Open letter to George Bush
BushWacked
Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans? Is
it for votes?
Why don't you take a look around and see what happens when religion mixes
with government. Afghanistan and Iraq for starters.
Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian and we are sick
of your religious speaches. While you were reading stories to those muslem
children last week, why didn't you tell them you believe they are going to
hell because they are not christian? Your propaganda efforts are sickening
to watch.
Do your job and keep YOUR religion out of OUR government. We don't need more
holy wars, we need more clean air and less gases contributing to global
warming. We don't care about your rich buddies in the oil business, our
planet is more important. Obviously your priorities are seriously warped.
Signed,
33 Million Americans
Give Me Freedom
<byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>Mr. Bush,
> [snip]
>Signed,
>
>33 Million Americans
Name them.
BushWacked
atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
Yes, believe it or not, they are americans too!
"Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:3c28e875...@news.escape.ca...
Give Me Freedom
<byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
>atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
Right?
>Yes, believe it or not, they are americans too!
Yes, of course they are.
groupiegirl
The "First Lady", a catholic priest, and a catholic mayor were sitting
together, espousing the greatness of Christianity, the importance of
religion and how fortunate the United States is that George Bush is
president in this time of unrest!! This is disturbing to say the least -
outrageous more the apt term. Little miss innocent school marm (professional
politician no less ambitious than Hillary Clinton)...and Rudy Guliani the
new "Man of the Year" - using the ultimate public forum to mix religion and
politics in propaganda for the religious right!
And to have the audacity to imply that we might have been in further danger
had her husband not been "elected" president instead of "someone else!"
(Yes - they really said that!)
What about the people in this country who are not Christian, Catholic or
even religious?
What a disgusting display. Didn't these people ever hear about separation of
church and state? I think this is criminal.
Laura - go preach at your local Texas church - I don't want to hear it.
gg
"BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote in message
news:7K5W7.25055$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
BushWacked
> >All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
> >atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>
> And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
>
No hatred, just tired of getting this crap jammed down our throats. America
is supposed to be a free country, not a christian dictatorship.
Give Me Freedom
<byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>
Free enough to, oh I don't know, allow people to say they have a faith
in God?
BushWacked
religious dictator.
"groupiegirl" <group...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a0aqa7$q0b$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
Leo Sgouros
The media is part of the problem by giving false prophets continuing
unending platforms with hardly any criticism of their message.
FALSE PROPHETS, is that spelled correctly.
Every one that talks about God on TV should show what He taught them.
Its easy, I can do it, and I am nobody.
Thats why I am not on TV.
HTH!
BushWacked
America
> >is supposed to be a free country, not a christian dictatorship.
>
> Free enough to, oh I don't know, allow people to say they have a faith
> in God?
No problem, but what about all the people (33 million americans) that don't
follow the christian religion? Are we somehow non-american? Should we have
to sit back while our government shoves this crap down our throats? Reminds
me of the days of slavery that was supported by the christians.
Give Me Freedom
<byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>
>"Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
>news:3c28ed0a...@news.escape.ca...
>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:15:19 GMT, "BushWacked"
>> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>>
>> >No hatred, just tired of getting this crap jammed down our throats.
>America
>> >is supposed to be a free country, not a christian dictatorship.
>>
>> Free enough to, oh I don't know, allow people to say they have a faith
>> in God?
>
>No problem, but what about all the people (33 million americans) that don't
>follow the christian religion?
33 million. I don't doubt the number, but where did you grab it from?
And those that don't believe in God, are I'm sure, free to give that
opinion without risk of jail time or fines.
>Are we somehow non-american? Should we have
>to sit back while our government shoves this crap down our throats? Reminds
>me of the days of slavery that was supported by the christians.
So you're enslaved?
groupiegirl
Religion has NO PLACE in government, fool. It is an individual freedom - it
is impeachable, in my opinion, for a U.S. president to be espousing one
particular religion publicly!! It smells of campaign contributions - if it
smells like shit - it is shit.
gg
"Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:3c28ed0a...@news.escape.ca...
Give Me Freedom
<group...@hotmail.com> gave us:
>You are obviously have difficulty grasping the writer's original point!!
>Religion has NO PLACE in government, fool. It is an individual freedom - it
>is impeachable, in my opinion, for a U.S. president to be espousing one
>particular religion publicly!! It smells of campaign contributions - if it
>smells like shit - it is shit.
>
>gg
That's great.
Is this opinion backed by the U.S. Constitution?
As for my reading of the U.S. Constitution, I interpreted the document
to state that no laws shall be made by congress instituting one form
of religion over another.
Harold McBoingBoing
"BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote in message
news:7K5W7.25055$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
And just how has Bush "shoved religion" down your throat? Is it because he
has the temerity to say the word "God" in public? Have the cops been over
lately to escort you to church? You are exactly what you accuse Bush of
being - a bigot and a moron.
>
>
>
>
Harold McBoingBoing
No, just adolescent whiners. There is no reality to the claim that any
religion is being forced on them.
>
>
gordon monohan
No, of course not. He would have no idea what it really meant anyway, maybe
he can go to africa or arabia where slavery still exists and can find out.
But he finds it really 'cool' to inject it into a totally unrelated subject
where he is just generally spewing his hatred of Americanism.
BTW, I wonder if he knows the Nazis were socialists and ecologists. I mean,
that has at least as much to do with the original subject which was pretty
limp anyway.
G.
Think1776
malcontents, you idiots would complain if we hung you with a new rope
"Harold McBoingBoing" <libs@rebims> wrote in message
news:a0asrv$aod$0...@pita.alt.net...
Docky Wocky
33 Million Americans
_________________________________-
Megalomaniac listening to the voices again...
cracked slightly
HERE, HERE !
In America, there is freedom of religion as we as freedom FROM religion.
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof "
Sadly, Nazified, jackboot-wearing Crisco-dabblers have NO RESPECT
for freedom, the Constitution, or it's Bill of Rights.
There is going to be an upswell of contempt leveled at this idiots
once the 9-11 hysteria [finally] subsides and mass realization sets
in of what they have done, and set out to do.
THEY DON'T BELONG HERE.
C_S
==================================
" We ought to make the pie higher. "
" My pan plays down an unprecedented amount of our national debt. "
" The Social Security Trust Fund is off limits. "
==================================
Lightning
news:7K5W7.25055$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
>
> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans?
Is
> it for votes?
> Signed,
>
> 33 Million Americans
One, if 33 million Americans are, in fact, non Christian, it does not mean
they agree with your letter.
Two, just by GWB making assertions of his faith you are not being made to
worship GWBs God, nor are you being forbidden from worshipping yours.
Three, if the off button on your radio or television is not working, you
need to take the device to an electronics repairman.
Four, your religiously bigoted remarks are very similar to the ones simple
minded protestants made against John F. Kennedy for being Catholic.
Five, the freedom is freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
destroy_chara...@whitehouse.gov
What passes for Christianity is about as Christian as what passes for conservatism relates to actual conservatism.
Lightning
> Reason for impeachment in my opinion. The last thing this country needs is
a
> religious dictator.
What happened in your life to make you so hostile to Christianity?
destroy_chara...@whitehouse.gov
Yeah, I hear they were also multicultural pacifists. Can you believe that some continue to believe that Hitler was not
a leftist?
destroy_chara...@whitehouse.gov
He had the temerity to claim Jesus was his secular hero.
He and his ilk support the practices and public morality of the pharisees, against which Jesus preached. To call this
ostentatious stylized and bragging public piety "Christianity" is an insult to the real thing.
>>
>>
>
>
groupiegirl
Saying "God" in public is one thing - actively promoting Christianity while
being interviewed (with a priest and a catholic governor) on national
television (which Laura Bush DID) is another. It is called sucking up to
the religious right for votes - it is called using a tragedy to make you
look holy and further your agenda - it is called mixing church and state.
(They are already campaigning for the next election - which I guess they
better in case they can't rig this one!)
It is highly unethical. It is bad form.
It is not bigotry at all to denounce this behavior. Au contraire - it is
the exact opposite - it is asking our "elected" politicians to govern for
all Americans - not just the Holy Rollers and Catholics. Hmmm....let's
see - how many Mexican-Americans are Catholic??? RIGHT! All of them!! Wee
doggy, Praise the Lord - that's a lot of votes!
I personally don't give a damn to hear Laura Bush's opinion of Christianity,
Catholicism, or anything else unless she's prepared to duly cover Hinduism,
Islam, Judaism, Deism, atheism, etc., etc. Just as hear in these newsgroups
"Keep on the topic" that is what I say to the Bushes - stick to governing -
keep your religious beliefs out of it. But I know that will not happen -
because we all know the presidency is nothing but BIG BUSINESS. And
evidently most Americans are either too brain-dead, naive, complacent or
submissive to care.
gg
"Think1776" <ra...@surfbest.net> wrote in message
news:a0auf4$vv4$1...@news.chatlink.com...
Yez
> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:01:30 GMT, "BushWacked"
> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>
>>All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics,
>>the atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>
> And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
>
> Right?
We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them, but I
sure don't want their sick, perverted, personal power robbing, joy
destroying philosophy rubbed in my chest and I don't want to pay for it
either, religion should *not* be tax exempt!! Mr. Bush, yes, I do hate
him with a passion, he and his corrupt, cruel, cold blooded, thieving
friends are evil incarnate.
[...]
'rena
--
Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President
by J. H. Hatfield, Mark Crispin Miller
http://www.amazon.com/ key 'Fortunate Son' into search box
Give Me Freedom
alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>Give Me Freedom wrote on alt.politics:
>
>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:01:30 GMT, "BushWacked"
>> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>>
>>>All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics,
>>>the atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>>
>> And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
>>
>> Right?
>
>We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them,
Glad to hear it. So, "Bushwhacker", you may wish to reconsider the
signature on the Open Letter. Make it read: Sincerely 32,999,999
Americans.
>but I
>sure don't want their sick,
please explain.
> perverted,
please explain.
> personal power robbing,
please explain
> joy
>destroying philosophy
please explain
> rubbed in my chest
please explain
>and I don't want to pay for it
>either, religion should *not* be tax exempt!!
How are you paying for them?
>Mr. Bush, yes, I do hate
>him with a passion, he and his corrupt, cruel, cold blooded, thieving
>friends are evil incarnate.
You're entitled to this opinion.
--
"We hate our politicians so much that even if they
tell us they lied, we don't believe them."
