mandated by the drug laws,
low-level drug offenders face years in prison. According to the DCS
analysis of the sentences of the total population of drug offenders under
its custody, the average maximum sentence for first felony offenders
convicted of a Class B
felony is 87.6 months, 68.1 months for a Class C felony, 56.5 months for a
Class D felony, and 42.4 months for a Class E felony. Even if an offender
does not serve the maximum period behind bars, his or her liberty remains
conditional until the maximum period is completed.
Human Rights Watch recognizes stiff prison sentences can be appropriate for
addressing violent crime and protecting communities. But such sentences are
misguided and destructive when it comes to nonviolent drug offenders.
Indeed, as documented in "Cruel and Usual: Disproportionate Sentences for
New York Drug Offenders," a Human Rights Watch report released last year,
New York's drug laws all too frequently violate fundamental principles of
justice by yielding disproportionately harsh sentences.
Answers to FAQ re:Violent/Drug crime
Copies of the data produced by DCJS and DCS are available from Human Rights
Watch by calling 212-216-1808.
"Cruel and Usual" can be obtained from the website at
http://www.hrw.org/hrw/summaries/s.us973.html or by calling 212-290-4700.
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Sgt Walt
While those convicted of Possession and Sale of Controled Substnaces may never
have been THEMSELVES convicted of a violent crime, they are responsible for
much of the violent crime which the addicts themselves commit.
How about all of those peoplewho commite henious crimes while on Meth or
Cocaine or Crack? These people should be punished for the havoc they speap
through their selling of controled substances.
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS
Jack Fuller
Prznr wrote in message <19990108122708...@ng125.aol.com>...
><hrwat...@igc.org> wrote:
>
>OFFICIAL DATA REVEAL MOST NEW YORK DRUG OFFENDERS ARE NONVIOLENT
>
>(New York, January 7, 1999) -- Newly obtained official data confirm the
**********************
It is quite easy to keep from being ensnared by a strict criminal justice
system. In this case, don't use, sell or possess illegal drugs. Everyone
doing so is fully aware of the harsh penalties if caught. It is my
experience that such perptrators do ont believe they will be caught or if
they are, will get off lightly. Most have gotten that notion by the overly
lenient way the lower courts treat misdemeanors. Juveniles especially
believe this. If well meaning judges and prosecutors want to be more
effective let them get really creative with the parents of these youth.
Omnivore
Jack Fuller wrote in message ...
>>
>>OFFICIAL DATA REVEAL MOST NEW YORK DRUG OFFENDERS ARE NONVIOLENT
>>
>>(New York, January 7, 1999) -- Newly obtained official data confirm the
>**********************
>It is quite easy to keep from being ensnared by a strict criminal justice
>system. In this case, don't use, sell or possess illegal drugs. Everyone
>doing so is fully aware of the harsh penalties if caught. It is my
>experience that such perptrators do ont believe they will be caught or if
>they are, will get off lightly. Most have gotten that notion by the overly
>lenient way the lower courts treat misdemeanors. Juveniles especially
>believe this. If well meaning judges and prosecutors want to be more
>effective let them get really creative with the parents of these youth.
>
>
that. But there are many folks who do it. Many folks did it during
prohibition and it seems to finally be realized that such a determined
number of people that were going to do it made it to be greater problem than
a constitutional amendment was thought to solve.
Saying, "Don't break the law." is certainly easier than giving
consideration to why such tremendous numbers of people would risk the
consequence of getting caught for violation of some law or another. Most
drug users aren't even addicts - and before the addicts were addicted they
made some choice to violate that particular law.
I've wondered how many that being labeled with idea of criminal self
image went on to violate other laws that they may not have otherwise but for
disrespect for the law that was generated by that one?
Most of the folks I knew in prison were in for drugs. Even most that I
talked to that weren't in for some kind of theft mentioned some theft they
had done. (That is just "most" being more than half at least - I didn't make
no count) Wondered how much of the theft would have been done if the drugs
weren't so expensive.
Easy to say to not break the law and one won't go to jail. I didn't
violate the law I was convicted. Certainly had done some others. That might
be the assumption on the part of even the authorities that pulled that off.
But I keep hearing of folks that have a hard time getting out after being
convicted even when great evidence or proof is demonstrated that the did not
do any known crime.
Easy to say, "They all say that." when any individual says he did not do
the crime he was convicted.