Peter Newman
King Pineapple
message news:7K5W7.25055$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
> Mr. Bush,
>
> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans?
Gee, he's never done so to ME.
Back when the Democrats were a relevant party, they prided themselves on
their religious tolerance. In fact, Lyndon Johnson considered his work in
Texas with religious rights legislation to be among his finest political
achievements. Then assholes like you hijacked the party, and now it's
history.
King Pineapple
tolerance on display in message news:a0aqa7$q0b$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
> Laura - go preach at your local Texas church - I don't want to hear it.
Uhm, your TV has "on-off" switch? Use it.
Back when you Dems were actually relevant, your party prided itself on its
religious tolerance. Now it's history. Because of jerks like you. And before
you try to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, I DO. As I
myself was a Dem for a quarter of a century (now an Independent).
Lose the Clintons and McAuliffe. That's the only way your party will
survive. But it may be too late already.
King Pineapple
message news:n26W7.25069$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
> Reason for impeachment in my opinion.
Oh, please DO. ASSURED destruction of what is left of the once proud
Democratic Party..
> The last thing this country needs is a religious dictator.
Back when you Dems were a relevant party, you prided yourselves on your
religious tolerance. Now you're history.
King Pineapple
"Docky Wocky" <mrc...@lst.net> wrote in message
news:BE7W7.36$Gj6.658@news...
> Signed,
>
> 33 Million Americans
Actually, that's about right. 33 million is just over 10 percent of the
population, which is in line with Bush's ass-kicking, er, job-approval poll
numbers.
King Pineapple
news:a0b529$7u9$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
> Saying "God" in public is one thing - actively promoting Christianity
while
> being interviewed (with a priest and a catholic governor) on national
> television (which Laura Bush DID) is another.
Last time I checked, she wasn't President. And I saw the show, and not once
did she "promote" religion in any way, shape or form.
What time do the twin suns come up on your world?
Roger R.
> All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
> atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>
>
Just because the rightwing fundamentalists are trying to hijack the title
'Christian' does not mean they speak of 160,000,000 americans. At most the
fundamentalists are about 10% of the population, and even most of them are
not despicable evangelists like Fallwell and Robertson trying to take over
the government. .
>
> "Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:3c28e875...@news.escape.ca...
> > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 20:56:35 GMT, "BushWacked"
> > <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
> >
> > >Mr. Bush,
> > > [snip]
> > >Signed,
> > >
> > >33 Million Americans
> >
> > Name them.
> >
>
>
>
Roger R.
> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:15:19 GMT, "BushWacked"
> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>
> >> >news:3c28eabe...@news.escape.ca...
> >> >All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
> >> >atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
> >>
> >>
> >
America
> >is supposed to be a free country, not a christian dictatorship.
>
> Free enough to, oh I don't know, allow people to say they have a faith
> in God?
>
>
>
don't get violent or illegal like the KKK and the sword and the convenent
people. I really am tired of having creationists take over the Texas
Education Committee and mandating that Evolution be removed from *science*
textbooks or curriculum. They may be entitled to mislead their own children
(a sad thing, really) but as the Taliban have proven, education is no place
for religion. They also run as stealth candidates, knowing they would never
win if they admitted they were running to ram creationism down the throats
of the rest of us.
If that is your purpose for running for election, than you should admit it
up front, let people vote on honest views, and accept your drubbing in the
election. Running with a hidden 'christian' agenda is flat out immoral.
Info Junkie
wrote:
>Dear "Think1776",
>
>Saying "God" in public is one thing - actively promoting Christianity while
>being interviewed (with a priest and a catholic governor) on national
>television (which Laura Bush DID) is another. It is called sucking up to
>the religious right for votes - it is called using a tragedy to make you
>look holy and further your agenda - it is called mixing church and state.
I guess Clinton stating "so help me God" when taking the Presidential oath of
office "is called mixing church and state"? Note, these last three words are
traditional, and NOT part of the oath.
Why did he sign the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act", and make speeches
about it? Would you say this "is called mixing church and state"?
>(They are already campaigning for the next election - which I guess they
>better in case they can't rig this one!)
Since he signed the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" July 12, 1995, was he
also "campaigning for the next election"?
>It is highly unethical. It is bad form.
For Bush as well as Clinton?
>It is not bigotry at all to denounce this behavior. Au contraire - it is
>the exact opposite - it is asking our "elected" politicians to govern for
>all Americans - not just the Holy Rollers and Catholics. Hmmm....let's
>see - how many Mexican-Americans are Catholic??? RIGHT! All of them!! Wee
>doggy, Praise the Lord - that's a lot of votes!
>
Not for Clinton, maybe for Gore?
>I personally don't give a damn to hear Laura Bush's opinion of Christianity,
>Catholicism, or anything else unless she's prepared to duly cover Hinduism,
>Islam, Judaism, Deism, atheism, etc., etc. Just as hear in these newsgroups
>"Keep on the topic" that is what I say to the Bushes - stick to governing -
>keep your religious beliefs out of it. But I know that will not happen -
>because we all know the presidency is nothing but BIG BUSINESS. And
>evidently most Americans are either too brain-dead, naive, complacent or
>submissive to care.
I guess when "Clinton reflects from the pulpit" of the Washington's Foundry
United Methodist Church, where the bulletin provided churchgoers read:
"Sermon: Reflections and Anticipations, by William Jefferson Clinton,", and
where it noted Clinton read "his sermon", this too "is called mixing church and
state"? http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/2001/01/09/FFXT4BO0PHC.html
Or maybe when the "U.S. Vice President and Presidential candidate Al Gore
admitted that he was a born-again Christian. During a 60 Minutes interview,
broadcast on Dec. 5, he also attacked nonbelievers--or what Gore referred to as
the "anti-religious view"-- calling them "arrogant" and "intimidating . . making
people who do believe in God feel like they're being put down and I don't like
that. I've never liked that."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/1999/still1.html
Strange, I don't recall any yelling about the Gore's or the Clinton's needing to
"keep your religious beliefs out of it" in these forums, by these same anti-Bush
hypocrites..or from any of the supposed 33 million.
groupiegirl
I think you are aptly named as the contents of your skull most likely
resembles same.
I suspect you have way too many toxins in your system to attempt an
intellectual repartee amongst the informed.
Rest in Peace, King Pineapple..May You Rot On An Untrodden Road
"King Pineapple" <saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:g69W7.17775$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
groupiegirl
"King Pineapple" <saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:q99W7.17784$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
groupiegirl
"King Pineapple" <saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E19W7.17760$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
groupiegirl
Just send a check to the New Church of the Republicans and you will be
assured a place in heaven (with 72 Virgins!!)
"Lightning" <lightn...@striking.again> wrote in message
news:Ra8W7.55679$BX4.3...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Harold McBoingBoing
> malcontents, you idiots would complain if we hung you with a new rope
I think they are afraid that there just MIGHT be a real God. Some people
live their whole lives without "knowing", because they can't understand the
true meaning of the word "faith". It would really suck if you only
discovered it at the moment you died. "Shit! I blew it!" would be a horrible
last thought. LOL
Lightning
hostile to Christianity?
groupiegirl
"Lightning" <lightn...@striking.again> wrote in message
news:fg8W7.273297$er5.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Roger R.
"Lightning" <lightn...@striking.again> wrote in message
Christianity. They aren't the same thing at all.
Lightning
news:8TbW7.1080$iM.416...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Chad Schmick
>
> "Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:3c28ed0a...@news.escape.ca...
> > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:15:19 GMT, "BushWacked"
> > <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
> >
> America
> > >is supposed to be a free country, not a christian dictatorship.
> >
> > Free enough to, oh I don't know, allow people to say they have a faith
> > in God?
>
don't
> to sit back while our government shoves this crap down our throats?
Reminds
> me of the days of slavery that was supported by the christians.
>
somehow not Americans? Did Pres. Bush ever say that? When? I must have
missed it! Why are some non-Christians so extraordinarily and intolerantly
thin-skinned when it comes to even the mere MENTION of religious faith or
Jesus Christ? Does the First Amendment not apply equally to ALL citizens
regardless of their faith or lack thereof? All Christians, even the
President, have absolute right to freely express their faith in God and
appreciation of him. It is no more "cramming it down people's throats" than
it is for an atheist to suggest to us that there is no God.
Much to the chagrin of many arch-liberals, Christians are entitled to the
inalienable right to express ourselves just like anyone else and a big part
of having freedom of speech, for anyone, is the right to express views and
ideas that others may disagree with or disapprove of. That's the way it is,
folks... If one group is allowed to put a gag order on someone else's
speech because they don't like what the other has to say, or it makes them a
little uncomfortable, you can kiss the Constitution goodbye!
DOWN WITH CENSORSHIP... FROM *ALL* SOURCES!!!!
PS: Your diatribe about Christian speech reminding you of slavery in your
post made me fall out of my chair laughing!!!
Chad Schmick
> You are obviously have difficulty grasping the writer's original point!!
> Religion has NO PLACE in government, fool. It is an individual freedom -
it
> is impeachable, in my opinion, for a U.S. president to be espousing one
> particular religion publicly!! It smells of campaign contributions - if
it
> smells like shit - it is shit.
Ah, so if you get elected to any high political office your First Amendment
rights immediately become null and void? When did this become the law of
the land? Religion of course has a place in government! It has since the
dawn of the nation... even before.
You doubt me? Look at a dollar bill... In WHOM we trust? The very first
order of business at the first ever session of the U.S. Congress was to pray
to God... for 90 minutes! Every President in U.S. history has atleast
professed to have faith in God, and have taken their oath of office with
their palm on a Bible and finished it with the words "so help me God."
Faith in God is a significant and incontrovertible aspect of American
history and life. Always has been and always will be... no matter how many
hissy-fits the ACLU or AUFSCS may have. Deal with it! No one is proposing
you should have to share the beliefs that our nation was founded upon, but
you'll have to learn to respect and/or accept them, because, my friend,
they're not going anywhere.
Yez
> On 25 Dec 2001 23:55:34 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over
> to alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>
>>Give Me Freedom wrote on alt.politics:
>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:01:30 GMT, "BushWacked"
>>> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>>>
>>>>All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics,
>>>>the atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>>>
>>> And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
>>>
>>> Right?
>>
>>We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them,
>
> Glad to hear it. So, "Bushwhacker", you may wish to reconsider the
> signature on the Open Letter. Make it read: Sincerely 32,999,999
> Americans.
BushWacked never said that we hate anyone, *you* said that.
>>but I sure don't want their sick,
>
> please explain.
Old people sending the few dollars they have off to smiling hypocrites
to buy hookers, limos, crystal cathedrals and politicians with is sick.
>> perverted,
>
> please explain.
Adults begging and cajoling some metaphor (God) for mercy is perverted.
>> personal power robbing,
>
> please explain
Vicarious atonement leeches power from humanity, why not be responsible
for our selves?
>> joy destroying philosophy
>
> please explain
Born in sin... oh please. I was born in Oklahoma, there is no such
thing as original sin, great guilt tool for controlling the weak
though.
>> rubbed in my chest
>
> please explain
Ask the Salvation Army if gays are welcome on their staff? These
Christian Soldiers are engendering hate and separation... how about the
boy scouts are gays and atheists welcomed? They are hurting others with
their prejudice and hatred, (all in the name of Jesus). Adding their
opinion, "under God" to our pledge is rubbing it in my chest, putting
"In God we Trust" on our currency is rubbing it in my chest.
>>and I don't want to pay for it either, religion should *not* be
>>tax exempt!!
>
> How are you paying for them?
If churches are not paying taxes on their income, then they are not
pulling their weight and we are supporting them and their graft. I
wonder how the heck they ever got tax exempt status in the first place?
By allowing the Scouts to rent our *prime* parkland for one dollar a
year, we are supporting them, using the school buildings that my
property tax pays for is supporting them.
[...]
'rena
NO "FAITH-BASED" CHARITY FUNDING WITH PUBLIC MONIES!
Give Me Freedom
alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>Give Me Freedom wrote on alt.politics:
>
>> On 25 Dec 2001 23:55:34 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over
>> to alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>>
>>>Give Me Freedom wrote on alt.politics:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:01:30 GMT, "BushWacked"
>>>> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>>>>
>>>>>All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics,
>>>>>the atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>>>>
>>>> And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
>>>>
>>>> Right?
>>>
>>>We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them,
>>
>> Glad to hear it. So, "Bushwhacker", you may wish to reconsider the
>> signature on the Open Letter. Make it read: Sincerely 32,999,999
>> Americans.
>
>BushWacked never said that we hate anyone, *you* said that.
I've already subtracted you from the number, hence the 32,999,999. Or
is it only 1? I don't know, he claims he signed on behalf of all
non-Christians in the United States. If you agree with his diatribe,
that's fine with me. You're entitled to that view.
>>>but I sure don't want their sick,
>>
>> please explain.
>
>Old people sending the few dollars they have off to smiling hypocrites
>to buy hookers, limos, crystal cathedrals and politicians with is sick.
Old people are duped by people who don't claim to be Christians. It's
a travesty people prey on the weak. It's not a fruit of the spirit.
>>> perverted,
>>
>> please explain.
>
>Adults begging and cajoling some metaphor (God) for mercy is perverted.
Please define "begging and cajoling".
>>> personal power robbing,
>>
>> please explain
>
>Vicarious atonement leeches power from humanity, why not be responsible
>for our selves?
I'm going to assume you meant the atonement of Christ. If you'd rather
do your own atoning, then by all means, rebuild the temple. The
muslims in Jersulam may take issue, as they have a Mosque sitting on
the spot. Raise some calves, pick the best one, and have it sacrificed
by a Levite priest.
Where's the power being leeched to?
Some would argue as well that the personal responsibility to admit
their faults and change their ways to the path of love is taking
responsibility.
>>> joy destroying philosophy
>>
>> please explain
>
>Born in sin... oh please. I was born in Oklahoma, there is no such
>thing as original sin, great guilt tool for controlling the weak
>though.
Christianity is not about guilt, and I'm really very sorry if your
exposure to church has given you the feeling that Christians feel
guilty all the time. Catholic doctrine can do that. Guilt is not a
fruit of the spirit, but joy is.
>>> rubbed in my chest
>>
>> please explain
>
>Ask the Salvation Army if gays are welcome on their staff? These
>Christian Soldiers are engendering hate and separation... how about the
>boy scouts are gays and atheists welcomed? They are hurting others with
>their prejudice and hatred, (all in the name of Jesus).
So, whereas you should not be forced (which you aren't but you claim
you are) to hear the views of believers, independent organisations
should not have this option with regards to non-believers? It works
both ways. It's called freedom of Association.
>Adding their
>opinion, "under God" to our pledge is rubbing it in my chest, putting
>"In God we Trust" on our currency is rubbing it in my chest.
That's the founding fathers for you. I can't change it for you. Maybe
you should write your congressperson and senator about this. You did
freely elect them, right?
>>>and I don't want to pay for it either, religion should *not* be
>>>tax exempt!!
>>
>> How are you paying for them?
>
>If churches are not paying taxes on their income, then they are not
>pulling their weight and we are supporting them and their graft.
The members and adherents are (should be) paying their taxes. Why
should charitiable organisations not be exempt?
>I
>wonder how the heck they ever got tax exempt status in the first place?
They are charitable organisations.
>By allowing the Scouts to rent our *prime* parkland for one dollar a
>year, we are supporting them, using the school buildings that my
>property tax pays for is supporting them.
The Scouts?
I apologize, my education in American Culture may have missed this.
Are they part of a specific church group?
> NO "FAITH-BASED" CHARITY FUNDING WITH PUBLIC MONIES!
I'll agree. The church shouldn't accept dirty money.
bbaker
>On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:15:19 GMT, "BushWacked"
><byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>
>>>>news:3c28eabe...@news.escape.ca...
>>> >All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
>>> >atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>>>
>>> And they all share your hatred of Christians and President Bush.
>>>
>>
>>is supposed to be a free country, not a christian dictatorship.
>
>Free enough to, oh I don't know, allow people to say they have a faith
>in God?
Yes.
But NOT a place where the government makes that a policy statement!
Give Me Freedom
alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>In article <3c28ed0a...@news.escape.ca>, cmdr...@excite.com (Give Me Freedom) wrote:
Agreed.
I hardly think what the First Lady says in an interview on the
national television media says constitutes policy statements.
--
the reason we have elected officials is so we
don't have to think - homer simpson
Give Me Freedom
alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>In article <3c28ed0a...@news.escape.ca>, cmdr...@excite.com (Give Me Freedom) wrote:
Agreed.
I hardly think that what the First Lady says on the National
Television Media constitutes national policy.
James Simpson
> DNC Stepford Slut "groupiegirl" <group...@hotmail.com>put her religious
> tolerance on display in message news:a0aqa7$q0b$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
So, Piney. "DNC Stepford Slut 'groupiegirl'"??? You're a real high brow
"thinker" aren't you, Piney. You accuse Dem's of being hateful for speaking
out on injustice, and yet it's you who is obviously full of hate and
intolerance. I bet you drink, smoke, and don't exercise, overweight, one
step away from a major coronary attack, so full of bitterness at Dem's,
grouping ALL Dem's together and saying ALL are immoral "jerks" who lie and
are hypocritical. Ironically, it's you who is the hypocritical liar who
behaves like a "jerk", calling others names like "DNC Stepford Slut
'groupiegirl'". "Stepford Slut"??? Jeez, what a loser you are! As Roger
said, with nasty, hateful people like you supporting Republicans, more and
more people will be steered toward the Democratic party. You're a walking
advertisement of all that's wrong with the Republican party - hate,
intolerance, hypocrisy, and lies. You accuse others of being
"intellectually lazy" for making minor typos, then you turn around and
misspell in several posts - that's called being a "hypocrite". You post
complete lies without ever providing the source (as you did with Bill
Sammon's baseless accusation "Dem's leaked the (USCCR) report") , inevitably
saying you heard it on "the radio" - yeah, right. You've been called on
your lies too many times to count, and you never respond when caught, as
though by ignoring you can make the truth go away. Well, the truth doesn't
"go away", the truth never changes, and no matter how many lies you tell, no
matter how much you try to distort the truth, you can't change the truth.
And the obvious truth seems to be that you're an extremely embittered,
hate-filled loser who's unwilling to take responsibility for his own words,
and instead wants a scapegoat on which to blame all his troubles. A very
sad case indeed.
James
BushWacked
"Kaelwyn" <kae...@bonbon.net> wrote in message
news:a0bb7k$k5nuh$1...@ID-70710.news.dfncis.de...
> "BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote...
> >
> > Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian and we are
sick
> > of your religious speaches.
> >
>
> Signed,
>
> 230 million Americans.
So everyone should be christian because the majority is?
We all should go along with Bush's proposal to pump 47 Billion dollars into
religious coffers and another 5 Billion to renovate old churches?
What happened to freedom? Sounds like we are moving backwards, that is
something christians have been doing for years. Your bible says the world is
flat and Noah fit all plant and animal life into a tiny boat while jesus was
hanging out with prostitutes and politicians (tax collectors).
No wonder Bush is a christian, he never makes sense either.
King Pineapple
message news:Xns9182A2347B7D6...@209.155.56.88...
> We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them, but I
> sure don't want their sick, perverted, personal power robbing, joy
> destroying philosophy rubbed in my chest
HOW are they doing so? Give us some examples. Bush hasn't rubbed his
religion in MY face; neither did CLinton, or Reagan, or any of them.
Back when the Democrats were a relevant party (I should know, as I WAS a
Dem, from the 1970s til just a couple of years ago) they prided themselves
on their religious tolerance. Then assholes like you hijacked the party.
That's when I left. When people like YOU leave, or change your ways, I'll be
back. Until then, your party is marginal trivia, and the public opinion
polls *prove* it to be marginal trivia. There's time to rescue the
Democratic Party-try loosening up a little. And try respecting the rights of
others to chose a spiritual path that may not be the same as your own. This
country was founded by people fleeing religious intolerance, and now YOY are
spreading a new circa 2001 breed of the same old hate.
>Mr. Bush, yes, I do hate
> him with a passion, he and his corrupt, cruel, cold blooded, thieving
> friends are evil incarnate.
Hate is BAD, you know. Lighten up. Your pure hatred of Bush is NO different
that the Republicans' hate of Bill Clinton. How does it feel to be compared
to something you profess to hate so much? Scary, isn't it?
> Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President
> by J. H. Hatfield, Mark Crispin Miller
> http://www.amazon.com/ key 'Fortunate Son' into search box
Gee, isn't this the guy who killed himself?
King Pineapple
news:Xns9182D79F053F8...@209.155.56.88...