--
To keep silent and act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
--
To keep silent and act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
Barbara Lightle
which is a series now appearing in the Chicago Tribuine. I tried to
post the enire article but I guess it was too long.
I personally find it very encouraging that several newspapers have
recently published several articles or series on 'wrongdoing' with our
justice system.
barb
Bru
to help.
Sgt Walt
What is the "big draw" with drugs? They mess up your mind and life and get you
into prison.
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS
Omnivore
I don't know. What has been the big draw of alcohol throughout human
history? Some folks want to get bloody sotted and some like a nice relaxing
drink. some folks think a bit of wine to be a necessity with dinner and not
to especially drink enough to get a buzz. some folks just think going
fishing or having a bar-b-que would not be right without some beer.
Alcohol was outlawed by a whole constitutional amendment, and look what
came of that.
Was it really some issue of 'what is the draw' or was it some acceptance
of human behavior that might have come to understand that some laws just
tend to oppress something that folks just aren't going to be oppressed?
As for drugs messing up minds and life: There are a lot of people that
mess up mind and life with booze. Most don't.
Some folks like to do useless things like climb mountains at the risk of
their lives. What is the draw there? It is socially acceptable even if it
draws others to risk their lives to rescue when they get in trouble. Same
with white water rafting and the like. What is that draw? Should folks be
required to explain their motives before being allowed to do it? Do folks
motives need to be explained to others satisfaction before allowed to do a
lot of things that involve some amount of risk or danger to themselves or
even some others?
Drugs are certainly a social problem. There are a lot of social problems
that folks seem to think best dealt with by passing more laws against this
and that. For some it appears that the laws amount to contributing more to
the problem than such as the drugs do in themselves.
What is the draw to wish to so much regulate human behavior? For
myself - If I chose to wreck my life, others have my permission to keep
their noses out of it. If I want to go hiking where I might get lost I would
even sign waivers that no one who does not wish need come looking for me.
And if someone does insist on sticking their nos into my affairs with
unasked and often unwanted help/interference I might feel quite justified in
taking more advantage of them than they wish.
--
To keep silent and act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
.
Sgt Walt wrote in message <19990112112645...@ng12.aol.com>...
Barbara Lightle
Omni,
What is the "big draw" with drugs? They
mess up your mind and life and get you
into prison.
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS
"What is the 'big draw' with drugs?", sgt asked.
....., The 'draw' comes quite naturally with the drugs since drugs are
addictive. This fact makes drugs the perfect vehicle to get rid of
society's undesirables...
Allow big time drug peddlers to roam free thru society; ; throw in
prosecutors who care only about winning at any cost.....and it is like
taking candy from a baby to get tax dollars for the politicans prison
industry...
barb.
DNarsh
drug "pushers" is a joke. Anyone with a satsh of drugs has no problem providing
them to folks who want them.
No advertizing campaign for drugs.
No crack houses going broke with "unsold" inventory.
If you have crack and you stand on a orner some white folks from the suburbs
will drive up, roll down the window and beg you to give them some for money or
beg you to tell them where they can get some.
As far as the advertizing goes, watch the media in various methods hype drugs,
"stars" on drugs, all kinds motion picture, atheletes, comedians all are hyped
as users. The joke is you know you are a success when you can afford a cocaine
habit. Politicians have been outed as drug users or at parties where drugs are
on the menu..
No one answered the questions posed by Dana. What's the draw for taking death
defying chances at other activities..hiking, mountain climbing, white water
running, etc. etc. alcohol, and what about the legal mind, mood altering drugs,
etc.
Please don't dismiss Barb's charges so easily.
Many movers and shakers had a lot of concern about the disadvantaged,
potentiallyrebellios folks in America and made a determination on how to
"control" them short of findwork and education for them.
If you think for one minute the phrase "There is notheing worse than a nigger
except an educated nigger" came from thin air, or the KKK alone then you have
had your head in the sand and are sleep walking through America's history. 46
percent of the names on that wall in Washington are the names of black men and
they made up 26 percent of those under fire and are not that percent of the
American population.
We need to face up to what we are doing and begin reforming it. To leave this
fight to the black people to wage alone is not honest or American. It is not
good sense either or ethical or moral.
>From: blli...@webtv.net (Barbara Lightle)
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coolkat
not working. We spend soooo much money on it, but they forget that as long
as you have people who want drugs, there will be someone out there who will
supply that demand.
Control. How is it controlled if its in the streets?
The well known drug-alcohol is harder to get than illegal drugs if you want
them. To get that legal drug you must be 21, or get someone who is willing
to contribute to a violation of that law. At a certain time stores close,
but you can drive down the street and get the illegal drugs at any time of
the night while risking your life, not only by the violence that accompanies
the black market, but risking consumption of an adultered drug.
There is more people dying from poisoning than an over dose.
I do not promote the use of drugs !!!!!
I'm simply saying that "our" way of thinking makes no sense.
Hold on, it's time for an over-haul !!!
coolkat.
DNarsh wrote in message <19990113223234...@ng149.aol.com>...
Sharon Chilson
crack, black folks buy it and use it too.
DNarsh
doors, rolling down their windows, I was refering to.
Of cource black folks use drugs as well. In my earlier days on this earth it
was the folks of color and musicians that were the market. SDeems, they
needed" something to cope with the pressures life was heaping on them.
Later these "pressures" expanded out amounst the so called middle class, guess
keeping up with the Jone's caused some folks to Jones. <grin>
Still is, unfortunately. Those damn taxes will get to you sooner or later. In
the case of the cost of the Criminal/Justice empire building and the
Prison/Industrial Complex empire, I am afraid those taxes will break the minds
of most American in the nest decade or two. Then everyone will be on crack.
<grin> or some legal substitute.
MAX
<be cool..ain't no thing)
>From: Sharon...@webtv.net (Sharon Chilson)
>
>It's not just white folks from the suburbs going into the cities to buy
>crack, black folks buy it and use it too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Barbara Lightle
are legal, but they are drugs. I can imagine the average drug bill per
resident to be $250. per month. Most of this cost is covered by
medicaid or medicare.
Then among my children's friends, it is shocking to hear how many are
now on legal anti depressants or tranquilizers.
Go down another generation to our grandchildren and the powers that be
say ritalin is the answer.
The book "Brave New World" was written in l930....It told of a world
where people were programmed to be devoid of feeling.... and there was a
pill to counteract every ailment or emotion...it does seem we are living
in this world today in many aspects.
I have often wondered about the true intend of our war on drugs. Surely
it is not to protect the citizens when the big drug king pins go free
and the little street peddler is jailed big time...The street corner
selling spot will soon be back in business as there is an endless supply
of other little peddlers who will happily fill the void.
And considering the vast public approval given to legal alcohol....as
well as the FDA's blessing for pharmaceuticals..I sometimes wonder if
the WAR ON DRUGS is not in reality a battle over who gets the
profits...
(Maybe our elected leaders are all drunks?? >grin<)
coolkat
Barbara Lightle wrote in message
<12164-36...@newsd-154.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Naaa, they just smoke pot, but don't inhale it.;)
coolkat.
coolkat
Sharon Chilson wrote in message
<2250-36...@newsd-223.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
It's not just white folks from the suburbs going into the cities to buy
crack, black folks buy it and use it too.
No way !!!!(grin).
By "black market" I didn't mean that "they" are black.;)
I coud not resist....sorry....
coolkat.
Sgt Walt
The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not create the
crime that drugs do.
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS
Sgt Walt
What you are saying is that the Government makes drugs illegal so that they
make it more desirable to the undiserables getting them therefore to get
addicted?
I don't know about this prison industry that you are taking about. Here in NY
inmate can only manufacture items for prison consumtion or for not for profit
organizations.
if it is different in your state, then get the labor unions to out law the use
of inamte labor.
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS
DNarsh
Well, guess you don't put too much stock in DUI and DV and 2nd and 3rd degree
homocides and various other social crimes commited while " under the
influence", eh, Sarge?
Are you okay?
MAX
Dana Phillips
connected with violence in many forms. DUI is also a crime and so are the
deaths cause by it. Unlike drugs possession and distribution is not normally a
crime and most who drink do not commit crime to support the habit. Both have
theit own role in crime in general.
Sgt Walt wrote:
> Omni,
> The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not create the
> crime that drugs do.
>
> Fraternally,
> Walt
> Sgt. NYSOCS
--
Dana Phillips
For the story of one family's fight against a power mad DCS worker and
other inept and corrupt people within the system.
Web Page: http://members.tripod.com/LiberalMinded/index.html
OB-LA-DI OB-LA-DA
"The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and human
stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein
JavaWoman
DNarsh wrote in message <19990115114545...@ng123.aol.com>...