> Old people sending the few dollars they have off to smiling hypocrites
> to buy hookers, limos, crystal cathedrals and politicians with is sick.
Proof? Or is that too much to ask?
King Pineapple
message news:a0beob$jrg$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
> Pineapple,
>
> I think you are aptly named as the contents of your skull most likely
> resembles same.
No, the name King Pineapple was used as a stage name by my late brother. I
use it as a tribute to his memory.
> I suspect you have way too many toxins in your system to attempt an
> intellectual repartee amongst the informed.
In other words, I was exactly correct in my assessment of your utter bigoted
religious intolerance, and the best you can do is insult me in return. If
you could refute what I said about the sad state of the once-proud
Democratic Party, you *would* have. The truth hurts, doesn't it?
Another Democrat bites the dust. I feel your pain. And your irrelevance.
King Pineapple
news:a0beqm$juv$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
> hee - hah - redneck Americans - love 'em er kill 'em
Actually, I have lived in New York City (3 years), Boston (7 years),
Honolulu (3 years), Miami (3 years) and Albany New York (3 years). And
attended public schools in all of the largest of those cities.
Not very bright, are you? Did you know that Algore won the high school
dropout vote?
King Pineapple
news:a0bet1$k29$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
> You are "out there" man!!
No, actually I have my feet firmly planted on planet earth. And everything I
just told you was fact. If you don't believe me, take the time to research
it. You might be surprised.
King Pineapple
"Info Junkie" <bond...@ifx.net> wrote in message
news:3c2931dd...@news.ifx.net...
Notice the stunned silence here? Sure is fun to watch...
King Pineapple
>
. This
> country was founded by people fleeing religious intolerance, and now YOY
are
> spreading a new circa 2001 breed of the same old hate.
YOU, sorry.
King Pineapple
news:bG9W7.1069$tw5.40...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
> Just because the rightwing fundamentalists are trying to hijack the title
> 'Christian' does not mean they speak of 160,000,000 americans. At most the
> fundamentalists are about 10% of the population, and even most of them are
> not despicable evangelists like Fallwell and Robertson trying to take over
> the government. .
Actually, the number is closer to 5 percent.
Roger R.
> On 26 Dec 2001 05:10:38 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over to
> alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>
> >Give Me Freedom wrote on alt.politics:
> >
> >> On 25 Dec 2001 23:55:34 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over
> >> to alt.religion.christian and gave us:
> >>
> >>>Give Me Freedom wrote on alt.politics:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:01:30 GMT, "BushWacked"
> >>>> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
> >>>>
Actually, the real problem is an evangelical attempt to expand their own
specific brand of Christianity to replace the functions that properly belong
to government. Government is an operation set up and operated by men and the
achievement of goals can be measured and adjusted for. Replacing that with
religion 'of any kind' is to replace accountability with a desire for magic.
Magic is the belief that faith produces whatever results you desire. That is
neither good religion nor is it a substitute for government and the rule of
law.
beber
slightly) wrote:
>In America, there is freedom of religion as we as freedom FROM religion.
>
>" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
>or prohibiting the free exercise thereof "
>
>Sadly, Nazified, jackboot-wearing Crisco-dabblers have NO RESPECT
>for freedom, the Constitution, or it's Bill of Rights.
I heard from a nurse who travels a lot that she overheard a serious
conversation In Oklahoma City about whether or not Jews ate babies.
That's what the left is up against.
Just give up.
>once the 9-11 hysteria [finally] subsides and mass realization sets
>in of what they have done, and set out to do.
>
>THEY DON'T BELONG HERE.
>
> C_S
>
>==================================
>
> " We ought to make the pie higher. "
>
> " My pan plays down an unprecedented amount of our national debt. "
>
> " The Social Security Trust Fund is off limits. "
>
>==================================
SnowDog
> You are obviously have difficulty grasping the writer's original point!!
> Religion has NO PLACE in government, fool. It is an individual freedom -
it
> is impeachable, in my opinion, for a U.S. president to be espousing one
> particular religion publicly!! It smells of campaign contributions - if
it
> smells like shit - it is shit.
Why would you want Dubya to be the first President to drop his religious
beliefs upon election?
--
"And out comes a man from Mars
and you try to run
but he's got a gun
and he shoots you dead
and he eats your head
then you're in the man from Mars"
- Blondie
SnowDog
> Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian
That means 75% of Americans are. Not too comforting a thought, is it?
Gene Seibel
carlos seramos
"BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote in message news:<KO5W7.25064$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com>...
> All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
> atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
>
> Yes, believe it or not, they are americans too!
>
>
> "Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:3c28e875...@news.escape.ca...
> > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 20:56:35 GMT, "BushWacked"
> > <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
> >
> > >Mr. Bush,
> > > [snip]
> > >Signed,
> > >
> > >33 Million Americans
> >
> > Name them.
> >
Seneca
> Mr. Bush,
>
> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans?
Is
> it for votes?
He believes in it. He is not shoving it "down the throats of Americans."
>
> Why don't you take a look around and see what happens when religion mixes
> with government. Afghanistan and Iraq for starters.
Yes, but Israel would be much the better place to start.
Afghanistan and Iraq are not going to get us into World War III. The major
worry in that respect is Israel.
>
> Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian and we are sick
> of your religious speaches.
I am not Christian either and his speeches are fine with me.
> While you were reading stories to those muslem
> children last week, why didn't you tell them you believe they are going to
> hell because they are not christian?
Probably because that is just another nasty little personal fantasy swimming
around in all that loose shit you have for a brain, and has nothing whatever
to do with what W believes.
>
> Do your job and keep YOUR religion out of OUR government. We don't need
more
> holy wars,
Explain this to Ariel Sharon, not George Bush.
> we need more clean air and less gases contributing to global
> warming. We don't care about your rich buddies in the oil business, our
> planet is more important. Obviously your priorities are seriously warped.
>
> Signed,
>
> 33 Million Americans
The above writer is just upset because when he hugged a tree today, the tree
didn't hug him back. This caused him so much emotional distress that he fell
ill with cerebral diarrhea. All of his comments should be considered in this
light.
Signed,
The other 257 million Americans
Seneca
> All the people in america who are not christians, the agnostics, the
> atheists, muslems, etc, etc, etc...
Horseshit. I am in that group and you are certainly not speaking for me, you
sorry sapsucker.
Seneca
Yez
My folks owned a chain of rest homes for years and my dad spent a lot
of time counseling the old ladies about sending their very sparse
savings to these religious leeches. It is interesting to note that it
was always the old ladies and never the men that got sucked in, maybe
that is because there are so many more old women that are alone.
Tammy Faye, Swaggart, The Pope... all living the life of Riley while
the elderly do without.
'rena
Sable
SnowDog wrote:
> "BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote in message
> news:7K5W7.25055$K36.7...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
>
> > Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian
>
> That means 75% of Americans are. Not too comforting a thought, is it?
please site source? And of those 75% who are christian, how many
different sects do you suppose? How many are evil Pat Robertson types?
1%?
bbaker
>"BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote
>> Mr. Bush,
>>
>> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans?
>Is it for votes?
>
>He believes in it. He is not shoving it "down the throats of Americans."
Oh? Calling for a national day of prayer isn't shoving religon?
Publically, as president of the United States, leading a group of religious
leaders in prayer - over national TV isn't shoving religion?
Offering FREE, unrestricted government TAX money to religions isn't?
Suggesting that 20% of the church collections be allowed for political
lobbying isn't?
Obviously you do not believe in reality!
>
>>
>> Why don't you take a look around and see what happens when religion mixes
>> with government. Afghanistan and Iraq for starters.
>
>Yes, but Israel would be much the better place to start.
>
>Afghanistan and Iraq are not going to get us into World War III. The major
>worry in that respect is Israel.
>
>>
>> Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian and we are sick
>> of your religious speaches.
>
>I am not Christian either and his speeches are fine with me.
>
>> While you were reading stories to those muslem
>> children last week, why didn't you tell them you believe they are going to
>> hell because they are not christian?
>
>Probably because that is just another nasty little personal fantasy swimming
>around in all that loose shit you have for a brain, and has nothing whatever
>to do with what W believes.
>
>
>>
>> Do your job and keep YOUR religion out of OUR government. We don't need
>more holy wars,
>
>Explain this to Ariel Sharon, not George Bush.
FYI Israel IS a one religion based country/government.
The Untied States is NOT!
It is the intention of the religious reich to MAKE the United States a
(christian right wing) religious based nation.
Israel was FOUNDED that way - we weren't!
The Israelites seem to have a good grasp on where, and when, politics
and religon should mix; the conservative reich wing christian fanatics DON'T!
Just like the Taliban, they want their RELIGION to control everything!
>
>
>> we need more clean air and less gases contributing to global
>> warming. We don't care about your rich buddies in the oil business, our
>> planet is more important. Obviously your priorities are seriously warped.
>>
>> Signed,
>>
>> 33 Million Americans
>
>The above writer is just upset because when he hugged a tree today, the tree
>didn't hug him back. This caused him so much emotional distress that he fell
>ill with cerebral diarrhea. All of his comments should be considered in this
>light.
The above comment just shows a clarification of the ignorance of the
respondant!
Yez
[...]
>> Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American
>> President by J. H. Hatfield, Mark Crispin Miller
>> http://www.amazon.com/ key 'Fortunate Son' into search box
>
> Gee, isn't this the guy who killed himself?
Sure... he was just starting the talk show circuit getting his book out
there and ooooops, found dead. I believe that was suicide about much as
I believe anything concerning or coming from this corrupt
administration. i.e. *not*
'rena
--
Hey Cheney, where's the 'energy study'?
Chad Schmick
>
> "Kaelwyn" <kae...@bonbon.net> wrote in message
> news:a0bb7k$k5nuh$1...@ID-70710.news.dfncis.de...
> > "BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote...
> > >
> > > Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian and we are
> sick
> > > of your religious speaches.
> > >
> > Ever hear of majority rules? It's commonly referred to as a democracy.
> >
> > Signed,
> >
> > 230 million Americans.
>
> So everyone should be christian because the majority is?
>
Of course not. Nobody ever suggested that.
> We all should go along with Bush's proposal to pump 47 Billion dollars
into
> religious coffers and another 5 Billion to renovate old churches?
>
This again? The Faith-Based Initiative funding is not for "religious
coffers" at all. It is to offer equal access to funds for providing public
services to religious oriented charities who generally provide these
services more efficiently and more effectively than the government usually
does... Nobody is saying you need to go with it. You are more than
entitled to disagree with the proposition. If a majority agrees with your
position on FBI's they will surely disappear, if not they'll go into
effect. It's called democracy.