>>From: sgt...@aol.com (Sgt Walt)
>
>>
>>Omni,
>>The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not create
the
>>crime that drugs do.
>>
>>Fraternally,
>>Walt
>>Sgt. NYSOCS
>>
>
Bru
it tends to make folks violent to boot it is just as dangerous!
Dana Phillips
12 inches thick now that show the correlation of violence and alcohol. Don't have
to read them though as a bottle of Two Fingers and me about two hours later is all
the proof you need. Moonshine and beer combined seemed to bring out a bad side in
me to besides giving one hell of a headache the next day.
Bru wrote:
--
Bru
into loud abusive arseholes after a few good drinks. Same folks mellow
out and turn into real pussycats after a few hits though :) I think we
outlawed the wrong drug!
Dana Phillips
anyway. Damn pot messes with perception though and it was very hard to drive stoned or
do manual labor.
Dana Phillips
know a few who get stupid on cocaine but the cost of it usually wrecks the relationship way
before the violence gets bad. I gave up booze about 13 years ago and drugs way before that.
I have that genetic predisposition to addiction and do not want to tempt fate.
I would say all drugs makes one less violent than booze but I remember what I have seen people
do on acid on occasion. This stuff is tricky though as it does different things to different
people at different times. Booze in different forms does me different. Tequila, vodka, and
Ever Clear made me get braver and pick fights. Combine fine whiskey and a few beers and I
would get emotional. Plain beer just made me sleepy. Those dark beers and special beers made
me want sex. My wife tried to keep me drinking those but I do not like the taste. Almost all
booze made me feel as if all was ok and I would do things like drive home when I should not
have. Lucky I never got caught nor had a accident.
Pot was just mellow time. I did not want to drive or do anything else for that matter. I have
never seen people fight while stoned and do not know if it can be done as most of those
tendencies seem to go away.
Bru wrote:
> Booze messes with perception and ability as well though. Still it is
> legal. Never found anyone, not even Craig who could get mean on pot,
> that's why Woodstock was so damn mellow. I tell you, we outlawed the
> wrong drug! I wonder why? Must be the alcohol industry has better
> lobbiest.
Barbara Lightle
drugs....my brother had to sometime sub putting early morning newspapers
in racks in Cincinnati. He told how the sellers merely waved at him
once they knew he was not a customer. He also said most of the
neighborhood traffic was white folks and he never saw a cop....
Wasn't Heida Fleiss a big time coke party girl who was never arrestd for
drugs? Personally, I'd like to see a business man begin taken into
custody for selling just once in my lifetime.
barb
Bru
Bru
gave a parolee in a rage a pinner once and he calmed right down and
turned himself over to the PO waiting outside.
Dana Phillips wrote:
>
> Just ask a cop what is usually combined with domestic violence calls and he will say booze. I
> know a few who get stupid on cocaine but the cost of it usually wrecks the relationship way
> before the violence gets bad. I gave up booze about 13 years ago and drugs way before that.
> I have that genetic predisposition to addiction and do not want to tempt fate.
>
> I would say all drugs makes one less violent than booze but I remember what I have seen people
> do on acid on occasion. This stuff is tricky though as it does different things to different
> people at different times. Booze in different forms does me different. Tequila, vodka, and
> Ever Clear made me get braver and pick fights. Combine fine whiskey and a few beers and I
> would get emotional. Plain beer just made me sleepy. Those dark beers and special beers made
> me want sex. My wife tried to keep me drinking those but I do not like the taste. Almost all
> booze made me feel as if all was ok and I would do things like drive home when I should not
> have. Lucky I never got caught nor had a accident.
>
> Pot was just mellow time. I did not want to drive or do anything else for that matter. I have
> never seen people fight while stoned and do not know if it can be done as most of those
> tendencies seem to go away.
>
> Bru wrote:
>
DNarsh
by?
MAX
>From: Bru <crai...@home.com>
>Booze messes with perception and ability as well though. Still it is
>legal. Never found anyone, not even Craig who could get mean on pot,
>that's why Woodstock was so damn mellow. I tell you, we outlawed the
>wrong drug! I wonder why? Must be the alcohol industry has better
>lobbiest.
>
DNarsh
>
>I never could be mean when I smoked a joint. Would have been a waste of a
>good buzz
>anyway. Damn pot messes with perception though and it was very hard to drive
>stoned or
>do manual labor.
>
Also causes folks to miss election day and/or voter registration.
Causes great disproportionate voting of candidates on the correct side of drug
issues trying to find their constituancy, <grin>
MAX
` D E M I G O D
assertion. Precisely 100% on the target, just as anticipated... By now every
reader in this NG knows you as persistent defender of fallacies of the
system, perpetuated through its own corruption. Do you think that those
"white lies" of yours are really helping to eliminate society's vices? Even
if they are politically skewed as "facts", they are aren't supporting the
REAL facts...
Just because alcohol isn't outlawed, it doesn't mean that crimes (harm)
under its influence any "better".
Very much like the other "fact" that those who convicted in court 100%
volunteered to be punished, while real "killers, child molesters, rapists",
who avoided incarceration, are actually innocent...
--
DEMIGOD
Sgt Walt wrote in message <19990115114038...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
:The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not create
Dana Phillips
DNarsh wrote:
> >From: Dana Phillips <Libera...@centuryinter.net
>
> >
> >I never could be mean when I smoked a joint. Would have been a waste of a
> >good buzz
> >anyway. Damn pot messes with perception though and it was very hard to drive
> >stoned or
> >do manual labor.
> >
>
> Also causes folks to miss election day and/or voter registration.
One issue I did not have at the front of my brain until Omnivore brought it up in
alt.thebird.hippie and one of the issues that got me involved in this ng. I saw
that I, (considered myself as a political activist), was missing out on a really
big issue that most of us ignore. With all of us having some connection to
corrections by either being in it formally, having a relative in it, living near
it, or having to pay one of the many prices for it, I decided to add it to my list
of issues. I still consider liberal politics in general and children's issues to
be my top two but there is much overlap in all of this.
>
>
> Causes great disproportionate voting of candidates on the correct side of drug
> issues trying to find their constituancy, <grin>
> MAX
>
> Helpful links re: usenet
> http://www.databasix.com/netbasics.html
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--
Sgt Walt
>Sarge, alcohol is involved with at least as many crimes as drugs and as
>it tends to make folks violent to boot it is just as dangerous!
>
Judging on the numbers of people who are in jail as a result of drugs and those
in for alcohol related incident, I knwo that you will find that statement
without foundation.
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS
"Gimme that ring, ya hairy-footed hobbit varmint! Gimme that ring
or I'll blast ya!"
--Yosemite Sam
Sgt Walt
committed by drug abusers is far more rampant than alcohol, wouldn't you say
Max?
Sgt Walt
Far more deaths result from drug abuse than dose the consumption of alcohol.
Currently the State of NY is doig a study on domestic violence based on the
mandatory reports that police must submit when they are called to a domestic
dispute. The results will be interesting.
Dana Phillips
http://www.legalize.org/global/deaths.htm
Annual deaths related to Tobacco, Alcohol and Other Drugs
Relative Drug Deaths
Country Tobacco Alcohol Hard Drugs
United States 400,000 100,000 6000
I know what impact alcohol can have as I have seen it far too up close. One of
my best friends who is several years younger than me almost lost his life to
drinking. His system became poisoned by it and to this day he lives with what
it did. He was not able to walk for many months but now can use a cane. His
heart suffered lasting damage though and he had a pacemaker installed. To see
someone three years younger than me in such shape is the true story of what
drinking can do.
Sgt Walt wrote:
--
Omnivore
--
To keep silent and act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
.
Bru wrote in message <369FD...@home.com>...
>Booze messes with perception and ability as well though. Still it is
>legal. Never found anyone, not even Craig who could get mean on pot,
>that's why Woodstock was so damn mellow. I tell you, we outlawed the
>wrong drug! I wonder why? Must be the alcohol industry has better
>lobbiest.
>
>Dana Phillips wrote:
>>
>> I never could be mean when I smoked a joint. Would have been a waste of
a good buzz
>> anyway. Damn pot messes with perception though and it was very hard to
drive stoned or
>> do manual labor.
>>
>> Bru wrote:
>>
>> > I have seen the Jeckle and Hyde thing my self when sweet fun people
turn
>> > into loud abusive arseholes after a few good drinks. Same folks mellow
>> > out and turn into real pussycats after a few hits though :) I think
we
>> > outlawed the wrong drug!