> What happened to freedom? Sounds like we are moving backwards, that is
> something christians have been doing for years. Your bible says the world
is
> flat and Noah fit all plant and animal life into a tiny boat while jesus
was
> hanging out with prostitutes and politicians (tax collectors).
>
> No wonder Bush is a christian, he never makes sense either.
*Sigh* I wonder whether it's even worth it to talk to people like you.
Your delusion is so thick and solid I doubt anyone could ever cut through
it. Freedom is doing as well as ever. Your ignorance of the Bible is
frankly stunning. You are clearly so set in your narrow, bigoted
anti-Christian, anti-Bush ways you'll never break free of your intolerance.
Just try dropping your paranoia for an hour or so... Consider the
possibility for a moment that just maybe President Bush is a decent man
doing the best he can to be a good president and lead his country well, and
that Christians might generally be good people who are not out to get you or
crush your freedom. I think you'll be a lot happier if you shed some of
your prejudices (or even all of them.)
Sable
picking on Christians, boo hoo.
Well, its not christians, its born again fundamentalist jerks like Bush that ARE
THE PROBLEM!
Info Junkie
"snip"
>>> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans?
>>Is it for votes?
>>
>>He believes in it. He is not shoving it "down the throats of Americans."
>
>Oh? Calling for a national day of prayer isn't shoving religon?
>Publically, as president of the United States, leading a group of religious
>leaders in prayer - over national TV isn't shoving religion?
Let's see...do you believe Clinton wasn't "shoving religon...down the throats of
Americans" in 1998?
"NOW, THEREFORE, I, WILLIAM J. CLINTON, President of the United States of
America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 1998, as a National Day of Prayer....
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-ninth day of April,
in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and ninety-eight, and of the
Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-second."
(http://www.ceai.org/prayer03.html)
Why weren't you yelling then?
>Offering FREE, unrestricted government TAX money to religions isn't?
>Suggesting that 20% of the church collections be allowed for political
>lobbying isn't?
>
Try reading what the proposal is, not what you misinterpret it to mean, unless
of course, you wish to re-define what "IS" is.
>Obviously you do not believe in reality!
>
You apparently prefer hyperbolye, not facts.
>
"snip"
>FYI Israel IS a one religion based country/government.
>The Untied States is NOT!
>
Which is why Bush isn't "shoving religon...down the throats of Americans",
and no amotunt of emotional hyperbole will change that fact.
>It is the intention of the religious reich to MAKE the United States a
>(christian right wing) religious based nation.
>
Or so you percieve...without factual evidence to back such an assertion..
"snip"
>Just like the Taliban, they want their RELIGION to control everything!
>
If you're if fact, uh, *representative* of the so-called "33 Americans", you'll
continue to remain a minority...and in a state of delusion.
Info Junkie
Shall we play "follow the leader"? The last "body count" of people associated
with Bill Clinton, that "mysteriously" died is 4...do you wish to "travel" this
nonsensical path? Why weren't you talking about "ooooops, found dead", or
a "corrupt administration" when Clinton was President?
Info Junkie
>Shall we play "follow the leader"? The last "body count" of people associated
>with Bill Clinton, that "mysteriously" died is 4.
Typo, This should've been 41 (yep...forty-one)
bbaker
>
>"BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote in message
>news:UNeW7.25110$K36.8...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
>>
>> "Kaelwyn" <kae...@bonbon.net> wrote in message
>> news:a0bb7k$k5nuh$1...@ID-70710.news.dfncis.de...
>> > "BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote...
>> > >
>> > > Look at the statistics, 25% of Americans are NOT christian and we are
>> sick
>> > > of your religious speaches.
>> > >
>> > Ever hear of majority rules? It's commonly referred to as a democracy.
>> >
>> > Signed,
>> >
>> > 230 million Americans.
>>
>> So everyone should be christian because the majority is?
>>
>
>Of course not. Nobody ever suggested that.
>
>> We all should go along with Bush's proposal to pump 47 Billion dollars
>into
>> religious coffers and another 5 Billion to renovate old churches?
>>
>
>This again? The Faith-Based Initiative funding is not for "religious
>coffers" at all.
Bull Shit!
The original offer contained NO safeguards on keeping tabs on how the money
would be spent. After much criticism about this particular part of the plan,
the administration finally TALKED about the possibility of safeguards.
Then, the religious reich (who were greedily looking forward to the gift)
complained that there were government "hooks" being added to the proposal ..
these "hooks" being accountability for the money, so organizations would use
it for the purpose intended!
They wanted it free and clear, Bush wanted to give it to them free and clear!
It is to offer equal access to funds for providing public
>services to religious oriented charities who generally provide these
>services more efficiently and more effectively than the government usually
>does...
Do you have any evidence to support that claim (understanding that NO
religious organization has the VOLUME of needy the government has, and (AFAIK)
the religious organizations depend on volunteers - not governmnet payed
employees.
Nobody is saying you need to go with it. You are more than
>entitled to disagree with the proposition. If a majority agrees with your
>position on FBI's they will surely disappear, if not they'll go into
>effect. It's called democracy.
and if the Constitution allows it!
Government supporting religion, which this is, is UN constitutional!
>
>> What happened to freedom? Sounds like we are moving backwards, that is
>> something christians have been doing for years. Your bible says the world
>is
>> flat and Noah fit all plant and animal life into a tiny boat while jesus
>was
>> hanging out with prostitutes and politicians (tax collectors).
>>
>> No wonder Bush is a christian, he never makes sense either.
>
>*Sigh* I wonder whether it's even worth it to talk to people like you.
>Your delusion is so thick and solid I doubt anyone could ever cut through
>it.
Not with the bull shit you wield.
Freedom is doing as well as ever. Your ignorance of the Bible is
>frankly stunning. You are clearly so set in your narrow, bigoted
>anti-Christian, anti-Bush ways you'll never break free of your intolerance.
>Just try dropping your paranoia for an hour or so... Consider the
>possibility for a moment that just maybe President Bush is a decent man
>doing the best he can to be a good president and lead his country well, and
>that Christians might generally be good people who are not out to get you or
>crush your freedom. I think you'll be a lot happier if you shed some of
>your prejudices (or even all of them.)
How about considering the possiblity that ANY extremist political/religious
person is a danger to the country? G.W. is not only a right wing republican,
he is also a right wing Christian.
He is NOT out to do what's best for the country - he's out to make the country
right wing christian republican!
BTW ... of all the BIG promises he bellowed about during the campaign, FBI was
NEVER mentioned.
To bring it up was his FIRST major ploy when in office - while dealing with
Social Security, drug costs, and other PROMISED items has YET to be dealt
with!
Chad Schmick
"bbaker" <bba...@aol.net> wrote in message
news:TprW7.3873$7p6....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> In article <DOqW7.311610$W8.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Seneca" <not...@here.net> wrote:
> >"BushWacked" <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> wrote
> >> Mr. Bush,
> >>
> >> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of
Americans?
> >Is it for votes?
> >
> >He believes in it. He is not shoving it "down the throats of Americans."
>
> Oh? Calling for a national day of prayer isn't shoving religon?
NO!! Did he draft an executive order forcing any Americans to pray?
> Publically, as president of the United States, leading a group of
religious
> leaders in prayer - over national TV isn't shoving religion?
Once again, NO! Get a life already! Our nation had just suffered the
single greatest tragedy in it's history. People were shaken. The image of
the President joining with spiritual leaders of several faiths seeking God's
face in a time of national crisis was a source of comfort for most Americans
(regardless of religion.) You just have a major bug up your ass about
Christianity for some reason or another and cannot stand the fact that some
people actually derive comfort and peace of mind from honoring God and
petitioning His guidance.
> Offering FREE, unrestricted government TAX money to religions isn't?
> Suggesting that 20% of the church collections be allowed for political
> lobbying isn't?
>
> Obviously you do not believe in reality!
Like you I suppose... 20% of church collections for political lobbying??
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Where do you come up with this stuff? Religious faith
has always been indelibly woven into the fabric of American society, since
before the nation was even established. The vast majority of Americans
still like it that way. Especially now after 9/11. Get used to it. It's
not going to change. You don't have to believe in God if you don't want to,
but try having a little courtesy for those of us who do.
> >>
> >> Do your job and keep YOUR religion out of OUR government. We don't need
> >more holy wars,
> >
> >Explain this to Ariel Sharon, not George Bush.
>
> FYI Israel IS a one religion based country/government.
> The Untied States is NOT!
>
> It is the intention of the religious reich to MAKE the United States a
> (christian right wing) religious based nation.
>
Religious reich... Sheesh! GROW UP!!! This comparing any socio-political
group you dislike to the Nazi's is tired, old, dishonest, absurd and
annoying! Go to the local library and study up on what the Holocaust and
the Third Reich was REALLY all about and see how grossly asinine your
comparison of Christian conservativism to Nazism truly is! By the way it os
not Christian's intention to MAKE the U.S.A. a religiously based nation,
because it already is and has always been one.
> Israel was FOUNDED that way - we weren't!
> The Israelites seem to have a good grasp on where, and when, politics
> and religon should mix; the conservative reich wing christian fanatics
DON'T!
> Just like the Taliban, they want their RELIGION to control everything!
>
UGH! Now Christians are the the Taliban?! What happened to the Nazi's?
Why not compare us to the Vikings, the Assyrians, Genghis Khan's Mongols, or
even the legion of demons while you're at it? It's getting really, really,
really old! Hell, I'll just come out and say it... we conservative
Christians are actually the true face of evil incarnate. There? Are you
happy now?
bbaker
>On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:36:51 GMT, bba...@aol.net (bbaker) wrote:
>
>"snip"
>
>>>> Why do you insist on shoving your religion down the throats of Americans?
>>>Is it for votes?
>>>
>>>He believes in it. He is not shoving it "down the throats of Americans."
>>
>>Oh? Calling for a national day of prayer isn't shoving religon?
>>Publically, as president of the United States, leading a group of religious
>>leaders in prayer - over national TV isn't shoving religion?
>
>Let's see...do you believe Clinton wasn't "shoving religon...down the throats
> of
>Americans" in 1998?
>
>"NOW, THEREFORE, I, WILLIAM J. CLINTON, President of the United States of
>America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 1998, as a National Day of Prayer....
>
>IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-ninth day of April,
>in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and ninety-eight, and of the
>Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and
> twenty-second."
>(http://www.ceai.org/prayer03.html)
>
>Why weren't you yelling then?
I was!
>
>>Offering FREE, unrestricted government TAX money to religions isn't?
>>Suggesting that 20% of the church collections be allowed for political
>>lobbying isn't?
>>
>Try reading what the proposal is, not what you misinterpret it to mean, unless
>of course, you wish to re-define what "IS" is.
I read the press report .... and that's what it said.
Your denial of reality doesnt change that!
>
>>Obviously you do not believe in reality!
>>
>You apparently prefer hyperbolye, not facts.
>>
>"snip"
>
>>FYI Israel IS a one religion based country/government.
>>The Untied States is NOT!
>>
>Which is why Bush isn't "shoving religon...down the throats of Americans",
>and no amotunt of emotional hyperbole will change that fact.
No amount of your denial and blindness will change reality!
>
>>It is the intention of the religious reich to MAKE the United States a
>>(christian right wing) religious based nation.
>>
>Or so you percieve...without factual evidence to back such an assertion..
Watch Roberton for a while!
Watch Falwell for a while!
Watch D. James Kennedy for a while!
Watch the creationists trying to shove biblical fairy tales into the
classrooms calling it science!
Look at the history of RELIGOUS groups lobbying tohave God Bless America made
out "National Motto" - In God We Trust on our money - One Nation "Under God"
added to the Pledge of Allegiance!
The facts are there ... as is your obvious, and intentional, blindness.
>
>"snip"
>
>>Just like the Taliban, they want their RELIGION to control everything!
>>
>If you're if fact, uh, *representative* of the so-called "33 Americans", you'll
>continue to remain a minority...and in a state of delusion.
I do not "represent" them.
Whether a minority or not, this nation is constitutionally a RELIGIOUSLY
NEUTRAL nation - NOT a "christian fundamentalist" nation!
The delusion is yours.
Etherman
> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:22:38 GMT, "BushWacked"
> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
> >No problem, but what about all the people (33 million americans)
that don't
> >follow the christian religion?
>
> 33 million. I don't doubt the number, but where did you grab it
from?
> And those that don't believe in God, are I'm sure, free to give that
> opinion without risk of jail time or fines.
I don't know about other states, but here in Massachusetts blasphemy
is illegal.
http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/272%2D36.htm
--
Etherman
AA # pi
EAC Director of Ritual Satanic Abuse Operations
AMTCode(v2): [Poster][TÆ][A5][Lx][Sx][Bx][FD][P-][CC]
Kaelwyn
>
> > And those that don't believe in God, are I'm sure, free to give that
> > opinion without risk of jail time or fines.
>
> I don't know about other states, but here in Massachusetts blasphemy
> is illegal.
>
> http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/272%2D36.htm
>
Etherman
"Chad Schmick" <csch...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:a0bmgt$b26$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> SHEESH!!! Did anybody at any time ever suggest that non-Christians
were
> somehow not Americans?
Vice-President George Bush did.
http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html
Etherman
> On 25 Dec 2001 23:55:34 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over to
> alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>
> Glad to hear it. So, "Bushwhacker", you may wish to reconsider the
> signature on the Open Letter. Make it read: Sincerely 32,999,999
> Americans.
>
> >but I
> >sure don't want their sick,
>
> please explain.
The God of the Bible has, on numerous occassions, ordered the murder
of babies, genocide, and war after war. He says that homosexuality is
an abomination that should be dealt with by killing homosexuals. He
promises that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as savior will
spend eternity in Hell. The mere refusal to bow down in worship to
him means an eternity of vile torture.
> > perverted,
>
> please explain.
According to God's law a rape victim can be forced to marry the
rapist. God is pro-slavery. God think's it's just to punish children
for the sins of the father. God allows Satan to torture Job in order
to win a bet.
> > personal power robbing,
>
> please explain
Anyone who doesn't submit to God's will gets a free vacation for
eternity to the super-tropical nation of Gehenna.
> > joy
> >destroying philosophy
>
> please explain
Just about anything that can be fun is prohibited. God cares deeply
about our sex lives.
> > rubbed in my chest
>
> please explain
Did you miss the Christmas season?
> >and I don't want to pay for it
> >either, religion should *not* be tax exempt!!
>
> How are you paying for them?
Churches are exempt from property taxes. The rest of us have to pay
their burden.
--
Etherman
AA # pi
EAC Director of Ritual Satanic Abuse Operations
AMTCode(v2): [Poster][TĘ][A5][Lx][Sx][Bx][FD][P-][CC]
Yez
[...]
>> Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>Sure... he was just starting the talk show circuit getting his
>>book out there and ooooops, found dead. I believe that was suicide
>>about much as I believe anything concerning or coming from this
>>corrupt administration. i.e. *not*
>>
> Shall we play "follow the leader"? The last "body count" of people
> associated with Bill Clinton, that "mysteriously" died is 4...do
> you wish to "travel" this nonsensical path? Why weren't you
> talking about "ooooops, found dead", or a "corrupt administration"
> when Clinton was President?
What does Bill Clinton have to do with this thread, hint *nothing* You
people crack me up. The title of this thread is "Open Letter To George
Bush" Not open letter to Bill Clinton. Try to keep up, we have a new
whipping boy now.
'rena
--
Info Junkie
"snip"
>>>
>>>Oh? Calling for a national day of prayer isn't shoving religon?
>>>Publically, as president of the United States, leading a group of religious
>>>leaders in prayer - over national TV isn't shoving religion?
>>
>>Let's see...do you believe Clinton wasn't "shoving religon...down the throats
>> of Americans" in 1998?
>>
>>"NOW, THEREFORE, I, WILLIAM J. CLINTON, President of the United States of
>>America, do hereby proclaim May 7, 1998, as a National Day of Prayer....
>>
>>IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-ninth day of April,
>>in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and ninety-eight, and of the
>>Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and
>> twenty-second." (http://www.ceai.org/prayer03.html)
>>
>>Why weren't you yelling then?
>
>I was!
>
Then the evidence should have accompanied your claim, "I was!"
>>
>>>Offering FREE, unrestricted government TAX money to religions isn't?
>>>Suggesting that 20% of the church collections be allowed for political
>>>lobbying isn't?
>>>
>>Try reading what the proposal is, not what you misinterpret it to mean, unless
>>of course, you wish to re-define what "IS" is.
>
>I read the press report .... and that's what it said.
>Your denial of reality doesnt change that!
>
Feel free to provide the "press report" URL. I've not seen it in these threads.
The one that I've read appears to be quite different.
"snip"
>>Which is why Bush isn't "shoving religon...down the throats of Americans",
>>and no amotunt of emotional hyperbole will change that fact.
>
>No amount of your denial and blindness will change reality!
>
YOUR reality? Provide your evidence and we'll see.
>
>>
>>>It is the intention of the religious reich to MAKE the United States a
>>>(christian right wing) religious based nation.
>>>
>>Or so you percieve...without factual evidence to back such an assertion..
>
>Watch Roberton for a while!
>Watch Falwell for a while!
>Watch D. James Kennedy for a while!
The "religious right" have whatever their agenda they may wish. Placing ALL of
those that have a belief in a Supreme Being, while being conservative in their
political beliefs do not wish to impose any religion on anyone else.
Why would you, who clearly disagree with those you note above, wish to
watch them at all? I don't ever watch "for a while", or at all. People that
are weak-minded may watch or even be convinced of what they say over
a period of time. Why watch it?
>Watch the creationists trying to shove biblical fairy tales into the
>classrooms calling it science!
Yet, but do we have ALL of the FACTS of science, you know, the ones that
absolutely, conclusively disprove these as "fairy tales", or just your disbelief
in them? While science may be taught in schools as a hypothesis,
based on inconclusive evidence, one may also apply the same criteria to
bibical stories. Science is starting to find facts that actual back those
"biblical fairy tales", and are calling it "evidence of history".
I don't want to turn these threads into a biblical vs science topic. So I'll use
but three examples:
1. "There are two currently popular theories of human evolution 1) a single
recent appearance of modern humans and 2) the multiregional model, which states
that modern humans evolved simultaneously on different continents. Molecular
biology destroys the multiregional model (12-22, 27-32). In addition, even the
fossil evidence does not support the multiregional model (33). Instead, ALL the
data SUPPORTS the BIBLICAL VIEW that humanity arose in one geographical locale."
(emphasis mine)
(http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b47d7b94f92.htm)
2. Sodom and Gommorah were once "dismissed" as a possiblity. Now that Sodom and
Gommorrah have been dicovered, "(t)hese Bible stories were handed down by word
of mouth from generation to generation before they were written down, and there
seems to be a great deal in this one."
(http://www.antipas.org/news/news_2000/middle_east_2000/sodom_gomorrah.html)
3. As you say, "biblical fairy stories". Yet, "The Ebla tablets are important
because they includes the names of cities and people that appear in the Old
Testament, and therefore provide evidence for the historical acuracy of the
Bible." (http://www.digonsite.com/drdig/neareast/8.html)
>Look at the history of RELIGOUS groups lobbying tohave God Bless America made
>out "National Motto" - In God We Trust on our money - One Nation "Under God"
>added to the Pledge of Allegiance!
>
They, like you, are free to lobby all they want. What is a motto?
Motto: 'a short expression of a guiding principle' (http://www.m-w.com)
It is a "guiding principle" to unite. Is anyone forcing you to accept it?
The phrase "In God We Trust" was first added to US currency by Congress
in the Act of Arpil 22, 1864.' (http://www.ustreas.gov/opc/opc0011.html)
"The phrase 'under God' was added to the pledge by a Congressional act approved
on June 14, 1954."
(http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=105_cong_documents&docid=f:sd013.105.pdf)
Both of the above ocurred before Bush became President, wouldn't you agree?
>The facts are there ... as is your obvious, and intentional, blindness.
>
I provided the "facts". Emotional hyperbole is not condusive to your argument
against Bush. What "facts" have you provided to the contrary wrt Bush?
>
"snip"
>
>Whether a minority or not, this nation is constitutionally a RELIGIOUSLY
>NEUTRAL nation - NOT a "christian fundamentalist" nation!
>
Then provide evidence, as a US citizen, residing in the US, that you've been
arrested, tried and convicted of NOT following a "christian fundamentalist"
belief. Or any other religious belief. Otherwise, you're "tilting at windmills".