>> >
>> > Dana Phillips wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I have a stack of articles I copied when doing a paper in college
that are about
>> > > 12 inches thick now that show the correlation of violence and
alcohol. Don't have
>> > > to read them though as a bottle of Two Fingers and me about two hours
later is all
>> > > the proof you need. Moonshine and beer combined seemed to bring out
a bad side in
>> > > me to besides giving one hell of a headache the next day.
>> > >
>> > > Bru wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Sarge, alcohol is involved with at least as many crimes as drugs
and as
>> > > > it tends to make folks violent to boot it is just as dangerous!
>> > > >
>> > > > Sgt Walt wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Omni,
>> > > > > The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not
create the
>> > > > > crime that drugs do.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Fraternally,
>> > > > > Walt
>> > > > > Sgt. NYSOCS
LOVAK
are in prison strictly for possession and/or use. Their point is that they
would not be there if it were legal. For the sake of this discussion you
must only count those incarcerated for violence and/or larceny because of
drugs. That would take out a pretty big chunk.
Sgt Walt wrote in message <19990116161036...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
>>
>>Sarge, alcohol is involved with at least as many crimes as drugs and as
>>it tends to make folks violent to boot it is just as dangerous!
>>
>
>Judging on the numbers of people who are in jail as a result of drugs and
those
>in for alcohol related incident, I knwo that you will find that statement
>without foundation.
DNarsh
And the "drug" crimes you refer to are crimes caused by prohibition, not the
use of drugs in of themselves.
Legal drugs don;t cause crime so long as they are used by the patient.
But some elderly folks sell their medication at inflated prices to buy food for
themselves and that is a serious felony..
The cost of drugs due to black market.
You can imagine the cost of cigarettes and alcohol, addiction, with inflated
black market prices turning folks to petty crime to support their habit? That
has even got some COs in hot water, remember?
Wait, you shall see with cigarettes. The next wave of convicts along with the
new female crownd of convicts coming on the scene. Always growing business
potential this corrections, eh?
MAX
>From: sgt...@aol.com (Sgt Walt)
>
>Oh, I put plenty of stock in DWI (that is the term in NYS). But the crimes
>committed by drug abusers is far more rampant than alcohol, wouldn't you say
>Max?
>Fraternally,
>Walt
>Sgt. NYSOCS
>
>"Gimme that ring, ya hairy-footed hobbit varmint! Gimme that ring
>or I'll blast ya!"
> --Yosemite Sam
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sgt Walt
How can you discount those people? They are the direct cause of the major
portion of the violent crime to begin with.
Sgt Walt
Are you including the people who are killed during drug deals gone bad, or the
rubouts?
Are you including the people who are killed during a robbery by a drack head?
Also who drew up these figures? People who want to leagalize drugs. This in
and of itself makes these figures suspect.
Now if you got these figures from a study that included the factors I
mentioned...
Sgt Walt
...and they come fromt eh people who use those drugs. The people who shoot up
or smoke "crack."
Right, Legal drugs do not cause crime when they are used by people who need
them for ailments.
Drug Abuse is a mental and phsycial ailment that you do not treat by creating
more of the porblem by feeding the problem.
LOVAK
that are in strictly for use. The basis of the discussion revolves around
the premise that the drugs were legal, therefore those in prison for
strictly using drugs would not be there.
Sgt Walt wrote in message <19990117102645...@ng24.aol.com>...
>Lovak,
>How can you discount those people? They are the direct cause of the major
>portion of the violent crime to begin with.
Dana Phillips
http://www.legalize.org/global/deaths.htm
Here is one for fed stats.
http://www.fedstats.gov/key.html
Here is crime in general
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm
Characteristics of certain crimes:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm
excerpt taken from that page:
The role of alcohol in crime victimization
About 3 million violent crimes occur each year in which victims perceive the offender to have been drinking at the time of the offense. Among those victims who provided information about the offender's use of alcohol, about 35% of the victimizations involved an offender who had been drinking.
Two-thirds of victims who suffered violence by an intimate (a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend) reported that alcohol had been a factor. Among spouse victims, 3 out of 4 incidents were reported to have involved an offender who had been drinking. By contrast, an estimated 31% of stranger victimizations where the victim could determine the absence or presence of alcohol were perceived to be alcohol-related.
For about 1 in 5 violent victimizations involving perceived alcohol use by the offender, victims also reported they believed the offender to have been using drugs as well.
Also see:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ac.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/pnc95.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/htius.htm
Sgt Walt wrote:
Dana,
Are you including the people who are killed during drug deals gone bad, or the
rubouts?