Info Junkie
>
>"Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
>news:3c291932...@news.escape.ca...
>> On 25 Dec 2001 23:55:34 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over to
>> alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>> >We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them,
>>
>> Glad to hear it. So, "Bushwhacker", you may wish to reconsider the
>> signature on the Open Letter. Make it read: Sincerely 32,999,999
>> Americans.
>>
>> >but I
>> >sure don't want their sick,
>>
>> please explain.
>
>The God of the Bible has, on numerous occassions, ordered the murder
>of babies, genocide, and war after war. He says that homosexuality is
>an abomination that should be dealt with by killing homosexuals. He
>promises that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as savior will
>spend eternity in Hell. The mere refusal to bow down in worship to
>him means an eternity of vile torture.
>
"It's good to be the King". Know anyone who has a RIGHT to make the rules
BETTER than the Creator of all things?
Info Junkie
>Info Junkie wrote on alt.politics:
>
>[...]
>
>>> Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>>Sure... he was just starting the talk show circuit getting his
>>>book out there and ooooops, found dead. I believe that was suicide
>>>about much as I believe anything concerning or coming from this
>>>corrupt administration. i.e. *not*
>>>
>> Shall we play "follow the leader"? The last "body count" of people
>> associated with Bill Clinton, that "mysteriously" died is 4...do
>> you wish to "travel" this nonsensical path? Why weren't you
>> talking about "ooooops, found dead", or a "corrupt administration"
>> when Clinton was President?
>
>What does Bill Clinton have to do with this thread, hint *nothing* You
>people crack me up. The title of this thread is "Open Letter To George
>Bush" Not open letter to Bill Clinton. Try to keep up, we have a new
>whipping boy now.
True, but I'm amazed at how quite these same anti-Bush crowd is when they were
previously defending he previous "whipping boy". I see them as hypocrites.
Roger R.
>
> "groupiegirl" <group...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a0ar3f$qrp$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
> > You are obviously have difficulty grasping the writer's original point!!
> > Religion has NO PLACE in government, fool. It is an individual
freedom -
> it
> > is impeachable, in my opinion, for a U.S. president to be espousing one
> > particular religion publicly!! It smells of campaign contributions - if
> it
> > smells like shit - it is shit.
>
> Ah, so if you get elected to any high political office your First
Amendment
> rights immediately become null and void? When did this become the law of
> the land? Religion of course has a place in government! It has since the
> dawn of the nation... even before.
Anyone who goes to work for the government at any level gives up some first
amendment rights. If you are a federal employee you have no right to
criticize the President while on the job, and if you are in the military the
job is 24 hours a day. That is a Courts Martial offense. Likewise you have
no right to espouse a particular religion or religious organization. A
policeman in our area was fired because he refused to remove a cross that he
wore on his uniform.
It was his espousal of religion which got King James II removed as King by
the Parlaiment in 1788 and replaced by William and Mary - who had to accept
their subordination to the Parlaiment. [William needed to be King of england
in order to get English support in the war between the Netherlands and
France. Mary was daughter of King James II & VII.] The US constitutional
separation of church and state comes from that English experience.
>
> You doubt me? Look at a dollar bill... In WHOM we trust? The very first
> order of business at the first ever session of the U.S. Congress was to
pray
> to God... for 90 minutes! Every President in U.S. history has atleast
> professed to have faith in God, and have taken their oath of office with
> their palm on a Bible and finished it with the words "so help me God."
Which is, of course, a failure of the system of government. Religion is a
private and personal thing, and should not be encouraged or discouraged by
government. Government is represented by its employees. Whenever they
encourage or discourage any religion it is flat wrong.
>
> Faith in God is a significant and incontrovertible aspect of American
> history and life. Always has been and always will be... no matter how
many
> hissy-fits the ACLU or AUFSCS may have. Deal with it! No one is
proposing
> you should have to share the beliefs that our nation was founded upon, but
> you'll have to learn to respect and/or accept them, because, my friend,
> they're not going anywhere.
>
>
But they do NOT belong in government! Our nation was ALSO founded on a
strict separation of Church and state. History supports the fact that when
the state encourages religion, it inevitably leads to a situation like the
Taliban.
Roger R.
"King Pineapple" <saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DEiW7.18435$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> DNC Demwit "groupiegirl" <group...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a0beqm$juv$1...@grendel.conectiv.net...
>
> > hee - hah - redneck Americans - love 'em er kill 'em
>
> Actually, I have lived in New York City (3 years), Boston (7 years),
> Honolulu (3 years), Miami (3 years) and Albany New York (3 years). And
> attended public schools in all of the largest of those cities.
>
They were quite tolerant. I'm sure you should have been run out of each city
within a month or so.
Roger R.
to stand up to the racists policies of Bob Jones University, while the good
'Christian' people of Sante Fe, Texas have not bothered to apologize to the
Jewish children in the High School who were harassed for not switching to
Southern Baptist. The idiot Pat Robertson [who, with Jerry Fallwell blamed
9-11 on tolerance of gays and lesbians] actually had enough support that he
tried to run for President.
In order to be a Christian these same people say you must believe in magic.
Sorry. Water does not become wine, men do not walk on water, and either the
virgin birth is a lie concocted by early Christians to attract members [My
personal bet, but both are possible] or it was the greatest scam a wife has
ever pulled on a cuckolded husband. Oh, yeah, and the Bible is absolute
Truth as written in history, science and religion. [Inerrancy] Really? The
irritating evangelists push the King James Bible as inerrant, while the more
logical and rational scholars tend to say that the inerrancy applies to the
original writing which has [fortunately] been lost.
Oh, and by the way, are Mormons Christian? Might as well be. They demand the
same adherence to magic beliefs.
In case you haven't guessed, I rather follow the retired Episcopal Bishop
Spong. He makes a great deal more sense out of Christianity.
The Buddhists are much more believable, reasonable, and acceptable, as the
rapid increase in Buddhist membership in the US attests.
Lightning
news:mXtW7.39552$5W5.15...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
>
> The God of the Bible has, on numerous occasions, ordered the murder
> of babies,
Citation, please.
> genocide,
Citation, please.
> and war after war.
Citation, please.
> He says that homosexuality is
> an abomination that should be dealt with by killing homosexuals.
Citation, please.
> He
> promises that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as savior will
> spend eternity in Hell.
Citation, please.
> The mere refusal to bow down in worship to
> him means an eternity of vile torture.
Citation, please.
> According to God's law a rape victim can be forced to marry the
> rapist.
Citation, please.
> God is pro-slavery.
Citation, please.
> God thinks it's just to punish children
> for the sins of the father.
Citation, please.
> God allows Satan to torture Job in order
> to win a bet.
No. God allowed Satan to test the faith of his faithful servant to prove
the power of faith. This one I have happened to have read more than once.
Sorry. Judging by your blatantly provocative mischaracterization of the
story, I have trouble believing any of your other "examples" will be more
accurate.
[snip]
> Churches are exempt from property taxes. The rest of us have to pay
> their burden.
What burden? Churches still have to pay for their water (and in most cases
sewer) hookups and their electricity and other utilities and amenities.
Lightning
news:R3xW7.1122$XO4.66...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Anyone who goes to work for the government at any level gives up some
first
> amendment rights.
No, they do not.
> If you are a federal employee you have no right to
> criticize the President while on the job
You most certainly do. It happens all the time.
> and if you are in the military the
> job is 24 hours a day.
Yes, this is correct. Servicemen and women do give up their rights and have
to abide by the Code of Military Justice, which they make clear when you
join. I remember.
Give Me Freedom
>
>"Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
>news:3c291932...@news.escape.ca...
>> On 25 Dec 2001 23:55:34 GMT, Yez <yez...@newsguy.com> came over to
>> alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>> >We don't hate all Christians, in fact I don't "hate" any of them,
>>
>> Glad to hear it. So, "Bushwhacker", you may wish to reconsider the
>> signature on the Open Letter. Make it read: Sincerely 32,999,999
>> Americans.
>>
>> >but I
>> >sure don't want their sick,
>>
>> please explain.
>
>The God of the Bible has, on numerous occassions, ordered the murder
>of babies, genocide, and war after war. He says that homosexuality is
>an abomination that should be dealt with by killing homosexuals.
Can you back up these claims, or are you parroting? I'm willing to
discuss these issues and bring my perspective, but unless you've
studied them, you won't get much out of it.
> He
>promises that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as savior will
>spend eternity in Hell. The mere refusal to bow down in worship to
>him
Everyone will worship him, eventually.
Phillipians 2:9-11*
Because of that obedience, God lifted him [Jesus Christ] so high and
honoured him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created
beings in heaven and on earth -- even those long ago dead and buried
-- will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in
praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honour of God the
Father.
> means an eternity of vile torture.
Please present the biblical evidence that hell will be a torturous
ordeal? Dante's view is decidedly unbiblical.
II Thessalonians 1:8-9*
Those who refuse to know God and refuse to obey the Message will pay
for what they've done. Eteranl exile from the presence of the Master
and his splendid power is their sentence.
>> > perverted,
>>
>> please explain.
>
>According to God's law a rape victim can be forced to marry the
>rapist.
Have you ever attempted any serious study to try to understand why
something like that may be in the old covenant laws? Hint: Sexual
Purity
It no longer applies under the new covenant.
Hebrews 8:13*
By coming up with a new plan plan, a new covenant between God and his
people, God put the old plan on the shelf. And there it stays,
gathering dust.
> God is pro-slavery. God think's it's just to punish children
>for the sins of the father.
Really?
Ezekiel 18:20**
The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished
for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the
child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own
goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.
> God allows Satan to torture Job in order
>to win a bet.
Over simplification always gives the wrong conclusion. Job ended up
winning.
Job 42:16**
Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his
children and grandchildren. 17 Then he died, an old man who had lived
a long, good life.
>> > personal power robbing,
>>
>> please explain
>
>Anyone who doesn't submit to God's will gets a free vacation for
>eternity to the super-tropical nation of Gehenna.
God's will is that none should suffer. Is that what they aren't
submitting to?
>> > joy
>> >destroying philosophy
>>
>> please explain
>
>Just about anything that can be fun is prohibited. God cares deeply
>about our sex lives.
You don't believe the message of the gospel because it won't let you
sleep with anything that moves. I understand.
>> > rubbed in my chest
>>
>> please explain
>
>Did you miss the Christmas season?
I also noticed "happy holidays", "may the holiday season bring you
happiness", and many other non-christian messages. You are free to
ignore the holiday and work on Christmas Day. I also celebrated
Hannukah with some friends, and they didn't seem to mind the Christmas
holidays.