Are you including the people who are killed during a robbery by a drack head?
Also who drew up these figures? People who want to leagalize drugs. This in
and of itself makes these figures suspect.
Now if you got these figures from a study that included the factors I
mentioned...
Fraternally,
Walt
Sgt. NYSOCS"Gimme that ring, ya hairy-footed hobbit varmint! Gimme that ring
or I'll blast ya!"
--Yosemite Sam
--
DNarsh
It is imoirtant to further the TRUTH in order to clear away the FALSE
perceptions that have been ingrained into our memory by so many who have greedy
agendas and no regard for the FACTS.
Just for humanity and morality and ethics we should search for and hold onto
the TRUTH even if it makes us squirm in our seats.
MAX
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>From: Dana Phillips <Libera...@centuryinter.net
>can see the real source. Check it out.
>
;http://www.legalize.org/global/deaths.htm
>
>Here is one for fed stats.
>
>http://www.fedstats.gov/key.html
>Here is crime in general
>http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm
>Characteristics of certain crimes:
>http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm
>excerpt taken from that page:
>The role of alcohol in crime victimization
>About 3 million violent crimes occur each year in which victims perceivethe
>offender to have been drinking at the time of the offense. Among thosevictims
>who provided information about the offender's use of alcohol, about35% of the
>victimizations involved an offender who had been drinking.
>Two-thirds of victims who suffered violence by an intimate (a currentor
>former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend) reported that alcohol had beena
>factor. Among spouse victims, 3 out of 4 incidents were reported to
>haveinvolved an offender who had been drinking. By contrast, an estimated
>31%of stranger victimizations where the victim could determine the absenceor
>presence of alcohol were perceived to be alcohol-related.
>For about 1 in 5 violent victimizations involving perceived alcoholuse by the
>offender, victims also reported they believed the offender tohave been using
>drugs as well.
>Also see:
;http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/htius.htm
>
>
>Sgt Walt wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Dana,
>Are you including the people who are killed during drug deals gonebad, or the
>rubouts?
>Are you including the people who are killed during a robbery by a drackhead?
>Also who drew up these figures? People who want to
>leagalizedrugs. This in
>and of itself makes these figures suspect.
>Now if you got these figures from a study that included the factorsI
>mentioned...
>Fraternally,
>Walt
>Sgt. NYSOCS
>"Gimme that ring, ya hairy-footed hobbit varmint! Gimme that ring
>or I'll blast ya!"
>Yosemite Sam
>--
>Dana Phillips
>For the story of one family's fight against a power mad DCS worker and
>other inept and corrupt people within the system.
>Web Page: http://members.tripod.com/LiberalMinded/index.html
>OB-LA-DI OB-LA-DA
>"The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe andhuman
>stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe."
>-- Albert Einstein
>
>
>--------------7A9A3CFAFA190C5D4AE174CF--
Jack Frost
Far more deaths result from drug abuse than dose the consumption of
alcohol.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Are you taking into account alcohol related auto accidents? How about
fraternity kids and alcohol poisoning during hazing.
>I'm gonna go O.D. on some MJ
Jack Frost
Omni,
The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not create
the crime that drugs do.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
WHAT???? Hey Walt, go watch a few episodes of COPS. What you will see is
police officers dealing with drunken idiots and drunken abusers.
Then think about what booze costs society in regards to police calls,
ambulance, hospitalization, liver and kidney damage,employee
absences,car crashes, insurance costs, etc, etc, etc.
Jack Frost
Drugs are one commodity that no one needs to"sell". The idea that there
are drug "pushers" is a joke. Anyone with a satsh of drugs has no
problem providing them to folks who want them.
No advertizing campaign for drugs.
No crack houses going broke with "unsold" inventory.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Couldn't agree with you more. I would also add that a study was done
showing that most drugs pose the same risk rate of addiction. 10-20% of
people who try a particular drug will become addicted to it. This
includes alcohol, cocaine, crack, marijuana, heroin etc.
Put another way, 80-90% of the people who try any given drug will never
use it again or continue to use it recreationally without becoming
addicted and without disrupting their lives or the lives of others.
I'm sorry I don't have the study to corroborate what I'm stating but I
do recall one more fact from this study.