>> >and I don't want to pay for it
>> >either, religion should *not* be tax exempt!!
>>
>> How are you paying for them?
>
>Churches are exempt from property taxes. The rest of us have to pay
>their burden.
Churches still have to pay for their utilities like everyone else.
They are also charitable organisations, and you to may donate to a
church and redeem the tax exemption.
Tim
*New Testament references from "The Message" by Eugene H. Peterson
**Old Testament references from the New Living Translation.
Give Me Freedom
came over to alt.religion.christian and gave us:
>
>"Give Me Freedom" <cmdr...@excite.com> wrote in message
>news:3c28ee76...@news.escape.ca...
>> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:22:38 GMT, "BushWacked"
>> <byeby...@pennyrocket.com> gave us:
>> >No problem, but what about all the people (33 million americans)
>that don't
>> >follow the christian religion?
>>
>> 33 million. I don't doubt the number, but where did you grab it
>from?
>> And those that don't believe in God, are I'm sure, free to give that
>> opinion without risk of jail time or fines.
>
>I don't know about other states, but here in Massachusetts blasphemy
>is illegal.
>
>http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/272%2D36.htm
Wow.
Just one (1) page up...
This is NOT the official version of the Massachusetts General Laws
(MGL). While reasonable efforts have been made to assure the accuracy
of the data provided, do not rely on this information without first
checking an official edition of the MGL. If you are in need of legal
advice or counsel, consult a lawyer.
I doubt anyone would actually be imprisoned for this.
--
the reason we have elected officials is so we
don't have to think - homer simpson
Yez
I have a feeling that you just see what you want to. There were a *lot*
of us that howled, hooted and protested about "plan Columbia", "NAFTA",
"Fast Track" and other *important* issues. Because we think some
consensual spootz on a blue dress is a non issue does not make anyone a
hypocrite.
Chad Schmick
>
> "Chad Schmick" <csch...@starpower.net> wrote in message
> news:a0bmgt$b26$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > SHEESH!!! Did anybody at any time ever suggest that non-Christians
> were
> > somehow not Americans?
>
> Vice-President George Bush did.
>
> http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html
>
I would have to condemn these statements. However, it should be noted that
he doesn't suggest that atheists not be granted equal rights, just that he
is not personally fond of them. If he really said this I'm amazed it didn't
get a lot more publicity.
Chad Schmick
> > Ah, so if you get elected to any high political office your First
> Amendment
> > rights immediately become null and void? When did this become the law
of
> > the land? Religion of course has a place in government! It has since
the
> > dawn of the nation... even before.
>
> Anyone who goes to work for the government at any level gives up some
first
> amendment rights. If you are a federal employee you have no right to
> criticize the President while on the job, and if you are in the military
the
> job is 24 hours a day. That is a Courts Martial offense.
I was in the military and worked in civil service. A government employee
can criticize the President any time he wants. A military servicemember
cannot disparage the President, atleast certainly not while in uniform, but
can criticize his actions or policies. We very, very often did during the
Clinton administration let me tell you!
>Likewise you have
> no right to espouse a particular religion or religious organization. A
> policeman in our area was fired because he refused to remove a cross that
he
> wore on his uniform.
While it's usually not be appropriate to put any non-uniform items on an
official uniform (be they religious or secular in nature) that doesn't mean
a police officer cannot express his/her faith in other ways, and if so it's
a direct violation of his/her rights.
>
> It was his espousal of religion which got King James II removed as King by
> the Parlaiment in 1788 and replaced by William and Mary - who had to
accept
> their subordination to the Parlaiment. [William needed to be King of
england
> in order to get English support in the war between the Netherlands and
> France. Mary was daughter of King James II & VII.] The US constitutional
> separation of church and state comes from that English experience.
>
Interesting tidbit of history about King James II there... Where exactly
does this "separation of church and state" appear in the U.S. Constitution?
I've read the entire document and have not found that phrase in it anywhere.
What the 1st Amendment does say- nothing more, nothing less- is "Congress
shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, *nor*
prohibitting the free excercize thereof." Everyone, public officials
included, are guaranteed NO PROHIBITION of the free excercize of faith. The
founders simply wanted to ensure that no one denomination recieved any
special recognition or political power. They wanted no official "Church of
America" like in England to impede the rights of other churches, but freedom
of all citizens belonging to any church to worship as they choose (or not at
all).
None of this indicates that ALL expressions of religious faith should be
eliminated from public discourse. Far from it when you examine the lives of
our founders. Almost all were deeply religious men who expressed their
beliefs openly, eloquently and frequently, in public and private capacities.
> >
> > You doubt me? Look at a dollar bill... In WHOM we trust? The very
first
> > order of business at the first ever session of the U.S. Congress was to
> pray
> > to God... for 90 minutes! Every President in U.S. history has atleast
> > professed to have faith in God, and have taken their oath of office with
> > their palm on a Bible and finished it with the words "so help me God."
>
> Which is, of course, a failure of the system of government. Religion is a
> private and personal thing, and should not be encouraged or discouraged by
> government. Government is represented by its employees. Whenever they
> encourage or discourage any religion it is flat wrong.
>
Religion is of course a personal thing but not something to be silenced or
censored. The President, or anybody in government, has the absolute right
to speak openly about his faith if he wants. As long as participation in
religious activities is not compulsory. A federal employee wishing another
"Merry Christmas" is perfectly within their rights and in no way violates
the other's rights. No one is forcing the other employee to wish a Merry
Christmas back. If the Attourney General wants to have a prayer meeting in
his office that's his right, as long as he doesn't require subordinates to
join in or discriminate against those who don't.
Too many assume the Constitution somehow guarantees people the right to
never be exposed in any way to religious expressions or images. Not true.
Every American is entitled to express his/her faith in any way they see fit
and everyone else is entitled to ignore them if they don't agree.
> >
> > Faith in God is a significant and incontrovertible aspect of American
> > history and life. Always has been and always will be... no matter how
> many
> > hissy-fits the ACLU or AUFSCS may have. Deal with it! No one is
> proposing
> > you should have to share the beliefs that our nation was founded upon,
but
> > you'll have to learn to respect and/or accept them, because, my friend,
> > they're not going anywhere.
> >
> >
> But they do NOT belong in government! Our nation was ALSO founded on a
> strict separation of Church and state. History supports the fact that when
> the state encourages religion, it inevitably leads to a situation like the
> Taliban.
Regarding "separation of church and state", see above. History supports no
such thing. When a specific religion and it's tenets are *forced* on the
citizens and noncompliance with it's statutes are punished by the state,
yes, things get ugly... America's government has never been even remotely
similar to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan or any other such theocracy. No
comparison whatsoever. There never will be. What instead I see is the
gradual erosion of the freedom of American citizens to freely, voluntarily
express their own beliefs without being threatened or censored by teachers,
administrators, bureaucrats, ACLU attorneys, etc.
If you think having a devout and vocal Christian in the White House who
isn't afraid to publicly state his reliance on faith in God will lead to a
situation even remotely like the Taliban you are clearly deluded. No
liberties will ever be removed by such a thing, certainly not to the point
of women being required to cover themselves head to toe at all times, not
being allowed to work at a job, go to school, walk outdoors without a male
escort or see a doctor!!
Look at our nation's history. Christians have occupied the Presidency, the
Congress, the Supreme Court and vast numbers of other government offices for
over 200 years. Religion was far more prevalent in government and the
public sector for much of that time until about 1961. No theocracies, no
Inquisitions, no Taliban-like restrictions of liberty ever occurred.
Chad Schmick
> to stand up to the racists policies of Bob Jones University, while the
good
> 'Christian' people of Sante Fe, Texas have not bothered to apologize to
the
> Jewish children in the High School who were harassed for not switching to
> Southern Baptist. The idiot Pat Robertson [who, with Jerry Fallwell blamed
> 9-11 on tolerance of gays and lesbians] actually had enough support that
he
> tried to run for President.
I know many Christians who condemned the racism of Bob Jones University, I'm
not familiar with the Santa Fe situation, but I would certainly condemn
religious harrassment anywhere, as would about any decent person. Robertson
and Falwell's statements indeed did make me cringe, but they do not
constitute blaming gays and lesbians for the 9/11 attacks. What Falwell
said was our increasingly permissive and anti-God, anti-faith culture may
have contributed to God removing His hand of protection from America
allowing the attacks to occur (an assertion I roundly reject.)
>
> In order to be a Christian these same people say you must believe in
magic.
> Sorry. Water does not become wine, men do not walk on water, and either
the
> virgin birth is a lie concocted by early Christians to attract members [My
> personal bet, but both are possible] or it was the greatest scam a wife
has
> ever pulled on a cuckolded husband. Oh, yeah, and the Bible is absolute
> Truth as written in history, science and religion. [Inerrancy] Really? The
> irritating evangelists push the King James Bible as inerrant, while the
more
> logical and rational scholars tend to say that the inerrancy applies to
the
> original writing which has [fortunately] been lost.
>
There's a big difference between magic and miracles... Water does become
wine when the Creator of the Universe allows it to. When the Son of the
Living God decides to walk on the surface of the sea, He does. If the God
who breathed life into the nostrils of every living being descends onto a
virgin to conceive a child, His Son, it happens. When you consider a God
who created everything that is from nothing at all by the mere power of His
will, you realize He can make anything happen. "With God all things are
possible". As for the inerrancy of the King James Bible, I read the NIV
myself. The translation may not be totally flawless, but after countless
comparisons to the Greek and Hebrew texts by numerous scholars we can safely
say the translations are accurate enough that the basic intent of the author
is generally fully intact.
> Oh, and by the way, are Mormons Christian? Might as well be. They demand
the
> same adherence to magic beliefs.
>
I can't speak intelligently about Mormons. I know little about them. I do
know many of their doctrines are supposedly inconsistent with the Bible.
> In case you haven't guessed, I rather follow the retired Episcopal Bishop
> Spong. He makes a great deal more sense out of Christianity.
>
Rev. Spong doesn't believe in miracles or the Immaculate Conception? Does
he even believe Christ is the Son of God or anything the Gospels say? If
not, how does he consider himself to be Episcopalian, much less Christian?
> The Buddhists are much more believable, reasonable, and acceptable, as the
> rapid increase in Buddhist membership in the US attests.
OK. Your entitled to that opinion, and I am entitled to disagree.