One drug broke the mold. That is it was extremly addictive to 80-90% of
the people who tried it. They began using it at a young age and became
both physically and psychologically addicted to it. They continued using
it to the detriment of their physical health and despite repeated
warnings of the risks. What evil drug is this, you may ask? TOBACCO! And
it's legal.
The government and people in power don't want you to have all the facts.
Just THEIR facts.
As an officer with many years of experience dealing with all types of
offenders. I say decriminalize drug possesion. I didn't say legalize.
Just decriminalize. You get caught with heroin...$X amount for a fine
depending on how much you have and your ability to pay. Use the money
from the fines to provide treatment for the addicts. Taking the risk out
of the whole process would greatly reduce the price of any given drug.
The crack addict who does an 8 ball a day would no longer have to come
up with $125 to support his habit. Most likely drop the price by half if
not more. That's half as much property crime this addict would have to
commit to support his habit.
Plus all the money saved on the border patrols and at the border
checkpoints. Let the drugs come in. Let the supply increase as the
demand stays the same. Prices drop.
For those that would argue that drugs will be more widely abused I
ask....would you now go buy crack if it were decriminalized? Of course
not and niether woluld I and niether would a whole lot of people.
Somebody is making a LOT of money on the drug trade and it's not some
young black kids in Harlem. They get just a tip of the money being made.
Sorry this was so long. I get tired of listening to sheeple repeating
the pablum that the govt and media force feed us day after day.
Jack Frost
The difference between alcohol and drugs is that alcohol does not create
the crime that drugs do.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
One other thing Walt. I personally know many people who use cocaine,
marijuana, and other drugs without needing to rob anyone to get their
drugs. They have careers that pay well and they choose to use a small
portion of their discretionary income for recreational drug use. Same as
people who use alcohol in the same way. I'm not condoning this or trying
to force it on you. I'm just trying to adjust peoples thinking. I would
say that the majority of drugs shipped into this country get used n this
fashion. It's just that the media chooses to show us the addicts who are
doing crimes.
DNarsh
<snip>
>Couldn't agree with you more
For which I thank you. It does get lonely out here on the reality edge <grin>
As for the "long post" are you kidding. Now Dana on the other hand or
myself..well..?
Hard to do anything other than get elected to President or declare war of drugs
or get tuf on crime in a 10 second sound byte.
By the way when you hear the phrase "this country of ours" or " for the sake of
our children" please do a double take and try and figure out just what the hell
they are talking about?
MAX
>From: etib...@webtv.net (Jack Frost)
Helpful links re: usenet
DNarsh
>Walt wrote........
>
>Omni,
>the crime that drugs do.
Now you see what cruel and unusual punishment really is? Listening to this
dinosaur every day he is on duty. Bet he wrote this in one of his degrees in
the DOC rule book to be lectured to inmates. Ever wonder what the chow hall
would do when he struts in. Ask someone where he works what kind of reaction
this guys gets from convicts under his charge...if they still allow himaccess
to convicts.
Jeeez Sarge, when do you retire?
MAX
Dana Phillips
DNarsh wrote:
> >From: etib...@webtv.net (Jack Frost)
> <snip>
> >Couldn't agree with you more
> <snip>
>
> For which I thank you. It does get lonely out here on the reality edge <grin>
>
> As for the "long post" are you kidding. Now Dana on the other hand or
> myself..well..?
I have not had it in me as of late. I have my mind on my case too much and have
about five motions I have to do soon. Well, maybe soon I can bore you all once
again and get really wound up and let loose a real long one.
> Helpful links re: usenet
> http://www.databasix.com/netbasics.html
> WINGS of an Angel founder
> http://www.narsh.com HOMEPAGE
> http://www.narsh.com/index.html PERSONAL PAGE
> http://www.narsh.com/appr.htm DONATION PAGE
--
Omnivore
--
To keep silent and act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
.
Sgt Walt wrote in message <19990117103357...@ng24.aol.com>...
>MAx,
>...and they come fromt eh people who use those drugs. The people who shoot
up
>or smoke "crack."
>Right, Legal drugs do not cause crime when they are used by people who need
>them for ailments.
>Drug Abuse is a mental and phsycial ailment that you do not treat by
creating
>more of the porblem by feeding the problem.
Sgt Walt
Abuse is when a person becomes an addict.
Illegal acts have little to do with it although drug possession is illegal.
Sgt Walt
You have to include the cause and effect factor of grug use and sale. Drugs
are a direct cause of our
crime problem here in the USA>